Politics Foreign Europe - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/3/25 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36867 Activity:moderate
3/24    I keep hearing the news pronounce the name Schiavo as shy-vo
        instead of ski-avo (like the word for slave). Which is the
        correct pronounciation?
        \_ Should I say "Al Kay-Da" or "Al Kay-Ee-Da"? Should I say
           "Bin Lah-Den" or "Bin Lay-Den"? I really want to get it right
           because I don't want to disrespect them or anything. -tom
           because I don't want to disrespect them or anything.
           \_ Actually, it's Ahl Qah-ee-da. "Q" is more guttural than the
              English "K".
        \_ In the language of origin (Italian), it's "ski-avo".
           \_ True. In Italy bruschetta is pronounced brusketta but in the
              US it is almost universally pronounced brushetta.
        \_ The news pronunciation is the way the family pronounces it.
        \_ "zom-be"
2005/3/22-23 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36809 Activity:low
3/22    Hello fellow l0s3r5, I mean g4m3rz.  If you want a brain-dead RTS
        with lots of spiffy graphics and a wacko plot but for some reason
        you'll enjoy, try Act of War: Direct Action.  Still $38 at Fry's.
        \_ I would have gotten this except the French developers kept
           playing scenarios of nuking the white house.
           \_ sounds like a selling point!
           \_ What's wrong with that? I hate French people, but I hate
              the current administration even more.
              \_ Do you honestly hate French people? Or just go along with
                 that because it's cool. Now personally, I can find a lot of
                 things to complain about if I wanted about Frenchies but I
                 can do that about any group of people.
                 \_ I wish that America would exterminate the French gene
                    from the human race.
                    \_ That sounds like something Hitler would say!
           \_ Why do you care either way?  It's a game.  -John
              \_ If they were "just games" I don't think the Army would be
                 advertising so heavily on video game sites, and producing
                 their own video game.
2005/3/22 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36807 Activity:nil
3/22    Charlie lied, andt the Royal Bitch will become Queen after all.
        http://csua.org/u/bgi (Yahoo! News)
2005/3/18-21 [Finance/Banking, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36760 Activity:moderate
3/18    Hello, I've contacted my friend in UK who says an interest rate of 4%
        is not uncommon. He suggests that I look into the following big bank in
        UK: NatWest, LloydsTSB, HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland, and Abbey Bank.
        Indeed, they all have much higher interest rates than in the US. Here
        is the problem. They all have a requirement that you be a "Resident of
        UK." What kind of proof do they want as a resident of UK? I'm thinking
        that if I do e-banking, they shouldn't have to mail me anything...
        \_ You can get a CD at Wells for 3.75 over 22 months. Minimal
           deposit of 10K. Auto-rollover with higher yield at maturity. So why
           even fucking bother...
           \_ that's not so great. http://virtualbank.com has 3.75% for 18 months,
              or 3.95% for 24.
           \_ ING Direct in US is 3.6%, you put in/take out any time you want.
              \_ Try 2.6%  I wish it was 3.6%  Still damn good for short-term.
                 \_ http://emigrant-direct.com now at 3.25%. competition is good.
              ING Direct in UK is 5%. With devaluating dollars and the deficit,
              relative to the US it is more like 20%. Why even fucking bother?
              You do the long term math.
              And by the way my mom (over 60) has annuities, and gets over
              5% for a 5 year plan, so I did in fact have her open up an acct
              in her name for me.
              \_ Now what guarantee do you have that this trend will hold over
                 the long term? Then factor in the price of currency
                 exchange, and the fact that you probably don't have nearly
                 as ready access to your money.
                 \_ Ok, ideally I'd like to access the money within 1 month.
                    Overseas transaction falls within that timeline. Why
                    1 month? So that if I decide to use it to buy something
                    big like a down payment for a house or a condo investment
                    in Shang-hai, I can do so within 1 month. I know that
                    someone will ask me why not just buy a house.
                    I already have 2 houses, 1 rental. I don't want to
                    buy a 3rd house (not now). I have been thinking about
                    investing in Shang-hai as my friend's dad bought a
                    hi-rise floor that doubled in price in the last 1.5
                    year. But until I've made up my mind, I just want
                    to keep my money in a nice place. By the way, if you have
                    ANY idea what people in HK and Taiwan are doing with
                    their investments, you'll also have little faith in
                    crappy US currency as well. I don't want to know the
                    financial impact of a swarm of people (esp. Asians)
                    moving their assets outside of US as is happening now.
                    \_ Well, good luck to you. Just be aware that the dollar
                       has always rebounded in the past, and very strongly
                       against any Euro currency. If you really want to be
                       this anal about your investments you can go ahead and
                       dump it into gold. Also, be aware that the europeans
                       are running pretty large defecits themselves. Plus,
                       the europeans are much less dynamic in terms of
                       adjusting to global changes in the economy. You sound
                       like the geeks who kept on buying yens during the
                       late 80s, then the big miracle of Japan ended and
                       you were stuck with 120+ for years.
                       \_ actually the dollar has been falling over the
                          past 40 years.  OTOH, buying property in
                          Shanghai is highly risky.  Many think it's
                          at a local maxima.  As for a swarm of asians
                          moving their assets out of US, I think it is
                          exaggerated.  Asian central banks diversifying
                          is the big worry.  -yap
                          \_ Bank of Japan is pretty much propping up the
                             dollar all by themselves at this point. I think
                             they have 1T in dollar denominated bonds
                             right now.
        \_ probably valid ID.
        \_ If you can't open a UK bank account, how about buying 'blue chip'
           Pound-denominated corporate bonds?
2005/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36737 Activity:kinda low
3/17    How come CNN doesn't print Jackson's accuser's name, but BBC does??
        \_ Different editorial policies.
        \_ in case you didn't notice American media is fucked up. If you want
           fair and balanced news, you read ALL news sources, like ones from
           Japan, Germany, France, UK, Italy, and then make your own
           conclusions based on all the different sources.
           \_ All these countries' media are fucked up too, right?
              \_ But in different ways.  often predictable ways.
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/3/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36728 Activity:moderate
3/16    Yahoo News: http://tinyurl.com/6pky7
        Elephants paint a picture
        \_ This sounds like the work of Komar and Melamid:
2005/3/15-17 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36699 Activity:nil
3/15    tell me if you want pointers to foreign bond (long
        and short) fund, foreign reit fund, foreign utility fund,
        foreign inflation indexed debt fund.
        \_ I am interested in this. -ausman
          \_ same here, please tell us how. I don't want to keep money
             in useless US Money Market account since US dollar sucks.
          \_ ditto -nivra
        \_ No need to be mysterious. Just buy Dodge and Cox international.
           6% YTD. Average return of about 12% since 1968 or so.
        \_ Here you go:
           The above article talks about has BGT, MFD, IGR, EGLRX
           The above article talks about BGT, MFD, IGR, EGLRX
           Interest rate rises (US? / internationally?) could be bad for
           utilities and reit though, so I only bought BGT.
           Two foreign bond funds: RPIBX, BEGBX
           Like poster above me pointed out, Dodge and Cox ain't bad.
           You may also want to look into:
           You may also want to look into these int'l funds:
           BJBIX (8.76% since 11/22/05 not including dividends)
           TAVIX (6.44% since 12/27/05 not including dividends)
           BJBIX (8.76% since 11/22/04 not including dividends)
           TAVIX (6.44% since 12/27/04 not including dividends)
           I also like some of the Matthews Asian Funds for
           exposure to asia:
           exposure to asia. I think Asia excluding Japan
           has room to rise, but if PRC and Taiwan starts a war ...:
           EUROX for exposure to Eastern Europe and Russia (risky?)
           IFN for India (risky?)
           BHP for exposure commodities (but this has gone up quite a bit
           BHP for exposure commodities
           PBR for oil (risky?)
           MPGFX (my favourite US fund)
           US growth stocks starting to look tasty again, please fall some
           \_ Yeah, I already have 70% of my portfolio in international
              funds, mostly ETFs but I am curious about the REIT, utility
              and inflation indexed bonds. I have most of my 401k in MRIVX.
              \_ The only foreign fund my 401K offers is an EAFE index fund.
                 Yes, I thought BGT, MFD and IGR are interesting choices
                 to know about.
2005/3/14-15 [Science/Physics, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36681 Activity:moderate
3/14    Why Mormons shouldn't move to UK:
        \_ What the hell does any of that have to do with mormonism?  Or even
           religion at all?  Huh?
        \_ Hi troll! -emarkp (I had more Physics and Math than just about
           anyone else I knew in the CS major.)
           \_ yes, and the war in Iraq is the right decision, and Bush is
              right, and everyone who thinks otherwise will go to hell.
              \_ Woohoo!  You win the stupidest troll of the day award!
                 \_ I don't think that's possible, given the guy below.  -tom
                    \_ I assume you mean those 2 in the gay marriage
                       thread?  Yeah, I wrote this before those were
                       posted.  Maybe we need to take a vote.
                       \_ Tom's a fag, he's obviously biased.
              \_ Wow, didn't know the "rightness" of the war in Iraq was
                 scientifically measurable.  And no, I don't make pronouncments
                 about a person's eternal soul based on their politics.
                 about a person's eternal progression based on their politics.
                 Oh and sign your name.  -emarkp
         \_ I'd rather be a mormon than a fag.
            \_ is that because you are mormon?
               \_ You misspelled "moron"
            \_ Why, exactly?  And why have you given this thought?
               \_ Well, I'll just throw gasoline on the troll fire and comment
                  that the two aren't mutually exclusive. -emarkp
                  \_ Uh oh.  I don't think your metaphors are rowing with a
                     full deck of marbles.
2005/3/14-15 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36676 Activity:high
2/23    Happy Belated Soviet Armed Forces Day! -- !ilyas
        \_ Hairy thugs with Stingers >> Soviet armed forces.  -John
           \_ Don't misunderestimate the forces of Great Mother Russia.
                    \_ WTF is "misunderestimate"? Guys, use a dictionary,
                       and English isn't German, you shouldn't string
                       prefixes like this. You simply had to say
                       "underestimate" or the opposite "overestimate."
                       \_ I learned the word from Heil Bush Jr. - op
              That's what Heil Hitler did in 1942.  Don't become another
                          \_ "Heil"!="Herr"
              6th Army soldier with lice crawling out of your nose, pus
              coming out of your wounds, and frozen toes and fingers falling
              off when bandages were unwrapped.  Keep your sorry sissy arse
              for your swiss wench or for some French whores, and stay out
              of the eastern front, cause you will end up curled up in a
              shit-filled 30 below bunker hole shivering of cold and fright,
              crying and whimpering, out of wood and out of food, knowing
              that your fuhrer has abandoned you, and knowing that you will
              never see yer mama again.
              \_ Winning a war due to a combination of aid from your allies
                 and enemy strategic fuckups doesn't count.  -John
                 \_ It doesn't?  I thought that's all pretty much all wars
                    were won. -jrleek
                    \_ Tell Napoleon, Mannerheim, Pilsudski, and a host of
                       other brilliant generals who were simply "better".
                       Note that "strategic fuckups" != "tactical fuckups".
                        \_ Zhukov is brilliant too.
                           \_ Zhukov!
                           \_ Was, he's dead, and "we have more PPsH-armed
                              peasants than you have bullets" does not imply
                              brilliance, although you're probably right.
                 \_ the war was won by the courage and sacrifice of the
                    citizens of Great Mother Russia, including teenage
                    girls from a factory holding up an entire Panzer column
                    with AA guns when the Germans first attacked.
                                - RusCom Troll
                    \_ In 1941, war was beginning.
              \_ SU and Stalin probably had more "strategic fuckups" than
                 the Germans, but they still won due to the heroic Russian
                 \_ They won because they release all 'Zigs.
              \_ The lithium's behind the Advil. Go ahead. I won't miss any.
              \_ I thought Nazi's defeat was not due to the Red Army's
                 strength, but due to Soviet's strategy of burning everything
                 down to earth before they retreat.
                 \_ In other words, strategy.
                    \_ In other words, "ilyasing their country"
                    \_ "In other words"?  Isn't that the same word I used
                       above?  -- PP
                    \_ You know what you doing.
              \_ Was it a mistake for the Allies to ally with USSR against
                 Germany?  Would the world (western world at least) have been
                 better if we let the Soviets fight the Germans by themselves,
                 either winning eventually but at much higher cost or losing
                 \_ What if the winner ended up with the Bomb?
                    \_ Like the Russians did?
                       \_ We already had the bomb at that point, and the Nazis
                          were out of the picture.
                        \_ Somebody set us up the bomb!
                        \_ So? The winner still ended up with the bomb. Why
                           should we have allied with USSR?
                           \_ Germany with the bomb, controlling all of
                              Europe, would be a much more formidable opponent
                              than the USSR was. I think it was as simple game
                              of power politics.
        \_ where is ilyas and his funny trolls?
           \_ In SOVIET RUSSIA, Ilya trolls YOU!
                \_ For great justice.
2005/3/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36675 Activity:moderate
3/14    John please tell us how to open up an account outside of US, preferably
        an account in which you can have US as a permanent address and one that
        has a decent interest-rate to inflation ratio, like the UK pound or
        Australian $, thanks.
        \_ I have no idea about interest rates--continental European rates
           for bank accounts tend to be pretty abysmal, but you'd drop cash
           into a fund located in a disinterested country through a bank.
           Go to an outfit you like, such as http://www.llb.li (great service)
           and open an account.  If you can't, there are notary services that
           will do it for you.  I have no idea about Jersey/Monaco/Caymans and
           how they work, but most banks geared towards foreign clients tend
           to offer mail holding services for a small fee.  Regarding
           Australian $, Vanuatu had a lot of offshore account type activity
           last time I was there (~2 years ago) but at the time the
           Australians were trying to crack down on it.  That may have been
           targeted at .au citizens, though.  Most "civilized" banking
           countries also subscribe to some sort of money laundering provision
           or another; in Switzerland, ~100k CHF transactions are the lower
           limit at which they require proof of the provenance of the cash
           (i.e. no ill-gotten gains.)  If it's a tax dodge, do it in a
           country which does not consider it its responsibility to prosecute
           foreign income tax evasion (.ch is under massive pressure from the
           EU to start doing so.)  To get around this, some countries will
           charge you an "equivalence tax", i.e. around their approximation
           of what you'd be paying in your home country.  I'm not a banking
           expert, but if you have some specific questions that I can check
           out without too much effort, drop me a mail.  -John
           \_ You know ING Direct yes? ING Direct UK pays 5%, ING Direct Aus
              pays 5.2%, and ING Direct Spain pays 6%. I wonder how one could
              open accounts with foreign ING Direct.
        \_ Also, what is the goal:  If its to diversify RISK (eg, of the
           dollar dropping into the toilet), then just use foregin index
           funds and bond-index funds.
           \_ Good point, sorry, I was just assuming tax dodge.  -John
        \_ tell me if you want pointers to foreign bond (long
           and short) fund, foreign reit fund, foreign utility fund,
           foreign inflation indexed debt fund.
           \_ I am interested in this. -ausman
              \_ http://www.smartmoney.com/tradecraft/index.cfm?story=20041122
2005/3/12 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36661 Activity:nil
3/12    Errr... whoops.  The Italian general who was supposed to be
        keeping the Americans informed of the Sgrena rescue mission, was
        never told of the mission.
2005/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36659 Activity:nil
3/12    More Sgrena.  The Italian justice mister tells her to shut up.
        (More or less)
2005/3/10 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36637 Activity:nil
3/10    Okay, last one:
        http://csua.org/u/bby (latimes.com)
        In recent weeks, Bush administration officials have taken a far more
        conciliatory tone with some of America's oldest European allies.
        Whereas Rumsfeld once slighted NATO's western European members --
        referring to them as "Old Europe" -- he poked fun of those comments to
        win over European ministers during his trip to the continent last
        month. "That was Old Rumsfeld," he said.
        On Thursday, Rumsfeld hosted French Defense Minister Michelle
        Alliot-Marie at the Pentagon, praising the cooperation between the
        nations' militaries over the years.
        \_ You will never hear an apology from those demagogues that passed
           a House resolution renaming French Fries "Freedom Fries" or
           that NRO editor who called the French "Cheese Eating Surrender
           Monkeys." Actually, write that NRO editor and tell him what
           an idiot he is for me, okay? jonahnro@aol.com -ausman
2005/3/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36589 Activity:nil
3/8     Curious, did UK ever pass an anti-independence bill back in 1700's?
2005/3/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36588 Activity:kinda low
3/8     This is funny. Italy demands US punish killers. They just don't
        understand us. Back in 1999 we acquitted a reckless pilot who
        killed 20 skiers, how DARE these fucking Italians demand anything.
        We Are Great, Manifest Destiny, and God Bless America. -conservative
        \_ The journalist they shot is very opinionated and left wing (she
           writes for Il Manifesto, I believe.)  The whole sordid affair is
           a stupid, tragic mistake, and the dumb bitch (pardon me, but it
           really pisses me off) is really not helping anyone by agitating
           about it being a US conspiracy to avoid looking like they support
           compromises with hostage takers.  I only wish they'd left her to
           rot and tried to free some of the poor bastard South Asian truck
           drivers or other innocent hostages instead.  The thing with the
           pilot, on the other hand, was just a fucking travesty.  -John
           \_ Do you think she's pretty good looking for a 57 year old?
           \_ Actually, if I got shot up by American soldiers just a half mile
              from the aiport when the three security guys around me were
              ecstatic and we had all the confidence in the world that the
              Americans knew we were coming -- and someone suddenly put a
              spotlight on our car and blasted us for 10-15 seconds, the chief
              negotiator died on my lap and I got shrapnel in the shoulder, I
              might say it was a conspiracy, too -- that the American grunts
              were told by someone higher up in the chain of command to
              expect bad guys in a car similar to ours, but otherwise naive
              to our arrival.
              But, a day or two later, I might say, you know, maybe I
              overreacted, and it was probably an accident.
2005/3/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36567 Activity:very high
3/7     What are people's opinions on the Italian intelligence agent who was
        shot by US soldiers?  All reports seem to be fuzzy at best.
        \_ Not intentional.  All Italians driving to the airport and getting
           shot just before they got there, means they likely got an OK with
           some Americans on the way out, whether officers or CIA, even with
           the reports to the contrary ("They didn't tell us they were
           coming!" -- this is unlikely).  Probably some grunt in a mechanized
           platoon on patrol (not necessarily a checkpoint) freaked out when
           he saw the car full of buff brown people, screamed out to his
           squadmates, "INCOMING BOMBER", someone lit up the search light, and
           blew the car fucking away.  It was night after all.
           Naturally, those who would know best (the Italian intelligence
           officers and the soldiers who opened fire) are all cogs in the
           Machine and cannot speak.
           \_ it's clear that our sharp shooting Republican hick boys from
              Kentucky can't tell the difference between Italian and Iraqi
              \_ You're the Italians.  Are you screaming "We're Italians!"
                 because you saw the patrol a long ways ahead while not hitting
                 the fucking brakes, or are you screaming "We're Italian you
                 dicks!" because you're getting blown to pieces before you even
                 got the chance to brake?
                 \_ I scream "I'm jctwu don't shoot!"
                 \_ What's the fucking difference? Our country music listening
                    Bush loving armed forces can't tell the difference between
                    "Ala Akbar" and "Non Spari!"
                    \_ The difference is some sodan's incorrect assumption
                       that the inability of coalition soldiers to understand
                       Italian was a non-negligible reason for what happened.
        \_ From what I've read, she claims 300+ bullets were fired but pics
           of her car don't show any damage at all and it seems that the
           dude who was driving was killed by a single bullet. Unless the
           troops guarding that checkpoint were replaced w/ Imperial Storm
           Troopers, her story seems a bit fishy.
           \_ It's even worse than that.  First she says it was at a check
              point, then she says it wasn't.  (This should be easy to
              verify)  First she says they were driving slow, now in
              yesterday's article in her paper, she talks about how fast
              they were going.  (Almost losing control to avoid puddles,
              and yes, she says they were "suddenly attacked" going that
              fast. )  etc. She can't get her own story straight.  She
              talks about being able to pick up "handfuls of bullets" off
              the back seat, which is obvious BS.  She's a liar.  I had
              sympathy, but she's lost me.
              \_ Why do you think her claim to picking up "handfuls of bullets"
                 is obvious BS?
                 Don't you think the people who were with her could easily,
                 so easily refute this?
           \_ Your information is old.
              Search for "Maybe all 400 bullets missed?"
              Are you a moron?
              A guy died with a bullet to his temple, and the windshield
              in that photo isn't even cracked.
              Do you always believe the blogs over using your brain?
2005/3/7 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Health/Women] UID:36559 Activity:kinda low
3/7     Anyone else thinks that the wounded Italian communist journalist looks
        like Hillary?
        \_ A little bit. I have to say, she looks a LOT better than most of
           the 57 year old women I've known in my life.
           the 57 year old women I've known in my life. To hell, she looks
           better than a lot of the EECS women I've seen.
2005/2/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36444 Activity:very high
2/27    Peter Benenson died last week:
        \_ Now if only Amnesty International would die with him...
           \_ Fuck.  You.
              \_ Hey, I got no problem with the concept, but once they start
                 defending terrorists and cop killers, the implementation is,
                 in my book, obviously hopeless. -pp
                 \_ To what are you refering?  You're claiming something I
                    can't find any reference for.  Please give some context.
                    \_ Everyone in Abu Ghirab and Guantanamo Bay is a
                       terrorist, remember?
                       \_ *Everyone*?!  You're kidding, right?  I've been
                       \_ And torture is OK as long as they're bad guys.
                          \_ Hey, people say there's no intellectual diversity
                             on liberal college campuses like Cal.  The
                             pro-torture sysadmin faction proves that to be
                             false.  I think there are probably a good half
                             dozen motd posters who genuinely support torture.
                             \_ I think anyone who's had to deal with a
                                sysadmin wouldn't be surprised by their
                                pro-torture attitudes.
                       \_ You, sir, are the terrorist.
2005/2/25 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36416 Activity:high
2/25    Wired, how far you have fallen:
        \_ What the fuck are you talking about?
           \_ Wired used to be techno-libertarian, this is written
              by a Euro Socialist.
              \_ Lessig is a Euro Socialist?  Wow.
        \_ Op-ed piece about tech stuff, mildly sensationalist, about
           something of import to geek types?  Sounds like Wired. -John
        \_ Once again the invisible hand of the "free" market gives us
           the finger.
           \_ OK, dude, very basic again for those of you who were asleep
              in Econ 100A&B:  collusion, government lobbying, anything like
              that is NOT the invisible hand, the free market, capitalism, or
              anything along those lines.  Thank you, you may now go back to
              sleep.  -John
              \_ in other words, there's no such thing as the free market,
                 thus we can stop relying on it to solve our problems. -tom
                 \_ Haha.  Let's play a game called 'spot the flaw.' -- ilyas
                    \_ w00t!
                    \_ How about "spot the twit." Hey, it's ilyas! I win!  -tom
                       \_ w00t!  You both get a "w00t!" for entertaining the
                          rest of us.  A grateful motd thanks you both.
              \_ This is how every implementation of capitalism has been.
                 \_ Yeah, this kind of sounds like the people who defend
                    communism.  But in a perfect world...
        \_ Whyis a regular op-ed column by one of the most respectable legal
           scholars on constitutional and cyberspace law a problem? -dans
        \_ An article showing corporate corruption in government, applicable
           to tech stuff, this is inappropriate/wrong for what reason?
        \_ I agree with the article. The government can do something
           better than private enterprises because they are
           fundamentally different. Private enterprises are there to
           make money, governments are there to serve. If a company
           can suck $100 out of you, they will not sell for $99.
           Governments on the other hand just need to cover their cost.
                \_ At the same time, governments are technically not
                   looking for max profit, so they have less of a incentive
                   to minimize cost and maximize efficiency.  The company
                   may want to sell it for $100, but could sell it for $80
                   and a competitor is selling for $85 so it sells it for
                   $80.  The author has a point that if the government CAN
                   do it cheaper/better and it is for a service/product that
                   makes sense, it should.  Making laws prohibiting it from
                   doing that just because it eats into the bottom line of
                   some corporation is not a good enough justification for
                   not doing it.
        \_ Thanks for the link, it is somewhat interesting. While we're on
           this topic, may I suggest an excellent documentary that talks
           about similar topics? "The Corporation" is an extraordinary film
           about the creation of the American corporation, its legal
           organizational model, its global economic dominance, and its
           incredible ambition to influence every aspect of culture in its
           unrelenting pursuit of profit. You can rent it in Blockbuster,
           Netflix, or buy it on http://Amazon.com
           \_ you can get a preview here:
2005/2/19 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36248 Activity:nil 75%like:38773
2/19    So, do we still have to call them Freedom Fries?
2005/2/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36243 Activity:nil 76%like:36239
2/18    Winning Their Hearts And Minds:
        http://csua.org/u/b46 (Christian Science Monitor)
        \_ That dude needs to get a talk radio show.
        \_ Interesting article, thanks.  (Note: link not BS from pundits)
        \_ Dear kchang, it would be nice if your motd archive can translate
           shortened url (csua.org or tinyurl) into actual url since the latter
           tends to remain valid longer.  Many ppl read links from the archive
           when they have time rather tha following the motd live.
           \_ dear anonymous person, if you move your mouse over the URL,
              you'll see a summary and the actual url. And if you go to the
              entry, you'll see the entire cache up to 8K. Try the following
              url. This feature has been around since May of last year:
              Is this feature good enough for you?
2005/2/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36239 Activity:high 76%like:36243
2/18    Winning Their Hearts And Minds:
        \_ That dude needs to get a talk radio show.
        \_ Interesting article, thanks.  (Note: link not BS from pundits)
        \_ Dear kchang, it would be nice if your motd archive can translate
           shortened url (csua.org or tinyurl) into actual url since the latter
           tends to remain valid longer.  Many ppl read links from the archive
           when they have time rather tha following the motd live.
           \_ dear anonymous person, if you move your mouse over the URL,
              you'll see a summary and the actual url. And if you go to the
              entry, you'll see the entire cache up to 8K. Try the following
              url. This feature has been around since May of last year:
2005/2/2 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36033 Activity:insanely high
2/2     In spite of what libertarian commentators like to claim,
        Europe is outperformaing the US economically by almost
        any measure:
        \_ What do you define as "Europe"?  France, Germany, Poland, the UK,
           Luxembourg and Greece are about as heterogenous economically as it
           gets.  That aside, there is a raft of problems (and advantages) not
           present in the US.  The key word you're looking for is "different."
           As for the libertarians, there are some areas where "European"
           bureaucracy is oppressive to business compared to the US, and
           others where companies have a very free hand.  YMMV.  -John
        \_ Germany has highest unemployment since WW II. I do not envy
           Europeans. Only the massive US debt is an issue for Americans.
           If that can be tackled then the EU has no hope at all. If it
           can't then it still might have no hope.
           \_ The Europeans are now more productive per hour than the
              Americans. They used to be less, much less productive.
              How is this trend in our favor again?
              \_ They still work fewer hours and fewer of them work. The
                 real threat now is China, not the EU.
                 \_ I believe OP's contention is not about the EU as threat but
                    rather as a possibly superior economic model.
                    \_ "Economic threat"
                    \_ Well OP makes the stupid mistake of taking "EU" and not
                       "aspects of certain EU countries".  -John
           \_ http://www.thinkandask.com/news/jobs.html
              What are the comparative employment rates?
