Politics Foreign Asia Others - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Foreign:Asia:Others:
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2010/3/24-4/14 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53759 Activity:nil
3/24    Global warming solves political dispute:
        Can't argue which country owns the island when it no longer exists.
        \_ Global warming is also responsible for human civilization.  It's the
           gift that keeps on giving.  Don't worry though, I'm sure some
           geo engineering will solve the pesky problem of western civ.
2010/1/19-29 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53639 Activity:nil
1/19    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100118/ap_on_re_us/us_us_haiti_gates
        "(US ambassador to haiti) Merten ... described downtown Port-au-
        Prince, the capital city, as resembling "Tokyo at the end of the
        Second World War."
        What kind of stupid remark is that!?  He could have said London or
        Paris or any other city on the Allies side.  "Hey Haitians, your place
        looks like that other city that we once bombed the hell out of."
        \_ are you an idiot?  London and Paris didn't have the crap bombed out
           of them at the end of the second world war.  -tom
           \_ "The Blitz and other bombing by the German Luftwaffe during
              World War II killed over 30,000 Londoners and destroyed large
              tracts of housing and other buildings across London"
              \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
                 "...the most destructive bombing raid in history."
                 Paris was not damaged at all during WWII.
              \_ OK, thanks for answering my question.  ("yes.")  -tom
2009/8/17-9/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53275 Activity:nil
8/17    After Civil War reenactment, there is now Vietnam Way reenactment!
        \_ Unbelievable! Where are they going to get all the "gooks"?
           Also I'm really surprised that of all the war reenactments,
           there hasn't been a nut case with loaded munition shooting
           at people.... or has there?
2009/7/23-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53187 Activity:nil
7/23    Click fraud rampant. Good for AdSense owners though!
2009/5/26-6/2 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:53046 Activity:low
5/26    "Photo of US soldier in pink boxers turns iconic"
        Not a single mention about wearing a red shirt in a battlefield screams
        "Shoot me!" and endangers one's comrades.  He should have covered it up
        or taken it off at the first opportunity.
        \_ And how much war experiance do you have?  Hint, playing Red Alert
           doesn't count.
           \_ Nor does watching "Star Trek".
        \_ Dood, medics have to wear red crosses on their arms.
           \_ Supposedly enemies shouldn't shoot the medics, so the red crosses
              scream "DON'T shoot me!"
              \_ Let me tell you, if I ever actually made it into combat,
                 the first thing I would have done is strip off that stupid
                 arm band. -former medic
                 \_ I heard that non-maimed army men get laid a lot because they
                    have many manly stories to tell and ladies love their strong
                    manly presence. Is this true? Is it?
                    \_ I don't know, but I got laid a lot in the co-ops. I don't
                       think it had anything to do with being ex-army, but
                       perhaps all that PT helped give me muscles.
                       \_ No, it's just that most women in the co-ops were
                          easy. I'd be afraid to sleep with most of them.
                 \_ Bill Cosby has a great routine on being a Corpsman in
                    Korea. First lesson: the North Koreans do not
                    Vietnam. First lesson: the North Vietnamese do not
                    recognize the Geneva Convention and so will actively
                    target Corpsmen. Cue a bunch of Corpsmen furiously
                    scrubbing the red cross off their helmets with Brillo
2008/12/7-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:52190 Activity:nil
12/6    worst prank call ever
        \_ /facepalm. These guys are really on edge.
        \_ worst in that it didn't actually get them to finish the deal
           bout time we got some results for all the money with give them
2008/12/5-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:52182 Activity:nil
12/5    asians are bad bad bad
        \_ Don't give your Myspace info to shady Vietnamese dudes
           \_ Gee is a Cantonese last name. Are you racist or something?
              \_ all look same
        \_ You know, if only she had a CCW permit and a gun...    -chico dude
2008/11/27-12/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:52120 Activity:nil
11/27   http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=a96.kD6rKZM0&refer=india
        101 dead in India. Word of advice: don't tell gunmen that
        you're an American/Britain. Say that you're a Canadian, and
        that you never supported Bush's war. Seriously, you didn't
        actually support his war right? It's aboot time that I practice
        my Canadian accent.
        \_ http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/oct/31bpo1.htm
        \- "They have grenades, they have AK47s...they have 100kg of chicken."
           \_ And some of them are ambiguously gay!!!
        \_ http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/king.chopra.mumbai
        \_ "C[anadians] die a thousand deaths. The valiant taste of death
           but once." -jcaesar
2008/9/23-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:51270 Activity:moderate
9/22    "Pakistanis say suspected US drone shot down"
        One fewer friend, one more foe.
        \_ Isn't this what Obama said he'd do?
           \_ No, but why let facts get in the way.
           \_ Obama or Osama? Are we really supposed to belive that Obama said
              that he was going to start shooting at US aircraft?
              \_ i think pp was referring to Obama saying he would go into
                 Pakistan without its permission to get Osama
        \_ If you want to be depressed, this article in the NYTimes claims
           that Pakistan endlessly trolls us into giving them billions while
           they fund the Taliban.  Let me repeat.  We give Pakistan money.
           They funnel a large portion to the Taliban in return for the
           Taliban leaving Pakistan alone.  But lately the crazy portion
           \- and a large portion is funneled to the Army's "parallel
              economy" ... while not quite an african kleptocracy or
              saudi level concentration at the top, it's not a normal state.
              it's also a glarine example of "talk/ideology" is cheap in
              politics and how it is the amoral realm of calculation
              [in re: india].
              \_ Further complicating things is that nearly all Pakistanis have
                 at least one relative in the Army. The "parallel economy"
                 flows both ways.
           of the Taliban are too difficult to control and they have been
           suicide bombing inside of Pakistan.  This article is an excellent
           read, but it might drive you to drink:
           \_ http://www.fas.org/irp/world/pakistan/isi
           \_ Maybe Pakistan's military should do something other than
              stand around like pussies. The reason they don't is that
              Pakistanis are sympathetic to the Taliban. "Controlling the
              Taliban" isn't on the To Do list.
              \_ The tribal regions have never been under the control of the
                 Army or the Govt. They're pretty much autonomous, which is
                 why a) you hear plenty of horror stories about primitive
                 tribal law (e.g., rape as punishment), and b) the tribes have
                 made deals with the Taleban where beneficial to the tribes.
                 \_ Now is a good time to remedy that. People should be
                    registered, there should be checkpoints, heavy weapons
                    should be confiscated, the border should be watched
                    more closely, and documents issued/checked. This might
                    involve going house to house in each village. Build more
                    permanent bases in the region. That is how the US would
                    handle it. Once the machine guns and RPGs are off the
                    streets and the foreigners have been arrested or cleared
                    \_ wow. wow. You know it's easier to get weapons than
                       food & clean water in those regions right?
                       \_ Your point? You can't go in and build dams and
                          roads and other federally funded projects when
                          there are hostile morons roaming around with RPGs.
                          Cleaning up the mess that exists there and
                          imposing law is the first step to having food
                          and water instead of AK-47's.
                    then they can live somewhat normal lives again, but not
                    until then. Impose a curfew and take every male over 16
                    into custody (temporarily) if you have to.
                    \_ wow this is so idiotic, my god, you're an idiot.
                       \_ I agree. Lawless tribal areas are so much better for
                          US, Europe, and Pakistan than having some sort
                          of federal oversight.
                    \_ http://glumbert.com/media/gunmarket
                       \_ excellent video on The Gun Bazaar of Pakistan.
                          Thanks for sharing the video!
                       \_ good video, proves that the "round up everyone
                          evil" guy above is stupid.
                          \_ No, it's proof that the government needs to
                             regulate these weapons just like ours does.
                             \_ Yeah, that worked great in Somalia, Iraq,
                                Vietnam, etc...
                                \_ Working pretty well in Iraq and Vietnam
                                   wasn't ever really lawless. Somalia was
                                   a token effort.
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2008/9/12-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:51153 Activity:low
9/12    Perhaps it is a War with Pakistan that is the October Surprise:
        This seems kind of stupid, especially since Pakistan has nukes.
        \_ Given that we know the problem with Pakistan and nukes, can you
           think of why there might be a reason to do this anyway?
           \_ There's never a reason for war. -liberal
              \_ So civil war and ww2 were a waste of time?
           \_ The GOP is behind in the polls?
           \_ The GOP is behind the polls?
        \- war is a "continuation of policy by other means" ... i dont think
           the us has policy goals w.r.t. pakistan which require "going to
           war" at the moment. rather it is a case of the us just ignoring
           pakistan's sovereignty, cf. Melian Dialog: "the strong do what
           they can and the weak suffer what they must." of course this is
           an interesting norm for the us to push ... say while lecturing
           russian about georgia, or in the future if say india decides
           they need to attack inside pakistan based on goals relating
           to india's kashmir policy [although this may be better deterred
           by nukes]. pakistan was never the us's friend and the us not
           taking india's side for many years shows how cheap political
           rhetoic and ideology is [although to be expected in the
           rhetoric and ideology is [although to be expected in the
           anarchic international system].
