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2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
 12/6

 2003/2/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27450 Activity:very high 2/18 Evan picks Zora, further justifying our need to go to war with Iraq. \_ My glorious campaign against the blonde bondage queen was a great success! -- shussein \_ Zora has bigger bosom than Sarah. \_ Zora has bigger bosom than Sarah. That's the reason. \_ But DorkBoy had a thing for blondes. \_ Really? I must have missed that part. \_ each round he kept saying, so-n-so "is so hot, she's blond and ...". \_ Choice between bond blondage blowjob girl and girl with bigger tits. Which would you choose? \_ Is she the bondage girl? \_ No, sarah was the one who did some "fetish modeling" \_ ... although she was fully clothed in the modeling, according to the Yahoo news article. \_ I saw the pics. Very tame and actually more silly than anything else. I guess one man's fetish is most men's silly and laughable. She was a gold digger anyway. \_ I think Zora was a plant and the show was scripted. \_ I don't think she was a plant but the show was at least partially scripted. I'm sure the producers gave him more info than his dates and lead him by the nose a lot. He's no rocket scientist or anything. Oh well, wait, maybe these days he'd qualify.... \_ did they reveal the deception? if so, what happened? Or will they have another special called "The Aftermath". \_ Yes. Nothing much. Yes. \_ Zora: "the good news is, I really was turned off by the fact that you inherited all that money." Sarah: "Did you feel that was something I was concerned with?" she asked, trying to look like it wasn't. Evan had already made up his mind before these responses. http://csua.org/u/97b (story.news.yahoo.com) \_ can someone explain or guess or whatever why his inheriting money is a turn off? he's still a big dumb jerk.
 2003/2/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27446 Activity:high 2/17 I've seen many opponents of an Iraq invasion refer to it as a "racist war." I don't understand this. Since the current administration is comprised of white people and black people, does that mean we can only go to war with countries made up of white or black people in order to not have a racist war? \_ here's an idea i'm too lazy to implement, but would be a good idea. one file that anyone can append to but no one can delete from for pro-war arguments, and one for aniti-war arguments, and we'll see what motd poeple come up with on both sides. you know you want to do this and see what people write. \_ Obviously the rich white people and oreos are oppressing the Arab world for oil. (wow, it's so easy to think like a liberal!) \_ Like so many things, grasshopper, it is easy to do, but difficult to do well. \_ Yes, something like that. \_ only if the people liberated vote democrat, then it's okay \_ Most of these nuts think all war is bad. \_ oh boy, another strawman argument. How clever. -tom
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27418 Activity:high 2/14 http://csua.org/u/955 (Last letter on page) "There really are a lot of good men out there. They just happen to be yellow." \_ Hoyt Sze! \_ anybody have hoyt sze's writings archived somewhere? I searched on google and can't find anything. I keep hearing about his views on asian women/white men, but it's all second hand. Where is the source on this stuff? \_ Hoyt was an idiot. This guy is right. \_ he seems to think gay men aren't asian \_ I think the truth is that gay asians are not what he was writing about nor who he was writing for and he's a bit obtuse as a writer. This is not a crime outside of Berkeley, you may be surprised to learn. \_ San Francisco women are all Gold Diggers.
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27417 Activity:nil 2/13 The Boomerang Effect http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson021403.asp Spot on commentary except that about Kosovo.
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27416 Activity:high 2/14 the u.s. is at its moment of truth (no troll). we hoped to find a smoking gun, but we haven't produced it. we sent powell in to convince the world, but blix threw cold water on his "evidence" a week later. france, russia, and china want expanded inspections, not war. ironically, the u.s. is telling everyone else it's their "moment of truth". all spin, I guess. we appear poised to strike in march. what will the u.s. do if it can't put forward any proof before then? \_ Bush will go to war with Iraq no matter what happens. The only way out is for Hussein to abdicate. This war was decided upon before 9/11. before 9/11. -ausman \_ Blix did not moisturize Powell's evidence. The question \_ you sure about that? is who has more credibility. A U.N. that just appointed Iraq to lead the disarmament council and Libya to preside \_ Those appointments are based on a rotating schedule. It is at best an amusing coincidence. over the Human Rights Council, and which receives 30-40% of Iraq's oil revenues, or the Bush and Blair administrations. The only antogonists to this war are engaging in a blatant economic power play. This is proxy war on the Saudis and Islam. \_ it seems more like the world is saying: you can't have a preemptive war \_ There is an alternative. There are operatives on the ground trying to start a guerrilla war. Hussein cannot use his military to fight such a war without US intervention. World opinion would be against him if he killed "his own people". I believe this is the route the US is now pursuing with spec ops already known to be in Iraq. --dim \_ The proponents of this war are engaging in a blatant economic power play, too. \_ The U.S. will be attacked, not Europe. The U.S. has been the de facto guarantor of international stability for the past 50 years, paid for with U.S. tax dollars and US blood. During this time the Europeans grew fat and lazy engorging at the trough of socialism and welfare. Simulataneously, France did everything in its power to subvert NATO solidarity - nearly crossing the line of treachery.
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27414 Activity:insanely high 2/13 The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War With Iraq: A Macroeconomic and Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html \_ We Should Go to War With France for Fucking up Capitalization in the English Language After 1066. \_ interesting. this whole war thing stinks of Henry Kissinger. \_ his writing style gives him away as an alarmist. take this with several grains of salt. \_ Interesting article. Not long ago, the WSJ has an article saying that the US dollars used to be propped up by both european and east asian buyers, but the european buyers had pretty much dried up, so the US dollars is now all propped up by asians. They are the only ones left supporting the US budget deficit and trade deficit. Once that stop, what will US government do? Increase interest rate? Nah. Probably start printing money. Need to keep the economy going even if it makes us poorer. \_ Except there is no substitute for the dollar. European countries are far worse off then the U.S. and Japan is not large enough. All other oil transactions are denominated in dollars, so until that changes... \_ Nah, many well respected economists, fund managers, etc. are betting on Europe. The fruits of economic integration is yet to be realized and profited from. \_ You have to be kidding me. Both Germany's and Frances pension liabilities exceed 110% of their GDP, unemployment 15%+, they created zero jobs during 90's. their own citizens not foreigners so it won't affect currency. Bad 90s doesn't mean bad 00s. Remember 80s and 90s for Japan and US. \_ Pension liabilities will not by itself affect currency. We are in 00s not 90s. Remember 80s and 90s and Japan and US. Rewards of EU integration are just waiting to be reaped. Eastern Europe is up and coming. Euro has already appreciated quite a bit. I am gonna buy some european or far east mutual funds, ones without dollar hedging. \_ So government debt has no effect on exchange rates... in your dreams. Its not even worth debating if you believe this. \_ If the financing is within the euro area, then it won't. Foreigners don't own massive amounts of the euro. They do own massive amounts of the dollar. About 1 trillion in east asia alone. And that's just forex owned by the asian governments. \_ 15%??? Where did you get this figure. The real statistic is more like half that. Remember that the US figure is kept artificially low by the 2M in prison and out of the labor pool. If you add them back in, the rates are about the same. US social security has the same underfunded problems as European pensions. Europe doesn't need to create jobs, since their employment pools are not growing. Europe has been focusing on productivity growth, and it is paying off. German workers are the most productive on the planet. The US is in trouble with its huge imbalance of trade and growing deficits. The dollar is going to deflate much more before long.
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27413 Activity:high 2/14 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7396-2003Feb14.html Saddam passed a law outlawing ministries from producing WMD. Maybe all the anti-war people were right. Powell also got dissed by Blix. :P \_ This _is_ sarcasm, right? \_ nope. the idea is if expanded inspections turn up something, france would feel more comfortable backing punishment. \_ Spoken like a historical halfwit. France can be blamed or partially blamed for every major conflict in the past 120 years, starting with Franco-Prussian war. \_ Yeah right, like anyone in the Iraq govt is going to arrest Saddam for breaking this law.
 2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:27410 Activity:kinda low 2/14 Regarding the US soldiers raping a korean soldier news. During the first gulf war there were women POWs and they were raped by the Iraqis. I remember some media pundit saying that the men get raped too. I always thought it's third world lowlifes that rape POWs. But after reading that korean news, I'm convinced that our soldiers do the same in the battlefields. It's like prison guards, they rape inmates not for the sex but for the violence and the power. \_ Soldiers are soldiers - all day with a male squad and no fun makes those killers hot and randy. If you can brainwash them into killing all of 'them,' then raping 'them' is no problem. \_ and you know this because? \_ and you share your incoherent ramblings why? \_ The Japanese soldires did that to civilians in China during WWII, and they were no third world soldires. \_ and Korean civilians and Dutch civilians \_ Dutch civilians? Where? \_ Dutch East Indies (a.k.a. Indonesia). \_ The vikings, Mongols, Romans, and probably everyone else did this to POWs and conquered peoples throughout history to establish dominance and de-humanize their caoptives. It wasn't right then, and it's not right now. And now that we can stop it, we need to do so. \_ American soldiers raped a lot of Vietnamese during that war. \_ Tell me the general public can now post to the motd. Can people at this school really be this stupid? \_ no and yes
 2003/2/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27383 Activity:very high 2/12 hey war nerds, who forced out the last UN weapons inspection team in Iraq? Was it the Iraqis, or was it the united states? no this is not a troll. thanks \_ Why would have the US forced out the weapons inspection team? \_ Er. They were pulled because the US was starting bombing. \_ Iraqis, sorta. Repeated refusals to allow inspections of palaces and limiting access to some facilities had the UN inspectors give up and go home. That caused the renewal of sactions. \_ If you don't know, just keep your mouth shut \_ Actually, the ignorance is telling. My impression is that most Americans have already forgotten that it was the UN that ordered the inspectors out in preparation for US bombing. I think a great many have revised history in their own heads and believe that Iraq ordered them out. \_ And why were they ordered to get out? Because the Iraqis weren't letting them do their jobs. So who's to blame? \_ Do you actually listen to yourself? \_ What the fuck do you expect them to do? Inspec the same site hundreds of times? I know maybe you think they should inspect shopping malls and grocery stores. The Iraqis agreed to cooperate at the end of Gulf War. Iraq violated the terms of cease fire, the US inspectors left out of frustration and disgust. \_ Wrong. \_ OK So everyone is wrong but you. Post a reference please? (Not the socialist club either) \_ Ooh. What's the socialist club? Can I join? \_ Tony Blair did an interview last week in which he was grilled for saying that the Iraqis forced us out. He said that because they were not allowed to do their work, they were "essentially forced out". So whether you say that the inspectors left because of the Iraqis or because of UN inspectors is entirely moot. \_ Even your favorite anti-war pedophile Scott Ritter testified before Congress to the effect that the inpsectors were hindered. Exactly how would you remedy such a situation. Allow to me guess - like the French, you would recommend Iraq pass a law outlawing WMD. In fact, the Democrats, such as Daschle, Berger, Gore, etc. engaged in vociferous sabre rattling over the issue. But in the end, like everything, they were all talk.
 2003/2/12-7/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27379 Activity:insanely high 2/12 A sober reminder: Which of these do you regard as the greatest threat to world peace? United States 32% N. Korea 26% Iraq 25% Israel 2% Commercial Radio 6% The scary part is that this poll is conducted by Britian, our closest ally. http://csua.org/u/938 \_ ...and in other news 30% of software engineers see Cowboy Neal as a major threat to world peace. polls are bullshit. \_ This isn't a sober reminder of anything. This is a cheap troll and I'm stunned several of you fell for it. A shitty cut n paste of an old poll. Jesus F. Christ! You people are such suckers. I'm going to leave all you "got trolled" fuckers up here so you can see yourselves and be ashamed even if your names are unknown. \_ Take yer meds and calm down. \_ If the UK were attacked, wouldn't you think the poll would be a little different? \_ Iraq never attacked the US \_ dodgin' da queshun eh \_ Al Qaeda is in Iraq, no one disputes this now. These fucking Euroweenies are dragging their feet as part of a power play. Except they are not in danger, it is the US who bears the brunt of terrorist animosity. Fucking bastards. France used to be a great country until the end of the 19th century. The slide began when they got their ass kicked by Mexico. Subsequently, they lost all of their able bodied men in the Franco-Prussian war, WWI, and WWII. The only men left to repopulate the country were the queers, Communists and other non-combatants who sipped coffee on the Champs d'elysee rather than defend the country. \_ last time I checked, this was a war against Iraqi and Sadam; not Al Qaeda, per se. I'm sure we would have alot more support if the goal was declared as "chasing these damn terrorists wherever they run... now into iraq." That is not the case. \_ It's not that they don't like the United States or that they like Iraq. It's simply that they can't answer "yes" to the question "Can you trust a very powerful United States to act out of fairness instead of for their own interest?". For the world, the answer is "No". Of course, they would hate an Iraq as powerful as the US, but it isn't. \_ that is my point. I just want to remind those who think US is the center of the universe (I am not in the US right now) that most people in the world see USA as a 800 pound guerrilla who never reluctant to throw her weight around for her self-interest. This continues act of unconstraint has an interesting effect of building anti-American setement world wide. -OP \_ Your critique of US foreign policy seems to be somewhat hindered by the fact that your post makes you seem like a complete moron. I suggest you check your spelling and grammar -- at least consult an english speaking friend. \_ This reminds me of the saying, "what does it mean when someone speaks English with an accent? that he speaks at least one more language than you." Have you ever been outside of the U.S.? what the OP said is nothing new, and it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of the world feels this way, whether admitted or not. Picking on his spelling and grammar may make you feel like a big man, but it's a pretty poor retort to what we all know the OP meant. \_ Read this: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/wo_muller020702.asp \_ More on this. Saddam had a multibillion nuclear program with 20,000 workers. Had the Gulf War I \_ More on this. Saddam's multibillion nuclear program had 20,000+ workers. Had the Gulf War I It doesn't cover whether it's right or wrong, or how trustworthy the U.S. is, but it explains why the Bush administration is attacking Iraq. It's also a year old article. \_ More on this. Saddam's multibillion nuclear program had 20,000+ workers. Had the Gulf War I \_ You can stop terror by shifting the balance of power in the middle east. A bold initiative is required, perpetuating the current paradigm will only cause increasing instability. The question is not what the Socialists in France, Germany, and Belgium think of us, the question is what is right. None of these countries will be attacked until the US falls. Then its their turn. This is a war against Islam, and Iraq is a battle in this war. Changing the regime in Iraq will have profound geopolitical consequences. not taken place, the intelligence consensus is that he would have been nuclear by 1993. \_ Yes, but they still would have been US allies so the situation would be akin to India and Pakistan. Besides, Israel would have bombed a nuke site if they had found it. \_ You can't stop terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic, just like "stragetic bombing" is a tactic. You can't declare war on (nor winning against) tactics. \_ yeah, but can you stop terror? \_ By destroying everything that makes you afraid. \_ You can stop terror by shifting the balance of power in the middle east. A bold initiative is required, perpetuating the current paradigm will only cause increasing instability. The question is not what the Socialists in France, Germany, and Belgium think of us, the question is what is right. None of these countries will be attacked until the US falls. Then its their turn. This is a war against Islam, and Iraq is a battle in this war. Changing the regime in Iraq will have profound geopolitical consequences. \_ So it is a holy war. Ah, welcome back Crusaders 2k. \_ well duh \_ Do you recall who the fate of most Crusaders? \_ The Crusades were a defensive measure, doomed from the outset. Christendom was on its way out, the West was lucky to survive. How quickly we forget that almost all Islamic lands apart from Asia were once Christian. \_ How very European of you. Nice spin try. \_ Spin = historical facts? \_ Garbage! Our esteemed president Bush is a Christian warrior, and he is kicking Islamic arse!
 2003/2/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27362 Activity:very high 2/10 Powell's going to burst a vessel, Rumsfeld won't know what to do, and Bush won't say anything until Friday at the earliest. I bet they didn't expect Putin to publicly back France/Germany on expanded inspections. \_ Bush does not care what any of these countries think, why should he? We will be at war with Iraq in six weeks, tops. \_ France and Germany have already admitted Iraq has WMD. To them, the question is one of economics and their trade relationship with Iraq. This is what happens when Greens involve themselves in international affairs. \_ Wait, kind of like the Union Banking Corporation (director Prescott Bush, grandfather of current president) financing Nazi industry in WWII? The only reason US companies aren't complaining is because of Sept 11 and bad PR. \_ This analogy makes no sense at all. So you, as an anti- corporate Chomskite, are the arch public relations corporate Chomskyite, are the arch public relations officer for the entire Fortune 500 and speak as their representative? I guess we are fortunate to have you on the motd. \_ Both of these arguments carry little weight. I could just as easily argue that Republican Texas-raised Bush and his old cronies seek control over a major oil source to counter OPEC. After all, Dubya's National Security Adviser has an oil tanker named after her, \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either. from where she used to work. \_ Not "work"; she was on the board of directors. Hardly the same thing. \_ And triangulating the Saudis would be a bad idea? We can't go after them directly. \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either. It is all about economics on both sides. \_ I thought it was more about the US having a huge, costly force commitment. \_It's all about control that extra 8% (whatever) of oil reserve. It's all about expanding the sphere of influence into that region. In the long run, controlling these oil reserve worth a lot more than billions of dollars we dump... at least what is what the president-I-didn't-vote- for think. This is pure US aggression, imperalism at it's finest since the Opium War 150 years ago. \_ Right... the U.S.'s blatant history of naked aggresion and military / economic subversion of its sphere of influence. Anyways, its much better to let the Soviets brilliant histoy of allying itself with militant militant Islam for example. or EU control the region. Take France's brilliant history of allying itself with militant Islam for example - we need more of this. Enforcing UN resolutions is imperialism now is it? Where were all of you sanctimonious pacifists when Clinton wanted to do the exact same thing in 1998 or when we saved the EU's ass in the Balkans. \_ You tell em! Nader in 2004! Four more years! \_ Wasn't the Opium War by the British?
 2003/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27355 Activity:nil 2/8 I'm against this war because it's all about oil, but even if it isn't I'm not convinced Iraq is harbouring weapons of mass destruction, but even if they are I'm against this war because the UN has not authorized it, but even if they do I'm against this war unless there's an imminent threat, but even if there is I'm against this war because an invasion would prove a military disaster, but even if it isn't I'm against this war because toppling Saddam would increase terrorism, but even if it doesn't I'm against this war because the world will see us as unilateralist, but even if it doesn't I'm against this war because it will cost too much, but even if it doesn't it's because we used Iraqi oil to pay for it. See, I told you it's all about oil. Besides, what about North Korea?" \_ This was really amusing. Thanks.
 2003/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27334 Activity:nil 2/6 Classic freerepublic thread. Pithy geopolitical analysis. My Reservations About War with Iraq http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/837467/posts?page=1,50
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
 12/6

 2003/2/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27323 Activity:very high 2/6 Yesterday at the UN: UN French Ambassador: "this whole issue could be solved if Iraq would pass a law banning the production of WMD." \_ HAHHAAHHAHA! I haven't had such a good laugh in a while. \_ No worse than the US's "let us invade and we'll show you the WMD after we find them. Really." \_ France has already acknowledged Iraq has WMD. \_ the u.s., uk, russia, china, france all believe iraq is hiding their wmd. russia, china, france think, for good reason, that a u.s. attack now would be destabilizing. the argument has been and will always be, 'why look like the world is submitting to u.s. hegemony? saddam can't do anything while inspectors are there. the longer the inspectors are there, the better chance they'll find something damning, which can be leveraged.' \_ They are hoping for a reach around. \_ Nonsense. While the inspectors waste time, he's doing shit in other parts of his very large country. And then what are you going to say when he kicks out the inspectors and announces he has a nuke in 6-9 months? More inspections? Sanctions? Or just welcome him to the nuclear club as the nice guy that he is? Join this world, please. \_ france is asking for more inspectors \_ Then Iraq joins like Pakistan, India, Israel, and South Korea did. So what? Saddam is a meglomaniac, not suicidal. Power is his kick. And the 6-9 month guess is crap. \_ Everytime the inspectors get close to something, Iraqis with guns tell them: "You can't go there." They had to get led to the empty warheads by their nose, otherwise they wouldn't have found those either. \_ I think you should check your facts about this ... \_ France and Russia have oil deals with Saddam, if the sanctions are ever lifted. They want Saddam to behave and stay in power. Unfortunately neither of those will happen. \_ And don't forget how much business France and Germany have there in non-oil deals and how much WMD related shit the Germans have been illegally selling them since '91. All that is going to come out and make the Germans look exceptionally bad after Saddam's Iraq is crushed.
 2003/2/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27282 Activity:very high 2/2 I'm about to buy a magazine subscription. I'm trying to decide between: Harpers, The New Yorker, Harper's Bazaar, Vanity Fair, and The Economist. Any opinions/suggestions? \_ Sign your post. This was one of the better motd threads! \_ liberal! \_ hm... more of an indictment than a suggestion. But thanks! -op \_ The Economist is pretty damned conservative. They are totally in favor of bombing Iraq, w/ or w/o the UN. \_The Economist seems like somewhat of an odd duck in that selection. \_ you mean it doesn't suck? yeah, i agree. \_ Quite amusing. I used to subcribe to three of those (Harpers, The New Yorker, and The Economist). It really depends on what you're into. 1) The New Yorker -- nowhere near as good as in Tina Brown's days, but stil worth reading for (a) the cartoons and (b) Seymour Hersch' occasional exposes. \_ I can't speak for current New Yorker, but Tina Brown era was, relatively speaking, pretty bad. Brown sold issues because she was good at hyping the magazine, but not much else. 2) Harper's -- give you nice warm fuzzies if you're a midwestern small college, Madison Wisconsin-educated, Prairie Home Companion-listening type. The articles tend to be good, if a bit self-righteous, plus you get to read Lewis Lapham's monthly whinings. 3) The Economist -- I've been a subscriber to this since I was seventeen. I joke that it's an excellent British humour magazine. Still, it has good international reporting, plus has in-depth analyses of a specific country or business or trend every few weeks. An excellent way of knowing what's going on in the rest of the world, especially if you tend to feel your intelligence insulted by Time or Newsweek or the like. \_ Agreed. I used to read it exclusively for the news and ignored the bits about business and the economy. Its politics are refreshingly obvious, which makes them easy to ignore. --erikred If you want more details, email me -coganman \_ I subscribe to the same three as coganman, but I am letting my New Yorker subscription lapse, as half of it is about the New York art scene, which I am not interested in. The other half has some gems, but not worth wading through, imho. Harpers _ is consistently good, comes once a month and can be read in one sitting. The Economist is always well written, but often about quite esoteric subjects: how interested are you in the exchange rate of the Ringgit, for example, which they seem to write about every week. The Economist comes weekly and is quite dense, expect to spend 3-4 hr/wk reading it. It is also relatively quite expensive. You should add Atlantic Monthly to your list, btw. -ausman \_ the new yorker has had some really interesting middle east and afghanistan articles lately \_ I second the Atlantic Monthly recommendation and recommend checking out their website once in a while. \_ this has proven to be quite a hard decision. yes, I was considering adding Atlantic Monthly to my list as well. I am currently living in NYC... so the half of the New Yorker about arts in the city would actually be interesting to me. \- the economist before anything else. then the NYker. i like the NYRevBooks too. buy the Atlantic if they have a long article you are interested in. atlantic is pretty cheep. forget the rest. do you have time to read 3mags/wk? --psb \_ I read NY Review of Books online... \_ Economist is not as good as it used to be. There used to be more writings about the Ringgit, but now it is more and more like Time magazine, with a US-centric view of the world. The magazine feels more and more dominated by Yankee editors. It's not that they are necessarily wrong, it's just that I might as well watch CNN for that. Still I would take Economist over the other two, since I fall asleep reading the other two. \- well i agree the e'ist has slacked off a little. however if you want general purpose weekly where the science writing that doesnt have to remind you the nucleus consist of protons and neutrons, pick the e'ist. if you want to not only read an article about the asian currency crisis talking about the USD-ringgit exchange rate, but you want to read an article 5 years later about "new acdemic inter- preations of the asian meltdown", again this is soemthing the economist "economics focus" will write on, but others will not. TIME is written for 8th graders and the e'ist average 8th graders and colleg students, which is minute. If you read e'ist for a while and have for people who went to college. --psb analysis over time, you will find it at the same level as Larry King Live or 60 Minutes. It is the same kind packaged to different education background. You might have information there you do not find mentioned on the rest of the stuff that you read, but if you belive what \_ Yes the difference in the level of actual intelligence subscribe to USA Today only. It does not cost that much. between e'ist and time is similar to that between average 8th graders and average college students, which is minute. If you read e'ist for a while and have the attention span or concentration to compare their analysis over time, or if you examine their article on subjects you are familiar with, you will rank it the same as Larry King Live or 60 Minutes. It is the same kind of stuff packaged to different education backgrounds. You will have information there not covered on the other things that you might read, but if you belive what you read based on where it is printed, you might as well subscribe to USA Today only. It has more weight/buck. \- it's not a matter of beliving it all. the relevance is as follows. 1. the articles are shorter because the dont have to include details like "iraq, a country in the middle east, ...". 2. often they indirectly allude to stuff that will give you an extra level of understanding if you are familar with an academic approach to the topic. for examples the terrorist and the time bomb is kind of a classic from philosophy classes. if you are not familar with that, you get some appreciation of the issues taking it at face value. if you are familiar with the "trolly problem" discussion, you get some bonus material. 3. they have have some funny and semi obscure jokes that are fun, like the article "ave atque vale" some issues back. 4. in terms of subject material, there is some stuff that will be of interest to the educated classes which you will NOT see on 60min or L. KING. bright people who are not economists will not read econometrica or other professional econ journals or working papers but they may be interested now and then on interesting reasearch developments on say refinements to the neoclassical growth model, post solow, or to say a new theory about NAIRU ... obviously if you dont know what NAIRU is, like most TIME readers, this will be of limited interest. 5. the e'ist typically has better graphs, charts etc than other people because the can opt to choose more complicated graphs ... probably not an option for usa today because usa today readers would probably confused by a thermometer that read both degF and degC. --psb \_ Weekly Standard or National Review if you actually want to provoke thought. \_This comment would be funny if it weren't so sad. \_ Can you elaborate on your erudition or do you lack the pretense? \_ if you're going to use big words, you really should figure out what they mean first. -tom \_ Fascinating how every time I see criticisms of WS or NR they are ad hominem. \_ 1. The Economist 2. Nation 3. Atlantic Monthly. Honorable Mention: Harpers, Foreign Affairs
 2003/2/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27280 Activity:nil 2/1 For the idiots among us. You're in 100% agreement with the psychotic butchers running the show in Iraq. I'm proud you've all finally found new philosophical leadership now that the USSR is dead. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=BJKKZDZVFUFBACRBAELCFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=2152926
 2003/2/1 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27273 Activity:very high 2/1 Space shuttle Columbia lost. Destroyed during landing attempt. http://www.nandotimes.com/front/v-text/story/745163p-5408642c.html \_ Pick your favorite news service. Obviously the story is everywhere. 200,000 feet in the air over Texas when it disintegrated. No chance of survivors. A dark day for us all. \_ why's it a dark day for us all? It's only 7 people; we kill that many in Iraq daily, and that's even before we invade. \_ You're an idiot. \_ Why is he an idiot? I think that's a relevent point to consider. \_ There's no relation or comparison to the two. That's why he's an idiot. Only an ultra leftist Berkeley quality sub-genius idiot would think like that. Thus, he's an idiot. The same kind of idiot that wanted sanctions instead of the gulf war and now makes pathetic whimpering noises about how sanctions are killing hundreds of millions of Iraqi children everyday. That \_ in the end it's still 7 people. no one gave a shit when 7 germans died in a helicopter crash in afghanistan. some marines died that way too. kind of idiot. \_ the general point of its only being 7 people is valid and no one gave a shit about the various people who got killed in fuckups in afghanistan \_ putting those 7 people into space involved the dedicated efforts of hundreds of thousands and the support of hundreds of millions of people. \_ So does toppling brutal dictator Sharon. \_ Perhaps you missed out on the recent elections where your Jew hating Arab parties got crushed and lost seats all over the place? Go compare to the PLO 'elections'. Oh wait, they don't have any. \_ right, and if brutal dictator sharon were killed in a big flash of light over texas, that would be a big deal, too. \_ Speculation of cause? Oldest shuttle, came in too hot at 200K feet, heat shield failure, something decompressed. \_ Don't fly with jews. \_ Nando story says on takeoff, some debris fell and hit the shuttle. They didn't think it would cause problems, but maybe they were wrong. \_ Apparently Columbia had just gone through major overhaul to replace old parts, etc.