              \_ http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/15/32504422.pdf
        \_ GDP growth.  http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/0/17/19230458.xls
           \_ What is comparable GDP/person? We all know that the
              population growth rate is higher in the US. That does
              not really help me as an individual worker. Over the
              last decade, twenty years, thirty years and fourty
              years, GDP growth per person has been comparable.
              \_ Not growth, but only Norway has a higher GDP per capita than
                 the US. http://csua.org/u/ay0
        \_ The statement is based on data from csls.ca .  (BTW, they misspelled
           the title of the csls paper.  It should be "Output per Hour" instead
           of "Output per House".)  Given the higher relative cost of labor
           in Europe, it is completely reasonable that Europeans are more
           productive per hour.  (Similarly, Europe's relatively rare farm-
           land are more productive than the US.)  The scarcity and the cost
           of the resource guarantees the employer (and the farmer) invest
           more in productivity.  In fact, if you look at general labor
           productivity (not per hour), The US has been outperforming EU
           by large strides in the last couple decades.
           by large strides in the last couple decades, most of that based on
           the large number of hours worked by US employees.
           It is perhaps more accurate to say that Europe has been outperforming
           the US economically in *one* measure that is not significant at all.
           \_ No, you either did not read or did not fully understand
              the URL provided. In GDP/person, the EU has grown faster than
              the US in the last 15 years. In productivity per hour worked,
              the EU has gone from behind the US to leading the US. In
              ROI, the EU has been catching up. In total public debt, the
              EU has caught up. In short, every significant comparable economic
              measurable, the US has gone from a large lead to a small lead
              and in some cases no lead at all.
              and in some cases to no lead at all.
              \_ Hmmm, you are right.  Europe should brace for the imminent
                 brain drain from the United Stated as more and more
                 professionals realize they are better off working for the new
                 winning team. -- ilyas
                 \_ My French coworkers here are all rather disparaging of
                    the countrymen they've left behind in France.  Perhaps it's
                    an Ecole Polytechnique thing.
                    \_ My French coworkers here are all very happy to be
                       away from France. My French acquaintances still in
                       France are feverishly trying to get the hell out.
                       \_ That's sort of what I was trying to get at.  If EU
                          economic model is so superior, why are so many
                          european professionals and scientists so desperate
                          to get out of there?  -- ilyas
                          \_ Ummm.. because they're stupid?
                          \_ Perhaps you hang out with a desperate and
                             unhappy crowd. Do you have any evidence that
                             is not anecdotal that this is true?
                             \_ Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence that
                                points the other way?  Or even anecdotal
                                evidence?  All I see is a lot of foreign
                                professionals settling here to work, and
                                foreign scientists getting tenure here.
                                I don't see much traffic the other way.
                                Except John, but (a) he is a commie mutant
                                traitor and (b) .ch isn't even a part of
                                Europe, they are like their own planet.
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Trust the compter.  The computer is your
                                \_ Yes, read The Economist.
                                   \_ On a slightly unrelated topic, I read
                                      an article in the Economist on
                                      'sister Hillary,' where the author
                                      was gushing about Hillary's 'maturity
                                      and ambition' as a politician, because
                                      she decided to pay lip service to the
                                      faith vote.  I found that an interesting
                                      comment -- she comes across as a lying,
                                      insincere scumbag to me when she does
                                      stuff like that.  Kind of like her
                                      husband.  Of course, being the biggest
                                      scumbag may be what maturity and
                                      ambition means in politics. -- ilyas
                             \_ Take a look at the enrollment figures of
                                US grad schools.
                                \_ I have, and the numbers are down.
                                   \_ 'The numbers are down' because less
                                                                     \_ fewer
                                      people are being let in (due to
                                      procedural post 9/11 issues), not
                                      because less people want to come here.
                                      No cigar for you.
                                      \_ Bullshit.  The "procedural 9/11
                                         issues" are that the student visa
                                         system is completely fucking broken.
                                         I know grad students who are afraid
                                         to even go to canada for a conference
                                         because even though all their visa
                                         stuff is ok, there's some random
                                         chance that they'll get stuck in canada
                                         for so long they have to go back to
                                         their home country.  For people from
                                         countries where they're desperate,
                                         they try anyway, and the acceptances
                                         are down, but for countries like
                                         germany you better believe people
                                         are turning down US positions becuase
                                         they don't want to put up with the
                                         moronic bullshit.  And applications
                                         to Canadian schools are up.  Our
                                         broken-ass visa system isn't just
                                         letting terrorists in, it's seriously
                                         undermining American science. I'm not
                                         pp, and I'm not disagreeing with you
                                         about professionals in general, just
                                         about students and post-docs in the
                                   \_ You do understand that does not mean
                                      that european professionals are not
                                      leaving in an absolute sense.  Also,
                                      rather unfortunately, I don't know of
                                      any foreign student statistics that
                                      breakdown based on the quality of the
                                      local school (is the student attending
                                      Joe's Foreign Language Institute of
                                      Berkeley or UCB?).  I would not lament
                                      the loss of the Joe's Foreign Language
                                      Institute of Berkeley population.
                                      \_ Albert H. Teich, director of
                                         science and public policy at
                                         the American Association for
                                         the Advancement of Science,
                                         which signed the statement,
                                         wrote that not improving the
                                         visa situation "will do
                                         irreparable harm to
                                         scientific progress as well
                                         as U.S. competitiveness."
                                         "A survey of major graduate
                                         institutions, conducted by
                                         the Council of Graduate
                                         Schools, found a 6-percent
                                         decline in new foreign
                                         enrollments this fall, the
                                         third year in a row with a
                                         substantial drop."   -tom
              \_ Mea culpa.  I should have made it clearer.  When I said
                 "general labor productivity (not per hour)", I was referring
                 to Annex Table 12 "Labour productivity in the business
                 sector", which specifically is *not* about productivity per
                 hour.  In fact, I specifically allowed that the producitivity
                 per hour is lower in the US ("it is completely reasonable...").
                 However, the labor productivity per capita has been growing
                 much faster in the US, likely because of the greater number
                 of hours worked by US workers.  Similarly, GDP per hour
                 worked is higher in many other nations, but US is almost
                 tops in GDP per capita.
                 \_ Granted. But how much longer will this continue,
                    with current trends?
                    \_ Well, GDP and productivity growth in the US has been
                       faster in the US for most of the last couple of decades.
                       And it's really not that we've been working *more*
                       hours, it's more that other countries have been
                       working *fewer* hours.  The number of hours worked
                       has pretty much stayed unchanged in the US since 1980,
                       but has been dropping elsewhere.
                \_ Thanks for this interesting info. This is the sort of
                   thing I was looking for. (why is this deleted? is being
                   polite a censorable offence on the motd now??) -OP
2005/1/31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35996 Activity:moderate
1/31    I take it back, German socialism has my approval:
        \_ That's really sick.  No one ought to be forced to sell his
           or her body for other people's sexual jollies.
        \_ Mmm.  Emergent behavior.
        \_ Ok this is really funny.  An obvious fix to this insanity is to
           add male prostitute as a "forced job" -- Those laws will get fixed
           instantly.  Kind of like how in Japan the government was dragging
           their feet for 10+ years on the abortion pill (is it legal yet?)
           but Viagra was instantly approved.
           \_ The Japanese govt. was dragging its feet on _the pill_, not
              Plan B. As in, omgwtf?
                \_ Right, it's even worse than I remembered.
2005/1/30-31 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35983 Activity:very high
1/30    When Germany fell and the US/European/Russia took over, how long
        did they occupy Germany? How long did loyal Nazi youngs and
        insurgents attack the Americans and Russians? How long were
        E/W Germany occupied before each had setup their own
        governments? I'm curious because perhaps we could draw some
        parallels and make better guesses as to how much longer the
        insurgents will continue before they gave up, and how much
        longer our troops will be in Iraq.
        \_ Very good questions. I read about the situation in France in 1945,
           and it was pretty bad.  There was a frenzy of revenge killings of
           'collaborators.'  No courts, or anything.  It was allowed to
           continue for a while too, because it was felt that the people
           needed to 'vent.'  So many unsavory things happened in WWII.
           Maybe time reduces the perceived magnitude of things -- all the
           crap back then was much much bigger than anything today,
           Iraq included.  -- ilyas
           \_ tell us about the Russian Jews!
        \_ Not many insurgents in Germany--they just kind of fell apart, and
           Their sense of order (unlike some places, they're a reasonably
           civilized country aside from the occasional 6-million-worth slipup)
           kept them in line.  Plus they were probably right sick of getting
           blown up by 1000-bomber fleets and hordes of very angry Russians.
           There were some SS plans for and attempts at guerilla gangs (look
           up "werewolves") but all in all nothing came of it.  Occupation
           lasted until present, and they were allowed to have an army again
           around 1954.  The Bundesrepublik itself was set up around 1948, so
           the whole Iraq election would seem to support that pattern.  -John
           \_ present=2004. 2004-1945=59 years. You're guessing that we'll be
              in Iraq for at least 59 years? Hm. Also a lot of good things
              came out from Germany occupation, like getting the best
              scientists. What good things will come out from occupying Iraq?
              In my opinion I don't think Iraq and Germany have much in common
                \_ Try 100+ Billions of barrels of oil, which we cannot live
              \_ It would not surprise me.  The western Allies stayed in .de
                 initially to prevent it from arising again, and later because
                 they were facing off against the Soviets.  Scientists, NATO,
                 trying to build a strong democratic partner and establishing
                 permanent bases were just facets of an overall strategy of
                 presence--the US has not been at war with a democratic nation
                 during this century (barring some questionable interference
                 in other countries' domestic politics) so it makes sense to
                 (a) try to build democracies, and (b) stay there to make sure
                 they remain democratic--your ideal result will be an ally
                 which doesn't attack you.  Now take a look at a world map and,
                 forgetting for a moment about whether it's right or wrong,
                 try to convince me in light of current strategic alignments
                 that it doesn't make sense for the US to hang around Iraq for
                 some time.  -John
        \_ Germany was broken by 1945, not like Iraq, where the army just
           melted away to fight as insurgents.  Also, Germany did not have
           1 billion muslim sympathizers supporting them.  Also the Germans
           under the Red Army's occupation were just scared to death, with
           the Red Army's reputation for brutality and mass rape, while
           Germans under Allied occupation were just glad they weren't under
           the Russians, so why make trouble.
        \_ The most important difference: Iraqis didn't kill millions of
           Americans. Heck, they didn't even start the war.
           \_ Uh, overall US casualties in WWII (both theaters) were around
              400k dead.  -John
        \_ Germans weren't relgious extremists either.
           \_ THe people weren't but you cant' say the same thing about
              the leadership. The cult of Nazism was very strong. Look
              at the runes next time you see propaganda film from that era.
2005/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35940 Activity:kinda low
1/27    I keep reading about how the US will lose jobs to China. What
        about Europe? Aren't they in the same boat?
        \_ No, they're busy losing jobs to E. Europe.  -John

[ k ]
2005/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Recreation/Sports] UID:35935 Activity:nil
1/27    9 year old professional athlete in soccer??
2005/1/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35787 Activity:kinda low
1/19    Is this unethical?  Filming of GG Bridge suicides?
        \_ I, personally, don't have any problem with someone filming the
           suicides, but I do have a problem with him lying to the
           officials about his motives.
        \_ It's unethical to lie to get permission to place your cameras on
           GG land, but not unethical to film suicides in a very public place.
           They may have had an ethical obligation to try to prevent any
           suicides they saw in progress, and it sounds like that's what they
           \_ Does the "Good Samaritan" law in France apply to people trying to
              commit suicide?
        \_ Faces of Death
2005/1/8 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:35606 Activity:nil
1/7     U.N.'s rape for food program exposed.
2005/1/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35592 Activity:nil
1/7     http://csua.org/u/ama
        "Also, in an apparent sign that American relief agencies want to keep a
        lower profile, several trucks delivering supplies from U.S. AID removed
        large banners marking the source of the shipments."
        \_ Use you brain. They're in a muslim part of the world, they're also
           in a low security part of the world, especially with the
           disaster. Easy targets for extremists with twisted agendas.
2005/1/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35551 Activity:high
1/4     [WARNING: Libertarian love-fest below]
         \_ Warning: communist dumbass above
            \_ thanks for the case in point, false dichotomy, and needless
               \_ What makes you think there was any dichotomy?  Or that the
                  invective was needless?  Here's another question:  which of
                  the following responses are "libertarian love-fests"?
        Updated govt. aid figures:
        Australia:      $765m
        Germany:        $680m
        Australia:      $810m
        Germany:        $674m
        Japan:          $500m
        US:             $350m
        \_ Australia's up to $1b now.  The bidding is amazing.
        \_ Politicizing disaster relief is sickening.
           \_ http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20050105
              \_ What?  Isn't Sri Lanka a Buddhist country instead of Muslim?
              \_ *cringe* Given Sri Lanka's history of "disappearing" rebels
                 and collaborators (i.e., from both sides), the second thought
                 that crossed my mind on hearing of the disaster was "Will
                 either side take advantage of the confusion to get rid of
                 rivals?" The same thought could well be applied to Aceh in
           \_ Egeland, the UN Humanitarian Chief, calls this "competitive
        \_ How much has been given privately?  How much does it cost for our
           carrier group and soldiers to be over there helping?
           \_ ssshhhh!
              \_ Sorry, didn't mean to feed the trolls.
           \_ Yeah, but do the Indonesian people think that way?
              \_ Who cares?
        \_ Americans give privately, not through their government. (As it
           should be.) Why don't you add up the contributions to, say, the
           International Red Cross by country?
           \_ Huh, well, personally I believe that forced charity is the
              only real charity.
2005/1/5 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:35547 Activity:high
1/4     Updated govt. aid figures:
        Australia:      $765m
        Germany:        $680m
        Japan:          $500m
        US:             $350m
        \_ Politicizing disaster relief is sickening.
           \_ http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20050105
        \_ How much has been given privately?  How much does it cost for our
           carrier group and soldiers to be over there helping?
           \_ ssshhhh!
              \_ Sorry, didn't mean to feed the trolls.
           \_ Yeah, but do the Indonesian people think that way?
              \_ Who cares?
2005/1/4 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35536 Activity:moderate
1/4     Why did Sweden lose so many more people in the tsunami compared to
        other countries like Australia, Germany and France with much larger
        population?  Are Indonesia and Thailand extremely popular tourist
        destinations among Swedes?
        \_ Yes. There were a lot of Swedes there.
           \_ Yeah my Swedish relative told me they have lots of flights
              there from Sweden at pretty good rates. Swedes have long dark
              winters so they like to go to warm places then using their
              long communist vacations. Speaking of Swedes, http://thepiratebay.org
              is a great bittorrent site!
        \_ Can't speak to Sumatra, but Phuket and Krabbe have (had?) a lot
           of Aussie and German tourists.
2004/12/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35460 Activity:low
12/28   http://tinyurl.com/4agjg
        (SI/cnn.com article regarding swimsuit model who survived)
        Is it me or is this a very arrogant article, considering how many
        thousands have died? Or is it in fact appropriate because it's
        sports illustrated reporting it?
        \_ I don't really think so.  Two reasons, A) It's really difficult
           to empathize with 50,000 people you never knew existed, and B)
           people always want to read about the survivor.  It's a
           pretty crazy story, she clung to a palm tree for 8 hours with a
           broken pelvis and internal injuries.
        \_ In SEA people are hearing all kinds of harrowing tales. I think
           it is just SI choosing one for its market. Everyone who survived
           either was lucky enough to be on high "ground" or went through
           the wringer and somehow came out w/o a broken neck, smashed
           head, impalement, etc.  80% of stories I read pivot around
           "luckily, the wave tossed me into a tree/window/roof" such that
           the survivor avoided the churn and under currents.  Quite a few
           were swept to sea and rescued, as well.
2004/12/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35447 Activity:high
12/26   Dear soda Francophones:  What is the proper way to pronounce
        'Noilly Prat'?
        \_ approximately "nwaYEE pra".
           \-bonjour, as with "Moet" as in Moet && Chandon, the t in "Prat"
             is pronounced. Proper nouns may not follow the usual rules
             [sometimes for arbitrary reasons, sometimes for "good" reasons,
             like it isnt originally a French name]. General rule for French
             is to pronounce these final consonants: CaReFuL. chevaL blanC,
             pinot noiR, neuF. I am not sure whether "Prat" or "Pratte" would
             be better (not that anybody could tell), but it is not "Pra".
             ok merci. --psb
             I think it is often reasonable to pronounce foreign words
             in the "natrual" manner of the local language... say with "Paris"
             in the "natural" manner of the local language... say with "Paris"
             but not always ... Lyons. ok merci. You may enjoy attempting
             to pronounce "Reims". --psb
             \_ You do not pronounce final 'c' or 't'.  No Frenchman I have
                ever met would pronounce 'prat' like that.  Otherwise it's
                'pratte' (feminine) which doesn't exist.  Yes, my dad's a
                French teacher.  Sorry, Partha.  Final 't' is only
                pronounced before a starting vowel in the next word (Moet
                et Chandon).  -John
                \-The pronounciation of the T in Moet is not the ellision
                  with the "et". I will happily bet you a bottle of moet
                  on this. you can call up the House of Moette and ask them.
                  Your parent will surely know proper nouns commonly have
                  exceptions. you dont pronounce the final c? how do *you*
                  say medoc, languedoc, cognac, listrac, armagnac, pauillac?
                  what is the former french unit of currency? --psb
                \_ ooooo, John kicks psb's butt! I love John. By the way,
                   I notice that there are similarities between the Swiss
                   yoddlers and the Bavarian country people in those Bavarian
                   festivals, do they speak similarly or something? What's
                   the connection? ok thx.              -John #1 fan
                   \-http://www.superbrands.org/242 just google for
                     "pronounce moet". somewhat ironically, "prat" is
                     english slang for a doofus or lamer, as in "john is
                     being a prat". --psb
                     \- There appears to be a WEEB site for Noilly Prat.
                        Maybe somebody can watch the video and settle this ...
                        I have broken Flash on my computer. It does confirm
                        "Prat" is a last name. http://www.noillyprat.com --psb
                        \_ On the video 'Since 1813...' they pronounce the two
                           names seperately.  'Noilly' is nwa-YEE, as others
                           said. 'Prat' is pronounced hard, as in the word
2004/12/22 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35408 Activity:very high
12/22   Ferengi are a caricature of Capitalists.  Are there any
        caricatures of socialists/communists in ST?
        \_ Borg?
           \_ I was thinking about that.  But that Borg are so much cooler
              than the Ferengi
              \_ It's true that the Borg are far cooler.  I am fascinated by
                 eusociality myself.  Capitalism is mundane and boring and
                 banal and ugly.  Like the Ferengi.  It works though. -- ilyas
        \_ The Federation == Canada
           \_ The Federation is Roddenbery's wet socialist fantasy.  There's
              no money in the Federation (because they eliminated scarcity using
              the matter creation stuff).  But then, inter-species trade seems
              alive and well.  This is never really explained.  You can't really
              \_ The Federation's credit in infinite
              make a medium of exchange of value go away. -- ilyas
              \_ I thought they used "gold pressed latinum" or something, at
                 least in DS9.  I think maybe the star trek universe is
                 just not internally consistent on this subject.
           \_ no way, Picard has too much balls to be Canadian
              \_ perhaps he's really Quebecois.
              \_ Picard has balls? Could have fooled me.
           \_ Federation ~ EU/UN. I say this b/c each of the worlds/systems
              in the Federation has its own government and sends ambassadors
              to the Federation council rather than representatives to the
              Federation congress/senate/parliament.  This is more like the
              set up of the EU/UN. I agree that the Federation started as
              some sort of socialist fantasy but the Federation hardly
              resembles that anymore. It is more like a EU/UN where the US
              basically calls the shots. Earth seems to get its way all the
              time is generally the most heavily defended planet. Earth also
              seems most like the US rather than Canada or Europe in terms
              of the behavior of its people and leaders.
        \_ Romulans => Romulus ~ China, Vulcan ~ Japan/Taiwan. Okay the
           history doesn't quite work out since Romulans fled from Vulcan
           but the rest is pretty similar.
           Klingons might work too b/c they were supposed to be equiv.
           to the Russians. Lots of similarities (ST6 => moon blowing
           up ~ Chernobyl, Errand of Mercy ~ Russia v US in a small
           south east asian country, just to name a few).
           BTW, the Cardassians seem to line up with Germany w/ Bajorans
           ~ the Jews. Not sure what to make of the Dominion or the
           Breen (or any of the stupid races on Voyager).
        \_ it's evident that the Enterprise runs like communism. Everyone
           there is stuck on the ship for the rest of their lives,
           and they all have the same uniforms. In fact, it seems that
           everyone from the future dresses the same. I guess at one time
           or another someone decided that individualism sucks for one
           reason or another and made everyone dress the same way.
2004/12/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35385 Activity:high
12/21   http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/12/21/sudan.darfur.dead
        If the US wants to bring Democracy to the world, why isn't it
        helping Darfur? 70,000 dead is... more than we killed the Iraqis.
        \_ If those 70,000 dead bodies could be converted into 200 Billion
           barrels of oil, we'd be there in a flash!
        \_ USA never cared about democracy.  We talked about it, but it's
           always our imperial interest that comes first.
           We are also racist in heart.  It's unfortunate, because Darfur
           would be a perfect opportunities to wage propaganda war countering
           Osama Bin Ladin's rhetroic, casting doubt on Osama's claim that
           Arabs are under siege.
2004/12/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35372 Activity:high
12/21   http://tinyurl.com/3hwmn
        US Slips in Attracting the World's Best Students
        \_ The article indicates a decline in number of students
           (nothing new there) and does *not* in any way make statements
           about the "world's best".  Quoting the article title (even from
           the nyt) is inappropriate here because the claim isn't backed up.
           \_ As far as graduate study, the US has always attracted the best.
              Therefore, any drop in students means the best are looking
              \_ Was every grad student who came to the US from abroad
                 "the best"?  Your logic is weak.
                 \_ Heh. Some I've met were very good. Most were just willing
                    to take more abuse from their advisors than homegrown
                    students who can walk and get paid better elsewhere.
                    \_ You're already limited by self-selection.  When's the
                       last time you visited the campus of say Golden Gate
                       University or St. Mary's?
                       \_ I apologize for being dense, but I'm not getting your
                          point. What is it about those schools?
                          \_ The foreign student population at less selective
                             universities are most likely even less bright
                             than the dullards you've met at your school.
                             Then there are the lowest tier "colleges" where
                             education play second fiddle to the primary task
                             of providing foreign "students" with paper work
                             so they can enter the US.
                             \_ I'm constantly amazed at the number of
                                Japanese attending Jr. college in CA.
                                \_ JC is positively Harvardesque compared to
                                   some of the most egregious visa mills.
                                   http://brandoncollege.com for example.  Are we
                                   losing visa mill students or are we losing
                                   MIT students?  The distinction is important
                                   and unaddressed.
                 \_ As is your grasp of the obvious.
                    \_ Unfortunately, your grasp of subtlety is even weaker.
              \_ From TFA:
                  "Other countries are just starting to expand their capacity
                  for offering graduate education. In the future, foreign
                  students will have far greater opportunities."
                  This is good news for non-US students--they won't necessarily
                  have to come to the US for grad studies (because it's no
                  longer the only game in town).
        \_ That's ok, those best students are never the right races.
           \_ The dirty Arabs want to corrupt our precious bodily fluids.
              \_ You say that like it's a bad thing...http://csua.org/u/agp
2004/12/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35170 Activity:very high
12/4    If you knew that the dollar was going to totally collapse tomorrow
        where would you put your money?
        \_ Fuck the Euro. I wouldn't put money in the Euro. Buy gold.
           The Euro is no more or less stable than the buck, and if the buck
           starts to fall exceedingly drastically, the Euro wouldn't be far
           \_ Just wait until the full cost of letting Poland & friends into
              the EU becomes apparent.  And now they've got Turkey & others
              lusting for membership...if you believe that the value of a
              currency is based on the long-term stability of its issuer, I
              wouldn't be so enthusiastic about Euros.  -John
        \_ The Euro
           \_ Euro based bond-index funds
              \_ So, you guys figure that the *total* collapse of the dollar
                 would not kill the Euro as well?  Really?
                 \_ I assume that op means "totally collapse" metaphorically,
                    not literally. Like drop another 50% or something. No one
                    is anticipating that the dollar will become worthless,
                    like the pre-WWII Deutschmark.
           \_ So why *is* the Euro supposed to be such a swell place to put
              all of your cash, anyway?  People say "massive U.S. deficits,
              U.S. economic woes, blah, blah -- Europe is safer!" -- but can
              you name a Eurozone country that's not *also* running giant
              deficits proportional to GDP, or that has an unemployment rate
              that's the same or lower than America's?  Moving your money
              from dollars to Euros hardly seems like a flight to
              safety/quality -- more like a typical rose-colored liberal
              "Europe must be better!" response.  I'd think that the Yuan is
              the place to be for the future ...
              \_ The yuan is controlled by the Chinese government and not
                 the free market. I think that perhaps Pounds Sterling
                 or the yen might work instead of the Euro.
                 \_ Comparing apples with apples, basically every currency
                    is controlled by some form of government intervention.
                    \- not meaningfully true: high K mobility, floating exch
                       rate, monteary independence: pick any two.
                 \_ Um... Japan has ben in recession for 14 years because
                    they can't work out their bank system.  I guess the
                    currency is stable though.  It's sucked for 14 years.
                    I guess it can't go down though...
               \_ Why do you think the market is favoring the Euro? The EU
                  has a lower overall debt, a smaller trade deficit, higher
                  overall productivity per hour worked, etc. US vs EU
                  unemployment figures are deceptive, because of the different
                  way each society offers unemployment benefits. A much
                  more accurate picture would be to look at overall
                  employment, as a percentage of the adult population.
                  The US and EU are similar here.
        \_ My ass.
           \_ so, you put your money where your mouth is?
        \_ Where I have it now.  -John the Eurofag
        \_ Gold coins.
        \_ I'm thinking about getting into bowhunting- danh
        \_ Ammo, rice and wool blankets.  If the dollar collapses
           tomorrow a hell of a lot of good your euro's or your
           gold is going to do you if you can't feed or clothe
           yourself and protect your gold/euros.
           \_ I already have a good stock of food, water, medical supplies,
              etc in case of earthquake. I still have my old hunting rifle
              from growing up in Wyoming. I suppose a few hundred
              spare rounds sitting up in the attic wouldn't hurt. Even
              during the Depression though, things didn't get so bad
              that civil society completely broke down, so I think you
              are overreacting. -ausman
                \_ I was just answering the question about what
                   I would do if I though the dollar was going to
                   totally collapse tomorrow.  If every dollar I
                   own was going to be basically worthless, and
                   everyone elses dollars were basically worthless
                   I think there would be widespread chaos.
                   Personally I don't think this will happen ever
                   though.  The world is too heavily invested in
                   the success of America.
2004/11/28 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:35096 Activity:nil
11/28   John (or others), what's the best way to buy European (or other
        foreign) long term bonds?  Is there a European long term bond
        \_ I am pretty bad with investments, but I assume it would be best
           to open an account with a small bank that you like in a non-EU
           country (CH, LI) -- they will buy most funds for you, and usually
           have a bunch of their own.  There are a ton of European-only
           funds (currency, govt., corporate, whatever).  If you drop me a
           mail I will be glad to send you what I find, as I'm looking at
           this myself.  -John
2004/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34915 Activity:insanely high
o11/16  Poll: Which one of the three would you choose to be the president?