           \_ Do you know what a casus belli is?
              \- yes, i do. do you know what "proechein/proschema" means?
                 (thucydides >> grotius, waltzer, augustine etc). anyway,
                 there is CB/normative, CB/propaganda and  CB/empirical.
                 anyway, the point is "casus belli/normative aka "ius ad
                 bellum" has changed over time" (as has "ius in bello") ...
                 material resources, security dilemma, religious conversion
                 etc. the US/bush doctrine partly has been controversial
                 because it suggests a change in casus belli/normative.
                 as was say the monroe doctrine introducing [sic] the idea
                 of a "sphere of influence". of course, i'm only guessing
                 about "what is your point" ...
                 \_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_10
                 \_ http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ocw7w
                    Pakistan is going to start shooting back, which kind of
                    puts a hole in your theory that they just have to put up
                    with our shenanigans.
            \_ So what if Pakistan has nukes? I don't think they want to play
               that game with USA. USA spent a lot of time and money
               during the cold war planning engagements against an enemy
               "with nukes".
               \_ I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. The
                  government is very shakey there right now and it is
                  not out of the question that we could end up with a bunch
                  of Muslim Brotherhood types running that country. It is
                  kind of hard to tell how they would react to their territorial
                  sovereignty being violated like that.
2008/8/28-9/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50993 Activity:nil
8/28    Solzhenitsyn's Harvard Address from 1978.  Quite amazing, I'd never
        read it.
        \_ do you agree with it, or is it an interesting curiosity to you?
           (it appears to support gw bush!)
           "a decline in courage has been considered the beginning of the end"
           "people also have the right not to know, and it is a much more
           valuable one"
           "socialism of any type and shade leads to a total destruction"
           "politicians who signed the hasty Vietnam capitulation seemingly
           gave America a carefree breathing pause; however, a hundredfold
           Vietnam now looms"
           "It is not possible that assessment of the President's performance
           be reduced to the question of how much money one makes or of
           unlimited availability of gasoline. Only voluntary, inspired
           self-restraint can raise man above the world stream of materialism."
           \_ Only if you read it selectivly and with blinders on.  And now I
              see from a Google search that seems to be a favorite talking
              point on the right wing blogs these days.
              \_ Actually I wasn't selective. If I'm blind, what did I miss?
                 \_ Bush is courageous? Didn't he turn tail and hide on 9/11?
        \_ I can list about 500 reasons why Bush should be stuck on his
           own prison planet.  I don't use just one metric.
        \_ Suggest you learn about his book 200 Years Together - might
           reveal some insights on WWII, the power structure in this
           country, and why you don't hear much about him these days.
2008/8/26-9/3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50972 Activity:nil
8/26    Gary Glitter spent months in a Vietnamese prison cell.  Can I vote
        for him too?
        \_ that's a fit punishment for writing "Rock and Roll Part II".  -tom
        \_ What are you talking about?
           \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Glitter
              \_ I know who Glitter is--I didn't ask *who* the op was talking
                 \_ Did you see the part about how he was sent to jail in
        \_ BUD DAY doesn't appreciate what you are trying to imply here.
        \_ OJ Simpson is a black celebrity.  Can I vote for him too?
           \_ Your analogy doesn't hold since Barack Obama isn't so much a
              celebrity as a politician. Your analogy would work somewhat
              better if you stated that the similarity between OJ and Barack
              is that they're both black, but that would make you sound
              racist, esp. as op drew parallels between experience and not
              skin color. Would you like to try again?
              \_ No, because you are incredibly stupid and not worth
                 conversing with.
                 \_ Yay! Win by annoying you! Yay!
2008/8/18-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50892 Activity:nil
8/18    Well, that was quick: Musharraf steps down:
2008/8/8-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50817 Activity:high
8/8     Edwards admits affair, doesn't admit for being incredible
        stupid dumbass who apparently thought having an affair and having
        his life withstand the scrutiny of being a viablepres. candidate
        were sustainable
        \_ He's a Democrat. This is expected. No big deal. Suck dick,
           fuck pussy, whatever. Just don't do anything stupid like
           invading a country and getting ourselves into deep shit.
           Look you fucking Conservatives. Adultery is a sustainable
           business. Invading countries in the Holy Name of Freedom
           is NOT a sustainable business. Ok?
           \_ Liberals invaded Vietnam and Korea.  Actually, liberals invaded
              Iraq too, in the Senate anyway.  Atheist liberals ran the USSR.
              Look at the subways and efficient apartment buildings they built.
              Iraq was a fucked up country already.  I don't like that I had
              to spend my tax dollars fixing their problems but in the long
              run they will probably be better off.  I dunno about us being
              better off though.  Also, Bush != "Conservatives".  Bush is
              not a classical conservative.
              \_ "Liberals" invaded Vietnam and North Korea? Wtf are you
                 talking about? If you mean that Democrats got us involved in
                 those two conflicts, you seriously need to read a book some
                 time. The people who ran the Soviet Union are not the same
                 as the Clintons. Get out of the 50s. Wake up. -!pp
                 \_ Harry Truman.
                    \_ What, are you channeling Batman from the video below?
                       You're not making any sense. What are you trying to
                       \_ "...liberals invaded Iraq too..." It's almost like
                          they're proud of being ignorant.
                       \_ Harry Truman was President when Vietnam started.
                          He was a Democrat.
                          \_ And? When did this supposed invasion occur?
                             \_ Well, I might argue it was when the first
                                American soldiers entered S. Vietnam. Or
                                could be during LBJ's term with passing of
                                the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.
                                the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. The start
                                and escalation of the conflict happened
                                with Democrats in office. They could have
                                just sent all Americans home but instead
                                sent troops. Sending troops is an invasion.
                             \_ In earnest after Gulf of Tonkin Resolution,
                                but before then even. Troops were pulled
                                out under a Republican, of course.
                                \_ Send combat troops to aid friendly
                                   govt. != invade. Running away !=
                                   pulling troops.
                                   \_ Ask the Vietnamese if they consider
                                      it an invasion.
                                      \_ North or South?
                                         \_ Either/or. Fully 80% of Vietnamese,
                                            whether in the North or South,
                                            considered the US an unwanted
                                            aggressor. It's one reason we
                                            left. No one wanted us there
                                            except a minority of elites.
                          \_ Truman? Are you proud of being ignorant? The
                             puppet state was set up by Eisenhower.
                             \_ Are you proud of being a douchebag?
                                Truman started it. (D)  Kennedy was the first
                                to send combat troops. (D)
                                \_ You keep saying that "Truman started it" but
                                   you are unable to explain what you mean by
                                   "it." The nation of Vietnam? It has existed
                                   for at least 1000 years. Try again, in
                                   English this time.
                                   \_ Duh, US military involvement in Vietnam.
                                      Do you have a cognitive impediment?
                                      The point was, Democrats got us involved
                                      in the Vietnam War (and Korea). Why not
                                      explicitly say whatever it is you think
                                      refutes this instead of dancing around
                                      with your head in your ass?
                                      (the puppet government is irrelevant)
                                      \_ Christ, if you're going to go down
                                         this route, why not just say that
                                         Wilson started it when he wouldn't
                                         hear out Ho Chi Minh's proposal for
                                         Viet independence after the signing
                                         of the Treaty of Versailles?
                                         \_ Because Kennedy and LBJ are the
                                            ones who actually started US
                                            combat operations in Vietnam.
                                            Keep dancing.
                                      \_ I can't wipe out a lifetime of
                                         ignorance in a few paragraphs, sorry.
                                         From the Vietnamese eyes, the
                                         Vietnamese war of independence started
                                         in 1885. The first direct US involve-
                                         ment in Vietnam was during WWII, so you
                                         might as well blame FDR. The actual
                                         Civil War between north and south
                                         started during Eisenhower and JFK sent
                                         sent first US combat troops Trying to pin
                                         US involvement in Vietname on Truman
                                         is just bizarre.
                                         sent first US combat troops. Trying to
                                         pin US involvement in Vietname on
                                         pin US involvement in Vietnam on
                                         Truman is just bizarre.
                                         \_ Truman was President first and
                                            the US was already involved
                                            militarily by the time Eisenhower
                                            was elected. However, you can blame
                                            FDR, too, if you want.
                             \_ Google MAAG
                                Besides, we sure were lucky D's were
                                elected and stopped the conflict before it
                                got out of hand!
                                \_ So your claim is that the US/Vietnam conflict
                                   started while Vietnam was still a French
                                   colony under French control? How did you do
                                   in your history classes? Get any A's?
                                   colony under French control?
                                   \_ No, my claim is that US military
                                      involvement started then.
                 \_ You're wrong.
                    \_ Am I? Whew. Thank you for, um, your convincing
                       argument backed up with facts.
                       \_ My point exactly!  Have a cigar.  And a dick.
                          \_ No thanks, you're a big enough dick for
                             the both of us.
        \_ Shit, good thing the Democrats didn't nominate him.