 2003/2/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27272 Activity:nil 1/31 The Cheney plan for Iraq: Chop it up and give away the pieces http://csua.org/u/8b1 http://csua.org/u/8b2 \_ this appears to be quite old news.
 2003/1/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27260 Activity:very high 1/31 MEMORIES OF A FREE IRAQ. The Fire Last Time http://www.tnr.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20030210&s=alsuwaij021003 \_ Thank you for posting this! It was a very interesting essay, and I wouldn't have seen it otherwise. (seriously) \_ Will the Shiite dominated regions just break off and join Iran? \_ Unlikely, IMHO. Why would Arabs would want to be dominated by Persians, even if they share the same religion? BTW, according to one of Pentagon's numerous "leaked" plans, a new Kurdish state will be formed in the Northern Iraq, the Shiite populated south will become part of Kuwait, and the rest of Iraq will become part of Jordan .. \_ PLEASE post a link to these "leaked" plans-- I would almost support such a plan. \_ Who gets Baghdad? US? \_ Which part of "the rest of Iraq" above did you not understand? \_ How am I supposed to know Baghdad is not in Southern or Northern Iraq? It's not like Iraq is so important I have to know its geography. \_ Because you're supposed to be a college student and vaguely aware of these things and capable of looking them up for yourself. Go back to k-3 if you still need to be spoonfed. Idiot, you don't belong at Cal. \_ Highly unlikely that Kurdistan would form unless you want the US to screw over Turkey, which would lead it to become an Islamic state and probably increasing tension in the region. \_ The Kurds aren't getting anything. They'll get fucked as usual. It doesn't matter much anyway since they're a bunch of barbarians. Fuck em.
 2003/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27211 Activity:very high 1/27 "Anti-inspectors" in Iraq. http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_9.html \_ Wolfowitz is a lying scoundrel. He will do or say anything to advance his agenda. Remember when he claimed that the anthrax attacks were the work of Iraq? http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2841wolfowitz.html \_ Not to defend Wolfowitz, but what makes you think Iraq wasn't connected to the anthrax attacks? \_ do you have any evidence connecting them to it? i personally believe iraq was behind the 1993 wtc bombing \_ no, but is there *any* useful evidence in this case that has been made public? as far as i know, the answer is no. all i'm saying is we don't know if it was iraq or not. \_ It is irresponsible for the assistant secretary of defence to be making unsubstantiated charges like that. If he was a private citizen it wouldn't matter anywhere near as much. \_ we have as much evidence Iraq is behind the postal anthrax attacks as we have tom holub being the 5th Iman of Islam \_ but we do have proof that tom's the 2nd ass of a 3-assed monkey
 2003/1/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27198 Activity:moderate 1/24 Saddam's Brain "It is Michel Aflaq who created the party and not I," Saddam told an interviewer in 1980. http://csua.org/u/875 \_ Stop deleting my comment about liberalism. Too bad you can't stand open debate, eh? \_ Interesting article. So why did we give this guy weapons to fight Iran? If you give a guy WMD and he uses them to kill millions, are you responsible for those people's deaths?
 2003/1/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27174 Activity:moderate 1/21 Blacks are disproportionally used as 'the service sector' in the military and have less (often far less) than their share of high profile positions as pilots, special forces, etc. http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030121/4794964s.htm \_ But doesn't that also mean they have less than their share of getting killed? And they have a problem with that? \_ Bzzt. They're more than equally represented in the infantry, making them more likely to get killed and less likely to get recognized. Besides, what you meant to ask is why would a brother want to fight a white man's war against dark people anyway? \_ Errr... Did you not read the article, or are you just stupid? "Of the Army's 45,586 enlisted combat infantryman, 10.6% are black." "they make up a far smaller percentage of troops in combat jobs on the front line." While true this means they're less likely to be promoted. More likely than racism, that probably means they aren't planning to be carrer military. Note that they are more likely to pick jobs that will help in the civilian world. Sounds smart to me. More likely there are more poor white folk in the special forces because their raised on the GI Joe mentality. (Any one who dosen't think so needs to spend more time with both poor whites and poor blacks.) \_ Look, there are two possible explanations for this. 1) racism, or 2) something else. In all cases, the correct answer is racism. \_ Hey! Stop reading article links and bringing those mean and nasty *FACTS* into this! Bastard! How dare you challenge my agenda driven beliefs? \_ It also means less chance for promotion/advancement/specialized training.
 2003/1/21 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27163 Activity:nil 1/20 Court ordered Scott Ritter to attend counseling for sex offenders http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/826186/posts The guy is a nutcase, as if we already did not know.
 2003/1/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27160 Activity:high 1/20 Why do people keep using the hypothetical American military's casualty as an argument against war? First, some soldiers are supposed to die in battle, otherwise you wouldn't need soldiers or wars. Second, serving in the U.S. army is one of the safest profession in the world, even in large scale battles. I would not be surprised if statistically it is safer than being a Cal student. If you really care about U.S. soldiers' lives, you should support the deployment of bigger, better, and more decisive weapons, say nuke everywhere that has a concentration of Iraqi troops. We can do it and it would eliminate all U.S. casualty except those due to accidents, which happens anyway. \_ hello wack job! \_ this is damned silly logic. -mice \_ 696,628 U.S. troops served in the Gulf War 1990/1991. 263,000 sought medical care at VA facilities for Gulf War Syndrome. At least 64% of all U.S. troops who served during the Persian Gulf War were (and still are) at high risk of developing the symptoms and disabilities of Gulf War Syndrome. http://projects.is.asu.edu/pipermail/hpn/2000-August/001119.html \_ We actually deployed 696,628 people to Iraq? "Serving in the Gulf War" doesn't necessarily imply going to Iraq or even leaving this country. this country. Did all of the 263,000 people serve in Iraq? \_ I know a guy who served in the gulf war. He's an arabic language translator. He never left his base in Texas. \_ good thing he wasn't gay
 2003/1/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27159 Activity:very high 1/20 ok so settle this bet for me, who has the constitutional authority to declare war, the president or Congress? \_ Google: "constitution, declare war" \_ we haven't been in a war since WWII \_ Well, I belive congress passed a resolution declaring war on Iraq, so that's technically not true. \_ Are you stupid or just stupid? \_ neither, actually. have a cookie, troll. \_ A useful reference: "War declaration replaced by '73 law" http://www.msnbc.com/news/641394.asp \_ This issue involves a subtle distinction: Congress has the sole authority to *declare* war, but the President, as Commander in Chief, has the sole authority to to order US troops into combat. Obviously this can lead to some confusion due to the overlapping roles. The US has engaged in armed conflict at the President's behest on many occasions in the last half century, but War has not officially been declared since 1941 after Japan attacked the US Fleet in Hawaii. Even the authorization to use military force in the wake of the September 11th attacks was not a declaration of war. --bcm \_ Followup question: under what conditions may martial law be declared? -geordan \_ Martial law is easy to declare. \_ The war powers act allows the president to order military action for 60 days without congressional anything. Tom Campbell (in the House at the time, but ran to replace Feinstein) filed a lawsuit against Clinton when he had troops in Kosovo longer than 60 days with no congressional support. \_ thank you for saving me from posting this \_ "Police actions" are okay for the president to act upon.
 2003/1/20-21 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27156 Activity:insanely high 1/19 CHEW ON THIS by Christopher Hitchens http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature2.html \_ [formatd was all over this thread] \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his arguments changed my mind about the war against the Taliban. He makes good points, and I will chew on them for a while. \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his arguments changed my mind about the war against the Taliban. He makes good points, and I will chew on them for a while. \_ Don't you mean war against Islam? \_ Let's be honest: what's wrong with a war against Islam? Or my favorite, "this is a war about oil!". Ok, so what? I can agree to that. I also have no problem with that. Go live in a cave for a year and tell me it isn't worth it. You won't even have a bicycle without oil, much less kuro5hin or slashdot or any of the rest of the leftist too-young-to-get-it net denizens. Same thing for the Euros who want the yankees go home. Let em defend themselves with their own budgets. Go read any press in the world. Read the Arab's own media and they make it clear they consider themselves at war already. \_ It's wrong to kill people to save 0.50 on each gallon of gasoline that you buy. What is your point about "living in a cave" if we don't get cheap oil? Americans waste gas. If America wants that, then we should be responsible enough to pay the price and not get it dishonestly from other countries. Also, why should young men die to save you a bit of money? Would you do the same for them? If this is about nuclear weapons, then the situation is different. But then again, Bush doesn't have enough credibility to avoid appearing disingenuous. \_ Even if this was just about oil (which it is not), the price of oil doesn't just show up at the pump. Any increase in the price of oil also shows up in every store due to the increased cost of shipping (ground and air). It also shows up in the increased cost of petrochemical products (plastics, etc.). Energy efficiency might offset some of the cost increase, but not all of it. Ultimately the people who end up being affect by higher oil prices are ordinary ave americans (the same ones whose kids are dying for lower oil prices). What it means to these people is colder winters, less presents under the christmas tree, fewer shoter vacations, less \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha. Americans are buying SUV's in droves. They make up like 25% of all new cars. They are expensive and wasteful. Go over to East Palo Alto. If you don't see an SUV in the driveway, it will probably be a Camaro or something. Also, should American soldiers die for all of this? I thought they were out to defend freedom Why don't people fucking LIVE closer to work instead of expecting American soldiers and Iraqis to die to maintain their lifestyles? time with their families because of longer hours or multiple jobs. Basically, a complete destruction of of their simple decent lifestyle. \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha. Americans are buying SUV's in droves. They make up like 25% of all new cars. They are expensive and wasteful. Go over to East Palo Alto. If you don't see an SUV in the driveway, it will probably be a Camaro or something. Also, should American soldiers die for all of this? I thought they were out to defend freedom Why don't people fucking LIVE closer to work instead of expecting American soldiers and Iraqis to die to maintain their lifestyles? \_ the US is the largest producer of oil in the world. Also the largest importer. \_ It's politically easier to get oil from Iraq than from drilling off the California coast or some god forsaken patch in Alaska. \_ doofus, those are the wells which are already drilled and producing oil. \_ Because a war about reducing the bottom line for the wealthiest corporations in the world doesn't sound anywhere near as noble as protecting the citizens of this country. Our leaders like to sound very noble. Especially when they send young, dumb kids into combat situations which their own family was wise or connected enough to keep them out of. \_ Bottom line? Yawn. Keep reading the little red book. It's not about corporations. They don't have a bottom line. They pass all costs along. It's about your life style in the short to mid term and your freedom in the long term. \_ Actually he means the coming war on Iraq, or should anyway \_ No, I mean what I say. He had a big split with The Nation over the war in Afghanistan. \_ Wow, I thought C.H. was a big Euro Liberal. What happened? \_ He grew up? \_ Hitchens is still a big Euro liberal, but he believes that the defining elements of liberalism are a belief in self- determination, democracy, freedom of speech, equal rights and tolerance for others. He is right on the mark here. He also believes that defending these values is more imporant than pacifism, or the liberal tendency to try to come to non-violent solutions to problems. He states that Islamic societies are opposed to everything that liberals hold dear, and that a violent aggressive self-defence is neccessary to protect ourselves and our values. But there is quite a bit of difference between attacking someone who is harboring Osama Bin Laden and attacking someone who has done nothing to you. \_ I guess we should just let them get a nuke and wait for them to use it on New York or Washington or SF before we do something about it. \_ Iraq is not the Cuban Missile Crisis. They don't have ICBMs. They don't have nuclear warheads in striking distance of the capitol. It's yet to be shown that they have nuclear capability at all. The inspectors are back in. Let them do their job. \_ so you're saying it's too early to attack when he's just trying to get nukes, and we should wait until he tries for icbm's? \_ If he wouldn't launch chemical warheads on SCUDs at Israel, he's not going to send nukes our way either. He knows the outcome.  2003/1/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27134 Activity:very high 1/16 Have we discussed the double standard that Bush has on North Korea and Iraq. NK has said that they will build nukes and here we are saying that we want to negotiate. And with Iraq we're ready to go to war even though the inspectors haven't found anything. WTF? \_ Do you want to go to war with a country that probably has nukes? \_ Nukes, and neighbors we give a shit about are the differences. \_ haven't we been over this? Iraq has oil our economy needs. We're certainly not going to admit this though. \_ and why not admit it? it's not like anyone outside the U.S. actually believes Bush's lies that this isn't about oil. it might actually increase the amount of respect we get worldwide. \_ Tactically speaking, it makes sense to smash Iraq first (especially since we've been working on getting this started for over a year) and then talk to NK, basically asking them if they'd like to be next. \- "it's about oil" is not a meaningful statment. that's like saying "it's about power". you have to make stronger claims than that if you want and answer/to be taken seriously. --psb \_ I have an actual real answer to this but I don't provide real responses to such blatantly loaded questions and trolls. Maybe if you stopped insulting the intelligence of those you claim you wish to engage in debate you'd get real replies? \_ Why can't NK have nukes? Why can't Iraq have chemical weapons? Because we say they are evil? WTF? It's like the big mob telling the little mobs, you can't have guns!! If you have guns, then you are evil! While all alone, the big mob sells billions of guns to whoever the fu** he pleases. Being a country means you have the right to develop weapons to defend yourself. \-ObMelianDialog \_ North Korea constantly threatens to bomb South Korea, Japan, and the United States. \_ the US constantly threatens to bomb far more countries than I can even count. \_ The best defense seem to be, well, we are the superpower, and anyone in our place would've done the same. Yeah, just like the big mob saying, well, I know what I am dong is evil, but heck, had it been a different mob, they would've done the same. And people just don't stop and think for a moment why suicide bombers want to blow up the WTC. If I am someone who suffers daily from the abuse of the big mob, then you bet your ass I will want to take them down with me! Treat others fairly and others will treat you fairly. Treat others like shit and shit is what you get. But Bush doesn't give a fuck, he's out in 4/8 years so the mess will be whoever next to clean up. All it matters is the defense industry get all the government's money and his circle of friends are rich, even if the cost means killing millions of innocent people. This is crime at the mass scale. \_ You're so cute when you're being naive and angry!  2003/1/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27092 Activity:high 1/13 Another stupid question. Why exactly is Iraq not allowed to have these "weapons of mass destruction"? America and many other countries possess them, so why cannot Iraq? \- better question: why is France on the Security Council --psb \_ better question: why is France on the Security Council --psb \_ On the winning side of WWII and gave the capitalists numerical superiority over the communists. Not that having more really counted for much. \_ It was the only way to make shutup Charles de Galle. \- if you really want to hate france, you should read more about de gaulle's thumbing his nose at churchill and fdr. i dont have a good reference for this but if someone else does, i'd be interested. ok tnx --psb \_ topWorldEconomies - countriesThatLostWWII = securityCouncil \_ ignorance + you = your post. Russia is not a topWorldEconomy. \_ Who else then? Cananda? Harharharharhar! \_ India... Brazil... \_ They entered into a legal arragement at the end of the gulf war where they stated they would not develop nuclear weapons. They agreed because Saddam wanted to stay in power, but now he's violated that contract with the UN according to the chimp in the whitehouse. \_ ... as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must ... [men] by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do. --History of the Peloponnesian War, Book V ("The Melian Dialog") \- "in our lifetime" i think a few more countries are likely to get nukes to make a run at it. iran, japan for example. --psb \- BTW, this may be of some interest: soda:/tmp/Mearsheimer-Walt.pdf I think they are somewhat glib on a few things (then it comes to the importence or non- of nukes) but otherwise it is a fairly accesible and reasonable article. --psb \_ That's a good one though it is glib on points as you say. It nicely outlines, by no specific mention, "so why IS this little cabal so bent on aggressive military action since they seem smart enough to know better?". Anatol Lieven's article in the London Review of Books is the only one I've seen to answer that in a way that made sense. His article has also been prescient given that it was published in October and, thus, likely written in late August. -- ulysses \- i think the the LRB article is leem, although the "jewish problem" in american party politics was kind of interesting. walt and mearsheimer's brains are larger. you may wish to see the issue of IS on this topic. IS is even better. --psb  2003/1/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26997 Activity:very high 1/5 Good analysis of America, its empire, and the role it should play in the middle east: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/magazine/05EMPIRE.html \_ Fuck the NYSlimes - the article couches arguments in the context of a republic but the whole paper is full of nothing but leftist statists. The Slime's politics are anithetical to a Republic. Take this pithy quote for example - '...America backed stability over democracy, propping up the autocratic rule of the shah, only to reap the whirlwind of an Islamic fundamentalist revolution in 1979...". Well no fucking shit, this was the U.S. paradigm of foreign policy throughout the cold war to contain Soviet influence. You can't build a democracy in civilizations a 1000 years behind the West. But wait a minute, wasn't it the left's Messiah Jimmy Carter who reversed U.S. support of the Shah only to embolden Khomeini. This was militant Islam's first success, a success that ignited the situation we face today - all thanks to the fucking moron Jimmy 'moral foreign policy' Carter. The man who brought us Stansfield Turner and ethics to the CIA. So much for 'Good analysis' eh? \- hello, you may wish to read the "Living with a superpower" article in the "Mr. Kim" issue of the E'ist. International Security is very good on for more technical discussions, although you may unknowingly miss some things because the authors take some shortcuts because they assume some familiarity with IR literature. e.g. take a look at: http://csua.org/u/763 [IS is better than FA, FP, WP etc.] n.b. JSTOR may give you better access. --psb \- oh this article may also make you feel better: http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html i dont agree with all of it but it is more interesting that the article by that communist from the TLS the asp walled about. --psb that the article by that communist from the TLS or LRB the asp walled about. --psb \_ Kagan's article is very long and extremely boring, to the point that his points become irrelevant. BTW, \- the kagan article is a little repetitive but he raises an interesting "large issue" and the reset of the world (where American power while the only interesting thing in the article the asp mentions is the democrats' "manhattan problem". i am unable to respond at greater length to these comments via wall. by the way, if you want to acquire some culture, if you havent read it, read the Melian Dialog at the end of BookV should it pursue for the rest of the world? in the History of the Peloponnesian War. it's a fantastic read. (i'm not suggesting it's immediate relevance, but this is a good thing to have in your pocket) --psb communist or not, that article from LRB was at least entertaining and the view could represent any "conservative realist" of another country. To people who know what that word means, Bush and his troops sound very much like the Bolsheviks. \_ Hi. I know what the word 'Bolshevik' means. You do not. You are likely the same moron who was comparing US under Bush to USSR. You have no sense of scale. Go kill yourself now before you get smacked again like last time. \_ There is no disagreement between Kagan's article and the NYT article. They deal with different realms of the world, Kantian vs Hobbesian, Europe (where American power is needed only for external threats) and the rest of the world (where American power is needed to impose internal order). The NYT article deals with what US should do in the rest of the world. Should US act entirely out of its self-interest or should there be a 'moral foreign policy'? If it is entirely for self-interest, how is it different in essence from the Europen empires of the 19th century and earlier? It could not be, so what other options should it pursue for the rest of the world? When Kagan argued that "Americans ought to be the first to understand that a threat to one's beliefs can be as frightening as a threat to one's physical security", he is referring to post-WWII Europe's belief in solving problems between nations through international laws, negotiations, diplomacy and forging of economic ties which is the essence of the European Union, which many Europeans feel is being threatened by America's unilateralism. The same, however, can also be said of the third world's experience of throwing off colonialism to attain self-determination and self-rule, after significant hardship and sacrifice. For many people these beliefs are similarly threatened by American unilateralism, which is why many nations outside of Europe also feel uneasy about US's unilateral exercise of power.  2002/12/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26948 Activity:very high 12/30 The Democrats are history: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n19/liev01_.html \_ Interesting article thanks for posting it. \_ that guy has a clear head on his shoulders. \_ great piece, but your headline is misleading. --erikred  2002/12/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:26937 Activity:high 12/28 Be careful what you say, you might get a visit from the police: http://www.aclunc.org/911/backlash/wu.html \_ boo hoo, terrorist boy gets nabbed by the FBI. That is exactly how it is supposed to work. \_ yup. China had that all worked out for DECADES. \_ Only a russian jew would trade freedom for a "safe" and "fair" system he can find the loopholes in. \_ All I can say is it's a good thing she didn't call anyone a "nigger" or call her roommate a "wetback" she would've gone to jail for that. \_ I must be missing something here, because it starts off with a story about a girl and "Metal Gear Solid" then suddenly switches to some guy from Yemen. Huh? Not to meantion, so people from terrorist countries are checked out more thoughorly nowdays. Big whup. \_ Yemen is a terrorist country? I thought they were one of our "important allies". Funny how muddled all this gets. Hey, wasn't that federal building bombing in Oklahoma done by U.S. citizens. Maybe we should start looking more closely at them too. I know. Let's just start rounding up students. They think about alot of different things, and some of those things must be dangerous. \_ A) Just because the goverment likes us, doesn't mean everyone in the country does. Case and point: Saudi Arabia. (The opposite is also true, say, Iraq.) B) I didn't see you whining back when all the "militias" we're getting checked out. Or even when Waco went down. \_ this writer needs to go back to journalism school. they never introduce "Kamal" until a paragraph AFTER referring to him with third person pronouns...totally fucking confusing shit article. --aaron  2002/12/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26924 Activity:very high 12/27 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27279375 http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/27/science/27CLON.html Rael UFO cult clones human. According to the above news link, a raelian woman has actually given birth to a human clone yesterday. heres a link to the cult website: http://www.rael.org it seems to be down right now, however. \_ It's all over the place. You don't need hokey unheard of sites to read about it. There's also no proof yet. \_ more normal link added to appease whiner. \_ wanting a real news source is not whining. you want me to direct you to my personal website for real news? i think not. you'd find it equally questionable. and there's still no proof clonaid created a real clone, dolly style. (it's like "duh i read it on the net, it must be true!!!!") \_ You're too good for Reuters? You're so l337, duud. \_ http://alertnet.org? Whatever. If it doesn't have a real url from a real source, it's suspect. And no in general reuters is biased crap. youd see that if you read it with a critical eye and questioned the material instead of swallowing it like a sheep. \_ How is reuters any more biased than any other news source in the whole fucking world? If you had any idea what a critical eye is, you would have avoided looking so stupid here by actually looking for more info on this yourself instead of abusing the OP with your nonsense. And, if you would, please point out where the original article posted is biased. \_ Idiot, I had already read other news sources long before the OP posted here. It doesn't even take a mildly critical eye to note I said the news was already all over the place. You're an idiot and only look that much more stupid falsely accusing someone of something they're not guilty of but *you* are. Sheesh, motd posters. And the article is *still* just about some nutty cult making some claims. Nothing is proved. Come back when some one reputable has verified it.  2002/12/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26867 Activity:high 12/19 Turns out that most of Saddam's WMD came from the US: http://csua.org/u/713 \_ Don't forget the krauts--they built poison gas factories in Libya as well. Now they're being pissy about Dubya's chest thumping. axes of evil and demand a UN arms inspection backed by the Or the French, who built most Iraqi reactors. Go figure. -John \_ naw... really? welcome to the '80s... how was your nap? \_ Which country is US? We should certainly include it among the axes of evils and demand an UN arms inspection backed up by the threat of war.  2002/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:26783 Activity:nil 12/10 http://csua.org/u/69b [azcentral.com] Goooooo bears! \_ I believe its pronounced: GO BEAH!  2002/12/3-4 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26703 Activity:high 12/3 http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/3472453.html I moved someone else's link to the top. Sorry if that bugs you. Anyway I think this is great. If you declare war on the government you have to expect that your actions bring risk of risk. \_ And of course, the government would never be wrong about someone's affiliation. -tom \_ I think they maintain a twink points list and eliminate those who break the 100 mark. \_ The article mentions Jose Padilla. I have an mp3 of a guy by the same name; the track name is Walking On Air. Same guy? \_ No. This JP is a small time criminal turned wannabe terrorist. \_ Make you wonder what they're going to do about the radical right-wing groups in the US who advocate overthrowing the government. \_ Doesn't make me wonder at all. Ever heard of Ruby Ridge? We already know thanks to Janet Reno. \_ So there was only one right-wing seperatist in the US and the FBI killed his wife (Hey it doesn't matter, she was \_ So there was only one right-wing seperatist in the US and the FBI killed his wife (Hey it doesn't matter, she was affilitated with him and therefore a enemy combatant, thus now legally a target.) \_ Uhm, I'm trying to come up with a reply but you're not really coherent. Almost but not quite. I'm not going to touch this one. You can have it. You win. I think you're off kilter and dangerous.  