        (Let's say there's no other choice, e.g. from the Democrats.)
        Bush   .. :
        Powell    : .......
        Rice      :
        !Bush: .
        \_ I'd have taken Powell over Kerry.
           \_ Despite my Democratic Party reg., I would've voted for Powell
              before his Sec. of State gig, where he proved himself
              spineless. Now that he's lame-ducked, I hope he visits Cheney's
              office just to deck him.
              \_ I kinda agree with you.
        \_ Bush:Evil, Rice:Willing tool of evil, Powell:reluctant tool of evil
        \_ What a silly question. EVERYONE wants to elect Powell.  The
           problem is, he's never going to run.  You might as well wish
           for FDR back.
           \_ Really?  Did he actually say he won't run in the future?
              \_ Yeah, back in '97/98.  I believe he mentioned his wife being
                 concerned about him being the target of assassination attempts
                 (KKK types moreso than run of the mill terrorists/lone nuts).
                 \_ I hear she suffers from various stress related
                    problems.  Being the first lady does not help this.
                    \_ Okay, let's wait till she passes away first.
        \_ Actually, there's another interesting problem with Powell,
           Arabs are famously racist against blacks.  I wonder if that
           would be a problem?
           \_ Aren't Jews racist against blacks also?  Hmm, so Arabs and Jews
           \_ Aren't Joos racist against blacks also?  Hmm, so Arabs and Joos
              are on the same side on this.
              \_ Poor Sammy Davis, Jr.
        \_ 2008 will be Clinton/Gore vs Powell/Rice
           \_ If that turns out to be true, Powell wins by a landslide.
              \_ What's wrong with Hillary as president that we already know
                 (besides being a bitch)?
                 \_ The problem with Hillary, at least what I'm refering
                    to here, is that Powell is liked by pretty much every
                    one.  Hillary is intensly liked by certain people, and
                    hated by everyone else.  She couldn't pull a mojority
                    unless the opponent was Stalin.
                    \_ no one ever tried to kill Stalin. - danh
                       \_ Did someone try to kill Hillary?  Also, Stalin
                          may have been murdered.  The verdict is unknown.
                          \_ I am a registered Republican (yes for the funny
                             postal mail) and I get great flyers from out
                             of state about the need to "retire" the Evil
                             One from New York.  As far as I know Stalin
                             was wildly popular in the Soviet Union and
                             there was no serious attempt to have him killed,
                             unlike Hitler.-danh
                             \_ Wildly popular?  Generally you're a pretty
                                intelligent guy, danh, so I'm going to assume
                                that there must be some underlying element of
                                humor in your comment that I'm not getting.
                                The notion that Stalin was 'popular' is just
                                too absurd to take seriously.  Perhaps you
                                should seek out better source materials.  -POC
                             \_ Stalin was wildly popular in SU in much the
                                same way that Kim Jong Il dude is wildly
                                popular in NK... in fact in exactly the same
                                way.  You can't be serious. -- ilyas
                                \_ polling technology was primitive in ww2
                                   \_ Jesus, just think about the situation in
                                      Stalinist Russia, for a second.
                             \_ You're saying that the RNC is advocating
                                the assasination of Hillary?  How much
                                Kool-aid have you been drinking?
                \_ I will say that weird fringe groups want Hillary
                   "eliminated" "rubbed out" "taken out".  I really don't
                   get why they think she is the embodiment of All That Is
                   Bad. - danh
                             \_ As I said, some think Stalin was murdered:
                                \_ his syphilis ridden body failed at 73?
                                   how strange!
           \_ Can a VP serve a third term?
              \_ Of course.  The question is, why would she pick Gore?
                 \_ Oh, she wouldn't pick Al.
                    \_ She'd pick Tipper?
                       \_ Aren't you a bright one!
                          \_ What, is there another Gore I'm forgetting?
        \_ Democrat jizz fantasy:  Powell runs for President on Democratic
           \_  You bastard! I just cleaned my keyboard! -democrat
           \_ 2008: Powell/McCain ticket solidifies moderate-centrist regime
              that lasts for forty years.  Anyone with ideas stronger than
              "small steps and a good economy" labelled a loony.
2004/11/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34897 Activity:nil
11/15   Slavery in the North
        \_ I'm curious what point you were trying to make by posting this.
           I thought it was common knowledge.
2004/11/10 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34800 Activity:kinda low
11/10   No Blood for Cocoa
        French open fire on protesters
        \_ Let's see if International ANSWER organizes mass protests against
           this racist war.
           \_ ANSWER is one of the unfortunate side-effects of being committed
              to listening to everybody. This comment was likely posted by an
              motd conservative but I agree with the slant...and the answer is
              No, they haven't. They are apparently too busy protesting the US
              (I'm sorry, COALITION) action in Fallujah. --ulysses
              \_ I'm having trouble parsing that first sentence.  You're
                 saying that ANSWER has a policy of listening to everyone?
                 \_ No, I'm saying I have that policy and most of my like-
                    minded friends who participated in the protests do as well.
                    I was on their mailing list for awhile just to hear what
                    they had to say. That meant tolerating ANSWER and the
                    Spartacus League and their ilk. I am aware that NION and
                    ANSWER had a lot to do with organizing some of the protests.
2004/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34798 Activity:moderate
11/9    For williamc and for the rest of us:
        \_ Is there *any* major Canadian city more than a 4 hour drive from
           the U.S. border?
           \_ Yes there are many major cities more than a 4-hour drive from the
              U.S. of C. border.
        \_ Are you making this happen?
2004/11/6-7 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34722 Activity:high
11/5    http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1286272004
        I was going to make some sort of snarky comment but I think this one
        speaks for itself.  Headline:  "Van Gogh murder backlash begins"

please leave this nuked, i want to get my message across the asshole
who selectively ilyaed my message.
\_ go fuck yourself.  some poeple are actually trying to communicate using
   the motd.
        \_ someone should've done the same to Michael Moore.   -liberal
           \_ Perhaps you could, then you could pretend to be a mouth
              breathing pig ****ing bible basher.
           \_ MM is a big fat idiot, but your comment can only be met with
              something along the lines of "U SUKC TEH COCK".  Sad.  -John
                                                       \_ C0KC

[ pick a better adjective, bitch. -- ilyas ]
2004/11/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34698 Activity:high
11/5    What left-to-center EU newspapers would the motd recommend? The
        ascendancy of the BUsh theocracy has me orienting myself towards
        the EU, whose community-oriented policies and multilateralism
        speak to my progressive/liberal values. I have reading proficiency
        in French and Spanish, and presently I'm learning Italian. My
        Tagalog & Ilokano blow chunks. Thanks. --elizp
        \_ Yeah the EU really has a spine.
        \_ To be honest, it's a bit sad if you only want to read stuff that
           echoes what you believe in.  The left-wing Euro papers are just as
           dogmatic, biased and repetitive as anything you'll find on the
           other side of the spectrum.  Just because it comes out of
           Europe doesn't magically make it politically more insightful.  Why
           don't you just go for a broad sampling of editorial opinion? -John
           \_ Between the NYTimes, WaPo, LATimes, and ChiTribune, I have
              a lot on my plate; I already subscribe to The Economist for
              a smart conservative perspective; and I asked for left-of-center
              b/c the EU press has a longer tradition of papers affiliated
              explicitly with political parties. ANd if I want a Libertarian
              opinion, I can just turn to my husband @ <DEAD>marginalrevolution.com<DEAD>
                \_ The Economist is not a 'smart conservative opinion'.  I
                \_ The Economist is not a 'smart conservative perspective'.  I
                   think you are misled.
                   \_ Understand, liberals think that's an oxymoron anyway.
                   \_ What perspective is it?
                      \_ globalist agitprop
                \_ Look, if you want to build an independent, viable,
                   intelligent view of what's happening in the world, you
                   could start by getting away from the whole "liberal/
                   conservative" black & white stuff.  The economist is
                   decidedly not what I would call "conservative" along the
                   lines of what conservatives in the US seem to call
                   "conservative".  You're also not going to get a good
                   representative sampling of the European (or any) press
                   if you don't differentiate between viewpoints in various
                   areas (economy, social issues, environment, diplomacy,
                   etc.) or even more detailed nuances there.  Start by
                   leafing through all the big name ones (no one's suggesting
                   you read the FT cover to cover) and you'll get there. -John
                   \_ OK, then help me out: what big name ones should I
                      start with? If all you wish to do at this moment is
                      berate me for my all-round myopia, rest your case:
                      my shock at the outcome of this election has already
                      unmasked it. --elizp
                      \_ OK, for the classic 'leftie' ones start with the
                         Guardian (UK) and Liberation (FR).  FAZ (DE) and
                         Times (UK) tend to be very sober in terms of
                         presentation (both optical and with their editorials)
                         The big ones in Spain are El Mundo / El Pais, and
                         in Italy one of the more widely read ones is Corriere
                         della Sera.  Also check out Le Temps in France.
                         I doubt you're interested in Dutch/Scandinavian
                         papers, but to get a fairly complete overview have
                         a look at http://www.onlinenewspapers.com .
                         To be honest, I prefer the IHT.  -John
           \_ BTW reading freerepublic and democraticunderground doesn't
              count as a broad sampling. -jrleek
        \_ Le Monde is a nyt partner.  But if you are really more interested
           in facts than fictions and lies, you should try to read a lot of
           sources (which can take some time).  The number one job of any
           journalist, whatever his political orientation is, is to lie.  But
           if you sample widely AND have a GOOD processor, you might be able to
           average the lies out and get some truth.  Keep this in mind: they
           ALL lie.
               \_ But there's bias, and there's intellectual honesty. Those
                  qualities are distinct from each other, but not always
                  easily identifiable in any range of arguments. That's
                  why I came to the motd for some recommendations, and
                  so far no one has been helpful. --elizp
                        \_ Uh... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I listed at least two papers
                           that fit your initial criterion, along with a good
                           sampling of major papers from which you can draw
                           your own confusions.  And once again, it is my view
                           that most "left of center" editors and columnists
                           here tend to be as demagogic and undifferentiated
                           as the "right of center" media that seems to annoy
                           you in the US.  Intellectually honest, maybe, but
                           definitely sanctimonious.  I will gladly let you
                           know when I find one that isn't so holier than thou
                           as to be really really tiresome.  -John
           \_ but anonymous cowards on the MOTD always tell the truth.  -tom
              \_ That's uncalled for.
                 \_ Not necessarily.  The AC just slagged off all journos
                    with his needlessly nasty review.  Tom responded in kind.
                    Status quo preserved. --erikred (nice try, AMC)
                    \_ Tom is unable to respond in any other way.  It's
                       misleading to say a constant function is responding to
                       anything, it just sort of stays constant.
                       \_ hey, it's NERFAMC!  -tom
        \_ The Guardian is pretty good and in English:
           Right after 9/11, when the entire American media turned itself
           into a cheering section for Bush, I read it for an alternative
           perspective. Now I can find that in the American media, so
           my reading of it has dropped off quite a bit. -ausman
        \_ try the Al Jazeera. Halaalalalahahahalala.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34665 Activity:very high
11/4    In other news:
        The French Government has announced it is raising it terror alert
        level.  They are rising it from "Run" to "Hide".  No word on if
        the higher levels of "Surender" or "Collaborate" are being
        This action is in response to a fire in the country's largest
        White Flag factory rendering it's military useless.
        \_ I dunno.  Giving medical care to Arafat looks an awful lot like
           an act of war to me.
           \_ Giving medical care is a cassus bellus? You are psychotic.
           \_ Giving medical care is a cassus belli? You are psychotic.
        \_ And at home, Republican-controlled government continues to use
           scare tactics and asinine strawman targets to divert the public
           attention from corporate welfare, disastrous war planning, and
           rampant destruction of the Constitution.
        \_ I used to make fun of the French as well with the WW2 surrender,
           then I read about how many French soldiers died in WW1.  It exceeds
           the # of American soldiers we have lost in ALL wars by quite a bit.
           \_ Yes I know, and the loss in WWII was more bad politics than
              cowardly soldiers.  Unfortunatly, if you want to make a
              coward joke, France is an easy choice; just like we make
              jokes about how dumb the Polish are. I have no idea how the
              dumb Polish sterotype got started.
                \_ Because the Poles working in the US during the major
                   waves of turn of the century immigration tended to have
                   shitty, dangerous, muscle-type jobs like hauling meat and
                   building railroads; the guys doing that sort of thing tend
                   to be bigger, ergo the big dumb Polack stereotype.  As for
                   moronic, the general tone in papers over here is "how could
                   more than 60 million Americans be this thick?"  -John
                   \-in sort of a mirror image, you have to go to india to
                     find large numbers of dumb indians. --psb
2004/11/3 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34599 Activity:moderate 57%like:34576
11/3    Where's the bus to Canada?
        \_ http://www.harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html
        \_ that is the 2nd time I've heard that :p
        \_ Have a good time there, just don't say anything bad about the
           queen.  You will be censored.
                \_ Being censored is better than being monitored by Homeland
        \_ Stop teasing and get out already.
        \_ Rather, move your MONEY overseas, before everyone else does.
           The debt is a big timebomb, if bush's policies are maintained/
           extended, the estimates are this could knock a good 1% off GDP
           growth until effectively the end of time.
           \_ Clinton should have paid down more debt when the economy was
              good and tax revenue was high.
              \_ The Republican congress was yelling for tax cuts the whole
                 time. Or maybe you're joking.
           \_ done that for some time already.  almost no US stocks left
              except for some index funds in my 401k.
        \_ Can't leave California now, too much money to make in biotech now.
2004/11/3 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34596 Activity:nil
11/03   The last/next thing to elect:
2004/11/2 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34526 Activity:high
11/1    Gunman kills Dutch film director
        \_ Maybe more European societies will start having to have serious
           thoughts about essentially trying to handle an intractable, hostile
           minority with kid gloves.  The French already face this issue with
           Algerians, and the Germans with Turks (mind, this is not to imply
           that everyone from there is a big nasty, just that these are the
           main immigrant population groups serving as a basis for
           individuals who choose to identify themselves with them).  Euros
           historically have a serious guilt thing going when objectively
           discussing integration & western values--I get the impression that
           a lot of countries are just starting to come to terms that it's
           not an issue you can just hope will go away.  -John
           \_ If things continue as they are by the end of this century,
              Europe will no longer be Europe as we know it.  Western culture
              will be swamped by Middle Eastern and South Asian.  I believe
              this will be the first time in history that an entire people has
              allowed itself to be wiped out without losing a war.
           \_ Do you really think the Muslim minorities in Europe are
              so nasty and dangerous? I'm not so sure. I certainly don't
              see a general pattern of Muslim "hits" on prominant Euro
              targets. The last 2 prominant murders in Europe I can think
              of, Pym Fortun and that Swedish woman Lindt, were both pulled
              of by whities. Personally, I think the Turkish "problem" is
              already starting to right itself. Many Turks I encounter in
              Germany speak perfect German and outside of a few reactionary
              politicians, one doesn't really hear that much about Turks as
              a problem. Yes, some do maintain their religious customs, but
              they certainly don't seem to be trying to impose it on anyone
              \_ No, I don't think that at all--I thought I chose my wording
                 very carefully.  The problem is that there are groups of
                 immigrants that come from backgrounds which are socio-
                 culturally very different from the secular humanism of
                 Western Europe.  Many of them integrate very well, and bring
                 cool new ideas and changes with them; the problem is that
                 Europe, which doesn't have as good an experience with
                 integrating outsiders as the US, provides a tolerant
                 environment for individuals in those communities, who choose
                 not to integrate, to espouse and practice radical ideas.
                 I used Turks/Algerians as an example, but there are problems
                 with people from the Balkans, Eastern Europeans, etc.  Not
                 as a group per se, but as individuals who take ideas from
                 these cultures which are opposed to western ones, and bring
                 them into confrontation with their host culture, viz. ethnic
                 ghettoes in most countries here, fertile recruiting grounds
                 for islamic radicals in European mosques, etc.  As for trying
                 to impose "their" customs, this is mainly the case with
                 persons from these groups who might otherwise integrate
                 (think women who don't want to wear burqas) but a certain
                 degree of intolerance does spill over.  -John
                 \_ Oh, I gotcha -- I think the misunderstanding was in the
                    use of the word minority, which I took to mean
                    specifically Muslims in this context, but you meant it
                    more generally. What you say is resonable, though I think
                    the "tolerance" shown by, at least Germany, towards
                    minority groups in terms of letting them run their own
                    affairs they way they want to, is actually a
                    manifestation of a form of intolerance. I get the feeling
                    that Western European countries feel they have a moral
                    obligation to accept certain immigrants (making up for
                    the past, etc.), but their heart isn't really into it,
                    which is why they leave these groups alone, without much
                    effort to help them acculturate. I could be wrong, though.
                    \_ Actually they try pretty hard.  However, they don't
                        differentiate between who, for example, receives
                        welfare and for what, leading to tremendous abuse of
                        the system by people whose culture may have taught
                        them different permutations of right and wrong.  The
                        result is that there's (I think) a slow move to
                        treating newcomers with less tolerance, and telling
                        them to adapt or piss off, which I think is more than
                        fair.  One example of this is that voters here just
                        approved an initiative to deport illegal immigrants
                        who commit violent crimes.  "?!?"  -John
                        \_ I agree the governments in Europe try very hard,
                           but I was talking more about the "on the ground"
                           reaction of the people here. Of course, it's just
                           anecdotal, but I have the feeling that foreigners
                           here are treated more like outsiders (by the
                           populace) than they are in the US. Considering
                           that, I don't find it surprising that some don't
                           want to integrate. Plus, I think that the
                           governments need to get more sensible about what
                           they tolerate and what they don't tolerate. I
                           don't have a problem with the govn'ts saying,
                           "You need to behave this way," if it is something
                           sensible, but I don't see how, e.g., preventing
                           Muslims (and Jews) from wearing religous headgear
                           is going to help them integrate. They need to find
                           a way to let them integrate, while letting them
                           maintain some of their identity (if they chose to).
2004/10/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34425 Activity:nil
10/28   Gulliver's travails: The U.S. in the post-Cold-War world
        Yearning to be liked
2004/10/27 [Reference/Languages, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34378 Activity:very high
10/27   Why is the monarch of Monaco called a prince instead of a king?
        \_ Because it was a principality of France.  in 1512, the king of
           france recognized their independence, but the name of the office
           \_ Actually, in French and English it's 'Prince';  Germanic
              languages are a bit more precise, as they differentiate between
              'Prinz', or someone with some sort of claim to a royal throne,
              and 'Fuerst', which is kind of a generic sovereign ruler dude.
              So both Liechtenstein and Monaco have the latter, there's just
              a linguistic difference.  -John
              \_ I wonder if this is true of Italian also.  Machiavelli's
                 title certainly refers to the 'Fuerst' meaning of 'Prince.'
                   -- ilyas
                \_ ...and Principe in Spanish.  And for 100 points, what
                   do those all have in common, that German does not (besides
                   edible food)?  -John
                   \_ The English have edible food?
                      \_ Yes, it's called curry.
                   \_ Are you looking for the latin root? --scotsman
                   \_ If you mean Latin, that's not too hard.
                      \_ English is a Germanic language, not Latin.
                         \_ English takes bits from German, Latin, Greek, and
                            French (which is itself Latin-derived).
                            \_ Oh, I see.  I was just looking at
                         \_ Ding.  Why do you think they bothered with all
                            that empire shit, and then gave it up once they
                            had half of Asia and Afria immigrating?
                            \_ The East India Trading Company was just an
                               elaborate ruse to get better food for England?
                               It all makes so much sense now....
                               \_ Well, tea anyway.
2004/10/23-25 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34312 Activity:very high
10/23   What does everyone think about prop. 69 (The DNA database one).
        The arguments against in my Voter Info Guide sound kinda tin-foil
        hat, but I can see where some problems might exist.  For example,
        does anyone know what kind of testing they're planning on using?
        I doubt it would be full-sequencing, but the against argument
        hints at that.  (I think.)
        \_ Probably RFLP typing. Easy, fast, done in a couple of hours
           at most and doesn't require a high resolution gel. I can show
           you how to do one in a half day.
        \_ GATTACA.
        \_ CUAAUGU.
        \_ Think of it this way (disclaime--I don't like the idea):
           -all legal structures with the potential to screw you (the private
            citizen) either through a tyrannical government or through misuse
            by someone unscrupulous start life as something relatively
            harmless, sold to you as a measure to improve security ("so what
            do you have to hide?")  Such measures rarely stop at the first,
            innocent step used to sell it to the public
           -Governments almost never give up the ability to collect/maintain
            potentially misused information on you, even when it's proven that
            said information serves no purpose
           -Arguments against such measures are almost invariably made to look
            like crackpot straw men
           -Even if strict auditability and oversight laws and structures
            exist, do you trust them entirely?
           Note that I'm not making any specific arguments against this, just
           giving you something to generally think about.  You may also note
           that in European countries, where this has been done to some
           degree, the only supporting successes are generally individual,
           high profile cases (i.e. not a general reduction of crime) while I
           can point to a number of pretty hard-core fuckups resulting from
           DNA collection.  -John
           \_ As a data point, they used to say that UK's CCTV cameras would
              only be shown to well-trained security types and they'd never
              leak; now the "Real TV"-type shows are filled with tapes of
              couples making out with a voiceover of cops making fun of them.
           \_ Yes, we should be careful about this one. A DNA database of
              this sort could be pretty bad if the wrong hands get to it.
              Think insurance companies, think "no coverage," think corrupt
              gov't lab workers who are willing to sell the information.
              Hey, you have a tendency for CF? Well, the carrier is going
              to drop you when your wife gets pregnant. Scary stuff.
              Another reason why we should have state sponsored health
              care like virtually ever other civilized country in the
              world... -williamc
              \_ Have you ever been in a National Health hospital in the UK?
                 It's like that scene in the insurgents' bunker in the 2nd
                 Terminator movie.  -John
                 \_ I've been to County in LA. Same thing. -williamc
                    \_ Did a terminator bust in guns blazing?
              \_ You're assuming the DNA finger printing method they use
                 would reveal this.  If it's the same as the one they
                 used for crimes when I was in HS, (RFLP) it wouldn't.
                 Since so far all the counter arguments are based on it
                 being one of the (super expensive) full sequencing
                 methods, I was curious if anyone actually knew which type
                 they were using.  The second poster also thinks it's
                 probably RFLP.
                 \_ Sorry, I was the second poster. RFLP is commonly used
                    to reveal information like this, i.e. if you are
                    a carrier for a certain disease like CF. Probably
                    you need to do a review on RFLP and how it can
                    be used as a marker for diseases. - williamc
                    \_ That's true if you break on certain sequences.
                       They don't use those sequences in crime work.
           \_ Maybe you could relate some of those horror stories.  So far
              the only ones I've heard have been "mixing up the DNA at the
              lab" which, to me, seems pretty isomorphic to mixing up the
              fingerprints at the office.  (Although a little harder to
                \_ There was a case in .ch where a group representing
                   health insurers accidentally was given access to a DB
                   of HIV patients' DNA (including their identities)--and this
                   country has very strict privacy laws.  There was also a
                   case in the UK of wrongful identification of a criminal
                   based on a DNAsample, even though the chances were
                   something like 1 in 2 million.  They've since switched to
                   using more identifiers, but the point holds.  These are
                   isolated flukes, but when they do occur, they give rise to
                   a similar problem to that of using PIN codes for credit
                   card auth instead of signatures--The technology's pretty
                   good, hence trusted, hence you have little-to-no chance of
                   non-repudiation IF something horrible goes wrong.  -John
        \_ My wife and I like 69.
           \_ So does yermom
              \_ menage trois!
                 \_ manage trolls!

You have new trolls.
                    \_ mangy trolls!
                 \_ "menage a trois", or actually "ménage à trois".
           \_ You sick!! -sexless sodan
2004/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Computer/Theory] UID:34263 Activity:very high
10/21   What Americans truly loathe about dealing with Europeans: Alan Turing
        on American efforts to break Enigma:
        "Generally speaking, their attitude is so purely mechanical and
         mathematical that they often fail to see the wood for the trees and
         do not like to admit that experience and a knowledge of immediately
         prior developments, combined with a little manual work, may often
         produce the answer more quickly than machinery."
        I say, old chap, could you possibly be a bit more condescending?
        \_ Yes, but you wouldn't understand it.  -John
        \_ Here's my perspective as a scientist who's dealt with western
           europeans: they'd rather spend a day blathering and writing on the
           chalkboard than an hour in the machine shop to just build the
           damn experiment.  I'm excluding the English and the Swiss from
                That's because all the good scientists from here _/
                have moved to the US.
                \_ Interesting.  Why do you think that is?
                   \_ Because govt. & corporate grant money here is about
                      nonexistent, universities/colleges aren't as
                      prevalent as in the US (hence fewer research jobs),
                      US salaries are higher, innovation generally isn't
                      as culturally ingrained, and the academic community
                      here seems pretty small and inbred, wasting a lot of
                      energy going at each others' throats, to name a few
                        \_ </troll>
                      \_ Every foreign scientists I work with is either
                         here already or trying desperately to come here
                         (USA). The few who were here and had to leave are
                         miserable. They do say that Japan is not too bad.
                         A small handful of foreign scientists have a
                         monopoly on the research in Europe and so for
                         those few they are better off there.
                         \_  Uh, so you're saying that you work in the U.S.,
                             and the people you've met while working in the
                             U.S. all work in the U.S.? wow.
                             \_ I work in the US with many foreign
                                scientists and agencies. Some are here for
                                a short time only and some are in Europe
                                and Japan. Just because I work with them
                                doesn't mean they are in the USA.
                         \_ Japan's great for research so long as you're
                            completely willing to give up all rights to the
                            fruit of your research. Cf.:
                            \_ This link doesn't work for me.
           this, but in my opinion western European physicists are all talk
           and no action, and I would avoid working with them in the future
           if at all possible.
           \_ The ones I've met pride themselves on their theoretical work
              and describe Americans as merely applying the practical to the
              more deeply intellectual concepts they've originated.  They
              meant it in the same way we used to talk about the Japanese
              when they were doing nothing but cloning American technology
              and making shittier cheaper versions of it.
        \_ WARNING!  None of the above posters has a clue.
           \_ Said warning applies to any motd post, so it is redundant.
            \_ the tone is condescending, self-righteous, and feeling
               of superiority... ilyas, is that you?
               \_ No, see the above sounds like something tom would say --
                  insulting but uninformative.  If I wanted to be
                  condescending to people in this thread I would
                  wonder outloud how many posters actually worked
                  with European scientists, and whether they are
                  aware of differences between europeans working here
                  in the US vs europeans working in europe, etc.
                  Actually, what they said doesn't sound wrong
                  to me.  In conclusion, you are an anonymous twit,
                  and if you think feelings of superiority are at
                  my personal core you REALLY REALLY don't know me.
                    -- ilyas
                  \_ If you don't know me by now
                     You will never never ever know me
                        -- h melvin and the bluetones
2004/10/17-19 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34179 Activity:nil
10/17   Suppose I want to read technical/scientific writing in a foreign
        language (e.g.  French) but I don't have the time or the need to
        learn how to speak or listen in that language nor do I plan to read
        anything non-technical.  Is there any short-cut learning method or
        resource for this?
