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2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/18   

2014/1/2-2/5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:54761 Activity:nil
1/2     "What would a U.S.-China war look like?"
        http://www.csua.org/u/122i (theweek.com)
2013/8/2-10/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:54723 Activity:nil
8/2     http://www.csua.org/u/10v0 (news.yahoo.com)
        "A massive new study finds that aggressive acts like committing
        violent crimes and waging war become more likely with each added
        degree."
        \_ ah crap, I shouldn't have gotten my graduate degree.
        \_ racist!
           \_ Just in case, "degree" here refers to degree Fahrenheit. -- OP
              \_ Not degrees celsius? Phew, we are safe!
2011/11/6-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:54212 Activity:nil
11/6    By a 2:1 ratio Americans think that the Iraq war was not worth it:
        http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
        \_ Bad conservatives. You should never change your mind, and you
           should never admit mistakes.
           \_ Most "tea party" conservatives still support the war. It is the
              weak-kneed moderates that have turned against America.
2011/2/28-4/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:54051 Activity:nil
2/28    "Who Owns the U.S.?"
        http://www.csua.org/u/smw
        Hint: It's not only Mainland China.
        \_ You may find the third segment of this TAL show of interest
           as it talks about what that debt really is or isn't.
           http://csua.org/u/sot
2011/2/16-4/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:54041 Activity:nil
2/16    "Iraqi: I'm proud my WMD lies led to war in Iraq"
        http://www.csua.org/u/sl0 (news.yahoo.com)
        \_ Duh.  the best thing that could ever happen to a country is
           the US declaring war on it.  cf: japan, germany, and now iraq.
           the US winning a war with it.  cf: japan, germany, and now iraq.
2010/12/20-2011/2/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53980 Activity:nil
12/20   "Assange.s lawyer wants investigation of leaks (about Assange)"
        http://www.csua.org/u/s6i (news.yahoo.com)
        Speaking of eating one's own medicine ......
        \_ http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/27/wikileaks
           The War on Wikileaks and Why It Matters
2010/9/26-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53966 Activity:nil
9/24    Toture is what gave us the false info on WMD and Iraq.
        http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/09/25/opinion/1248069087414/my-tortured-decision.html
        Where is the apology jblack?
2010/7/20-8/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53889 Activity:low
7/20    Is jblack still on? What about the rest of the pro-war cheerleaders?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100720/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_iraq_inquiry
        \_ War is fought for the glory of generals and the economics of the
           war machine.  Looking for "justifications" for it is like looking
           for sense in the necronomicon.  Just accept it and move on.
        \_ When we fight with Red China, what nation will we use as a proxy?
           \_ Pakistan.
              \_ Oh, not korea?
                 \_ Supplying by land >>>> supplying over the pacific; see
                    any documentary on Guadalcanal.
           \_ Taiwan, I assume. Korea would work also, but a bit harder to get
              started, for both sides.
              \_ Probably Taiwan, but really any country in the region that we
                 give two spits about and that PRC cares to invade.
              \_ How would you supply Taiwan if the PRC blockades the Yellow
                 Sea and the Balintang Channel?
                 \_ How does China re-inforce their invasion force in the face
                    of 13 US aircraft carriers? We both have the same problem,
                    which would make it kind of interesting. China would be
                    smarter to pick a fight over a place they can resupply by
                    land, but they probably don't want to have to deal with
                    North Korea either.
                    \_ They're alot closer to Taiwan, and cargo in subs.
                       \_ The Japanese tried that in Guadalcanal
                          \_ Those weren't real subs, those were diesel
                             submersible ships. Also, we broke their code.
        \_ Good thing Iraq is a shining example of Democracy and Freedom
           in the Middle East. Now everyone there will want to be our ally:
           http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100727/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq
           \_ There's a bridge in San Francisco I want to sell you.
2010/4/1-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53766 Activity:nil
4/1     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100401/ap_on_re_af/af_piracy
        Pirates attacked a guided missile warship.  What on earth were they
        thinking???
        \_ "If we take *puff* over that huge *puuuuff* warship with the
            *puffffff* missiles we'll be able to *cough* take on anything
            and be really *puff cough* rich!"
            \_ :-)
2010/3/12-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53752 Activity:nil
3/11    The lateste female Jihad is a blond, green-eyed, white middle-aged
        married woman!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100310/ts_csm/286499
        I guess racial/gender/whatever profiling doesn't work.
        \_ Sure it works. It may not be 100% foolproof, but I guarantee
           there are a lot fewer people like her wishing Death To America
           than there are swarthy Middle Eastern types.
2010/2/22-3/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53722 Activity:nil
2/20    Ok serious question, NOT political.  This is straight up procedural.
        Has it been declared that we didn't find WMD in iraq? (think so).
        So why did we go into iraq (what was the gain), and if nobody really
        knows, why is nobody looking for the reason?
        \_ Political stability, military strategy (Iran), and to prevent
           Saddam from financing terrorism.
           \_ Ok, fair answers. I grant you 2 and 3 probably actually worked
              was that the political stability we were looking for?
              what i mean is, wasn't that area "stable" under saddam?
              \_ This is somewhat of a guess, but it wasn't stability of Iraq
                 that was the concern, but stability of the entire Middle East.
                 During the first Gulf War, Sadaam demonstrated that he was
                 more than willing to launch missles at Israel and Saudi
                 Arabia. That was largely the reason why the US had troops
                 in Saudi Arabia. And the presence of troops in Saudi Arabia
                 was one of the major reasons (among many I'm sure) why OBL
                 was so angry the US. After Sadaam's capture, the US pulled
                 its troops out of Saudi Arabia.
                 \_ So basically the people threatened with Saudi and Israel
                    and we got the whole world to help the two nations that
                    arguably the rest of the world hates more than the US.
              \_ I think it is pretty clear that the Gulf War strengthened
                 Iran strategically.
                 \_ Did you notice iran went for a nuclear enrichment
                    program just to save themselves?  I guess they learned
                    from iraq and dprk, if you have no nukes, you are
                    screwed.  Will it be a balance of power in the region
                    Iran/Pakistan?
                 \_ Having a battle-tested US army on your border is not
                    a position of strength if you are anti-US.
                    \_ This is a temporary situation. A weak, divided Iraq
                       is a huge win for Iran. Remember Iraq fought two bloody
                       wars with Iran in the 80s.
                       \_ Well, yes, but largely at our behest (cf. pix of
                          Rusmfeld shaking hands with Saddam) and mostly
                          because we were still pissed about the hostages
                          and the Iranians overthrowing our puppet, the Shah.
                          The biggest win for Iran here is that Iraq no
                          longer _wants_ to fight with Iran, even if it
                          could.
        \_ The reason was that the GOP needed to find a way to funnel taxpayer
           dollars to their big donors and the cover of a war was the easiest
           way to do this. Don't you remember the "Permanent Republican
           Majority?"
           \_ But isn't this the case for any administration- that the
              funneling comes regardless of whatever policy happens?
              \_ Sure, but defence contractors don't donate to Democrats.
                 Remember how Clinton slashed the DoD budget?
        \_ The reason that no one in the Administration is looking is that
           Rahm Emmanuel has the Prez's ear on policy right now, and RE's
           take on the whole thing is don't look back, don't investigate.
           Cf. RE blowing his top when Eric Holder started looking into
           whether CIA operatives could be prosecuted for tortuure.
2010/2/21-3/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53715 Activity:nil
2/19    "Using ladder, vet rescued people from Texas office"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_texas
        A real hero.  Not only did he climb up to the windows, he actually went
        inside the burning building when his ladder wasn't steady enough to
        save people.
2010/1/19-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53639 Activity:nil
1/19    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100118/ap_on_re_us/us_us_haiti_gates
        "(US ambassador to haiti) Merten ... described downtown Port-au-
        Prince, the capital city, as resembling "Tokyo at the end of the
        Second World War."
        What kind of stupid remark is that!?  He could have said London or
        Paris or any other city on the Allies side.  "Hey Haitians, your place
        looks like that other city that we once bombed the hell out of."
        \_ are you an idiot?  London and Paris didn't have the crap bombed out
           of them at the end of the second world war.  -tom
           \_ "The Blitz and other bombing by the German Luftwaffe during
              World War II killed over 30,000 Londoners and destroyed large
              tracts of housing and other buildings across London"
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London#Late_modern_and_contemporary
              \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
                 "...the most destructive bombing raid in history."
                 Paris was not damaged at all during WWII.
              \_ OK, thanks for answering my question.  ("yes.")  -tom
2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/18   

2009/9/3-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53328 Activity:nil
9/3     Bad news for global warming problem:
        'BP Makes "Giant" Oil Find in Gulf of Mexico'
        http://www.csua.org/u/ozl (finance.yahoo.com)
        \_ The US produces over 8 million barrels a day now.  This find
           "could contain over 1 billion barrels," and "it could be the
           second half of the next decade before the find is producing."
           Peak oil isn't about running out of oil--it's about taking too
           long to bring new production online to be able to meet the
           demand curve.  -tom
           \_ I see.  Then maybe it's not that bad of a news for global warming
              problem.  -- OP
              \_ The really bad thing for global warming is when conventional
                 oil fields decline enough to make heavy crude and oil sand
                 production economically feasible.  That won't save us from
                 peak oil, but it will dump a whole bunch of extra greenhouse
                 gas into the atmosphere.  -tom
                 \_ Coal. We have lots of it and it is cheap. That is what
                    we should be worried about.
                    \_ Yes, coal-to-gas has similar (worse) issues.  -tom
        \_ just stop the gulf stream, instant ice age.
2009/8/17-9/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53275 Activity:nil
8/17    After Civil War reenactment, there is now Vietnam Way reenactment!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_on_re_us/us_re_enacting_vietnam
        \_ Unbelievable! Where are they going to get all the "gooks"?
           Also I'm really surprised that of all the war reenactments,
           there hasn't been a nut case with loaded munition shooting
           at people.... or has there?
2009/6/29-7/15 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53084 Activity:nil
6/29    Browser war usage percentage:
        http://business.swivel.com/charts/1809-Browser-version-market-share
        \_ Why is Firefox 2.0 going up recently when 3.0 has already been
           released for a year?
2009/6/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53078 Activity:nil
6/4     "The Turf War Behind the Monster Jellyfish Crop Circle"
        http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/92634/?fp=1
        How does someone craft a pattern with mowers (presumably) over a 600ft
        area with such great accuracy?
        \_ Crop circles are usually done by flattening the grain with boards.
            -tom
        \_ GPS?
2009/5/18-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53007 Activity:kinda low
5/18    how come we interfere with Bosnia civil war, yet we don't even
        bother to raise complains about Sri Lankans' genocide toward
        their Tamili minorities?
        \_ it's a protest against recording artist M.I.A.
        \_ because our military capacity is overtaxed based on our
           insane implementation of PNAC's ridiculous vision of a
           US-controlled Iraq.  -tom
           \_ Maybe it's also because since after 9/11, we don't want to side
              with Tamil Tigers that has been labeled (by us?) as terrorists.