        \_ What happened to 'mccain has affair, nytimes reports on it,
           mccain served in vietnam so no one follows up'
2008/7/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50528 Activity:kinda low
7/9     Why do foreign companies like Toyota start new manuafcturing plants
        here in the US?  Should they be going to China or Thailand or India
        where blue-collar labor costs are much lower and regulations are
        \_ It is a way to get around protectionist US import quotas.
        \- YMWTFG(Voluntary Export Restraints)
        \_ It's good public relations. More recently, some manufacturing
           work is moving back to the US due to the higher costs of
           shipping product from overseas.
        \_ It's cheaper to build it here when you're selling it here.
         \_ Which is key.  The parts are built out of country.  Parts are
            easier to ship and easier to do JIT delivery over long time
            frames.  Labor savings are not as important as being local when
            it comes to the finished car.  (Also us workers, while costly
            are also pretty damn educated and OSHA laws actually have huge
            benefits when it comes to not losing educated workers or time.)
            \_ I didn't know these.  Thanks.  -- OP
2008/7/9-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:50519 Activity:nil
7/9     Okay, maybe we should be bombing Pakistan after all
2008/6/24-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50361 Activity:nil 66%like:50358
6/24    Correlation between temperature, skin color, and IQ:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvaru4 [majority rights]
        \_ What, you couldn't find a stormfront link?
2008/6/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50358 Activity:nil 66%like:50361
6/24    Correlation between temperature, skin color, and IQ:
2008/6/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:50185 Activity:nil
6/8     US News reprints McCain's first person POW account from '73.
2008/5/10-16 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49928 Activity:nil
5/10    will more hot desi women move to the states, now that
        all of India is about to run out of water?
        \- No, they wll be moving to Australia, starting in August.
2008/4/16-23 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49760 Activity:nil
4/15    Being a controversial book aside, IQ and the Wealth of Nations
        shows that we're the SMARTEST NATION BABY!!! 107! bahaha -proud hk
        \_ I'm an athiest and I'm smarter than everyone else!
           \_ http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/09/24/headsize_hum.html
              Head size has some correlation with IQ. YEAH BABY  -big head Asian
           \_ You're also uglier than everyone else.
           \_ I don't listen to country music, therefore I'm smart!
           \- northerners are smarter. S Cal people are STUPID:
              \_ Attractiveness inversely correlates with intelligence, so NoCal
                 people are UGLY. SoCal people are beautiful.
                 \_ It's true. Plan B Gentlement's Club, Spearmint Rhino,
                    4 Play, Deja VU Showgirls are consistently better than
                    any of the strip clubs I go to in N Cal. I mean just
                    compare gorgeous babes in S Cal beaches vs. smelly
                    hippy bitches in N Cal. Moral of the story: If you wanna
                    get laid with dumb bimbos, S Cal is THE place baby!
                 \_ ob dumb blonde joke.
        \_ I didn't realize HK was a nation. I guess the authors have
           a low IQ.
           \_ Nor was Puerto Rico.  BTW Macau (avg IQ 104) is mentioned in the
              text but not in the table.  Maybe the author is not completely
              dumb after all.
        \_ Wow!  The big dragon and the four small dragons of Asia took the top
           five spots.
           \_ And Germany is #7. Obviously, Hitler knew what he was doing.
           \_ What I see from this graph:
              Light colored athiest >> Christians > Muslims > colored athiests
2008/3/23-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49541 Activity:low
3/23    Democracy comes to isolated kingdom - Yahoo! News:
        '"If you had a referendum, even today, Bhutan would reject democracy.
        That's the ground reality," said Khandu Wangchuk, the burly, gravel-
        voiced former foreign minister who is running for a seat in the
        western town of Paro. "But there's no use wishing democracy away."'
        Between the Democratic presidential nomination and the Taiwan election
        yesterday, this is strange news.
        \- Bhutan is not a "normal place". The "gross national happiness"
           would be a lot lower if not for massive indian subsidies.
           would be a lot lower if not for massive Indian subsidies.
           Imagine Hawaii without govt handouts, and the govt not turning a
           blind eye to Hawaiian price discrimination etc. For example
           Bhutanese can buy cars heavily subsidiezed by find from India,
           which they then turn around and sell at a profit to Indians ...
           rinse and repeat. Also they have no foreign policy/defense
           expenditure etc.
           Bhutanese can buy cars heavily subsidized by India, which they
           then turn around and sell at a profit to Indians ... rinse and
           repeat. Also they have no foreign policy/defense expenditure etc.
           And this doesn include airport, power, road building etc
           subsidies or outright construction. Bhutan = leech.
           \_ The Feb. Natl Geo paints those subsidies as India buying hydro-
              electric power. Is this not a correct depiction?
              \- I have not read the National Geographic article, so I
                 cannot comment on that, but there is very large development
                 subsisdies as well as non-developmental subsidies from
                 India. Bhutan doesnt do anything other than moderate
                 tourism. Bhutan = leech.
2008/2/28-3/4 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49288 Activity:nil
2/28    Prince Harry looking like a bad-ass American GI:
        http://www.csua.org/u/kx1 (Yahoo! News Photos)
        \_ Doesn't he look more like a British soldier?
           \_ But that face looks more like an American GI in Vietnam to me.
              -- OP
2008/2/14-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49139 Activity:nil
2/14    Smoking and latent tuberculosis form a synergy of death.
        This is a case were YOUR bad habit can cause YOU to become
        infectious and deadly to others, far beyond just "secondhand smoke".
        \_ even MORE reasons to move away from city-dwelling liburals
           and retreat to my gated suburban community   -Republican
        \_ "The results are partly explained by the fact that, unlike in the
            West, many people in India are infected with asymptomatic
            tuberculosis. Smoking can cause enough damage to the lungs that
            the latent infection can no longer be contained, researchers said."
           Where do you draw the connection of smoking being infectious and
           deadly to others?
           \_ Latent tuberculosis is not generally transmissable to others.
              Active tuberculosis IS.  Smoking activates latent
              tuberculosis.  Is the connection clear now?
              \_ Okay, so in India, where latent tuberculosis is prevalent,
                 a culture of smoking keeps activating the virus and making
                 it more likely to spread. Thank goodness that's not the
                 case here in the States.
2008/2/3-7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:49056 Activity:nil
2/3     Maybe old news - McCain's racist remark from Seattle Post-Intelligencer
        March 2, 2000: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml
        \_ I've heard it before.  I was always a little confused though.
           Doesn't 'gook' refer to Koreans?
           \_ Generally considered a reference to Vietnamese. Might have been
              repurposed from Korean Conflict.
              \_ I've heard the term referenced against both, but more often
                 referenced against Vietnamese.
           \_ More to the point, it's a word the soldiers used to refer to the
        \- hanguk -> korea. Dae Han Min Gook!
        \_ If ever I would forgive anyone for racism, it's McCain for being
           racist against Vietnamese.
2007/8/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:47501 Activity:high 75%like:47503
8/1     Because of this increase in cooperation from local Vietnamese in
        confronting the Vietcong and other extremist groups, the number of
        weapons caches seized in Vietnam has increased dramatically, already at
        3,700 in the first 7 months of 1967. Only 2,726 terrorist and
        insurgent weapons caches were removed from circulation in all 1966.
        \_ ok that was pretty good.
2007/2/9-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:45697 Activity:low
2/9     On August 2nd, the USS Maddox was attacked by three North Vietnamese
        P-4 patrol boats 28 miles away from the North Vietnamese coast in
        international waters...
        \_ Huh?
        \_ Excuse me, which tree-hugging hippie commune did fall out of?
           Iraq is not Vietnam. And North Vietnam is not Iran.
           \_ I think Iran is 100x worse than Vietnam.  Our oil was not
              under Vietnam.  Goddamn Bush!
              \_ Yeah, how stupid of him was it to put all our oil under
                 Iran?  Why didn't he put our oil under Texas or Alaska
                 or something?
                 \_ Because his Saudi oil masters wouldn't let him.
                    "We are merely exchanging long protein strings. If you can
                     think of a simpler way, I'd like to hear it."
                    \_ Well that was stupid to put the oil under Saudi Arabia
                       then, wasn't it?
2006/10/9-10 [Transportation/Motorcycle, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:44740 Activity:low
10/10   Think Los Angeles traffic is bad? Go to India:
        \_ True. And if you think any US traffic is bad, go to any
           non-Western country.
           \_ This video is sped up at least twice.
2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:44455 Activity:nil
9/19    Who are the fucking Prisoners at Gitmo?
        "After two months of sifting the fucking information, Hegland had her answer...
        It showed that most of the fucking detainees hadn't been caught 'on the
        battlefield' but rather mostly in Pakistan; fewer than half were
        accused of fighting against the fucking U.S., and there was scant evidence to
        confirm that they were even combatants. In other words, most of the
        detainees probably were entirely innocent."
2006/7/9-10 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:43607 Activity:low
7/9     ok, India just test fire a missile that is capable of carry nuclear
        warhead and has the range to hit Beijing.
        How come there is no "concern" when India test its missile and
        develop nuclear bomb?