        \_ It's really pretty easy.  Get a French-English dictionary (or
           http://wordreference.com/fr find something technical to read,
           and start reading.  When you find conjugated words that aren't in
           the dictionary, run them through Babelfish to find the dictionary
           forms; after a few you'll start being able to guess them.  You'll
           pick up the technical terms quickly since you already know what
           they mean, and soon you'll be able to read pretty fast using the
           dictionary.  It works for math papers, at least.
        \_ You know, it's not such a bad thing to learn a foreign language.
           But if you need to read something in a hurry, you can always
           google translate it.
        \_ Do scientists still use latin as the universal language?
           or maybe try: http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate
        \_ Just have Trinity download the language directly into your
2004/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33972 Activity:high
10/7    I notice on wall people are discussing the idea that Guantanamo
        interrogations "have not prevented a single terrorist attack".
        Here's the source article:
        \_ People on wall don't discuss.  They just echo each other and
           say "w00t!".
           \_ Then add to the discussion.  Anonymous Coward. -scotsman
              \_ This is what wall reminds me of:
                 http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html -- ilyas
                 \_ http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame88.html
                    \_ Whoa.  It's aaron with a fro!
                       \_ I hate Oliver Stone. --aaron
                          \_ I find it amusing that the only thing aaron
                             could find to counter the caricature of himself
                             was that he does not like Oliver Stone.  Way
                             to go aaron!  You are not a 1-d stereotype!
                             You are a HUMAN BEING!
                             \_ Congratulations! You got the joke! --aaron
                                \_ Congratulations!  You are a cardboard
                                   cutout!  It's not a joke, it's depressing.
                                   \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                      \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                         \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                            (it's time someone stepped in to
                                            terminate the recursion). -- ilyas
                                         \_ Actually, insulting an anonymous
                                            person anonymously is perfectly
                                            symmetrical. Slightly silly perhaps,
                                            but no harm done. Insulting
                                            someone by name is defamatory.
                                            Do you really not understand this?
                                            \_ Wow!  You got the point of the
                                               comment!  Good for you!  Now
                                               maybe you can work on using
                                               silverware without a bib!
                          \_ even Conan the Barbarian?
                             \_ Okay, I hate Oliver Stone except for Conan
                                \_ What about Wall Street? do you hate that?
           \_ w00t!  pwn3d!
2004/9/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33837 Activity:very high
9/29    What do you guys think about Turkey joining the EU?
        \_ Not yet.  It's only recently that their main islamist groups have
           come around to the idea that beating women and imposing shariya
           may not be the best road to prosperity.  They're getting there,
           making friends with Greece and starting to be reasonable about
           Cyprus and the Kurds.  Give them some time, start building ties.
           Turks are pretty nice & civilized people in general, and I'd like
           to see them join "Europe", but I would like to see some more
           movement towards what is (not in religious terms) Europe's
           judeo-christian cultural and economic identity. -John
        \_ I think it's an EU problem and has little to do with us.  At best
           it is another back door for the US into controlling the EU.  At
           worst, it'll drag Europe down that much faster and there'll be a
           huge mess in Europe as it goes down in flames.  It already won't
           be Eurpean by the end of the century at current birth and
           immigration rates/trends.  I wonder if this is the first time
           in history that an entire people, or in this multiple people with
           a similar/tied culture, have allowed themselves to become extinct.
           \_ Ah. So "European" is short-hand for "white", then?
              \_ Ah.  I someone would scream "RACIST!" instead of appyling
                 their brain.  Europe has a unique culture which a flood of
                 people from other countries who are not being integrated
                 into society will overwhelm and destroy.  I didn't say
                 "white" or even hint at it.  Don't strawman me.
                 \_ Again, how is Turkey more of a problem than the former
                    Soviet Bloc countries?
                    \_ Some of the former Soviet slave states are European
                       cultured and only differ in that their economies are
                       still recovering from communism as their legal systems
                       come up to speed.  Turkey is a completely different
                       culture.  What sort of answer other than the obvious
                       were you expecting?
                       \_ Actually, the ones that just joined EU like the
                          Baltic states, blend pretty well with the rest
                          of Europe culturally.
                          \_ That's what he said isn't it?
        \_ Why not, they joined NATO.
        \_ It's a hard question.  On the one hand, Turkey is one of the few
           Muslim countries actually making progress into the modern world,
           and it's not a bad place.  I'd like to give them all the
           opportunities possible.  On the other hand, Turkish immirants
           into Europe have become a serious pain in the butt.
           \_ More so than Eastern European immigrants?  Turkey is in better
              shape than, say, Albania or Macedonia, and slightly less corrupt
              than Russia.
              \_ Thank Allah. What Europe needs is more red-headed hookers.
              \_ I couldn't tell you about eastern europeans.  I'm pretty
                 sure gangs of them aren't taking over Swedish cities
                   \_ Nobody's taking anything over.  Arabs, Eastern
                      Europeans (lots of Russian, Polish and ex-Yugoslav),
                      Turks and some Central Asians and Africans control a lot
                      of the crime in European cities (from small time shit
                      to organized prostitution and drug smuggling.)  Sweden,
                      France, Germany and the UK, among many, are just
                      starting to realize that the great social experiment,
                      and treating everyone with kid gloves, is not conducive
                      to having a civil society when you're dealing with
                      thugs.  Not all non-Europeans are thugs, just a lot of
                      the illegal immigrants.  So:  should "Western" countries
                      stop immigration from places where people look funny?
                      No.  Should they consistently hold everyone to certain
                      minimal standards of behavior?  Definitely.  Also note
                      that the article talks about "Arabs".
                      Searching for 'turk' yields 0 results.  -John
                 \_ http://jihadwatch.org/spencer ???
                    Can you give me a good reason why I would want to listen
                    to a source as provocative as this?
                    \_ Well, if you're good at Swedish you could read the
                       articles he links to yourself.  Bork! Bork! Bork!
                       \_ From the BBC's description of Aftonbladet:
                          "The biggest-selling paper not only in Sweden but
                           across the Nordic region, the Stockholm-based
                           tabloid Aftonbladet is one of only two truly
                           national titles. Described as an evening paper,
                           Aftonbladet appears on news stands in Stockholm at
                           around 0830 and follows the classic tabloid format,
                           with plenty of celebrity news, sport, sex and
                           crime. Part-owned by the Swedish trade unions,
                           Aftonbladet is described as "independent social
                          In other words, it's the NY Post or Sun Daily of
                          Scandinavia.  Nope, no sensationalism here.
                    \_ I can't tell if you are joking or not.  Is there
                       something wrong with this guy that I am not seeing?
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ This gentleman has a particular, and might I add,
                          extreme, point of view which he purports to support
                          by quoting other extremist points of view.  He then
                          defends his position by suggesting that the point of
                          his exercise is merely to inform people about the
                          extreme points of view.  The implication, however, is
                          that the extremist POVs he reveals are in fact the
                          driving forces of an entire culture (which he lamely
                          tries to deny he's implying by saying "I am not doing
                          this" while he continues to do it with the other
                          hand).  My point is that while it is good to know
                          that there are extremists out there, this fellow, in
                          trying to address the so-called soft press that has,
                          according to him, ignored the extremists, goes over-
                          board in his characterizations.  This does not help
                          the debate.
                          \_ I don't understand what you are trying to say.
                             What is his extreme point of view?  That militant
                             jihadists are bad?  That's not extreme at all.
                             I think this guy's only fault is not being
                             'diplomatic' with his language.  Can you show me
                             in particular in what way he is going overboard?
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Did you read the sidebar on "Why Dhimmi Watch"
                                on the main page of this site?
                                "Spearheaded by dhimmi academics and self-
                                 serving advocacy groups, that same attitude
                                 of chastened subservience has entered into
                                 Western academic study of Islam, and from
                                 there into journalism, school textbooks, and
                                 the popular discourse."
                                Apparently, anyone who doesn't view Islam with
                                deep fear and suspicion is a dhimmi tool of the
                                Islamic overlords.
                                \_ Given some things stated in the Qu'ran, I
                                   think the burden of proof is on Islam, not
                                   on the West.  -- ilyas
                                \_ Maybe they are?  Ever think of that?
                                   \_ Sure.  About the same time I thought that
                                      Adam Weishaupt and the Bavarian
                                      Illuminati wanted to corrupt my precious
                                      bodily fluids.
                                      \_ Oops!  You got schooled by John!
                                      \_ I think Europe is far more seriously
                                         affected by muslim immigration than
                                         the US, and there _are_ a lot of very
                                         warped apologists for islamist b.s.
                                         here who play either the racism or
                                         the "you're a paranoid kook" card if
                                         anyone disagrees with them.  Why are
                                         you doing the same?  It's a serious
                                         problem.  Look up 'Finsbury park
                                         mosque' for starters.  -John
                              \_ What I would call extreme is a French girl
                                 raped by 80 muslim men.... Don't hear
                                 much about that do you?
                                 \_ Lots of that in the European adult
                                    comic books.  Seems like that's what
                                    the Europeans fantasize about.
                                    \_ Hi!  Why are you still taking up
                                       our oxygen, twit?
                                    \_ You stupid fuck.  There is an
                                       ongoing case in France where this
        \_ Who is want to come TURKEY  I can invitate
        \_ I don't think it makes any sense for Europe. It helps Turkey of
           course, and certain business interests, and would help long term
           political stability and so forth. But Turkey IMO is still has too
           many problems and culturally doesn't seem ready for it. Even if some
           eastern European countries like Romania may have a lot of problems,
           they are already "there" from a cultural standpoint. It looks like
           it will happen sooner or later anyway though.
2004/9/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33806 Activity:nil
9/28    The Eagle award voting page is up.  Do the choices always suck
        this badly?  For example, the "favorite web based comic" catagory
        has PvP, and 2 comics that I can't even find webpages for they're
        so unknown. Whaa?  And what's with those choices for best Manga?
2004/9/28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33799 Activity:nil
9/28    These guys know how to have more fun than the CSUA:
        http://csua.org/u/98p (yahoo news)
2004/9/27 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33772 Activity:moderate
9/27    Just an epiphany that among my warmest feelings towards the US was
        while in Africa seeing France's legacy as an imperial power. For all
        the evil the southern American states have endured by way of the US, by
        comparison to the French in Africa, they are doing relatively well. Of
        course, American imperialism in places like Colombia vs. French
        imperialism in, say, Mali, is only one component of much larger story
        in either place. My Jack Handy for the day. -- ulysses
        \_ Our meddling in Central and South America doesn't hold a candle to
           full-on colonialism such as the French in Africa.  A better
           comparison would be what happened to the native Hawaiians.
           \_ Good point. -- ulysses
        \_ By southern American, do you mean Georgia? They still curse
           Sherman's name in Atlanta.
        \_ Are you going to make me bring up our bloody counterrebellion
           in the Phillippines?
           \_ I wasn't going to even ask but the thought of making you do it
              is too much to resist. Cuteness aside I had thought of the
              Phillipines when the poster abv mentioned Hawaii. Keep in mind
              that there are a number of islands off the coast of
              Africa where every last original inhabitant was killed by Spanish
              or French sailors/soldiers/merchants. This may all be academic,
              \_ How many Native American tribes were wiped out to the last man?
                 \_ We're still trying to figure out how many Native Americans
                    there were pre-Columbus to begin with.  Estimates range
2004/9/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33701 Activity:nil
9/22    The story about forged documents that 60 Minutes should have run:
        http://csua.org/u/95x (MSNBC)
2004/9/10-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33464 Activity:kinda low
9/10    If anyone here can read Arabic, would you mind telling me what the
        gist of /csua/tmp/pic.jpg is?  I got it at a flea market in
        southern Spain (no, it's not a pilot's manual.)  -John
        \_ The first few lines are the start of a prayer; I'm assuming the
           rest follows along.
           \_ Thanks!  It's hanging in my hallway, so I was curious. -John
           \_ It's not just "a prayer". it's al fatihah:
              it is the first surah of the qur'an. for an interpretation:
              -ayatollah ali rahimi.
                \_ Cool, thanks.  I read a translation of the koran a while
                   ago, and didn't think of comparing it.  Is the weird-
                   looking writing at the top of the image one of those bits
                   of arabic at the beginning of every surah that nobody can
                   interpret?  I seem to recall reading something along those
                   lines.  -Rev. John
2004/9/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33408 Activity:high
9/7     This is incredibly stupid but I was literally ROFL:
        \_ you're a moron.
           \_ Come on... their name is Doody and they love faggots.
              Laugh a little.
           \_ For hevean's sake.  It's kinda funny, don't be a jerk.
2004/9/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33379 Activity:very high
9/7     Does anyone have any recommendations for Foriegn bands?  I quite
        like the Mexican Rock band Mana, and the Korean singer Boa is
        sometimes ok.
        \_ TaTu
        \_ Vladimir Vysotskiy, Brathanski, Garmarna, Yann Tiersen, Ali
           Primera, Gilberto Gil, Bebel Gilberto, Astrud Gilberto, Tom Ze,
           Os Mutantes
        \_ If you like rap, MC Solaar has his moments.
        \_ Plastilina Mosh?  Phil's Finest Hour?  Chico Cesar?  Damien Rice?
        \_ Los Fabulosos Cadillacs (actually a hybrid) and Manu Chao are two
           of my favorites. Also, he's been dead for years but nobody's life
           is complete w/o some exposure to Serge Gainsbourg, like him or not.
            -- ulysses
        \_ Do you mean non-English-speaking, or just foreign bands you may
           not have heard of?  I'm a big fan of the Aussie band The Cat
           Empire.  You might also have good luck with the BBC's The World:
           On a totally unrelated note, has anyone here heard the new Bjork
           album? The two tracks I've heard sound pretty sweet.
        \_ Sektor Gaza, russia most popular rock n roll band
           \_ This must have been a joke, but anyways, just don't listen it in
              front of someone who speaks Russian.. As for Russian rock bands,
              DDT is certainly the best. The rest are just wannabes.
              \_ sektor gaza is awesome! check out these song
                 titles: http://csua.org/u/8y1 -danh
        \_ Hedningarna, Finnish techno-rock-folk group.
        \_ It'd be helpful if you mentioned what type of music you were
           interested in, but:
                Brazil: Carlinhos Brown, Caetano Veloso, Os Mutantes, Tom Ze
                Argentina: Reynols, Astor Piazzolla
                Scotland: The Delgados, The Pastels
                Scandinavia: 22-Pisterpirkko, Pan sonic, Stina Nordenstam,
                        Flesh Quartet, Sigur Ros
                Germany: Jan Delay, Absolut Beginner, Can, Neu
                France/Africa: Les Nubians, Khaled, Natacha Atlas
                \_ Finland: FINNTROLL
           Check out http://allmusic.com and/or pick up a copy of the Wire.
        \_ Why do you hate America?
2004/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33377 Activity:very high
9/6     Argument broke out among Chechens in Beslan raid:
        "Umar Sikoyev, a lawyer for a captured militant identified as
        Nur-Pashi Kulayev, said the band's leader did not tell them what their
        mission was and that after the seizure a fierce argument broke out in
        the band, with several objecting that taking children hostage was
        wrong. The raid's commander shot the dissidents' leader to death and
        then detonated the suicide belts worn by two women raiders by remote
        control to establish order in the band, Sikoyev told The Associated
        Note to dissident hostage-takers:
        (1) Shoot hellspawn leader first, ask questions later.
        (2) Don't wear suicide belt remote-controlled by evil leader.
        \_ This is a pretty normal set of rules for any military
           situation.  For example, if manning a base the Americans have
           just promised (we give warning usually) to drop a MOAB on, and
           your leader says "Stay at your posts," Shoot leader, THEN run.
           Not vice-versa.
           \_ I think this has been SOP since the German Kommisars started
              shooting deserters at Stalingrad.
           \_ These are not smart people.
              \_ As the old Dennis Miller might have put it, "First clue?
                 suicide belts as haute couture. I mean, come on, people,
                 those things are so 1999."
                 \_ wow ... people are actually quoting Dennis Miller
                    these days.
                    \_ *Old* Dennis Miller.  Pre-brainwashing.
           \_ I thought there are rules in the US military that says a leader
              cannot order his troops to do suicidal missions.
              \_ That's probably in the rules.  In fact, in general, it's
                 ok, if it serves some greater purpose.  However, at least
                 in the MOAB case, it's a totally worthless gesture, and
                 really stupid order.
2004/9/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33371 Activity:high
9/6     How come GSG9 can't operate outside of Germany? And how are the
        special forces in the US compare to the ones in Israel? I have a
        feeling that US is lagging because we rely so much on smart weapons
        and technology and not really training people for the higher risk
        \_ They can.  The German constitution has some very strict
           limitations on the foreign deployment of their armed forces. -John
           \_ No, they can not. They are not military.
              As for Israeli military, http://www.isayeret.com has all the info
              you want.
              \_ They are a branch of the Bundespolizei, and they _can_ very
                 well, however their regulations have been amended
                 to state that they do not.  It is not inconceivable that
                 they would, though, seeing as how Bundeswehr troops have
                 been deployed more flexibly since then (Afghanistan, Kosovo).
                 And my use of the term "armed forces" was unclear and ill-
                 defined--I tend to think of these as including non-military
                 but related organizations.  -John
        \_ special forces ARE smart weapons, and US special forces are quite
           good.  the problem is deciding when and how much to use them to
           avoid wearing them out or diluting their skills through rushed
           training and recycling.  also, different politically installed
           operational rules affect the outcome, e.g. part of the Israeli
           special forces reputation comes from how they've been used.
           \_ Size don't matter, it's how you use it!
              \_ ...and other myths invented by small men.
           \_ I still remember the disaster at Somalia.
2004/8/29-30 [Science/Biology, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33205 Activity:nil
8/29    The re-animator: http://tinyurl.com/538aa
2004/8/26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33149 Activity:very high
8/25    To the guy who keeps saying US is an empire in decline.  Consider
        the very vigor of political conversation in this country.  There is
        competition of ideas here, more so than in any other place on Earth.
        No empire in decline in history would have such vigor and such
        competition.  On a somewhat related note, Foucalt once remarked that
        americans go on pilgrimages to France the same way the
        french used to go to Italy in the 18th Century -- to see _a dying
        civilization_.  -- ilyas
        \_ I've never seen anyone write that statement, but I'd point to the
           "why do you hate america / if you're not with us you're with the
           terrorists" types to refute your political vigor comment.  That
           stuff (used non-ironically) really does make me worry.
           \_ Erm, America has lots of people, and America (due to its unique
              position in the world) is perhaps more loudly heard than some
              other places.  I don't think the percentage of idiots here is
              greater than anywhere else, but the above 2 things perhaps makes
              it seem so.  There are smart people who genuinely care about
              doing the right thing arguing with each other, in heated earnest
              here.  We take it for granted, but it's almost a unique feature
              of our culture -- other places seem a lot more homogenous to
              me. -- ilyas
                \_ The perception of being full of stupid people probably
                   partially stems from US media being fairly homogenous in
                   any given place compared to elsewhere--which leads to
                   some pretty undifferentiated opinions.  For a country
                   where a comparatively large %age of the population is
                   college educated, you do hear some fairly shocking views
                   expressed.  The metropolitan/university crowd that you and
                   I hang out with is no measure--the bulk of the population
                   lives in places like bumfuck Idaho and isn't quite as
                   cosmopolitan.  That, and American tourists have whiny nasal
                   voices.  -John
                   \_ That you would put forth the "we're smart and the other
                      guys are stupid bumfucks" steroetype as a serious point
                      is, at best, disappointing.  The bay area has just as
                      many closed minded stupid people who believe what
                      they're told without thought as anywhere else.  The
                      so-called metropolitan/university crowd is nothing
                      special.  Just how much of the rest of this country
                      have you visited and how deeply have you engaged in
                      conversation with those unwashed, uneducated, rural,
                      gap tooth hicks you think occupy the rest of the
                      non-Bay Area parts of the country?  I do agree with you
                      that our media is pathetic.
                        \_ I am not merely referring to the BA.  I hate to
                           say it, but rural populations tend to have less
                           access to differentiated media and education than
                           urban types.  It's the same in Europe, except that
                           most rural communities are far closer to some
                           metropolitan center, and hence have better access
                           to information (not always right.)  -John
                           \_ Rural areas have the same access to newspaper
                              deliver, TV, cable, the net, satellites, and
                              everything else a city dweller has.  This isn't
                              the 1850s.  You're also still stuck on the
                              "cities are full of smart people, rural people
                              are stupid bumfucks" stereotype.  I've met more
                              than enough closed minded morons here to assure
                              me that stupidity is evenly spread out.
        \_ Ilya, whether it is one or not, the US certainly exhibits a lot
           of symptoms of "empire in decline".  Losing grip on alliances it
           once dominated, military overextension, rise of both economically
           and militarily viable competition, brain drain (think stem cell
           research moving to the UK), currency no longer used as a peg of
           absolute value due to several factors including overspending
           domestically--I could go on.  I'm not doing a chicken little here;
           empires nowadays no longer collapse and get overrun by visigoth
           hordes, but the US certainly shows signs of moving towards a way
           more conservative pattern of international prominence in a lot of
           aspects.  -John
           \_ Diplomatically this is certainly true -- Europe is not fond of
              the current administration.  Of course, Europe doesn't need the
              alliance with the US, i don't think it's reasonable to expect
              a tight, Cold War style huddling for warmth.  To draw a comparison
              to 19th century, none of the great powers felt obliged to be
              particularly cozy with Britain -- they had their own interests
              to worry about.  Military overextension is also true, but only
              because we aren't on a war footing.  I think the fact that we
              fought two wars recently without any real impact on consumers
              (compare WWII) is actually kind of amazing.  There are some
              structural problems with the way americans borrow, but I am not
              an economist, and don't undestand the implications of that.
              It could be problematic a la the Spanish gold collapse.  To
              summarize, things are not entirely peachy in the US, but it's hard
              to separate short term issues of policy from long term trends.
              At any rate, long term negative trends to me seem like symptoms
              of a disease, and I don't feel a disease here. -- ilyas
                \_ Fallacy of equation.  These were not "wars", but rather
                   what was referred to as "police actions" in the 1950s.  And
                   remember, it's not just Europe--a lot of the world has
                   reached a level of political and economic maturity unheared
                   of during the cold war.  The imperial presence is
                   increasingly no longer needed.  As for the disease, as an
                   "outsider", I see a definite fraying of the healthy
                   relationship between "the government" and "the people".  As
                   for your parallel with Great Britain, they had two
                   imperial foci--the "great powers" game, and the rest of
                   the underdeveloped world.  We do not have this to anything
                   near such a degree.  As it stands, the US is making the
                   tragic mistake of pursuing a foreign policy which seems
                   almost calculated to piss off the unwashed masses around
                   the world, while not being seen as consistent and moral
                   enough to get away with it.  In any case, you bring up too
                   many points to address thoroughly, sorry.  -John
        \_ I am empire in decline guy, but John says most of what I would
           say, but better. Didn't England have a pretty vigorous
           political culture from 1890-1950, during its similar period?
           \_ England at the height of their power was weaker than the US
              is today.  An empire does not collapse because of 4 to 8
              years of short term policy the Europeans don't like.  The idea
              that the rest of the third world once loved us and doesn't
              now because of the current administration is just silly.  The
              third world never loved us.  We only sent them money because
              the Soviets did and vice versa.  When was this magical period
              in time when our allies were super close to us and did all we
              wanted?  When the Soviets were knocking on their door.  Without
              the ultimate military threat on their eastern boarder, of course
              they don't want to do what we say anymore.  They don't have to
              so why should they?  Countries don't have friends and allies,
              they only have self interests.  Without the Soviets, it is no
              longer in their self interests to go along with any of our
              policies unless it directly benefits them.  Iraq is a great
              example.  They made lots of money off Hussein and the Russians
              were still owed billions of dollars which they badly needed.
              What did we offer in return to replace that money for our allies
              if they joined us?  Feeling good about toppling a butcher?  We
              offered nothing and they did the logical thing in their own
              self interest.  The US may not last forever but it sure as
              hell isn't an empire in decline.  Even the word 'empire' is
              wrongly applied.  If this is an empire, then the world has
              never seen an empire like this.  We have tremendous economic,
              political, and cultural power.  So much so that anytime we
              sneeze the rest of the world quivers due to the great imbalance
              of power.  But we very rarely actively go out of our way to do
              anything with that power.  Compare to Rome, the British Empire,
              ancient Sparta, the Ottomans, the rise and fall of Islam, the
              communist Russians, China right now, and many others.
        \_ You error in finding public US political conversation vigorous.
           Americans have become more shrill as both sides rush to extremes
           and found sin in moderation. America is not an empire in decline,
           but one without vision. It's a land torn with selfrighteousness,
           selfassurance, and false humility, barely able to trust it's own
           council much less that of others, and blindly following a mutant
           dogma of "pure" Capitalism and psuedo-Christian ethics to justify
           it's lack of humanity and vision. The mistake of empires is not
           caused by it's own power, be political, economic, social or
           military, but by it's own inability to find the strength to change.
           In that, America has the advantage. It has redirected and rebuilt
           itself several times. The question lies in will it be able to do
           it again when the time comes.
           \_ The time is always now.  It is always changing.  You're looking
              too closely at the trees, ignoring the forest.  (Heh, I always
              wanted to jam that cliche into some conversation, thanks!)
2004/8/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33068 Activity:insanely high
8/21    Why is it that a miserable 3rd world nation such as China has
        more number of GOLD medals than USA, the world's wealthiest and
        most technologically advanced nation in the entire world? We
        spend billions and billions on advanced training,
        advanced technology, and advanced scienticfic research on
        our atheletes, and yet only 20 gold? For example, the runners
        get to try out the altitude tank to simulate oxygen deprivation,
        ball players try out really advanced computer simulations
        on strategies/etc, and the scientists/nutritionists customize
        the intake and monitoring of the atheletes based on advanced
        instrumentations and advanced nutritional science. With
        everything on our side, a low-tech nation such as China still
        gets more gold medals. WHY?
        \_ Because "western" nations do not treat 10 year old children like
           fucking science lab test subjects.  You'll note that the US wins
           way more medals than other "civilized" countries like, say, France
           or Japan or the UK.  -John
           \_ perhaps you should ask the chinese athletes whether they like
              to be where they are as opposed to planting sorghum at
              Big Cow village.  US dominance of track and field, etc. is itself
              the result of a big science project of selectively breeding
              african slaves.
                \_ Troll harder.  I didn't realize Kim Collins was US?  How
                   about Hailegebre Selassie?  El Gerrouj?  And as for field,
                   don't make me laugh.  -John
                   \_ a few exceptions here and there doesn't make it
                      untrue.  it's your characterization of china's
                      sports program that's laughable.  many of them
                      are talented kids from poor villages who would
                      have ended up poor farmers for the rest of their
                      lives otherwise.  Their parents are only too glad
                      to let them have the opportunity.  they always
                      have the choice to refuse to let their children
                      go.  if what you said is true, how come the
                      aussies hired two coaches from china, and
                      immediately they win gold and bronze at 10m diving?
                      the aussies must like being lab test subjects
           \_ We Japanese has less than half the population of US, but
              half its medals.  We are superior.
                \_ W00t!  Better invade China 'n prove it.
        \_ Billions?  We don't spend a penny of tax payer dollars on them.
        \_ Using technology isn't always the best way to train. Haven't you
           seen Rocky 4?
        \_ They have 4 times as many people.
        \_ Why do you care?
        \_ Pretty sure this is a troll, but ...
           - We're going to have more gold medals when the Olympics are done.
