Politics Foreign MiddleEast Iraq - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/5/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30298 Activity:very high
5/19    The US winning hearts and minds in Iraq:
        http://tinyurl.com/yvnu8      (Newsday/AP)
        \_ Couldn't it have been anti-coalition forces holding a wedding party
           at a foreign fighters' safe house?
           \_ Pick any random group of 40 Iraqis and at least one of them will
              probably advocate the violent ouster of the US, but does that
              make it OK to kill the whole wedding party?
              \_ Yes.  Guilt by association.
           \_ Iraqis are terrorists.
              \- a. I am outraged over the outrage.
                 b. Mistakes were made/You have to break some eggs.
                 c. They may have been manufacturing aspirin!
                 d. At least we didnt sodmomize and humiliate them.
        \_ Stop deleting this.
        \_ This is tragic.  And it's also another reason to not shoot a gun in
           the air to celbrate.
           \_ Didn't the exact same thing happen in Afghanistan several months
              \_ Yes.  Shouldn't people have figured out that firing guns
                 into the air is a bad idea when your country is being occupied
                 by a foreign army? -geordan
                 \_ It would be nice if some people in this country would figure
                    this out as well.
                 \_ Yeah, but you've got dumb yokels firing guns into the air
                    to celebrate, and dumb yokels killing an entire wedding
                    party.  There's plenty of blame to share.
                    \- what would be your reaction if the say LAPD or say
                       philadelphia PD "rained down gunfire" on a house
                       from where they saw some shooting into the air?
                       \_ Wow, that's some of the most twisted logic I've
                          seen out of you, psb.  There's nothing similar
                          at all between those two situations, and the one
                          in Iraq.  Cool.
                          \_ E_TOOSHORT
                       i'm wondering if the same people making the dumb yokel
                       comment also get bent out of shape over ruby ridge
                       and waco. --psb
        \_ These kind of stuff will not happen in the US because we
           have laws. It happened in Iraq because there are no laws
           governing what the US military can do. So what if we bombed
           your wedding? Tough luck. The worst that can happen is we
           offer an apology after a year long investigation. The truth
           is, there are no justice when your country is occupied by
           someone else. The only justice you'll get is when you drive
           out the invading forces one way or the other. But we don't
           care, by then we would've gotten all the oil we wanted. The
           moral of the story? Don't be the weak guy. The bully is
           always right. Although I do wish sometimes the police would
           take the same attitude toward those fuckers in Oakland and
           East Palo Alto. Just nuke their fucking house and the city
           will be a better place.
           \_ oil?  please show me some evidence that the U.S. is going to
              get enought oil revenue to pay off the >100B we've spent on
              \_ the deal is, the war is paid for by taxpayers, and the oil
                 revenue goes to Bush's friends.
        \_ hmm a wedding party with 2 million dinars, sat com equipment,
           and foreign passports in a safehouse.  Yea...
           Was the same reporter in Jenin?
           \_ Why does the US keep lying?  Who are they trying to fool?
              \_ The US.
           \_ Isn't 2M dinars like $1000 USD? Foreign passports? Imagine
              that, on a town bordering another nation during a wedding
              celebration where out of town relatives are invited.
              \_ About $1400.  Yeah.  Which was probably part of the wedding
              \_ No, see, the administration spends all taxpayers money, and
                 they as individuals (more accurately their friends and
                 campaign contributors) reap the benefits.
2004/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30295 Activity:nil
5/19    All leftist half truths and lies on a single page for easy talking
        points reference.  Here's Dowd for your reading 'pleasure':
2004/5/19 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30291 Activity:very high
5/19    Did anyone else listen to the Senate hearings this morning?  Any
        major gaffes?  The only one I heard (in about 15 minutes of
        listening) was a North Carolina Senator refer to the Blackwater mercs
        who were killed and mutilated as "unarmed civilians" who needed the
        army's protection.  No one corrected her.
        \_ What about the near continuous conflating of the Iraq war with
           the war on terror?
           \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ Truth is lie repeated agina and again.
           \_ Because the one is a subset of the other.
              \_ In Bizarro-world, yes.
                 \_ No YOU'RE the dooty-head!

                 \_ Bizarro Murphy: Did you try ****ing him in the ***hole?
                 \_ Bizarro Murphy: Did you try ****ing him in the ***?
                    Bizzaro Debbie: Yeah.
                    Quinn: Twice
                    Bizarro Murphy: That usually works.
2004/5/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30282 Activity:nil
5/18    And the shit keeps hitting the fan.  Intel Seargent Samuel
        Provance alleges cover-up at Abu-Ghraib
        http://tinyurl.com/2w2ts (ABC News link)
2004/5/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30267 Activity:nil
5/17    Why aren't left-wingers and right-wingers making a big deal of the
        sarin gas find?
        Blix said this was not indicative of a WMD stockpile and he points
        out he identified 16 empty sarin shells while weapons inspector.
        Moreover, Kimitt said that he thought the insurgents DIDN'T EVEN
        KNOW they had a chemical weapons shell in their IED.
        Bush is afraid if he plays this up, he'll never find another sarin
        shell again, and people will play up that it was all about a WMD
        \_ I don't know, doesn't that make this even more creepy?  Where
           did they get the shell if there's no stockpile?  Perhaps it
           wasn't really sarin, but the instead one of the insurgents just
           farted in the shell?
           \_ Blix said it was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump
              and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.
              However, it was definitely a chemical weapons shell, just
              like what Blix found while he was WMD.  It had two components
              which were to mix during delivery to make the sarin gas.
        \_ Didn't you just answer your own question?  It's not a big deal
           because it's left-over from the Iran-Iraq war and since nobody knows
           where all the old rounds are it's not a stockpile.  It's Garbage
           of Mass Destruction.
2004/5/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30266 Activity:high
5/17    So, motd liberal pundits, why the uncanny silence about the Sarin gas
        in Iraq?  Was this staged by Bushco as an election year ploy?
        \_ Wasn't it just months ago that all you freepers were saying that
           it was never about the WMDs? Sheesh!! Get it straight. Which one
           is it? The WMDs? The al Queda links?
           \_ It was ... a lot of reasons ... they were given in Bush's address,
              in some order.  You do have room in that brainy head of yours for
              more than one, right?
           \_ Good dodge!  *You* were saying that no WMD meant there was no
              justification.  Now that we have the second WMD attack in 4 weeks
              *you* need to justify your reasons for leaving a butcher in
              control of Iraq.
              \_ Oh, nobody's getting butchered now that Saadam's out of power.
                 Well, nobody but 700 or so American's and thousands more
                 civilians. I'm saying that when the WMD were never found you
                 freepers conveniently changed the reason for going to war.
        \_ Which part of "left over from the Iraq-Iran War" part of the
           story didn't you get?
              \_ You want to invade on the basis of one sarin gas shell?
                 \_ Oh ho, now it's not NO WMDS IN IRAQ!, it's NOT ENOUGH WMDS
                    IN IRAQ!  You have to admit though, that last line doesn't
                    sound as good when you chant it at a peace rally.
                    \_ Nobody chanted "no wmd!" at peace rallies, you stupid
                       \_ trool!
                       \_ Of course they did, dummyhead.  I was at several of
                          the ones in SF.  They sure as hell did chant such
                          things and put it on their signs and painted it on
                          their bare sagging breasts.
              \_ we thought the WMDs were there because they were manufactured
                 by American companies and we knew exactly what they were-
                 except as it turns out they were all destroyed.  Why don't
                 you actually read the news for once, conservative stooge?
                 you aren't doing yourself a favor by parroting the deceptions
                 of BushCo- you are only hurting yourself.
                 \_ Jesus H Christ, what orifice did this come out of?
                    American made WMDs?  We knew exactly where they were?
                    What solar system are you from?
                 \_ Kofi, Kerry, Clinton, Albright, and everyone else thought
                    they were there in bulk and that it was an imminent danger.
                    We should shit can all these conservative stooges.
        \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/17/international/middleeast/17POWE.html
           Powell admits intelligence was a load of shit.
           \_ FALSE PREMISES!
        \_ Your cowardly lickspittle President cannot save himself with one
           sarin gas shell, lackey.
           \- gee, maybe the us should invade japan to save it. --psb
              \_ Um, Partha, did you miss the bulletin?  The US owns japan.
              \_ Partha, Japan is already a US satellite state, and has been
                 since 1945.
           \_ hehe if you were a conservative stooge you'd be screaming about
              Kerry's war criminal record and how GWB may have just saved us
              all, since where there's smoke there's fire.  But you're a
              liberal so you spout their talking points instead.  Can you
              think for yourself for once?
2004/5/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30252 Activity:high
5/17    smoking gun? (sarin found in iraq)
        \_ Left over from Iran-Iraq war?  Next you'll want to invade Vietnam
           for violating the anti-Mine treaty.
           \_ Wow, if only the CIA read the motd, the government could
              know all this too!
2004/5/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30249 Activity:high
5/16    Head of US appointed Iraqi Governing Council dead in car bomb attack:
        \_ it's bad, but it's a rotating position.
           fyi, the car exploded at a checkpoint into the Green Zone
2004/5/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30243 Activity:insanely high
5/15    Prison abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan is part of a Pentagon operation
        (Copper Green) authorized by Rumsfeld. An article by Seymour M. Hersh.
        \_ Thank God someone is taking terrorism seriously and understands you
           can't treat these psychotics with mittens and expect to get
           anything from them.  A society unwilling to defend itself doesn't
           deserve to survive and history has shown it won't.  I suppose OP
           thinks if we just change our foreign policy to whatever the Islamic
           fascists want then they'd just leave us alone.  Let's start with
           the forced conversion of all Westerners to Islam.  They've done it
           before and are still living in the past.  OBL's "speeches" still
           whine about Muslim losses from 700 years ago.  Go look up the term
           "wakf".  I know you wont so I'll explain:  "Wakf" is the very alive
           Islamic concept that any land *ever* held by Islam is always
           Islamic no matter what has happened since.  They publicly state
           they intend to retake all "wakf" land (which includes most of
           Spain, btw, think about that in relation to recent events there) and
                \_ the Spain bombings were because of Spain's occupation
                   of a tiny sliver of Morocco, I don't know why this
                   doesn't get reported more.  I don't think it was really
                   about Iraq at all.
           beyond.  They don't make any secret of their plans to keep fighting
           and killing Westerners until there aren't any.  They've been
           fighting this war for hundreds of years and aren't going to stop
           because you knuckled under or bribed them.
           \_ too bad the folks at http://dictionary.com don't share your deep
              understanding of the Arabic language and Islamic law:
           \_ 1) stop cutting and pasting the same dumbass patronizing post.
              2) go look up the word "wakf" yourself; you have no idea what
                 you're talking about.
           \_ http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/trust/23.php
              \_ Dictionaries are nice, but sometimes they're lacking context.
                 Quoting an Al Jazeerah opinion piece (csua.org/u/7by),
                 "They [hard core Hamas] consider it a foreign implantation
                 in Palestine, which in Islamic doctrine is a Muslim 'wakf'."
                 So it is in fact possible to place an entire "nation" under
                 the wakf designation.  Is Spain considered a wakf?  There
                 are some wacky people out there, so who knows.
                 \_ This sounds suspiciously like La Raza talking about Alta
                    \_ Like I said, there are wacky people out there.  Just
                       because the concept is silly doesn't mean there aren't
                       people who will kill for it.
                 \_ Not Spain, but bin Laden is against the independence of
                    East Timor, on the grounds that it would mean the loss of
                    Muslim land.  (csua.org/u/7bz)  Is there a bin Laden
                    doctrine that says once Muslim, always Muslim?  The man
                    hasn't chosen to enlighten us yet.  Do you think he'll
                    stop with Palestine and East Timor?
                    \_ So has Deerborn, MI become "Muslim land" yet?
                    \_ Is there anyone still out there who doesn't think
                       Al Qaeda and UBL are utterly evil and need to be
                       \_ I don't support capiral punishment, so I can't
                          advocate their execution.  That's the same type of
                          thinking they have about us.  Nevertheless, I
                          wouldn't list a finger to save their lives.
        \_"Sy Hersh is the closest thing American journalism has to a
           terrorist." -Richard Perle
           \_ "He has weapons of mass destruction. The lesser risk is in
               pre-emption. We've got to stop wishing away the problem."
              -Richard Perle
        \_ Interrogate the terrosists with cushy pillows, tea
           and crumpets.  That will work.
           \_ Nooo not the comfy chair!  -John
           \_ it's pretty far-fetched to call most of the stuff going on
              "interrogation techniques."
              \_ That's the thing, I don't really mind if they tortue
                 terrorist to get info.  What bugs me about this case is
                 there was no purpose.  It was just brutality for
                 brutality's sake.
                  \_ How do you know?
                     \_ He doesn't.  He says what he's told to feel.  The rest
                        of the claim is these guys were being shown photos of
                        themselves in humiliating sexual situations so they'd
                        break from the threat of having those photos shown to
                        their family and friends.  I trust the CIA to know how
                        to interrogate someone more than I trust some random
                        fuck motd idiot to know anything about it.
                        \_ woah! let me get this straight.  you believe that
                           in spite of the fact that the cia, your bush
                           administration(i can only assume you're a republican)
                           the army and the soldiers involved have all said that
                           the humiliation was just rogue soldiers being
                           perverse assholes that you believe that they
                           are all lying and that the CIA in their infinite
                           wisdom *ordered* this stuff to happen?  and you
                           fucks say it's *liberals* who have too much
                           blind faith in government! incredible.
                        \_ could you help me out with my talking points here?
                           I'm a bit confused.  Are these incidents just
                           soldiers having a bit of fun, like fraternity
                           hazing, and the top brass had no knowledge of what
                           was going on, or are they sophisticated
                           interrogation techniques ordered by the CIA?
                           I missed my bulletin from Rush this morning.  -tom
                        \_ The Israelis, who are experts at this sort of thing,
                           say that sexual torture does not work
        \_ Stupid American move. Long term interrogation works well for
           extracting good infomation from good sources. By choosing wisely,
           you get plausible denyability (people disappear every day...) and
           keep the moral high ground. You try to mass produce this type of
           interrogation on large groups you get huge noise to signal, lose the
           denyability factor, and your formerly secret policy (torture IS
           swell) get publicized. This topic used to be the grist of free lefty
           alternative weeklies. Not anymore. Hey where did my high horse go?
           \_ I think it went looking for your soapbox and your sense of moral
              outrage, but hey, good points all around.  If you're going to
              eschew morality and ethics, _at least_ be smart about it.  Is
              that too much to ask?
2004/5/15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30238 Activity:very high
5/15    This has been bugging me for a while.  Is there a statute of
        limitations on war crimes?  I'm guessing not.  So why are we in the
        process of electing Kerry, a self proclaimed war criminal, instead
        of investigating his crimes and those of his unit and prosecuting?
        \_ pathetic troll.
           \_ always easier to point the troll finger than answer the question.
              if it was Bush who publicly stated he had committed war crimes,
              you and the media would be all over it.  you don't even have to
              admit it.  it's clear.  kerry is a war criminal.  he has said so
              in public.  and you are going to vote for this bastard.  nice.
        \_ Kerry is not a self proclaimed war criminal:
           Kerry says he committed "atrocities" not war crimes. Do you
           think that firing your .50 cal in combat and burning houses on
           a search and destroy mission is a war crime?
        \_ So I am always curious about people like you. Why do you spread
           lies in an attempt to destroy a good mans character? Is there
           money in it for you? Do you make more than $250k/yr and fear
           a tax increase? I could understand that motivation, at least.
        \_ It's not a war crime unless you're fighting for a side that
           not only loses the war, but is taken over by the enemy.  Otherwise
           it's just a tragedy of war.
2004/5/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30225 Activity:insanely high
5/13    Washington Post Lead Editoral (http://csua.org/u/7ba
        "If you were shown a video of a United States Marine or an American
        citizen in control of a foreign power, in a cell block, naked with a
        bag over their head, squatting with their arms uplifted for 45
        minutes, would you describe that as a good interrogation technique or
        a violation of the Geneva Convention?" ... "I would describe it as a
        violation," Mr. Pace [vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff]
        said. "What you've described to me sounds to me like a violation of
        the Geneva Convention," Mr. Wolfowitz said. ... Now Mr. Pace and Mr.
        Wolfowitz have said the techniques approved by Mr. Sanchez would be
        illegal if used on Americans; Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Myers say they are
        fine as applied to Iraqis. But there are not separate Geneva
        Conventions for Americans and for the rest of the world. We learned
        this week that the Pentagon approved the use of hooding, stress
        positions, sleep deprivation, intimidation by dogs and prolonged
        solitary confinement as legal under the Geneva Conventions.
        \_ One thing I heard floated about is that Al Qaeda et al are not a
           state, and certainly do not subscribe to the Geneva convention
           themselves.  Thus treating 'terrorist' prisoners by the Geneva
           Convention would be nice of the US, but US is not required to do so.
           Of course not all Iraqi prisoners are 'terrorists' by even
           the most loose definition.
           Incidentally, I heard the Geneva Convention requires that POWs be
           paid a wage.  I wonder who actually does this. -- ilyas
           \_ I know the US did for German POWs during WWII.
              \_ Yes, POWs are to be paid for work they do.  Of course, if
                 you're naked for the majority of your stay with a bag on
                 your head, you probably aren't doing much work.
                 \_ What?  Naked cheerleading practice doesn't count?
                 \_ I believe they are supposed to be paid their regular wage,
                    whether or not they are working.
           \_ Iraqi citizens, terrorists or not, are covered by the GC.
              \_ How so?  If you fight a foe who does not subscribe to the GC,
                 you are not required to subscribe to the GC yourself when
                 treating their captured.  Unless I am confused about how
                 the GC works... -- ilyas
                 \_ The GC governs how signatories must treat the citizens of
                    an occupied country.  I don't know whether or not it
                    applies if the occupied country is not a signatory, and I
                    don't know whether of not Iraq is a signatory.
                    \_ Well, even if Iraq is ... it no longer applies because
                       (a) it has no legidimate government, and (b) some of
                       the guys ARE terrorists with no state allegiance.  Maybe
                       we need a new convention to govern hostile non-state
                       entities. -- ilyas
                       \_ It absolutely applies if there's no legitimate
                          government.  That's the whole point of protecting
                          civilians.  Otherwise as soon as one country
                          conquers another, if could just execute all the
                          civilians because there's no signatory government to
                          protect them anymore.  It also protects terrorists
                          if they are Iraqi civilians.  If they are *not*
                          Iraqi, they need to be treated under the regular
                          criminal justice system in Iraq, whatever that is.
                          \_ Ok, so why would one sign?  Say you are fighting
                             'partisans' or 'terrorists' who don't care about
                             the GC.  Why should you treat them well if they
                             don't treat you well?  It perhaps makes you
                             more humane, but it's not really a reciprocal
                             agreement anymore.  What about a nation state
                             that didn't sign, like NK? -- ilyas
                             \_ You want a purely Utilitarian argument for
                                respecting the Geneva Convention?  OK, imagine
                                we make a bunch of excuses and basically
                                ignore the GC for this war.  The next time we
                                we get in a war, the enemy will have no
                                incentive to treat our prosoners well.  They'll
                                just say "Look what those Americans did to
                                those prisoners! They deserve nothing but a
                                long painful death!"  Ignoring the GC now will
                                cause future torture and execution of American
                                \_ I think treating only signatory nation state
                                   prisoners by the GC is reasonable... -- ilyas
                                   \_ why is US in Iraq in the first place?
                                      huh huh.  Americans are weird.  They
                                      invade other countries, saying first
                                      it's WMD, and then changing it to like
                                      they want to bring freedom, human rights
                                      to Iraq, and then they torture
                                      Iraqis and justify it saying that the
                                      country didn't sign GC.  huh huh.  Of
                                      course, pseudo-intellectuals like ilyas
                                      don't really care about these things.
                                      He just wants a theoretical discussion
                                      about when it's ok to violate GC in
                                      his imaginary lala land.
                                      \_ speaking of pseudo-intellectuals...
                                      \_ You remind me of one my favorite
                                         intellectuals -- Beavis. ("I don't
                                         like things that suck, and I only
                                         like things that are cool.").  But
                                         adding to Beavis' mental clarity is
                                         your unusual grasp of the psychological
                                         nature of your opponent. -- ilyas
                        \_ It's hopeless to argue with ilyas.  I used to think
                           he is a troller, but by now I realize he has lost
                           his head without surgery or never had one.  For the
                           rest of us, the Geneva convention stipulates that
                           coutry at war need to treat the POW they take
                           nicely, and when one side won and take over the
                           other, treat the nationals of the defeated they
                           captured nicely (nicely is defined there).  If any
                           one violates this, he should (in principle) be
                           prosecuted for war crime.  Now this is law, whether
                           you want to adhere to it or break it is another
                           matter.  Anyway there is an advantage to US in that
                           US bars itself from being prosecuted for war crime,
                           so when US violates the Geneva convention, even
                           though it is illegal, nobody can (or dare to)
                           prosecutes it.
                  \_ This argument is moot, as Undersecretary of Defense for
                     Intelligence Cambone said the Geneva Conventions apply
                     "precisely" to Iraq.  To back up another point you made,
                     both Cambone and Taguba said the Conventions do not apply
                     at Guantanamo Bay.
        \_ Can you summarize your post in two words?  (hint hint)
           \_ I could, but I chose not to.  I already edited down for key
              points with appropriate supporting information.  I do think,
              though, that this one was hard to compress.
              though, that this one was hard to compress.  By the way, go
              rent The Fog of War.  Interview with 85-year-old Cal alum
              McNamara, who was Secretary of Defense for a while.
           \_ MASS GRAVES!!!
              \_ POGROMED JEWS!!!
        \_ Why don't you get a clue or are you still an FOB?  Americans are
           different from the dogs infesting the rest of the world.  Have
           you ever heard of the phrase "American Exceptionalism?"  America
           is the new Jerusalem and we are the real Israelites.
           \_ eh, you should be talking to the Washington Post, not to me
        \_ Missing the point that the GC is a treaty which doesn't apply to
           everyone.  Does cutting off some civilian's head violate anything?
           \_ Do you think, if we catch the people who cut off his head, that
              we *wouldn't* prosecute them?  -tom
           \_ "The Fourth Geneva Convention relates to the protection of
              civilians during times of war and under any occupation by a
              foreign power." -Wikipedia
              \_ Rush Limbaugh told me there was no such thing as
                 International Law.
2004/5/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30220 Activity:nil
5/12    Saddam had their hands cut off. America gave them new ones.
        \_ Neat!  Thanks for posting that.
        \_ Yay!  We aren't as bad as Saddam!  We should be so proud!
           "America!  Not as bad as a third world dictatorship!" could be
           the new national motto!
           \_ Did you even read the story???
              \_ Of course not.  It's much harder to be smug and
                 self-righteous when you know actualy FACTS....
                 \_ Actually I did, it seems pretty obvious to me the point
                    of the story was "Look!  look how much worse the prisons
                    were when Saddam was in power."
                    \_ I dunno, man -- it looks like 90% straight human
                       interest story with very, very little focus on the
                       current events surrounding the prison.
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30214 Activity:very high
5/12    First Court Martial Defendant Details Prison Abuse
        Sivits, who according to sources is expected to plead guilty at a
        court-martial proceeding next week in Baghdad ... maintained,
        according to the documents, that all of this was done without the
        knowledge of their superiors in the Army chain of command. "Our
        command would have slammed us," he said. "They believe in doing the
        right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to
        pay." ... All the other soldiers are expected to plead not guilty.
        ... But Sivits stressed that it was Graner and Frederick who led the
        small band of guards in their nightly revelries. "I was laughing at
        some of the stuff that they had them do," he conceded. "I was
        disgusted at some of the stuff as well. As I think about it now, I
        do not thing any of it was funny." Asked specifically what was not
        funny, he said, "the tower thing" - referring to prisoners being
        forced to strip and form a pyramid on the floor.
        \_ If they all knew it was wrong, and knew they would get in
           trouble... WHY THE FREAK DID THE PHOTOGRAPHI IT?  How stupid
           can you be?
           \_ yer tellin me (NY Post:)
              "[Pfc. Lynndie England ] was having sex with numerous partners.
              It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the
              photos. And, videos showed the disgraced soldier ... engaged in
              graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners
              ... "Almost everybody was naked all the time" ... Many members
              of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby
              missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough
              other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken
              anyone. ... Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the
              House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a
              video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall
              in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.
              \_ Having sex with other soldiers on film is stupid but hardly
                 torture by the geneva convention.  Why even bother reporting
        \_ This is contradictory to what other accused soldiers claimed.
           Maybe he has been softened up by a plea bargain or other tactics?
           \_ It's also possible that soldiers pleading innocent are just
              trying to get a lighter sentence by claiming it was leadership's
              fault.  It could also be that Rumsfeld / the Pentagon accepted
              only Sivits' story, and ignored everyone else's.
              I sure hope the full investigation resolves this.
           \_ This isn't your sissy civilian court where they are trying to
              get through as many pimps and drug pushers in an hour as
              possible.  The military doesn't need to 'plea bargain' with some
              dip shit junior grade nobody.  The guy isn't even a minor
              officer.  IIRC, he was in the reserves.  Sheesh.  He isn't
              getting off easier in any way by pleading guilty.  There is no
              deal.  Ditch the tinfoil hat.
              \_ Do you think they'll give any of them the death penelty?
                 I'm unfamiliar with current military law, but it seems
                 like the right situation.
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30213 Activity:moderate
5/13    Leaking self-doubt: How the military outed its own scandal
        \_ Whatever.  The military was in the middle of conducting an
           investigation and was preparing a PR release when CBS found out
           about it and had to scoop the story to make it look like some
           all purpose military conspiracy to hide the truth.  They were asked
           to hold back on the photos until the military could get their report
           out (roughly 1 week) but this is CBS.  Not exactly the home of good
           journalism.  So some shmucks at CBS played 'gotcha!' and won
           because you can't fight the media on their own turf.  Think CBS is
           going to spend a lot of time highlighting all this?
           \_ How is this not good journalism? Should the media always self
              censor at the request of the government?
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/5/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30200 Activity:nil
5/12    The pernicious idiocy of the left epitomized
        by this thread.  http://Salon.com accuses http://freerepublic.com
        of complicity in Berg's death.
        \_ Idiocy is synonymous with GWB. Stop trying to hijack our word.
           \_ w00t!
2004/5/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30197 Activity:nil
5/12    "My understanding is that they suspected that he was engaged in
        suspicious activity," Senor told a news conference.
                http://tinyurl.com/28ctq        (Yahoo Reuters)
2004/5/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30185 Activity:high
5/12    Berg's father blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances
        that led to his son's death.

        Coalition spokesman Senor said that in Iraq, Berg had no affiliation
        with the U.S. government, the coalition or "to my knowledge" any
        coalition-affiliated contractor.

        http://tinyurl.com/343s7  (yahoo news)
        \_ tourist?
           \_ http://csua.org/u/72a
              \_ Wrong url?
           \_ Mossad spy?
        \_ "On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia,
           contending their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military.
           The next day, Berg was released. He told his parents he had not been
           Michael Berg said that in early April, his son refused a U.S. offer
           to board an outbound charter flight because he thought the travel to
           the airport through an area where attacks had occurred was too
           State Department spokeswoman Kelly Shannon said that on April 10,
           Berg told a U.S. consular officer in Baghdad that he wanted instead
           to travel to Kuwait on his own."
           \_ "Today, coalition spokesman Dan Senor in Baghdad said Berg had
              been held by Iraqi police and questioned by the FBI three times.
              Senor said that to his knowledge Berg 'was at no time under the
              jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces,' according to the
              Associated Press."
2004/5/12 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30174 Activity:moderate
5/12    On the flip side, CNN headlines "U.S., Iraq vow to hunt down killers
        of American hostage", but do not attribute this declaration to anyone
        in particular in the story itself.
        \_ uh, what do you mean?
        \_ On the flip side of what?  Are you trying to be shocked that CNN
           does third rate reporting?
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30168 Activity:high
5/11    I'm waiting for the media and Dem. Congress to work themselves
        up into a frenzy over Berg's decapitation.  Of course no
        news organization will show the video on TV.
        \_ His family sent their son their just so they could blame it
           on Bushco.
        \_ I heard they played it on CNN.
        \_ "This kind of barbaric behavior will have the same effect it
           usually has: it will make civilized people around the world
           more determined than ever to exterminate al-Qaeda and its
           likeminded brethren.

           "Barbaric behavior doesn't win wars, it just makes your
           enemies more dedicated to their cause, which is why it's so
           important to eliminate the kind of barbarism we've recently
           seen at Abu Ghraib from our own side: because it just makes
           our enemies stronger. If we don't purge it root and branch,
           we've as good as lost the war. In more ways than one."
           \_ What do you hate America?  Why are you not on the side of our
              troops?  What's wrong with our heroic soldiers having some
              fun?  Why aren't Iraqis grateful enough to volunteer as comfort
              women and boys?
2004/5/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30166 Activity:kinda low
5/11    Rep. Duncan Hunter of California, on the beheading of Nick Berg:
        "From my own perspective, it validates Secretary [of Defense Donald]
        Rumsfeld and General [Richard] Myers' attempt to keep these initial
        photos from being published," Hunter said. ... "I think it shows
        they were trying to save American lives when they did that.
        Unfortunately, those pictures were released." -CNN
        \_ The beheading took place some time back.  This was not done in
           retaliation for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.  This was not done by
           Iraqis.  This was done by Al Qaeda.
        \_ I'll bet it would be even better if there was no torture to take
           pictures of.  Then we'd be really set!
           \_ Even though you don't provide any supporting URLs, I kind of
              believe everything you wrote.  Except, it's kind of hard to
              discriminate between Iraqi insurgents and Al Qaeda right now.