        \_ Why the "quotes" around "concern"?  Probably India actually notified
           other nations of the test and where the rockets were pointed.  And
           of course Kim Jong Il is a crazy little man.
             re: india, what are you "worried" about?
             \_ Rocketman!? We'd better send him to pick up the hash in
           \_ how come there is no talk of saction again India?  I mean
              missile testing alone is not an illegal act.  our over-reaction
              was anticipated thus being leveraged by Kim Jong Il.
        \_ Wow, the Purina Troll Chow is really getting results!  -John
        \_ The politically correct answer is because India is a
           democratic society, unlike NK, therefore they will not go
           nuts and start to attack others. But seeing how we've set a
           perfect example of how corporate greed and money can
           overweight right and wrong in a democratic society, I think
           we should be making a bit deal out of it too. Who knows,
           India may decide to bomb little countries that have oil
           \_ No, the answer is simply because India is a responsible
              country and NK is not.  Iran is not.  Israel is.  The US is.
              Britan is.  China is.  France is.  And at the moment, for the
              time being, Pakistan is.
2006/5/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:43006 Activity:low
5/10    Why is the troop death toll in Iraq so low? Technology! If someone's
        gonna die, just stick in a feeding tube. Voila! One less death.
        \_ so it is worse than Vietnam then.. our technology today
           is just lowering the kill count
           \_ "If you look at the overall death rate ... the case fatality
              rate is cut in half from Vietnam to now. And again I think that's
              due to better training, tactical combat casualty training,"
              I dunno about worse or better.  But to think about it: 2500 US
              soldiers have died in about 3 years, the senior surgeon above
              says that could be double without the better training, so it
              potentially could have been 5000 US dead.  We were in Vietnam
              for ~13 years, so 4 times longer than Iraq so far means:
              5000 * 4 = 20,000 hypothetical fatalities vs. ~50,000 in Vietnam.
              \_ Yeah, but there are many reasons why the fatality rate
                 is so much lower; medical technology, training, night vision,
                 more effective body armor, etc.  Lacking context, the
                 comparison doesn't really communicate very much.
              \_ take into account the terrain.. the jungle was much
                more difficult to spot.. in iraq it should be much easier
                ... we need tech to detech roadside bombs...
                \_ Err, comparing the Vietnam era, draft military to the
                   current day armed forces is meaningless.
        \_ traditionaly, we count casualties, not death.
           casualties ~= death + injured + captured.  By that account, we
           have close to 20k casualties out of 110k+ force.  The ratio is
           relatively high due to the small total force committed.
        \_ "Traditionally" "voila" - take any battle from any pre-vietnam
           war. Learn what casualties really mean.
        \_ so it is worse than Vietnam then.. our technology today
           is just lowering the kill count
           \_ "If you look at the overall death rate ... the case fatality
              rate is cut in half from Vietnam to now. And again I think that's
              due to better training, tactical combat casualty training,"
              I dunno about worse or better.  But to think about it: 2500 US
              soldiers have died in about 3 years, the senior surgeon above
              says that could be double without the better training, so it
              potentially could have been 5000 US dead.  We were in Vietnam
              for ~13 years, so 4 times longer than Iraq so far means:
              5000 * 4 = 20,000 hypothetical fatalities vs. ~50,000 in Vietnam.
              \_ Yeah, but there are many reasons why the fatality rate
                 is so much lower; medical technology, training, night vision,
                 more effective body armor, etc.  Lacking context, the
                 comparison doesn't really communicate very much.
              \_ take into account the terrain.. the jungle was much
                more difficult to spot.. in iraq it should be much easier
                ... we need tech to detech roadside bombs...
                \_ Err, comparing the Vietnam era, draft military to the
                   current day armed forces is meaningless.
2006/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Health/Women] UID:42522 Activity:nil
3/29    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4855682.stm
        Indian doctor aborts female fetuses in a land that prefers boys
        over girls, is jailed.
        \_ this practice makes Indian girls all the more exotic and precious.
           I feel bad for Indian men who can't find a mate. Ya reap what
           ya sow... then again, Muslims are worse.
           \_ Don't forget to mention how a lot of your friends are muslim.
2006/3/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:42474 Activity:nil
3/27    yes. muslims are psychos..  DIVORCE in sleep.. no need for vegas
        \_ This is in India, a country whose history of bureaucracy is
           surpassed only by China's. Cf. also the endosulfan, India's
           Living Dead: http://csua.org/u/fcq (TIME Asia)
2006/3/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:42054 Activity:nil
3/1     ACM has produced a significant new report on the impact
        of offshoring/outsourcing on the IT industry:
        Executive Summary and Findings:
        Bottom line: not nearly as bad as some had thought.
        http://CCNMoney.com article
2006/2/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:41878 Activity:high
2/15    New Torture images from Abu Ghirab released
        (warning, not for the faint of heart)
        \_ Yet not one picture of these 'cartoons'?
           \_ Um, heard of google?
              \_ In how many major publications are the cartoons?
        \_ curious about the timing, though.  why they release it now?
           \_ Some Aussie publishers were probably getting jealous that
              the US image in the middle east wasn't being tarnished as
              much by the European caricature fallout, so they decided to
              "correct" this situation.
           \_ The ACLU just won a FOIA challange.
                \_ The liberal media can't stand Muslims looking like
                barbarians, so they want to remind everyone the US is
                \_ both muslims and US are barbarians.
                   \_ Only great han nation not barbarian.
                      \_ Everyone is a barbarian, only great GERMAN HANS
                         JOHN not barbarian. HEIL JOHN!
                      \_ indians are not barbarians either.  very
                         civilized country.
                         \_ Unless you are in the wrong caste.
                            \_ caste is slowly disappearing in india,
                               whereas social mobility has been getting
                               worse in the US the last 2 decades.
                               \_ Are you talking out of your ass or do you
                                  have reputable research that support
                                  your statement?
                                  \_ I read.  try to do the same, or if
                                     that's beyond your mental capacity,
                                     you can always use google as your
                                  \_ I read.  you can always use google.
                               \_ If you don't like it then get the fuck
                                  out of my country             !williamc
                                  \_ i am just stating facts reported
                                     by the wsj.  no need to get all
                               \_ Repeat this five times to yourself,
                                  perhaps in front of a mirror, and
                                  you'll realize how stupid this sounds.
                                  \_ this whole thread is stupid,
                                     especially starting from the "liberal
                                     media" part.  yea, and the knee jerk
                                     "caste!" reaction whenever india is
                                     mentioned sure is intelligent.  you
                                     should look in the mirror yourself.
                                     \_ Civilized nations don't have castes
                                        in the 21st century, slowly
                                        disappearing or not. It's disingenuous
                                        to ignore that hideous aspect of
                                        Hindu culture. "Look in the
                                        mirror" indeed.
                                        \_ Civilized nations also don't
                                           torture people.
                                           \_ I disagree. Besides, the
                                              treatment of one's enemy
                                              is quite different from
                                              treatment of one's own people.
                                              \_ yea sure, the Hutus didn't
                                                 kill their own either.
                                                 They only butchered the
                                                 Tutsis.  So very
                                                 \_ Do you have a point with
                                                    that comment? I'm sure
                                                    Pakistanis are treated
                                                    well in Kashmir, right?
                                                    \_ Do you have a point
                                                       with that comment?
                                                       Regardless of what
                                                       happens in Kashmir,
                                                       you are still as
                                                       civilized as a
                                              \_ The treatment of ones
                                                 enemy is the clearest
                                                 indication of ones
                                                 I also fail to see how
                                                 you can compare the
                                                 caste system to torture.
                                                 What do you even know
                                                 about the caste system?
                                                 Did you know that most
                                                 brahmins were/are dirt
                                                 poor and depended on
                                                 poor and depend on
                                                 begging and handouts to
                                                 support themselves?
                                                 \- um this isnt true in any
                                                    meaningful way.
                                                    \_ My experience
                                                       indicates that
                                                       it is. We can
                                                       disagree, but
                                                       the domination
                                                       of the brahmins
                                                       is in my exp.
                                                       a grotesque
                                                       exaggeration of
                                                       the so-called
                                                       backwards com-
                                                 When one sees the plight
                                                 of the majority of the
                                                 "high born" one wonders
                                                 whether it is not a
                                                 curse, rather than a
                                                 \_ Tell em to get jobs like
                                                    everyone else.
                                        \_ Why not? What exactly is the
                                           problem your perceive w/ the
                                           caste system? That your birth
                                           problem you have w/ the caste
                                           system? That your birth
                                           precludes you from becoming a
                                           hindu priest? For, in reality,
                                           that is the ONLY restriction
                                           which caste places on a man.
                                           hindu priest? In reality that
                                           is the ONLY restriction that
                                           caste places on a man.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040113/asp/nation/story_2780541.asp _/
        \_ What does this have to do w/ the caste system?
           Those who act in this way do so w/ a completely
           incorrect understanding of the caste system.
           The caste system classifies men into certain
           stations based primarily on their conduct, not
           on their birth. Those who committed these crimes
           have no claim to any caste.
