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| 11/23 |
| 2006/12/19-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45471 Activity:high |
12/19 What do you wish to have for Christmas? Put anything you want, like
Nintendo Wii, World Peace, Death of all SUV drivers, whatever.
\_ I want two hours worth of lap dance from Crazy Horse with this
particular dancer I like.
\_ I want to be special and own a 4200 sq ft McMansion only 60 miles
away from the city just like everyone else. I also want an H2 so
that I don't have to make frequent trips to/from Walmart, and
actually, a pollutionless H2 so those damn hippies don't curse
at me on the road. Lastly I want my freeway to be void of other
drivers and ESPECIALLY hippies so that I don't have to run over
them when I'm in a hurry.
\_ Hybrid Humvee:
http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html
350hp. 0-50mph in 7sec. 18mpg. Climbs 60% grade at 17mph and
fords 5ft of water (think New Orleans). It even has a stealth
mode.
\_ "In addition, the vehicle gets twice the fuel economy at 18 mpg
enabling it to carry a smaller fuel tank, while retaining the
same 300 miles range."
OK, just think about that for a second, and why it's obviously
bullshit unless these things are solely used for stop and go
traffic...by the armed forces... and if they are... who cares
about range? Ugh. Stupidity.
\_ Range is important in reconnaissance missions.
\_ Very much so, but hybridizing a vehicle doesn't increase
its absolute ("highway") mileage. You might gain a
little by using the smaller motor, but that's gonna be
cancelled by the weight of the batteries and electrical
subsystem. This is why the hybrids that actually show
really good numbers also have low resistance tires,
low drag coeff., etc.
\_ What is stopping you?
\_ Maybe he has a wife who has put a tracking beacon on him. Or
maybe he means getting it for free.
\_ G600
\_ That means Google -> 600. Hilarious.
\_ I want soda to work like it did a couple years ago.
\_ make it deux
\_ Nokia 770
\_ Nokia 77
\_ Nokia E70
\_ Bush in front of the ICC for his crimes.
\_ ICC has no spine w/o the U.S.
\_ No one said it had to be a realistic fantasy...
\_ Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, Bremmer, and rest hawkish, pro-war
neocons being throw to Iraq outside the Greenzone. Let them
experience the democracy and better life they've created for
the Iraqi people first hand.
\_ I'm sure they loved it under Saddam
\_ You liberal nutjobs serving a day in the military
\_ at least people don't die at the rate of 100 a day under
Saddam. Physical protection is always more important
than political freedom. If you live in LA slum and worry
about being shot everyday, be able to vote or not is probably
the last thing on your mind.
\_ Give me freedom or give me death! I'll take freedom
over food, shelter, and sex! FREEDOM!!! -American
\_ 9 out of 10 Iraqis say that things were better before the
invasion:
http://www.csua.org/u/hs7
Original source:
link:www.csua.org/u/hs6
The Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies used to
be hired by the American CPA until that body left Iraq, so
they should probably have at least some credibility.
FYI, in over half the Western Countries surveyed by Ipsos,
a plurality thought that Iraq was better off under SH, as well:
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/polls/2006/ap.shtml
\_ You liberal nutjobs serving a day in the military, like Cheney,
and Bolton, and Wolfowitz, and Pearle and Scooter and Rove and
Brooks and Krauthhammer and Delay and Hastert and Lieberman and
Feith.
\_ I walked along Telegraph Ave almost every night for a year and
a half. That's gotta be at least equivalent! - jvarga
\_ Well... I spent three years in the 82nd Airborne. -ausman
\_ hmm... serve under those who dodged the draft... inspiring!
\_ Obviously you were never in the military during the
Clinton years.
\_ obviously Clinton never needed over 130,000 troops in
a hostile territory. what the fuck are you smoking jlee?
\_ I'm glad you can ID me but not ID yourself.
\_ A wife with ample bosom and hot body.
\_ As your genie I grant you your wish.
*POOF*
"Not tonight dear, I have a headache."
\_ http://www.divinebreasts.com/i/pod/pod75.jpg
\_ That is not hot body. Pre-reduction Christina Ricci body was
hot body. (Her face is another matter.)
\_ How about http://85.17.40.9:88/22a/full/116/1168550884.jpg ?
\_ Yucks! I want Sakurako-Kaoru-type. |
| 2006/12/19-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45470 Activity:high |
12/19 Zucker's take on the ISG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w77sLtz754 \_ Ah, yes, that Neville Chamberlain of our time, James Baker. I'm sorry, wtf are you talking about? \_ Sorry, no one is buying your BS anymore. \_ What BS? I pointed to a video on youtube. \_ The BS that America is strong and can make other people listen to us. Sorry neocons, the real world doesn't work that way. People hate America and you're not going to make them do what you want them to do just because you think you have the world's greatest military power. Military power comes and goes but resentments live on forever. \_ Who hates America? Do you? The Arabs do because it serves their political leaders for them to do so. I bet China prefers a bit of healthy dislike in its people too given the totalitarianism. The fact is their countries are in a state of shittitude because of their own fucked governments (cf. Iran). \_ The Iranians might hate us because we overthrew their democratically elected government and replaced it with a totalitarian one. Just a thought. Why do the Iraqis hate us? Do you really have to ask that? that? Oh, and just a little geography lesson: Iranians are not Arabs. Thought you might like to know. \_ I didn't say they were. If you asked the average Iranian I bet you will not hear "because they replaced our democratic government". \_ this may shock you, but Chinese government is more popular across the globe than American one. \_ Really? When did we vote on that? I haven't missed a vote on anything since I was old enough to vote. \_ anti-American senitment is very stron across the globe during the time when China is forgiving debt and cut checks to Africian oil rich nations with *NO STRING ATTACHED*. You should also dig out old newspaper on how popular Hu Jing-Tao was during his Latin-America tour. As for Middle East, do you have any idea what kind of government would we have today across the Arab nation if we allow them to *VOTE* for their leader? (hint, Hamas). \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8324290 But it wasn't mentioned in MM's blog, so you might have missed it... \_ A Pew poll? With no numbers? Ok, whatever. I'm sure you also believe Iraq was a land of chocolate rivers with candied banks under Hussein. And what exactly would be the surprise if a bunch of socialists prefered a communist country to a democratic capitalist one anyway? \_ I am sure you can google for the source if you really want to see the numbers. I am also sure you won't bother to, since it upsets your fantasy about how the world is. world is. You do know that the vast majority of Iraqis think the country is worse off now than it was under SH, right? \_ No I won't do your work for you. If you have something to say, go find a real source for it and post it. No one here has the time to google every half- assed zero-information link posted to the motd by some crank who believes in chocolate rivers. Then you make another unsubstantiated claim that I'm supposed to google, too? How about you tell me what my fantasy about the world is since the only thing I've said so far is your link is garbage. I see you also ignored the underlying issue with a poll "of the world" in that "the world" is all about predisposed bias and the odds of getting a "fair" poll about what "the world" thinks are about zero. Just curious, do you see yourself as a "Citizen of the World"? \_ Tactic 1: ad hominem Tactic 2: attack the source Tactic 3 (will occur as soon as I post a link): claim polls are meaningless. -tom \_ Facts are such bitter stubborn things. http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=247 \_ They don't like Bush. It doesn't translate to a general hatred of America as you imply. At least half our population doesn't like Bush (approval ratings etc). \_ I predict it will take a long time, at least a decade or two, to undo the damage the Bush and his crowd has done to US opinion worldwide. \_ I believe it's customary to include either "nutjob" or "He's right, you know" with links like this. Omission thereof tends to imply support. --!pp \_ http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm Support for the warmonger faction is down to 28%. |
| 2006/12/1-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45405 Activity:nil |
12/1 http://www.cagle.com/news/BushCivilWar/main.asp Cartoons on Iraq's [impending] Civil War \_ http://www.cagle.com/news/BushCivilWar/images/plante.jpg \_ http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-11-26-1.html \_ "For instance, in Connecticut, the voters rejected the extremist wing of the Democratic Party (otherwise known as "The Democratic Party") by reelecting Joseph Lieberman, the most notable (but not the only) Democrat who has the brains to understand that the War on Terror is vital to our national security." In other words, if you've OSC's rants before, there's nothing new here. I take that back: there's even more venom and invective. |
| 2006/12/1-8 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45403 Activity:low |
12/1 How much does polonium cost? I'm curious because I'm baffled as to
why we didn't simply put polonium into Saddam Hussein (and his
sons) food chain. It would have been faster and cheaper.
\_ http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/weekinreview/03broad.html
"$22.50 plus tax"
\_ wouldn't his sons have just taken over
\_ If he was that easy to poison, bon't you think we would've?
We can't even poison Castro. It's not like you have to use
polonium, cynide works fine. |
| 2006/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45327 Activity:high |
11/11 Rummy, Gonzales and Tenant might be sued for "war crimes" in
Germany:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
\_ How can an American be sued in another country?
\_ The same way someone can be tried in the US for crimes
they committed while outside the country (Noriega.) Some
countries have weird laws--I think Belgium has or had one
of these "good luck with enforcing it" statutes that allowed
their prosecuters to go after anyone for some kinds of crimes
against humanity committed anywhere else. -John
\_ Germany claims to have "Universal Jurisdiction" over war
crimes. If found guilty, one cannot travel to Germany
w/o the potential of being arrested on the basis of that
conviction. The same may be true of countries that have
an extradition agreement w/ Germany wrt this type of
crime. Mostly this is symbolic.
<rant>A conviction will make the Euro-peons feel good
about themselves and will take their minds of the fact
that the moors are in the process of recovering what
\- moops
they lost and taking more ground.</rant>
\_<snore> |
| 2006/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45308 Activity:nil |
11/9 http://preview.tinyurl.com/w3hvt (signonsandiego.com) "The vote shows the Iraqi and American people are of one mind about withdrawing U.S. troops," said Falah Hassan Shanshal, who leads the parliamentary bloc of radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. "We hope the Democrats don't forget their campaign promises. If they don't, we will deal with them in a brotherly way once the last American soldier pulls out from Iraq," he said. \_ This is one of the guys who should have been killed and his group wiped out years ago. The fact that he's still around to comment on the American election highlights the failures in Iraq that put his potential "brothers" in power in the first place. \_ well, We whiped out Saddam and his Baathist party, that didn't work out too well, no? May be you should think outside of "get rid of those we don't like" box. |
| 2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45230 Activity:nil |
11/7 57 Iraqi police officers charged with torture
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq |
| 11/23 |
| 2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45225 Activity:nil |
11/7 Chicago man sets himself on fire in protest of You Know What:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/123692,CST-NWS-bodyfire04.article
his self written obituary:
http://www.savagesound.com/gallery100.htm
his 'mission statement':
http://www.savagesound.com/gallery99.htm |
| 2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45211 Activity:kinda low |
11/7 This question is mostly for the supporter of the war and those
who oppose quick withdraw from Iraq.
One option which no one talked about is mobilizing entire freaking
nation for Iraq. Draft until we got 2.5 million pairs of boots,
ration supplies if absoultely nessarily, and blanket Iraq with an army
of 2.5-3million strong, pacify the country, and leave.
What is wrong with THAT idea? Do you guys really think we can
"win" this war with the current troop level in Iraq? at 8 billion
a month, such idea is even economically sound!
\_ The problem with such a tactic against a guerilla force is they will
melt away into the civilian populace, only to resurface when the
massive force goes away.
\_ "pacify"ing the country
== Saddam kills you if you piss him off
|| Shiites kill you if you piss them off
!= Americans there temporarily (same thing above guy said),
unless it serves bullet point 2
\_ 2.5 - 3 million non-radical Sunni/Shiite loyalists? Aaaaanyway.
We'll just arm both sides.. I'm sure they'll only use their training
and weapons to Keep the Peace.
We'll just arm both sides.. I'm sure they'll only use their
training and weapons to Keep the Peace.
\_ I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit; it's the only way
to be sure. -John
\_ done that in Japan, it worked well. I wonder why don't we do
that again.
\_ There are many things wrong with that idea: politics, economics,
logistics, military structure. And oh yeah, it wouldn't work
anyway. I don't have to be a war supporter or oppose retreat to
see that a draft won't work and wouldn't help. How about you
explain how and why this could possibly work?
\_ Naw, the right way to do this is to deport Iraqis to reservations
in New Mexico and replace them with illegal immigrants waiting for
deportation. That, and raise all of the kids in orphanages. Oh,
yeah, and give everyone smallpox blankets. Let's see, have I missed
any really terrible imperialist ideas here?
\_ Er, orphanages are imperialist?
\_ Google: australia lost generation
\_ Edit: Grr, afternoon brainhit: The Stolen Generation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generation
\_ my question of the day is, how come Australia never
charged with Genocide?? Or it is ok if White do this to
non-white and take their land?
\_ Australia has been working pretty hard to deal
with decimating the native population of Australia.
Hey either get grammar training, quit pretending to
\_ Since neither Canda, USA, nor Austrilia was punished for
this, I have been long advocating Chinese to do this to
Tibetian, Mogolians and rest of the minority tribe. :D
be ignorant, or I'll bust out the Im 30HHH and
no bra will hold me postings.
\_ Why USA say china bad when advocate australia
congress iraq no tibet?! you racist white dog
not understand USA no good bad native genocide!!
Do we get more bra postings now? |
| 2006/11/6-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45199 Activity:nil |
11/6 US Army recruiters lie to get people to enlist:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2626032&page=1
\_ This is news how exactly? I was looking for info on ROTC while
applying for college, and made the mistake of asking at a
recruiting station (long since closed, fuckers) about how one goes
about becoming an officer. The shit they put me through and told
me was absolutely amazing. -John
\_ So you didn't join the Waffen-SS after all?
\- i think the news or rather the "new" part is the country
is at war now. it's one thing to BS about benefits and
such, it seems another to lie to a direct question "will
i end up in iraq". and it is sad we dont consider it
"news" that mlitary recruiters are the same species as
gym salesmen and cell phone vendors. the real or the
"big" issues here is obvious, so i wont belabor it.
\_ It surprises me that you feel there is a difference. The
tactics they use to get people to sign up are very low, and
I can see how someone without much education would fall for
it easiily. I recall the same shit during Iraq #1, but
nobody made as much of a stink over it because not as many
people were dying. They are salesmen, they have a quota to
meet, and the company's in trouble. Quotas just got upped.
I don't differentiate between lying to get people into an
organization whose nature it is that you might get killed,
whether people are actually dying or not. -John
\- well i dont think there is a bright line about what
falls under "buyer (recruit) beware" and something that
crosses the line. but sometimes "you know it when you
see it". for example, if you are buying a house but you
never bother to discover there is a frat house next door,
that's likely your fault. but in another case a friend
of a friend bought a house in los gatos and the sale was
reversed after 6mos because it turned out the house seller
had asked a autobody shop [or some other kind of industrial
operation] not to operate when he was showing the house.
[now if he hadnt colluded but had just picked a time when
the place was closed, maybe that would have passed muster].
there might have been other sleazy dealings too. i didnt
know the exact details but i had relatively little sympathy
for the people in gulf war 1 to bailed on their obligations
after taking advantage of the college and other benefits.
i would hope that given you are dealing with people
probably in the 16-20 range, it is potentially a matter of
life and death ... and certainly a major lifestyle choice,
and it is your govt after all, military recruitment would
be a more sober and serious and solemn process, but we
cerainly no better than that dont we. so we probably
are in 90% agreement ... but i suppose i see this
though the "big issues" [national service, wealth and
opportunity etc] rather than focusing on the sleaziness
of the army's salesmen. in re: the "i dont differentiate"
comment: consider the informed consent: everybody no
matter how dumb or how young who is more conscious than
terry schivo knows there is some chance of getting
killed or hurt in the military ... since it even
happens in training etc. people also know that your
chance of getting hurt/maimed or killed go way up
if you are sent to iraq ... it probably doesnt matter
whether that probability is .5% or .1% ... everyone
knows it is high enough to take notice of. but what
people dont know is what is the probability of their
being sent to iraq/afganistan upon joining the military
now ... is it 5% or 80%? further, they should reasonable
believe that the govt representative will either say
i dont know or not massively lie to them. expecting an
18yr old to "expect" the govt to lie to them doesnt seem
reasonable. although it's starting to be.
\- maybe this is a good example to bring out some of
my thinking: we think of cosmetic surgeons as perhaps
a little sleazy [the beverly hills kind, not the
charity and military ones]. and a patient really is
a customer and should be on the alert to beig pitched,
oversold, upsold etc ... i dont have much sympathy for
a young impressionable girl in for a nose job getting
talked into a lip puffing sugery "while your at it".
but if your real doctor says he hears something
"funny" with your mitral valve and you need to pay
more money to be probed so he can buy a new titaniam
golf device, that is totally beyond the pale since
there really may not be any good way for you to protect
your interests. you are totally in his hands ... that's
why this is supposed to be a relationship of solmn
trust [with threat of malpractice] rather than a
consumer relationship. so the ideal answer isnt
the consumer/patient/recruit should be careful in
both cases but society sould hold the person in the
position of trust to a higher standard ... unfortunately
that ideal doesnt always happen and perhaps caveat
emptor is "min max" strategy.
\_ Personal responsibility aside (if you're signing up
for the army, I'd hope that you are thinking about
what you are doing), there's a pretty major difference
between lying to sell aluminum siding and lying to get
someone to join the national "we can fuck up your life
send you to a place where you have a real possibility
of getting your ass brought home in a box, and all that
on false pretenses" club. I don't care if you're in
a war or not, it's criminal. -John |
| 2006/11/6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45192 Activity:nil |
11/6 Why is Cheney's hunting trip news, and election tampering
and HELLO THE UNITED STATES HAS GIVEN UP ON FUNDING THE
RECONSTRUCTION OF IRAQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELLO !!!!!!!!!!!!
BLING BLING BLING BLING BEEP BEEP BRRRRRRRRRRWAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!
I can't do the car alarm thing properly anyway WTF.
\_ Were you looking for vr00p! vr00p! vr00p!? And why is Iraq
protected by a car alarm?
\_ Hello, Mark Foley brought down by being dirty to a page, not by
general shitbagness. Tom "The Hammer" DeLay brought down by
money fiddling, not by general shitbagness. There's kind of a trend
here. I think the US needs an emperor and a Ministry of Truth to
keep the slobs happy. -John |
| 2006/11/6-8 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45191 Activity:nil |
11/6 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15590729/site/newsweek/from/RS.2 "Saddam and the Republicans" |
| 2006/11/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45184 Activity:low |
11/7 The Press at War: What ever happened to patriotic reporters?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110009203
\_ The country at war: What ever happened to just conflicts?
\_ OP, do you actually believe any of this crap? Do you think
the sectarian thugs who are making our life miserable in
Iraq read the NY Times? Also the writer of this article seems
to think that Iraq would soon be edging out Irvine, CA
in Time's annual Best Places To Live Poll if only newspaper
owners took a firmer hand in reigning in the evil liberal
press. I love the WSJ's news operations but they must really
store their editorial people on a ship far, far away from
other sources of information. - danh
\_ You're confused and miss the point if you think this is about
thugs in Iraq reading American papers. Wars are won by
breaking the will of the enemy to keep fighting. If your own
press breaks the will of your own people then you've lost no
matter what is going on in the actual war zone. Your Irvine
comment is rhetorical noise and ignored.
\_ 'justice' is not an absolute. There is no such thing as a
'just conflict'.
\_ 'Intelligence' is not an absolute, there are just people who
are far from it.
\_ Did you even read the link?
\_ I'm reading it. Who is this guy? He's comparing
the Iraq invasion to WW2, and while he's at it,
blaming the Vietnam loss on leftist protestors.\
Even more powerful than the all powerful leftist
blaming the Vietnam loss on leftist protestors.
Even more powerful than the all powerful leftist
protestors was the several million residents of
Vietnam willing to die to the very last man to
kick the invading force out.
\_ Specifically he said the Tet Offensive was a win for
the US but mischaracterised as a loss and the media
allowed that wrong to stay uncorrected in the
public's view of the war. The TO was a devastating
loss for the north but you never knew it if you only
listened to American media at the time. How is he
wrong on that?
What is your issue with his WW2/Iraq comparison which
is specifically about how reporters reported in each
war?
\_ You don't get it, do you. We can win all
the giant military victories we want, witness
our quick victory over the regular Iraqi
forces in this war. We can win 100 Tet
offensives. You can loudly point out the fact
we won every battle in Vietnam. This is not
how you fight a guerilla insurgency. Those
"hearts and minds" guys really did have the right
idea. By letting Iraq spiral into sectarian
violence with roving guerrilla death squads
on all 3 sides run Iraq, we are doomed to failure,
no matter how many biased Fox or NYTimes
articles are written.
\_ As usual the War Nerd is right on on this one:
http://www.exile.ru/2006-November-03/the_doctrine_of_asymmetrical_war.html
http://preview.tinyurl.com/u6zec (exile.ru)
\_ http://www.exile.ru/2002-April-21/war_nerd.html
He's a data-entry tech in Fresno. He has
some points about the changing nature of
war but he sure as hell doesn't say that
winning hearts and minds is the way to go.
\_ Vietnam was lost in the media right here at
home, not in Vietnam. And 100 Tet Offensives
would have wiped out N.Vietnam about 8 times
over to the last man, woman, and child, but
I'm sure you didn't mean that literally. The
hearts and minds guys have it wrong. No one
tried to win the hearts and minds of anyone
in Germany, Japan, Italy, or any other place
the US or any other war has ever been won.
Wars are won by killing people until they
stop hitting back. Obviously roaming death
squads in Iraq is Bad(tm), but you're not
going to win the hearts and minds of death
squads. They must be killed and that is one
of the many failures on our part: we are
actually trying to win over those people
instead of just killing them.
\_ This isn't WWII anymore. That's not how
war works anymore, especially not in an
occupied country.
\_ Of course it isn't however no one is
going to win the hearts and minds of
the "roving guerilla death squads".
Especially for the largest ones such
as Al Muq Tadr (however its spelled)
which has a sizable force and known
leadership. The reason these guys are
still around is they are part of the
tribal power structure holding up the
current PM. All that tribal garbage
needs to be stepped on and buried or
they will fight a real civil war, not
this pansy thing they're doing now.
We have 130k or so troops there the
last I knew. They patrol? For what?
To be sniper and IED targets? They
should either be out there mopping up
a la Faluja or they should come home
now and just let it fall to crap.
\_ I don't think this works with Shiites.
They LIKE being killed. It just
reaffirms in their minds their martyr
complex. How do you defeat an enemy
that only gets stronger when you kill
them? I really don't know.
\_ I agree that some small percentage of
them are a-ok with the getting killed
thing, but tell me this, if pure force
can't keep them down then how did Saddam
keep the majority population from taking
over 25+ years ago? Why was there no
endless civil war between the Sunni and
Shia?
\_ They really should put Saddam back
in charge. Seriously.
\_ Also the writer lectures at Pepperdine, home of
more and more batshit crazy person Ben Stein. What
happened to him? He didn't seem so crazy in the
movies.
\- did you see the infamous BSTEIN - PKRUGMAN
"i won the john bates clark medal; you are a
game show host" exchange?
\_ Anyone who says "authorization to use force == authorization to do
absolutely anything he 'needs' to" is not worth reading.
\_ Where'd he say that?
\- james q wilson is pretty famous. mayor guiliani probably
got his crime fighting ideas from JQW. it;s called the
"broken window" theory [focus on small crimes to deter a
lawlessness culture] athough i believe there is some
cintroversy about who really came up with the idea ...
as well as controvery about the effectiveness.
he's one of the intellectuals favored by a number of
conservatives but he's not a wacko loser like
victor david hansen.
\_ Uhm ok, I know broken window theory. Where did he say
the bit about auth-to-use-force = auth-to-do-abs-anything? |
| 2006/11/4-5 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45162 Activity:kinda low |
11/03 I overheard this quote from NPR which I thought is amusing:
"'Terror' is a tactic. To say today's war is a war on 'Terror'
is just like saying World War 2 is a war on 'Blitzkrieg.'"
\_ Sounds pretty logical to me.
\_ The US should stick with wars that have a definite
win condition. You can't win a war against a non proper noun. |
| 2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45155 Activity:low |
11/3 http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612 Leading neo-cons assume no blame for ideas, but blame Dubya admin for terrible execution (I can't decide whose pic is worse: Dubya's or Condi's) \_ Annie Leibovitz clearly knows what she's doing. -tom \_ Dubya's picture was taken with a wide-angle lens at close range. Either it was a lousy photog, or the photog did it on purpose. \_ It's Annie Leibovitz. It's on purpose. -tom \_ What Condi's pic? \_ page 3 \_ We know execution was terrible. There is little to dispute on that point. It is just a case of do you believe American power should be used to "right wrongs" around the world or not? Places like Darfur and *many* others can't be rectified by diplomacy so the choice is invade/attack or ignore genocide. Some philosophies say "screw em, not our problem, not worth our blood and treasure", the neocons disagree. If you're ok with the Saddams of the world and more Darfur genocide then you're not a neocon. /shrug \_ Iraq is not Darfur. As bad as Saddam was he wasn't slaughtering millions. \_ Millions aren't dead in Darfur either. Yet. 'Just' a few hundred thousand or so. Saddam was estimated to be killing about 5000 Iraqi's a *month* which was going on for how many years? There is little difference if you're only looking at body count as your measure to take action or not. \_ First, the number is probably being pumped up, just like everything else. Secondly, under *OUR* rule, we got about 100 guys killed EVERY DAY. that is almost 3000 Iraqis a MONTH. According to *YOU* even with the violance today, Iraqis *ARE* better off today than under Saddam. But for some weird reason, every poll conducted by every country has said otherwise. \_ The Neocons arguement has never primarily been humanitarian. They argue that our countries best interests are promoted by spreading democracy and "Western Values." The humanitarian argument is sort of tangential to this. And of course, the number of bodies is an important consideration in deciding if it is worth taking action. \_ I am not sure what this "Western Value" means. I think it really means "western value defined by US government." Frankly, I don't think Neo cons believe in Western Value themselves. This administration is by far most secretive and imperial administaration since Nixon. In terms of human right violations, they are rapidly approaching Eisenhoers and FDR's administarations. |
| 2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:45122 Activity:moderate |
11/02 Americans always say their core value is promote democracy.
Besides recent boycott of Hamas, we got this in Nicaragua:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6423982
This, and US past involvement in Iran, Guatemala, Chili, etc.
Are you guys still dumb enough to think USA really believe in
democracy?
\_ Yes, the USA is all about promoting democracy. Our democracy,
right here in the US. We cannot let any foreign government
of any kind keep us from our God-given right to exploit
foreign resources, products, and labor for the lowest cost.
That is how we promote our democracy.
\_ Actually, yes, that's the way it's been going. We are committed
to the democratic cause that all governments should be of the
(American) people, by the (American) people, for the (American)
people.
\_ Hi chicom!
\_ i am still waiting for you comment on this issue of
"promoting democracy world wide" thing.
\_ Why should I defend a straw man you set up? Are you so
dumb that you actually believe what you wrote?