              \_ Actually, I was wrong about the timing.  Nick was beheaded
                 on Saturday.  Nevertheless, I think this was a calculated
                 move on the part of foreign insurgents in Iraq (i.e.,
                 Al Qaeda) to stir up precisely the sort of anger against
                 Iraqis we're seeing here. Their hope is that this will
                 drive a wedge between the Iraqis and US troops who have,
                 to this point, been trying to bridge the gap.
                 \_ The U.S. found his body on Saturday.  I guess it's hard
                    to believe the insurgents kept his corpse for a week.
                    Naturally, anti-U.S. forces killed Nick Berg and released
                    the video as an act of terror.
        \_ It's always good to know which congressmen would be happier if the
           American public were more ignorant. If we don't know bad things are
           happening, they they really didn't happen, right? Ooo shiny..
        \_ So what do we know about this Nick Berg guy?  Who was he there
           working for?  Why was he 'detained' by the US for over a week?  It
           was hard to tell from the news if he was even there legally or was
           just some random idiot who decided he was going to Iraq for his own
           random reasons.  Does anyone know for real what he was doing there
           and who sent him, if anyone?
2004/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30163 Activity:nil
5/11    Why THIS Iraqi doesn't give a crap about the Iraqi jail torture.
        (the second blog entry from the top of the page)
        \_ Healing Iraq has always been very pro-Invasion, pro-US.  Since this
           runs counter to the vast majority of the populace there now, I've
           always wondered exactly who or what he is.
           \_ Could be it's as he claims, an Iraqi dentist.  ie
        \_ Cf. with the entry titled "Abu Ghraib."
2004/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30162 Activity:very high
5/11    Captured on video:  Iraqi insurgents shown slitting throat and removing
        head of American contractor from Philadelphia using a large knife.
        (Yes, this is just after he names the members of his family and his
        hometown to the camera.)  Nick Berg's body found on Saturday in
        Baghdad.  It's all over the news now.
        \_ These people hate freedom.
        ---From Here---
        \_ Bring 'em on! --Bush
        \_ Ahh, they're just blowing off some steam. --Rush Limbaugh
        \_ I'm more outraged by the outrage. --Senator Inhofe
        \_ Ugh!  this is turning ugliyer and ugliger.
        \_ How long must the shit continue to hit the fan?
            \_ not really, turn off the Political correctness and Iraq war
                will be over in a drop of a bomb
                \_ What an intelligent solution!
        ---To Here---
           \_ To the above: you think this is some fucking joke?  Or it's just
              another way to take a shot at Bush for the fall election?  Wake
              the fuck up, you jerkoffs.  It was beyond the pale.  After that
              shit, I no longer give a flying fuck what happens to any Iraqi.
              I *did* care what happened somewhat after the 4 guys getting
              shot, burned, dragged through the streets and hung from a
              bridge.  I *did* kind of care about the prison abuse.  I no
              longer care.  They can turn it all to glass or use it as a huge
              target pracitce range now and I won't care about it anymore.
              These people don't deserve freedom, life, or anything else but
              a painful gruelling death.  This has gone beyond the political
              and you three are too stupid and self absorbed to see it.
                  \- the people claiming it is "some fucking joke"
                    are animals like rush limbaugh. and those kinds of
                    comments and reactions is what is in part nodoubt fueling
                    this wave of reliation of al queda recruitment. let's
                    ask howard dean again "has intervetion in iraq made
                    your more of less safe?" --psb
                    \_ Al Qaeda listens to Rush and got pissed off so they cut
        \_ "Berg's mother said the family had not seen the tape and were still
           trying to decide whether to view it. They had been having trouble
           accessing it because of a slow computer connection.  'I don't know
           if I want to see it. It's just so awful,' Suzanne Berg said."
                       of this guy's head on video for his family to see and
                       thus this is all Rush Limbaugh's fault because he made
                       them do it?
              \_ Well honestly I felt kind of down about that for a little
                 while but now I'm over it because you know, if you weren't
                 so fucking naive you'd understand that such episodes are
                 basically to be expected. I don't plan to watch that video.
                 It's from an al qaeda guy right? Not some joe blow Iraqi.
                 All the shit going on over there including the thousands
                 of innocent Iraqi bombing deaths and the Falluja stuff
                 are the semi-predictable postwar fallout so if you supported
                 the war you have to just grin and bear it, so to speak.
                 These guys trying to make money over there knowingly risk
                 their lives. The above comments are more a bitter I told
                 you so than comedy.
              \_ So, since Bush and his administration have claimed to be
                 commited to bringing democracy, freedom and economic
                 prosperity to Iraq, do you think that they are lying, or
                 are you forced to no longer support them?
                 \_ Price of tea in China?
              \_ You're right, this is far too awful to imagine.  But you're
                 mistaking their bitter tone for sheer jocularity- the point
                 you're missing is that responsibility for this goes back
                 further in time, and higher up the chain of responsibility,
                 than Abu Ghraib.  The dogs who did this to Nick Berg are
                 one more symptom of a COLOSSAL miscalculation.
                 \_ So Bush *made* them cut off his head and send a video?
              \_ The appropriate response is to get the people who did it.
                 Unfortunately, they're all masked in the video.
              \_ Using your argument, someone should nuke the US also. I am
                 sure our government has done similar things in the past.
                 \_ Using your argument all humans should be killed.
              \_ Using Bush's words, "Those few individuals do not
                 represent the ....." Need I say more?
                 \_ Yes, you need to.
              \_ Your nationalism is obsolete and boorish.
                 \_ And here we have a Citizen Of The World(c) adding his two
              \_ We warned you not to let the US get involved in this
                 pointless and illegal war. As for the self absorbed
                 crack, you are the worst of the bunch. -antiwar protestor
                        \_ Like the pacifists in the 1930's you still
                           refuse to recognize evil.  Militant Islam has
                           declared war on the West.  There is no middle
                           ground - they wan't to kill or convert ALL of
                           us.  Berg's decapitation was not a isolated
                           incident by fringe radicals; it is precisely how
                           Islam has been spread since its inception.  If
                           the war is not fought now it will be fought on
                           the streets of America.
                 \_ In what way am I self absorbed?  I'm not the one here
                    getting amusement or seeking political gain from this
                    man's brutal murder.  It isn't too late to restore Hussein
                    to power.  Do you think we should do that?  If we could go
                    back in time, is that the right answer?
                    \_ The right answer is to not go around sticking your nose
                       into everyone else's business, especially when it is
                       not invited and not welcome. This is a totally
                       predictable outcome of warfare: I bet stuff like this
                       happens in every war. Your self absorption is your
                       "nuke them  all, let God sort it out" philosophy.
                       Rather than bother yourself with trying to punish
                       the guilty and assist the innocent, you wish to take
                       the easy way out and proclaim all evil. Btw, politics
                       is sort of the opposite of "self absorption," almost
                       by defintion, unless you are a politician, perhaps.
              \_ I understand your anger.  It is right to feel angry when
                 human beings do this kind of thing to other human beings.
                 It's right to want to punish the ones who did this. It's
                 also important that we don't take out our frustration and
                 outrage on people who had nothing to do with this. Repeat
                 after me:  the murder of human beings, no matter how
                 outrageous, does not excuse further barbarism.
        \_ Time to turn sand into glass.
        \_ Ugh!  this is turning uglier and ugliger.
                   /f=r/~_-~ _-_ --_.^-~--\=b\
                 4fF / */  .o  ._-__.__/~-. \*R\
                /fF./  . /- /'~` -  \_  * *\ *\R\
               (iC.I+ '| - *- -@  )\  \  )  ) )|RB
               (I| (  [  / \-__ .   ) )  /_/ | *)B
               (I(. \ `` \   \_-/~~/__/ )_ .-~ F/
                \b\\=_.\_b`-+-~x-_/ .. ,._/ , F/
                 ~\_\= =  =-*###%#x==-#  *=- =/
                    ~\**U/~  | i i | ~~~\===~
                            | I I \\
                           / // I\ \\
                      (   [ (( WU) )))  )
                             || * |
                             | *  *\
                            /* /I\ *~~\
                          /~-/*  / \ \ ~~M~\
                ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___
                PLEASE STOP NUKING MY NUKULAR EXPLOSION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
           \_ fyi, http://ogrish.com has a download available
        \_ Berg's purpose for visit is unknown.  He has been arrested by
           FBI before.  His story might be more complicated than just simple
           hostage taking.
           \_ His purpose in Iraq is clear from his parents' description.
              He was a war supporter who helped set up electronics equipment
              at the Republican National Convention in Philly in 2000.
              He was trying to get more work rebuilding radio towers.
              He was arrested by Iraqi police and detained by coalition
              authorities.  They talked to the FBI, and the FBI talked to his
              parents.  Which web sites have you been reading?
           \_ Yeah, that's it, blame the victim.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30160 Activity:nil
5/11    New yorker article on Abu Ghraib: http://csua.org/u/792
2004/5/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30144 Activity:nil
5/10    If you care about property rights.
        Final battle in the war for the West?
2004/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30143 Activity:high
5/10    What happens to the woman prisoners in Iraq? Oh wait, I am sure
        our guys are not stupid enough to film it or take pictures!
        -reading too much alt.sex.stories
        \_ you just wish there were pics + divx.
        \_ "b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees
           ... k.  A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee"
        \_ Oh man, I am already hard thinking about it! I want to join
           the military!!
        \_ http://www.sexinwar.com (not work safe, do I really need to say this?)
        \_ When is the civil war going to start?  My neighbor is cute but she
           is not interested in me because I am a conservative.
           \_ Try it buddy, we teach our liberal girls to bite down.
2004/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30137 Activity:very high
5/10    Torture means chopping off their fingers and cutting off their
        gentiles.  All you people complaining about the abuse in Iraq,
        I don't think it's torture! How else do you think we plan to
        find the WMD? Our soldiers are posing next to those people
        because it's fun, not torture! What do you think we should do?
        Give each of them a fucking lawyer so they won't have to tell
        us shit? -troll
        \_ Rumsfeld is doing a superb job. -Dubya
           \_ I agree. -OBL
              \_ Me too...oh wait... -SH
        \_ I support cutting off gentiles. --Radical Jewish Activist
        \_ I don't think "gentile" means quite what you think it means.
2004/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30134 Activity:nil
5/10    "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying
         to destabilize their country, and we will help them rid Iraq of these
         killers." -???
        \_ GWB, referring to al-Qaida. Bad troll! No cookie!
2004/5/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30133 Activity:very high
5/10    The prisoners of mention in Abu Ghraib were politial prisoners caught
        with IEDs, attacking coalition forces, or with caches of
        weapons.  They are not common criminals.  They must be interrogated
        to save lives.
        \_ Except for all the innocent people caught in a warzone.
        \_ hmm. the terrorist made the entire world a warzone
        \_ Yep.  But if our prisons are as bad as Saddam's, who precisely are
           we liberating? -emarkp
           \_ That's pretty naive. -- ilyas
              \_ That's pretty presumptive.  My point was that the thugs that
                \_ This was mild compared to what Saddam did.  What are
                   we expected to do - interrogate terrorists with cushy
                 coerced those prisoners weren't very different than Saddam's
                 thugs.  I was not calling equating Saddam's Iraq with the
                      abuse is said to have occurred) and when I looked down
                      the corridor, I saw two naked detainees, one
                      masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open,"
                      he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out
                      of there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like
                      the wrong thing to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick
                      walking towards me, and he said, `Look what these
                      animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.'"
                 current occupation.  I've simply gotten tired of the partisan
                 conservatives who are trying to excuse this behavior.  It was
                 inexcusable. -emarkp
                 \_ Do you find the torture itself inexcusable or the lack
                    of professionalism, or perhaps something else? -- ilyas
           \_ I think the argument would go that our prisoners are justly
              detained while Saddam's were not.
                            \_ Well, we murdered some people, too. Probably
                               not as many as Saddam but he had 20 years, we
                               have only been in power for one.
              \_ This was mild compared to what Saddam did.  What are we
                 expected to do - interrogate terrorists with cushy pillows?
                 \_ How much "nicer" than Saddam do we have to be to not be
                    like him?  I have no problem using forceful questioning
                    tactics.  I *do* have a problem forcing prisoners to *act*
                    in ways they find morally offensive.  And any techniques
                    for "softening up" prisoners should be practiced by people
                    trained in extracting information, not random GI's from the
                    motor pool.  Furthermore, there shouldn't be any pictures.
                    \_ Yeah taking pictures was stupid.  It provided proof.  I
                       agree with your 'don't do anything the prisoners find
                    \_ I'd rather have that than be physically maimed and/or
                       killed. Not that I'm defending it or whatever but in
                       context of "mild compared to what Saddam did". What
                       exactly did Saddam do? -someone else
                       \_ Woodchipper.  Feet first.
                       \_ This is why no gays or women in the military.
                       \_ Well, we murdered some people, too. Probably not as
                          many as Saddam but he had 20 years, we have only been
                          in power for one.
                       morally offensive' line.  I find paying my taxes, my
                       mortgage and ever increasing oil prices morally
                       offensive.  I should not have to do any of these things.
                       My rights should at least match those of some murdering
                       religous fanatic thug.
                 \_ Defending Abu Ghraib takes motd idiocy to a new level!
                    \_ Hmmm, a new form of ad hominen?
                       \_ dude, you use it a lot so get it right: "hominem"
                          \_ i find it offensive that you would attack me for
                             being a stutterer.
                             \_ Shut up and climb onto the pyramid.
                                \_ Best. Riposte. EVER.
                                   \_ Ripostes are now "freedom parries".
                                      \- i think BUSH misunderstood what
                                         his FAVORITE PHILOSOPHER meant
                                         by TURN THE OTHER CHEEK.
                 \_ "I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the
                    abuse is said to have occurred) and when I looked down the
                    corridor, I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to
                    another kneeling with its mouth open," he is quoted as
                    saying. "I thought I should just get out of there. I didn't
                    think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing to
                    do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and
                    he said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them
                    alone for two seconds.'"
                    -NY Times
        \_ Meanwhile, a report completed in February by the International
           Committee of the Red Cross and leaked to media outlets Monday
           found that up to 90 percent of Iraqis held by U.S. and allied
           troops have been arrested by mistake. -CNN
           \_ Thanks.  was trying to find that again.
              \_ No reference other than "CNN" provided.  Why are you thanking
           \_ The ones caught with weapons and setting IEDs??
           \_ "Leaked"?  Hehehe, yeah I'm sure that was a mistake/error.  The
              LA Times is the source of all honest jorunalism and anything to
              the right of NPR is neocon propaganda.  Yep.
              \_ Yes, "leaked."  Information is leaked TO a newspaper, not BY
                 it.  But feel free to ignore the fact that the Red Cross told
                 Bremer about abuses in the middle of last year.
2004/5/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:30130 Activity:high
5/10    We have economic sanctions against Syria now.  I thought the whole
        point about going to war in Iraq was that sanctions flat out don't
        work.  What's a real conseravtive to think?
        \_ We should have been in Syria by now if the liberals had not tried
        \_ We should have been in Syria by now if da liburhuls had not tried
           so hard to obstruct US.  But it won't delay us for so long.  In a
           year we will, and then Iran, NK....
           \_ No no no, clearly the Shleiffen plan calls for a sweep to the
              right, violating the neutrality of Belgium.
              \_ Everybody knows we should have started with Western Australia.
        \_ No.  That was not the point, troll.  Sanctions can work in some
           places.  They can not work in places where the leadership has solid
           control over the population and is otherwise isolated from any
           sanctions effects by their own access to wealth such as Hussein's
           entire clan during the corrupt UN run 'oil for food' criminal
2004/5/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30125 Activity:very high
5/9     What happened if Iraqi decided to file War Crime charges against
        Rumsfeld and President Bush?  That would be really fun.
        \_ That would be really stupid, unless they can prove Bush and
           Rummy directly ordered the abuse.
        \_ we had ourselves exempted from judgement by the world court
           years ago.  smart!
           \_ Almost eerily prescient....
           \_ Funny how consistent Bush seems to be about retaining sovereignty.
           \_ The US doesn't commit war crimes, so all joining the ICC would do
              is allow rogue states to drag honorable US servicemen before a
              kangaroo court.  - Model 2001 Talking Head
        \_ just nuke Iraq and get rid of the evidence
            \_ just nuke all the muslim nations and their will be peace
               \_ Kill all the godless and bring about The Rapture!
                  George W Bush is fufilling the Prophecy of Armageddon.
                  \_ Sadly, there is a big chunk of evangelicals that pretty
                     much think exactly this.  Why do you think there is so
                     much evangelical support for Israel?  Because part of
                     Armageddon described in Revelations is the tribes
                     returning to the homeland...
                     \_ I love these guys. Ask them if forcing the "Revelations
                        prophecy" isn't akin to trying to commit suicide.
        \_ Kill 'em all and let God sort them out. --Mohammed Atta
        \_ Just nuke the whole fucking world. They are all better off with
2004/5/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30110 Activity:very high
5/8     Americans are weird.  They would rather die than give up
        their honor.  Yet, they think it's ok to humiliate Iraqis
        as long as they didn't cut off their fingers, etc.
        \_ ChiCom Troll, you rock.  The number of replies below must be close
           to some record for a single post.  Good job, man.  I'm impressed.
           \_ Damn... gone for a few hours and it tripled in length.  This is
              high quality trolling.  Excuse me while I join back in.
        \_ 'They'?  I think you're confused.  The reaction I've gotten from
           friends, coworkers, media, etc is pretty much anger, embarrassment,
           and outrage.  *Please* don't use Rush or any of a set of political
           pundits to make broad generalizations about a nation of 270+
           million.  *sheesh*
           \_ Sorry 2/3 of America thinks it's overblown.  This is not
              crimes against humanity.  What is shown in those pictures
              is hazing.
              \_ "Do you feel that these incidents are not a big
                 deal, because this kind of thing happens in a war
                 situation, or do you think they are a big deal, because
                 this kind of abuse is unacceptable no matter what the
                 Not a Big Deal: 28%
                 A Big Deal: 69%
                 No Opinion: 3%
                 Fuck you.
                 \_ That's a great poll question.  Very unbiased and neutral
                    wording.  Or not.  It still doesn't matter for the
                    election, for world opinion, middle east poliy or anything
                 \_ Well, from the same http://pollingreport.com,
                    "What's your own personal reaction to the apparent abuse
                    of Iraqi prisoners?"  7% not concerned.  39% concerned,
                    not upset.  27% upset, not angry.  24% angry.  2% no
                    opinion.  How concerned vs. upset vs. angry is read
                    depends on your bias.
                    \_ True, but still >50% are more than "concerned".
                       \_ How would you portray the media representation
                          of the abuse?  Not concerned, concerned, upset,
                          or angry?  You can be upset and still think the
                          media is overblown.  It's all relative.
               \_ 2/3?  Uhm, where did you get *that* number from? Rush?
                        \_ I don't listen to Rush though I agree with much he
                           has to say.
                 \_ Polls from any major newspaper?  You've been in the Bay
                    Area too long.  The rest of the country doesn't care.
                    \_ Is it fun to be wrong?
                       \_ Apparently so.  My Texas relatives feel the same way.
        \_ How is that wierd?  Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
                          Last I checked, Texas isn't in the fucking Bay Area.
                          \_ I meant about your trumped up "fact".  Find me
                             a poll that backs up your statement.  Polling your
                             family doesn't count.
                          \_ Duh, your lefty family sent their kids to a lefty
                             school and it's some shock that they're still
                             lefties?  What was your point again?
                             \_ Heh, you don't know my family.  Your
                                presumptions are basically wrong, kid.  Stick
                                to what you know.
              \_ Umm... hazing is abuse of your peers as a prelude to accepting
                 them into your group.  Unless they were planning on making the
                 Iraqi prisoners honorary US soldiers, it was not hazing, and
                 probably torture.
                        \_ This is not a game of semantics but your
                           definition is inaccurate.  If this is your definition
                           of torture I think the soldiers should continue
                           it and increase the intensity.
        \_ How is that weird?  Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
           And where does that "rather die than give up their honor" thing
           come from?  That actually doesn't sound very American at all.
        \_ American talked about honors, but they are no more honrable
           than anyone else.  American tend to turn a blind eye on their
           share of dirty things.
           \_ Yes, Americans are people, too.  You have a point?
           \_ Actually, they tend to turn a very open eye on their dirty
              things, which is not the norm in this world. We're certainly
              not turning a blind eye on this Iraq prisoner stuff.
              \_ we are just blaming this to few "bad apples" and let things
                 continue.  The concept of applying the same human right
                 standard to non-white is a recent phenonmon anyway
                 (circa 1960).  The white imperialist mentality, which
                 embedded well within our social DNA, is acting up again,
                 this time, against Arabs or Islam believers in general.
                 \_ and continue?  which is why all of the people involved are
                    now on trial?  Also, "white imperialist mentality?"  "our
                    social DNA"?  <insert ad homenin here>
        \_ Then leave so you won't have to put up with us. Please!!
        \_ "Honorable" men get to rape and torture dishonorable men (and
           women).  Okay?  And you were thinking of terrorists.  Now go away.
           \_ what is the differences between we and us?  both of us uses
              violent to accomplish our idealogical goal; both of us are
              torturing prisoners.  Neither of us are tolerating each other's
              \_ People are people at a personal level and all have the
                 capacity to do evil.  The difference is that in my culture
                 this is unacceptable and we put people on trial for it.  In
                 yours the leaders encourage evil and call it good.
        \_ Unfortunately the Dems have been politicizing this war and this
           just another one of their tactics.
           \_ And this is just another republican spin-meistering to try
              to deflect blame away from the party that gave us the WMD,
              anti-terrorist (aka...finish what my father didn't do, and
              get some cheap oil, too, for my buddy Cheney...whoops, didn't
              mean to imply that cheney wasn't the boss) war. Time to topple
              one more regime: the bush regime.
                \_ You missed the averted chemical attack in Jordan?  Would
                   have condemned Bush had he wanted to go into Afghanistan
                   before 9/11?  Were you surprised by Libya's
                   nuclear weapons program?  The world would be better off
                            WRT the Cold War you interpreation of history
                   with Saddam in power?  This is not a war about oil or
                   patronage, it's about assymetrical warfare with a foe
                   fanatically dedicated to the destruction of the West.
                   If Europe had any sense whatsoever they would invade
                   Syria.  This is war of ideas to accelerate a reformation
                   in Islam and cleanup / pacify the Middle East cesspool.
                   This should have been done post-WWII.  Instead
                   brainwashed leftists contrive conspiratorial plots
                   that Bush wants to take over the world and is the new
                   Hitler.  Get a grip and think strategically.
                   \_ Bah!  First we sacrificed the opportunity for a
                      moderate, progressive middle east at the altar
                      of the cold war.  Now, we sacrificed it at the
                      altar of our supposed security interest against
                      terrorists and non-existent WMDs.  Brain-washed
                      neo-cons are absolutely clueless about how to
                      \_ When exactly did we miss out on the chance for a
                         moderate progressive middle east?  In the bizarro
                         world timeline?  Did they teach you this in some
                         "Teach-in" on Sproul?
                      \_ LYING, BACKSTABBING JEWS!!!!!!!!!!
                        \_ I bet you are the kind of person who froths about
                           "identity politics" and how they are destroying
                           our country.
                               point for bringing that up.  What should
                               we have done differently?
                           \_ They are but no one is frothing about it.  Maybe
                              they should be.  My country is worth a healthy
                              dose of frothing over.  Is yours?
                               \_ you totally missed the irony didn't you?
                      foster a moderate middle-east, as can be seen by
                      their utter bungling of the Iraqi endeavor.
                      Long term progress has again and again been
                      sacrificed for short term American interests.
                      Reform has to come from within with US perhaps
                      providing some carrots.  Wielding a big stick
                      clumsily and whacking the wrong targets will
                      never work.
                        \_  It's easy to argue from the vantage point
                            of 20/20 hindsight.   Iraq was 1-2 yrs from
                            a nuclear weapon in '92.  You ignored my
                            question WRT to Jordan and Afghanistan because
                            I don't think you have a cogent argument, relying
                            instead on platitudinous rhetoric.  Would you have
                            supported action in Afghanistan prior to 9/11?
                            WRT the Cold War your interpreation of history
                            is flawed.  It was France and Britain that
                            partitioned the ME, we had relatively little
                            We were doing quite well in Iran, for instance,
                            until Carter betrayed the Shah.  Your entire
                            \_ no we didn't.  We overthrew a true democracy
                               for a brutal dictator that is almost as bad
                               but not nearly as effective as Saddam.
                            comment is vague.  Please, specifically what
                            would you have done differently?  What, when
                            and how did we sacrifice????  I don't understand
                            what historical event you are describing.
                            \_ I am not the guy who says "topple the
                               Bush regime".  Frankly, I don't see the
                               point of your two questions with regard to
                               Jordan and Afghanistan.  Would you have
                               condemned Clinton if he decides to go
                               into Afghanistan during his term?  The
                               Republicans sure would have.  Would it
                               have stopped 9/11, or a similar incident?
                               I doubt it, as long as the lax security
                               on the homefront continued.  I am actually
                               for the invasion of Afghanistan to get rid
                               of OBL.  Above you claim that foes are
                               trying to destroy "the West", and now you
                               try to distance US from the past history of
                               Britain and France which are part of the
                               West.  In any case, I don't see what's your
                               point for bringing that up.
                                \_ They are self declared as trying to destroy
                                   the West as their goal.  The US wasn't the
                                   country that divided the middle east.  You
                                   are trying to create a false link between
                                   these two true statements.
                               What should we have done differently?
                               For a start, we should have reduced our gas
                               guzzling habits, and hence dependence on
                               middle east oil.  With that,
                               instead of cuddling up with dictators,
                               we could have better encouraged the
                               progressive and reform minded elements in
                               those societies starting with Saudi Arabia
                               from which most of the 9/11 terrorists
                               came from.
                                   \_ Which progressive and reform minded
                                      elements?  You're just joking with that
                                      line, right?
                                   \_ Yet you also want to constrain
                                      domestic oil production (ie. Anwar).
                                      So the US should have retreated to
                                      isolationism rather than deal with
                                      dictators during the Cold War???
                                      What a strategy, comrade!  Your
                                      suggestions are not grounded in
                                      reality.  Reform minded elements
                                      among the Saudis... I see.  Do you
                                      know anything at all about the history
                                      of the country? Anything???
                                      Killing OBL during the '90s would
                                      not have changed the outcome of
                    (1) who's talking about oil production?  it's oil
                    consumption we are talking about.
                          \_ Well nuclear is out because of greens / libs.
                             That leaves what - wind power???  Do you
                             live in reality???
                             \_ read the report put out by NSF, it said
                                that by increase fuel efficiency by 10% in
                                light truck and cars, we would of saved more
                                oil than two Alaska's reserve.
                                \_ fuel efficiency has risen dramatically over
                                   the last 50 years.  people just drive more.
                                   until we get to that mythical 100+ mpg on
                                   all our vehicles you're only delaying the
                                   inevitable.  and now we have China ramping
                                   up their industry and competing on the world
                                   market for the same oil....
                    (2) Isolationism?  who's talking about isolationism.
                    learn to read, and stop setting up childish strawmen.
                        \_ Then what?  We shouldn't have allied with
                           Stalin during WWII?  Rhee was a bad idea
                           in Korea?  The Shah was a bad idea in Iran?
                           I think you are completely devoid of
                           any pretense, instead substituting feigned
                           indignance for substantive argument.
                           We saw the cumbaya group hug rhetoric
                           from Carter.  Again reality????
                           \_ Please don't even mention Carter on the motd
                              again.  The mere mention of his name makes me
                              physically ill.  If you must, please refer to
                              him as "that weakling idiot peanut farmer".
                              Thank you.
                    (3) Reform minded elements is exactly right.  Been
                    too busy pumping the oil to have noticed?  If you
                    don't know much history, at least learn how to use
                        \_ Saudi Arabia is controlled exclusively
                           by the children of Aziz (brothers).
                           Exactly how would you circumvent them?
                           Crown Prince Abdullah is more anti-Western
                           then Fahd. Again reality is important!
                        \_ If you so easily found "reform minded elements"
                           in the Saudi kingdom please share the links with the
                           rest of us who lack your search-fu.
                    (4) Killing OBL in the 90s?  And who's the one
                    complaining about 20/20 hindsight?  And Clinton did
                    made an attempt to kill him with the missile attack.
                    Wasn't too successful but neither is Bush's efforts
                    so far.  Meanwhile, bombs are still going off all
                    over the world.  Why isn't it going off in the US?
                    Like I said, tightened domestic security.
                        \_ Really?  How about when OBL was in north africa and
                           his 'hosts' offered and even begged us several times
                           to take him and Clinton said no?
                        \_ Right... launching Tomahawks at camels in the
                           desert.  Clinton has admitted he did not
                           take OBL from Sudan when offered.  Attacked
                           5 times in the '90s.. what was the response?
                           Waco, elian, and effectively selling ballistic
                           missile technology to China.  In summary
                           I ask for specific policy differences you
                           propose.  Instead I get extremely vague
                           wishy washy nonsense.  Why I am not surprised
                           and why did I even bother??
                           \_ We invade Iraq to stop terrorism? Why not just
                              use our resources (money, lives) wisely, instead
                              of using the "war on terror" as an excuse (and
                              opportunity) in fulfilling a pre-9/11 republican-
                              fucks agenda. Quit living with your head up
                              Bush's ass.
                              \_ Not the same poster, but even I can see
                                 that this response has nothing to do with
                                 his rebuttal to your arguments. You lose.
                                 \_ that is because every time we won, you
                                    fucking deleted the thread.
                                    \_ _I_ Deleted the thread?  That's
                                       interesting.  Maybe you should use
                                       "someone" instead of "you".  You
                                       lose again.
                                    \_ No one has deleted a god damned thing.
                                       That old lie is the final excuse for
                                       being crushed in motd debate.  I expect
                                       this whole embarassing (to you) episode
                                       to get censored in a few minutes.