           To point to such people as the true and proper
           illustration of the caste system would be akin
           to pointing to hamas terrorists as the true and
           proper illustration of Islam or cross-buring KKK
           members as true and proper Christians.
           \_ The stuff in those links reflects on India and this is a thread
              where somebody claimed India is extra civilized.
              \_ wait.  what does this has to do with whether US and muslims
                 are barbarians?
           \_ I think someone here is in denial.
2006/1/20-23 [Finance/CC, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:41461 Activity:kinda low
1/20    So some guy (with an obvious Indian accent) calls me at home
        and says he's calling about some govt consumer grant where I can
        get up to $5000 and they will send me a package with an application
        and I can apply for the grant?  I was skeptical and just asked him
        if he was from India and he got pissed off and hung up on me.  So,
        do all the soda motders think this guy was really working for the
        govt and that they were calling me so I could apply for a grant,
        or is it more likely some scam?  He knew my name already, and
        didn't ask for any more information from me.
        \- maybe he was really from pakistan.
        \_ I'm from the Government and I'm here to help!
        \_ Maybe you should've asked if he was *in* India.
           \_ Well, I asked him where he was and he said he was in
              St. Petersberg, FL.  Later, I asked if he was from India.
              He said his last name was Rodgers, but he had an obvious
              foreign accent.  -op
        \_ Sounds like a scam to me.  Here:
           But here's a rule of thumb:  if it appeals to your greed, it's
           likely to be a scam.  I mean, how eager are you to give someone
           something for nothing?  --PM
           \- one of my credit card companies offered me i think $25,000
              for a year at 0% interest for $75 up front. after it became
              clear i didnt "need" the money, we actually had sort of an
              interesting conversation ... i said "that is below mkt interest"
              and she said she knew but they sort of rely on people screwing
              up and not being able to pay back or forgetting ... and then
              complimented be on having a high savings rate. that was a weirdly
              refreshing conversation. you got the sense the person at the
              other end was reasonable sharp and not a telemarketing drone.
              \_ YMEW
2006/1/2-4 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:41200 Activity:high
1/2     A friend of mine is considering Peace Corps. I've heard that it used
        to be a good program but in the past 25 years has lost a lot of its
        original lustre, that countries need more help managing resources
        than 22 year olds teaching them about sanitation, etc. Does anyone
        have any experience w/ Peace Corps? Or know of any good  criticisms
        of the program? I'll start with:
        \_ Use tinyurl.  I just met a woman who is some sort of Africa
               \_ why?
                  \_ why?
                     \_ why ask why?
                        \_ why not?
                           \_ why ask why not?
                              \_ Why not ask why not?
           expert in the peace corps and who described a lot of what they
           do very openly.  Apparently there's still a lot of need for
           outfits like PC--NGOs, as they are not guaranteed funding, tend
           to be very self-interested.  If you like, I can put you in touch
           with her (she was a good friend's roommate at GWU Law.)  -John
           \_ My understanding is people who can teach English and maybe
              elementary math are a dime a dozen. If you are a Civil Engineer
              or Medical Professional, who may be quite a hot commodity.
              However, that may also mean you can go into a USAID project
              or MSF/DrsWithoutBorders type program. I dunno if a vast
              knowledge of say BGP can be used by the Peace Corps.
              The do have a lot of restrictions, but I assume you have
              discovered some of those in your preliminary research.
        \_ My cousin is currently in the Peace Corps in Latin America.
           He seems to enjoy the actual work he does (I think he has
           been involved in getting farmers access to new markets via
           the internet and other such programs based on micro loans,
           but I'm not 100% sure).
           He has expressed some reservations about the way the Peace
           Corps is administered and the fact that in some places local
           politics can get in the way of providing any real assistance.
           iirc, in one town where my cousin worked, the local mayor
           actively resisted any work done by Peace Corps ppl b/c he
           felt that they didn't really understand the local situation.
           One problem I've seen with the Peace Corps is that they don't
           really train the people with real world skills like building
           homes or paving or farming before sending them out (most of
           the people I know who did Peace Corps weren't engineers) so
           they end up in big or small cities where they can't really
           do anything very too useful.
           For historical reference, my mom used to tell me stories of
           people who did Peace Corps in India. She says they mostly
           acted like tourists, walking around from village to village,
           giving out money and stuff. Mostly she says it was pretty
           lame because in a country like India, a few random english
           majors can't solve inherent problems related to lack of
           education and opportunity.
           the internet and other such programs but I'm not 100% sure).
           I remember he described some problems with the way the PC
           is administered and local government resistance. If you
           want to talk to him, let me know and I'll try to put you
           in contact with him.
           want to talk to him, let me know and I'll try to get you
           some contact info (I don't think he has email access right
           now). --ranga
        \_ primrose got back recently from a tour in the corps in togo
        \_ My girlfriend spent two years in the Peace Corps in Honduras.
           We went to visit her adopted Honduran family a couple years
           ago.  I think her impression is that the Peace Corps does good
           work, but the problems tend to be endemic and difficult to
           overcome.  It's certainly true that the Corps and all NGOs
           have great difficulty effecting change, due to local politics,
           corruption, and poverty.
           It is worth noting that the Peace Corps doesn't sponsor projects;
           Peace Corps volunteers are assigned to a project run by a local
           organization or NGO.  There is also a wide range of types of
           work to do, from health and science education, to business
           development, to engineering.  Apparently taxidermy is one of
           the most sought-after skills due to the huge problems of
           species endangerment and extinction in poor countries.
           It is a truism that Peace Corps volunteers get more out of the
           experience than the countries get out of the programs.  -tom
           \_ Join the Peace Corps: travel to exotic countries, encounter
              interesting and stimulating species of ancient eras.... and
              embalm them.
        \_ If I join the peace corps, will I get to have sex with all
           the local girls???? -what sodans really want to know!
           \_ "get to"?
2005/12/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Finance/Investment] UID:41122 Activity:low
12/22   For my motd investment buddy.
        I was looking at TKF (Turkish Investment Fund) and I noticed the
        Closing NAV: $18.97
        Closing Share Price: $23.85
        Premium/(Discount): 25.72%
        As a comparison, IFN (India Fund) has a premium of 5.05%
        And the CEE you also recommended has a discount of 3.9%
        Would you be worried about the 25.72% premium?
        \_ Yeah, it worries me. Especially since I own some TKF. I wish
           there was some other way to get exposure to Turkey. Do you
           know of any?
           \_ I don't know any other.  Thanks for the CEE tip.
              I will sell half my EUROX first thing 2006, and buy
              CEE with the money.  2006 so I don't pay capital
              gains until 2007.
2005/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:40878 Activity:low
12/6    I read that the PAKI in Pakistan stands for: Pashtun, Afgan,
        Kashmiris and Iranians.  Is that true?
        \_ Yes, because all acronyms around the world are from English
           transliterations, so as to make it easy for the U.S. media market.
        \- no
        \_ Short for Pakistani.  Don't call an Indian a Paki unless you
           want to insult them.
           \_ I thought "Paki" was insulting for Pakistanis as well.
              \- i assume the quetion was about "where does the name
                 "pakistan" come from, not about the usage of the
                 epithet "paki". some people say "wog" stands for
                 western oriential gentleman but that is probably not
                 true and it is just a nasty term that ex post had
                 various faux meanings attached to it. punjab on the
                 other hand certainly is from "5+waters". "paki"
                 i think is urdu for pure or sacred or something like that.
                 i dont know the origin. but it certainly isnt like say
                 "benelux" etc. anybody claiming "kashmir is an essential
                 part of pakistan and is the k in the name" is either confused
                 or bullshitting. the P if anything would be for punjab which
                 is much more important than pashtoon. and sind is left out.
                 YMWTS: http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/Humor/Peccavi.txt
                 i note in passing, the indian national anthem does have a
                 sanskritized list of parts of india.
        \_ easy to assess the veracity of the claims made in this web site:
2005/11/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:40564 Activity:low
11/13   Dropping The Bomb on Vietnam Myths
        Burkett has exposed innumberable purported Vets as frauds, including
        many who were deified by their media counterparts such as Dan Rather.
        \_ this message was brought to you by jblack who forgot to take
           his daily medication today.
        \_ Have you stopped beating your dead horse?
        \_ the 5 million Vietnamese dead will be glad to know
           they did not die atrociously.
           \_ i'm sure you're right but that has nothing to do with this link.
              criticism is always much stronger when it's on target.
              \_ actually, i'm sure both burkett and the 5 million dead guy
                 are right on a fact-by-fact basis.  it's just that burkett is
                 the guy who puts forward the strawmen.
2005/10/5-6 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:39990 Activity:moderate
10/5    Hypothetical question: Suppose there's a shortage of resources,
        should the free market take its course which will hopefully
        make self-corrections, or should the government intervene and
        ration resources? What are the pros and cons for either approaches?
        \_ don't know about pro and con, I just know that in reality,
           free market is never allowed to distribute critical/essential
           resources anywhere in the world during severe shortage, rather
           it is food, water,  petro, or steel.
        \_ It happens everyday.  A house costs more than an apple because
           houses are harder to build and require more resources to do so
           than an apple.  A car costs more than an apple but less than a
           house for the same reason.  What is your question?