2002/12/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26686 Activity:insanely high 12/1 Restored. I like seeing the lefties spewing and drooling. \_ Wow, it's a good thing that all political affiliations are so easily classed as 'right' or 'left' -- otherwise motd would be sadly lacking in facile generalizations from morons such as sadly alacking in facile generalizations from morons such as yourself. whew! \_ I like how you deleted the spew and drool and only restored a small part of the reply and then using a partial out of context partial quote proceeded to falsely state what I was really saying and then insulted me for it. Very standard lefty hack job because, as always, you can't deal with the truth or engage in any sort of intellectually honest debate. I've seen better hack \_ You do realize that more than user exist here, yes? jobs, though. Lefty, are you new here? \_ You do realize that when multiple users share a publicly writeable file, sometimes stuff gets stomped by other inconsiderate users without any malicious intent. Nice conspiracy theory, kid. \_ Yeah! And sometimes one thread survives while another is overwritten. I've even seen where one sentence is deleted while the rest of the post gets spared. Yep, it's all because of random overwrites. Kid, here's a buck. Go buy yourself some clue on how hazards work. \_ Hell, sometimes the deleted posts even magically transmogrify into editorial comment. Them random overwrites sure are clever. \_ On the motd they are. And in the real world they mostly are. There's no point in making subtle points on the motd when you and your lefty comrades delete anything contrary to your leftist religion without debate, thought, or comment. I'm always willing to debate anything to the end of time without deletes or pointless personal insult but everytime I try one of you just erases the whole thing in minutes. Stop censoring and you'll get a real thrashing instead of a quicky thrashing. \_ I love it. You get flamed for being a moron, so naturally the guy flaming you is a censoring lefty. It's okay to be stupid, no one holds it against you. \_ ok, I'll bite. So, as a "righty" do you actually like what your party is doing to the country right now? I'm serious, so please put more than the typical motd "\_ yes". \_ http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2002/db021120.gif \_ yes! \_ you mean like trying to lower my taxes, start drilling for oil \_ how much will you save? shrug. instead of getting raped for 3 _/ months' worth of income, you're getting raped for 3 months - n days. how much are those n days worth? depends on how much you like getting raped, i guess. on our own territory so we don't have to deal with terrorists like the saudis, stomping on terrorist pseudo states like iraq, \_ how much oil are we actually getting from the Saudis? afghanistan, and soon to be saudi arabia, and trying to restore \_ why not North Korea, Uganda, and Myanmar? \_ are you saying that because we can't fix all of them, we shouldn't fix any of them? strange argument. some sense of values? yes. \_ Ah, neo-cons. What a sad bunch of small-dicked men you are.  2002/11/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26563 Activity:very high 11/15 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14552 Your right-wing foreign policy in action (inaction?) \_ Ok, so the NGO's, read the U.N., spend all the money on office space and amenities and you want to blame the President? Wait, isn't it these same NGO's that have run the Palestine occupied territories for 50+ years? U.S. soldiers don't need to be there, Turkey (a Muslim country in case you didn't know) is providing the security force. Otherwise the article makes no relevant points. \_ Why is it always the US that gets blamed for everything? How about you post some figures on how much aid was promised by the Euros vs. how much aid they actually sent? How about you tell us how great it would be in Afghanistan if the Taliban were still in charge? No matter how much we do or spend or fix it's never enough for you, until you eventually point the other finger and say we're being imperialists and destroying their culture and right to free choice in how they run their country. Gach... why do I bother feeding the trolls? \_ Cause it's our fault. Live with it and have fun pissing off the next idiot who starts a tirade about "you Americans..." -John \_ Everyone know the US foreign aid is rather low compared to other developed nations. However private donations is quite high (eg. Bill Gates). \_ Everyone know? How about a URL? Everyone know indeed. \_ ROTF \_ Be nice to the f.o.b. \_ Yeah yeah, show me the URL already. Being fob doesn't get him out of that. \_ Stfw. If you don't read, at least don't be a lazy fuck. I have no interest in expending any energy to prove something to dumb arses like you. On the other hand, how is foreign aid relevant to the discusion? I must have misread the original post. Crap! \_ Not my job to stfw. If he's going to make random claims it is his job to back them up. Until he supports his claims with real references his claims are meaningless. If you're the FOB who is posting zero-reference out-your-ass claims then you need to either stop wasting precious bits on the net with that crap or back them up. You're sure as hell in no position to whine that other people won't do your research for you and then whine further that they are the lazy ones and not yourself. \_ only homosexuals use the word "arse". \_ I use the word "arse", and I didn't know yermom went for doggy style with homosexuals. -John \_ put back on the chaps and get your arse over here. Daddy needs some sweet sweet loving. -aspo \_ When did this start? I thought acting like a clueless foreigner was a virtual "get out of jail free" card in this society? \_ Contrararily, whiney "They are stealing our jobs" natives are the ones who want all the freebies. \_ Uhm, duh, are you out of school? They *are* taking American jobs. -lost job to H1b \_ Except this analysis ignores billions in U.S. military expenditures to protect US and allied interests around the globe. Take for example, the Fifth Fleet protects Europes oil in the Gulf of Arabia, Europe and Pacific allies lived under the nuclear umbrella of the US since WWII, NATO/ U.N. military missions, etc. etc. etc. \_ Free food and patent busting medicine = good. Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to have the US protect you from your intolerant and insanely criminal neighbors with the US military = bad. US = bad. Europe = good. Is it all clear now?  2002/11/13-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26532 Activity:very high 11/13 Iraq accepts weapons inspections: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/13/iraq.un/index.html What is the point of weapons inspections? Does anyone think that the inspectors will actually find the nuclear/chem/bio weapons that Iraq has? \_ Whether they find anything or not isn't really the concern -- of course they will. The real question is how long will Saddam continue to cooperate? This seems like another delaying tactic, appeasing the UN in the short term.... \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of law enforcement. -John \_ Why not? The first weapons inspectors team found a bunch. \_ They've had years to hide stuff. \_ Their own people will spill the beans on a lot of it. There's no such thing as a real secret if more than 1 person knows it. \_ So where is bin Laden? Is he dead or alive? Did Monica swallow? Are you really an idiot? Presumably more than 1 person know the answers to these questions. Please enlighten us. \_ bin laden is alive and in pakistan, monica swallowed, and the above poster is an idiot.  2002/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26531 Activity:insanely high 11/13 conspiracy theory of the day: if Bin Laden were really alive, he'd send al jazeera a video, not an audio tape. hence, the message is fake. however it is a good fake, that has convinced people who know his voice very well. this implies technological sophistication, as well as the intelligence to fake Bin Ladens rather fancy sounding arabic. who would have the motive and the technical knowhow? Iraq. I think this is a fake broadcast by Iraq to try to erode international support for the U.S. \_ You are completely wrong. The only gov. that has the kind of resources to fake a message like that and get all of the media outlets to buy into it is our gov. If you want to be exact not the elected gov. but rather the shadow gov. that actually runs things and spreads misinformation and manipulates the public in order to keep us from knowning the Truth! that we are being used a pawns by aliens bent on galatic conquest. Bin Laden and Sept. 11 and Iraq are all just a cover for the shadow gov. to get funding for black ops. projects designed to facilitate the conversion. Trust No One! - F. Mulder \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of law enforcement. -John \_ Even if you're correct on everything, bin laden being alive won't erode support for the US. Please avoid jobs at the State Dept. \_ did you read the transcript of the message? it's not the existence of the message, but the content. \_ I read it all. So what? You're still in la-la land. \_ It'd more believable if you said it's the US who had the motive and the technical knowhow to fake it. \_ Ooo! I like this one. Only Bin Laden isn't the target anymore. \_ bin laden has never been the target. if he were, he'd be dead. \- i think in the past they have been able to get various info from the video tape ... location conjectures, health of OBL etc so that might be one reason also. --psb \_ you think no one who works for bin laden has heard of a bluescreen? i would like to hope that they're that stupid, but i doubt it. \_ Blue and green screen are easily detectable and are pointless if you're trying to look holy and tough.  2002/11/9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26488 Activity:very high 11/8 The Anti-American Era Is Coming to an End ... smack down link:csua.org/u/50c \_ You know how your man Bush could make us believe he doesn't have a boner for Iraqi oil? He could make it illegal for any Americans to profit from the exploitation of Iraqi oil production after the "regime change." Let the oil pros do this pro bono, just for the betterment of Iraq, and we might actually believe him. Until then, give up hope of any real legitimacy for the Iraqi campaign. \_ Since they fit fine on just one line, there is no need to mask freerepublic URLs using http://csua.org's URL shortener.  2002/11/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26482 Activity:very high 11/7 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021108/80/de8zy.html Bush has learned well from Sharon. If there is anyone you don't like, don't bother with arrest, don't bother with a trial, just execute 'em from the air. A US citizen murdered, too. \_ Not murder. Proactive attack against terrorist elements. \_ Not murder. Assassination. Prohibited by Exec. Order, and therefore illegal. Arrest the CIA. \_ It isn't assassination unless you figure that every random fuck towel head with a bomb is a foreign leader. \_ http://dictionary.com says: assassination: a killing by treacherous violence. http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/eo12333.html#2.11 says: 2.11 Prohibition on Assassination. No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination. 2.12 Indirect Participation. No agency of the Intelligence Community shall participate in or request any person to undertake activities forbidden by this Order. Read carefully, tool: nowhere does it say "foreign leader." \_ US abolished slavery at the cost of a civil war. Sweden sat on its ass like a coward until someone else did the dirty work. Being humane entails knowing when to fight for what you believe in. \_ Be thankful the US isn't lining the roads with crosses like the Romans. They could, and I bet they would actually be successful in stopping attacks that way (as Romans were). \_ So has Genghis Khan. Yes, I am thankful that the US is not like Genghis Khan. \_ Romans are too close to home, eh? Had to come up with a big bad asian example, right? That the US occasionally fires rockets at cars loaded with dynamite (which I consider a good thing) does not change the fact that it has produced the most humane society the world has ever seen. \_ Have you ever been to The Netherlands? Sweden? Canada? \_ What was Sweden's stance on the Nazis again? \_ What was USA's stance on slavery again? Sweden merely maintained independence. \_ The US got rid of slavery at the cost of a civil war. US citizens lost lives trying to oust Hitler when it became obvious he was a threat. Sweden just sat on its collective ass and waited for Nazis to take over the world. Being humane is knowing when to fight for what you believe in. \_ Why did they ignore Stalin then hm? You know, it's just silly to say Hitler would really be able to "take over the world". At most, possibly some of the eastern european nations that Stalin ended up ruling for the next 50 years anyway. \_ If there wasn't a Western Front the Nazis would have taken out the Russians and then Britain was next. After that, the US would stand alone for freedom in the world against the Nazi controlled Euro/ Asian continent (as well as the oil in the middle east and the more valuable parts of Africa). \_ A Russian friend of mine said Russia has always won wars that others launched against it, and has always lost wars that it launched against others. \_ Your russian friend is wrong. Russia lost the war against the Golden Horde. -- russian \_ Yes, we can take that historical fluke as divine providence that it is fated that no one can invade and conquer Russia. Thanks. \_ The Civil War was over state's rights, not over slavery. \_ Wow... welcome to Oversimplification Of History 101. \_ Why did you erase my question? US sat back on the same haunches as Sweden while the nazis were sweeping through europe. We would have let england be taken before we did anything if it weren't for pearl harbor. we had business dealings with the nazis that couldn't be disturbed. \_ Uh oh.. *this* assertion definitely needs some URL backing. \_ major IBM contracts for Nazi Germany. \_ dont be a git. we didn't avoid war with the Nazis for IBM's sake. Duh. \_ and what did sweden contribute to the effort? \_ Those cool knives? Oh no wait that was the swiss, the Nazi collaborators. \_ That the Romans had a little civilization going does not change the fact that cruxifixing people is barbaric. Do not confuse "inspite of" and "because of". \_ You know, you would pull off that lecturing tone much better if you knew how to spell 'crucify.' \_ You know, you need to brush up your grammar a little. \_ Um.. to what grammar are you referring? --scotsman \_ "would have pulled" \------"still [christians] others were burned alive as living torches to light Nero's garden at his Golden House." ... that's a funny story but untrue ... probably some exaggeration of suetonius. why are you focusing on rome? look at the decree on megara or the melian dialog. that is more appropriate. well i suppose you can look at the destruction of corinth in 146 by L. Mummius: Cary \& Schullard describe the aftermath as follows: In other Greek towns they restored the rule of the wealthier classes, and they made Corinth safe against social revolution by razing it to the ground and selling its inhabitants into slavery.'' This was the hard edge to the vaunted {\it Pax Romana\/}. See also famous speech of calgacus in the Agricola: A rich enemy excites their cupidity; a poor one, their lust for power. East and West alike have failed to satisfy them. They are the only people on earth to whose covetousness both riches and poverty are equally tempting. To robbery, butchery and rapine, they give the lying name of 'government'; they create a desolation and call it peace. --psb \_ You're confused. You kill the enemy, you arrest criminals. They were the enemy. As far as one of them being a US citizen, I'm not shedding any tears since our insanely open borders make the concept of US citizenship almost entirely meaningless. \_ Especially when some politicians are trying to give residency to illegal immigrants in order to buy votes from certain ethnic groups. \_ The Republicans are guilty of 'excusing' illegal aliens and making them magically into citizens (1986) while the Democrats prefer to not bother with the citizenship thing and just have endless numbers of people come over so they can raise taxes on the citizenry in order to 'solve' a social problem they helped create. Fuck them both. \_ Reagan 's amnesty was a political compromise with the Dems. He later stated it was the biggest mistake of his Presidency. Unfortunately, today there are many RINOs in Congress beholden to business. \_ Saying, "I'm sorry" afterwards is too fucking late.  2002/10/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26293 Activity:high 10/23 March for peace on Saturday. This should be the biggest yet: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14353 Note this is just an announcement for those interested. If you don't support the purpose, don't go to the march. This is not a troll. \_ What's wrong with war on Iraq? Would you rather wait until they demonstrate their WMDs before doing anything about it? \_ They've already used them. And America shrugged. \_ 1) Everything, if all other means of detection and prevention have not been pursued (and they have not). 2) I would rather send in inspectors and disarm the bastards than indiscriminately bomb innocent Iraqi civilians. --erikred \_ 1) They have refused inspectors, or said they would allow only very limited inspection. How long would you wait for them to change their mind 2) War on iraq would not be undiscriminating bombing of civilians. Did you see the last gulf war? Some civilians were killed, but the primary damage was to the military targets. Unless you believed their claims that weapons factories were actually producing formula for infants... \_ I can lend a hand... http://www.masturbateforpeace.com  2002/10/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26165 Activity:very high 10/12 You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a target, but: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2322275.stm \_ "According to a government spokesman Mikko Norros, a foreign terrorist organisation is not believed to have been responsible for the bomb - rather a deranged individual or an organised crime group. " personaly, I believe him. they're finns. what motivation do they have to lie? as to pacifism, finland has mandatory military service for all men. no cookie. \_ more like swiss "armed neutrality" \_ well, I think it's more just "hey, let's not get fucked over by russia like all the other countries nearby" \_ *laugh* You're so naive. Yeah, the first time in history that the mob has used a suicide bomber. That makes a lot of sense. Duh, by definition anyone who blows themselves up in a mall is deranged so that's a meaningless statement as well. It was your standard PLO/Hamas style suicide bombing in a public shopping center. Just like the French trying to claim the tanker wasn't an act of terror, also. A five year old could see this govn't spokesman's statement is ridiculous. They haven't even collected all the body parts and he's already claiming it wasn't an act of middle-east style terror. Nonsense. \_ The person jumping to conclusion is the person who said: "You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a target, but ..." \_ This is a silly response. The motd isn't a public forum and I doubt the OP is an official government spokesman feeding propoganda to the public. You're ducking the issue. I stand by what I said before: they haven't even collected the body parts and know almost nothing about what happened when this mouthpiece puts out official word that it wasn't an act of middle eastern style terrorism, but was instead some garbage about the world's first suicidal mafia hit (on a mini mall, no less). For now, I'm willing to grant them benefit of the doubt on not releasing identifying details about the bomber beyond his age and gender, but they don't get that benefit forever. \_ i'll keep being naive and you keep being paranoid, and we'll see who has a better life. \_ This is why we need a regime change in Iraq. Terrorist attacks will continue while Saddam is in power. -G.W. Bush  2002/10/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26098 Activity:insanely high 10/4 how did John Walker Lindh even break the law, causing him now to be sentenced to 20 years in jail? what's illegal with joining the taliban, despite their unusual beliefs and practices? \_ I think this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we \_ I guess this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we calssified Al Qaida as an enemy to this country. The Taliban is assocated with Al Qaida, so we classified the Taliban as an enemy to this country. Now, it is illegal for a citizen to join an enemy to this country, so Lindh broke the law. \_ ex post facto \_ not so. he stayed there with them *after* 9/11 and *after* he knew american soldiers were there fighting against his terrorist pals. thanks. \_ Yeah because walking out of a fanatical camp in the middle of Afghanistan with no food, money, or support is the best thing to do. \_ 1) tough shit, 2) others managed to change sides or safely surrender all over the place, 3) tough shit \_ Who? Name one American citizen fighting with the Taliban who did so. They'd have shot his ass as a deserter. Lindh's going to jail because the Feds have shown his lawyers enough evidence to suggest he helped kill a CIA spook who was conducting "interrogations" in the POW camp, and his lawyers told him to take 20 over the chair. \_ Why must it be an American I name? As far as we know there was only 1 traitor there when Mike Spann was murdered. Did you have a point? Your cheesey 3rd grader quality attempt to redfine the debate by putting words in my mouth was beyond \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak Hebrew ridiculous. Frankly, this stupid prick is safer in a cell than on the street where someone is going to kill this punk. He'll suck some prison dick but he won't be dead which he should be. \_ Don't be a schmuck. You must name an American because JWL was an American and would've been shot had he tried to defect from the Taliban. Why he didn't ID himself as such when the Spann and the rest of the "interrogation" squad showed up is a mystery, but perhaps he didn't know the rest of the prisoners were going to riot. My point is that he's going to jail not for just being in the Taliban or being a "traitor." \_ Child, I don't *have* to but because you're so cute, I will anyway. Go look up the 4 guys that got picked up last week. 1 of them didn't like his new psycho jihadi friends and left. Jihad Johny didn't ID himself because he (in his mind) was talking to the enemy, ya know, the enemy, Americans. A mystery? What utter crap. How can you expect to be taken even halfway seriously spewing about how a bus sized hole in your line of 'reasoning' is simply a mystery while simultaneously making bogus claims about what I *have* to prove to you? Because you lost based on reality and now you lost on your new self-defined reality. Go home, read some newspapers, keep up with what's going on in the real world and you won't be forced to look like a jerkoff here. He was *LUCKY* to get only 20 years. It was a *VERY* generous offer. If he pulled that shit as a citizen of *any* other country on this planet, he'd be dead if he was lucky and never see the sun again if not. This is the only country that doesn't execute fucking traitors and other scum like JWL. \_ John Walker is an American citizen, and thus owes allegiance to this country (immigrants take the oath explicitly, he was born into it). By fighting against American troops, he committed treason. It's kind a scary anti-utopian word, but he can be tried for it nevertheless. Personally I think he got off easy. \_ treason is a scary anti-utopian word? say what? I agree that he got off easy. So did all the FBI & CIA traitors who sold us out to the soviets. Life in prison is way too easy. \_ *Any* participation in a foreign militia is grounds for loss of citizenship. Bush was soft. He should have had his citizenship revoked, then put in federal prison, and when his prison term was over, he should be deported. \_ the only exception is Israel. Lots of Americans serve in the Israeli military and wave the Israeli flag around. Who do you think they're loyal to? Frankly, I think anybody who served in ANY foreign military should be deported. Including all the Israelis. \_ Talk to your Reps about eliminating the possibility of dual citizenship and while you're at it see if they'll get someone to enforce the other weak immigration and citizenship laws. \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak Hebrew \_ yeah how do they get around the law to do that? that's always confused me. \_ Wasn't Israel to become the 51st state? j/k ;p \_ I thought that was Britain, although Blair denied it a few days ago. \_ Really? A recent episode of JAG talks about a jew in US marine who goes to join the Israeli military, and whether he should be treated as a traitor. I didn't watch the episode and didn't know the outcome. I just heard the trailer on the radio. \_ No, not really at all. They're making shit up because the average person doesn't know either way and accepts their anti-semitic lies as facts. \_ Please do not rely on TV drama to get your understanding of, well, anything. My work here is done. \_ You mean Westwing isn't real life? \_ flying tigers. \_ you mean the american pilots getting paid by uncle sam to fight for the chinese using american weapons, american ammo, lead by american commanders? those flying tigers? \_ You are full of crap: http://travel.state.gov/military_service.html \_ True, but the little fucker is still a traitor and should be shot. \_ Relevant quote: "Although a person's enlistment in the armed forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of U.S. law, it could subject him or her to Section 349(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] which provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer." So it looks like I just made the mistake that it's only officers that are automatic. If you're not an officer you have to be involved in hostilities against the US...like Lindh. \_ Jeez! Don't you know a non-commissioned officer is an enlisted man. You stupid Berkeley types who never understood the military or it's structure. So no. You made a big mistake. \_ At least I can format @ 80 columns \_ How pathetic and puny... \_ Not all enlisted people are NCOs. \_ Are you a dumbass? He said all NCOs are enlisted. Your statement is true, but is not a refutation of what he said, and is simply irrelevant. Your idiocy is pissing me off, go away. \_ On a related note, I heard that permanent residents here are allowed to serve in our military, and maybe even required to served during war time. How does that work with their citizenship elsewhere? \_ Who cares what their third world homes have to say about it? \_ But to whom are they supposed to be loyal? \_ if they were so loyal, why did they leave? \_ welfare for illegal aliens available here.  2002/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26051 Activity:nil 9/30 http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/iraq.congressmen Rep. Fonda, D-Hollywood goes to Iraq.  2002/9/28-29 [Recreation/Humor, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26039 Activity:moderate 9/28 Gives a whole new meaning to the concept of "being on the hotseat". http://csua.org/u/32b -story.news.yahoo.com -urld \_ THis story is about weapons grade uranium being smuggled through Turkey. Iraq borders on turkey. \_ Damn, do you mean... No, it can't be! Is that bastard Saddam trying to sneak all the uranium out of his country before the UN inspectors arrive? \_ It probably won't seem quite so funny when the *port* of Oakland goes up in a mushroom cloud.... \_ I hereby give you permission to say "I told you so" when this happens. I hereby also give you notice that I'm calling TIPS on your ass then, too, MotdTerrorist. \_ Wow you're really funny. It's always a good idea to make light of a serious situation. That way you impress your friends with your bravado, get a false sense of security, and get to feel really clever all at the same time! Wanna hook up? You're cute! \_ If it makes you happy to spout doom and gloom scenarios without providing some shred of evidence as to the feasibility of said scenarios, then the least you can do is expect people to take the piss out of you for doing so. And don't point to the 50 page Blair Witch Dossier as evidence unless you want to be made light of some more. \_ Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time! \_ Yeah 33 lbs of weapons grade uranium on it's way to...? No evidence of anything funny going on. Don't worry at all about that smoke smell if you can't see the fire. \_ Christ, are you the reactionary apple gravity guy? You really need to take a vacation or something.  2002/9/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26037 Activity:nil 9/28 I don't normally read the national review but this is food for thought if you ignore the obvious Clinton baiting aspect. The underlying premise is a real possibility for the future. http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-volokh092702.asp  2002/9/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26029 Activity:nil 9/27 http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n19/liev01_.html  2002/9/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26028 Activity:high 9/27 Al Gore can't decide which poll to pay attention to. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-15851566.htm \_ explain your comment, please. what conflict are you referring to? \_ All the way back he was always in favor of bombing Iraq, invading Iraq, and ousting SH. Back to 91. Even earlier this year he was saying Iraq was a big threat, etc, etc. Now he's done yet another self-reinvention and has decided the only way he can differentiate himself from his Dem opposition for the Dem'04 nomination is to come down against doing anything to/with/in Iraq. It's pretty obvious. \_ Where in his speech does he come down against doing anything to Iraq? He said we should finish off Al Qaeda first and then take out Iraq. \_ I won't pre-digest your food for you either. Try it again. \_ I hear that Strom Thurman no longer supports the bombing of Vietnam and Cambodia. Damn liberals, what is the world coming to? \_ he has fond memories of the stone age and realizes things were better then. \_ Here is the Gore speech: link:csua.org/u/327 What are you talking about?  2002/9/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26011 Activity:very high 9/25 Audio of quotes from '98 and '02 on Iraq http://csua.org/u/313 \_ Well, duh. Same could be said for the other side, dearie... What he said at the end (and was cut off in the sound bite) was more telling than the rest. It's all a game for the members of our government to ... get re-elected? More interesting than any of this is what's happening on cspan. think for yourself. \_ Care to back up 'for the other side' with quotes and evidence? Until then... \_ Okay, how 'bout Bush's turnaround on leases for oil rigs in FL while his brother's seeking reelection. hypocrisy runs deep all over washington. \_ You won't get it. You'll just get noise about it and then get deleted from the motd as usual. When they can't do intellectually honest debate they just censor. \_ We threatened to invade Iraq in 1998 until they agreed to abide by UN resolutions. Same as now. No story, sorry Dittohead. \_ Except of course they didn't and we played the fool by blowing smoke and doing nothing just like the rest of 1992-2000.  2002/9/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25992 Activity:kinda low 9/23 Pentagon has christened the upcoming Iraqi operation "Scorched Desert." \_ Like creme brulee? \_ Let's hope the Israelis don't make it operation "Glassed Desert." \_ before the Iraqis make it operation 'gassed desert' ? \_ I would call it "Operation Happy Fuzzy Bunny." Now who would be against that? \_ mabey the famous heavy-metal band "basket full of puppies" could write the CNN themes song for the war.(http://www.anthrax.com \_ I'm totally in favor of Op HFB. Imagine Heraldo Rivera 55 miles from the front doing his classic "we're under fire on the front!" routine while everyone around him goes about their business and tries to "Hi Mom!" the camera and he's going off about the dangers right there on the front of Op HFB. Great stuff.  