             Much of the early standings are simply because of scheduling
             (Australia, for instance, halfway through the Games has already
             won most of the medals it'll win, because they're done with the
             events they're good at. We tend to do well at, say, track and
             field, which is only just starting.)
           - The US spends no tax dollars on athletics (this is almost
             unique among nations).
           - Our govt. doesn't select promising kids at age 6? 8? 10? and put
             them into special sports schools, as does China.
             \_ Yes, in America we have overzealous parents that do that.
                \_ You know the difference between tax dollars and parent's
                   personal dollars, right?
                   \_ Yes, the parents' dollars will not be wasted. -- ilyas
                      \_ Then the parents will probably not put their kid in
                         these types of programs, because most of these things
                         aren't economically viable in themselves. The effort
                         China puts in its programs appears to have national
                         prestige and propaganda as the primary purpose and
                         these are not things that parents would normally
                         spend their own money on for their country.
                         \_ That's sort of what I was driving at, yes. -- ilyas
                         \_ actually it's more and more like the US in China.
                            athletes get big endorsements, etc.  But it's
                            still a good idea to get the government involved,
                            otherwise poorer kids with talent from the small
                            towns and villages would not have any chance to
                            succeed since the facilities simply ain't there.
           - And as the previous poster pointed out, they have 4x as many
             people (and are wholly willing to put large amounts of resources
             into training them). Our athletes, when they reach world-class
             level, have access to the best training methods in the world,
             as do China's and 20 other countries ... we certainly have no
             advantage over China or Australia or the UK or dozens of other
             \_ as far as I know, our govornment doesn't really intervene
                _at_all_ in most sports.  I knew a guy in highschool who was
                training as an olympic figure skater, and as far as I know
                he never interacted with the U.S. government in any way.
                \_ Son, that's why god invented athletic scholarships and
                   corporate sponsors.
                   \_ Yeah, but those usually don't come into play until you're
                      ALREADY real good; it's hard when you're ages 10 to 18
                      and are only just getting good. There's some sports that
                      are going to be really difficult for the US to continue
                      to compete internationally. How many universities in the
                      entire US sponsor men's gymnastics? 20. With ~10 gymnasts
                      per team, a 200-person pool for your entire national team
                      is not a deep pool at all (all US men's gymnasts went
                      to US universities; also many universities host foreign
                      students, making the pool even shallower ...).
                   \_ The olympic sports and college (i.e. NCAA) sports are
                      disjoint.  Scholarships are not available for
                      non-collegiate sports.  Corporate sponsorship is
                      basically a marketing play which means that in order to
                      be sponsored for a non-token sum, you must be an
                      established athlete with wide name recognition. -dans
                \_ i hope my tax dollars never go into training athletes. get
                   over your stupid nationalism.
                   \_ I strongly agree with you, but I suspect that the pp
                      you're responding to would also agree that this is
                      a good thing.
                   \_ Well, consider the costs. Let's say we sent 500
                      athletes to Athens. Let's say we paid them each $200k/
                      year. That's $100M, or a little more than a quarter
                      dollar per American. Would I pay a few bucks to win a
                      few more medals? Yeah, probably. I'm philosophically
                      against funding the athletes, but in the eyes of
                      government, it's pocket change.
                      \_ but we don't do it, and we still win golds, so why
                         do it?  Also, if they did it, don't expect it
                         to be given out evenly accross the sports.  As a
                         fan of some of the more obscure sports, it would
                         really piss me off to see skiing get disproportionately
                         subsidised.  If someone wants to subsidize sports
                         that people like to watch on TV, let the networks
                         who make all the money off of it do it.
                      \_ I wouldn't pay 1 penny to make the US teams win every
                         gold medal every time.
                         \_ there is plenty of information out there about
                            the societal benefits of athletic programs for
                            \_ Absolutely.  Agreed.  Sports in schools and
                               for kids in general is a great thing.  Just not
                               subsidies for advanced sports research shit so
                               "we" can win medals in some over-commercialized
                               and corrupt dope-a-thon.  -John
        \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5635973/site/newsweek
           "17,000 full-time athletes supported by provincial and city
            governments" (compared to zero in the US)
        \_ Because we are an imperial power in decline. Every time I point
           this out, I get called an America-hater, but I just like to
           see the world as it really is, not some Hollywood fantasy of it.
           Expect China to pass us in many other things in the next 20
           \_ *laugh*  There has never been a greater power on the planet.  The
              only power that is likely to ever be greater is if one day there
              is a true single world government that supercedes all national
              \_ Don't be so proud of your technological terror.  The
                 ability to have a single world government is insignificant
                 next to the power of the Force. -geordan
           \_ I haven't called you America-Hater but I am wondering if you are
              the same guy as the 'nuanced worldview' guy who claims 90% of
              stuff in the 'real world' is personal stuff and vendettas.  You
              sound like spiritual soul mates, and are both liberals, most
              likely.  And both wrong.  America is stronger now than it has
              ever been.  America is stronger now than any imperial power at
              any time in history, including Rome, Britain, HRE, Habsburg
              Austria, anything.  You are either a troll or an idiot.
              \_ Nah, I will take the British Empire over America in terms
                 of power and accomplishments.
                 \_ Such as going to space and the moon, better health, longer
                    lives, a standard of living for the average citizen that
                    makes British Royalty of the past look like the lower
                    classes here now, no real enemies, safe to walk the streets
                    at night in most places, access to affordable and often
                    free education generally available, and a safety net the
                    British Empire never dreamed of.  And that's just off the
                    top of my head.  What were the British Empire's accomplish-
                    ments?  Turning both Afirca and the Middle East into hell
                    holes intentionally?  Thanks British Empire!
                    \_ errr ... the idea is to compare with contemporary
                       rivals.  also, a lot of the things you mentioned
                       are not good benchmarks of strength and power.
                       Switzerland also doesn't have enemies, and has
                       safe streets, free education, safety net, etc.
                       That doesn't make it a powerful country.
                       \_ Playing Victoria teaches you a lot about power
                          dynamics at the time of the British Empire (even if
                          it's just a silly game).  As Britain you did NOT want
                          the next 2-3 powers to gang up on you.  Britain had
                          a pretty light touch as an imperial power, because
                          they had no choice.  Britain had structural
                          weaknesses, foremost of which was their small
                          population and size (compared to the vast geographic
                          area of their holdings).  US has no real weaknesses,
                          except for oil, and that's only a weakness because
                          there is no will to make it go away.  -- ilyas
                          \_ US has plenty of weaknesses.  Its power is
                             dependent on an economic system that requires
                             the willing participation of allies and other
                             countries in Europe and Asia.  With the
                             introduction of guerilla warfare, occupying
                             other countries has also become prohibitively
                             expensive for America, as shown in Vietnam
                             and Iraq.  Then there is still Russia, which
                             can wipe out the US with the push of a button.
                       \_ Fuck powerful countries. Their only use is to counter
                          other powerful countries that might fuck you over.
                          The nationalist bullshit even in the olympics annoys
                          the hell out of me, all those national anthems after
                          every event. To me it actually takes away from the
                          individual achievements, the way the athletes are
                          made to personify their countries. Ideally, most team
                          sports should be eliminated from the Olympics and
                          the focus put on individual performances like it was
                          in ancient times.
           \_ I've seen you post this a number of times, and I've never
              seen anyone call you an America Hater.  Especially since
              this has little to do with the subject, I think you're a
              troll.  How about, Neo-con Troll?
              \_ neo-con troll?  have you ever listened to NPR?  maybe
                 they're all neocon trolls as well.  what you've just seen
                 is the typical NPR listener in action.
                 \_ Yes, but he's trolling FOR Neo-Cons.  Although, sure.
                    NPR Troll?  Empire Troll?
              \_ I think it has everything to do with the subject. China
                 is no longer a pissant third world country anymore. And
                 I detest the Neocons.
                 \_ All 7 of them?  It isn't a huge movement.  And yes, China
                    is still very much a pissant third world country.  They
                    can't even retake their own break away province much less
                    pose any sort of threat to the US.  If we were a brutal
                    conquering nation like they are we would have stomped
                    them decades ago.
                    \_ we ain't?  where are all the indians then?
                       \_ Getting rich with their casinos.
                          \_ Good idea.  Let's turn the Potala Palace
                             into a big casino.
              \_ WTF does anything this guy is saying have to do with
                 conservatives, neo or otherwise?
                 \_ See above reply.  The guy sounds like the's trolling
                    to make Neo-Cons angry.  If you don't know why, look
                    up the definition of Neo-Con.
        \_ The only reason China is ahead of America is because
           America gave them a free gold:
           \_ What happened to the csuamotd/csuamotd login?
        \_ The whole premise is false.  For whatever reason, China has always
           been strongest at the the items that got competed earlier, and
           whichAmerica (and the west) by and large do not care and hardly
           even consider as a regular sports (TABLE tennis???).  If you
           go back to olympic history, you will see the Chinese team get
           a bunch of medals at the start, then get stuck there for the
           rest of game, while the 3rd reich, the USSR , and Amerika
           will have a steady and linear increase.  They are the really
           competitors in the olympics.
           \_ yes but at least they dont have table tennis to 15 points,
              to 21 points, 50 points and 100points.
           \_ china is good at sports that require skills, intelligence
              and precision.  us is good at sports that require brute
              power, cause us has lots of africa athletes.
              \_ So basically any sport where you don't have to sweat or
                 move much.
                 \_ you do have to sweat.  it's just that sweating like
                    a dumb mule won't by itself win you any medal.
              \_ extremely weak troll.
                 \_ it may be a troll but it's also the truth.  besides
                    the message it's replying to is also a troll.
        \_ For the same reason lots of inner city kids are good in some sports.
           It's a way out. 'nuff said.
2004/8/16 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32933 Activity:very high
8/16    Is it just me or do the Olympic Games in Greece this year seem
        to really suck? It seems like nobody is really interested in them
        and the stands are all empty. There doesn't seem to be a lot of
        promotion either. I remember the games back in 2000 sure seemed
        a bit more exciting. And it seems like the US, Germany, Russia,
        traditional Olympic powerhouses are really sucking this year.
        \_ The USA vs Puerto Rico basketball game was most exciting game!
            \_ Why do you hate America?
                 \_ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are
                    we.  They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our
                     country and our people, and neither do we."
                     \_ Did anyone notice that on the 'Al-Qaeda hard drive'
                        they refered to the CIA and Mossad as 'Foreign
                        \_ I don't get your point.
        \_ It would be more exciting if something blew up.
        \_ I'd be interested except I hate the coverage. I don't have a Tivo
           so it's basically unwatchable. It feels like half the time is
           spent with commercials, theme music, and random commentators.
2004/8/14-16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32900 Activity:nil
8/14    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/117d14c8-ed63-11d8-a587-00000e2511c8.html
        US removing 70k troops from Europe, mostly Germany.  About fucking
        time, too.  I think we can all agree this is a good thing.
2004/8/8 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32764 Activity:high
8/7     Terrorism (ALF) is winning, and nothing is being done to stop it:
        (This kind of terrorism can kill far more people invisibly.)
        \_ I always love this argument that we don't need animal testing
           for medical research.  Just goofy.  ALthough I suppose if
           they're so interested in saving the animals, they could just
           volunteer to be tested on themselves...
        \_ 1. PC in the UK is far worse than any such stupidity we ever came
           up with in the US
           2. It's my personal observation that people in the UK are far more
           likely to jump on whatever bandwagon du jour they hear about in
           the rainbow press
           3. Carrying handguns is all but illegal there.
           Add this up, and you have pretty fertile ground for this kind of
           crap.  -John
           \_ The problemis no one, government, private association, or
              individual, is making an organize resistance to such groups.
              Imagine if someone turns ALF's tactics on itself, it will go
              away in a few months.
              \_ You mean like the way the isrealis have eliminated Palestinian
                 terrorism in a few months?
2004/8/6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32753 Activity:high
8/6     We do it to ours, we do it to theirs:
        \_ They are highly expendable.
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:32643 Activity:insanely high
8/2     Very interesting article.  It is now clear that we deliberately
        went to Vietnam by provoking the North Vietnamese:
        http://tinyurl.com/4t7kk                        (NPR)
        Listen to the full analysis.
        This is a far cry from the "Communist aggression" we've portraited
        for generations.
        \_ Old news, nothing new to see here. If you were actually alive
           during the 'Nam war you would've realized this. Time you went
           back to 20th Century American History 101.
        \_ Just like we provoked them in '75, when they
           subsequently slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Cambodians
           and millions deserted on rafts.  You're a complete fool;
           a perfect Kerry voter.
           \_ Uhm, the Khmer Rouge/Vietnam war was at best a muddled affair.
              Don't know which was worse, Pol Pot killing 2 million or
              the Vietnamese coming in and slaughtering the Pol Pot regime.
              It's just a nasty business either way and just underscores
              how bad communism really was.
              \_ Pol Pot was a byproduct of France and the Communist
                 Vietnamese and Chinese
           a perfect Kerry voter.
        \_ Here's another newsflash, LBJ was a DEMOCRAT!  Oh my golly!
        \_ We thought it was Communism spread by the Soviet Union, but
           actually it was just a nationalist movement, which we would have
           not had a problem with.  Oops!
           \_ We would not have had a problem with, except that we were
              there in the first place backing up the French, who felt
              they needed to reassert their roles as colonialists after
              WWII.  If he had listened to Ho Chi Min and told France to
              stuff it's colonialism where the sun doesn't shine earlier,
              we could have saved everyone a lot of trouble.
              \_ Given that France has a tradition of anti-Americanism, why
                 on earth did we try to save its ass in indochine?
                 \_ Anti-Americanism?! The country that gave us the Statue
                    of Liberty and helped us defeat the British?
                    \_ Wrong France. Try again.  Read a history book.
                       \_ Which part are you disputing, idiot?
                          \_ Read a history book, you ignorant slut.  I
                             dispute your historical comments.  All of them.
                             Know wtf you're talking about before calling
                             someone an idiot.  Go check the dates for the
                             French Revolution.  Idiot, indeed.
                             \_ You dispute that France gave the Statue of
                                Liberty to the US? Which country was
                                France imitating with the revolution? Moron.
                 \_ We wanted them to join NATO.
                 \_ Live and learn.  Frenchies get pretty friendly when
                    they're getting their butt's kicked by Germans.
              \_ Actually 2/3 of Vietnam voted, yes voted, in an
                 election to remain aligned with France.  This was an
                 unsatisfactory result for Ho Chi Min hence the civil
                 war.  What he could not obtain by election was taken
                 by force.
                 \_ That's a new one to me.  Link?
           \_ It was not 'nationalist' movement.  Ho Chi Min and the
              other cadre were laways tried and true Communists, even
              during WWII.  The common foot soldier may have thought
              he was fighting for freedom, but as soon as the war
              was over he found out otherwise (as is always the case
              with these Communist insurrections).  Of course anyone
              who then caused trouble was summarily shot.
              \_ "Want to do what I say, and you're free to do what you
              \_ While they were communists, my contention is that it was
                 nationalism that is what actually mattered.  They were not
                 toadies of the Soviet Union.
2004/7/20 [Health/Disease/General, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32375 Activity:insanely high
7/20    Lenin died of STD.
        http://www.csua.org/u/89f (Yahoo! News)
        \_ this has been known for decades.
2004/7/20 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32371 Activity:high
7/20    Dear German John, HEIL! Where/how did you learn your German, and
        what other languages do you speak?
        \_ I took inspiration from your mom's muffled screams. -John
2004/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32339 Activity:high
7/18    Why euro-peons hate amerika:
        \_ would anyone be willing to comment from experience on where
           canada stands on the statism spectrum?  closer to the US or to
           Europe?  would his criticisms apply to canada?
        \_ Wow.  That's so formulaic, it's amusing.
           Part 1: what he used to think (establish author as fair and
                   unbiased critic who's seen both sides of the issue)
           Part 2: his "enlightenment"
           Part 3: occasional acceptance of some small flaw is his new
                   perfect XYZ, usually revoked by some later "but..." section
                   to further the appearance of objectivity
           Part 4: set extremist work from opposing view up as strawman, and
                   use it to demonstrate validity of all arguments
           \_ So.. uhh.. what's your point?  Perhaps it's formulaic
              because that's what his experiance was actually like?  That
              formula of thinking is very common when you live for a few
              years in a foriegn country.  Although I don't know that
              part 4 was particularly useful.  Are you saying the article
              is invalid or untrue because it is formulaic?
           \_ interesting article (ostensibly a book review) on this
              http://snipurl.com/7uhd [nytimes]
2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32316 Activity:very high
7/16    Could someone a little more versed in Israli politics than I am
        please explain why the hell Mossad would want to illegally infiltrate
        New Zealand?
        \_ One theory I heard is that jews with NZ passports don't arouse
           nearly as much suspicion when traveling in other countries as they
           would carrying an Israeli passport.  There was a previous incident
           with Mossad forging Canadian passports.
        \_ Maybe they're not Mossad like they insist?
        \_ We all know how much socialists hate Jews.
        \_ They're trying to steal our super-sheep technology!
           \_ That's top-sheepcret!
              \_ naw, they're just afraid of getting lamb-pooned in the
                 media if it doesn't work.
              \_ I know a little German.  He's right over there.
                 \_ Do you have a little German in you?
           \_ Yup, the top-secret NZ sheep-cloning technology that has existed
              for decades which made their sheep-rearing industry so
              successful.  The New Zealanders laughed at Dolly the Sheep.
              \_ Dolly was ugly. If you're gonna clone, clone the pretty ones.
                 \_ All sheep look the same to me.
                    \_ We're not talking about the rear view here.
                    \_ RACIST!
                    \_ SHEEPIST!
                    \_ In the dark, they all look alike.
2004/7/16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Recreation/Media] UID:32314 Activity:very high
7/16    I'm starting to get aqua teen hunger force.
        \_ explain it to me --aaron
           \_ I think the point is to drink/stay up late... don't question
              why the alien sounds german or is trying to replicate a milkshake
              by putting its photograph in a microwave.
              \_ Heees name ees Oglethorp!
           \_ You must be over thirty (or maybe about 25) to board this ride but
              it's not like you're missing anything. -- ulysses
              \_ I don't think it's that mature.  I think most of the humor
                 would appeal just fine to a 16-year old.
              \_ I'm 34.  I think it's just weird.
           \_ For my money, it's the stream of conciousness style and the
              willingness to "go there".  Some eps are more hit-or-miss but
              they've had a bunch where everything is just dead on.  It feels
              like a good improv group on meth.  --scotsman
        \_ "Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of
            trust... and friendship."  - Ignignokt
        \_ I've never watched a full episode but my tivo always records 3
           minutes of it after Futurama, and I think that's a perfect amount
           of the show to watch. You gotta love meatwad.
        \_ I must be over 30 (I am) because I have no idea WTF it is. This
           is a Fox show?
           \_ Almost Dadaist cartoon on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim.
              A box of french fries, a milkshake and a ball of meat live in
              New Jersey and sometimes attempt to solve crimes, but mostly just
              screw everything up.
              If you want to see a little, there's useually some on P2P.
2004/7/15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32295 Activity:very high 60%like:32292
        \_ Uhm, this is one of the more bizarre edits I've seen.  I...don't
           know what to say....
           \_ You mean you've never heard of Commander Bunnypants?!?!!!!11!
              http://csua.org/u/875 (kbtoys.com)
        \_ Nice OPINION & EDITORIAL link, CAPITAL LETTERS boy.
           \_ Trouble reading?  The URL is clearly from the op/ed page.
              As if this is the first time an op/ed piece has been
              posted to the motd, genius.  Some of you knuckleheads are
              posting links from blogs as 'proof' of your points!  -!op
                \_ the NYPOST editorial pages are even more retarded
                   than most blogs.
                   \_ In your opinion.  And that's what this is all about:
                      opinion.  Since the NYP has greater readership than
                        \_ i read the nyp every day, you are a moron.
                           you obviously are not familiar with the history
                           of the NYPOST, or who owns and runs it,
                           or that they have been an even bigger journalistic
                           laughingstock than normal recently.
                           \_ Which still puts them well above your blogs and
                              your rude interruption of my post.
                                \_ oh are you going to cry?  i hope so.
                                   useless unthinking republican drone troll.
                                   \_ hahhaha got nothing to say so you resort
                                      to the lowest form of attack.  would you
                                      \_ I'm not sure what's more pathetic --
                                         that fact that you got trolled by a
                                         childishly simple ploy, or that you
                                         need it pointed out to you.
                                      like to try again or just give up and
                                      go home?
                \_ ok i'm trying to understand the NYPOST's spin on
                   lord higgins' report, i don't fully understand it yet.
                      any blog and people actually *pay* to read it and
                      other people get paid to write it, I'll take that over
                      some random blog spew anyday.  Are you really truly
                      seriously trying to claim that blogs are anything more
                      than raw unedited spewage?
                        \_ It's still dumb.  And OP's caps lock was stuck.
                           \_ It can be dumb.  Lots of things are dumb but
                              to bash someone for posting from the NYP when
                              others here don't get bashed the same for trying
                              to use friggin' blogs as a source of proof for
                              anything is idiotic.  Caps don't bother me enough
                              to make a whole thread about them.  If they
                              bother you that much I'd like to trade my
                              problems for yours.
                              \_ The bloggers pull directly from news outlets
                                 across the board, have no financial stake in
                                 diseminating the information, and some are
                                 remarkably intelligent.  Your ranting against
                                 them is ill-founded.
                                 \_ They pull directly from news outlets of
                                    their choice no different from Drudge. What
                                    do you think Drudge is?  He's the ultimate
                                    news puller but you don't ever have to read
                                    his personal drivel mixed in.  Just the
                       \_ wonkette, the blogger you love to hate, is paid
                          and has an editor. Many bloggers make a living
                          on their blogs by selling ads. Does this make
                          them more respectable in your eyes, or less?
                          \_ Hey, wait, the above said they don't have a
                             financial stake in blogging?  Which is it?  And
                             how does making a living off it make them any
                             better than Drudge?
                \_ ok i'm trying to understand the NYPOST's spin on
                   lord higgins' report, i don't fully understand it yet.
        \_ So... they weren't lying... they just don't like to read?
        \_ I bet you the guy who posted this likes to slam Michael Moore, too.
           Compared to the post, he's fucking Truth.
           \_ Wow, a poor editorial compared to a different poor
              editorial, and you can pick which one is THE TRUTH?  Oh, I
              see.  It's the one that agrees with your poor opinions.
              \_ So what, in your opinion, constitutes a great Opinion?  Heh.
                 \_ MY OWN!
                    \_ Your precious?
                    \_ You know what they say about opinions and assholes...
                       \_ Nothing is more important than your own?
2004/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32255 Activity:very high
7/12    What is the etymological connection between Anglo-Saxon (English)
        and Anglo-Franks (French)?                      -history dumb
        \_ There is no such thing as Anglo-Franks.  Anglo-Saxon refers to
           the descendents of the bilingual Vikings who hacked their way to
           Britan, who later also hacked their way to this country.
           \_ I think they sailed.
        \_ Rather long and complicated, but the gist is that English is based
           on Germanic roots rather than Roman roots so English and French are
     in reality from completely seperate linguistic families. However, because
           of the constant invasions and migrations of peoples through the
           British isles English has become a mishmash of Germanic and Romance
          languages, hence the weird spelling of certain words and the usage of
           certain French terms that are only found in English.
           \_ Case in point.  In English, words for livestock are native, while
              words for livestock meat are French.  The reason: during the
              Norman invasion, the gentry were all French, while the peasants
              were English.  The peasants grew livestock, and the gentry ate
              it. -- ilyas
                \_ wow I never noticed that, that is really interesting.
                   tell us more ilyas!!!
                   \_ obTellusaboutthestarsilyas!
                      \_ obw00t!
              \_ Isn't it also why the English words for things are
                 considered dirty (i.e. fuck)?
                 \_ Va t'enculer.
                 \_ The history and etymology of 'bad language' is an
                    interesting subject.  I think it's an oversimplification to
                    say 'fuck' is only bad because the prissy normans didn't
                    like the short stubby anglo words for things.  'Fuck'
                    comes from German 'Ficken' I think, which means to
                    bludgeon.  The word is 'bad' perhaps because it implies
                    intercourse is a kind of violent act. -- ilyas
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32242 Activity:very high
7/12    Facism, anyone? http://csua.org/u/85n -- The 14 common characteristics
        of fascist regimes -- ring any bells?
        \_ The Council for Secular Humanism?  This is way worse than
        \_ Well, the obvious point of this piece is to say that
           Bush = Fascist, but it does a pretty poor job of substatiating
           that claim. Many of the points it tries to make don't apply to
           Bush at all.  Some don't even apply to Fascism.  (The one about
           religion is a pretty obvious secular humanists swipe at
           religion, but has little to do with what was actually done in
           fascist governments.)  The ones that are refelcted with Bush
           are often a big stretch.  A few fascist like tendencies are
           shown to be in the Bush-like, but I don't think it's any
           more than you would see between Hitler and say, FDR.
           \_ But FDR is a facist with a socialist bend.
              \_ how true, it was said FDR envied Stalin because
                 he was such an effective collectivist.  Would explain
                 their friendship.
                 \_ "it was said"? By whom? Freepers?
              \_ FDR = fascist is just as patently absurd as Bush = fascist.
                 FDR defeated fascism.  I don't think any of you or the people
                 in the URL really understand the word "fascism."
                 \_ Thank you.  Can anyone here actually define fascism
                    for me?  I had a roommate who hated Regan because he
                    was a "fascist" but he could never point to any
                    specific instances, or even tell me what that meant.
                    \_ fascism : a political theory advocating an authoritarian
                       hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy
                       or liberalism).  Its really not that complicated.
                       Perfectly describes the result of the policies of the
                       New Deal and the left today.
                    \_ The URL above is a paraphrase of a very common
                       14 point definition.  Its workable but I think
                       the comparison to Bush falls down (I dislike
                       Bush as much as the next guy but calling him
                       Hitler is hyberbole).  There was a recent
                       book on this subject that got favorable reviews,
                       but the name escapes me at the moment.
                    \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
                       is as good a definition of fascism as
                       you are going to find anywhere.
                    \_ it's not something just a one-sentence little blurb
                       could sufficiently describe. mussolini wrote an essay
                       defining it:
                       As that site mentions, the term comes from "fasces"
                       which were held by Roman officials as symbols of the
                       authority of their office. Basically it's authoritarian
                       nationalism, the idea that only strong authority can
                       lead a nation to greatness and vitality, the State
                       being more important than individuals.
                       being more important than individuals. There's also
                       the notion that this national struggle is the only thing
                       with meaning, with the wars and all, making your place
                       in history; that otherwise you might as well be dead.
                       Which helps explain how Hitler could just roll the dice
                       with millions of lives in the balance.
           \__ Actually, most fascist governments do form an alliance
               with organized religion. See Italy, Brazil, Argentina,
               Spain, Chile and Indonesia for examples. A few did not.
        \_ yes the Dems like Schumer, Hillary the witch and WJC.
        \_ Bush is a Fascist!  Bush is a Fascist! Saying it enough times
           makes it true!
           \_ You should watch Starship Troopers.
              \_ I did one better, I read the book.
                 \_ Watch the movie again.  Movies work.
                    \_ Work for what? BTW, have YOU read the book?
                       \_ Movies work in the ways that books don't.  I have
                          not read the book, but now you mention it, I will.
                          I can understand why you would not want to see the
                          movie (again) if you've read the book.