2004/5/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30098 Activity:very high
5/8     In response to "You sincerely believe the pictures show torture?",
        I would say "Yes," and it seems like most in the administration agree.
        Now... why is it that we are only hearing the word "abuse" and not
        \_ Newspeak?
        \_ Because most people think of torture as physical pain to extract
           information.  The pictures of Iraqis being forced into sexual
           situations don't fit that mental model.  That doesn't mean it isn't
           torture, it just doesn't fit what most people think.
           \_ It's definitely humiliation.
              \_ Ok, that's it.  I've had enough of hearing about how every
                 little thing is a "humiliation" to some Arabs and thus a
                 valid reason for their irrational militarism.  Let's just nuke
                 the cities, leave a radiation-free path to the major oil
                 fields and a few key ports and be done with it.  As the
                 winners we'll be writing the history anyway.
                 \_ So Bush should have never have talked about Saddam having
                    rape rooms, because obviously rape is just humiliation,
                    not torture?  I mean that follows from your arguments.
                \_ making naked human pyramids is pretty out of control.
                   i hope they send those guards somewhere to learn some
                   sense for a very long time.
                 \_ you've HUMILIATED ME you american SATAN!
                    \_ YOU = NUKED.  ME = GOT YOUR OIL.
              \_ Oh... the... Horror! Terrible, terrible ego bruising. We need
                 a bronze monument of the naked man-stack. Never forget!!
           \_ ``When the tall man was not satisfied with my answers, he hit
                me in the face. ''
                \_ electro-shock to the genitals, torture.  bitch slap,
                   abuse.  that's why it's called spousal abuse and not
                   spousal torture.
                   \_ Some would call marriage torture, peroid.
                      \_ BDG!
        \_ They show "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic,
           cruel and inhuman," Rumsfeld said.
           \_ Making you listen to golden oldies while on hold is also
              blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.
        \_ Semantics is a tricky business.  I don't know why some choose to
           call it whatever but I'd agree that most of what we've seen or
           heard of is "torture".  The part I think some people here are
           confused about is the PR effect this will have.  Someone has been
           writing here how "this issue will stick" and thus cause Bush to
           lose this fall.  These are two distinct issues.  It may or may not
           stick in the news cycle for more than the next week or so.  However,
           I disagree with what that means.  I don't think the typical voter
           is going to hold Bush personally responsible.  I do think the rest
           of the world will shove this in our collective faces forever which
           will only serve to make Americans less concerned about what the rest
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country has involved
           of the world thinks.
           \_ I agree. -dem
        \_ Rush Limbaugh said it was no worse than "frat hazing." Is being
           gang raped part of frat initiations now? Can someone who is a
           fraternity member enlighten me?
           \_ Frats are gay. Rush is right.
           \_ Quite a few people in this country went to prison for
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country had involved
              sodomy, murder, and other things besides.  I don't know what
              Limbaugh had in mind, but he was (sadly) spot on. -- ilyas
              \_ fun trivia fact: the first time George W. Bush was quoted
                 in the New York Times was in 1967, defending the sadistic
                 hazing rituals of the Yale DKE chapter which were under
                 attack by reform-minded yalies out side of the greek system.
                 \_ Were they stacking the fresman naked in pyramids?
              \_ I didn't realize you were a fraternity member ilyas.
                 \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass reply of
                    the day" award!
                    \_ Why is it dumb? Did everyone already know that ilyas
                       was in a fraternity except me? How did they know that?
                       \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass thread
                          of the day" award!
                       \_ He got banged by everyone and pulled around on a
                          leash in front of Sproul by the Hate Man, with wires
                          attached to his balls.  Where were you?
                          \_ pics?  URL?
        \_ If those pictures show torture I think they should continue
           it and even step up the intensiy a bit.
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30084 Activity:high
5/6     867,000 new jobs created this year.  Unemployment rate down to 5.6%
        \_ 867k low-pay/service sector/temp jobs.  Yawn.  Besides, 2 months
           of job growth does not make a trend.  And the torture of Iraqi
           prisoners will result in a universal wave of disgust that will
           knock the Bushies out of office.
           \_ hey, Dubya didn't promise "good" jobs
           \_ Bush can still pull out of Iraq and win the election. I don't
              think he will, though.
           \_ What, you think all the jobs based on nothing from the .com era
              will come back?
        \_ Funny quote from the article: "More Americans are working today
           than at any time in our nation's history."  No shit Sherlock.
           There are also more Americans today than at any time in our
           nation's history.
           \_ That's why they're good politicians.  They say things that are
              only misleading but not wrong.
           \_ Of course critics have been saying that there are more people out
              of work now than ever for quite a while.  Soon, any economic
              statistic will favor the present.
              \_ You mean like "we currently have the highest trade deficit
                 ever"? The highest government deficit ever? The highest
                 oil prices ever? I would not call that favoring the present,
                 but I guess that is one way to look at it.
2004/5/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30079 Activity:insanely high
5/6     Everyone should read the latest entry from Riverbend:
        \_ URL  deleted due to advertising lameness.
           \_ What advertising lameness?
              \_ You need to tell people what this is about.
                 \_ Okay:  Riverbend is a blog by an Iraqi woman living in
                    Baghdad.  Her most recent entry talks about current Iraqi
                    reactions to the pictures from Abu Ghraib; as might be
                    expected, this reaction is not favorable to the Coalition.
                    It's an interesting read in that it shows an average
                    Iraqi's take on things, a perspective often lacking in
                    US media's portraits of the situation there.
                    http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com   -!op
        \_ "I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make
           suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture,
           don't kill and get out while you can- while it still looks
           like you have a choice... Chaos? Civil war? Bloodshed? We'll
           take our chances- just take your Puppets, your tanks, your
           smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty
           promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go. "
           \_ w00t!
           \_ Why do you hate America? Oh...
           \_ w00t! (please don't censor my w00t! asshole!)
                \_ finally got around to looking up what this means :P
           \_ You may end up regretting statement Riverbend.
              \_ Murphy's Law #302: Anyone who asks, "How can things possibly
                 get any worse?" should be beaten about the head and shoulders
                 with a stick.
           \_ Why do you hate America??? Oh... (why does the AMC hate this?)
2004/5/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30072 Activity:nil
5/6     The case for staying the course in Iraq: an Arab perspective:
        \_ A traitor to his people and the war against the Zionist Entity.
2004/5/6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30059 Activity:very high
5/6     Rush Limbaugh on the Abu Ghraib incidents:
        \_ Got a transcript? I can't listen to him at work.
           \_ Got a transcript?  I can't listen to him.
           \_ Partial transcript here:
        \_ Despicable, and one more reason conservatives should abandon Rush.
           Compare that to Glenn Beck's comments that he supports the troops
           but would like to spit in the face of the soldiers who did this.
        \_ Wow.  Talk about taking things out of context.  When will he start
           saying that the prisoners were having fun too?
           \_ "When you invade a country, you have to break some eggs.
               My enemies are blowing this out of proportion, to get to ME."
                  -Dick Cheney
                   \-"The Iraqis should be glad they were abused by Americans.
                      If they had been abused by Italians for Japanese, then
                      it would have been even more humiliating." -D. Cheney
           \_ Well, the (not so) silent majority of Americans think they are.
2004/5/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30048 Activity:high
5/6     Depressing profile of the female soldier pointing at the Iraqi's
        genitals in that picture:
        http://csua.org/u/779 (The Daily Telegraph)
        \_ "'To the country boys here [in West Virginia], if you're a
             different nationality, a different race, you're sub-human.
             That's the way girls like Lynndie are raised.'"
                    \- yes, let's protect Human Cockroaches like this because
                       they are fellow americans. NO OUTSOURCING!
                       \_ You win the non-sequiter of the day award.
           \_ Actually sounds like they'd get along just fine in Iraq.  We
              should ship them all there.
              \_ as long as we get them the fuck out of here!
        \_ Most depressing is that isn't just West Virginia. That's VA,
           SC, NC, Georgia, and the rest of the south. Trust me, I live there.
           And don't bring up "big city" counterexamples, you kno wwhat I mean.
2004/5/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30040 Activity:very high
5/6     Wow, 62% of Americans are dissatisfied with the way things are going
        in the U.S., up from 55% in January.  53% disapprove of Bush's
        handling of foreign affairs.
        If you think these numbers will be going down, you should visit the
        news sites today.  It's worse than what the motd currently has.
        \_ 5 months from now the Saudi government will drastically lower
           the price of oil causing Bush's poll numbers to skyrocket.
           \_ nah, bush policies generating too many terrorists, and
              is destablizing saudi arabia.
        \_ In the next 6 months a shitload of them and their family/friends
           will be getting jobs and raises and the news will be reporting the
           Bush economic miracle.  It's a long time to the election.
           \_ Except prisoner abuse is going to stick.
              Economic miracle?  Greenspan wants to raise interest rates,
              although I could see Bush keeping it down to help his re-election
              \_ As above.  48 news cycle.  Interest rates aren't going any
                 where until after November and even if they went up a half
                 point they'd still be at 30+ year lows.  You think they'll
                 suddenly raise rates by 4 points??
                 \_ Search http://news.yahoo.com for "interest rate increase":  AP
                    May 5 - "The view of a growing number of economists that
                    the central bank's first rate increase in more than four
                    years will come this summer solidified Tuesday as Federal
                    Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and his colleagues decided
                    to keep a key short-term interest rate at a 46-year low.
                    In doing so, however, the Fair Market Policy Committee
                    dropped a promise to be 'patient' before it starts raising
                    rates."  Up 4 points?  Are you so fucking stupid to think
                    I'm so fucking stupid to suggest that?  Anyway, you know
                    how investors are, the effect on the stock market, and the
                    subsequent ripple effect with even a minor increase in
                    rates.  I don't really think you need me to tell you that.
                    Okay, fuck it, I've said my piece, I'm getting back to
                    \_ Even if they do, the market is self rationalizing.
                       Nothing will happen "because the market has already
                       taken this into account since Greenspan projected his
                       plans back in early May after the last metting".  There
                       is no logic to the market.  Only crowd following, greed
                       and lots of randomness.
                       \_ The point was weakening the "economic miracle"
                          theory you are putting forth.  I can't believe I'm
                          back here arguing.  Okay, now I'm out of here.
2004/5/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30039 Activity:insanely high
5/6     Highly anti-BushAdmin opinion piece in today's Washington Post
        (Actually, almost all the editorials and opinion pieces are like that
        \_ Yep, one day of many.  This will flush out of the news cycle in 48
           hours like everything else.
           \_ Except prisoner abuse is going to stick.
              \_ Will it?  I'll bet people who care about it are already
                 voting anti-Bush.
                 \_ The poll numbers from yesterday suggest that even
                    Republicans are losing faith.
                    \_ I'm a Republican living in an ultra leftist area of a
                       majority leftist state so I'm inundated with anti-Bush
                       noise constantly.  Keep dreaming.  --not losing anything
                       \_ Ah, I love a bunker mentality.  Execute Wing Attack
                          \_ Ain't nobody ever got the Go code yet. And old
                             Ripper wouldn't be giving us plan R unless them
                             Russkies had already clobbered Washington and a
                             lot of other towns with a sneak attack.
              \_ 48 hours news cycle.  You can set your clock to it.  From the
                 moment the last new abuse photos hit the wires +48 hours =
                 story dead.
                 \_ So, when will the "last" photo come out?
                    \_ Depends on how many there are, doesn't it?  Do you think
                       there will be a new photo every few days between now and
                       \_ The British investigation is just starting.  Who
                          knows how many CD-ROMs with photos are going to come
                          up?  The Arab world is completely bonkers about this.
                          The problem is, now they have something which they
                          can clearly complain about, and every American knows
                 \_ were you the one who think disbanding the Iraqi army
                    is a smart move?  obviously you don't realize how
                    how detrimental the photos and other even more
                    serious allegations of abuse are.  This thing won't
                    go away anytime soon.  It's way beyond the silly
                    little US news media by now.  It's going to come
                    back again and again for a very long time.
                    \_ No, he wasn't.  My point was never that disbanding the
                       Iraqi army was a good idea -- you projected that
                       interpretation because it's want you wanted to see.  My
                       point was always that you're a naive, unobjective,
                       ill-informed idiot.  You've just seen what you wanted
                       to see and heard what you wanted to hear.  Have a nice
                       life.  Maybe you'll even grow up one day.  And dammit.
                       I've been trolled.
                       \_ Nice try.  I clearly explained why disbanding the
                          Iraqi army was bad when I stated it.  These were the
                          very same reasons the US administration stated when
                          they realized it was a mistake and took step to try
                          to reverse the decision.  It's a classic case of
                          overconfidence in the US military's ability to
                          defeat any opposition which led to blatant disregard
                          for alienating the most well-trained people in
                          Iraq, many of whom joined the Iraqi army for the same
                          reason people join the US army - serving one's country.
                          Your need for name-calling goes to show you are the
                          only one who has some growing up to do.
                          \_ You continue to misremember the details of the
                             first argument and project your point of view
                             onto my position.  Reread the archives and try
                             thinking OBJECTIVELY.  And learn how to post to
                             motd correctly.
                    \_ what does one have to do with the other???  I understand
                       perfectly how damaging they are.  To Bush in the current
                       polls and election cycle.  Around the world it means
                       nothing.  Everyone who hates us will continue to do so.
                       No one needs any new excuses.  When we're perfect they
                       simply fabricate reasons to hate us.  Now they have a
                       reason and they'll hate us.  I don't see a difference.
                       \_ What does one has to do with the other?  They
                          both reflect a lack of knowledge with things
                          outside the US.  Iraq is an international stage,
                          and it is also the focus of media all over the
                          world, and with our involvement there, the focus
                          of the US media.  If you don't want
                          international events to have repercussions on
                          you, stay home.
        \_ csuamotd/csuamotd does not work, what's the login?
2004/5/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30037 Activity:nil
5/4     Another hazing incident: US soldiers put harness on an Iraqi woman in
        her 70's and rode her like a donkey.
        \_ They turned me into a newt!
2004/5/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30032 Activity:high Edit_by:auto
5/5     Drudge scoops the big boys again:
        \_ keywords: Apache gunship helicoptor war video footage
        \_ That's because he posts 'scoops' without confirming them and often
           gets burned.  And he never posts retractions, of course.  Its a
           good thing for him that US libel law is so pathetically weak,
           otherwise he'd have to do actual research to back up his claims
           like them damn furrin papers do.  As for this latest claim, the
           video described sounds almost "too bad to be true" but meanwhile
           we shall see.  You may want to try some more reputable sources
           for your news, like one of the British papers.
           \_ 1) often?  prove it.  2) British?  Reputable?  You're better off
              with Drudge.  It's ridiculous to claim you'll get reputable news
           months ago:
              from "one of the British papers" unless you're some sort of
              freakish Anglophile who thinks anything British is automagically
              better than anything American.
        \_ It's an old video.  I downloaded and saw the whole thing (including
           the part where one of them is dumping an RPG in a field) several
           months ago.  ABC News was the first to run it on TV I believe.
           Part of the controversy was that they didn't show the part where
           they were dumping the RPG; only the part where they were getting
           blown to pieces.  You can go download the avi from the last URL I
           believe.  Finally, I did see this Drudge URL yesterday, but ignored
           it.  I notice it's not up on Drudge now, probably because someone
           pointed him to the snopes URL, and he realized it was "old news":
        \_ There were others along this line on CNN.  I was shocked at the
           lack of feet on it.  There was one with footsoldiers on patrol and
        \_ ob: You're an idiot.
           they come upon a wounded man on the road, sink a few more rounds
           into him just for kicks.  I thought I must have seen it out of
           context, but I don't think so.
           \_ I saw that too, but it was more like the guy was being put
              out of his misery, and the guy had been shooting at the soldiers.
2004/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30014 Activity:high
5/5     Man, I just don't get today's Doonesbury.  Maybe it's because I
        don't drink. http://www.ucomics.com/doonesbury/index.phtml
        \_ Wine is not a "populist" drink.  Bush has always appeared as
           "one of the regular joe".  Regular Joes drink Busch beer.
              \_ Ha, ha.  You funny man.
                 \_ No really, move to the South.  You'll understand.
                    Try Lumberton, Mississippi.
        \_ Isn't wine associated with the french?
           \_ Are we at war with Eurasia or Eastasia now?
2004/5/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30004 Activity:nil
        0/3 dude!
        \_ "The pattern and practice of the Saddam Hussein regime was to do
           exactly what you said, to murder and torture, and the killing
           fields are filled with mass graves. And equating the two, I think,
           is a fundamental misunderstanding of what took place" at Abu Ghraib
           - Rumsfeld
           \_ Well, let's see.  We've got what looks to be rape at Abu Ghraib.
              We've definitely got the torture.  And we've now got a little
              mass grave of our own in Falluja.  So where's the
              misunderstanding exactly?
              \_ Don't be obtuse.  The people the perpetrated these acts are
                 going to be held accountable -- probably to an extreme
                 considering the current political climate.  This stuff is
                 regarded as morally reprehensible in our culture and society.
                 This cannot be said of Saddam Hussein's regime.       -mice
                 \_ I've no doubt that some of these people will be held
                    accountable, but I'm doubtful that the chain of command
                    that likely created the climate that encouraged this
                    crap will be held responsible.
        \_ "I am not a lawyer, but what I have seen would qualify as
           abuse, not torture, so I am not going to address claims of
           torture." -Rumsfeld (doesn't he sound more like Clinton every day?)
2004/5/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29982 Activity:high
5/4     Sudan's deputy U.N. ambassador, Omar Bashir Mohamed Manis, said
        the United States had no right to accuse anyone of human
        rights violations, after allegations of abuses in Iraq (news -
        web sites) including mistreatment of Iraqis held in
        U.S.-run prisons. Images of the Iraqi prisoners "are fresh in
        the minds of all justice-loving people around the world," he
        \_ And how exactly would he know any justice-loving people?
        \_ The difference being that in countries like his shit like that and
           much worse happens everyday.  When it happens here and people know
           about it, it is stopped and the people doing it get jail time.
           People are people but our system is infinitely superior to the
           alternatives where torture is the status quo.
           \_ or, in his specific case, the status quo happens to be genocide
              right now.  of course, since it's arabs doing the genocide
              no one in the UN gives a shit, and since there's no oil involved
              the bush administration doesn't give a shit.
2004/5/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29969 Activity:nil
5/3     Is this Iraqi popping a boner?
        \_ Wouldn't you be?
        \_ And the Iraqis are complaining?  Oh, must be their wives who are
        \_ What will Warren Buffet say about this?
2004/5/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29968 Activity:high
5/3     Yahoo! News - Salvadoran Army Cited for Heroism in Iraq
        Quote: "The Spanish didn't fight, and only after a long delay agreed to
        send out their armored vehicles to help evacuate the wounded. Flores
        says he cannot question the Spanish decisions that day, but with a
        slightly sardonic smile adds that they "could have helped us sooner."
        \_ "So Salvadoran Cpl. Samuel Toloza said a prayer, whipped out
            his switchblade knife and charged the Iraqi gunmen...Toloza
            stabbed several attackers..."  Now THAT'S tough.
2004/5/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29965 Activity:insanely high
5/3     So what's happening to the oil in Iraq? Are we getting it all for
        free? Why no news coverage on it? Does the average American not want
        to hear about it? Guess the media is only interested in reporting the
        robbers getting shot at while leaving the bank. This reminds me of a
        quote "It's always easier to rob than to make your own".
        \_ No, we didn't go there to rob the oil. We went there to
           find WMD! Oh wait, we went there to liberate Iraq!! Oh
           wait, we went there to, to, to, well, the truth is, we do
           whatever we want because we can and there ain't nothing you
           can do about it!!
           \_ Sure there is. Terrorism is the answer to oppression
              from superpower. You think you can just bomb us because you
              feel like it? You treat us like dirt, we will strike you
              \_ I didn't know there were any Iraqis posting to the motd.
              where it hurts.
              \_ Yeah like how Spain and the Philipines are both super powers.
                 Here's the ob ad hominen: you're an idiot.
              \_ I didn't know there were any Iraqis posting to the motd.
           \_ Dubya went in there because Saddam was a bad man, who even
              if he didn't have WMD, would use them against the U.S. (by
              giving them to terrorists) some day.  Dubya also wants to make
              sure post-Saddam Iraq doesn't become a threat to the U.S.
              I think most Republicans, and some Democrats, understand this.
              The counter-argument is that Saddam had already been contained.
              I think some Democrats and some Republicans understand this.
              \_ Containment is never perfect and is subject to political winds
                 and whims.  Containment can only slow the inevitable.  In this
                 case, several of the countries that were supposed to be
                 helping contain were cashing in behind everyone's backs.
                 \_ Have you considered containment until you get a smoking
                    gun on WMD?
                    \_ The smoking gun might by a crater in a Western city.  I
                       am not prepared to wait for that.
                       \_ Isn't that what Homeland Security is for?  Also,
                          I don't think even the Bush administration thought
                          Iraq had any nuclear capability to give.  I believe
                          the best they could come up with, after the war,
                          was a scientist digging up centrifuge parts, saying
                          that they were stored until Saddam wanted to restart
                          the program.
                          \_ True but I have no problem with a better safe than
                             sorry policy.  And no, the HS department doesn't
                             stand a chance of keeping us 100% not-blown up
                             in a terrorist act.  It just isn't possible.  We
                             must do our best at home regarding security such
                             as better trained people, better equipment and
                             real world improvements like hardened cock pit
                             doors but that's all hindsight.  There will
                             always be some weakness that can be exploited to
                             create death and havoc.  Thus, we also need an
                             active foreign policy to find and crush our
                             enemies before they can create the capabilities.
                             Note that we're not discussing the *IF* nature of
                             what a Hussein or Al Qaeda group's goals and
                             plans.  No one questions that they'd nuke a major
                             Western city if they could.  We're only discussing
                             their current capability.  At some point in the
                             future they *will* have the capability so we need
                             to stop them now.  I won't go into the historical
                             "the west has been at war with islam since near
                             the birth of islam" bits.
                             \_ So, contain until you get a smoking gun.  With
                                a smoking gun, you stand a chance of being
                                like Bush Sr. and getting an international
                \_ And some of us knew that Saddam Hussein was no friend to
                   Al Qaeda, so the idea that he would give them WMD was
                   laughable. Bush's Crusade diverted America from far more
                   serious threats to our security.
                   \_ You knew?  Really?  The American intelligence establish-
                      ment still isn't certain.  And he doesn't have to give
                      Al Q. anything.  He had plenty of his own agents who were
                      perfectly capable of putting a nuke or some nasty bug in
                      a shipping container to the US.  He didn't need anyone
                      else.  Kaddafi managed a-OK to blow up a plane without
                      anyone else's help.  You think Hussein really needed
                      anyone else?  No, he just needed a nuke or a bug.
        \_ There are only two real solutions to the problem, which
           have worked throughout history. We kill all of them, like
           we did to the Native Americans (you don't hear about them
           wanting to take back the US do you, hehe), or, we treat
           them properly. We want to do the first, but the world it is
           today, it's no longer an option. We don't want to go with
           the 2nd option either, simply because "Why should we?".
           Capitalism is all about taking advantage of the other guy
           as much as possible. It will be against our nature to treat
           them properly, because we don't have to. This goes in the
           same way as people usually do the maximum that the law
           allows them to do without being considered a crime.
           Unfortunately there are no check and balance in the
           international world right now. We do a lot more than what
           the 'law' would allow us to do. So the other side has no
           choice but to engage in terrorism, as they also have no
           choice. Direct confrontation with us is not an option,
           because if they are that strong, we wouldn't have been able
           to take advantage of them in the first place. Unless we
           fundamentally change the way we deal with the rest of the
           world, especially the weak ones, terrorism will never end.
           \_ You should say there are three real solutions to the problem.
           \_ Capitalism is not about fucking the other guy.  It is about
              maximising profit for least effort.  A capitalist would not kill
              his best customer and take their wallet because then he would
              lose that customer's future business which is certain to exceed
              one wallet's value.  (This is aside from the moral and legal
              context of murder in our society).
           \_ So you think terrorism will end when we give them everything they
              want?  Do you understand that the core issue Islamic terrorists
              have with the West is that we exist?  Go look up the word "Wakf".
              Since you won't I'll give you the executive summary: all lands
              that were ever under Islamic control at any time in history are
              Muslim lands no matter how briefly, how long ago or what has
              happened since.  Spain getting bombed wasn't a random soft
              target.  Half of Spain was once under Muslim rule and hence is
              wakf land.  As for the rest of the world, that falls under the
              part about spreading Islam by the sword which is how Spain
              ended up in Muslim hands in the first place.  Know thy enemy.
              \_ Spain was bombed to affect the election, and to embarrass and
                 to put pressure on the U.S. with the resulting pullout of
                 Spanish troops.  The former head of Spain was all-Bush,
                 and the majority of Spanish people were against the war,
                 before and after the bombing.  I think you need to find a
                 better example.
                 \_ Yes, that's what the western press says.  Go read the Arab
2004/5/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26955 Activity:nil
5/1     General Suggests Abuses at Iraq Jail Are Encouraged (warm up part
        of intel interrogation)
        \_ Those pictures show why there should be no women or gays
           in the military.  What is shown is those pictures is
           nothing more than hazing.
2004/5/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:18852 Activity:very high
5/1     The 1st Amend says we can't abridge right to free political
        speech. How did this come to mean we have to air well-tuned
        propaganda on our national airways?  When did corporations begin to
        be counted as people for the purpose of free speech?  If you want to
        go the Founding Fathers route, remember that they had no clue that
        we would spawn an entire industry devoted to creating need for
        products (and, by extension, candidates).  I'm not a Communist, but
        I don't think you should get a bigger voice just because you make
        more money.
        \_ Sure, now figure out how to craft a law properly to make this happen.
           What we had passed recently clearly doesn't work for a number of
           reasons that have been stated already.  -- ilyas
           \_ It was a step in the right direction and a foot in the door.
              Let's put some pressure on that opening and wedge our way in.
              \_ Except a bad law is a step backwards, not forward.  It is
                 unlikely to be repealed, and will degrade political freedom
                 in the US.  I give no points for trying badly. -- ilyas
                 \_ I get where it didn't stop up all of the gaps, but even
                    reading back through Kai's motd, I have no idea where
                    this degradation of political freedom bit is justified.
                    \_ You haven't been reading kaismotd very carefully.
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ Sorry, o venerable Ilyas, but this wisdom remains
                          opaque to me.  Your reputation for being cranky,
                          however, is beginning to make sense.
                          \_ It's too bad people never tell me things to my
                             face (i.e. sign their names), with the possible
                             exception of Mr. Holub's famous 'you are an idiot'
                             line, although in his case I suspect he had
                             forgotten how to say anything else... -- ilyas
                             \_ you have to ask yourself why signing posts
                                is useful.  i very strongly believe that it
                                is non-useful, and that the main motivation
                                for signing is ego.  before you start blathering
                                about "accountability", let me point out that
                                first of all most people on the motd don't
                                know eacher in real life, so my knowing that
                                you are "ilyas" means nothing, and second of
                                all, signed posts are not verifiable in any
                                way and can be easily abused.  Finally,
                                signed posts lead directly to ad hominem
                                attacks which are just pointless(see above).
                                also, when people post anonymosely, they can
                                argue random sides of an issue to explore
                                different ideas rather than declare a personal
                                side of the issue and duke it out as a partisain
                                flame war.   and no, i'm not the guy giving
                                you a hard time in the above section of this
        \_ Is this just a freeper trying to make liburals look bad?
           \- if you ask a more pointed question, i may be able to answer
              in part. you raise too many issues. 1st amd law does distinguish
              between commercial speech and political speech ... it would be
              much tougher for a zoning law to be written that would disallow
              you to put "vote for X" sign in your front yard than "buy
              marlboro cigarettes". --psb
2004/4/30-5/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13512 Activity:moderate
4/30    Vietnam's Hero Still Grateful to Anti-War Americans
        "I would like to thank them," the 93-year-old veteran [Gen. Vo Giap]
        said on Friday of those Americans who opposed the war.
        \_ you know by now everyone knows that you are hiding freeper posts
           by using the ip address.
        \_ I would thank them too, cuz it stopped a senseless war at first
           \_ Even Yoda can speak better than this and he's just a sock
              puppet on steroids.
2004/4/30-5/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13507 Activity:nil
4/30    It's hell...everything will be destroyed
2004/4/30-5/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13487 Activity:high
4/30    http://csua.org/u/74q
        http://csua.org/u/74h [this one looks overloaded]
        Pix of the Iraqi POW torture.  One of the captions descrbies the
        picture as a man who was beaten to death by Americans.  That's
        BS, right?  Please tell me that's not true.
        \_ there are always things like this that happen in war. vietnam,
           korea, WWII, panama, etc. why don't you think "americans" are
           capable of this? when ppl are shooting at you, cursing you,
           and generally hate you for "liberating" them while shooting up
           their neighborhood, family, and friends...well, somethings
           gotta give. war isn't rational...it's irrational. even your
           friendly US police beats suspects, prisoners, etc. i've seen
           this with my own eyes.
           \_ But look at the friendly soliders smiling! It's all just fun and
           \_ US thrashed a city of 300k, killing hundreds because a small
              group of people killed and mutilated 4 US mercenaries, so
              does the above mean Iraqis should kill a few hundred
              Americans in revenge?
              \_ The rest of the population didn't help find them.  It's
                 called "aiding and abeiting."
                 \_ Yeah but just because a mob of a few hundred did this,
                    should you trash a city of 300k?  You don't think any
                    of those people will become terrorists?
                 \_ Given the number of unsolved murders in big cities, most
                    of the US should be firebombed....
                    \_ Most unsolved murders in the US don't have multiple
                       pictures of the perpetrators pasted in every paper
                       in the world.
                       \_ You've seen pictures? URLp?
                          \_ I saw the live film on TV.  You think pictures of
                             these assholes don't exist?  Are you for real?
                             \_ You saw a mob after the fact playing up for
                                the cameras. You didn't see these guys actually
                                mutilated on camera, did you?