2002/9/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25957 Activity:insanely high 9/19 Have any one actually read Bush's National Security Strategy? It looks like in the name of freedom and liberty, we are essentially going to destory any nation that has a remote chance of challenge US's dominating position in the world. \_ That is untrue. China and India have more potential to challenge the USA's hegemony but we aren't stopping them are we? Is your generalization brush a bit too thick? \_ That is sadly how the US is. The US needs war to survive, we need to constantly find targets or otherwise people who backed little bush will not be getting rich. Bush actually doesn't give a shit about national security, he doesn't even know what it is. What he knows is, he who throw money into his campaign, he much pay them back with real hard tax dollar. You can bet that if, and when we are done with Iraq, we will immediately move on to the next target (that in time we will surely identify, anyone remember China before 911?) Without war, little bush know he will be facing critizm from all over regarding his administration, when we are in war, the country is much more united, and that's his edge. He'll be in the office for 4 years and we'll have 4 years of war. You can be sure of that. If it's not iraq, it'll be someone else. Bush doesn't give a fuck, he needs war to survive. \_ the problem right now is there's no balance in the world. The US is too powerful for any nation to challenge directly, so we do whatever the hell we please, with no regard to consequences or human life or whatever. And then you have this war hungry bush come on board, bin-ladin gave him exactly what he wanted, a way to put america into 4 years of war. What Clinton built in 8 years, bush destoried in a few months. The good thing is he'll only be in office in 4 years and we all hope the damage is not too severe. The same cannot be said for the other countries. You'll bet that after the war, there will be 100 more bin-ladins in the world that will want to destory everything that is about America. And people just don't stop and think why? \_ URL? \_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf \_ I read it and I don't think it says what you think it says. It is reasonably balanced. -Bush Hating Leftist \_ Is this what your commie-berkeley education has help you conclude? Do you guys always just simply doubt everything America does to the world? I suppose you have a better alternative? Name one. Then go there and start accusing that government of the same thing. Better yet, look at history, find another #1 country that is as mostly benevolent as America. You will not. America - love it or leave it. Period. [formatd] \_ This kind of shit is unprecedented in our history, pal, at least as an open book policy. What ever happened to the republican rhetoric of "we can't serve as the world police force..." I guess rigging an election makes one more aware of actual "politics" \_ Speak softly and carry a big stick and right makes might \_ might makes right both seem to have disappeared as well. George the 2nd's speeches seem more like NBA/WWF pre-game/match bad mouthing and blustering than serious deliberations on policy. I guess anything more is too much to expect from someone who thought greeks were "grecians". \_ Here's someone who didn't read the new policy. Come back when you're grown up and stopped watching wrestling. \_ The policy is not to be the world's police force. The policy is to stomp the shit out of anyone that is working on ways to kill us. If they want to kill each other such as in Africa, that's ok. The new policy says nothing about that. Not our problem because we're still not the world's police force. \_ Given this, why hasn't America invaded Columbia? Their government is incapable of handling the drug trafficing trade. Surely ridding America of the death, violence, crime, and economic hardship caused by Columbian drugs would be more useful than invading a country that might have WMD that it could use. \_ We have invaded Columbia. Where have you been? It's mostly covert, though. --dim \_ Hmm. This doesn't bode well for any new invasions that are in the planning stage. \_ America != The Executive Branch. I love my country and the principles on which it was founded, but I do not love the activities of the current (or even most previous) administrations. \_ Which do you like? Are you a Jimmy Carter fan? \_ Truman, Ike, JFK and Reagan were okay. Before that, TR, Lincoln, Jefferson and Madison. \_ All these native american nations... hmm... prime example of american's "benevolence" And remember, we nuked 300k Japanese civilians for their suprise attack of Pearl Harbor which results in 3000+ mostly military casuaties. \_ Would you have preferred a ground invasion of Japan? \_ Ah my friend, how easily you forget the death march of bataan... \_ Japan raped and killed 300k in the city of Nanjing alone in one week or so. \_ Do you really believe the US gave a shit about what was happening to the Chinese? \_ This person votes. Scary. I left it, you have my permission to stay there. -John \_ Stay where you are. We'll get around to the rest of Europe eventually. You don't have to come back to be a part of the US. \_ This person votes. Sweet. So do I. --fully agree with person  2002/9/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25953 Activity:nil 9/19 Richard Butler on Iraq. Gotta love those Australians sometimes. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/18/1032054865409.html  2002/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25946 Activity:high 9/18 http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002431528,00.html The interesting part is not the threat to nuke Bagdad, but the part where Blair says "We can largely protect against that, do not press me on how, we can protect against that" in reference to Saddam nuking the oil fields or a nearby capital city. \_ space-based beam weapons? \_ Most likely the new improved Patriot missle defense. Much better than the one in the Gulf War that just managed to miss Scuds or break them up thus spreading shrapnel over a larger area. Really. Or maybe the beta version US laser anti-missle platform which Israel bought nearly sight unseen. \_ gee, I'm sure Sadaam would never think of delivering a nuke by some method other than a missile. -tom \_ are you for or against US military action in Iraq? \_ Ohmigod! Does the Prime Minister know about that? This could change EVERYTHING! \_ Yeah there are multiple ways to fuck shit up so let's not bother having a defense against any of them. Good call! \_ the statement was "we can largely protect against that", which is absurd. -tom \_ interestingly enough, Patriots didn't work well against Scuds because Scud guidance was so crappy, it was difficult to derive their trajectory from present speed and bearing. \_ by the time the scud got back to earth from its short journey into the atmosphere, it had lost enough mass that it was basically just a flying garbage can, hardly any danger at all. \_ Bullshit. Can you say desperate spin after the patriots totally failed after so much hype? \_ Pretty much. The Scuds are ballistic. Nice predictable trajectories. The GW Patriots were anti-aircraft shoved into an anti-missle mission. Failure ensues. \_ Maybe we should give the Iraqis better guidance systems via the Chinese or NKoreans so we'll have a better chance of shooting them down. ;-)  2002/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:25945 Activity:high 9/19 Any chance that a military coup happens here in the US? Nobody seems to worry things like this. \_ Citizen army of volunteers. Also, notice that there hasn't been a military coup in England for well over 300 years. \_ The money in this coutry already has both the government and the armed forces at their beck and call, so there's no need for a military coup. \_ None. That's why no one seems to worry about things like this. \_ What is being done here to prevent this altogether while other countries have to worry about such thing? All I know is that the US military is not supposed to talk about politics, but not talking about it doesn't mean they can't quietly have a view. \_ basically, we prevent it by giving the military everything they want. -tom \_ typical useless agenda driven reply. \_ snide uninformed counter troll. \_ None of those things. Correct, precise, accurate. \_ Random yermom double entendre. \_ Double entry on yermom? how...interesting. \_ DVDADO. \_ Dude. Is that even possible? \_ Modern and civil countries do not have to worry about such a thing. Most of western europe, the US, Canada, and Australia have no reason to fear a military coup. Compare those to the rest of the world such as Africa and Central America where coups are a relatively common occurence. Rule of law and civilian control of the military as well as functional electoral systems and a tradition of respect for civil authority keeps modern nations safe from their own militaries. \_ Read the 2nd Amendment. \_ right. you and your gun-nut friends are the "well regulated militia" the second amendment refers to. i'm not a proponent of gun control for other reasons, but the idea that the US milinary is afraid of a bunch of citizens armed with legal weaponery is laughable. the iraqi army is better armed than you and your local gun buddies, and we will soon see them get slaughtered--again. \_ Well regulated? It's all about fiber, son. \_ I'm a big 2nd amendment supporter but that's not what keeps western nations safe from their own militaries. You might note that the other western nations have very strict gun control laws compared to the US but no greater odds of a military coup. \_ What do you think happened in December of 2000? \_ What do you mean? The election?  2002/9/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25892 Activity:high 9/14 http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,351165,00.html Ritter says he has no clue what Iraq has or doesn't have. Just assumes western intelligence agencies would know. \_ The guy is nuts. \_ where does he say that? i didn't see it. \_ http://truthout.com/docs_02/07.25A.wrp.iraq.htm  2002/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25871 Activity:insanely high 9/13 http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/iraq/tenthings.html What you can do about the hopefully not COMPLETELY IMMINENT war on iraq. I admit that some of them are kind of naive and uneffective, but what else are you going to do? \_ You've probably seen the flyers but there will be a march in the city tomorrow afternoon. The global exchange website has a link to that tells the details. I won't make it and I'm curious what other stuff people know about. I've written my letters and called my reps. I'm looking for things outside of Berkeley. -- ulysses \_ You're going to thank your lucky stars you're a citizen of the most powerful nation ever to grace this planet; a nation so powerful, we no longer draft idealistic young idiots such as yourself to defend ourselves. We only send poor white trash and desperate minorities to defend the college kids now. Be glad you're part of the elite and never have to risk anything to keep freedom alive. You get to post URLs and mouth off without fear of government retribution. \_ How is Iraq threatening our freedom? Our freedom to have cheap oil? If the Saudis want defense, they can pay for it themselves they're not helping us anyways. Fuckers. \_ Uhm, where have you been? Let's assume the weapons inspectors got 100% of everything before leaving in 98. What are the \_ I am open to suggestions for more useful urls. odds Iraq hasn't started up new programs since then? Zero is a reasonable guess. Given they're working on WMD, it becomes a case of "when" we need to do something, not "should we". I don't give a flying figs fart about oil or the Saudis. \_ !given: produce the evidence. \_ Use some logic. It should be obvious they're still working on it. Why would they suddenly stop after the inspectors are gone? \_ Because the facilities were destroyed? \_ "Hey Georgie, watch me make a nuclear bomb out of rubble. Nuthin' up my sleeve... Presto!" \_ Nonsense. They're got plenty of cash, a decent military for the area even after getting beat on in 91 and the will to use it. don't want to sell to me a nice price, I'll go elsewhere. \_ Makes you wonder how man the Saudis have. They're far richer and they've shown they'll go splat for the cause. \_ you probably should give a fig about oil, everything in our daily life depends on it. there are a bunch of articles out there from the un weapons inspector who doubts iraq has the industrial capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. i also don't think if we bomb the fuck out of iraq, that a magical new american friendly regime will rise up out of the ashes - danh \_ Ritter? You mean the same guy who when he left was still reporting they hadn't gotten everything but 4 years later is now giving a clean bill of health? And hey let's ignore the post-Ritter UN Security Council's report that was sponsored by the Russians and intended to clear their buddy Iraq but only confirmed Ritter's you and those near you. And then actually do it anyways to make an example of questioning authority. The Mogols had terror down pat. The VV doesn't KNOW real terror. last official report that Iraq still has WMD and was continuing to work on them at the time. Ritter is playing some kind of sick game. He either lied then or he's lying now. Either way, his credibility is now zero. \_ I don't care about "protecting" oil either. I rather pay for it at the pump than through my taxes. If they don't want to sell to us at a nice price, we'll buy from Canada or Russia. If it costs more, we'll adapt. BFD. I don't want to send some teenagers to die so that I can drive as much as I want. \_ Oil prices have been falling for years. Plus, consumption of fuel will fall because the real price of the fuel appears at the pump rather than coming out of your paycheck twice a month. \_ It's not just cars, it's all motor vehicles. Transportation costs could shoot up making things cost more and cut down consumer spending which is keeping the US economy alive right now. \_ Oil prices have been falling for years. Plus, consumption of fuel will fall because the real price of the fuel appears at the pump rather than coming out of your paycheck twice a month. \_ I bet you really think that too... \_ that's a bunch of crap. i recently went to a panel where a group of hydrogen fuel cell industry leaders spoke about their businesses, and they are not all that far from the automotive market. why is 2015 such a crazy time to have the technology to market? this is good money, being spend on good research and develpement. \_ this is why one of the only *really* smart things the Bush administration has done is to put 1.5 Billion dollars into Hydrogen fuel cell reesearch, primarily for automotive aplications. why they didn't try to get more publicity for this genuinely smart move is beyoned me. \_ Because it's a kickback to his oil buddies http://csua.org/u/296 \_ that's a bunch of crap. i recently went to a panel where a group of hydrogen fuel cell industry leaders spoke about their businesses, and they are not all that far from the automotive market. why is 2015 such a crazy time to have the technology to market? this is good money, being spend on good research and develpement. \_ While at the same time, all attempts at increasing fuel efficiency standards are thrown down with bullshit arguments over "safety concerns". Efficiency is death to capitalism. \_ Because in 10 years, they'll discover an even spiffier technology, or prove the fuel cell is the wrong answer, and have to spend another 10 years thinking of a better way to do thing and by the way it's gonna cost the taxpayer another few billion. \_ Was the Roman Empire or the Mongolian Empire more powerful than the US? \_ Not even close. \_ Depends on what you define as "powerful." For world influence and economic domination, the US. For deference by neighbors, allies, and occupied nations, the Romans. For sheer terror and size of empire, the Mongols. \_ The US gets tremendous deference from the entire world. They just want us to make some noises via the UN first so they can feel like they still matter. If you read the village voice or listen to certain South Africans, the US is already the greatest threat to world peace so we've got it on the Mongols, too. Also, the Mongols fell apart almost instantly because they didn't have enough people to hold their land and they were a charisma based primitive leadership system, no concept of transition or government. \_ I meant deference as in defer to us or we will slaughter you and those near you. And then do it anyways to make an example of questioning authority. A Roman without escort could walk the Empire knowing that if he were hurt, all of the locals would die. The Mogols had terror down pat. The VV doesn't KNOW real terror. \_ How about the mafia? \_ What's "VV"? \_ A W with a split personality. \_ Mongols didn't fall apart instantly! Stop insulting us Mongols! We ruled Moscow for a few centuries. We ruled China, and we had the Mughal empire! \_ You fell back from Europe in a flash of historical time. Just poof. Gone with no long lasting changes on the locals. Sorry mongoloid boy but your people were good for nothing but a few hollywood films, a cliche or two and some Xena episodes. \_ Ungrateful unguns! If we didn't kick the Islamic terrorists from their behind, including the grand old daddy of terrorists the old man of the assassins, and severely damaged their vitality, those islamic sand people would be marching all over you, and putting your bad mamas in their harems. Not only that, we established trade routes all over central asia which helped spread trade and knowledge! \_ How about the British Empire at its peak around the 19th century or so? \_ What British Empires? Where is it? I don't see it. \_ Not now. At its zenith, the British Empire stretched over one-fourth of the earth's surface. \_ I would willing serve in the defense of America, but invading Iraq isn't about defending America. Its all about politics. A good war will help the Republicans in the upcoming elections and the establishment of a puppet regime in Iraq will allow US and British oil companies to gain access to cheap crude. These companies are big backers of the Pres. and will help him in his re-election bid. - !OP \_ The previous US-Iraq war clearly didn't help the Republicans when Bush Sr. lost to CliTton and had to let him finish the job. \_ That's not the point. It's whether the Republican leadership think it would. Remember Max Boot the republican bull dog of Daily Cal? He proclaimed 4 more years of George Bush right after the Gulf War. \_ Duh, anyone with a tenth of brain cell would've said that at the time since he was riding the high 80's in public polls. You're stretching. \_ Anyone with some brain cells would not put too much faith in polls in predicting elections some ways down the road. Not all our polticians have brain cells though. \_ So call Max Boot and the motd poster above and let them know how stupid they are to think that a high poll rating now will translate into votes later. I agree with you. \_ Max Boot is now working for a Republican think tank and his articles had appeared in the Foreign Affairs. \_ ok i'll bite, what's so idiotic about being against the upcoming iraq war? It's kind of late to rant right now, maybe when I get some sleep. \_ Give it a rest. He was posting useful information for folks like me, not trying to start debate. \_ If you really *needed* that URL then you're not going to be doing anything useful. There was nothing useful there. \_ I am open to suggestions for more useful urls. \_ Useful for what?  2002/9/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25861 Activity:very high 9/12 bush's gonna' do it. he's really gonna' do it. \_ You just figured this out? \_ Um, after this morning, he might have the UN on board. \_ What happened this morning? \_ don't think anyone dare to cast the veto. \_ Spain and Kuwait are on board but that's not being reported. \_ Didn't Russia say last week that they're going to cast the veto? \_ No, they just want more IMF concessions. \_ After the case Bush presented, if the UN doesn't do anything, it should be disbanded. Or at least we should leave it. If it passes resolutions it has no intention of enforcing, it's just a posturing money-pit. Full text of Bush's address: enforcing, it's just a posturing money-pit. Full text of \_ George the 2nd's case is very one sided. He forgets that the Iraq "problem" of the 1990s could have been avoided had George the 1st order the taking of Baghdad. He's probably got other motives too: 1. Elections are coming up and there is nothing like a good war to get Bush's address: link:www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/4060014.htm \_ George the 2nd's case is very one sided. He forgets that the Iraq "problem" of the 1990s could have been avoided campaign. I hope Russia and some of the EU nations hold thier ground and veto this preposterous attack on Iraq. George is also brushing over the risks involved. Iraq will become YA GI grave yard like Korea and Vietnam. had George the 1st order the taking of Baghdad. He's probably got other motives too: 1. Elections are coming another country where your ideas can get you arrested and shot w/o trial. America - love it or leave it. Period. \_ Under the current administration America is turing into Nazi Germany (we already got something like the Gestapo with the Dept. of Homeland Security). up and there is nothing like a good war to get republicans elected 2. A puppet regieme in Iraq that supplies US oil companies with cheap crude will really help out his backers in the oil industry thus ensuring that he has a large amount of money for his re-election campaign. George is also brushing over the risks involved. Iraq will become YA GI grave yard like Korea and Vietnam. \_ If we lose enough troops that might shock the American public into remembering that a protracted ground war isn't fun and games, no matter how technologically advanced we are. \_ How remarkably ignorant. The reason the elder Bush didn't take out Saddam Hussein was fear in the administration and country that the coalition would fall apart (sound familiar?). As far as a potential quagmire goes, the same prediction was made about Afghanistan. \_ There is no armed "Northern Alliance" for the US to have do the hard work for them. And the US has led the UN use of sanctions against Iraq which is a very sore point among Iraqis. \_ The war between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban can be likened to the battle between David and Golliath...and David's big bad brother, the B-52. \_ Saddam's learned that lesson already. Unless the US starts bombing cities, B52s will be a lot less effective as will most airpower. \_ hahahahahaha...We've already shown we can take out their anti-air whenever we like. And bombs dropped from the sky still blow up things on the ground. In fact, they're even more precise now than they were 11 years ago. \_ Sigh. Not AA, not tanks, not trucks, not tanker trucks. Individuals. Think Hui, think Saigon. \_ If you think Iraq is like Vietnam (culture, geography, etc.) you need to get a grip. \_ YES! American People need more "Living Space." \_ Don't you dare compare America to Nazi Germany. Please move to another country where your ideas can get you arrested and shot w/o trial. America - love it or leave it. Period. \_ America - love it or change it. Troll. \_ Under the current administration America is turing into Nazi Germany (we already got something like the Gestapo with the Dept. of Homeland Security). \_ Have you considered working for John Ashcroft? \_ Or maybe a burning tire necklace. \_ Loved her. Left her. Now she does tricks on San Pablo. \_ Woohoo! That's America too now! You es eh! You es eh! \_ Ridiculous child, you know nothing about oppression. \_ But thanks to the changed America, I'll know more about it. And knowing is half the battle. \_ Bombing Red Cross warehouses is the other half.  2002/9/6 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25784 Activity:high 9/5 why attacking iraq is a bad idea: http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020905-24231615.htm \_ What is the alternative? In the very near future an Islamic state not aligned to the West will go nuclear - what then? Evidence has not been made public, it seems prudent to wait \_ What is the alternative? In the very near future Iraq will go nuclear - what then? Evidence has not been made public, all of this rhetoric is taking place in a vacuum of information. It seems prudent to wait until that time before engaging in conjecture. One would think with all of the uproar about the human suffering caused by the sanctions, one would want Saddam (along with the sanctions) to go. Of course, there is the very real possibility that we are still divying up the spoils of the Cold War. \_ they *will* go nuclear. the question is do they have the *will* to use it. \_ Whether they have the will or not, having a nuke will give them more bargaining power (e.g. "If you attack us, we'll nuke Israel") \_ So what if Iraq go nuclear? We can invade a country just because he might has nuke sometimes later? Remember, we are the one who used nuke against civilian target in the history of mankind.  2002/8/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25723 Activity:high 8/28 Why must we fight the Iraqi's head on? Why can't we use other means like assassination? \_ I've always wondered if the gwbush administration has a bunch of crack smoking linguists on their staff, what the heck is a regime change? has their ever been a "regime change" in history before? are they still saying "homicide bombers"? - danh \_ That's 'cunning linguists' to you, bud. -John \_ Cause we are not very good at assassination, but we are really good at bombing the shit out of bad mamas. \_ And we're bad at combining the two. Reagan and Libya (Khadafi), GB1 and Iraq (Hussain), and Clinton and Afghanistan (Bin Laden). The problem is lack of decent ground-based intelligence. Can't hit them if you can't find them. \_ Libya was fine. They were pretty much in their place after that. We never intended to kill Momar, just scare the shit out of him which I think the bomb in his backyard tennis court accomplished that just fine. GB1 fucked up by not finishing the job the first time but that's not at all the same as pulling a Castro a la Kennedy. Both Clinton and GB2 screwed up the Bin Laden/Afghanistan thing, true, but both were afraid of the anti-war body-bag counting left in the media who love to see dead American soldiers on film. \_ Wrong. Reagan aimed for the palace and Khadafi wasn't in it at the time. Killing wives and kids doesn't count. \_ Ah, but you'd lose huge amounts of pork for the defense contractors who've been hit hard by the end of the cold war. Libya funded activities after that (see Lockerbie bombing) Hussain was a "high-level target of opportunity" during the Gulf War. They could never track him down. \_ Nonsense. Find any semi-respectable reference that says my buddy Momar was a direct target. They knew where Saddam was because Wolf Blitzer was reporting his movements from his hotel room. GW1 had specifically stated we are not targetting him personally. Thanks. \_ are you implying that the multi-million pound allocation to the British intel is better than the multi-billion dollar allocation to the CIA? \_ Hell yeah. They have James Bond! \_ Yep. The USA relies too much on technology and bureaucracy, not enough on human intel. August's wargames proved that an unsophisticated approach to communication and basic slight of hand can devastate the tech-laden, middle-management bloated American military machine. The whole missle shield crap? Spend a couple of billion bribing the tech folks on the other side to sabotage their country's efforts or buying all of the "loose" nuclear material. Cheaper and easier. \_ Ah, but you'd lose huge amounts of pork for defense contractors who've been hit hard by the end the cold war. All those Sun buildings on the bayshore frontage road in Palo Alto near Charleston used to be Lockheed and Loral. \_ You make it sound so simple. Just bribe everyone on the other side. My God! Why didn't anyone else ever think of that? Oh wait, they did. Those people are all dead or in Siberia now and hey guess what? Not everyone is bribable. Glad you're here to generate these great national security plans. Why are you being wasted here on the motd when you could be in some bunker on the east coast coming up with this great stuff? \_ Everyone is bribable. It's just a matter of what you bribe them with. It's the CIA, NSA, and the folks in charge who don't trust bribery. And you don't bribe everyone, you bribe the right people.  2002/8/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25491 Activity:very high 8/3 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13710 We're all doomed. - danh \_ http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/8/1/142827/1669 Unlike the alternet drivel, kur5hin's article acknowledges the actual real history of what was going on at the time. actual real history of what was going on at the time and possibly what has happened since the inspectors got kicked out years ago. \_ Here's the Big Lie in the article, "According to Scott Ritter, who spent seven years in Iraq with the UNSCOM weapons inspection teams performing detailed investigations into Iraq's weapons program, no such capability exists". What they fail to mention is that *4 YEARS* ago Ritter and all other inspectors were kicked out of the country \_ the article mentions that a number of times. \_ No. It doesn't. Not once. Quote it. At best it says the year he left and doesn't say it was because they were kicked out. Care to try again? There are numerous other lies in the article but this was the most flagrant. The article is crap and a quick read of any real news source from the net reporting on it would tell you that. It's commonly known history which the article denies by failing to acknowledge. You can't change reality by simply willing to be different. \_ "Ritter himself and no weapons inspection team has set foot in Iraq since 1998." Back to English 1a for you. \_ Yes this is the part of English 1A where you missed the context around that one sentence which makes it *painfully* clear that they're trying to claim he left because there was nothing left to find, not because they were kicked out. I was waiting for you to stick your foot in your mouth on that line. Go read the article without extracting sub-pieces and twisting them to suit yourself. Also, this one line is still not "a number of times" as you claimed and again, does not say they were kicked out. English 1A indeed. after wasting 7 years playing hide and seek (and losing) with the Iraqi military/government. Not only can a *lot* happen in 4 years but the odds they found and destroyed all the Iraqi WMD in the previous 7 years is flat out zero. This story is crap. For the record, (like Scott Ritter), I voted for Bush and I'm highly disappointed with the way Bush has handled _all_ of the corporate responsibilities mess but the real problem with Iraq was Bush Sr. playing global power balance politics the first time not with his son cleaning up the mess later. Clinton should have done this 4 years ago when the inspectors got kicked out and since he didn't, the next guy in line should do it no matter what his party. \_ you're wasting your time in CS, your calling is talk radio. \_ *laugh* Welcome to the motd, the home of personal attack. If the best you can do is personally insult someone then don't bother wasting disk space. \_ The burden of proof on someone who wants his country to invade another country and cause the death of many thousands of people is on the invader, not the peacelover. Can you give any evidence that Iraq does have WMD, other than overheated Bush rhetoric? \_ I love the MOTD! - danh  2002/7/29 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25437 Activity:high 7/29 All my favorite PC gamer news sites are dead. I'm down to gamespot which is nothing more than advertising and screenshots. What are the rest of you reading? Thanks for any URLs. \_ whatever happened to http://gamers.com? \_ dead dead dead \_ how about http://ign.com? \_ I just don't know which is why I'm asking. All PC gamer news URLs appreciated. --OP \_ http://shacknews.com, http://evilavatar.com -blojob  2002/7/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25295 Activity:nil 7/6 Tuskegee Airmen leader Davis dies http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/711661/posts i disagree with you. \_ Indeed.  