Politics Foreign MiddleEast Iraq - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2003/2/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27450 Activity:very high
2/18    Evan picks Zora, further justifying our need to go to war with Iraq.
        \_ My glorious campaign against the blonde bondage queen was a
           great success! -- shussein
        \_ Zora has bigger bosom than Sarah.
        \_ Zora has bigger bosom than Sarah.  That's the reason.
           \_ But DorkBoy had a thing for blondes.
              \_ Really?  I must have missed that part.
                 \_ each round he kept saying, so-n-so "is so hot, she's blond
                    and ...".
                    \_ Choice between bond blondage blowjob girl and girl
                       with bigger tits. Which would you choose?
        \_ Is she the bondage girl?
           \_ No, sarah was the one who did some "fetish modeling"
              \_ ... although she was fully clothed in the modeling, according
                 to the Yahoo news article.
                 \_ I saw the pics.  Very tame and actually more silly than
                    anything else.  I guess one man's fetish is most men's
                    silly and laughable.  She was a gold digger anyway.
        \_ I think Zora was a plant and the show was scripted.
           \_ I don't think she was a plant but the show was at least partially
              scripted.  I'm sure the producers gave him more info than his
              dates and lead him by the nose a lot.  He's no rocket scientist
              or anything.  Oh well, wait, maybe these days he'd qualify....
        \_ did they reveal the deception?  if so, what happened?  Or
           will they have another special called "The Aftermath".
           \_ Yes.  Nothing much.  Yes.
           \_ Zora:     "the good news is, I really was turned off by the fact
                        that you inherited all that money."
              Sarah:    "Did you feel that was something I was concerned with?"
                        she asked, trying to look like it wasn't.
              Evan had already made up his mind before these responses.
              http://csua.org/u/97b (story.news.yahoo.com)
              \_ can someone explain or guess or whatever why his inheriting
                 money is a turn off?  he's still a big dumb jerk.
2003/2/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27446 Activity:high
2/17    I've seen many opponents of an Iraq invasion refer to it as a
        "racist war." I don't understand this. Since the current
        administration is comprised of white people and black people,
        does that mean we can only go to war with countries made up of
        white or black people in order to not have a racist war?
        \_ here's an idea i'm too lazy to implement, but would be a good
           idea.  one file that anyone can append to but no one can delete from
           for pro-war arguments, and one for aniti-war arguments, and we'll
           see what motd poeple come up with on both sides. you know you
           want to do this and see what people write.
        \_ Obviously the rich white people and oreos are oppressing
           the Arab world for oil.
           (wow, it's so easy to think like a liberal!)
           \_ Like so many things, grasshopper, it is easy to do, but
              difficult to do well.
        \_ Yes, something like that.
        \_ only if the people liberated vote democrat, then it's okay
        \_ Most of these nuts think all war is bad.
        \_ oh boy, another strawman argument.  How clever.  -tom
2003/2/14 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27418 Activity:high
2/14    http://csua.org/u/955 (Last letter on page)
        "There really are a lot of good men out there.
         They just happen to be yellow."
         \_ Hoyt Sze!
            \_ anybody have hoyt sze's writings archived somewhere?  I searched
               on google and can't find anything.  I keep hearing about his
               views on asian women/white men, but it's all second hand.  Where
               is the source on this stuff?
            \_ Hoyt was an idiot.  This guy is right.
                \_ he seems to think gay men aren't asian
                   \_ I think the truth is that gay asians are not what he was
                      writing about nor who he was writing for and he's a bit
                      obtuse as a writer. This is not a crime outside of
                      Berkeley, you may be surprised to learn.
        \_ San Francisco women are all Gold Diggers.
2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27417 Activity:nil
2/13    The Boomerang Effect
        Spot on commentary except that about Kosovo.
2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27416 Activity:high
2/14    the u.s. is at its moment of truth (no troll).  we hoped to find a
        smoking gun, but we haven't produced it.  we sent powell in to
        convince the world, but blix threw cold water on his "evidence" a
        week later.  france, russia, and china want expanded inspections,
        not war.  ironically, the u.s. is telling everyone else it's their
        "moment of truth".  all spin, I guess.  we appear poised to strike
        in march.  what will the u.s. do if it can't put forward any proof
        before then?
        \_ Bush will go to war with Iraq no matter what happens. The only
           way out is for Hussein to abdicate. This war was decided upon
           before 9/11.
           before 9/11. -ausman
        \_ Blix did not moisturize Powell's evidence.  The question
                        \_ you sure about that?
           is who has more credibility.  A U.N. that just appointed
           Iraq to lead the disarmament council and Libya to preside
           \_ Those appointments are based on a rotating schedule.  It is
              at best an amusing coincidence.
           over the Human Rights Council, and which receives 30-40% of Iraq's
           oil revenues, or the Bush and Blair administrations.
           The only antogonists to this war are engaging in a blatant
           economic power play. This is proxy war on the Saudis and Islam.
           \_ it seems more like the world is saying:
              you can't have a preemptive war
              \_ There is an alternative. There are operatives on the
                 ground trying to start a guerrilla war. Hussein cannot use
                 his military to fight such a war without US intervention.
                 World opinion would be against him if he killed "his own
                 people". I believe this is the route the US is now
                 pursuing with spec ops already known to be in Iraq. --dim
           \_ The proponents of this war are engaging in a blatant economic
              power play, too.
                \_ The U.S. will be attacked, not Europe.  The U.S. has been the
                   de facto guarantor of international stability for the past
                   50 years, paid for with U.S. tax dollars and US blood.
                   During this time the Europeans grew fat and lazy engorging
                   at the trough of socialism and welfare.  Simulataneously,
                   France did everything in its power to subvert NATO solidarity
                   - nearly crossing the line of treachery.
2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27414 Activity:insanely high
2/13    The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War With Iraq:
        A Macroeconomic and Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth
        \_ We Should  Go to War With France for Fucking up Capitalization
           in the English Language After 1066.
        \_ interesting. this whole war thing stinks of Henry Kissinger.
        \_ his writing style gives him away as an alarmist. take this with
        several grains of salt.
        \_ Interesting article.  Not long ago, the WSJ has an article
           saying that the US dollars used to be propped up by both
           european and east asian buyers, but the european buyers had
           pretty much dried up, so the US dollars is now all propped
           up by asians.  They are the only ones left supporting the US
           budget deficit and trade deficit.  Once that stop, what will
           US government do?  Increase interest rate?  Nah.  Probably
           start printing money.  Need to keep the economy going even if
           it makes us poorer.
                \_ Except there is no substitute for the dollar.  European
                   countries are far worse off then the U.S. and Japan is
                   not large enough.  All other oil transactions are
                   denominated in dollars, so until that changes...
                   \_ Nah, many well respected economists, fund managers,
                      etc. are betting on Europe.  The fruits of economic
                      integration is yet to be realized and profited from.
                        \_ You have to be kidding me.  Both Germany's
                           and Frances pension liabilities exceed 110%
                           of their GDP, unemployment 15%+, they created
                           zero jobs during 90's.
                              their own citizens not foreigners so
                              it won't affect currency.  Bad 90s doesn't
                              mean bad 00s.  Remember 80s and 90s for
                              Japan and US.
                           \_ Pension liabilities will not by itself
                              affect currency.  We are in 00s not 90s.
                              Remember 80s and 90s and Japan and US.
                              Rewards of EU integration are just waiting
                              to be reaped.  Eastern Europe is up and
                              coming.  Euro has already appreciated
                              quite a bit.  I am gonna buy some european
                              or far east mutual funds, ones without
                              dollar hedging.
                                \_ So government debt has no effect on
                                   exchange rates... in your dreams.  Its not
                                   even worth debating if
                                   you believe this.
                                   \_ If the financing is within the euro
                                      area, then it won't.  Foreigners don't
                                      own massive amounts of the euro.  They do
                                      own massive amounts of the dollar.  About
                                      1 trillion in east asia alone.  And that's
                                      just forex owned by the asian governments.
                           \_ 15%??? Where did you get this figure. The
                              real statistic is more like half that.
                              Remember that the US figure is kept
                              artificially low by the 2M in prison
                              and out of the labor pool. If you add
                              them back in, the rates are about the
                              same. US social security has the same
                              underfunded problems as European pensions.
                              Europe doesn't need to create jobs, since
                              their employment pools are not growing.
                              Europe has been focusing on productivity
                              growth, and it is paying off. German workers
                              are the most productive on the planet.
                              The US is in trouble with its huge
                              imbalance of trade and growing deficits.
                              The dollar is going to deflate much more
                              before long.
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27413 Activity:high
2/14    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7396-2003Feb14.html
        Saddam passed a law outlawing ministries from producing WMD.
        Maybe all the anti-war people were right.
        Powell also got dissed by Blix. :P
        \_ This _is_ sarcasm, right?
           \_ nope.  the idea is if expanded inspections turn up something,
              france would feel more comfortable backing punishment.
                \_ Spoken like a historical halfwit.  France can be blamed
                   or partially blamed for every major conflict in
                   the past 120 years, starting with Franco-Prussian war.
        \_ Yeah right, like anyone in the Iraq govt is going to arrest Saddam
           for breaking this law.
2003/2/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:27410 Activity:kinda low
2/14    Regarding the US soldiers raping a korean soldier news.  During the
        first gulf war there were women POWs and they were raped by the Iraqis.
        I remember some media pundit saying that the men get raped too.  I
        always thought it's third world lowlifes that rape POWs.  But after
        reading that korean news, I'm convinced that our soldiers do the same
        in the battlefields.  It's like prison guards, they rape inmates not
        for the sex but for the violence and the power.
        \_ Soldiers are soldiers - all day with a male squad and no fun
           makes those killers hot and randy.  If you can brainwash them
           into killing all of 'them,' then raping 'them' is no problem.
        \_ and you know this because?
        \_ and you share your incoherent ramblings why?
        \_ The Japanese soldires did that to civilians in China during WWII,
           and they were no third world soldires.
           \_ and Korean civilians and Dutch civilians
              \_ Dutch civilians?  Where?
                 \_ Dutch East Indies (a.k.a. Indonesia).
           \_ The vikings, Mongols, Romans, and probably everyone else
              did this to POWs and conquered peoples throughout history
              to establish dominance and de-humanize their caoptives.
              It wasn't right then, and it's not right now.  And now
              that we can stop it, we need to do so.
        \_ American soldiers raped a lot of Vietnamese during that war.
        \_ Tell me the general public can now post to the motd.
           Can people at this school really be this stupid?
           \_ no and yes
2003/2/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27383 Activity:very high
2/12    hey war nerds, who forced out the last UN weapons
        inspection team in Iraq?  Was it the Iraqis, or
        was it the united states?  no this is not a troll.  thanks
        \_ Why would have the US forced out the weapons inspection team?
           \_ Er.  They were pulled because the US was starting bombing.
        \_ Iraqis, sorta. Repeated refusals to allow inspections of palaces
           and limiting access to some facilities had the UN inspectors give
           up and go home. That caused the renewal of sactions.
           \_ If you don't know, just keep your mouth shut
              \_ Actually, the ignorance is telling. My impression is that most
                 Americans have already forgotten that it was the UN that
                 ordered the inspectors out in preparation for US bombing. I
                 think a great many have revised history in their own heads and
                 believe that Iraq ordered them out.
                 \_ And why were they ordered to get out? Because the Iraqis
                    weren't letting them do their jobs. So who's to blame?
                    \_ Do you actually listen to yourself?
              \_ What the fuck do you expect them to do? Inspec the same site
                 hundreds of times?  I know maybe you think they should inspect
                 shopping malls and grocery stores. The Iraqis
                 agreed to cooperate at the end of Gulf War.  Iraq violated
                 the terms of cease fire, the US inspectors left out of
                 frustration and disgust.
                 \_ Wrong.
                   \_ OK So everyone is wrong but you.  Post a reference
                      please? (Not the socialist club either)
                      \_ Ooh. What's the socialist club? Can I join?
        \_ Tony Blair did an interview last week in which he was grilled for
           saying that the Iraqis forced us out. He said that because they
           were not allowed to do their work, they were "essentially forced
           out". So whether you say that the inspectors left because of the
           Iraqis or because of UN inspectors is entirely moot.
                \_ Even your favorite anti-war pedophile Scott Ritter
                   testified before Congress to the effect that the
                   inpsectors were hindered.  Exactly how would you remedy
                   such a situation.  Allow to me guess - like the French,
                   you would recommend Iraq pass a law outlawing WMD.
                   In fact, the Democrats, such as Daschle, Berger,
                   Gore, etc. engaged in vociferous sabre rattling over
                   the issue.  But in the end, like everything, they were all
2003/2/12-7/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27379 Activity:insanely high
2/12    A sober reminder:

        Which of these do you regard as the greatest threat to world peace?
        United States           32%
        N. Korea                26%
        Iraq                    25%
        Israel                   2%
        Commercial Radio         6%

        The scary part is that this poll is conducted by Britian, our
        closest ally.   http://csua.org/u/938
        \_ ...and in other news 30% of software engineers see Cowboy Neal
           as a major threat to world peace.  polls are bullshit.
        \_ This isn't a sober reminder of anything.  This is a cheap troll and
           I'm stunned several of you fell for it.  A shitty cut n paste of an
           old poll.  Jesus F. Christ!  You people are such suckers.  I'm
           going to leave all you "got trolled" fuckers up here so you can see
           yourselves and be ashamed even if your names are unknown.
           \_ Take yer meds and calm down.
        \_ If the UK were attacked, wouldn't you think the poll would
           be a little different?
           \_ Iraq never attacked the US
                \_ dodgin' da queshun eh
                \_ Al Qaeda is in Iraq, no one disputes this now.
                   These fucking Euroweenies are dragging their
                   feet as part of a power play.  Except they are
                   not in danger, it is the US who bears the brunt
                   of terrorist animosity.  Fucking bastards.
                   France used to be a great country until the end
                   of the 19th century.  The slide began when they got
                   their ass kicked by Mexico.  Subsequently, they lost
                   all of their able bodied men in the Franco-Prussian war,
                   WWI, and WWII.  The only men left to repopulate
                   the country were the queers, Communists and
                   other non-combatants who sipped coffee on the
                   Champs d'elysee rather than defend the country.
                   \_ last time I checked, this was a war against
                      Iraqi and Sadam; not Al Qaeda, per se. I'm
                      sure we would have alot more support if the
                      goal was declared as "chasing these damn
                      terrorists wherever they run... now into
                      iraq." That is not the case.
           \_ It's not that they don't like the United States or
              that they like Iraq.  It's simply that they can't
              answer "yes" to the question "Can you trust a very
              powerful United States to act out of fairness
              instead of for their own interest?".  For the
              world, the answer is "No". Of course, they would
              hate an Iraq as powerful as the US, but it isn't.
              \_ that is my point.  I just want to remind those who
                 think US is the center of the universe
                 (I am not in the US right now) that most people
                 in the world see USA as a 800 pound guerrilla
                 who never reluctant to throw her weight around for
                 her self-interest.  This continues act of unconstraint
                 has an interesting effect of building anti-American
                 setement world wide.   -OP
                 \_ Your critique of US foreign policy seems to be somewhat
                    hindered by the fact that your post makes you seem like
                    a complete moron.  I suggest you check your spelling
                    and grammar -- at least consult an english speaking
                    \_ This reminds me of the saying, "what does it mean
                       when someone speaks English with an accent? that
                       he speaks at least one more language than you."
                       Have you ever been outside of the U.S.? what the OP
                       said is nothing new, and it wouldn't surprise me if
                       the majority of the world feels this way, whether
                       admitted or not.  Picking on his spelling and
                       grammar may make you feel like a big man, but it's
                       a pretty poor retort to what we all know the OP meant.
              \_ Read this:
                        \_ More on this.  Saddam had a multibillion nuclear
                           program with 20,000 workers.  Had the Gulf War I
                        \_ More on this.  Saddam's multibillion nuclear program
                           had 20,000+ workers.  Had the Gulf War I
                 It doesn't cover whether it's right or wrong, or how
                 trustworthy the U.S. is, but it explains why the Bush
                 administration is attacking Iraq.  It's also a year old
                        \_ More on this.  Saddam's multibillion nuclear
                           program had 20,000+ workers.  Had the Gulf War I
                \_ You can stop terror by shifting the balance of
                   power in the middle east.  A bold initiative is
                   required, perpetuating the current paradigm will only
                   cause increasing instability.  The question is not
                   what the Socialists in France, Germany, and Belgium
                   think of us, the question is what is right.  None
                   of these countries will be attacked until the US
                   falls.  Then its their turn.  This is a war against
                   Islam, and Iraq is a battle in this war.
                   Changing the regime in Iraq will have profound
                   geopolitical consequences.
                           not taken place, the intelligence consensus is that
                           he would have been nuclear by 1993.
                           \_ Yes, but they still would have been US allies
                              so the situation would be akin to India and
                              Pakistan. Besides, Israel would have bombed a
                              nuke site if they had found it.
                 \_ You can't stop terrorism.  Terrorism is a tactic,
                    just like "stragetic bombing" is a tactic.  You can't
                    declare war on (nor winning against) tactics.
                    \_ yeah, but can you stop terror?
                       \_ By destroying everything that makes you afraid.
                \_ You can stop terror by shifting the balance of power in the
                   middle east.  A bold initiative is required, perpetuating
                   the current paradigm will only cause increasing instability.
                   The question is not what the Socialists in France, Germany,
                   and Belgium think of us, the question is what is right.
                   None of these countries will be attacked until the US falls.
                   Then its their turn.  This is a war against Islam, and Iraq
                   is a battle in this war. Changing the regime in Iraq will
                   have profound geopolitical consequences.
                   \_ So it is a holy war. Ah, welcome back Crusaders 2k.
                        \_ well duh
                           \_ Do you recall who the fate of most Crusaders?
                                \_ The Crusades were a defensive measure,
                                   doomed from the outset.  Christendom
                                   was on its way out, the West was lucky to
                                   survive.  How quickly we forget that
                                   almost all Islamic lands apart from Asia
                                   were once Christian.
                                   \_ How very European of you. Nice spin try.
                                        \_ Spin = historical facts?
                                   \_ Garbage!  Our esteemed president Bush
                                      is a Christian warrior, and he is kicking
                                      Islamic arse!
2003/2/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27362 Activity:very high
2/10    Powell's going to burst a vessel, Rumsfeld won't know what to do,
        and Bush won't say anything until Friday at the earliest.  I bet
        they didn't expect Putin to publicly back France/Germany on expanded
        \_ Bush does not care what any of these countries think, why should he?
           We will be at war with Iraq in six weeks, tops.
        \_ France and Germany have already admitted Iraq has WMD.  To them,
           the question is one of economics and their trade relationship with
           Iraq.  This is what happens when Greens involve themselves
           in international affairs.
           \_ Wait, kind of like the Union Banking Corporation (director
              Prescott Bush, grandfather of current president) financing
              Nazi industry in WWII?  The only reason US companies aren't
              complaining is because of Sept 11 and bad PR.
                \_ This analogy makes no sense at all.  So you, as an anti-
                   corporate Chomskite, are the arch public relations
                   corporate Chomskyite, are the arch public relations
                   officer for the entire Fortune 500 and speak
                   as their representative?  I guess we are fortunate to
                   have you on the motd.
                   \_ Both of these arguments carry little weight.  I could
                      just as easily argue that Republican Texas-raised Bush
                      and his old cronies seek control over a major oil
                      source to counter OPEC.  After all, Dubya's National
                      Security Adviser has an oil tanker named after her,
           \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either.
                      from where she used to work.
                                             \_ Not "work"; she was on the
                                                board of directors. Hardly
                                                the same thing.
                        \_ And triangulating the Saudis would be a bad idea?
                           We can't go after them directly.
           \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either. It is all about
              economics on both sides.
           \_ I thought it was more about the US having a huge, costly force
              \_It's all about control that extra 8% (whatever) of oil
                reserve.  It's all about expanding the sphere of influence
                into that region.  In the long run, controlling these oil
                reserve worth a lot more than billions of dollars we
                dump... at least what is what the president-I-didn't-vote-
                for think.  This is pure US aggression, imperalism at
                it's finest since the Opium War 150 years ago.
                        \_ Right... the U.S.'s blatant history of
                           naked aggresion and military / economic
                           subversion of its sphere of influence.
                           Anyways, its much better to let the Soviets
                           brilliant histoy of allying itself with militant
                           militant Islam for example.
                           or EU control the region.  Take France's
                           brilliant history of allying itself with
                           militant Islam for example - we need more of
                           this.  Enforcing UN resolutions is
                           imperialism now is it?
                           Where were all of you sanctimonious pacifists
                           when Clinton wanted to do the exact same thing
                           in 1998 or when we saved the EU's ass in the
                \_ You tell em!  Nader in 2004!  Four more years!
                \_ Wasn't the Opium War by the British?
2003/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27355 Activity:nil
2/8     I'm against this war because it's all about oil, but even if
        it isn't I'm not convinced Iraq is harbouring weapons of mass
        destruction, but even if they are I'm against this war because
        the UN has not authorized it, but even if they do I'm against
        this war unless there's an imminent threat, but even if there
        is I'm against this war because an invasion would prove a
        military disaster, but even if it isn't I'm against this war
        because toppling Saddam would increase terrorism, but even if it
        doesn't I'm against this war because the world will see us as
        unilateralist, but even if it doesn't I'm against this
        war because it will cost too much, but even if it doesn't it's
        because we used Iraqi oil to pay for it. See, I told you it's
        all about oil. Besides, what about North Korea?"
        \_ This was really amusing.  Thanks.
2003/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27334 Activity:nil
2/6     Classic freerepublic thread.  Pithy geopolitical analysis.
        My Reservations About War with Iraq
2003/2/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:27323 Activity:very high
2/6     Yesterday at the UN:
        UN French Ambassador:  "this whole issue could be solved if
        Iraq would pass a law banning the production of WMD."
        \_ HAHHAAHHAHA!  I haven't had such a good laugh in a while.
        \_ No worse than the US's "let us invade and we'll show you the WMD
           after we find them. Really."
                \_ France has already acknowledged Iraq has WMD.
        \_ the u.s., uk, russia, china, france all believe iraq is hiding
           their wmd.  russia, china, france think, for good reason, that a
           u.s. attack now would be destabilizing.  the argument has been
           and will always be, 'why look like the world is submitting to
           u.s. hegemony?  saddam can't do anything while inspectors are
           there.  the longer the inspectors are there, the better chance
           they'll find something damning, which can be leveraged.'
           \_ They are hoping for a reach around.
           \_ Nonsense.  While the inspectors waste time, he's doing shit
              in other parts of his very large country.  And then what are
              you going to say when he kicks out the inspectors and announces
              he has a nuke in 6-9 months?  More inspections?  Sanctions?
              Or just welcome him to the nuclear club as the nice guy that he
              is?  Join this world, please.
              \_ france is asking for more inspectors
              \_ Then Iraq joins like Pakistan, India, Israel, and South Korea
                 did. So what? Saddam is a meglomaniac, not suicidal. Power
                 is his kick. And the 6-9 month guess is crap.
        \_ Everytime the inspectors get close to something, Iraqis with
           guns tell them: "You can't go there." They had to get led to
           the empty warheads by their nose, otherwise they wouldn't
           have found those either.
           \_ I think you should check your facts about this ...
        \_ France and Russia have oil deals with Saddam, if the sanctions
           are ever lifted. They want Saddam to behave and stay in power.
           Unfortunately neither of those will happen.
        \_ And don't forget how much business France and Germany have there
           in non-oil deals and how much WMD related shit the Germans have
           been illegally selling them since '91.  All that is going to come
           out and make the Germans look exceptionally bad after Saddam's
           Iraq is crushed.
2003/2/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27282 Activity:very high
2/2     I'm about to buy a magazine subscription. I'm trying to decide
        between: Harpers, The New Yorker, Harper's Bazaar, Vanity Fair,
        and The Economist. Any opinions/suggestions?
        \_ Sign your post. This was one of the better motd threads!
        \_ liberal!
           \_ hm... more of an indictment than a suggestion. But thanks! -op
           \_ The Economist is pretty damned conservative. They are totally
              in favor of bombing Iraq, w/ or w/o the UN.
         \_The Economist seems like somewhat of an odd duck in that selection.
            \_ you mean it doesn't suck? yeah, i agree.
        \_ Quite amusing. I used to subcribe to three of those (Harpers,
           The New Yorker, and The Economist). It really depends on what
           you're into.
           1) The New Yorker -- nowhere near as good as in Tina Brown's
               days, but stil worth reading for (a) the cartoons and
               (b) Seymour Hersch' occasional exposes.
               \_ I can't speak for current New Yorker, but Tina Brown era
                  was, relatively speaking, pretty bad.  Brown sold issues
                  because she was good at hyping the magazine, but not much
           2) Harper's -- give you nice warm fuzzies if you're a
               midwestern small college, Madison Wisconsin-educated,
               Prairie Home Companion-listening type. The articles
               tend to be good, if a bit self-righteous, plus you get
               to read Lewis Lapham's monthly whinings.
           3) The Economist -- I've been a subscriber to this since I was
               seventeen. I joke that it's an excellent British humour
               magazine. Still, it has good international reporting,
               plus has in-depth analyses of a specific country or
               business or trend every few weeks. An excellent way of
               knowing what's going on in the rest of the world, especially
               if you tend to feel your intelligence insulted by
               Time or Newsweek or the like.
               \_ Agreed.  I used to read it exclusively for the news and
                  ignored the bits about business and the economy.  Its
                  politics are refreshingly obvious, which makes them
                  easy to ignore. --erikred
           If you want more details, email me -coganman
        \_ I subscribe to the same three as coganman, but I am letting
           my New Yorker subscription lapse, as half of it is about the
           New York art scene, which I am not interested in. The other
           half has some gems, but not worth wading through, imho. Harpers
           is consistently good, comes once a month and can be read in one
           sitting. The Economist is always well written, but often about
           quite esoteric subjects: how interested are you in the exchange
           rate of the Ringgit, for example, which they seem to write about
           every week. The Economist comes weekly and is quite dense, expect
           to spend 3-4 hr/wk reading it. It is also relatively quite expensive.
           You should add Atlantic Monthly to your list, btw. -ausman
           \_ the new yorker has had some really interesting
              middle east and afghanistan articles lately
           \_ I second the Atlantic Monthly recommendation and recommend
              checking out their website once in a while.
           \_ this has proven to be quite a hard decision. yes, I was
              considering adding Atlantic Monthly to my list as well. I
              am currently living in NYC... so the half of the New Yorker
              about arts in  the city would actually be interesting to me.
              \- the economist before anything else. then the NYker.
                 i like the NYRevBooks too. buy the Atlantic if they have a
                 long article you are interested in. atlantic is pretty cheep.
                 forget the rest. do you have time to read 3mags/wk? --psb
                 \_ I read NY Review of Books online...
        \_ Economist is not as good as it used to be.  There used to be
           more writings about the Ringgit, but now it is more and more
           like Time magazine, with a US-centric view of the world.
           The magazine feels more and more dominated by Yankee editors.
           It's not that they are necessarily wrong, it's just that I might as
           well watch CNN for that.  Still I would take Economist over the other
           two, since I fall asleep reading the other two.
                \- well i agree the e'ist has slacked off a little. however
                   if you want general purpose weekly where the science
                   writing that doesnt have to remind you the nucleus consist
                   of protons and neutrons, pick the e'ist. if you want to
                   not only read an article about the asian currency crisis
                   talking about the USD-ringgit exchange rate, but you want
                   to read an article 5 years later about "new acdemic inter-
                   preations of the asian meltdown", again this is soemthing
                   the economist "economics focus" will write on, but others
                   will not. TIME is written for 8th graders and the e'ist
                      average 8th graders and colleg students, which is
                      minute.  If you read e'ist for a while and have
                   for people who went to college. --psb
                      analysis over time, you will find it at the same level
                      as Larry King Live or 60 Minutes.  It is the same kind
                      packaged to different education background.  You might
                      have information there you do not find mentioned on the
                      rest of the stuff that you read, but if you belive what
                   \_ Yes the difference in the level of actual intelligence
                      subscribe to USA Today only.  It does not cost that much.
                      between e'ist and time is similar to that between
                      average 8th graders and average college students, which
                      is minute.  If you read e'ist for a while and have
                      the attention span or concentration to compare their
                      analysis over time, or if you examine their article on
                      subjects you are familiar with, you will rank it the same
                      as Larry King Live or 60 Minutes.  It is the same kind of
                      stuff packaged to different education backgrounds.  You
                      will have information there not covered on the other
                      things that you might read, but if you belive what
                      you read based on where it is printed, you might as well
                      subscribe to USA Today only.  It has more weight/buck.
                      \- it's not a matter of beliving it all. the relevance
                         is as follows. 1. the articles are shorter because
                         the dont have to include details like "iraq, a country
                         in the middle east, ...". 2. often they indirectly
                         allude to stuff that will give you an extra level
                         of understanding if you are familar with an academic
                         approach to the topic. for examples the terrorist
                         and the time bomb is kind of a classic from philosophy
                         classes. if you are not familar with that, you get
                         some appreciation of the issues taking it at face
                         value. if you are familiar with the "trolly problem"
                         discussion, you get some bonus material. 3. they have
                         have some funny and semi obscure jokes that are fun,
                         like the article "ave atque vale" some issues back.
                         4. in terms of subject material, there is some stuff
                         that will be of interest to the educated classes which
                         you will NOT see on 60min or L. KING. bright people
                         who are not economists will not read econometrica
                         or other professional econ journals or working papers
                         but they may be interested now and then on interesting
                         reasearch developments on say refinements to the
                         neoclassical growth model, post solow, or to say
                         a new theory about NAIRU ... obviously if you dont
                         know what NAIRU is, like most TIME readers, this will
                         be of limited interest. 5. the e'ist typically has
                         better graphs, charts etc than other people because
                         the can opt to choose more complicated graphs ...
                         probably not an option for usa today because usa
                         today readers would probably confused by a
                         thermometer that read both degF and degC. --psb
        \_ Weekly Standard or National Review if you actually want to
           provoke thought.
           \_This comment would be funny if it weren't so sad.
                \_ Can you elaborate on your erudition or do you lack
                   the pretense?
                   \_ if you're going to use big words, you really should
                      figure out what they mean first.  -tom
                      \_ Fascinating how every time I see criticisms of WS or NR
                         they are ad hominem.
        \_ 1. The Economist 2. Nation 3. Atlantic Monthly.
           Honorable Mention: Harpers, Foreign Affairs
2003/2/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27280 Activity:nil
2/1     For the idiots among us.  You're in 100% agreement with the psychotic
        butchers running the show in Iraq.  I'm proud you've all finally found
        new philosophical leadership now that the USSR is dead.
2003/2/1 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27273 Activity:very high
2/1     Space shuttle Columbia lost.  Destroyed during landing attempt.
        \_ Pick your favorite news service.  Obviously the story is everywhere.
           200,000 feet in the air over Texas when it disintegrated.  No chance
           of survivors.  A dark day for us all.
           \_ why's it a dark day for us all?  It's only 7 people; we kill
              that many in Iraq daily, and that's even before we invade.
              \_ You're an idiot.
                 \_ Why is he an idiot? I think that's a relevent point
                    to consider.
                    \_ There's no relation or comparison to the two.  That's
                       why he's an idiot.  Only an ultra leftist Berkeley
                       quality sub-genius idiot would think like that.  Thus,
                       he's an idiot.  The same kind of idiot that wanted
                       sanctions instead of the gulf war and now makes pathetic
                       whimpering noises about how sanctions are killing
                       hundreds of millions of Iraqi children everyday.  That
                       \_ in the end it's still 7 people. no one gave a shit
                          when 7 germans died in a helicopter crash in
                          afghanistan. some marines died that way too.
                       kind of idiot.
                       \_ the general point of its only being 7 people is valid
                          and no one gave a shit about the various people who
                          got killed in fuckups in afghanistan
                    \_ putting those 7 people into space involved the
                       dedicated efforts of hundreds of thousands and
                       the support of hundreds of millions of people.
                       \_ So does toppling brutal dictator Sharon.
                          \_ Perhaps you missed out on the recent elections
                             where your Jew hating Arab parties got crushed
                             and lost seats all over the place?  Go compare
                             to the PLO 'elections'.  Oh wait, they don't have
                          \_ right, and if brutal dictator sharon were
                             killed in a big flash of light over texas,
                             that would be a big deal, too.
        \_ Speculation of cause?  Oldest shuttle, came in too hot at 200K feet,
           heat shield failure, something decompressed.
           \_ Don't fly with jews.
           \_ Nando story says on takeoff, some debris fell and hit the
              shuttle.  They didn't think it would cause problems, but
              maybe they were wrong.
           \_ Apparently Columbia had just gone through major overhaul to
              replace old parts, etc.
2003/2/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27272 Activity:nil
1/31    The Cheney plan for Iraq: Chop it up and give away the pieces
        \_ this appears to be quite old news.
2003/1/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27260 Activity:very high
1/31    MEMORIES OF A FREE IRAQ. The Fire Last Time
        \_ Thank you for posting this!  It was a very interesting essay, and I
           wouldn't have seen it otherwise.  (seriously)
        \_ Will the Shiite dominated regions just break off and join Iran?
           \_ Unlikely, IMHO. Why would Arabs would want to be dominated by
              Persians, even if they share the same religion? BTW, according to
              one of Pentagon's numerous "leaked" plans, a new Kurdish state
              will be formed in the Northern Iraq, the Shiite populated south
              will become part of Kuwait, and the rest of Iraq will become
              part of Jordan ..
              \_ PLEASE post a link to these "leaked" plans-- I would almost
                 support such a plan.
              \_ Who gets Baghdad?  US?
                 \_ Which part of "the rest of Iraq" above did you not
                    \_ How am I supposed to know Baghdad is not in
                       Southern or Northern Iraq?  It's not like Iraq
                       is so important I have to know its geography.
                       \_ Because you're supposed to be a college student and
                          vaguely aware of these things and capable of looking
                          them up for yourself.  Go back to k-3 if you still
                          need to be spoonfed.  Idiot, you don't belong at Cal.
              \_ Highly unlikely that Kurdistan would form unless you want the
                 US to screw over Turkey, which would lead it to become an
                 Islamic state and probably increasing tension in the region.
                 \_ The Kurds aren't getting anything.  They'll get fucked as
                    usual.  It doesn't matter much anyway since they're a
                    bunch of barbarians.  Fuck em.
2003/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27211 Activity:very high
1/27    "Anti-inspectors" in Iraq.
        \_ Wolfowitz is a lying scoundrel. He will do or say anything
           to advance his agenda. Remember when he claimed that the
           anthrax attacks were the work of Iraq?
           \_ Not to defend Wolfowitz, but what makes you think Iraq
              wasn't connected to the anthrax attacks?
                \_ do you have any evidence connecting them to it?
                   i personally believe iraq was behind the 1993
                   wtc bombing
                   \_ no, but is there *any* useful evidence in this case
                      that has been made public?  as far as i know, the answer
                      is no.  all i'm saying is we don't know if it was
                      iraq or not.
                      \_ It is irresponsible for the assistant secretary
                         of defence to be making unsubstantiated charges
                         like that. If he was a private citizen it wouldn't
                         matter anywhere near as much.
        \_ we have as much evidence Iraq is behind the postal
           anthrax attacks as we have tom holub being
           the 5th Iman of Islam
           \_ but we do have proof that tom's the 2nd ass of a 3-assed monkey
2003/1/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27198 Activity:moderate
1/24    Saddam's Brain
        "It is  Michel Aflaq who created the party and not I,"
        Saddam told an interviewer in 1980.
        \_ Stop deleting my comment about liberalism. Too bad you can't
           stand open debate, eh?
        \_ Interesting article.  So why did we give this guy weapons to
           fight Iran?  If you give a guy WMD and he uses them to kill
           millions, are you responsible for those people's deaths?
2003/1/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27174 Activity:moderate
1/21    Blacks are disproportionally used as 'the service sector' in the
        military and have less (often far less) than their share of high
        profile positions as pilots, special forces, etc.
        \_ But doesn't that also mean they have less than their share of
           getting killed?  And they have a problem with that?
           \_ Bzzt.  They're more than equally represented in the infantry,
              making them more likely to get killed and less likely to get
              recognized.  Besides, what you meant to ask is why would a
              brother want to fight a white man's war against dark people
              \_ Errr... Did you not read the article, or are you just
                 stupid?  "Of the Army's 45,586 enlisted combat
                 infantryman, 10.6% are black."  "they make up a far
                 smaller percentage of troops in combat jobs on the front
                 line."  While true this means they're less likely to be
                 promoted.  More likely than racism, that probably means
                 they aren't planning to be carrer military.  Note that
                 they are more likely to pick jobs that will help in the
                 civilian world.  Sounds smart to me.  More likely there
                 are more poor white folk in the special forces because
                 their raised on the GI Joe mentality.  (Any one who
                 dosen't think so needs to spend more time with both
                 poor whites and poor blacks.)
                 \_ Look, there are two possible explanations for this.
                    1) racism, or
                    2) something else.
                    In all cases, the correct answer is racism.
                 \_ Hey! Stop reading article links and bringing those mean
                    and nasty *FACTS* into this!  Bastard!  How dare you
                    challenge my agenda driven beliefs?
        \_ It also means less chance for promotion/advancement/specialized
2003/1/21 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27163 Activity:nil
1/20    Court ordered Scott Ritter to attend counseling for sex offenders
        The guy is a nutcase, as if we already did not know.
2003/1/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27160 Activity:high
1/20    Why do people keep using the hypothetical American military's casualty
        as an argument against war?  First, some soldiers are supposed to die
        in battle, otherwise you wouldn't need soldiers or wars.  Second,
        serving in the U.S. army is one of the safest profession in the
        world, even in  large scale battles.  I would not be surprised if
        statistically it is safer than being a Cal student.  If you really
        care about U.S. soldiers' lives, you should support the deployment of
        bigger, better, and more decisive weapons, say nuke everywhere that
        has a concentration of Iraqi troops.  We can do it and it would
        eliminate all U.S. casualty except those due to accidents, which
        happens anyway.
        \_ hello wack job!
        \_ this is damned silly logic.           -mice
        \_ 696,628 U.S. troops served in the Gulf War 1990/1991.
           263,000 sought medical care at VA facilities for Gulf War
           Syndrome.  At least 64% of all U.S. troops who served during the
           Persian Gulf War were (and still are) at high risk of developing
           the symptoms and disabilities of Gulf War Syndrome.
           \_ We actually deployed 696,628 people to Iraq?  "Serving in the
              Gulf War" doesn't necessarily imply going to Iraq or even leaving
              this country.
              this country.  Did all of the 263,000 people serve in Iraq?
           \_ I know a guy who served in the gulf war.  He's an arabic
              language translator.  He never left his base in Texas.
              \_ good thing he wasn't gay
2003/1/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27159 Activity:very high
1/20    ok so settle this bet for me, who has the constitutional
        authority to declare war, the president or Congress?
        \_ Google: "constitution, declare war"
        \_ we haven't been in a war since WWII
           \_ Well, I belive congress passed a resolution declaring war
              on Iraq, so that's technically not true.
              \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
                 \_ neither, actually.  have a cookie, troll.
        \_ A useful reference: "War declaration replaced by '73 law"
        \_ This issue involves a subtle distinction:
           Congress has the sole authority to *declare* war, but
           the President, as Commander in Chief, has the sole authority to
           to order US troops into combat.  Obviously this can lead to
           some confusion due to the overlapping roles.  The US has engaged
           in armed conflict at the President's behest on many occasions
           in the last half century, but War has not officially been declared
           since 1941 after Japan attacked the US Fleet in Hawaii.
           Even the authorization to use military force in the wake of the
           September 11th attacks was not a declaration of war.
           \_ Followup question: under what conditions may martial law
              be declared? -geordan
              \_ Martial law is easy to declare.
           \_ The war powers act allows the president to order military action
              for 60 days without congressional anything.  Tom Campbell (in the
              House at the time, but ran to replace Feinstein) filed a lawsuit
              against Clinton when he had troops in Kosovo longer than 60 days
              with no congressional support.
              \_ thank you for saving me from posting this
              \_ "Police actions" are okay for the president to act upon.
2003/1/20-21 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27156 Activity:insanely high
1/19    CHEW ON THIS by Christopher Hitchens
        \_ [formatd was all over this thread]
        \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his
           arguments changed my mind about the war against
           the Taliban. He makes good points, and I will
           chew on them for a while.
        \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his arguments changed
           my mind about the war against the Taliban. He makes good points, and
           I will chew on them for a while.
           \_ Don't you mean war against Islam?
              \_ Let's be honest: what's wrong with a war against Islam?
                 Or my favorite, "this is a war about oil!".  Ok, so what?
                 I can agree to that.  I also have no problem with that.  Go
                 live in a cave for a year and tell me it isn't worth it.  You
                 won't even have a bicycle without oil, much less kuro5hin or
                 slashdot or any of the rest of the leftist too-young-to-get-it
                 net denizens.  Same thing for the Euros who want the yankees
                 go home.  Let em defend themselves with their own budgets.
                 Go read any press in the world.  Read the Arab's own media and
                 they make it clear they consider themselves at war already.
                 \_ It's wrong to kill people to save $0.50 on each gallon
                    of gasoline that you buy.  What is your point about "living
                    in a cave" if we don't get cheap oil?  Americans waste gas.
                    If America wants that, then we should be responsible enough
                    to pay the price and not get it dishonestly from other
                    countries.  Also,  why should young men die to save you
                    a bit of money?  Would you do the same for them?
                    If this is about nuclear weapons, then the situation is
                    different.  But then again,  Bush doesn't have enough
                    credibility to avoid appearing disingenuous.
                        \_ Even if this was just about oil (which it is not),
                           the price of oil doesn't just show up at the pump.
                           Any increase in the price of oil also shows up in
                           every store due to the increased cost of shipping
                           (ground and air). It also shows up in the increased
                           cost of petrochemical products (plastics, etc.).
                           Energy efficiency might offset some of the cost
                           increase, but not all of it. Ultimately the people
                           who end up being affect by higher oil prices are
                           ordinary ave americans (the same ones whose kids
                           are dying for lower oil prices). What it means to
                           these people is colder winters, less presents under
                           the christmas tree, fewer shoter vacations, less
                           \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha.  Americans are buying
                               SUV's in droves.  They make up like 25% of all
                               new cars.  They are expensive and wasteful.
                               Go over to East Palo Alto.  If you don't see
                               an SUV in the driveway,  it will probably
                                be a Camaro or something.
                                Also,  should American soldiers die for all of
                                this?  I thought they were out to defend freedom
                                Why don't people fucking LIVE closer to work
                                instead of expecting American soldiers and
                                Iraqis to die to maintain their lifestyles?
                           time with their families because of longer hours or
                           multiple jobs. Basically, a complete destruction of
                           of their simple decent lifestyle.
                           \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha.  Americans are
                              buying SUV's in droves.  They make up like 25% of
                              all new cars.  They are expensive and wasteful.
                              Go over to East Palo Alto.  If you don't see an
                              SUV in the driveway,  it will probably be a Camaro
                              or something.  Also,  should American soldiers die
                              for all of this?  I thought they were out to
                              defend freedom Why don't people fucking LIVE
                              closer to work instead of expecting American
                              soldiers and Iraqis to die to maintain their