                          \_ Don't bother. The difference is that Heinlein
                             basically advocated fascism - particularly in ST.
                             The movie was, by contrast, a satire on the book's
                             enthusiasm for fascism. MANY people did not figure
                             this out, though. -- ulysses
                             \_ I guess I'm one of them then -- IIRC, positions
                                in government were decided by a popular vote.
                                I honestly don't see how that's fascist.
        \_ If you are a liberal, please don't use the term fascist to describe
           the Bush administration.  It's become an epithet.
           \_ Saying that it has become an epithet is also saying that it
              once wasn't one.
              \_ In Italy, it's quite common for people to still identify
                 themselves as communists or fascists. --studied there
              \_ "Fascist" as applied to Mussolini and Hitler's regimes is
                 \_ Accurate for what?  You mean it's an accurate
                    description of Bush's policies?  Only if "Communist"
                    is an accurate description of Clinton's policy.  Maybe
                    you should re-read the definition of fascim linked to
                    \_ "Fascist" is accurate, low on the epithet meter, and
                       acceptable in academic publications when applied to
                       Mussolini and Hitler's regimes.  And I *just* said,
                       please don't use the term fascist to describe the
                       Bush administration.
           \_ If you are a conservative, please don't use the terms communist,
              terrorist, America-hater, etc. etc. to describe liberals.  Can
              we all just get along?!?!
              \_ The word you are looking for is "socialist".
                 Conservatives : fascist :: Liberals : socialist
           \_ The Bush Administration certainly has fascist tendencies. But
              they are also certainly not fascist. At least not as long
              as we continue to have elections and free speech.
                \_ Right.  No one is suggesting Bush is a fascist.  However,
                   his adminstration does appear to be pulling this country
                   more towards that direction.
                   \- is it not obvious that "fascist" when used to describe
                      BUSH CO is indended as an epithet rather than a term
                      from political science, just as when BUSH is described
                      as an idiot or moron it is also an epithet and not a
                      allegation that his tested iq fals into a particular
                      band. same for john ashcroft is a nazi etc. trying to
                      find precision where it isnt intended is ... dumb --psb
2004/7/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:31158 Activity:insanely high
7/4     Happy 4th! In other news, the Dutch are the tallest ppl in the
        world, and have overtaken the americans big time. Interesting
        reasons why like uneven distribution of wealth, lack of health
        care, and the richest country in the world not investing enough
        in it's children: http://tinyurl.com/yrjma
        \_ is this the etymology of "flying Dutchman"?
        \_ two contradictory facts in the article: "rich people are taller"
           and "Bruintjes is a Dutch, 7'4", and works as a security
           \_ "rich" in a global context--his kids have access to good
              healthcare, well thought-out nutrition, and a not too shabby
              public education (his idiotic taxes notwithstanding.)  -John
        \_ No, because we take in more people from poor countries who came
           here underfed.  If you only checked height and other factors
           starting with 3rd generation citizens the numbers would be
           remarkably different.  How many immigrants do the Dutch take in
           every year?
           \_ You are wrong. Read The Economist on the same subject.
              \_ I'm wrong?  Ok, so the US isn't taking in poor people from
                 all over?  Perhaps you could elaborate instead of making a
                 blanket accusation of wrongness with a vague reference to
                 TE as your only backing?
                 \_ Yep, you're wrong. And you don't read The Economist,
                    or you wouldn't be. And no, I won't tell you my password.
                    But the study authors already accounted for the influx
                    of immigrants.
           \_ Holland takes in tons of immigrants, in fact the whole country
              is getting pretty full since it is so tiny.  I don't know
              what the relative rates are compared to the USA.
              \_ Relative percentages count when you're doing country vs.
                 country comparisons.  Comparing Holland to the US on just
                 about anything is just plain silly but if you're going to
                 do so at least get the right numbers.
        \_ Obviously this is Bush and Reagan's fault.
           \_ Vote for Balkenende, he's TALLER.
           \_ BushCo!!!!  EEEEVVVVVIIIILLLL and shorter than the average
2004/6/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:31071 Activity:high
6/29    Attack Iran, US chief ordered British
        \_ The US doesn't "order" the British to do anything.
        \_ While we're at it, why don't we talk about when the British
           ordered U.S. troops to attack Soviet troops back in 1918.
           What? You don't know about that?
2004/6/27 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:31025 Activity:high
6/27    British authorities, on Fox News's violations of "due impartiality":
          "... Fox News could justifiably claim to have achieved a level of
           accuracy and impartiality that was appropriate to its audience in
           the US, where different rules apply."
        \_ Hehe, cool.  From a place where the press is so far left they
           make the LAT look down right fascist.  It's important to know
           who your critics are.  When certain people are critical you
           know you're doing a good job.  When they squeal constantly,
           you've achieved greatness.
           \_ The UK press is not "so far left...".  It is heavily editorial,
              and like most European papers, much more so than we're used to
              in the US.  The Guardian tends to be very leftist, the Times
              totally in the other direction, and the notorious tabloids
              whatever will get the short pants wearing soccer hooligans
              buying the paper that particular day.  Please be a bit more
              differentiated in your statements, even if you are a bit
              uninformed.  -John
           \_ Nonono ... it's the far-left New York Times, not the LA Times.
              The LAT is just a NYT wannabe!
              \_ Dude, look at a map sometime.  LA is obviously left of NY.
2004/6/21 [Health/Disease/General, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30934 Activity:high
6/21    For the guy who wanted to learn German, don't.  It's not a language,
        it's a throat disease.  Learn a nice language like French or Japanese
        or something.  -John
        \_ Japanese is also a throat disease.  If you have to learn an axis
           language, try italian.
           \_ A schizophrenic mess, yes, but throat disease? The furthest back
              fricative or stop in Japanese is palatal. -- ulysses
           \_ If you're lingually adept enough for Italian, you'll have no
              trouble learning the phonetics of Japanese.  The grammar and
              writing system are a whole 'nother kettle of fish-heads. -erikred
              \_ For some of those Italian girls I'd be lingually anything.
        \_ Methinks Dutch is more of a throat disease than German. And for
           those who're clueless: Dutch <> DEutSch.
           \_ If you were really cluefull you'd call it Nederlandse, the proper
              name for the language. Nobody calls Nederlandse "dutch" except
              clueless english speakers.
              \_ "English", not "Engels", Nederlandse boy.  -John
              \_ Dear fucktard:  I guess the dutch guy i work with who lived
                 in the Netherlands for all of his 27 years until about two
                 weeks ago is a "clueless english speaker" then.  I had no
                 idea.  And I suppose that means the Swiss guy i work with
                 who spent five years in grad school at Delft and speaks
                 fluent Dutch is also a "clueless English Speaker."
                 Who knew?
              \_ I was born in Holland and speak Dutch fluently, and I have
                 never ever heard the language referred to as "Nederlandse"
                 by anyone in English. In Dutch it is called "Nederlands",
                 or you could say "De Nederlandse Taal" (the Dutch Language)
                 \_ Thank you, allow me to reward you the "annality prize of
                    the day" award.
           \_ Even more fun is learning Dutch and German.
              \_ Afrikaans
        \_ French R's are a bit throaty feeling to me. Deutsche throatiness
           levels are up to the speaker... you don't have to make the "ch"
           noise deep down and some even pronounce it like "sh". Hebrew
           seems throatier from what I hear.
           \_ According to linguists, the ugliest sounding languages are:
              German, Cantonese and Hebrew.
2004/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30863 Activity:insanely high
6/17    Dear John, I've decided to learn German. Why? The German population
        is the largest in Europe so maybe I can pick up more chicks. In
        addition, I get the added advantage of understanding the German
        spam and the History Channel. Now let me ask you this. What's the
        best way to learn German? I'd like to learn via audiotapes. Also,
        I'd like to listen to catchy German songs, like Das Ist Berlin,
        got recommendations? ok thx.
        \_ how would learning German be different from learning any other
           language?  the greater the exposure, preferebly in the country
           with total immersion, the faster the learning curve.
        \_ 99 Luftbaloons!
           \_ God you people are old.
              \_ Ich bin ein Berlinner!
              \_ You prefer the Britney Spears version?
           \_ The original version in English is better.
              \_ The original version is German. Nena later released a
                 version in English.
                 \_ You should hear it in the original Klingon
        \_ Warum fragen Sie John? Und auf dem motd, no less? That truly is
           anonymous cowardness. Anyway, unless you're some kind of language
           genius you won't really learn it unless you immerse yourself in it
           for a while. You can at least have fun getting to an intermediate
           level. It's pretty close to English really, the only thing is the
           genderized article/pronoun stuff.
           \_ And: THE VERB MUST BE SECOND
              \_ Dude, the verb must be last.  You haven't spoken german much.
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ Someone deleted my response, but you are showing your
                    ignorance here: "Warum fragen Sie John?". Where is the
                    verb (fragen)? The verb is almost always the second
                    construct in a German sentence.
                    \_ Mark Twain's take on german:
                         -- ilyas
                    \_ er, both of these guys are referring to the, forgot
                       what it's called but: I must go to school" becomes
                       "i must to school go" in German.
                       \_ "Must" is an auxiliary *verb* and it is *second*.
                          \_ must is a noun too
                             \_ Not in this context.
        \_ http://www.nextup.com/attnv.html
           The AT&T natural voices are really quite good: virtually everything
           that I read these days is piped through a text-to-speech program.
           I can only attest to the quality of the English voices, but they
           have voices for Spanish, French, German, and various English Accents
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Recreation/Sports] UID:30792 Activity:very high
6/14    Is anybody watching the Euro 2004 soccer stuff? Is that PPV only?
        \_ the people i know watching at home are doing pay per view.
           i havent checked but kezar pub may be showing. i am mostly
           interesting in watching english football holligans, however. --psb
           interested in watching english football holligans, however. --psb
           \_ Apparently this was the first one: http://csua.org/u/7r3
              \_ You may wish to read "Among The Thugs". Yobbos like:
                 Lager in pint glasses, Lager in 2l bottles, The Queen,
                 The Falkland Islands, ManU, Maggie Thatcher, Goals,
                 Rolex, War movies, Catholic Church [!?], Being abroad,
                 Expensive Sweaters [!?], Sausages, Lots of Money, Themselves.
                 Oi! --psb
           \_ Here you go: http://csua.org/u/7r5
2004/6/14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30780 Activity:insanely high
6/13    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040613/D836DRJ00.html
        So, after 50+ years of miltiary, economic and diplomatic warfare
        against extreme leftism, the Europeans are going to simply elect
        them to office.  If I cared about Europe, I'd be pissed off.  But I
        don't so I think it's funny.
        \_ Socialist governments elected are a far cry from what the Warsaw Pact
           countries were like.
        \_ Socialist governments elected are a far cry from what the Warsaw
           Pact countries were like.
        \_ And in other news, the Gipper's body is now spinning like a
        \_ "Overall, center-right parties won, taking between 247 and
           277 seats in the 732-member European Parliament, according
           to preliminary projections. The center-left group, which
           includes lawmakers from British Prime Minister Tony Blair's
           Labour Party and Schroeder's Social Democrats, finished
           second - with an expected 189 to 209 seats."
           So, what exactly are you talking about?  -tom
           \_ Way to ignore the important parts of the article where the
              Socialists are taking over the various governing bodies of the
              individual countries!  You score 1 twink point for bad trolling.
              No one cares about the EU Parliament.  They don't do anything.
           \_ I guess if any socialist anywhere has any power, the Cold War
              was lost, even if they were elected lawfully to a temporary
              position in an orderly democratic process.
              \_ You don't remember Chili, don't you?  they did democratically
                 elected a communist government.  we overthrew it.
                 \_ Chili is a stew, Chile is a country.
              \_ It's okay to say that you don't know.
              \_ Here we go... Do you know who else was lawfully elected to
                 power in the early-mid 20th century?  I won't say it.
                 \_ Awesome.  You Godwin'd an otherwise reasonable thread
                    in record time!  Way to go!
                 \_ You mean that damned Socialist Roosevelt?
           \_ Sweden has been electing Democratic Socialist governments
              to power for the last 50 years with no discernable ill
              effects, except for perhaps universal free health care.
              \_ Sweden?  You really think any large country can be run like
                 \_ you are right.  large countries should be run like India.
                    Small countries should be run like Singapore.
2004/6/8 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30659 Activity:nil
6/7     In Band of Brothers this crazy yank runs towards the Germans, runs
        behind the Germans, hides behind a building, then comes back without
        getting shot at all. What the heck was he doing and what did he
2004/6/6 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30634 Activity:very high
6/5     Related to the British auto mechanic post last week where Brits
        call their machines as "her"... is our country feminim or masculin?
        The Germans refer to their country as Vaterland, and the Russians
        refer to their country as Mother Russia. What is USA referred to as?
        \_ The only Chermans I've heard refer to their country as "Vaterland"
           had shaved heads and combat boots.  Never heard a Russian mention
           "Mother Russia" or Rodina (sp?) either.  What a stupid idea.  And
           the UK drivers I know wouldn't be caught dead (those rare times
           when they're sober) talking about "her".  Cheers, mate.  AFAIK
           the US just has Uncle Sam, but that doesn't count. -John
        \_ I don't think the U.S. tends to get assigned a gender as often,
           probably because English grammar doesn't require one to use
           gender as often.  What gender does China get, ta, ta or ta?
           \_ The US personification is male.
              \_ ...except in the lyrics to "God Bless America"
                 \_ He is talking about Uncle Sam you imbecile.
                    \_ In this case, you are the imbecile. Obviously Uncle Sam
                       is male and nobody needs to be told that. The point is
                       that there is more imagery than Uncle Sam. This is a
                       political cartoon figure. England has John Bull and
2004/5/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30426 Activity:high
5/25    Wanna learn a new language to pick up chicks in Europe. What should
        I learn? German (uhhh), French (too snobby), Italian (yes?),
        Spanish (si?)? Which language will get you the most women? ok thx.
        \_ Germany is horrible.  Germans are horrible.  Learn Spanish and
           French, the food's better and it's warmer and their tourists are
           far less obnoxious.  And you can get by in Italy with decent
           Spanish.  -John (really wish I spoke Spanish instead of German)
           \_ How do you konw that John? I found that even with my mediocre
              Spanish, I was able to more or less get by in Italy. It also
              make learning Italian a snap. -ausman
           \_ Somewhat related to the question.  It's hard to compete
              with Italian and Spanish guys.  They take the initiative,
              and they look girls straight in the eye when they talk to them.
              Especially the Italian guys.  German guys are meat.  So says
              a friend of mine who is into these things (picking up chicks
              in European bars, not Italian/Spanish/German guys).  How that
              affect your linguistic choice is your call.
              \_ Uh, that's what Americans do who want to get laid, also.  It's
                 not a big secret that women like the self confident guys.
        \_ What's wrong with American women?
           \_ Have you seen "Sex in the City?"  'nuff said.
                \_ ^Sex in the City^lila
                   \_ Who is Lila and why do you pick on her all the time?
        \_ Python
        \_ Germany has the largest population in Europe, so learn German.
                \_ how come, is it because of Hitler's initiative to create
                   lots of babies
                   \_ uhm yeah sure.
           \_ Spoken like a true sodan, quantity >>> quality!
           \_ Yeah, dude, german girls are either fat and dumb, or thin
              and very cold and evil.
              \_ Nobody who speaks German could be evil.
              \_ You're nuts.  German girls rock and they're easy and do
                 things American girls haven't even thought of.
        \_ Spaniards like to have a lot of sex, but you can get the most
           women by finding out which country best suits you... if you have
           dark skin, head north to Denmark/Sweden. If you have fair skin,
           head south to the Mediterranean. In either case, you can hope to
           get some tail on the "I'm exotic" route.
        \_ Go to Brazil if you just want to get laid a lot by beautiful
           women.  No need to learn anything.
           \_ AND fill up on STD's! w00t!
              \_ same story anywhere.  use a condom.  you shouldn't be
                 fucking random bar girls in any country without a condom.
                 if std's are your concern, find a church going virgin and
                 marry her.
        \_ Learn Spanish. It will still be usefull for you (and get you
           laid) when you come back to the US.
        \_ Have you considered Russian, Ukrainian, or Lithuanian?
           \_ Lonely Russian babes want to meet you!
              \_ http://www.russianbrides.com
2004/5/24-25 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30400 Activity:high
5/24    John the Native German Speaker, teach us German please. Teach us
        a few words, like "You look beautiful today" or "I like your dress."
        Heil John! Heil!
        \_ ?
        \_ Just learn some Yiddish.
2004/5/23 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30381 Activity:nil
5/23    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/movies/23canne.html
        hehehe ... the french sure like to annoy the Bush.
        \_ Wow, this makes Cannes, France, and Michel Moore all look kinda
           silly.  I guess that's not a big change though.
           \_ Wow, what the hell are you smoking?  It doesn't make them
              sound silly at all.  Stop reading your predudices into places
              that they don't exist.
              \_ Did you read the article?  Moore: "I didn't set out to
                 make a political movie..." right...
                 \_ the TRUTH is out there. bitch.
           \_ Wow, it really does! And how, exactly, does it do that? Just
              because a film festival recognizes a piece that doesn't agree
              with all the BS that Bush feeds us doesn't make it silly.
              Let me guess, you probably also think it's ok to lose
              life after valuable life in iraq since we're defending
              our freedom and way of life, right?
2004/5/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30032 Activity:high Edit_by:auto
5/5     Drudge scoops the big boys again:
        \_ keywords: Apache gunship helicoptor war video footage
        \_ That's because he posts 'scoops' without confirming them and often
           gets burned.  And he never posts retractions, of course.  Its a
           good thing for him that US libel law is so pathetically weak,
           otherwise he'd have to do actual research to back up his claims
           like them damn furrin papers do.  As for this latest claim, the
           video described sounds almost "too bad to be true" but meanwhile
           we shall see.  You may want to try some more reputable sources
           for your news, like one of the British papers.
           \_ 1) often?  prove it.  2) British?  Reputable?  You're better off
              with Drudge.  It's ridiculous to claim you'll get reputable news
           months ago:
              from "one of the British papers" unless you're some sort of
              freakish Anglophile who thinks anything British is automagically
              better than anything American.
        \_ It's an old video.  I downloaded and saw the whole thing (including
           the part where one of them is dumping an RPG in a field) several
           months ago.  ABC News was the first to run it on TV I believe.
           Part of the controversy was that they didn't show the part where
           they were dumping the RPG; only the part where they were getting
           blown to pieces.  You can go download the avi from the last URL I
           believe.  Finally, I did see this Drudge URL yesterday, but ignored
           it.  I notice it's not up on Drudge now, probably because someone
           pointed him to the snopes URL, and he realized it was "old news":
        \_ There were others along this line on CNN.  I was shocked at the
           lack of feet on it.  There was one with footsoldiers on patrol and
        \_ ob: You're an idiot.
           they come upon a wounded man on the road, sink a few more rounds
           into him just for kicks.  I thought I must have seen it out of
           context, but I don't think so.
           \_ I saw that too, but it was more like the guy was being put
              out of his misery, and the guy had been shooting at the soldiers.
2004/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:30014 Activity:high
5/5     Man, I just don't get today's Doonesbury.  Maybe it's because I
        don't drink. http://www.ucomics.com/doonesbury/index.phtml
        \_ Wine is not a "populist" drink.  Bush has always appeared as
           "one of the regular joe".  Regular Joes drink Busch beer.
              \_ Ha, ha.  You funny man.
                 \_ No really, move to the South.  You'll understand.
                    Try Lumberton, Mississippi.
        \_ Isn't wine associated with the french?
           \_ Are we at war with Eurasia or Eastasia now?
2004/5/3-4 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29959 Activity:very high
5/3     The new $50 bill:
        \_ Who uses $50s?  I thought $100s were the drug dealer cash of
           \_ $100s for the middle men on up, $20s for the street trash.
              \_ Middle men and higher use $20's becuase everyone gets paid by
                 the lower tier.
                 \_ Gotta change them into $100s though.  The US $100 has long
                    been a currency of choice for international crime and
                    terrorism of all kinds, because of its decent cash/weight
                    ratio.  I'd hate to take a million dollars worth of $20
                    over the border in a suitcase (well, several suitcases).
                    \_ People moving pounds of weed use $20's.  I'd say for MJ
                       that is top-tier.
                    \_ I've heard the 100 Euro note is taking over due to
                       inflation (internationally)
                       \_ There is also a 500 Euro note.
                       \_ What about the 500 Euro note?
                          Why does the AMC keep deleting this comment?
                          Jesus Fuck, you can't even make an innocuous comment
                          anymore without some asswipe taking offense.
                          \_ Innocuous comments get deleted by people who don't
                             use motdedit squishing changes, or people using
                             motdedit squishing changes of people without a
                             file lock.
                             \_ they also get deleted when the whole motd is
                                deleted, then restored by someone with a stale
                          \_ What will Warren Buffet say about this?
2004/5/1 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13514 Activity:high
5/1     10 new countries join the EU.  8 are former Soviet states.
        I know the public face is that the EU will turn all the European
        countries into a first world super power but I see it differently.
        I see it as merely staving off the inevitable collapse of the western
        European powers.  If the US economy looked like any of the major
        European economies, we'd already have voted all the incumbents from
        both parties out of office.  For example, Germany has about 10.5%
        unemployment right now.  We have about half that.  And Israel, which
        has always had a weak economy and especially so since the most recent
        war, has an unemployment rate just slightly worse than Germany at
        about 11%.  France has allowed approx. 6 million Arabs into their
        country of 25 million people yet has made no effort to integrate these
        people into society and continues to allow more.  Britain is following
        the same path.  Germany's retirement system is no longer sustainable.
        France is almost in the same position as Germany.  And these are the
        three strongest and best run countries in Europe.  It's all downhill
        from there.  I predict economic collapse leading to anarchy in most of
        Europe by 2025, at the latest, if current economic and social trends
        \_ Maybe they ll join up with Russia to form the Socialist Republics
           of Eurasia, and try to stave off the inevitable by whoring out
           natural resources for a few years.
        \_ Only three were former soviet states.
        \_ the only reason the us unemployment is so low is we artifically
           lower the numbers by not counting people who have been unemployed
           for over 6 months, nor do we count people who quit their jobs and
           can't find another one, or contracters who can't find contracts.
        \_ Between 20 and 40 % of children in France
           under 10 are Muslim.  The Islamicists breed like rabbits.
        \_ population of france is 59 million.  unemployment in
           germany is high because it is high in the former east
           germany.  you are a moron.
2004/4/23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13361 Activity:nil
4/23    Good thing the UN defines International morality!
2004/4/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:13304 Activity:nil
4/21    German Army Turns Into Gay Orgy:
        \_ Ok, the way it's written in the article makes it sound like a
           horrible idea.  In practice it will probably just be a bad
           \_ Come on, the Spartans didn't do too badly, although I'm sure
              it sucked to be a Messenian.
        \_ If this is true, it will destabilize the Middle East
           for years to come.
        \_ Was college a gay orgy for you?
           \_ No, but if it had been all male, it probably would have been.
              \_ That's what the Boy Scouts is about.
2004/4/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13220 Activity:very high
4/15    Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said a video recording of
        the killing showed that Quattrocchi was hooded when his kidnappers
        put a gun to his head. "When the murderers were pointing a pistol at
        him, this man tried to take off his hood and shouted: 'Now I'm going
        to show you how an Italian dies'. And they killed him." -CNN
        \_ Bring It On!
        \_ Tough guy.
        \_ ADRIAN!!!
        \_ Very brave, but he's still dead.
        \_ My hat is off to him.  He died like a real man.  I hope I would
           have the balls to do the same thing in the same situation.  -- ilyas
           \_ How does one die like a real woman? -chialea
                \_ With the same sort of courage.
                \_ Jeanne d'Arc.  Let's keep the feminist bickering to a
                   minimum in this thread, shall we?  It seems out of place.
                     -- ilyas
           \_ Is that really so brave?  Why not plead for your life in that
              kind of situation?  Many got out alive after being taken
              hostage.  Sounds like a hot head to me.
        \_ Hmm, maybe this explains why aljazeera decided not to show this one.
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13206 Activity:nil
4/14    Minister Franco Frattini told Italian state television that the
        nation's ambassador to Qatar viewed a portion of the videotaped
        execution and confirmed that the slain hostage was Fabrizio
        Quattrocchi, who was working in Iraq as a private security guard.
        ... Al-Jazeera said it did not broadcast the tape because it was too
        graphic. ... In a statement delivered with the tape, the
        hostage-takers blamed Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi for
        Quattrocchi's slaying ... and went on to say that the hostage-takers
        will kill one hostage at a time until all their demands are met. -CNN
        \_ Yes, it is Berlusconi's fault that this guy chose to go to Iraq as
           a private citizen working for a private company in a private
           capacity as a security guard for a private target.  The bastard!
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13201 Activity:high
4/14    "[I will] never submit to fight beneath that banner
        [the American flag] with a Negro by my side. Rather would
        I die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in
        the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved
        land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback
        to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
        1947 letter by Robert Byrd.
        \_ Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner and a fracophile.
        \_ Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner and a francophile.
            \_ Is that anything like a Francophile, 'cause them are fightin'
                words.  Also, T.J. who lived way before 1947, may have had
                slaves, but he never said anything as reprehensible as that.
                nor anything even close.  nor, i suspect, did he ever feel
                anything like it.
            \_ Those were the real French during their glory days.  After WWI
               and WWII all the best genes in the pool were killed off and
               now only the scum remains to keep breeding and leeching off the
               few French who actually work and produce anything.  This is all
               just noise anyway since in about 2 generations there will be
               more Arabs in France than pussified French and then it'll all
               be over for them for all time as a people, a culture and a
               country.  Look back in time upon France from before WWI to see
               a real country full of admirable people.  You can just fuck the
               useless worthless whiners that remain.
               \_ How about we kill you instead?  That would make me feel a
                  whole lot better.
                  \_ Who gives a flying fuck how *you* feel?  No, you can't.
                     You're a worthless valueless piece of shit.
                     \_ I'd say something, but I think John said it so much
                        better just below.
                        \_ Thank you.  Same goes for Italy. :)  -John
               \_ Is that an insult or a suggestion <img src=French hottie>?
                  \_ To whom?  I admire the old French.  The modern post WW2
                        \_ You're an idiot, and I doubt you'd ever be let
                           out of the special school for long enough to
                     French are pansies and doomed.
                        \_ You're just a second rate troll and an idiot, but
                           short-pantsed overweight American tourists with
                           too many people think like you.  I doubt you'd
                           be let out of the special school for long enough to
                           actually get near a stack of French toast.  I bet
                           you're the sort of annoying nasal whiny pigfucker

                           short-pantsed overweight American tourist with
                           his annoying nasal whiny pigfucker short-pantsed
                           chubby-kneed fanny-packed wife and pimply spoiled
                           brat kids who ruin my nice civilized weekends in
                           France.  Geeze Louise, stay home and shut up. -John
                           \_ wow.
               \_ Meanwhile the US was busy using it's status as the only major
                  industrial nation to survive WWII intact to keep the white
                  man in power and then repeating the same foolish French
                  imperial dreams in Vietnam on a bigger scale.
                  \_ Wow, confused race politics and a complete
                     misunderstanding of every element of the Vietnam war,
                     all in one convinent package!  Only $19.95!