2002/6/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25242 Activity:very high 6/28 Cheney takes over government! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62584-2002Jun28.html \_ It's only the second time that the 25th Amendment is invoked, and in both times it's because the President of the United States of America has his anus poked. \_ When was the other time? Carter getting his hemrhoids(sp) removed? \_ "The only other time Section 3 was invoked was July 13, 1985, when President Reagan underwent surgery for colon cancer." http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020628/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_medical \_ "Bush said he decided to transfer powers to Cheney out of extra caution because the nation is at war." One last time... did Congress actually declare war? -geordan \_ you know the answer. why don't you count how many times the bush administration has violated the constitution and tell us. \_ I feel so violated. -- the Constitution \_ I believe that FDR was the last president to actually request a declaration of war and get it.. \_ Yawn... here come the lawyers! Yes, sure, 'war' has a specific legal meaning in this country which requires, oh fuck it. You know all this. Fucking motd. So pedantic in a pathetic attempt to score some 'points' on some mythical scoreboard somewhere. \_ How does Bush violate the Constitution by just saying that we are a nation at war? \_ Only Congress has the power to declare war. The terrorism thing is a MEOW (Moral Equivalent Of War) type war. Like the "war" on drugs. \_ And the war on desert storms. \_ And the Korean and Vietnam wars? \_ Oh please, both you and Mr. Mythical Scoreboard up there. I asked if Congress actually declared war. Suddenly people are pulling "Geordan said that Bush is violating the Constitution" out of their ass. And I don't know about any "mythical scoreboard" you're referring to. Get a life, or at least sign your name. -geordan  2002/6/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25200 Activity:nil 6/25 Saudi Arabia working hard on bringing peace to the middle east. Not. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716552689  2002/6/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25127 Activity:high 6/17 The international war crimes court's first case: http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/mags/post/news1.htm \_ I thought the ICC was prosecuting Milosevic right now. \_ They are.  2002/5/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24858 Activity:nil 83%like:24856 5/17 "Take it to the Bridge to Stop the War" - May 25th in SF www.takeittothebridge.org N o more business as usual as the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the planet. The All People's Coalition to Stop US Terror and Occupation is calling for a peaceful rally at Crissy Field and a march on the Golden Gate Bridge on Saturday, May 25, 2002 The anti-war movement must raise the stakes in challenging the U.S. government to stop its attacks on the peoples of the world under the \_ Maybe you could hijack a commercial airliner and fly it into the bridge! so-called 'war on terrorism.' The Golden Gate Bridge is a symbol of the US known throughout the world and a massive march of people across this bridge will send a message to the international community that people right here are calling for no more business as usual while the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the planet. Planning Events Convergence @ Fellowship Hall of Humanity, 390 27th St. Oakland (between Broadway & Telegraph) Saturday 5/11 & 5/18: Planning meetings, 2-5pm Thursday 5/23: Banner and placard painting, 3-11pm Thursday 5/23: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 6-9pm Friday 5/24: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 3-6pm Please Join Us! www.takeitothebridge.org  2002/5/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24856 Activity:insanely high 83%like:24858 5/17 "Take it to the Bridge to Stop the War" - May 25th in SF www.takeittothebridge.org N o more business as usual as the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the planet. The All People's Coalition to Stop US Terror and Occupation is calling for a peaceful rally at Crissy Field and a march on the Golden Gate Bridge on Saturday, May 25, 2002 The anti-war movement must raise the stakes in challenging the U.S. government to stop its attacks on the peoples of the world under the so-called 'war on terrorism.' The Golden Gate Bridge is a symbol of the US known throughout the world and a massive march of people across this bridge will send a message to the international community that people right here are calling for no more business as usual while the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the planet. Planning Events Convergence @ Fellowship Hall of Humanity, 390 27th St. Oakland (between Broadway & Telegraph) Saturday 5/11 & 5/18: Planning meetings, 2-5pm Thursday 5/23: Banner and placard painting, 3-11pm Thursday 5/23: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 6-9pm Friday 5/24: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 3-6pm Please Join Us! www.takeitothebridge.org \_ I hate to remind these pacifists that the other side struck first and killed a few thousand civilians. And they won't stop if we say we're sorry. \_ Is this for real? This website does not work.  2002/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24781 Activity:very high 5/9 "Why Don't I Care About the Palestinians?" http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/680667/posts "The Closed Circle: An Interpretation of the Arabs" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1566634407/customer- reviews/ref=as_pt/103-2659247-3789407 \_ hey free republic guy, that article was even dumber than the usual crap you link to in the motd, are you ok? sign your name someday, we'll make you meatloaf and cheer you up. - danh \_ Defend your point. \_ Dan doesn't need to defend his point. He's a leftist. That just makes him magically right when he says you're dumb. I read the article expecting some ridiculous freeper rant but it actually makes sense. The arab world has produced nothing of value economically, culturally, or in any other way in a few hundred years. The palestinians have the double curse of being under UN run 'camps' and being hated by their 'brother' arabs for 50+ years who use them as a pawn against Israel. But Dan says freeper = bad, thus it must be so. \_ I dunno: I'd say we value the oil that all the Arabs produce quite a bit. \_ Uh the arabs didn't produce the oil in the sense of doing anything. They sit on it and europeans and Americans come in and do everything and pay them some money for access. This is hardly a huge cultural or economic achievement to be proud of. Anyway, their heyday is over. Saudi Arabia's infrastructure was never really built up properly during their big time and now they're fucked. When the oil runs out or we switch to other fuels over the next 30 years, then what? Back to eating sand and reading the Koran and hating those evil Americans and Europeans who 'epxloited' them. \_ do i get free food if i post a link to a dumb editorial also? -!op \_ This is only worth a "see the above reply about Dan" \_ http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp  2002/4/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24478 Activity:nil 61%like:24424 4/18 "I do believe Ariel Sharon is a man of peace," Bush says. War is Peace. \_ Yeah yeah and they gave Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize. Whatever. \_ Ignorance is Strength.  2002/4/16 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24451 Activity:very high 4/15 The '67 war in Reader's Digest format. http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/14/me101.tuchman.1967/index.html \_ What does "in Reader's Digest format" mean? Thx. \_ The Reader's Digest is a print publication that gives the short version of printed materials. All it means is this isn't a lengthy or detailed article, just an outline of events. \_ How did Israelis manage to lose only 600 ir 700 people while the Arabs lost 25000? \_ How did the US/allies lose ~250 people in the Gulf War and the Iraqi army lost, uh, hundreds of thousands? More? Uncountable. \_ Because we had God(tm) on our side! \_ Yeah, but in 1967 there were no laser guided bombs and stuff. \_ True but it's sort of like this: when you know the enemy is sitting on your border all bunched up and you pre-emptively attack and wipe out their airforce on day one, the rest are free kills with no air cover. It's not like unguided or non-laser guided bombs can't or don't kill anyone, they're just not as accurate. You're still dead if it hits the other side of the tank. \_ Sounds like what the Japanese wanted to do during Pearl Harbor. \_ This is what happened in Pearl Harbor and in the Philipines. \_ except that the US wasn't massing troops to attack the Japanese. \_ Yes but the principle is the same. If the enemy is bunched together (as the pacific fleet was at Pearl Harbor or MacArthur's airforce was in the Philippines) it is possible to inflict heavy losses while sustaining minimal losses yourself.  2002/3/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24239 Activity:insanely high 3/26 With regards to reparations, anyone who receives should be stripped of citizenship and forced to return to the country of most likely origin. These people have benefitted from coming here, despite the trials of their ancestors. If they take the money then they need to go back where they would've been as a condition. --dim \_ i learned everything i know about african history from the iron maiden album "number of the beast," so i disagree. \_ Did we send those Japenese-Americans who were paid reparations back to Japan? \_ The legal aspects of this case are vastly different. The reparations was compensation for violation of their 3rd amendment rights. These people were FULL CITIZENS at the time thier constitutional rights were abriged. They had a legitmate legal claim to be compensated for illegal search and seizure of thier property and possessions without due process. In the case of those asking for reparations for slavery, the plantifs have no case since they were not guarenteed any rights until the passage of the 13th amendment. (By the 3/5ths compromise slaves counted as people for census purposes but were not protected under the bill of rights). The reparations for slavery have already been paid, in the lives of the men and women who fought and died in the civil war, in the passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments and in the end of segreation. That the original intent of the founders (all men are created equal) is present in modern america and is as prevasive nowhere else in the world should be enough for anyone of any race. A handout cheapens and renders impotent the Freedom and Liberty that has been gained and defended. - !OP \_ I'm undecided on the issue of reparations, but it's clearly ridiculous to claim that slaves have no right to reparations because slavery was legal at the time. Their claim is about moral rights. -tom \_ Moral rights? Property has no moral rights, no rights period. period. Yes slavery was a terrible thing, but it was positive for any of those inititally brought over... though you raise an interesting point... I'd be curious to see the statistics comparing the percentage of people killed in, or travelling to, the US, vs. the percentage killed in Africa during a comparable time frame. And it is only arguably positive for any ancestors when you consider the conditions that most legal when it happened. They have no claim to compensation because the there was no crime committed. I think that these people should get on with thier lives instead of sitting around pretending to be perpetual victims and childern of slaves. You are what you believe yourself to be, if you think that you are a victim, you will be. \_ There's no claim against a slave owner, who was within the law. There may be a claim against the government for enacting immoral laws. (The fact that the government says it's legal doesn't absolve it of its own moral responsibility). -tom \_ Legal precident is that the just compensation of the enactment of a immoral law is to repeal the law in question. As the laws in question have been repealed, there is no basis for this suit. \_ That's overly simplistic. It's not only that the law was immoral, it's that it caused damage, and a claim for damages certainly could have merit. A claim for damage 150 years after the fact, perhaps not. -tom \_ [ comment about holocaust reparations being paided dispite the holocaust being legal at the time time inadvertently deleted, sorry ] \_ Reparations paid by eurpoeans to other eurpoeans, is not sufficient legal precident in the US. I am talking about crimes commited in territory where the Consitution is valid. \_ Uhm, where does it say its a 3rd amendment issue? \_ Internment was a 3rd amendment issue. JAs had a legal claim. Slaves cannot make any legal claim under the law as it existed when they were wronged. \_ I misread the indenting. Nevermind. Makes sense. \_ maybe. but that was different, it was wartime. wartime rules are different than peacetime rules. \_ yeah, fucking people over because it's wartime is somehow a more outright offense then doing it peacetime. whatever. \_ Yes, at least there was some rationale in WWII, however cooked up, for locking up American citizens because they were of Japanese ancestry. --Jon and not the euro-boat-people. Think about if the same things were committed today and you'll see some of the flaws in your logic. \_ There wasn't any rationale in any other cases? I'm assuming that dim's ignorant original comment was in regards to slavery? Are you trying to say that there weren't countless "scientists" and philos- ophers making justifications for why it was ok to enslave brown people all around the globe? - rory \_ Excuse me, but I think that if you think about it you will find my comment enlightening. Has slavery helped or hurt the people in question? --dim \_ I have thought about it, and I never said your post wasn't enlightening... It is enlightening of the fact that you are ignorant and/or racist. Are you really trying to argue that slavery has had a net positive effect on Africans brought to America? - rory \_ It certainly was a net positive for their descendants (they live in a prosperous society vs whatever african shithole they originally came from), and it may have been a net positive for some of them (in a sense that they would have been executed as POWs in some tribal war otherwise, or perhaps died of malaria). \_ wow when did david horowitz get a CSUA account? - danh \_ It's a net negative - hundreds of years of slavery, crappy lives up till the the Civil Rights movement. And it is the black people themselves who stood up, fought for their rights, and made better lives for themselves. Incredible to see rightwing fuckheads talking out of the their arses and trying to give credit to the slave traders for what is good in the lives of today's African Americans. \_ Excuse me but the civil rights movement was a Republican agenda item. You still have sheet/hood wearing ex-KKK members in Congress right *now*. Thanks for adding your biased agenda driven bit of weak historical revisionism to the motd. \_ Yup, Abraham Lincoln was black. \_ That Abe was a good man doesn't negate the fact that it was a net negative. As for standing up for themselves, I am referring to the Civil Rights movement, not during the Civil War period. \_ Oops, sorry. \_ Are you kidding me?? It certainly *wasn't* positive for any of those inititally brought over... though you raise an interesting point... I'd be curious to see the statistics comparing the percentage of people killed in, or travelling to, the US, vs. the percentage killed in Africa during a comparable time frame. And it is only arguably positive for any ancestors when you consider the conditions that most blacks were living in for the larger part of the last century and a half... and the fact that I'm sure that almost all brought over were perfectly content, and that most tribal warfare was caused by colonizing countries anyway. \_ The evil Westerners made the poor africans fight each other? What, they have no free will? Do you have a source on this last point? People often forget that 'people of color' can be just as nasty as the blackest (whitest?) western imperialist pig-dog. \_ This is always the stupidest argument put forth. \_ People also often forget that European countries. If you disagree, feel free to go home. before colonization, and subsequent "development" by former colonizers, Africa did not consist of formal nation-states at all, but rather loose tribal nations. These coexisted in relative peace (compared to how things are now). Now you tell me what all this "tribal warfare" is about... - rory (Hint: details of the arbitrary borders imposed on the continent, and who gets to be the recipient of all the western development money.) \_ Talk to the British and their Euro allies about the fucked up borders created in Africa to intentionally cause chaos and worsen tribal warfare. This was not an American action. We were a bunch of total world nobodies when this all went down. The historical revisionism on the motd is sickening. If you can't make a point without the outright *lying* then you don't have a point and should go away and shut the fuck up. Thank you. \_ This whole subthread is pointless. That US is better than African nations is besides the point. US is also better than all the European and Asian countries. If you disagree, feel free to go home. \_ That argument assumes the slavers knew that the slaves would be better off in the new world. Since tens of thousands died enroute and tens of thousands died at the hands of their owners, this would be a very poor point to make. \_ We have benefited from them being here too. Should we therefore go back to wherever we came from? \_ Of course we have. That is why we are paying them. Then they need to leave. --dim \_ You shell out my $9m and I'm outta here! Be glad to go! \_ To, say, Nigeria? Doubt it. \_ have you any idea what$9m can buy in NIgeria??? \_ I'm off to the slums of eastern europe where my peoples came from... *with* my $9m bucks! Gladly. As soon as that money clears I'm soooo out of here. \_ No, I think dim should go back to where s/he came from, but dim's money stays here. That's more fair. \_ I totally agree that reparations are impractical when both the criminals and the victims are long dead. In the case of Japanese-American internees, it made some sense since the the reparations were paid to actual victims. Having said that, it's kind of funny when you see people so ready to draw a line between themselves and the crimes committed by their ancestors, and in the very next breadth, they want to send other people "home" because these people's ancestors came later then their ancestors, seemingly saying that they have more right to be here simply because their ancestors came earlier. \_ I only want to send the people home who want the money, not all of the "victims". Capiche? --dim \_ First their "home" is here. Second, then those who "benefited", the perpetrators/benefited should leave unless they pay. but you can argue that is all of us in some way, even those who just arrived yesterday. However you a very confused if you argue that their descendants are better off. You are mixing up your idea "of going home" with reparations. You are missing the big picture. If their ancestors were not exploited and perhaps let to live/work/immigrate freely they may have been the ones running the country today \_ hahahhahahahhah! yeah right! \_ michael jordan, oprah and not the euro-boat-people. In any case, you cannot put a condition onto people because Americans are free to live where they want to. Think about if the same things were committed today and you'll see some of the flaws in your logic. It does not follow. They are not related. That said, I agree reparations are not going to work. The only thing possibly more un-feasible is your plan! \_ thank you... \_ Even if both parties were alive, the claim would be on a poor legal footing. They're seeking reparations for something that was legal at the time. I suspect that such reparations would be deemed unconstitutional on an ex-post-facto basis. \_ Doesn't matter if it was "legal at the time". \_ Of course it does, duh. Go look up the "ex post facto" concept. Jesus Christ some people around here are so dumb. \_ You can argue it but ex post facto does not matter \_ It was legal to keep innocent men behind bars but after they are freed, they still sue. \_ WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN????!!??!??? \_ I FEEL YOUR PAIN! I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN! I DID NOT INHALE! IT WAS NOT AN ASPIRIN FACTORY! \_ CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!? \_ IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD!  2002/3/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24121 Activity:insanely high 3/15 US aid paltry: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1034243 "Not only is the United States the stingiest of all rich-country aid donors (spending only 0.1% of its national income on foreign aid, compared with the European average of 0.3%), its aid is particularly inefficient." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/15/international/15PREX.html "President Bush today proposed a three- year,$5 billion increase in American foreign aid to poor nations that support human rights, adhere to strong systems of law and have open markets." \_ Whelp! That's that! Our TAX PAYER FUNDED AID is being wasted so we should just stop bothering and end all aid programs. Thanks for the link. \_ Get a f'ing clue. Who exactly footed the bill for all UN excursions around the world the past two decades? Who stations the 5th Fleet to guard the Saudi Arabian oil predominantly used by Europe? The US has been the de facto national defense of Europe the past 5 decades. \_ Stationing troops in the Middle East for the benefit \_ So in the glofified world of political virtue you live name me one country that would want us to leave. And then of (primarily) American owned oil companies can't be called foreign aid, by any stretch of the word or idea. Most people would consider it thinly veiled imperialism. \_ You're right. Let's pull out and let the whole area fall to shit and see exactly how this had no benefit to Europe who gets the bulk of their energy from the Middle East. It's funny how if we go somewhere it's imperialism and we're bad and if we don't then we're isolationist and we're bad. \_ Did Europe clamor for the US to come to the aid of Kuwait? Your knowledge is history is very rudimentary. Kuwait? The only people who cared were the Texas oil boys and their puppets in Kuwait. If you don't think American foreign and domestic policy is in the service of Big Oil, you should at least consider it. \_ how does middle eastern oil help texas? as an alaskan, i can tell you that poeple up there are more against our dependence on middle eastern oil than anyone. alsaska has a negative tax because of *alaskan* oil riches, not oil company profits in general. i don't see why texas would be any different. \_ you do know we get more oil from the US and Canada than we do from the middle east don't you? \_ Not Texans so much as Exxon, Mobile, Texaco, and Chevron executives and shareholders. \_ So in the glofified world of political virtue you live name me one country that would want us to leave. And then ask yourself why you don't live there? \_ South Korea. And I did. \_ South Korea wants the American military out of the DMZ? You're stupid and a liar. \_ He answered your inane question and you call him stupid and a liar. You are a dolt. \_ And what a complete disaster US involvement in South Korea has been. Great point! \_ the problem is not with the hard core figures. It has to do with perception and marketing. US should save that money and spend it on marketing (setup proxy radio+TV stations) which portrays that we're not all that greedy and evil. And it should do that in Muslim countries ASAP. \_ Why? Why do you care what "The Arab Street" thinks? That's not who the terrorists are. \_ Sympathy lends legitimacy.
 2002/3/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24038 Activity:very high 3/6 Recently it seems that a lot of wackos (e.g. Pat Robertson) have been bashing Muslims as violent extremists while other people defend Islam as a peace-loving religion. Obviously I don't agree with Pat Robertson, but if Islam is a peace loving religion where does the idea of "holy war" come from? Do only some sects believe in "holy war" or is it part of the mainstream Islamic beliefs and if so how can Islam be peace loving? Thanks \_ You've answered your own question. I suggest you take your personl dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the personal dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the same questions you ask the motd. The answer is self evident. \_ There are many interpretations of the Koran. There are extremists for any religion; it all depends on how one was the Crusade. \_ Crusades. There were a few. interprets it. "Holy War" is hardly unique to Islam. There was [sic. were] the Crusade. \_ Crusades. There were six (plus some other forays). \_ weren't the Crusades a response to the "JIHADS" and bloody conquering all the followers of Mohammed did? \_ Not really. The Crusaders were conquering the people of the Near East and Middle East to "reclaim" the Holy Land for the RCC. Muslims happen to be living on that land. Gold, treasure, goods, and glory. \_ duh, they had to reclaim it because the muslims attacked and conquered the jewish settlements due to mohammeds teaching and their their koran. It's okay to claim with violence but not okay to take it back with war? i don't understand. \_ they conquered all the up to Spain with violent wars. and killed those who wouldn't convert, this was before the crusades by muslims. \_ jihad ("holy war") means a war against the ones primal nature. To wage a successful jihad one must turn ones aggressive nature inward and destroy the ego. The militants have grossly misinterpreted it. If you want a more indepth understanding Joseph Campbell has written and spoken about this. \_ Whether they misinterpreted it or not, they're now living it and have been killing innocent people in it's name for a few decades in modern times and earlier if you want to mix n match historical periods. Murder by any other name is still murder. Do you think Joseph Campbell would like to go to Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc, and explain to them they've got it all wrong? I'm sure they'd just slap their heads like in a V8 commercial and change over night. \_ Thanks, I'll look around for that on the web. Would you happen to have a URL? \_ You can get started at the Joseph Campbell foundation: http://www.jcf.org/about_jcf.php \_ So is killing others via holy war discussed in the Koran? The New Testament doesn't explictly advocate killing one's enemies (although the Old Testament does). Basically I'm wondering if Islam is like Christianity where the "official" dogma is non-violent but practioners are violent or like Judaism where the "official" dogma is explictly violent. \_ The main problem of "dogma" is that it is often based on a literal interpretatation of religious texts. Since most of these texts were written metaphorically, such an interpretation gets you lots of problems. For example, think about the phrase "kill your enemies." Who are your "enemies"? How do you know they are outside of yourself and not inside? Think about that. Read Campbell, he explains it like no other westerner I've ever met. \_ This is incredibly blatant anti-semitism, and the precise opposite of the truth. Everything in the old testament is included in the Christian Bible (barring slight mistranslations) but the unmediated (<-key word; Judaism explicitly forbids Jews to engage in the literal, unmediated interpretation mentioned in the previous response) Old Testament does not represent "Jewish Dogma" in any way. Jewish law is composed of 3000 years' interpretation and reinterpretation: the Mishna, Talmud, Shulkhan Arukh, etc. Jewish "official dogma" is extremely complex (the Talmud alone fills an entire bookcase, but great rabbis memorize it) and pragmatic, and applies in a rational way to everyday life; the closest it comes to being "explicitly violent" is to say that a person in the act of murder may be killed to prevent the murder. Since I don't watch the motd constantly, I probably won't have an opportunity to reply to further nonsense on this subject, but ... there's a reason there has never been a Jewish "Holy War," barring Bible stories. \_ What the hell are you thinking? The motd is the perfect place for lies, misinterpretation and blatant anti-semitism. How dare you bring coherent fact to the motd and crush all debate? \_ What a stupid question! Go read freerepublic since you're really only interested in one answer. You might as well ask, "How can Christians really believe in the 10 commandments when they bomb abortion clinics?" \_ "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." \_ I believe that its "God will sort the dead". \_ Translation varies. \_ wasn't that a Metallica Album?
 2002/1/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23642 Activity:high 1/23 The U.S. has announced the next site of its Terror War...the Philippines' southern island of Mindanao. More than 1,000 armed U.S. troops will be marching on Filipino soil in a war that the Filipino people oppose with regular mass protests all over the nation. The Filipino people know from firsthand experience that U.S. militarization will only lead to more human rights violations, civilian deaths, environmental destruction and the continued displacement of hundreds of thousands of people. Despite the people's successful efforts to kick out the U.S. military from the archipelago, the Philippine government has once again demonstrated who its true constituents are by allowing them to return without question. The Filipino masses know that the only solution to terrorism is to address the root causes - poverty, landlessness, joblessness, homelessness - through genuine economic reform, land rights, and a democratic government that truly represents the needs of the majority rather than the few. Taking their lead, it's time to protest this new development right here in the Bay Area. Filipinos For Global Justice, Not War Coalition For more info call (415) 431-1918 \_ And stop racial profiling! Let's have a *BIG* group hug, everyone! \_ But then the Phillipines would cease to be a cheap sex destination for horney Westerners and Asians. \_ we better call them or they'll blow up in sproul \_ The Filipinos don't realize all the kidnappings are hurting their tourist industry? \_ Is this in response to the boring motd comment below? If this is true, how about a URL?