                 \_ the US is the largest producer of oil in the world.
                    Also the largest importer.
                    \_ It's politically easier to get oil from Iraq than from
                       drilling off the California coast or some god forsaken
                       patch in Alaska.
                        \_ doofus, those are the wells which are already
                           drilled and producing oil.
                 \_ Because a war about reducing the bottom line for the
                    wealthiest corporations in the world doesn't sound anywhere
                    near as noble as protecting the citizens of this country.
                    Our leaders like to sound very noble.  Especially when
                    they send young, dumb kids into combat situations which
                    their own family was wise or connected enough to keep them
                    out of.
                    \_ Bottom line?  Yawn.  Keep reading the little red book.
                       It's not about corporations.  They don't have a bottom
                       line.  They pass all costs along.  It's about your life
                       style in the short to mid term and your freedom in the
                       long term.
              \_ Actually he means the coming war on Iraq, or should anyway
                \_ No, I mean what I say. He had a big split
                   with The Nation over the war in Afghanistan.
         \_ Wow, I thought C.H. was a big Euro Liberal.  What happened?
            \_ He grew up?
            \_ Hitchens is still a big Euro liberal, but he believes that
               the defining elements of liberalism are a belief in self-
               determination, democracy, freedom of speech, equal rights
               and tolerance for others. He is right on the mark here. He
               also believes that defending these values is more imporant
               than pacifism, or the liberal tendency to try to come to
               non-violent solutions to problems. He states that Islamic
               societies are opposed to everything that liberals hold
               dear, and that a violent aggressive self-defence is
               neccessary to protect ourselves and our values. But there is
               quite a bit of difference between attacking someone who is
               harboring Osama Bin Laden and attacking someone who has done
               nothing to you.
                \_ I guess we should just let them get a nuke and wait for
                   them to use it on New York or Washington or SF before we
                   do something about it.
                   \_ Iraq is not the Cuban Missile Crisis.  They don't have
                      ICBMs.  They don't have nuclear warheads in striking
                      distance of the capitol.  It's yet to be shown that
                      they have nuclear capability at all.  The inspectors
                      are back in.  Let them do their job.
                      \_ so you're saying it's too early to attack when
                         he's just trying to get nukes, and we should wait
                         until he tries for icbm's?
                         \_ If he wouldn't launch chemical warheads on SCUDs
                            at Israel, he's not going to send nukes our way
                            either.  He knows the outcome.
2003/1/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27134 Activity:very high
1/16    Have we discussed the double standard that Bush has on North Korea
        and Iraq.  NK has said that they will build nukes and here we are
        saying that we want to negotiate.  And with Iraq we're ready to go
        to war even though the inspectors haven't found anything.   WTF?
        \_ Do you want to go to war with a country that probably has nukes?
        \_ Nukes, and neighbors we give a shit about are the differences.
        \_ haven't we been over this?  Iraq has oil our economy needs.
           We're certainly not going to admit this though.
           \_ and why not admit it?  it's not like anyone outside the U.S.
              actually believes Bush's lies that this isn't about oil.
              it might actually increase the amount of respect we get
        \_ Tactically speaking, it makes sense to smash Iraq first (especially
           since we've been working on getting this started for over a year) and
           then talk to NK, basically asking them if they'd like to be next.
           \- "it's about oil" is not a meaningful statment. that's like
              saying "it's about power". you have to make stronger claims
              than that if you want and answer/to be taken seriously. --psb
        \_ I have an actual real answer to this but I don't provide real
           responses to such blatantly loaded questions and trolls.  Maybe if
           you stopped insulting the intelligence of those you claim you wish
           to engage in debate you'd get real replies?
        \_ Why can't NK have nukes? Why can't Iraq have chemical
           weapons? Because we say they are evil? WTF? It's like the big
           mob telling the little mobs, you can't have guns!! If you have
           guns, then you are evil! While all alone, the big mob sells
           billions of guns to whoever the fu** he pleases. Being a
           country means you have the right to develop weapons to defend
           \_ North Korea constantly threatens to bomb South Korea,
              Japan, and the United States.
              \_ the US constantly threatens to bomb far more
                 countries than I can even count.
          \_ The best defense seem to be, well, we are the superpower, and
             anyone in our place would've done the same. Yeah, just like the
             big mob saying, well, I know what I am dong is evil, but heck,
             had it been a different mob, they would've done the same. And
             people just don't stop and think for a moment why suicide
             bombers want to blow up the WTC. If I am someone who suffers
             daily from the abuse of the big mob, then you bet your ass I
             will want to take them down with me! Treat others fairly and
             others will treat you fairly. Treat others like shit and shit
             is what you get. But Bush doesn't give a fuck, he's out in 4/8
             years so the mess will be whoever next to clean up. All it
             matters is the defense industry get all the government's money
             and his circle of friends are rich, even if the cost means
             killing millions of innocent people. This is crime at the mass
             \_ You're so cute when you're being naive and angry!
2003/1/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27092 Activity:high
1/13    Another stupid question. Why exactly is Iraq not allowed to have
        these "weapons of mass destruction"? America and many other
        countries possess them, so why cannot Iraq?
          \- better question: why is France on the Security Council --psb
        \_ better question: why is France on the Security Council --psb
           \_ On the winning side of WWII and gave the capitalists numerical
              superiority over the communists. Not that having more really
              counted for much.
           \_ It was the only way to make shutup Charles de Galle.
              \- if you really want to hate france, you should read
                 more about de gaulle's thumbing his nose at churchill
                 and fdr. i dont have a good reference for this but if
                 someone else does, i'd be interested. ok tnx --psb
           \_ topWorldEconomies - countriesThatLostWWII = securityCouncil
              \_ ignorance + you = your post. Russia is not a topWorldEconomy.
                 \_ Who else then?  Cananda?  Harharharharhar!
                    \_ India... Brazil...
        \_ They entered into a legal arragement at the end of the gulf war
           where they stated they would not develop nuclear weapons.  They
           agreed because Saddam wanted to stay in power, but now he's
           violated that contract with the UN according to the chimp
           in the whitehouse.
        \_ ... as the world goes, is only in question between
           equals in power, while the strong do what they can
           and the weak suffer what they must ... [men] by a
           necessary law of their nature they rule wherever
           they can. And it is not as if we were the first to
           make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found
           it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist
           for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it,
           knowing that you and everybody else, having the
           same power as we have, would do the same as we do.
           --History of the Peloponnesian War, Book V  ("The Melian Dialog")
           \- "in our lifetime" i think a few more countries are likely
              to get nukes to make a run at it. iran, japan for example.
              \- BTW, this may be of some interest:
                 I think they are somewhat glib on a few things (then it
                 comes to the importence or non- of nukes) but otherwise
                 it is a fairly accesible and reasonable article. --psb
                 \_ That's a good one though it is glib on points as you
                    say. It nicely outlines, by no specific mention,
                    "so why IS this little cabal so bent on aggressive
                    military action since they seem smart enough to know
                    better?". Anatol Lieven's article in the London Review
                    of Books is the only one I've seen to answer that in a
                    way that made sense. His article has also been prescient
                    given that it was published in October and, thus, likely
                    written in late August. -- ulysses
                    \- i think the the LRB article is leem, although the
                       "jewish problem" in american party politics was
                       kind of interesting. walt and mearsheimer's brains
                       are larger. you may wish to see the issue of IS
                       on this topic. IS is even better. --psb
2003/1/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26997 Activity:very high
1/5     Good analysis of America, its empire, and the role it should play
        in the middle east:
        \_ Fuck the NYSlimes - the article couches arguments in the
           context of a republic but the whole paper is full of nothing
           but leftist statists.  The Slime's politics are anithetical
           to a Republic.
           Take this pithy quote for example - '...America backed stability
           over democracy, propping up the autocratic rule of the shah,
           only to reap the whirlwind of an Islamic fundamentalist
           revolution in 1979...".
           Well no fucking shit, this was the U.S. paradigm of foreign
           policy throughout the cold war to contain Soviet influence.
           You can't build a democracy in civilizations a 1000 years behind
           the West.  But wait a minute, wasn't it the left's
           Messiah Jimmy Carter who reversed U.S. support of the Shah only
           to embolden Khomeini.  This was militant Islam's first success,
           a success that ignited the situation we face today
           - all thanks to the fucking moron Jimmy 'moral foreign policy'
           Carter.  The man who brought us Stansfield Turner and ethics
           to the CIA.  So much for 'Good analysis' eh?
           \- hello, you may wish to read the "Living with a superpower"
              article in the "Mr. Kim" issue of the E'ist. International
              Security is very good on for more technical discussions,
              although you may unknowingly miss some things because the
              authors take some shortcuts because they assume some
              familiarity with IR literature. e.g. take a look at:
              [IS is better than FA, FP, WP etc.]
              n.b. JSTOR may give you better access. --psb
              \- oh this article may also make you feel better:
                 i dont agree with all of it but it is more interesting
                 that the article by that communist from the TLS the asp
                 walled about. --psb
                 that the article by that communist from the TLS or LRB
                 the asp walled about. --psb
                 \_ Kagan's article is very long and extremely boring, to
                    the point that his points become irrelevant.  BTW,
                              \- the kagan article is a little repetitive
                                 but he raises an interesting "large issue"
                    and the reset of the world (where American power
                                 while the only interesting thing in the
                                 article the asp mentions is the democrats'
                                 "manhattan problem". i am unable to
                                 respond at greater length to these comments
                                 via wall. by the way, if you want to acquire
                                 some culture, if you havent read it, read
                                 the Melian Dialog at the end of BookV
                    should it pursue for the rest of the world?
                                 in the History of the Peloponnesian War.
                                 it's a fantastic read. (i'm not suggesting
                                 it's immediate relevance, but this is a
                                 good thing to have in your pocket) --psb
                    communist or not, that article from LRB was at least
                    entertaining and the view could represent any
                    "conservative realist" of another country.  To people
                    who know what that word means, Bush and his troops
                    sound very much like the Bolsheviks.
                    \_ Hi.  I know what the word 'Bolshevik' means.  You
                       do not.  You are likely the same moron who was
                       comparing US under Bush to USSR.  You have no sense
                       of scale.  Go kill yourself now before you get smacked
                       again like last time.
                 \_ There is no disagreement between Kagan's article
                    and the NYT article.  They deal with different realms
                    of the world, Kantian vs Hobbesian, Europe (where
                    American power is needed only for external threats)
                    and the rest of the world (where American power
                    is needed to impose internal order).  The NYT article
                    deals with what US should do in the rest of the world.
                    Should US act entirely out of its self-interest or
                    should there be a 'moral foreign policy'?  If it is
                    entirely for self-interest, how is it different in
                    essence from the Europen empires of the 19th century
                    and earlier?  It could not be, so what other options
                    should it pursue for the rest of the world?  When
                    Kagan argued that "Americans ought to be the first to
                    understand that a threat to one's beliefs can be as
                    frightening as a threat to one's physical security",
                    he is referring to post-WWII Europe's belief in
                    solving problems between nations through international
                    laws, negotiations, diplomacy and forging of economic
                    ties which is the essence of the European Union,
                    which many Europeans feel is being threatened by
                    America's unilateralism.  The same, however, can also
                    be said of the third world's experience of throwing off
                    colonialism to attain self-determination and self-rule,
                    after significant hardship and sacrifice.  For many
                    people these beliefs are similarly threatened by
                    American unilateralism, which is why many nations
                    outside of Europe also feel uneasy about US's
                    unilateral exercise of power.
2002/12/31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26948 Activity:very high
12/30   The Democrats are history:
        \_ Interesting article thanks for posting it.
        \_ that guy has a clear head on his shoulders.
        \_ great piece, but your headline is misleading. --erikred
2002/12/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:26937 Activity:high
12/28   Be careful what you say, you might get a visit from the police:
        \_ boo hoo, terrorist boy gets nabbed by the FBI.  That is exactly
           how it is supposed to work.
           \_ yup.  China had that all worked out for DECADES.
           \_ Only a russian jew would trade freedom for a "safe" and
              "fair" system he can find the loopholes in.
        \_ All I can say is it's a good thing she didn't call anyone a
           "nigger" or call her roommate a "wetback" she would've gone
           to jail for that.
        \_ I must be missing something here, because it starts off with a
           story about a girl and "Metal Gear Solid" then suddenly
           switches to some guy from Yemen.  Huh?
           Not to meantion, so people from terrorist countries are checked
           out more thoughorly nowdays.  Big whup.
           \_ Yemen is a terrorist country?  I thought they were one of our
              "important allies".  Funny how muddled all this gets.  Hey,
              wasn't that federal building bombing in Oklahoma done by U.S.
              citizens.  Maybe we should start looking more closely at them
              too.  I know.  Let's just start rounding up students.  They
              think about alot of different things, and some of those things
              must be dangerous.
              \_ A) Just because the goverment likes us, doesn't mean
                 everyone in the country does.  Case and point: Saudi
                 Arabia.  (The opposite is also true, say, Iraq.)
                 B) I didn't see you whining back when all the "militias"
                 we're getting checked out.  Or even when Waco went down.
        \_ this writer needs to go back to journalism school. they never
        introduce "Kamal" until a paragraph AFTER referring to him with
        third person pronouns...totally fucking confusing shit article. --aaron
2002/12/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26924 Activity:very high
12/27   http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27279375
        Rael UFO cult clones human. According to the above news link, a raelian
        woman has actually given birth to a human clone yesterday.
        heres a link to the cult website:
        http://www.rael.org  it seems to be down right now, however.
        \_ It's all over the place.  You don't need hokey unheard of sites to
           read about it.  There's also no proof yet.
           \_ more normal link added to appease whiner.
              \_ wanting a real news source is not whining.  you want me to
                 direct you to my personal website for real news?  i think not.
                 you'd find it equally questionable.  and there's still no
                 proof clonaid created a real clone, dolly style.  (it's like
                 "duh i read it on the net, it must be true!!!!")
                 \_ You're too good for Reuters?  You're so l337, duud.
                    \_ http://alertnet.org?  Whatever.  If it doesn't have a real url
                       from a real source, it's suspect.  And no in general
                       reuters is biased crap.  youd see that if you read it
                       with a critical eye and questioned the material instead
                       of swallowing it like a sheep.
                       \_ How is reuters any more biased than any other news
                          source in the whole fucking world?  If you had any
                          idea what a critical eye is, you would have avoided
                          looking so stupid here by actually looking for more
                          info on this yourself instead of abusing the OP with
                          your nonsense.  And, if you would, please point out
                          where the original article posted is biased.
                          \_ Idiot, I had already read other news sources long
                             before the OP posted here.  It doesn't even take
                             a mildly critical eye to note I said the news was
                             already all over the place.  You're an idiot and
                             only look that much more stupid falsely accusing
                             someone of something they're not guilty of but
                             *you* are.  Sheesh, motd posters.  And the article
                             is *still* just about some nutty cult making some
                             claims.  Nothing is proved.  Come back when some
                             one reputable has verified it.
2002/12/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26867 Activity:high
12/19   Turns out that most of Saddam's WMD came from the US:
        \_ Don't forget the krauts--they built poison gas factories in Libya
           as well.  Now they're being pissy about Dubya's chest thumping.
              axes of evil and demand a UN arms inspection backed by the
           Or the French, who built most Iraqi reactors.  Go figure.  -John
        \_ naw... really?  welcome to the '80s...  how was your nap?
           \_ Which country is US?  We should certainly include it among the
              axes of evils and demand an UN arms inspection backed up by the
              threat of war.
2002/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:26783 Activity:nil
12/10   http://csua.org/u/69b [azcentral.com]
        Goooooo bears!
        \_ I believe its pronounced: GO BEAH!
2002/12/3-4 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26703 Activity:high
12/3    http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/3472453.html
        I moved someone else's link to the top.  Sorry if that bugs you.
        Anyway I think this is great.  If you declare war on the government
        you have to expect that your actions bring risk of risk.
        \_ And of course, the government would never be wrong about someone's
           affiliation.  -tom
           \_ I think they maintain a twink points list and eliminate those
              who break the 100 mark.
        \_ The article mentions Jose Padilla.  I have an mp3 of a guy by
           the same name; the track name is Walking On Air.  Same guy?
            \_ No.  This JP is a small time criminal turned wannabe terrorist.
        \_ Make you wonder what they're going to do about the radical
           right-wing groups in the US who advocate overthrowing the
           \_ Doesn't make me wonder at all.  Ever heard of Ruby Ridge?  We
              already know thanks to Janet Reno.
              \_ So there was only one right-wing seperatist in the US and
                 the FBI killed his wife (Hey it doesn't matter, she was
              \_ So there was only one right-wing seperatist in the US and the
                 FBI killed his wife (Hey it doesn't matter, she was
                 affilitated with him and therefore a enemy combatant, thus
                 now legally a target.)
                 \_ Uhm, I'm trying to come up with a reply but you're not
                    really coherent.  Almost but not quite.  I'm not going
                    to touch this one.  You can have it.  You win.  I think
                    you're off kilter and dangerous.
2002/12/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26686 Activity:insanely high
12/1    Restored.  I like seeing the lefties spewing and drooling.
        \_ Wow, it's a good thing that all political affiliations are so
           easily classed as 'right' or 'left' -- otherwise motd would be
           sadly lacking in facile generalizations from morons such as
           sadly alacking in facile generalizations from morons such as
           yourself.  whew!
           \_ I like how you deleted the spew and drool and only restored a
              small part of the reply and then using a partial out of context
              partial quote proceeded to falsely state what I was really saying
              and then insulted me for it.  Very standard lefty hack job
              because, as always, you can't deal with the truth or engage in
              any sort of intellectually honest debate.  I've seen better hack
              \_ You do realize that more than user exist here, yes?
              jobs, though.  Lefty, are you new here?
              \_ You do realize that when multiple users share a publicly
                 writeable file, sometimes stuff gets stomped by other
                 inconsiderate users without any malicious intent.  Nice
                 conspiracy theory, kid.
                 \_ Yeah!   And sometimes one thread survives while another
                    is overwritten.  I've even seen where one sentence
                    is deleted while the rest of the post gets spared.
                    Yep, it's all because of random overwrites.  Kid, here's
                    a buck.  Go buy yourself some clue on how hazards work.
                    \_ Hell, sometimes the deleted posts even magically
                       transmogrify into editorial comment.  Them random
                       overwrites sure are clever.
           \_ On the motd they are.  And in the real world they mostly are.
              There's no point in making subtle points on the motd when you
              and your lefty comrades delete anything contrary to your
              leftist religion without debate, thought, or comment.  I'm
              always willing to debate anything to the end of time without
              deletes or pointless personal insult but everytime I try one of
              you just erases the whole thing in minutes.  Stop censoring and
              you'll get a real thrashing instead of a quicky thrashing.
               \_ I love it.  You get flamed for being a moron, so naturally
                  the guy flaming you is a censoring lefty.  It's okay to
                  be stupid, no one holds it against you.
        \_ ok, I'll bite.  So, as a "righty" do you actually like what your
           party is doing to the country right now?  I'm serious, so please
           put more than the typical motd "\_ yes".
           \_ http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2002/db021120.gif
           \_ yes!
           \_ you mean like trying to lower my taxes, start drilling for oil
                                        \_ how much will you save?
                    shrug.  instead of getting raped for 3 _/
                    months' worth of income, you're getting
                    raped for 3 months - n days.  how much
                    are those n days worth?  depends on how
                    much you like getting raped, i guess.
              on our own territory so we don't have to deal with terrorists
              like the saudis, stomping on terrorist pseudo states like iraq,
                        \_ how much oil are we actually getting from the
              afghanistan, and soon to be saudi arabia, and trying to restore
                \_ why not North Korea, Uganda, and Myanmar?
                   \_ are you saying that because we can't fix all of them,
                      we shouldn't fix any of them?  strange argument.
              some sense of values?  yes.
              \_ Ah, neo-cons.  What a sad bunch of small-dicked men you
2002/11/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26563 Activity:very high
11/15   http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14552
        Your right-wing foreign policy in action (inaction?)
        \_ Ok, so the NGO's, read the U.N., spend all the money
           on office space and amenities and you want to blame
           the President?  Wait, isn't it these same NGO's that have
           run the Palestine occupied territories for 50+ years?
           U.S. soldiers don't need to be there, Turkey (a Muslim
           country in case you didn't know) is providing the
           security force.  Otherwise the article makes no
           relevant points.
        \_ Why is it always the US that gets blamed for everything?  How about
           you post some figures on how much aid was promised by the Euros vs.
           how much aid they actually sent?  How about you tell us how great
           it would be in Afghanistan if the Taliban were still in charge?
           No matter how much we do or spend or fix it's never enough for you,
           until you eventually point the other finger and say we're being
           imperialists and destroying their culture and right to free choice
           in how they run their country.  Gach... why do I bother feeding
           the trolls?
           \_ Cause it's our fault.  Live with it and have fun pissing off the
              next idiot who starts a tirade about "you Americans..."  -John
           \_ Everyone know the US foreign aid is rather low compared to
              other developed nations.  However private donations is
              quite high (eg. Bill Gates).
              \_ Everyone know?  How about a URL?  Everyone know indeed.
                \_ ROTF
                \_ Be nice to the f.o.b.
                   \_ Yeah yeah, show me the URL already.  Being fob doesn't
                      get him out of that.
                      \_ Stfw.  If you don't read, at least don't be a lazy
                         fuck.  I have no interest in expending any energy
                         to prove something to dumb arses like you.  On the
                         other hand, how is foreign aid relevant to the
                         discusion?  I must have misread the original post.
                         \_ Not my job to stfw.  If he's going to make random
                            claims it is his job to back them up.  Until he
                            supports his claims with real references his claims
                            are meaningless.  If you're the FOB who is posting
                            zero-reference out-your-ass claims then you need to
                            either stop wasting precious bits on the net with
                            that crap or back them up.  You're sure as hell in
                            no position to whine that other people won't do
                            your research for you and then whine further that
                            they are the lazy ones and not yourself.
                         \_ only homosexuals use the word "arse".
                            \_ I use the word "arse", and I didn't know yermom
                               went for doggy style with homosexuals.  -John
                                \_ put back on the chaps and get your arse over
                                   here.  Daddy needs some sweet sweet loving.
                      \_ When did this start?  I thought acting like a
                         clueless foreigner was a virtual "get out of
                         jail free" card in this society?
                         \_ Contrararily, whiney "They are stealing our jobs"
                            natives are the ones who want all the freebies.
                            \_ Uhm, duh, are you out of school?  They *are*
                               taking American jobs.  -lost job to H1b
              \_ Except this analysis ignores billions in U.S. military
                 expenditures to protect US and allied interests around the
                 globe.  Take for example, the Fifth Fleet protects Europes
                 oil in the Gulf of Arabia, Europe and Pacific allies lived
                 under the nuclear umbrella of the US since WWII, NATO/ U.N.
                 military missions, etc. etc. etc.
                 \_ Free food and patent busting medicine = good.  Freedom of
                    speech, freedom of movement, freedom to have the US protect
                    you from your intolerant and insanely criminal neighbors
                    with the US military = bad.  US = bad.  Europe = good.  Is
                    it all clear now?
2002/11/13-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26532 Activity:very high
11/13   Iraq accepts weapons inspections:
        What is the point of weapons inspections? Does anyone think
        that the inspectors will actually find the nuclear/chem/bio
        weapons that Iraq has?
        \_ Whether they find anything or not isn't really the concern -- of
           course they will.  The real question is how long will Saddam
           continue to cooperate?  This seems like another delaying tactic,
           appeasing the UN in the short term....
                \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians"
                   school of law enforcement.  -John
        \_ Why not? The first weapons inspectors team found a bunch.
           \_ They've had years to hide stuff.
              \_ Their own people will spill the beans on a lot of it.
                 There's no such thing as a real secret if more than 1
                 person knows it.
                 \_ So where is bin Laden?  Is he dead or alive?  Did
                    Monica swallow?  Are you really an idiot?  Presumably
                    more than 1 person know the answers to these questions.
                    Please enlighten us.
                    \_ bin laden is alive and in pakistan, monica swallowed,
                       and the above poster is an idiot.
2002/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26531 Activity:insanely high
11/13   conspiracy theory of the day:  if Bin Laden were really alive,
        he'd send al jazeera a video, not an audio tape. hence, the message
        is fake.  however it is a good fake, that has convinced people
        who know his voice very well. this implies technological
        sophistication, as well as the intelligence to fake Bin Ladens
        rather fancy sounding arabic.  who would have the motive and the
        technical knowhow?  Iraq.  I think this is a fake broadcast by
        Iraq to try to erode international support for the U.S.
        \_ You are completely wrong. The only gov. that has the kind of
           resources to fake a message like that and get all of the media
           outlets to buy into it is our gov. If you want to be exact
           not the elected gov. but rather the shadow gov. that actually
           runs things and spreads misinformation and manipulates the
           public in order to keep us from knowning the Truth! that we
           are being used a pawns by aliens bent on galatic conquest.
           Bin Laden and Sept. 11 and Iraq are all just a cover for the
           shadow gov. to get funding for black ops. projects designed
           to facilitate the conversion. Trust No One! - F. Mulder
        \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of
           law enforcement.  -John
        \_ Even if you're correct on everything, bin laden being alive won't
           erode support for the US.  Please avoid jobs at the State Dept.
           \_ did you read the transcript of the message?  it's not the
              existence of the message, but the content.
              \_ I read it all.  So what?  You're still in la-la land.
        \_ It'd more believable if you said it's the US who had the motive and
           the technical knowhow to fake it.
           \_ Ooo! I like this one. Only Bin Laden isn't the target anymore.
              \_ bin laden has never been the target.  if he were, he'd be dead.
              \- i think in the past they have been able to get various info
                 from the video tape ... location conjectures, health of OBL
                 etc so that might be one reason also. --psb
                 \_ you think no one who works for bin laden has heard of
                    a bluescreen?  i would like to hope that they're that
                    stupid, but i doubt it.
                    \_ Blue and green screen are easily detectable and are
                       pointless if you're trying to look holy and tough.
2002/11/9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26488 Activity:very high
11/8    The Anti-American Era Is Coming to an End
        ... smack down
        \_ You know how your man Bush could make us believe he doesn't have
           a boner for Iraqi oil?  He could make it illegal for any Americans
           to profit from the exploitation of Iraqi oil production after the
           "regime change."  Let the oil pros do this pro bono, just for the
           betterment of Iraq, and we might actually believe him.  Until
           then, give up hope of any real legitimacy for the Iraqi campaign.
        \_ Since they fit fine on just one line, there is no need to mask
           freerepublic URLs using http://csua.org's URL shortener.
2002/11/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26482 Activity:very high
11/7    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021108/80/de8zy.html
        Bush has learned well from Sharon. If there is anyone you don't
        like, don't bother with arrest, don't bother with a trial,
        just execute 'em from the air. A US citizen murdered, too.
        \_ Not murder. Proactive attack against terrorist elements.
           \_ Not murder.  Assassination.  Prohibited by Exec. Order,
              and therefore illegal.  Arrest the CIA.
              \_ It isn't assassination unless you figure that every random
                 fuck towel head with a bomb is a foreign leader.
                 \_ http://dictionary.com says:
                    assassination: a killing by treacherous violence.
                    http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/eo12333.html#2.11 says:
                    2.11 Prohibition on Assassination. No person employed by
                         or acting on behalf of the United States Government
                         shall engage in, or conspire to engage in,
                    2.12 Indirect Participation. No agency of the Intelligence
                         Community shall participate in or request any person
                         to undertake activities forbidden by this Order.
                    Read carefully, tool: nowhere does it say "foreign leader."
                             \_ US abolished slavery at the cost of a civil
                                war.  Sweden sat on its ass like a coward
                                until someone else did the dirty work.  Being
                                humane entails knowing when to fight for what
                                you believe in.
           \_ Be thankful the US isn't lining the roads with crosses like
              the Romans.  They could, and I bet they would actually be
              successful in stopping attacks that way (as Romans were).
              \_ So has Genghis Khan.  Yes, I am thankful that the US is
                 not like Genghis Khan.
                 \_ Romans are too close to home, eh?  Had to come up with
                    a big bad asian example, right?  That the US occasionally
                    fires rockets at cars loaded with dynamite (which I
                    consider a good thing) does not change the fact that it
                    has produced the most humane society the world has ever
                    \_ Have you ever been to The Netherlands? Sweden? Canada?
                       \_ What was Sweden's stance on the Nazis again?
                          \_ What was USA's stance on slavery again?
                             Sweden merely maintained independence.
                             \_ The US got rid of slavery at the cost of a
                                civil war.  US citizens lost lives trying
                                to oust Hitler when it became obvious he
                                was a threat.  Sweden just sat on its
                                collective ass and waited for Nazis to take
                                over the world.  Being humane is knowing
                                when to fight for what you believe in.
                                \_ Why did they ignore Stalin then hm? You know,
                                   it's just silly to say Hitler would really
                                   be able to "take over the world". At most,
                                   possibly some of the eastern european
                                   nations that Stalin ended up ruling for the
                                   next 50 years anyway.
                                   \_ If there wasn't a Western Front the Nazis
                                      would have taken out the Russians and
                                      then Britain was next.  After that, the
                                      US would stand alone for freedom in the
                                      world against the Nazi controlled Euro/
                                      Asian continent (as well as the oil in
                                      the middle east and the more valuable
                                      parts of Africa).
                                      \_ A Russian friend of mine said Russia
                                         has always won wars that others
                                         launched against it, and has always
                                         lost wars that it launched against
                                         \_ Your russian friend is wrong.
                                            Russia lost the war against the
                                            Golden Horde. -- russian
                                         \_ Yes, we can take that historical
                                            fluke as divine providence that
                                            it is fated that no one can invade
                                            and conquer Russia.  Thanks.
                                \_ The Civil War was over state's rights, not
                                   over slavery.
                                   \_ Wow... welcome to Oversimplification Of
                                      History 101.
                             \_ Why did you erase my question?  US sat back
                                on the same haunches as Sweden while the nazis
                                were sweeping through europe.  We would have
                                let england be taken before we did anything
                                if it weren't for pearl harbor.  we had business
                                dealings with the nazis that couldn't be
                                \_ Uh oh.. *this* assertion definitely needs
                                   some URL backing.
                                   \_ major IBM contracts for Nazi Germany.
                                      \_ dont be a git.  we didn't avoid war
                                         with the Nazis for IBM's sake.  Duh.
                                \_ and what did sweden contribute to the
                                   \_ Those cool knives?  Oh no wait that was
                                      the swiss, the Nazi collaborators.
                    \_ That the Romans had a little civilization going does not
                       change the fact that cruxifixing people is barbaric.
                       Do not confuse "inspite of" and "because of".
                       \_ You know, you would pull off that lecturing tone
                          much better if you knew how to spell 'crucify.'
                          \_ You know, you need to brush up your grammar
                             a little.
                             \_ Um..  to what grammar are you referring?
                                \_ "would have pulled"
                       \------"still [christians] others were burned alive
                              as living torches to light Nero's garden at
                              his Golden House." ... that's a funny story
                              but untrue ... probably some exaggeration
                              of suetonius. why are you focusing on rome?
                              look at the decree on megara or the melian
                              dialog. that is more appropriate. well i
                              suppose you can look at the destruction of
                              corinth in 146 by L. Mummius:
                Cary \& Schullard describe the aftermath as follows:
                ``In other Greek towns they restored the rule of the
                wealthier  classes,  and   they  made  Corinth  safe
                against social revolution by razing it to the ground
                and  selling its  inhabitants into  slavery.''  This
                was the hard edge to the vaunted {\it Pax Romana\/}.
                        See also famous speech of calgacus in the Agricola:
                A  rich enemy  excites their  cupidity; a  poor one,
                their  lust  for power.  East  and  West alike  have
                failed to satisfy them.  They are the only people on
                earth to whose  covetousness both riches and poverty
                are  equally  tempting.  To  robbery,  butchery  and
                rapine,  they give the  lying name  of 'government';
                they create a desolation and call it peace.
        \_ You're confused.  You kill the enemy, you arrest criminals.  They
           were the enemy.  As far as one of them being a US citizen, I'm not
           shedding any tears since our insanely open borders make the concept
           of US citizenship almost entirely meaningless.
           \_ Especially when some politicians are trying to give residency
              to illegal immigrants in order to buy votes from certain ethnic
              \_ The Republicans are guilty of 'excusing' illegal aliens and
                 making them magically into citizens (1986) while the Democrats
                 prefer to not bother with the citizenship thing and just have
                 endless numbers of people come over so they can raise taxes
                 on the citizenry in order to 'solve' a social problem they
                 helped create.  Fuck them both.
                  \_ Reagan 's amnesty was a political compromise with the Dems.
                     He later stated it was the biggest mistake of his
                     Presidency.  Unfortunately, today there are many RINOs in
                     Congress beholden to business.
                     \_ Saying, "I'm sorry" afterwards is too fucking late.
2002/10/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26293 Activity:high
10/23   March for peace on Saturday. This should be the biggest yet:
        http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14353 Note this is just
        an announcement for those interested. If you don't support the purpose,
        don't go to the march. This is not a troll.
        \_ What's wrong with war on Iraq?  Would you rather wait until
           they demonstrate their WMDs before doing anything about it?
           \_ They've already used them. And America shrugged.
           \_ 1) Everything, if all other means of detection and prevention
              have not been pursued (and they have not).  2) I would rather
              send in inspectors and disarm the bastards than
              indiscriminately bomb innocent Iraqi civilians. --erikred
              \_ 1)  They have refused inspectors, or said they would
                   allow only very limited inspection.  How long would you
                   wait for them to change their mind
                 2)  War on iraq would not be undiscriminating bombing of
                   civilians.  Did you see the last gulf war?  Some
                   civilians were killed, but the primary damage was to
                   the military targets.  Unless you believed their
                   claims that weapons factories were actually producing
                   formula for infants...
        \_ I can lend a hand...
2002/10/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26165 Activity:very high
10/12   You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a target, but:
        \_ "According to a government spokesman Mikko Norros, a foreign
           terrorist organisation is not believed to have been
           responsible for the bomb - rather a deranged individual or
           an organised crime group. "
           personaly, I believe him.  they're finns.  what motivation
           do they have to lie?  as to pacifism, finland has mandatory
           military service for all men.  no cookie.
           \_ more like swiss "armed neutrality"
              \_ well, I think it's more just "hey, let's not get fucked over
                 by russia like all the other countries nearby"
           \_ *laugh* You're so naive.  Yeah, the first time in history that
              the mob has used a suicide bomber.  That makes a lot of sense.
              Duh, by definition anyone who blows themselves up in a mall is
              deranged so that's a meaningless statement as well.  It was your
              standard PLO/Hamas style suicide bombing in a public shopping
              center.  Just like the French trying to claim the tanker wasn't
              an act of terror, also.  A five year old could see this govn't
              spokesman's statement is ridiculous.  They haven't even collected
              all the body parts and he's already claiming it wasn't an act of
              middle-east style terror.  Nonsense.
              \_ The person jumping to conclusion is the person who said:
                 "You'd figure a pacifist country like this wouldn't be a
                  target, but ..."
                 \_ This is a silly response.  The motd isn't a public forum
                    and I doubt the OP is an official government spokesman
                    feeding propoganda to the public.  You're ducking the
                    issue.  I stand by what I said before: they haven't even
                    collected the body parts and know almost nothing about
                    what happened when this mouthpiece puts out official word
                    that it wasn't an act of middle eastern style terrorism,
                    but was instead some garbage about the world's first
                    suicidal mafia hit (on a mini mall, no less).  For now,
                    I'm willing to grant them benefit of the doubt on not
                    releasing identifying details about the bomber beyond his
                    age and gender, but they don't get that benefit forever.
                    \_ i'll keep being naive and you keep being paranoid,
                       and we'll see who has a better life.
        \_ This is why we need a regime change in Iraq. Terrorist attacks will
           continue while Saddam is in power. -G.W. Bush
2002/10/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26098 Activity:insanely high
10/4    how did John Walker Lindh even break the law, causing him now
        to be sentenced to 20 years in jail? what's illegal with joining
        the taliban, despite their unusual beliefs and practices?
        \_ I think this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we
        \_ I guess this is how it goes: 9/11 was done by Al Qaida, so we
           calssified Al Qaida as an enemy to this country.  The Taliban is
           assocated with Al Qaida, so we classified the Taliban as an enemy to
           this country.  Now, it is illegal for a citizen to join an enemy
           to this country, so Lindh broke the law.
           \_ ex post facto
              \_ not so.  he stayed there with them *after* 9/11 and *after*
                 he knew american soldiers were there fighting against his
                 terrorist pals.  thanks.
                 \_ Yeah because walking out of a fanatical camp in the
                    middle of Afghanistan with no food, money, or support is
                    the best thing to do.
                    \_ 1) tough shit, 2) others managed to change sides or
                       safely surrender all over the place, 3) tough shit
                       \_ Who? Name one American citizen fighting with the
                          Taliban who did so.  They'd have shot his ass as
                          a deserter.  Lindh's going to jail because the
                          Feds have shown his lawyers enough evidence to
                          suggest he helped kill a CIA spook who was
                          conducting "interrogations" in the POW camp,
                          and his lawyers told him to take 20 over the chair.
                          \_ Why must it be an American I name?  As far as we
                             know there was only 1 traitor there when Mike
                             Spann was murdered.  Did you have a point?  Your
                             cheesey 3rd grader quality attempt to redfine the
                             debate by putting words in my mouth was beyond
              \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak Hebrew
                             ridiculous.  Frankly, this stupid prick is safer
                             in a cell than on the street where someone is
                             going to kill this punk.  He'll suck some prison
                             dick but he won't be dead which he should be.
                             \_ Don't be a schmuck.  You must name an
                                American because JWL was an American and
                                would've been shot had he tried to defect
                                from the Taliban.  Why he didn't ID himself
                                as such when the Spann and the rest of the
                                "interrogation" squad showed up is a
                                mystery, but perhaps he didn't know the
                                rest of the prisoners were going to riot.
                                My point is that he's going to jail not for
                                just being in the Taliban or being a "traitor."
                                \_ Child, I don't *have* to but because you're
                                   so cute, I will anyway.  Go look up the 4
                                   guys that got picked up last week.  1 of
                                   them didn't like his new psycho jihadi
                                   friends and left.  Jihad Johny didn't ID
                                   himself because he (in his mind) was talking
                                   to the enemy, ya know, the enemy, Americans.
                                   A mystery?  What utter crap.  How can you
                                   expect to be taken even halfway seriously
                                   spewing about how a bus sized hole in your
                                   line of 'reasoning' is simply a mystery
                                   while simultaneously making bogus claims
                                   about what I *have* to prove to you?
                                   Because you lost based on reality and now
                                   you lost on your new self-defined reality.
                                   Go home, read some newspapers, keep up with
                                   what's going on in the real world and you
                                   won't be forced to look like a jerkoff here.
                                   He was *LUCKY* to get only 20 years.  It was
                                   a *VERY* generous offer.  If he pulled that
                                   shit as a citizen of *any* other country on
                                   this planet, he'd be dead if he was lucky
                                   and never see the sun again if not.  This is
                                   the only country that doesn't execute
                                   fucking traitors and other scum like JWL.
        \_ John Walker is an American citizen, and thus owes allegiance to
           this country (immigrants take the oath explicitly, he was born
           into it).  By fighting against American troops, he committed
           treason.  It's kind a scary anti-utopian word, but he can be tried
           for it nevertheless.  Personally I think he got off easy.
           \_ treason is a scary anti-utopian word?  say what?  I agree that
              he got off easy.  So did all the FBI & CIA traitors who sold us
              out to the soviets.  Life in prison is way too easy.
        \_ *Any* participation in a foreign militia is grounds for loss of
           citizenship.  Bush was soft.  He should have had his citizenship
           revoked, then put in federal prison, and when his prison term was
           over, he should be deported.
           \_ the only exception is Israel.  Lots of Americans serve in the
              Israeli military and wave the Israeli flag around.  Who do
              you think they're loyal to?  Frankly, I think anybody who served
              in ANY foreign military should be deported.  Including all the
              \_ Talk to your Reps about eliminating the possibility of dual
                 citizenship and while you're at it see if they'll get someone
                 to enforce the other weak immigration and citizenship laws.
              \_ IDF allows anyone to apply as long as they can read,speak
              \_ yeah how do they get around the law to do that?
                 that's always confused me.
                 \_ Wasn't Israel to become the 51st state? j/k ;p
                    \_ I thought that was Britain, although Blair denied it a
                       few days ago.
              \_ Really?  A recent episode of JAG talks about a jew in US
                 marine who goes to join the Israeli military, and whether he
                 should be treated as a traitor.  I didn't watch the episode
                 and didn't know the outcome.  I just heard the trailer on the
                 \_ No, not really at all.  They're making shit up because the
                    average person doesn't know either way and accepts their
                    anti-semitic lies as facts.
                 \_ Please do not rely on TV drama to get your understanding of,
                    well, anything.  My work here is done.
                    \_ You mean Westwing isn't real life?
           \_ flying tigers.
              \_ you mean the american pilots getting paid by uncle sam to
                 fight for the chinese using american weapons, american ammo,
                 lead by american commanders?  those flying tigers?
           \_ You are full of crap:
              \_ True, but the little fucker is still a traitor and should be
              \_ Relevant quote: "Although a person's enlistment in the armed
                 forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of
                 U.S. law, it could subject him or her to Section 349(a)(3) of
                 the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] which
                 provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American
                 voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S.
                 citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in
                 hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed
                 forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or
                 non-commissioned officer."
                 So it looks like I just made the mistake that it's only
                 officers that are automatic.  If you're not an officer you have
                 to be involved in hostilities against the US...like Lindh.
                 \_ Jeez! Don't you know a non-commissioned officer is an
                    enlisted man. You stupid Berkeley types who never understood
                    the military or it's structure. So no. You made a big
                      \_ At least I can format @ 80 columns
                    \_ <Sigh> How pathetic and puny...
                    \_ Not all enlisted people are NCOs.
                       \_ Are you a dumbass?  He said all NCOs are enlisted.
                          Your statement is true, but is not a refutation of
                          what he said, and is simply irrelevant.  Your idiocy
                          is pissing me off, go away.
        \_ On a related note, I heard that permanent residents here are allowed
           to serve in our military, and maybe even required to served during
           war time.  How does that work with their citizenship elsewhere?
           \_ Who cares what their third world homes have to say about it?
              \_ But to whom are they supposed to be loyal?
                 \_ if they were so loyal, why did they leave?
                    \_ welfare for illegal aliens available here.
2002/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26051 Activity:nil
9/30    http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/iraq.congressmen
        Rep. Fonda, D-Hollywood goes to Iraq.
2002/9/28-29 [Recreation/Humor, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26039 Activity:moderate
9/28    Gives a whole new meaning to the concept of "being on the hotseat".
        http://csua.org/u/32b   <DEAD>-story.news.yahoo.com<DEAD> -urld
        \_ THis story is about weapons grade uranium being smuggled through
           Turkey.  Iraq borders on turkey.
           \_ Damn, do you mean... No, it can't be! Is that bastard Saddam
              trying to sneak all the uranium out of his country before
              the UN inspectors arrive?
              \_ It probably won't seem quite so funny when the *port* of
                 Oakland goes up in a mushroom cloud....
                 \_ I hereby give you permission to say "I told you so" when
                    this happens.  I hereby also give you notice that I'm
                    calling TIPS on your ass then, too, MotdTerrorist.
                    \_ Wow you're really funny.  It's always a good idea to
                       make light of a serious situation.  That way you impress
                       your friends with your bravado, get a false sense of
                       security, and get to feel really clever all at the same
                       time!  Wanna hook up?  You're cute!
                       \_ If it makes you happy to spout doom and gloom
                          scenarios without providing some shred of evidence
                          as to the feasibility of said scenarios, then the
                          least you can do is expect people to take the piss
                          out of you for doing so.  And don't point to the 50
                          page Blair Witch Dossier as evidence unless you want
                          to be made light of some more.
                          \_ Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
                          \_ Yeah 33 lbs of weapons grade uranium on it's way
                             to...?  No evidence of anything funny going on.
                             Don't worry at all about that smoke smell if you
                             can't see the fire.
                             \_ Christ, are you the reactionary apple gravity
                                guy?  You really need to take a vacation or
2002/9/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26037 Activity:nil
9/28    I don't normally read the national review but this is food for thought
        if you ignore the obvious Clinton baiting aspect.  The underlying
        premise is a real possibility for the future.
2002/9/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26029 Activity:nil
9/27    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n19/liev01_.html
2002/9/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26028 Activity:high
9/27    Al Gore can't decide which poll to pay attention to.
        \_ explain your comment, please.  what conflict are you referring to?
           \_ All the way back he was always in favor of bombing Iraq, invading
              Iraq, and ousting SH.  Back to 91.  Even earlier this year he was
              saying Iraq was a big threat, etc, etc.  Now he's done yet
              another self-reinvention and has decided the only way he can
              differentiate himself from his Dem opposition for the Dem'04
              nomination is to come down against doing anything to/with/in
              Iraq.  It's pretty obvious.
              \_ Where in his speech does he come down against doing
                 anything to Iraq? He said we should finish off Al Qaeda
                 first and then take out Iraq.
                 \_ I won't pre-digest your food for you either.  Try it again.
        \_ I hear that Strom Thurman no longer supports the bombing of
           Vietnam and Cambodia. Damn liberals, what is the world coming to?
           \_ he has fond memories of the stone age and realizes things were
              better then.
        \_ Here is the Gore speech:
           What are you talking about?
2002/9/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26011 Activity:very high
9/25    Audio of quotes from '98 and '02 on Iraq
        \_ Well, duh.  Same could be said for the other side, dearie...
           What he said at the end (and was cut off in the sound bite)
           was more telling than the rest.  It's all a game for the members
           of our government to ... get re-elected?  More interesting than
           any of this is what's happening on cspan.  think for yourself.
                \_ Care to back up 'for the other side' with quotes
                   and evidence?  Until then...
                   \_ Okay, how 'bout Bush's turnaround on leases for oil
                      rigs in FL while his brother's seeking reelection.
                      hypocrisy runs deep all over washington.
                   \_ You won't get it.  You'll just get noise about it and
                      then get deleted from the motd as usual.  When they can't
                      do intellectually honest debate they just censor.
        \_ We threatened to invade Iraq in 1998 until they agreed to abide
           by UN resolutions. Same as now. No story, sorry Dittohead.
           \_ Except of course they didn't and we played the fool by blowing
              smoke and doing nothing just like the rest of 1992-2000.
2002/9/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25992 Activity:kinda low
9/23    Pentagon has christened the upcoming Iraqi operation "Scorched Desert."
        \_ Like creme brulee?
        \_ Let's hope the Israelis don't make it operation "Glassed Desert."
          \_ before the Iraqis make it operation 'gassed desert' ?
        \_ I would call it "Operation Happy Fuzzy Bunny."  Now who would be
           against that?
           \_ mabey the famous heavy-metal band "basket full of puppies"
              could write the CNN themes song for the war.(http://www.anthrax.com
           \_ I'm totally in favor of Op HFB.  Imagine Heraldo Rivera 55 miles
              from the front doing his classic "we're under fire on the front!"
              routine while everyone around him goes about their business and
              tries to "Hi Mom!" the camera and he's going off about the
              dangers right there on the front of Op HFB.  Great stuff.
2002/9/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25957 Activity:insanely high
9/19    Have any one actually read Bush's National Security Strategy?
        It looks like in the name of freedom and liberty, we are essentially
        going to destory any nation that has a remote chance of challenge
        US's dominating position in the world.
        \_ That is untrue.  China and India have more potential to challenge
           the USA's hegemony but we aren't stopping them are we?
           Is your generalization brush a bit too thick?
        \_ That is sadly how the US is. The US needs war to survive,
           we need to constantly find targets or otherwise people who
           backed little bush will not be getting rich. Bush actually
           doesn't give a shit about national security, he doesn't
           even know what it is. What he knows is, he who throw money
           into his campaign, he much pay them back with real hard tax
           dollar. You can bet that if, and when we are done with
           Iraq, we will immediately move on to the next target (that
           in time we will surely identify, anyone remember China
           before 911?) Without war, little bush know he will be
           facing critizm from all over regarding his administration,
           when we are in war, the country is much more united, and
           that's his edge. He'll be in the office for 4 years and
           we'll have 4 years of war. You can be sure of that. If it's
           not iraq, it'll be someone else. Bush doesn't give a fuck,
           he needs war to survive.
           \_ the problem right now is there's no balance in the
              world. The US is too powerful for any nation to
              challenge directly, so we do whatever the hell we
              please, with no regard to consequences or human life or
              whatever. And then you have this war hungry bush come on
              board, bin-ladin gave him exactly what he wanted, a way
              to put america into 4 years of war. What Clinton built
              in 8 years, bush destoried in a few months. The good
              thing is he'll only be in office in 4 years and we all
              hope the damage is not too severe. The same cannot be
              said for the other countries. You'll bet that after the
              war, there will be 100 more bin-ladins in the world that
              will want to destory everything that is about America.
              And people just don't stop and think why?
        \_ URL?
           \_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf
              \_ I read it and I don't think it says what you think it says.
                 It is reasonably balanced. -Bush Hating Leftist
        \_ Is this what your commie-berkeley education has help you conclude?
           Do you guys always just simply doubt everything America does to the
           world? I suppose you have a better alternative? Name one. Then go
           there and start accusing that government of the same thing. Better
           yet, look at history, find another #1 country that is as mostly
           benevolent as America. You will not. America - love it or leave it.
           Period.  [formatd]
           \_ This kind of shit is unprecedented in our history, pal, at least
              as an open book policy.  What ever happened to the republican
              rhetoric of "we can't serve as the world police force..."  I
              guess rigging an election makes one more aware of actual
              \_ Speak softly and carry a big stick and right makes might
                                                        \_ might makes right
                 both seem to have disappeared as well. George the 2nd's
                 speeches seem more like NBA/WWF pre-game/match bad mouthing
                 and blustering than serious deliberations on policy. I guess
                 anything more is too much to expect from someone who thought
                 greeks were "grecians".
                 \_ Here's someone who didn't read the new policy.  Come back
                    when you're grown up and stopped watching wrestling.
              \_ The policy is not to be the world's police force.  The policy
                 is to stomp the shit out of anyone that is working on ways to
                 kill us.  If they want to kill each other such as in Africa,
                 that's ok.  The new policy says nothing about that.  Not our
                 problem because we're still not the world's police force.
                 \_ Given this, why hasn't America invaded Columbia? Their
                    government is incapable of handling the drug trafficing
                    trade. Surely ridding America of the death, violence,
                    crime, and economic hardship caused by Columbian drugs
                    would be more useful than invading a country that might
                    have WMD that it could use.
                    \_ We have invaded Columbia. Where have you been? It's
                       mostly covert, though. --dim
                       \_ Hmm. This doesn't bode well for any new invasions
                          that are in the planning stage.
           \_ America != The Executive Branch. I love my country and the
              principles on which it was founded, but I do not love the
              activities of the current (or even most previous)
              \_ Which do you like?  Are you a Jimmy Carter fan?
                 \_ Truman, Ike, JFK and Reagan were okay. Before that,
                    TR, Lincoln, Jefferson and Madison.
           \_ All these native american nations... hmm... prime example of
              american's "benevolence"  And remember, we nuked 300k Japanese
              civilians for their suprise attack of Pearl Harbor which results
              in 3000+ mostly military casuaties.
              \_ Would you have preferred a ground invasion of Japan?
              \_ Ah my friend, how easily you forget the death march of
              \_ Japan raped and killed 300k in the city of Nanjing alone in
                 one week or so.
                 \_ Do you really believe the US gave a shit about what was
                    happening to the Chinese?
           \_ This person votes.  Scary.
              I left it, you have my permission to stay there.  -John
              \_ Stay where you are.  We'll get around to the rest of Europe
                 eventually.  You don't have to come back to be a part of the
           \_ This person votes.  Sweet.  So do I.  --fully agree with person
2002/9/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25953 Activity:nil
9/19    Richard Butler on Iraq.  Gotta love those Australians sometimes.
2002/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25946 Activity:high
9/18    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002431528,00.html
        The interesting part is not the threat to nuke Bagdad, but the part
        where Blair says "We can largely protect against that, do not press
        me on how, we can protect against that" in reference to Saddam nuking
        the oil fields or a nearby capital city.
        \_ space-based beam weapons?
           \_ Most likely the new improved Patriot missle defense. Much better
              than the one in the Gulf War that just managed to miss Scuds or
              break them up thus spreading shrapnel over a larger area. Really.
              Or maybe the beta version US laser anti-missle platform which
              Israel bought nearly sight unseen.
              \_ gee, I'm sure Sadaam would never think of delivering a nuke
                 by some method other than a missile.  -tom
                 \_ are you for or against US military action in Iraq?
                 \_ Ohmigod! Does the Prime Minister know about that? This
                    could change EVERYTHING!
                 \_ Yeah there are multiple ways to fuck shit up so let's not
                    bother having a defense against any of them.  Good call!
                    \_ the statement was "we can largely protect against that",
                       which is absurd.  -tom
              \_ interestingly enough, Patriots didn't work well against Scuds
                 because Scud guidance was so crappy, it was difficult to
                 derive their trajectory from present speed and bearing.
                \_ by the time the scud got back to earth from its
                   short journey into the atmosphere, it had lost enough
                   mass that it was basically just a flying garbage can,
                   hardly any danger at all.
                 \_ Bullshit.  Can you say desperate spin after the patriots
                    totally failed after so much hype?
                    \_ Pretty much. The Scuds are ballistic. Nice predictable
                       trajectories. The GW Patriots were anti-aircraft
                       shoved into an anti-missle mission. Failure ensues.
                 \_ Maybe we should give the Iraqis better guidance systems
                    via the Chinese or NKoreans so we'll have a better chance
                    of shooting them down.  ;-)
2002/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:25945 Activity:high
9/19    Any chance that a military coup happens here in the US?  Nobody seems
        to worry things like this.
        \_ Citizen army of volunteers. Also, notice that there hasn't been a
        military coup in England for well over 300 years.
        \_ The money in this coutry already has both the government and the
           armed forces at their beck and call, so there's no need for a
           military coup.
        \_ None.  That's why no one seems to worry about things like this.
           \_ What is being done here to prevent this altogether while other
              countries have to worry about such thing?  All I know is that
              the US military is not supposed to talk about politics, but not
              talking about it doesn't mean they can't quietly have a view.
                \_ basically, we prevent it by giving the military everything
                   they want.  -tom
                   \_ typical useless agenda driven reply.
                      \_ snide uninformed counter troll.
                         \_ None of those things.  Correct, precise, accurate.
                            \_ Random yermom double entendre.
                               \_ Double entry on yermom?  how...interesting.
                                  \_ DVDADO.
                                     \_ Dude.  Is that even possible?
              \_ Modern and civil countries do not have to worry about such a
                 thing.  Most of western europe, the US, Canada, and Australia
                 have no reason to fear a military coup.  Compare those to the
                 rest of the world such as Africa and Central America where
                 coups are a relatively common occurence.  Rule of law and
                 civilian control of the military as well as functional
                 electoral systems and a tradition of respect for civil
                 authority keeps modern nations safe from their own militaries.
        \_ Read the 2nd Amendment.
           \_ right.  you and your gun-nut friends are the "well regulated
              militia" the second amendment refers to.  i'm not a
              proponent of gun control for other reasons, but the idea
              that the US milinary is afraid of a bunch of citizens
              armed with legal weaponery is laughable.  the iraqi army
              is better armed than you and your local gun buddies, and
              we will soon see them get slaughtered--again.
              \_ Well regulated?  It's all about fiber, son.
           \_ I'm a big 2nd amendment supporter but that's not what keeps
              western nations safe from their own militaries.  You might note
              that the other western nations have very strict gun control laws
              compared to the US but no greater odds of a military coup.
        \_ What do you think happened in December of 2000?
           \_ What do you mean?  The election?
2002/9/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25892 Activity:high
9/14    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,351165,00.html
        Ritter says he has no clue what Iraq has or doesn't have.  Just
        assumes western intelligence agencies would know.
        \_ The guy is nuts.
        \_ where does he say that? i didn't see it.
        \_ http://truthout.com/docs_02/07.25A.wrp.iraq.htm
2002/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25871 Activity:insanely high
9/13    http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/iraq/tenthings.html
        What you can do about the hopefully not COMPLETELY IMMINENT
        war on iraq.  I admit that some of them are kind of
        naive and uneffective, but what else are you going to do?
        \_ You've probably seen the flyers but there will be a march in the
           city tomorrow afternoon. The global exchange website has a link to
           that tells the details. I won't make it and I'm curious what other
           stuff people know about. I've written my letters and called my
           reps. I'm looking for things outside of Berkeley. -- ulysses
        \_ You're going to thank your lucky stars you're a citizen of the most
           powerful nation ever to grace this planet; a nation so powerful, we
           no longer draft idealistic young idiots such as yourself to defend
           ourselves.  We only send poor white trash and desperate minorities
           to defend the college kids now.  Be glad you're part of the elite
           and never have to risk anything to keep freedom alive.  You get to
           post URLs and mouth off without fear of government retribution.
           \_ How is Iraq threatening our freedom?  Our freedom to have cheap
              oil?  If the Saudis want defense, they can pay for it themselves
              they're not helping us anyways.  Fuckers.
              \_ Uhm, where have you been?  Let's assume the weapons inspectors
                 got 100% of everything before leaving in 98.  What are the
                \_ I am open to suggestions for more useful
                 odds Iraq hasn't started up new programs since then?  Zero is
                 a reasonable guess.  Given they're working on WMD, it becomes
                 a case of "when" we need to do something, not "should we".  I
                 don't give a flying figs fart about oil or the Saudis.
                 \_ !given: produce the evidence.
                    \_ Use some logic.  It should be obvious they're still
                       working on it.  Why would they suddenly stop after the
                       inspectors are gone?
                       \_ Because the facilities were destroyed?
                 \_ "Hey Georgie, watch me make a nuclear bomb out of rubble.
                     Nuthin' up my sleeve... Presto!"
                     \_ Nonsense.  They're got plenty of cash, a decent
                        military for the area even after getting beat on in 91
                        and the will to use it.
                      don't want to sell to me a nice price, I'll go elsewhere.
                        \_ Makes you wonder how man the Saudis have. They're
                           far richer and they've shown they'll go splat for
                           the cause.
                 \_ you probably should give a fig about oil, everything
                    in our daily life depends on it.  there are a bunch
                    of articles out there from the un weapons inspector
                    who doubts iraq has the industrial capacity to
                    make weapons of mass destruction.  i also don't think
                    if we bomb the fuck out of iraq, that a magical new
                    american friendly regime will rise up out of the ashes
                    - danh
                    \_ Ritter?  You mean the same guy who when he left was
                       still reporting they hadn't gotten everything but 4
                       years later is now giving a clean bill of health?  And
                       hey let's ignore the post-Ritter UN Security Council's
                       report that was sponsored by the Russians and intended
                       to clear their buddy Iraq but only confirmed Ritter's
                       you and those near you. And then actually do it anyways
                       to make an example of questioning authority. The Mogols
                       had terror down pat. The VV doesn't KNOW real terror.
                       last official report that Iraq still has WMD and was
                       continuing to work on them at the time.  Ritter is
                       playing some kind of sick game.  He either lied then or
                       he's lying now.  Either way, his credibility is now
                    \_ I don't care about "protecting" oil either.  I rather
                       pay for it at the pump than through my taxes.  If they
                       don't want to sell to us at a nice price, we'll buy
                       from Canada or Russia.  If it costs more, we'll adapt.
                       BFD.  I don't want to send some teenagers to die
                       so that I can drive as much as I want.
                          \_ Oil prices have been falling for years.
                             Plus, consumption of fuel will fall because
                             the real price of the fuel appears at the pump
                             rather than coming out of your paycheck twice
                             a month.
                       \_ It's not just cars, it's all motor vehicles.
                          Transportation costs could shoot up making things
                          cost more and cut down consumer spending which is
                          keeping the US economy alive right now.
                          \_ Oil prices have been falling for years.  Plus,
                             consumption of fuel will fall because the real
                             price of the fuel appears at the pump rather
                             than coming out of your paycheck twice a month.
                             \_ I bet you really think that too...
                                \_ that's a bunch of crap.  i recently
                                   went to a panel where a group of
                                   hydrogen fuel cell industry leaders
                                   spoke about their businesses, and
                                   they are not all that far from
                                   the automotive market.  why is 2015 such
                                   a crazy time to have the technology to
                                   market?  this is good money, being
                                   spend on good research and develpement.
                          \_ this is why one of the only *really* smart
                             things the Bush administration has done is
                             to put 1.5 Billion dollars into Hydrogen
                             fuel cell reesearch, primarily for automotive
                             aplications.  why they didn't try to get more
                             publicity for this genuinely smart move is
                             beyoned me.
                             \_ Because it's a kickback to his oil buddies
                                \_ that's a bunch of crap.  i recently went to
                                   a panel where a group of hydrogen fuel cell
                                   industry leaders spoke about their
                                   businesses, and they are not all that far
                                   from the automotive market.  why is 2015
                                   such a crazy time to have the technology to
                                   market?  this is good money, being spend on
                                   good research and develpement.
                                   \_ While at the same time, all attempts
                                      at increasing fuel efficiency standards
                                      are thrown down with bullshit arguments
                                      over "safety concerns".  Efficiency is
                                      death to capitalism.
                                   \_ Because in 10 years, they'll discover
                                      an even spiffier technology, or prove
                                      the fuel cell is the wrong answer, and
                                      have to spend another 10 years thinking
                                      of a better way to do thing and by the
                                      way it's gonna cost the taxpayer another
                                      few billion.
           \_ Was the Roman Empire or the Mongolian Empire more powerful than
              the US?
              \_ Not even close.
              \_ Depends on what you define as "powerful." For world influence
                 and economic domination, the US. For deference by neighbors,
                 allies, and occupied nations, the Romans. For sheer terror
                 and size of empire, the Mongols.
                 \_ The US gets tremendous deference from the entire world.
                    They just want us to make some noises via the UN first so
                    they can feel like they still matter.  If you read the
                    village voice or listen to certain South Africans, the US
                    is already the greatest threat to world peace so we've got
                    it on the Mongols, too.  Also, the Mongols fell apart
                    almost instantly because they didn't have enough people
                    to hold their land and they were a charisma based primitive
                    leadership system, no concept of transition or government.
                    \_ I meant deference as in defer to us or we will slaughter
                       you and those near you. And then do it anyways to make
                       an example of questioning authority. A Roman without
                       escort could walk the Empire knowing that if he were
                       hurt, all of the locals would die. The Mogols had
                       terror down pat. The VV doesn't KNOW real terror.
                       \_ How about the mafia?
                       \_ What's "VV"?
                          \_ A W with a split personality.
                    \_ Mongols didn't fall apart instantly!  Stop insulting
                        us Mongols!  We ruled Moscow for a few centuries.  We
                        ruled China, and we had the Mughal empire!
                        \_ You fell back from Europe in a flash of historical
                           time.  Just poof.  Gone with no long lasting changes
                           on the locals.  Sorry mongoloid boy but your people
                           were good for nothing but a few hollywood films, a
                           cliche or two and some Xena episodes.
                           \_ Ungrateful unguns!  If we didn't kick the
                              Islamic terrorists from their behind,
                              including the grand old daddy of terrorists
                              the old man of the assassins, and severely
                              damaged their vitality, those islamic
                              sand people would be marching all over you,
                              and putting your bad mamas in their harems.
                              Not only that, we established trade routes
                              all over central asia which helped spread
                              trade and knowledge!
              \_ How about the British Empire at its peak around the 19th
                 century or so?
                 \_ What British Empires?  Where is it?  I don't see it.
                    \_ Not now.  At its zenith, the British Empire stretched
                       over one-fourth of the earth's surface.
           \_ I would willing serve in the defense of America, but invading
              Iraq isn't about defending America. Its all about politics. A
              good war will help the Republicans in the upcoming elections
              and the establishment of a puppet regime in Iraq will allow
              US and British oil companies to gain access to cheap crude.
              These companies are big backers of the Pres. and will help him
              in his re-election bid. - !OP
              \_ The previous US-Iraq war clearly didn't help the Republicans
                 when Bush Sr. lost to CliTton and had to let him finish the
                 \_ That's not the point.  It's whether the Republican
                    leadership think it would.  Remember Max Boot the
                    republican bull dog of Daily Cal?  He proclaimed 4
                    more years of George Bush right after the Gulf War.
                    \_ Duh, anyone with a tenth of brain cell would've said
                       that at the time since he was riding the high 80's in
                       public polls.  You're stretching.
                       \_ Anyone with some brain cells would not put too
                          much faith in polls in predicting elections
                          some ways down the road.  Not all our polticians
                          have brain cells though.
                          \_ So call Max Boot and the motd poster above and
                             let them know how stupid they are to think that
                             a high poll rating now will translate into votes
                             later.  I agree with you.
                             \_ Max Boot is now working for a Republican
                                think tank and his articles had appeared in
                                the Foreign Affairs.
        \_ ok i'll bite, what's so idiotic about being against
           the upcoming iraq war?  It's kind of late to rant right now,
           maybe when I get some sleep.
           \_ Give it a rest. He was posting useful information for folks like
              me, not trying to start debate.
              \_ If you really *needed* that URL then you're not going to be
                 doing anything useful.  There was nothing useful there.
                \_ I am open to suggestions for more useful urls.
                   \_ Useful for what?
2002/9/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25861 Activity:very high
9/12    bush's gonna' do it.  he's really gonna' do it.
        \_ You just figured this out?
        \_ Um, after this morning, he might have the UN on board.
              \_ What happened this morning?
           \_ don't think anyone dare to cast the veto.
              \_ Spain and Kuwait are on board but that's not being reported.
              \_ Didn't Russia say last week that they're going to cast the
                 \_ No, they just want more IMF concessions.
                 \_ After the case Bush presented, if the UN doesn't do
                    anything, it should be disbanded.  Or at least we should
                    leave it.  If it passes resolutions it has no intention of
                    enforcing, it's just a posturing money-pit.
                    Full text of Bush's address:
                    enforcing, it's just a posturing money-pit.  Full text of
                    \_ George the 2nd's case is very one sided. He forgets
                       that the Iraq "problem" of the 1990s could have been
                       avoided had George the 1st order the taking of Baghdad.
                       He's probably got other motives too: 1. Elections are
                       coming up and there is nothing like a good war to get
                    Bush's address:
                    \_ George the 2nd's case is very one sided. He forgets that
                       the Iraq "problem" of the 1990s could have been avoided
                       I hope Russia and some of the EU nations hold thier
                       ground and veto this preposterous attack on Iraq.
                       George is also brushing over the risks involved. Iraq
                       will become YA GI grave yard like Korea and Vietnam.
                       had George the 1st order the taking of Baghdad.  He's
                       probably got other motives too: 1. Elections are coming
              another country where your ideas can get you arrested and shot
              w/o trial. America - love it or leave it. Period.
                 \_ Under the current administration America is turing into
                    Nazi Germany (we already got something like the Gestapo
                    with the Dept. of Homeland Security).
                       up and there is nothing like a good war to get
                       republicans elected 2. A puppet regieme in Iraq that
                       supplies US oil companies with cheap crude will really
                       help out his backers in the oil industry thus ensuring
                       that he has a large amount of money for his re-election
                       campaign.  George is also brushing over the risks
                       involved. Iraq will become YA GI grave yard like Korea
                       and Vietnam.
                       \_ If we lose enough troops that might shock the American
                          public into remembering that a protracted ground war
                          isn't fun and games, no matter how technologically
                          advanced we are.
                       \_ How remarkably ignorant.  The reason the elder Bush
                          didn't take out Saddam Hussein was fear in the
                          administration and country that the coalition would
                          fall apart (sound familiar?).  As far as a potential
                          quagmire goes, the same prediction was made about
                          \_ There is no armed "Northern Alliance" for the US
                             to have do the hard work for them. And the US has
                             led the UN use of sanctions against Iraq which
                             is a very sore point among Iraqis.
                             \_ The war between the Northern Alliance and the
                                Taliban can be likened to the battle between
                                David and Golliath...and David's big bad
                                brother, the B-52.
                                \_ Saddam's learned that lesson already. Unless
                                   the US starts bombing cities, B52s will be
                                   a lot less effective as will most airpower.
                                   \_ hahahahahaha...We've already shown we can
                                      take out their anti-air whenever we like.
                                      And bombs dropped from the sky still blow
                                      up things on the ground.  In fact, they're
                                      even more precise now than they were 11
                                      years ago.
                                      \_ Sigh. Not AA, not tanks, not trucks,
                                         not tanker trucks. Individuals. Think
                                         Hui, think Saigon.
                                         \_ If you think Iraq is like Vietnam
                                            (culture, geography, etc.) you need
                                            to get a grip.
        \_ YES! American People need more "Living Space."
           \_ Don't you dare compare America to Nazi Germany. Please move to
              another country where your ideas can get you arrested and shot w/o
              trial. America - love it or leave it. Period.
                 \_ America - love it or change it. Troll.
                 \_ Under the current administration America is turing into Nazi
                    Germany (we already got something like the Gestapo with the
                    Dept. of Homeland Security).
              \_ Have you considered working for John Ashcroft?
              \_ Or maybe a burning tire necklace.
              \_ Loved her. Left her. Now she does tricks on San Pablo.
              \_ Woohoo! That's America too now! You es eh! You es eh!
                 \_ Ridiculous child, you know nothing about oppression.
                    \_ But thanks to the changed America, I'll know more about
                       it. And knowing is half the battle.
                       \_ Bombing Red Cross warehouses is the other half.
2002/9/6 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25784 Activity:high
9/5     why attacking iraq is a bad idea:
        \_ What is the alternative?  In the very near future an Islamic
           state not aligned to the West will go nuclear - what then?
           Evidence has not been made public, it seems prudent to wait
        \_ What is the alternative?  In the very near future Iraq
           will go nuclear - what then?
           Evidence has not been made public, all of this rhetoric is
           taking place in a vacuum of information.  It seems prudent to wait
           until that time before engaging in conjecture.
           One would think with all of the uproar about the human suffering
           caused by the sanctions, one would want Saddam (along with the
           sanctions) to go.  Of course, there is the very real possibility
           that we are still divying up the spoils of the Cold War.
                \_ they *will* go nuclear.  the question is do they have
                   the *will* to use it.
                   \_ Whether they have the will or not, having a nuke will
                      give them more bargaining power (e.g. "If you attack
                      us, we'll nuke Israel")
        \_ So what if Iraq go nuclear? We can invade a country just because
           he might has nuke sometimes later?  Remember, we are the one
           who used nuke against civilian target in the history of mankind.
2002/8/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25723 Activity:high
8/28    Why must we fight the Iraqi's head on? Why can't we use other means
        like assassination?
        \_ I've always wondered if the gwbush administration has
           a bunch of crack smoking linguists on their staff, what the heck
           is a regime change?  has their ever been a "regime change"
           in history before?  are they still saying "homicide bombers"? - danh
           \_ That's 'cunning linguists' to you, bud.  -John
        \_ Cause we are not very good at assassination, but we are really
           good at bombing the shit out of bad mamas.
           \_ And we're bad at combining the two. Reagan and Libya (Khadafi),
              GB1 and Iraq (Hussain), and Clinton and Afghanistan (Bin Laden).
              The problem is lack of decent ground-based intelligence. Can't
              hit them if you can't find them.
                \_ Libya was fine.  They were pretty much in their place after
                   that.  We never intended to kill Momar, just scare the shit
                   out of him which I think the bomb in his backyard tennis
                   court accomplished that just fine.  GB1 fucked up by not
                   finishing the job the first time but that's not at all the
                   same as pulling a Castro a la Kennedy.  Both Clinton and
                   GB2 screwed up the Bin Laden/Afghanistan thing, true, but
                   both were afraid of the anti-war body-bag counting left in
                   the media who love to see dead American soldiers on film.
                   \_ Wrong. Reagan aimed for the palace and Khadafi wasn't
                      in it at the time. Killing wives and kids doesn't count.
                      \_ Ah, but you'd lose huge amounts of pork for the
                         defense contractors who've been hit hard by the end of
                         the cold war.
                      Libya funded activities after that (see Lockerbie
                      bombing) Hussain was a "high-level target of opportunity"
                      during the Gulf War. They could never track him down.
                      \_ Nonsense.  Find any semi-respectable reference that
                         says my buddy Momar was a direct target.  They knew
                         where Saddam was because Wolf Blitzer was reporting
                         his movements from his hotel room.  GW1 had
                         specifically stated we are not targetting him
                         personally.  Thanks.
                \_ are you implying that the multi-million pound allocation
                   to the British intel is better than the multi-billion
                   dollar allocation to the CIA?
                   \_ Hell yeah.  They have James Bond!
                   \_ Yep. The USA relies too much on technology and
                      bureaucracy, not enough on human intel. August's
                      wargames proved that an unsophisticated approach to
                      communication and basic slight of hand can devastate
                      the tech-laden, middle-management bloated American
                      military machine. The whole missle shield crap? Spend
                      a couple of billion bribing the tech folks on the other
                      side to sabotage their country's efforts or buying all
                      of the "loose" nuclear material. Cheaper and easier.
                      \_ Ah, but you'd lose huge amounts of pork for
                         defense contractors who've been hit hard by the end
                         the cold war. All those Sun buildings on the bayshore
                         frontage road in Palo Alto near Charleston used to be
                         Lockheed and Loral.
                      \_ You make it sound so simple.  Just bribe everyone on
                         the other side.  My God!  Why didn't anyone else ever
                         think of that?  Oh wait, they did.  Those people are
                         all dead or in Siberia now and hey guess what?  Not
                         everyone is bribable.  Glad you're here to generate
                         these great national security plans.  Why are you
                         being wasted here on the motd when you could be in
                         some bunker on the east coast coming up with this
                         great stuff?
                         \_ Everyone is bribable. It's just a matter of what
                            you bribe them with. It's the CIA, NSA, and the
                            folks in charge who don't trust bribery. And you
                            don't bribe everyone, you bribe the right people.
2002/8/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25491 Activity:very high
8/3     http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13710
        We're all doomed.  - danh
        \_ http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/8/1/142827/1669
           Unlike the alternet drivel, kur5hin's article acknowledges the
           actual real history of what was going on at the time.
           actual real history of what was going on at the time and possibly
           what has happened since the inspectors got kicked out years ago.
        \_ Here's the Big Lie in the article, "According to Scott Ritter, who
           spent seven years in Iraq with the UNSCOM weapons inspection teams
           performing detailed investigations into Iraq's weapons program, no
           such capability exists".  What they fail to mention is that *4
           YEARS* ago Ritter and all other inspectors were kicked out of the
                \_ the article mentions that a number of times.
                   \_ No. It doesn't.  Not once.  Quote it.  At best it says
                      the year he left and doesn't say it was because they were
                      kicked out.  Care to try again?  There are numerous other
                      lies in the article but this was the most flagrant.  The
                      article is crap and a quick read of any real news source
                      from the net reporting on it would tell you that.  It's
                      commonly known history which the article denies by
                      failing to acknowledge.  You can't change reality by
                      simply willing to be different.
                        \_ "Ritter himself and no weapons inspection
                            team has set foot in Iraq since 1998."  Back to
                            English 1a for you.
                            \_ Yes this is the part of English 1A where you
                               missed the context around that one sentence
                               which makes it *painfully* clear that they're
                               trying to claim he left because there was
                               nothing left to find, not because they were
                               kicked out.  I was waiting for you to stick
                               your foot in your mouth on that line.  Go read
                               the article without extracting sub-pieces and
                               twisting them to suit yourself.  Also, this one
                               line is still not "a number of times" as you
                               claimed and again, does not say they were kicked
                               out.  English 1A indeed.
           after wasting 7 years playing hide and seek (and losing)
           with the Iraqi military/government.  Not only can a *lot* happen in
           4 years but the odds they found and destroyed all the Iraqi WMD in
           the previous 7 years is flat out zero.  This story is crap.  For
           the record, (like Scott Ritter), I voted for Bush and I'm highly
           disappointed with the way Bush has handled _all_ of the corporate
           responsibilities mess but the real problem with Iraq was Bush Sr.
           playing global power balance politics the first time not with his
           son cleaning up the mess later.  Clinton should have done this 4
           years ago when the inspectors got kicked out and since he didn't,
           the next guy in line should do it no matter what his party.
           \_ you're wasting your time in CS, your calling is talk radio.
              \_ *laugh*  Welcome to the motd, the home of personal attack.
                 If the best you can do is personally insult someone then don't
                 bother wasting disk space.
           \_ The burden of proof on someone who wants his country to invade
              another country and cause the death of many thousands of people
              is on the invader, not the peacelover. Can you give any evidence
              that Iraq does have WMD, other than overheated Bush rhetoric?
           \_ I love the MOTD! - danh
2002/7/29 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25437 Activity:high
7/29    All my favorite PC gamer news sites are dead.  I'm down to gamespot
        which is nothing more than advertising and screenshots.  What are
        the rest of you reading?  Thanks for any URLs.
        \_ whatever happened to http://gamers.com?
          \_ dead dead dead
        \_ how about http://ign.com?
           \_ I just don't know which is why I'm asking.  All PC gamer news
              URLs appreciated.  --OP
              \_ http://shacknews.com, http://evilavatar.com    -blojob
2002/7/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25295 Activity:nil
7/6     Tuskegee Airmen leader Davis dies