        \_ I'm not going to get into defending the Shi Lankan govt. treatment
           of Tamili civilians, but unless I missed something, I wouldn't
           call what happened genocide.  Just plain old not caring about who
           get caught in the middle of the war.  That's not good, but it's not
           genocide either.
        \_ Did I miss something? I wouldn't call what happened genocide.  Just
           plain old not caring about who get caught in the middle of the war.
           That's not OK, but it's not genocide either.
           \_ Sri Lanka's policy toward Tamil minority is genocide by all account.
              and such policy has been implemented for decades.  Then again, while
              we pick on Turky for their role on genocide, we never pick Austrilia's
              genocidal policy toward their native population.
           \_ Sri Lanka's policy toward Tamil minority is genocide by
              all account.  and such policy has been implemented for
              decades.  Then again, while we pick on Turky for their
              role on genocide, we never pick Austrilia's genocidal
              policy toward their native population.
              \_ Australia has a *current* policy of genocide?  Please
                 provide some proof of that.  -tom
                 \_ Untangling the thought process of the previous poster will
                    no doubt get me bit by both wild dogs in the argument, but
                    I have to try: I think pp was trying to draw a parallel
                    between TY's historical genocidal slaughter of ethnic
                    Armenians and AU's historical aborted attempt at genocide
                    by kidnapping and brainwashing (known colloquially as
                    "The Stolen Generation"). Of course, the difference is that
                    Kevin Rudd, PM of AU, apologized for the historical
                    practice, whereas TY's PM has repeatedly denied his
                    country's attempt at genocide. HTH. -!pp
                    \_ And I haven't start on American and how they
                        dealt with with the native population.  And
                        FYI, Autrilia's effort is not an attempt, it's
                        been done, successfully.  And you think one
                        Prime Minister's apology, who doesn't really
                        even represent Austrilia as a nation is
                        sufficient enough?  My point to all is that
                        Americans held a very bias standard toward
                        "genocide."  and like it or not, it has more
                        to do with color of skin than anything else.
                        We hung Nazis, we critize Turkey, we keep
                                \_ Er, what color do you think they were?
                        quiet toward Austrilia, and we denies when it
                        comes to ourselves.
                        \_ How did Zachary Running Wolf get a soda
                           account?  -tom
              \_ If it is by "all account" then you should be able to provide
                 me with at least one account.
                 \_ if you care, just google it.
        \_ Bosnia is in PC Europe where genocide is not supposed to exist.
           That's not good, but it's not genocide either.
2009/4/22-28 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52888 Activity:nil
4/21    Hey Dr. jblack, turns out not only were the lying, they
        tortured people to make their case:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090422/pl_mcclatchy/3217245
        \_ And in other news, stress positions and waterboarding prevented
           another terrorist attack.  So much for the meme that torture doesn't
           work.
           \_ No, accoring to Dick Cheney, there is double top secret info
              that indicates that torture stopped another terrorist attack.
              He is the same guy who said there was proof that SH had WMD.
              \_ No, according to NYTimes, via Obama's national intelligence
                 director:
                 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html
                 \_ "was valuable in some instances" is not the same as
                    your claim that it prevented another terrorist attack.
        \_ slavery also works.  should we reinstate it?  Just don't cry when
           some American being accused being spy in Iran, ok?
2009/3/9-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:52689 Activity:moderate 75%like:52678
3/6     Chinese UNIX^H^H^H^Heunuchs Museum:
        http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/06/biography-of-the-las.html
        \_ Oh come on. Nobody appreciated the UNIX/eunuchs pun? -op
           \_ Thanks. I was too young to understand what ^H meant until
              now. Great link. Let's castrate everyone to rid the world's
              problems, like over-population and war.
                \_ FYI: some of the historically most corrupt people have
                   been eunuchs.
                   \_ Like who? And what does that have to do with anything?
                     \_ I'm not your babysitter.  It has to do with "war."
                        \_ Then it's not FOI is it?  It's just you being a
                           wanker.
                           If you got rid of overpopulation you'd be rid
                           of war, mostly.
                                \_ learn to use google.  It's pretty easy.
2009/2/9-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52544 Activity:nil
2/9     Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, May 1939
        "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever
        spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and
        now if I am wrong somebody else can have my job. I want to see this
        country prosper. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people
        get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. I say after
        eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment
        as when we started. And enormous debt to boot."
        \_ Let me guess, 6 years ago you were telling us how great the
           Iraq war was because look how WWII caused us to spend out of
           a depression?
           \_ Uh, no.  It was a cost that I think needed to pay for our safety.
              I was against Bush's expansion of medicare, against the first
              bailout and against Bush's unconstitutional cash grab for the big
              3.
                \_ rememebr when Iraq invaded us?  I wonder what motivates
                   people to think like this.
                   \_ Remember, in 2004 a majority of Bush voters believed
                      that Iraq was responsible for the WTC attacks, maybe
                      even our motd poster. What do you say guy who thinks
                      that attacking Iraq was needed to pay for our safety,
                      do you think that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11?
                      Did you believe this in 2004?
                      do you think that Saddam Hussein was responsible for
                      9/11? Did you believe this in 2004?
        \_ http://tinyurl.com/57nocs
           Stop lying about Roosevelt's record.
           \_ Uh, are you talking to FDR's friend and Treasury Sec'y?
2009/2/5-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52519 Activity:nil
2/5     Remember that Lancet study?  (Well, Lancet II actually.)  Turns out the
        authors refuse to release their methodology.
        http://www.abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=6799754&page=1
2009/2/3-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52503 Activity:nil
2/3     Bad economy is good for military (puts on conspiracy hat)
        http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/19/us/19recruits.html?_r=2&hp

        It wasn't just the market. (Governments steered the market into
        the wall.)
     http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/02/02/it-wasnt-just-the-market/#more-4618

        Wen Says Crisis Shows Dangers of Unregulated Markets
        http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601089&sid=ahk0bbmaDQm4
        \_ I agree with Comrade Wen.                            -comrade
        \_ The fetishtic more efficent markets are always better crowd
           forgets that an efficent system that is highly unstable
           is worse than worthless.
2009/1/20-26 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52424 Activity:moderate
1/20    BAC -29%, WFC -24%, JPM -21%, C -20%, GS -19%, MS -16% BCS -42% STT-59%
        \_ The Obama Administration begins!
           \_ Hope!
           \_ Yes, clearly today's decline is the market reacting to Obama
              suddenly and unexpectedly becoming President.
        \_ The Death Star bursts into a supernova, creating a spectacular
           heavenly display. </sorry>
        \_ We've had three consecutive months of massive DEFLATION (CPI
           decrease).  Expect it to continue at least a few more months,
           followed by hyperinflation (as the Fed injects as much cash into the
           system as it can).
           \_ If you think we are really going to have hyperinflation
              you are either too stupid to breathe or don't know what
              hyperinflation means.
              \_ Hyperinflation means Weimar.  Granted, it may only be as bad
                 as the 70s, but the money supply has grown over 70% since the
                 bailouts started.  The current annualized rate of deflation is
                 between 12% and 23%.  See here for what happened in
                 Yugoslavia.
                 http://www.rogershermansociety.org/yugoslavia.htm
                 \_ Umm, are you trying to say that we're going to have that
                    kind of inflation here, or not? -!pp
                 \_ Umm, are you trying to say that we're going to have
                    Weimar inflation here, or not? -!pp
                    \_ I think it's about 50/50 either 70s or Weimar.
                       \_ In that case, you should borrow lots of money
                          and buy solid assets.  I personally think 70's
                          is as bad as it is likely to get.
                          \_ That's about what I'm doing.  But I certainly hope
                             you're right and I'm wrong.
                             \_ I cannot name even one country with a
                                functioning military that has suffered
                                hyperinflation. It is usually defeated
                                countries and occasionally a total basket
                                case with no friends and no army like
                                Zimbabwe.
                                \_ Rome circa 300 AD, and the Confederacy
                                   are two examples.
                                   \_ The Confederacy is a great example of
                                      how a country that is losing a war or
                                      has just lost a war often suffers
                                      hyperinflation. Rome is a good
                                      counterexample, I have to admit.
                                      \_ What cause hyperinflation in Rome?
                                         Wasn't it a change in coinage or
                                         something?
                                         \_ Yeah, good point. Rome kept
                                            debasing the currency.
                                \_ I'm not sure what a military has to do with
                                   it.  It seems to happen in places with
                                   unusally destructive economic policies.
                                   ie Zimbabwe destroyed the main engine
                                   of its economy.
                                   I'm not terribly worried about it here
                                   because Bernenke is very anti-inflation.
                                   While I think Obama's economic policies
                                   seem a little hare-brained, they aren't
                                   THAT wacky.
                 \_ It depends on what you define as "money supply." If you
                    include credit (and most economists these days do) the
                    overall money supply has actually gone down.
        \_ occam's razor:  news has leaked to the big brokerages that govt is
           amenable to wiping out equity in a de facto nationalization.  arthur
           levitt (former sec chair) did two bloomberg podcasts on this
           yesterday and today.
           \_ Also, observe what happened in England.
              \_ hell, even Krugman wrote a piece on this a couple days ago
                 \_ Which one, the bad bank one? "Wall Street Voodoo?" He
                    doesn't exactly mention nationalization, just says that
                    the TARP is a bad idea.
2009/1/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:52356 Activity:moderate
1/11    Joe The Plumber: the media should be abolished
        http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/01/joe-plumber-media-shouldnt-report-war.html
        \_ Can you please just let this idiot go away already?
           \_ I would, but the media won't.  "Pajamas Media" hired him as a
              "Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face time.
              "Gaza war correspondent," and he still gets FoxNews/CNN face
              time.
               \_ Because you still pay attention to the idiot.
2009/1/2-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52308 Activity:nil
1/2     War over in Iraq
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010102079.html
2008/12/28-2009/1/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52300 Activity:moderate
12/22   What the deal with flyng a confederate flag?  I always assumed
        it was a symbol of racism, but some people seem to do it so
        casually that I'm not sure that's it anymore.
        \_ it's a southern heritage pride thing, which oftens involves
           the flag waver ignoring how pissed off a brown person might
           get about it.  whatever, i don't care, i'll never live anywhere
           where people are stupid enough to still wave the rebel flag
           \_ Well, yeah, but I live in the bay area and there's a house
              down the street with one next to the US flag.  WTF?
              \_ Maybe getting up in his face would help resolve the situation,
                 especially if you are a minority or foreign born.
        \_ flying US flag == ok.  flying rebel flag == not so ok.  understand?
        \_ it's just a dukes of hazard thing
        \_ It's not typically about racism. It's about pride of independence.
           I went to the Jefferson Davis home and there were Confedertate
           flags everywhere (as you might guess) and race doesn't play any
           part in it. It might have 100 years ago, but not now.
           \_ Really? Do you know any black people that fly a confederate
              flay? Why not?
              flag? Why not?
              \_ I bought mine at a store in alabama from a black storekeeper.
              \_ I personally don't know *anyone* who flies a Confederate
                 flag. However, like I said, I saw some flying at the home
                 of Jefferson Davis. Do you think that's a statement on
                 race? I don't.