                     \_ No!  It's FREE!  (Click this REMOVE link to be taken
                        off our opt-in list)
                     \_ The Vietnamese certainly saw the American War as
                        a war of national liberation. It is only a few
                        dumbass 'Mericans who bought the domino theory,
                        hold the line against communism crapola. The same
                        fools that buy the "Operation Iraqi Liberation is a
                        critical piece in The War Against Terror" I guess.
                  \_ This guy has been desperately trolling "the old french
                     who got themselves all killed are real men worthy of
                     worship" has finally succeeded in soliciting some
                     \_ Congrats, you just squished two people's changes.
                        Please use motdedit or aquire a lock before making
                        \_ I never force-write.  So try again.
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13070 Activity:nil
4/7     I'm looking for a new suit. If I happen to be in Italy, would it
        be cheaper to find an Italian suit there or is it not worth my
        \_ It would, depending on where you are.  Milan can be frighteningly
           expensive.  Also, you won't save a great deal on real big
           designer brands, but there are a lot of smaller tailors in side
           streets that can be worth your while.  Also, be aware of your
           type of build--if you're tall and slim, Italian suits may not be
           for you (they're pretty boxy.)  In Italy, I'd rather look out for
           \_ American suits are boxy.  Italian suits are more tapered and
              appropriate for slimmer people.
           nice leather goods (gloves, shoes, etc.)  If you specify where
           you're going, I might be able to give you some pointers.  -John
           \_ I'm not the OP, but I'm going to be in Florence and Rome.
              Anything in particular to look out for? (Shoes, maybe?)
              \_ Have you considered going to smaller cities like Cinqua Terra,
                 Sienna, Padova, etc? Rome is kinda like LA... it's a huge
                 city with lots of stuff going on and lots of touristy stuff
                 as well. Except that people walk in Rome... and while walking,
                 you might pass by some 2000 year old statues.

                 Florence is pretty famous for leather (shoes, belts, etc).
                 Try to avoid going in July. It's hot and filled with stupid
                 Germans and Americans. Before June 15 or after Sept 1 would
                 be good. Going in mid-August is not so bad, but everyone seems
                 to be on vacation during that time.
              \_ Shoes, gloves, whatnot.  In Rome all the expensive designer
                 stuff is around the Spanish Steps/Via Condotti and Via Veneto
                 (but there are a lot of great stores on side streets.)
                 Loads of cool little shops around Campo dei Fiori/Via del
                 Corso.  In Florence, anything away from the big museums
                 is decent shopping, and in both cities, do all the big
                 touristy things (Coliseum, Vatican museum, Uffizi, etc.) as
                 they're worthwhile.  Drop me a mail if interested and I can
                 look up some stuff--Rome is awesome.  If you're looking for
                 anything in particular, it's a PITA, so just knock around,
                 you will find a lot of nice things.  -John
              \_ A friend took my wife to http://csua.org/u/6tj outside of
                 Rome, where she found bountiful shopping.
                 \_ Can I take your wife, too?
                    \_ you probably can't afford her.
              \_ Lingerie. France and Italy have the best lingerie and
                 much of it never makes it into this country. The only
                 place I can find real silk stockings is in France, for
                 example. (I order by e-mail now.) My gf loves the fancy
                 lingerie and it is much cheaper than going to La Perla here.
2004/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13059 Activity:high
4/7     Is there a recent precedent for the use of "civilian contractors" /
        "mercenaries" in combat situations?  The recent murders/mutilations
        were terrible, but I'm wondering about the use of CC/Ms to protect
        government agencies in a warzone-- what sort of accountability does
        this Blackwater company have if one of their guards guns down a
        \_ These "civilian contractors" are ex-marines / navy-seals who is
           hired to protect food convoy.  They are not "civilians" (which
           implied they are defenceless and without arms).  These incident
           can be treated as US soldiers being killed.  Both USA and Britian
           are toying around with mercenaries because casualty of mercenaries
           are not as politically sensitive as regular soldiers.  Further
           when mercenaries commit war crime and all, government can just
           wave their hand and say "it ain't us."
        \_ Recent precedant?  I don't know.  Google "hessian mercenaries"
           \_ let's say post-1950, post-Geneva convention, etc.
        \_ My great-grandfather was a mercenary in WWI, and in a few
           american scuffles prior to that.
        \_ US or any country?
           \_ Doesn't matter.  Let me be more inflammatory: How do you feel
              about an Enron or Worldcom that employs well-trained paramilitary
              types and is contracted to work for the government?  Or:
              Imagine the Bush invading countryX using an entirely mercenary
              force, and blaming the outcome on a lack of "corporate synergy".
              \_ w00t!
        \_ How about the French Foreign Legion?
           \_ they are *NOT* mercenaries.  They are effectively French Arm
              and forces.
        \_ The United States used hundreds of mercenaries/contractors in
           Columbia in the late 90s. I know 20 of them died in 1998 alone.
        \_ The Pope is guarded by Swiss Guards which are mercenaries.  There
           hasn't been combat situations in recent history though.
2004/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:13044 Activity:nil
4/6     Ambush on U.S. forces and ensuing firefight in Sadr City Sunday
        leave 8 U.S. soldiers dead, 40+ wounded:  http://csua.org/u/6s6
        \_ You know, unlike Afghanistan, the terrain around there is a bit
           more conducive to cordoning off slums full of nutcase thugs and
           napalming the crap out of it... -John
           \_ Where is your European sense of civility?
              \_ John calls from Switzerland. They are not like the Europeans
                 you are probably thinking of. Ask John, for instance, when it
                 was Switzerland granted women the right to vote.
                 \_ Federal income tax for someone making $78k in .ch is 4%.
                    I am SO moving there at the first opportunity. -- ilyas
                    \_ yepthe Swiss rounded up jewish refuges, sent them to
                       nazi firing sqad waiting on border, and then pocketed
                       their bank accounts.
                       \_ Hey you should hear what the wartime Pope had to say
                          about the Jews.  Hope you aren't Catholic, or want
                          to move to Italy (let alone Germany).  And then there
                          is FDR who (half in jest, apparently) was suggesting
                          that all Germans be neutered after the war.  You
                          would also be surprised to learn that bombing of
                          civilians was first authorised by the Allies
                          (specifically Churchill).  It's obvious the only
                          fully guiltless party here is Soviet Russia!
                            -- ilyas
        \_ old news
           \_ If you read the link, you'll see interesting details of the
              battle that weren't available yesterday
              \_ "Bring it on!" -gwb
                 \_ You're a sick bastard.
                    \_ "Mission Accomplished!" - gwb
2004/4/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29901 Activity:nil
4/2     Brits, Japanese, Germans, and Aussies to be fingerprinted at
        Passport Control:
        http://csua.org/u/6qe (NYTimes by way of Google)
        Question:  Will my wife, who has a Green Card, be subjected to
        this, or is it just for temporary visitors?
        \_ I'll bet you my U.S. passport that if the Bush junta gets another
           4 years of power, this will include U.S. citizens, canadians, and
           everyone else within four years.  Right now the U.S. is very clearly
           on the road towards fascism, and if America falls no one will be
           safe anywhere.
2004/3/30 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12931 Activity:nil
3/30    France goes socialist!  Yes!  Less foreign competition for US goods
        and services now.
        \_ Wait until Wednesday before casting aspersions.
           \_ What happens on Wednesday?
              \_ They reconstitute the government.  The man charged with doing
                 so is unlikely to hold onto his position in the next
                 election, so he has an opportunity to do some radical
        \_ French product/services are competitive?
           \_ French wine.
           \_ Lots of big French companies doing well, like Vivendi.
           \_ Airbus.
           \_ Ocaml!
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12917 Activity:very high
3/29    Isn't the PRC fascist? Why do people still refer to it as communist?
        It fits perfectly with fascism but is not communist at all. Right?
        \_ american is fascist too.
                \_ Cool!  ChiCom troll is back!  I was afraid he'd been
                   sent to re-education, or promoted to peoples' regional
                   secretary for truth or something!  Hi, ChiCom Troll!  -John
                   \_ this is your problem.  Saying PRC is a fascist is not
                      considered as troll, but saying American is fascist
                      \_ Was I commenting on your content?  Your reading
                         comprehension is as poor as your grammar.  Doesn't
                         speak highly for ChiCom peoples' education.  Welcome
                         back, ChiCom troll!  -John
                         \_ You're being silly.  He is not the real chicom
                            troll.  Just arrived at work, eh?
                            \_ ChiCom troll is not person, it attitude.
                               Back to highschool, stupid american.  -John
                               \_ nah, he's the best friend you day dream
                                  about everyday at work.
                                  \_ Yermom's not a day dream, and she's not
                                     my best friend, she's on my lap.
                                     \_ masterbating at work again, eh?
                               \_ nah, he's your imaginary best friend
                                  you day dream about at work.
           \_ Along with Republicanism...
        \_ no.
        \_ Communism is just one insidious type of fascism.
           \_ Not really. It's just that people choose to keep calling
              something communism that isn't communism.
                \- helo it is an interesting question whether communism and
                   fascism, call them totalitarian ideologies, are essentially
                   identical due to structural factors or the "substance
                   of the ideology" rather than the structure [say class vs
                   nation/ethnic focus] plays the dominant role in defining
                   its character. you may wish to read "Revolutionary Change"
                   written by Chamlers Johnson before he went insane or this
                   book by R. Paxton: http://csua.org/u/6nx ok tnx. --psb
                   \_ Communism is not a totalitarian ideology per se, it is
                      an economic system which can only be achieved by
                      compulsion.  (One wonders sometimes if this is true, to
                      some extent, of any civilized economic system which
                      relies on abstractions such as property).  Fascism is a
                      more complicated concept, but I don't believe it needs to
                      be necessarily totalitarian either.  Most people who
                      accuse people or states of fascism these days (e.g. "Bush
                      is fascist!") have no idea what the word means.  I don't
                      believe fascism and communism have anything in common,
                      aside from the fact that they lend 'color' or 'charge',
                      if you like, to government.  Twentieth century made a
                      convincing case that governments should remain as
                      colorless as possible. -- ilyas
                      \- per se, communism isnt communism per se. --psb
                         \_ That's nice, Partha. -- ilyas
                            \- not as good as: "The women at fandom cons are
                               bi and large, by and large." --psb
                      \_ What does it mean? that's my real question. I did do
                         some reading on it now and I see why the PRC doesn't
                         really fit that term. But, I can also see how aspects
                         associated with fascism can be used by both PRC
                         and USA (appeals to nationalism, fearmongering,
                         scapegoating, militarism/patriotism, propaganda).
                         But I think authoritarianism is intrinsic to fascism.
                         The only communism we've seen is the Stalinist brand
                         of totalitarianism. Modern China with its economic
                         ventures seems to have abandoned communism.
                         \_ yes, China have abandoned communism since 1985,
                            *YEARS* before Berlin Wall came down.
                            \_ nonsense.  the government still controls the
                               entire economy.  just because you're now allowed
                               to own an apple cart or a small factory that
                               makes a few widgets doesn't mean they've
                                \_ ussr?  ussr is no more.  otoh, russia under
                                   putin has wisely decided to follow in
                                   china's path of capitalism under strong
                                   authoritarian rule, reversing russia's failed
                                   experiment with democracy.  this was also
                                   the proven path followed by many US allies
                                   such as japan, s.korea, taiwan, singapore.
                                   and the world is voting with their hard
                                   earned money pouring them into russia and
                                   china.  check out stock symbol mbt or vip,
                                   i am buying a beemer using earnings from
                                   those stocks.  the only people who can
                                   attain democracy and capitalism in the
                                   reverse order are the indians, and even
                                   then, it's under strong nationalistic
                                   leadership of the BJP party.
                            *YEARS* before Berlin Wall came down.
                               suddenly turned into a capitalist society.  they
                               have only just caught up to where stalin's
                               ussr was more than 50 years ago.
                         \_ Actually I take it back.  Classic, Mussolini-style
                            fascism cannot help but be totalitarian in human
                            societies. -- ilyas
                                      \-YMWTGF(ant, spider, bee, bacon) --psb
                            \_ human societies?
                               \_ The Bugs are facist by nature.
                                      \-YMWTGF(ant, spider, bee, bacon) --psb
                                        \_ bugs aren't totalitarian.
                                  \_ Not necessarily bugs.  Humans are just not
                                     collectivist enough, they like small packs.
                                     An interesting take on how a collectivist
                                     human society would come about, see
                   book by R. Paxton: http://csua.org/u/6nx ok tnx. --psb
                                     collectivist enough, they like small packs.
                                       -- ilyas
                                     Herbert's "Hellstrom's Hive" (yes, same
                                     Herbert). -- ilyas
                                     \_ if humans were collectivist like bugs
                                        we'd be doing about as well which is
                                        to say not very well at all overall.
                                         \- sort of like france :-) --psb
                   \_ Why nobody ever complains that psb write incoherent
                      English sentences?
                      \_ because we know he could form coherent sentences
                         if he wanted to. otoh, we can and do complain that
                         he's a lazy bastard.
        \_ nah, it's better described as authoritarian planned-economy
                 \- sort of like france :-) --psb
                    \_ "A specter is haunting Europe..." -- ilyas
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12908 Activity:nil
3/29    Socialists take over France too.
2004/3/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12799 Activity:kinda low
3/22    The French Connection Kenneth Timmerman reports on
        deep and tight Chirac-Saddam ties.
        \_ Jew
        \_ How about the deep Bush/Laden ties?
           \_ And how about _our_ continued involvement with Hussein
              after the "300,000 of his own people" shit?
2004/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12717 Activity:nil
3/17    France: Ach, that Stoopid Bush.  We should be nice to terrorists!
                BOOM! Whoops.
        \_ Look, it's not that the french wants to be nice to terrorists or
           even muslims.  They just want to be different from the Americans.
           It's an inferiority cplx.
        \_ Don't listen to what the French say, look at what they do.  They
           are right there on the front line with us on the war on terror.
           It's easy for the French media and the average citizen to spout
           off whatever but it's the government that sets policy and it is
           a very pro-American policy no matter what they say in public to
           appease their media.  I've been very pleased with the French
           response to terrorism and how closely they've worked with us.
           \_ everyone supports fighting terrorism, just not invading Iraq,
              which does not help in fight terrorism.
              \_ Way to dodge that red herring!
              \_ Uhm, ok, and that has exactly what to do with the price of tea
                 in China?  Or France?  Or anything else I said?
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12713 Activity:nil
3/17    http://csua.org/u/6gv
        Government officials insist that they never misled the public, and
        that they released in a timely manner all the information and
        evidence they had gathered. "We told the truth at all times to the
        Spanish people," Acebes said on Monday.  In retrospect, however,
        there were signs that the government was at least selective in
        releasing information about possible culprits. -Washington Post
        \_   http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo
        \_ Consider, though, that there's never been a significant incident
           involving islamists in Spain, they have a long history of ETA
           bombings, and the March 11 attacks bore a lot of ETA hallmarks.)
           Had ETA been responsible, the PP's stance both on domestic
           security and its Iraq policy would have been boosted, whereas
           an attack by islamists would have underlined points made by the
           socialists--it's imaginable that this may have influenced the
           finger pointing, but it doesn't change what seemed pretty obvious
           at first glance.  As for whether the socialists' victory is
           "knuckling under" to terrorists, that's another discussion.  -John
           \_ I think you are being too generous here, John. The morning of
              the attacks, I heard someone from ETA's Sinn Fein say that
              they didn't do it -- he pointed out that ETA always provides
              a warning before they set off a bomb, and there was none
              in this case. And all the terrorism experts I heard said that
              it may have been ETA, but the MO was quite different from
              their past. Plus, the PP persisted in insisting that it was
              ETA for several days, despite mounting evidence to the
                \_ Point taken.  Interesting you use the Sinn Fein analogy--
                   like the IRA, Sinn Fein is pretty fragmented since Spain
                   & France started working together to smash them.  -John
              \_ ETA MO is to set off a bomb and then see what the PR looks
                 like and disclaim responsibility if the PR is negative.  The
                 ETA was stopped from setting off a train bomb just like this
                 last year and last month was busted carting around a large
                 amount of explosives.  It was also reported that the
                 explosives used in Madrid are the same ETA has used a lot in
                 the past.  So fingering the ETA was a good call at the time.
                 Oh yeah, the ETA is also reported to have a new group of
                 younger members moving into higher ranks that are much more
                 aggressive than the original bunch.  It made sense and was
                 believable.  Obviously finding al qaeda tapes, AQ agents and
                 then a posting on an AQ web site last year saying that they
                 could put the socialists in power if they timed it right is
                 good evidence it wasn't the ETA but none of that was known
                 that first day or so.
                 \_ It was the omission of including AQ as suspects that ticked
                    everyone off. There wasn't enough information at the time
                    to make the call and laying blame the ETA without proof
                    made it look politically expedient.
                    \_ ETA was a good first guess.  It was only 48 hours
                       between the bombs and the polls opening.  I think your
                       depiction is really harsh.
                       \_ You should really read the entire article.
                          Then come back and post what you think. -op
        \_ Spain gave in to threats and voted to "appease terrorists" in the
           election Sunday that turned out a top U.S. ally in the
           counterterror war, the top Republican in Congress said Wednesday.
           ... "Here's a country who stood against terrorism and had a huge
           terrorist act within their country and they chose to change their
           government and to in a sense appease terrorists," Hastert said. -AP
           \_ And if the US had gotten more than Spain, Poland, and the UK to
              help police Iraq, the loss would be less apparent.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29872 Activity:nil
3/16    Whee!  Everyone hates us and the Morrocans and Jordanians all want
        to blow us up:
        \_ Bring it on!
        \_ we should tactical nuke the pakistan/aghan border
           \_ There would be much time, and little to do.  But...ah...with
              ze proper breeding techniques, and a ratio of zay...ten females
              to each male...I would guess zat zey could zen work their way
              back to ze present gross national product within, zay, twenty
2004/3/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12667 Activity:nil
3/15    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-France-Bin-Laden.html
        What are French troops doing in Afghanistan?  We should just send
        them home.  For all we know, they may be helping Bin Laden.
        \_ There are no French troops in Afghanistan.  They are opposed to
           BushCo and his evil regime.
2004/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12641 Activity:low
3/12    Might be a nice gesture to drop some flowers at the Spanish
        consulate or something.  They were pretty decent 2 1/2 years
        ago.  -John
        \_ never knew the motd was so kind.
           what was the motd like on 9/11/2001?
           \_ IIRC, motd was shut down for several days because of excessive
              kindness.  I believe the unofficial part was made less publicly
              accessible due to kindness poisoning also.
              \_ I believe it was given a cooling off period because a few
                 jackasses were talking about taking revenge on any "towelhead"
                 they saw.
                 \_ It was shut down because paolo's (he of the every-3-minute
                    MOTD deletion) girlfriend complained.  -tom
                    \_ And she was damned right to do so.  Did you read some of
                       the posts she included in her email?  It was more than
                       casual race baiting; people were talking about guns.  If
                       nothing else, that sort of thing would have gotten the
                       csua shut down if it had been made public.
                       \_ You can't shut down an organization because it
                          provides a forum for wackos.  Berkeley won't get
                          shut down because of all the nutjobs on Sproul.
                          In fact, you put yourself at more risk by attempting
                          to control a forum, because then you implicitly
                          are approving everything that shows up in it.  -tom
                          \_ I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
                 \_ Kind of OT, but what kind of relegion is Sihkism?  All I
                    know is they don't cut their hair, they wear a turban and
                    carry a ceremonial knife.
        \_ what do you mean pretty decent 2 1/2 years ago?
                \_ Meaning that after 9/11 a whole lot of people in Spain
                   and other Euro countries were pretty consoling and tried
                   to make whatever symbolic gestures they could.  Not
                   a big deal practically speaking, I guess, but I think it
                   meant a lot to them.  Dunno, you decide.  -John
        \_ Have you ever considered putting flowers in front of the Israeli
                \_ Because that's not terrorism, it's a war.
                   (and "war on terrorism" doesn't count)
                   \_ oh, so you think it's ok if Israeli rolls in the tanks
                      and just flattens all the arab areas?  After all it's
                      war and you've just said that killing civilians is ok.
                        \_ good attempt at a troll.
        \_ Why does the Basque people want independence from Spain?
           \_ The usual. They feel they are oppressed and ignored by the
              Spanish political and social support system.
              \_ Ask not what you can do for your country but what your country
                 can do for you!
           \_ Why did the Joos want their own country?
2004/3/11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29864 Activity:nil
3/11    Bombing in Spain:
2004/3/9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12578 Activity:low
3/8     Would someone be willing to take delivery of a handgun for me in
        the Bay Area in the next 2 months?  It's a gift from a friend in
        Oregon, which I would like to take over to Switzerland the next
        time I'm in the US (May-ish.)  He can't meet me in person.  I can
        supply any needed papers.  -John
        \_ Which handgun?  (I am not in BA, or I d take it) -- ilyas
        \_ Can you supply a good lawyer, too?
        \_ can i use it on Highway 580?
        \_ Just sort of curious, John, why're you asking in the motd rather
           than approaching some friends you consider trustworthy directly?
        \_ Assuming you go through with this, it is illegal and considered
           a federal crime. To do this right, your friend needs to transfer
           ownership using someone with a FFL. Any reputable gun store will
           do this, for a small fee, and even hold it in storage, for another
           small fee. Transferring the gun out of country is another whole
           mess of paperwork.
           \_ You have to forgive John.  Living in oppressed Europe for so long,
              he must have forgotten how easy it is to commit a federal crime
              here in the Land of the Free.  -- ilyas
              \_ Was he thinking of wearing a head scarf, too?
              \_ In Switzerland, men are REQUIRED to keep an arsenal in their
                 home as they are citizen military reservists, and could be
                 called up in time of need.
                 \_ Because so many Italians and Germans will be invading for
                    the chocolate and watches?  Actually, it won't be the
                    Germans.  They already bought their way in with blood
              \_ As if Europe is a haven of freedom and goodness.  Whatever.
                 \_ I think you are missing the point.
                    \_ I don't think there was a meaningful point to begin with.
                    \_ What point?  It was standard mindless America bashing.
2004/3/4 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:29939 Activity:nil 80%like:12517
4/3     http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=9&u=/nm/20040304/od_nm/life_britain_surgery_dc
        The british people ARE ugly!!!
2004/3/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12517 Activity:nil 80%like:29939
4/3     http://snipurl.com/4vze [yahoo news]
        The british people ARE ugly!!!
        \_ You need to check out British pr0n.  There are some *really* hot
           chicks over there.
           \_ Photoshop is a wonderful thing...
              \_ I've been a British pr0n fan long before Photoshop existed.
           \_ Well there's Liz Hurley and, uh...
              \_ He's probably thinking of http://www.page3.com
                 Not that I can see how these photoshopped hos look any
                 better than our photoshopped hos...maybe he's got an
                 accent fetish?
                 \_ And HOW!
        \_ Brazillians are the most plastic surgeried people in the world.
           Practical observation seems to indicate there is little
           negative correlation between the attractiveness of a people
           and the prevalence of plastic surgery.
           \_ I thought it's the Koreans?
              \_ Not according to the Brazillians.  Apparently it's a title
                 many are eager to claim.
2004/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12427 Activity:low
2/26    Living man a fugitive suspect in sucessful suicide bombing attack.
        Huh what?
        "In a report earlier this month, Agence France-Presse said a Taliban
        source had identified Abdullah Khadr as the attacker who on Jan. 27
        jumped on Murphy's jeep and blew himself up. He is the 22-year-old son
        of Ahmed Said Khadr."
        \_ It's on cbc.ca. Go post there if you care.
           \_ Are you deranged?
2004/2/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:12285 Activity:kinda low
2/17    The weird weather in Europe might not be global warming:
        \_ Of course it might not be. It might be caused by alien mutants.
           Trust no one.
        \_ God damn it!  I'm so sick of hearing about global warming!  What
           happened to the perpetual winter I was promised when I was a kid?
           Where is my never-melting snowman?!
           \_ The goddam Russkies rolled over on us.
2004/2/11 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29796 Activity:very high
2/10    I'm beginning to think mandatory military service should be instituted
        in the USA, say for 2 years after high school. It would help all these
        kids to grow up, learn to be away from home and stop being pansies.
        They'd be older and more mature going into college, and maybe have a
        better sense of direction and perspective in life. It would force rich
        kids to serve alongside poor kids and make people care more about US
        policy and think about what it means to live here.
        \_ Back in MY day, sonny, we walked six miles uphill through the snow
           to do our military service! [again, restored]
           \_ Uphill both ways?
        \_ This isn't Israel or Singapore where land is scarce and border
           security requires every able body to participate in the armed
           forces. Having such a large non-volunteer force would have no
           practical value to the security of this country
           \_ Ok 2 years is too much, I was just reading how Euro countries do
              it. 9 mo. would still be good, plus there is the possibility of
              alternate service in something like Peace Corps. There is all
              kinds of stuff they could do. There are lots of non-combat roles
              in all the military branches too.
              \- would you make females and homosexuals serve? --psb
2004/2/5 [Science, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12113 Activity:nil
2/5     The "have-a-baby" troll below piqued my curiosity: which countries
        currently have the most advanced fertility treatment?  Are they also
        leaders in cloning technology?
        \_ By the way, thank you for correctly spelling "piqued".  We do
           appreciate it.
           \_ Its all about propper grammer, and, spelling.
        \_ western ones.  yes.
        \_ I think Italy especially has loose laws about cloning/fertilization
           \_ Mmmmm, loose Italian women...Mmmmm, Monica Bellucci...mmm....
           \_ Not Italy. Italy is very Catholic about these things. I think
              Korea is the most liberal about fertility tech.
              \_ Yeah, shit, I mean, check out those mass Moonie weddings.
2004/1/21 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11864 Activity:nil
1/21    Here's some funny shit.  Various peacenik lawyers seek revenge on
        Tony Blair for supporting the US in Iraq.
        \_ see what the UK gets for trying to remain international and not
           giving itself whole-heartedly to Bush's unilateral campaign?
           "The U.S. cannot be tried before the court because it refuses to
            sign up to it. The UK did."
           \_ What does it mean to be "international", exactly?  Striving to
              surrender your nation to others who don't have your interests
              at heart?  Good plan.  Don't run a country.
        \_ learn to shorten your urls: http://csua.org/u/5mw
           \_ Shortening urls is great, as long as the poster specifies
              what they're sending you to.  This simple courtesy is rare,
           \_ I prefer the real raw deal.  I do not like being sent to unsafe
              links.  I'm willing to cut n paste.
2004/1/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11652 Activity:nil
1/2     The US planned an invasion of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia
        back in 1973 to seize their oil fields. Good thing
        we are above that sort of thing now:
        \_ Dur, this is at the end:
           "It is made clear that the invasion would probably only be
           contemplated if the situation in the region deteriorated to such
           an extent that the oil embargo went on for a long time, threatening
           western economies."
        \_ Oh the horror.. Why that is the last straw-- I hate the U.S. so much
           I want to learn German and move to Germany get taxed >50%!
           \_ Get a grip man, it was 30 years ago!
           \_ what is wrong with getting taxed 50% by a country that actually
              does something useful with that money?
              \_ Heh.  I see you neither lived, nor visited Germany, nor have
                 any friends who live there.
        \_ under Nixon, what a surprise.
2003/12/31 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29739 Activity:high
12/31   So I understand that we are supposed to call French Fries and
        French Toast, Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast now, but what
        about French Kissing? Should I call it "Freedom Kissing" now?
        How about French Bread or French Poodles? Is it now Freedom
        Bread and Freedom Poodles? The last one sounds kind of
        funny to me.