i disagree with you.
\_ Indeed.
2002/6/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25242 Activity:very high
6/28    Cheney takes over government!
        \_ It's only the second time that the 25th Amendment is invoked, and in
           both times it's because the President of the United States of
           America has his anus poked.
           \_ When was the other time?  Carter getting his hemrhoids(sp)
              \_ "The only other time Section 3 was invoked was July 13, 1985,
                 when President Reagan underwent surgery for colon cancer."
        \_ "Bush said he decided to transfer powers to Cheney out of extra
            caution because the nation is at war."
           One last time... did Congress actually declare war? -geordan
           \_ you know the answer.  why don't you count how many times
              the bush administration has violated the constitution
              and tell us.
              \_ I feel so violated.  -- the Constitution
              \_ I believe that FDR was the last president to actually
                 request a declaration of war and get it..
              \_ Yawn... here come the lawyers!  Yes, sure, 'war' has a
                 specific legal meaning in this country which requires, oh
                 fuck it.  You know all this.  Fucking motd.  So pedantic
                 in a pathetic attempt to score some 'points' on some
                 mythical scoreboard somewhere.
              \_ How does Bush violate the Constitution by just saying that
                 we are a nation at war?
                 \_ Only Congress has the power to declare war. The terrorism
                    thing is a MEOW (Moral Equivalent Of War) type war. Like
                    the "war" on drugs.
                    \_ And the war on desert storms.
                       \_ And the Korean and Vietnam wars?
                 \_ Oh please, both you and Mr. Mythical Scoreboard up
                    there.  I asked if Congress actually declared war.
                    Suddenly people are pulling "Geordan said that Bush is
                    violating the Constitution" out of their ass.  And I
                    don't know about any "mythical scoreboard" you're
                    referring to.  Get a life, or at least sign your name.
2002/6/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25200 Activity:nil
6/25    Saudi Arabia working hard on bringing peace to the middle east.  Not.
2002/6/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25127 Activity:high
6/17    The international war crimes court's first case:
        \_ I thought the ICC was prosecuting Milosevic right now.
           \_ They are.
2002/5/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24858 Activity:nil 83%like:24856
5/17    "Take it to the Bridge to Stop the War" - May 25th in SF
        N o more business as usual as the United States carries out its
        attacks on the peoples of the planet.
          The All People's Coalition to Stop US Terror and Occupation is
        calling for a peaceful rally at Crissy Field and a march on the
        Golden Gate Bridge on Saturday, May 25, 2002
          The anti-war movement must raise the stakes in challenging the U.S.
        government to stop its attacks on the peoples of the world under the
         \_ Maybe you could hijack a commercial airliner and fly it into the
        so-called 'war on terrorism.' The Golden Gate Bridge is a symbol of
        the US known throughout the world and a massive march of people
        across this bridge will send a message to the international community
        that people right here are calling for no more business as usual
        while the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the
        Planning Events
          Convergence @ Fellowship Hall of Humanity, 390 27th St. Oakland
        (between Broadway & Telegraph)
        Saturday 5/11 & 5/18: Planning meetings, 2-5pm
        Thursday 5/23: Banner and placard painting, 3-11pm
        Thursday 5/23: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 6-9pm
        Friday 5/24: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 3-6pm
        Please Join Us!                              <DEAD>www.takeitothebridge.org<DEAD>
2002/5/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24856 Activity:insanely high 83%like:24858
5/17    "Take it to the Bridge to Stop the War" - May 25th in SF
        N o more business as usual as the United States carries out its
        attacks on the peoples of the planet.
          The All People's Coalition to Stop US Terror and Occupation is
        calling for a peaceful rally at Crissy Field and a march on the
        Golden Gate Bridge on Saturday, May 25, 2002
          The anti-war movement must raise the stakes in challenging the U.S.
        government to stop its attacks on the peoples of the world under the
        so-called 'war on terrorism.' The Golden Gate Bridge is a symbol of
        the US known throughout the world and a massive march of people
        across this bridge will send a message to the international community
        that people right here are calling for no more business as usual
        while the United States carries out its attacks on the peoples of the
        Planning Events
          Convergence @ Fellowship Hall of Humanity, 390 27th St. Oakland
        (between Broadway & Telegraph)
        Saturday 5/11 & 5/18: Planning meetings, 2-5pm
        Thursday 5/23: Banner and placard painting, 3-11pm
        Thursday 5/23: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 6-9pm
        Friday 5/24: Civil disobedience and nonviolence training, 3-6pm
        Please Join Us!                              <DEAD>www.takeitothebridge.org<DEAD>
        \_ I hate to remind these pacifists that the other side struck first
           and killed a few thousand civilians.  And they won't stop if we
           say we're sorry.
        \_ Is this for real? This website does not work.
2002/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24781 Activity:very high
5/9     "Why Don't I Care About the Palestinians?"
        "The Closed Circle: An Interpretation of the Arabs"
        \_ hey free republic guy, that article was even dumber
           than the usual crap you link to in the motd, are
           you ok?  sign your name someday, we'll make you meatloaf
           and cheer you up. - danh
           \_ Defend your point.
              \_ Dan doesn't need to defend his point.  He's a leftist.  That
                 just makes him magically right when he says you're dumb.  I
                 read the article expecting some ridiculous freeper rant but
                 it actually makes sense.  The arab world has produced nothing
                 of value economically, culturally, or in any other way in a
                 few hundred years.  The palestinians have the double curse of
                 being under UN run 'camps' and being hated by their 'brother'
                 arabs for 50+ years who use them as a pawn against Israel.
                 But Dan says freeper = bad, thus it must be so.
                        \_ I dunno: I'd say we value the oil that
                           all the Arabs produce quite a bit.
                           \_ Uh the arabs didn't produce the oil in the sense
                              of doing anything.  They sit on it and europeans
                              and Americans come in and do everything and pay
                              them some money for access.  This is hardly a
                              huge cultural or economic achievement to be
                              proud of.  Anyway, their heyday is over.  Saudi
                              Arabia's infrastructure was never really built
                              up properly during their big time and now they're
                              fucked.  When the oil runs out or we switch to
                              other fuels over the next 30 years, then what?
                              Back to eating sand and reading the Koran and
                              hating those evil Americans and Europeans who
                              'epxloited' them.
           \_  do i get free food if i post a link to a dumb editorial
               also?  -!op
               \_ This is only worth a "see the above reply about Dan"
 \_ http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp
2002/4/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24478 Activity:nil 61%like:24424
4/18    "I do believe Ariel Sharon is a man of peace," Bush says.
        War is Peace.
        \_ Yeah yeah and they gave Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize.  Whatever.
           \_ Ignorance is Strength.
2002/4/16 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24451 Activity:very high
4/15    The '67 war in Reader's Digest format.
        \_ What does "in Reader's Digest format" mean?  Thx.
           \_ The Reader's Digest is a print publication that gives the
              short version of printed materials.  All it means is this isn't
              a lengthy or detailed article, just an outline of events.
        \_ How did Israelis manage to lose only 600 ir 700 people while the
           Arabs lost 25000?
           \_ How did the US/allies lose ~250 people in the Gulf War and the
              Iraqi army lost, uh, hundreds of thousands?  More? Uncountable.
              \_ Because we had God(tm) on our side!
              \_ Yeah, but in 1967 there were no laser guided bombs and stuff.
                 \_ True but it's sort of like this: when you know the enemy is
                    sitting on your border all bunched up and you pre-emptively
                    attack and wipe out their airforce on day one, the rest are
                    free kills with no air cover.  It's not like unguided or
                    non-laser guided bombs can't or don't kill anyone, they're
                    just not as accurate.  You're still dead if it hits the
                    other side of the tank.
                    \_ Sounds like what the Japanese wanted to do during Pearl
                        \_ This is what happened in Pearl Harbor and in the
                       \_ except that the US wasn't massing troops to
                          attack the Japanese.
                          \_ Yes but the principle is the same. If the
                             enemy is bunched together (as the pacific
                             fleet was at Pearl Harbor or MacArthur's
                             airforce was in the Philippines) it is
                             possible to inflict heavy losses while
                             sustaining minimal losses yourself.
2002/3/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24239 Activity:insanely high
3/26    With regards to reparations, anyone who receives $$$ should be stripped
        of citizenship and forced to return to the country of most likely
        origin. These people have benefitted from coming here, despite the
        trials of their ancestors. If they take the money then they need
        to go back where they would've been as a condition. --dim
        \_ i learned everything i know about african history from
           the iron maiden album "number of the beast," so i disagree.
        \_ Did we send those Japenese-Americans who were paid reparations
           back to Japan?
           \_ The legal aspects of this case are vastly different. The
              reparations was compensation for violation of their 3rd
              amendment rights. These people were FULL CITIZENS at the
              time thier constitutional rights were abriged. They had
              a legitmate legal claim to be compensated for illegal
              search and seizure of thier property and possessions
              without due process.
              In the case of those asking for reparations for slavery,
              the plantifs have no case since they were not guarenteed
              any rights until the passage of the 13th amendment. (By
              the 3/5ths compromise slaves counted as people for census
              purposes but were not protected under the bill of rights).
              The reparations for slavery have already been paid, in the
              lives of the men and women who fought and died in the civil
              war, in the passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments
              and in the end of segreation. That the original intent of
              the founders (all men are created equal) is present in
              modern america and is as prevasive nowhere else in the world
              should be enough for anyone of any race. A handout cheapens
              and renders impotent the Freedom and Liberty that has been
              gained and defended. - !OP
              \_ I'm undecided on the issue of reparations, but it's clearly
                 ridiculous to claim that slaves have no right to reparations
                 because slavery was legal at the time.  Their claim is about
                 moral rights.  -tom
                 \_ Moral rights? Property has no moral rights, no rights
                    period. Yes slavery was a terrible thing, but it was
                                   positive for any of those inititally brought
                                   over...  though you raise an interesting
                                   point...  I'd be curious to see the
                                   statistics comparing the percentage of
                                   people killed in, or travelling to, the US,
                                   vs. the percentage killed in Africa during
                                   a comparable time frame. And it is only
                                   arguably positive for any ancestors when
                                   you consider the conditions that most
                    legal when it happened. They have no claim to compensation
                    because the there was no crime committed. I think that
                    these people should get on with thier lives instead of
                    sitting around pretending to be perpetual victims and
                    childern of slaves. You are what you believe yourself
                    to be, if you think that you are a victim, you will be.
                    \_ There's no claim against a slave owner, who was
                       within the law.  There may be a claim against the
                       government for enacting immoral laws.  (The fact
                       that the government says it's legal doesn't absolve
                       it of its own moral responsibility). -tom