                 \_ I've seen it flown everwhere, from alabama to black rock
                    city.  You see what you want to see with it.  YMMV
                 \_ The problem with showing Ink Blob psychology pictures
                    to a nation as diverse as America is that you're
                    almost guaranteed to offend someone.
                    \_ You're guaranteed to offend someone no matter what
                       you do or don't do. I think a lot of Yankees find
                       the Confederate flag offensive, but I'm not sure
                       it's because of any racial issue. The Civil War
                       wasn't really about race. I spent some time touring
                       antebellum plantations this holiday and was told
                       that almost nothing changed in terms of treatment
                       or conditions for the 'slaves' after the Civil War
                       ended except that they drew meager salaries which
                       basically provided for their subsistence. Some of the
                       'slave's quarters' were used by sharecroppers up until
                       the 1970's. Southerners were very classist, certainly.
                       Maybe still are. However, the Confederate flag is not
                       some blatant symbol of racism like, say, the Swastika
                       is. If it makes people uncomfortable it's because it
                       reopens wounds that still haven't completely healed (on
                       both sides). Yankees like to play the race card more
                       than Southerners do when it comes to the Civil War and
                       the Confederacy which is, I think, how Lincoln and his
                       cabinet crafted things to be. (History is written
                       by the winners...) I've spent a lot of time in The
                       South and Yankees are guilty of perpetuating a lot of
                       ugly Southern stereotypes. It's just that in places like
                       SF there's no one to call them on it and so it becomes
                       fact to people who obtain all of their knowledge of
                       The South from "The Dukes of Hazzard".
                       \_ It's on TV, it's true. Moral of the story:
                          if you start a war, you better make sure you
                          win the war. WW2 turned a bunch of elitist
                          Japanese into Western material worshipping,
                          bukake loving wimps.
                       \_ The Civil War was certainly about slavery, even if
                          it wasn't about "race." Are you really this mis-
                          informed about American history, or are you just
                          trolling? Of course the Confederate flag is a symbol
                          of racism, perhaps not when flying over a monument,
                          but pretty much every racist group, including the
                          Klan and skinhead groups, uses it as one of their
                          symbols. You have a very simplistic view of The
                          Reconstruction and aftermath as well, btw. The
                          former slaves did not simply all turn into
                          sharecroppers. I agree with what you say about many
                          Californians idiotically assuming that everyone with
                          a Southern accent must be stupid and uneducated. I
                          was stationed in North Carolina for three years and
                          people there are no dumber than anywhere else. If
                          anything, race relations are probably a bit better
                          in The South than in The Bay Area today.
                          \_ The Civil War was not really about slavery.
                             Lincoln didn't free the slaves until it was
                             underway and not even in all states. That's not to
                             say that slavery wasn't a contributing factor
                             to the conflict. However, as you say, slavery
                             isn't race. Lincoln himself believed in white
                             supremacy.  Many (most?) Yankees opposed to
                             slavery were still racist and slavery was hardly
                             a Southern North American phenomenon. Slavery
                             hasn't been allowed for 140 years, but racism is
                             still alive and well in this country. The
                             Confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism any more
                             than is the American flag which the Klan proudly
                             displays at its rallies. BTW, I didn't say all
                             slaves turned into sharecroppers. I mentioned that
                             because it was clear that the Yankees didn't give
                             a shit about what happened to the slaves they
                             freed and many of them had the same (or worse)
                             lives after the Civil War. That's not to say
                             slaves preferred bondage, but it calls into
                             question Yankee motives when there were people
                             essentially working as paid slaves to wealthy
                             landowners at least until the 1970s if not
                             beyond.
                             To be clear: I think the Confederate flag can
                             rightfully be construed as offensive, but not
                             because it represents racism. How would you
                             feel about someone flying the flag of the
                             USSR or North Korea?
                             \_ Your broad brush ignores the thousands of
                                "carpetbaggers" who risked everything to move
                                to The South to help blacks gain the rights to
                                vote and public education. Many of them ended
                                up killed for their efforts. Not to mention the
                                many northerners who stayed at home and
                                supported Republican causes. While it is true
                                that eventually most of the gains of the Civil
                                War were rolled back, it is a stretch to lay
                                this at the hands of "Yankees." It was mostly
                                Southern voters who created things like Black
                                Laws and Jim Crow. They had some support from
                                Northerners, to be sure, but not generally a
                                majority of them. In America today, wearing or
                                displaying the Confederate flag is generally
                                concered a statement supporting the ideals of
                                the Southern Rebellion, which inculded support
                                for slavery and the racism that implies. There
                                are exceptions of course, and everything
                                depends on circumstance (using one in a play
                                about the antebellum South, for example), but
                                a majority feels that way. You can argue until
                                you are blue in the face but it won't change
                                that fact.
                                \_ Do you have any evidence to support your
                                   fact that a majority of people associate the
                                   Confederate flag with racism? How much
                                   of a majority: 51% to 49%? What if 88%
                                   of people don't see a problem with it,
                                   but 12% do? Is that still okay? What if
                                   those 12% are also blacks? I'd like to see
                                   some statistics here.
                                   \_ Do you need to see statistics that
                                      flying the flag of the Third Reich
                                      has implications of anti-semitism?
                                      The Confederacy was a government that
                                      wanted to assert its right to make
                                      decisions separately from the federal
                                      government, and the major issue the
                                      rebel states wanted self-determination
                                      about was slavery.  It's disingenuous
                                      to say the Civil War wasn't about slavery
                                      just because the Emancipation
                                      Proclamation happened after it began;
                                      slavery was the #1 political issue
                                      of the time.  -tom
                                      \_ The Third Reich incinerated lots of
                                         Jews and made no apologies. On the
                                         other hand, the Confederates didn't
                                         do anything the Yankees didn't.
                                         It's not like the Union was
                                         exclusively comprised of states
                                         that did not own slaves or that
                                         Northerners were not racist. So,
                                         yes, I need to some some statistics.
                                         I saw some hand-waving on the
                                         Internets about most people (even
                                         most black people) *not* being
                                         offended by the Confederate flag.
                                         Cited was a Harris poll taken in
                                         1994, but Harris archives do not
                                         go back that far. Real data and
                                         not opinions taken as fact by Bay
                                         Area Yankees would be really useful.
                                         \_ People from California are generally
                                         \_ People from C[A] are generally
                                            not considered Yankees, or at least
                                            that is what I have been told by
                                            many Southerners. In any case,
                                            googling for "confederate flag
                                            gallup" gives you the results of
                                            a gallup poll in 1992 and 2000 on
                                            this topic. In 1992, 27% thought
                                            that displaying the Confederate
                                            Flag was primarily or partially
                                            racist, in 2000, the number was
                                            37%. They have not done a poll
                                            since then. A majority of blacks in
                                            Alabama voted to remove the "stars
                                            and bars" from the state flag, while
                                            a majority of whites voted the
                                            opposite. Gallup poll responders
                                            were split on the issue in 2000.
                                            and bars" from the state flag,
                                            while a majority of whites voted
                                            the opposite. Gallup poll
                                            responders were split on the issue
                                            in 2000.
                                            \_ California was fighting on
                                               the side of the Union,
                                               so...  Less than 40% of people
                                               consider it "partially racist".
                                               Therefore, most people do
                                               not consider it so.

                                               \_ Yes, I can do the math and I
                                                  see that my claim is not
                                                  supported by polls from 2000.
                                                  I would like more recent
                                                  numbers if possible, but in
                                                  any case, you can see why it
                                                  is a contentious issue.
        \_ This is not a symbol of racism:
           http://tinyurl.com/983av3
           \_ I've noticed that hate websites really look like shit.
              This one isn't the worst I've seen, but is somewhat shitty.
2008/12/4-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52162 Activity:kinda low
12/4    Regarding the Somalian pirates, how about sailing some decoy
        ships back and forth around there, clandestinely armed, and
        give the pirates a very nasty shock?
        \- this is not a hard problem to solve. there just inst much
           interest in solving it on the part of the us govt. i.e.
           it's a issue of priority, not technique.
        \_ Does a decoy ship work?  How do you make your decoy ship more
           attractive than the hundreds of ships out there?  I don't think
           pirates choose the ships the same way pick-pocketers choose their
           victims by picking a seemingly vunerable one out of random
           victims by picking a seemingly vulnerable one out of random
           passers-by.
           \_ You put out a big sign that says "I'm just a poor undefended
              freighter loaded with gold.  And poor me without any crew to
              guard me.  Please don't hijack me."
              \_ Just say "Parlay"
        \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
        \_ The obvious thing to do is to take over the Somalia government
           for a regime change, put in a puppet ruler of your choice
           or better yet, hold elections so it looks like it's their
           own fault for picking a leader nobody likes. Then you write
           constitutions in the new government, and MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
           \_ You mean like what Clinton tried to do with Aidid?
              \_ Yeah, something like that, except O will have to stick
                 around long enough to make sure it is done right.
           \_ how about "encouraging" a friendly neigbor, say, Ethiopia,
              to invade and install a suitable government...
              \_ Which country would want to invade a devestated messy country
                 and set a foot into the mud?  "There is no other country like
                 America!"
                 \_ The UN, with US leadership, would do it. This is a great
                    opportunity for Obama to start to rebuild the shattered
                    International community, that Bush so badly damaged.
        \_ Although I still think the international community should do
           something about this problem, once I read up on WHY the Somalis
           resort to piracy things made more sense.  Many of these Somalis
           were fisherman, but the factory trawlers that scraped their fishing
           areas clean of fish have destroyed that livelihood -- first they
           tried attacking the trawlers but the trawlers fought back -- now
           they just make their money from piracy.
           \_ And they fight back against evil fish sailors aboard the Flying
              Dutchman, yarrr..
2008/12/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52131 Activity:nil
12/*    oh boy
        http://www.zombietime.com/operation_first_casualty
        \_ It's so wonderful how after the elecetion idiots like zombietime
           went from annoying to pathetic overnight.  Have a wonderful 8
           years!
           \_ Why do you call it pathetic?
              \_ It is axiomatic that Zombietime is pathetic. !pp
                 \_ That was the best you could come up with?  That's pathetic
                    \_ You are all pathetic!
           \_ Looks like he is going for 16...
        \_ All Hail Emperor Douchebag
        \_ http://ivaw.org/membership
2008/11/25-12/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52099 Activity:nil
11/25   war nerd on pirates:
        http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-update-yo-ho-ho-and-a-tanker-of-crude
        \_ link from there:
           http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/nov/18/piracy-somalia-gallery?picture=339805476
        \_ How long until some shipping company hires a bunch of mercenaries
           to torch these guys?
           \_ It's probably difficult to raid them and at the same time prevent
              the pirates from torching the tanker ship with a gajillion
              barrells of oil.  The South Koreans and Taiwanese should quit
              stripping all the fish from Somalia.
              \_ Too late for that. Hm, how long does it take to burn that
                 much oil? Would it really make sense to scuttle the ship?
              \_ The traditional way to deal with pirates is to burn/conquer
                 their ports. "... to the shores of Tripoli..." Where do you
                 think that line came from? Prez O will surely have to do
                 something about Somalia.