\_ I look at facts, and don't treat democracy as a religion.
you guys need to look at facts more coldly. The fact
is, American talk about democracy, and they believe in
it too. Just that it is never a first priority. The
actual profit and exploit of resources always trump
democracy. This is why we have no problem overthow
democratically elected government in Iran, Guatemula,
Chili, and now Palestine. And we have no issue supporting
dictators, Monachs, Islamtic extremests world wide to
advance US agenda at the time. That, combine with severe
lack of sense of history tend to create very naive &
myopic policies. Yet, at the same time, American don't
realize they are the aggressors, invading countries,
set up unfair trade policies, and torture people world
wide.
\_ 2 things: 1) any nation that puts a philosophy above
the health of the state at all times is suicidal.
2) the neocons in this country share your belief that
we should always ignore #1. that hasn't worked out
that well.
\_ 1. America ALWAYS waging crusade, putting philosophy
abvoe health of the state. Think "Evil Empire"
and "War on Terror."
2. good try, I didn't know you share the same
believe as Adolf Hitler.
\_ Hamas, ah yes, beacon of democracy in the middle east. Personally,
I prefer Chinese style "charge the family for the bullet"
democracy. None of that messy voting or listening to the peasants.
\_ given the choice of Chinese style government verus American-style
democracy in Iraq, and Bosnia, I take Chinese style government
any day. It seems successful democracy need to go through
a period of genocide. America, Turkey, Bosnia, Iraq.
Democracy is great, but given the choice, I prefer avoid
genocide at any cost.
\_ "at any cost". Yes, safety above all else at all times.
The direct path to slavery. A good call if you want to
live in chains and die at the whim of any passing
government official. In all seriousness, if you really
believe what you said, you're not only in the wrong country,
you're in the wrong culture. No where in the West has a
place for that kind of thinking. And taking a quick look at
the standard of living for free people vs. enslaved people
around the world, you'll find a lot more of the enslaved
trying to get to free countries than the opposite. But
that just makes plenty of room for you in your oppressive
country of choice. That'll be the last choice you make.
\_ No where in the West? my friend, let me kindly remind
you something. This "Western" culture which values
basic rights of men traditionally ONLY apply to WHITEs.
This is the reason why just a couple years after America
declare its independence, it offers troops to *CRUSH*
Haiti's independence from French rule. This is also
the reason why we defeated Nazi's occupation of France,
yet *SUPPORT* French occupation of Algeria and so-called
"indochina."
Do I believe personal freedom? yes. Do I believe these
fredom includes political participations? After I've
seen half dozens of countries/regions either fell
into sectarian violence or rise in ethnic tensions,
I am not sure any more. It is easy for *YOU* to say
Iraqis are better off today than under Saddam's rule.
Try to live in Iraq (outside the green zone) for two weeks
you might get a sense of what I am getting at.
What you don't get is that freedom to participate in
political process is something "nice to have." but it
is by no means a necesscity. Food, shelters,
personal SAFETY all take precedent. Americans who
lives in the comfort of their own country certainly
don't understand this. This is why Americans decided
that consitution, election is more important than security.
And at this rate, American is just going to leave and let
the violence taken its course. The REALLY sad part is
that most Americans STILL DIDN'T learn from this lesson
which already cost hundres of thousands of lives.
\_ Yes, I see the U.S. flag waving everywhere I go. I know the sun
never sets on it. I see how we directly vote for our govern't
just like a republic should. Despite all of this I can easily
see that Communism is such a successful sys, that I don't know why
we don't have it here. Yes, I don't know how or why a bigger
country would try to make itself richer off a poorer country.
I mean that's downright wrong - we should give away our all $
\_ link:csua.org/u/hd8
\_ Hey chicom, here's a more interesting question. In order to be
"pro-democracy" should the US support Hugo Chavez, as the elected
leader of Argentina, or be against him because he is dismantling
the Argentinian Democracy?
\_ "I love *you*, but I *don't* love _you_!" "But! We are the
same in all ways! Logical inconsistency! Brain is frying!
Mordron save us!" Bvvvvvrrrrrrr, click.
\_ Argentina? Hugo Chavez? There are adults speaking here.
\_ he is one of 60% of Americans who don't know where is Mexico
on a world map. give him a break. |
| 2006/11/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45119 Activity:nil |
11/02 I don't get it. Moqtada Al-Sadr kidnaps a U.S. soldier. We surrender
our barricades and abandon him on orders of the Iraqi PM. The
media is largely silent. John Kerry makes a dumb joke - SCANDAL!
JOKEGATE! APOLOGYGATE!
\_ I agree. but didn't the guy marry an iraqi? or he was an
iraqi? or shiite? or sunni? argh so confused. |
| 2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45098 Activity:nil |
11/2 Top US general says Rumsfeld is inspired by God http://csua.org/u/hcw Holy fuck. (literally) \_ we need a new JCS chair, not really for the God comment, but for the praise of Rummy \_ '"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.' I always figured Rummy hears voices in his head. |
| 2006/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast] UID:45088 Activity:nil |
11/02 Just FYI, here's the Heritage Foundation's study about who military
recruits are.
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed112905a.cfm
\_ I like how they're "better educated than the national average"
Given that being a member of the armed forces has standards at all
and being a member of the country doesn't... why is this at all an
interesting result? |
| 2006/10/27-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45016 Activity:nil |
10/27 http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iraq.html Headline: "Iraqi Premier and U.S. Envoy Back Timetable" Body: Iraq "made clear the issues that must be resolved with timelines for them to take positive steps forward." They don't match. \_ STAY THE COURSE. \- http://www.economist.com/printedition/cover_index.cfm |
| 2006/10/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44948 Activity:high |
10/24 War Crimes committed upon illegally held detainees.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1024b1talker1024.html
\_ The real title is "Arpaio starts 2-week mandatory English
classes for inmates". Inmates of a county jail, that is. |
| 2006/10/21-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44899 Activity:low |
10/21 More evidence of Bush Administration War Crimes revealed:
http://www.csua.org/u/h9x (news.yahoo.com)
\_ War Crimes is what the winners do to the losers.
\_ I don't see any evidence of war crimes on that page. Let
me know when your FOIA request turns up the Haliburton
contract for building "showers" in gitmo that includes a
cost savings provision based on the fact they will be
using pows as slave labor.
\_ So the defense of Bush's misdeeds has moved from "he's
better than Saddam" to "he's better than Hitler."
Interesting.
\_ Abuse of Power != War Crime. Maybe he has abused
the power of the Presidency, maybe he hasn't; but
whatever he has done, I just don't see it rising
to the level of a war crime.
to the level of a war crime. I think that calling
the President's actions war crimes serves only to
stifle real debate over administration's handling
of the WOT.
\_ As opposed to saying "Bush is totally better than
Hitler!!!!1", which fosters mature debate? Come on.
No, I'm not OP, and no I have not used the word "war
crime".
\_ You "just don't see it" but others, including the
USSC and Alberto Gonzalez, did. Looks like your
position is the weaker one. There is a law in the US,
called the "War Crimes Act" that forbids grave
breaches of the Geneva Convention. The USSC just
ruled the prisons at Gitmo are covered under
Art 3 of the Geneva Convention. Was the torture
described in the article a "grave breach"? I am not
sure, and I guess you must be some kind of expert
on International Law to be so sure that is not.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734 |
| 2006/10/19-21 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44867 Activity:moderate |
10/19 Guys, I need your help to come up with this "Troll of the day:"
Why today's Iraq is Republican's philisophical utopia?
- democractic
- small central government that governs the least
- right to bear arm (AK47, RPG, and IED)
- emphasis on family value (adultry punishable by death)
- no evolution is being taught in school
- religion is fully interwined with government institution
- full "personal responsibility" for average citizens
anything else that can be added?
\_ flat tax? deregulation? free trade?
\_ Republican doesn't believe in free trade, though.
tarrif on steel, agricultural subsidies, you name them all.
\_ the best trolls are spelled properly. try again.
\_ What about chicom troll?
\_ your sense of humor is worse than my spelling
\_ man, i was hoping i am being funny, sigh.... op
\_ It IS pretty funny, you just need to package it
in a comic or something. Keep up the good work! |
| 2006/10/18-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44863 Activity:high |
10/18 Wow, watch the democratic party implode! Swami's political little
brother sure called that one right.
\_ Huh? -motd political ignorant
\_ ob ^democratic^republican
\_ You're right. The minority party imploded in 94 and never
recovered.
\_ http://www.csua.org/u/h9b
A whopping 16% of Americans approve of the job the Republican
Congress is doing. I think more than that believe that they
have been abducted by space aliens...
\_ and I bet there's a strong correlation between the two groups
\_ They'd have higher poll results if they polled for everything
they did. I'm certain Bush didn't do a poll before getting his
new dog. Pretty crazy of him, huh? Fortunately this is still
a republic and not a democracy.
\_ I don't want the President looking for input on what to name
his dog. I do want the President looking for input on whether
or not to cherry-pick information and invade a country with
no real plan for getting out.
\_ YOU want this and YOU want that but have you ever
considered what the average American wants? Hint:
what they want is different than what YOU want, you
stupid prick. The average American wants the president
to be confident, decisive, religious, faithful, and be
a good family man who keeps his penis in his pants
instead of fucking an intern at the White House. The
average American wanted all of the above in 2000 and
2004, and they got exactly what they asked for.
\_ The average American is a myth. We're a nation of 300
million Venn Diagrams.
\_ I am a man, not a Venn Dia-- er, animal!
\_ You are number six.
\_ And why Average Americans are not happy with Bush now?
\_ If you want to discuss the real world I'm here. If you
want to dailykos on me, then go to Dailykos where you'll
find a zillion people who will rah-rah that sort of noise
instead of quoting every agency in the Western hemisphere
and numerous leaders from your party who believed the same
intel all through the 90s. That dog don't hunt, son.
\_ I don't read dailykos or Mother Jones (or freep or
Fox News). This is the real world. The Pres. wanted to
invade Iraq, so he cherry-picked info to make his case.
Then he took the word of partisan hacks like Chalabi who
told him that the invasion would be over quickly because
we would be greeted as liberators. He ignored his
experienced generals like Powell, and our lack of
sufficient troops and a workable exit strategy led us
directly to the mess we're in now. If he'd taken a poll
of actually qualified people, they would have told him
this ahead of time. Believe me, I'm happy to see SH
gone, but this wasn't the way to handle the aftermath.
\_ This has been gone over so many times. "Bush lied,
people died!" "Halliburton!" "No blood for big
oil!". I'll keep it brief since it really *has*
been covered (and ignored) so many times: every
western intelligence agency in the world believed
SH had WMDs. Period. No one cherry picked anything.
\_ No. They all believed he WANTED WMDs. The Pres.
took that to mean that he had them.
\_ Give it up. The quotes have been posted many
times. Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it
true.
\_ I would be interested to hear what you
have to say about the Carnegie Report on
WMD in Iraq, 2004, particularly from p.15:
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/npp/iraqintell/home.cfm
\_ Uh ok, I went to the site, I clicked the
link, then I opened the pdf, read page
15 and a few pages around it. What
about it? How does that address what I
was saying? Or if that isn't your
point, explain further what you're
talking about and I'll be happy to
address it.
\_ From page 16:
"In brief, the consensus of the intelligence agencies
in early 2002 was that:
-The 1991 Gulf War, UN inspections, and subsequent
military actions had destroyed most of
Iraq.s chemical, biological, nuclear, and longrange
missile capability.
-There was no direct evidence that any chemical or
biological weapons remained in Iraq, but agencies
judged that some stocks could still remain and
that production could be renewed.
-As Iraq rebuilt its facilities, some of the equipment
purchased for civilian use could also be used to
manufacture chemical or biological weapons.
-Without an inspection regime, it was very diffi-
cult to determine the status of these programs."
So here are the truths. Repeating
falsehoods like every western intel
agency believed Saddam had WMD will
not make it so.
\_ So, the The Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace essentially say there was stuff, the stuff
is probably gone, they've been buying stuff that
can be used to reconstitute their programs, but
because they can't inspect they don't know for
sure. So, the President took a better-safe-
than-sorry policy. I've got no problem with
that. Now go back to the 90s like I said and
you'll find quotes from Clinton, Gore, and others
saying SH has WMDs, and no I'm not going to dig
them up for you (again). They'll just get
ignored (again). I said in plain English the
quotes were from the 90s. If you're going to
call someone a liar, get it right. I'm happy to
see that in the next 5 years our quality
intelligence agencies were able to go from "they
have them" to "gosh, we have no clue really but
they've bought the right stuff to have them if
they wanted".
\_ So what you're really saying is that you don't
mind if the western intel did not say that
SH had WMDs because you believe it was enough
that he might have had WMDs. Good for you.
Someday, like a broken clock, you will be
right.
\_ No. I already wrote several times what I'm
saying. Putting words in my mouth is a
third rate rhetorical tactic. If you
actually cared what I was saying you would
have read it but you only seem interested
in "winning" even if it is only in your
own mind. Go read your own links and
quotes if you won't read what I said. They
say the same things I just said even if you
want to misinterpret them for your ego
stroking. And thanks for turning what was
a somewhat interesting discussion into the
now standard motd crap, but I guess that's
just the thing to do once you've run out
of things to say around here. It's ok, I've
come to expect it. I guess we're done here.
Have a nice day.
\_ The French did not believe it, the
Russians did not believe it and the
Germans did not believe it. It is too
bad you drank the kool-aide. You lose.
We had more than enough troops for the invasion, but
\_ We had enough troops to invade, demolish, and get
out, true. We did not have enough troops on the
ground to keep peace afterward.
\_ We absolutely had enough troops. At no point
were troops given orders to take control of
the civilian areas, martial law was never
declared/enforced, rampant looting was allowed
to go on with soldiers watching. All in an
effort to win the hearts and minds. Boo-yah!
\_ no we don't. Shensaki said that based upon
the experience in Bosnia and Serbia, we
needed 300k-500k boots on the ground to
pacify the country..
\_ Based upon a different theatre, a
different war, a different make up of
troops, a different enemy, sigh. If
your army can conquer a region, they can
certainly keep the civilian population
in check *if ordered to do so*.
yes, they screwed up the aftermath. Not because
they didn't have enough troops. They did. Because
they weren't willing to do what needed to be done
with them. Another 500,000 troops would have meant
nothing if their orders are to *not* kill people who
need killing. Had we gone with the Powell Doctrine
of overwhelming force then how many people would be
whining that, "we put so many troops in their country
that of course they're upset. We should have gone
with a much smaller force so as not to enourage the
insurgency." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
\_ These mythical people who would have complained
do not include me or the Iraqis who wouldn't have
died due to the utter breakdown of civilization
in Baghdad.
\_ No, you're missing the point: a larger force
would have moved slower and allowed even more
of the pro-Saddam forces to slip into civies.
We had more than enough troops to militarily
conquer the country. That is a historic fact
demonstrated 100% by what actuall happened: we
conquered the country in record time with
previously unheard of low casualties.
\_ A larger force could have just have easily
rushed forward the same smaller force to
conquer and then deployed the rest to hold
and pacify. You underestimate the mobility
of the US Armed Forces.
\_ Logistics are extremely difficult. All
those troops need food, water, ammo,
fuel, parts, bunks, training, letters
to/from home, cycle time out, and a bunch
of other things I'm sure I've forgotten.
You don't stick half a million guys in a
wasteland and tell them to just go for
it. At the time I think it was only me,
Rumsefelf, and Bush who believed the
Iraqis were going to be swept aside. The
rest of the world was talking about a
50k loss and months of hard fighting and
endless body bags and baby killers and
"omg itll be a quagmire just like Vietnam
all over again!". They had the troops to
secure the ammo dumps. They didn't.
They had the troops to stop the looting.
They didn't. The orders never came
down. Had they cracked down hard on day
1 in Baghdad the rest of the country
would have continued in the same "never
really had a central government anyway"
kind of way they had for decades. The
so-called Sunni Triangle has Baghdad as
one of the points. That is where all
the trouble began and where a tremendous
number of problems still exist today.
Falluja is a good example. We did
nothing while it turned into a swamp.
Then we sort of half assed a kind of
nothing not-quite, nevermind lets go
home attack. It got worse. Then we
sent in a real force and killed everyone
who raised a gun. It is reasonably
quiet there today. I'm stunned they had
the balls to order that especially after
the grave disappointed and leadership
cowardice shown on the first non-attempt.
You underestimate the abilities and
training of the American military.
Shensaki wanted a Vietnam style Powell
Doctrine troop flood. Yes, let's
repeat our previous mistakes by
refighting previous wars just as poorly
using the same tactics that worked so
poorly then.
\_ Here's what I'm getting from this:
I'm arguing a fantasy based on the
idea that more troops, more research,
and not disbanding the Iraqi bureau-
cratic machine might have led to a
better situation in Iraq; you're
arguing a fantasy that martial law
and more aggressive action would have
led to a better situation in Iraq.
We're both agreed that the current
situation suffered once the invasion
was over.
\_ I'm not arguing fantasy. I'm
arguing based on history. Wars
have always been won by applying
force, and by killing people until
they stop fighting back. I have
no idea what you're arguing, but
if you'd like to call your
arguments a fantasy, I'm ok with
that.
\_ Why did we lose Vietnam? Why
did the German's never wipe
our the Russian partisans?
out the Russian partisans?
Why did the Poles never give
up nor the Yugoslavs? How
about India or Algria or
about India or Algeria or
Indonesia? Your view of how
guerilla warfare works is
ignorant.
\_ Vietnam: lack of will at
home. It was won militarily
after the Tet Offensive.
Russians, Poles, Yugoslavs:
conquered and reduced to a
history book footnote.
What about India, Algeria,
or Indonesia? Your view of
what went down in Iraq post
invasion is what is ignorant,
and you continue to ignore
what I've been saying. There
was no reason to have an
insurgency if we had done
the right thing on day 1 or
even up to a week later.
It's been mildly entertaining
but you're now grasping
wildly at straws tossing out
random other country names in
the apparent hope of I'm not
sure what. It was fun but
now we're done. Go ahead
and take another random
potshot, have the last word
to soothe your ego and we're
done. I won't reply to this
thread any further. Have a
nice day.
\_ FWIW, you're arguing with
at least three different
people now. As far as
fantasy goes, there's no
way of knowing whether
your solution or mine (or)
would have worked because
neither was tried, and
every situation is diff-
erent. I _get_ the pre-
cedent for the success of
martial law, and I would
have been interested to
see what would have
happened if it had been
implemented-- but it was
not, and so it's pure
conjecture at this point
to say that it would have
been an unqualified
success. The same goes for
my suggestions. That said,
this is not debate club,
and I have no illusion
that I'm going to con-
vince you of the superior-
ity of my suggestion.
\_ The point is almost any
country that fought
against colonial
occupation in the last
50 years has emerged
triumphant. As will Iraq.
\_ Tibet?
\_ Hopefully not because
I think that would
make Iraq the first
country ever to
resist democracy.
This is not an act of
colonisation. Then
again this is the
Middle East and theyre
all a bunch of raving
lunatics so whatever.
\_ how about disbanding the Iraqi army? not
securing the the ammunition dump? allowing
disbanded army to melt into civilians is the
worse thing can happen.
\_ I still say disbanding the army was the
better of two poor choices. Not securing
the dumps falls under the "didn't declare
martial law" category and I agree that was
stupid.
And a brief word on Chalabi: who *isnt* partisan but
has an interest and contacts in his third world
government? Everyone has an agenda. There is no
mythical neutral person out there who just wanted
what was "best for the Iraqi people".
\_ Chalabi is/was a snake who is/was never trusted by
people in Iraq. A bit of digging would have
revealed this. Instead, he was believed because
what he had to say fit what the Pres. and his
advisors wanted to hear.
\_ They're all snakes. That's the point. At some
point you have to pick your guy(s) and go with
it. No digging was required. He was already
known to be a snake. It wasn't a secret.
Anyone else would've been a snake, only the
name would change.
\_ Then we should have picked a snake who
actually had an idea of the real picture in
Iraq, someone the Iraqis could have backed.
\_ The problem with that is there is no
such thing as an "Iraqi". They don't
see themselves in national terms which
is why they've had such a hard time
forming an effective government and
associated services. They see themselves
as Sunni, Shia, and Kurd and with good
reason. There is *no one* the mythical
average Iraqi could have backed. I
think Chalabi had an excellent idea of
what was going on. He abused his
position for personal gain and got
busted and now he's out of the picture.
The abuse is the snake part. It is to
be expected.
On exit strategies: there is no exit strategy when
your initial plan doesn't include killing enough of
the enemy to break his will. When I saw reports of
the Iraqi army vanishing into the civilian population
I knew we were in for it, but there was no way to
stop that. We could not have moved any faster and
\_ err., we DISBANDED THE ENTIRE ARMY, remember?
de-Baathification?
\_ Yes. And I still prefer that to replacing the
bastard we knew with a new bastard from SH's
old military. That would be the definition of
failure. The idea wasn't to replace one
bastard with another. The idea was to clean
the whole lot out. And I sure as hell wouldn't
want the Baathist army running around still
slaughtering civilians in the name of stability
on my watch.
your Powell Doctrine sized army would have taken
another 3-6 months to build up, moved slower, taken
more casualties and allowed even more Iraqi military
to disolve into the general population.
\_ The Iraqi army disappeared into the population
because they didn't want to fight for SH. A better
and more honest analysis of the situation would
have revealed this and would have shown that the
dissolution of the IA was a bad idea; reform
would have been a better idea. There were people
in place at the time who could have helped with
that. Now there are not.
\_ The disappeared because they were getting
crushed. Not even crushed. They were getting
swept from the battle field as if they were
never on it. Fighting a classic insurgency
campaign was the only alternative. That is
why SH and his pals were handing out cash left
and right before the fall. It was part of a
staged plan because they knew they couldn't
stop the allied forces. As far as disolving
the army goes, it's one of those ugly choices
with no good answer. Disolve it and rebuild
from scratch which takes time or keep the same
bastards in place who were responsible for
mass killing of their own civilians yet
maintain order? I think they made the better
call. The army was Sunni run and would have
just replaced SH with another Sunni military
dictator making the whole thing for naught.
At least this way there is a chance of doing
something better than replacing one bastard
with another.
\_ This does not match the real situation which
was that SH had created a cult of
personality such that no one had power out-
side of him. Kill/capture SH, and the rest
would have fallen apart. This is why we
tried to get him with missiles several times
before invading.
\_ There was no cult of personality. He
had supreme power because like most
dictators he (mostly) rewarded loyalty
while torturing and executing disloyalty.
Cult of personality? Er, uh, what?
Final word at this time: we have more than enough
troops. Our leadership lacked the will to allow
them to do what they were trained to do: find and
kill the enemy in sufficient numbers to break his
will to fight. That is how wars have always been
won. Not this hearts and minds garbage.
\_ The enemy was found and killed or captured. The
enemy was SH, not the Iraqi people (or even the
Iraqi army). But because we focused on finding
and killing/capturing the enemy, we let the
country slide into ruin. GHWB understood this, and
that's why he didn't push all the way to Baghdad
in GWI. You can't leave a power vacuum, or
anarchy will descend.
s
\_ The enemy was not SH nor the people. It was
SH's military and intelligence establishment
as headed by SH. The army was not some bunch
of poor innocent victims. The lowest end
grunts were constripts and draftees, but
anyone in the officer core was scum and in
good need of jail or killing. The country fell
to ruin because we didn't have a post invasion
plan and probably didn't think about or even
care about it. And the only plan that would
have worked is not something they would have
done: declared martial law, rounded up the
thugs and executed or long term imprisoned
them. I do absolutely agree with you about
power vaccuums. We created one the moment the
SH government vanished and we failed to take
control. We had the troops, we lacked the
will at the leadership level.
\_ HAHAHA SUCK IT CONS! You lied, you are going to now pay for your
lies and incompetence. Too bad all the rest of us are going to
have to pay for and clean up your mess. Can we levy a tax on
Bushbots to pay reparations to Iraq?
link:www.csua.org/u/h9k
\_ I'm guessing a tinyurl with no attribution from a troll isn't
work safe but thanks for caring enough to post.
\_ Work safe chart of stock market-esque tracking of the House
GOP. |
| 2006/10/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44851 Activity:kinda low |
10/17 There are times I wish Democrats can just take a stance and stand
firm, like John Murtha:
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/PRwashpostoped.html
\_ Who coined the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism"? 'Cos that's
what goes through my head whenever I hear GOP name-calling.
Also, a thought-provoking piece. Thank you.
\_ Spiro Agnew. Whose name anagrams to "grow a penis." -tom
\_ Is the anagram important for some reason? Is this anything
like spinning a record backwards to hear Satan speak?
\_ To win the game you must kill john romero
\_ I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was FDR. -John
\_ hasn't Hillary held a pretty firm stance over the last 2 years?
\_ She has always had a firmly nuanced stand on all issues, which
may or may not depend on her current audience, the polls and
public mood, or other possible factors or non-factors as
politically appropriate. Until such time as the stance may or
may not need to change according to the blowing winds. Yes,
she has been absolutely firm in her stance for at least a week.
Unless she hasn't.
\_ Yes, we should all be like fucking George W Bush,
despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, "We
did the right thing, Sir!".
\_ One thing being bad doesn't make the other thing good.
The current admin is over January 2009. I'd prefer the
next admin be one that has a world view that goes beyond
the current news/polling cycle *and* does it right. What
is so wrong with that? Clinton is not that person.
\_ observating from outside of USA, I have to inform you
that current administration's world view is pretty
fucked up and what happen today is merely a reflection
of that. There is a reason why US stance in the world
is at the all-time-low and majority of people, even
Europeans, think that USA is a greater threat to the
security of the world than Islamic Extremelism.
\_ Here's the thing: I really don't care what the rest
of the world thinks beyond how it directly has a
negative impact on this country. The rest of the
world doesn't have to like us. They can hate us
as much as they want so long as they keep doing
business with us the rest of their feelings don't
amount to much in my book. So you might ask (and if
not I'm telling you anyway) what does matter to me?
Dead Americans matter. The problem with Iraq is not
the initial invasion, it is the poor post-invasion
planning, the namby pamby Vietnam style execution of
the war on the ground, and general lack of balls.
Wars are not about winning hearts and minds. They
are about killing the enemy until they break. No
war has ever been won by winning over the general
populace of the target nation. None. Ever. If they
didn't have the balls to go in, kill everyone who
needed killing, set up a puppet government and get
the hell out they never should have gone in in the
first place. Back to the EU opinion thing for a
moment: the EU is demographically doomed. Their
opinion regarding the ever growing Islamic extremist
threat all around them vs. their ridiculous "we hate
daddy/USA because we want to be super powers again,
too!" is useless. If they don't get their act
together their culture will be subsumed and cease to
exist as such by the end of this century. This is a
unique time in the world's history. Never before
have so many people had such freedom and power on an
individual level. It is the rest of the world
beyond the West that is normal for human history and
if our culture is not vigorously defended this time
will be remembered as nothing more than that few
extra years it took to crush the non-believers. You
are at war whether you like it or not. Your enemies
are not short term politicians you don't like. I
find the "USA is the greatest threat to world peace!"
slogan childish and historically poorly informed.