                       \_ Legal precident is that the just compensation
                          of the enactment of a immoral law is to repeal
                          the law in question. As the laws in question
                          have been repealed, there is no basis for this
                          \_ That's overly simplistic.  It's not only
                             that the law was immoral, it's that it caused
                             damage, and a claim for damages certainly could
                             have merit.  A claim for damage 150 years after
                             the fact, perhaps not.  -tom
                    \_ [ comment about holocaust reparations being paided
                         dispite the holocaust being legal at the time time
                         inadvertently deleted, sorry ]
                        \_ Reparations paid by eurpoeans to other eurpoeans,
                           is not sufficient legal precident in the US.
                           I am talking about crimes commited in territory
                           where the Consitution is valid.
              \_ Uhm, where does it say its a 3rd amendment issue?
                 \_ Internment was a 3rd amendment issue. JAs had a
                    legal claim. Slaves cannot make any legal claim
                    under the law as it existed when they were wronged.
                    \_ I misread the indenting.  Nevermind.  Makes sense.
           \_ maybe. but that was different, it was wartime. wartime rules
              are different than peacetime rules.
              \_ yeah, fucking people over because it's wartime is somehow
                 a more outright offense then doing it peacetime.  whatever.
                 \_ Yes, at least there was some rationale in WWII, however
                    cooked up, for locking up American citizens because
                    they were of Japanese ancestry.   --Jon
                 and not the euro-boat-people. Think about if the
                 same things were committed today and you'll see some of
                 the flaws in your logic.
                    \_ There wasn't any rationale in any other cases? I'm
                       assuming that dim's ignorant original comment was
                       in regards to slavery? Are you trying to say that
                       there weren't countless "scientists" and philos-
                       ophers making justifications for why it was ok
                       to enslave brown people all around the globe? - rory
                       \_ Excuse me, but I think that if you think about it
                          you will find my comment enlightening. Has slavery
                          helped or hurt the people in question? --dim
                          \_ I have thought about it, and I never said your
                             post wasn't enlightening... It is enlightening
                             of the fact that you are ignorant and/or
                             racist. Are you really trying to argue that
                             slavery has had a net positive effect on
                             Africans brought to America?       - rory
                             \_ It certainly was a net positive for their
                                descendants (they live in a prosperous society
                                vs whatever african shithole they originally
                                came from), and it may have been a net positive
                                for some of them (in a sense that they would
                                have been executed as POWs in some tribal war
                                otherwise, or perhaps died of malaria).
                \_ wow when did david horowitz get a CSUA account? - danh
                                \_ It's a net negative - hundreds of years
                                   of slavery, crappy lives up till the
                                   the Civil Rights movement.  And it is
                                   the black people themselves who
                                   stood up, fought for their rights, and
                                   made better lives for themselves.
                                   Incredible to see rightwing fuckheads
                                   talking out of the their arses and
                                   trying to give credit to the slave
                                   traders for what is good in the lives
                                   of today's African Americans.
                                   \_ Excuse me but the civil rights movement
                                      was a Republican agenda item.  You still
                                      have sheet/hood wearing ex-KKK members in
                                      Congress right *now*.  Thanks for adding
                                      your biased agenda driven bit of weak
                                      historical revisionism to the motd.
                                   \_ Yup, Abraham Lincoln was black.
                                      \_ That Abe was a good man doesn't
                                         negate the fact that it was a net
                                         negative.  As for standing up for
                                         themselves, I am referring to the
                                         Civil Rights movement, not during
                                         the Civil War period.
                                         \_ Oops, sorry.
                                \_ Are you kidding me?? It certainly *wasn't*
                                   positive for any of those inititally
                                   brought over...  though you raise an
                                   interesting point...  I'd be curious to
                                   see the statistics comparing the percentage
                                   of people killed in, or travelling to, the
                                   US, vs. the percentage killed in Africa
                                   during a comparable time frame. And it is
                                   only arguably positive for any ancestors
                                   when you consider the conditions that most
                                   blacks were living in for the larger part
                                   of the last century and a half... and the
                                   fact that I'm sure that almost all brought
                                   over were perfectly content, and that most
                                   tribal warfare was caused by colonizing
                                   countries anyway.
                                   \_ The evil Westerners made the poor
                                      africans fight each other?  What, they
                                      have no free will?  Do you have a source
                                      on this last point?  People often forget
                                      that 'people of color' can be just as
                                      nasty as the blackest (whitest?) western
                                      imperialist pig-dog.
                                      \_ This is always the stupidest argument
                                         put forth.
                                      \_ People also often forget that
                                                European countries.  If you
                                                disagree, feel free to go
                                         before colonization, and subsequent
                                         "development" by former colonizers,
                                         Africa did not consist of formal
                                         nation-states at all, but rather
                                         loose tribal nations. These coexisted
                                         in relative peace (compared to how
                                         things are now). Now you tell me
                                         what all this "tribal warfare" is
                                         about...               - rory
                                         (Hint: details of the arbitrary
                                          borders imposed on the continent,
                                          and who gets to be the recipient
                                          of all the western development
                                          \_ Talk to the British and their Euro
                                             allies about the fucked up borders
                                             created in Africa to intentionally
                                             cause chaos and worsen tribal
                                             warfare.  This was not an American
                                             action.  We were a bunch of total
                                             world nobodies when this all went
                                             down.  The historical revisionism
                                             on the motd is sickening.  If you
                                             can't make a point without the
                                             outright *lying* then you don't
                                             have a point and should go away
                                             and shut the fuck up.  Thank you.
                                             \_ This whole subthread is
                                                pointless.  That US is better
                                                than African nations is
                                                besides the point.  US is
                                                also better than all the
                                                European and Asian countries.
                                                If you disagree, feel free to
                                                go home.
                                   \_ That argument assumes the slavers knew
                                      that the slaves would be better off in
                                      the new world. Since tens of thousands
                                      died enroute and tens of thousands died
                                      at the hands of their owners, this would
                                      be a very poor point to make.
        \_ We have benefited from them being here too. Should we therefore
           go back to wherever we came from?
           \_ Of course we have. That is why we are paying them. Then they
              need to leave. --dim
              \_ You shell out my $9m and I'm outta here!  Be glad to go!
                 \_ To, say, Nigeria? Doubt it.
                   \_ have you any idea what $9m can buy in NIgeria???
                   \_ I'm off to the slums of eastern europe where my peoples
                      came from... *with* my $9m bucks!  Gladly.  As soon as
                      that money clears I'm soooo out of here.
              \_ No, I think dim should go back to where s/he came from, but
                 dim's money stays here. That's more fair.
        \_ I totally agree that reparations are impractical when both the
           criminals and the victims are long dead.  In the case of
           Japanese-American internees, it made some sense since the
           the reparations were paid to actual victims.  Having said that,
           it's kind of funny when you  see people so ready to draw a
           line between themselves and the crimes committed by their
           ancestors, and in the very next breadth, they want to send
           other people "home" because these people's ancestors came later
           then their ancestors, seemingly saying that they have more
           right to be here simply because their ancestors came earlier.
           \_ I only want to send the people home who want the money, not
              all of the "victims". Capiche? --dim
              \_ First their "home" is here. Second, then those who
                 "benefited", the perpetrators/benefited should leave
                 unless they pay. but you can argue that is all of us in
                 some way, even those who just arrived yesterday. However
                 you a very confused if you argue that their
                 descendants are better off. You are mixing up your idea
                 "of going home" with reparations. You are missing the
                 big picture. If their ancestors were not exploited
                 and perhaps let to live/work/immigrate freely they
                 may have been the ones running the country today
                                        \_ hahahhahahahhah! yeah right!
                                           \_ michael jordan, oprah
                 and not the euro-boat-people. In any case, you cannot
                 put a condition onto people because Americans are free to
                 live where they want to. Think about if the same
                 things were committed today and you'll see some
                 of the flaws in your logic. It does not follow.
                 They are not related. That said, I agree reparations
                 are not going to work. The only thing possibly more
                 un-feasible is your plan!
        \_ thank you...
        \_ Even if both parties were alive, the claim would be on a poor
           legal footing.  They're seeking reparations for something that
           was legal at the time.  I suspect that such reparations would
           be deemed unconstitutional on an ex-post-facto basis.
           \_ Doesn't matter if it was "legal at the time".
              \_ Of course it does, duh.  Go look up the "ex post facto"
                 concept.  Jesus Christ some people around here are so dumb.
                 \_ You can argue it but ex post facto does not matter
                 \_ It was legal to keep innocent men behind bars
                    but after they are freed, they still sue.
           \_ CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?
2002/3/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24121 Activity:insanely high
3/15    US aid paltry:

        "Not only is the United States the stingiest of all rich-country aid
        donors (spending only 0.1% of its national income on foreign aid,
        compared with the European average of 0.3%), its aid is particularly


        "President Bush today proposed a three- year, $5 billion
        increase in American foreign aid to poor nations that support human
        rights, adhere to strong systems of law and have open markets."
        \_ Whelp!  That's that!  Our TAX PAYER FUNDED AID is being wasted so
           we should just stop bothering and end all aid programs.  Thanks for
           the link.
        \_ Get a f'ing clue.  Who exactly footed the bill for all
           UN excursions around the world the past two decades?  Who
           stations the 5th Fleet to guard the Saudi Arabian oil
           predominantly used by Europe?  The US has been the de facto
           national defense of Europe the past 5 decades.
           \_ Stationing troops in the Middle East for the benefit
                \_ So in the glofified world of political virtue you live name me
                   one country that would want us to leave.  And then
              of (primarily) American owned oil companies can't be
              called foreign aid, by any stretch of the word or idea.
              Most people would consider it thinly veiled imperialism.
                \_ You're right.  Let's pull out and let the whole area fall to
                   shit and see exactly how this had no benefit to Europe who
                   gets the bulk of their energy from the Middle East.  It's
                   funny how if we go somewhere it's imperialism and we're bad
                   and if we don't then we're isolationist and we're bad.
                   \_ Did Europe clamor for the US to come to the aid of
                      Kuwait? Your knowledge is history is very rudimentary.
                      Kuwait? The only people who cared were the Texas
                      oil boys and their puppets in Kuwait. If you don't
                      think American foreign and domestic policy is
                      in the service of Big Oil, you should at least
                      consider it.
                      \_ how does middle eastern oil help texas?  as an
                         alaskan, i can tell you that poeple up there
                         are more against our dependence on middle
                         eastern oil than anyone.  alsaska has a negative tax
                         because of *alaskan* oil riches, not oil company
                         profits in general. i don't see why texas would be
                         any different.
                         \_ you do know we get more oil from the US and Canada
                            than we do from the middle east don't you?
                         \_ Not Texans so much as Exxon, Mobile, Texaco,
                            and Chevron executives and shareholders.
                \_ So in the glofified world of political virtue you live name
                   me one country that would want us to leave.  And then
                   ask yourself why you don't live there?
                   \_ South Korea.  And I did.
                      \_ South Korea wants the American military out of the
                         DMZ?  You're stupid and a liar.
                         \_ He answered your inane question and you call
                            him stupid and a liar. You are a dolt.
                                \_ And what a complete disaster US involvement
                                   in South Korea has been.  Great point!
        \_ the problem is not with the hard core figures. It has to do with
           perception and marketing. US should save that money and spend it
           on marketing (setup proxy radio+TV stations) which portrays that
           we're not all that greedy and evil. And it should do that in
           Muslim countries ASAP.
           \_ Why?  Why do you care what "The Arab Street" thinks?  That's not
              who the terrorists are.
              \_ Sympathy lends legitimacy.
2002/3/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:24038 Activity:very high
3/6     Recently it seems that a lot of wackos (e.g. Pat Robertson)
        have been bashing Muslims as violent extremists while other
        people defend Islam as a peace-loving religion.  Obviously
        I don't agree with Pat Robertson, but if Islam is a peace
        loving religion where does the idea of "holy war" come from?
        Do only some sects believe in "holy war" or is it part of the
        mainstream Islamic beliefs and if so how can Islam be
        peace loving?  Thanks
        \_ You've answered your own question.  I suggest you take your
           personl dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the
           personal dislike of PR out of the equation and ask yourself the
           same questions you ask the motd.  The answer is self evident.
        \_ There are many interpretations of the Koran.  There are
           extremists for any religion; it all depends on how one
           was the Crusade.
                   \_ Crusades. There were a few.
           interprets it.  "Holy War" is hardly unique to Islam.  There
           was [sic. were] the Crusade.
                   \_ Crusades. There were six (plus some other forays).
                   \_ weren't the Crusades a response to the "JIHADS" and
                    bloody conquering all the followers of Mohammed did?
                      \_ Not really. The Crusaders were conquering the people
                         of the Near East and Middle East to "reclaim" the
                         Holy Land for the RCC. Muslims happen to be living
                         on that land. Gold, treasure, goods, and glory.
                         \_ duh, they had to reclaim it because the muslims
                          attacked and conquered the jewish settlements due to
                          mohammeds teaching and their their koran. It's okay
                         to claim with violence but not okay to take it back with
                         war? i don't understand.
                        \_ they conquered all the up to Spain with violent wars.
                        and killed those who wouldn't convert, this was before
                          the crusades by muslims.
        \_ jihad ("holy war") means a war against the ones primal nature.
           To wage a successful jihad one must turn ones aggressive
           nature inward and destroy the ego. The militants have grossly
           misinterpreted it. If you want a more indepth understanding
           Joseph Campbell has written and spoken about this.
           \_ Whether they misinterpreted it or not, they're now living it
              and have been killing innocent people in it's name for a few
              decades in modern times and earlier if you want to mix n match
              historical periods.  Murder by any other name is still murder.
              Do you think Joseph Campbell would like to go to Afghanistan,
              Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc, and explain
              to them they've got it all wrong?  I'm sure they'd just slap
              their heads like in a V8 commercial and change over night.
           \_ Thanks, I'll look around for that on the web.  Would you
              happen to have a URL?
              \_ You can get started at the Joseph Campbell foundation:
           \_ So is killing others via holy war discussed in the Koran?
              The New Testament doesn't explictly advocate killing one's
              enemies (although the Old Testament does).  Basically I'm
              wondering if Islam is like Christianity where the
              "official" dogma is non-violent but practioners are violent
              or like Judaism where the "official" dogma is explictly
              \_ The main problem of "dogma" is that it is often based
                 on a literal interpretatation of religious texts. Since
                 most of these texts were written metaphorically, such
                 an interpretation gets you lots of problems.
                 For example, think about the phrase "kill your enemies."
                 Who are your "enemies"? How do you know they are outside
                 of yourself and not inside? Think about that. Read
                 Campbell, he explains it like no other westerner I've
                 ever met.
              \_ This is incredibly blatant anti-semitism, and the
                 precise opposite of the truth.  Everything in the old
                 testament is included in the Christian Bible (barring
                 slight mistranslations) but the unmediated (<-key word;
                 Judaism explicitly forbids Jews to engage in the
                 literal, unmediated interpretation mentioned in the
                 previous response) Old Testament does not represent
                 "Jewish Dogma" in any way.  Jewish law is composed of
                 3000 years' interpretation and reinterpretation: the
                 Mishna, Talmud, Shulkhan Arukh, etc.  Jewish "official
                 dogma" is extremely complex (the Talmud alone fills an
                 entire bookcase, but great rabbis memorize it) and
                 pragmatic, and applies in a rational way to everyday
                 life; the closest it comes to being "explicitly
                 violent" is to say that a person in the act of murder
                 may be killed to prevent the murder.  Since I don't
                 watch the motd constantly, I probably won't have an
                 opportunity to reply to further nonsense on this
                 subject, but ... there's a reason there has never been
                 a Jewish "Holy War," barring Bible stories.
                 \_ What the hell are you thinking?  The motd is the perfect
                    place for lies, misinterpretation and blatant
                    anti-semitism.  How dare you bring coherent fact to the
                    motd and crush all debate?
        \_ What a stupid question!  Go read freerepublic since you're really
           only interested in one answer.  You might as well ask, "How can
           Christians really believe in the 10 commandments when they bomb
           abortion clinics?"
        \_ "Kill them all. God will recognize his own."
                           \_ I believe that its "God will sort the dead".
                              \_ Translation varies.
           \_ wasn't that a Metallica Album?
2002/1/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23642 Activity:high
1/23     The U.S. has announced the next site of its Terror War...the
        Philippines' southern island of Mindanao. More than 1,000 armed
        U.S. troops will be marching on Filipino soil in a war that the
        Filipino people oppose with regular mass protests all over the nation.
         The Filipino people know from firsthand experience that U.S.
        militarization will only lead to more human rights violations,
        civilian deaths, environmental destruction and the continued
        displacement of hundreds of thousands of people. Despite the people's
        successful efforts to kick out the U.S. military from the archipelago,
        the Philippine government has once again demonstrated who its true
        constituents are by allowing them to return without question.
         The Filipino masses know that the only solution to terrorism is to
        address the root causes - poverty, landlessness, joblessness,
        homelessness - through genuine economic reform, land rights, and a
        democratic government that truly represents the needs of the majority
        rather than the few. Taking their lead, it's time to protest this
        new development right here in the Bay Area.
         Filipinos For Global Justice, Not War Coalition
        For more info call (415) 431-1918
        \_ And stop racial profiling!  Let's have a *BIG* group hug, everyone!
        \_ But then the Phillipines would cease to be a cheap sex
           destination for horney Westerners and Asians.
        \_ we better call them or they'll blow up in sproul
        \_ The Filipinos don't realize all the kidnappings are hurting their
           tourist industry?
        \_ Is this in response to the boring motd comment below? If this is
           true, how about a URL?
2002/1/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23616 Activity:very high
        "The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today - my own
        government" - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. April 4, 1967
          WED., JAN. 16, 5 P.M., Powell & Market
        No New War Against Iraq, End the Sanctions Now.  Join this
        protest on the 11th anniversary of the Gulf war.  Stop the War
        Against Afghanistan!  Stop Racial Profiling & Racist Attacks!
          MON. JAN. 21 (Holiday) March & Rally for Peace & Justice
        March Assembles: 10:30 am 4th & Townsend (Caltrans Station)
        Rally: 1 PM Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, Civic Center.
        \_ How many knee-jerk catchphrases can you stuff under one roof?
           I'm surprised AIDS & friends are not in there.  -John
           \_ Shut up, John.
                \_ Don't forget Mumia!
           \_ John, they missed oppression of women, they forgot about doing it
              for the children and there's not a peep in there about red
              spotted snooker fish or the yellow tipped wiggly wumpus shrub.
              And landmines, they deserves a line of it's own.
        \_ Go-go gadget ISO!
        \_ Don't forget the Congo - No new volcano!!!
        "Congo Volcano Eruption Will Hurt Wildlife - Experts"
2002/1/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23593 Activity:insanely high
1/18    NY Times Writer Took $50,000 "Consultancy" Fee
        From Enron To Give Them "Cover"
        \_ Oh no!  A NYT writer?!  I'm shocked!  He took more than 99% of
           politicians in either party?  It's a scandal!
2002/1/4 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23460 Activity:high
1/4     Now we're willing to fight a war with big lies?  How degraded have we
        \_ Republicans as usual: Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, Chile, etc.
        \_ Business as usual: Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, Chile, etc.
        \_ Dave Culler in the article!!!
        \_ Why does the Petagon insist on dropping leaflets written in
           English and not in the local language of the region? Is this for our
           \_ I think the English leaflets are for the press only.
        \_ Hey genius, war time propaganda is thousands of years older than
           you are.  Get over it.  Do you think it was degrading that we
           dropped leaflets in WWII?  Gosh, some of them might not have told
           the truth, too!
           \_ and contrary to the movie about hiroshima, there no leaflets
              dropped in hiroshima to warn them
              \_ I was thinking Germany, however, I'd like to see a URL for
                 your hiroshima claim.
        \_ What's wrong with lying to the enemy?  They surrender, lives are
           saved in the end.  All is good.
           \_ Well supposedly we want to tell the enemy that we are the good
              guys, and good guys shouldn't lie.
                \_ You're so naive.  "good guys shouldn't lie".  Yes, this is
                   just like your dungeons and dragons paladin going to
                   Afghanistan.  Uh huh.  Made level 2 yet?
           \_ If you think they just lie to "the enemy," I've got a bridge
              I'd like to sell you.
                \_ By telling you the truth in real time they're telling the
                   enemy the truth in real time.  I don't want to know the
                   truth at the moment Live On CNN With Geraldo! if it means
                   American lives are put at risk.  It isn't a video game, it
                   is war.  I *do* want to know the truth afterwards though.
                   Yes this does mean that sometimes things will happen in my
                   name as an American citizen that I don't want to happen and
                   I won't even know until maybe years later, but knowing
                   about it in real time wouldn't stop it.
2001/12/31 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23416 Activity:very high
12/30   Indians only days away from full mobility.  Pakistan mobile now and
        might launch first strike.  Both sides moving missiles near front.
        Stop deleting this.  Nuclear war is just as important as an arcade
        in the South bay: a post you didn't delete.
        \_ personally, i never delete posts, but i can see their point.
           there are thousands of news sources out there a click away
           with every different viewpoint, language, and depth of detail,
           and hundreds of places this can be debated online. political threads
           like this on the motd usually end up as heated debates of very
           long posts between just two people, which are not fun to read.
           since most of us read the motd for fun, that means your post
        \_ A nuclear conflict there might not be so bad.  Their limited
           capability means the damage will be constrained within
           Asia.  A war can semi-permanently set back both countries and
           possibly China, which might not be a bad thing.  India, although
           currently it pretends to be pro-US, eventually will become a bigger
           threat with a more functional government and military and less
           fondness for western ideas.
           \_ Not so bad?  You are such a humanitarian...
           \_ Yawn. This has been going on in Korea for 50 years.
        \_ Hey, thanks for the news!  Now that the motd's turned into World
           News Now, I don't have to go to the effort of firing up my Web
           browser.  Now, *does* anyone have the address of a good arcade in
           the South Bay?  If we're all going to be annihilated in a nuclear
           firestorm, I wanna go out having the most fun that a CS major can
2001/12/22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23345 Activity:very high
12/21   From Jon Carroll:
        "SOME HAVE SAID that this is wartime and that people should watch what
        they say in wartime. But, you know, this isn't wartime. Wartime is when
        civilians are drafted to answer their country's call, and stay-at-home
        spouses move into jobs in shipyards and steel factories, and we are
        called upon to save aluminum and tin and purchase blackout drapes.