2008/11/20-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52061 Activity:nil
11/20   U.S. asks Gulf states to provide $300B in aid to assist automakers,
        banks, etc.  Also asks Kuwait to forgive $16B in loans to Iraq.
        http://tinyurl.com/5g9d7p (AFP)
        \_ Up next: Polite request that BIGOIL kick in some of those
           lovely windfall profits. But don't call it socialism.
        \_ btw, this sounds like complete and utter tinfoil to me, except the
           part about forgiving the Iraq loan -op
           \_ I wouldn't be surprised if we did actually.
2008/11/19-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52045 Activity:nil
11/18   why are we completely fucking retarded in Iraq?
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/68dlo3
        \_ This is how we get people killed.
        \_ We are completely fucking retarded all over.  It just doesn't
           usually get people killed so directly.
        \_ this is consistant.  We simply don't *CARE* about Iraqi's lives.
           If they get murdered and all, it's ok, cuz we are pretty much done
           and we want to get out there soon.
2008/11/14-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51971 Activity:nil 75%like:51954
11/12   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm
        lulz, Pirates have spokesmen now?
        \_ we should Bailout the pirates
2008/11/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51954 Activity:nil 75%like:51971
11/12   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm
        lol, Pirates have spokesmen now?
        \_ everyone has spokesmen.
        \_ http://marketplace.publicradio.org/segments/working/pirate.html
           paints a different picture of piracy.
2008/11/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51838 Activity:nil
11/4    Gee.  I have always hoped that the first black POTUS would be Powell.
        Now this 47-yr-old dude stole the opportunity created by Dubya.  In a
        way Dubya is like Gobachev -- they both instrumented their parties'
        demise.
        \_ Powell fucked us all by backing Dubya in saying there were WMDs in
           Iraq.
           \_ Powell supported the war with faulty intelligence that he
              knew wasn't slam dunk, and when he realized they're faulty
              intelligence... he became very quiet.
2008/10/14-17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51522 Activity:nil
10/14   New Army Manual Showcases Softer Side - Yahoo! News:
        http://www.csua.org/u/mn6
        'The Army ultimately decided that such an aim (spreading democracy) is
        unrealistic. "We have to step back and say, you know, it's not about
        democracy, it's about effective governance and a stronger economy and
        well-being for the people," Leonard says. "If they develop democracy,
        that's great, but they have to have a government that suits their
        culture. And of course we had that debate."'
        \_ please forward the link to Mr. Bush please.
2008/9/25-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51297 Activity:low
9/25    have you called/e-mailed your congresscritter today?
        remember:  barney frank is a slimebucket
        \_ And George Bush is a War Hero: Mission Accomplished! Do you still
           call them Freedom Fries, I am kind of curious.
        \_ And George Bush is a War Hero, so of course none of this is
           his fault.
2008/9/9-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51121 Activity:nil
9/9     Biden is for forced segregation.
        http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122092005533912759.html
        \_ He makes Obama drink from a seperate fountain?
        \_ "Mr. Senor is an adjunct senior fellow at the Council
            on Foreign Relations and a founder of Rosemont Capital.
            He served as a senior adviser to the Coalition in Iraq
            and was based in Baghdad in 2003 and 2004."
           Wait, one of the guys who thought we'd be greeted as
           liberators criticizes Biden? Stop the presses!
        \_ BRAWNDO!  ITS GOT WHAT PLANTS NEED!
        \_ Did you ever find those WMD you were looking for?
2008/9/7-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51087 Activity:nil
9/6     Haven't heard Iraq news lately. Does that mean we're defeating
        Al Qaeda?
        \_ My theory, seriously, is that the Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq are
           busy bombing the shit out of each other in shops and mosques,
           and only occasionally harming US soldiers that happen to be in the
           way, so Iraq hasn't been in the news so much.
        \_ No, we are losing the war in Iraq and parts of Pakistan, a nuclear
           armed state, are already lost to them. We are fighting the
           wrong war.
2008/9/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51038 Activity:nil 72%like:51004 61%like:51034 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2008/9/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51034 Activity:nil 66%like:51004 61%like:51038 Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2008/9/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51016 Activity:nil
9/1     U.S. Military Returns Control of Anbar to Iraqis
        http://tinyurl.com/5fxntm
2008/8/29-9/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:51004 Activity:nil 66%like:51034 72%like:51038
8/29    Hooo boy, Palin on Iraq:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7niokOXyjs
        \_ hoo boy?
         \_ She sure as hell isn't good at the coherance thing.
2008/8/25-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Recreation/Activities] UID:50951 Activity:nil
8/25    Somalia's runners provide inspiration - Olympics - Yahoo! Sports:
        http://www.csua.org/u/m67
2008/8/21-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50929 Activity:nil
8/21    Well, now they've got a timetable.  I guess the "facts on the ground"
        finally worked out.
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-08-21-rice-meeting_N.htm?csp=34 (shorten this please)
        \_ I really hope Miss I Have a freakin' PHD In Russian Studies Rice
           did not tell Georgia a few weeks ago that the US would stand
           behind Georgia if they were stupid enough to taunt Russia into
           attacking them.
        \_ I really hope alien freakin' UFOs having been mutilating my cattle.
        \_ الله أَكْ!
        \_ Hey, did they ever find those Weapons of Mass Destruction they
           kept going on and on about?
2008/8/18-19 [Finance/Banking, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50899 Activity:nil
8/18    It's the War Economy, Stupid:
        http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A824439
2008/8/13-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:50862 Activity:nil
8/13    What do you know, Al Qaeda is freaking nuts
        http://tinyurl.com/65te2e [telegraph]
2008/8/11-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:50849 Activity:nil
8/11    Timeline:  Condi visited Georgia one month before its invasion of
        S. Ossetia.  Russia also gave warning of potential of large scale
        military conflict four days before invasion.
        http://tinyurl.com/5s4u2y (abc.net.au)
2008/8/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50835 Activity:nil 71%like:50789
8/10    Back on 8/5:
        "Pulitzer prize winning journalist breaks the lid on the illegal
        techniques the White House used to deceive the nation into supporting
        the Iraq War"
        I wonder why this post didn't follow up on 8/6 with, "book's sources
        deny": http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26050915
        \_ So your point is that the White House and CIA are denying the
           allegations?  I already knew that.
           \_ The sources named in the book are denying it.
        \_ I didn't see it. This is why I read the motd. -oop
2008/8/5-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50789 Activity:nil 71%like:50835
8/5     Pulitzer prize winning journalist breaks the lid on the illegal
        techniques the White House used to decieve the nation into supporting
        the Iraq War:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308
        \_ Obviously he is making this all up.  You anti-semite!
        \_ No evidence.  Let's start an impeachment based on some guy's book!
           \_ Oh, you have already read it? Where did you get the advance
              copy? I thought it wasn't in the bookstores until tomorrow.
              \_ I don't need to read it to know that. Someone else will
                 waste their time, read it, and summarize (like this
                 article you posted).
                 I'll read a 415 page work of art. Not a political
                 article/masturbation session blown up to 415 pages.
                 \_ I'm sure that someone will summarize and say that the
                    claims have veracity and Bush is a criminal.  Someone
                    else will summarize and say that the author is full of
                    it.  I'm going to go way out on a limb and predict
                    that you'll believe the second guy.  -tom
                    \_ The book itself is obviously not evidence. If there
                       is veracity, we can go to the actual source of the
                       veracity. This book is irrelevant.
                 \_ You don't need to read it to know that there is no
                    evidence in it? How do you know that?
                    \_ If he has real evidence, publish it in a paper, not a
                       book for profit.
2008/8/4-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50769 Activity:nil
8/3     Anthrax letters turn out to be from (now deceased) top U.S Army
        anthrax researcher Bruce Ivins.  Funny, why isn't this bigger news?
        http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/index.html
        http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/03/journalism
        \_ was on front page of NYTIMES last few days.  I don't watch
           tv
           \_ Agreed. It's been pretty big news. OP lives under a rock.
2008/7/30-8/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50735 Activity:nil
7/30    To destroy Al Qaeda, we must end the war on terror: Rand Corporation
        http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/29/to-destroy-al-qaeda.html
        not really news except to dittoheads but maybe this is progress
        \_ Wow, you're right!  That sure prevented 9/11!
           \_ Please to be pointing out how the current war on terror has
              actually done anything to prevent anyone flying passenger planes
              into buildings. Thicker cockpit doors don't count.
              \_ I already demonstrated how *no* war on terror didn't destroy
                 Al Qaeda.
                 \_ ...splodey brain.
                 \_ It is really a war for hearts and minds, which we have
                    finally started to figure out in Iraq. Bullets are not
                    really that useful in this war, except maybe as the
                    stick that goes with the carrot.
2008/7/28-8/3 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50709 Activity:nil
7/28    Wired on War Games:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/6xw36r [wired]
2008/7/26-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50698 Activity:nil
7/26    http://tinyurl.com/5r456r [AP]
        Analysis: US now winning Iraq war that seemed lost
        \_ So move the goalposts enough and eventually you can claim
           victory and bug the fuck out.  That's not winning.
           What exactly was won again?
           \_ Huh?  What goalposts are you talking about?
              \_ First goalpost: We're going to remove Saddam Hussein and
                 set up a model democracy in the Middle East (no offense,
                 Turkey); we'll pay for the whole thing with Iraqi oil,
                 we won't lose any troops after we defeat Saddam, and we'll
                 be out of there in no time. Current goalpost: We're leaving
                 on our own and not getting carried/kicked out.
        \_ Things are looking up, I will grant you that. Was all that really
           worth $3T? And what will happen when we leave?
2008/7/23-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50668 Activity:nil
7/23    McCain, always has been a critic of the Iraq War, always has been
        a critic of Bush's failures in the war.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ieHwOm4ljA
2008/7/21-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50645 Activity:nil
7/21    So, is it a civil war?
        \_ Is what a civil war?
2008/7/16-23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50588 Activity:moderate
7/15    Provisions to tighten regulation over Fannie and Freddy. Whatever
        happened to GWB and Reagan's FREE MARKET economy and the
        new OWNERSHIP SOCIETY???
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25686589/page/2
        \_ The macs are gov't partnerships with business--what has that to do
           with free market?
           \_ Plenty!  Previous sarcastic poster, the free market/ownership
              society doesn't work very well if we are in a global
              depression.  I think everyone recognizes this.
              \_ "Everyone?" Really, even the motd.libertarians? If so,
                 this would be a mighty sea change. Is this true, libertarians?
                 \_ official libertarian nutjob position: the free market would
                    work perfectly in a global depression, if only the
                    government would stop meddling.  -tom
                    \_ No, I think a global depression is a natural
                       phenomenon and a healthy thing. Why would you want to
                       stop it?
                       \_ You obviously haven't studied the 1930s where
                          people were starving on the streets while the
                          capitalists lived off of nice steaks everyday.
                          I wish you'd get laid off by JPL one day. Your
                          f***ing IT job is worthless at JPL, FYI.
                          fucking IT job is worthless at JPL, FYI.