I'm glad I'm young enough that I think I'll get to
see exciting sweeping changes across the world but
old enough that I should be dead before it gets
really bad.
\_ I hereby dub thee "wordcount".
\- if you are say a poor person in say malawi and
madonna isnt about to adopt you, frankly your
life, both in terms of possible upside or
downside is going to be more affected by
the united states than it is by nkorea, cuba,
bolivia, libya etc. when the US pushes its own
agenda in something like the doha trade round,
or spews out pollution at a per capita rate
far above everybody else, it has real con-
sequences for people, just as US research into
medicine and agriculture in the past had real
benefits. yes, this is not "i am going to
steal your land and rape your women" type of
"old style" adverse consequences but
nonetheless self-serving free trades regimes,
self-serving ip regimes etc have real
consequnces. for some people it has to do with
who what share of the profits but for the
very poor, they can be pushed into what
jeffrey sachs calls "the poverty that kills".
jeffrey saches calls "the poverty that kills".
we think of scorpions and black widows as
nasty, dangerous animals, more so than
elephants, but i bet elephants are responsible
for more destruction and death.
\_ Hillary has said that her excuse that she is the one
lone freshman senator who's every single legislative move
is micro analyzed by lasers because of her status
\_ status? what status? if it wasn't for her 'status'
she wouldn't had been elected. being special cuts both
ways.
\_ Like her firm and deeply researched demands that Rockstar Games
be held liable for a third-party patch? If this is an omen of
the "Gvt Will Be Your Mommy" she wants to replace Bush's "Gvt
Will Be Your Daddy", I'm not looking forward to it.
\_ fine, her internet law congressional staffer must be
a fucking moron. she probably was involved because
rock star games is in NY. i doubt any Senator out there
has publicly said they are pro GTA. |
| 2006/10/16-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44837 Activity:nil |
10/16 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html Seven out of 10 women giving aid and comfort to the Enemy \_ "However, President George W. Bush personally assured the Iraqi prime minister Monday that he has no plans to pull U.S. troops out and that there is no U.S. timeline for Iraqi forces to take over." Boy, it makes _me_ feel better to know there's no timeline to hand things over to the Iraqis. \_ Bush found out that "we stand down as they stand up" sounded too much like "cutting and running". \_ this is the part i don't understand. what is wrong with "cutting and running?" we are already done that in Afghanistan. \_ probably because Afghanistan was always a mess and we never really made a serious commitment to turning it into a real country. the rest of the world and half of this country didn't think we'd even win militarily. but iraq, although a brutal dictatorship, was still a functioning government and there's a healthy dose of break-it-bought-it that goes with destroying another nation's government. so we owe the iraqi people some form of real government but afghanistan never had that so the bar is lower. |
| 2006/10/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44812 Activity:nil |
10/13 British Army head receives overwhelming support from military
http://csua.org/u/h71 (guardian.co.uk)
One senior officer says chief's statements hurt morale
http://csua.org/u/h73 (telegraph.co.uk)
PM Blair says he agrees "with every word" ... of Army chief's follow-on
statements
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6049126.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6046822.stm |
| 2006/10/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44794 Activity:nil |
10/12 http://csua.org/u/h6i (latimes.com) http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/12/iraq.main/index.html Libural media receive their just deserts - all 13 males at Baghdad TV station shot with weapons muffled by silencers (two females let go). Gunmen pulled up in six cars resembling police vehicles at 7am, some wearing police uniforms. Neighbors and nearby guards heard no gunfire. "That there were no holes or cracks in these glass dividers which means that the executioners are professionals, not ordinary killers" \- gee, at least anarchy is temporary \_ so's life. |
| 2006/10/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44793 Activity:nil |
10/12 http://csua.org/u/h6k (dailymail.co.uk) Head of the British Army says "our presence in Iraq exacerbates" the "difficulties we are experiencing around the world", says should "get ourselves out sometime soon". Also calls for UK soldiers to recover in military wards, and laments decline of "Judeo-Christian tradition" in UK and rise of Islamic extremism. \_ I love how he manages to blame (apparently secular) liberalism for the horrible state of British affairs. \_ so he wants the uk to go isolationist and pray to jesus? |
| 2006/10/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44778 Activity:low |
10/11 Iraqi are better off? Tell 1 in 40 Iraqis who died since the US
invasion: http://tinyurl.com/geore
\_ Your knee jerked before you checked--this has already been posted
today.
\_ The Iraqi Deputy PM was on NPR yesterday, and I found his
perspective enlightening. He said that no matter how bad the
situation is now, nothing compares to the horror of living under
Saddam. That said, he also pointed out that he was in no way saying
that things are rosy or even good now. All in all, a fascinating
interview clip. --erikred
\- well, i obviously have no experience with iraq, but i think
there is something to the following "a priori" argument:
in the saddam era, rights and freedom were curtailed but
the violence wasnt random. there was a good chance you could
"choose" to keep your head down, go along to get along, and it
was highly likely you would be left alone. however, today it
seems it is quite likely anytime you leave the house to go
buy some cheese, go to work, apply for a job you will get
blown up. there is something to the hobbesian position that
anarchy is worse than tyranny. consider how freaked out london
was when the ira was planting bombs or those crazy sniper doods
were shooting people in Washington DC ... the numbers in iraq
are 100x or 1000x worse ... i think that affects life in ways
which just canot be appreciated at a distance [just like you
cant imagine what life is like under say hyperinflation].
\_ The difference being that tyranny has no end. Anarchy is a
temporary state. Power will always gather around some person
or group who will then seize control for better or worse.
\_ Armed anarchy is merely detente thuggery.
\_ This guy is just a Bush troll and needs to be replaced by
someone who better understands the Iraqi people and their
situation like some motd posters.
\_ Point of clarification: I'm a Bush troll or the Iraqi Deputy
PM is a Bush troll? --erikred
\_ The Iraqi DPM is a Bush troll. Why else would he say that
over 650k dead Iraqis, 550k of them in the last 2 years
is ok?
\_ He didn't. In fact, what he said was that he disputed
the numbers but was opposed to saying "only" 30-100k
as if any number would be a good thing. It was on All
Things Considered. I'll see if I can dig up a URL for
you. Here you go: http://csua.org/u/h6j (NPR) |
| 2006/10/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44774 Activity:low 80%like:44769 |
10/11 The invasion of Iraq may have caused 650,000 Iraqi deaths.
http://tinyurl.com/fjqs7 (online.wsj.com)
\_ Yawn. May have? In the same way there was 'up to' 800 killed on
the Bay Bridge from the Loma Prieta quake as reported by the Daily
Cal. These guys admit they time and public with a political
agenda. Where are these 650k bodies? They don't just vanish like
in a video game.
\_ Video of Lancet editor speaking at anti-war rally:
http://csua.org/u/h5w
\_ "caused" -- no. This is Lancet II. Once again timed to come out
just before an election.
\_ do you have a point?
\_ The Lancet debunkers have been...debunked.
\_ Well, I was the most outspoken critic of the Lancet study.
Some good arguments here convinced me I was wrong about a bias
from selecting locations. However, the motives of getting the
result out just before an election, and the trust that any
errors in the study trended towards a lower mortality rate are
still there. -emarkp
\_ Do you still believe the Iraq War is the right thing?
\_ He's not replying because he's still embarrassed
about his stance that he no longer believes in:
http://csua.com/?entry=35423
\_ It was the right thing. The post war plan was either
non-existent or executed poorly. There's a difference.
\_ The pre- and post-war planning was misguided.
\_ So they should have waited until after the election, like
James Baker's "secret plan" to fix the war?
\_ No, but "rushing" the study to get it out before the
election is a bit problematic. -emarkp
\_ I really doubt anything like this actually affects
elections. People pretty much either know about this
stuff or don't care. To the latter this is more
noise. To the former they already have their opinion.
\_ Actually, the non-partisan voters are increasing.
And for people on the fence, this may make a
difference.
\_ People on the fence about this particular
issue are idiots. I doubt they would even
hear about this.
\_ Actually, they are not. The true "genius"
of Karl Rove was his realization that the
mythical "swing voters" were disappearing,
and the way to win elections was purely
through base-pandering (c.f. 2004 election).
\_ At least here in CA, (I) is growing, while
(R) and (D) are shrinking.
\_ Because many non-motd readers have
figured out that both parties suck and
are full of criminals at the top.
\_ There's always an election coming up somewhere.
\_ Last study came out Oct 2004. This time Oct 2006. |
| 2006/10/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44769 Activity:high 80%like:44774 |
10/11 The invasion of Iraq may have caused 650,000 Iraqi deaths.
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB116052896787288831-lMyQjAxMDE2NjEwMDUxMjA4Wj.html
\_ "caused" -- no. This is Lancet II. Once again timed to come out
just before an election.
\_ do you have a point?
\_ The Lancet debunkers have been...debunked.
\_ Well, I was the most outspoken critic of the Lancet study.
Some good arguments here convinced me I was wrong about a bias
from selecting locations. However, the motives of getting the
result out just before an election, and the trust that any
errors in the study trended towards a lower mortality rate are
still there. -emarkp |
| 2006/10/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:44764 Activity:nil |
10/11 http://www.csua.org/u/h5n Former senator Sam Nunn (D-Ga.) faulted the administration for focusing\ on Iraq first, when greater threats loomed in North Korea and Iran. "We started with Iraq in the 'axis of evil' side, when we thought they did not yet have nuclear weapons, and that sent the signal to others that they better get them quick," he said. "I think we started on the wrong end of that." \_ Re: last quote: O RLY? \_ Anyone have a Sam Nunn quote from before the war telling us this? |
| 2006/10/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44731 Activity:very high |
10/8 Bush diplomacy comes to its logical conclusion:
Threatening three countries, labeling them the "Axis of Evil" and
then invading one of them for no real reason causes the other two
to pursue nuclear weapons to defend themselves. Good job, neocons,
are you actually double agents out to destroy America or are you just
that stupid?
\_ you are unamerican. there is a "relationship" between Iraq and
9/11. And we are making progress in Iraq:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6221366
(NPR: U.S. Monthly Toll in Iraq at Highest Point in 2 Years)
see, we are breaking records!
\_ Except for the fact that all three countries were working on nukes
many years before 2000, this is an excellent analysis. ;-)
\_ missing the point. imagine if we are not stuck in Iraq,
we would of have a lot more options against N.Korea, no?
\_ No, not really. Even with a WWII sized draft size army we
would not invade NK. Current military doctrine is to bomb
from high flying jets/bombers and missiles from Navy TF way
over the horizon, not put a million men on the ground.
\_ And Israel demonstrated how effective that is when they
used it against Hezbollah.
\_ I didn't say it was effective. Anyway, the NK have the
sort of traditional WWII style army which it would
*mostly* work against but that wouldn't matter anyway.
\_ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134625,00.html
WASHINGTON. The chief U.S. arms inspector in Iraq has found
no evidence of weapons of mass destruction (search) production
by Saddam Hussein's (search) regime after 1991.
no evidence of weapons of mass destruction production
by Saddam Hussein's regime after 1991.
U.S. officials also said the report shows Saddam was much
farther away from a nuclear weapons program in 2003 than he
was between 1991 and 1993; there is no evidence that Iraq and
Al Qaeda exchanged weapons; and there is no evidence that
Al Qaeda and Iraq shared information, technology or personnel
in developing weapons.
\_ Yeah no kidding "after 1991". What a weird date to go by.
I wonder what happened at that time? And how exactly do
we know all this? We had to invade to find out. Thanks
for the update.
\_ Um, is this sarcasm? Desert Storm happened in 1991.
\_ Yes that was sarcasm pointing out that "no big surprise
that after 1991 Hussein's ability to produce weapons
was greatly reduced since he just got smashed". And
"being farther or closer" to nukes isn't the point at
all anyway since it was about all 3 countries having
worked on a nuke program long prior to 2000. GWB has
screwed up any number of things like all Presidents
(because they're human) but Iraq, Iran and NK working
on nukes had *nothing* to do with him as the op
falsely claims. Lay blame where it belongs but there's
no need to rewrite history to create fault where none
exists.
\_ So you don't think threatening to invade a country
has anything to do with them working on producing
weaponry? What color is the sky in your world?
\_ The nukes were in development while Bush JR was
in rehab. Go see what the OP said. It flies
in the face of reality. Was Clinton threatening
them? Bush Sr? Reagan? No. So why build
nukes? Lots of reasons but none of them having
to do with Bush Jr. threatening them or the US
in general. Blue. If you want to drag this to
some other topic, that's fine, but what you're
saying has nothing to do with the OP's claims.
\_ They *were* in development, then Iraq
*stopped* working on them. NK *was* working
on them, then *stopped* working on them,
until they were threatened. I honestly
don't know the status of Iran's nuclear
weapon program but it certainly was
accelerated after Bush's threat to Iran.
Do you honestly believe that these countries
slowed down their weapon's research in
response to a credible outside threat?
Is this your serious contention?
\_ Iraq stopped because they got crushed in
GW1, geeze. Iran never stopped as far as
we know. NK never stopped for any lengthy
period of time as far as we know. And in
each case they were started during a
previous administration. This is historic
fact. I make no other contentions in
that regard. As far as Iran goes, btw,
their original reason for the pro-nuke
policy change from their original "nukes
are against the Koran" policy was getting
their ass kicked by Iraqi gas attacks.
That wasn't Jr's fault either. As far as
their speed of research goes, I'm sure
they were already going as fast as possible
because getting them second in the region
doesn't have nearly the same weight as
being first. What gave you the idea they
were just slowly crawling along until the
Great Satan turned his Evil Eye their way?
Is it your contention that NK and Iran and
Iraq had no serious interest in nukes until
the Great Satantic Dictator came to power
in the US and all was rainbows and
chocolate rivers before that? Seriously,
give it a rest. This is all history book
stuff.
\_ Yes, it is my serious contention that
Iraq was not doing any nuclear research
and not only was not making progress
towards developing one, they were
actually going backwards as they
lost skill and capability. This is not
just my contention, it was the finding
of the bipartisan Iraq commission. Do
you dispute those findings? Lots of
countries "have interest" in things.
We should not start wars because
of a nations interest in something,
only because it is an actual threat.
Furthermore, it is my contention that
NK was mostly abiding by the terms of
the Clinton sponsored UN guidelines,
where they agreed to halt nuclear
research in return for free nuclear
power. Soon after Bush's "Axis of Evil"
speech, NK renounced the agreement,
broke the seals on the nuclear rods
and turned off the UN nonitor cameras.
The CIA agrees with me, btw, at least
according to The Washington Times,
a paper not usually known for its
pro-Clinton stance:
http://www.csua.org/u/h5f
"North Korea announced last year that
it had a secret program to enrich
uranium for nuclear weapons. It then
expelled international inspectors who
had been monitoring the nuclear weapons\
freeze and restarted the small
5-megawatt reactor. "
\_ Uh, yes, secret NK program. Thanks
for making my point there. As far
as Iraq goes, of course they went
backwards after GW1. What else
would happen? And they had to go
backwards from something, meaning
they had already conducted research.
Man, I thought I was going to have to
go find an actual link when I first
saw how long your post was with a
link and all but all you've done is
support what I've been saying all
along: those 3 countries had nuke
programs while Jr. was in rehab.
Thanks for saving me the hassle of
finding a link. I'll take your WT
link as is. Going home now. Have a
nice evening.
\_ So I guess we agree that I have
made my point: Bush's trash talking
and belligerent warmongering have
resulted in America being less
safe. Thanks for playing. |
| 2006/10/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44717 Activity:nil |
10/7 I've been watching HBO's Rome series (about 80% historically accurate,
20% gratuitous), so this Robert Harris NYT OpEd piece struck home:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/opinion/30harris.html |
| 2006/10/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44704 Activity:low |
10/5 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/washington/05doctrine.html Left-wing counter-insurgency tactics infect new Army field manual "The more force used, the less effective it is." "Tactical success guarantees nothing." "The more you protect your force, the less secure you are." \_ You should read "The Men Who Stare at Goats". \_ I'd say those are more like commie traitor tactics than left wing. Or perhaps, socialist. --!the invisible hand \_ Who cares. There are only two ways to fight a guerilla force. You need LOTS of dudes to get friendly with the natives, and convince them that their life is/would/will be a lot better if they cooperate with the occupying force, BEFORE the guerilla forces become well entrenched. After they get entrenched... the only way to win is to kill everyone. \_ These are all views espoused by the infamous commie insurgent Sun Tzu. You may remember him; his work, The Art of War, is required reading at West Point and Annapolis. \_ That was a rockin good game for the day. |
| 2006/10/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:44701 Activity:high |
10/5 I don't care about Michelle Malkin. Or Reps assfucking
pages. or George Soros. What I do care about is the administration
getting torture techniques legalized. What is really funny
is they are modeled on stuff used by the russians, the khmer
rouge, the real bad guys of the 20th century. what gwbush
forgets is those guys tortured people to get confessions,
not to get real live intel that they could act on. assholes.
\_ Colin Powell learned this the hard way. One of the "evidence"
he presented in United Nation was "extracted" from some "terrorist"
who later said he said that to stop the torture.
America should of draw a hard lesson learned from French
and its Algerian Revolution. Once you start to torture and loose
the moral high-ground, you loose legimacy on this struggle.
\_ Surely you have a link to back this up--or maybe you're just
blowing this out your ass. Oh, and for all the mantra-chanting
that torture doesn't work, we have proof that at least
waterboarding does:
9/21 In other torture news, ABC reporter Brian Ross reports that
torture works. Video clip: http://csua.org/u/gyd
\_ You know what? I don't care it works or not. This is not
an episode of 24. I live
in fucking UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The best
country in the WORLD. Or so I thought. Why the fuck
are we torturing people? I'm going to quit my
job and devote my life to ANSWER or something, this makes
me so mad.
\_ You're right, this isn't 24. If things go bad REAL PEOPLE
FUCKING DIE. And so I want our gov't to use the tools that
work against these animals.
\_ Yes, first step is dehumanizing your opponent. Then,
you can justify any degree of mistreatment for any
reason. They do it to us, we do it to them. You
filthy capitalist American infidel pig-dog! You
deserve to die, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. You fucking
idiot, we must not become our enemy.
\_ We are not becoming our enemy. We know that
waterboarding was used on top Al Qaeda people, not
necessarily on any random person. Meanwhile, our
enemy CUTS THE HEADS OFF OUR PEOPLE IF THEY'RE
\_ To them, "our people" are filthy infidel
Americans who deserve beheading. To you,
they are damn animals who deserve
waterboarding.
CAPTURED. You are apparently incapable of telling
the difference.
\_ So you're okay with indefinite detention on the
word of the executive? Redefinition of what
constitutes torture on the same word? As long
as we don't decapitate people, you're fine with
your government's actions?
\_ For a small number of people, indefinite
detention is okay. And no, my threshold is
lower than decapitaction. But it's higher than
waterboarding.
\_ Then you're unamerican, undemocratic, and
truly a danger to the future of our country.
\_ Do you understand what happens during
waterboarding? Would you be willing to have
it done to you in a reasonably safe
environment in order to demonstrate its
acceptability?
\_ Yes I understand. I've talked with
military guys who've gone through SERE
training and were waterboarded. I
suspect you don't know what it is. Hint:
it's not putting someone's head
underwater.
\_ No. It's placing the client on his
back with his head lower than his
torso, then putting a plastic bag or
other dam in place and then filling
the reservoir around the client's
with water. The water then fills the
nose and upper respiratory tract,
giving the immediate impression of
drowning. A doctor is generally kept
on hand to monitor the client's
life signs and to ressucitate,
through CPR and/or defib if the client
somehow aspirates the water. If this
is somehow something that you would
not mind being applied to one of your
loved ones without trial or reason
other than goverment suspicion, then
I propose that you try this first to
to show us how it's not that bad.
\_ Not how I heard it from someone who
went through it. No reservoir
necessary, just a very wet cloth
put over the face. Your version
sounds fine to me as well.
\_ If this is somehow something
that you would not mind being
applied to one of your loved
ones without trial or reason
other than goverment suspicion,
then I propose that you try
this first to show us how it's
fine.
\_ The thing you fail to grasp is that without trials,
without due process, we aren't necessarily
torturing those evil beheading enemies of ours,
we're torturing innocent people. This isn't a
hypothetical... it's already happened.
\_ The thing you fail to grasp is that without
trials, without due process, we aren't
necessarily torturing those evil beheading
enemies of ours, we're torturing innocent
people. This isn't a hypothetical... it's
already happened.
\_ Eggs, omelettes...
\_ What you fail to understand is that
concepts of criminality (such as the
presumption of innocence) may not be
applicable to warfare. Due process is
generally not applicable to prisoners
of war. Anyway, there is something to
lighten the mood:
link:tinyurl.com/ejakx (comics.com)
\_ I'm not watching an O'Reilley clip. Do you have another
source for this? Surely if it's ABC's Brian Ross you'll have
a non-video write-up somewhere? And no, I'm not stfw; it's
your point, you do the work.
\_ Is the O'Reilley clip inaccurate or wrong in some way or
is this just a rejection on personal grounds? -someone else
\_ BOR raises my blood pressure. That's a personal failing,
and I freely admit to it.
\_ Um, most of the clip is Brian Ross speaking. It's
directly from his mouth.
\_ Never mind, I couldn't resist stfw anyway. Most results on
"brian ross torture" return right-wing sites pointing to
the BOR clip. Nowhere on the ABC site was there any
confirmation. Care to try again?
\_ Are you brain damaged? You won't watch BOR even when
most of the clip is Brian Ross? And BOR is expressing
some skepticism about anonymous sources?
\_ Ah, that's right, only brain damaged people would
want to avoid watching an interview clip from the
Factor. If Brian Ross thinks torture works, let him
say so on his ABC blog. Or, barring that, let him
say so on any other media outlet than BOR. I've
never considered BOR to be news, so why would I want
to get news from BOR? If I want opinion, sure, but
news? I mean, you don't go to the Daily Show for
news, right? (Though recent research suggests you
should.)
\_ But you're getting your news from BRIAN FUCKING
ROSS. Just because he's talking to BOR, why do
you care?
\_ Because I'm getting my news from an
interview with Ross conducted by O'Reilly.
\_ So what? You're hearing it from Ross'
mouth.
\_ It's been fun playing with you, but
work (hunting through someone else's
Perl spaghetti code) sounds like more
fun. Bye.
\_ Wow, touchy, no wonder your blood
boils so easily. --!ppp
\_ "should've drawn?" "lose the moral high-ground?"
It's a miracle you got "its" right, but it may have been an
accident. Seriously, I can look past "loose," but "should of"
is just too far out there.
\_ Bad grammar aside, I did not know that Powell's points
in his UN speech was a bunch of shit extracted from
a tortured suspect. So any word on who the hell
in the Bush Administration or Heritage Foundation decided
one day that torturing people got us good intel?
\_ They just wanted to set a precedent on torture.
Before long we'll be torturing confessions out of
our own people.
\_ Bad grammar or not, he's right on every point.
\_ Why do you care? Youtube is a free, money losing
service. They can do what they want. Michelle Malkin
is an evil annoying ugly real life troll who lives
to bait people so she can issue self righteous
commentary, the entire world would be better off
if she would move to North Korea.
\_ Because she hasn't done anything to violate their
terms of service. If they'd like to change their
terms to cover her, they're welcome to and then they
can apply and enforce that policy across the board.
\_ See below.
\_ And my reply to that below. |
| 2006/10/5-7 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44686 Activity:nil |
10/5 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml "Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union" |
| 2006/10/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44660 Activity:nil |
10/3 Better Off Without Saddam Watch:
"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities have taken a police brigade out of
service and returned them to training because of "complicity" with
death squads in the wake of a mass kidnapping in Baghdad this week, a
U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061004/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_police
\_ Yes, and?
\_ Well, see, under Saddam, they'd've at least lost their pensions.
\_ I know you're joking but seriously, not only did they not
lose any benefits, they were doing their jobs as ordered. |
| 2006/10/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44648 Activity:nil |
10/3 http://csua.org/u/h3a (reuters.com) Maybe this is the October Surprise: The Ramadan Agreement "Iraqi leaders hope to flesh out a deal to end sectarian bloodshed in Baghdad when they meet again on Tuesday but conceded a four-point plan, drafted under U.S. pressure, was still a long way short on vital substance." Perhaps Dubya will also proclaim victory (security forces are standing up in decent numbers, and time to let Iraqis fight for their democracy) and redeploy the troops. |
| 2006/10/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44629 Activity:low |
10/2 http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Condi-Iraq-war-9-11.wmv http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Condi-Iraq-war-9-11.mov http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9684807 Re-post from last year: "But the fact of the matter is that when we were attacked on September 11, we had a choice to make. We could decide that the proximate cause was al-Qaeda and the people who flew those planes into buildings and, therefore, we would go after al-Qaeda and perhaps after the Taliban and then our work would be done ... Or we could take a bolder approach, ... go after the root causes of the kind of terrorism that was produced there, and that meant a different kind of Middle East. And there is no one who could have imagined a different kind of Middle East with Saddam Hussein still in power." Condi Rice is a fucking moron. \_ Just because you disagree with her she's a moron? You're a egomaniac. \_ well, let's put it this way: in your honest opinion, is her position moronic or !moronic? \_ I don't think it's moronic. And if you disagree I'd like to see why. -pp \_ idea = non-moronic (I agree with you to this extent). status of the idea after being evaluated for feasibility = should have been dead. eventual plan & execution = teh suck. long-term damage to American interests and lives affected = odious. Saying, "It was a good idea!" after piss-poor planning and execution and going with a non-feasible idea to begin with = moronic. IMO. I can see why people might disagree. \_ I agree with that analysis more or less. I think the idea is still good, but the current implementation sucks. -pp \_ The war on terror, war on drugs, war on poverty. What these have in common is that the steps needed to "win" are either non-existant ,undesirable, or the cure is worse than the disease. War on drugs: If we started executing all drug users and dealers the problem would eventually go away. poverty: European welfare state would remove almost all poverty. terror: I don't see any realistic way of getting there, but Bush has certainly done a good job to try and "lose" this war. |
| 2006/10/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44620 Activity:very high |
10/1 When a Democrat has oral sex with an intern, whatever. When a
Republican writes gay letters to one underaged boy, he quits.
\_ When a Democrat has oral sex with an intern, they spend $100
million to investigate. When 3k people die in the worst mass
murder in American history, whatever.
\_ I wouldn't call two wars and a trillion dollars "whatever", but
that's just me.
\_ "I really don't spend that much time on him"
\_ Which is different than him not actually spending much time
or resources on him.
\_ Iraq is not about Osama bin Laden or Al Quaeda. -tom
\_ Bin Laden and Al Qaeda disagree with you.