 2002/1/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23616 Activity:very high 1/20 SAN FRANCISCO COMMEMORATION OF DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. "The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today - my own government" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. April 4, 1967 WED., JAN. 16, 5 P.M., Powell & Market No New War Against Iraq, End the Sanctions Now. Join this protest on the 11th anniversary of the Gulf war. Stop the War Against Afghanistan! Stop Racial Profiling & Racist Attacks! MON. JAN. 21 (Holiday) March & Rally for Peace & Justice March Assembles: 10:30 am 4th & Townsend (Caltrans Station) Rally: 1 PM Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, Civic Center. \_ How many knee-jerk catchphrases can you stuff under one roof? I'm surprised AIDS & friends are not in there. -John \_ Shut up, John. \_ Don't forget Mumia! \_ John, they missed oppression of women, they forgot about doing it for the children and there's not a peep in there about red spotted snooker fish or the yellow tipped wiggly wumpus shrub. And landmines, they deserves a line of it's own. \_ Go-go gadget ISO! \_ Don't forget the Congo - No new volcano!!! "Congo Volcano Eruption Will Hurt Wildlife - Experts" http://freerepublic.com/focus/fr/612681/posts
 2002/1/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23593 Activity:insanely high 1/18 NY Times Writer Took $50,000 "Consultancy" Fee From Enron To Give Them "Cover" http://www.andrewsullivan.com \_ Oh no! A NYT writer?! I'm shocked! He took more than 99% of politicians in either party? It's a scandal!  2002/1/4 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23460 Activity:high 1/4 Now we're willing to fight a war with big lies? How degraded have we become? http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/04/ret.bin.laden.leaflets/index.html \_ Republicans as usual: Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, Chile, etc. \_ Business as usual: Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, Chile, etc. \_ Dave Culler in the article!!! \_ Why does the Petagon insist on dropping leaflets written in English and not in the local language of the region? Is this for our consumption? \_ I think the English leaflets are for the press only. \_ Hey genius, war time propaganda is thousands of years older than you are. Get over it. Do you think it was degrading that we dropped leaflets in WWII? Gosh, some of them might not have told the truth, too! \_ and contrary to the movie about hiroshima, there no leaflets dropped in hiroshima to warn them \_ I was thinking Germany, however, I'd like to see a URL for your hiroshima claim. \_ What's wrong with lying to the enemy? They surrender, lives are saved in the end. All is good. \_ Well supposedly we want to tell the enemy that we are the good guys, and good guys shouldn't lie. \_ You're so naive. "good guys shouldn't lie". Yes, this is just like your dungeons and dragons paladin going to Afghanistan. Uh huh. Made level 2 yet? \_ If you think they just lie to "the enemy," I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. \_ By telling you the truth in real time they're telling the enemy the truth in real time. I don't want to know the truth at the moment Live On CNN With Geraldo! if it means American lives are put at risk. It isn't a video game, it is war. I *do* want to know the truth afterwards though. Yes this does mean that sometimes things will happen in my name as an American citizen that I don't want to happen and I won't even know until maybe years later, but knowing about it in real time wouldn't stop it.  2001/12/31 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23416 Activity:very high 12/30 Indians only days away from full mobility. Pakistan mobile now and might launch first strike. Both sides moving missiles near front. Stop deleting this. Nuclear war is just as important as an arcade in the South bay: a post you didn't delete. \_ personally, i never delete posts, but i can see their point. there are thousands of news sources out there a click away with every different viewpoint, language, and depth of detail, and hundreds of places this can be debated online. political threads like this on the motd usually end up as heated debates of very long posts between just two people, which are not fun to read. since most of us read the motd for fun, that means your post sucks. \_ A nuclear conflict there might not be so bad. Their limited capability means the damage will be constrained within Asia. A war can semi-permanently set back both countries and possibly China, which might not be a bad thing. India, although currently it pretends to be pro-US, eventually will become a bigger threat with a more functional government and military and less fondness for western ideas. \_ Not so bad? You are such a humanitarian... \_ Yawn. This has been going on in Korea for 50 years. \_ Hey, thanks for the news! Now that the motd's turned into World News Now, I don't have to go to the effort of firing up my Web browser. Now, *does* anyone have the address of a good arcade in the South Bay? If we're all going to be annihilated in a nuclear firestorm, I wanna go out having the most fun that a CS major can have!  2001/12/22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23345 Activity:very high 12/21 From Jon Carroll: "SOME HAVE SAID that this is wartime and that people should watch what they say in wartime. But, you know, this isn't wartime. Wartime is when civilians are drafted to answer their country's call, and stay-at-home spouses move into jobs in shipyards and steel factories, and we are called upon to save aluminum and tin and purchase blackout drapes. Now we are being called upon to purchase consumer electronics and airline tickets. We are told that we defeat terrorism by acting normally. All we are called upon to sacrifice is our right to think freely and to express our opinions openly. And if we fail in our duty -- well, there are always the talk radio blowhards and the spontaneous mobs to remind us what good citizenship means." \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting his family. happy holidays. - danh \_ So JC thinks the Revolution wasn't war time? 1812 wasn't? French- Canadian wasn't? The army going west to wipe out the natives wasn't? Taking the southwest from Mexico wasn't? Korea wasn't? Vietnam wasn't? JC is an idiot. Not every war will be a clone of WWII. For lack of anything better to do I read this idiot every day on BART. His idiocy makes me laugh. He should stick to stories about his kids and being a dad and give up the attempt at political genius. He's less coherent than the typical motd poster. \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting his family. happy holidays. - danh \_ last time i checked, it wasn't wartime because ONLY CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR. and as much as ted turner thinks he can declare war, well, de jure, it is a right reserved only to the legislative branch. \_ haven't you heard? Rupert Murdoch can declare war. Apparently so can George Soros. de facto is what counts. \_ You're right. All those other wars where we drafted people and they died on foreign lands from foreign bullets weren't wars. They were just police actions. Wake up.  2001/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:23266 Activity:high 12/16 george jr.: "father, no matter what i do, the country despises me. the world despises me." george sr.: "back in the day, when everyone knew what a piece of shit i was, i'd get my best friend sadam to back me. sure it'd take a few extra bucks, but he'd back me." george jr.: "so what should i do?" george sr.: "one day, pretend you're worried about the future of america's education and while you're there, unaware of course, there'll be random attacks. do one by the pentagon, not on it, but near, and I mean NEAR it so that everyone won't blame the us. then hit the world trade center." george jr.: "why the world trade center?" george sr.: "because you moron that's the people that hate you! but if all the investors are scared to work, then no one will continue buying into tech. people will feel there's a need for my national security defense plan." george jr.: "wait, a minute! That was my idea!" george sr.: "i told you to read my lips when you were doing the interview. as i was saying, people will finally buy into, okay, OUR, national security defense plan. people will be dumb enough because they're like sheep to think that they can get work in defense contracting." george jr.: "But dad, no one wants to work in defense." george sr.: "You idiot! aren't you listening?!?!?! if we dump a few terrorist attacks, which are cheap since islamic people come from 3rd world nations where the women are ugly, people will be scared into believing we need a national defense improved. that way, the economy will improve but improve not on crap like the internet or that whole new economy gibberish that clinton guy was such a proponent of. it will be on what us republicans always deemed appropriate: on the back of the good ol' working government! in addition, it'll justify all that push for increases surveilance over that anarchic, hippy internet thing as corporations like the music industry, disney, the movie industry, and microsoft will want that have been so generous in "donating" their time and other, ahem, resources, to our worthy cause. those damn, hippy scientists should've never let the net go out of ARPA. anyway, but now that we're, I mean, huh huh, you're in charge again, it'll only be a matter of time before the american public will renew all of the republicans in congress. we'll show the americans that we're sensitive and have a *REAL* plan for boosting our economy. It'll just be like old times." George Jr: "but the old times sucked!" George Sr: "Shut up! Get out! You infidel! Go back to your Mexican day laborers! And don't come back until you're willing to listen!" George Jr: "Yes, dad."  2001/12/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23250 Activity:very high 12/15 Bush: "I don't know whether we're going to get him tomorrow or a month from now, or a year from now, or in my second term of office. I don't really know. But we're going to get him," he continued." \_ www.smirkingchimp.com \_ Is self-confidence a crime now? \_ you misspelled "arrogance" \_ Bush would've spelled it that way. \_ Funny that no matter how well the man does some people are still stuck swallowing leftist media noise. Do you also think it's ok to sell secrets to foreign powers for DNC cash infusions? \_ Do you have any evidence backing up your paranoid fantasies? URL please. \_ You're as bad as all those people in the Arab world who unequivocally accuse the US of doctoring the bin Laden tape without any actual evidence they it was doctored. Like them believing anything al Jazeira says without proof, you believe anything the RNC says without proof. So unless you actually saw Bill Clinton hand over a pile of secret military documents to another country, shut the fuck up. \_ Amazing. So unless I *personally* see a crime take place it couldn't possibly have happened? So let's say I break in to your place while you're gone and steal all your stuff. You later find your stuff at my place but you didn't see me take it. You're cool with that? What's your address? I'm coming by for a visit. \_ Congratulations, this is among the most pathetic posts I've read on the motd. As we all know, it was just a vast right wing conspiracy. Uh huh. \_ This is nice. You have nothing more intelligible to say so you retort with an inane comment. And stop putting words into my mouth. \_ Ok, ask yourself why Clinton was spending his time jerking off in the Oval Office sink instead of counteracting terrorist threats? As for Bush doing well, people said he was doing a great job handling the matter hours after the attacks, even though he didn't actually do anything yet. It was the NYC mayor who was in charge of the situation there, not Bush. But it's natural to rally around your president during a crisis as big as this. The same thing happened to FDR right after Pearl Harbor. Does the fact that thousands of people died all of a sudden make him a great president? No. He's done things by the book and, of course having the largest military in the world, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that we're going to kick the Taliban's ass. In my opinion, Bush has made several critical faux pas, most of which were by his attorney general. His ability to communicate effectively as a statesman (yes it is part of your job as president) has been meager at best and his choice of words an embarrassment to our country. And I don't think he has the diplomatic skills to handle the international coalition in the long term. He's already done and said a lot of things to piss off a lot of countries (the war itself is not one of them - military tribunals, security council veto, planning to wage war against Iraq, etc...) and the only reason why other countries are condoning the US is because we were victims to a horrific attack. Once the war in Afghanistan is over, we're going to lose support and isolated from the world unless Bush changes his attitude. Of course, I'm sure \_ While Bush is no Reagan, compared to Gore hes the fucking Messiah. What are you an ambassador from a foreign country? Exactly why are we supposed to care what socialist euro-trash think? This argument about pissing off other countries is ridiculous, yet its repeated incessantly by the media pukes. there are csua Republicans here who are insistent that "other countries" in the world are irrelevant and that the UN should be destroyed. \_ You seem a little upset. Perhaps some Prozac? I've been waiting for years to hear exactly why it matters what other counrties think of us. So let's say Syria and Gabon and uhm BFE all decide they hate the U.S. so much they're declaring war. They pull their ambassadors out and print bad things about us in their government run newspapers and on their governement run tv/radio. Ok. Yeah? So what? And? Still waiting.... \_ If we cared more about what other people thought of us, we might not have had whackos crashing planes into buildings. That's not enough reason for you to care about international relations? \_ Keep on watching CNN little sheep. \_ I read the NY Times, not the Drudge Report. And stop trying to pretend to be 3 separate people posting to the motd. I know you posted the other 2 above. \_ Nothing wrong with the Drudge Report. 99% of it is just links to big media newspapers online. Unless of course you have a problem with big media (which you should if you're smart). \_ As opposed to selling weapons to foreign powers to fund a rebellion against another foreign power? \_ What's wrong with that? You really don't see any difference between selling out your own country and screwing around with some little banana republic??? \_ Non-sequiteur. \_ Not at all. Care to try again? Look up the word "hypocrite" and come back. \_ And, while we're at it, how to spell "non sequitur."  2001/12/13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23232 Activity:insanely high 12/13 "Army Working on Weapons-Grade Anthrax, Report Says" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011213/ts/attack_anthrax_army_dc.html Is the US under certain treaty not to do that? \_ Probably not. The US usually does things that they would also criticize other countries for doing (conducting nuclear tests, spying, etc...) \_ Does it matter? It's not like the rest of the world isn't doing the same thing to the greatest extent they can. \_ Yeah, it matters. One of the main things we accuse Saddam Hussein of doing is violating that treaty. If the report is true, we are liars and hypocrits to boot. \_ I feel so ashamed. \_ Yes, and so what? In the real world of international affairs might makes right. I'm sorry if this fact is painful to you but it is so. The rest of the world knows it, loves it, and lives by it. Lemme know when you have your own country and how ideally you run it. \_ listen fuckchop. you live in the US. you have a say. this is not a dictatorial regime. are you saying you have no problem with your country (and you as a representative of it) breaking a treaty and building immoral weapons? if your sentiment is shared by all americans, then i feel completely comfortable with the sep11bomb. \_ Weapons aren't immoral. Go look up the word. Enough with the trollish concept of "if you think or do xyz then it justifies sep11th". That has been overdone. Make a real argument if you have one. Anyway, in this country there isn't a single sentiment shared by all Americans so I guess you'll have to continue having false discomfort with the idea of 3000 or so innocent civilians getting murdered for no reason. \_ W wipes his ass with treaties like that. \_ When has the US ever kept to a treaty? Going all the way back, the US, like just about every country ever has signed treaties and ditched them the moment they became annoying. \_ Making and keeping small amounts of anthrax for prophylactic purposes is permitted under the treaty. Didn't you know that Ft. Detrick is where USAMRIID is located? You know, like that movie, Outbreak?  2001/12/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:23225 Activity:very high 12/11 Express your condolences to three Special Forces heroes killed in action: http://www.quietpros.com \_ You meant those three killed by our own stupid friendly fire? \_ I'm what many of the morons I read here would call "liberal" but I still think any soldiers killed in the line of duty deserve the proper respect, even if the circumstances were a sick joke. \_ 3? That's nothing. Clue up. The US Feds estimate that about 15% of US casualties in WWII were friendly fire. From 1 in 6 down to 3 out of thousands is a good record. Next time you mouth off try knowing what you're talking about. You'll sound much less stupid and maybe what you say will be taken seriously instead of as the ignorant rantings of a child. \_ Although it is correct that casualties due to friendly fire have gone down drastically, these are not the relevant statistics. Since we have not had thousands dead in the war against Afghanistan, you cannot compare these two statistics. \_ It's not from 1 in 6 down to 3 out of thousands. It's from 1 in 6 in WWII up to 1 in 3 in Vietnam up to 3 in 4 in Afghanistan. Duh! \_ While I respect our soldiers, I don't understand why they automatically become heroes, or why we should feel like we owe them our life or something. I mean, these are professional soldiers, not draftees, and fighting is the sole purpose and goal of their job. I mean, if they did something above and beyond their call of duty, then I would call them heroes. \_ I was of the same opinion ten years ago so I understand you but I think you will find a different take on this as you get older and see more about where our security comes from. -- condescending old liberal fart \_ A lot of people contribute to our security. Not just soldiers. In fact, what our enemies fear most are our technology which our scientists and engineers contributed. \_ Absolutely! We laud and reward the scientists and engineers for their achievements. And recent events have shown that we mourn their passing in violence, as well. \_ Just for starters, 400,000 WWII, 50,000 Korean, and 50,000 Vietnam US soldiers gave their lives to protect your freedom. Have you no shame? \_ How did the Vietnam and Korean soldiers protect my freedom? \_ Like I said, most of those are draftees, so it is different. Also, soldiers at that time have a much higher risk of death or injury than soldiers in the Gulf War or War in Afghanistan. If we fight a high-casualty war today, we will be drafting people again. \_ What is the definition of friendly fire anyway? I've heard conflicting things... like shots during practice attacts, cross-fire in actual fighting, etc. \_ in response to no particular part of this thread, be grateful for the sacrafices that those in the US armed forces make to try and make this world a little safer for all of us. \_ I am as grateful to them as I am to our policemen, firemen, doctors, teachers, scientists and engineers. I do think that our armed forces personnel are underpaid though. They deserve to be paid well.  2001/11/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23111 Activity:nil 11/26 Thursday, November 29 5 pm 22 Warren Hall UC Berkeley Featuring: Harvey Weinstein, MD Director, Center for Human Rights UC Berkeley Maria Holden, Ph.D. Psychologist Survivors International \_ We can stop right here. Without further reading it should be obvious where this is going. We'll go on anyway for kicks. What are the effects of war on civilian populations? How will the US war on Afghanistan affect public health at home? What has the response to war been among health professionals here and abroad? What are our responsibilities as public health professionals in times of war? \_ Well we know that sitting on our asses doing nothing but destroying aspirin factories in North Africa wasn't very healthy for several thousand New Yorkers. Bluster and nothing sure wasn't the right public health choice. While the U.S. public health system has concentrated its resources on the response to bioterrorist threats, health professionals elsewhere habe voiced their criticisms of war as being inherently damaging to the health of individuals and populations. Major medical journals such as the Lancet have \_ I think getting hit with a 757/767 is more damaging than watching the nightly news. featured articles discussing the millions of Afghani civilians who may freeze or starve to death this winter, detailing the limb-threatening injuries unexploded cluster bombs will cause to children for decades to come, and criticizing as propaganda the initial "food from the sky" approach of the U.S. military towards providing humanitarian aid. Most U.S. medical journals have \_ I suspect life was much better under the Taliban than it will be now that the world is on the ball over there. It was better when the aid agencies had to bribe the Taliban thugs to get food in to the people than now. discussed in depth the threat of and response to bioterrorism on U.S. soil but have remained largely silent on the health affects of military action. Meanwhile, the American Public Health \_ The "public health affects" of military action in another country: nothing has blown up in this country recently and roughly 1000 foreign criminals are no longer able to harm American civilians in this country and a reported 360+ criminals have been rounded up by other nations. Association recently passed a resolution opposing the war on \_ The who? Who exactly is the APHA? Afghanistan. Come here from two public health professionals about \_ Is either of these people a credentialed and practicing health professional? In what field exactly? their experiences working with survivors of war, then stay to participate in a discussion of some of the questions raised. Free and open to the public. \_ Of course entry is free. Who would pay?  2001/11/14 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23038 Activity:nil 11/14 http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP111B.html  2001/11/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22954 Activity:nil 11/6 Oh thank god someone finally censored the politics thread. I might have mistakenly engaged in some sort of almost intellectual debate with other anonymous people otherwise and maybe even learned something! Keep up the good work! \_ We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia.  2001/11/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22944 Activity:very high 11/5 Protest the xenophobic Feinstein/Kyl legislation targeted at foreign students. That's THIS THURSDAY! Starts at 4:00 pm in SF (Montgomery Street Bart), One Post Street. Meet at the Berkeley Bart at 3:00/3:15 to go in together. Also, afterward, if anyone is interested, there is an action at KRON TV organized by the SF Town Hall Committee to Stop War and Racism. **Millions at Risk of Starvation as Winter Approaches** \_ just because we attack another country who aren't white, that automatically makes us racists? perhaps you are the racist \_ That has nothing to do with US military action in Afghanistan you moron. It has to do with the proposal on student visas. \_ moron, see the "also.." \_ Liberal application of hyperbole makes liberals harder to take seriously. Why don't you guys try sounding more intelligent? \_ when is the simpson's halloween special? \_ Tomorrow according to http://snpp.com. \_ can you not see the link between war and racism? war engenders bravado, which immediately leads the rest of you fucks to say shit like "yeah, kill all those sand niggers". that's why. \_ yeah, kill all those infidels \_ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/05/ED128789.DTL what stanfurd protesters don't understand \_ Frankly I'd like to see the money going to educate foreigners redirected for US citizens. Does this make me a xenophobe? We (and allies) feed, protect, develop and educate the world... what more do you want? Why are you race baiting- just admit it you want a free lunch. You're as bad as as Jackson and Sharpton. Evil imperialistic America - uh huh. \_ no US money is spent on foreign students you idiot. Foreign students pay out of state tuition. If they're grad students they have to earn their scholarship or work as a TA like everybody else. Isn't there a shortage of TAs? \_ There is only a shortage of TAs because the flood of foreign students has driven down wages and working conditions for domestic TAs. \_ I know a few foreign students who got a lot of money from the US in various forms...  2001/11/4 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22929 Activity:nil 11/6 http://www.greenparty.org/bangor.txt Military detains Green Party leader for speaking against war.  2001/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22908 Activity:moderate 11/1 do we actually have a Declaration of War? How are we going to "go in" and assasinate the leader of Al-Qaeda? \_ No. Good question. \_ Congress authorised the Prez to do what he needs to do. Was it an official "legal" declaration? No. You don't declare a legal war on criminals, only foreign nations. How are we "going in"? With B52's, mostly. Questions? \_ I read that there was no declaration of war for the Vietnam War either, and that's why the govt couldn't ban any anti-war protests during that time.  2001/10/29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22858 Activity:nil 10/29 A disturbing article about hidden agenda behind war on terror. The author claims that terrorism is just an excuse, the real reason US air forces are bombing Afghanistan today is to bring in a government that would let us run an oil pipeline that reaches the oil rich ex-Soviet republics in Central Asia: http://mirror.icnetwork.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11392430&method=full \_ A disturbing example of idiocy. \_ Hell, if the bombing can stop the terrorists from killing another 5000 US civilians on US soil with no warning, who cares. \_ No, the main point of the article is that bombing to kill terrorists is wrong and ineffective and America needs to be more careful about its foreign policy in order to get the credibility it needs to fight terrorism. The oil stuff is an unsubstantiated aside. He quotes an unnamed US diplomat and talks about secret government approval. Where did he get this information? A really interesting discussion discussion would be: What are these "non-violent" alternative that people speak of and how would they work? Why is it that pacifists believe that non-violence works against ALL opponents? Since when have we ever found a silver bullet for any problem? [formatting god was here] \_ Yes, please list the serious non-violent alternatives on MOTD. \_ Drum circles? \_ Didn't we see this in the last Bond movie? \_ I think there are some parallels in True Lies, also. \_ The article must not be letting facts get in the way of journalism. The Taliban in fact said that US companies could put a pipeline through the country for natrual gas (I don't think oil really is viable). \_ This "War" on terrorism is more about boosting Bush's fading polling numbers than anything else. \_ No no! That's Mr. Clinton and Monica!!1!  2001/10/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22849 Activity:high 10/26 "How do I make people nervous?" I asked. "By doing whatever you're doing." "What am I doing?" "I don't know, but whatever it is, you're going to stop doing it!" One reporters brush with The War on Terrorism: http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2001-10-25/cover.asp \_ Sitting around in a yoga position with your eyes closed with cops all around you makes people nervous. \_ They had already detained him, forced him to erase his pictures and confiscated his pen(!) before that happened. Nice try, though.  2001/10/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22841 Activity:nil 10/26 "Iran Says U.S. Paying for Giving Anthrax to Iraq" http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011026/ts/attack_iran_anthrax_dc.html \_ Pay no attention to the man in front of the screen pleasing a domestic constituency. The same day that this statement was made, the Iranian ambassador to the US given given a visa so he could travel to the US Capitol to have dinner with several Congressmen. And you can bet your ass that Rafsanjani had given a thumbs up to that trip/dialogue. \_ Isn't it interesting that US officials say that Russia, US and Iraq are the only 3 known nations which posseses anthrax as a biological weapon? Doesn't Iraq seem out of the place among the 3? \_ Not really. Any country willing to spend the bucks could have done it. Iraq has been spending bucks. Where's the conspiracy? They fessed up to multiple tons of the stuff post-1991. Why are you surprised? Read a newspaper instead of conspiracy FUD. \_ Iraq initiated its biological warfare program in 1985-86. According to the Iraqi's own declaration, they produced 8500 liters of concentrated anthrax with some 6000 liters filled into fifty bombs and ten Scud warheads. \_ Newsflash: Isle of Skye in the UK is declared off-limits for several centuries because the soil is so soaked with anthrax and similar shit from military experiments in the 1950s. There is no guard there, you're just forbidden by law to visit, and expected to be sane enough to not do so on your own volition. Got a boat and a biohazard suit lying around? -John \_ Is that the Gruinard Island off the NW cost of Scotland where they infected sheeps with anthrax and then buried them?  2001/10/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22683 Activity:high 10/10 Is there any theologically approved way of keeping a dead Muslim martyr out of heaven? Let's say we turn the corpse into Alpo or get some prisonyard Bubba to make the dead body his sweet..umm..corpse. \_ yes, kill his entire family and immediate relatives \_ Drag his dead body through the streets of NY. Then feed what's left to a colony of maggots. \_ Wasn't that what happened to the Delta force troopers in Mogadishu? How civilized. \_ You are sick. \_ I think that's a very reasonable question. You have to find a way to deter a guy if he's not afraid of dying. \_ Keep rationalizing. \_ I think this makes sense. In ancient Chinese culture, not keeping the whole dead body together (ie. part of the dead body being at somewhere else) is a good deterrent. \_ Did that deter the PLA soldiers charging en masse at the risk of being blown into thousands of pieces by artillery fire? \_ I think we establish a Palestinian state and lift the UN embargoes on Iraq, then the martyrs will no longer have a just cause to die for and won't go up to Houri-land. \_ Don't forget removing the props for the corrupt governments in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Did anybody catch the NPR Frontline piece on Al-Quaeda last night (KQED)? \_ yeah I saw that. The U.S. infidels must remove its military presence from the Saudi holy land. \_ Those people(bin Laden & gangs) will always find reason to fight American. Who knows, they could say that Americans or other non-muslims are infidels, thus deserved to get wiped out from the face of the earth. Look at what Taliban is doing to its people. Not all Afghans are fundamentalist, but Talibans are forcing them to live according to fundamentalist laws.  2001/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22601 Activity:moderate 9/23 reading list: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/jihad.htm http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/barberf.htm the truth about the CIA? http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm \_ supplimental reading: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28602-2001Sep14.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59530-2001Sep19.html  2001/9/23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22598 Activity:very high 9/20 Who wants to start a "what day does the bombing begin" pool? \_ That was one of the most fun things we did in the coop, for the Haiti invasion (until Carter fuffed it for everyone.) If only for all the self-righteous cave people it pissed off. -John \_ Yeah, now I see why www access to motd.public was removed. \_ eh? whatchew smokin fool? \_ crack. lots and lots of crack. \_ Now, if I had said "who wants to start a 'how many civilian casualties will the US cause in its bombing campaign' pool?" you might have a point. But I did not. \_ http://www.debka.com \_ I don't think you'll see the sort of bombing you're looking for. I think this is going to be like a new Cold War. This time the opposing philosophy is a twisted version of extremist Islam. Last time it was communism. In 10 to 15 years after the fundamentalist muslims are crushed and their children are listening to the latest off the Top 40 charts, we'll have a few years of peace before some one else steps up to the plate to take a swing. It's the price of freedom. \_ Maybe the fundamentalists are right about us being the devils. \_ Maybe? So you think a bunch of civilian killing, zero freedom dictatorships are morally superior to a democratically elected most-free market economy with a \_ I read that as motd-free. free press, open travel for citizens, the right to criticise the government without fear of death or imprisonment? You're either a troll or insane. \_ I vote for "joking" \_ how about "Which U.S. city gets nuked first?" \_ I'll take that bet. My answer: none. A little anthrax crop dusting through a few east bay districts would wake a up a few people though. Those that survived....  2001/9/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22594 Activity:kinda low 9/22 scary shit: http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/09/21/iraq/index.html http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iraq/956-tni.htm - danh \_ It is scary that salon is still online. \_ also note the above article is from 1995. \_ what tasty and delicious theorizing! i recommend these links be turned into a chain letter. better this than fake-nostradamus and old Canadian editorials from the 70's. \_ what part do you think is so off the wall? or are you just being tom-like, tom? \_ why do people always think i'm being sarcastic? i said what i meant, these are fascinating articles and i think average people should hear about this. i'm not tom. \_ .50cal long-range sniper rifle, standard SEAL issue. I honestly don't see what's so difficult about this--I'd imagine that a lot of scruples against "executive orders" would have fallen by the wayside by now...-John \_ .50BMG is primarily for "hard targets" like tranports, equipment. Stick to .308/.300/.338 for people.  2001/9/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22571 Activity:nil 9/21 What does having a really hawt chick that's taller than the guy checking her ID have to do with the war on the Taliban on the http://www.latimes.com page? And the messages above this line do?  2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36335 Activity:nil 9/18 Want to replace a header in a binary on Solaris with null, non-outputing characters. I have tried ^H and ^G to no avail. I don't want junk or even spaces in its place, what can i use? ladenix 5.0 (jihad) login: _ jihad% mv /bin/laden /dev/null jihad% diff /bin/laden /dev/il jihad% jihad% wc butthead_apologists_on_soda Stack overflow Segmentation fault (core dumped) ladenix 5.0 (jihad) login: _ jihad% mv /bin/laden /dev/null  2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36334 Activity:nil 9/19 For those inclined to post articles from the Guardian. "... the extrapolation of your own adolescent rebellion into a cosmic political philosophy in which the most powerful country in the world personifies the domineering adult authority against which you pit yourself" http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba8322940da.htm  2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36332 Activity:nil 9/19 Another one for the America haters http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba89ffd1b40.htm  2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22523 Activity:very high 9/19 "Respond to War Mongering Media Coverage" http://media-alliance.org/pacifica/peace.html Don't delete this again. I will continue reposting. \_ War is good for the economy \_ oh yeah, that's why the market has been so enthusiastic this week. -tom \_ Oceania is at war with Iraq. It was always been at war with..Afghanistan. Repeat. Oceania is at war with Afghanistan. It has always been at war with Afghanistan.."  