                          \_ And how the government's random lumbering economic
                             policies made that very depression longer?
                          \_ I think monetary policy is a good thing for social
                             reasons but can result in a suboptimal economic
                             result. BTW, you have no idea what I do at JPL.
                             Hint: I don't work under the CIO.
                             I'm glad I've upset you, though. I always
                             wanted my own following bitch. --dim
                          \_ And you haven't studied the Soviet Union. This
                             kind of comparison is pointless and stupid.
                       \_ and of course it's healthy because it proves the
                          strength of the free market!  -tom
                          \_ One nice thing about the free market is that
                             it will course correct itself. Certainly it
                             is preferred to a planned economy. The free
                             market would have never given us Iraq. It
                             took an inept government you trust completely
                             to do that kind of economic damage.
                             \_ "that's not starvation and famine, it's the
                                free market course correcting itself!"  -tom
                                \_ Imagine if every dollar spent in Iraq
                                   had been spent by the free market
                                   rather than Big Government.
                                   \_ Iraq was and is a major clusterfuck,
                                      but that's irrelevant to the question
                                      of whether global depression is
                                      "healthy."  Stop trying to change the
                                      subject.  -tom
                                      \_ Actually, it's not irrelevant.
                                         Do you trust the free market to
                                         allocate resources or do you
                                         trust Big Government to do so?
                                         In the former case you sometimes
                                         have market corrections. In the
                                         latter case you have Iraq. Which
                                         one results in a healthier economy
                                         long-term? Which one is morally
                                         superior?
                                         \_ I believe in a mixed economy, as
                                            do all non-whackjobs. Some things
                                            are better allocated centrally
                                            and some by a market system.
                                            Morality is a pretty personal
                                            thing, but I believe in a mixed
                                            economy morally as well, since
                                            both extremes cause huge amounts
                                            of human sufferring, when tried.
                                         \_ Your dichotomy is false.  War is
                                            not a function of "Big Government";
                                            it's largely a function of
                                            resources.  Let's say that
                                            current trends continue, and oil
                                            and food prices continue to go
                                            through the roof.  Poorer countries
                                            like those in Latin America will
                                            be more heavily impacted than
                                            the U.S.  The real free market
                                            solution to the problem would
                                            be for the Latinos to move to
                                            the wealthy U.S.  The libertarian
                                            nutjob solution is to build a
                                            bigger wall, because "a primary
                                            function of government is to
                                            protect property rights."
                                            Obviously the situation is
                                            untenable; the "free" market
                                            will cause a war due to resource
                                            scarcity.  Rwanda, Somalia are
                                            not the result of Big Government.
                                             -tom
                                            \_ Actually, I would say their
                                               governments are most to blame.
                                               \_ of course you would.  -tom
                                                  \_ So you blame the
                                                     citizenry? Way to go!
                                                     \_ you really enjoy
                                                        putting words in
                                                        other people's mouths,
                                                        but you're not very
                                                        good at it.  -tom
                                                        \_ Look, Tom. What
                                                           other option is
                                                           there? Either
                                                           it's the fault
                                                           of the gov't or
                                                           the citizenry.
                                                           Care to name
                                                           your mysterious
                                                           3rd party?  Zuul?
                                                        \_ Maybe you should put
                                                           more words into your
                                                           own mouth instead
                                                           of being so evasive.
                                                           If not the gov't or
                                                           the citizens then
                                                           who? Zuul?
                                I think it is primarily _/
                                the afteraffects of
                                colonialism, which for
                                this discussion was
                                perpetrated by both
                                government and market
                                actors. -!tom
                                \_ I would have to say colonialism is almost
                                   exclusively perpetuated by governments.
                                   Even the East India Company was basically a
                                   front for government interests. However,
                                         \- this is mostly not a meaningful
                                            statement but is mostly wrong
                                            before the East India Act.
                                            \_ Well it is 100% correct
                                               after the Act and "mostly
                                               wrong" means "partly
                                               right". I think it's
                                               debatable. Certainly EIC
                                               wasn't your basic corporation.
                                               \- "ObLandWarAsia"
                                            I think what you want to look
                                            into is "mercantilism".
                                            somewhat interesting note in re:
                                            your somewhat humorous first
                                            sentence: at one point coca cola
                                            was more or less going to buy
                                            the country formerly known as
                                            British Honduras [slight exag-
                                            geration ... it was pretty much
                                            going to be privatized].
                                            In re: below ... you may want to
                                            read about how belgian colonialism
                                            int the congo changed when it went
                                            from being a personal possession
                                            of the king to a state colony.
                                   I think there's more blame to direct at the
                                   current corrupt and petty governments.
                                   I think Africa, as a whole, would
                                   benefit more from being run by corporate
                                   interests than corrupt governments. In
                                   fact, corporate investment in Africa is
                                   probably the the easiest path to salvation
                                   probably the easiest path to salvation
                                   just like it is in Afghanistan, Iraq,
                                   and other troubled regions. To really
                                   mess things up you need to get
                                   governments involved.
                                   governments involved. Governments are
                                   irrational.
                                   \_ I love this line of argument:
                                      1) Assert that free markets produce
                                         optimal results.
                                      2) Conclude that anywhere sub-optimal
                                         conditions exist, it is the fault
                                         of the government, by point 1.  QED.
                                      Soon followed by:
                                      3) To explain the existence of the
                                         sub-optimal condition, reverse-
                                         engineer an untestable hypothesis,
                                         usually based on government's
                                         response to the sub-optimal
                                         condition (i.e., "we wouldn't have
                                         gun crime if it weren't for gun
                                         control" or "the banking crisis is
                                         caused by FDIC insurance encouraging
                                         banks to take more risks.")
                                           -tom
                                         \_ I notice you still haven't
                                            defined your position. Why am I
                                            not surprised.
                                            \_ What position?  I certainly
                                               feel that someone who uses
                                               a machete to kill a person
                                               whose family he knows, must
                                               be significantly culpable for
                                               that act.  -tom
                                 \_ Governments are irrational? Only somone who
                                    has never worked in the private sector could
                                    say such a thing. Do you think businesses
                                    are rational?
                                    has never worked in the private sector
                                    could say such a thing. Do you think
                                    businesses are rational?
                                    \_ Ones that manage to compete are, yes.
                                       \_ Do you think that the military
                                          is irrational and poorly run?
                                          \_ It's one of the best examples
                                             of an irrational and poorly run
                                             government entity.
2008/7/15-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50577 Activity:nil
7/15    Obama:  we've always been at war with Eastasia
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/59otvg
        \_ What the fuck are you talking about?
        \_ What the f*** are you talking about?
           \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#The_War
              \_ I know what you were referencing.  That doesn't change
                 the fact that we can't figure out what the fuck you
                 the fact that I can't figure out what the fuck you
                 the fact that I can't figure out what the f*** you
                 mean.
2008/7/14-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:50570 Activity:nil
7/14    Source of the torture techniques used at Gitmo revealed to be...
        Chinese Torture Tactics from the Korean War:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html
2008/7/14-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50563 Activity:nil
7/14    Obama's plan to end the war in 16 months:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/556cz4 (NYT)
        \_ Oops, sorry Obama, that's not what Maliki actually said
           http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7504571.stm
           \_ Oops, sorry President Maliki, your own office used the word
              "withdrawal" in its transcription of your speech and then
              published it as such.
        \_ Hear, hear.
2008/7/8-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50501 Activity:nil
7/8     I want a REAL war sim
        http://www.cracked.com/article_15660_ultimate-war-simulation-game.html
2008/7/3-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:50461 Activity:nil
7/3     Amazing rescure of 15 hostages in Colombia
        http://csua.org/u/lut (Washington Post)
        Best part: FARC was fooled by Che shirts.  WTF?
2008/6/30-7/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Military] UID:50425 Activity:nil
6/30    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh
        Bush Administration aiming the US toward war with Iran.  McCain
        would go along.  Voting for McCain might get us into a war
        with Iran.
2008/6/27-7/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50394 Activity:nil
6/27    Former Gitmo detainee turns into truck bomber
        http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/06/released_guantanamo.php
        \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdallah_Saleh_Ali_Al_Ajmi
           Way to go, Bush Administration. You couldn't do this properly, so
           you ended up handing him back to the Kuwaitis, and then they
           released him because you used illegit methods at Gitmo.
           \_ So the Bush admin made this guy into a truck bomber?
              \_ Of course not. The guy was already a truck bomber. The Bush
                 admin screwed up his incarceration and neglected to gather
                 evidence so that he could be thrown into SuperMax for life.
                 Rather than face up to their mistakes, they turned him over
                 to our allies, the Kuwaitis, and public opinion in the
                 Middle East has gone against the US so badly that a Kuwaiti
                 jury acquitted the guy. Now do you see how badly the Bush
                 admin has screwed our country over? Cf. Willy Horton
2008/6/23-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50343 Activity:nil
6/23    The Iraqi security forces really had nothing better to do than spending
        all that time to set up this photo op:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/5db4nk (Yahoo! News Photos)
        \_ Unless they're cataloging all those weapons.  And of course, public
           relations has *nothing* to do with police/army work.
2008/6/17-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50282 Activity:kinda low
6/17    May was the least deadly month for US troops in Iraq since the war
        began.
        \_ Meanwhile, we are losing the war in Afghanistan, where Osama
           really is.
           \_ Shhhhhhhh!
           \_ No, the violence continues there, but the casualties in Iraq have
              dropped so low that the numbers in A. are worse at the moment.
              \_ Not helped by resurgence of Taliban in Afghanistan and clear
                 support from Pakistani Intel. Also: more reason for us to
                 pull out of Iraq and go back to fighting an enemy we can
                 find: the Taliban.
        \_ Right on! So we can now pull out our troops with a clear
           conscience.
2008/6/14-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50259 Activity:low
6/14    Don't look now, but it looks like Iraq actually is turning a corner:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/659h5a (The Economist)
        \_ Your tinyurl is broken
   http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11540858
        \_ Insert troll here.
        \_ 10,000 US casualties, 100,000 Iraqi civilian death, hundreds of
           billions later, totally worth it.  Let's do Iran next.
           \_ 10k casualties?  If you mean casualty = dead, then no, that's
              about 4k.  If you mean casualty = injured, the number is way
              higher.  If you're going to spew you should get it right.
              \_ Two questions: what's the cost of paying for our maimed
                 soldiers for the next 5 decades, and are they getting
                 adaquate care?
                 \_ Answer: a lot and no probably not.  Which has nothing to
                    do with what I said which is, "get your numbers right if
                    you've going to post numbers".
              \_ Yeah, the numbers are more like 40k, 400k and $2T, right?
                 \_ Depends on the definition of casualty, as I said.  You
                    can't count numbers of things if you don't know what it
                    is you're counting.  I learned this in 1st grade.
2008/6/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50209 Activity:nil
                                no ideology but to hold power because he
                                doesn't like that in our parties?  You're
                                making even less sense than usual. -jrleek
                          \_ Which one do you think is the "extreme left
                             marxist"? Can you please sign your future posts
                             "WN" for wingnut, so I can filter them? Thks.