        \_ And don't forget French onion soup, French dip and French coffee to
           complete a five-course French cuisine.
        \_ The "french" in french fries has nothing to do with France and
           shouldn't even be capitalized.  Is Quayle back in DC?
2003/12/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11549 Activity:nil
12/20   Sorry if this is old, but I nearly pissed myself laughing:
        ~john/wine.txt  -John
        \_ http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~tom/games.html
        \_ Speaking of Walmart, I just spoke with a friend from the UK, and
           he mentioned that Walmart is now decimating the retail grocery
           and department store chains in England.  Walmart purchased
           the chain store ASDA, and has found a loophole in British zoning
           law which allows them to build mezzanine levels into ASDA stores
           to expand into the markets of other surrounding businesses.
                \_ Germany too.  Of course then, most German supermarkets
                   currently suck and could use a kick in the ass.  -John
           \_ what is wrong with Walmart?  it's not even close to being a
              microsoft in the retail industry.
              \_ ???? Hello?
                \_ Don't be fooled by the rhetoric. Walmart's total
                   control is only 3-4% of retail sales in America. That's
                   a far cry from MS's 98% of all desktops. Of the two, MS
                   is still by far the more perilous monopoly.
                   \_ having said that, I would say thi is the flaw of
                      our current anti-trust law.  Our current antitrust
                      law looks over total market share, ignoring the
                      phenomena of regional monopoly.  Thus, Walmart and
                      the baby Bells in telecom welds a lot more power,
                      essentially stifle any competition in a particular
                      geographical area, than the overall market share
2003/12/15-16 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11461 Activity:kinda low
12/15   hey ilyas: http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/titles/ringeck/ringeck.htm
        (tobler interprets the Ringeck Verses)
        \_ right. just in case you just finished Quicksilver and felt it
           wasn't nerdy enough.
           \_ this book is not supposed to be fiction.  It's a system of
              movements for the art of applied geometry.
              \_ Agrippa is better for that.
                 \_ Agrippa wasn't thinking of a longsword, he was thinking
                    of rapier.
                    \_ What about Silver?
                       \_ Well, he had a bit of a bias vs. scherma.
                 \_ http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/agrippa/63.jpg ?
                    \_ Agrippa was a mathematician.  Basically he came up
                       with a system of movements that let the scholar
                       form the hypotenuse with his arm and blade to the
                       triangle created by the opponents arm, blade, angle
                       and point.  Alot of the spanish style, the so called
                       "magic circle" is all appications of geometry of chords
                       tangents, etc, since they didn't have the silly
                       limitations of strip fencing. - pst
           \_ For the record I don't like Stephenson.  I find most of his
              books (after Snowcrash) long and boring.  Also the above poster
              is right, this isn't fiction, it's a martial art manual.
                -- ilyas
              books (after Snowcrash) long and boring. -- ilyas
        \_ Neat!  Thanks, motd Santa! -- ilyas
           \_ ya might also wanna ask him for a gorget.  Preferably steel
              I took a schlager in the throat the other week and even thru
        \_ Neat!  Thanks, motd Santa! -- ilyas
              a steel one it still hurt and stunned. - pst
           \_ Motd santa pls bring me:
           \_ If you like that, tell us about this:
2003/12/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11448 Activity:nil
12/13   http://www.globulos.com has serious fault tolerant/scalabitily issues.
        Clearly it's written by French artsie programmers who make cute
        looking GUIs but have very little understanding of scalability.
        \_ then don't play it.
           \_ When I tried to play I couldn't...  Not good for popularity.
        \_ what problems were you having? the only problem i noticed was
          finding an empty game, so i usually just create my own. play
          viral pursuit if you want to stick to 1 player games that dont have
          scalability issues.
        \_ What do you expect, they are French after all...
           \_ Aesthetic goes before functionality. You dumb Americans
              just don't get it.
              \_ grrrrrrr. don't even get me started.  fucking frogs.
              \_ So how do you explain ocaml?  It's french.  It's also
                 ugly and functional (pun intended).  -- ilyas
                 \_ and there are American products that are beutiful
                    and useless.  so what?   it's a trend to which
                    there are exceptions, but in my experience french
                    people will put form over function to a degree
                    that is quite simply unprofessional for a scientist
                    or engineer.
                    \_ Your experience?  How many french products do you
                       actually use?  -- ilyas
2003/12/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11421 Activity:high
12/11   Are the Swiss Guards at the Vatican related to the military in
        Switzerland in any way?
        \_ STFW:
           (Read: sort of. They are required to have basic military training
           in the Swiss army, but are a separate group.)
        \_ Yes.  They have to have gone through military training, and are
           dispensed from the normal reserve duty (and have to be Catholics.)
           We think they're all repressed homosexuals.  -John
           \_ That would be a convenient explanation for the outfits.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11420 Activity:nil
12/11   Getting back to the language question, I've decided to fake British
        accent. It's much easier to learn than German and I can get around
        quite easily without being treated like a damn Yankee.
        \_ Pretend to be Canadian, it's easier.
           \_ Eh.
        \_ Brit: "You're English?  Brilliant!  What part?
           You: "Um.  What part are YOU from?"
           \_ Tally-ho! Jolly good show! I'm from the northern part of
              Lexington and I graduated from Cambridge University
               \_ Oh, good-- I mean, brilliant, I'm from far away from there--
                  Francisco... ingham... shire... upon Berkeley... wood.
        \_ Or you can pretend your Scottish- Angus McCloud from North
           \_ No foolin'!  I'm from North Kilttown!
        \_ Just sew a Maple Leaf on your backpack and say you're from
           Vancouver.  Lots of wiggle room there.
           \_ brilliant!  Do they talk like us there?
              \_ Yeah, mostly.  Just remember to say "zed" instead of
                 "z" and don't over-do the "eh" thing.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11417 Activity:nil
12/11   What's the best way to pick up a British accent besides watching
        Monthy Python and the Flying Circus?
        \_ There's a rare brain disorder...
        \_ you might first want to decide WHICH british acent you want to pick
           up, as there's several different ones.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11413 Activity:nil
12/11   To whoever was asking me about languages, you could probably get
        around a lot of Switzerland with French alone, but to be honest
        you're better off using English all over Europe, as long as you try
        to not come across as a brash American tourist (just keep your
        voice down, you'll be surprised.)  -John
        \_ and for fuck's sake, leave that 10-gallon hat at home!
           \_ and your six shooters.
        \_ while true, the french, in particular, definitely appreciate
           when americans make an effort to speak french...no matter
           how lousy their accent/grammar is. try it and you'll see.
           \_ And despite the hate that gets thrown around on here, and
              contrary to cliche, most French people that I have met like
              Americans.  The media just tells you about the negative
        \_ How about faking a British accent and put up an attitude as if
           you're better than those bloody Yankees? Maybe you'll get more
        \_ I found that lots of Italians don't speak English, but I was
           able to get by with my half-assed Spanish spoken with an
           Italian accent. -ausman
        \_ Just don't wear shorts, flip flops and a Hawaiian Shirt. Be
           culturally appropriate and no one will mistake you for an
           Ugly American.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11409 Activity:nil
12/10   Re: german vs french thread yesterday.  I decided to take german.
        I figure I'll spend most of my time in the netherlands and switzerland.
        \_ Das! You will meet cute Bavarians girls who will yodel while you
           give her a lot of pleasure. Good choice.
        \_ German, unlike French or English, has the nice property that most
           words sound like they are spelled.
           \_ I doent no wot yur toking abowt!
              \_ Ai doent no eida.
2003/12/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11376 Activity:nil
12/9    Read this you beatniks and open your eyes:
        \_ Pride goeth before a fall.
           \_ Pride goeth before destruction,
              and an haughty spirit before a fall. Prov 16:18
              \_ I hope you are all right. That way we can have a "Mad Max"
                 world and I can use my guns. Seriously.
2003/12/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11370 Activity:very high
12/9    What language (other than English) is more widely used in western
        Europe?  I'm trying to decide to learn either German or French.
        And another related question for anyone who has been to the
        Netherlands:  it seems like a large part of the Dutch population
        speaks German.  Why is that?  Thanks.
        \_ Learn French. You can get more chicks with it.
        \_ Learn French.  German is a horrid language.  It's not widely
           spoken and you will hate it.  Trust me, I speak both.  Dutch is
           sort of cute, but you don't get much mileage out of it.  -John
           \_ Then again, this is coming from a guy who didn't think
                30 millions lives of Chinese is not worth nearly as much as
                3 million Jews.  so, be aware
                \_ I think you have a double negative problem there.  Not to
                   mention your head stuck way up your ass.
           \_ John, can I get around switzerland or germany/austria with
              french?  Most people in switzerland speaks german I think.
              I know english is the de-factor second language in the world.
                                    \_ de facto
              I'm trying to avoid speaking english when I go to europe.
              I don't want to be the big ugly american.
              \_ don't worry, with broken english like that, you wouldn't
                 pass for american.
                 \_ http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame31.html
   "Grammarian usually has little to contribute to a discussion and
   possesses few effective weapons. To compensate, he will point out
   minor errors in spelling and grammar. Because of Grammarian's obvious
   weakness most Warriors ignore him."
                    You need to troll harder, grammarian.  I was hoping you
                    would work your way up the troll ladder.  But you're stuck.
                \_ hey, we found partha:
           spoken and you will hate it.  Trust me, I speak both.  -John
        \_ 'Dutch' is a corruption of 'Deutsch.'  Think about it.
        \_ IMHO, it all depends on what you want to do with the language.
           French is more widely spoken in Western Europe, some part of Africa
           and even in Asia too. (Vietnam comes to mind) If you're learning it
           for fun, AND if you've done some French in high school/college, go
           with French. German is an easier language to learn in terms of
           pronounciation (just watch our governator for practice :)) and
           a few words are similar to English. Good for reading techie manuals
           and an important language in the medical field. It might even get
           you a job at Siemens, BMW, DT, etc. since they're actively
           recruiting German-English speakers. If you're into history, think
           Latin. Not as much fun but it's pretty useful.
           \_ HEIL!!!!! LONG LIVE DIE FUHRER!
           Latin. Not as much fun but it's pretty useful.
              \_ Der.  Der Fuhrer, not Die Fuhrer.

           Or you may want to think about Spanish. Yes I know it's "boring"
           but given the usefulness in California compared to other European
           languages (i.e. you're more likely to meet someone to speak
           Spanish with in CA than any other languages), it may be good, plus
           you've most likely received some basic Spanish in High School.
           you've most likely received some basic Spanish in High School.
           \_ spanish is boring and french isn't?  you're a nut.

           Dutch people tend to be proficient in their second languages because
           they are aware that not many people outside Holland speaks Dutch
           (except for maybe Namibia, South Africa, etc.) so rather than
           y(except for maybe Namibia, South Africa, etc.) so
           rather than taking the stance of the stereotypical snotty French,
           they rely on German, English or French. (German comes to mind since
           taking the stance of the stereotypical snotty French, they rely on
           German, English or French. (German comes to mind since it's
                                                 \_ he's over there!
           bordering east of Holland; a lot of people from the Eastern
           \_ Even the word 'Dutch' is a bastardized german word for 'German'.
              See above.
              \_ The Dutch have no love for the Germans, though, and the
                 languages are about as similar as Spanish and Italian or
                 \_ I don't think the Germans are particularly popular in
           it's bordering east of Holland; a lot of people from the Eastern
           part of Holland cross the Germany border to go shopping. This info
           comes from a good friend who lives in Groningen (Holland). Hope this
           part of Holland cross the Germany border to go shopping. This info
           helps, sorry it's long-winded.
           comes from a good friend who lives in Groningen (Holland). Hope this
           helps, sorry it's long-winded.
        \_ About Dutch/German: the languages have a lot of similarities, more so
           than French/Dutch. I know a little German and many Dutch words look
                                                 \_ he's over there!
           like bastardized German.
           \_ Even the word 'Dutch' is a bastardized german word for 'German'.
              See above.
              \_ The Dutch have no love for the Germans, though, and the
                 languages are about as similar as Spanish and Italian or
                 \_ I don't think the Germans are particularly popular in
2003/12/4 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11318 Activity:high
12/4    Maine teacher sues over school board curriculum that prevents teaching
        about non-Christian civilizations and religions, e.g. ancient Greece:
        \_ Maine SAD1's Superintendent speaks out on the charges:
           To wit, 7th and 8th grade curriculum focuses on European and
           US History, while World History is relegated to 9th grade.  Cole
           teaches middle school.  Supe claims that Cole is welcome to
           broach non-Christian topics so long as they apply to topics set
           aside for each grade.
           \_ Thanks for the response.  I wouldn't say this settles it, though.
              Time will tell but if the charges are as baseless as the
              superintendent seems to believe, the lawsuit will be dismissed
              out of hand.  For the teacher to go through so much trouble,
              there may very well be something going on here that we don't
              yet know about.  It is true that more and more school boards
              across the country are controlled by fundamentalist groups, and
              are using their position to dictate curriculum.
              \_ what will be ironic and sad is if the conservative agendas
                 of school choice and religion in school are both
                 of school choice and religion in the school are both
                 idiot kids who were put in schools with a medieval
                 curriculum by their barbarian parents.   I think this
                 may well be where we are heading.
          \_ So the ancient Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Celts, etc. were not in
             Europe? How about native American cultures in the USA?
              yet know about.
                 pushed to the point where there is a vast underclass of
                 idiot kids who were put in schools with a midaeval
                 curriculum by their barbarian parents.
2003/11/25 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11218 Activity:nil
11/24   Great, while we are invading other nations for weapon of mass
        destruction, we've just approved a defense bill that includes
        research on new (smaller) nukes so we can blast anyone we want.
        \_ Not that I support more nuclear arms research, but I'd hazard
           a guess that most of the motd camp thinks this is just fine and
           dandy.  Its the "Do what I say, not what I do" foreign policy.
             \_ Well considering we don't starve 90% of our population to
                death and are not ushering in the new caliphate by
                blowing up all non-believers... Of course, we can't
                expect the same criticism of Russia's development of
                the Topol-M or the continued testing by France in the
                South Pacific, because, as we all know the US is to
                blame for everything.
                \_ Nice strawman.  French nuclear testing has been
                   vigorously protested and criticized by a broad
                   spectrum of organizations.
                   \_ Not on the motd because as always any counter point to
                      the Blame/Hate America First camp is always a strawman
                      or a bad source or dismissed in some other way that
                      shuts down all discussion since there's no other counter.
                      \_ There's actually plenty of counters, its just that
                         motd liberals have better things to do than to
                         participate in endless circular arguments with
                         right wing motd cranks.  Like, getting out and
                         seeing the sun and spending time with their
                         friends, and stuff.
2003/11/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11104 Activity:high
11/16   Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust
        \_ It's a free republic link, it must be nonsense!
           \_ It's a reprint of an article from a real paper. of course, this
              is almost certainly illegal.  not that i would care normally, but
                                  \_ Unless of course they have permission.
              there's a certain irony to all these law and order conservative
              motherfuckers building a site on routine violation of
              copyright law.  kind of like rush limbaugh being a drug fiend
              copywrite law.  kind of like rush limbaugh being a drug fiend
              who for some reason doesn't have to be locked up for ten years
              like a typical War on Drugs victim.
              \_ how many people have been locked up for ten years for
                 abusing prescription drugs?  none?  thought so.  come back
                 when you're less bitter about being in the minority and
                 want to discuss facts instead of your bitter delusions.
        \_ It's not forgotten as are killings of millions of other peoples
           during the Stalin's era. The brutal past is probably the reason
           why the people in the Baltic states and Ukraine (specially Western
           \_ Not just "these days".  They've always been.  1955 for a good
              example of modern but not too recent events.
              like a typical War on Drugs victim.
           Ukraine) are so anti-russian these days.
2003/11/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29630 Activity:nil
11/10   I guess there is a hope in US government system. Supreme Court is
        hearing Guantanamo Prisoner's case!
        \_ Yeah, they heard the Florida '00 Case, too.  Vote Green for Clean
           \_ W00t!
        \_ That's cool, except can anyone please explain why the 400,000 Nazi
           POWs in America (mostly captured from the Afrika Korp) were treated
           with food, shelter, and entertainmant while the Japanese Americans
           were subjected to Internment, which is... crap?
                \_ http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/german-pows-in-america.html
                   German generals were given fine wine, steak, and music
                   as POWs. What is wrong with this picture?
                \_ so I don't want to sound racist or anything, but all the
                   Japanese people I personally know of are so myopic, I
                   wonder how they even flew the Mitsubishi Zeros, let alone
                   bomb Pearl Harbor. Can anyone explain?
                   \_ They had glasses if they needed them.  Probably used
                      people with good eyesight for pilots.  And the question
                      *is* kinda racist.
           \_ Geneva Convention states that POWs should be treated in much the
              same way as your own soldiers.  The U.S. also hoped that by
              treating German POWs well, Germany would treat U.S. POWs better.
              Japanese internees were not covered by the Geneva Convention and
              hence were SOL.
2003/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics] UID:10713 Activity:nil 75%like:10700
10/21   Danh is in the news again!
        \_ That you, aspo?
2003/10/20 [Politics, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10700 Activity:nil 75%like:10713
10/20   danh in the news
        \_ That you, aspo?
2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10622 Activity:nil
10/13   http://www.iht.com/articles/113629.html is the first step to the
        US finally bringing our troops home and letting the EU pay for
        their own defense.
        \_ you mean redeploy our troops to other third world countries.
        \_ how fucking long ago was it that the whole fucking world
           was united behind the US in goodwill and military support
           after 9/11?  Now we have the most precarious split of NATO
           since its inception.  Great fucking foreign relations, W.
           \_ Goodwill doesn't keep your citizens safe, capture or stop
              foreign terrorists, shutdown terrorist training bases or
              really do much else for us.  Once we started trying to cash in
              that goodwill it dried up really god damned fast.  It was just
              foreign PR.  It's easy to say, "oh! the world's greatest super
              power just took a civilian hit, let's send a nice note!"  thats
              what diplomats do.
           \_ It's unclear it's W's fault.  The whole world may have been
              united behind the US, but as soon as the US started flexing a
              little muscle, various countries started noticing it wasn't in
              their best interest.  Go figure, the world is ruled by
              self-interest.  The US only had support while it did nothing,
              and it could no longer afford to do nothing.
              \_ That's right, the Iraqis had nukes headed our way!
              \_ A little diplomacy can go a long way. Look how Bush I got
                 the whole world to line up behind him for Gulf War I.
                 \_ Only in name and tokens.  It was an American action as
              \_ Other countries backed us up when we invaded Afghanistan.
                 They objected when we invaded a country that did not support
                 al Qaeda.
                 \_ Bush and the neocons are right. Everyone else in the
                    whole wide world is crazy. Just ask them.
                 \_ We've seen links here claiming otherwise.  Unless you're
                    in the intelligence agencies assigned to an anti-terror
                    unit, you can't know either way what links there may or
                    may not have been.
                    \_ Then you're on the same page as Dick Cheney ...
                       This article argues against that:
              \_ NATO was enough for Serbia.  NATO was enough for the first
                 gulf-war.  The French and Germans, and now Britain are saying
                 NATO is not enough....  hmmm...  I wonder why ??
                 \_ Because after the Soviets fell to Ronald Reagan they're
                    no longer afraid.  We killed the big bad wolf for them
                    so it's now safe for them to march around heads held high
                    saying they don't need us anymore.  They're right for the
                    present but they'll be sorry in about 20 years and come
                    begging for help again and again we'll do it.  Not sure
                    why.  We're just stupid like that I guess.
                    \_ So true...
                    \_ uh huh.  Everyone knows the Soviets fell to Ronald
                       Reagan between the Serbian conflict and the recent
                       Iraqi war.
2003/10/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Finance/Investment] UID:10593 Activity:low
10/10   Free trade can hurt developing countries:
        \_ All trade policies, in fact all government policies hurt someone
           somewhere at someone else's expense.  There is no perfect trade
           policy.  There is no perfect law.  It's just a case of forming
           policies that help this country without hurting others worse
           than necessary.
        \_  Boy they are really stretching data based on a mess
            of assumptions.  (especially the independence of obviously
            not independent data).  All the data really shows is that
            rich countries are less corrupt than poor ones, which is
            far from earth shattering.  Take a look at their lame
            Note that the "closed" economies GDP only goes up to 9.
            Why did they include data on the US and UK then?  (and the
            rest above 9) because it gives them a much larger slope in
            their "rich to poor" corruption curve. -phuqm
            \_ The Economist comes to the same conclusion, though I have
               not seen the data to back up their reasoning. -AMC
               \_ The Economist has stated many times that the poor countries
                  are to benefit more from free trade than the rich countries,
                  that is, if the rich countries stop subsidizing and do remove
                  import barries on agricultural comodities, textiles, and other
                  goods that can be produced more cheaply in the developing
                  \_ yeah, so if you're in the middle class and "haven't
                     gotten yours," you should be concerned about globalization
                      \_ Everyone should be concerned with free trade.  It is
                         to everyone's benefit and the very first thing everyone
                         should be concerned with is eliminating the above
                         mentioned barriers on agriculture that the US (and
                         other rich countries put up) and specifically the US
                         should stop giving nearly 100 Billion dollars to rich
                         corporate farmers like ADM. -phuqm
                         \_ yes, you are right. i agree. --aaron
                             \_ Aaron agrees with me.  jeesh, i better rethink
                                This is a first ;) -phuqm
                         \_ ok, it will probably benefit the whole of
                            humanity, but will it benefit every individual?
                             \_ It will certainly benefit everyone who pays
                                taxes because the above-mentioned trade barriers
                                are raised with your taxes.
                             \_ The good of the many outweighs of the good of
                                the few.
                                \_ for the rest of our natural lives, the
                                   "many" that you talk about will be people
                                   who populate corporate boards, not the
                                   peons in third-world countries
                                   \_ Sucker.
                             \_ I don't care. -phqum
                  \_ Sure, but Ghana has no leverage or control over EU and
                     US farm policy. In the interim they have been better off
                     protecting nascent local industries until they can become
                     large enough to become export industries. This was
                     practiced with great success by Japan in the 60s, Hong
                     Kong in the 70s and Korea in the 80s. A wide open market
                     favors established industries to an overwhelming degree.
                     \_ and in the meanwhile.. the consumers will suffer. Also,
                        there are plenty examples where raising trade barriers
                        hurt the consumers (obviously) AND failed to make the
                        protected industries competitive.
                        \_ It is certainly a tricky balance to make. But those
                           countries that have successfuly made the jump from
                           developing nation to developed nation in the last
                           50 years all did it. Finding the right mix of
                           protectionism and unrestricted trade is hard or
                           everyone would have done it. The point is that
                           mindless devotion to the neoliberal model is bad
                           for developing countries. See Argentina, Russia
                           from 1991-1996 and many, many other examples.
                         mentioned barriers on agriculture that the US (and other
                         rich countries put up) and specifically the US should
                         stop giving nearly 100 Billion dollars to rich corporate
                         farmers like ADM. -phuqm
                     favors established industries to a great degree.
2003/10/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:10414 Activity:nil
10/1    http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_822534.html
        \_ I heard a story about this on NPR. The picture is better.
        \_ lol. The Russian text says: "A magazine about how money's made"
                                                Now, -thats- funny. _/
2003/9/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10358 Activity:moderate
9/29    When we send something through the mail to another country, what
        incentive do the other countries have to deliver it? In other
        words, when we send domestic mail, we pay postage to the USPS,
        but what happens with international mail? Do the countries
        have some sort of agreement set up to pay each other?
        \_ http://www.upu.int/index.html  -John
           \_ it took a little digging, but that site turned out to be
              immensely useful.  thanks.  -!op
              \_ URLp?
              \_ yeah, could you please specify where you found the info?
                 At the top level, it's mostly fluff, and doesn't give
                 much insight...
                 \_ Ever hear of a faq? -nivra
           \_ http://www.upu.int/members/en/members.html  Funny. Taiwan
              isn't listed as a member.  How does mail get delivered there?
              \_ Magic fairy doves!
                 \_ Evil capitalist fairy doves
                    \_ Mail delivery has little to do with capitalism.
                \_ Falun Gong couriers!
2003/9/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10353 Activity:nil 50%like:10335
9/28    Hey ChiCom troll, another one for you:
        http://www.chinaembassy.org.pl/pol/44281.html (Poland?)  -John
        \_ Falun Gong is evil.
        \_ As you probably know, the western media will support any group
           that has anything remotely bad to say about China. This has been
           the case, and will probably always be the case for a while.
           \_ With good reason.  There's little good to be said about the
              current Chinese government.
              \_ I don't know what is your reference.  Compare with US
                 government, then, perhaps.  But the current Chinese
                 government ever since the economic reform deserve
                 some credit.  Take aside all the fancy stuff such as
                 democracy, etc, life for average Chinese citizen has
                 gone better for the past 15 years.
                 \_ As opposed to the time before the past 15 years, where
                    the communists were also in charge?  Dumbass.
                    \_ Before it was communism, now it is capitalism.
                       Capitalism is good.  I love it.
                 \_ It's all that "fancy stuff" that you dismiss so readily
                    that makes the difference between good and evil.  Mussolini
                    made the trains run on time and Hitler turned the German
                    economy around.  Are those your role models for China?
                    \_ you invoked Hitler .. you lost.
                       \_ For more info on the mechanics of Godwin's Law,
                          we bring you the Godwin's Law FAQ:
                          \_ jesus.  what a fucking waste of time.  apparently
                             i haven't been missing anything since i stopped
                             reading usenet eight years ago.
                             \_ Ah, I see -- since you've been caught
                                misusing Godwin's law and pointed to a site
                                actually clarifying it for you...it's therefore
                                not worth reading?  That's really dumb.
                             \_ And you're posting on the motd? *ring* Kettle,
                                this is the pot calling.  You're black.
                                \_ ok, ok, but i know i have a problem,
                                   and i'm trying to quit.
                    \_ China's role model has always been Taiwan, S. Korea,
                       Singapore.  Hitler believed in white supremacy, living
                       space and conquest.  China is more interested in making
                       money.  China's boom is driven by economic liberalization,
                       trade, entrepreneurship, foreign investments.  None of
                       these can be said of Nazi Germany.
                       \_ by "always" you mean since Deng took over, right?
                 \_ so you'd prefer a country that would invade another for
                    no good reason other than they have oil?
                    \_ Good countertroll.  *polite clapping*.
                    \_ Hey, some jealous fiend deleted *my* congrads on a
                       good countertroll!  I insist I get my counter troll
                       points!  It's in the archives!  -fellow troll
2003/9/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10328 Activity:nil
9/25    Is there a command line version of dict that does foreign languages?
        Not necessarily translation, but just definition in the same language.
        Specifically italian, thanks.
        \- see ispell. --psb
           \_ ?  Isn't that just for spell-checking?  I'm looking for a quick
              way to figure out what a particular word is while web browsing
              or reading text files.
              \- wall
                 \_ too long to get a response.
2003/9/24 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10307 Activity:nil
9/23    German sailors render extraordinary honors to US at sea
        \_ Nice.  Thanks for posting that.         -mice
                \_ Yeah nice--didn't they already do it once two years
                    back?  -John
                    \_ Doesn't diminish the gesture any.     -mice
        \_ Maybe every real man wasn't killed in WW2.  The few survivors
           sent their sons to the German navy.
        \_ Very nice.  Previous gesture mentioned above:
           http://www.atlanticfleet.navy.mil/church-lutjens.htm   -niloc
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