                               \_ Hey!  For all we know John Kerry could have
                                   done it.
              \_ Well, that's the reality of war. The US has no choice, being
                 an occupying power they have to crack down on insurgency even
                 if innocents are killed. It's not like troops just go around
                 randomly killing passers-by. Do you think Saddam was nice to
                 insurgents under his rule?
                 \_ Seriously.  Do you think ANY regime that lasted long was
                    nice to insurgents?  If you don't stomp them, insurgents
                    tend to become revolutionaries.
                    \_ Exactly.  Nothing wrong with Saddam stomping the
                       Shitte uprising either.  Those dudes just want
                       a Shiite dominated theocracy kind of like Taliban.
                       The soccer stadium mass grave in Falluja is probably
                       comparable to the Shitte mass graves now.
        \_ "The Pentagon was really very concerned about broadcasting the
           pictures, and I think they had good reason," said 60 Minute
           executive producer Jeff Fager. "The idea that there are hostages
           being held in Iraq concerned us quite a bit in terms of broadcasting
           them. It wouldn't take long to get on Al-Jazeera at all." -BBC
           "But it was agreed for the photos to be shown this week because
           other news outlets had obtained similar pictures." -UK Daily Mail
           "Arab television stations led their newscasts Friday with
           photographs of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated by U.S. military
           police ... Al-Jazeera introduced the pictures by saying they
           showed the 'immoral practices' of Iraq's occupation forces." -AP
           Michael Jackson as lead photo -Major U.S. news sites
           \_ Humiliated?  If we hear one more time about some dimwit bitching
              about humiliation I say we nuke the place to glass and be done
              with it.  After all the mass murders, gassing, rape, and other
              abuses from the Saddam dictatorship, these bozos are whining
              about humiliation and how suicide bombs and mortars are the
              only answer to save their precious honor?  They have no honor or
              they would've killed Hussein decades ago.
              \_ Is this a troll?
                 \_ yeah, I can't tell either
                 \_ The Troll Defense.  When the nail is hit right on the head
                    quickly allude to it's possibly being a "troll" and hope
                    nobody takes a second to read it more carefully.
                    \_ now this is a troll.  The correct way to respond is for
                       op to just say "yes, it's a troll", or "no, it's not".
                       \_ no, it's not.  --op of that sub-thread
           \_ Don't worry, Pentagon has arrested at least 6 soldiers who
              leaked the photo and they will be sent to court martial.
              Cameras of any kind are now banned unless explicitly authorized
              by the high command.
              \_ It's comforting to see The Pentagon take aggressive action to
                 prevent this sort of thing from coming to light in the future.
                 \_ Hey, it worked for the coffins.
                    \_ Out of sight, out of our fucking minds.
                       \_ Idiot.  The rest of us don't need to see coffins to
                          know young Americans are dying in Iraq almost every
        \_ This is merely the tip of the iceberg. These "stupid"
           soldiers took these pictures because they think its fun,
           not wrong. You bet no pictures will be taken when they
           actually do torture/rape them. This is merely humiliation,
           not torture.
           \_ I think the young man anally raped by an interrogator
              would probably think different, but then again, there
              are no photos of that particular incident, so maybe
              that makes your point.
              \_ Raped?  URL?
2004/4/29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13467 Activity:moderate
4/29    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html
        US Troops torturing Iraqi prisoners.
        \_ Been there, done that, *and* have them on trial right now which
           is why you know about it.
        \_ eh, the article doesn't mention "torture" not even once
           abuse of prisoners, yes, and they should be punished for it, and
           it's a shame, and it reflects poorly on the U.S.
        \_ Correction:  Some scumbag troops were doing horrible things, and
           will be investigated by a military court.  Your title suggests it's
           still going on and is being done so with approval.
           \_ Less reported is all the secondhand reports that individual
              soldiers and units have been systematically stealing from
              the Iraqi populace.
           \_ hey, it works for al-jazeera :-P
           \_ don't be the citizen of a puppet government
        \_ compare to the crowds in IRAQ who drag bodies through the streets
           and hang them from bridges, and nothing is done to them?
           \_ compare to the thousands killed by the cluster bombs
              when we invaded IRAQ....
              \_ compare 9/11!!!!1!
                 \_ Pales in comparison to the number of innocent
                    Iraqis died since the war.
2004/4/29 [ERROR, uid:13457, category id '18005#3.5' has no name! , , Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13457 Activity:high
4/29    FYI, http://washingtonpost.com was the only place that had details on the
        eight U.S. troop deaths due to car bomb.  What happened was that
        this was an Army group dedicated to disarming IEDs.  While they were
        working on a road south of Baghdad, a station wagon drove up and
        exploded, killing eight U.S. soldiers and wounding four more.  Sucks.
2004/4/29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13450 Activity:insanely high Edit_by:auto
4/29    This isn't even mentioned on the CNN front page, and the eight troops
         dying is in the story's ninth paragraph.
      CNN:  "Elsewhere in Iraq, eight U.S. troops died in a car bombing
        Thursday and two others were killed in separate incidents, according
        to the U.S. military."
      What you can do is compare how it's handled on other news sites.
        \_ it was earlier this morning, when I first checked the news on
           http://cnn.com (~8am PDT)
           \_ Come to think of it, yesterday a front-page CNN article was
              titled, "Iraqis believe war did more harm than good", and by
              evening, it was, "Iraqis believe war did more harm than good,
              but think it was worth it."  What is going on over there, anyway?
        \_ This is one of the major problems with the 24 hour news cycle
           cnn runs on.  If you're ever had headline news running in the
           background while working on something, you'll notice the same
           thing.  Stories slip over the course of the day.  This is why
           newspapers won't die. --scotsman
           \_ So why is it that http://washingtonpost.com and http://nytimes.com, which do
              also maintain 24-hour news sites, do feature the eight U.S.
              troops killed in car bomb story prominently on their web sites?
              \_ "why newspapers won't die..."
                 \_ I'm saying that this news is not even half a day old,
                    and has not even made it to their print editions.  Yet,
                    for some reason the news is covered differently by
                    them than at CNN in this particular instance.
                  In fact, the http://cnn.com reporting today is on F/A-18s
                  dropping bombs, and the coverage yesterday or the day before
                  that was on AC-130s killing > 100 Iraqis (mostly insurgents).
                  I've been noticing a trend of CNN not reporting deaths
                  as prominently, and more on the effectiveness of
                  U.S. military power.
                  It was way, way obvious today, because 8 U.S. troop deaths
                  from a single car bomb is a very rare event, and yet it
                  is not covered well on http://cnn.com today.
                  Also note that I am not saying that this is right or wrong,
                  but I am first trying to establish whether this is an
                  accurate description.
2004/4/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13408 Activity:nil
4/27    So could they have made the Iraqi flag look any more like
        the Isreali one? More proof that Bush is an utter moron.
        \_ The governing council chose the flag.  Not to say that Bush isn't
           a moron, but this isn't a good example to use.
        \_ url-p.
           \_ http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/27/iraq.flag.ap/index.html
        \_ The old flag is better.
           \_ Yeah all that glory of god stuff on it is a good idea.  right.
        \_ You're an idiot.  It was chosen by the Iraqis from a set of 30
           entries submitted by other Iraqis.  Most people aren't that idiotic
           and obsessed.  "Oh! Boo hoo!  The Israeli flag has 2 blue bars and
           so does the new Iraqi flag!  It's a BushCo conspiracy!"  You=moron.
           \_ HAhahahaha.. *I* am an idiot? Ad hominem is the last
              resort of someone who is losing an argument.
              We shall see how the Iraqi's feel about it, eh?
              Early reviews aren't too favorable.
              \_ Yes, you are an idiot because you aren't smart enough to read
                 a sohrt article that said exactly who chose it and how that
                 came about and instead knee jerked your spluge over Bush who
                 had *nothing* to do with it.  If the colors on the Iraqi flag
                 are the worst you can come up with for Bush's crimes then
                 you're giving idiots a bad name.
                 \_ Iraqi Ruling Council == Quislings appointed by Bush
                    \_ Nice try but no cigar, kiddo.  It's a frigging flag.
                       Bush didn't sit down with Cheney and get on a video
                       call to the IRC and tell them which flag to pick.  You
                       aren't even worth ad hominen at this point.
                       \_ http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com
                    \_ I don't know about the flag, but you are right,
                       the governing council has quite a few lackeys.  worst
                       is chalabi.  I said long ago that this guy is
                       a criminal.  now even dumb and dumber knows chalabi
                       is bad for US endeavours in Iraq.
2004/4/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:13370 Activity:nil
4/24    Hey, where is the long vietnam war thread?  Did I miss any
        insights from psb?
        \- see http://csua.com
           for me vs AMC --psb
           \_ Wow. Pretty sad debate. I'm sure liberals and Democrats will
              be faulted for the failures in Iraq too. The next person to
              say Iraq == Vietnam needs to be slapped.
              \_ Yah -- the problem wasn't lefties or liberals, it was the
                 60's counter-culture and 'free love' social phenomenon.
                 Without the support of the people, the government was
                 never able to muster sufficient support for our (better
                 trained, better equipped) troops to hold onto any tangible
                 victory.  It was a pretty sad conflict.  Though there may
                 be some peripheral similarities to Vietnam, the conflict in
                 Iraq actually has a fair degree of popular support.
                 \_ And the guerilla warfare, lack of clear goals, lack of
                    cooperation between the branches, and an utter lack of
                    what would constitute winning the war certainly didn't
                    help.  Now, which war am I talking about?
                    \_ Stop. Stop right there. Vietnam and Iraq are two
                       different wars being fought for different reasons in
                       different parts of the world with different goals in
                       mind. They are DIFFERENT!
                    \_ Clear goal: democracy in iraq.  What would constitute
                       winning the war: democracy in iraq.  Utter lack of
                       cooperation between the branches: source-p.
                       You are repeating things you heard without thinking.
                       \_ That's a clear POLITICAL goal.  What's the clear
                          MILITARY goal?  We had a clear political goal in
                          Vietnam too.
                 \_ The Vietnam war had huge amounts of support until people
                    started doubting the bright and sunny forecasts and began
                    to see the effects on the vets returning.
        \_ What made Vietnam so terrible was the fact that everything that
           could be screwed up there, was.  Eisenhower screwed 'Nam for
           the French, JFK wouldn't let it die, LBJ tried to micromanage
           it, and made the rules of engagement ridiculous.  Nixon took a
           shot a fixing things, but popular support was gone, so he
           finally gave up, only to have congress completely screw Vietnam
           over so the South couldn't continue fighting on it's own.
           We've screwed somethings up in Iraq, but it's still nowhere
           near 'Nam.  Stop smokin' so much pot and come back to reality.
           \_ No. What makes Vietnam so terrible *for Americans* was retreat
              after so many years of war. Had Vietnam somehow stablized into
              a situation akin to Korea, it would have been touted as a huge
              success. The Vietnamese have their own view of the conflict
              in their country. POV is important here.
              \_ It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's "Captain Obvious!"
              \_ Believe me, if there was an option not to retreat, we would've
                 stayed. Despite what you hear in the 'free media', we retreated
                 because the PRC was engaged in the war and we had no other choice.
                 We retreated and and established diplomatic relationship with the
                 PRC. It was the only exit strategy. The PRC can afford keep
                 fighting the war, we can't. We also 'gave' up Taiwan alone
                 with Vietnam. You honestly think we would've done so if we had
                 a choice? So don't just say "oh why did we retreat", it's like
                 saying, oh why did we use the A-bomb. We did because we have
                 no other choice.
2004/4/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:13365 Activity:nil
4/23    Yeah, you counter-culture beatniks really emote the truth with
        these so-called pics of dead serviceman at http://thememoryhole.org
        I hope when YOU are dead, they showed pictures of YOUR CASKET.
        I am just glad it won't be blessed with an American flag.
        \_ Here you have before you a live Bush supporter.
           Don't get too close, they bite!
           \_ you're just saying that liberal crap because you don't really
              understand the policy.  this should clear it up:
                \_ despite the policy, i do wonder where all those corpses go
                \_ the *only* reason that these photos (or video) are not
                   released is so that public opinion does not turn against
                   any post-vietnam war. the gov't doesn't give a shit about
                   families feelings, let alone their health (e.g., agent
                   orange, gulf war syndrome, etc). Don't fool yourself into
                   always accepting the gov't line. "Trust no one". -Mulder
        \_ Talk to some of their families, who say they want the public to
           know how many are dying.
           \_ Look.  It's understandable that military families don't want to
              lose loved ones, but this is how war is.  I am sure _some_ of
              the military families dislike Bush and his policies, but so what?
              The public is fully aware of how many are dying, it's being
              trumpeted by CNN every single fucking day.  At any rate,
              50,000 >>> 700.
                \_ where do you get your 50k figure?  about 4 MILLION
                   died in the vietnam war.
                   \_ 50k combat US deaths, about 60k total US deaths around
                      Vietnam.  Did you notice that this thread was talking
                      about US casualties, not total casualties?
                   \_ Are you counting the *entire* Vietnam war which includes
                      the time the French were there and we weren't?  It was
                      roughly 2m Vietnamese dead during the time the US was
                      there.  40:1 is pretty god damned good.  This was a war
                      lost at home, not in the field.  If we "lose" in Iraq
                      it won't be because we lost on the ground.  As usual it
                      will be lost at home because of people like you.
                           \- Mr. D. Ass: wars are about achieving your
                              political objective, not maximizing your own to
                              enemy casualty rate. Rather than win/lose, ask
                              yourself what was the point of the US involvement
                              and then answer whether that goal was achieved
                              and eval whether it was "successful" on those
                              terms. While you are at it, you may want to
                              look up what city SGN is the airport code for.
                              "Let me speak honestly, frankly,  -Le Duc Tho to
                              openheartedly. You are a liar."    Super K
                              \_ Uhm...did you even read the post you're
                                 replying to?  I think you just reiterated his
                                 point, only with a bunch of lame ad hominem
                                 thrown in.
                              \_ Talk about missing the point.... After the
                                 Tet Offensive, the leftists in America forced
                                 us to finally leave, when in fact that very
                                 same assault was beaten back with minimal
                                 American losses and truly devastating losses
                                 to the enemy.  After the TO the enemy had no
                                 reserves or military strength.  The war was
                                 over.  We had won.  Except we didn't because
                                 it was lost at home.  We walked away after
                                 one of the biggest military victories in
                                 history and chalked up the whole thing as a
                                 military and political loss.  There was never
                                 a military loss.  The political loss was
                                 caused by people like the person I replied to
                                 above, at home.  --that poster above
                                 \- explaining why the war unfolded as it
                                    did or what were the side effects of the
                                    war whike interesting history is diff q
                                    than "was the war a success". if the war
                                    was conducted to prevent a communist
                                    victory, well that didnt happen, did it.
                                    you can say "enough was done to prevent
                                    the dominos from falling" but that also
                                    opens the response that "the domino
                                    theory as stated was wrong" since
                                    marginal changes in the balance of power
                                    didnt seem to be destabilizing. so you
                                    tell me first "what was the point of the
                                    american intervention in vietnam"? and
                                    then we'll talk about whether that was
                                    successful. Obviously the North `won' the
                                    Civil War in the sense that the union was
                                    preserved, slavery abolished, and ante-
                                    bellum souther culture and economics
                                    changed. However, the Union also had
                                    vastly higher wounded/killed. --psb
                                        \_ Good duck.  Back to the point: if we
                                           had stayed after the TO and not let
                                           ourselves be mislead by the left in
                                           this country, the North would have
                                           been beaten back and Vietnam would
                                           most likely be a mirror of what SK
                                           has become today.  Democratic,
                                           industrial, capitalist, generally
                                           successful.  We won Vietnam on the
                                           ground, but lost it at home.
                                        \_ S. Vietnam invaded, Cambodia
                                           invaded, Afghanistan invaded,
                                           Angola and Mozambique Communist
                                           revolutions, Nicarauga
                                           communist revolution
                                           ... seems to me the domino
                                           theory was right.  The Soviets
                                           realized they could not
                                           contest NATO in Europe so
                                           they pursued the third world.
                                           This is history of the
                                           Cold War 101.
                                           \- how did any of these affect
                                              US security? do you think the
                                              break down of sino-soviet
                                              harmony in the 1960, becoming
                                              smewhat open with the conflict
                                              on the ussuri river caused the
                                              a shift in the balance of
                                              power between E and W? If the
                                              "loss of china" didnt cause much
                                              security problems for the SU,
                                              dont you think it is odd to
                                              suggest angola, nic. cuba etc
                                              especially mattered in terms of
                                              the "big picture"? afganistan
                                              arguably was a bit of a change
                                              in doctrine. --psb
                                              \_ If you can't formulate
                                                 an explanation yourself
                                                 I don't think there's
                                                 much point in explaining
                                                 it. But Afghanistan
                                                 for example
                                                 offered a land bridge to
                                                 the middle east and
                                                 the goal was the
                                                 warm water ports of
                                                 Pakistan.  The outlook
                                                 was pretty bleak for
                                                 the US in the 1970s.
                                                 \- On vietnam see
                                        Leslie Gelb and Richard K Betts:
                                        The Irony of Vietnam and Bernard
                                        Brodie, War and Politics ... "many
                                        grave  ... decisions concerning 'nam
                                        were made on assumptions or premises
                                        which would not withstand any kind of
                                        logical scrutiny but were simply never
                                        challenged" ... e.g. domino theory.
                                        For similar on say Afganistan see
                                        Stephen Van Evera's ppr called
                                        something like "why states believe
                                        stupid things." Of course Waltz'79
                                        is an exceptional book. It has a
                                        reference: "as some saw early in the
                                        struggle, and as most saw later on,
                                        in terms of global politics little was
                                        at stake in vietnam (Steossinger'76,
                                        Chap 8, shows this was Kissinger's
                                        view)." --psb
                                        \_ Quoting a bunch of folks out of
                                           context doesn't add anything or
                                           make a point.  It does kind of turn
                                           me on though and makes you look
                                           very pseudo brainy.  Can I have your
                                           love child?
                      \_ Let me get this straight: with 30 years of
                         hindsight, you honestly believe that Vietnam was
                         a war worth fighting?  That we should have stuck
                         it out just to put yet another notch in the win
                         column?  I find that appalling, and I'd like to
                         know-- why?
                         \_ I am not the poster above, but whether Vietnam
                            was worth fighting depends on whether you believe
                            the containment strategy was a good idea.
                            It's a good question, and I am not sure I know
                            the answer.  Certainly rejecting Vietnam as a bad
                            idea just because a lot of people died seems wrong.
                              -- ilyas
                            \_ I am not the poster above.
                               While containment is arguably an ok idea,
                               Vietnam turned out to be a bad place to do
                               it.  American arrogance and racism alienating
                               the Vietnamese did not help.  Should've
                               recognized the mistake and futility earlier
                               and taken a step back and done the containment
                               at the border of Thailand.
                               \_ Your argument is different from the guy above
                                  you, he says: "Vietnam itself was a bad war",
                                  while you say something much weaker:
                                  "Vietnam execution had mistakes".  Certainly
                                  this is true.  I don't believe there was
                                  institutional racism in Vietnam, but I am
                                  not a student of that war (I find it to be
                                  kind of a boring war, in fact I find all
                                  American wars to be boring for some reason).
                                    -- ilyas
                                  \_ Sure, but execution is almost
                                     everything.  Your execution should not
                                     be contrary to your purpose for the war.
                                     Also, one has to ask if US's concern
                                     for the livelihood of the Vietnamese
                                     or just view it as a pawn in a global
                                     fight against communism.  Did US really
                                     cared if 1 million or 4 million
                                     vietnamese died?  At that point in
                                     time racism was still institutionalized
                                     in America itself, why do you not
                                     believe it's in Vietnam too?
                                        \_ 25 million Russians and
                                           10 million Germans died in
                                           WWII - was this also a racist
                                           war?  As with all Communist
                                           insurrections, the war is cast
                                           in terms national liberation
                                           by a cadre at the top.  Once
                                           the fighting has ended the
                                           common people and footsoldiers
                                           realize they have
                                           been duped and, if they are
                                           not subsequently assasinated,
                                           find themselves living as
                                           serfs in a totalitarian
                                           \_ Nazi belief in racial
                                        superiority certainly played
                                        a role in the decision to
                                        invade Russia.  I don't know
                                        what you mean by "racist war".
                                        I did not say that racism is
                                        the sole driver of the wars.
                        \_ Vietnam was conceptually similar to Korea - was
                           the Korean War a good idea?  Considering
                           S. Korea is the 11th largest economy in the world
                           I'd say so.  Vietnam was won.  South Vietnam
                           was free and democratic for two years until the
                           leftists in Congress that Kerry epitomized
                           decided to
                           withdrawl all military and financial support
                           to Saigon.  N. Vietnam, backed by the Soviets and
                           China, violated the Treaty of Paris and invaded
                           not only S. Vietnam but also Cambodia.
              \_ your arithmetic expressions holds true.  so at what point
                 are the deaths too much? 7000?
                 \_ One wonders if the US pulled out of Vietnam due to casualty
                    aversion or something else. -- ilyas
                        \_ Because of leftists in gov't and Congress.
              \_ Yeah, this is just like Vietnam.
        \_ Soldiers who die in the line of duty deserve to be honored, both
           in private ceremonies and in public.  There is no shame in dying
           for your country, nor is there shame in sending men and women to
           die for their country.  Either take pride in them and honor them
           publicly, or admit that you have not the courage of your
           convictions and you've asked them to die for a farce.
           \_ there is plenty of shame in sending men and women to die
              needlessly for their country.
              \_ Don't blame the soldier, blame the Commander(s) in Chief
                 \_ Starting with jimmie carter who proved to the islamic
                    fascists that terrorism can work again a super power.
                    \_ rofl, terrorism has always worked.  most rebellions
                        start out as "terrorism"
2004/4/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13364 Activity:nil
4/23    Thorough insight into Clark's career and American politics. (long)
2004/4/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13361 Activity:nil
4/23    Good thing the UN defines International morality!
2004/4/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13339 Activity:nil
4/22    More evidence of corruption in the UN's oil for food program:
        http://tinyurl.com/2p4qw (abcnews.go.com)
        \_ so, we still need the UN in Iraq, kickbacks are ok.
        \_ This is just an orchestrated lynching by the Republicans to try
           to discredit the U.N.  Bush is just trying to smear an organization
           that has the moral authority to stand up to his bullying.
           \_ Well said! -- UN defender #1 fan
           \_ hey, corruption is corruption.  however, I would still have
              preferred the U.S. not to have gone to war and found zilch
              on WMD.  Responsibility goes all the way to the top.
              \_ Bingo!  Sack Kofi Annan for corruption, sack Saddam Hussein
                 for being a dictator, and sack George W. Bush for lying to
                 get us to invade.
        \_ Saddam was just greedy. He should have spread out the corruption
           to cover more people like the current Iraqi government. Of course,
           there's a lot more US money now than UN O4F money plus the US has
           backed the idea of no accountability. US corruption is OK!
        \_ I thought Financial Times or some other British media published
           a report saying that as much as 20% of Iraq's recontruction fund
           went to kickback and other thing.
        \_ Hmm... let's compare the UN's handling of corruption with the
           current administration's handling of leaks.  The UN found out
           about the corruption and immediately instigated it's own internal
           inquiry.  The WH found out about the "leak" and immediately
           defended itself.  The investigation turned serious, the UN decided
           to appoint an independent investigator.  The WH, after enormous
           media pressure, finally decided to let John Ashcroft, that
           independent and objective AG, investigate.
           \_ Umm... The UN's handling wasn't THAT good.  They tried to
              to hide it and avoid it for years.
           \_ Immediately?  The rest of us knew years ago.  I don't think the
              word "immediate" means what you think it means.
2004/4/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:13332 Activity:nil
4/22    CIA operation missed North Korean leader but killed 3,500 civillians.
        \_ I'm be impressed if the CIA could pull that off.  Really, even
           missing Kim Jong Il, this kinda thing is gonna cause serious
                   \- Greetings, Earthlings!
                      \_ What?  I don't get it.
                         \- YMWTGF(kim jong il greetings earthlings) --psb
                            \_ Ok, what does YMWTGF stand for?  I even
                               googled it.
                               \- YMWTGF(YMWTGF) -> nil --psb
                            \_ Yo Mothertrucker Wastin mah Time, Google For ..
                            \_ You must have _this_ IQ to ride this thread.
           problems.  Making it even MORE difficult for NK to get oil...
           \_ Maybe it's a NK conspiracy to blame the explosion on a terrorist
              act on the CIA so that NK can declare war on the US and take
              over SK while we are still tied up in Iraq.
              \_ NK is in no shape to take over SK.  Its nuclear project
                 is a last ditch attempt at survival.
              \_ Yeah, that would be a pretty bad idea for old NK.  Not
                 that I don't think Kim Jong Il can't be that stupid...
                 Basically all NK has left is its ability to cause more
                 destruction that SK wants to put up with.
        \_ What little believability there is left disappears if you consider
           Dubya as the one squishing the axis of evil
                      \_ actually, he is in the process of trying to squish
                         Afghanistan elements and Iraq, so I guess it's
                         possible he just went after North Korea!
           \_ Well, some idiot in the planning assumed that communist train
              must always run on schedule and so caused a delayed explosion.
           \_ Does CIA always claim responsibility in mainstream media?
        \_ How do we know the CIA wasn't involved in the Kennedy assassination?
           Well, he's dead, isn't he?
        \_ MASS GRAVES!
           \_ DEAD ARMENIANS!
           \_ No no.  You're not using it right.  MASS GRAVES only applies to
              Iraq threads.  IRAQ IS THE STANDARD THREAD!
              \_ You fool!  Standards like that will destabilize the
                 Middle East for years to come!
                 \_ Why do you hate America?
                    \_ The only way to make this thread more generic is to
                       censor it.
                       \_ Only liberuls censor generic threads.
2004/4/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, ERROR, uid:13328, category id '18005#2.5' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:13328 Activity:nil
4/21    http://washingtonpost.com has a very interesting story on the front page now
        storying the decapitation strike, as excerpted from Plan of Attack.
        \_ What is csua login for WP?
        \_ I don't get it... Bush want to decapitate Saddam first, then
           get rid of anyone in the Baapst party?
2004/4/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13322 Activity:nil
4/21    Anyone have any insight on what is involved in war planning that
        it would cost $700 million?
        \_ 20-30K more U.S. soldiers for 3+ months longer (and this is only
           with respect to the $700 million figure)
           \_ Planning.  Not deployment.
              \_ Who says planning costs $700 million?  From what I've read,
                 this is total cost (and is an underestimate).
                 \_ This is in reference to the alleged $700 million taken
                    from the fund authorization for Afghanistan action to
                    form a new Iraq war plan.
        \_ It takes 700 million dollars to plan this shit?? fucking dickheads!!
2004/4/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13314 Activity:nil
4/21    Doonesbury's got me wondering: are there any stats for the number
        of soldiers maimed in the current war?  I've heard the new body
        armor is superb at protecting the torso, but that means (potentially)
        more soldiers losing limbs instead of dying.  Does "700 dead" tell a
        reasonably accurate story?
        \_ An old article, but it does begin to address your query.
           I would imagine the numbers have increased quite a bit given the
           past month's events. -- ulysses
        \_ 700 is not purely accurate no matter how you slice it. It's just
           the number dead in Iraq from hostile and non-hostile action. The
           number of wounded is a much higher ratio than most war conflicts
           due to improved body armor, equipment, supply, and tactics.
           Details: http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
        \_ a much more interesting question to ask is how many civilian
           iraqi casualties have there been? would it suprise you to find
           out that it's >10x this number?
2004/4/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13302 Activity:nil
4/21    Republicans will have to rename cigars next. "Freedom cigars"?
        http://csua.org/u/6zl (Al-Jazeera)
        \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ What does this phrase mean?  Why do you keep posting it?  No
              one ever responds, it makes no sense, it never seems to be
              in any sort of context.  Please explain.
              \_ It started as a spoof of hardcore neocons who seemed to
                 challenge any criticism of the war or the President as
                 unpatriotic. It's since become a sort of catchphrase offered
                 up any time anyone says or does something not in direct
                 support of the war.  You know, like RIDE BIKE! or ED!
                 \_ ED!  ED IS THE STANDARD EDITOR!
                 \_ If this is true, it will destabilize the Middle East
                    for years to come.
                    \_ here we go again, you are not bein loyal to our
                       great leadership in the time of crisis.
                       \_ Then again, I also think Bush himself again
                          and again bring entire nation into danger... just
                          like the leader of German's National Socialist Party
                          did 60 years ago.
                          \_ "entire nation into danger"? I'm afraid to
                             walk down the street! You do not know what
                             danger is, boy.
                          \_ German street was very safe after they got rid
                             of all the commie mutants and before the Red
                             Army marched in with our help.
2004/4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13294 Activity:nil
4/20    http://tinyurl.com/367ct
        Like I said the very day they did it, disbanding the Iraqi
        army was a huge mistake, and shows gross ineptitude.
        NYTimes above and a recent full page WSJ article both
        supported this view, which is obvious in hindsight.
2004/4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13289 Activity:nil
4/20    http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
        How can Wolfowitz claim with a straight face that he has
        not been planning to attack Iraq for years?
        \_ This whole WMD was a brilliant republican smokescreen for
           the masses. Now another republican wants to reintroduce
           the draft. If that happens, let's see how many of you
           draft-age neo-conservative diehard republicans will go,
           and who won't. Prob mommy and daddy will know someone who
           knows someone and you'll get to stay home even though "you
           wanted to go".
           \_ I don't know about brilliant.  I don't think anyone believed
              it.  All the people I know who wanted to invade Iraq
              (including myself) had better reasons.  As for the draft,
              I've heard that out of far more democrats than republicans.
              It also seems pretty clueless to assert that all
              republicans have connections to get them out of a draft...