                   \_ I actually thought this comment was too stupid to be
                      worth replying to, but after reading the above, I have
                      changed my mind. The reason "so many" as you put it,
                      pro-war candidates won is because the war was still
                      popular in certain sections of the country. I imagine it
                      still is, in a few places. There are 435 different
                      Congressional elections. At least one of them must still
                      be pro-Bush.
           \_ Hopefully the American people are smart enough to understand
              that voting based on a single point is pretty dumb.  "I ended
              the war but turned the country into a debt ridden socialist mess
              the likes of which Jimmy Carter can only dream of!"  The war
              will end soon enough no matter who is in office.  I vote based
              on the long term health of the country which has little to do
              with Iraq and everything to do with long term economic policy
              and security as always.
              \_ gee, I wonder if there is some huge discretionary
                 expense that we could cut out of the budget...I'm
                 wracking my brain to think if there might be anything
                 we're spending a shitload of money on for no good
                 purpose...  -tom
2008/6/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50185 Activity:nil
6/8     US News reprints McCain's first person POW account from '73.
        http://csua.org/u/lq4
2008/6/6-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50178 Activity:low
6/6     Suprise! John Bolton doesn't think much of Obama!
        http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-bolton5-2008jun05,0,5282011.story
        \_ Oh, John Bolton, is there any situation you can't stick your foot
           in your mouth over?
           \_ Evil John Bolton puts US before UN!  Rat Bastard!
              \_ Bolton's a bundle of neuroses and anger management issues
                 looking for an outlet; you don't hire a man like that for
                 his patriotism, you hire him so you can aim him at people
                 you don't like, then watch him spew.
                 \_ Can we give him a CSUA account?
                    \_ Now you're catching on. Look for him on the freep
                       boards, too.
2008/6/6-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:50176 Activity:kinda low
6/6     "I am looking forward to a debate with John McCain. John McCain is a
        good man. He's an American hero. We honor his service to this nation.
        But he has made some bad choices about the company he keeps." -Barack
        Obama
        \_ "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" -- BUSHJR
        \_ No way Obama really said that.  That is so pot-kettle-black.
           \_ Yes he did. See for yourself:
              http://youtube.com/watch?v=o6XyE_J-Xyo
              at 1:25 in the video
              \_ Wow, amazing given Obama's list of friends.
        \_ It will be good to have this election to see if the American people
           really want to continue the War in Iraq or finally end it. That is
           what democracy is all about.
           \_ You mean like in 2004 and 2006?
              \_ Sure. In 2004 the public voted to keep the project going.
                 In 2006 they voted the other way, but the legistlature does
                 not have enough power to act unilaterally. Our framers set
                 things up like that on purpose.
                 \_ If they voted the other way, why did so many pro-war
                    candidates win?  Why did Lieberman win?  The 2006 election
                    as mandate to leave Iraq is one of the biggest media lies
                    in the last quarter century.
                    \_ so what's your explanation?  The complete bankruptcy of
                       Republican ideology and policies?  -tom
                       \_ Explanation for what?  And yes, for once you're
                          finally right (a broken clock strikes twice) but not
                          for the reasons you feel.  The Republican party no
                          longer has an ideology.  They now have the same long
                          term goals as the Dems:  acquire and retain power.
                          For a few years there they actually believed in
                          something, but no longer, sadly leaving those who
                          care about the long term health of this country with
                          no one to vote for.  Oh but wait I can vote for the
                          extreme left marxist or the somewhat left socialist.
                          Fortunately, we term out the POTUS, so the amount of
                          damage either can inflict is repairable.
                          \_ Maybe you'd be better off in Myanmar.  -tom
                             \_ He should go to a place where the govt. has
                                no ideology but to hold power because he
                                doesn't like that in our parties?  You're
                                making even less sense than usual. -jrleek
                          \_ Which one do you think is the "extreme left
                             marxist"? Can you please sign your future posts
                             "WN" for wingnut, so I can filter them? Thks.
                   \_ I actually thought this comment was too stupid to be
                      worth replying to, but after reading the above, I have
                      changed my mind. The reason "so many" as you put it,
                      pro-war candidates won is because the war was still
                      popular in certain sections of the country. I imagine it
                      still is, in a few places. There are 435 different
                      Congressional elections. At least one of them must still
                      be pro-Bush.
           \_ Hopefully the American people are smart enough to understand
              that voting based on a single point is pretty dumb.  "I ended
              the war but turned the country into a debt ridden socialist mess
              the likes of which Jimmy Carter can only dream of!"  The war
              will end soon enough no matter who is in office.  I vote based
              on the long term health of the country which has little to do
              with Iraq and everything to do with long term economic policy
              and security as always.
              \_ gee, I wonder if there is some huge discretionary
                 expense that we could cut out of the budget...I'm
                 wracking my brain to think if there might be anything
                 we're spending a shitload of money on for no good
                 purpose...  -tom
2008/6/4-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50154 Activity:moderate
6/4     Zimbabwe opposition leader has been detained by police
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7435869.stm
        Goodbye, Tsvangirai; we have failed you
        \_ This is sad.  I'm curious though, who is 'we'?  I'm not sure there's
           much the West could have done about Mugabe, we don't have much
           leverage left.
           \_ We should have negotiated.  Used diplomacy.  Talked with him.
        \_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_22
           Diplomats attacked.
           \_ This amounts to an act of war. Arrest Mugabe.
              \_ Yeah, cause getting into yet another war is really what the
                 US needs right now.
                 \_ Feh. Arresting Mugabe would be somewhere between Grenada
                    and Panama. And we can probably count on his neighbors to
                    help out. Hell, just bus back all the Zimbabweans who are
                    in SA right now and hand them guns.
                    \_ And we could do it, if we weren't already over
                       comitted in Iraq and Afghanistan. Reason #479 why
                       invading Iraq was a dumb idea.
                       \_ Amen, brother.
                       \_ Invading Iraq was a dumb idea, but why the hell
                          should the US invade Zimbabwe?  Maybe a UN force
                          with a strong US contigent ala Serbia I could get
                          behind (but I'd still be skeptical) but a US
                          lead invasion?  Seriously?
                          \_ A UN force would be fine by me. -op
2008/6/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50128 Activity:kinda low
6/2     See, it's not hard.  I'm not a McCain supporter, but he's the most
        likely vote for me. I'll enumerate his plusses and minuses without
        referencing any other candidate:
        + Supports of the 2nd amendment
        + Supports the completion of the Iraq war
        + Likes originalist judges
        - Amnesty
        - enemy of the 1st amendment (McCain-Feingold)
        - Has succumbed to the Global Warming hoax (added after 1st post
          -emarkp)
        Now let's have someone pro-Obama do the same. -emarkp
        \_ Please define 'completion' of Iraq war.
        \_ I have a couple:
           + Knows something about foreign policy
             \_ Where do you get this from?
             \_ I do not think 'supports Iraq war full heartedly and jokes
                about bombing Iran' == knows something about foreign policy
                \_ That's ok, you're too cowardly to even post your name next
                   to your political views, so I'm not all that interested
                   in what you think. -jrleek
                   \_ I'm amazed at how often people sign their ramblings
                      with my name, so I've given up signing most of my posts.
                   \_ Here is my password hash:
                      $gqxSEpB62znlWCH4vHW2a1
                      \_ Where is the password file?
                   \_ I'm not the pp, but I agree with his point, and I
                      _will_ sign my name. It's still not clear to me which
                      McCain is running: the one who stood against Bush in
                      2000, or the one who seems to have thrown that one
                      under the Straight Talk Express. --erikred
                      \_ This is a fair criticism.  I personally put actions
                         far above words.  McCain has a pretty well known
                         history.  -jrleek
                         \_ There was an excellent '03 OpEd written as McCain's
                            proposed State of the Union 2005 and based on his
                            historical support for progressive measures that
                            made me think that I might actually vote for him.
                            Sadly, his campaign this year has made me doubt
                            his commitment to the same ideas that would have
                            made him attractive to me. --erikred
           + Historically fiscally conservative (no on farm bill, no on pork)
           - gas tax proposal
           Is that one about foreign policy too close to referencing Obama?
           -jrleek
           \_ Ah, forgot the fiscal policy part.  The only drawback is that
              he's from this current pork-loving congress. -emarkp
           \_ What does fiscally conservative mean? That he voted for
              Bush's $2T+ increase in the debt? That is a strange use of
              the word "conservative."
        \_ I'm pretty interested in any policy an Obama supporter agrees with
           that Obama hasn't changed at least twice.
           \_ The iraq war was a mistake from day one.  He knew it.  He made
              it clear he knew it back when saying that meant it branded
              you commie or a traitor.  As to the rest, well, you are making
              baseless arguments so whatever dude.
              \_ Heck, I said that too.  Does that mean I should be prez?
                 \_ Well you've got the changing the goalposts thing down pat,
                    but then again the goal is someone NOT like Bush.
                 \_ You would probably do a better job than the current
                    occupant.
2008/6/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50125 Activity:nil
6/2     Don't look now, but the U.S.-backed government and army may be winning
        the war.   (Editorial)
        http://csua.org/u/loo  (Washington Post)
        \_ After the 5th or 6th version of that story in the last 4 years
           I don't think I have any more faith.
           \_ Uh-huh.  You've seen this huge drop in violence and an effective
              Iraqi government and military in the last 4 years?  When?
              \_ I've heard "X proves we have turned the corner and are
                 winning but the media doesn't want to tell that story."
                 \_ Is the Washington Post not media?
                  \_ Funny how that works
                     \_ Yeah, delusional people often are funny.  You seem to
                        be making up multiple things in this article for
                        example...
        \_ When are they going to get rid of that fool Krauthammer?
           \- he really should get the "red dragon wheelchair treatment".
              if you arrange to have him delivered to me, i will arrange
              to have him "vigourously interrogated".
2008/5/29-6/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50089 Activity:nil
5/19    Maliki's Midas Touch
        http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4938966&page=1
2008/5/29-6/1 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50084 Activity:nil
5/29    http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9609.html
        \_ Nice to see the Swiftboat Brigade knocked back into the festering
           swamp they belong in.
           http://www.89infdivww2.org
2008/5/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50064 Activity:nil
5/28    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2041908/John-Bolton-to-be-target-of-citizen%27s-arrest-at-Hay-Festival.html
        John Bolton to be target of citizen's arrest at Hay Festival.
2008/5/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:49956 Activity:nil
5/15    new War Nerd out
        http://exile.ru/print.php?ARTICLE_ID=19027&IBLOCK_ID=35
2008/5/6-9 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49891 Activity:nil
5/6     So much for the $1M-per-piece "mine-resistant" vehicle.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080505/wl_mcclatchy/2930304
        \_ Armor piercing shells from Iran can do that ya know.
           \_ AP from Syria works fine, too, and those AP shells smuggled
              out of Afghanistan are da BOMB.