\_ Yes, yes, it's just about Bush Junior avenging his
daddy and HALIBURTON! and Blood For Big Oil! and
making the top 1% richer and Israel who actually
lew up the towers and turning the US into a
dictatorship and establishing and expanding American
Hegemony(tm) through the world and probably a few
others I forgot. Please fill in where I left off.
\_ It's about the Project For a New American Century.
You know, the group including Cheney, Rumsfeld,
Wolfowitz, etc., who sent an open letter to
Clinton in 1998 that America should assert its
strength to remake the world to our best
interests, and that we should start by invading
Iraq. This is not a secret conspiracy.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
-tom
\_ That letter doesn't imply anything close
to what you assert. What it says is that
Saddam must be removed as a threat. Where
are you getting this "America should
assert its strength to remake the world to
our best interests, and that we should start
by invading Iraq" stuff? I never figured
Tom to be a tinfoil hat type.
\_ Statement of Principles, June 1997:
"As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States
stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the
West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an
opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have
the vision to build upon the achievements of past
decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape
a new century favorable to American principles and
interests? ... We seem to have forgotten the essential
elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a
military that is strong and ready to meet both present
and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and
purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and
national leadership that accepts the United States'
global responsibilities."
stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to
victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a
challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build
upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States
have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American
principles and interests?
...
We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan
Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready
to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy
that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles
abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United
States' global responsibilities."
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
You really need to open your eyes. -tom
\_ So now you are introducing an entirely different document
and it *still* doesn't say what you said above, or even
imply it.
\_ You clearly aren't reading. You don't think there's
any connection between the foundation started in 1997 by
the group of chicken hawks now in power to promote American
militarism, whose first open letter advocated the invasion
of Iraq, and the fact that the same group of chicken hawks
decided to invade Iraq on trumped-up evidence? -tom
\_ Maybe, maybe not. You are reading into it what you
want to read into it. There's a lot of inferences
being made. The first letter just said that Saddam
should be removed from power. The second letter
advocates a string military, a global leadership
position, and foreign policy which puts US interests
first. You might be right that there's a conspiracy
to US global domination at all costs, but you can't
prove it based on the evidence you've presented.
\_ I agree entirely with you. It would be
better if our nation did not take action
to reshape the world to be favorable to
American interests, but instead reshaped
it to be unfavorable. Er uh yeah! So,
back to reality for a moment: what is
wrong with a nation attempting to reshape
the world in a self-interested way? That
is the reason for being for all nations.
Now then, if you're opposed to the
existence of nations, that's another
story, but any nation that does not try
to serve self-interest will be tossed in
history's trashcan. You may disagree with
their methods, you may disagree with the
specifics of what is self interest and
what is not, but railing against national
self-interest is senseless.
\_ It seems to me that there are many
ways to define national self-interest,
and that none of them apply to the
Iraq debacle. A stable middle east?
Access to cheap oil? Less power for
Islamic extremists? A stable and
financially sound U.S. government?
The spread of American values and
diplomatic capital with other nations?
It's a failure on all counts. Unlike
most motd liberals, I actually supported
the invasion of Iraq. But unlike the
motd conservatives, I'm willing to admit
I was wrong and that the present
clusterfuck is worse for America and
the world even than Saddam.
\_ I agree the post-invasion was and
continues to be screwed up. But
let's do a what-if. What-if they
had declared martial law on day 1,
rounded up and destroyed the zillion
tons of free floating weapons,
sealed the borders to Iran+Syria,
and then held elections of some sort
once the country was stable and
under control? Same invasion, but
very different post-invasion with
a different "today". If you can
agree that this was a possible
outcome of the invasion, then the
invasion itself was in American
self-interest, they just botched the
aftermath. And btw, yes, I'm
\_ Ok, we agree.
conservative in foreign affairs
but generally leaning one way or
the other doesn't require blind
knee-jerk responses to real world
issues and questions. Even those
evil conservatives can make
rational evaluations. You just
won't find that kind of conservative
on the freeper zones any more than
you'll find rational liberals on
dailykos.
\_ Nice straw man. I noticed you
completely stopped trying to
address the point, which is
that invading Iraq is part
of a very specific plan by
a very specific group of
people, who had decided to
do it before they were even
in power. -tom
\_ That isn't a strawman. It is
a direct response to "unlike
motd conservatives...". And
what exactly is your point?
That some guys with no power
wanted to invade Iraq? I have
no power and want a lot of
things, too. So what? What
is your point? I'm dumb, so
if you spell it out for me,
I'll address it.
\_ You realize you're
responding to two different
people, right?
\_ Yup. And one of them
called accused me of
strawmanning for
replying to the other.
I was clarifying.
\_ The guy to whom you
were clafifying
interrupted your
clarification to
agree with you, and
has returned to
attempting to do
useful engineering
work.
\_ "Iraq is not about
Osama bin Laden or
Al Qaeda." That's the
point I raised up above.
The Iraq invasion is
the culmination of a
strategy planned and
implemented in the open;
you do not have to posit
the existence of secret
conspiracies or anything
at all; you only need to
read what these people
wrote. Whether you think
their strategy was a
good idea or not is
not really relevant to
my point. -tom
\_ Uh, sure... who was
disputing these guys
wrote an *open* letter
in the 90s or claimed
there was a conspiracy
or whatever? Me and
the other person
ignored that and went
on to other topics
because there was no
"there" there. It was
an *open* letter. What
was your point again?
Slowly for me this time
because I'm really
really dumb. Thanks.
\_ I agree, you're
really dumb. -!tom
\_ If there's a
point, you or tom or anyone else are welcome to make it. As
far as I can figure the point is "there was a public document
and uhm...". That's about it. Personal attack is always a
good substitute for substance. Keep it up, you'll go far.
\_ Tom's point: Iraq was not about UBL. Your response:
WDYHA? Yeah, you're a fricking debating genius.
\_ No one but tom was talking about that. I'm not a
debating genius but I can stay on board as a conversation
shifts and moves on. tom seems to get that. Why don't
you?
\_ See below.
\_ Tom said Iraq was not about UBL or AQ but about the PfaNAC.
You then replied with a parody of conspiracy screeds, which
appeared to imply that Tom was a conspiracy nut. Tom then
elaborated on his point by suggesting that the PfaNAc was
behind the invasion of Iraq. He then provided a URL to a
letter from PfaNAC suggesting "that America should assert
its strength to remake the world to our best interests, and
that we should start by invading Iraq." You then said that
the letter did not say anything of the sort, and then you
\_ no sorry that was someone else. i never said the
letter was anything but exactly what it looked
like which was a bunch of powerless guys who wanted
to invade iraq. i didn't write anything at anytime
that disputed tom's take on their open letter.
implied that Tom was a tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy nut.
Tom then posted a portion of the PfaNAC's Statement of
Principles that matches, closely, the policies of the
current administration; this would seem to suggest that the
PfaNAC, of which Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and other
architects of the invasion of Iraq are active participants,
dictated the policy that led to the invasion of Iraq. You
then switched tacts and chose to turn the debate to whether
the policy advocated was effective or not. When confronted
\_ no i was talking with someone else at this point
as previously mentioned.
on this, you denied disputing the point to begin with.
\_ because i didn't. there was no dispute.
Now, I see you launching two ad hominem attacks against
Tom and then denying a position you held half a page up.
\_ no, i'm glad to see tom and i agreed on the basics
and were done which is about where someone else
stepped in with personal attacks on me.
That would appear to be the substitute for substance you
later mentioned. Per your own advice: "Keep it up, you'll
go far."
\_ thanks, i've done fine but the rest of your
analysis is based on a confusion as to who was
responding to what and who wrote what at various
points. it was a pleasure chatting with you.
have a nice day.
\_ You do the same. In the meantime, would some
eager young CSUA member like to write a command
line tool for proper conversation threads on the
motd? TIA.
\_ Let's see: oral sex between two consenting adults or solicitation
(and possible corruption) of a minor, which one's illegal?
Hell, which one's even potentially illegal?
\_ Adultery and oral copulation are still on the books in many
states. Age of consent in DC is 16, isnt it? That makes the
IMs legal, does it not? -devil's advocate
\_ Is adultery and oral copulation illegal in DC?
\_ absolutely no idea, but just saying.... -da
\_ From what I understand, it would be legal, but for legislation
that the guy himself backed specifically related to actions
done over the Internet. The irony is piled high.
\_ Right on. Which legislation was this?
\_ The blah blah Child Protection and Welfare blah blah
Act. I'm pretty sure he's in violation of his own law.
\_ Does anyone know if he has any previous anti-gay quotes?
It would seem like a southern republican should make some
asinine statements while stumping against gay marriage...
\_ No idea, but he sure did a lot of work for the Co$:
http://www.fso.org/en_US/news-events/pg005.html
\_ Clinton was impeached. I also think making unwelcome advances toward
a minor is rather different than receiving oral sex from a (by all
accounts) willing adult.
\_ This doesn't have to be partisan. This guy's a scumbag. The GOP
leadership screwed up by not investigating this earlier. And
whoever leaked it saved it for an October surprise. I'm not seeing
any good guys here.
\_ Your post already defines the good guys: anyone who didn't send
the IMs, cover up the incident, or save the reveal for an
election season surprise. Right now, there seem to be plenty of
people on both sides of the aisle who fit that definition,
including Nancy Pelosi.
\_ Nice censorship for deleting my response. Since we don't know
who was involved, how can you claim that Pelosi wasn't one of
them?
\_ As for censorship, I'm using motdedit, so it wasn't me
deleting your post. As for Pelosi, yeahbuhwhaaat?
\_ Yeah no kidding. They're all politicians. Anyone who got
themselves into Federal office and especially the repeat
offenders is almost certainly a slime and a "bad guy" in
more ways than their voters could stomach if they knew.
\_ We don't know who saved and leaked the IMs. How can you claim
Pelosi isn't involved when we simply don't know? |
| 2006/9/30-10/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:44609 Activity:high |
9/29 Is there any possibility of trying GWB as a war criminal?
\_ In the US the only possibility of a politician being tried as a
criminal is when you publicly sodomize an underaged girl, watch
little boy porns, or when your intern sucks your dick.
\_ In the US or in Europe? In the US, probably no chance,
in Europe, probably very easy.
\_ In Europe very difficult, as improbable as in the US. In the
countries whose governments officially call for that sort of
stupidity, probably very easy, but then again it's usually
posturing by two-bit thugs and tyrants. -John
\_ Difficult in Europe? Really? I thought the ICC had already
received indictments against Bush, Blair, Tommy Franks, &c.
under the Belgium universal jx provision.
\_ It depends on what sort of trial you want. If you just want
"a" trial, then go ahead and have one at the next CSUA
meeting. If you're talking about a trial with the teeth to
\_ This would be fucking hilarious.
enforce it's decision, then not a chance in hell is any one in
the US government ever going to be tried.
\_ Indictment != trial. This is the same as Euro scandal rags
screaming that "you can sue ANYONE FOR ANYTHING in
America!!111" -John
\_ nope you can't. You have to lose a war first. Even if you lost
a war, if the victims are not white, you have a very good chance
get away with it.
\_ Who are these war criminals who got away with it? Can you name
a few? And no, dying in prison during your trial doesn't count
as getting away with it. Nor does taking poison in your bunker.
\_ Emperor Hirohito of Japan, Shiro Ishii of Unit 731,
Prince Asaka Yasuhiko, the list can go on and on. |
| 2006/9/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44591 Activity:very high |
9/28 Sino-US War? (as seen on Slashdot)
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2121111&C=america
\_ Gee, with Chinese generals openly saying they're going to correct
the error of western domination you're surprised at that?
\_ ObFastestGrowingEconomySoMustBeOurFriends(c).
\_ Wow, this is fascinating. I believe you, but can you provide a
link so I read up on these comments?
\_ I could be wrong about this now that I've double-checked. I
could have confused it with the last paragraph of this:
http://www.sandhill.com/opinion/daily_blog.php?id=17&post=74
\_ With our military bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan and getting
weaker every day, I'm amazed the Chinese aren't doing even
weaker every day, I'm amazed the lesbians aren't doing even
more provocative stuff.
\_ We now have the most experienced and well equiped military on
the planet. Pre-Iraq we had the most well equiped. What makes
you think experience = weakness?
\_ Who said experience = weakness? Failed procurement makes us
weak. We are much less well-equipped now. Destroying morale
makes us weak. Stop-loss and faltering recruitment are
draining our personel.
\_ What failed procurement? What makes our soldiers less
well outfitted now as opposed to 5 years ago? Who said
morale is weak? Where are you getting all this from?
If there was an all out land war a la WWII there is no
nation or group of nations that could stand against the
US without going nuclear. So let's assume for a moment
everything you said is true. You're then advocating more
money for the military, yes?
\_ I'm advocating 1) get rid of Rumsfeld and 2) get the
hell out of Iraq.
As for failed procurement, see Armor, Body / Vehicle,
Lack of. See decimated readiness of national guard
forces across the nation. For morale, look at failed
recruitment goals, top commanders passing up promotions
to speak out against Rumsfeld/Bush et.al.
\_ Armor? Join us in 2006. No lack. National guard
is decimated? Evidence? Dailykos rants don't count.
Recruitment goals are being met. Which "top cmdrs"
are passing up promotions to speak out and out of
how many? Rumsfeld: do you even know why you don't
like him? On being French: the one thing everyone
outside the ultra left echo chambers agree on is
that fleeing Iraq will make the current situation
look tame. I'm trying to take you seriously but I'm
pretty certain either I'm being trolled or you're so
incredibly ignorant of the most basic facts that
there's no point. Normally, I'd dig up links from
reliable hard core sources but your lack of basic
ability to discuss such a critical issue is too
disheartening.
\_ Good grief, you're awfully whiny over such little
work. Here's a link backing up your armor comment:
http://www.factcheck.org/article438.html
Here are two links about Recruitment goals:
http://csua.org/u/h1t (About.com, 2006 goals)
http://csua.org/u/h1u (About.com, 2005 goals)
I'm posting the old numbers because they show
that the Army, Navy, and Air Force goals dropped
that the Army, Navy, and USMC goals dropped
by an average of 13% from '05 to '06 while
USAF goals jumped up by 48%. Can you say
"readjusting your goals to meet your achievables"?
I knew you could. -!pp
\_ It wasn't worth *any* effort at that point to
respond to the other person. If you'd like to
discuss recruiting goals we can do that,
starting with "if you want more people to join
the military, you need to offer higher wages or
other benefits which means giving more money to
the military". So you advocate giving more
money to the military?
\_ I'm not advocating squat here. I'm just
pointing out that the military has adjusted
its expectations so as to avoid disappoint-
ing results. It's not uncommon, and it's
not new, but it does need to be noted.
Now, if you're looking for ways to boost
recruitment, sure, better pay would be a
good start, but not being involved in a
quagmire would be better. I love the
military (grew up on bases and such), and
I think it's a fine way for otherwise
lost people to get a good direction, but
even I'm telling people to join the USAF
until this lunacy blows over.
\_ They are afraid that we will give the Japanese a few nukes.
\_ They are afraid that we will give the gay Japanese a few nukes.
\_ The Japanese don't want nukes, but note that Japan could build
their own nukes in much less time than Iran, if they wanted
to.
\_ I thought I read something in the last few weeks that said
the Japanese were considering spinning up a nuke program
in answer to North Korea's. Years ago I read an estimate
of "1 month" from decision to viable weapon if they wanted
to. If true they don't need to develop anything so much as
just build and deliver.
\_ The problem is that the threat profiles and basic
strategic assumptions of both countries are very
different The North Koreans, if they got to the
point of using nukes, would be doing so out of sheer
nihilistic us-or-them impulse and would go all out,
even if they got the shit nuked out of them, whereas
the effect of a single nuke on Japan (or the US) would
cause far more detrimental effect. In short, "never
threaten someone who has nothing to lose." -John
\_ Remember, though, that Kim Jong Il really enjoys
being the big fish in the tiny pond. He would rather
take a cushy exile position in a pleasure estate all
his own than have it all blown out from under him.
\_ hmm... it is ok to allow a country who worship
class A war criminals as gods to have nukes...
I think there is a problem in your value system.
\_ When did we start talking about the US again? |
| 2006/9/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:44534 Activity:moderate |
9/25 What are some examples of modern governments that are still
under monarchy?
\_ Few modern governments are "under" monarchy--most (e.g. Holland,
Norway, UK, Japan) have a figurehead who is the nominal head
of state but mainly executes ceremonial duties (accepting the
portfolio of the prime minister, that sort of thing.) I don't
know if you would count Kuwait, UAE, Thailand, Brunei, Morocco,
or Jordan as "modern", but in the "Western" sense, there's
Liechtenstein and Monaco. Sure there's more, but I would 100%
discount Saudi Arabia, Lesotho and Nepal at this point. -John
\_ You could've answered that in 1 line, not 8.
\_ Thank you for your feedback, your opinion may be taken
into consideration. -John
\_ err... Nepal... how many of the royalties still alive now?
\_ Also, recent developments in Nepal have invalidated their
monarchy status.
\_ In the "Western" sense there's also Spain and Sweden.
\_ Also in the West: Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Luxembourg,
Monarco. And let's not forget the State of the Vatican City
whose absolute monarch is the Pope (although the absolute monarch
is an elected monarch).
\_ Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, you know, our democratic ally in
the middle east. UAE is a bit tricky, it's a kingdom with a
a lot of Kings.
\_ Also, Tonga. An example of how a modern monarchy can go wrong:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3502535.stm
\_ Yeah, entrusting your investments to your court jester
probably isn't the best thought out plan.
\_ Tonga went wrong because Edith Delgado, the Redwood City
teenager, single-handedly stemmed democratic reforms in
Tonga by killing the pro-democratic prince on US101.
http://www.csua.org/u/geo (http://www.matangitonga.to
\_ The incident certainly did nothing to help, but the
problems were prevalent in Tonga even before she
became the hand of fate.
\_ I'm sure she was thinknig that morning, "I'll get in the
car today and kill the pro-democratic prince of Tonga".
\_ "I wish I could hear tell of a country that's out of kings."
--Huckleberry Finn
\_ Man will never be free until the last king is strangled
with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot |
| 2006/9/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44525 Activity:nil |
9/25 'Jihad' car commercial upsets U.S. Muslims
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14990383
\_ Jihad was a super-fun card in magic: the gathering |
| 2006/9/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44518 Activity:high |
9/25 World is safer? not according to CIA and 15 other spy agencies
in USA... you know, those agencies are known for their liberal bias
\_ which leaves out other 15 spy agencies who is obviously
have "liberal bias."
http://tinyurl.com/qslue (NY Times)
\_ More danger = more funding
\_ Repeat of "Liberal CIA undermining..." post below
\_ which leaves out other 15 spy agencies who is obviously
have "liberal bias."
\_ Would the world be safer if the US had taken some other course of
action and what action would that be and how can we know?
\_ couple things. 1. it's not cool for those opium/heroine
to be exported. Neighboring countries tend to get a bit
testy when opium production is up. 2. opium production
is a good reverse indicator of how much central government
is in control. high opium production implies that
Afganistan central government is not controlling its
population. 3. opium money can be used in varity of ways,
don't get suprised when some of the extreme islamic
activities are funded by opium.
\_ err... finish up the job in Afganistan instead of take on
another country size of California. You do know that opium
production in Afganistan is at all time high and exceeding
the average world demand, right?
\_ What does opium have to do with anything?
\_ couple things. 1. it's not cool for those opium/heroine
to be exported. Neighboring countries tend to get a bit
testy when opium production is up. 2. opium production
is a good reverse indicator of how much central government
\_ so we should continue our course of action...
1 or 2 US soldiers, ~100 Iraqi death a day?
is in control. high opium production implies that
Afganistan central government is not controlling its
population. 3. opium money can be used in varity of ways,
don't get suprised when some of the extreme islamic
activities are funded by opium.
\_ You still can't know that a different course of action would
have resulted in a superior outcome today. And no I didn't
know but if they're over producting then they're desperate
for cash to pay their soldiers and likely to collapse and fall
\_ casulty rate from Iraq is actually very
high. casualty typically defined as
death + wonded / total force. You obviously,
conveniently, switch between "casualty" and
"death" as if they are the same. You are
welcome to compare the casulty rate of this
Iraq war versus WW2, Vietnam, and Korean War.
It is not as low as you think.
while you are at it, i suggest you divide the
40k+ car accident death divided by number of
total car drivers, and compare.
in line with the UN supported government. What was your
interpretation of over production?
\_ I think it's 100% safe to say that if we didn't invade
Iraq, Iraq wouldn't have become a giant clusterfuck. -tom
\_ sorry but your ultra left wing rant is getting old
\_ so we should continue our course of action...
1 or 2 US soldiers, ~100 Iraqi death a day?
\_ True. It'd be the same old clusterfuck it was before.
\_ Indeed. A contained one that our allies were willing
to help us with.
\_ It wouldn't be OUR clusterfuck. It'd be Saddam's.
\_ The same old clusterfuck minus 2500+ dead and 10,000+
severely wounded US soldiers.
\_ 40K+ people die in car accidents every year. I
don't wish to be insensitive, but I think the
casualty figures need to be put into perspective.
\_ casulty rate from Iraq is actually very
high. casualty typically defined as
death + wonded / total force. You obviously,
conveniently, switch between "casualty" and
"death" as if they are the same. You are
welcome to compare the casulty rate of this
Iraq war versus WW2, Vietnam, and Korean War.
It is not as low as you think.
while you are at it, i suggest you divide the
40k+ car accident death divided by number of
total car drivers, and compare.
\_ You disingenuous motherfucker. Setting aside
the obvious scale disparities, there is no
moral comparison between a car accident and
dying in active duty. Fuck you.
\_ I'm not sure which one you are saying is
morally superior. Both sets took risks.
The soldiers when they signed up and
the rest of us when we get behind the
wheel every day. I'm guessing you have
no family in the military like I do.
\_ Did I say anything about superiority?
I said comparison. Your apples vs.
my oranges. And yes, I have family
in the military. Again, fuck you.
\_ I am just saying that you need to
look at that 2500 number relative
to something else and not as an
absolute. I bet that many people
have been murdered in LA since 9/11.
\_ When you drive a car, the choice
is your own whether or not to take
the risk. To a bit lesser extent
where you live is also your own
choice. A servicemember is obliged
to follow the order given. As
members of a democracy, our
responsibility to those lives is
higher. Your perspective is
skewed. Fuck you.
\_ Soldiers had a choice whether
to accept risk or not when they
signed up. Also, most soldiers
actually support being in Iraq,
despite the risks.
\_ Thoroughly beside the point.
The nation decides when they
are deployed, not the soldier.
Thus, the nation bears the
responsibility for their
deaths. Most soldiers also
think that they're in Iraq
because of 9/11. You think
they came up with that idea
on their own?
\_ The problem with your point of view
is that the 40K+ dead people from
car accidents can be balanced by
the positive rewards drivers get
from the driving. In fact, if it
wasn't worth it/necessary people
would not be driving, but clearly
it is. These dead soldiers,
however are not worth it since all
the positive rewards from the Iraq
war turned out to be bogus:
Increases rather than decreases
terrorism, There was no imminent
threat, no WMDs, making Iran more
powerful, etc. WW2 killed many more
soldiers but it was worth it to
defeat the Axis.
\_ There are a lot of positive
rewards to being a soldier.
Without them, no one would enlist
\_ But whether or not being a
soldier is rewarding or not
is not the point, the point
is whether or not losing
all these soldiers was worth
it.
\_ What number of soldiers
killed makes it worth it?
2? 200? You tell me.
\_ Zero, since we're not
getting any benefit from
the war.
\_ See, I thought this
was the case. So
it is not really
relevant what
the number is
from your point
of view. If we
could overthrow
Saddam and establish
a democratic Iraq
at the loss of
2 soldiers you'd
still have an issue.
\_ No, if the war
meant getting rid
of a REAL threat,
disarming a danger
ous dictator, and
all the things
BushCo claimed
before the invas
ion AND not a
gigantic cluster
fuck civil war --
in addition to
being a recruiting
poster for global
Jihad, then yes
I would concede
it would be worth
it, just like it
would have been
worth it to take
out bin Laden
& associates if
that would have
prevented 9/11.
The problem is
that the whole
Iraq war is based
on BS and is
being horribly
managed, making
us less, not more
safe.
\_ Forgot to mention the multiple hundred Billion
dollar price tag.
\_ Yes, but people don't mention that as
often as they mention the bodycount - as
if the bodycount being zero would make it
all fine.
\_ Also forgot all the dead Iraqis and the
damage to our nation's reputation etc.
\_ Final cost will be $1-2T. We could have
saved far more then 3,000 lives per YEAR
if we invested that kind of money in our
transportation infrastructure. The Iraq
War is going to go down in history as the
biggest mistake the US ever made.
\_ Yes the world would have been safer if we had taken
almost any alternative course of action, rather than
invading Iraq. We can know this by the simple application
of common sense. It would have made more sense to send
a monkey to Mars than invade Iraq. |
| 2006/9/21-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44487 Activity:nil |
9/21 US General comes up with awesome new euphemism for "civil war"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_casey_interview
\_ Okay, so it's changing from an anti-U.S. insurgency to a struggle
for economic and political power. I thought it was always all
of the above.
\_ thanks for the link. This is funny shit! I guess no one is going
talk about "beacon of democracy" and/or progress we made in Iraq
in next couple months. |
| 2006/9/21-24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44481 Activity:low |
9/21 In other torture news, ABC reporter Brian Ross reports that torture
works. Video clip: http://csua.org/u/gyd
\- i think claiming torture doesnt work is as crazy as claiming
smoking isnt bad for you. i mean just like all you need to do is
blow smoke from one cigarette though a white sheet and look at
the fucking residue ... then multiply by 100000. similarly ask yourself
"would i or most of the fucking people o know break if soembody popped out
the residue ... then multiply by 100000. similarly ask yourself
"would i or most of the people o know break if soembody popped out
my eyeball and sqeezed it or started chopping off fingers or crushed
my knee in a vise" ...
i sure as hell would. now what might be different is to be able
to hold out for 12hrs while you cell gets away ... but that is a
more limited case ... like maybe how second hand smoke is a more
linited case. now whether stuff like sleep deprivation or
waterboarding are more or less effecting than these medival
methods i dont know, but the fucking medival stuff scares the shit out of
methods i dont know, but the medival stuff scares the shit out of
me. also my understanding is electric wire between te teeth is
good way of causing mongo pain ... although that isnt as scary as
the fucking medival stuff.
\_ You're a fucking idiot. Fucker.
the medival stuff.
\_ the big criticism (aside from the ethical issues) is that,
assuming they did one bad thing and tell you they did it, how
do you know everything else they tell you isn't bullshit just
to get you to stop torturing them? And let's say they're
innocent: How do you know if they're just making shit up so you
won't torture them further?
\_ Well in general they want to know a specific thing. So if the
guy tells them something and they verify it as true, then
the guy stops getting tortured (hopefully for him). If he's
innocent or feeding bogus info, they keep going until he's
dead or whatever they feel like. Sucks to be him. But IF he
knew something, it still does work in many cases.