              \_ You don't think *anyone* believed the WMD thing?  are you
                 really that dumb?  Fine, I believe you and your freinds didn't.
                 Neither did I.  But Joe Sixpack not only believed the WMD
                 line, they believed Iraq was responsible for 9/11.
                 \_ Ok, perhaps *anyone* is a little strong, if there
                    are people dumb enough in the world to believe in
                    Wicca, I suppose someone might have believed the WMD
                    thing.  And I'll believe that Joe Six-pack believed
                    it, as stated by the President.  But not this "There
                    are big piles WMD everywhere in Iraq, and we'll just
                    waltz in and find them!"  THAT was a retarded strawman
                    set up by the Dems.
                    \_ "We know where they are. They're in the area around
                       Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north
                       somewhat." --Donald Rumsfeld, 30 March 2003
                       \_ Which is "We know where they are.  They're somewhere
                          inside Iraq."
                          \_ The UNSCOM team repeatedly asked the US to share
                             their intel with them to help them in their search.
                             Did we give them anything?  "We know where they
                             are" is very different from "We know there are
                             stockpiles somewhere in Iraq."
                    \_ no, it was set up by e.g. Donald "we know where they
                       are" Rumsfeld and his merry men.
                    \_ Wasn't it something like over 75% of Americans believe
                       in a literal Hell, but only .1% believe they will end up
                    \_ There was one very loud and opinionated Bush backer
                       who posted repeatedly in the motd that "everyone"
                       believed that there were WMD in Iraq.
                       "Ok, asshole, back here in the real world, the
                       entire world is on public record as believing there
                       there were WMD in Iraq in the 198 post-inspector era.
                       Thank you."
                       Don't you remember him?
                       \_ Yeah.  Officially, the CIA thought Iraq probably
                          had WMD -- there was lots of circumstancial evidence
                          but no smoking gun.  Cheney, however, departed from
                          this and said Iraq had them.  You can expect the
                          rest of the world probably felt what the CIA felt.
                          Tenet, though, I don't know where he got "slam dunk"
                          case on Iraq, though.
                     \_ Why are you picking on Wicca?  It's no more ludicrous
                        than any other religion.
                        \_ You, my friend, don't know much about religion.
                           \_ Arrogant fuckwad.
                           \_ Ok, prove me wrong.  What about Wicca is more
                              ridiculous than most other religions?
                              \_ the purpose of religion is to enslave and
                                 brainwash the masses and to make money
                                 for the leaders.  hence succesful religions
                                 include christianity, islam, judaism,
                                 and scientology.  Wicca is a failure.
                                 \_ That's just one category of religions.
                                    Other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism,
                                    and ancient Greek/Roman religion didn't
                                    have greedy priesthoods at heart.
                                    \_ heh heh heh .. yea right.
                                       \_ well, ok nevermind.
                                    \_ Read up on medieval Tibet theocracy
                                       sometime. -- ilyas
                                       \_ or talk to anyone who's dealt
                                          first hand with the horseshit
                                          politics and ego tripping that
                                          goes on among the cult leaders
                                          in a typical American Zen monestary.
                              \_ Fer starters: The origin.  Most religions
                                 at least attempt to trace their origin to
                                 some authority.  "So-and-so communicated
                                 with god and learned this:" or "So and so
                                 WAS God and said this.." etc.  Wicca is
                                 just some people who thought druids were
                                 cool, and made up so rituals that might
                                 be sort-of like what druids did.  Maybe
                                 admitting that just makes them honest,
                                 but personally I think it makes them
           \_ Not to mention, he's right on every point.
              \_ Except for the whole "containment not working" thing.
                 \_ I'm not sure by what mesure containment could have
                    been considered working, except that he didn't attack
                    Kuwait again.
                    \_ No WMD. Not a threat to his neighbors. That is what
                       is usually described as "working."
                       \_ MASS GRAVES!  GASSED OWN PEOPLE!
                          \_ Give me a timestamp, and let's see how we felt
                             about the regime at the time.
                          \_ Even conservatives say that although the reasons
                             were just, the execution on post-war Iraq has
                             been terrible.
                             \_ Come on guys, if anything needs its own motd
                                shorthand its the ranting about mass graves
                                and gassing of the Kurds.  Its certainly more
                                common than any true threads about RIDE BIKE
                                or ED IS THE STANDARD.  In conclusion, MASS
                          \_ Our friend in the fight against the Ayatollah.
           \_ New York Senator Charles Rangel, a Democrat, wants to reintroduce
              the draft
2004/4/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13274 Activity:nil
4/19    Hehe, here it comes... Kofi going down for bogus Iraqi oil for food
2004/4/19 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13273 Activity:nil
4/19    http://washingtonpost.com has an excerpt from Plan of Attack.  Powell
        being "out of the loop" aside, you can read about the Cheney-Powell
2004/4/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:13272 Activity:nil
4/19    Why is this not all over the news.
        Jordan King says WMD Vx gas attack stopped. Al Qaeda/Syrian
        connection suspected.
2004/4/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13265 Activity:nil
4/18    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/17/international/middleeast/17BOOK.html
        "You're sure?" Mr. Powell is quoted as asking Mr. Bush in
        the Oval Office on Jan. 13, 2003, as the president told him he had
        made the decision to go forward. "You understand the consequences,"
        he is said to have stated in a half-question. "You know you're going
        to be owning this place?" ... In Mr. Woodward's account of the
        meeting between Mr. Bush and Mr. Powell in January 2003, the
        president is described as having simply informed the secretary of
        state of his decision to go to war in Iraq, as part of a 12-minute
        meeting in which Mr. Bush made a conscious decision not to ask Mr.
        Powell for advice. But, according to the book, Mr. Bush did ask Mr.
        Powell "Are you with me on this?" and told him, "I want you with
        me." Mr. Powell is quoted as having replied: "I'll do the best I
        can. Yes sir, I will support you. I'm with you, Mr. President."
        \_ How about getting the Saudi's to agree to manipulate oil prices
           in an attempt to influence an American election? Isn't that
           against the law?
        \_ I enjoyed Mr. Powell's rebuttal.  It amounted to, "What the crap?
           What kinda idiot IS Woodward?  I WORKED on that plan!"
           \_ Yes, Powell is discrediting Woodward's account: (dang -op)
              \_ Powell and Woodward went through exactly this a little over
                 10 years ago.  Woodward wrote an account of the Gulf War,
                 spun up Powell's role as a "reluctant warrior," created
                 lots of controversty, sold lots of books, and then was
                 slapped down by Powell, and when no one would listen,
                 by Bush Sr.  My source for this is Powell's autobiography.
              \_ Another silly question, what does this ending mean ^^^^
                 (dang -op)?  I couldn't finger either a dang or an op.
                 \_ "dang" as in "darn".  And -op means "from original poster".
                    \_ Wow, a kind and useful post on the motd!  You are a
                       man of great magnitude!  You have our gratitude!
              \_ All partisan politics aside, Powell has given so much for
                 this administration and has demonstrated a loyalty to this
                 country bigger than his pride.  I hope he lands on his feet
                 no matter which way the election goes. --erikred
                 \_ I also agree that Powell stayed in Dubya's lineup to make
                    sure he didn't fuck things up as much as Bush Jr. could.
        \_ I really feel sorry for Powell. He's had to deal with a lot of
           shit when instead he could have had a great tour
2004/4/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13240 Activity:nil
4/16    Time To Give Ritter His Due:
        \_ send the twink to Syria and find the WMD
        \_ I'm can't find any relevant mention of Ritter on the page but I
           enjoyed the message board.  Thanks.
           \_ Hackworth gives the most honest assessment of the Iraq
              situation from the "grunts" point of view that I have
              been able to find.
              \_ honest assessment?  How would *you* know?  Have you been there
                 to compare and evaluate or does "honest" really mean "the guy
                 who most agrees with my axe grinding opinion"?  This clown
                 says we should put Ritter, a known liar and bribe taker, on
                 the WMD probe in Iraq because we can count on Ritter to tell
                 us the truth.  Yes, this makes a lot of sense in some
                 \_ At LEAST you could have said Ritter was a known sex
                    pervert.  But you just had to use labels ("liar",
                    "bribe taker") that are not well known at all, if true.
                    Sounds like a right-wing radical to me!
                    \_ Go do your own searching for how Ritter made $300k
                       direct from Saddam's pocket.  Your ignorance is not my
                       problem, it's yours.
                       \_ Even supposing this is true (and I'm not convinced
                          by far) if misses one key bit.  RITTER TOLD THE
                          TRUTH.  See how that works?
                          \_ No.  There's a subtle but important distinction
                             between the truth and what Ritter said.  Ritter
                             said what he was told to say which changed
                             substantially between the last time he was on the
                             ground in Iraq and when he got $300k in bribes.
                             The truth is something that doesn't change based
                             on income.  See how that works?  The information
                             is easily available.  I'm not going to spoon feed
                             you things that you can find in seconds that have
                             been discussed at length on the motd before.
                             Ritter has zero credibility.  There are plenty of
                             others you could choose from that are actually
                             honest, not paid off, and consistent in their
                             words; Ritter is not one of them.  He's a fool and
                             a Hussein pawn at best and a traitor and criminal
                             at worst.  Find a new hero.
                             \_ whatever his motives, his statement that Iraq
                                was not a threat to the US has proven to be
                                true.  Well, at least it would have been true
                                if we didn't go over there like we wanted to
                                remake "Blackhawk Down" and get ourselves
                                involved in local politics we don't understand.
                                \_ His statement?  Which statement?  The one
                                   before or after he got bribed by Hussein?
                                   It's almost sad how you completely miss and
                                   seem to intentionally ignored this key
                                   point.  Ritter is on record with multiple
                                   statements regarding Iraqi WMD.  That's a
                                   fact.  He was paid ~$300k by Hussein after
                                   he left Iraq: fact.  His statements
                                   regarding Iraqi WMD changed after he was
                                   paid off: fact.  You need to find a new
                                   hero.  There are many honorable men and
                                   women, both foreign and domestic who agree
                                   with your agenda who have impeccable
                                   reputations and whom I and others hold in
                                   the highest regard.  Ritter is not nor ever
                                   will be one of those.  Your feeble attempt
                                   to change the subject to anti-Bush rantings
                                   about his cowboy approach to the world are
                                   irrelevent and ignored.
2004/4/15-16 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13221 Activity:high
4/15    "I mean, one year after the liberation of Iraq, the revenues of the
        oil stream is pretty darn significant. One of the things I was
        concerned about, prior to going into Iraq, was that the oil fields
        would be destroyed, but they weren't. They're now up and running. And
        that money is -- it will benefit the Iraqi people [and my friends].
        It's their oil, and they'll use it to reconstruct the country."
                -- President Bush
        \_ Whoah! "Pretty Darn Significant" -- I guess the invasion won't cost
        so darn much after all?
           \_ how do you measure the cost of 10,000 iraqi civilians killed
              by accident?
              \_ What do you care?  Do you hate America?
              \_ nice little troll
              \_ duh.  by barrels of oil.
                 \_ Barrels of oil imported from Saudi Arabia?
2004/4/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13212 Activity:high
4/14    Life in a U.S. convoy
        \_ csua@csua.com / csua
        \_ motd@csua.berkeley.edu / csuamotd
           \_ Sorry, I don't understand this at all.  What are these email
              \_ logins and passwords to the site above so you don't have
                 to register yourself.  thought about adding your obligatory
                 motd insult here, but decided to just be mr. nice.
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13207 Activity:kinda low
4/14    Why We Will Never Abandon Iraq
        \_ This article has more guts in it's pinky finger than most
           do in their intestines.
        \_ The title should read, "No Matter How Much Bush Fucked It Up,
           We Have To Stay"
           \_ No, it should say "No Matter How Much Clinton Fucked It Up,
              America will do the Right Thing."
              \_ I think you're talking about Al Qaeda, not Iraq, and even
                 that's a subject of great argument
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13206 Activity:nil
4/14    Minister Franco Frattini told Italian state television that the
        nation's ambassador to Qatar viewed a portion of the videotaped
        execution and confirmed that the slain hostage was Fabrizio
        Quattrocchi, who was working in Iraq as a private security guard.
        ... Al-Jazeera said it did not broadcast the tape because it was too
        graphic. ... In a statement delivered with the tape, the
        hostage-takers blamed Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi for
        Quattrocchi's slaying ... and went on to say that the hostage-takers
        will kill one hostage at a time until all their demands are met. -CNN
        \_ Yes, it is Berlusconi's fault that this guy chose to go to Iraq as
           a private citizen working for a private company in a private
           capacity as a security guard for a private target.  The bastard!
2004/4/14-15 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13205 Activity:high
4/14    A hospital official in Fallujah claims many of the 600 victims who've
        died in the weeklong U.S. Marine crackdown in Fallujah were women,
        children and the elderly. But Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said an
        investigation of the dead will likely discover "95 percent of those
        were military age males." -April 11

        Just before dawn Wednesday, however, AC-130 Spectre gunships launched
        a devastating punitive raid over a six-block area around where the
        convoy was attacked, firing dozens of artillery shells that shook the
        city and lit up the sky. Marine officials said the area was virtually
        destroyed and that no further insurgent activity had been seen there.
        -April 14
        \_ Why are women and the elderly exempt? Kids, too, if they are
           gonna shoot (e.g. during the Iran-Iraq conflicts).
           \_ Basically Al Jazeera shows injured/dead babies on TV because
              they think the U.S. can offer no defense.  The idea is similar
              with women, children, and old people.

        Just before dawn Wednesday, however, AC-130 Spectre gunships launched
        a devastating punitive raid over a six-block area around where the
        convoy was attacked, firing dozens of artillery shells that shook the
        city and lit up the sky. Marine officials said the area was virtually
        destroyed and that no further insurgent activity had been seen there.
        -April 14
2004/4/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13183 Activity:high
4/13    Books many motd residents probably need.  (About the Bush cabinet,
        good and bad)
        \_ Card is a total ass and buffoon.
           \_ He could learn a lot from you. -- ilyas
2004/4/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13140 Activity:high
4/8     yup another day of gun fire and bombs, can't believe this shit.
        cnn should be taken off the air, the only thing they are reporting is
        the fucking 911 BS when peope are getting fucking shot and killed left
        and right out here we are at fucking war and it is like no one gives a
        but you know the us is fucked no matter what if - we stay massive more
        people are going to get killed if we leave iraq totally falls into
        civil war and 10's of thousands of guys will die and it will be our
        fault for leaving it will because WE started it- oh man this is
        really rewally ugly and the fucking news in the states isn't reporting
        a damn thing they say 6 poepl died.. fuck that, it's not how many
        people DIED it's how many people can die - one hit at the dining
        facility and 100-200 guys will go down in one shot- that will sure
        wake people up to the shit going down here - kinneY
2004/4/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13139 Activity:high
4/9     well looks like bits and pieces of what has happened are finally
        leaking out 1. us is suspending operations in Fallujah, well ya
        that is because we are getting our butt kicked and the fucking
        marines are probably blowing up some mosques.  2. 9 us guys die
        on convoy, it is really bad outside, hell it is bad in here
        god knows what else is going to be leaked as the day goes on, we
        can see some major fires on the horizon, notice how I gave
        everyone the heads up to this over the weekend- hell everyone
        here knew what was potentially going to happen and the damn news
        media was just clueless or chose not to report the threat
        a lot of contractors are being evaculated- of course us fluor guys
        are staying (for now) hell even our client is headed for the
        gate.  Can only imagine what the guys from bechtel and kbr and
        parsons are doing. Figure a lot of guys are heading out of here.
        Of course this is why they pay us so much- but nothing is worth
        The financial mess this will cause is just amazing- i figure we
        will face a 250K/day claim from our subs for delay and standby
        due to military action. That is going to add up very very
        quickly. of course fluor is just going to make 2-3% on everything
        we spend and it is all reimbursable (we hope).
          anyway all we need are some beers and lawn chairs- it's a
        beautiful day 95 sunny, just another day on the beach. - kinney
2004/4/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13136 Activity:high
4/12    well finally the us is finally releasing the death tool from recent
        activity. These bastards just didn't want to tell the public just how
        bad things got last thursday and friday, honestly I would not be
        surprised if the count just keep going higher
          the past 2 days have been somewhat calm, but there is a lot of talk
        about all hell braking loss. you just can't stop someone with a gun
        defending his home against unwanted invaders without massive deaths,
        I mean we are seriously on the offensive in a foreign land going up
        against defnde people- this is not a good situation. But alas there
        might be light at the end of the tunnel, Sadr is just trying to get
        power, that is how everything here is run- he knows he has to
        negotiate in order to get out of this alive with his power still
        intact, so would not be surprised to here of some "settlement"
        - kinney
        \_ ok, look.  If you're reallly reporting straight from Iraq to the
           motd that's pretty cool, but could you PLEASE provide context for
           these posts?  Are you in the army?  marines?  a contractor? tourist?
           where are you?
           \_ he mentioned Flur in another post, which probably means he's
              constructing infrastructure of some kind (I see mention of water<
              and electrical in central/south iraq) -chialea
           \_ civilian contractor working on iraq reconstruction. (our camp
              -fluor daniel-is located within camp taji)
              http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/taji_m.htm -kinney
        \_ This is the equivelent of political spam.  Instead of posting
           this whole guys blog here, why not just provide a link and let
           us read it ourselves?
        \_ Kinney is a contractor.  This is from one of his emails.  He does
           not have a web site.  Don't delete this. -dans
        \_ 4/11  [ I said, no spam, bitch.  Just post a link ]
           \_ He's not spamming the motd.  This is a first-hand report and he
              has unreliable net access.
2004/4/10-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13127 Activity:high
4/10    Good balanced article on Economist.  US still has a window of
        opportunity to make things work in Iraq.
        "It was one of the worst weeks so far. But it would still be
        wrong to write Iraq off"
        \_ I'd like to point out for the umpteenth time that NOBODY-- not
           even the Berkeley liberals-- wants the US to "write Iraq off".
           We are opposed to the flimsy justification for this war, and the
           continued mishandling of it.
           \_ how do you figure it should be handled at this point?  please
              don't say "bring in the UN!".  they were already there and Kofi
              pulled them out after a single bombing after their local
              directors ignored their own security people's advice.
              \_ Turn the country over to the UN or some other multinational
                 co-alition, maybe the Arab League.
                 \_ Duh, where have you been?  I just told you the UN turned
                    tail at the first sign of trouble.  Do you read?  Watch the
                    news?  Anything?  Or do you just make this shit up as you
                    go?  The Arab League?  Ah, yes, genius plan!  We're there
                    right now trying to create a democracy of some sort and you
                    want to turn it over to the most oppressive dictators in
                    the modern world.  Stick with html and java.
           \_ You haven't been walking around campuses recently, or gone to
              Berkeley-style bookstores of a certain variety, I take it?
              And not seen those 'BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!' posters?
              This is in LA, btw, not Berkeley.  Berkeley is likely a lot
              worse.  I could have sworn I saw the same guys with the
              'END IRAQ SANCTIONS NOW!' posters just a year ago. -- ilyas
              \_ I live in a town where democrats outnumber republicans
                 13 to 1, with several universities within a couple miles.
                 all my freinds are democrats or greens or way out leftists
                 of some other type, and no one i know thinks we should just
                 pull out, and i have seen no signs to that effect.  perhaps
                 LA is just full of stupid ass tools?  why the fuck else
                 would they have decided to live in LA?
                 \_ Look, dude, I am happy that your far out leftist friends
                    are more reasonable, but your "NOBODY" claim is simply
                    false, I would say to the tune of 5% of the population
                    (at least).  In fact, next time I am at UCLA, I am
                    going to take a little informal poll, and report back.
                      -- ilyas
                    p.s. One of them is Governor Stupid Ass Tool to you.
                    \_ 5% of the population believes that the govenment
                       is controlled by space aliens, too.
                       \_ We're working hard to convince the rest of you before
                          They take over everything and we all perish into the
                          food vats or as hosts for their symbiotes!
                    false.  -- ilyas
                 \_ I've seen them in Berkeley, and wasn't that half of
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
                    \_ poor bastard... how does he expect anyone to vote for
                       him when they can't even spell his name.  if he was
                       smith or jones or jackson he'd be ok.
                       \_ Seriously.  That's probably a factor.  I mean,
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
                          Kelly vs Bush?
        \_ Actually, if and when the window of opportunity above closes,
           it's time to get out.  not getting out would just be prolonging
           the pain.
           \_ Agreed. It's not foolish or cowardly to realize that it's
              possible for us to screw this situation up past the point
              where our presence is in any way helpful.  That point may
              not be now, but we need to consider it as a possibility.
              \_ It's always helpful to someone. The point so far has been
                 that on balance, it was never helpful to America to do this.
                 Nothing about the current situation is really much different
                 than many imagined.
                 \_ Not to take sides in this debate, or anything, but I
                    really don't think it is possible to evaluate the effects
                    of sweeping foreign policy changes after so little time
                    has passed.  While it is true that the outcome in Iraq
                    is important, the fact that America now has a much more
                    aggressive doctrine of preemption (for example) will also
                    have effects.  In twenty years it will be obvious whether
                    the Bush Doctrine was a bad idea.  Calling it a failure
                    now falls under the heading of "I hate Bush" criticism.
                    To the poster below: whatever else may be true, pulling
                    out this very instant is certainly stupid, considering
                    how much it will save, and how much it will lose.  There
                    will be no pullout certainly until November for obvious
                    reasons, and probably not for a few years.  I think
                    the final toll will be a few thousand american lives, and
                    a whole lotta deficit.  -- ilyas
                    \_ What is our agressive policy supposedly trying to
                       preempt? Disagreement with the United States? Because
                       it sure as hell has nothing to do with terrorism.
                       \_ What our aggressive policy is trying to prevent is
                          state-sponsored terrorism.  Whether Iraq actually
                          sponsored terrorism is not even relevant.  What is
                          relevant was the reason why we are in Iraq.  Now
                          suddenly, the world realizes America has a really
                          itchy trigger finger for stuff like that, and will
                          think twice about it.  Syria, for instance, is scared
                          shitless, they were doing nothing but conceding as of
                          late.  In fact, domestic dissent on the Iraq war is
                          a natural sideeffect of democracy, but it weakens the
                          effect of the policy insofar as it makes America less
                          likely to engage in future wars of this type.  In
                          case of Iraq, there was also a gamble to place a seed
                          of democracy in the middle east, using the common
                          observation that democracy is virulent, and
                          prosperity follows democracy.  It was a gamble because
                          creating democracy from scratch is difficult, all
                          democratic european states went through a long period
                          of bloodshed before democracy was established for
                          good.  -- ilyas
                          \_ "established for good".  Really, that should be
                             "established for the moment".  Democracy is
                             fragile and must be tended, not taken for granted
                             as the western Europeans and so many Americans do.
                             As far as the Bush Gamble goes, only time will
                             tell.  Historians will look back and children will
                             either be taught that he was the most brilliant
                             foreign policy President in generations or the
                             worst.  It is too soon to tell now.
                          \_ "Now suddenly, the world [...] will think twice
                              about it." Or they won't. It's equally possible
                              that countries will realize that the only to
                              protect themselves from aggression is to develop
                              their own WMD. I don't understand why above you
                              say that we need 20 years to evaluate the
                              success of the Bush Doctrine, and then you go
                              and claim that the Bush Doctrine has been
                              \_ I don't claim that it is successful.  I was
                                 merely giving possible reasons for the Bush
                    the Bush Doctrine was a bad idea.  Calling it a failure
                    now falls under the heading of "I hate Bush" criticism.
                    Whatever else may be true, pulling out this very instant
                    is certainly stupid.  - ilyas
                    To the poster below: whatever else may be true, pulling
           \_ The right people at the top of what to accomplish what who wants?
                          a natural sideeffect of democracy, but it weakens the
                          effect of the policy insofar as it makes America less
                          likely to engage in future wars of this type. -- ilyas
                                 Doctrine.  Whether they are good reasons or
                                 not remains to be seen.  -- ilyas
                             \_ Developing WMD as a defense against the US at
                                this point in history would be pure suicide.
                                Only the most insane of leaders would think
                                like this.  Witness North Korea for an example
                                of insanity.  Without a dramatic shift in
                                power due to leapfrogging non-US technology or
                                the complete economic collapse of the US, the
                                currently non-WMD would only do as you suggest
                                if they were completely irrational.  It's a
                                losing policy for any nation as the world
                                stands now.  As far as the BD goes, no one here
                                has claimed success.  Where do you get this
                                stuff from?  Do you not read?  Do you knee
                                jerk into anything that doesn't bash Bush must
                                be pro-Bush?  We're having a nice little chat
                                here, please don't fuck it up with blind
        \_ It's not stupid to support a pullout at this point.  The
           Washington Post has at least one very long article on the Falluja
              This is in LA, btw, not Berkeley.  I shudder when I think about
              Berkeley...  -- ilyas
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
           it's time to get out.  not getting out would just be prolonging
           the pain.
                    out this very instant is certainly stupid, considering
                    how much it will save, and how much it will lose. -- ilyas
        \_ It's not stupid to support a pullout at this point.  The
           Washington Post has at least one very long article on the Falluja
           problem.  I just get the impression that we're shitting ourselves
           into a deeper and deeper hole; we don't have the right people
           at the top to accomplish what they want.
           war with each other for Europe's benefit.  The lines are entirely
           artificial and detrimental to the cause of peace and anyone's
           security.  If anyone had the balls to just admit the Europeans
           fucked most of the rest of the world and just redraw the lines a
           whole lot of ugliness would simply evaporate over night.
           \_ Good idea, all we have to do is also invade Iran, Syria, and
              Turkey so we can erase all current lines and redivide!
              (Although, I agree with out in a perfect world sense.)
           problem.  I just get the impression that we're shitting ourselves
           into a deeper and deeper hole; we don't have the right people
           at the top to accomplish what they want.
           \_ The right people at the top of what to accomplish what who wants?
        \_ Does anyone remember how many troops we *still* have in the Kosovo
           region?  They were supposed to be out after *one year* from the
           time they first entered the area.  All these people all over the
           place hate each other so much.  Most of these situations were
           created by European colonialism.  The Europeans *intentionally*
           divided tribes and put halves of traditional enemy tribes together
           for the express purpose of making sure these places were always at
           war with each other for Europe's benefit.  The lines are entirely
           artificial and detrimental to the cause of peace and anyone's
           security.  If anyone had the balls to just admit the Europeans
           fucked most of the rest of the world and just redraw the lines a
           whole lot of ugliness would simply evaporate over night.
           \_ Good idea, all we have to do is also invade Iran, Syria, and
              Turkey so we can erase all current lines and redivide!
              (Although, I agree with out in a perfect world sense.)
              \_ No invasion would be necesssary in most cases.  A lot of the
                 current wars going on are because the original tribes are
                 trying to reform across borders.  The Tutsi/Hutu thing was a
                 good example of that.  One tribe managed to take control of
                 the government and used it to attempt to genocide the other
                 from within their borders.  After 500,000 to 800,000 dead, it
                 sure looks like a better plan to bring everyone to the table
                 to redraw borders peacefully rather than by the gun or the
2004/4/9-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13118 Activity:nil
4/9     War is hell:
        \_ no it's not, it's like walking in the park!
2004/4/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13117 Activity:nil
4/9     did the bush administration actually say that we would be greeted as
        liberators or is that hippie propoganda? also, if it is true, what's
        the conservative response to that claim? is it that the vast majority
        of iraqis are happy for what we did? sorry for trolling, but i don't
        follow the news closely enough to remember what was actually said.
        \_ http://www.dailykos.net/archives/002162.html
        \_ You and everyone else.
        \_ it's a "small group of criminals and thugs" who are causing
           trouble right now
        \_ C'mon now, you can type "greeted as liberators" into google
           for yourself and find out.
2004/4/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13114 Activity:nil
4/9     Iran is next:
        \_ Will we be welcomed as liberators?
            \_ For some definition of "liberators," and some arbitrarily
               large epsilon around that definition.
2004/4/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13100 Activity:nil
4/8     http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Police.html
        It is now more apparent than ever that disbanding the Iraqi army
        was a terrible mistake.  It resulted in (1) lots of jobless and angry
        military trained people, (2) totally alienated all the sunnis,
        (3) destroyed the only Iraqi institution that can keep order (the
        police force put together by Bremer has proven to be totally useless
        and they are viewed as lackeys).  US should have learned from the
        colonial brits and made use of the conquered Iraqi army.  Now, I
        don't see how a police / military force can be put together, cause
        the provisional government is now seen as a US lackey, and any
        police / military force will also be seen as a US lackey, and will
        only attract lackeys, unfortunately.  the pro-US patriotic Iraqis
        can at most stand on the sidelines now.  we are stuck there forever.
        \_ Bremer (who shares responsibility with Rumsfeld, et al. on
           disbanding the army) said we were going to be handing over power
           on June 30, and he said that on Tuesday.  Then again, Kerry says
           the Administration hasn't explained how the handover will take
           place, who we are transferring power to, and what relationship
           this will have to the U.S. forces who will apparently remain
           behind to provide security
           \_ Remember our president "doesn't do nuance" (actual quote).  In
              his mind: June 29: Sovereignty in US hands June 30: Sovereignty
              in Iraqi hands.  That's it.  Don't try to think beyond that.
              \_ Yeah, if he did do nuance, he would have ignored the
                 asinine calls from the left for a definitive handover
                 date.  Now all we hear is how stupid it was to name a
                 handover date since we gave the enemy a target to hit.  Kind
                 like the liberals who opposed Saddam's ouster in '91, but
                 poke with glee at Bush41 for "not finishing the job".
2004/4/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13098 Activity:nil
4/8     Claim vs. Fact with Rice's Opening Statement and Q&A:
        \_ Cool, mind if I send you to an equally biased site for a
           "claim vs fact" on this or other hot button topics?  Why do so
           many of you think your biased crap will be taken seriously by
           anyone who isn't already a singing member of the choir?