              \_ Out of Afghanistan?  No.  They're going _into_ Afghanistan
                 from Iran.  How do you figure they're going from Afghanistan
                 into Iraq?  *boggle*  Here's the key parts of the article the
                 OP didn't read (from their own link):

                 The military has praised the vehicles for saving hundreds of
                 lives, saying they could withstand the IEDs, or improvised
                 explosive devices, which have been the biggest killers of
                 Americans in Iraq . The Pentagon has set aside $5.4 billion
                 to acquire 4,000 MRAPs at more than $1 million each, making
                 the MRAP the Defense Department's third largest acquisition
                 program, behind missile defense and the Joint Strike Fighter.

                 But last Wednesday's attack has shown that the MRAPs are
                 vulnerable to an especially potent form of IED known as an
                 EFP, for explosively formed penetrator, which fires a
                 superheated cone of metal through the vehicle's armor.

                 Military officials are still trying to determine whether last
                 week's attack is a sign of "new vulnerabilities (in the
                 vehicle) or new (weapons) capabilities" on the part of
                 insurgents, said Navy Capt. John Kirby , a spokesman for Adm.
                 Michael Mullen , chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

                 U.S. officials don't know if the EFP that pierced the MRAP
                 was larger, redesigned or a lucky shot from an old one. But
                 explosive experts in Iraq are investigating, said Col. Jerry
                 O'Hare , a military spokesman in Iraq .

                 So maybe the vehicle is flawed.  Maybe the Iranians have
                 developed a new weapon.  Maybe it was a lucky shot.  OP is
                 pretty flip about it and fortunately not in a position to
                 make decisions in the military.
                 \_ Yeah I read the whole article before posting.  I was just
                    disappointed that some $1M-per-piece hyped hardware
                    deployed only a year ago is already showing its
                    shortcomings at the theatre that it's designed to operate.
                    deployed merely a year ago is already showing its
                    shortcomings at the theatre that it's meant to operate.
                    -- OP
                    \_ Shaped metal projectiles penetrate tanks that cost much
                       more than $1M.  Our tanks now have explosive armor that
                       detonates projectiles like this.  The response is that
                       newer projectiles are two-stage shells--the first stage
                       takes the blast from the explosive armor, the second
                       stage penetrates.  Welcome to the arms race.
                       \_ Tank = $1 million
                          IED = $1 thousand
                          \_ You're confused.  The armor was never about
                             protecting the tank.  It is there to protect the
                             guys inside.  If they didn't put armor on anything
                             they could put more/bigger weapons/go faster on
                             the vehicles but the soldiers would die from
                             stray bullets.  With armor it takes special
                             weapons to kill them which are not readily
                             available.
                       \_ HEAT technology was invented in WWII.
           \_ Yeah, who could have possibly imagined that Iran might try to
              intervene into a US led occupation of Iraq?
              \_ Where's your 2001 post saying this?
                 \_ http://csua.com/2003/01/31/#27260 (Jan 2003)
2008/4/12-16 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49738 Activity:nil
4/12    Is it true that the American taxpayer is paying for universal health
        care for Iraqis?
        \_ This guy says so:
           http://www.csua.org/u/la5
2008/4/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:49712 Activity:nil
4/10    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24034202
        General lengthens Iraq tour so that Bush can shorten it and
        get credit. JOB WELL DONE BUSHIE!
2008/4/9-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49706 Activity:nil
4/9     Permanent occupation of Iraq just like America's permanent occupation
        of American South
        http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/occupying-iraq-just-occupying-alabama
        \_ this site's commenting system looks cool. What are they using?
        \_ Cf. recent moronic comparisons between PRC occupation of Tibet
           and US occupation of Texas.
        \_ I'd like to meet the Southerner who thinks their state is being
           occupied.  That's a good laugh.
           \_ The South Will Rise Again
           \_ You would've met a lot more of them in the 1860s. They are
              all dead now. In the same way, if we wait 100 years Iraqis
              will probably eat at Chick-Fil-A and watch NASCAR.
              \_ They already believe pro-wrestling is real.
2008/4/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49689 Activity:nil 52%like:49632
4/8     Yes, the Iraqi army kicked Al-Sadr's ass
        http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/04/a_look_at_operation_1.php
        http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h0_feLSmJcspNYz9g3tqDkkwXD2QD8VSIPN00
        \_ Nope. You have been lied to (again).
           http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080421/cockburn
           \_ Sorry, can't read the article.  And nothing in the intro
              addresses it.  I'm sorry reality doesn't agree with your desires.
           \_ You may also want to read today's http://www.juancole.com
              \_ Who do *you* think is more credible, the guys who told
                 us that Saddam Hussein was in league with Al Qaeda, had WMD
                 and was soon to have a nuke or the ones who tried to warn us
                 that the Iraq War would be a disaster?
                 \_ Only DK and DU speak The Truth.  All others are evil and
                    must be eliminated.  Your link is not to DK or DU, thus
                    you must be a corporate news whore.  You must be eliminated
                    before your plague of unTruth spreads.  Please report to
                    the food vats for extended happiness enforcement training
                    immediately.
                    \_ Yeah, I'd be bitter too, if I was you.
                    \_ Yeah, I'd be bitter too, if I were you.
                       http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm
                       \_ Bitter?  Au contraire, mon frere!  I'm quite amused!
                          All the more so that you'd post some silly nonsense
                          like that as if it meant anything.
                          \_ You sure sound bitter.
2008/4/2-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49649 Activity:nil
4/2     "Military feels fuel-cost gouge in Iraq" - Yahoo! News:
        http://www.csua.org/u/l6j
        "In World War II, the average fuel consumption per soldier or Marine
        was about 1.67 gallons a day; in Iraq, it's 27.3 gallons,"
        \_ So?
           \_ They should get hybrid Humvees.
              http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-02-13-humvee_x.htm
2008/4/2-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49643 Activity:kinda low
4/2     Yes, Iraqis kicked Al Sadr's butt in Basra
        http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/whittling_away_at_sadr.html
        \_ Now there's a dependable source.  Obviously I'm just some MSM
           reading, what's the word -- oh yeah, sheeple.
           \_ What's wrong with http://realclearpolitics.com?  They mostly re-post
              stories from MSM from all across the political spectrum.  Have
              you ever even read the site?
              \_ Have you looked at the Creator's Syndicate site?  I have no
                 idea what realclearpolitics is, but considering the link bar
                 has "Meet a Left Wing Housing Thug" I'm going to go with
                 not a reasonable source.
        \_ Does this mean that the Mission is Accomplished and we can finally
           bring our boys home? Good news, indeed.
           \_ If the entire war was about Al Sadr and Basra and Al Sadr was
              defeated and order restored, yes.  But it isn't about any of
              those things.  Is that considered a clever remark in your
              circles?
              \_ So what is the war about anyway? I thought it was about
                 some WMD and overthrowing Saddam Hussein. When are we
                 going to be able to declare victory and go home? 100 years?
                 If the war isn't about any of these things, why did you
                 even bother to tell us about it?
2008/4/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49635 Activity:nil
4/1     Funny Onion News:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CqpEacxdS0 Bring daughter to work
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmvw7N-Nn1U Soldier aptitude
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aotlEpmAFVQ Gays in combat
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvz_xzaMvCQ Eco-friendly War
2008/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49608 Activity:nil
3/28    The good thing about Obama is that he can use the race card
        to get us out of trouble, like war, recession, immigration, etc.
2008/3/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49589 Activity:nil
3/27    What are they fighting about in Basra?
        'The fighting in Basra, which has spread to parts of Baghdad, is not a
        clash between good and evil or between a legitimate government and an
        outlaw insurgency. Rather, as Anthony Cordesman, military analyst for
        the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies,
        writes, it is "a power struggle" between rival "Shiite party mafias"
        for control of the oil-rich south and other Shiite sections of the
        country.'
        http://www.slate.com/id/2187564
2008/3/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49580 Activity:nil
3/26    Zombie Time on the Iraq War Fifth Anniversary Protest
        http://www.zombietime.com/iraq_war_fifth_anniversary_protest
        I like the 'Irreconcilable Indifference' page.
        \_ I'm a self-described liberal, but even I found the 5th Anniv.
           protest pretty laughable. For zombietime, this is just shooting
           fish in a barrel. Aim higher.
           \_ I think shooting in a barrel is ZT's point.  He doesn't have to
              aim very high.
2008/3/25-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49561 Activity:nil
3/25    So where is the "Iraq is happiness and light" guy now?
        \_ Well, the media started covering Iraq again.  So obviously, things
           will get worse.  Expect things to get better as soon as the media
           spotlight moves onto other things.
           \_ This is a superb example of correlation != causation. Also see:
              http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0326/p01s13-woiq.html
              \_ Your sarcasm detector is lacking.
                 \_ Try <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags. Your point is not self-
                    evident.
        \_ Which guy was that?
2008/3/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49539 Activity:nil
3/22    I was wrong about the Doctrine of Pre-emptive warfare.
        I was wrong about Iraq possessing WMD.
        I was wrong about Scott Ritter and the inspections.
        I was wrong about the UN involvement in weapons inspections.
        I was wrong about the containment sanctions.
        I was wrong about the broader impact of the war on the Middle East.
        I was wrong about this making us more safe.
        I was wrong about the number of troops needed to stabilize Iraq.
        I was wrong when I stated this administration had a clear plan for the
        aftermath.
        I was wrong about securing the ammunition dumps.
        I was wrong about the ease of bringing democracy to the Middle East.
        I was wrong about dissolving the Iraqi army.
        I was wrong about the looting being unimportant.
        I was wrong that Bush/Cheney were competent.
        I was wrong that we would be greeted as liberators.
        I was wrong to make fun of the anti-war protestors.
        I was wrong not to trust the dirty smelly hippies.
        -- John Cole, 3/21/2008
           http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=9942
2008/3/21-25 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49531 Activity:kinda low
3/21    "Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they
         may ask? Why not join another church?"
        That's obama being quoted, the very next line is K saying:
        "But that is not the question. The question is, Why didn't he leave
         that church?"
        Umm, "join another church" implies "leave that church" pretty damn
        strongly.  Obama spends quite a bit of a 30+ minute speach
        answering this question (fairly well imho).
        \_ The public agrees with you.
           http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/21/opinion/polls/main3958295.shtml
           http://preview.tinyurl.com/2km3hf [cbs[
           \_ that's a bad sign, enough that I'll add here that Ks
              "moral equiv." point is (his 1) reasonable (point). -top
              "moral equiv." point is (his 1) reasonable (one). -top
               \_ Why is it a bad sign?  More to the point, What the
                  HELL are you trying to say.  Language is communication.
                  You should try it sometime.
        \_ You misunderstand.  It's not "why not join another church now", it's
           "why didn't you leave that one as soon as you realized it was crazy".
        \_ You misunderstand.  It's not "why not join another church now",
           it's "why didn't you leave that one as soon as you realized it
           was crazy".
           \_ Because it wasn't crazy.  You should pay more attention.  Perhaps
              there is more to this church than a few inflammatory sound bites.
              \_ Anyone who believes that HIV was CREATED by the USA to kill
                 the black race is crazy.  Just like those who believe the moon
                 landing was a hoax, etc.