        Now we are being called upon to purchase consumer electronics and
        airline tickets. We are told that we defeat terrorism by acting
        normally. All we are called upon to sacrifice is our right to think
        freely and to express our opinions openly. And if we fail in our duty
        -- well, there are always the talk radio blowhards and the spontaneous
        mobs to remind us what good citizenship means."
        \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting
           his family.  happy holidays.  - danh
        \_ So JC thinks the Revolution wasn't war time?  1812 wasn't?  French-
           Canadian wasn't?  The army going west to wipe out the natives
           wasn't?  Taking the southwest from Mexico wasn't?  Korea wasn't?
           Vietnam wasn't?  JC is an idiot.  Not every war will be a clone of
           WWII.  For lack of anything better to do I read this idiot every
           day on BART.  His idiocy makes me laugh.  He should stick to
           stories about his kids and being a dad and give up the attempt at
           political genius.  He's less coherent than the typical motd poster.
        \_ the soda Free Republic Guy (tm) must be at home visiting
           his family.  happy holidays.  - danh
        \_ last time i checked, it wasn't wartime because
           ONLY CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR.  and as much as ted turner thinks
           he can declare war, well, de jure, it is a right reserved only to
           the legislative branch.
           \_ haven't you heard?  Rupert Murdoch can declare war.  Apparently
              so can George Soros.  de facto is what counts.
           \_ You're right.  All those other wars where we drafted people and
              they died on foreign lands from foreign bullets weren't wars.
              They were just police actions.  Wake up.
2001/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:23266 Activity:high
12/16   george jr.: "father, no matter what i do, the country
        despises me.  the world despises me."
        george sr.: "back in the day, when everyone knew what
        a piece of shit i was, i'd get my best friend sadam to
        back me.  sure it'd take a few extra bucks, but he'd
        back me."
        george jr.: "so what should i do?"
        george sr.: "one day, pretend you're worried about the
        future of america's education and while you're there,
        unaware of course, there'll be random attacks.  do one
        by the pentagon, not on it, but near, and I mean NEAR
        it so that everyone won't blame the us.  then hit the
        world trade center."
        george jr.: "why the world trade center?"
        george sr.: "because you moron that's the people that
        hate you! but if all the investors are scared to work,
        then no one will continue buying into tech.  people
        will feel there's a need for my national security
        defense plan."
        george jr.: "wait, a minute!  That was my idea!"
        george sr.: "i told you to read my lips when you were
        doing the interview. as i was saying, people will
        finally buy into, okay, OUR, national security defense
        plan.  people will be dumb enough because they're like
        sheep to think that they can get work in defense
        george jr.: "But dad, no one wants to work in
        george sr.: "You idiot!  aren't you listening?!?!?!
        if we dump a few terrorist attacks, which are cheap
        since islamic people come from 3rd world nations where
        the women are ugly, people will be scared into
        believing we need a national defense improved.  that
        way, the economy will improve but improve not on crap
        like the internet or that whole new economy gibberish
        that clinton guy was such a proponent of.  it will be
        on what us republicans always deemed appropriate: on
        the back of the good ol' working government!  in
        addition, it'll justify all that push for increases
        surveilance over that anarchic, hippy internet thing
        as corporations like the music industry, disney, the
        movie industry, and microsoft will want that have been
        so generous in "donating" their time and other, ahem,
        resources, to our worthy cause.  those damn, hippy
        scientists should've never let the net go out of ARPA.
         anyway, but now that we're, I mean, huh huh, you're
        in charge again, it'll only be a matter of time before
        the american public will renew all of the republicans
        in congress.  we'll show the americans that we're
        sensitive and have a *REAL* plan for boosting our
        economy.  It'll just be like old times."
        George Jr: "but the old times sucked!"
        George Sr: "Shut up!  Get out!  You infidel!  Go back
        to your Mexican day laborers!  And don't come back
        until you're willing to listen!"
        George Jr: "Yes, dad."
2001/12/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23250 Activity:very high
12/15   Bush: "I don't know whether we're going to get him tomorrow or a
        month from now, or a year from now, or in my second term of office. I
        don't really know. But we're going to get him," he continued."
        \_ <DEAD>www.smirkingchimp.com<DEAD>
        \_ Is self-confidence a crime now?
                \_ you misspelled "arrogance"
                   \_ Bush would've spelled it that way.
                        \_ Funny that no matter how well the man does some
                           people are still stuck swallowing leftist media
                           noise.  Do you also think it's ok to sell secrets
                           to foreign powers for DNC cash infusions?
                           \_ Do you have any evidence backing up your paranoid
                              fantasies? URL please.
                           \_ You're as bad as all those people in the Arab
                              world who unequivocally accuse the US of
                              doctoring the bin Laden tape without any
                              actual evidence they it was doctored. Like
                              them believing anything al Jazeira says without
                              proof, you believe anything the RNC says
                              without proof. So unless you actually saw
                              Bill Clinton hand over a pile of secret military
                              documents to another country, shut the fuck up.
                                \_ Amazing.  So unless I *personally* see a
                                   crime take place it couldn't possibly have
                                   happened?  So let's say I break in to your
                                   place while you're gone and steal all your
                                   stuff.  You later find your stuff at my
                                   place but you didn't see me take it.  You're
                                   cool with that?  What's your address?  I'm
                                   coming by for a visit.
                                \_ Congratulations, this is among the most
                                   pathetic posts I've read on the motd.  As
                                   we all know, it was just a vast right
                                   wing conspiracy. Uh huh.
                                   \_ This is nice. You have nothing more
                                      intelligible to say so you retort
                                      with an inane comment. And stop
                                      putting words into my mouth.
                                        \_ Ok, ask yourself why Clinton
                                           was spending his time jerking
                                           off in the Oval Office sink
                                           instead of counteracting
                                           terrorist threats?
                              As for Bush doing well, people said he was
                              doing a great job handling the matter hours
                              after the attacks, even though he didn't actually
                              do anything yet. It was the NYC mayor who was
                              in charge of the situation there, not Bush. But
                              it's natural to rally around your president
                              during a crisis as big as this. The same thing
                              happened to FDR right after Pearl Harbor. Does
                              the fact that thousands of people died all of
                              a sudden make him a great president? No. He's
                              done things by the book and, of course having
                              the largest military in the world, it's not
                              hard to come to the conclusion that we're going
                              to kick the Taliban's ass. In my opinion, Bush
                              has made several critical faux pas, most of
                              which were by his attorney general. His ability
                              to communicate effectively as a statesman (yes
                              it is part of your job as president) has been
                              meager at best and his choice of words an
                              embarrassment to our country. And I don't think
                              he has the diplomatic skills to handle the
                              international coalition in the long term. He's
                              already done and said a lot of things to piss
                              off a lot of countries (the war itself is not
                              one of them - military tribunals, security
                              council veto, planning to wage war against
                              Iraq, etc...) and the only reason why other
                              countries are condoning the US is because we
                              were victims to a horrific attack. Once the
                              war in Afghanistan is over, we're going to lose
                              support and isolated from the world unless
                              Bush changes his attitude. Of course, I'm sure
                                \_ While Bush is no Reagan, compared to Gore
                                   hes the fucking Messiah.  What are you
                                   an ambassador from a foreign country?
                                   Exactly why are we supposed to care
                                   what socialist euro-trash think?  This
                                   argument about pissing off other
                                   countries is ridiculous, yet its
                                   repeated incessantly by the media pukes.
                              there are csua Republicans here who are
                              insistent that "other countries" in the world
                              are irrelevant and that the UN should be
                                 \_ You seem a little upset.  Perhaps some
                                    Prozac?  I've been waiting for years to
                                    hear exactly why it matters what other
                                    counrties think of us.  So let's say Syria
                                    and Gabon and uhm BFE all decide they hate
                                    the U.S. so much they're declaring war.
                                    They pull their ambassadors out and print
                                    bad things about us in their government
                                    run newspapers and on their governement
                                    run tv/radio.  Ok.  Yeah?  So what?  And?
                                    Still waiting....
                                    \_ If we cared more about what
                                        other people thought of us, we
                                        might not have had whackos crashing
                                        planes into buildings.  That's not
                                        enough reason for you to care about
                                        international relations?
                                 \_ Keep on watching CNN little sheep.
                                    \_ I read the NY Times, not the Drudge
                                       Report. And stop trying to pretend
                                       to be 3 separate people posting
                                       to the motd. I know you posted the
                                       other 2 above.
                                        \_ Nothing wrong with the Drudge
                                           Report.  99% of it is just links to
                                           big media newspapers online.  Unless
                                           of course you have a problem with
                                           big media (which you should if
                                           you're smart).
                           \_ As opposed to selling weapons to foreign powers
                              to fund a rebellion against another foreign
                                \_ What's wrong with that?  You really don't
                                   see any difference between selling out your
                                   own country and screwing around with some
                                   little banana republic???
                           \_ Non-sequiteur.
                                \_ Not at all.  Care to try again?  Look up
                                   the word "hypocrite" and come back.
                                   \_ And, while we're at it, how to spell
                                      "non sequitur."
2001/12/13 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23232 Activity:insanely high
12/13   "Army Working on Weapons-Grade Anthrax, Report Says"
        Is the US under certain treaty not to do that?
        \_ Probably not. The US usually does things that they would also
           criticize other countries for doing (conducting nuclear tests,
           spying, etc...)
        \_ Does it matter?  It's not like the rest of the world isn't doing
           the same thing to the greatest extent they can.
           \_ Yeah, it matters. One of the main things we accuse Saddam
              Hussein of doing is violating that treaty. If the report
              is true, we are liars and hypocrits to boot.
                \_ I feel so ashamed.
                \_ Yes, and so what?  In the real world of international
                   affairs might makes right.  I'm sorry if this fact is
                   painful to you but it is so.  The rest of the world knows
                   it, loves it, and lives by it.  Lemme know when you have
                   your own country and how ideally you run it.
                   \_ listen fuckchop. you live in the US. you have a say.
                      this is not a dictatorial regime. are you saying you
                      have no problem with your country (and you as a
                      representative of it) breaking a treaty and building
                      immoral weapons? if your sentiment is shared by all
                      americans, then i feel completely comfortable with the
                        \_ Weapons aren't immoral.  Go look up the word.
                           Enough with the trollish concept of "if you think
                           or do xyz then it justifies sep11th".  That has
                           been overdone.  Make a real argument if you have
                           one.  Anyway, in this country there isn't a single
                           sentiment shared by all Americans so I guess you'll
                           have to continue having false discomfort with the
                           idea of 3000 or so innocent civilians getting
                           murdered for no reason.
           \_ W wipes his ass with treaties like that.
                \_ When has the US ever kept to a treaty?  Going all the way
                   back, the US, like just about every country ever has signed
                   treaties and ditched them the moment they became annoying.
        \_ Making and keeping small amounts of anthrax for prophylactic
           purposes is permitted under the treaty.  Didn't you know that
           Ft. Detrick is where USAMRIID is located?  You know, like that
           movie, Outbreak?
2001/12/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics] UID:23225 Activity:very high
12/11   Express your condolences to three Special Forces heroes killed in
        action: http://www.quietpros.com
        \_ You meant those three killed by our own stupid friendly fire?
          \_ I'm what many of the morons I read here would call "liberal" but
             I still think any soldiers killed in the line of duty deserve
             the proper respect, even if the circumstances were a sick joke.
          \_ 3?  That's nothing.  Clue up.  The US Feds estimate that about
             15% of US casualties in WWII were friendly fire.  From 1 in 6
             down to 3 out of thousands is a good record.  Next time you mouth
             off try knowing what you're talking about.  You'll sound much
             less stupid and maybe what you say will be taken seriously instead
             of as the ignorant rantings of a child.
             \_ Although it is correct that casualties due to friendly fire have
                gone down drastically, these are not the relevant statistics.
                Since we have not had thousands dead in the war against
                Afghanistan, you cannot compare these two statistics.
             \_ It's not from 1 in 6 down to 3 out of thousands.  It's from 1
                in 6 in WWII up to 1 in 3 in Vietnam up to 3 in 4 in
                Afghanistan.  Duh!
          \_ While I respect our soldiers, I don't understand why they
             automatically become heroes, or why we should feel like we owe
             them our life or something.  I mean, these are professional
             soldiers, not draftees, and fighting is the sole purpose and
             goal of their job.  I mean, if they did something above and
             beyond their call of duty, then I would call them heroes.
             \_ I was of the same opinion ten years ago so I understand you
                but I think you will find a different take on this as you
                get older and see more about where our security comes from.
                   -- condescending old liberal fart
                \_ A lot of people contribute to our security.  Not just
                   soldiers.  In fact, what our enemies fear most are our
                   technology which our scientists and engineers contributed.
                   \_ Absolutely! We laud and reward the scientists and
                      engineers for their achievements. And recent events
                      have shown that we mourn their passing in violence,
                      as well.
             \_ Just for starters, 400,000 WWII, 50,000
                Korean, and 50,000 Vietnam US soldiers gave their
                lives to protect your freedom.  Have you no shame?
                \_ How did the Vietnam and Korean soldiers protect my freedom?
                \_ Like I said, most of those are draftees, so it is different.
                   Also, soldiers at that time have a much higher risk of
                   death or injury than soldiers in the Gulf War or
                   War in Afghanistan.  If we fight a high-casualty war
                   today, we will be drafting people again.
          \_ What is the definition of friendly fire anyway? I've heard
             conflicting things... like shots during practice attacts,
             cross-fire in actual fighting, etc.
        \_ in response to no particular part of this thread, be grateful
           for the sacrafices that those in the US armed forces make to
           try and make this world a little safer for all of us.
           \_ I am as grateful to them as I am to our policemen, firemen,
              doctors, teachers, scientists and engineers.  I do think that
              our armed forces personnel are underpaid though.  They deserve
              to be paid well.
2001/11/27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23111 Activity:nil
11/26   Thursday, November 29 5 pm 22 Warren Hall UC Berkeley
          Harvey Weinstein, MD Director, Center for Human Rights UC
          Maria Holden, Ph.D.  Psychologist Survivors International
        \_ We can stop right here.  Without further reading it should be
           obvious where this is going.  We'll go on anyway for kicks.

          What are the effects of war on civilian populations? How will the
        US war on Afghanistan affect public health at home? What has the
        response to war been among health professionals here and abroad?
        What are our responsibilities as public health professionals in
        times of war?

        \_ Well we know that sitting on our asses doing nothing but destroying
           aspirin factories in North Africa wasn't very healthy for several
           thousand New Yorkers.  Bluster and nothing sure wasn't the right
           public health choice.

          While the U.S. public health system has concentrated its
        resources on the response to bioterrorist threats, health
        professionals elsewhere habe voiced their criticisms of war as
        being inherently damaging to the health of individuals and
        populations. Major medical journals such as the Lancet have

        \_ I think getting hit with a 757/767 is more damaging than watching
           the nightly news.

        featured articles discussing the millions of Afghani civilians
        who may freeze or starve to death this winter, detailing the
        limb-threatening injuries unexploded cluster bombs will cause to
        children for decades to come, and criticizing as propaganda the
        initial "food from the sky" approach of the U.S. military towards
        providing humanitarian aid. Most U.S. medical journals have

        \_ I suspect life was much better under the Taliban than it will be
           now that the world is on the ball over there.  It was better when
           the aid agencies had to bribe the Taliban thugs to get food in to
           the people than now.

        discussed in depth the threat of and response to bioterrorism on
        U.S. soil but have remained largely silent on the health affects
        of military action. Meanwhile, the American Public Health

        \_ The "public health affects" of military action in another country:
           nothing has blown up in this country recently and roughly 1000
           foreign criminals are no longer able to harm American civilians in
           this country and a reported 360+ criminals have been rounded up by
           other nations.

        Association recently passed a resolution opposing the war on

        \_ The who?  Who exactly is the APHA?

        Afghanistan. Come here from two public health professionals about

        \_ Is either of these people a credentialed and practicing health
           professional?  In what field exactly?

        their experiences working with survivors of war, then stay to
        participate in a discussion of some of the questions raised.
          Free and open to the public.

        \_ Of course entry is free.  Who would pay?
2001/11/14 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:23038 Activity:nil
11/14   http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP111B.html
2001/11/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22954 Activity:nil
11/6    Oh thank god someone finally censored the politics thread.  I might
        have mistakenly engaged in some sort of almost intellectual debate
        with other anonymous people otherwise and maybe even learned
        something!  Keep up the good work!
        \_ We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with
2001/11/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22944 Activity:very high
11/5    Protest the xenophobic Feinstein/Kyl legislation targeted at
        foreign students.
          That's THIS THURSDAY! Starts at 4:00 pm in SF (Montgomery Street
        Bart), One Post Street. Meet at the Berkeley Bart at 3:00/3:15 to
        go in together.
                  Also, afterward, if anyone is interested, there is an action
        at KRON TV organized by the SF Town Hall Committee to Stop War and
        **Millions at Risk of Starvation as Winter Approaches**
        \_ just because we attack another country who aren't white, that
        automatically makes us racists? perhaps you are the racist
           \_ That has nothing to do with US military action in Afghanistan
              you moron. It has to do with the proposal on student visas.
              \_ moron, see the "also.."
        \_ Liberal application of hyperbole makes liberals harder to take
           seriously.  Why don't you guys try sounding more intelligent?
        \_ when is the simpson's halloween special?
           \_ Tomorrow according to http://snpp.com.
        \_ can you not see the link between war and racism? war engenders
           bravado, which immediately leads the rest of you fucks to say
           shit like "yeah, kill all those  sand niggers". that's why.
           \_ yeah, kill all those infidels
        \_ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/05/ED128789.DTL
           what stanfurd protesters don't understand
        \_ Frankly I'd like to see the money going to educate foreigners
           redirected for US citizens.  Does this make me a xenophobe?
           We (and allies) feed, protect, develop and educate the
           world... what more do you want?   Why are you race baiting-
           just admit it you want a free lunch.  You're as bad as
           as Jackson and Sharpton.  Evil imperialistic America - uh huh.
           \_ no US money is spent on foreign students you idiot.  Foreign
              students pay out of state tuition.  If they're grad students
              they have to earn their scholarship or work as a TA like
              everybody else.  Isn't there a shortage of TAs?
              \_ There is only a shortage of TAs because the flood
                 of foreign students has driven down wages and working
                 conditions for domestic TAs.
              \_ I know a few foreign students who got a lot of money from
                 the US in various forms...
2001/11/4 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22929 Activity:nil
11/6    http://www.greenparty.org/bangor.txt
        Military detains Green Party leader for speaking against war.
2001/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22908 Activity:moderate
11/1    do we actually have a Declaration of War? How are we going to "go in"
        and assasinate the leader of Al-Qaeda?
        \_ No. Good question.
        \_ Congress authorised the Prez to do what he needs to do.  Was it an
           official "legal" declaration?  No.  You don't declare a legal war
           on criminals, only foreign nations.  How are we "going in"?  With
           B52's, mostly.  Questions?
        \_ I read that there was no declaration of war for the Vietnam War
           either, and that's why the govt couldn't ban any anti-war
           protests during that time.
2001/10/29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22858 Activity:nil
10/29   A disturbing article about hidden agenda behind war on terror.
        The author claims that terrorism is just an excuse, the real reason US
        air forces are bombing Afghanistan today is to bring in a government
        that would let us run an oil pipeline that reaches the oil rich
        ex-Soviet republics in Central Asia:
        \_ A disturbing example of idiocy.
        \_ Hell, if the bombing can stop the terrorists from killing another
           5000 US civilians on US soil with no warning, who cares.
        \_ No, the main point of the article is that bombing to kill terrorists
           is wrong and ineffective and America needs to be more careful about
           its foreign policy in order to get the credibility it needs to fight
           terrorism. The oil stuff is an unsubstantiated aside.  He quotes an
           unnamed US diplomat and talks about secret government approval.
           Where did he get this information? A really interesting discussion
           discussion would be:  What are these "non-violent" alternative
           that people speak of and how would they work? Why is it that
           pacifists believe that non-violence works against ALL opponents?
           Since when have we ever found a silver bullet for any problem?
           [formatting god was here]
           \_ Yes, please list the serious non-violent alternatives on MOTD.
                \_ Drum circles?
        \_ Didn't we see this in the last Bond movie?
           \_ I think there are some parallels in True Lies, also.
        \_ The article must not be letting facts get in the way of journalism.
           The Taliban in fact said that US companies could put a pipeline
           through the country for natrual gas (I don't think oil really is
        \_ This "War" on terrorism is more about boosting Bush's fading
           polling numbers than anything else.
           \_ No no!  That's Mr. Clinton and Monica!!1!
2001/10/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22849 Activity:high
10/26   "How do I make people nervous?" I asked.
        "By doing whatever you're doing."
        "What am I doing?"
        "I don't know, but whatever it is, you're going to stop doing it!"
        One reporters brush with The War on Terrorism:
        \_ Sitting around in a yoga position with your eyes closed with
           cops all around you makes people nervous.
           \_ They had already detained him, forced him to erase his
                pictures and confiscated his pen(!) before that happened.
                Nice try, though.
2001/10/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22841 Activity:nil
10/26   "Iran Says U.S. Paying for Giving Anthrax to Iraq"
        \_ Pay no attention to the man in front of the screen pleasing
           a domestic constituency. The same day that this statement was made,
           the Iranian ambassador to the US given given a visa so he could
           travel to the US Capitol to have dinner with several Congressmen.
           And you can bet your ass that Rafsanjani had given a thumbs up
           to that trip/dialogue.
           \_ Isn't it interesting that US officials say that Russia, US and
              Iraq are the only 3 known nations which posseses anthrax as
              a biological weapon?  Doesn't Iraq seem out of the place among
              the 3?
                \_ Not really.  Any country willing to spend the bucks could
                   have done it.  Iraq has been spending bucks.  Where's the
                   conspiracy?  They fessed up to multiple tons of the stuff
                   post-1991.  Why are you surprised?  Read a newspaper instead
                   of conspiracy FUD.
              \_ Iraq initiated its biological warfare program in 1985-86.
                 According to the Iraqi's own declaration, they produced 8500
                 liters of concentrated anthrax with some 6000 liters filled
                 into fifty bombs and ten Scud warheads.
              \_ Newsflash:  Isle of Skye in the UK is declared off-limits
                 for several centuries because the soil is so soaked with
                 anthrax and similar shit from military experiments in the
                 1950s.  There is no guard there, you're just forbidden by
                 law to visit, and expected to be sane enough to not do so
                 on your own volition.  Got a boat and a biohazard suit
                 lying around?  -John
                 \_ Is that the Gruinard Island off the NW cost of Scotland
                    where they infected sheeps with anthrax and then buried
2001/10/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22683 Activity:high
10/10   Is there any theologically approved way of keeping a dead Muslim
        martyr out of heaven?  Let's say we turn the corpse into Alpo or get
        some prisonyard Bubba to make the dead body his sweet..umm..corpse.
        \_ yes, kill his entire family and immediate relatives
        \_ Drag his dead body through the streets of NY. Then feed what's
           left to a colony of maggots.
           \_ Wasn't that what happened to the Delta force troopers in
              Mogadishu?  How civilized.
        \_ You are sick.
           \_ I think that's a very reasonable question.  You have to find
              a way to deter a guy if he's not afraid of dying.
              \_ Keep rationalizing.
              \_ I think this makes sense.  In ancient Chinese culture, not
                 keeping the whole dead body together (ie. part of the dead
                 body being at somewhere else) is a good deterrent.
                 \_ Did that deter the PLA soldiers charging en masse
                    at the risk of being blown into thousands of pieces by
                    artillery fire?
        \_ I think we establish a Palestinian state and lift the UN embargoes
           on Iraq, then the martyrs will no longer have a just cause to
           die for and won't go up to Houri-land.
           \_ Don't forget removing the props for the corrupt governments
              in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.  Did anybody catch the NPR
              Frontline piece on Al-Quaeda last night (KQED)?
              \_ yeah I saw that.  The U.S. infidels must remove its military
                 presence from the Saudi holy land.
           \_ Those people(bin Laden & gangs) will always find reason to
              fight American.  Who knows, they could say that Americans
              or other non-muslims are infidels, thus deserved to get wiped
              out from the face of the earth.  Look at what Taliban is doing
              to its people.  Not all Afghans are fundamentalist, but
              Talibans are forcing them to live according to fundamentalist
2001/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22601 Activity:moderate
9/23    reading list:
        the truth about the CIA?
        \_ supplimental reading:
2001/9/23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22598 Activity:very high
9/20    Who wants to start a "what day does the bombing begin" pool?
        \_ That was one of the most fun things we did in the coop, for the
           Haiti invasion (until Carter fuffed it for everyone.)  If only
           for all the self-righteous cave people it pissed off.  -John
        \_ Yeah, now I see why www access to motd.public was removed.
           \_ eh? whatchew smokin fool?
              \_ crack.  lots and lots of crack.
           \_ Now, if I had said "who wants to start a 'how many civilian
              casualties will the US cause in its bombing campaign' pool?"
              you might have a point. But I did not.
        \_ http://www.debka.com
        \_ I don't think you'll see the sort of bombing you're looking for.
           I think this is going to be like a new Cold War.  This time the
           opposing philosophy is a twisted version of extremist Islam.  Last
           time it was communism.  In 10 to 15 years after the fundamentalist
           muslims are crushed and their children are listening to the latest
           off the Top 40 charts, we'll have a few years of peace before some
           one else steps up to the plate to take a swing.  It's the price of
                \_ Maybe the fundamentalists are right about us being the
                   \_ Maybe?  So you think a bunch of civilian killing, zero
                      freedom dictatorships are morally superior to a
                      democratically elected most-free market economy with a
                                             \_ I read that as motd-free.
                      free press, open travel for citizens, the right to
                      criticise the government without fear of death or
                      imprisonment?  You're either a troll or insane.
                      \_ I vote for "joking"
        \_ how about "Which U.S. city gets nuked first?"
           \_ I'll take that bet.  My answer: none.  A little anthrax crop
              dusting through a few east bay districts would wake a up a few
              people though.  Those that survived....
2001/9/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22594 Activity:kinda low
9/22    scary shit:
        http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iraq/956-tni.htm - danh
        \_ It is scary that salon is still online.
        \_ also note the above article is from 1995.
        \_ what tasty and delicious theorizing! i recommend these links be
           turned into a chain letter. better this than fake-nostradamus and
           old Canadian editorials from the 70's.
                \_ what part do you think is so off the wall?  or are
                   you just being tom-like, tom?
                   \_ why do people always think i'm being sarcastic? i said
                      what i meant, these are fascinating articles and i think
                      average people should hear about this. i'm not tom.
        \_ .50cal long-range sniper rifle, standard SEAL issue.  I honestly
           don't see what's so difficult about this--I'd imagine that a lot
           of scruples against "executive orders" would have fallen by
           the wayside by now...-John
           \_ .50BMG is primarily for "hard targets" like tranports,
              equipment.  Stick to .308/.300/.338 for people.
2001/9/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22571 Activity:nil
9/21    What does having a really hawt chick that's taller than the
        guy checking her ID have to do with the war on the Taliban on
        the http://www.latimes.com page?