                 \- A1 steak sauce is $5. You can get a DVD player for $30.
                    I am not sure these things are really "a priori".
                    \_ Wrong comparison.  How about comparing the A1 to the
                       B&O DVD player instead, or the generic brand sauce to
                       the no-namo DVD player?  Either the more expensive one
                       took more work/more expensive ingredients, or they
                       successfully created an artificial demand (viz.
                       Godiva $5 chocolate covered strawberries.)  Either
                       way you've proven that the market sets prices.  -John
                       \- i am not sure what your point is but i didnt
                          really elabroate on mine. 10 years ago i think
                          somebody reflecting on "how difficult is it to
                          make steak sauce vs a dvd player" probably would
                          not have guessed the difference in price would
                          be under 6:1. so this idea of "difficulty" is
                          probably not meaningful outside the mkt price.
                          i am getting at the notion of price signals
                          in the hayakian sense. in fact i think you
                          should abandon the whole notion of "difficulty
                          to build" or resource use and just look at things
                          more abstractly ... this building/resource approach
                          might apply to mfgring [but really you have to
                          look at return on optimal mix of K,L since something
                          can become "easier" by investing more money] but
                          really doesnt apply to something like haircuts.
                          in the abstract setting you consider price,
                          willingness to pay, the difference being consumer
                          surplus, the marginal and average costs and then
                          thigns can get more complicated when you factor
                          in asymmetric information [like when the same
                          in assymetric information [like when the same
                          disposable contact lenses were sold at different
                          prices because they were labelled for diff #hrs].
                          here is an interesting question: movies clearly
                          cost $10m to $200m+ ... but why are all movie
                          tickets ~$10.
                          \_ Partha, It would be much easier to reply to you
                             if you used a spelling checker and didn't
                             ramble for 3 pages.  As it is, I don't assume
                             that you're interested.  -John
                          \_ Because the cost of a $200m is spread over a
                             much larger number of viewers.  A blockbuster
                             will make a billion $ in sales (us, domestic, and
                             dvd) vs a less expensive film which is also less
                             likely to be known and recover it's costs.  Also,
                             a big chunk of the "cost" of a $200m film is in
                             marketing and PR and often a $50MM/film hollywood
                             actor.  I suspect most films will do just as well
                             or as poorly without all that junk heaped on top
                             of the base production cost.  For example, the
                             Spiderman flick did super well with a no-name
                             actor (and now every moron in hollywood wants to
                             be a super hero) but Electra was a total bomb and
                             so was Dare Devil with well known actors who made
                             oodles more cash than the SM kid.  Ok, nvm, I'm
                             way off topic and now ranting about the stupidity
                             of hollywood.  I feel better now.  :-)
           \_ Why can't I afford to buy a house when I am a hardworking
              intelligent person, while some dot-com millionaire who got
              his money through sheer good luck instead of hard work lives
              in a mansion and has a hot girlfriend?
              \_ Because you live in the Bay area(or southern california).
              \_ Because you live in the Bay area (or southern california).
                 It really is that simple.  Anywhere else in the country
                 you'd be able to afford a home.  No, I don't know how much
                 you make, but in most of the country, buying a house with
                 a 25k/year salary is feasable.
              \_ You should've gone to medical school.
              \_ This is why I stopped being a coder and went to law
                 BTW, perhaps you should look down as well as up - there
                 are BILLIONS of people in this world who weren't lucky
                 enough to be born into a country where opportunity and
                 prosperity is everywhere and hardly anyone concerns
                 themselves about things like potable water and edible
                 food. One may easily ask what EXACTLY we did to deserve
                 our comfortable existence while everyone else continues
                 to struggle just to survive.
                 \_ Except many lawyers don't make all that much more than
                    a good s/w engineer. There might be more job security,
                    but maybe not. Medical school is your best bet.
                    \_ The problem w/ engineering is that there is no
                       long term job prospect - esp. in the valley.
                       Whatever your skill set is, it eventually goes
                       stale and some young kid is going to be better
                       at your job and mgmt can get rid of you and pay
                       him less to get the same work.
                       The practice of law is different, experience counts
                       and many practice areas never go stale b/c people
                       keep having the same problems over and over again.
                       BTW, the pay is better ~ 110-125K start.
                       \- also lawyers and doctors are smarter about
                          restricting competition.
                          \_ Are lawyers and doctors smarter about restricting
                             competition, or is less competent engineering
                             more acceptable (in the sense less subject to
                             remedy by the court system) than less competent
                             medical or legal service?  Not in the sense that
                             foreign engineers are less competent, but that
                             official certification of engineering training
                             has greater value.
                             \_ I think he means that you can't practice
                                as a doctor/lawyer unless you pass an exam
                                and its reasonably hard to pass that exam.
                                There is nothing comparable to that in eng.
                                Sure there is PE, but outside of Civil hardly
                                anyone cares.  In coding I'm not exactly
                                sure what difference an exam would make
                                b/c most of the really good coders I've met
                                were mathematicians, physicists, &c. rather
                                than EE/CS so an exam might actually keep
                                good people out.
                                Re less competent engineering - Just work
                                on any big project and you will find lots
                                of stuff that doesn't work or wasn't well
                                thought out, &c. The impact of something
                                like this is less unlike giving someone
                                the wrong medication or failing to file
                                a motion in a timely fashion, &c. At worst
                                you will lose some money.
                                    \- the practice is law is defined very
                                       broadly [see the infamous Nolo v.
                                       Texas case. I actually wonder if
                                       HARRIET THE JUDGE had a role in that]
                                       as are medical practices ... like
                                       you cannot to the best of my knowledge
                                       go to a dental hygenist for a tooth
                                       cleaning without a dentist involved
                                       or go to an optician for a an
                                       eye power measurement. however a non
                                       PE engineer can do lots of work. my
                                       parent never bothered to get a PE till
                                       maybe 15yrs after his phd and had
                                       billions of dollars of projects
                                       under his belt. in the 70s the AMA
                                       made certain certification test changes
                                       specfically targetted at incoming
                                       russian and indian doctors. i actually
                                       think there are a fair number of sort
                                       of iffy doctors. as they saying goes,
                                       "what do they call the guy who graduated
                                       at the bottom of his med school class?"
                                       "doctor". but yeah, probably fewer
                                       leem doctors because there arent that
                                       many med schools. there are a lot of
                                       clown lawyers and a huger number of
                                       leem law schools and some of them may
                                       have automatic bar pass ... i doubt
                                       a lot of the PDs in boise are very good.
                                       \_ no matter how many clown lawyers
                                       \_ not matter how many clown lawyers
                                          there are - and I agree there are
                                          lots and lots of clowns - there
                                          are clearly many more clown eng-
                                          ineers. It doesn't take much to
                                          get an engineering degree or to
                                          find a entry level engineering
                                          job. Maybe you don't meet these
                                          \_ I believe it is harder to get an
                                             engineering degree than a law
                                             \_ Law school seems far
                                                more difficult to me.
                                                In engineering you
                                                could get by w/o do-
                                                ing much (I managed
                                                3.0+ and I can barely
                                                \_ Did you take any humanities
                                                   classes? Anyone can get
                                                   a 3.0 at a CSU and get
                                                   into a mediocre law
                                                   school. Overall, I find
                                                   the average engineer to
                                                   be much smarter than
                                                   the average lawyer.
                                                   \- I was pretty much in
                                                      the middle of the pack
                                                      in upper div and grad
                                                      math/science classes
                                                      I took, but I was
                                                      definitely "order of
                                                      coif" the ConLaw,
                                                      coif"/summa in ConLaw,
                                                      I took (and at the dumb
                                                      end of a few seminars),
                                                      but I was definitely
                                                      "order of coif"/summa
                                                      cum laude in ConLaw,
                                                      Law&Econ, BusinessLaw,
                                                      Legal Philosophy, Legal
                                                      History and Law Seminars
                                                      I took.
                                                      I took, however these
                                                      were in academic depts,
                                                      not the law school for
                                                      the most part. (--not PP)
                                                      the most part. The people
                                                      in philosophy were prob
                                                      the smartest humanities
                                                      people. (--not PP)
                                                      people and a few smart
                                                      in econ. Pol Sci and Bus
                                                      school people were dumb
                                                      or apathetic usually.
                                                      (--not PP)
                                                      in my experience hum/
                                                      socsci grad students
                                                      in legit depts who are
                                                      legit admits are usually
                                                      sharper than most Boalt
                                                      students. (--not PP)
                                                   \_ I took a few, but
                                                      I mostly avoided
                                                      humanities b/c they
                                                      were a lot more work
                                                      than upper-division
                                                      engineering classes.
                                                      I'm guessing that if
                                                      someone like me can
                                                      make it through cal
                                                      engineering, it must
                                                      be *really* easy to
                                                      get an engineering
                                          jokers in the ivory tower, but
                                          I used to bump into them every
                                          day in the valley.
                                          \- hello, accroding to Bureau
                                             of Labor Statistics:
                                             compared to ~.9million people
                                             licensed to practice law.