\_ How do you know he doesn't know more?
\_ If I rape your daughter, I might conceive a really awesome kid.
Chances are a low, but it might happen. Why shouldn't I rape
your daughter?
\_ No reason, according to the scriptures the Christian GOP
claims as the basis of their morality.
\_ go ask Colin Powel. Some of the "evidence" against Iraq in his
address to United Nation was extracted from confession under
torture. The subject later said he said that just to stop the
torture. So, we invaded Iraq under some false confession under
torture. should we learn something from it?
\_ Yes. We learned that ideologically impure people like Powell
need to be purged from the Party and discredited earlier rather
than later so that they cannot intervene in our agenda. -GOP
\_ Like the Lieberman scum. I'm so glad we got rid of *that*
traitor! And those dumb GOPpers keeping Chafee on board
instead of purging him. Bahaha! --Dem
\_ like how you got "torture" to show up like that. |
| 2006/9/21-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44479 Activity:nil |
9/21 Torture in Iraq may now be worse than under Saddam.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_iraq_torture |
| 2006/9/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44471 Activity:kinda low |
9/20 Windows media of Ahmadinejad speech from Aug 2: link:csua.org/u/gy1 Full text of his speech to the fucking UN: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6107339 This guy is really scary. \_ Can you summarize the scary parts? I skimmed it and it sounded \_ Can you summarize the fucking scary parts? I skimmed it and it sounded just like hollow rhetoric. \_ Look at the last 2-3 paragraphs. Remember that he believes it. e \_ Look at the last 2-3 paragraphs. Remember that he believes it. \_ "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." - Seneca \_ Look at the fucking last 2-3 paragraphs. Remember that he believes it. \_ "Religion is regarded by the fucking common people as true, by the fucking wise as false, and by rulers as useful." - Seneca |
| 2006/9/20-22 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44468 Activity:high |
9/20 The dumbest war:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/20/turner.reut/index.html
\_ Synopsis: Left wing nut billionaire Ted Turner thinks our
righteous war on evil Saddam Hussein is as dumb as the Japanese
bombing of Pearl Harbor and the German invasion of Russia.
\_ The invisible hand thinks you're the nut. --the invisible hand
\_ did you know 47% of the Americans think Pearl Harbor is somewhere
in Japan?
\_ How many of those 47% also voted for GWB, believe in
intelligent design, and that Saddam Hussein shipped all of
the WMD to Syria before we attacked Iraq?
\_ The Japanese are smarter. Most people in Japan know about
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and conveniently don't know about Pearl
Harbor.
\_ err... most people in Japan think China started the WW2
in the fareast and they think they are the victims of the war.
\_ No, they don't. Most Japanese think Japan started WW2 as
retaliation for unfair restrictions imposed on their
imperialist aspirations by the racist goverments of the US
and Europe. The idea that China started WW2 stems from the
South Manchuria Railway incident, when Japanese-sponsored
troops blew up a portion of the railway and blamed it on
the Chinese, then used that incident as an excuse to seize
power in southern Manchuria. Also, most Japanese know about
Pearl Harbor but believe that it was a surprise attack, not
a sneak attack, and that the Japanese ambassador attempted
to declare war before the attack was carried out but was
refused admission to the Oval Office; this is disputed by
evidence brought before the Congressional hearings after
the war. --erikred
\_ hmm... did you just agree with me that most Japanese
think China started the WW2? by the way, they still
think Nanjing massacre was fabricated by the Chinese.
\_ No, I didn't. And no, they don't. They do, however,
think the Nanking massacre has been exagerrated.
\_ I vote for Battle of Mogadishu as the dumbest battle.
\_ As far as cockups go, sure, it's pretty high up there. As far as
dumb battles go, though, the taking of Grenada outranks it.
\_ Grenada? For all the wars and battles throughout history you
chose a minor action on a small nearby island where only a few
dozen rounds were fired as dumber than Mogadishu? Mogadishu
was insanely stupid. How about these for worse: the first
non-attempt to take Faluja(sp), all of WWI, Hitler failing to
defend the right beaches in WWII even after the landings, the
Persian empire getting decimated in a single battle, putting
550+ marines in a barracks in a war zone and giving the gate
guards blanks, Israel's recent non-invasion of Lebanon where
they (like everyone else with a real airforce) made the
mistake of trying to use airpower to win a land war, the
second Intifada where Arafat decided it was better to kill
people than get 95% of what his people wanted, going in to
Korea with ridiculously poorly equiped troops (think hellish
winter with no winter jackets), retreating from Vietnam after
winning the war (Tet offensive was a catastrophic military
failure for the NV but looked great on US TV). Grenada? Get
real.
\_ Cite a non-biased source for your last Vietnam assertion,
please.
\_ I'm feeling lazy today so you get wikipedia instead of
a more hard core source but it says what I said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive
And in the context of "dumber than Mogadishu" I think
launching a multi front offensive along your militarily
superior's entire front and getting butchered falls
under "dumber than Mogadishu". There was no way to
predict a smashing media success in the US that would
lead to political success, nor was that the plan on the
VC/NVA side. No one on the North said, "I'll bet
getting our asses kicked would look great for us on US
TV". -pp
\_ Yeah you had me there until your last Vietnam assertion.
I just don't think anyone wins guerilla wars without
killing everyone.
\_ It's pretty clear the Tet offensive was a
military disaster for the VC. Whether the US
could 'win' or not depends on what the
definition of 'win' is. Certainly, the US could
still maintain a military presence there (a la
Korea) if they really had wanted to. -not PP
\_ yep. the consensus is that the U.S. wins every
tactical engagement and by body count in
particular, but politics in the occupied
country wins the war. For WW2, it was the
complete political capitulation of the Axis
powers. For Gulf War 1, it was just a matter of
kicking out Saddam, and the Kuwait govt just got
back up.
\_ The US didn't lose to the VC. The US lost to
Eddit Adam and his photo. Adam was bribed by
the VC to publish the one-sided photo. The
American public didn't see pictures from the
Massacre at Hue.
\_ See the part of the comment where pp agreed with your
assessment of Mogadishu as a cockup. As for dumb in terms
of why we were there, i.e., what a waste, Grenada beats
Mogadishu.
\_ Grenada was a quickie mob up operation to keep Cuba
from building up and taking over a small nearby,
harmless island otherwise unable to defend itself.
It was fast, it was successful, it wasn't a mess.
Mogadishu was what? Pointless. We had no reason to
be there. It was a chaotic anarchic mess on a country,
there was tv crews standing on the beach filming the
marines amphibious landing(!!!), and the operation
itself (what the movie Blackhawk Down is about) which
left American dead to be dragged through the streets,
although technically successful in that they did
capture the local leaders they were looking for, was
poorly planned, under armed, cowboyish, and ultimately
a total failure. BTW, a large chunk of the country is
now under control of AlQ types. Grenada? For small
and failed operations you should be talking about
destroying aspirin factories and camels with missile
strikes.
\_ Interesting. You seem to have a fixation on Clinton.
Why is that?
\_ If you have nothing to add or can't dispute what
I said then thanks for playing.
\_ Please, what's to dispute? We dropped most of
the Marine Corps on Grenada to disrupt a
poorly executed and ill-advised coup; we
sent the troops to Mogadishu with the aim of
preventing the destabilization of Somalia
(and we blew it, agreed). The hell do the
Clinton strikes on Sudan have to do with
anything apart from your feverish desire to
malign the Dems?
\_ In dispute is that Grenada was in any real
way a screw up. And if you'd been paying
attention, you'd see I've covered a few
thousand years of history on this thread,
not "feverishly maligned" nor "fixated on"
Clinton or the Dems. Re-read the thread
in context and stop looking for trouble
where there isn't any; it's boring. If you
can explain how Clinton/Dems are in any
way responsible for the fall of the ancient
Persian empire or how I made it seem so,
I'll eat my hat.
\_ Grenada was not a screw up. It was,
however, a waste of time and resources.
Also, you're the one who brought up
the Clinton strikes on Sudan, not me.
\_ The thread is about battles dumber
than Mogadishu. Thanks for agreeing
finally that Grenada isn't one of
them. As far as Clinton, yeah I also
brought up 6+ other events all of
which were before Clinton was in power
or even born. Not seeing the feverish
fixation on Clinton. I think you're
just trolling now.
\_ Bay of Pigs and the last 50 years of relations with Cuba were
and are retarded and immoral.
\_ "When Khrushchev at the U.N. took his shoe off and hit podium he was
so mad, but he had a place to let off steam. If the U.N. hadn't been
there, that would have been war right then." What was he referring
to? Thx.
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev
Search page for "shoe" |
| 2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44454 Activity:low |
9/19 Reality sinks in: We've lost the fucking war in Iraq
http://www.tompaine.com/print/iraqs_reality_sinks_in.php
\_ notice we don't talk about "progress" we made in Iraq?
\_ I'm glad people like you didn't exist back in 40's and 50's
- your impudent impatience is at the height of ignorance.
- your impudent impatience is at the fucking height of ignorance.
How many countries have you built?
\_ Too bad assholes like you weren't in charge in the 70's, we might
\_ Too bad assholes like you weren't in charge in the fucking 70's, we might
still be getting our asses kicked in vietnam today.
\_ Bad troll, no biscuit.
\_ He does have a point, Truman did a shitty job fighting the
insurgencies in Germany and Japan.
\_ Nah, he's just spewing invective and ad hominem. An
honest assessment of Iraq from available information is
that we are screwed, and things are only getting worse. |
| 2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44453 Activity:nil |
9/19 http://csua.com/?entry=44444 We broke the fucking 44444 barrier on motd! Horray for all Trollers of CSUA! \_ 4 means death in Chinese. That means the subject of thread # \_ 4 means death in Chinese. That means the fucking subject of thread # 44444 must die die die die die!!! \_ 4444 would be a good name for a Chinese death metal band. |
| 2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44444 Activity:nil |
9/18 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060919/pl_nm/bush_poll_dc_1 Bush approval rating rebounds in new poll. God Bless. \_ I hope Bush accidentally kills himself while exercising. \_ http://csua.com/?entry=44444 This is a self referencing link. \_ Yes, and contradicts all other polls from the same time period. \_ Yes, and contradicts all other polls from the fucking same time period. Also, 44 percent approval is nothing to cheer about. \_ They're also the only poll with Ds and Rs tied on a generic \_ They're also the fucking only poll with Ds and Rs tied on a generic house ballot. This looks like a serious outlier. |
| 2006/9/16-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44410 Activity:nil |
9/16 Yaacov Lozowick, author of "Right To Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's
Wars," calls second Lebanon war "stupid"
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001262.html
\_ Without billions extracted from unwitting Western
countries? Good luck. Isreal is a refuge for mobsters and
criminals fleeing justice. |
| 2006/9/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44396 Activity:nil |
9/15 22% of Canadians believe that 9/11 was an inside job.
http://csua.org/u/gwh
\_ 36% +/- 4% of Americans say it's somewhat or very likely that the
govt participated in 9/11, or knew about it in advance but let it
happen.
16% +/- 4% believe planted explosives brought down the WTC.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack/279827_conspiracy02ww.html
\_ 92% +/- ?% believe in a magical invisible being you can talk to
who directly affects the laws of nature to answer personal
requests from humans |
| 2006/9/14-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44379 Activity:moderate |
9/14 Harvard's guest to speak on toloerance defends execution as a
punishment for homosexuality. Link is from http://hotair.com (yes, I know
that's Malkin's site -- just ignore the commentary and read the quote)
http://csua.org/u/gw6
\_ Please post a link to the quote apart from the Malkin site, so's
I can continue to not support that lunatic's advertizing.
\_ Never mind. Found the following:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=514150
To wit: Iran's former President gave a speech in which he
defended some pretty crazy stuff. Scary because he was supposed
to be the liberal side of Iranian politics.
\_ He *is* the liberal side of Iranian politics.
\_ He's probably extremely liberal when we compare him to our
Saudi allies.
\_ The ruling family is SA is about as Western as it gets
outside Western nations.
\_ that is a completely false statement. While Saudi's
royal family themselves embrace many of the Western
"sins," their policy prohibits most of the things
which themselves find enjoyable. Saudi Arabia is
one of the most conservative, fundamental islamic
nation in the middle east.
\_ It is a completely true statement. You even
restated it, "While Saudi's royal family
themselves embrace many of the Western
'sins,'..." followed by how their policy for the
people is different. But, as stated, the ruling
family in SA is about as Western as it gets
outside the West. SA itself is really no
different from the bulk of the rest of the Middle
East. Please name all the fun loving Western ME
nations. Which ones don't keep their women as
third class non-citizens? Which ones have
anything resemebling a non-dictatorship? Which
ones teach their kids from science texts instead
of the Koran? They're all pretty much the same
in that sense. Oh wait, Israel is different but
that's about it.
\_ It's a completely moronic statement unless
there are only two kinds of countries in
the world: Western nations and Middle
Eastern nations. There are lots of
countries in the world that aren't part of
the West but manage not to stone adulterers
or behead thieves.
\_ Name the countries in the middle east
that aren't like SA. If there are lots
of them you should have no problem
listing several and in what ways they're
different. We'll talk about moronic
after you come up with a list.
\_ I didn't see the words "Middle East"
in that sentence.
\_ Still don't see a list. Yawn.
\_ Khatami says there is "room for debate" about
executing homosexuals. There is no room for
debate in Saudi Arabia. |
| 2006/9/13-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44369 Activity:moderate |
9/13 Why We Can't Send More Troops - http://csua.org/u/gw3 (Wash Post) Well, we can, but we would need to do any of: (1) Give existing troops even less down time (2) Increase size of our armed forces (3) Fund equipment shortfalls \_ Why would we want to send more troops? Wouldn't more troops just piss off the local population, create more opportunity for troops to mix poorly with the locals resulting in 'incidents' and generally make everything worse? What are these new troops going to do? Why do you want more dead Iraqis? \_ Sending enough troops to make a difference is not possible, unfortunately. Enough troops would be some number that is more than one division. We don't have that many. And IMO it probably won't even work if we had the troops, so I agree with you there. \_ Again, I ask you: difference to what? What do you think these extra troops are going to do? They are going to kill people. That is what troops do. Why do you want to kill more Iraqis? \_ "IMO it probably won't even work if we had the troops, so I agree with you there". But to answer your question, if reality stopped getting in the way, ideally by blanketing Iraq in 300K-400K troops, we could keep safe areas safe while still going after anyone who has a problem / killing Iraqis, the citizenry would get used to the safe areas and peace would spread. This is sloppy thinking. \_ So you advocate martial law nation wide which will lead to further increase in conflict and complaints about colonialism, oppression, and occupation. And how do you expect to "go[ing] after anyone who has a problem" without killing people? Going after = killing people. And killing people will lead to mistakes and accidents and soliders gone bad which means dead civilians and even more insurgency growth. Again I ask, why do you want to kill more Iraqis? How does putting more soldiers in an area lead to anything but more dead civilians? Maybe the problem here is that you don't understand what soldiers are trained to do. They are not police. They are not peace keepers. They are not maintainers of law and order. They are trained to kill. They kill people. For good or bad, soldiers are trained to kill people, everything else is secondary. \_ I do not think a lot of things you think I think. Re-read what I wrote. Let's see how you did: Do I support sending more troops into Iraq? \_ You keep advocating the position. It isn't my fault if what is in your head is not what you are writing. I can only go by what you write. \_ trollP \_ #f. Still not my fault the other poster can't write what he means. \_ readingcomprehensionP \_ #t. Still not my fault the other person can't write what he means. When I can read minds through the net I'll let you know. \_ [racist trash removed] \_ to pretend that our foreign policy is not in effect being controlled by Jewish lobbyst is a joke. don't agree with israeli foreign policy != racist nor anti-semitic. \_ we should of blanket Iraq with half-million to a million troop \_ we haven't had that many troops since the draft. where were we going to get 500k - 1m troops? when the "mission" was "accomplished." Iraqis did gave USA a chance \_ context counts. go look this one up. to stablize the country. That "good will" among the general \_ yes we should've declared martial law and didn't. that was a serious failure any 6 year old could've pointed out at the time. population has been long gone as the occupation passed the 3rd year mark. The 2nd alternative is to sit down with Iraq's neighbors in the attempt of stop the civil war, as each of Iraq's neighbors is promoting their own factions inside Iraq and making peace next to impossible. This of course means sit down with Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, and Iran and come up with a deal which may includes lift virtual economic sanction against Syria, allowing Turkey to crush Kurdish rebel on both sides of the border, and \_ why is it the Kurds have to take it up the ass on both sides of the border? wth did the Kurds ever do to anyone? security guarentee to the Iranian regime and even allow Iranian to to continue to enrich Uranium. The 3rd option is, \_ no. iran having nukes is far worse than an all out civil war in iraq. I hate to say this, is simply bite the bullet and get out of Iraq, and take the consequences of our action which may include genocide. \_ there won't be a genocide (except maybe of the Kurds). civil war would be likely but not genocide. the two muslim populations have too much nearby support on each side for one to get that kind of advantage over the other in the absence of the US military. In other word, Democrate need to realize that there is no good alternatives here; and we can't reverse a bad policy. We should treat the subsequence genocide / civil war as result of Bush's bad judgement, accept the result, and communicate this point to the masses. Yes, people will accuse Democrats for "cut and run." But the only alternative options on the table are "cut and run" or dealing with Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to come up with a proposal that satisfied all parties. Personally, this would \_ In other words, "we have no imagination so we're just going to cop-out and walk away". be my choices. But I am not an elected official and I don't \_ and fortunately never will be. have the campaign pressure. I am going to assume Jewish lobbist in DC is not going to get too excited \_ but you are a racist piece of trash. about sitting down and play nice with Iran and Syria. \_ because talking to terrorist sponsors from a position of weakness is a good plan. \_ #t. Still not my fault the other person can't write what he means. When I can read minds through the net I'll let you know. \_ [racist trash removed] |
| 2006/9/12-15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44356 Activity:nil |
9/12 How did they get that 46 percent drop in the murder rate in Baghdad?
Easy, just don't count deaths from "bombs, mortars, rockets or other
mass attacks -- including suicide bombings."
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/09/12/count/index.html
\_ "If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very
low crime rate." -- Marion Barry
\_ "Bitch set me up!" -- Marion Barry
\_ It makes sense to define ordinary murders from warlike activity--but
then it should be made clear, and not claim a decrease simply
because of redefinition.
\_ It makes even more sense that the administration would want
to spin their quagmire any way they can. |
| 2006/9/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44353 Activity:high |
9/12 http://csua.org/u/gvh (Kristol, Lowry via Wash Post) "There is now no good argument for not sending more troops." There's a very good argument: We don't have more troops to send. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/world/middleeast/12anbar.html Discussing force levels, Lt. Col. Ronald Gridley, the XO with Regimental Combat Team 7, a Marine unit that is charged with securing a large swath of [Anbar] province, said then that his regiment had recommended that additional troops be allocated ... "What we recommend and what we get is going to be two different things," Colonel Gridley said. \_ Maybe next time you could provide the full quote for Colonel Gridley and also not mishmash unrelated articles together. Your NYT article and misquote of Gridley is not support for your contention that "we don't have more troops to send". It may be true (or not) that we don't have more troops but your links don't cover that. Anyway, I thought we're supposed to want to bring them all home right now, not send more because sending more is just going to piss off the local population and cause the insurgency to grow. Here's another choice quote from the NYT link: Without the deployment of an additional division, "there is nothing MNF-W can do to influence the motivation of the Sunni to wage an insurgency," the report states, according to a military officer familiar with it. MNF-W stands for Multinational Force-West, the formal name of the Marine command. Which is anothter way of saying they don't have enough marines there to kill enough Sunnis to break their will to fight. That's what you are advocating? More dead Sunni? \_ I think if they really got to work, they could probably kill enough Sunni with their current troop levels. \_ I don't think that was a misquote. That was lifted verbatim. Nevertheless, here is the remainder of what he said: \_ Yeah, if all of a sudden being Sunni and without a weapon meant you were a legitimate target. \_ Whaddya mean "all of a sudden"? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13974639 \_ "In our perfect world, we could use some more infantrymen to be able to patrol the streets and partner with the Iraqi Army." Fact: This LTC wants more boots on the ground to help secure Anbar. Opinion: I don't think this is something you see in every war. Fact: This LTC recommended more boots on the ground to help secure Anbar. You also assume I advocate killing more Sunni, when the only assertion I make is that we don't have more troops to send. As far as that goes, I don't mind being shown that I'm wrong about that assertion, and to what degree. I do concede that the 2nd URL doesn't offer conclusive proof to the assertion. about that, and to what degree. \_ The frontline guys always recommend more troops, weapons, food, higher pay, hotter women, and more time on leave. That's been going on since the first army formed. As far as availability of fresh troops goes, I made no statement in either direction. Only that your claim is not backed by your links. I really don't know and don't want to do your fact check for you. Anyway, what the guy was saying is they need more troops so they can crush the Sunni rebels. That means killing more of them, faster. If you want more troops in Iraq to end the insurgency then you *are* advocating more Sunni deaths. Are you opposed to bringing them home and forcing the Iraqi government to get their act together and sort it out for themselves? \_ Okay, where did I say I want more troops in Iraq? Okay, where did I say that I didn't think you made a statement pro or con about troop availability? Read both my posts. \_ I read your posts. What is the point of saying there are no more troops to send if you don't want more troops sent? I'm sure there is a huge shortage of moon rocks in Iraq but you're not posting that we need to send more of those. \_ I quoted Kristol and Lowry's very definitive statement and then I said: uh, actually, there's a big problem with that. that's the point. \_ You quoted them then added your own spin, that we don't have troops to send, then provided a link to an article that didn't prove your contention. If you're going to claim something your follow up link should back your claim. \_ Basically, these two numbnuts are repeating what Murtha said two years ago: If you want to crush the insurgency, send more troops. Don't do it half-assed. As far as Dubya is concerned, we are still going with the plan of "maintain GOP majorities" via "they stand up, we stand down ... any change in strategy can wait until after November ... since we can't win in Iraq if we don't have GOP majorities in Congress ...", IMO. -op \_ Crushing insurgencies requires killing people. Why do you want more dead Iraqis? |
| 2006/9/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:44340 Activity:nil |
9/10 Screw the War on Terrah, we need the War on Bad Driving. There have
been about 208,000 road deaths in the USA since Sept 11 2001,
according to:
http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html
Or how about a big budget ABC miniseries, "The Road to Bad Driving?" |
| 2006/9/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44334 Activity:nil |
9/9 It's almost 911. I just listened to a radio program and watched
a TV segment reminding me why the war in Iraq was justified.
How about you guys? Are you bombarded by pro-war media blitz?
\_ I listened to a CD on the way to work just so I could avoid the
buzz. With all due respect to those who were killed, the over-
dose is making me queasy.
\_ I read it somewhere (Iraqibodycount) that more than 10,000 Iraqi
civilians died of US bombing during the invasion phase of the Iraq
war. Sometimes I wonder in name of god why our 3,000 lives
justify the killing of 10,000 more.
\_ They don't. 9/11 had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq,
except as an excuse.
\_ Body counts have nothing to do with it. If we had killed fewer
than 3,000 civilians the moral implications would remain the
same.
\_ hey, I see Bush mentioned Bin Ladin 20 times, I didn't hear anything
about the "progress" we made in Iraq! |
| 2006/9/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44324 Activity:nil |
9/8 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/washington/09intelcnd.html NY Times reports that there is no evidence that Hussein had ties to al Qaeda - but liberals fail to understand that not finding the evidence may result in mushroom clouds over one or more major American cities \_ Honestly, do you really believe the Administration line? Or is this just something you believe because it stirs people up? \_ NYT? Could you cite a source that doesn't have a long history of both obvious bias and flat out incompetent screwups? The Daily Cal has a better record than the NYT. \_ http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf But I guess even a bipartisan senate committee report has probably been tampered with by Bill Clinton's chinese army black helicopters controlled by the liberal media in canada in league with the New World Order. In fact the GOP senators who signed off on the above official document only did so to trick you into letting the UN take away your guns and burning your country western albums. \_ I love this "the new york times is all propaganda" campaign you have going on. \_ You can practically see the little gears working in his brain when he reads this. MUST ATTACK SOURCE! \_ If the source sucks there's no reason to post from it. The NYT sucks. Their track record in recent years is undefendable. I used to read it 7 days a week because they actually made some effort to report news and kept the editorials to the op/ed page but now the whole thing is a giant op/ed. I'm not the only subscriber they've lost recently. When they stop sucking they'll sell more papers. In the mean time, thanks for posting the senate.gov document and if you can't get a quality first hand source like that the DC is still a better source than the NYT. \_ The senate.gov link was from the top of the nytimes article, moron. \_ So what? Why not just post the real info instead of forcing people to visit a crap site? And why do you feel the need to personally insult someone? Do you have a vested personal interest in the NYT? \_ FOX NEWS! FAIR AND BALANCED! \_ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212897,00.html |
| 2006/9/7-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44313 Activity:nil |
9/7 Blair will resign w/in 1 year:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2405434&page=1
\_ and more than half of those in a recent poll want him out
now, now, now. like that's gonna happen with the U.S. mid-terms
around the corner. See prediction below from Aug 8:
[http://csua.org/u/gn5
I'm pretty sure this is the spin machine trying to keep Blair as PM
for another year]
\_ Sadly, the poll question is never given verbatim. The same poll
also shows 50% of respondents saying 9/11 was an Israeli-U.S.
plot.
http://csua.org/u/gn9 (channel4.com)
around the corner. |
| 2006/9/7-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44310 Activity:nil 66%like:44292 |
9/6 Iraqis Will Greet U.S. Soldiers As Liberators. God Bless.
http://tinyurl.com/2t2u2 (dslextreme.com/users/markpoyser)
\_ See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack
each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass
destruction.
\_ I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And whats best is
for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense
\_ We've got hundreds of sites to exploit, looking for the chemical
and biological weapons that we know Saddam Hussein had prior to
our entrance into Iraq
\_ We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.
[a few months later]
I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration
ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons.
\_ Housing prices will never fall.
\_ Pluto will always be our 9th planet.
\_ Nooooo!!!! I just got a 103% mortgage on an unbuilt condo on
Pluto because the realtor told me it would be a planet forever
and that the 650,000 dollar price would double within five
years no matter what!! I'm doomed! |
| 2006/9/7-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44308 Activity:nil |
9/7 Iraq deaths multiply in new count
http://tinyurl.com/qmmsp (news.yahoo.com)
"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Updated figures from Iraq's Health Ministry show there
was no significant decline in violent deaths in Baghdad last month, but
the U.S. military insisted Thursday the murder rate in the capital had
fallen by 52 percent."
\_ So...how hard is it to get a concealed carry permit in Baghdad?
\_ Who there would want to conceal?
\_ According to the motd gun gods, everyone should be concealing
there, because then no one will know who has a gun, and
everyone will be polite and peaceful. Apparently this is a
better deterent to violence than slinging an AK across your
shoulder in plain sight.