And the messages above this line do?
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36335 Activity:nil
9/18    Want to replace a header in a binary on Solaris
        with null, non-outputing characters.  I have
        tried ^H and ^G to no avail.  I don't want
        junk or even spaces in its place, what can i use?

ladenix 5.0 (jihad)

login: _

jihad% mv /bin/laden /dev/null
jihad% diff /bin/laden /dev/il
jihad% wc butthead_apologists_on_soda
Stack overflow
Segmentation fault (core dumped)

ladenix 5.0 (jihad)

login: _

jihad% mv /bin/laden /dev/null
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36334 Activity:nil
9/19    For those inclined to post articles from the Guardian.
        "... the extrapolation of your own adolescent rebellion into a
        cosmic political philosophy in which the most powerful
        country in the world personifies the domineering adult
        authority against which you pit yourself"
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36332 Activity:nil
9/19    Another one for the America haters
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22523 Activity:very high
9/19    "Respond to War Mongering Media Coverage"
        Don't delete this again. I will continue reposting.
        \_ War is good for the economy
           \_ oh yeah, that's why the market has been so enthusiastic this
              week.  -tom
           \_ Oceania is at war with Iraq.  It was always been at war
              with..Afghanistan.  Repeat.  Oceania is at war with
              Afghanistan.  It has always been at war with Afghanistan.."
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22517 Activity:high
9/18    "Never get involved in a land war in Asia" - the Venetian
        \_ It's "the Sicilian," dummy.  And it should be qualified, "when the
           USA is funding and training the other side."
        \_ He's dead.  Like *he's* so smart.  Draft Cary Elwes to lead the
           US attack force!

ladenix 5.0 (jihad)

login: _
2001/9/19 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:22516 Activity:nil
ladenix 5.0 (jihad)

login: _
2001/9/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22514 Activity:high
9/18    http://www.foreignaffairs.org/Search/document_briefings.asp?i=19981101facomment1428.xml&nb=0
        \_ A link to Patton's speech:
           Patton was already using terms like "He Man" and "superman".  I
           thought those were first created as comic characters after WWII.
2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22502 Activity:nil
9/18    http://wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46771,00.html
2001/9/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36317 Activity:nil
9/17    The die is cast:
        \_ The Free Republic is used for porn steganography by Bin Laden's
           Gum Arabic producing cronies.  And you're an arab terrorist
           commie bastard for reading it.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22493 Activity:high
9/17    Question: To those of you opposed to various military actions, what
        do you propose the US do?  I understand the objection(s) to military
        response.  I'm not debating that.  What action(s) do you propose we
        take instead?  I'm looking for serious responses.  Please, I'm not
        looking for answers in the negative as to what we shouldn't do.  I
        honestly want to know what you think we should be doing, if anything.
        Concrete stuff, not simply "follow international law" and other
        fuzzy stuff like that.  Thanks.
        \_ my position on the subject is that "war" is completely the wrong
           concept to invoke because it's an extremely loaded word with
           lots of consequences. i think what you want is to ARREST the
           group of international bandits using whatever means necessary.
           war is an overraction. this was not an act of war. this was
           a criminal murder. you need two nations for war, with citizens
           and soldiers. what you have is a bunch of renegades. Go arrest
           them and all this anger will be dealt with properly. -ali
           \_ But most of these renegades have support from one of a variety
              of middle eastern nations.  arresting a specific group may
              eliminiate one cell, but it does not solve the problem -- as
              long as the support is there, the terrorists will continue to
              exist.  If someone is harboring a criminal, they implicitly
              become accomplices; if a national entity is harboring these
              criminals....what do you suggest?  Asking nicely hasn't turned
              up any real results thus far, and violating another nation's
              sovereignity is an act of war...        -mice
              sovereignity (crossing their borders w/o permission to make an
              arrest) is an act of war...        -mice
              \_ Most of them come from saudialabia and uae, whose
                 dictatorship governments are very friendly to us.  Doesn't
                 that tell u something?
                 \_ Yes, that you're not very well informed.
        \_ nuke pakistan
           \_ Pakistan appears to be cooperating.  Why do you want to nuke a
              potential ally in the area which likely has intelligence
              information on bin Laden?
        \_ let's do the aghgan people a favor and take out the taliban.
           they are oppressive even to their own kind. no nukes just invade
           and set up a new government and hand it over to saudi arabia or
           or india.
            \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for
               the afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still
               it's a good cause.  However do not hand it over to
               banana republics like saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to
               banana republics like saudialabia or indo, but hand it to
               UK or Japan.
               \_ yah. hand it over to the gaps of the world, or the old navies
           \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for the
              afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still it's a good
              cause.  However do not hand it over to banana republics like
              saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to UK or Japan.
           \_ oh yeah, cool... let's overthrow another gov't like we tried
              to do in Nicaragua, etc.
           \_ If the Taliban is harboring terrorists, then that's precisely what
              we will do.
        \_ I think we need to bomb a few random deserted place in Afghanistan
           without killing civilians just to show that we are committed to
           military retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           mility retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           Laden, but it'll settle national anger and keep our face.  After
           that, pump all the resources into CIA and do the real work of
           getting bin Laden and destroying the terrorist network.  We need to
           revise the ban on CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating
           whether or not CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It
           just happens to be the agency we have at this moment.)
           just happens to be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ Moron.  Many terrorist camps are near civilian settlements.  Why
              kill off people who are innocent bystanders and could tell is
              where the bad guys are?
        \_ Change US policy over time to not support Israel? Not something
           I believe, but maybe others do.
           \_ Doesn't this just "reward" the terrorists for their actions by
              giving them what they want?  How would this discourage further
              violence against us to further shift our policy until our policy
              becomes whatever they want because we fear them?
              \_ Yeah, I think so... I agree with the previous poster's
                 statement though... I think we need to get Osama et. al.
                 through diplomacy, intelligence, etc and additionally
                 evaluate our actions that were creating this climate of
                 terrorism (eg stop giving money to Israel).
              \_ You can't think that way. That's the attitude of a brat who
                 refuses to stop doing something because his pride won't let
                 him admit he was wrong. IF something is wrong for us we should
                 stop. Such as our own support of terrorism in the past, and
                 Israel's support of of terrorism in the past...read up on what
                 they were doing to get the British out.
                 \_ Get the British out of where?
                    \_ Israel. Duh. King David hotel, Semiramis hotel (bombing
                       leading to collapse of building). Other stuff like:
                       It's hard to find objective sources on any of it though.
                 \_ Sure I can think that way.  Here's another way to think
                    of it: the nagging brat who screams until his mother gives
                    in to his demand for the new power ranger toy.  Then he
                    wants the other ones.  So he screams.  Then he wants a
                    bigger cookie, then another cookie, then no curfew or
                    bedtime, then he wants....  When does it stop?  If mom
                    had punished his poor behavior (the screaming) at stage
                    one, then the lack of reward would, in time, cease his
                    screaming fits.  How's that for an alternative line of
                    thought on the psychology of children and terrorists?
                    \_ I said "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG FOR US." Dimwit. Demanding
                       cookies isn't a valid analogy for any case of terrorism
                       I can think of.
           \_ What do we get out of supporting Israel?
           \_ We need to get little boy Yasser and little boy Sharon
              together and keep spanking their arses until they agree to
              stop their bitch fight.  Aren't the Arabs and Jews fucking
              relatives?  Don't understand why we should be suffering for
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the
              whole world.
           just to show that we are committed to mility retaliation.  This
           won't actually do anything to get us bin Laden, but it'll settle
           national anger and keep our "face".  After that, pump all the
           resources into CIA and do the real work of getting bin Laden and
           destroying the terrorist network.  We need to revise the ban on
           CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating whether or not
           CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It just happens to
           be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ it's a war, if we don't do anything to take out a government that
           hides behind a terrorist group then we are inviting nations to create
           terrorist groups (but really working for their government's interests)
           where their government can easily detach themselves but in actuality
           they support them. We have to show this is B.S. and any nation that
           harbors terrorist is using this terrorist group as their own weapon
              their darn family feud.
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the whole
2001/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:22491 Activity:high
9/17    "Afghanistan: A Nightmare Battlefield"
        It seems it'll be hard to win a full-scale war.
        \_ We don't need to take and hold territory.  Just kill the right
           people.  This is very different from the warm water port the Soviets
           were looking for.
           \_ It depends on whether the goal is to get nedalnibamaso or to
              eliminate the talibananas.
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em off
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em
        \_ just use nukes to make big holes in the earth where the caves are
           \_ three words:  radioactive dust clouds
           \_ Are you stupid?  afghans are some of the most friendly people on
              earth.  Also they produce some of the most beautiful babes on
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took his
              wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took
              his wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              Lord, who was very nice to the Isrealites as mentioned in the
              bible, also hail from somewhere there.  It's the mad foreign
              mullahs from saudi alabia who enslaved them that we should
           \_ Hey, let's try to limit civilian deaths, and not just wantonly
              kill people like the terrorists just did.
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22488 Activity:high
9/16    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/16/1647231
        How to defend your privacy and freedom -- and why you need to do this
        TODAY. Deadline: next Friday.
        \_ how should I send my letter?  I know e-mail seems more impersonal
           than snail mailed letters.  what about faxes?  I assume that the
           USPS is not back to full operating capacity.
        \_ should I fax or snail mail my letter?  I assume that the post office
           isn't back to full capacity yet.
           \_ (USPS ~= Faxes) >> email.  For some Senators/Reps, USPS==Fax.
              Most folks in Congress aren't very technically clued, and don't
              give nearly as much weight to email as something that actually
              comes in on paper.  If you can actually get your Congress Person
              on the phone, or make an appointment at their local office,
              that's even better.  Probably the best way to do this is to
              request that they schedule a phone conference or meeting in a
              letter sent by mail or fax.
              letter sent by mail or fax.  As the poster above indicated, USPS
              is probably right out if it needs to get there RSN, so fax.  If
              you don't own a fax, most copy shops will let you fax things for
              $0.50-$1.00 per page. -dans
           \_ Dan's assesment of USPS/faxes is right. A personal phone call is
              better than either. If possible, a personal visit to their office
              in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from talking
              to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf
           \_ Dan's assesment of email vs snailmail/faxes is right. A personal
              phone call is better than either. If possible, a personal visit to
              their office in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from
              talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf
              talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alex
              \- congresspeople ignore stuff not wrapped to <80 cols --psb
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22487 Activity:high 75%like:36307
9/16    US plans to retaliate against 60 nations:
        \_ Bullshit. That is not the headline of the story and it's not what the
           story says. Read it again.
2001/9/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22483 Activity:nil
9/15    Afghans left frightened and alone as war looms:
        \_ The amount of evil created by those who run that country defies
           comprehension.  -John
           \_ They are the product of 1980s US policy in that region.
                \_ So you are saying we should have helped the Soviets
                   take Afghanistan, and rolled out the red carpet
                   for them in Pakistan.  How can there be this
                   many morons at Berkeley?
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22482 Activity:insanely high
9/15    The state of america today
        "There are two nations and cultures now
        living under the star-spangled banner."
        \_ "ramble"
2001/9/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22439 Activity:nil
9/13    Vladimir Lukin, a deputy speaker of the Russian parliament:
        "U.S. foreign policy has been characterized by a high degree of
        self-confidence, complacency and intoxication with its own power
        following the Cold War. If the U.S. prefers to pretend that it rules
        the world, such myopia will continue to result in horrible acts of
        \_ If Russia could get back to as strong as in the USSR era, they
           would do the same too.
           \_ that's not the point
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22426 Activity:high
9/13    http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba02bf8631c.htm
        Read message 14
        \_ 14(re israel) or 13(re russia)?
           \_ the numbering of the comments is really confusing.  message 14
              is about russia, not israel. (message 1 is the article itself.)
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?  I think the original
              poster was pointing out the second to last paragraph ("Two nights
2001/9/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22425 Activity:high
9/12    Does our military do background checks on enlisted personnels and
        \_ Yes. Its also required for civil service or contract work on
           military bases.
        \_ Very cursory ones.
        \_ Timothy McVeigh was a Gulf war veteran.
        \_ Very cursiory ones.
           \_ what a moronic comment. your point? Did you even bother to
              read his history and how he got disenfranchised AFTER the
              Gulf War, especially because of Waco?
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36278 Activity:nil
9/12    I'm compiling a list of actions that we can take against the
        terrorists.  Please add to this list.
        1. bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age.  They don't have any
           natural resources that we need.  It's useful as a nuclear test
           site though.
           \_ Afghanistan is already in the stone age. All we can do is
              to make it a big nuclear crater.
        2. finish the job with Iraq.  After killing saddam, we colonize the
           country and take over their oil fields.  Put the iraq soldiers to
           work in the oil fields.
        3. Deal with the palestinian problem once and for all.  Move them all
           to Iraq and work the oil fields.
        4. While we're at it, bomb Iran as well.  Take over their oil fields
           and put them to work in the oil fields.
        5. Send in our very best Christian conversion people.  Pat Robertson,
           Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, etc.  It's time for them to abandon
           Allah and come to Christ!
        6. Deport all non-citizen Muslims and Hindus from the US.  To comply
           with the US constitution, we can't touch them if they're citizens.
           But by god, let's get rid of all the Hindus on H-1 visas.  They
           all look and smell the same anyway.  The US is no place for people
           who worship animals like elephants, rats, or Allah.
           \_ Is this supposed to be humurous or are you seriously stupid?
        \_ hahaha
2001/9/12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22409 Activity:nil
9/12    How about a csua t-shirt that says,
        "Now is not the time for justice, now is the time for WAR!"
        i bet it would sell well right now.
        \_ Hi paolo!
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22404 Activity:high
9/12    Bush to declare a Jihad against Mohammedian terrorism!
        \_ Motd poll: Should we "nuke and pave" everything between
           jerusalem and kashmir (ie the 90% of the muslim world)
           in order to solve this problem forever?
           \_ that wouldn't have stopped oklahoma city or the Tokyo sarin
              gas attack.
              \_ By this problem, I mean the muslim terrorist jihad
                 problem. I think that we can deal with the other
                 problems as law enforcement issues. This is bigger
                 than law enforcement. The muslim race is threat to
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be eliminated
                 from the face of the earth.
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be destroyed.
                 problems as law enforcement issues, but this problem
                 is bigger than law enforcement. The muslim race is
                 threat to peace, freedom, prosperity and civilization
                 and must be eliminated from the face of the earth.
                 \_ You need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.
                 \_ We need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.  Oh, and
                    don't forget India.
                    don't forget India and its 100 million mullahs!
                    \_ India?
                    \_ India?  You mean Pakistan?
                    \_ And the Hsinjiang (sp?) province in China too.
           YES: .
           NO:  ..
                \_ Wow, chamberlain lives!
                   \_ Don't be an idiot.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22403 Activity:nil
9/12    Bush to declare war on Jihad.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22399 Activity:high
9/12    <DEAD>www.stratfor.com/home/0109112355.htm<DEAD>
        US and counter terrorism.
        \_ What got to me in this article (which is why I posted it) is the
           notion that, even if we find a single 'corporate' entity to pin
           this on, that it's not going to be over.  That this likely to be
           covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years.  We may
           be facing many more inscidents of the type we just experienced.
           this on, that it's not going to be over.  That this is likely to be
           a covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years.  We may
           be facing many more incidents of the type we just experienced.
           I find this somewhat disturbing.
        \_ I think if we allow ourselves to declare war against something
           other than a nation, we can throw away all the legal principles and
           counter-attack and kill as needed.
           \_ The idea is, the US marches in to afganistan, says
              "We know you are hiding Bin Laden: turn him over, or
              be counted as part of his organization -- this makes you
              a target".
              \_ The idea is that we drop a few dozen h bombs from
                 palestine to paksitan. We make the middle east a
                 wasteland for all eternity.
        \_ Why don't we send in the commandos to get that bastard?
            \_ because previously, that would be an act of war.
               Happily, we're now at the point where we dont care if we
               have to declare war to do so.
               have to declare war to d oso.
        \_ Man that site is slow.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22390 Activity:high
9/11  Some mass email I got. look for original quote on
      There will be a great thunder (collapsing of buildings),Two brothers
      (World Trade Buildings) torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress
      endures (America), the great leader will succumb(whoevers in charge
      of destruction), The third big war will begin when the big city is
      burning(New York)" - Nostradamus 1654
        \_ wouldn't "the fortress endures" be more like the Pentagon?
        \_ feh. There will be a great thunder (i farted), two brothers torn
           apart by Chaos (my shits) while the fortress endures (my ass), the
           great leader will succumb (me), the third big war (battle with
           constipation) will begin when the big city is burning (my
           hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway).
        \_ Nostradamus didn't say this, see http://fury.com/article/925.php
           great leader will succumb (me), the third big war will begin when the
           big city is burning (my hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway).
2001/9/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22360 Activity:very high 66%like:22353
9/9     Take the red pill:
        \_ i will save the rest of you the trouble:
           "capitalism bad, communism good".
           \_ If that is what you got from it, I question your reading
              comprehension skills. It is no way complimentary of
              comprehension skills. It is no way complementary of
              \_ I love it when morons criticize people.  "Duh, your
                 reading comprehension sucks."  Look up "complementary",
                 it doesn't mean what you think it means.
                 \_ Your vocabulary sucks too. "comlementary" !=
                    "complimentary". Look it up. He, unlike you, used
                    the word correctly.
                    \_ this is unfair. someone corrected the original post.
              \_ well, okay, maybe just "capitalism bad". not sure what other
                 point the overlong drivel had. at some point i ceased caring.
              \_ I think either the article failed to point out that the USSR,
                 being the biggest communist country, also did more or less
                 the same things as mentioned in the article, or it purposely
                 avoided that fact.
                 \_ What does USSR have to do with it?
                    \_ The article seems to blame warfare and imperialism on
                       capitalism, while in fact those problems were common to
                       both capitalism and communism.  It's like when someone
                       finds that a big percentage of students in every
                       university cheats in their exams, he writes an article
                       on the topic "a big percentage of students in University
                       X cheats in their exams".  It's not incorrect, but it's
                       \_ I guess that is one way to think about it. But I don't
                          know anyone who seriously advocates a communist
                          dictatorship as a response to the problems of
                          limited democracy and corporate control of the media.
                       both capitalism and communism.
                       \_ I guess that is one way to think about it.
        \_ sorry, i couldn't get past the stupid matrix analogy.
           "The propaganda lies of yesterday were recorded and
           became consensus history--the fabric of the matrix."
           I just can't make myself believe that anyone who could
           say this with a straight face has anything reasonable
           to say.
        \_ Donate all your belongings to PETA and go live in a cave
           deep in the forest.
           \_ DEEP in the forest.  I don't want to run into you
              on a random hiking trip.
           \_ People for the Eating of Tasty Animals?
2001/9/8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:22353 Activity:high 66%like:22360
9/7     http://www.wholeearthmag.com/ArticleBin/374.html
        \_ "Escaping the Matrix. What if consensus reality is a
            fabricated illusion? Are you ready for the red pill?"
2001/7/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic, Computer/SW/WWW/Server] UID:21955 Activity:nil
7/25    http://www.wikipedia.com
        Contribute your E190 research paper to posterity
2001/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21516 Activity:moderate
6/14    Are high-tech companies required by law to hire minorities (African
        American or Native Americans)? If the law requires Southwest and
        United Airline to hire fat ugly women, why doesn't the law require
        IBM or Intel to hire non-Asians? Or such law is already underway?
        \_ the law requires that you can't reject an applicant  because
           s/he is ugly and fat, unless someone who is not ugly or not fat
           also applies for the same job.  In that case, the law requires
           that there is a reason why the ugly is not preferred or that
           the fat is not preferred for reasons other than for the sake
           that the fat is fat, and the ugly is ugly.
        \_ the law requires that you should read this:
           \_ and i thought i'd never see the word "downloadeth"...
           \_ holy shit that is hilarious.
              \_ yeah. i thought you guys would get a kick out of the 7 eyed
2001/5/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21262 Activity:high
11/7    This is a very, very proud day for us!  Especially me, George W,
        beat Al Gore!  It's just like David and Goliath, only this time,
        David won!
        \_ More like the Battle of Marathon. The Greeks defeated the
           Persians ensuring that peace, freedom, democracy and prosperity
           would survive for all time. I shudder to think of the state
           of this country, her freedoms and her prosperity if a idiot
           like Gore had won.
           \_ Yeah, it would have been great. Instead we now have to deal
              with an even bigger idiot named George.
              \_ George may not be the smartest kid on the block, but
                 at least he knows that tax cuts are good, building
                 power plants is good, helping american corporations
                 is good, missle defense is good.
                 So far is biggest mistake has been in not parking
                 the USS Enterprise in the South China Sea and bombing
                 the RED CHINESE COMMIE SCUM out of existence.
                 Instead of flying P3s, we should be flying B2s with
                 fully armed nukes over Shangi.
                 \_ Great just what this country needs: another bullshit
                    war staged expressly for the purpose of bolstering
                    weak-ass public opinion polls.  *sigh*  Might help
                    the economy I suppose.  I mean, what's a few million
                    chinks mean to anyone, right?
                    \_ "bullshit war"? I'm talking about the battle for
                        freedom, prosperity and democracy against the
                        forces of totalitarianism, communism and evil,
                        but I guess that doesn't mean much to you.
                        \_ troll harder.  Faster!  Harder!  Shove that troll
                           in me and make me scream like the whore I am!
2001/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21230 Activity:very high
5/10  From McVeigh's own words, censored by the US Media:
                                \_ censored my ass. this is old news.
      "Therefore this bombing was meant as a pre-emptive (or
      pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and
      control centres within the federal building. When an aggressor
      force continually launches attacks from a particular base of
      operations, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to
      the enemy. Additionally, borrowing a page from US foreign
      policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was
      becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building
      and the government employees within that building who represent
      that government. Bombing the Murrah federal building was
      morally and strategically equivalent to the US hitting a
      government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations." -FC
        \_ Why would anyone bother to censor crap like this?  And if it was
           censored, how did you get the quote?
           \_ How do we justify calling it crap?  I'd like to see him hanged,
              but his statement above doesn't seem illogical.
              \_ He's a whack and a mass murderer and his 'statement' about
                 being some sort of warrior for good and the american way is,
                 at best, just an incredibly lame rationalization.  It's crap.
              \_ us bombing iraq is a state taking action against another
                 state. someone bombing a us building, is a citizen
                 against the state. the rules of engagement are different
                 and methods of enforcement are different. also, if iraq could,
                 it would retaliate against US. in the same way that US
                 it retaliating against mcveigh.
                 \_ I dont understand what the problem is about paying
                    some schmuck $1mil to do exactly what mcveigh did, and
                    leave the country. If mcveigh did that, he never would have
                     been caught. But apparrently iraq doesnt wish to waste
                     its money like that. Its not a "cant", its a "wont".
                     Because if they did that, and iraq was discovered as the
                     instigator, the US would bomb the crap out of iraq.
                     This whole iraq "issue" would have been resolved a long
                     time ago if there was all-out war between the US and iraq.
                     \_ Who really cares what a whack job like McVeigh thinks?
2001/4/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:21049 Activity:high
4/20    Stupid protesters. They should study history. Idiots don't understand
        globalization prevents war by making countries dependent on trade.
        \_ although the "interdependence theory" is one many people argue for
        [see e.g. Rise of the Tradin State by R. Rosencrance] the naive version
        is simply not true based of the evidence. You think Germany and the
        rest of Europe didnt have complicated trading relationships in the
        early 1900s? --psb
           [see e.g. Rise of the Tradin State by R. Rosencrance] the naive
           version is simply not true based of the evidence. You think Germany
           and the rest of Europe didnt have complicated trading relationships
           in the early 1900s? --psb
        \_ (Though if they don't play by the rules, we beat them up, like Iraq)
           So in the end they shouldn't be protesting the loss of jobs, it's
           better than the loss of lives.  - ex-protestor/communist
        \_ And we declared war on Iraq because of our trade agreements with
           \_ because by disrupting the flow of oil to heavily dependent
              europe and japan, it would affect the global econ.
2001/4/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21040 Activity:high
4/20    Why do we still have sanctions against Iraq when obviously the Iraqi
        gov't does not care?
        \_ "obviously".  You make this statement based on what?
           \_ the Iraqi gov't does not capitulate even though the Iraqi people
              and children suffer and die. So simple logic tells me that our
              sanctions hurt the innocent and do not accomplish our goals.
                 \_ Simple logic tells us no such thing. "The children
                    suffer and die", whose fault is that? Its the fault
                    of the children's parents. If the parents cared about
                    thier children, they would overthrow the iraqi gov.
                    and establish a free society that wasn't interested
                    in state sponsored terrorism.
                    Since the parents don't do that, it is logical that
                    they don't care about thier children and thus why
                    should we care?
                    And furthermore, why are the dependent on supplies
                    from the US to survive? Can't they live on what they
                    make in thier own country? No, uh, then they have to
                    play by our rules or suffer the consquences. If you
                    want my stuff, then be prepared to deal with my terms.
                    \_ This is the most childish agrument I've heard.
                       Let's suppose for one moment that you don't
                       like the US government, why don't you overthrow
                       it to show the iraqi parents 'how to do it'.
                       Maybe it's time you get out of soda hall and
                       see the real world.
                          \_ You miss the point. The original argument
                             is as suspect as the one advanced here.
                             Both are equally invalid.
                       \_ Yeah maybe you should try. But know what,
                          you will fail. Why? Because this is the
                          greatest nation on the face of the earth
                          and quite possibly in all of god's creation.
                    \_ like above post says, this argument is ridiculous.
                       the government controls the military. a bunch of
                       starving people can't just overthrow the gov't.
                       the eastern bloc communist countries coudn't just
                       revolt. and it isn't just a US sanction, the US
                       maneuvered the UN into a UN sanction by forgiving
                       a bunch of debts in return for votes.
                       \_ Yeah, like Solidarity in Poland didn't overthrow
                          the government? And the founding fathers didn't
                          overthrow the government? And the Indian National
                          Congress (literally lead by starving peasants)
                          didn't overthrow the government. The list goes
                          on. Machine guns may kill a few people, but the
                          will of the people will eventually triumph.
                          If the people in iraq are unwilling to do anything
                          about thier conditions, its thier problem not
                          And what is this BS about the UN getting
                          "manipulated". Its about F'ing time they
                          did something our way. Its not enough
                          that the UN gets my Tax $s, they want to
                          spend it the way that they want. Screw
                          that. As long as its our $s at work, its
                          our way. The UN wants different, let 'em
                          earn thier own money. Until the UN should
                          If you think that our way is the wrong
                          way you are welcome to leave the US and
                          go live in whatever 3rd world hell hole
                          suits you better.
              \_ Our goals being what?  Iraq still has a nothing army and isn't
                 militarily in a position to hurt anyone outside their own
                 borders.  Mission accomplished.  You thought we had some other
                 goals?  Sanctions are about isolation.  Iraq is isolated.
                 \_ okay fine, with this argument you admit the US does not
                    care about human rights. so what then gives us the right
                    to prattle about human rights to china?
                     \_ No it doesn't.  It says the world isn't the nice little
                        black and white place you want it to be.
                        \_ no, it's about the US fucking over people so that
                           soccer moms can keep driving their SUVs.
                           \_ No its about the jealousy of other nations
                              that we have enough prosperity for our
                              "soccer moms" to drive SUVs. We worked
                              hard for it and they want to take it
                              away via state sponsored terrorism.
                              We have every right to prevent them
                              from doing that.
                    \_ we care about human rights. The people in iraq
                       are oppressed by the current government. There
                       are only two ways to set them free. Bomb the
                       current government out of existence or starve
                       it out of existence. Starving is cheaper than
                       bombing, though bombing would be quicker.
                       I favor starving, since its cheaper.
                        \_ bombing is more fun.  I love those CNN giant type
                           "WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST!" headlines on the tube.
                           \_ So is there some sort of CNN conspiracy where
                              CNN backs all wars, otherwise CNN would have no
                        \_ This is the problem. If we truly believed the
                           rhetoric of Bush and Bush Jr. we should have
                           destroyed the Iraqi government like we destroyed
                           the Nazi government. And if they are doing
                           threatening things we should do it now. Otherwise
                           sanctions just 'kill babies'. If you think about it
                           the US probably kept Saddam in power because it
                           serves US interests. It lets us keep a firm grip.
              \_ eventually they will all die, and we will send in
                 our oil companies to run the place and we get cheap
        \_ so what happens if we lift the sanctions and the iraqi
           government starts funding programs of weapons of mass destruction
           targeted at the US? - non troll
           \_ well they are doing that anyway right? or we wouldn't have
              sanctions, eh? besides, china funds weapons of mass destruction
              targeted at the US and we don't have sanctions on them. what
              i'm saying is our methods don't solve the problem, they only
              hurt the innocent.
              \_ we should have sanctions on China. I agree that sanctions
                 don't solve the problem, but its better than bombing.
              \_ See above about our goals.  And there are degrees to things.
                 Funding isn't an either/or deal.  They might still have mass
                 weapons programs but they're a shadow of what they could be
                 if there weren't sanctions in place.  The world is not black
                 and white.
              \_ i agree sanctions suck and kill babies, but I can't think
                 of a better solution.
        \_ never fear, the us is gearing up for another hot war in the
           persian gulf. Haven't you noticed all the military propoganda
           on the tv these days? Start paying attention and it'll become
           clear. We'll be at war again within a year. :(
           \_ what's wrong with that? i want to watch some real violence/death
              on TV.. not enough of it. besides the iraqi are secretly
              arming. the coalition has fallen apart.
              \_ The Iraqis are not secretly arming. They're doing it quite
2001/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20818 Activity:nil
3/16    So if you go to http://cnn.com you will see 'Puffy'Combs found not
        guilty".  Lets see, there's a campaign reform bill, a sub
        accident, mideast problems, a hijacking in Saudi Arabia,
        and Mir is about to come tumbling down and somehow CNN
        manages to get a story about some rapper waving a gun around
        on the front pages.
        \_ The problem started when you "go to http://cnn.com".  Why would you
           go to a crap news org like cnn for anything worth knowing?
2001/1/28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Health/Disease/General] UID:20456 Activity:very high
1/27    Iraq has nukes?
        \_ This hasn't been picked up by any of the major wires. Perhaps there's
           a reason.
           \_ Perhaps.  And the "major wires" are the source of all truth?  If
              it isn't on the AP wires, it can't possibly be true?  The "major
              wires" always tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the
              truth, and successfully report on every event on the entire
              planet?  Uhm... ok.  If you want to believe that.  I'm not saying
              the story is true.  I'm saying that the "major wires" aren't as
              big a deal as you seem to think.  The story may or may not be
              true, thus the "?" at the end.
        \_ and Sadam has blood cancer
2001/1/8-10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20267 Activity:moderate
1/7     Just saw Traffic. 2.5 hours is way too long to simply tell the message
        that we're badly losing the War on Drugs.
        \_ Maybe if you took some drugs it would change the time.
        \_ Maybe if you considered how much worse things would be without the
           "War on Drugs" you'd see that 2.5 hours is way too long to spend
           on a bad message/propoganda.
           \_ traffic was not propoganda and i dunno what "bad message" you
              thought it had.  it presented a pretty unbiased view of wtf is
              going on in the "war on drugs" and how it affects people on
              various sides of it.  i thought it was very well done and was
              thought-provoking.  it didn't tell you what to think at all.
              \_ An unbiased view?  What drugs are you on?  It's pretty
                 obvious where the director and the writer stand on this
                 issue.  Those 2.5 hours are used to _convince_ you that
                 it's a losing war.  And a good 2.5 hours it was, too.
                 It's worked on you and the original poster, hasn't it?
                 Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, too.  But I think
                 you had better bring a spare brain the next time you go
                 see a Hollywood movie, kid.
                 \_ the point of the movie was not that it's a losing war.
                    that is already obvious to anyone with a brain.
           \_ Who would be worse off now? Prison guards? Corrupt policitians?
              Anyone else?
              \_ Well, ok, I didn't actually see it and don't really care one
                 way or the other but I do object to the propoganda spew about
                 "losing the war on drugs" from the original poster.  No one
                 has any idea either way what this country would be like for
                 better or worse or in what ways without the anti-drug thing.
                 \_ The war on drugs didn't stop Keanu!
                        \_ And I'm sure we're all better off for it.  Ask his
                           (dead) buddy, River Phoenix.  But, oh, you might
                           not remember him.
                                \_ is this a troll? in case it isn't, the
                                possibility that a substance can be abused
                                doesn't mean it's morally "wrong" to
                                use, much less warrants a law. by your
                                argument, alcohol should be outlawed, too.
                                \_ GUNS dont kill people. People kill people.
2001/1/7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:20263 Activity:nil
1/5     Yet another Republican war continues killing innocents long after the
        war is over.... http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010105/80/aur7g.html
2000/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:19431 Activity:high
10/7    National Debt culprits:
        Johnson(D)      $51,085 M       3.2%/yr
        \_ guns and butter
        Nixon(R)        $133,604 M      6.7%/yr
        \_ vietnam
        Ford(R)         $171,230 M      14.1%/yr
        \_ WIN = whip inflation now
        Carter(D)       $275,676 M      10.4%/yr
        \_ national malaise
        Reagan(R)       $1,780,214 M    23.6%/yr
        \_ reaganomics / military build-up
        Bush(R)         $1,467,350 M    13.5%/yr
        \_ see above
           \_ sharp increase one year prior to gulf war
        Clinton(D)      $1,496,997 M    4.7%/yr
        \_ what can i say?
           \_ point of inflection 1 year after being sworn into
              office. someone had to undo what bush and reagan did.
                \_ Debt, shmebt.  Now that he finally has a real crisis
                   to deal with, he shows how useless he really is.  -John
                   \_ what's the real crisis? oil prices? if so, ride bike!
2000/5/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:18308 Activity:nil
5/20    Why was the engineering commencement so dead this year?  No
        entertaining flying tortillas really, and least not to the
        extent of '98 where where were flying like a whole barrage
        of Gulf War missiles...  then some old fucker came up
        and told us not to "throw that shit around."
2000/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:17892 Activity:very high
3/30    I don't necessarily have a problem with affirmative action,
        but I think it's strange that some companies have affirmative
        action programs AND claim not to discriminate based on race.
        Affirmative action specifically discrimates in favor of certain
        races for an allegedly good cause, but it still discriminates.
        It seems like these companies should either say the have
        affirmative action progromas or say they don't discriminate
        based on race but not both.  What do other people think?  I
        am missing something or do most corporations and universities
        have contradictory policies?
        \_ If a particular race maintains a percentage of the population
           in general and a company tries to maintain that same representation
           in its work force, is that discrimination, or just attempting to
           keep the playing field equal?
        \_ If society maintains an unfair playing field by not providing
           funding towards lower income communities so we get a perminant
           lower class since they have no opportunity for education and
           thus no chance at a decently paying job, where would you try
           and create equal footing for all? Give more money to schools
           and social programs, have hiring preferences for unqualified
           individuals or build prisions?
        \_ Such companies can be sued (likely successfully) for discrimination.
        \_ Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the whacky left.
           It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich white people feel
           better about themselves at the expense of others.  It also keeps
           the blacks from rioting too often.
        \_ do you believe in AA based on income? or childhood
           living conditions?
           \_ I thought AA was a great thing. It helped me get over my
              alcholism. There should be an anonymous club for every other
              controlled substance.
           \_ Only merit should differentiate people.
             \_ how come white people with less merit before AA got the jobs?
                \_ though I commiserate with the sentiment, I think this point
                   is, at best, specious without some kind of justification.
                   \_ I don't see any 'sentiment' here, just a racist remark.
                      \_ If you see a racist remark, then you see a sentiment.
                         Learn the language before you try to split hairs.
                      \_ I'm just saying that it's hard to call it an
                         egalitarian society if the system is in any way
                         biased against a significant portion of the
                         \_ Of course it is.  I am more biased against blacks
                         than whites because blacks robbed me and beat me up
                         a lot more often than whites.  I am merely learning
                         from data.  Would you rather I _wasn't_ biased against
                         them?  And don't give me this 'they are products of
                         an unfavorable environment' shit.  People have free
           \_ Your views on war are somewhat naive.  The idea in war is
              to destroy your opponents will and ability to fight by any means
              necessary.  If a high body count lands you this goal, great.
              Realistically, though, a high body count is very unlikely to
              be sufficient.  Look at Vietnam: the US killed something like
              10 times as many people as it sustained in casualties.  But
              the NVA were still willing to fight, long after American
              determination petered out due to POLITICAL and SOCIAL pressures.
           \_ [vietnam crap deleted]  oops.  sorry.
                         will.  They are not products of their environment.
                         Some just choose to be nasty.
                         \_ Yer walking home in the middle of the night and
                            you see a group of
                            (1) young black men in dark puffy jackets
                            \_ actually, you shouldn't feel ashamed about this
                             stereotype.  I was in a hurry to see my
                            friend one saturday evening and pay him back the
                            money i owed him ($40).  I passed a bunch of
                            young black men in dark puffy jackets,  although my
                            first instinct was to hang back and let them
                            walk ahead.  Anyhow, I pass them, I hear a bunch
                                           respect.  I made up my mind about
                                           such people on a case by case basis.
                                           But if forced to generalized about
                            of snickers behind me, didn't pay attention to it.
                            Anyhow...I get to the darkness of the bridge
                            at Moffitt Library, and suddenly hear rapid
                            footsteps behind me and I realize I am totally
                            fucked.  Before I have a chance to turn around
                            these same fuckers that I passed, one of them
                            puts an armlock around my neck and demands
                            my money.  and you know the rest...