           \_ Hey, if we can have freep and drudge links we can have
              American Progress links.  They're more credible than both of
              those sites put together anyway - the left equivalent to
              freep would be international ANSWER, or something...
2004/4/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13089 Activity:nil
4/8     http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08CND-SHIA.html?hp
        Wow!  Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting for centuries we
        managed to unite them.  Now they can be annihilated together!
        \_ hey, it's a small group of criminals and thugs, CNN said so (it's
           right there in the first link on the web page)
           \_ w00t!
2004/4/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:13078 Activity:moderate
4/7     http://www.senderberl.com/rice3.14.jpg
        \_ What are these guys, lysdexic?  http://Senderberl.com:  "Ralph Nadar",
           "Arnold Schwartzenegger"?  -John
        \_ My gawd, stop the miscegenation!  Who will think of the children!
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13068 Activity:moderate
4/7     http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08SHIA.html
        Both Sunni and Shiite insurgecies broadbased.  Those ungrateful
        people.  Let's just get out and let them kill one another.
        \_ but then we don't get to take their oil!
           \_ duh, if it was about oil then invading was the most stupid thing
              we possibly could have done.  the smart thing would have been
              to let Hussein keep Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and continue buying
              oil from him without all the messy wars and sanctions and
              inspections in between.  it has little to do with oil.  it has
              everything to do with restructuring the cold war world into the
              post cold war era.  this is all about power, not energy.
                \_ Sorry, that wouldn't have been smart.  Having a syphilitic
                   dictator in charge of that much oil would have been dumb.
                   He might decide he wanted more money, and with that much
                   of the supply, he could ensure he got it.  Also, with
                   that much wealth, he could develop nukes.  Look at how much
                   fun North Korea is.  And they're not even rich.
                   \_ Yeah, except for all of the UN people running around
                      trying to expose non-existant weapons, and the oil
                      fields trashed from 10+ years of no spare parts. And the
                      internally corrupted sycophants who drained Hussein of
                      money while producing very little.
                   \_ Oh so you think the way it's gone was so much better for
                      the oil industry and everyone else?  Riiiiight.
        \_ Build fence, throw in guns.  -John
           \_ they've already got plenty of guns.
              \_ Fantastic.  More money for fencing.  -John
                 \_ Israel agrees. Fences stop everything.
                    \_ Hey, the idea is good.  Building it through Abdul the
                       apple farmer's backyard so as not to spoil some
                       religious fanatic's view is another question.  -John
                       \_ So you intend to fence in what? All of Iraq?
                          \_ All of Israel and the occupied territories. We'll
                             check back in in about ten years.
                    \_ you really should talk to CHINESE about fenses.  Our
                       fences was thousands of miles in length and it didn't
                       really didn't do much good.
        \_ I read the article; wow, it sounds bad now.  Most other major
           newspapers will have stories tomorrow echoing this thesis, well,
           except Fox News.
           \_ It's the NYT.  Of course the rest of the media will echo the
              story.  I sure love having a single news room creating the news.
              Thankfully the NYT is no longer the mouth-of-god-to-the-public's-
              ear that it used to be.
        \_ The question is, how do we make sure us last longer than they
           do.  For answer, see below.
           \_ "Try the Extended Pleasure condoms by Trojan?" I guess that's
              one way to work them over, but while Marines might be use to
              sodomy those Army guys will need some teaching.
        \_ Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
           \_ Odd, the September 11th terrorists thought the same way.
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13062 Activity:nil
4/7     Marine officials here continued to broadly describe their opponents
        as "anti-coalition forces" including a mix of Islamic extremists,
        followers of former president Saddam Hussein and criminals, along
        with a few foreign fighters. But several translators for the
        Marines, who meet with local residents and question detainees,
        offered a slightly different description. "A lot of Iraqis hate us.
        They believe we are invaders who will take away their country," said
        one translator, Fahim Salim. In Fallujah, he said, some enemy
        fighters are Sunni Muslims who fear the U.S. occupation will bring
        Shiite Muslims to power, while others are former soldiers, with
        expert training and access to weapons, who are now jobless and
        desperate. -Washington Post (today)
        \_ yeah, it's the economy stupid!
           \_ But if everyone has access to weapons, why is there still
              violence??  The NRA and the "real" conservatives have stated
              that an armed societ will be crime free!  It's that simple!
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13061 Activity:nil
4/7     From the Riverbend site:
        " And now Muqtada Al-Sadr's people are also fighting it out in
        parts of Baghdad and the south. If the situation weren't so
        frightening, it would almost be amusing to see Al-Hakeem and
        Bahr Ul Iloom describe Al-Sadr as an 'extremist' and a 'threat'.
        Muqtada Al-Sadr is no better and no worse than several extremists
        we have sitting on the Governing Council. He's just as willing
        to ingratiate himself to Bremer as Al-Hakeem and Bahr Ul Iloom.
        The only difference is that he wasn't given the opportunity, so
        now he's a revolutionary[...]And as I blog this, all the mosques,
        Sunni and Shi'a alike, are calling for Jihad..."
        \_ Right, so if you don't have power, you pick up guns and try to
           get it with blood and lead?  That's not extremist at all...
           \_ And the provisional government is democratic and respects the
              will of the people, right?
           \_ I think OP is pointing out the pot/kettle dichotomy.
              \_ I think the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" is an
                 example of hypocrisy, not dichotomy.
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13059 Activity:high
4/7     Is there a recent precedent for the use of "civilian contractors" /
        "mercenaries" in combat situations?  The recent murders/mutilations
        were terrible, but I'm wondering about the use of CC/Ms to protect
        government agencies in a warzone-- what sort of accountability does
        this Blackwater company have if one of their guards guns down a
        \_ These "civilian contractors" are ex-marines / navy-seals who is
           hired to protect food convoy.  They are not "civilians" (which
           implied they are defenceless and without arms).  These incident
           can be treated as US soldiers being killed.  Both USA and Britian
           are toying around with mercenaries because casualty of mercenaries
           are not as politically sensitive as regular soldiers.  Further
           when mercenaries commit war crime and all, government can just
           wave their hand and say "it ain't us."
        \_ Recent precedant?  I don't know.  Google "hessian mercenaries"
           \_ let's say post-1950, post-Geneva convention, etc.
        \_ My great-grandfather was a mercenary in WWI, and in a few
           american scuffles prior to that.
        \_ US or any country?
           \_ Doesn't matter.  Let me be more inflammatory: How do you feel
              about an Enron or Worldcom that employs well-trained paramilitary
              types and is contracted to work for the government?  Or:
              Imagine the Bush invading countryX using an entirely mercenary
              force, and blaming the outcome on a lack of "corporate synergy".
              \_ w00t!
        \_ How about the French Foreign Legion?
           \_ they are *NOT* mercenaries.  They are effectively French Arm
              and forces.
        \_ The United States used hundreds of mercenaries/contractors in
           Columbia in the late 90s. I know 20 of them died in 1998 alone.
        \_ The Pope is guarded by Swiss Guards which are mercenaries.  There
           hasn't been combat situations in recent history though.
2004/4/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13055 Activity:high
4/7     War President:
        \_ the fact that there are duplicate photos seems to diminish the point
           a bit
        \_ Ooh!  Can you do the same thing with the 9/11 families?
           \_ it hasn't been proven yet that 9/11 was Bush's fault.
2004/4/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29903 Activity:nil 83%like:13037
4/6     Hans Blix says Iraq better off under Saddam than it is now.
2004/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13044 Activity:nil
4/6     Ambush on U.S. forces and ensuing firefight in Sadr City Sunday
        leave 8 U.S. soldiers dead, 40+ wounded:  http://csua.org/u/6s6
        \_ You know, unlike Afghanistan, the terrain around there is a bit
           more conducive to cordoning off slums full of nutcase thugs and
           napalming the crap out of it... -John
           \_ Where is your European sense of civility?
              \_ John calls from Switzerland. They are not like the Europeans
                 you are probably thinking of. Ask John, for instance, when it
                 was Switzerland granted women the right to vote.
                 \_ Federal income tax for someone making $78k in .ch is 4%.
                    I am SO moving there at the first opportunity. -- ilyas
                    \_ yepthe Swiss rounded up jewish refuges, sent them to
                       nazi firing sqad waiting on border, and then pocketed
                       their bank accounts.
                       \_ Hey you should hear what the wartime Pope had to say
                          about the Jews.  Hope you aren't Catholic, or want
                          to move to Italy (let alone Germany).  And then there
                          is FDR who (half in jest, apparently) was suggesting
                          that all Germans be neutered after the war.  You
                          would also be surprised to learn that bombing of
                          civilians was first authorised by the Allies
                          (specifically Churchill).  It's obvious the only
                          fully guiltless party here is Soviet Russia!
                            -- ilyas
        \_ old news
           \_ If you read the link, you'll see interesting details of the
              battle that weren't available yesterday
              \_ "Bring it on!" -gwb
                 \_ You're a sick bastard.
                    \_ "Mission Accomplished!" - gwb
2004/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13038 Activity:high
4/6     Murdoch news reporting 130 US dead:
        \_ maybe that was supposed to be 13?
        \_ There's a drudgereport URL which points to a newer skynews article.
           It says the number is from 12 to 130 and it's all unconfirmed.
           CNN says it's 12.  I really really doubt it's 130; skynews probably
           confused this with total people killed on both sides.
           \_ Phew.
        \_ Dude, if that's correct, but tomorrow morning there will be no
           "Saddam Town."
           \_ English please.
              \_ I think he is promising revenge.
           \_ It is actually called "Sadr City" by the residents now.
              No kidding.
              \_ I think you guys are getting your uprisings confused.  The
                 Fallujah resistance is seperate from the Shiite groups that
                 are led (inspired?) by Sadr.  Basically the shit is hitting
                 the fan and according to some emails I've heard from Iraq
                 the situation is much worse than the US media is reporting.
                 \_ But wait, why don't we just give *everyone* there a
                    gun?  According to the "real" conservatives here, that
                    would END ALL CRIME!  It's that simple!
2004/4/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13037 Activity:kinda low 83%like:29903
4/6     Hans Blix says Iraq better off under Saddam than it is now.
        http://csua.org/u/6s4 (Yahoo News)
        \_ Waiting for this to shown to be wrong....
           \_ You think Blix has ever been wrong?  He's European and anti-Bush.
              \_ And?  When the man's wrong, he's wrong.  Show me how his
                 statement that the negatives outweigh the positives for the
                 Iraqis now is wrong, and I'll gladly concede the point.
                 \_ no more human meat grinders is a big positive
                    \_ You do know that the meat grinders claim has never
                       been corroborated, right?
                       \_ Hey, has the Holocaust been corroborated to your
                          satisfaction?  -- ilyas
                          \_ Yes.  I have met holocaust survivors, and seen
                             auschwitz.  The holocaust was not based on the
                             claims of an otherwise-shown-unreliable informant,
                             then exploded by a press looking for gore.
                    \_ I am pretty sure we have killed more Iraqis last
                       year than SH did in any of the last five. We are
                       are using Apache helicopters instead of meat
                       grinders, which I am sure the dead appreciate.
                       \_ it's always how you kill them that matters.
                          gas chamber = bad
                          fire bombing / nuclear bombing = ok
                          and it's also depend upon who does it and who
                          are being killed.
                          Iraqi use chemical weapon = bad
                          Japanese use chemical weapon = ok
                 \_ A second summer with limited electricity will be neato.
2004/4/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13021 Activity:high
4/5     Broke the 600 mark..
        \_ What's the number counting all contractors?
           \_ We don't count civilians.
              \_ Of course the casualty numbers look better if you omit
                 civilians, armed or not, but it's not really honest.
                 \_ Isn't there some website that counts all casualties?
                    I've heard that the new body armor keeps people alive,
                    but there are many more amputees compared to gulf war I
                    \_ It relies on left-biased media reports.
                    \_ "Bring it on!" -gwb
                    \_ Body armor?  Why do we allow body armor?  Doesn't that
                       make the death totals lower?
           \_ ^contractors^mercenaries.
        \_ Another 10,000 and we'll be near what Saddam did to his own people
           every year....  We should reinstall him.  He was much more
           efficient at this whole killing thing than we are.
           \_ No matter how many times you repeat this sort of argument, it
              just doesn't hold water.  Sorry.
              \_ Why not?  Shouldn't we minimize human suffering, mr. bleeding
                 heart?  Or did you suddenly become a racist american
                 jingoistic imperialist swine who thinks american lives are
                 suddenly more important than iraqi lives?
                 \_ The war was justified on a false premise.  Our leaders
                    misled us and probably themselves in a single-minded
                    quest to "get Saddam," and in the process cheapened
                    the sacrifice of every American soldier that dies for
                    that cause.
                    \_ Even assuming you are right... how does this invalidate
                       the 'minimize human suffering' bit?  Your hatred for our
                       leaders is blinding you to what's right anyways.
                       \_ It's laudable to free a coutry from a violent tyrant.
                          We could have started with a country that has a
                          populace that would be more welcoming, one with a
                          less fractious ethnic makeup, or one that other
                          countries would help us out with.  We did the right
                          thing for the wrong reasons, and under the wrong
                 \_ How many Iraqis have we killed this year? I heard
                    it was 10,000+. By your reckoning, we are more
                    efficient at killing Iraqis than SH was.
                    \_ Yeah, we're also way better at getting Americans killed
                       by Iraqis than Saddam was.  How many Americans have been
                       killed by Iraq-sponsored terrorism when Saddam was in
                       power?  A handful of tourists in Israel maybe?
2004/4/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:13017 Activity:nil
4/5     Iraq: Shit, meet fan.
2004/4/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13016 Activity:nil
4/5     Is Frank Herbert popular in the Arab world?
        \_ He hates Jews, doesn't he?  Passion of Christ, baby!
        \_ Given that his view of the Middle East has more to with the movie
           "Lawrence of Arabia" than actual experience of Arab cultures, I
            would be curious about this, too. I actually wouldn't be surprised.
            Look at what the Godfather movies did to the mafia. After decades
            of shabby clothes, FFC makes a few movies and suddenly they all
            dress in fancy suits like they did in the 30s again. -- ulysses
            \_ You seem to know a lot about Frank Herbert's life.  Care to
               reveal your sources? -- ilyas
                \_ blow it out your ass ilyas, frank herbert was an
                   excellent writer but he spent most of his life writing
                   Dune in his van during lunchbreaks while working
                   for the SF Examiner in San Francisco.
               \_ You get 2 pts. I haven't ever looked
                  deeper than web page bios to confirm what I should have said
                  is my own personal impression. Do you have something else to
                  say besides that, though? I'm still curious about the original
                  question. Note that he did spend something less than a year
                  in Pakistan as a journalist, but I wasn't counting that. I'm
                  more interested in how people react to stylized depictions
                  of their cultures. -- ulysses
                  \_ if you're going to pose the abstract question of how
                     people react to stylized depictions of their own culture,
                     why not just look at hollywood's depiction of the US?  or
                     for that matter any theater or art in any culture in any
                     time?  art is always a stylized depiction.
                     \_ Because we have here a specific and interesting example
                        that I hadn't thought of. I already know my own
                        reactions to foreigners telling me I don't sound
                        American because I don't sound like John Wayne and
                        what I thought about "Dancer in the Dark" having grown
                        up in Washington State, for instance. So has anybody
                        asked a friend from, say, Saudi Arabia, or is there a
                        sodian from Kuwait who can contribute? It's just a
                        question. -- ulysses
        \_ Tell us news of Iraqqis.
        \_ His name is a killing word.
2004/4/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13015 Activity:nil
4/5     Article on the mercenaries (like the Blackwater employees):
        \_ Evil BushCo proxy employees deserve to be shot, stomped, burned,
           hacked up, dragged through the streets, and hung from bridges.  it
           is the only way to teach you yankqui pig dogs what freedom means to
           the rest of the world.
           \_ w00t!
           \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ BUCK FUSH!
              \_ BUSH FUCK!
           \_ See, here's what I don't get.  They're willing to do all that to
              four mercenary guys, but they put up with decades of oppression
              at the hands of the Butcher of Baghdad.  How does this make them
              heroes of the resistance?  I don't see it.
              \_ He was a butcher, but he was OUR butcher!  Of course,
                 the truth is that for the most part, people who kill and
                 maim are just looking for an excuse.
                 \_ Now .... now, there is no right and wrong, just different
                    \_ Respect my diversity you western swine or we'll come
                       over there, blow you up and convert you (peacefully)
                       at the edge of a sword!
              \_ They do that to 4 of Saddam's, hell opens up and swallows
                 up the town.  They kill 4 Americans, all we do is wring our
                 hands and go through bouts of recrimination.  We start
                 dragging out and killing 10 of them for every one of ours,
                 and it'll be amazing how fast they'll play nice.
                 \_ Isn't "Operation Iraqi Freedom" great?
                    \_ Great red herring!
                    \_ Welcome to "Operation Iraqi Bodycount"
                       \_ w00t!
              \_ Do you have any idea how many people were killed trying
                 to overthrow Hussein? This was probably a monthly
                 occurance when he was in power, there was just no free
                 press, so it never got reported.
2004/4/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13013 Activity:nil
4/4     With the mad cleric Mr. Sadr inciting violence, are Shiites
        turning against us?
        \_ who said they were ever with us?
           \_ bush people. these shiites were supposed to be overjoyed.
              \_ I seem to remember right after we toppled the government, a
                 lot of Iraqis were basically saying "Thank you very much!  Now
                 please go home."
                 \_ wouldn't you?  we could've just gone home but the chaos
                    left behind would've been worse for us, them, and everyone
                    else.  just because a few people riot and stomp around is
                    no reason to abandon the rest to barbarity.  we'll go when
                    it's time not when some bomb belt wearing lunatics say so.
2004/4/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12985 Activity:high
4/2     WMD in Iraq.  Maybe, maybe not.
        \_ how many times have we heard a variation of this argument?
           \_ And you're still not listening?
              \_ Ever heard "The Neocon Who Cried WMD"?
        \_ This guy is being deliberately disingenuous: "Ricin and botulinum
           toxin have already been found in sufficient quantities to
           regenerate a biological weapon (BW) capability in short order."
           The BT found was not a precursor to weapon quality BT and the
           statement on ricin is simply bizarre, since it is created from
           castor beans. As an NBC expert, he knows better too.
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12974 Activity:very high
4/1     what kind of military strategy would you do in fallujah?
        the best one i heard is to set up a camp w/ food and beds
        outside the city, cordon the city and empty it out inspecting
        each person for weapons, removing weapons from them and searching
        the homes for explosives and weapons. Then moving people back in.
           \_ I'm waiting for a Pentagon spokesperson to slip up and call them
           \_ http://www.jengajam.com/r/Saddam-Hey-Ya
           ZE LAMENTATION OF ZEIR VOMEN.  -Johnan the Barbarian
        \_ Iron boot.  The place was showered with goodies stolen from the
           rest of Iraq for Saddam's entire multi decade tenure.  Of course
           they're pissed off that they don't get to live well at the expense
           of the rest of the country now.  They'll never happily go along
           with anything.  The uprising needs to be crushed utterly and
           convincingly.  Some only understand and respect force and violence.
           It is unfortunate but it is the way it is sometimes.  This is one
           of those times.
        \_ 1 saddaam + 1 saddaam = 2 saddaams
        \_ You'd have to cordon off the city before you start building the
           camp or else people would get wise and move their weapons.  Then
           during construction you'd have to make sure that food/water and
           \_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them.  How dare they
              kill us nice invaders.  Don't they understand we're here to help
              them?  Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
           miscelaneous goods can exit/enter the city, wiout weapons being
           smuggled out.  Then once you clear people, you'd have to make sure
           they didn't loot their neighbors houses while they are in the camp.
           Then when you're all done you have to make sure people don't just
           smuggle in more weapons.
        \_ I'm a self-described liberal, and even I would have difficulty
           resisting the urge to firebomb Fallujah into rubble right now.
           \_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them.  How dare they
              kill us nice invaders.  Don't they understand we're here to help
              them?  Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
              \_ There's a huge difference between killing someone and shooting
                 up their vehicle, setting fire to it, fragging the still
                 living people to the street where you stomp them to death
                 under foot, hack their bodies to pieces and drag what's left
                       \_ These "contractors" ride in heavily armed caravans
                          (for obvious reasons).
                 through the streets and hang it from a bridge with a big
                 stupid grin on your face for the cameras.
                 \_ yea it's much better to drop anti-personnel bombs with
                    thousands of bomblets from high up in the sky.  Much
                             \_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
                                \_ Hehe.  Why do you hate America?
                    more civilized.
                    \_ sorry, not taking the bait or feeding the trolls tonight
              \_ Not only were they civilians, they were delivering FOOD TO THE
                 HUNGRY.  They're animals (those Iraqis who did this) and
                 should be hunted down like animals.
                             \_ If foreigners invaded America, I would
                                try to kill them, and I wouldn't be too
                    \_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
                       treated Mussolini?
                                concerned if they were officially civilians
                                or not.
                                \_ would you attack the French for helping
                                   kick out the British for independence?
                                   \_ I see your point, but that is not
                                      analogous to the situation in Fallujah.
                                      Maybe in the Kurd dominated or even
                                      Sunni dominated regions, but not there.
                                \_ Hehe, even if their express purpose was
                                   ousting Dubya?  You talk about killing, but
                                      a much more civilized way of killing.
                                   I don't think you would have the guts to do
                                   it if it came down to it. -- ilyas
                                   \_ yea, it's much easier to kill when
                                      you are high up in the air, dropping
                                      those smart bombs with lots of
                                      bomblets.  the enemy die the same
                                      kind of horrible death, but it is
                                      much more civilized.
              \_ The people they killed were just civilians.
                 \_ I know that.  But if you were a Sunni they'd sure look a
                    lot like invaders to you.
                    \_ 70% of the Iraqis would rather have the US troops
                       instead of the UN troops.
                       \_ Where do you get this figure?
                    carrying weapons.  They are likely to be working closly
                    \_ Now, now..  There is no right and wrong, only different
                          \_ Zogby polling.  --!that person above but saw it
                       \_ In other news, 38% of all statistics are made up on
                  \_ try harder
                          the spot.
                          \_ this would be funny if uhm well nevermind....
                    \_ See, this is typical liberal smugness.  Iraqis are no
                       more dumb than you or I (well definitely not as dumb
                       as you).  Saying civilians look like invaders to them
                       is like saying _their_ civilians look like terrorists
                       to us, and we should just hang up a few as an example
                       to others.  Idiot.
                       \_ Perhaps you read me too literaly.  I wasn't
        \_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
               (put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
               doing this)
           (2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more
                          suggesting they were incapable of telling the
                          difference between a soldier and a civilian.  I was
                          merely saying that from their point of view, both
                          are equally valid targets.
                          \_ Well, if they feel that way, I suppose it's
                             equally valid for us to see them all as valid
                             targets too.  Anyone with half a brain will see
                             that you can't provoke Americans forever.
                             \_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
                                \_ Hehe.  Why do you hate America?
                                \_ You're a piece of shit.
                 \_ They are all ex-Navy Seals and ex-Rangers.  They are
                    carrying weapons.  They are likely to be working closely
                    with the US military.  (indentation corrected)
                    \_ No, they're actually there as security for business
                       people from Europe and local politicians.
                 \_ There are acts of resistance I am willing to accept.  The
                    immolation, dismemberment, and hanging of anyone, armed
                    combatant or civilian, is inhuman and deserves no
                    excusing.  This was barbarism, pure and simple. -SDL
                    \_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
                       treated Mussolini?
                       \_ Of course.  It was barbaric.  -!SDL
                \_ No, they're aren't stupid, they knew.  They thought
                       "Hey, here are some white guys who can't fight back
                        Boo-yah!"  That's just plain old murder.
                        \_ From their point of view, the US government it the
                           embodiment of evil.  If they were on the motd, they
        \_ send in the Terminators
                           would probably say it's in line with French
                           partisans killing members of the Vichy Government.
                           \_ Which would still be wrong when you stomp them
                              to death, set them afire and hang them from a
                              bridge.  Is there any case of that in France?
                        \_ Cough. These weren't just civilians. These were
                           armed security contractors, US mercenaries.
                           \_ SO, in other words, they were working for
                              Iraqis...  That makes it SO much more
                              reasonable to kill them.
                              \_ Hmmm... US Mercenary = Working for the US.
                                 \_ No, they worked for local politicians and
                                    EU businessmen as security.
        \_ useless, weapons will flow right back in.  best way is to
           use fense and towers to divide the city into small sections.
           costly though.  the unfortunate truth is that, yes, saddam is
           a brutal dictator, but the 5m Sunnis like him, and so we have
           a 5m hostile population supporting guerilla activities. our
           invasion is detrimental to them.
        \_ No this is NOT LIKE VIETNAM.
           \_ of course it isn't, but still we should do it right
             and do it cleanly, the more weapons we destroy the less
             will be available.
           \_ actually it is like vietnam.  even the casualty rate is
              comparable to vietnam.  Note that the hostile population
              under occupation (and in the north) in vietnam is like 10
              times the 5m sunnis, and vietnam war lasted about 7 years.
              600*10*7 gives 42000.
               \_ hahaa, go back to the books cuz you don't know squat
                  about vietnam, rates are nowhere near
                  \_ try harder
                     \_ I did the math.  The rates are 1/10th Vietnam rates.
                        \_ I am more interested in how US military fares
                           against guerilla warfare compared to during
                           vietnam times.  I have to conclude it's not
                           much better given that the hostile population
                           of 5m Sunnis is 1/10th the number of the
                           50m hostile vietnamese and the number of
                           casualties per year is also about 1/10th.
                           This demonstrates the limitation of US power
                           as an occupational force.  In conventional
                           warfare it now reigns supreme, but not in
                           guerilla warfare.
                           \_ The number of local people has nothing to do
                              with anything.  Your analogy is false.  Anyway,
                              the total number of American deaths so far is
                              trivial (except to the dead and their families
                              of course, but militarily meaningless).  The US,
                              Brits, and Canadians lost over 5000 men at DDay
                              on just the first day.  That was considered a
                              great success and much lower first *day* losses
                              than expected.  Militarily, we're not only not
                              losing but completely kicked and continue to
                              kick ass in Iraq.  The resistence is 99.9999%
                              ineffective.  The problems are diplomatic and
                              due to domestic weakness and lack of will on the
                              part of a minority segment of the American
                              \_ False.  The size of the hostile population
                                 means everything.  That's why we cannot
                                 allow the shiites to turn hostile too.
                                 otherwise we are screwed.  Your D-Day
                                 analogy is the one that's ludicrous.
        \_ Nuke 'em.
        \_ i think the new war technics will likely involve crowd control
        and more police like tactics. Moving innocent civilians cleanly
        and safely to root out the bad guys is where new technology
        and new strategy will come in.
        \_ None of these will work. They either require huge amounts of
           manpower that the US can't/won't provide or they greatly subvert
           positive gains the US has made. And if you start popping off
           civilians, you're just making things worse.
        \_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
               (put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
               doing this)
           (2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more
2004/3/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12951 Activity:nil
3/31    So "strategy" = follow the herd?  Following the herd
        would definitely multiply our allies.  That's asinine,
        I admit.  Let's then say that Bush 1) Lobbied Congress to
        put three electric fences along our northern and southern
        borders. 2) Stop letting unmarried males of age 18-35
        of Muslim heritage into this country. 3) Had the police
        deport every illegal alien caught. Would he or would he
        not have been branded as racist and divisive? The
        murderers won't be happy until: 1) We abandon Israel
        2) You are praying to Mecca 5x a day 3) The women are
        wearing burqas.
        \_ why would praying to Mecca be so bad?  Aren't you essentially
           praying to Israel?
           \_ Christians and Jews back Israel because according to the
              Word of God, God's time for Israel's punishment was up;
              the Jews returned on schedule http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html
              To want the destruction of Israel is to be against God's
              people and God.  To love God's people and help them is to
              love God's plan.  It definitely grieve's God's heart
              to watch us kill His enemies without them accepting Jesus
              Christ.  I don't remember our support of Israel being openly
              questioned until the last two years, and the next step for
              the US for an incoming Democratic administration is
              abandoning God's people Israel, and that will end
              what remains of His blessing on this country.
              \_ people have questioned our support of israel for decades --
                 it's just because Israel has stepped up its "actions against
                 terrorism" that there are more people speaking up louder
        \_ I think Bush mishandled the diplomacy but I don't think you can
           realistically say we lost allies or increased enemies. We are
           still allied with all the same old allies, and have all the same
           old enemies. Where's the difference? There was just more bickering
           in NATO.
           \_ If you have chance, go outside of USA.  Anti-USA sentiment is
              at all time high, mostly due to our policy toward Iraq.
              \_ I doubt it (the mostly due to Iraq part). Where does this
                 matter? Not in Europe. China? They'd whip up people against
                 USA no matter what, because this furthers the autocratic
                 interests (but they also like US money). The Russians are
                 getting blown up themselves, I'm doubt in a few years that
                 Iraq alone will have been enough to make people hate the USA.
                 In the end, Saddam was such that defending him is laughable.
                 The problem for us is the huge costs we're incurring, which
                 IMO wasn't justified, and the credibility disaster of how
                 Bush chose to present and conduct the operation, which was
                 the only way they could win domestic support for it.
                 \_ The error in your thinking is that not seeing a reason
                    to attack Saddam is not the same as "defending him."
                    The error is so large that it clouds your entire
                    \_ There were plenty of reasons to attack him and
                       everyone knows it. Ignoring that clouds YOUR
                       \_ Why did almost everyone counsel against it then?
                          No valid reasons were given to the international
                          community. The only halfway decent one was
                          given ex post facto, which doesn't cut it.
                          \_ Saddam and his history was "enough" to attack him.
                             Anyway my point is that although it may have been
                             inadvisable, and people quibble with the means,
                             no one argues against the end, and it's not
                             changing who are our allies/enemies.
                             \_ That is your opinion and I disagree with it.
                                Read some opinion polls about how the world
                                regards America today compared with 2000.