2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22517 Activity:high 9/18 "Never get involved in a land war in Asia" - the Venetian http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/18/ret.russia.afghanwar \_ It's "the Sicilian," dummy. And it should be qualified, "when the USA is funding and training the other side." \_ He's dead. Like *he's* so smart. Draft Cary Elwes to lead the US attack force! ladenix 5.0 (jihad) login: _  2001/9/19 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:22516 Activity:nil ladenix 5.0 (jihad) login: _  2001/9/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22514 Activity:high 9/18 http://www.foreignaffairs.org/Search/document_briefings.asp?i=19981101facomment1428.xml&nb=0 \_ A link to Patton's speech: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/patton_20010914.html Patton was already using terms like "He Man" and "superman". I thought those were first created as comic characters after WWII.  2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22502 Activity:nil 9/18 http://wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46771,00.html  2001/9/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36317 Activity:nil 9/17 The die is cast: http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba5e05c34a5.htm \_ The Free Republic is used for porn steganography by Bin Laden's Gum Arabic producing cronies. And you're an arab terrorist commie bastard for reading it.  2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22493 Activity:high 9/17 Question: To those of you opposed to various military actions, what do you propose the US do? I understand the objection(s) to military response. I'm not debating that. What action(s) do you propose we take instead? I'm looking for serious responses. Please, I'm not looking for answers in the negative as to what we shouldn't do. I honestly want to know what you think we should be doing, if anything. Concrete stuff, not simply "follow international law" and other fuzzy stuff like that. Thanks. \_ my position on the subject is that "war" is completely the wrong concept to invoke because it's an extremely loaded word with lots of consequences. i think what you want is to ARREST the group of international bandits using whatever means necessary. war is an overraction. this was not an act of war. this was a criminal murder. you need two nations for war, with citizens and soldiers. what you have is a bunch of renegades. Go arrest them and all this anger will be dealt with properly. -ali \_ But most of these renegades have support from one of a variety of middle eastern nations. arresting a specific group may eliminiate one cell, but it does not solve the problem -- as long as the support is there, the terrorists will continue to exist. If someone is harboring a criminal, they implicitly become accomplices; if a national entity is harboring these criminals....what do you suggest? Asking nicely hasn't turned up any real results thus far, and violating another nation's sovereignity is an act of war... -mice sovereignity (crossing their borders w/o permission to make an arrest) is an act of war... -mice \_ Most of them come from saudialabia and uae, whose dictatorship governments are very friendly to us. Doesn't that tell u something? \_ Yes, that you're not very well informed. \_ nuke pakistan \_ Pakistan appears to be cooperating. Why do you want to nuke a potential ally in the area which likely has intelligence information on bin Laden? \_ let's do the aghgan people a favor and take out the taliban. they are oppressive even to their own kind. no nukes just invade and set up a new government and hand it over to saudi arabia or or india. \_ I agree. Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for the afghan people, but it may be costly for us. Still it's a good cause. However do not hand it over to banana republics like saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to banana republics like saudialabia or indo, but hand it to UK or Japan. \_ yah. hand it over to the gaps of the world, or the old navies \_ I agree. Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for the afghan people, but it may be costly for us. Still it's a good cause. However do not hand it over to banana republics like saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to UK or Japan. \_ oh yeah, cool... let's overthrow another gov't like we tried to do in Nicaragua, etc. \_ If the Taliban is harboring terrorists, then that's precisely what we will do. \_ I think we need to bomb a few random deserted place in Afghanistan without killing civilians just to show that we are committed to military retaliation. This won't actually do anything to get us bin mility retaliation. This won't actually do anything to get us bin Laden, but it'll settle national anger and keep our face. After that, pump all the resources into CIA and do the real work of getting bin Laden and destroying the terrorist network. We need to revise the ban on CIA assasination as well. (I'm not debating whether or not CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing. It just happens to be the agency we have at this moment.) just happens to be the agency we have on hand at this moment.) \_ Moron. Many terrorist camps are near civilian settlements. Why kill off people who are innocent bystanders and could tell is where the bad guys are? \_ Change US policy over time to not support Israel? Not something I believe, but maybe others do. \_ Doesn't this just "reward" the terrorists for their actions by giving them what they want? How would this discourage further violence against us to further shift our policy until our policy becomes whatever they want because we fear them? \_ Yeah, I think so... I agree with the previous poster's statement though... I think we need to get Osama et. al. through diplomacy, intelligence, etc and additionally evaluate our actions that were creating this climate of terrorism (eg stop giving money to Israel). \_ You can't think that way. That's the attitude of a brat who refuses to stop doing something because his pride won't let him admit he was wrong. IF something is wrong for us we should stop. Such as our own support of terrorism in the past, and Israel's support of of terrorism in the past...read up on what they were doing to get the British out. \_ Get the British out of where? \_ Israel. Duh. King David hotel, Semiramis hotel (bombing leading to collapse of building). Other stuff like: http://www.jerusalemites.org/sabra.html It's hard to find objective sources on any of it though. \_ Sure I can think that way. Here's another way to think of it: the nagging brat who screams until his mother gives in to his demand for the new power ranger toy. Then he wants the other ones. So he screams. Then he wants a bigger cookie, then another cookie, then no curfew or bedtime, then he wants.... When does it stop? If mom had punished his poor behavior (the screaming) at stage one, then the lack of reward would, in time, cease his screaming fits. How's that for an alternative line of thought on the psychology of children and terrorists? \_ I said "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG FOR US." Dimwit. Demanding cookies isn't a valid analogy for any case of terrorism I can think of. \_ What do we get out of supporting Israel? \_ We need to get little boy Yasser and little boy Sharon together and keep spanking their arses until they agree to stop their bitch fight. Aren't the Arabs and Jews fucking relatives? Don't understand why we should be suffering for their darn family feud. Fucking create problems for the whole world. just to show that we are committed to mility retaliation. This won't actually do anything to get us bin Laden, but it'll settle national anger and keep our "face". After that, pump all the resources into CIA and do the real work of getting bin Laden and destroying the terrorist network. We need to revise the ban on CIA assasination as well. (I'm not debating whether or not CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing. It just happens to be the agency we have on hand at this moment.) \_ it's a war, if we don't do anything to take out a government that hides behind a terrorist group then we are inviting nations to create terrorist groups (but really working for their government's interests) where their government can easily detach themselves but in actuality they support them. We have to show this is B.S. and any nation that harbors terrorist is using this terrorist group as their own weapon their darn family feud. their darn family feud. Fucking create problems for the whole world.  2001/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:22491 Activity:high 9/17 "Afghanistan: A Nightmare Battlefield" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41121-2001Sep16.html It seems it'll be hard to win a full-scale war. \_ We don't need to take and hold territory. Just kill the right people. This is very different from the warm water port the Soviets were looking for. \_ It depends on whether the goal is to get nedalnibamaso or to eliminate the talibananas. \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em off \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em off \_ just use nukes to make big holes in the earth where the caves are \_ three words: radioactive dust clouds \_ Are you stupid? afghans are some of the most friendly people on earth. Also they produce some of the most beautiful babes on earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took his wife roxelena from there. darius the great, the sword of the earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took his wife roxelena from there. darius the great, the sword of the Lord, who was very nice to the Isrealites as mentioned in the bible, also hail from somewhere there. It's the mad foreign mullahs from saudi alabia who enslaved them that we should eliminate. \_ Hey, let's try to limit civilian deaths, and not just wantonly kill people like the terrorists just did.  2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22488 Activity:high 9/16 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/16/1647231 How to defend your privacy and freedom -- and why you need to do this TODAY. Deadline: next Friday. \_ how should I send my letter? I know e-mail seems more impersonal than snail mailed letters. what about faxes? I assume that the USPS is not back to full operating capacity. \_ should I fax or snail mail my letter? I assume that the post office isn't back to full capacity yet. \_ (USPS ~= Faxes) >> email. For some Senators/Reps, USPS==Fax. Most folks in Congress aren't very technically clued, and don't give nearly as much weight to email as something that actually comes in on paper. If you can actually get your Congress Person on the phone, or make an appointment at their local office, that's even better. Probably the best way to do this is to request that they schedule a phone conference or meeting in a letter sent by mail or fax. letter sent by mail or fax. As the poster above indicated, USPS is probably right out if it needs to get there RSN, so fax. If you don't own a fax, most copy shops will let you fax things for$0.50-$1.00 per page. -dans \_ Dan's assesment of USPS/faxes is right. A personal phone call is better than either. If possible, a personal visit to their office in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf \_ Dan's assesment of email vs snailmail/faxes is right. A personal phone call is better than either. If possible, a personal visit to their office in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alex \- congresspeople ignore stuff not wrapped to <80 cols --psb  2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22487 Activity:high 75%like:36307 9/16 US plans to retaliate against 60 nations: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1547000/1547561.stm \_ Bullshit. That is not the headline of the story and it's not what the story says. Read it again.  2001/9/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22483 Activity:nil 9/15 Afghans left frightened and alone as war looms: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/ts/attack_afghan_dc_6.html \_ The amount of evil created by those who run that country defies comprehension. -John \_ They are the product of 1980s US policy in that region. \_ So you are saying we should have helped the Soviets take Afghanistan, and rolled out the red carpet for them in Pakistan. How can there be this many morons at Berkeley?  2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22482 Activity:insanely high 9/15 The state of america today "There are two nations and cultures now living under the star-spangled banner." http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba4761c269f.htm \_ "ramble"  2001/9/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22439 Activity:nil 9/13 Vladimir Lukin, a deputy speaker of the Russian parliament: "U.S. foreign policy has been characterized by a high degree of self-confidence, complacency and intoxication with its own power following the Cold War. If the U.S. prefers to pretend that it rules the world, such myopia will continue to result in horrible acts of terror." \_ If Russia could get back to as strong as in the USSR era, they would do the same too. \_ that's not the point  2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22426 Activity:high 9/13 http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba02bf8631c.htm Read message 14 \_ 14(re israel) or 13(re russia)? \_ the numbering of the comments is really confusing. message 14 is about russia, not israel. (message 1 is the article itself.) \_ what part of 14 don't you understand? \_ what part of 14 don't you understand? I think the original poster was pointing out the second to last paragraph ("Two nights ago...")  2001/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22425 Activity:high 9/12 Does our military do background checks on enlisted personnels and recruits? \_ Yes. Its also required for civil service or contract work on military bases. \_ Very cursory ones. \_ Timothy McVeigh was a Gulf war veteran. \_ Very cursiory ones. \_ what a moronic comment. your point? Did you even bother to read his history and how he got disenfranchised AFTER the Gulf War, especially because of Waco?  2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36278 Activity:nil 9/12 I'm compiling a list of actions that we can take against the terrorists. Please add to this list. 1. bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age. They don't have any natural resources that we need. It's useful as a nuclear test site though. \_ Afghanistan is already in the stone age. All we can do is to make it a big nuclear crater. 2. finish the job with Iraq. After killing saddam, we colonize the country and take over their oil fields. Put the iraq soldiers to work in the oil fields. 3. Deal with the palestinian problem once and for all. Move them all to Iraq and work the oil fields. 4. While we're at it, bomb Iran as well. Take over their oil fields and put them to work in the oil fields. 5. Send in our very best Christian conversion people. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, etc. It's time for them to abandon Allah and come to Christ! 6. Deport all non-citizen Muslims and Hindus from the US. To comply with the US constitution, we can't touch them if they're citizens. But by god, let's get rid of all the Hindus on H-1 visas. They all look and smell the same anyway. The US is no place for people who worship animals like elephants, rats, or Allah. \_ Is this supposed to be humurous or are you seriously stupid? \_ hahaha  2001/9/12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22409 Activity:nil 9/12 How about a csua t-shirt that says, "Now is not the time for justice, now is the time for WAR!" i bet it would sell well right now. \_ Hi paolo!  2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22404 Activity:high 9/12 Bush to declare a Jihad against Mohammedian terrorism! \_ Motd poll: Should we "nuke and pave" everything between jerusalem and kashmir (ie the 90% of the muslim world) in order to solve this problem forever? \_ that wouldn't have stopped oklahoma city or the Tokyo sarin gas attack. \_ By this problem, I mean the muslim terrorist jihad problem. I think that we can deal with the other problems as law enforcement issues. This is bigger than law enforcement. The muslim race is threat to peace, freedom and civilization and must be eliminated from the face of the earth. problem. peace, freedom and civilization and must be destroyed. problems as law enforcement issues, but this problem is bigger than law enforcement. The muslim race is threat to peace, freedom, prosperity and civilization and must be eliminated from the face of the earth. \_ You need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and parts of Singapore and Philippines too. \_ We need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and parts of Singapore and Philippines too. Oh, and don't forget India. don't forget India and its 100 million mullahs! \_ India? \_ India? You mean Pakistan? \_ And the Hsinjiang (sp?) province in China too. YES: . NO: .. \_ Wow, chamberlain lives! \_ Don't be an idiot.  2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22403 Activity:nil 9/12 Bush to declare war on Jihad.  2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22399 Activity:high 9/12 www.stratfor.com/home/0109112355.htm US and counter terrorism. \_ What got to me in this article (which is why I posted it) is the notion that, even if we find a single 'corporate' entity to pin this on, that it's not going to be over. That this likely to be covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years. We may be facing many more inscidents of the type we just experienced. this on, that it's not going to be over. That this is likely to be a covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years. We may be facing many more incidents of the type we just experienced. I find this somewhat disturbing. \_ I think if we allow ourselves to declare war against something other than a nation, we can throw away all the legal principles and counter-attack and kill as needed. \_ The idea is, the US marches in to afganistan, says "We know you are hiding Bin Laden: turn him over, or be counted as part of his organization -- this makes you a target". \_ The idea is that we drop a few dozen h bombs from palestine to paksitan. We make the middle east a wasteland for all eternity. \_ Why don't we send in the commandos to get that bastard? \_ because previously, that would be an act of war. Happily, we're now at the point where we dont care if we have to declare war to do so. have to declare war to d oso. \_ Man that site is slow.  2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22390 Activity:high 9/11 Some mass email I got. look for original quote on www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm There will be a great thunder (collapsing of buildings),Two brothers (World Trade Buildings) torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures (America), the great leader will succumb(whoevers in charge of destruction), The third big war will begin when the big city is burning(New York)" - Nostradamus 1654 \_ wouldn't "the fortress endures" be more like the Pentagon? \_ feh. There will be a great thunder (i farted), two brothers torn apart by Chaos (my shits) while the fortress endures (my ass), the great leader will succumb (me), the third big war (battle with constipation) will begin when the big city is burning (my hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway). \_ Nostradamus didn't say this, see http://fury.com/article/925.php great leader will succumb (me), the third big war will begin when the big city is burning (my hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway).  2001/9/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22360 Activity:very high 66%like:22353 9/9 Take the red pill: http://www.wholeearthmag.com/ArticleBin/374.html \_ i will save the rest of you the trouble: "capitalism bad, communism good". \_ If that is what you got from it, I question your reading comprehension skills. It is no way complimentary of comprehension skills. It is no way complementary of communism. \_ I love it when morons criticize people. "Duh, your reading comprehension sucks." Look up "complementary", it doesn't mean what you think it means. \_ Your vocabulary sucks too. "comlementary" != "complimentary". Look it up. He, unlike you, used the word correctly. \_ this is unfair. someone corrected the original post. \_ well, okay, maybe just "capitalism bad". not sure what other point the overlong drivel had. at some point i ceased caring. \_ I think either the article failed to point out that the USSR, being the biggest communist country, also did more or less the same things as mentioned in the article, or it purposely avoided that fact. \_ What does USSR have to do with it? \_ The article seems to blame warfare and imperialism on capitalism, while in fact those problems were common to both capitalism and communism. It's like when someone finds that a big percentage of students in every university cheats in their exams, he writes an article on the topic "a big percentage of students in University biased. X cheats in their exams". It's not incorrect, but it's unfair. \_ I guess that is one way to think about it. But I don't know anyone who seriously advocates a communist dictatorship as a response to the problems of limited democracy and corporate control of the media. both capitalism and communism. biased. \_ I guess that is one way to think about it. \_ sorry, i couldn't get past the stupid matrix analogy. "The propaganda lies of yesterday were recorded and became consensus history--the fabric of the matrix." I just can't make myself believe that anyone who could say this with a straight face has anything reasonable to say. \_ Donate all your belongings to PETA and go live in a cave deep in the forest. \_ DEEP in the forest. I don't want to run into you on a random hiking trip. \_ People for the Eating of Tasty Animals?  2001/9/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22353 Activity:high 66%like:22360 9/7 http://www.wholeearthmag.com/ArticleBin/374.html \_ "Escaping the Matrix. What if consensus reality is a fabricated illusion? Are you ready for the red pill?"  2001/7/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic, Computer/SW/WWW/Server] UID:21955 Activity:nil 7/25 http://www.wikipedia.com Contribute your E190 research paper to posterity  2001/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21516 Activity:moderate 6/14 Are high-tech companies required by law to hire minorities (African American or Native Americans)? If the law requires Southwest and United Airline to hire fat ugly women, why doesn't the law require IBM or Intel to hire non-Asians? Or such law is already underway? \_ the law requires that you can't reject an applicant because s/he is ugly and fat, unless someone who is not ugly or not fat also applies for the same job. In that case, the law requires that there is a reason why the ugly is not preferred or that the fat is not preferred for reasons other than for the sake that the fat is fat, and the ugly is ugly. \_ the law requires that you should read this: http://www.e-sheep.com/apocamon \_ and i thought i'd never see the word "downloadeth"... \_ holy shit that is hilarious. \_ yeah. i thought you guys would get a kick out of the 7 eyed sheep.  2001/5/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21262 Activity:high 11/7 This is a very, very proud day for us! Especially me, George W, beat Al Gore! It's just like David and Goliath, only this time, David won! \_ More like the Battle of Marathon. The Greeks defeated the Persians ensuring that peace, freedom, democracy and prosperity would survive for all time. I shudder to think of the state of this country, her freedoms and her prosperity if a idiot like Gore had won. \_ Yeah, it would have been great. Instead we now have to deal with an even bigger idiot named George. \_ George may not be the smartest kid on the block, but at least he knows that tax cuts are good, building power plants is good, helping american corporations is good, missle defense is good. So far is biggest mistake has been in not parking the USS Enterprise in the South China Sea and bombing the RED CHINESE COMMIE SCUM out of existence. Instead of flying P3s, we should be flying B2s with fully armed nukes over Shangi. \_ Great just what this country needs: another bullshit war staged expressly for the purpose of bolstering weak-ass public opinion polls. *sigh* Might help the economy I suppose. I mean, what's a few million chinks mean to anyone, right? \_ "bullshit war"? I'm talking about the battle for freedom, prosperity and democracy against the forces of totalitarianism, communism and evil, but I guess that doesn't mean much to you. \_ troll harder. Faster! Harder! Shove that troll in me and make me scream like the whore I am!  2001/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21230 Activity:very high 5/10 From McVeigh's own words, censored by the US Media: \_ censored my ass. this is old news. "Therefore this bombing was meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centres within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operations, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy. Additionally, borrowing a page from US foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah federal building was morally and strategically equivalent to the US hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations." -FC \_ Why would anyone bother to censor crap like this? And if it was censored, how did you get the quote? \_ How do we justify calling it crap? I'd like to see him hanged, but his statement above doesn't seem illogical. \_ He's a whack and a mass murderer and his 'statement' about being some sort of warrior for good and the american way is, at best, just an incredibly lame rationalization. It's crap. \_ us bombing iraq is a state taking action against another state. someone bombing a us building, is a citizen against the state. the rules of engagement are different and methods of enforcement are different. also, if iraq could, it would retaliate against US. in the same way that US it retaliating against mcveigh. \_ I dont understand what the problem is about paying some schmuck$1mil to do exactly what mcveigh did, and leave the country. If mcveigh did that, he never would have been caught. But apparrently iraq doesnt wish to waste its money like that. Its not a "cant", its a "wont". Because if they did that, and iraq was discovered as the instigator, the US would bomb the crap out of iraq. This whole iraq "issue" would have been resolved a long time ago if there was all-out war between the US and iraq. \_ Who really cares what a whack job like McVeigh thinks?
 2001/4/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:21049 Activity:high 4/20 Stupid protesters. They should study history. Idiots don't understand globalization prevents war by making countries dependent on trade. \_ although the "interdependence theory" is one many people argue for [see e.g. Rise of the Tradin State by R. Rosencrance] the naive version is simply not true based of the evidence. You think Germany and the rest of Europe didnt have complicated trading relationships in the early 1900s? --psb [see e.g. Rise of the Tradin State by R. Rosencrance] the naive version is simply not true based of the evidence. You think Germany and the rest of Europe didnt have complicated trading relationships in the early 1900s? --psb \_ (Though if they don't play by the rules, we beat them up, like Iraq) So in the end they shouldn't be protesting the loss of jobs, it's better than the loss of lives. - ex-protestor/communist \_ And we declared war on Iraq because of our trade agreements with Kuwait... \_ because by disrupting the flow of oil to heavily dependent europe and japan, it would affect the global econ.
 2001/4/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21040 Activity:high 4/20 Why do we still have sanctions against Iraq when obviously the Iraqi gov't does not care? \_ "obviously". You make this statement based on what? \_ the Iraqi gov't does not capitulate even though the Iraqi people and children suffer and die. So simple logic tells me that our sanctions hurt the innocent and do not accomplish our goals. \_ Simple logic tells us no such thing. "The children suffer and die", whose fault is that? Its the fault of the children's parents. If the parents cared about thier children, they would overthrow the iraqi gov. and establish a free society that wasn't interested in state sponsored terrorism. Since the parents don't do that, it is logical that they don't care about thier children and thus why should we care? And furthermore, why are the dependent on supplies from the US to survive? Can't they live on what they make in thier own country? No, uh, then they have to play by our rules or suffer the consquences. If you want my stuff, then be prepared to deal with my terms. \_ This is the most childish agrument I've heard. Let's suppose for one moment that you don't like the US government, why don't you overthrow it to show the iraqi parents 'how to do it'. Maybe it's time you get out of soda hall and see the real world. \_ You miss the point. The original argument is as suspect as the one advanced here. Both are equally invalid. \_ Yeah maybe you should try. But know what, you will fail. Why? Because this is the greatest nation on the face of the earth and quite possibly in all of god's creation. \_ like above post says, this argument is ridiculous. the government controls the military. a bunch of starving people can't just overthrow the gov't. the eastern bloc communist countries coudn't just revolt. and it isn't just a US sanction, the US maneuvered the UN into a UN sanction by forgiving a bunch of debts in return for votes. \_ Yeah, like Solidarity in Poland didn't overthrow the government? And the founding fathers didn't overthrow the government? And the Indian National Congress (literally lead by starving peasants) didn't overthrow the government. The list goes on. Machine guns may kill a few people, but the will of the people will eventually triumph. If the people in iraq are unwilling to do anything about thier conditions, its thier problem not mine. And what is this BS about the UN getting "manipulated". Its about F'ing time they did something our way. Its not enough that the UN gets my Tax $s, they want to spend it the way that they want. Screw that. As long as its our$s at work, its our way. The UN wants different, let 'em earn thier own money. Until the UN should STFU. If you think that our way is the wrong way you are welcome to leave the US and go live in whatever 3rd world hell hole suits you better. \_ Our goals being what? Iraq still has a nothing army and isn't militarily in a position to hurt anyone outside their own borders. Mission accomplished. You thought we had some other goals? Sanctions are about isolation. Iraq is isolated. \_ okay fine, with this argument you admit the US does not care about human rights. so what then gives us the right to prattle about human rights to china? \_ No it doesn't. It says the world isn't the nice little black and white place you want it to be. \_ no, it's about the US fucking over people so that soccer moms can keep driving their SUVs. \_ No its about the jealousy of other nations that we have enough prosperity for our "soccer moms" to drive SUVs. We worked hard for it and they want to take it away via state sponsored terrorism. We have every right to prevent them from doing that. \_ we care about human rights. The people in iraq are oppressed by the current government. There are only two ways to set them free. Bomb the current government out of existence or starve it out of existence. Starving is cheaper than bombing, though bombing would be quicker. I favor starving, since its cheaper. \_ bombing is more fun. I love those CNN giant type "WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST!" headlines on the tube. \_ So is there some sort of CNN conspiracy where CNN backs all wars, otherwise CNN would have no business? \_ This is the problem. If we truly believed the rhetoric of Bush and Bush Jr. we should have destroyed the Iraqi government like we destroyed the Nazi government. And if they are doing threatening things we should do it now. Otherwise sanctions just 'kill babies'. If you think about it the US probably kept Saddam in power because it serves US interests. It lets us keep a firm grip. \_ eventually they will all die, and we will send in our oil companies to run the place and we get cheap gas. \_ so what happens if we lift the sanctions and the iraqi government starts funding programs of weapons of mass destruction targeted at the US? - non troll \_ well they are doing that anyway right? or we wouldn't have sanctions, eh? besides, china funds weapons of mass destruction targeted at the US and we don't have sanctions on them. what i'm saying is our methods don't solve the problem, they only hurt the innocent. \_ we should have sanctions on China. I agree that sanctions don't solve the problem, but its better than bombing. \_ See above about our goals. And there are degrees to things. Funding isn't an either/or deal. They might still have mass weapons programs but they're a shadow of what they could be if there weren't sanctions in place. The world is not black and white. \_ i agree sanctions suck and kill babies, but I can't think of a better solution. \_ never fear, the us is gearing up for another hot war in the persian gulf. Haven't you noticed all the military propoganda on the tv these days? Start paying attention and it'll become clear. We'll be at war again within a year. :( \_ what's wrong with that? i want to watch some real violence/death on TV.. not enough of it. besides the iraqi are secretly arming. the coalition has fallen apart. \_ The Iraqis are not secretly arming. They're doing it quite blatantly.
 2001/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20818 Activity:nil 3/16 So if you go to http://cnn.com you will see 'Puffy'Combs found not guilty". Lets see, there's a campaign reform bill, a sub accident, mideast problems, a hijacking in Saudi Arabia, and Mir is about to come tumbling down and somehow CNN manages to get a story about some rapper waving a gun around on the front pages. \_ The problem started when you "go to http://cnn.com". Why would you go to a crap news org like cnn for anything worth knowing?
 2001/1/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Health/Disease/General] UID:20456 Activity:very high 1/27 Iraq has nukes? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000118613908976&rtmo=Qw9Q9pzR&atmo=Qw9Q9pzR&pg=/et/01/1/28/wiraq28.html \_ This hasn't been picked up by any of the major wires. Perhaps there's a reason. \_ Perhaps. And the "major wires" are the source of all truth? If it isn't on the AP wires, it can't possibly be true? The "major wires" always tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and successfully report on every event on the entire planet? Uhm... ok. If you want to believe that. I'm not saying the story is true. I'm saying that the "major wires" aren't as big a deal as you seem to think. The story may or may not be true, thus the "?" at the end. \_ and Sadam has blood cancer
 2001/1/8-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20267 Activity:moderate 1/7 Just saw Traffic. 2.5 hours is way too long to simply tell the message that we're badly losing the War on Drugs. \_ Maybe if you took some drugs it would change the time. \_ Maybe if you considered how much worse things would be without the "War on Drugs" you'd see that 2.5 hours is way too long to spend on a bad message/propoganda. \_ traffic was not propoganda and i dunno what "bad message" you thought it had. it presented a pretty unbiased view of wtf is going on in the "war on drugs" and how it affects people on various sides of it. i thought it was very well done and was thought-provoking. it didn't tell you what to think at all. \_ An unbiased view? What drugs are you on? It's pretty obvious where the director and the writer stand on this issue. Those 2.5 hours are used to _convince_ you that it's a losing war. And a good 2.5 hours it was, too. It's worked on you and the original poster, hasn't it? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, too. But I think you had better bring a spare brain the next time you go see a Hollywood movie, kid. \_ the point of the movie was not that it's a losing war. that is already obvious to anyone with a brain. \_ Who would be worse off now? Prison guards? Corrupt policitians? Anyone else? \_ THE CHILDREN! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! \_ Well, ok, I didn't actually see it and don't really care one way or the other but I do object to the propoganda spew about "losing the war on drugs" from the original poster. No one has any idea either way what this country would be like for better or worse or in what ways without the anti-drug thing. \_ The war on drugs didn't stop Keanu! \_ And I'm sure we're all better off for it. Ask his (dead) buddy, River Phoenix. But, oh, you might not remember him. \_ is this a troll? in case it isn't, the possibility that a substance can be abused doesn't mean it's morally "wrong" to use, much less warrants a law. by your argument, alcohol should be outlawed, too. \_ GUNS dont kill people. People kill people.