                            what makes me angry is that they laughed when
                            they left, and i had to deal with a sore neck
                            from getting choked really hard and the
                            shitty task of canceling all my credit cards.
                            and of course the feeling of being violated..
                            i was already in a pissed off mood.  and
                            this happened at 10:30 p.m., northside...
                            be especially careful during summer folks,
                            and pay attention to those stereotypes, they're
                            not entirely a bad thing....

                            (2) young, bald white men in torn leather jackets
                                and spiky hair
                                \_ How can you be bald and have spiky hair
                                   at the same time?  Sounds like a good
                                   depiction of Cafe Berlin.
                            (3) computer geeks

                            I think it's safe to say that most white people
                            fear 1 > 2, and most black people fear 2 > 1.
                            I think the poster above is white.
                         \_ That's an extremely ego-centric and short sighted
                            view point that sounds much too focused on self-pity
                            to be real.  Are you trolling?
                            \_ I am not trolling.  I care about myself more
                               than about people who beat me up.  I am sorry
                               if this is perceived as ego-centric.
                               -- original poster
                               \_ *sigh*  Ever heard of objectivity?  It's
                                  kind of useful when devising laws that apply
                                  to _everyone_ and not just your victimized
                                  little self.
                                  \_ I thought it was blacks who were bitching
                                  about being 'victimized.'  I am not bitching
                                  I am just telling you why _I_ personally
                                  discriminate against blacks.
                                     \_ Two wrongs don't make a right? *shrug*
                                        I still think I'm being trolled, but
                                        whatever.  You might want to learn
                                        how to format your motd posts
                                        correctly, though.
                                        \_ It really isn't a troll. I have
                                           worked with intelligent, successful
                                           black people, whom I admire and
                                           respect.  I have made up my mind
                                           about such people on a case by case
                                           But if forced to generalize about
                                           blacks as a whole, my view will be
                                           negative, based on my past
                                           experiences with blacks as a whole.
                                           \_ You have experience with blacks as
                                              a whole?  Wow.  How much time did
                                              it take to meet all of them.  Or
                                              did you mean that you had
                                              experience with a statistically
                                              significant random subset of
                                              \_ I generalize data that I have.
                                                 If there is more data, I will
                                                 change my opinion, if the data
                                                 tells me to.  If you don't
                                                 like my opinion argue with my
                            \_ Actually, it sounds more real than troll to me.
                               It has a thread of logic.
                         \_ Were they right-handed or left-handed?  Surely
                            you're more biased against righties or lefties as a
                            result, right?
                            \_ The aforementioned acts were committed by blacks
                            far more often than is warranted by the relative
                            percentage of blacks in the general population.
                    \_ actually, it's historically backed.
                       \_ What is historically backed?  This 'sentiment' is not
                          even semantically valid.  Less merit than who?
                \_ Less merit than who?
                  \_ what about white only bathrooms?
                     \_ What about green-only trolls?
        \_ <SARCASM>
           It's not right to kill people, but in war the idea is to kill
           as many people as possible.  What do other people thing?  Am
           I missing something or does society have contradictory mores?
           </SARCASM> (Markup was necessary to reduce further confusion.)
           \_ [vietnam crap deleted]  Oops.  Missed the sarcasm.  Sorry.
        \_ Short answer:  It's not federally-defined "discrimination" if
           it's affirmative action.  The word when used in HR policy has
           the federal meaning.
            \_ i.e. "Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the
                whacky left. It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich
                white people feel better about themselves at the expense
                of others.  It also keeps the blacks from rioting too
                \_ Notice that short answer was more fact than opinion based.
                   \_ Notice that the short answer obsequiously (or
                      perhaps conspiratorially) accepts that the government
                      can redefine english words in whatever way happens
                      to fit thier political agenda or best obscures
                      (contradicts) reality despite all/any reason.
                      \_ ^redefine^add a legal definition to
                         Please reflect on the relative benefit of AA in
                         the 1960s and whether AA is a successful policy
                         today, in 50 words or less.
                          \_ The benefit (or lack) of AA is irrelevant to
                             *my* criticism of the perversion of the
                             language.  What is so damn hard about
                             actually saying/writing what is meant?  That
                             society has a "legal definition" of a word
                             that is actually contradictory to the
                             original definition is an obvious sign of
                             intellectual/legal dishonosty and/or sloth.
                             \_ I agree.  This is the point I was addressing
                                when I started the thread.  Whether or not
                                AA is good is independant of the fact that
                                Equal Opportunity statements are contradictory
                                to AA.  Does anyone have a response to this
                                abuse of language issue?  I'm not trolling.
                                It's just that the AA policy and the
                                Equal Opprutnity statements which every
                                organization makes seem blatantly
                                contradictory.  When something that seems
                                so obviously wrong is accepted without
                                question it makes me wonder if I'm missing
                                an important point.  Therefore, I would like
                                to see a response or URL making the case
                                for the other side of the issue.  Thanks.
                             \_ Please reflect on why it's okay for black
                                people to make jokes about black people
                                and white people, but not okay for white
                                people to joke about black people, in
                                50 words or less.
1999/9/9-10 [Reference/RealEstate, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:16489 Activity:low
9/9     That lightning storm was cool.
        \_ tstorm caused by 9-9-99 problem. read about it at
        \_ Make sure to watch again the next time I do yer mom.
           \_ You couldn't handle my mom, little boy.
           \_ my mom neither.  She's evil.
        \_ Yeah, especially if you lost power or had your house burn down.
           \_ Yeah, and steak knives are cool until *A RAVING MANIAC KILLS
              Did you have your house burn down?  Find some fucking joy.
                \_ Yes, I did.  Thanks for asking.
1999/3/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15644 Activity:insanely high
3/24    I take it U.S. Russian relationships aren't going to well right now.
        \_ Hey, we had to test those 2 Billion dollar bombers somewhere.
        \_ Doesn't matter. They complain, we withold the food/food aid, they
           shut up.
                \_ and then lob a few nukes to prove they're still important.
        \_ First Iraq, now Yugoslavia.  Maintaining world order, all right!
           But who's going to stop us if someday we start bombing other
           countries for a bad cause?
           \_ someday start? why are we bombing yugoslavia again?
              \_ I thought we're stopping the Serbs from killing Albanians. No?
                 \_ exactly.  there's a pretty systematic killing machine
                    there right now, killing by ethnicity.  for once i
                    am pleased to see that we are doing something about it.
                        \_ When we do something about it, you can be pleased.
                           Air strikes have never changed any government's
                           policy about anything.  Hello?  Iraq?  7+ years?
              \_ Help the Albanian terrorists kill Serbs is more like it.
                \_ Now, now... both sides are in the wrong.  Don't play
                   favorites with history.
           \_ I thought Clinton only bombs other nations when his own ass
              is in trouble and he needs to divert attention.
              \_ Must be that Hillary was going to file for divorce so he
                 had to bomb someone and start a world war to distract the
                 press and public.
              \_ Didn't you see the X-files? Saddam was some schmo they
                 found in Iowa that waves his magic wand whenever they
                 want to distract the public's mind.
              \_ so whys he in trouble now?
                 \_ See? Its working. We dont know why he is in trouble.
                \_ Clinton IS in trouble over China.  That's why we bomb.
                   \_ Sign your name below if you are spying for China
                      \_ me! me!
                      \_ Me too!  -Chinese spy allowed to hire other Chinese
                         spies as my assistants on top secret nuclear projects.
1999/3/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15521 Activity:very high
3/2     After months of denying it, US government finally has
        been exposed that she has been using UN as a disguise
        of her spying operations in Iraq.  Wouldn't it be funny
        that it turns out Iraq has been telling the truth all along
        and US has been lying.
        \_ Separate the posts with a blank line, twink.
        \_ double-twink. Of COURSE they were. Any intelligent person
           would figure they were. But leaking this is literally
           "a breach of national security". Someone may deserve
           to get executed for treason on this one. Someone employed
           by a newspaper. The US agent(s) may still be in the area.
        \_ Uhm, yeah, so what?  The US was spying on Iraq?  BFD.  I sure
           *hope* the US was spying on Iraq.  It would be totally stupid
           to do otherwise.  You had a point?
           \_ I absolutely agree.  There is only enough room for 1
              aggressive country with weapons of mass destruction on
                \_ Take your commie leftist multi-polar one-world pro-UN
                   bullshit elsewhere.  This is America and I'm an American
                   and fuck all you anti-American, pro-foreigner wimps.  Go
                   have some pot stickers and vodka and think back longingly
                   to the way the world would have been if either communist
                   or fascist dictators had taken over the world.  Without
                   a strong America, you'd be goose stepping on your way to
                   Brainwashing 100a if you were even alive.  More likely,
                   you'd be dead or in a camp or in the army depending on
                   your GoodThink and genetic structure.  Asshole.
                   \_ Attention: the gift store is all out of Bort license
                      plates. I repeat, we are all out of Bort licesnse plates.
                 \_ All hail the Lincoln Brigade!
        \_ Buy a bumper sticker and chill out, dude.  -John
1998/12/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15127 Activity:very high
12/18   Why can't the media be consistant about when Ramadan
        starts.  It starts when the young crescent moon is sighted.
        This will be on Sunday night in Iraq, yet even CNN has
        claimed, or quoted others as saying, that Ramadan started
        Friday night and that it starts on Saturday night.  Friday
        night in Iraq, it wasn't even new moon yet, and the crescent
        moon can't usually be seen until a day or 2 after it is new.
        \_ wanna see my moon?
        \_ Muslims not welcomed at CSUA. Fuck off
           \_ you racist. get the hell out of berkeley.
                \_ Don't be stupid.  Berkeley is the most racist place I've
                   ever been.  Orange County was less racist and they were
                   far less hypocritical about it as well.
1998/12/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:15121 Activity:insanely high
12/17   Muslims condem the US strike and are boycotting Prince of Egypt!
                \_ it's 'condemn' you twink.-!tom
                        \_ He means a con-modulator/de-modulator.
                   \_ No, it's "condom".
                   \_ unless you're talking about the merger between
                      Compaq and Tandem, in which case it's either
                      "comdem" or "tampaq"...
                        \_ no, it's just "Compaq"
                           -- bitter tandem employee
                          \_ why bitter, at least your stock is worth $ now
                             -- oj, way ex-tandem
                             \_ if only they gave me stocks.
        Oh no! What are we going to do?
        \_ Attack the Muslims!
           \_ American Muslims strongly condemn US bombings of Iraq, and
remind President Clinton, and all those who support his action, that
Iraq is NOT a democracy and that Saddam Hussein's policies DO NOT
reflect the will of the Iraqi people. Bombing innocent Iraqi civilians
& their property, therefore, is unequivocally immoral and prohibited
by international law, as it is a serious violation of universal
principles of human rights. (Bombing Iraqi facilities thought to
contain weapons of mass destruction are in most cases located in
highly populated centers).

The timing of the bombing also raises serious questions about how
credible IS the Iraq threat to US interests? It is important to
remember that when the Lewinsky affair first became public, that
President Clinton attempted to distract the nation's attention by
threatening to attack Iraq. When the Starr report was first released,
Clinton attacked the sovereign nations of Sudan and Afghanistan.
And, now on the eve of what would have been congressional debate on
his possible impeachment, Clinton is bombing Iraq.

Bombing Iraq will only kill innocent civilians and worsen Iraqis
desperate situation following seven years of sanctions. The
sanctions have resulted in more than a million deaths, of which
750,000 were children below the age of five.  Access the International
Action Center (IAC) website on the effects of UN sanctions on Iraq
<DEAD>/www.iacenter.org<DEAD> >

Bombing Iraq will only bolster Saddam's position
with the Iraqi people as protector of his country's sovereignty
against the US, and further jeopardize US relations with the people
and governments of the Middle East, which work against US interests
in the region.

I pray for the end of the bombings, for the besieged people of Iraq,
for the relatives of the dead and injured, and for the welfare of the
Iraqi people who have suffered long enough in the hands of Saddam
Hussein, and now, by direct US actions.

        \_ What does "Prince of Egypt" have to do with bombing Iraq or Muslims?
                \_ Possibly because he supports blowing the shit out of
                Iraq, and he is muslim?
                        \_ Moron.  "Prince of Egypt" is the new animated movie
                           about Moses.
   \_ The oil protected in the Gulf war is equivalent to the excess
    oil needed to keep fuel-inefficient SUV's operating in the U.S.
                STOP DRIVING!
1998/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14873 Activity:nil
11/1    Microsoft fears the penguin.  http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
        \_ "watch out for the penguins"
1998/11/1-3 [Health, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14864 Activity:low
10/31   Headline news: http://www.cnn.com
        "Hello, UN Weapon Inspectors. We need to hide our weapons of mass
        distruction again. Please come back later when we are done. Thanks."

Happy Pagan Satan Worship!
        \_ Ignorant tweak.  Satan is a Christian concept.  Halloween is a
           Pagan concept.  Dumb shit Christians jammed Satan into the
           historical Pagan concepts.  Pagans don't worship Satan.  I'd
           say you should stay off the MOTD if you're going to be such an
           idiot, but if everyone followed that advice, there'd be nothing
           but lame job offerings.
           \_ Case in point: Halloween is not remotely pagan.  November 1st
              is called 'All Saints Day' or 'Hallowed Day' and the eve of
              the celebration 'Hallowed Eve' which mutated to 'Halloween'
              A Christian concept through and through, for a change.
           \_ Yep. 'Pagan' is a lame Christian word which tried to mean 'not
              Christian' but eventually came to mean, 'a religion which is
              not one of the big 5', so since Satanism is a Christian
              sect (admitted a perverse one), a Satanic is not a Pagan.
1998/10/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14751 Activity:high
10/7    Can you name all the Muslim countries on earth that is not at war
        with other countries?
        \_ Idiots!  All of you.  There answer is, there aren't any.
        \_ Racist pig.  Can you name all the white male dominated western
           countries that are not at war with other countries?
              Muslim hot-headed hypocrite bigots will rule the world!!!
                \_ Whitey will pay
                   \_ Never! Whitey will oppress forever! Whitey will beat
                      down the minority women with his oppressive white
                      male giant scaly penis of DOOM. White power! WHITE
                      POWER! -(fucker)
        \_ Try this: name all Judaeo-Christian countries that have engaged
           in military actions in the past 5 years, and then do the same for
           country of muslim, buddist, and atheist dispositions.
                \_ That's "secular", not atheist.  There's a difference.
                   \_ Read carefully.  I said disposition, not state religion.
                      US is disposed to Judae-Chiristianity.
                        \_ Ok then, name a country with an "atheist
                           disposition".  Are there any that exist that are
                           bigger than my living room?
                           \_ One can argue that China is a little bigger
                              than your living room, and the government has
                              a clear atheist disposition.  It is unfortunate
                              that the most powerful avowed atheists in the
                              world are totalitarians, just like the most
                              powerful theists used to be.  It provides some
                              ammunition for condemning atheism, though we
                              might retort with the Inquisition, just for
                              starters.  But power corrupts the theist and
                              atheist alike.  -- schoen
                                \_ One word for you, "Tibet".
                                \_ Am I the only one who wants to make little
                                   "nuke" stickers to put over the "free" part
                                   of those obnoxious free tibet bumper
                                \_ Actually, if you had lived in mainland
                                china for an extended period of time (I
                                had for 17 years), you will find life to
                                be more just and fair than, say, the US
                                30 years ago, and it is catching up fast.  As
                                for Tibet, if you are a Tibetan, you have
                                to be a Tibetan Buddhist, period.  But then
                                China has millsions of Muslims and Christians,
                                not to mention many more "real" buddhists and
                                Taoists.  This, however, does not change the
                                China's disposition as atheist.  Similarly,
                                the existence of atheists in US does not change
                                its desposition from being religious.
                                BTW, over the summer I visited regions in the
                                greater Tibet within China, (Tibetan activists
                                claim about 1/4 of China and large area in
                                south Asia as their territory) and found
                                Tibetans life to be much much better than
                                native americans in the US.
                                \_ I did not mean to say anything about the
                                   US v. China, or about Tibet.  I was just
                                   complaining that the Chinese atheists are
                                   also totalitarians, which they are.  Some
                                   American theist political types are also
                                   fairly totalitarian, and plenty of people
                                   can attest to how little I like the US
                                   government.  As an individualist, I may
                                   have different standards of "just and fair"
                                   than other people.  On power corrupting
                                   businesses, see ~schoen/power.txt. -- schoen
                                     \_ I'm flattered that you took the
                                        time to type up such a long document
                                        in an attempt to convince me of
                                        something that i can not be
                                        convinced of -- that Government
                                        (as opposed to a particular
                                        government) is intrinsically
                                        "immoral", as you say.
                                        \_ You're welcome, and I deny that
                                           you "can not be convinced of"
                                           that.  Someone deleted the "power
                                           corrupts businesses" comment, and
                                           that's an attempt at the response
                                           I would have made, were it not
                                           too long for the motd.  Note that
                                           this particular document isn't
                                           really an attempt to persuade you
                                           to be anti-statist, only to be
                                           pro-capitalist.  -- schoen
           of starvation from the u.s. sanctions?  albright claims it is
           worth it.  today is International Hunger Day.
        \_ Population control: if Family Planning won't do it, then let the
           military take a swipe at it.
                \_ Can you say Cambodia.
                \_ They've been doing it just fine for thousands of years.
                   The mistake was not letting them take it far enough.
                \_ Mother Nature's been doing a decent job as of late. Let's
                   give her a coupla years before we start nuking everyone.
                \_ Think of the alternative. 300 million more mouths to feed.
                   That's a *huge* deal. Not everyone can wave their magic
                   wand and conjure up food, land, etc. resources just like
                   that. China would have been a serious hellhole if they
                   weren't practicing coercive population control measures.
                   Human rights, shmuman rights. I'm an Amnesty International
                   member, so yeah, I guess I do care about that, but when
                   it comes down to it, China's actually being *responsible*
                   by trying to limit their growth. Can you imagine doing
                   anything like that in a US context? If Congress or the
                   President were to consider making a resolution merely
                   encouraging people to have no more than 2 kids, he/they
                   would get shot down in a second. Coercive or not, China's
                   policies have worked, and the world is better off for it.
        \_ Try twisting your head around wildly while thinking of the number
           of the number of countries that continually increase the amount of
           home-grown tomatoes each year.  Then hop-up-and-down on one foot,
           pat your head with your left hand, rub your belly with the right,
           and do your best to name countries that begin with the letter 'W'.
           \_ Waco?
        \_ Malaysia
                \_ They're at odds with Singapore, but it's more of
                   a Malay vs Chinese thing than Islam.
                  \_ They've got their differences with Singapore, but
                     I'd hardly call it a war (see orig. question).
        \_ have you ever considered the children in iraq who are dying
           of starvation from the brutal sanctions?  albright claims
           it is worth it.  today is International Hunger Day.
           \_ Kill em all, let God sort em out! (or is it Allah?)
           \_ I consider them next generation's anti-American terrorists.
              Better to kill them now when it's easy.
              \_ saying that all iraqis are terrorists is like saying that
                 all eecs majors are nerds...oh wait, bad example.
              \_ You're a funny man. 150,000 dead children cracks me up every
                \_ Hey, me too!  Cracks me up every time!
                \_ It's not 150,000 dead children.  It's 575,000
                   dead children.
                   \_ It's not 575,000 dead children.  It's 3,575,000
                      dead children.
                        \_ That's all?  3.5m terrorists dead, how many to go?
                           \_ Fuck you.
                              \_ are you cute?
                        \_ Better 3.5M of them than 1 of us.
                          \_ I'd trade our serial killers for their terrorists
                             at a 1:3.5m ratio.
        \_ People suck -- Nuke the entire planet, and give the cockroaches
           a chance.
1998/3/12-13 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13795 Activity:high
03/12   In unrelated news, the renegade gang known only as the MOTD Nukers
        were rounded up and killed in a mass execution by the Thought Police,
        who were disgusted by their tactics and extreme stupidity.  "I mean,
        I thought WE were bad." said Mike Moodswing, Vice President in
        Charge of Policy, Thought Police Badge #E37R32
        \_ This any relation to the ongoing GoZ/ZOG war?
1998/2/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13729 Activity:kinda low
2/23    contract work at lbl.  General coding on Linux/Sparc SMP.  if
        you're interested, contact jon@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU.
        \_ Pathetic, stupid, whining by non-citizen-foreign-fuck who is lucky
        to be allowed to come within 200 miles of the coast of this great
        nation, much less be allowed to live in it has been deleted because
        it turns my patriotic stomach.  You sniveling stupid fuck, GO HOME!
        How dare you have the nerve to bitch about *anything* in this country?
        Who the fuck do you think you are?  You have no rights.  If our fine
        government decided to stick your foreign spying ass into prison with
        out due process or just cause for the rest of your stinking, worthless
        miserable, whining life, I couldn't be happier.  Next you'll be crying
        that we're a bunch of racists for not letting you vote or run for
        political office.  Well, fuck you, go home foreign idiot fuck, you're
        not welcome here.
                              - descendant of a non-citizen foreign fuck
        \_ Tell me that you have been sacarstic about those who talked like you
           do. That's the only way I could thought of to give you credit.

        \_ Gee, I thought people would only have reason to hate the US because
           of stuff like unilateral invasions of Iraq, never mind xenophobic
           ranting.  We're starting to sound more and more like the countries
           we're taught to hate...
        \_ Actually, just about every country out there restricts the
           ability of foreign nationals to come in and work.  Nevermind when
           it involves national labs.  Complaining about it seems pretty
           fucking weak to me, too.  -jor
           \_ I don't fear foreigners.  I hate them.  There's a big
              difference.  You're right, we should completely open our borders
              like, uhm, uh, NO OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET!  DUH!  They let
              _you_ vote?  As far as Iraq goes, when you're on BART and take
              in a whiff of Iraqi sponsored anthrax, let us all know what
              it feels like during your last three agonizing days of life.
              I don't know where you grew up but no one "taught" me to hate
              any countries.  In fact, I don't "hate" any countries.  I don't
              like whining stupid foreign fucks coming here and bitching that
              they don't have the rights that real citizens do.  Don't like
              it?  TOUGH SHIT!  Go back to the stinking third world pit you
              came from and compare that with your lifestyle here.  You've
              spent too much time eating potstickers, hanging out with BH.

                          - descendant of a non-citizen foreign fuck

              \_  While I agree that many jobs should be off limits to
                  foreigners, your frenzied response and hatred of
                  third world foreigners suggest to me that you are
                  someone who should be sent back to WWII era Imperial
                  Japanese Army to be slapped around by your lieutenants.
                  No, you do not qualify for the Wermacht.
1998/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13567 Activity:high
1/26    http://www.lindatripp.com
        \_ The king of Persia has hundreds of women around him. The prince
           of India has a very nice harem. The emperor of China has more
                                                \_ "has"? china hasn't had
                                                   an emperor for a long
                                                   time. --aaron
           women than the number of students in Berkeley. And I'm sure Sadam
           has a very nice private chamber too. What's wrong with the
           president of the greatest power in the world sleeping with a
           couple of interns?
           \_ they are ugly.  that's the problem.  thank you for your time.
        \_ The countries you named are all fucked up.  Thank God (or whoever)
           this country isn't yet that fucked up.
                \_ I think Bill should do as he pleases (Clinton and Gates)
                        \_ I agree, just not while representing my country to
                           the world as my President and leader.  Gates is
                           welcome to do whatever he pleases within the law.
                           Clinton must adhere to a higher standard while in
                                \_ but king, prince, emperor & sadam represent
                                    their countries and still do c00l things
                                   that most men dream of doing
                                        \__Go live in China or Iraq if you love
                                        their systems so much.
                                        \_ Yup and their countries are all
                                           *seriously* fucked up, as are their
                                           leaders.  Being a real leader isn't
                                           about having a harem.  Don't fuck
                                           over my country so you can wave
                                           your penis around, Mr. President.
                                           You want cheap whorish sex, go hire
                                           some prostitutes.  Not on my time,
                                           or my dime, Bill.
1998/1/22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:13543 Activity:high
1/21    US sponsors genocide of Cuba!
        \_ Sad but true.  What had Cuba done to warrant an embargo even
           worse than one given to Iraq?  So it has a communist regime,
           is that a crime?  What is this BS from US government that
           the embargo is meant to promote freedom of speech and crap
           like that?  What about freedom to live?
           \_ the embargo is the legacy of influential lobbyists
              funded by people who lost property when castro
              made cuba a communist state and they are not going
              to go away anytime soon, they are patient and
              are just waiting for castro to pass on.
        \_ AMERICA.  LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, BUDDY. - danh
          \_ I think the embargo of Cuba is stupid and does no
             good, but the US is the only major nation that enforces
             the sanctions. They can get whatever they want from Canada,
             France or any of the other 200 countries that do not
             have restrictions on trade with Cuba. Any genocide
             is a result of Castro and the Communist government,
             not of the US embargo. this is unlike the sanctions
             against Iraq, which were supported by the West for a long
             time. This is no excuse for hussein's atrocities, but let's
             keep the facts straight. If you think the problems of the
             Cuban people are to be blamed on the US embargo,  then
             you have a serious misunderstanding of politics and economics.
             \_ Wrong.  USA punishes domestic and foreign companies that
                trade with Cuba.
                \_ this is only partially true. As far as I understand it,
                 the helms-Burton act has only been enforced against a
                 a small number of firms. While a lot of people are pissed,
                and justifiably so -H-B act is pretty silly, it has
                made no impact on the trade between cuba and foreign
                nations. the H-B act is an empty threat in the overwhelming
                number of cases. Ie, Jesse Helms is just one guy.
                One cranky Southern guy can't stop world trade.
                Finally, the US cannot punish firsm which do no business
                in Cuba. Another good example of what i am talking about is
                Jordan and Israel. Israel refuses to trade with Jordan,
                until recently. But trade still happens. All the goods
                are routed to Cyprus, a neutral country. as I understand it,
                that is how a lot of US/Cuba trade actually happens.
                Any foreign firm with US ties could set up dummy companies
                with no US ties, which is what happens. Of course, since
                cuba with its present economic system, produces little wealth,
                its probably not to profitable to try to often. The fact
                remains: any country that wanted to trade with Cuba, can.
                Cuba's poverty is not primarily the fault of the US embargo.
                I recommend removing the embargo so that fact will be
                totally clear. - fab@csua
1993/9/10 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:31398 Activity:nil
9/8     The National Performance Review - Vice President Al Gore's report on
        reinventing government is now available in http://sunsite.unc.edu via WWW,
        gopher, ftp and wais. (Use "gopher http://sunsite.unc.edu" to get there)
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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