                                             \_ Maybe I'm reading this
                                                wrong but according to
                                                there are about 700K
                                                lawyers, while there
                                                are about 1.5 million
                                                engineers (+ 675K soft-
                                                ware engineers:
                                                \- there are a lot of
                                                   "paraengineers" who may
                                                   be called engineers, while
                                                   there are paralegals who
                                                   are not lawyers. i have to
                                                   go to mcdonalds now.
                                       russian and indian doctors.
                                                   \_ so what? is your
                                                      determination of
                                                      what an engineer
                                                      is somehow more
                          \_ I read an article in WSJ that says lots of
                             companies are outsourcing jobs to lawyers in
                             India (eg. patent research).  It also says
                             that in India job status ranking is:
                              engineer > doctor > accoutant > lawyer
                             Is that true?
                             \_ Re outsourcing - what I've seen is
                                that some of the grunt work of writing
                                a patent and lots of the prior art
                                searching has been moved offshore,
                                but the real legal work (esp. in
                                litigation and patent counseling
                                remains here).
                                Re India job ranking - partially true.
                                Software engineers are at the top of
                                the totem pole, but regular engineers
                                aren't that highly regarded b/c there
                                are so many of them. Until about 6 or
                                7 yrs ago, the top job was IAS (Indian
                                Administrative Service - civil servants).
                                \_ Re: outsourcing, yes this is true. However,
                                   many lawyers think that the grunt work
                                   is where lots of good skills are
                                   learned. You don't start at the top.
                                   It's akin to outsourcing medical
                                   residents, but not practicing doctors.
                                   FWIW, lots of radiology is also being
                                   outsourced so medicine is not 100% safe
                                Re India job ranking - partially true.
                                Software engineers are at the top of
                                the totem pole, but regular engineers
                                aren't that highly regarded b/c there
                                are so many of them. Until about 6 or
                                7 yrs ago, the top job was IAS (Indian
                                Administrative Service - civil servants).
                                Being a doctor was an okay line of work
                                but it didn't really fetch you much more
                                money than anyone else.
                             medical or legal service?
                                \_ Re: outsourcing, yes this is true. However,
                                   many lawyers think that the grunt work
                                   is where lots of good skills are
                                   learned. You don't start at the top.
                                   It's akin to outsourcing medical
                                   residents, but not practicing doctors.
                                   FWIW, lots of radiology is also being
                                   outsourced so medicine is not 100% safe
                       \_ No, you are wrong regarding the valley, but you
                          have to work your way pretty far up the food chain
                          to realize that.
                          \_ I know lots of people who have been working
                             in the valley for 25+ yrs and I'm pretty
                             sure its true. Unless you move into mgmt
                             or something, there are no longer term
                             \_ Trust me, you're wrong.  The trick is not
                                "25+ years" but rather "pretty far up the
                                food chain".  There are engineers with 25+
                                years of experience who are mostly worthless,
                                just as there are engineers whose worth never
                                \_ Maybe so, but what I noticed was that
                                   high on the food chain positions mostly
                                   went to politically connected people
                                   rather than competent people (this is
                                   at a big company - maybe startups and
                                   vc firms are better).
                                   at a big company though).
                                   Anyway, making it high up the food
                                   chain wasn't really an option for
                                   me, so I chose something w/ more
                                   stability and similar (or slightly
                                   higher) pay.
                                   \_ I can drop names if you wish.  Are you
                                      at Sun?  The first generation of DE's
                                      were mostly impressive, and many are
                                      still technical.  I am friends with
                                      several (ehf, agn, and tvh--ehf is
                                      officially a vp, tho he's still technical
                                      and has no direct reports, i think; agn
                                      got burned and is back at cmu again, i
                                      hear; tvh is still retired, though his
                                      role was technical and not managerial at
                                      artx).  I am less sure of the current
                                      crop of Sun DE's.  I was more thinking
                                      of Gunning or Dobberpuhl when I answered
                                      your original claim.
                                      \_ I'm at Sun. I've met some current
                                      \_ I'm Sun. I've met some current
                                         DEs and I wasn't impressed - they
                                         were mostly political appointees.
                                         The major exception was Diffie,
                                         but he's Diffie and I'm just random
                                         My promotion from MTS to Staff
                                         The promotion from MTS to Staff
                                         Eng. also seemed to have a lot more
                                         to do w/ politics than skill, which
                                         was disheartening, esp. considering
                                         I was responsible for a moderately
                                         successful product that actually
                                         makes money vs. the people who were
                                         considering my promotion hadn't
                                         shipped an actual product in 5+ yrs.
                                         shipped a actual product in 5+ yrs.
                                         I've also gone through the ARC
                                         several times and the people were
                                         pretty useless but they certainly
                                         had job stability.
                                         I also worked w/ some of the orig.
                                         UNIX team at Bell Labs and saw
                                         them get forced out b/c of bs
                                         politics by complete tools.
                                            \_ This is probably because
                                               lots of the 1st generation
                                               were academics. They have
                                               given way (necessarily,
                                               IMO) to businessmen who are
                                               less special but possess a
                                               different set of skills.
                                         Maybe I'm just a little jaded.
                                         I figure the legal thing is a
                                         bit better b/c you can get a
                                         decent practice going and just
                                         stick to that.
                                         \_ The first generation of DE's were
                                            all pretty special, and even the
                                            senior staffs from that era were
                                            significantly smart.  Since then,
                                            I've been told DE's have beomce
                                            yet another promotion and are now
                                            much less special.
                                food chain".
                                \_ The people I know are at senior staff
                                   eng. or principal eng. (or mgmt equiv
                                   at director).  I guess if you can make
                                   DE or VP you can get some measure of
                                   job security but I don't know too many
                                   people who can get that far.
                                         politics by complete fools.
                                            \_ This is probably because
                                               lots of the 1st generation
                                               were academics. They have
                                               given way (necessarily,
                                               IMO) to businessmen who are
                                               less special but possess a
                                               different set of skills.
                       \_ The pay is marginally better. If you look at
                          salary averages there are a lot of lawyers not
                          making even $100K.
                          \_ Sure, but most lawyers aren't in technical
                             practice areas (patent, copyright). So few
                             lawyers can understand the science/technology
                             needed that the pay is much higher in those
                             \_ Well, this is like comparing the salary
                                of a surgeon to a pediatrician. Most
                                lawyers COULD NOT PRACTICE in a technical
                                area if they wanted to.
                    \_ The problem w/ engineering is that whatever your
                       skill set it eventually goes stale and some young
                       kid is going to be better at your job and mgmt can
                       get rid of you and pay him less to get the same
                       The practice of law is different - and if you don't
                       like one area of practice or that area starts to
                       dry up you can always go work for a real estate
                       or insurance firm.
                       \_ No, you are wrong.  But you have to work your way
                          pretty far up the food chain to realize that.
                                \_ sure, but I was responding to wages
                                   in comparison to being a coder - the
                                   income potential for a former coder
                                   lawyer in a tech practice is quite
           \_ If the price naturally rises, it will allow substitutes which
              were previously not feasible to enter the market.  So allowing
              the price to rise will potentially increase total supply.
              \- it depends why there is a shortage. govt intervention !=
                 govt should provide/subsidize it. govt repsonses can include
                 things like changing ip regime. if you want a generic frame-
                 work to think about this, do mircoecon. if you want to talk
                 about a spcific case, you should mention what it is. in the
                 real world it's often unclear what constitutes a "shortage"
                 [is there a shortage of diamonds?] just like it is often
                 unclear if a firm has market (monopoly) power. also a "supply
                 shock" is not the same as a persistent shortage, say in the
                 case of water or power. the govt probably should not intervene
                 in the RARE MAGIC CARD mkt. and finally it depends on the
                 govt. a bad govt can clearly make things worse. see e.g.
                 AK Sen's work on famines.
        \_ I agree there is a shortage of h07 42n ch1x in san jose.
        \_ I agree there is a shortage of h07 42n ch1x in the bay area.
           SOMETHING must be done!
           \_ free h07 4zn ch1x for 1337 c0d3r5! w00t!
              his money through sheer good luck lives in a mansion and has
              a hot girlfriend?
                 case of water or power.
2005/9/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:39770 Activity:low
9/20    dear motd travel agent,
        My company is sending me to India for a few weeks in November. I will
        be in Bangalore but I plan to take weekends and some extra time off
        to do sightseeing. I've never been to India before and would love to
        hear any advice. Specifically I'm wondering if it's realistic to
        expect to be able to use the weekends to do sightseeing by taking
        flights within the country to see specific areas or if that's too
        crazy / wasteful.
        \- if you ask on the wall, i may be able to give you some help. --psb
           \_ Can't you just respond? There's a reason why motd works better
              \- this is simpler to answer in a two way conversation.
                 otherwise you waste time on paths that may be subject
                 to early pruning.
                 \_ Hahahaha, "path" and "early pruning", this is so
                    CS talk and so funny in this context..