                                \_ if you disagree show me an example. you're
                                   the one asserting that there's a difference.
                                   opinion polls are worthless, but i haven't
                                   seen one showing any substantive change.
                                   \_ link:csua.org/u/6pi
                                      Hope you have an Economist subscription
                                      Here is one that is free.
        \_ The world is not black and white, the way you seem to think
           that it is. Bush's father was able to assemble a coalition
           using diplomacy and kind words. Dubya drove everyone off with
           his strong words and bluster.
           \_ hey, you can't have everything all the time
           \_ Isn't it black and white to assume 1991=2001?
              \_ he didn't make that assumption.  -tom
                \_ You are right tom.  He didn't necessarily make such an
                   assumption.  But was Bush necessarily wrong to call 9/11
                   an evil act?  Perhaps it was hypocritical of us to call
                   Iraq/Afghanistan evil and invade them, and not give China
                   Korea, and Saudi Arabia the same treatment.  But was it
                   so off base as to be an outright lie?
                   \_ The mistake was lumping Iraq/Afghanistan together
                      like that. The whole world outside of a here could
                      see that they were very different cases. A true
                      friend and ally tells you when you are about to
                      make a big mistake, like Germany did.
2004/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12945 Activity:nil
3/32    Where can I find the Bush humor slides about WMD?
2004/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12941 Activity:moderate
3/31    Guess who used to believe in the Iraq/al-Qaida connection?
        From your favorite neo-marxist Christopher Hitchens
        \_ You know that some (but not all) of so called neo-con
           movement are formerly known as liberals.  One even
           likened the U.S. to the Soviet Union appreciatively.
                \_ I have no idea what you are trying to say.
        \_ uh, no news here... Hitchens used to be really liberal
           until 9/11
        \_ You don't believe Iraq was funding any terrorists?  How is that
           when it is public info announced to the world by Iraq under Saddam?
           \_ Funding which terrorists?  And don't say they're all the same;
              many of the groups have trouble _not_ bombing each other, let
              alone the infidels.  The point, in my mind, is that Iraq had
              nothing to do with the Al Qaeda attack on the WTC and nothing
              to do with Al Qaeda afterwards.  There was no justification
              there for invading Iraq.
           \_ "Terrorists" are not one big team.  This is not G I Joe.  And
                usually if you want to be taken seriously, you cite an article
                where you are getting this "public info."  The assertion that
                there were WMDs was also "public info" but that information,
                like yours, was not backed by any real facts.
              \_ You're nuts, dude.  He was giving bounty money to families
                 of suicide bombers.  What more do you want?  One of the
                 original cashed checks after it went through the Bank Of
                 \_ Thanks for the psych eval.  Bounty money to families of
                    suicide bombers != justification for invasion.  It was
                    bad, yes, and needed to be dealt with, yes, but not
                    necessarily through invasion.
                    \_ I hear this a lot, and would completely
                       agree if SOMEONE could just make a reasonable
                       alternate suggestion.
                       \_ Well, tell what your parameters are for "reasonable"
                          and I'll try to put one together for you. If your
                          definition of "reasonable" requires an instantaneous
                          solution, I doubt I'll be able to help you.
                       \_ Israel could just seize the money.  Duh.
                       \_ It is our moral duty to oppose immoral actions on
                          the part of our government.  It is the duty of
                          our government to propose moral solutions to
                          problems.  If the only solution the government can
                          come up with is an immoral solution, the govt. is
                          not trying hard enough.  Being unable to provide
                          an alternative solution does not justify an
                          unlawful solution.
                \_ Hamas is not America's problem. Since when did we invade
                   foreign powers at Israel's bidding? Do we invade Boston
                   next because some Irish give checks to the IRA?
                   \_ Isn't Israel the 51st state?
                      \_ s/Israel/Puerto Rico/
        \_ The fact that terrorists like the Jordanian caught with his
           passport when his car bomb did not go off, along with calls for
           holy warriors to converge on Iraq, should prompt 1) apologies from
           the left for their lack of vision 2) relief that terrorists are
           necessarily converging in smaller numbers here, given there
           are not an infinite number of terrorists.
           \_ Dude, I can't believe you just paraphrased the Emperor.
           \_ I got your apology right here, bitch.
           \_ While I certainly believe in the maxim "the best defense
              is a good offense" especially in warfare, there is another
              one which is even more appropriate "strategy is the art
              of multiplying your allies, while isolating your enemies."
              Bush's actions have succeeded in doing exactly the opposite.
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12905 Activity:nil
3/29    U.S. Helping bring democracy to Iraq:
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12900 Activity:nil
3/29    No freedom of press for you:
        \_ But...we have always been at war with East Asia!
           \_ s/East Asia/Oceania/ ?
2004/3/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29881 Activity:nil 92%like:12889
3/27    Massive top level corruption in the UN?  Say it isn't so!
2004/3/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12889 Activity:moderate 92%like:29881
3/27    Massive top level corruption in the UN?  Say it isn't so!
        http://csua.org/u/6m9  http://www.nzherald.co.nz
        \_ [ references to trolls deleted.  The article is not a troll.
             Do not question the troll censor. ]
        \_ yet another right wing conspiracy.  if it were true, it would
           have been covered by reputable news sources instead of just
           the partisan wsj and some nz rag.
           \_ when it turns out to be true, will you stop being a
              blind ass twink?
              \_ no, he'll just deny reality or claim it's a conspiracy again
                 or say it wasn't *really* like that and it's really not so
                 bad and gwb is evil and opposes the un so the un must be good
                 and if only we paid our dues on time things like this wouldn't
                 happen.   or something like that.  i've seen it before.
           \_ partisan?  you're putting the wsj in the same category as the
              nyt and the star?  i'll bet you put your faith in the nyt which
              has had multiple scandals in the last few short years.  anyone
              who would accuse the wsj of making up news needs to get their
              head examined or is a troll.  and that 'nz rag' happens to be
              one of the top notch papers in that part of the world.  what's
              on your reading list, trollboy?
              \_ I read only USA Today and the Daily Mirror.
        \_ I didn't read the link and I don't doubt it.  This is hardly news.
           UN is a bunch of corrupt criminals with diplomatic covers wanting
           to take over America.  Why don't we just get rid of this
           immunity thing the put them in camp X-ray?
           \_ troll harder.
           \_ I think the US media outlets are tanking this story since
              its an election year.
2004/3/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12862 Activity:moderate
3/25    Neat, check out the comments sections on Noam Chomsky's new blog.
        Makes the motd look civil.
        \_ Can't find 'em
           \_ DAMN.  Looks like they just removed the comments sections.
              Another victory for censorship!
              \_ We cannot have people reading opposing viewpoints on out
                 website comrade!
                 \_ To be fair, they weren't really "opposing viewpoints"
                    so much as "adolescent drivel."  When you use the f-word
                    three times in a sentence, you really don't have much
                    to contribute.  Doesn't mean I think they should have
                    disabled comments: let the blowhards blow!
        \_ It's Chomsky.  The guy is a lightning rod and loves it.
2004/3/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12822 Activity:high
3/23    Clarke: Iraq Teamed up with Bin Laden to Produce WMDs
        ... yes the same Clarke
        \_ Clarke is no longer significant.  May be you should concentrate
           on Bush's facination with Iraq now two of his staff pointed out
           the same thing.
           \_ If Clarke is right then Bush's fascination is appropriate.  I
              think it's funny that you simultaneously believe we shouldn't
              listen to Clarke and use Clarke's own statements as proof that
              we should focus somewhere else based on what Clarke said but
              whatever you do don't listen to Clarke.  heh, I love the motd.
2004/3/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12800 Activity:nil
3/22    Why didn't the Iraqis destroy all the bridges when the
        war started?
        \_ they didn't have any explosives
           \_ what about the explosives tied around their waist?
           \_ they did.  They even put explosives on some of the
              bridges already.
        \_ they need to use the bridges themselves until it's going
           to fall to their enemy, but US is often too fast for
           \_ I think they wanted to get U.S. troops on the bridges
              before they blow it up.  But they should have done it
2004/3/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12799 Activity:kinda low
3/22    The French Connection Kenneth Timmerman reports on
        deep and tight Chirac-Saddam ties.
        \_ Jew
        \_ How about the deep Bush/Laden ties?
           \_ And how about _our_ continued involvement with Hussein
              after the "300,000 of his own people" shit?
2004/3/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12783 Activity:moderate
3/19    Today's contest: name the country which _didn't_ have any protests
        against the US invasion of Iraq:
        \_ Kiribati.
        \_ Can anyone shrink the url?  I can't copy and paste this.
           \_ Kids these days and their problem-solving skills...
           \_ I'm sorry, but you're joking right? Isn't this the *computer
              science* undergraduate assocation?
        \_ My country Singapore never had any protests against it, but
           then it never had protests against anything.
        \_ China.  You must be doing something right when the only countries
           that does not protest against you are Singapore and China, models
           of democracy.
        \_ Israel, of course.
2004/3/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12782 Activity:insanely high
3/19    Rumsfeld 'wanted to bomb Iraq' after 9/11
        'But Mr Clarke, who is expected to testify on Tuesday before a federal
        panel reviewing the attacks, said Mr Rumsfeld complained in the meeting
        that "there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan and there are lots
        of good targets in Iraq." A spokesman for Mr Rumsfeld last night said
        he could not comment immediately."'
        \_ tell me why would the UN want to give up its exploitation of
        making millions off Saddam and the Oil for Food program?
        what incentive for the UN to get rid of IRAQ's saddam when they
        are making millions. You want nothing more than to put the
                \_ Okay Mr. Smarty Pants whay was your strategy for
        Iraqi people back under oppression so that the UN can make millions
        more off the poor Iraqi people exploiting the Oil for Food program.
        \_ lovely
        \_ What's wrong with this, liberal?
           \_ What's wrong? That Dubya and Co. tried to use the national
              tragedy to push their own agendas?
                \_ Okay Mr. Smarty Pants what was your strategy for
                \_ Okay Mr. Smarty Pants whay was your strategy for
                   dealing with terror and cleaning up the cesspool of
                   the Middle East; this is incumbent on those who
                   criticise. No cogent alternative was ever
                   \_ how about dealing with Israeli/Palestine issue
                      directly and more even-handedly?
                   \_ Um, how about the simple observation that Iraq didn't
                      have any involvement at all in Al Qaeda or the WTC?
                      Bombing Iraq as a response to that is asinine.
                      \_ Um, you are plain wrong. Iraq actually did (and
                         still does) have ties with Al Qaeda. Soldiers
                         during the war actually came across a number of
                         terrorist training camps during the war. This is
                         pretty well documented.
                         \_ Show me the documents so I can laugh at them.
                            I never saw them. I did see things about camps
                            in Saudi Arabia.
                   \_ There were plenty of cogent alternatives advocated.
                      Hussain's neighbors didn't consider him a threat.
                      Our own analyists didn't consider him a threat.
                      Hussain was not connected to radical Islamists.
                      It was and remains quite clear that invading Iraq
                      had nothing to do with dealing with terror.
                      \_ And what exactly were those alternatives? Was it to
                         continue to sit on our hands while Iraq continued
                         to violate UN rules and regulations? Do you really
                         believe the UN would have actually done something
                         about the problem? Are you that naive? Do you have
                         no sense of history?
                      \_ Hussein's neighbors didn't consider him a threat
                         *to them*.  I'm not one of his neighbors and I
                         doubt you are/were either.  Which of 'our own
                         analysts' are you refering to?  And yes there are
                         documents out there that show the national fascists
                         and Islamic fascists had considered working together.
                         Since our intel was so poor due to cuts in the 90s
                         we can't really know what was going on back then.
                         The best way to deal with terror is to overthrow the
                         socialist fascists that run the middle east and
                         replace them with non-Islamic democracies that won't
                               \_ I can't believe you have such simplistic
                                  view of the world.  If you actually
                                  read 18-19th century, you might find that
                                  much of the africa was conquered by the
                                  western democracies.  How about Britian's
                                  Opium War against China?  How about French's
                                  conquest of Indochina and Algeria?
                                  The truth is, Democracy, set by western
                                  europe and Americans, are interwined with
                                  Imperialism.  Countries fell victim of
                                  imperialism (including China, numerous
                                  of southeast asian nations, and much of the
                                  middleeast) tend to equate imperalism and
                                  democracy.  When they look for ways to
                                  modernize themselves, they tend to look for
                                  anything but imperalism related ideals.
                                  Many choose communism (eg N. Korea, Vietnam,
                                  and to some extent, China), many choose
                                  religious fundamentalism for solution.
                         put up with that shit.  Only then will the Arab
                         people advance and terrorism fade.  It's people like
                         you who want to keep the Arab people down who create
                         and foster future generations of terrorists.
                         \_ The "if only everyone had government structure
                            X (which just happens to be the same structure
                            I live under), then there would be no more
                            conflict" argument goes back the beginning of
                            time. I see no particular reason to think that
                            this time, but truly, the argument is right.
                            \_ It's a well-documented historical fact that
                               democracies rarely, if ever, fight each other.
                               Democracy does promote peace, the problem is
                               establishing democracy in a society which has
                               never seen it before.  Look how well it worked
                               in Russia...  -- ilyas
                               \_ Or China.  The primary arrogance of American
                                  foreign policy since the beginning of time
                                  is to simply assume as axiomatic that all
                                  people want and need Democracy, and that all
                                  governments are in some way drawn towards
                                  this conclusion as a natural matter of
                                  \_ Those arrogant optimistic Americans.
                                     A pox on them. -- ilyas
                            \_ you erase my post, I erase yours
2004/3/20-21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12779 Activity:nil
3/19    Echoes of the Wild West in one man's border war
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12719 Activity:nil
3/17    http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo
        Rumsfeld disclaiming the use of immediate threat in the push for war
        ... and then being presented with a direct quote contradicting him.
            \_ (I thought that last part was obvious from the URL) -op
2004/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12714 Activity:insanely high
3/17  It is a cold day in hell when I agree with Patrick Buchanan
      and here I do:
      \_ I think that guy is so all over the map politically that it's
         inevitable to agree with him on something eventually.  Even
         a broken clock reads right twice a day.
         \_ No.  He's very consistent.  He simply doesn't fit your nice
            little left/right spectrum.  Not all of us do.
            \_ Perhaps.  More likely, it's because I don't agree with the
               jews, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this
               neocons, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this
                 \_ I'm with you on that one.  I hate the jews, too, and if we
               [Yes, yes, you're very clever substituting "jews" for
                "neocons."  We get it.  Now fuck off.]
               \_ I'm with you on that one.  I hate the joo, too, and if we
                  leave the arabs alone for a while, I'm sure they'll
                  eventually get it together and wipe them out.  Just a few
                  short years and the Zionist entity will collapse and the
                    invaders are driven into the sea.
                  all the lands will return to the rightful owners after the
                  invaders are driven into the sea.
         I guess he is more of an isolationist, than some other label
         which people painted him.
           \_ He's always been an isolationist. This is nothing new.
      \_ GO PAT! GO!
                  \_ Sure you do. You can spot a Right Wing troll from
                     a mile away.
                     \_ No, I was showing you what you sound like.  Mockery
                        is a very simple and common rhetorical technique that
                        I thought even the motd could see and understand.  I
                        was mistaken.  Next time I'll put <mockery></mockery>
                        tags around it so dunderheads like you will know.
                        \_ No one sounds like that to anyone, except in your
                           paranoid and delusional brain. No one on the
                           motd says "I hate the jew, too" except for
                           Right Wing psycho trolls like yourself. Learn
                           to distinguish between disagreeing with Isreal's
                           policies and a desire to kill all Jews. Or
                           forever be marginalized by normal, non-hate filled
                           \_ You sound like that to me.  Your petty insults
                              don't change anything or cover your racist
                              attitudes.  It's odd how you went from calling
                              Israel your enemy (your word choice) to simply
                              'disagreeing with their policies'.  You're a
                              hater and a racist and you're caught red handed
                              smearing the motd with it.  Tough shit, it's too
                              late to pretend otherwise now.  Why don't you
                              just erase all this instead and pretend you're
                              still a good and just person?
                              \_ First of all, you are responding to a
                                 different person than the one who wrote
                                 the "enemy of my enemy" phrase. Not everyone
                                 who disagrees with you is the same person.
                                 Secondly, it is a phrase, not taken literally
                                 by normal, sane people. Does any individual
                                 consider themselves the "enemy" of a sovereign
                                 power? No one I know. And how is disagreeing
                                 with Likud's policies "racist" again? Are
                                 Isrealis a race? Is the Likud party a race?
                                 Awaiting your reply. The only one who said
                                 they hated all the jews was you, remember.
                             \_ Note that the enemy phrase was applied to
                                "neocons". --some other guy
                                \_ Yeah, but psycho guy decided that he
                                   would change this into "jew" and then
                                   go on a rant about how anyone who
                                   disagreed with the neocons was really
                                   an Anti-Semite who wanted to kill all
                                   the Jews. Interesting political debate
                                   tactic, I must admit.
      \_ very interesting, I also agree with him in this regard.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29872 Activity:nil
3/16    Whee!  Everyone hates us and the Morrocans and Jordanians all want
        to blow us up:
        \_ Bring it on!
        \_ we should tactical nuke the pakistan/aghan border
           \_ There would be much time, and little to do.  But...ah...with
              ze proper breeding techniques, and a ratio of zay...ten females
              to each male...I would guess zat zey could zen work their way
              back to ze present gross national product within, zay, twenty
2004/3/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12710 Activity:very high
3/16    This is a perfect example of what I was saying the other day about
        why I don't want my President to be tremendously popular in foreign
        nations.  This doesn't in any way endear me to Kerry or anyone else
        who gets this sort of high praise from foreigners.  Remember, everyone
        has puts their own interests first, yours second, if at all.
        \_ shrug, Bush is a moron anyway.  Can't blame them for liking
           the less idiotic candidate.
           \_ Call me when Kerry has an opinion on something.
           \_ Kerry is nothing special.  He's done nothing of note in the
              Senate.  He's an elitist pig and his campaign was only able to
              just pull up even with Bush after 8 months of free Bush bashing
              during the (D)em primaries.  You think his ratings will
              suddenly improve now that Bush is fighting back?  You think
              to know him is to love him and his ratings will somehow go up
              as time goes on?  This election is a referendum on Bush.  He
              could be running against any loser/winner and it wouldn't
              matter.  Kerry's running mate won't matter.  Debates won't
              matter.  In November we'll all find out for real if voters want
              or do not want Bush and his policies.  The desires of foreign
              leaders, their people, the UN, and non-voters are unimportant.
              \_ And when the bill for Iraq pops up again, I'm sure those
                 foreigners will pop in a few hundred million to help cover
                 the tens of billion dollars the US is spending there. Who
                 cares what they think?
                 \_ A few hundred million is *nothing* compared to the 160
                    *billion* we'll have put into Iraq and Afghanistan by
                    this summer.  The price of their 'friendship' is too high.
                    Do the math.
                    \_ foreginers pretty much foot the bill for the entire
                       gulf war one.  this iraq war two is illegal and immoral.
                       US is a very bad friend in asking its allies to support
                       its illegal and immoral war.  it's right to refuse
                       instead of succumbing to us pressures and bribes.
        \_ Yes, because having the world despise Bush has helped the US so much.
           \_ If they loved him it wouldn't matter.  Foreign intelligence
              services (including France, Germany and Russia) are still
              working very closely with ours.  The French have 200 elite
              special forces guys working closely with ours on the Afghanistan
              Pakistan border looking for bin Laden conducting active missions
              and the leaders of other Muslim countries that should hate us
              according to your theories such as Saudi Arabia are working with
              us and actively tracking down and killing terrorists where ever
              they find them.  How exactly would good Bush PR around the
              glone help?
              \_ So the whole Iraq thing doesn't count anymore?
                 \_ What are you talking about?  What do you mean by "doesn't
                    count"?  Huh?  I honestly don't understand what you're
                    getting at.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12709 Activity:nil
3/16    "It--mah' view uh--uh de situashun wuz dat he--he had--we--we recon',
        de best intelligence dat we had and oda' countries had and
        dat--dat we recon'd and we still do not know--we gots'ta know."
        -- Donald Rumsfeld 3/15/04
        \_ I like poking him in the ribs and listening to him squeal. Hey
           inflamed gallbaldder boy, squeal some more!! <poke> <poke>
                \_ You realize that was ashcroft?
                   \_ No, he doesn't; he's an idiot.
        \_ there's that Princeton education talking...
        \_ Then again Saddam's 20,000 strong nuclear weapons program
           discovered after the first Gulf War was a big surprise to...
           Let's hear what Kerry had to say from the Congressional Record:
           "I will be voting to give the President of the United States
           the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm
           Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal
           of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and
           grave threat to our security."
           - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
                \_ Funny, Kerry seems to be the only one to believe that
                   there were WMDs.  Even Bush said (usually), only that
                   they were being "assembled", not that they were
                \_ I don't really care what Kerry said. Maybe he's an idiot
                   and was duped. The point is that the intelligence data
                   did not match the adminstration's talk, and Rummy's
                   comical verbal dancing is the result. It is fact that
                   the administration suppressed contrary intelligence and
                   presented their agenda with certainty before the public,
                   and even invented ridiculous stuff like the niger thing.
                   \_ It is opinion that anything was suppressed.
          "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent
          with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary
          actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile
          strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to
          the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons
          of mass destruction programs."
          - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin,
          Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
          \_ Hahahah 1998. How many chemical weapons have a shelf
             life of 5 years?
             \_ All of them.  Disprove it.  And until we went there we had no
                idea if *new* ones were being made or not.  Scott Ritter said
                the WMD programs were only 90-95% destroyed when they left in
                1998.  That means *not* 100% destroyed and thus still capable
                of making WMD.  Based on Scott Ritter's info alone we had
                reason enough to go in.
                \_ http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15854
                   Yawn. Another lie of yours exposed.
                   \_ alternet?  oh please.  I've seen Ritter say on live TV
                      before it was cool to say there was nothing there that
                      there was something there.  That was before he took $300k
                      in Saddam's blood money, btw.
                       \_There's no need to attack the source, this is the
                         exactly the same type of idiocy that _Time_ or any
                         other "reputable" news magazine would regurgitate.
                         \_ And the DIA and CIA.
                       \_ So you admit that you lied when you said that
                          all chemical agents have a shelf life of 5 years?
        \_ You understand that the "uhms" and "ahs" and other pauses and gaps
           are normally cleaned up for *all* politicians and other government
           figures.  By putting them back in you're not making him look stupid
           to educated people who actually understand how the media works.  I'm
           sure this impresses your ignorant friends, though.  Watch CSPAN for
           a few minutes.
           \_ Okay, why don't you assemble it into something intelligent.
              He only stumbled that much because he had no response.
              \_ remove all uhms and ahs.  next!
                 \_ there are no uhms or ahs in the quote, retard.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12707 Activity:nil
3/16    It was all based on lies by a couple of people.
        Just like I told you a year ago.
        \_ There's a guy sighted in this articles who's name is
           "Knight Ridder."  Is that a joke or what?
           \_ "Knight Ridder" is the company that owns a bunch of newspapers
               in the bay area. They are refering to the new agency. You're
               thinking of "Knight Rider"
        \_ What the... this article claims "No Iraqi Scud Missles have
           been found yet."  Hoookaay....
2004/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12701 Activity:high
        \_ Yay, an op-ed from the NY Post! By the way, why does freep get
           away with re-publishing thousands of articles on its own site?
           Isn't that copyright violation?
           \_ "Kenneth R. Timmerman is a senior writer for Insight magazine".
              BTW, you wouldn't know this but more New Yorkers read the Post
              than read the Times.  That probably doesn't matter to you since
              those are just the ugly masses of humanity.
              \_ quantity equals quality now huh? I see a lot of people reading
                 the front pages of Nat'l Enquirer and People in supermarkets.
        \_ Timmerman... That's a Jewish name, right?
           \_ I can feel the hate oozing from my monitor.  Do you attend
              KKK rallies too?  Beat up queers?  Attack blacks?
              \_ No, no... You've got it wrong.  Anti-semitism is PC
                 these days.
                 \_ Oh, sorry, my error.  I didn't realise it was "in" and
                    cool to hate Jews again.  I thought we were done with
                    that in the 40s.
                    \_ It is not. The Isrealis are just trying to convince
                       you that disagreeing with Isreal makes one anti-Semitic.
                       \_ No, the motd is covered with anti-Semitic hateful
                          statements that have nothing to do with Israel.  They
                          all come from people espousing leftist noise.  That
                          leads me to believe that the left hates Jews.
                          \_ How do you know where they come from? Maybe
                             they come from Right Wing Nazis.
        \_ Where are those WMD anyway? Could it be that both sides simply
           were fighting for self-interest? How dare those Frogs try and
           look out for themselves first! That is an American prerogative.
           \_ Everyone fights for self interest.  Why else fight?  And what
              is a 'prerogitate'?
              \_ I corrected it, but you changed it back. Boy, aren't
                 you clever.
                 \_ Shrug, whatever.  It was like that when I hit 'save'.
                    Use motdedit next time.
                    \_ I always use motdedit.
        \_ racist!
2004/3/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12669 Activity:nil
3/15    Spain to leave Iraq, because of new government voted in as a result
        of the terrorist bombings.
        Another Victory for the Terrorists, and an example of why they will
        crush the wimpy western democracies?  Discuss...
        \_ Turnging and turning in the widening gyre...
        \_ Sorry guys, the talking points this time are just stupid.  The
           Popular Party was not "way ahead in the polls."  They were within
           the margin of error.  The bombings, and the sloppy attempt to blame
           them on ETA, just pushed it over the edge.  The War in Iraq killed
           the PP and you guys know it.  Also, the "Socialist" party in Spain
           is no more socialist than the ruling parties in, say, Germany.
           \_ It sounded to me like:
              "It must have been the ETA"
              "Because they're terrorists."
              "But what about al Quaeda?"
              "It must have been the ETA"
              \_ You forgot the part where they took a kernel of truth and
                 lied from there.  "It must have been the ETA because they
                 had been planning an attack to coincide with the elections,"
                 which is true, but the bombings didin't fit with ETA's
                 modus operandi, and everyone knew it.
                 \_ It wasn't about difficult MO.  It was about the government
                    delaying the release of information.
2004/3/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12656 Activity:high
3/14    Australia has their own Bush poodles just like Britain and that
        weakling sycophant Blair.
        \_ Yup, he sure was a weakling standing up to both houses of the
           \_ yeah to be Bush's little poodle boy.
2004/3/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12655 Activity:nil
3/14    It really is time for the truth to come out:
        \- you know as i agree with this person in sentiment and she does
           name a lot of names, unlike say seymour hersh's reliance on
           unnammed sources, i was hoping this would have been a better
           article. i read her link on the 100yrs war, that that is so
           much garbage [http://www.sftt.org/dt030.html] it makes me think
           her a dullard. which is too bad. --psb
           \_ psb, would you please put some of your work online so we can
                decide whether you're a dullard or not?  Thanks.
2004/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29866 Activity:high
3/12    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/03/12/jessica.lynch.ap/index.html
        Why do people care about her still? Actually why did people
        even care about her in the first place?
        \_ You're supposed to be thinking about how an innocent GI got
           rescued, not the poor sods blowing up on a roadside bomb
                \_ ohhhhhhh. thanks.
2004/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12641 Activity:low
3/12    Might be a nice gesture to drop some flowers at the Spanish
        consulate or something.  They were pretty decent 2 1/2 years
        ago.  -John
        \_ never knew the motd was so kind.
           what was the motd like on 9/11/2001?
           \_ IIRC, motd was shut down for several days because of excessive
              kindness.  I believe the unofficial part was made less publicly
              accessible due to kindness poisoning also.
              \_ I believe it was given a cooling off period because a few
                 jackasses were talking about taking revenge on any "towelhead"
                 they saw.
                 \_ It was shut down because paolo's (he of the every-3-minute
                    MOTD deletion) girlfriend complained.  -tom
                    \_ And she was damned right to do so.  Did you read some of
                       the posts she included in her email?  It was more than
                       casual race baiting; people were talking about guns.  If
                       nothing else, that sort of thing would have gotten the
                       csua shut down if it had been made public.
                       \_ You can't shut down an organization because it
                          provides a forum for wackos.  Berkeley won't get
                          shut down because of all the nutjobs on Sproul.
                          In fact, you put yourself at more risk by attempting
                          to control a forum, because then you implicitly
                          are approving everything that shows up in it.  -tom
                          \_ I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
                 \_ Kind of OT, but what kind of relegion is Sihkism?  All I
                    know is they don't cut their hair, they wear a turban and
                    carry a ceremonial knife.
        \_ what do you mean pretty decent 2 1/2 years ago?
                \_ Meaning that after 9/11 a whole lot of people in Spain
                   and other Euro countries were pretty consoling and tried
                   to make whatever symbolic gestures they could.  Not
                   a big deal practically speaking, I guess, but I think it
                   meant a lot to them.  Dunno, you decide.  -John
        \_ Have you ever considered putting flowers in front of the Israeli
                \_ Because that's not terrorism, it's a war.
                   (and "war on terrorism" doesn't count)
                   \_ oh, so you think it's ok if Israeli rolls in the tanks
                      and just flattens all the arab areas?  After all it's
                      war and you've just said that killing civilians is ok.
                        \_ good attempt at a troll.
        \_ Why does the Basque people want independence from Spain?
           \_ The usual. They feel they are oppressed and ignored by the
              Spanish political and social support system.
              \_ Ask not what you can do for your country but what your country
                 can do for you!
           \_ Why did the Joos want their own country?
2004/3/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12617 Activity:high
3/10    Some military families rethink war against Iraq
        \_ Shall I respond for the Bush loyalists with "Why do you hate
           America?" and "Why do you support the terrorists?"
           \_ No, we can speak for ourselves without your knee jerk
              thoughtlessness and pointless insults, thanks.