           \_ You mean the "crazy radical pastor" who was courted by the
              Clintons while they were in the white house, who served as
              a Marine, and who attended to LBJ in a hospital while he was
              a corpsman?
              How about some "fair and balanced" coverage:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ
              Especially amusing is that "chickens coming home to roost"
              was actually him quoting a Fox News commentator!
              \_ Was "God Damn the USA" a quote?  Was US of KKK-A a quote?  Was
                 his open hatred of white people a quote?  No.  Sorry, the guy
                 is a racist nutjob.  Doesn't matter what his prior services
                 was.  Funny, he says "we took this country by terrorism".
                 Yah, that kind of moral relativism doesn't fly.
                 \_ So you do think only in soundbites.  Sorry.
           \_ http://urltea.com/2zti [Andrew Sullivan]
              Sounds like a good reason to me. Other posts there in this vein.
              "I worked four years as a teacher in the Black community in
               Oakland in the early 90's and these ideas from Wright's
               sermons were endemic." Only way to change them is from the inside.
               sermons were endemic." Only way to change them is from the
               inside.
           \_ http://urltea.com/2ztu [Andrew Sullivan]
              Here the full text of Wright's sermon. He was quoting someone else
              who said "we took this country by terrorism".
              I must say, this sermon is a lot more engaging and interesting than
              anything I ever heard as a Catholic.
              Here the full text of Wright's sermon. He was quoting someone
              else who said "we took this country by terrorism".
              I must say, this sermon is a lot more engaging and interesting
              than anything I ever heard as a Catholic.
2008/3/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:49529 Activity:nil
3/21    Obama: "Typical white [people]" are racist.  Thanks for clearing that
        up, Obama.
        link:csua.org/u/l3d (us news)
        http://csua.org/u/l3e (full quote at NRO)
        \_ and?
           \_ And Obama's a racist, who's been going to a racist church for 20
              years.
              \_ WHITEY MUST PAY!
        \_ Well, we are.  Typical [insert whatever adjective you want, or
           not] people are racist.
           \_ I am wondering why this obviously true statement is
              controversial.
        \_ Oh nice, more out of context slime!  How about we talk about real
           issues, like the economy or the war?
        \_ "The black is a better athlete to begin with because he's been bred
           to be that way"
           "typical white person....there is a reaction that has been bred into
           our experiences"
           \_ Breeding can be cultural instead of genetic.  And do you deny
              that there's a lot of racist white people?  Yeah some minorities
              (or members of minorities) are "good ones" but that doesn't mean
              they aren't racist.  Racism exists in almost everyone.  Not
              letting racism control you is what is really imporant.
              \_ Not to mention that "behavior" and "physical traits" imply
                 much different ideas in the context of "breeding"
              \_ Jimmy the Greek was fired for his statement, and pretty much
                 shunned everywhere.
                 \_ And your point?
           \_ He's being misquoted. "bred into our experiences": he is saying
              everyone has prejudices based on their experiences. If you see
              green berries are poisonous but blue ones taste good, you might
              think all green berries are poisonous. It's human nature. He's
              not using bred in the genetic sense. It's kind of jumbled and
              I haven't seen the original source but he apparently means
              "we have reactions that our experiences have bred in us, that
              don't go away, and can come out in the wrong way." "Breed" has
              a generic meaning in addition to literal sexual reproduction.
2008/3/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49525 Activity:nil
3/21    "God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . .
        And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes
        almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say
        it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a
        nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place."
        -- Martin Luther King, 1968.
        Clearly, MLK hated America, and anyone who ever associated with him
        also hates America.  When will the associates of MLK come clean about
        their America-hating relationship with this America-hater?
2008/3/20-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49511 Activity:nil
3/20    What a surprise, the press practically stopped covering Iraq the moment
        things were going well.
        http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jQlZpvn28yAbvyg8AaAuiELvhINQD8VELQRO0
        \_ The article does not support your scathing indictment.
           \_ "It's possible to pinpoint the exact week that the switch turned
              off. The war averaged 30 minutes per week of coverage last year
              on the three network evening newscasts up until Gen. David
              Petraeus, commander of the U.S. forces, testified in September
              about the surge's progress, according to news consultant Andrew
              Tyndall. In the last 15 weeks of the year, the broadcasts
              collectively spent four minutes per week on the war."
              \_ And so the following revised version of your statement would
                 be accurate: "...the press reduced coverage of Iraq by over
                 85% the week General Petraeus told Congress that the war was
                 going well."
        \_ You have a funny version of "well"
           \_ No, I think you've got the funny definition.
              \_ I know you are but what am I...
                 \_ Yes, that was what the first response was.
        \_ Mission Accomplished!
        \_ I don't think any of you get it.  There is no massive front we are
           battling.  There will be no victory parade.  There is no way to
           determine if the war is going 'well' or 'not well'.  As long as
           people are setting off suicide bombs in Baghdad markets, I'm going
           to say 'not well'. This isn't really a 'war'. There is no fucking
           way Iraq will not dissolve in into Shiite/Sunni/Kurd bloodshed when
           we leave.  Do you really think news coverage in this country effects
           the rate of violence in Iraq?  At all?  Even one tiny bit?
2008/3/19-21 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49502 Activity:nil
3/19    McCain's foreign policy bumbling
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4ykntCXZcE
2008/3/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49496 Activity:high
3/19    Not a peep about Obama's speech?  Just yesterday one of the
        techs at the colo was saying "Shit, did you hear about Obama's
        pastor?  It's gonna be Rodney King all over again..."  Seriously,
        I don't get people.  Are they really more scared of race riots
        than the banking sector imploding?  Is a sermon given a year ago
        by a retiring pastor more important than the war?
        \_ Scroll down to "Obama's pastor speech".
2008/3/17-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49474 Activity:low
3/17    See, the Mission really was Accomplished:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080317/pl_nm/iraq_dc_37
        \_ Dick Cheney, last great Crowleyan magician: if I say it loud enough,
           it must be true!
           \_ Headline of the day:
              "Cheney praises 'phenomenal progress' as bomber kills 39"
              http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/30645.html
              \_ The postmortems on this Administration will be amazing...
                 as will the hagiographies. I predict a GWB airport in 20
                 years.
                 \_ In Baghdad.
                    \_ If they named an airport after GWB in Baghdad it would
                       be because he was considered a local hero.  Think about
                       what you just said.
                       \_ He is just as likely to be considered a hero there
                          (by the rulers, at least, who decide these kinds
                           of things) as in America.
2008/3/12-13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49438 Activity:nil
3/12    hey emarkp, if pre-emptive strike works so well, how come the
        israelis are still fighting? what's your stance on the iraq war now?
        \_ Hey anonymous troll, what's your stance on signing your
           posts? -ausman
        \_ Wow, talk about out of left field.  I have an email address.  Feel
           free to use it. -emarkp
2008/3/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49421 Activity:high
3/10    Exhaustive Pentagon review finds no Saddam/Al Qaeda link:
        http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/v-print/story/29959.html
        "An exhaustive review of more than 600,000 Iraqi documents that were
        captured after the 2003 U.S. invasion has found no evidence that
        Saddam Hussein's regime had any operational links with Osama bin
        Laden's al Qaida terrorist network."
        \_ 600k documents really isn't that many although it sounds impressive
           there are still many millions no one has looked at yet.  I find it
           amusing that the article states several times the Saddam was
           distrustful of religious terrorists being a secular strongman and
           then gives a list of all the religious terrorist groups he
           supported.
        \_ We're busy trying to find the link between Al Qaida and Barack
           Hussein Obama now!
           \_ Obama with an 's' is Osama, what bigger link do you want?
              \_ Barack -> Iraq
                 Hussein -> ...
                 Obama -> Osama
                 It's all there right under our noses! Really, it's
                 careless of the Illuminati. They are getting cocky and
                 toying with us. Of course, Obama is really an artificial
                 being, engineered to be the optimally appealing candidate
                 at this point in time. Thus the ethnic mix, the
                 speechmaking styles that are a composite of Kennedy and
                 MLK Jr, and the exhortations of change designed to
                 perpetuate the facade of democracy while They continue
                 to pull our strings.
                 \_ Hey good point. I never considered the possibility that
                    Obama might be an Alien-Human hybrid created by MJ12.
                    Obama might be an Alien-Human hybrid created MJ12.
                    \_ MJ12 isn't a "thing" like a creature.  It is an
                       organization.  If you're going to get all conspiracy,
                       get it right.  --UFO lover
                       \_ Corrected. I was missing the "by."
                          \_ So you claim!  How do we know you're really you?
                             What agency do you work for?  Why are you trying
                             to create a disinformation campaign?
                    Obama might be an Alien-Human hybrid created MJ12.
                             \_ It's all to throw us off the real scent. Just
                                like Obama's name. I don't think it's careless.
                                There is always a meaning, we just need to find
                                it. Think! What would "created MJ12" mean?
                                It's a clue about the origin of MJ12! And
                                hybrid? Hybrids... Toyota is involved somehow.
                                Layers upon layers...
                                \_ Toyota and Templar both start with T,
                                   curiouser and curiouser.
2008/3/10-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49403 Activity:nil
3/10    Chuck Norris revived:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080310/people_nm/iraq_norris_dc
2008/2/28-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49289 Activity:nil
2/28    Obama says, "if al qaeda is forming a base in Iraq" during the debate
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYny5GJj6_Y
        But here he says he knows al qaeda is in Iraq
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQK0LLbXApo
        \_ dur, his answer was taken out of context.  he said that in reponse
           to what he would do about going back into Iraq.
2008/2/26-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Computer/Theory] UID:49265 Activity:nil
2/26    the day the routers died
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y36fG2Oba0
2008/2/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49187 Activity:kinda low
2/19    Question to all the motd guys who think we should pull out of Iraq
        ASAP, what do you think we should do about Kurdistan?
        \_ Of two minds on this. If we're going to continue the policy of
           letting the Turks bomb the PKK, we might as well just pull out.
           If not, then finding a replacement UN force to sit in Kurdistan
           should be a greater priority than finding the same for Baghdad.
           \_ Huh?  It seemed to me that the Kurdistan govt. had more-or-less
              agreed to the PKK bombing.  Allowing that and allowing full-
              scale invasion (what would probably happen if we leave, from
              1 enemy or another) seem totally different to me.
              \_ Hence the call for a UN force to sit in Kurdistan and
                 prevent Turkey from annexing it.
                 \_ How do you figure a UN force is capable of any such thing?
                    When Turkey moves 50k guys into the region, the 500 UN
                    guys are going to do what exactly?
                    \_ Document it. Maybe. The UN is powerless and
                       ineffective and probably should be dissolved.
                    \_ Provide an International Consensus authorizing the US
                       to move in to protect Kurdistan, thereby paving a
                       legitimate basis for establishing a base in
                       the then-viable independent Kurdistan. It's a win-win:
                       we get our base, the Kurds get their state, and the
                       world loves us.
        \_ Let the Invisible Hand take care of it.
2008/2/15-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49150 Activity:nil
2/15    Bill Kristol's Obscure Masterpiece by Jonathan Schwarz
        http://www.csua.org/u/krw (tomdispatch.com)
2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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