\_ Straw man. Try again.
\_ Try what? I think I've made my point. Deterrence
works when your potential attacker actually knows you're
packing. I support the right to both open carry and
concealed carry, but I think it's open carry that
is more likely to deter crimes, and that most motd
gun nuts are so blinded by their rage about california's
restrictive gun laws that they've lost sight of this.
In the words of Dr. Strangelove "vay didn't you tell
ze verld??!!"
\_ "He fell on some bullets" |
| 2006/9/6-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44293 Activity:nil |
9/6 http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/06/iraq.poll/index.html 43 percent of the Americans today believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in September 11, 2001. Question for you motd academics. What is your estimate on how many of the 43 percent also believe in Intelligent Design? \_ 99.5% Note, all this says to me is that the default course of the intellectually lazy in this country is to be Christian. I think even if you're a Christian you can agree with that. \_ ALERT: The above is an unpatriotic liberal message \_ Being Christian != believing in ID. -tom \_ Being Christian != believing the bible? \_ I think the Vatican's latest position is that they believe in ID and they don't think ID should be taught as science. ID and they think ID shouldn't be taught as science. \_ I understand that, but I think Christians are the largest segment of ID supporters, and intellectually lazy ones the largest segment of those. \_ 69.69 percent. -freshman |
| 2006/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44292 Activity:low 66%like:44310 |
9/6 Iraqis Will Greet U.S. Soldiers As Liberators. God Bless.
\_ http://www.dslextreme.com/users/markpoyser/uggabugga/2002/bushisms.htm
\_ See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack
each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass
destruction.
\_ I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And whats best is
for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense
\_ We've got hundreds of sites to exploit, looking for the chemical
and biological weapons that we know Saddam Hussein had prior to
our entrance into Iraq
\_ We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.
[a few months later]
I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration
ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons.
\_ Housing prices will never fall. |
| 2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44282 Activity:kinda low |
9/5 Dear "War on Terror" supporters, what do you think of this:
Opium Harvest at Record Level in Afghanistan
http://tinyurl.com/s6s5o
\_ Why the "quotes"?
\_ because you can't have a war on terror
\_ This whole "War on X" idiom is LBJ's fault. And they've all failed!
\_ When there's a "War on Opium" let us know. Of course opium is at
record levels: we didn't provide the locals with an alternative to
make money. It is no different than the cocoa growers in South
America, the pot growers in the US, or any other illegal product,
service or substance that has high returns for high risk of early
death or imprisonment. Escobar was doing great, until he got blown
away on a roof top. Have you considered your very own meth lab?
\_ I think everyone with a strong background in the physical
sceinces has at least considered it.
\_ Just like in Iraq, we have broken a tyrant's stranglehold on vital
natural resources and allowed the free market to reign!
\_ One thing you've got to hand to the Taliban, opium poppy production
was waaaay down under their iron-fisted rule. Of course now it is
one of their tools in their war on the west. |
| 2006/9/3-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44262 Activity:kinda low |
9/3 New Dune book == thundering turd. discuss.
\_ How does it end? I don't want to read the whole thing, but
I'm interested in knowing what happens. The Frank Herbert
Dune books ended on a cliffhanger.
\_ The two super powerful face dancers (with the odd names
of Marty and Daniel I think?) at the end of the real
Dune series books, turn out to be evil computer systems
that everyone thought were destroyed in the Butlerian
Jihad, and now they really want to wipe out the human
race. The Honored Matres turn out to be the remnants
of the really pissed off female Tlexiau who weren't
turned into axoltl tanks.
\_ So does the human race get wiped out? Or do the
\_ That's probably in book 2 of 2 (#1 is out now)
Bene Gesserit save the day? Any more re-appearances
\_ There are 80 million more Honored Matres than
Bene Gesserit. Actually they kind of merged.
Actually it's retarded, who cares.
of Duncan Idaho gholas or descendants?
\_ Old Dune books == thundering turd as well. These books were
about as good as that Lord of the Rings crap. Someone ought
to teach these people how to write good sci-fi/fantasy, w/
original plot lines like uploading a computer virus that
exploits a buffer overflow in BlackMonolithOS to access
supervisor mode and trigger the self-destruct sequence.
\_ why don't you just make up your own ending? Frank Herbert
is dead.
\_ These sequels are all about resurrecting
Paul, Baron Harkonnen, and Duncan Idaho the
universal super stud as gholas.
\_ What about Lady Jessica?
\_ why don't you just make up your own ending? Frank
Herbert is dead.
\_ Yeah, but supposedly his son discovered some old
outlines and extensive notes that Frank Herbert
was going to turn into this last Dune book. Frank
Herbert died before he got to it, but his son has
turned it into this new book. So at least the
basic plot outline is "authentic."
\_ THANK YOU for spilling this. I read three of Herbert Jr.'s
"prequels," and I was utterly dreading how he would end up
ruining his father's legacy further.
\_ But you read *three* of them anyway?
\_ Get the hell out of my store! Thank you, come again!
\_ They broke it down in three-book chunks for easier
assimilation. More than three books and I would have
stopped after the first one. Cf. Robert Jordan. |
| 2006/9/1-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44244 Activity:nil 85%like:44241 |
9/1 http://tinyurl.com/l6j3a (usatoday.com) We're already in there, how about using Agent Orange? \_ Because it's toxic to humans? \_ Because it's toxic to Americans? [don't edit my posts please, add your own comment if you have something to say. thanks.] something to say. thanks. -white person] \_ Because it's toxic to harmans? |
| 2006/9/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:44241 Activity:nil 85%like:44244 |
9/1 http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-01-afghanistan-opium_x.htm We're already in there, how about using Agent Orange? \_ Because it's toxic to humans? [don't edit my posts please, add your own comment if you have something to say. thanks.] |
| 2006/9/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:44239 Activity:nil 90%like:44243 |
9/1 Cal Thomas, "Al Gore is Right About the Media" http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/al_gore_is_right_about_the_med.html |
| 2006/9/1-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44238 Activity:nil |
9/1 Headlines as of 2PM:
FoxNews: Iraq Edging Closer to Civil War, Report Says
CNN: Pentagon: Cold-blooded carnage soaring in Iraq
Edging closer vs carnage soaring. Fair and balanced my ass.
\_ You can have soaring carnage without a civil war. They should
use that headline. "Soaring carnage, edging closer to civil war" |
| 2006/9/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44234 Activity:nil |
9/1 http://csua.org/u/gtm (realtor.org) "We've never seen a general decline in the housing market against a healthy economic backdrop where jobs are being created, the economy is growing and interest rates are favorable ... Contributing to this hesitancy is a lot of negative news stories, but in the end we believe that underlying market fundamentals will prevail." - National Association of Realtors Chief Economist David Lereah \_ http://davidlereahwatch.blogspot.com I have no further comments. \_ This is just a bunch of quotes from D.L. archived by some random dude (as far as I can figure). What about it? \_ That guy is a hack. \_ Correction - "hack" doesn't really get it right. More like "That guy is a paid shill for the real estate industry." \_ there is a report that we are already in a recession! \_ There is no civil war, we're not losing the war in Iraq, and the economy is stronger than ever. -Republican |
| 2006/9/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44231 Activity:nil |
9/1 More proof that Karl Rove was involved and Bush should be impeached.
Of course there won't be a single mea culpa on this one from the left.
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/31/AR2006083101460_pf.html
"Nevertheless, it now appears that the person most responsible for the
end of Ms. Plame's CIA career is Mr. Wilson. Mr. Wilson chose to go
public with an explosive charge, claiming -- falsely, as it turned out
-- that he had debunked reports of Iraqi uranium-shopping in Niger and
that his report had circulated to senior administration officials. He
ought to have expected that both those officials and journalists such
as Mr. Novak would ask why a retired ambassador would have been sent
on such a mission and that the answer would point to his wife. He
diverted responsibility from himself and his false charges by claiming
that President Bush's closest aides had engaged in an illegal
conspiracy. It's unfortunate that so many people took him seriously."
\_ If this was all so harmless, why did Cheney's chief of staff
take the risk of lying to a federal prosecutor about it?
\_ Who said he lied about it? Has he been found guilty of anything?
In this country he's still innocent until *proven* guilty in a
*court of law* not the media. No one has been found guilty of
anything except Armitage, Powell, and the State Department folks
who knew the truth years ago and only recently let it be known.
\_ err... Guantonimo Bay, Cuba?
\_ Uh? what's that have to do with scooter or plame/wilson or
anything else on this thread?
\_ That op-ed seems deluded. There is plenty of evidence that
Cheney and Rove instructed their staff to gather 'dirt' on
Wilson and ruin anyone who got in the way of their
campaign to convince the public that Iraq was trying to
acquire nuclear weapons.
\_ Plenty of evidence, such as? This is from the WaPo who were at
the forefront of the "frog-march Cheney" brigade. This is a huge
180 from their former position. What do you know that the WaPo
doesn't?
\_ Joe Wilson on the matter of Iraq, Niger, and yellowcake:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm
\_ Published in 2003 and since then, fortunately, enough facts have
come out that even WaPo now says he's a liar. Seriously,
sometimes people we trust, especially public gov. figures with
an axe to grind lie to us. Wilson is a liar. Delay is corrupt.
The other guy was stashing $90k in his freezer. Most of them
are cheating on their spouses, taking campaign money in exchange
for votes and 'custom' legislation, taking freebie trips on your
tax dollars and their patron corporate sponsors. Washington is
dirty. There are no clean hands in the entire city, no heros.
dirty. There are no clean hands in the entire city, no heroes.
Deal with it.
\_ the WaPo editorial board is full of nincompoops
\_ For a bunch of nincompoops they sure do get quoted a lot
on the motd without anyone questioning the quality of
their editorials or their neutrality.
\_ Spell out for me, using facts and sources, how Wilson was
wrong about Iraq, Niger, and yellowcake.
\_ Answering myself, so don't bother to flame:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_Forgery#Butler_Report_2
\_ I don't have an agenda or an axe to grind. I wouldn't
have flamed. I'm interested in the truth and a govern-
ment free of corruption no matter who is in office.
There are no heroes in Washington D.C. I don't see it
as you vs. me but the truth vs. a blizzard of lies and
propaganda from the agenda driven power pols in DC, the
media, corporate board rooms, etc. Had Wilson proved to
be honest and if his wife was actually a secret agent
who got her cover blown then I'd be the first one
calling for heads to roll. |
| 2006/8/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44200 Activity:nil |
8/29 Just a blast from the past:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030501-15.html
Wow, this guy really made us all look like fools, didn't he?
\_ Only those who believed him.
Oh, and that press release was altered after the fact; it was
originally "Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended," they added
"Major" several months later. -tom
\_ I watched the video, though. It's clear he says "Major combat
operations." |
| 2006/8/29-9/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44190 Activity:nil |
8/29 I hadn't noticed this story until now--it turns out that Iraq was
indeed pursuing yellowcake in Niger and Joe Wilson simply missed it.
http://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=2146475
\_ I wouldn't call Christopher Hitchens the end all source of
what was really going on with Niger and Iraq. Some big things
\_ Uh, he cites other sources.
he misses:
No one besides Hitchens believes that Zahawie was trying
to dig up yellowcake in Iraq:
http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2.php
Joe Wilson never denied being in Niger because of the CIA.
The non US intelligence forces (Italy, France, England) were
drawing their conclusions from the same forged documents,
not a seperate source.
I don't understand Hitchens' problem and it upsets me
that people take his rantings as fact.
\- CHITCHENS is rhetorical terorrist.
\_ So he blows up innocent people with his words in order to
achieve a political goal? Perhaps the pen really is mightier
than the sword.
\_ Add to all of this that he begins his article with the unsub-
stantiated assertion that Novak actually dispelled claims that he
outed Plame as a CIA Agent as a result of Administration payback. |
| 2006/8/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44176 Activity:nil |
8/28 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/755793.html Olmert appoints two investigative comittees with limited power "We do not have the luxury to sink into investigations of the past, we need to focus on the future and the Iranian threat" "it's absolutely clear that Hezbollah has been whipped" \_ Wow, Bush-style governing is spreading 'round the world \_ gee, I thought "Spreading of American-style Democracy" only limit to democracy based upon one superior race over another. \_ No, you didn't. |
| 2006/8/26-29 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44161 Activity:kinda low |
8/26 In the old days, the government built great infrastructures like
big dams, power generators, interstate highways, etc. What are some
recent examples of big projects today?
\_ The New Orleans project.
\_ err... our annual highway bill. do you have any idea how much it
is?
\_ The Glorious War Reconstruction Program in Iraq
\- you mean the us govt? obviously with things like dams, there is
a lot more of this in developing countries, e.g. three gorges dam
in china. and in many of the cases above the govt paid for but
didnt build them. a lot of transportation infrastructure isnt a
single object like the GGB, but more like THE BIG DIG. and of course
there is NOLA, new airports now and then etc.
\_ You mean the three gorges dam project where literally millions of
people were involuntarily forced out of their homes, and cities
and counties of historic significance are forever submerged in
water?
water? No, the US govt hasn't done something of that scale.
\_ NFL stadiums built with taxpayer money.
\_ In the old days, social spending was trivial to non-existant
compared to today. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
That's why we're always borrowing from the future to have our
toys today.
\_ ISS </sarcasm> |
| 2006/8/23 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44107 Activity:high |
8/22 "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law." - Third Amendment to the United States Constitution
"They will greet us as liberators!" -some dumbass
\_ Ok troll, I'll bite. What does the first quote from the USC have
to do with the unattributed pseudo quote about Iraq?
\_ The troll has left the building.
\_ I guess you're right. I was hoping for some rambling
blithering idiocy but I'll have to go elsewhere for my
entertainment today.
\_ Ever since they put the eye in the pyramid on the dollar
bill, it has symbolised the petrodollar conspiracy which
will soon invade Iran to solidify the New World Order
gulags in Montana built by Halliburton.
\_ Thanks, I appreciate the effort but it just isn't the
same as a real live troll. :-)
\_ How much did Karl Rove pay you to disregard my
troll? You're one of Them aren't you?
\_ No, but I am one of They and we're coming to
take your sunglasses away.
\_ I have put them someplace where you will never
find them. |
| 2006/8/21-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44081 Activity:nil |
8/21 Why is Iran shelling northern Iraq?
\_ Link?
\_ http://csua.org/u/gq9
\_ http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/world/middleeast/20iraq.html
\_ Thank you both. --pp
\_ Turkey, Iran, the U.S, and the UK all agree that the PKK is a
terrorist organization
\_ The establishment of an independent Kurdistan following the first
Gulf War presents a fascinating counterfactual. |
| 2006/8/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:44026 Activity:nil |
8/16 http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/16/D8JHHOUO0.html Who knew public opinion could turn so quickly on the PM in Israel? \_ I knew. -average American male \_ It's kind of like Bush in microcosm. I guess Americans are much slower to get the message that their leadership blows. \_ They've already released two suspects without charges being filed. Looks like it's unraveling. Wonder how much the mainstream media will cover that. |
| 2006/8/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44018 Activity:nil |
8/15 http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1227204,00.html?cnn=yes Every Jewish transaction is about money. -Mel Gibson #1 fan \_ Why was it never publicized that essentially every adminstrative post in Clinton's administration was a Jew. He liked to refer to himself as the first Black President, when in fact he was the effectively the first Jewish. \_ Or world domination. -Mel Gibson #2 fan \_ Or circumcision. -Mel Gibson #3 fan \_ Who says it isn't happening now? There are plenty of quotes and interviews from American born descendents who don't want the borders treated like swiss cheese at a mouse convention. |
| 2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44007 Activity:nil |
8/15 Open source project adds "no military use" clause to licence
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/08/14/1438204
Actual licence addition even dumber than title suggests.
\_ We are fighting them in CyberSpace so we don't need to fight them
ITRW.
\_ I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. It's cute. It's naive.
\_ Cute and naive. Like a typical Berkeley undergraduate female
trying fellatio for the first time. -average Berkeley male
\_ "Both developers do agree about one aspect of their license clause.
It is based on the first of science fiction writer Isaac Asimov's
Three Law of Robotics, which states, "A robot may not harm a human
being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."
That, they say, is a good thing, "because the guy was right," Tegel
says, "and he showed the paradox that almost any technological
development has to solve, whether it is software or an atom bomb.
We must discuss now what ethical problems we may raise in the
future." Unfortunately, they totally miss the point of Asimov's
Three Laws of Robotics. If they had actually read the stories,
they'd know his point was that 3 simple laws are insufficient to
determine the 'right' thing to do in a complex world. |
| 2006/8/11-14 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43978 Activity:nil |
8/11 http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp Pro-Israel organization wages propaganda war \_ The narrator's smug tone makes me want to go blow up Israel myself. \_ The narrator probably isn't even Israeli. Do you have any issue with the content, or only his tone? \_ gasp. one propaganda war to battle another. Where will it all end? \_ In my pants. Huh huh. -beavis |
| 2006/8/11-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43968 Activity:nil |
8/11 Iraqis are getting shot over naked goats and suggestive vegetables.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5622900
These people are broken.
\_ Once their imams start arguing over whether characters in toddler
tv shows are gay because they are carrying a purse, we'll know
for sure.
\_ But remember, these people aren't the true face of Islam! Islam is
a religion of peace.. just like all the other ones! Remember, all
major world religions agree: atheism is the enemy.
\_ But their women are hot. Yah! -T.E.A.M. America World Police |
| 2006/8/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43905 Activity:nil |
8/4 "With yellow Hezbollah banners above their heads and American and
Israeli flags beneath their feet, at least a 100,000 Iraqis marched in
Baghdad after Friday prayers in support of the Shiite militia in
Lebanon. ... protesters burned effigies of President Bush and British
Prime Minister Tony Blair in a demonstration rife with symbolism and
anger." http://csua.org/u/gm5 (latimes.com)
\_ OK, we get our riled up undocumented immigrants, and send them in
for a counter-protest. Let the brown people fight it out!
\_ I'd pay to watch Miss Puerto Rico fight. -proud American |
| 2006/8/3-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43894 Activity:nil |
8/3 "The prospect of a low intensity civil war and a de facto division of
Iraq is probably more likely at this stage than a successful and
substantial transition to a stable democracy ... the next six months
are crucial"
-Outgoing UK ambassador to Iraq in last official private memo
Here's an exercise: Google for "the next six months are crucial" iraq
\_ I don't get it. -proud American |
| 2006/7/28-8/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43830 Activity:high |
7/28 Try http://google.com/trends http://google.com/trends?q=al+gore%2C+global+warming&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all Try "iraq war, global warming, gasoline" Click on "Regions". Americans don't seem to care about global warming. \_ http://csua.org/u/gk7 (what you said) \_ Check out http://www.shylove.com |
| 2006/7/27-30 [Health/Dental, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43822 Activity:low |
7/27 http://csua.org/u/gjx (Wash Post) "a blue Volkswagen Passat, exploded nearby ... an elderly man running down the street with a 'fountain of blood coming out of his neck,' he said. 'He was screaming: "help me, help me, help me, don't let me die," Taha recounted, pointing out the blood spot on the sidewalk where the man eventually fell. 'We couldn't save him. He died.'" \_ "We couldn't save him. He died" can be said of everyone, in the end. Every man dies. Not every man truly gets hit by an exploding blue Volkswagen and runs around in a fountain of blood. All happens according to the will of God. We can only hope that he accepted Christ sometime before the end. \_ You're trying too hard. Instead of sounding like a jaded or cynical most poster, you just just sound like an idiot that's trying too hard. *sigh* \_ You see that old bloodstain there? Ol' Frank McGee died there back in '06. Yeah, Frank was hollerin' up a storm once he got that dang ol neck wound. Was sprayin' blood all up an down the street. And what does he do but yell at *us* to fix him. As if *we* could stop Frank from dyin', once his neck was sprayin' blood like that. I tell you what though. Blue cars is some bad news. The other thing 'bout blue cars is how the paint fades as it gets older. So when you go for to fix a spot, you can't get the new paint to match the old paint. Just a bad idea all round. But ol' Frank, now he was what they call a Mosslem. I'm not sure he thought of stuff like that. Mosslems have some funny ways o' thinking. You know, ol Frank had two wives. Yep. Now, I'd think, hell, I get enough nagging from Marge and the kids without addin' another woman in the house. Jus' like Marge was harpin' at me fer weeks to scrub out that there blood stain. |
| 2006/7/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43803 Activity:nil |
7/25 50% of Americans now believe Saddam had WMDs, up from 36% in
February 2005. Mission fucking accomplished!
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=684
\_ It all depends on what "WMD" means
\_ This is a nation of people of faith. Now, faith is
not usually required to believe something that is true,
rather it is required in order to believe something
false. So, considering that most people in the US
are willing to believe in mythical beings with mythical
powers, why not believe in mythical WMD's?
\_ When a handful of legislators decide to get up and lie, and
then the media reports it as if their claims have any merit,
is it faith or laziness/lack of time/apathy? I think the latter.
\_ well, what if, technically, the answer of "Yes" is correct,
for the question of whether there were WMDs in Iraq at the
time we invaded. all it takes is a couple sarin-loaded
artillery shells that no one knew about, and in fact
"approximately 500" old, abandoned chemical munitions with
mustard gas and sarin have already been found scattered
throughout Iraq, even though Saddam had ordered all WMD
stockpiles destroyed. The question is bad.
\_ well of course he did, and we knew it. After all, the US supplied
them!
\_ 64% think Saddam "had strong links with Al Qaeda"
72% think Iraqis "are better off now than they were under Saddam"
Go dubya!
\_ I wonder what percentage of those 72% would be willing to
actually set foot in Iraq. |
| 2006/7/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43792 Activity:nil |
7/25 Gutknecht(R-MN), a strong supporter of the war since it began in
March of 2003, told reporters in a telephone conference call Tuesday
that American forces appear to have no operational control of much of
Baghdad.
"Baghdad is worse today than it was three years ago."
But, didn't we get told that major combat operations are over?
Does this mean we have to retake Baghdad all over again?
\_ Depends on who controls it which your quote doesn't say. |
| 2006/7/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43760 Activity:nil |
7/21 Huh, turns out, peace IS war (Thomas Sowell)
http://csua.org/u/ghu (townhall.com, a mouthpiece for conservatives)
\_ "One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends
out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality."
I thought the current conservative climate would have found that to
be a plus. |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43722 Activity:nil |
7/18 http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog The American government is very financially saavy. By cutting unnecessary fat, we save a lot of money to pay for our deficit. \_ After 10 years of Republican control, there is no more fat to cut, government is as lean is it can possibly be! |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43719 Activity:nil |
7/18 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_out_of_control A Sunni driver lures Shiites into a trojan horse van by promising jobs-- then blows it up. \_ I read an article over a year ago about dudes blowing up copy stores where job applicants were photocopying their job application forms to apply for jobs as cops. - danh |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Reference/Military] UID:43715 Activity:nil |
7/18 6000 Iraqis killed in sectarian fighting in May and June, approximately
100 a day. Six thousand deaths in two months, in a country of
26 million residents, is the equivalent of 9/11 every two and a half
days.
http://www.uniraq.org/documents/HR%20Report%20May%20Jun%202006%20EN.pdf
\_ But we're spreading freedom!
\_ That will all stop once we turn the corner. Just wait!
\_ Maybe they should stop fighting each other then. If you need a
totalitarian police state to prevent your citizens from butchering
each other then something is wrong with your culture.
\_ Sooo I guess that's "oopsiedoodle" on the whole Iraq thing then.
\_ Saddam used biological weapons on his own people!
... maybe we should use some on them too!
\_ ob we're fighting them there so we don't fight them here.
ob if you disagree, you're giving aid and comfort to the enemy
and not supporting the troops
ob mushroom cloud over major american city
\_ so long as the right people are dying what's the problem?
If it is truely innocent civilians very very sad. |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43712 Activity:nil |
7/18 "The U.S. government says it has evacuated more than 100 Americans,
but their efforts are clearly lagging behind those of other countries.
The French and Italians have gotten hundreds of their citizens out."
Clearly, cheese eating surrender monkeys are better at ESCAPING!
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog |
| 2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43700 Activity:nil |
7/17 We have turned yet another corner in Iraq!
http://www.csua.org/u/ggm
\_ 50 people died today but we're spreading LIBERY FREEDOM AND THE
PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS in Iraq! -jblack #2 fan
\_ We're running out of Iraqi corners
\_ We're just circling the same damn block.
\_ We should build cities with hexagonal blocks. 50% more
corners for the same price!
\_ Not octagons, though. The government would get sued by
UFC.
\_ Can one fill a surface with octagons?
\_ Not in Euclidean or spherical geometry. You can
do it in the hyperbolic plane, see e.g
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/apps/teich-nav/report/node1.html
Some of Escher's designs were based on this sort
of pattern.
\_ Wow! Thx.
\_ What if they were all round? Is that no corners or
infinite corners?
\_ I'd think of it as infinite corners. But you can't fill
a surface with round shapes.
\- if we think about this in terms of
differentiability i think it is
better to think of round as "no corners".
You may enjoy reading about
THE WEIERSTRASS FUNCTION. --psb
\- if we think about this in terms of differentiability
i think it's better to think of round as no corners.
You may enjoy reading about THE WEIERSTRASS FUNCTION.
I suppose you can also read about LOCAL LINEARITY.
BTW, there are some pretty counter intuitive stuff
in this area [space filling sets and covers]. For a
Berkeley connection, you may
google(dubins, hirsch, scissor) also see
google(dubins, hirsch, scissor) also see e.g.
http://sciboard.louisville.edu/math.html#q12 --psb
\_ Interesting. I was thinking in terms of
circumference and area, which approach 2*pi*r and
pi*r^2 as N approaches infinity. So do the two
ways of thinking contradict to each other? I'm
not a math major. -- PP
ways of thinking contradict each other? I'm
not a math major and I'm only good at high school
math. -- PP |
| 2006/7/14-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43672 Activity:nil |
7/14 Baghdad descending into total anarchy.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2268585_2,00.html
"A local journalist told me bitterly this week that Iraqis find it
ironic that Saddam Hussein is on trial for killing 148 people 24 years
ago, while militias loyal to political parties now in government kill
that many people every few days. But it is not an irony that anyone
here has time to laugh about. They are too busy packing their bags and
wondering how they can get out alive."
\_ but it is our God given duty to bring FREEDOM LIBERTY AND THE
PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS into primitive cultures around the world,
starting with Iraq! There is no price too great for our glorious
War on every primitive culture on this planet. The War is totally
worth it. God Bless.
\_ Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my
orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help
the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American
trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta
keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
\_ Personally, I think, uh... they don't really want to be
involved in this war. You know, I mean... they sort of took
away our freedom and gave it to the, to the gookers, you
know. But they don't want it. They'd rather be alive than
free, I guess. Poor dumb bastards.
\_ that's because there is evidence for that.. there are tons
more people killed but no evidence to support it..
\_ that's <censored by the US Government> no <censored by the US
Government> support <censored>
\_ Uh...forest, trees anyone?