 2001/1/7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20263 Activity:nil 1/5 Yet another Republican war continues killing innocents long after the war is over.... http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010105/80/aur7g.html
 2000/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:19431 Activity:high 10/7 National Debt culprits: Johnson(D) $51,085 M 3.2%/yr \_ guns and butter Nixon(R)$133,604 M 6.7%/yr \_ vietnam Ford(R) $171,230 M 14.1%/yr \_ WIN = whip inflation now Carter(D)$275,676 M 10.4%/yr \_ national malaise Reagan(R) $1,780,214 M 23.6%/yr \_ reaganomics / military build-up Bush(R)$1,467,350 M 13.5%/yr \_ see above \_ sharp increase one year prior to gulf war Clinton(D) $1,496,997 M 4.7%/yr \_ what can i say? \_ point of inflection 1 year after being sworn into office. someone had to undo what bush and reagan did. \_ Debt, shmebt. Now that he finally has a real crisis to deal with, he shows how useless he really is. -John \_ what's the real crisis? oil prices? if so, ride bike!  2000/5/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:18308 Activity:nil 5/20 Why was the engineering commencement so dead this year? No entertaining flying tortillas really, and least not to the extent of '98 where where were flying like a whole barrage of Gulf War missiles... then some old fucker came up and told us not to "throw that shit around."  2000/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:17892 Activity:very high 3/30 I don't necessarily have a problem with affirmative action, but I think it's strange that some companies have affirmative action programs AND claim not to discriminate based on race. Affirmative action specifically discrimates in favor of certain races for an allegedly good cause, but it still discriminates. It seems like these companies should either say the have affirmative action progromas or say they don't discriminate based on race but not both. What do other people think? I am missing something or do most corporations and universities have contradictory policies? \_ If a particular race maintains a percentage of the population in general and a company tries to maintain that same representation in its work force, is that discrimination, or just attempting to keep the playing field equal? \_ If society maintains an unfair playing field by not providing funding towards lower income communities so we get a perminant lower class since they have no opportunity for education and thus no chance at a decently paying job, where would you try and create equal footing for all? Give more money to schools and social programs, have hiring preferences for unqualified individuals or build prisions? \_ Such companies can be sued (likely successfully) for discrimination. \_ Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the whacky left. It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich white people feel better about themselves at the expense of others. It also keeps the blacks from rioting too often. \_ do you believe in AA based on income? or childhood living conditions? \_ I thought AA was a great thing. It helped me get over my alcholism. There should be an anonymous club for every other controlled substance. \_ Only merit should differentiate people. \_ how come white people with less merit before AA got the jobs? \_ though I commiserate with the sentiment, I think this point is, at best, specious without some kind of justification. \_ I don't see any 'sentiment' here, just a racist remark. \_ If you see a racist remark, then you see a sentiment. Learn the language before you try to split hairs. \_ I'm just saying that it's hard to call it an egalitarian society if the system is in any way biased against a significant portion of the population. \_ Of course it is. I am more biased against blacks than whites because blacks robbed me and beat me up a lot more often than whites. I am merely learning from data. Would you rather I _wasn't_ biased against them? And don't give me this 'they are products of an unfavorable environment' shit. People have free \_ Your views on war are somewhat naive. The idea in war is to destroy your opponents will and ability to fight by any means necessary. If a high body count lands you this goal, great. Realistically, though, a high body count is very unlikely to be sufficient. Look at Vietnam: the US killed something like 10 times as many people as it sustained in casualties. But the NVA were still willing to fight, long after American determination petered out due to POLITICAL and SOCIAL pressures. \_ [vietnam crap deleted] oops. sorry. will. They are not products of their environment. Some just choose to be nasty. \_ Yer walking home in the middle of the night and you see a group of (1) young black men in dark puffy jackets \_ actually, you shouldn't feel ashamed about this stereotype. I was in a hurry to see my friend one saturday evening and pay him back the money i owed him ($40). I passed a bunch of young black men in dark puffy jackets, although my first instinct was to hang back and let them walk ahead. Anyhow, I pass them, I hear a bunch respect. I made up my mind about such people on a case by case basis. But if forced to generalized about of snickers behind me, didn't pay attention to it. Anyhow...I get to the darkness of the bridge at Moffitt Library, and suddenly hear rapid footsteps behind me and I realize I am totally fucked. Before I have a chance to turn around these same fuckers that I passed, one of them puts an armlock around my neck and demands my money. and you know the rest... what makes me angry is that they laughed when they left, and i had to deal with a sore neck from getting choked really hard and the shitty task of canceling all my credit cards. and of course the feeling of being violated.. i was already in a pissed off mood. and this happened at 10:30 p.m., northside... be especially careful during summer folks, and pay attention to those stereotypes, they're not entirely a bad thing.... (2) young, bald white men in torn leather jackets and spiky hair \_ How can you be bald and have spiky hair at the same time? Sounds like a good depiction of Cafe Berlin. (3) computer geeks I think it's safe to say that most white people fear 1 > 2, and most black people fear 2 > 1. I think the poster above is white. \_ That's an extremely ego-centric and short sighted view point that sounds much too focused on self-pity to be real. Are you trolling? \_ I am not trolling. I care about myself more than about people who beat me up. I am sorry if this is perceived as ego-centric. -- original poster \_ *sigh* Ever heard of objectivity? It's kind of useful when devising laws that apply to _everyone_ and not just your victimized little self. \_ I thought it was blacks who were bitching about being 'victimized.' I am not bitching I am just telling you why _I_ personally discriminate against blacks. \_ Two wrongs don't make a right? *shrug* I still think I'm being trolled, but whatever. You might want to learn how to format your motd posts correctly, though. \_ It really isn't a troll. I have worked with intelligent, successful black people, whom I admire and respect. I have made up my mind about such people on a case by case basis. But if forced to generalize about blacks as a whole, my view will be negative, based on my past experiences with blacks as a whole. \_ You have experience with blacks as a whole? Wow. How much time did it take to meet all of them. Or did you mean that you had experience with a statistically significant random subset of blacks? \_ I generalize data that I have. If there is more data, I will change my opinion, if the data tells me to. If you don't like my opinion argue with my data. \_ Actually, it sounds more real than troll to me. It has a thread of logic. \_ Were they right-handed or left-handed? Surely you're more biased against righties or lefties as a result, right? \_ The aforementioned acts were committed by blacks far more often than is warranted by the relative percentage of blacks in the general population. \_ actually, it's historically backed. \_ What is historically backed? This 'sentiment' is not even semantically valid. Less merit than who? \_ Less merit than who? \_ what about white only bathrooms? \_ What about green-only trolls? \_ It's not right to kill people, but in war the idea is to kill as many people as possible. What do other people thing? Am I missing something or does society have contradictory mores? (Markup was necessary to reduce further confusion.) \_ [vietnam crap deleted] Oops. Missed the sarcasm. Sorry. \_ Short answer: It's not federally-defined "discrimination" if it's affirmative action. The word when used in HR policy has the federal meaning. \_ i.e. "Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the whacky left. It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich white people feel better about themselves at the expense of others. It also keeps the blacks from rioting too often." \_ Notice that short answer was more fact than opinion based. \_ Notice that the short answer obsequiously (or perhaps conspiratorially) accepts that the government can redefine english words in whatever way happens to fit thier political agenda or best obscures (contradicts) reality despite all/any reason. \_ ^redefine^add a legal definition to Please reflect on the relative benefit of AA in the 1960s and whether AA is a successful policy today, in 50 words or less. \_ The benefit (or lack) of AA is irrelevant to *my* criticism of the perversion of the language. What is so damn hard about actually saying/writing what is meant? That society has a "legal definition" of a word that is actually contradictory to the original definition is an obvious sign of intellectual/legal dishonosty and/or sloth. \_ I agree. This is the point I was addressing when I started the thread. Whether or not AA is good is independant of the fact that Equal Opportunity statements are contradictory to AA. Does anyone have a response to this abuse of language issue? I'm not trolling. It's just that the AA policy and the Equal Opprutnity statements which every organization makes seem blatantly contradictory. When something that seems so obviously wrong is accepted without question it makes me wonder if I'm missing an important point. Therefore, I would like to see a response or URL making the case for the other side of the issue. Thanks. \_ Please reflect on why it's okay for black people to make jokes about black people and white people, but not okay for white people to joke about black people, in 50 words or less.
 1999/9/9-10 [Reference/RealEstate, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:16489 Activity:low 9/9 That lightning storm was cool. \_ tstorm caused by 9-9-99 problem. read about it at http://www.nytimes.com \_ Make sure to watch again the next time I do yer mom. \_ You couldn't handle my mom, little boy. \_ my mom neither. She's evil. \_ Yeah, especially if you lost power or had your house burn down. \_ Yeah, and steak knives are cool until *A RAVING MANIAC KILLS YOUR WHOLE FAMILY IN FRONT OF YOUR VERY EYES WITH ONE*!!!!!! Did you have your house burn down? Find some fucking joy. \_ Yes, I did. Thanks for asking.
 1999/3/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15644 Activity:insanely high 3/24 I take it U.S. Russian relationships aren't going to well right now. \_ Hey, we had to test those 2 Billion dollar bombers somewhere. \_ Doesn't matter. They complain, we withold the food/food aid, they shut up. \_ and then lob a few nukes to prove they're still important. \_ First Iraq, now Yugoslavia. Maintaining world order, all right! But who's going to stop us if someday we start bombing other countries for a bad cause? \_ someday start? why are we bombing yugoslavia again? \_ I thought we're stopping the Serbs from killing Albanians. No? \_ exactly. there's a pretty systematic killing machine there right now, killing by ethnicity. for once i am pleased to see that we are doing something about it. \_ When we do something about it, you can be pleased. Air strikes have never changed any government's policy about anything. Hello? Iraq? 7+ years? \_ Help the Albanian terrorists kill Serbs is more like it. \_ Now, now... both sides are in the wrong. Don't play favorites with history. \_ I thought Clinton only bombs other nations when his own ass is in trouble and he needs to divert attention. \_ Must be that Hillary was going to file for divorce so he had to bomb someone and start a world war to distract the press and public. \_ Didn't you see the X-files? Saddam was some schmo they found in Iowa that waves his magic wand whenever they want to distract the public's mind. \_ so whys he in trouble now? \_ See? Its working. We dont know why he is in trouble. \_ Clinton IS in trouble over China. That's why we bomb. \_ Sign your name below if you are spying for China \_ me! me! \_ Me too! -Chinese spy allowed to hire other Chinese spies as my assistants on top secret nuclear projects.
 1999/3/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15521 Activity:very high 3/2 After months of denying it, US government finally has been exposed that she has been using UN as a disguise \_she? of her spying operations in Iraq. Wouldn't it be funny that it turns out Iraq has been telling the truth all along and US has been lying. \_ Separate the posts with a blank line, twink. \_ double-twink. Of COURSE they were. Any intelligent person would figure they were. But leaking this is literally "a breach of national security". Someone may deserve to get executed for treason on this one. Someone employed by a newspaper. The US agent(s) may still be in the area. \_ Uhm, yeah, so what? The US was spying on Iraq? BFD. I sure *hope* the US was spying on Iraq. It would be totally stupid to do otherwise. You had a point? \_ I absolutely agree. There is only enough room for 1 aggressive country with weapons of mass destruction on Earth. \_ Take your commie leftist multi-polar one-world pro-UN bullshit elsewhere. This is America and I'm an American and fuck all you anti-American, pro-foreigner wimps. Go have some pot stickers and vodka and think back longingly to the way the world would have been if either communist or fascist dictators had taken over the world. Without a strong America, you'd be goose stepping on your way to Brainwashing 100a if you were even alive. More likely, you'd be dead or in a camp or in the army depending on your GoodThink and genetic structure. Asshole. \_ Attention: the gift store is all out of Bort license plates. I repeat, we are all out of Bort licesnse plates. \_ All hail the Lincoln Brigade! \_ Buy a bumper sticker and chill out, dude. -John
 1998/12/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15127 Activity:very high 12/18 Why can't the media be consistant about when Ramadan starts. It starts when the young crescent moon is sighted. This will be on Sunday night in Iraq, yet even CNN has claimed, or quoted others as saying, that Ramadan started Friday night and that it starts on Saturday night. Friday night in Iraq, it wasn't even new moon yet, and the crescent moon can't usually be seen until a day or 2 after it is new. \_ wanna see my moon? \_ Muslims not welcomed at CSUA. Fuck off \_ you racist. get the hell out of berkeley. \_ Don't be stupid. Berkeley is the most racist place I've ever been. Orange County was less racist and they were far less hypocritical about it as well.
 1998/12/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15121 Activity:insanely high 12/17 Muslims condem the US strike and are boycotting Prince of Egypt! \_ it's 'condemn' you twink.-!tom \_ He means a con-modulator/de-modulator. \_ No, it's "condom". \_ unless you're talking about the merger between Compaq and Tandem, in which case it's either "comdem" or "tampaq"... \_ no, it's just "Compaq" -- bitter tandem employee \_ why bitter, at least your stock is worth \$ now -- oj, way ex-tandem \_ if only they gave me stocks. Oh no! What are we going to do? http://www.cnn.com \_ Attack the Muslims! \_ American Muslims strongly condemn US bombings of Iraq, and remind President Clinton, and all those who support his action, that Iraq is NOT a democracy and that Saddam Hussein's policies DO NOT reflect the will of the Iraqi people. Bombing innocent Iraqi civilians & their property, therefore, is unequivocally immoral and prohibited by international law, as it is a serious violation of universal principles of human rights. (Bombing Iraqi facilities thought to contain weapons of mass destruction are in most cases located in highly populated centers). The timing of the bombing also raises serious questions about how credible IS the Iraq threat to US interests? It is important to remember that when the Lewinsky affair first became public, that President Clinton attempted to distract the nation's attention by threatening to attack Iraq. When the Starr report was first released, Clinton attacked the sovereign nations of Sudan and Afghanistan. And, now on the eve of what would have been congressional debate on his possible impeachment, Clinton is bombing Iraq. Bombing Iraq will only kill innocent civilians and worsen Iraqis desperate situation following seven years of sanctions. The sanctions have resulted in more than a million deaths, of which 750,000 were children below the age of five. Access the International Action Center (IAC) website on the effects of UN sanctions on Iraq /www.iacenter.org > Bombing Iraq will only bolster Saddam's position with the Iraqi people as protector of his country's sovereignty against the US, and further jeopardize US relations with the people and governments of the Middle East, which work against US interests in the region. I pray for the end of the bombings, for the besieged people of Iraq, for the relatives of the dead and injured, and for the welfare of the Iraqi people who have suffered long enough in the hands of Saddam Hussein, and now, by direct US actions. \_ What does "Prince of Egypt" have to do with bombing Iraq or Muslims? \_ Possibly because he supports blowing the shit out of Iraq, and he is muslim? \_ Moron. "Prince of Egypt" is the new animated movie about Moses. \_ The oil protected in the Gulf war is equivalent to the excess oil needed to keep fuel-inefficient SUV's operating in the U.S. STOP DRIVING!
 1998/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14873 Activity:nil 11/1 Microsoft fears the penguin. http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html \_ "watch out for the penguins"
 1998/11/1-3 [Health, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14864 Activity:low 10/31 Headline news: http://www.cnn.com "Hello, UN Weapon Inspectors. We need to hide our weapons of mass distruction again. Please come back later when we are done. Thanks." Happy Pagan Satan Worship! \_ Ignorant tweak. Satan is a Christian concept. Halloween is a Pagan concept. Dumb shit Christians jammed Satan into the historical Pagan concepts. Pagans don't worship Satan. I'd say you should stay off the MOTD if you're going to be such an idiot, but if everyone followed that advice, there'd be nothing but lame job offerings. \_ Case in point: Halloween is not remotely pagan. November 1st is called 'All Saints Day' or 'Hallowed Day' and the eve of the celebration 'Hallowed Eve' which mutated to 'Halloween' A Christian concept through and through, for a change. \_ Yep. 'Pagan' is a lame Christian word which tried to mean 'not Christian' but eventually came to mean, 'a religion which is not one of the big 5', so since Satanism is a Christian sect (admitted a perverse one), a Satanic is not a Pagan.
 1998/10/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14751 Activity:high 10/7 Can you name all the Muslim countries on earth that is not at war with other countries? \_ Idiots! All of you. There answer is, there aren't any. \_ NO MORE BONGO BURGER FOR YOU. I AM OUTLAWING YOU. \_ Racist pig. Can you name all the white male dominated western countries that are not at war with other countries? \_ Yes! WHITEY IS THE PROBLEM!!! KILL WHITEY!!! IF YOU'RE NOT NOT A RACIST, KILL THE NEAREST WHITE MALE NOW!!! Crazy Muslim hot-headed hypocrite bigots will rule the world!!! AAAAAAAAAAAALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA! \_ Whitey will pay \_ Never! Whitey will oppress forever! Whitey will beat down the minority women with his oppressive white male giant scaly penis of DOOM. White power! WHITE POWER! -(fucker) \_ Try this: name all Judaeo-Christian countries that have engaged in military actions in the past 5 years, and then do the same for country of muslim, buddist, and atheist dispositions. \_ That's "secular", not atheist. There's a difference. \_ Read carefully. I said disposition, not state religion. US is disposed to Judae-Chiristianity. \_ Ok then, name a country with an "atheist disposition". Are there any that exist that are bigger than my living room? \_ One can argue that China is a little bigger than your living room, and the government has a clear atheist disposition. It is unfortunate that the most powerful avowed atheists in the world are totalitarians, just like the most powerful theists used to be. It provides some ammunition for condemning atheism, though we might retort with the Inquisition, just for starters. But power corrupts the theist and atheist alike. -- schoen \_ One word for you, "Tibet". \_ Am I the only one who wants to make little "nuke" stickers to put over the "free" part of those obnoxious free tibet bumper stickers? \_ Actually, if you had lived in mainland china for an extended period of time (I had for 17 years), you will find life to be more just and fair than, say, the US 30 years ago, and it is catching up fast. As for Tibet, if you are a Tibetan, you have to be a Tibetan Buddhist, period. But then China has millsions of Muslims and Christians, not to mention many more "real" buddhists and Taoists. This, however, does not change the China's disposition as atheist. Similarly, the existence of atheists in US does not change its desposition from being religious. BTW, over the summer I visited regions in the greater Tibet within China, (Tibetan activists claim about 1/4 of China and large area in south Asia as their territory) and found Tibetans life to be much much better than native americans in the US. \_ I did not mean to say anything about the US v. China, or about Tibet. I was just complaining that the Chinese atheists are also totalitarians, which they are. Some American theist political types are also fairly totalitarian, and plenty of people can attest to how little I like the US government. As an individualist, I may have different standards of "just and fair" than other people. On power corrupting businesses, see ~schoen/power.txt. -- schoen \_ I'm flattered that you took the time to type up such a long document in an attempt to convince me of something that i can not be convinced of -- that Government (as opposed to a particular government) is intrinsically "immoral", as you say. \_ You're welcome, and I deny that you "can not be convinced of" that. Someone deleted the "power corrupts businesses" comment, and that's an attempt at the response I would have made, were it not too long for the motd. Note that this particular document isn't really an attempt to persuade you to be anti-statist, only to be pro-capitalist. -- schoen of starvation from the u.s. sanctions? albright claims it is worth it. today is International Hunger Day. \_ Population control: if Family Planning won't do it, then let the military take a swipe at it. \_ Can you say Cambodia. \_ They've been doing it just fine for thousands of years. The mistake was not letting them take it far enough. \_ Mother Nature's been doing a decent job as of late. Let's give her a coupla years before we start nuking everyone. \_ Think of the alternative. 300 million more mouths to feed. That's a *huge* deal. Not everyone can wave their magic wand and conjure up food, land, etc. resources just like that. China would have been a serious hellhole if they weren't practicing coercive population control measures. Human rights, shmuman rights. I'm an Amnesty International member, so yeah, I guess I do care about that, but when it comes down to it, China's actually being *responsible* by trying to limit their growth. Can you imagine doing anything like that in a US context? If Congress or the President were to consider making a resolution merely encouraging people to have no more than 2 kids, he/they would get shot down in a second. Coercive or not, China's policies have worked, and the world is better off for it. \_ Try twisting your head around wildly while thinking of the number of the number of countries that continually increase the amount of home-grown tomatoes each year. Then hop-up-and-down on one foot, pat your head with your left hand, rub your belly with the right, and do your best to name countries that begin with the letter 'W'. \_ Waco? \_ Malaysia \_ They're at odds with Singapore, but it's more of a Malay vs Chinese thing than Islam. \_ They've got their differences with Singapore, but I'd hardly call it a war (see orig. question). \_ have you ever considered the children in iraq who are dying of starvation from the brutal sanctions? albright claims it is worth it. today is International Hunger Day. \_ Kill em all, let God sort em out! (or is it Allah?) \_ I consider them next generation's anti-American terrorists. Better to kill them now when it's easy. \_ saying that all iraqis are terrorists is like saying that all eecs majors are nerds...oh wait, bad example. \_ You're a funny man. 150,000 dead children cracks me up every time. \_ Hey, me too! Cracks me up every time! \_ It's not 150,000 dead children. It's 575,000 dead children. \_ It's not 575,000 dead children. It's 3,575,000 dead children. \_ That's all? 3.5m terrorists dead, how many to go? \_ Fuck you. \_ are you cute? \_ Better 3.5M of them than 1 of us. \_ I'd trade our serial killers for their terrorists at a 1:3.5m ratio. \_ People suck -- Nuke the entire planet, and give the cockroaches a chance.
 1998/3/12-13 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13795 Activity:high 03/12 In unrelated news, the renegade gang known only as the MOTD Nukers were rounded up and killed in a mass execution by the Thought Police, who were disgusted by their tactics and extreme stupidity. "I mean, I thought WE were bad." said Mike Moodswing, Vice President in Charge of Policy, Thought Police Badge #E37R32 \_ This any relation to the ongoing GoZ/ZOG war?
 1998/2/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13729 Activity:kinda low 2/23 contract work at lbl. General coding on Linux/Sparc SMP. if you're interested, contact jon@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU. \_ Pathetic, stupid, whining by non-citizen-foreign-fuck who is lucky to be allowed to come within 200 miles of the coast of this great nation, much less be allowed to live in it has been deleted because it turns my patriotic stomach. You sniveling stupid fuck, GO HOME! How dare you have the nerve to bitch about *anything* in this country? Who the fuck do you think you are? You have no rights. If our fine government decided to stick your foreign spying ass into prison with out due process or just cause for the rest of your stinking, worthless miserable, whining life, I couldn't be happier. Next you'll be crying that we're a bunch of racists for not letting you vote or run for political office. Well, fuck you, go home foreign idiot fuck, you're not welcome here. - descendant of a non-citizen foreign fuck \_ Tell me that you have been sacarstic about those who talked like you do. That's the only way I could thought of to give you credit. \_ Gee, I thought people would only have reason to hate the US because of stuff like unilateral invasions of Iraq, never mind xenophobic ranting. We're starting to sound more and more like the countries we're taught to hate... \_ Actually, just about every country out there restricts the ability of foreign nationals to come in and work. Nevermind when it involves national labs. Complaining about it seems pretty fucking weak to me, too. -jor \_ I don't fear foreigners. I hate them. There's a big difference. You're right, we should completely open our borders like, uhm, uh, NO OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! DUH! They let _you_ vote? As far as Iraq goes, when you're on BART and take in a whiff of Iraqi sponsored anthrax, let us all know what it feels like during your last three agonizing days of life. I don't know where you grew up but no one "taught" me to hate any countries. In fact, I don't "hate" any countries. I don't like whining stupid foreign fucks coming here and bitching that they don't have the rights that real citizens do. Don't like it? TOUGH SHIT! Go back to the stinking third world pit you came from and compare that with your lifestyle here. You've spent too much time eating potstickers, hanging out with BH. - descendant of a non-citizen foreign fuck \_ While I agree that many jobs should be off limits to foreigners, your frenzied response and hatred of third world foreigners suggest to me that you are someone who should be sent back to WWII era Imperial Japanese Army to be slapped around by your lieutenants. No, you do not qualify for the Wermacht.
 1998/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13567 Activity:high 1/26 http://www.lindatripp.com \_ The king of Persia has hundreds of women around him. The prince of India has a very nice harem. The emperor of China has more \_ "has"? china hasn't had an emperor for a long time. --aaron women than the number of students in Berkeley. And I'm sure Sadam has a very nice private chamber too. What's wrong with the president of the greatest power in the world sleeping with a couple of interns? \_ they are ugly. that's the problem. thank you for your time. \_ The countries you named are all fucked up. Thank God (or whoever) this country isn't yet that fucked up. \_ I think Bill should do as he pleases (Clinton and Gates) \_ I agree, just not while representing my country to the world as my President and leader. Gates is welcome to do whatever he pleases within the law. Clinton must adhere to a higher standard while in office. \_ but king, prince, emperor & sadam represent their countries and still do c00l things that most men dream of doing \__Go live in China or Iraq if you love their systems so much. \_ Yup and their countries are all *seriously* fucked up, as are their leaders. Being a real leader isn't about having a harem. Don't fuck over my country so you can wave your penis around, Mr. President. You want cheap whorish sex, go hire some prostitutes. Not on my time, or my dime, Bill.
 1998/1/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:13543 Activity:high 1/21 US sponsors genocide of Cuba! \_ Sad but true. What had Cuba done to warrant an embargo even worse than one given to Iraq? So it has a communist regime, is that a crime? What is this BS from US government that the embargo is meant to promote freedom of speech and crap like that? What about freedom to live? \_ the embargo is the legacy of influential lobbyists funded by people who lost property when castro made cuba a communist state and they are not going to go away anytime soon, they are patient and are just waiting for castro to pass on. \_ AMERICA. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, BUDDY. - danh \_ I think the embargo of Cuba is stupid and does no good, but the US is the only major nation that enforces the sanctions. They can get whatever they want from Canada, France or any of the other 200 countries that do not have restrictions on trade with Cuba. Any genocide is a result of Castro and the Communist government, not of the US embargo. this is unlike the sanctions against Iraq, which were supported by the West for a long time. This is no excuse for hussein's atrocities, but let's keep the facts straight. If you think the problems of the Cuban people are to be blamed on the US embargo, then you have a serious misunderstanding of politics and economics. -fab@csua \_ Wrong. USA punishes domestic and foreign companies that trade with Cuba. \_ this is only partially true. As far as I understand it, the helms-Burton act has only been enforced against a a small number of firms. While a lot of people are pissed, and justifiably so -H-B act is pretty silly, it has made no impact on the trade between cuba and foreign nations. the H-B act is an empty threat in the overwhelming number of cases. Ie, Jesse Helms is just one guy. One cranky Southern guy can't stop world trade. Finally, the US cannot punish firsm which do no business in Cuba. Another good example of what i am talking about is Jordan and Israel. Israel refuses to trade with Jordan, until recently. But trade still happens. All the goods are routed to Cyprus, a neutral country. as I understand it, that is how a lot of US/Cuba trade actually happens. Any foreign firm with US ties could set up dummy companies with no US ties, which is what happens. Of course, since cuba with its present economic system, produces little wealth, its probably not to profitable to try to often. The fact remains: any country that wanted to trade with Cuba, can. Cuba's poverty is not primarily the fault of the US embargo. I recommend removing the embargo so that fact will be totally clear. - fab@csua
 1993/9/10 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:31398 Activity:nil 9/8 The National Performance Review - Vice President Al Gore's report on reinventing government is now available in http://sunsite.unc.edu via WWW, gopher, ftp and wais. (Use "gopher http://sunsite.unc.edu" to get there)
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