        \_ So?  How many urls do you want to see where military families are
           quoted saying the opposite?  In a large enough group of people you
           can find 'some' people who believe or will say anything.  Why are
           you wasting bits?
           \_ The article also mentions the contrary view is the majority
              one for military families.  You're so smart, obviously; but
              let others read for themselves as well.  It was meaningful to
              me, hence it wasn't wasting bits; likewise, I think others
              may find the same.  After all, in a large enough group of
              people, can't we find "some" people who would appreciate it?
              \_ The motd isn't that large but I'll grant statistical anomaly.
              \_ Then the headline is misleading.
2004/3/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12595 Activity:low
3/10    WMD found in Iraq! http://www.dangermouse.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=209
2004/2/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12440 Activity:nil
2/28    Remember the former human shield guy?
2004/2/27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12430 Activity:kinda low
2/27    Nice folks over in Saudi Arabia.  Here's a bit about their recently
        relaxed visa & immigration policy:
        \_ This is news?
        \_ Uhm, yea, this has been the case in many countries in the region
           for decades (with restrictions on all of (1) Jew, (2), Israeli
           passport, and (3) Passport with an Israeli stamp).
2004/2/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12404 Activity:nil
2/24    Is this the end of DeBeers?
        \_ wasn't this in Wired like 3 months ago?
        \_ DeBeers has been aware of the threat of synthetic diamonds for a
           while now.  They've responded by putting micro-etching on the rim
           of natural diamonds gauranteeing their origin.  They also started a
           PR program to convince people that synthetic diamonds are like
           cheating by buying a cubic zirconia and that if you really love your
           woman you'll get her a 'real' diamond.  They have also started a
           program to help jewelers tell the difference between natural and
           synthetic diamonds, mainly that synthetics are 'too perfect'.
           The manufacturers fight back by calling them 'created diamonds' to
           emphasize the craftsmenship and the fact that they were not dug out
           of mud by people working for peanuts to finance some civil war.
           One other thing is large synthetic diamonds, if cut into flat pieces
           would make an excellent substrate for microprocessors.
                \_ "some civil war" and slavery and the drug trade, too.
                \_ It's true that diamond would make a nice material for
                   microprocessors, but there's a lot of materials black magic
                   that has to happen to make a current CPU.  It's not clear
                   how hard it'll be to replicate all the black magic on diamond.
           \_ Synthetic diamond is not quite up to the par just yet.  The
              gem-quailty diamond has a natual yellow tint. The funny thing is
              that in the past, natural yellow-diamond cost a bundle.  Until
              these guys managed to make gem-quality CLEAR-colored diamond,
              DeBeer is not really being threaten.
                        --one who hate DeBeer more than Microsoft.
              \_ they can manufactur clear colored diamonds. they however
                 found that they can make the yellow ones faster and charge
                 about the same, so they focus the manufacturing on yellow
                 diamonds. also, debeers wont come after them quite so fast
                 for now. you should read the Wired article, it explains this
                 very well.
              \_ Neither synthetic nor natural diamonds have to have a yellow
                 tint.  There is no 'natural' diamond color, although some
                 colors are more frequent than others.  Clear and yellow
                 (various shades) are most common, blue and red (I think) are
                 the rarest.  The price tends to rise with rarity of color.
                   -- ilyas
              \_ The colors come from impurities (non-diamond minerals).
2004/2/20-21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12338 Activity:kinda low
2/20    What France really said about WMD:
        AMANPOUR: Do you believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass
        destruction; for instance, chemical or biological weapons?

        PRESIDENT CHIRAC: Well, I don't know. I have no evidence to support
        that... It seems that there are no nuclear weapons - no nuclear weapons
        program. That is something that the inspectors seem to be sure of.

        As for weapons of mass destruction, bacteriological, biological,
        chemical, we don't know. And that is precisely what the
        inspectors' mandate is all about. But rushing into war, rushing
        into battle today is clearly a disproportionate response."
        \_ You and your damn facts!
        \_ "They've got bigger dicks?  BOMB THEM!" --GC
        \_ You mean France only made a single statement about WMD's?  Wow,
           why'd they sign up for 1441 then?
           \_ If he wants to cherry pick to make his points, he can do that.
              He isn't convincing anyone but himself and preaching to the
              choir, but I'm sure it makes him feel good and that's what this
              is all about, right?  Feeling good?
              \_ Y'know what?  Our claim regarding noncomplience with
                 Resolution 1441 has yet to be vindicated.  1441 said to
                 make full disclosure and allow inspectors in.  They made
                 their disclosure and let inspectors in.  We said their
                 disclosure wasn't full.  We have yet to prove ourselves
                 \_ Full disclosure isn't possible anymore since the Iraqis
                    claim they destroyed tons of documents and materials.  You
                    have the whole thing backwards.  We never had to prove
                    1441, it was a requirement for the other side.
                    \_ Reread what I said.  We (The U.S.) claimed that we
                       were right to go in because the actions taken by Iraq
                       hadn't brought them into compliance.  Apparently, as
                       we haven't found evidence to the contrary, they were
                       as much in compliance as possible.  I'm not challenging
                       the resolution.  I'm challenging our unilateral claim
                       that they were still in breach of it. -- And wait a
                       minute..  Reread what you said.  "They claimed they had
                       destroyed ... materials."  So...  They claimed they
                       destroyed it as per 1441, and ... the materials aren't
                       there.  Hrm...  Whose side are you arguing?
               \_ You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that France
                  believed Iraq was in possesion of WMD in spite of
                  overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I have repeatedly
                  asked for proof of your claim and you cannot come up
                  with one shred of evidence. Your position is laughable.
                        That's not what yermom told me! _/
                  So I guess yes, laughing at you makes me feel good.
                  Do you still call them Freedom Fries?
            \_ 1441 was sold to the UN members as a way of forcing Iraq
               to allow weapon's inspectors in. And it worked. It was not
               sold as authorizing a war against Iraq. Remember the US
               tried to go back to the UN and get another authorization
               and gave up once it became clear that France, Russia and
               Germany were all against it? Go read 1441. It warns Iraq
               of "serious consequences" but nothing else. It also
               affirms Iraq's territorial soveriegnty.
              \_ serious consequence like France, Germany loosing their
                 oil contract bribes from Oil for food programs?
                 \_ boo hoo!  those darn germans and french are getting
                    all the contracts.  The only ones who should get
                    contracts from dictators are us!  Like how we got
                    all the weapons and oil contracts from Suharto while
                    all the weapons and oil contracts with Suharto when
                    he was butchering the East Timorese!  The Germans and
                    that we can be te ones to get the oil contracts!
                    Only we can have good motives, the Germans and French
                    can only have ulterior motives!
                    French are not playing fair!  Let's invade Iraq so
                    that we can get our oil contracts!  Only we can have
                    good motives, the Germans and French can only have
                    ulterior motives!
2004/2/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:12316 Activity:high
2/18    just to remind you: the tubes found in Iraq could not have been
        used as centrifuges.  Nuclear (not "nukuler") experts all agree.
        Disagree at your own peril, neocon.  Your lies are being exposed.
        \_ This is very old news. I read about this at least two months
            ago. Nobody cares.
        \_  1) URL?  2) There are no 'neocons' on the motd  3) The first
            president to say "nukular" was Jimmy Carter, also a southerner,
            so get over it or stop showing off your ignorance and youth.
            4) tubes? frankly, who gives a shit?  join the rest of us in today.
            5) troll.  6) yawn.
            \_ Re: 3: URL?  Carter was an officer on a nuclear sub and had a
                BS from the US Naval Academy... perhaps you're thinking of his
                \_ Fuck you and your url's. Eveyone who doesn't live in
                   a box and communicate with the outside world through
                   usenet, slashdot and the motd knows this; and I actually
                   *like* Carter.
                   \_ Uh huh.  And it couldn't just be another urban legend that
                   \_ Uh huh.  And it couldn't be another urban legend that
                      you've never questioned?  Perhaps only cromulent people
                      who read freerepublic know this as gospel truth?
                      \_ I don't read freerepublic.  Since it's a slow day
                         at work, I'll choose to humor your dumb ass:
                         From American Heritage:
                         "You may want to avoid this pronunciation despite the
                          fact that it has been used in the recent past by some
                          prominent speakers including Presidents Eisenhower
                          and Carter."
                          \_ Thanks.
                          \_ "Nuclear" is just a hard word to say.  It seems
                             to break all the usual rules of English
                             pronunciation - of course, the confounding part
                             about English for non-speakers is just how many
                             words break those rules.
                      \_ I'm sorry, but that's an uncromulent use of the word
            \_ If you really have to ask for a URL for #1: -!op
               Anyways, you're late.  The Bush line is now "it was the CIA's
               fault since we all believed he had them, and anyway, he had
               WMD before and used them to kill tens of thousands, was
               thumbing his nose at the world, and we were going to make
               an example out of him to back up resolutions that the UN
               would not".
2004/2/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12313 Activity:high
2/19    Re the advanced centrifuge equipment found in Iran -- FINALLY it
        looks like the Bush administration is using something hard.
        \_ think iran is next in the invasion queue?
           \_ Do you think is the current instability there is a coincidence?
           \_ Do you think the current instability there is a coincidence?
           \_ No.  While Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Dubya were busy taking out
              Saddam (the guy who tried to assassinate Bush Sr.), someone
              competent was taking care of Iran.  The IAEA is inspecting,
              they already found serious equipment, and if the IAEA is
              kicked out, that's something real the UN and the US can work
              together on.  You also need to think about how this is
              different from the WMD inspectors getting kicked out of Iraq.
              \_ Um, it was after the invation of Iraq that Iran allowed the
                 IAEA in.
                 \_ so after we invade Iraq over made up WMD's, Libya offically
                    abandons its WMD program, and Iran starts letting
                    inspectors in.  Suddenly the costs of the Iraq invasion
                    are starting to look worth it after all...
                    \_ Sure, if the Bush administration thinks so, maybe
                       you'll see ads which claim this.  Maybe Bush Jr. will
                       bring this up in a debate! <orgasm>
2004/2/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12243 Activity:high
2/12    link:csua.org/u/5zk (sorry, you gotta register now)
        Most Americans believe President Bush either lied or deliberately
        exaggerated evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction
        in order to justify war, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News
        poll. ... The survey found that while nearly seven in 10 think Bush
        "honestly believed" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, 54 percent
        thought Bush exaggerated or lied about pre-war intelligence. ... In a
        head-to-head matchup, Kerry beat Bush, 52 percent to 43 percent,
        among registered voters polled by the Post.
        \_ Head-to-head matchups always look like that at this stage.  Kerry
           is still the generic "other" candidate at this point.  Once voters
           get a chance to learn more about him he'll drop like a rock.  This
           happens at every election.  Is this your first?
        \_ I wonder how many people believe, as I do, that Bush lied, but
           that the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do anyway(
           albeit 10 years overdue.)
           \_ why dont' we invade North Korea, then?
              \_ People keep saying this, and it sounds stupid every time.
                 North Korea has more than a million troops, artillery trained
                 on Seoul, lots of poison gas they have been testing on humans
                 for a decade, and tacit support from China, which could
                 suddenly turn very much less tacit in case of an invasion.
                 North Korea is the most fucked up thing in the world today,
                 but there is little we can do about it.
                 \_ don't forget, they've got nukes
                 \_ Isolating North Korea is just as stupid as sanctioning
                    Iraq.  All the surrounding nations know that the best
                    way to deal with North Korea is to help them open up
                    to the rest of the world rather than being unnecessarily
                    antagonistic towards it.
                    \_ It's tricky with the state sponsored terrorism and
                       lies and general bad attitude they've always had.
                       Not to meantion it has traditionally pissed off
                       the south.  Don't think it hasn't been tried.
                       (Carter anyone?) Read "The Two Koreas" Oberdorfer
                       and come back.
                       \_ Carter?  But that was when the Soviet Union still
                          exist, and when China is still truly commie.
                          These days, even China is encouraging N.Korea
                          to open up.  It's time to try again.
                          \_ China is no different today.  It's still a one
                             party dictatorship.  China is still a tightly
                             controlled and closed country.  They're not the
                             poster boys for opening up.
                             \_ what have you been smoking?  china is
                                following the classic path to prosperity
                                and open society followed by all the esteemed
                                US allies like japan, sk, taiwan, spore,
                                etc. - open economy up first while
                                retaining authoritarian rule, do that
                                for like 20 years, then go for democracy.
              \_ Nukes and Japan don't mix. Well, not anymore....
                 \_ They mixed quite well last time.
           \_ I think WMD was one of several things they had to choose from to
              justify the invasion.  The intel was wrong and they got burned.
              I never really cared either way what WMD Iraq had.  I have always
              believed that to have left Hussein in power after the first GW
              was painfully stupid so kudos to anyone who finally got rid of
              the vicious evil psycho bastard.  The rest is white noise.
              \_ No, GWHB was right not to destroy Hussein during GW1. The
                 mistake was not following up afterwards when Saddam started
                 chemming his own people. That could have been justified and
                 probably created Kurdistan. Nation Building is hard.
                 \_ Why do you believe it was right?  I think it was horrible
                    that we/he encouraged a revolt and then let them get
                    slaughtered.  That one act caused more hatred and mistrust
                    (and rightly so) than anything else we've fucked up in the
                    area in decades.  I'm pro-Kurdistan if they'd give up the
                    anti-Turkey terrorism.
           \_ I know when this thing first got started I had no problem with
              the "getting serious" on Saddam's ass. And it seemed to be
              working. But then there was the buildup and rush to war that
              didn't make sense at just that time, except Bush had already
              started the buildup and was going in no matter what. So that
              whole situation didn't make sense, and it hurt US credibilty,
              and probably has cost us more in money and lives than need be.
              \_ There's no such thing as 'credibility' in the international
                 world.  Only power counts.  Military and economic power are
                 the source of all diplomatic power.  Nice guys finish last.
                 Peace with honor and all that, eh?
                 \_ Which explains why so many nations with large armies and
                    economies are beating down the US's door to help out in
                    Iraq AND the UN-sanctioned invasion of Afghanistan.
                    \_ Why should they?  It behooves them to let us spend our
                       troops and cash which weakens us which makes them
                       relatively strongly which is the ultimate goal of any
                       country.  Anyway, there are no other countries with
                       large armies and vibrant economies to help out.  It was
                       all for show the first time and we demonstrated that we
                       didn't need the dog'n'pony show the second time if they
                       didn't want to play along.  The United States has gone
                       beyond Super Power status.  No nation has ever had such
                       incredible military, economic, cultural, or diplomatic
                       might and influence over the rest of the world.  Rome is
                       dinky and provincial by comparison.  If this country
                       falls it can only happen from within or through an act
                       of God such as a plague which causes uncontrollable
                       social strife.
              \_ Look, I agree that Bush fucked it up.  I'm just saying
                 that between Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr., doing
                 nothing in Iraq but slowly killing them by sanctions
                 was a totally unacceptable course of action.
                 Also, while I'm neither a neocon nor a republican, I agree
                 strongly with the neocon position that drastically
                 changing the balance of power in the middle east is in the
                 best interests of America and the rest of the world and
                 that it's long overdue.
                 \_ only way to do so is to install an American-friendly
                    dictator in Iraq.  We's done that in Iran and the
                    balance of power shifted in other way.  From balance
                    of power point of view, support establishment of Palestine
                    would do more to shift balance power in our favor,
                    reduce the cause for anti-americanism, and estblish a
                    safer region for our energy supply.
                    \_ And lead to the destruction of the only democracy in
                       the middle east which we're just not willing to do.
           \_ Invasion of Iraq is bad idea.  There are better means to
              influence and change Iraq and the Middle East.  Military
              invasion is too costly, and the US military is now tied
              down there for an extended period, and budget deficit is
              shooting through the roof.  The problem with Americans is
              that they play too much shoot'em up video games.  Only problem
              is in the real world the game doesn't end after blasting away
              the bad guys.  Invasion of Iraq and getting rid of Saddam is
              easy and quickly attained, but the real task is nation building,
              and US has a crappy record of nation building.  Short-term
              national interest and influence of special interest groups
              usually get the upper-hand over what is in the best
              interest of the nation and people we are supposedly trying
              to help.  Only thing we can do is keep on attacking the
              Bush admin and the following Kerry admin to keep them on the
              right track as opposed to capitulating to the evil side of
              US Imperialism.
              \_ The Kerry admin?  You were doing really well until you got
                 silly at the end.  If you had done this straight instead of
                 turning it into a partisan rant you would have been more
                 convincing.  "US Imperialism" isn't what you think it is.
                 The thing other countries fear most in the long run is not
                 our military, but our culture.  They all know we're not going
                 to just take over the world like the Romans conquering every-
                 thing in sight.  But our culture is something that easily
                 spreads through tv, radio, movies, and multinational corps
                 using highly advanced advertising techniques that their people
                 aren't used to and can't ignore as well as we can.  *That* is
                 where we're truly conquering the world and they know it.  The
                 military thing is just the standard ancient bit about securing
                 resources.  Romanization took many generations in conquered
                 territories and often didn't stick while costing the Romans
                 untold wealth to fund their endless military campaign.  But
                 Americanization actually generates wealth while conquering
                 other cultures.  It can be a bit slower but it is unstoppable
                 and they all know it.  *That* is what the Muslim fascists are
                 fighting against and why they hate us.  That is why we can
                 never make peace with them.  They see our very existence as
                 a threat to their continued existence.
              \_ Um.  The US has a crappy record of nation building?  Wtf are
                 you smoking Mr. Chicom troll?  US basically built all of the
                 western post WWII world from scratch.  Its successes include
                 modern Western Europe and Japan.  The successes of your
                 favorite country China include a broken off independent
                 Taiwan, and the happy amusement park full of gulags and gas
                 chambers that is North Korea.
                 \_ Are you on drugs?  Western Europe nations have a long
                    history of democratic institutions, highly educated
                    population and strong industries stretching back
                    decades before WWII.  It's a matter of putting things
                    back together as opposed to starting out from nothing.
                    It also shares cultural heritage with the US.  Finally,
                    WWII wasn't started by the US.  We intevened when
                    we were attacked, whereas in Iraq, we started the war
                    to destroy non-existent WMD.  This is in contrast to
                    Afghanistan where we justifiably invaded because that's
                    where Osama is hiding.  The general principle should
                    always be to set a good example, and to use soft power
                    to influence and cajol, and to only use the military
                    when there is an imminent threat.  As for your chicom
                    name calling, let me put it this way: calling me a
                    chicom is as silly as calling Bush Jr. a Vietnam War
                    war hero.
                    \_ I think this statement should be modified.  NO ONE
                       has a "good" record of nation building.  The US has
                       a realitively good one, with places like S. Korea
                       and the phillipines under its belt.  All of western
                       Europe has a terriable one.  I think it's just a
                       bad idea in general.
                       \_ I don't disagree with you.  Some questions for
                          the two examples of successful nation building
                          you have given:  How many decades were SK and
                          Philippines ruled by dictators after US "interven-
                          tion"?  How long did it take for SK to climb out of
                          poverty?  When will that happen for the Philippines?
                          How many people were killed by the dictators
                          in say island of Cheju?  Nation building is best
                          done by the people of the nation itself, perhaps
                          with some soft power encouragement from the US.
                          \_ The interesting question is not "when" or "how
                             long" but why did SK crawl out of poverty?  The
                             answer is they opened up and started trading with
                             us and joined the West.  The rest of the world
                             will remain a shithole until they recognise the
                             failure of their current system and westernise.
                             \_ Nah, it seems that you haven't realized, but
                                the question has always been what is the
                                best way to make them join us.  And then
                                there is another question which is whether
                                we really are trying to help them join us
                                or just catering to our self-term interest
                                or trying to build another british empire.
2004/2/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12218 Activity:high 61%like:10955
2/11    Colin Powell losing it:  (buh-bye legacy!)
        \_ "Losing it" != telling off insolent, disrespectful idiots during a
           formal hearing, at which you are expected to conform to rules of
           order.  It would have been equally correct of Clinton to go off on
           someone treating him this way when answering a question posed by some
           drooling old congressman about "where he stuck that cigar". -John
           \_ yes, but can you give an example where Clinton went off like
              that?  And if he did, wouldn't you also think Clinton was
              on uncertain footing when he did tell someone off?
              -anonymous coward & op
        \_ Hmm, Colin Powell vs. anonymous adolescent on MOTD in support
           of insolent pages and socialists?  I'll stick with
           member of the lowest profession earth?  I'll stick with
           Powell thanks.
        \_ Powell?  Losing it?  Racist.  I'll bet you've spent time trying to
           fabricate dirt on Condi, too.
        \_ IMO, he's losing it.  I think he's saluting the flag, and getting
           pretty irritated at the prospect of the tarnishing of his
           reputation from loyalty to Bush.  Also, IMO, if you ever find
           yourself using the phrase "let's not go there", you've already
           Powell thanks.
           fabricate dirt on Condi, too.
           lost. -op
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12196 Activity:nil
2/10    Why are you wondering about WMD? Bush already said they found them.
        End of story. "We've found the weapons of mass destruction."
        \_ Uh, huh.  And they were where, exactly?
2004/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12190 Activity:very high
2/10    So what do you guys think:
        (a) WMDs were destroyed before the war
        (b) WMDs are buried in the desert in the middle of nowhere
        (c) WMDs are in Syria/Lebanon/etc
        (d) There were never any WMDs
        (e) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        \_ No fair relabeling your options.  It makes everyone look nonsensical
        \_ Aren't you sick of this topic already?
        (d) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        (d) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        \_ I don't think even Wolfowitz was nutty enough to suggest (d).
        \_ how about:
        \_ I don't think even Wolfowitz was nutty enough to suggest (e).
        \_ We know some of (A) is true.  (B) wouldn't be a bad guess since
           the Iraqis have buried plenty of other things in the sand but
           obviously there's no proof (B) is true or we wouldn't be wondering
           about it.  (C) is based on intelligence rumors which is never a
           100% guarantee especially in the Middle East.  American intel has
           been weak since we started putting up lots of high quality spy
           satellites and letting the human intel skills dry up.
        \_ I think, more than likely, people under hussein probably had
           them destroyed to try and get back into the graces of the UN,
           and that the posturing was a balance between putting on a show
           of strength for their general populace and appeasing hussein.
           The inspectors were there and were looking.  We should have let
           them continue.  It was, apparently, an effective containment.
           \_ Wait... that makes no sense.  Why would people under Hussein
              want to get into the graces of the UN?  UN could not save them
              from Hussein sending them to shredders.  What possible motive
              do they have for trying to appease an org which could do NOTHING
              for them, vs. appeasing a dictator who could kill them on a whim.
              Hussein had nothing to gain by giving up WMDs.  At the same time,
              almost every major nation except the US had something to gain
              by having US appear with an egg on their face.  Thus, what I think
              happened is, the WMDs are in Syria, possibly with Russian, etc.
              help.  Of course, it will be really difficult to prove, since
              Syria can move them somewhere else, or destroy them discreetly.
              \_ I think by "people under Hussein" scotsman is referring to his
                 underlings, not his peasants.  The people in his party would
                 want to help him avoid getting invaded.  That being said, if
                 there were WMDs, it wouldn't surprise me if they had were in
                 Syria or buried in the desert.
                 \_ BUSH IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
                 \_ [ I have less patience than poster below. ]
                    \_ Good way to kill a decent conversation, trollboy.  I'd
                       censor your dumb ass but I believe everyone has the
                       right to publicly demonstrate just how stupid they are.
           \_ There was a really great article about this subject by the
              guy who wrote "A Gathering Storm."  Wish I had the URL, but
              basically he had a fairly good argument that the WMD thing
              post 1995 was a bluff meant to help Saddam's domestic
              political situation.  There's also the whole issue of the
              large numbers of weapons scientists who were claiming to
              work on programs in order to get money but then simply
              embezzling it.  Then again, his book turned out to be all
              wrong so who knows.
              \_ Uhm, in 1998 the entire world still believed Iraq had WMD
                 when the inspectors left so either the bluff was very
                 effective and Iraq's internal security aparatus was rock
                 solid or there were WMDs somewhere in Iraq.
                 \_ Uhm, please don't speak for the entire world when
                    your knowledge of the world is limited by what
                    your third rate media and press dumps on ya.
                    \_ Gee, you're right.  I never read foreign press or see
                       what foreign dignitaries say or do anything else but
                       mindlessly suck up what ABC/NBC/CBS dish out at 8pm
                       everynight!  Thanks for enlightening me!  Ok, asshole,
                       back here in the real world, the entire world is on
                       public record as believing there were WMD in Iraq in
                       the 1998 post-inspector era.  Thank you.
                       \_ You keep saying, but it is still not true. Hans
                          Blix said otherwise, Colonel Ritter (Retired US
                          Marine Corp Colonel, head of the UN Inspection
                          Team in 1998) and Russia said otherwise. Your
                          repetition of a lie in the face of overwhelming
                          evidence makes you less credible. It does not
                          make the lie more believable.
                          \_ Now you're just outright lying.  I've seen
                             interviews with both Blix and Ritter and both
                             have said in public interviews that there were
              wrong so who knows.
                    your knowledge of the world is limited by what
                    your third rate media and press dumps on ya.
                          repetition of a lie in the face of overwhelming
                          evidence makes you less credible. It does not
                          make the lie more believable.
                             still WMD in Iraq in 1998 post-inspectors.  I was
                             going to give you the benefit of the doubt and
                             just call you ignorant but you've gone beyond
                             \_ Prove it. I have the URLS and have posted them
                                time and time again. Show me the interviews
                                where Hans Blix or Ritter say that there
                                are still WMD in Iraq. You will never be
                                able to produce them because they never
                                said any such thing. You are just a big
                                fat liar.
                          \_ But, but, but it works for Fox News!
           \_ bingo. nicely put.
2004/2/6-7 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12127 Activity:nil
2/6     WSJ babbles incoherently about WMD and whatever.
        \_ It's a nice theory: We invaded Iraq, therefore Libya gave up their
           weapons, Iran capitulated to inspections, and the lone weapons-
           proliferator in Pakistan threw up his hands and confessed all.
           It's nice because they're absolutely correct about Libya, but it
           falls down when it comes to Iran, where negotiations for
           inspections have been getter more and more amicable since before
           the invasion, and Pakistan, where if you really believe that one
           man, on his own, coordinated the proliferation of WMD to Pyongyang
           and Tripoli, I've got a nice slice of peaceful Kashmir to sell you.
           \_ Negotations in Iran had been going nowhere fast until very
              recently.  It's obvious to everyone that Khan didn't do the
              nuclear proliferation thing on his own or without his government
              knowing and approving.  That's an easy one.
2004/2/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12103 Activity:nil
2/4     Faith Based Intelligence:
2004/2/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29777 Activity:very high
2/3     U.S. troops dying at rate over 1 a day in Iraq
        \_ fascinating!  do you have peace time numbers to compare?
           \_ ...in IRAQ.
              \_ fascinating!  do you have peace time numbers to compare?
                 \_ Interesting article that explores the numbers:
                    Well, collection of letters.  One references this report
                 \_ What in the hell are you talking about?  Are you trying
                    to imply that 47 US soldiers died in Iraq in a month before
                    we invaded?
                    \_ not at all, I simply requested more information.  if
                       you don't have it, just say so.  no need to get so
                       \_ Its the motd.  There's no such thing as a question
                          without an ulterior motive.  But anyway, no, I was
                          posting a random AP wire, not a research paper.
                          \_ Ok, so this is just a meaningless unresearched
                             out of context random factoid?  Cool, thanks.
                             \_ Look, the ulterior motive rears its ugly
                                \_ not at all.  i only asked to see if it was
                                   standard motd drivel or OP actually knew
                                   what they were talking about for once.
                                   \_ ok, now you've seen scotsman's link
                                      which has a peacetime fatality rate
                                      an order of magnitude lower than what
                                      we're seeing in Iraq.  So now what do
                                      you say?  -tom
                                      \_ By 'peacetime' do you mean 'when
                                         uncle Saddam was in power?'
                    \_ 47 days in a month? psycho!
                       \_ *over* one per day are dying.
                         \_ say over 1.5 are dying then twink
                            \_ What in Sam Hill you talkin' about boy?
        \_ stop masturbating on the motd, people.
           \_ My vagina is angry!
              \_ pixP
2004/2/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12080 Activity:nil
2/2     Someone mentioned how that Kurdish thing didn't get much attention.
        How about the 250+ muslims who got killed in Mecca yesterday? As
        usual they got trampled in a stampede.
        \_ The 'Kurdish thing' is on CNN as a major headline.  What more do you
           want, a guy going door-to-door?  The incident in Mecca hasn't gotten
           nearly enough press though -- gotta agree with you there.
           \_ I just went to their web page and don't see it. I get a big pic
              of Sharon's face. I do see the Mecca story at the bottom.
              \_ Huh?  It's still there.  "Death toll climbs in Iraq suicide
                 \_ Not so obvious for your average American.  I bet a whole
                    bunch didn't even notice over the Super Bowl festivities.
        \_ Yeah, but see, the U.S. has a track record for abandoning the
           Kurds, and it seems we haven't gotten out of the habit yet
           \_ Except for the fact that this is major news in all the newspapers
              CNN and other cable TV and on the nets.  No cookie.
              \_ uh, no.  Please see ~mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v for deleted
                 thread on this.
2004/2/1-2 [ERROR, uid:12060, category id '18005#2.25' has no name! , , Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12060 Activity:nil
2/1     Time magazine article on WMD-intelligence scandal.  You can also go
        to http://nytimes.com and http://washingtonpost.com today for more articles.
        \_ Bush will appoint Henry Kissinger and John Dean to get the
           bottom of this.
           \_ Get the bottom of this from where?
              \_ Where ever we are now?
2004/1/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29771 Activity:nil
1/29      Condi attacks WMD critics, spouts usual line:
          "The president's judgment to go to war was based on the fact that
           Saddam Hussein had for 12 years defied the international community."
          C'mon, Condi, we defied the international community because they
          defied the international community?
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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