\_ sorta like how evidence of WMD's was the technical reason for
the war?
\_ No, the real difference is that this is (largely) the people killing
themselves.
\_ So the people killing each other is preferable to the government
doing it?
\_ it's a democratic right! if yer still alive, it's probably
because you and yours have also exercised yer right to bear
an assault rifle!
\_ If you've been paying attention to other reporting coming out
of Baghdad recently, it is becoming evident that the government
is collaborating with the militia death squads - or at least
tacitly supporting them. For instance see:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/12/baghdad
For a personal perspective:
http://www.csua.org/u/gfl (riverbend blog)
\_ hey, democrats, got a problem for ya. I've been opposing the war
all along. And there is a part of me want us just to get out.
The logic is that you can not reverse a failed policy (i.e.
invading iraq), and we shouldn't be responsible for such failed
policy. HOWEVER, it is more and more clear that if we get out
prematurely, there will be a genocide of some sort... what
should we do? continue Bush's failed policy?
\_ Check the Lawrence Kaplan article. The (quiet) Bush policy is
withdrawal anyway, even though they keep vigorously denying the
existence of a "timetable."
\_ and blaming democrats for the genocide happened afterwards...
sounds like an ingenius plan of Karl Rove again.
\_ any link to that article?
\_ Here you go:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=3FtL2Vxi34T0BA0X2XTFjy%3D%3D
\_ I told you a long time ago what we should do, you are just
not interested in doing what will work. |
| 2006/7/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43628 Activity:nil |
7/10 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13806135 Who says Iraq businesses aren't doing well? Here is more proof that free-market can work in Iraq, and how! \_ So now everyone will do this and the militias will start killing people they suspect are faking it, and one of these days they'll kill their own sect, and they'll be sub-sectarian violence. Huzzah! |
| 2006/7/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43623 Activity:kinda low |
7/10 Ahem.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060711/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_rape_case
\_ well, that just makes me think (yeah, I know the author is leaning
that way too) that the killers didn't know the people they killed
were in the same platoon as the child rapists.
\_ "... as the child rapists". Have these guys had a trial yet?
\_ yes, and OJ didn't kill the white girl
\_ ok so they didn't have a trial. this isn't stalinist
russia. yet.
\_ re: the "child" part. Have they actually figured out how old
she was? I've heard numbers from 14 - 26
\_ yes, she is 14
\_ yes, she was 14
http://csua.org/u/ge2 (reuters.com)
\_ Did they rape her seven year old little sister, too?
\_ Well, yeah. Because these terrorists are always so coy with their
motivations and anti-US propoganda. They just forgot to mention
till now why they did it. |
| 2006/7/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43561 Activity:moderate |
7/5 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1659910/posts Recall two U.S. soldiers were kidnapped a couple weeks ago and killed. Reports are now that they were mutilated beyond recognition and beheaded. Recall that another U.S. soldier was charged with rape and quadruple murder last week. It turns out that all three soldiers were in the same platoon. \_ jblack, is that you? Do you still call them "Freedom Fries"? \_ Just watch the coverage disparity. \_ This is non-responsive. Just answer the question please. \_ there wasn't a question. why do you hate so much? -!jblack \_ "Do you still call them Freedom Fries", is not a question? What do you call it then? \_ blunt hostility serving no useful purpose. have you stopped beating your wife? -!jblack \_ Hey, you are the idiots who alienated our allies with the whole "Freedom Fries" thing. Along with triumphant aircraft carrier landings, "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys", "Old Europe", "Bring 'Em On!" and all the rest of the loudmouthed, trash talking. Now that things have not gone your way, you want to pretend like it all never happened. Sorry, three years ago is not ancient history and we need to be reminded of your arrogant foolishness, so as to learn from your mistakes and not repeat them. \_ "you are either with us, or against us." remember that line? and then, we invaded Iraq. Those who are resisting our occupation are by definition terrorist and should not be pardoned. Is this all thing warped? or it's just me? \_ "You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists" was how I remember it. Which is worse, I don't know... \_ how big is a platoon? \_ commanded by a lieutenant, a combat platoon typically has 30-40 \_ Compare the US non-reaction of this with the Israeli reaction of a kidnapping of *one* soldier in Gaza. No wonder our troops might as well have target circles painted on their uniforms. \_ think of why there is no reaction from our part? may be these US Soldiers deserve to be killed? |
| 2006/6/29-7/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43529 Activity:nil |
6/29 If I hear "as the iraqis stand up, we can stand down" one more time,
I'm going to scream. This zero sum expectation is ludicrous when
the country is falling apart. When the iraqi military is a loose knit
group of militias, each with their own agenda, us standing down only
makes for freer reign for pursuing their agendas. The happy talk
about "N brigades trained" makes me ill.
\_ "as the iraqis stand up, we can stand down"
\_ Dubya's strategy can be summed up as: Bravely running away.
\_ So, the "before" "bring it on" Bush:
Bravely bold Sir Robin rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die, O brave Sir Robin!
He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways,
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin!
He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp,
Or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken;
To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away;
And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Robin!
His head smashed in and his heart cut out
And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged
And his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off
And his pen--
after?
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin! |
| 2006/6/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43521 Activity:nil |
6/28 Traitorous NY Times quotes cut-and-run colonel insulting the memory of
every soldier who has sacrificed their lives for our precious freedom.
http://tinyurl.com/kyfdo
\_ Just read the article. How the hell does this colonel insult the
memory of anyone?
\_ YHBT. |
| 2006/6/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43514 Activity:nil |
6/28 First commissioned officer to publicly refuse deployment to Iraq
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653999/posts
http://www.thankyoult.org
\_ I like the 2nd FR post:
> Three words:
>
> 1. Charge
> 2. Convict
> 3. SENTANCE
^
\_ 4. SPELL-CHECK
\_ 5. ???
6. Profit!
--The Underpants Gnomes
\_ http://www.jamesfaqs.com/Morans.jpg
America, fuck yeah. -John |
| 2006/6/23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43488 Activity:nil |
6/23 Khobar Towers
http://www.iranvajahan.net/cgi-bin/news.pl?l=en&y=2006&m=06&d=23&a=5 |
| 2006/6/23-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:43476 Activity:nil |
6/23 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060623/ap_on_re_us/terrorism_investigation War on Terror is working Wire tapping is a good thing Bush is great News like these will keep coming till November Republicans will hold control Democrats will whine as usual \_ So you think news like this is orchestrated and part of some long ranging plot of the geoplutocratic Cabal? \_ Of course not. It's being orchestrated by Karl Rove and the GOP. No Cabal is necessary. \_ I hope you see the humor in your reply. It certainly made me laugh. \_ Certainly. It's the irony that makes me weep myself to sleep at night. |
| 2006/6/22-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43468 Activity:nil |
6/22 http://mediamatters.org/items/200606200008 O'Reilly on his radio show, describing how he would stabilize Iraq: "President O'Reilly, curfew in Ramadi, 7 o'clock at night. You're on the street, you're dead. I shoot you right between the eyes. OK? That's how I'd run that country -- just like Saddam ran it. Saddam didn't have explosions. He didn't have bombers, did he? ... you have to have that for a few months to stabilize the situation so the Iraqi government can get organized, can get security in place and get the structure going." \_ Ah, the right finally reveals its true colors: brownshirt. \_ O'Reilly isn't "the right". \_ So the WMD reason for going to war: kaput. The "we'll be rich off oil" reason: kaput. And now "we'll liberate the people": kaput. So why does papa bear say this is a good war again? \_ So what do you think of the recent partially released document revealing hundreds of wmd loaded shells were found mixed in with standard shells? I don't recall anyone saying we'd be rich off Iraqi oil. O'Reilly doesn't speak for the government. So, what are you talking about? More bashing on some random entertainer? Now if there was an actual elected official or highly placed appointee who said these things there'd be something to talk about. \_ The Iraq Survey Group, sent to Iraq by the administration in 2003, said "While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible Indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter." Looks like the crap Santorium is talking about is the above. Anonymous motd pundit, how can you take anything Santorum says seriously? \_ This outlandish claim by Santorum et al has been widely debunked and disowned. The shells we have found were highly degraded and dated back to pre-'91 times (read Iran-Iraq war). As for rich off iraqi oil, we were told repeatedly that this war would cost next to nothing, and that oil revenues would cover the nominal cost: Iran-Iraq war. Y'know, the ones that we sold them?). As for rich off iraqi oil, we were told repeatedly that this war would cost next to nothing, and that oil revenues would cover the nominal cost: http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/iraqquotes_web.htm \_ Missing point. This was a small part of a larger report he wants declassified. It isn't about 500 old shells, it is about "why are we not getting the rest of the report if there's nothing in it"? Santorum's claim is that there is more in the report we're not being told about. How can you know if there's anything more if the report remains classified? \_ Of course I can't know. But I do know Santorum is a sanctimonious, mendacious fool, and this doesn't pass the smell test. \_ Wait, are you suggesting that the Bush Admin is holding back evidence of WMD in Iraq? Why? What purpose would that serve? \_ Show me a report on the web that doesn't include a freeper URL. \_ So it was only discussed in an open session in Congress but it isn't true unless you see it on the web? Ooook. \_ Please. They discussed whether TWA800 was shot down by missiles in an open session in Congress. If you have docs, produce them. \_ So now you claim there was no such document much less the unclassified summary document? There were no shells at all? You're the only person I've seen to dispute that. What do you base that belief on? \_ You have yet to provide me with a non-freeper url linking to this report. Please to be doing so. \_ How strange. It wasn't that long ago (last week) that saying, "I read it on the net, it must be true" was considered sarcasm. And what does the freepers have to do with it? Everyone who disagree with you is not automatically your opposite number. I've read the freeper site exactly once. I'll bet you're a more avid freeper visitor than I am. \_ Was there a sale on red herrings? I'm asking for a source for op's point. A published, paper source would be fine, but op and I don't meet in RL, so there's no chance of that; I'll settle for a URL that is not freeper-based. If you can't provide it, say so. The Dem below found it, and further found that it was already debunked. And no, I don't visit freeper. That tree's already poisoned, so why test the fruit? \_ No red herrings here. You keep ignoring the point: WMD were found. They were supposed to have been destroyed. All of them. Not just from post GWI. Why would you not want to see a full accounting of everything found in Iraq? That's what the full document is. The point you studiously ignore is that Santorum wants the whole document released. The age or count of 500 shells is not the issue. It is in fact, a red herring. \_ See the URL below, then compare with this report from the Iraq Survey Group Final report: http://csua.org/u/ga6 Cf. also with Bush's admission that the WMDs we had been led to believe were in Iraq were not there. The red herring to which I refer is your attempt to derail my call for a source with a non sequitur about believing things you read on the Internet. \_ geez, it isn't that hard -Dem link:csua.org/u/ga0 (santorum.senate.gov) basically these weren't the WMDs the U.S. went to war for. \_ Thank you. -pp \_ Does O'Reilly say it was/is good? He says we have to stay and win, but that's not the same thing. \_ As a liberal, I could agree that we've fucked it all up and that we shouldn't leave Iraq until there is some semblance of order. Also I want everyone who is part of this build up to invade Iraq to lose everything politically, financially, and physically, but that is not going to happen. \_ This is where the division among liberals comes in. There are many, myself included, don't think there is anyway we can restore order unless we reinstate the draft and flood Iraq with literally millions pairs of boots on the ground. \_ Whoa there cowboy! I thought dogma stated that the only answer was to *reduce* the number of American feet on the ground so the natives would have less to be upset about, now you're talking about a draft to put millions of people there who definitely don't want to be there? The correct answer is to reduce American troop count as Iraqi troop count and skill level goes up until they can deal with it on their own. I see no reason why Iraqis can't restore their own order given a fair chance which neither fleeing nor flooding will provide. \_ Given a level playing field and a restart of the clock, I agree that the Iraqis have a good chance of restoring order. I'm not convinced that they have that level playing field or the time required. That said, "dogma" is not something I would even begin to entertain in an environment as richly complex as Iraq. -!pp \_ So after the Iraqi government pulls the local militia types into the government, you think the foreign terrorist types will be anything more than pests? They're such psychos they attack other arabs (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia come to mind) who are now pissed off and helping the West find and kill them. Zarqawi was killed with information from Jordan, for example. \_ "after the Iraqi government pulls the local militia types into the government" may be a lot later than you think. In fact, I hear they've set the date for the 12th of Never. \_ cute but not reality based. pick up a newspaper. talks are on going and have been for a few weeks that we're aware of. \_ Cf. the inclusion of Afghan warlords as "governors" of certain areas of that country and the resurgence of the Taleban (not to mention in-fighting) between the warlords. I agree that there have been talks; I doubt the sanity of including more decentralized paramilitary forces as a solution to the insurgency. \_ The problem is the number of Sunni insurgents is going up as well as the number of Shiite militia. I don't believe we are making any progress in terms of creating "Iraqi" troops (who would fight for Iraq, not a faction). If on the other hand, you say we get out when we think the Sunnis and Shiites come to a power-sharing agreement with an acceptable level of car bombs and death squads, that makes more sense. \_ What is your source for the increasing numbers of insurgents and lack of any progress on the part of the new Iraqi government training their own? \_ EVERYTHING. Don't you get it? We're training Iraqi troops, but they're actually Shiite (police), Sunni (military), or outright insurgents. The goal is to give the Shiites/Sunnis/Kurds enough pieces until there is some kind of status quo, I mean, government. \_ Ok so you have no source. Shrug. I have no problem with you having a particular feeling about it but to come here and say there are more numbers of this or less numbers of that is insufficient to make a real point. I thought you might have actual real numbers for the Iraqi government side at least, which is public info. I don't think the other side does a quarterly public report on their recruiting efforts. \_ Okay, fine. There is no hard data on the number of insurgents, because insurgents by their nature don't want to be found (and eliminated). Most numbers are for hard-core fighters anyway, with the number of sympathizers in some reports going over 200,000 individuals. However, there is a public report delivered quarterly to Congress (google "iraq congressional report") which shows the number of insurgent attacks growing (note the graph doesn't show the ramp-up from March 2003 to April 2004, which would be embarrassing). Is the increase in attacks because the number of insurgents is increasing, or because the number is staying the same or decreasing but they're reacting fiercely because they're in their "last throes"? Who knows. It's my opinion that, while our goal is to create a national Iraqi identity and police/army force, what we're actually doing is feeding each faction until they can get into some sort of status quo, at which point we can significantly reduce the number of troops there. I completely agree that the number of "Iraqi" soldiers and police is increasing. However, it's my opinion that, while our goal is to create a national Iraqi identity and police/army force, what we're actually doing is feeding each faction (Sunni military and Shiite police) until they can get into some sort of status quo, at which point we can significantly reduce the number of troops there. In other words, what I'm doing is clarifying what "as they stand up" really means. |
| 2006/6/20-24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43441 Activity:nil |
6/19 Cheney... Fucking Cheney...
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/19/D8IBFKU05.html
"I don't think anybody anticipated the level of violence that
we've encountered," Cheney said.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm
"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an
occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not
changing objectives in midstream, engaging in 'mission creep,'
and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs.
... Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably
still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would
have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."
--George HW Bush
\_ Note the "changing objectives in the midstream" That was 1991.
This is now 2006.
\_ So you're fine with the claim that our problems in Iraq,
just like the problems in New Orleans, and even 9/11,
were caused by a failure of imagination? "I don't think
anybody anticipated..." has become a sick joke in this first
part of the 21st century.
\_ that sentence was late in 20th centry 1991
\_ Stupid or trolling?...
\_ Uhm....yes?
\_ Yeah, op should have just included the relevant quote, the
part after the ellipses, although the first part was entirely
correct in its own context.
\_ correct for those who never bother to read any history,
and hubris enough to think THIS is different than anything
else happened before.
\_ what?
\_ what? x2
\_ what a dick |
| 2006/6/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43416 Activity:nil |
6/15 Let's face it. Karl Rove is evil, but is also extremely brilliant.
What new tricks do you anticipate in the upcoming elections?
\_ Dubya simultaneously stays the course in Iraq and brings some
troops back to a heroic homecoming.
\_ Precisely. He announces that victory is complete and says he'll
bring home troops. He brings back a minimum number and says the
rest are merely support and on their way home Real Soon Now.
At the same time, he paints Dems as cowards. Fox publishes
retrospective on the war describing the entire venture in rosy
terms ("sacrifices were made for the greater good," etc.).
The best Dems can hope for after that is the assassination of
the Iraqi PM.
\_ Are you fucking nuts? Why would you *hope for* the Iraqi
PM to be assassinated? Why would anyone hope for that?
\_ Because it's ok if the middle east goes to hell and
millions die, as long as the Dems win the next
election!
\_ And yet, not surprisingly, it would be okay with
everyone involved if you were found drowned and
bloated, no matter who wins the next election.
\_ Oo, touched a nerve, huh? And, not surprisingly,
you cannot express yourself in an intelligent
manner. Ook! Trog kill!
\_ It's always disappointing to me when this is
the best a college educated person can do.
-someone else
\_ You DON'T. That's the point. The GOP is so good at the
PR game that they're going to paint the Dems into a
corner where the only way out is if something absolutely
terrible happens.
\_ Paint into a corner? What? So Iraq taking a turn for
the worse is good for the party? The logic behind that
is so painfully twisted I'm left speechless. Nevermind,
it's only the motd. I'm going to lunch.
\_ Here's my vain attempt to make this clear to you:
Bushco is going to announce victory and bring back
a minimum number of troops while promising to bring
the rest back at some vague date in the future.
He'll ridicule the Dems as cowards who would have
pulled out our troops before we were able to complete
the mission. Fox will kick into overdrive with
retrospectives of how the war _was_ terrible but
how it was utterly justified and how the troops
who died did so in the line of duty. The networks
will miss the point and will argue over the war,
but in the past tense, thereby solidifying the
idea that it's over. The public, faced with a
seemingly successful conclusion to the matter, will
go along with the GOP as the party of winners. The
Dems will then have no real means of regaining
Congress or the White House. The one thing that could
derail this plan is if something catastrophic
and sensationally public occurred in Iraq, such as
the assassination of the Iraqi PM; a public
reversal like that would be sufficient to prove
that the war is not won in Iraq, thereby short-
circuiting the PR war. Read carefully: I'm not saying
that anyone should be hoping for the assassination
of the Iraqi PM; I'm saying that the GOP is setting
up an airtight plan to continue their dominance.
\_ ok it does make me feel better that you're not
rooting for an assassination. However, I'm not
buying that if there's still say, 30,000 US troops
there and bombs are still going off in Baghdad
that anyone is going to buy that it's over. As
far as planning for political dominance, that is
a political parties reason for being. I expect
both major political groups to spend all their
time plotting and planning to achieve and retain
power. WTF else are they good for? Once you
accept that political parties exist you can't
fault them for doing what they were designed
to do.
\_ I would buy this if there were oversight
worth a damn keeping them from acting
illegally and unethically. The sad truth is
(as DeLay mostly worked out) that if you
control the means of oversight, you can then
overlook your own excesses.
\_ I'm a glass half-full kinda guy. I see
DeLay and Jefferson's fridge stuffing and
the many other times someone in either party
got busted and booted and often jailed as
the system working. I see the Keating Five
(sleaze bag McCain) getting off as a
failure but that's the exception. So, I'm
not going for this "the people are stupid"
line and I'm also not buying the "they
always get away with it" thing either. The
overall record stands against that line of
reasoning.
\_ airtight except for the fact that Iraq is still
a clusterfuck and it will get worse if we pull
our troops out. That government wouldn't last
a week. -tom
\_ And that's why they pull back a token number,
declare a public victory, and leave the rest
of the troops in place to be withdrawn at some
vague future date.
\_ People are stupid, but I don't think this
administration has enough credibility left
to turn things around with token gestures.
-tom
\_ I hope you're right.
\_ Don't confuse "conniving" with "billiant." -tom
\_ Brilliantly conniving. Not all connivers are on the same
plane as Rove.
\_ yosafbridge
\_ Two words: "special hell" :D --michener
\_ quiet, this is a movie. |
| 2006/6/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43411 Activity:nil |
6/15 Victories in Iraq, Bush Approval Up
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199668,00.html
\_ In other news, Fox is the mouthpiece for the administration. |
| 2006/6/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43410 Activity:nil |
6/15 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199623,00.html The Iraq War is going in the right direction. \_ In other news, Fox is the mouthpiece for the administration. \_ I'm glad we have friends like these. I wish they existed back in WWII. I bet we'd have won that war faster with the press second-guessing everything. \_ In some ways it's similar. I seem to recall that "Nazi's have killed 6 million Jews" was not a big news story. Now we have: "insurgents" massacre civilians? Ho hum. Heroism by US troops? Nah. Accusations of US troop misconduct from anonymous unauthenticated source? Stop the presses! \_ if putting things into perspective. number of Russian casualties, number of Chinese caulties, number of casulties in Southeast Asia.. then, while 6 million is bad, but rest of 40+ million is pretty bad too \_ Live in the present, grasshopper. Painting a rosy picture of inanity and incompetence does no one any good. \_ This is not about the present or the past. It's about a systemic and pervasive hidden war against those who disagree with qualifications. Are you a soldier? Are you a historian? Can you cite precedence even? It's just arrogant presumption, not to mention, cynicism that clouds your judgement in this and all matters related to BushCo/OIF or even Dems vs Repubs. It does no good if all you do is second-guess, complain and offer no real solutions. Like they say put your money where your mouth is. I have not see any 'money' yet from anyone. \_ Here's a solution: don't fucking invade Iraq. There were several million people (including me) who took to the streets to make that point. It is disappointing that the administration went ahead with Operation Clusterfuck anyway, but it is not at all surprising that we're now in a protracted war with no real end in sight. -tom \_ It's not arrogant or cynical. The reality is that Bush is rash and incompetent. This and WWII have almost nothing in common. \_ What, aside from voting, protesting, and donating cash to political candidates that support your point of view can your typical dissenter do? What, in your mind, constitutes "putting your money etc" in this context? \_ I think he means "ok, now that we're there, how about some constructive ideas" which is legit, but something I see as a really incompetent, pathetic, juvenile and cowardly approach to foreign policy if this were really the thinking behind the Iraq war. I.e. "well, we're all in this together"--same as when your little brother floods the basement and you have to help clean up, or live with the mess. Except that in the real world, the little brother gets a knock upside the head. -John \_ OK, suggestion one is for the whole frickin' crew to admit they're completely unethical and incompetent and immediately resign. -tom \_ Well, good luck. Maybe they'll all have a sudden attack of conscience and responsibility, and monkeys will fly out of my ass. Great thing about a democracy is, if 51% of the people whose votes count don't want accountability... -John \_ in Fox News defense... I don't think Fox News is a mouth piece of the administration. I think it's just a pure MONEY generating machine which knows exactly what its audience *WANTS* to hear. And most American citizens prefer simplicity over complexity; prefer good news over bad news; prefer USA is a benevolant superpower that invades another country for the goodnes of man kind than a country which its own private business' interest trump everything else. |
| 2006/6/15-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43407 Activity:nil |
6/15 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060615/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_terror_blueprint This convinced me that the Iraq War was the right thing to do. \_ This might be an argument to convince someone that staying the course a little longer is the right thing to do, but what's your rationale for finding this a convincing w.r.t. starting the war? \_ USA also have blueprints to nuke entire USSR and China out off the face of the earth. Does it mean USSR/China is justified to invade USA in the name of self-defense? |
| 2006/6/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43405 Activity:nil |
6/15 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1649811/posts Freepers not sure how to react as al-Qaeda in Iraq plan states number one goal is to get U.S. into a war with Iran \_ The enemy of my enemy is my friend's cousin's sister-in-law's uncle's high school sweetheart? \_ But...what does that make me? \_ But...what's that make us? |
| 2006/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43380 Activity:nil |
6/13 Should be interesting to watch the Webv vs Allen senate race in VA.
Webb is RR's fmr Secretary of the Navy who left the R party over
the Iraq war. Allen has much better recognition but the rhetoric
in that election may be interesting to follow, espe if Allen decide
to run for President in 2008.
\_ Politics is local. |
| 2006/6/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43351 Activity:nil |
6/11 US military commander calls Gitmo suicides "act of war"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm
\_ General Jack Ripper is alive and well.
\_ When I first read that, I thought it was from the Onion.
\_ yes, act of war... let's kill them... wait... they already died.
\_ 'The US military said the men's bodies were being treated "with the
utmost respect".' Oh good. As long as we treat _dead_ bodies at
Gitmo w/ respect. |
| 2006/6/8-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43328 Activity:nil |
6/8 http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2006/06/08/haditha Sidney Blumenthal says Dubya's father "waged a secret campaign over several months early this year to remove Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ... personally asking a retired four-star general if he would accept the position ... The elder Bush's intervention was an extraordinary attempt to rescue simultaneously his son, the family legacy and the country." \_ Although I agree that something more than a no-fly-zone was necessary to protect our former allies the Kurds, Invasion: Baghdad was just as bad an idea in '91 as it was this time. Remember, the same cast of bad apples in Bush2: Cabinet Boogaloo are the ones that got overruled at the end of Gulf War I. This is their revenge, their chance at vindication, and it's turned out to be an utter mess... just as cooler heads predicted at the end of GWI. As for Carter, are you freaking high? Carter inherited a bad situation and turned it around so that when Ronnie came into office in January '81, he could fuck it up for a while before anyone realized he'd screwed it up. Bush2 inherited a budget surplus and undenied military supremacy and parlayed that into gazillion dollar deficits and the belief that anyone with a guerilla army can beat the US military. \_ And we care because Dad did such a great job as President? \_ He did a spectacular job, in kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, having a global consensus, and having everyone else finance it. -Dem \_ And didn't finish the job. And while we're here what are his other claims to fame that make him someone worth listening to? Of the President's I'm old enough to remember, only Carter was a worse President than Dad. \_ The "job" was to kick Saddam out of Kuwait. \_ The "job" was to kick Saddam out of Kuwait and to minimize him as a threat to his neighbors. Invading Iraq had a 0% probability of occurring at the time, nevermind the obvious problems of occupying the country and keeping the Sunnis and Shiites from killing each other. I say again, regarding the Gulf War, Bush's father did a spectacular job. \_ So kicking Saddam out of Kuwait accomplished what exactly? Why did we care about Kuwait? The only people hurt by the fall of the Kuwaitis are the ruling family and even then they just would have lived in exile with their billions of dollars. We restored hereditary oil rich family to power. Oh yay. Success. We also told the Kurds and southern Shiites we'd support their uprising and then watched them get slaughtered. That was good for US credibility. Oh yes, it was a truly spectacular job. \_ Although I agree that something more than a no-fly-zone was necessary to protect our former allies the Kurds, Invasion: Baghdad was just as bad an idea in '91 as it was this time. Remember, the same cast of bad apples in Bush2: Cabinet Boogaloo are the ones that got overruled at the end of Gulf War I. This is their revenge, their chance at vindication, and it's turned out to be an utter mess... just as cooler heads predicted at the end of GWI. As for Carter, are you freaking high? Carter inherited a bad situation and turned it around so that when Ronnie came \_ We've been through this. Perhaps you've heard of double digit inflation? The Misery index? The infamous Malaise Speech? Four hundred and how many days of The Hostage Crisis on TV every friggin night? Carter showed the world that the US could be brought to her knees by a bunch of untrained thugs with bad attitudes. Oh yeah but wait, we tied yellow ribbons around everything in support and memory of the hostages. Carter: best President in modern times! Woot! The only thing he did was provide Dad a way of not being the worst President in the last few decades. GHB couldn't even win a "worst of" contest. into office in January '81, he could fuck it up for a while before anyone realized he'd screwed it up. Bush2 \_ By that logic, Clinton fucked the economy and we didn't see the effects until a while into Junior's term. I doubt you believe that. That knife cuts both ways. inherited a budget surplus and undenied military supremacy and parlayed that into gazillion dollar deficits and the belief that anyone with a guerilla army can beat the US military. \_ Hahaha. |
| 2006/6/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43320 Activity:nil |
6/8 Remaining three critical ministry posts confirmed by Iraqi parliament.
Two Shiites for interior and national security, a Sunni (who had
been ground forces commander (for defense minister).
The nominations had been put forward immediately after the
announcement of al-Zarqawi's death.
\_ quagmire.
\_ Yes, Iraq is just like Vietnam. Except for the political,
environmental, religious, geo-political, military, civilian,
economic differences. Yep, just like it. Comrade, The Peoples
shall one day crush the Western Imperialist Yankee Pigdogs and
They shall take what is theirs! Disney and Mcdonald's for all! |
| 2006/6/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43317 Activity:low |
6/8 Al-Zarqawi killed in U.S. airstrike north of Baquba along with 5-7
associates, including a women and child. Identity confirmed through
fingerprints, face, and known scars. Al-Maliki says intelligence was
provided by local residents. U.S. says someone within his network
gave him up.
\_ in later news Pelosi and Kennedy plan ceremony to honor
'slain hero of the resistance'.
\_ Long ass article on the history of Zarqawi in Atlantic Monthly:
http://tinyurl.com/mnll7
\_ Yes! One down, and a few more hundred thousand Muslim
followers and extremists to go...
\_ I think he's probably worth a bit more than your average bomb-
throwing maniac. -John
\_ June 9th 2006 is officially a Victory Day! After many years of
fighting, we won the war on terror! The tide has finally turned
and major combat operations ends. God Bless!
\_ In other news jblack and his friends are drinking beer and
blasting country music to celebrate this news.
\_ I'm a confirmed leftie and critic of the war, but even I'm
happy about this. The guy was a terrorist and murderer. Way to
go, US intel! --erikred
\_ Comrade, you must quickly be taken to the re-education camp!
\_ Wow cool all violence in the Middle East will now stop since
their great leader is dead.
\_ Who said that? No one said that.
\_ It's a fitting that he should be blown up with no warning.
\_ Except the warning of all the other times we tried to blow him
up.
\_ Well he knew we were out to get him, but there was none of
this business of having a trial and indefinite pretrial
detention. Just: BOOM! Game Over.
\_ Were there also troops on the ground in case he
survived the strike?
\_ Iraqi forces got there first, followed by U.S.
\_ URL?
\_ the http://cnn.com main story, it says, "Iraqi forces
were the first on the scene", other articles
explicitly say U.S. arrived soon after
\_ Thanks. I don't usually read http://CNN.com. None
of the wire stories I read mentioned this
information.
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ And now for "Attack of the Clones!"
\_ WHEN CLONES ATTACK!
\_ Yay! Pictures of the corpse! Go go culture of life! I'm not saying
a necessary thing wasn't done, but the right should admit that this
"culture of life" B.S. is pure hypocracy.
"culture of life" B.S. is pure hypocrisy.
\_ rove, I mean, dubya would tell you he defends those who cannot
defend themselves
\_ and without pictures the conspiracy nutters would say it was a
lie. damned if you do, damned if you don't. whatever.
\_ Emmanuel Goldstein is dead! Long live Emmanuel Goldstein! |
| 2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43315 Activity:nil |
6/7 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198566,00.html Unpatriotic Jap army Lieutenant refuses to deploy because of war objects. Maybe we should deport him or put him in the internment camp again. What a disgrace to America -conservative \_ Good one troll. Let's not forget it was Democrat's administration that did the internment but a Republican administration that apologized for it. \_ internment was a completely justified action, though their property should have been returned. Why no apologies or recognition for the Germans and Italians interns held until 1948? \_ and a conservative movement that thinks it wasn't a mistake to intern all U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage \_ and a conservative movement that thinks it was right to intern all U.S. citizens of Japanese heritage |
| 2006/6/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43300 Activity:nil |
6/7 The Real Iraq
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/Taheri_0606.htm |
| 2006/6/5-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43279 Activity:nil |
6/5 Tony Snow compares Federal marriage amendment to civil rights
legislation:
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/06/05/rosegarden/index.html
I think this guy is even more awesome than McClellan.
\_ In the new Bush world order, it's "freedom and liberty" when you
spy on everyone and you get civil rights when they are taken away.
\_ We have always been at war with Eurasia, and Eastasia is our
ally. |
| 2006/6/4-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43272 Activity:nil |
6/4 Iraqi journalist describes life in Baghdad.
http://csua.org/u/g2p (justzipit.blogspot.com)
\_ Is this Salam Pax? |
| 2006/5/31-6/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43240 Activity:nil |
5/31 Pregnant Iraqi and female cousin killed while failing to stop at
checkpoint in Samarra while brother driving them at high speed to
hospital. U.S. military says prohibited area was clearly marked
and there were repeated visual and auditory warnings, and that the
loss of life is regrettable. Driver says he had no indication at
all he was driving into a checkpoint.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1641323/posts
\_ In other news, a carbomb in Huseiniyah killed 22 civilians Tuesday
night...
\_ by the way, in case you don't know, that is why people hate US.
Intentional or not, US tend to inflict huge sufferings upon
ordinary people.
\_ All governments do. It is the nature of government to control
and destroy. Also, I'm not sure how a car bomb falls under
"US tend to inflict huge sufferings". Did an American agent
plant the bomb? |
| 2006/5/29 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:43215 Activity:nil |
5/29 Castro's Cuba
http://www.therealcuba.com/index.htm |
| 2006/5/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43196 Activity:low |
5/25 http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,95496,00.html Lt. Gen Paul Van Riper sank half the American fleet in a wargame using unconventional tactics like motorcycle messengers and converted speedboats. The Navy's response was to make him do it again with convential tactics. \_ I saw a documentary about this and Van Riper claimed the enemy country was supposed to be Israel, not Iran. \_ Saying bad things about Rummy? Someone won't be asked to the next war game! \_ This sounds like business-as-usual for the Bush administration: make the facts fit the desires. \_ I don't understand one thing. He achieved his results by a surprise attack. I think this is useful in a war game, because it alerts commanders to the possibility (and the results if one were to occur). However, it was hardly military genius to fire a bunch of missiles off at ships steaming into the Gulf preemptively and would probably be incredibly stupid in a real situation were you, say, Iran. For all he would know, it wasn't a preemptive strike at all but an exercise and now he started a war against a more powerful opponent who has world opinion on his side. In short: they make too much of his apparent success in this war game. I'm sure the US wasn't too concerned about rehearsing to prepare for an Iranian preemptive strike, because that would be the best possible situation for the US. Hell, maybe they should strike Right Now. So it's fair for the people running the war game to want a "do over" with some rules in place. \_ Does the U.S. have world opinion on its side, even acknowledging how Ahmadinejad has been lately? \_ It would if Iran launched a bunch of missiles at US naval warships preemptively and sunk half of them, killing thousands. \_ You would have U.S. opinion, but you still sure about world opinion? \_ At that point who cares about world opinion? It would be an unquestionable act of war requiring an overwhelming military response, not a UN vote. \_ the guy below said it better than me \_ if our fleets are attacked and ships are sunk we'll respond militarily. we will not seek UN approval or worry about world opinion. world opinion and 5 bucks gets you a cup of coffee. \_ I'm not so sure. If we keep up with the "all options are on the table" rhetoric and showed up w/ a fleet in the Gulf, somehow I doubt Iran striking military targets would elicit much sympathy for us from countries that weren't already our allies. \_ I disagree strongly. I think only Iran's close, close allies (probably not even China/Russia) would side with them. Look at who sided with the US when the US launched a preemptive strike against a despised dictator - practically no one. If Iran launched a strike then every developed nation would oppose them, much as when Saddam struck against Kuwait. \_ I'm not the guy you responded to, but the question is, is it realistic to imagine a case where the U.S. would go in for a full-scale invasion on Iran a la Iraq? Iran may perform a preemptive strike if it's convinced the U.S. is coming for them, but not otherwise, since they're getting everything they want right now without firing a shot. The most I see in the near-term, and even that is highly doubtful, is conventional surgical strikes. Much more likely is sloppy sanctions while China and Russia reap all the benefits. \_ What's telling here is not his use of lo-tek to achieve his goals but the Fleet's utter inability to counter it. Even in a wargame, it makes sense to be prepared for this level of attack. \_ You would have U.S. opinion, but you still sure about world opinion? \_ At that point who cares about world opinion? It would be an unquestionable act of war requiring an overwhelming military response, not a UN vote. \_ Yes, I agree, who cares. But you still sure about what you originally said about world opinion? \_ What I wonder is what they're doing about it. The article implies they "cheated" and forced artificial constraints on the "red" outfit (isn't that what US war games call the bad guys?) However, it also mentions that further outcomes are classified. One can only hope that part of that classified info is "oh shit, let's fix this." -John \_ Nice try, classify is the new buzzword for "We don't want this to be publicly known because it is rediuclous and we're never going to fix it." -mrauser |
| 2006/5/25-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43185 Activity:nil |
5/25 You must all see Baghdad ER. Playing repeatedly on HBO, and if you
don't have it, google for "baghdad er torrent", and it's the first
link. Speeds are very fast. This is the most relevant documentary
I've seen in a while.
\_ Does it have a liberal bias and/or contain liberal lies, or does
it have a narrowminded Neoconservative Republican-like slant?
\_ it tells it like it is. this was Army sponsored. I understand
the military guys like it, but the civilian leadership at the
Pentagon may not.
\_ How about saying why we "must" see it ... why it is good, what it
is about ... rather than just how to download it.
\_ http://csua.org/u/fzf (Wash Post)
Saluting Valor on the Medical Front Lines
"To read political motives into Baghdad ER, a poignant and
powerful documentary about military medical personnel working in
Iraq, would be to insult and diminish not only the film but also
its subjects."
\_ Okay, for all you people that are unconvinced, it has powered
surgical saws with limbs and flesh coming off people in pretty
graphic detail. With the added bonus that this stuff is happening
in Iraq right now, every day. |
| 2006/5/24-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43180 Activity:nil |
5/24 http://marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1823925.php "It's going to be extraordinarily difficult for them to find enough defense counsel", says Marine Corps attorney, regarding number of court martials which may result from investigations into alleged Haditha massacre |
| 2006/5/23-28 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43158 Activity:nil |
5/23 Iraq version of My Lai?
http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html
Consider that only few got slap on the wrist for My Lai, I sincerely
doubt anyone would end up getting punished for such behavior.
\_ Three officers have been relieved of command and given desk jobs.
Otherwise, the leadership would like this to remain as quiet as
possible until the investigation is complete, to balance news of
the alleged atrocity with publicity of jail time or dishonorable
discharges.
the alleged atrocity with publicity of court martials or
dishonorable discharges.
The spin will be that the people in those houses were aiding and
harboring insurgents, and there was some gunfire from there.
That doesn't change the rules of engagement, though, as far as
shooting people who do not have a weapon, aren't wearing a suicide
belt, and are running away from you.
\_ don't you think such behavior can only be stopped by severe
punishment such as death or extremely long sentense? otherwise,
switch to a desk job sounds more like a reward than punishment.
\_ basically, can the military lawyers prove that these guys
egregiously violated rules of engagement? If so, then they'll
get jail. If not, then they might just get discharges.
What other way is there to do it?
It's not unusual for the guilty to get away scott-free
because there was no videotape or Abu Ghraib photo CDs. |
| 2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43147 Activity:nil |
5/22 http://csua.org/u/fy8 (Wash Post) Dubya says, with the formation of the first permanent govt since Saddam's, that Iraq has reached a "turning point". Previously annonced turning points: http://csua.org/u/fy9 (martinirepublic.com) |
| 2006/5/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43110 Activity:nil |
5/19 Guantanamo Prison Guards, Inmates Clash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060519/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_clash
Further proof that these people are dangerous and we should
all support our glorious war in Iraq and Iran! -Republican |
| 2006/5/19-22 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43102 Activity:nil |
5/18 http://csua.org/u/fwy (latimes.com) Marine made famous by photo develops full-blown PTSD after coming home \_ That's nice... troll. When's the last time you stood for your fellow man without personal gain? \_ Kettle, the pot would like to know if that's your natural hair color. \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635067/posts |
| 2006/5/18-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43094 Activity:nil |
5/17 Freepers react to Murtha describing massacre of Iraqi civilians by
U.S. marines after a fellow marine died
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1634085/posts
\_ It's like reading National Geographic: fascinating, riveting, and
utterly alien. |
| 2006/5/18-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43092 Activity:nil |
5/17 Did you guys see the letter from Ahmadinejad?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12984.htm
\_ Translation issues aside, that is a frighteningly clear and
reasonable letter. I say frightening because I still think of
Ahmadi-Najad as a fundamentalist nutjob, but I wasn't aware he
was so articulate.
\_ He is/was a professor. Being a fundamentalist nutjob
doesn't mean you aren't intelligent (although they do tend
to be correlated).
\_ "Reasonable" in the sense that, as above poster put it very
well, nutjobs can still put up logically constructed
arguments. Much of what he writes is true. However, it
reminds me of a joke involving a bunch of people who visit
East Germany in 1975, and after being told for hours what a
great place it is, one of them asks the guide about the stasi,
oppression, and a whole bunch of other horrid things. The guide
snaps back, "Americans oppress their black people." -John
\_ Here in Berkeley that's not a joke, it's an inspiring
tale of a liberated East German "speaking truth to
power."
\_ I'm sure in Berkeley a lot of things would be
considered "inspiring tales" by people who haven't the
slightest clue what the fuck they're talking about. -John |
| 2006/5/16-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43073 Activity:nil |
5/16 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/world/middleeast/16cnd-iraq.html Sunnis trying to figure out how to do death squads "northeast of Baghdad, insurgents stopped a bus carrying 10 secondary school teachers and separated them by Muslim sect. Five Sunni teachers were allowed to go free, while the five Shiites were each shot in the head and killed." \_ Yes we can read news. Now go fuck yourself and read some slashdot. Fuck I've been trolled. Next time I may just delete your stupid political posts. \_ nah, it wasn't a troll. how often do you hear news about ten jr. high school and high school teachers getting pulled out of a bus, five Shiites being shot in the head, and the five Sunnis let go? if you live in iraq, you have to deal with this shit. yes, you and I personally are not in iraq, but, good to know IMO. \_ Let me try to present the carrot. Yes people are dying and the Iraq War was a total fuck up and Bush is dumb. **YAWN** Wait but there are so many cool things out there that are useful and relevant to YOU!!! For example I bought a Kinesis keyboard and learned to type using the Dvorak layout and it is literally the coolest thing out there since Mac OSX!!! I mean, aren't these things more productive and interesting to talk about than depressing things that you have absolutely no control of? I read engadget, slashdot, and such and I feel so much more fulfilled than before. CNN? Fox? NYT? Trash \_ now who's trolling? eh, anyway, I see your point. \_ His point? He has no point. If you don't like the post, ignore it. Go fuck yourself, yourself. |
| 2006/5/15-18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43063 Activity:kinda low |
5/15 I'm naive and don't know all the issues there, but it seems to me
that the root of the Iraq Civil War stems from the fact that three
major ethnic groups hate each other and don't like to run the
government together. Why can't they be split up into
three separate Emirates, each governing its own affairs while
having common Federal government-like structures like utilities
and the military?
\_ Short answer: the Turks (our allies) are violently opposed to an
independent Kurdistan, because they think that would inspire
further separatism among their own native Kurds; Iran would most
likely annex (or at least welcome under their protection) an
independent Shiite nation; and the Sunnis and Shia have wildly
different ideas of what's Shiite territory and what's Sunni.
That said, we may be heading in that direction anyway.
\_ I'm just waiting for the headline "Bush meets secretly with Saddam
for tips on running Iraq"
\_ All the oil is in the Shiite and Kurdish areas. Sunnis would love
to have a share of that distributed through a federal apparatus.
Shiites and Kurds would love to keep it, based on their people
sitting on it. How do you come to an agreement?
With Saddam it was easy: It all goes to Sunnis, and if you're
unhappy with that, you go into the woodchipper, feet-first.
\_ Did I miss something? Iraq Civil War? Anyway, the above already
answered your core question, but most of the problems in the
Middle East and Africa date back to European nations intentionally
carving up tribal groups, drawing artificial lines, and generally
creating such a huge mess of things that untangling them now is not
as simple as just drawing new lines. You'd just be making a new
mess to replace the old one. There's also this very new concept
of "international stability" which is all about everyone shutting
the hell up and dealing with whatever mess they've got. Wars of
conquest are no longer allowed. Wars to fix the broken European
lines are not allowed. Nothing is allowed. Buy Mcdonald's is
allowed. Those intentionally messed up artificial borders are the
root cause of things like the Hutu and Tutsi killing each other,
several famines, and a lot of other ugliness in that large part of
the world.
\_ So why doesn't Europe do more to fix these messes they've made?
\_ why would they? it was done intentionally and sometimes
through ignorance, apathy and/or expediency. what do you
think has changed that suddenly the european powers would
feel the desire to fix their previous messes? and where do
you come up with the idea that a) they have the power to do
so and b) the right? why don't the locals fix their own
messes and redraw their own borders in a more sensible and
equitable way?
\_ Where do you come up with the idea that I came up with
the idea that Europe can or should do anything you stupid
motherfucker. I merely asked why don't they.
\_ First, they weren't asked; if the UN had decided to
invade Iraq, it would have attempted to draw equitable
borders, but the UN was ignored so now it's our mess.
And second, there's no reason to believe that
Europe (or America for that matter) can draw borders
any better than the people living there. -tom
\_ They weren't asked to ruin these places by making
fucked up borders in the first place and that didn't
stop them.
\_ Therefore they should go in and make more
fucked up borders? Do you have a point? -tom
\_ Why are you limiting this discussion to Iraq?
Europe messed up Sudan, Kashmir, Rwanda also.
There's no shortage of other places to fix.
\_ When sectarian violence is killing hundreds, if not thousands,
of people every week, I don't know what you can call it but a
civil war.
\_ business as usual for that area.
\_ bushshit.
\_ its public info. go look up the death tolls for iraq.
\_ How 'bout you provide the info. This is a specious
claim.
\_ i don't know what you guys are arguing about, but
the Iraqi president said "1,091 people were killed
between April 1 and 30". About 260 per week.
In Baghdad only. Only bodies which got to the
morgue. |
| 2006/5/14-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Recreation/Travel] UID:43051 Activity:nil |
5/13 Is Dubai a nice city to visit? Is it expensive? Anyone have
recommendations?
\_ http://www.skidxb.com
\_ http://wikitravel.org/en/Dubai
\- if you want to buy gold jewelry or expensive watches.
i think you can entertaiin yourself there for 2 days
there are also various expat communities you could attempt
to hangout with or observe. beyond 2 days, i think you'ld need
to plan something rather than just wander around town. it certainly
wouldnt be the destination i'd pick unless you were going to shop,
and even then, it's not what i'd pick.
\_ All my friends/associates who lived or visited there said it
(and Qatar) were great places (a) to get out of Saudi Arabia to,
(b) if you have wads of cash, (c) if you don't mind 40 degrees
in the shade. -John
\_ (i think he means celsius. weirdo)
\_ I thought that was obvious from the context. -!John
\_ Oh sorry, I thought it was clear that a bunch of primitive
camel jockeys, along with the rest of the world, would not
yet have progressed to Fahrenheit. -John |
| 2006/5/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:43006 Activity:low |
5/10 Why is the troop death toll in Iraq so low? Technology! If someone's
gonna die, just stick in a feeding tube. Voila! One less death.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/10/iraq.medics
\_ so it is worse than Vietnam then.. our technology today
is just lowering the kill count
\_ "If you look at the overall death rate ... the case fatality
rate is cut in half from Vietnam to now. And again I think that's
due to better training, tactical combat casualty training,"
I dunno about worse or better. But to think about it: 2500 US
soldiers have died in about 3 years, the senior surgeon above
says that could be double without the better training, so it
potentially could have been 5000 US dead. We were in Vietnam
for ~13 years, so 4 times longer than Iraq so far means:
5000 * 4 = 20,000 hypothetical fatalities vs. ~50,000 in Vietnam.
\_ Yeah, but there are many reasons why the fatality rate
is so much lower; medical technology, training, night vision,
more effective body armor, etc. Lacking context, the
comparison doesn't really communicate very much.
\_ take into account the terrain.. the jungle was much
more difficult to spot.. in iraq it should be much easier
... we need tech to detech roadside bombs...
\_ Err, comparing the Vietnam era, draft military to the
current day armed forces is meaningless.
\_ traditionaly, we count casualties, not death.
casualties ~= death + injured + captured. By that account, we
have close to 20k casualties out of 110k+ force. The ratio is
relatively high due to the small total force committed.
\_ "Traditionally" "voila" - take any battle from any pre-vietnam
war. Learn what casualties really mean.
\_ so it is worse than Vietnam then.. our technology today
is just lowering the kill count
\_ "If you look at the overall death rate ... the case fatality
rate is cut in half from Vietnam to now. And again I think that's
due to better training, tactical combat casualty training,"
I dunno about worse or better. But to think about it: 2500 US
soldiers have died in about 3 years, the senior surgeon above
says that could be double without the better training, so it
potentially could have been 5000 US dead. We were in Vietnam
for ~13 years, so 4 times longer than Iraq so far means:
5000 * 4 = 20,000 hypothetical fatalities vs. ~50,000 in Vietnam.
\_ Yeah, but there are many reasons why the fatality rate
is so much lower; medical technology, training, night vision,
more effective body armor, etc. Lacking context, the
comparison doesn't really communicate very much.
\_ take into account the terrain.. the jungle was much
more difficult to spot.. in iraq it should be much easier
... we need tech to detech roadside bombs...
\_ Err, comparing the Vietnam era, draft military to the
current day armed forces is meaningless. |
| 2006/5/4-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42943 Activity:nil |
5/4 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq The Bush administration steps up efforts to make terrorists look inept. \_ the Dick Cheney of Al Qaeda..? |
| 2006/5/2-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42905 Activity:nil |
5/2 2/3 of Americans aged 18 to 24 cannot find Iraq on a map:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/02/geog.test
\_ This is not as important as the fact that most of the ignorant
18-24 year olds today are far more conservative than those in
the 60s-70s which is good news for the GOP for decades to come.
\_ I don't think they are "conservative." There are people who are
conservatives. But there are those just follow whatever
Bush says. I think majority of these people belongs to the
latter.
\_ In other news 2/3 of Americans aged 18 to 24 have more sex than you.
\_ In other news 2/3 of Europeans probably have more sex than you
and could identify Iraq on a map.
\_ If i bought you a plane ticket there, would you leave and
never come back?
\_ "...because we like 'murrica LOUD and STUPID"
\_ Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
\_ that's because they're all unemployed
\_ how about 75% of people think English is the most common native
language in the world? 1/3 can't find Louisiana? 14% believe
speaking another laugnage is a necessary skill?
\_ Go look up "necessary" in the dictionary. It isn't.
\_ English is probably the second most common... and why the
focus on "native"? English is still the most important
international language. Maybe that will change. But then
maybe it won't. How many Iraqis or Chinese can identify
Louisiana? Or El Salvador? And how would this skill affect
them anyway?
\_ gee, the Iraqis don't seem to be spending an enormous
portion of their federal budget on invading Louisiana. -tom |
| 2006/4/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42849 Activity:nil |
4/27 http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/archives/2006/04/041806.html First video blog that doesn't suck! -dans \_ That was actually funny. Thanks. --erikred |
| 2006/4/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42837 Activity:nil |
4/26 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060426/od_nm/iraq_uniforms_dc Become an Iraqi commando for only $24!!! Or dress up as a police man for only $15. |
| 2006/4/24-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42818 Activity:nil |
4/24 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060424/od_nm/germany_corpse_dc Illegal to drive a dead person in your private car. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060424/od_nm/germany_brothel_dc URL self explanitory http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060420/od_nm/germany_toilet_dc Germany and toilet, oh nevermind. \_ Censorship! Evil religious people forcing their view... oh, nevermind, they're Muslim. Ok then. \_ It is very simple. Muslims are willing to hurt or kill you, and have demonstrated this. The other guys mostly don't. I bet people would be a lot more respectful of Christians if they blew people up now and then. \_ You mean, like, go to a country, drop a few tons worth of bombs, leave a military presence to enforce policy, and try to install our own governing body? Right, it'll never happen..... \_ Well I'm referring to violence as punishment of "offending" religious sensibility. Iraq is plain ol' geopolitics. \_ You mean like Ireland? \_ Ireland is about ethnicity more than religion. They too aren't offending each other's religious sensibility. Muslims try to kill you if you create literature, documentaries, or cartoons they don't like. That's not what Northern Ireland is about. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060420/od_nm/germany_toilet_dc Germany and toilet, oh nevermind. |
| 2006/4/21-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42794 Activity:nil |
4/21 http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/04/18.html#a7955 After watching this, wouldn't you support tactical nukes on Iranian nuclear sites, too? \_ Um, even if his "if" weren't such a friggin huge one, and (another big one) if there were such a thing as a "tactical nuke," no. \_ It's funny and scary at the same time. She is SOOOO way off the mark! |
| 2006/4/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42790 Activity:low |
4/20 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12392859/site/newsweek Who says economy is bad in Iraq? \_ Finally. Thanks for sharing the good news! \_ freedom is not just priceless, but also profitable |
| 2006/4/12-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42738 Activity:nil |
4/12 The Revolt Against Rumsfeld, The officer corps is getting restless:
http://www.slate.com/id/2139777/?nav=ais |
| 2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42705 Activity:nil |
4/6 Man tells Dubya he has never been more ashamed of the leadership of
his country at North Carolina town hall
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060406/480/ncgh11404061755
(Notice the audience reaction)
\_ What about the reaction are we supposed to notice?
\_ doesn't it look a bit like Jerry Springer? |
| 2006/4/6-7 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:42699 Activity:nil |
4/5 Amusing little short story by Dan Simmons
http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message.htm
\_ After having slogged through Illium let me just say, wow
he can write crappy short stories as well!
\_ I prefer the smooth stylings of Don "No Soul" Simmons. |
| 11/23 |