        \_ I can tell you that India is a huge country, and that flying
           between big cities isn't something that can easily be done in a
           weekend without you tiring yourself out after one trip. Try
           taking some extended time off (~5 days) to be able to spend
           some time once you're in the new city. Otherwise, with the
           hectic hell that is the airport in india, you will not want
           to fly again. BTW, go with Jet Air if you fly.
           \- india is a big country by rail but not by plane. when it
              comes to travel, india offers a very pure choice between
              time an money. in general i would recemmend try to do a
              longer trip maybe at the end of your trip rather than try
              to do weekend stuff. although a weekend trip to kerela might
              be doable. but you have to pick whether you want to see
              ancient monumuents, mountains, relax at a beach resort etc.
        \_ Air travel is not exactly easy in India. Unless you are prepared
           to deal with flight cancelation and getting stranded, I would
           recommend that you stick to either bus tours or trains from
           B'lore. A day/weekend trip that is pretty safe is to travel
           to Mysore. It is about a 2 hr train ride and there are many
           trains each day.
           Mysore has some nice palaces and temples that you can visit.
           There is also KRS dam w/ fountains and a garden that is nice.
           Mysore is pretty laid back and should be safe for english only
           tourists. If you have some extra cash, you might be able to
           stay at the Laitha Mahal Palace for a couple of days.
           I agree w/ psb that a weekend trip to Kerela might be doable,
           but seeing as the train ride is nearly 1 day from B'lore it
           will be cutting it close. You might be able to fly to Cochin
           but that will be expensive and you should probably have a
           backup plan b/c there are only like 1 or 2 flights from B'lore
           to Cochin every day and the flights get canceled frequently.
           \- i suspect locals can tell you a reliable way to get to
              cochin etc. in my experience india guide books are often
              out of date or giving non-optimal advice. there are a lot
              of non-intuitive things about india travel that are
              "common knowledge" among locals. for example if you want
              to get from Kolkata to Varanasi, it is vastly superior to
              take the Howrah - Mughal Sarai Junction train than to take
              the direct train to Varanasi Cantonment. etc. more in mail.
              \- according to my india rail guide the Kaveri Express
                 leaves B'lore around 7am gets to Mysore around 10ish
                 and leave Mysore around 6pm to return to B'lore by ~9,
                 so that may be a easy weekend, but locals can tell you if
                 it would be smarter to hire a car if you have 2-4 people
                 in your tour party. it is about 400mi to cochin and the
                 b'lore - kanyakumai express [sic] goes via ernakulam but
                 i am not sure if there is a better option. unless you
                 count the really big destinations in india, india travel
                 is often about the  characters you meet on the journey
                 and the "character building" that happens rather where
                 you are going. i've always been surpised to hear people
                 liked kolkata because there isnt much to see there and
                 i am not sure what is interesting about the place if you
                 dont speak bengali.
2005/7/26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38828 Activity:moderate
7/26    So rich Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese/Singapore single lonely dude all
        mail orders pretty Vietnamese girls, what about Vietnamese
        dude?? What the hell do they do? ;)
        \_ Mail-order from Laos?
        \_ Please don't lump Singapore with males chauvinist countries like
           USA, China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc.  Singapore doesn't have a sex
           ratio problem:
            at birth: 1.08 male(s)/female
            under 15 years: 1.07 male(s)/female
            15-64 years: 0.95 male(s)/female
            65 years and over: 0.79 male(s)/female
            total population: 0.96 male(s)/female (2005 est.)
           \_ Many boys die while growing up?
                \_ that's the same everywhere.  go check at:
                   http://www.indexmundi.com -> country -> people -> sex ratio
            \_ Men have higher mortality for a bunch of reasons, military
               service, more likely to be involved in violent crime, more
               likely to take stupid risks for fun, etc etc.
                \_ more likely to write on the motd
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38696 Activity:nil
7/18    http://CNN.com breaking news:
        Retired Gen. William Westmoreland, who commanded American troops in
        Vietnam -- the nation's longest conflict and the only war America lost
        -- died tonight at age 91. The silver-haired officer contended the
        United States did not lose the conflict in Southeast Asia. "It's more
        accurate to say our country did not fulfill its commitment to South
        Vietnam," he said.
2005/7/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38408 Activity:nil
7/4     STOP THE WAR IN VIETNAM!!! Stop destroying Vietnam villages!
        Power to the Weathermen!
2005/6/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38191 Activity:nil
6/19    The great management consultancy ripoff:
        \_ Sensationalism, to a degree.  My girlfriend works for one of these,
           and their billing is far more straightforward--each project is
           sold with x% fixed expenses on top.  The problems with a lot of
           management consultancy projects are far more subtle--things like
           failing to draw the line at helping a customer's management fuck
           up a company through short-sighted cost cutting, etc.  -John
           \_ Yeah, like moving jobs to India.  I heard that some management
              finally realize that it's not a great idea after all.
2005/5/14-16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:37683 Activity:high
5/14    This is just depressing stuff. Woman kicked like a soccer ball dies.
        \_ Tragic, but you'll note that her family offered to buy her a home
           in Chicago and she refused because of the weather. Yes,
           homeless is so much better.
           \_ The woman got stomped to death after living a life that would
              break just about anyone.  How about you just shut the hell up
              and stop trying to score some meaningless points.
              \_ I think you got trolled.
           \_ She has mental problems.  Give her a break.
                 \_ Trolling is also trying to score meaningless points.
           \_ She had mental problems.  Give her a break.  Besides, there is
              this line in the article: "Calls home became less frequent, and
              more desperate for money."  I doubt if her family was really so
              generous as to buy her a home.  Otherwise she wouldn't need to
              sound desperate for money.  Maybe her family only offered a small
              downpayment and she was supposed to handle the mortgage.  Some
              people like to exaggerate their goodness when there's no one to
              counter them.
              \_ You might be correct, but people are often reluctant to
                 give money without strings to crazy/drug addicted people.
                 This is not unreasonable.
           \_ well, in my country, they say that America is a great country
              with lots of opportunities IFF you're young and fit, because
              if you're not, there's no one (government) to take care of you.
              In this case, she got a physically debilitated and things seemed
              In this case, she got physically debilitated and things started
              to go downhill. In my country, this would never happen. But
              then again, my country isn't as big and powerful as America.
              \_ What's your country?  I was very surprised to see how many
                 homeless and despondent people I saw on the streets of
                 "functioning" places like Vancouver, London, Tokyo and
                 Frankfurt.  Even Sweden & Denmark have the pooor, broken
                 bastards that just fall through the cracks.  -John
              \_ Simple response - Move back. Seriously.
                 \_ I will gladly get out of your facsist imperialistic country
                    and move back when I've made enough money for retirement.
                    I'll reap social benefits of my country while enjoying
                    wealth that I earned when I was young and healthy. You
                    on the other hand are stuck with broken infrastructures
                    and national deficits. Anyways, this is what I love about
                    America. I get free education (scholarships), I make lots
                    of money with only 30% tax, and I get to take everything
                    from America back home. America IS a great country.
              \_ I was going to say "Yeah, but how much tax do you pay in your
                 country?"  But then I just remember that we pay lots of tax
                 here too.
                 \_ US is 15% for the poor, 40% for the richest. I am
                    personally paying 30%, and I wouldn't mind paying 50% if
                    1) my government would stop squandering money on pointless
                    war, propaganda, and Corporationally aligned agendas and
                    2) my government starts improving things INSIDE the U.S.,
                    like better (more organized) mass transit, better road
                    systems, better education, and infrastructures in general.
                    I personally prefer a country run by Denmark/Switzerland
                    like government with lots of accountability and a sense of
                    duty and ethics than see it run over by private
                    corporations like it is now. This whole talk on
                    privatization on every little thing is sickening me.
                    \_ I think the word you're looking for is
                       "accountability."  Be wary of using places like .dk and
                       .ch as examples--they have a lot of problems too, they
                       just don't show up as much because they're generally
                       on a smaller scale.  -John
                       \_ Tell us about their problems. Percentage-wise, is it
                          worst than U.S.? Do they also privatize social
                          security, electricity, water, and other things?
                          Is the quality of education level more "flattened"
                          thoughout the country, or is it very aymmetrical
                          like the U.S.?           -Curious liberal red-neck
                          \_ I dunno about Denmark, althoug they have a m4d
                             immigration backlash.  .ch privatizes most
                             utilities to heavily regulated companies.  The
                             problems are way different (mainly to do with
                             immigration/integration and heavy-handed
                             bureaucracy stifling business and innovation.)
                             You can't draw comparisons between ethnically and
                             culturally homogenous countries of < 20 million
                             and the US.  -John
2005/4/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:37109 Activity:kinda low
4/7     Just curious, when US sells lots of F-16s to India and Pakistan,
        how much profit is going back to the the people (which may or
        may not help in covering the deficit)? And how much of it goes
        to companies that make these weapons?
        \_ What do you mean by "back to the people"? I guess it goes to
           Lockheed Martin stockholders.
           \_ Don't forget that, at least in Pakistan's case, we probably
              lent them the cash in the first place.  -John
                \_ and in the case of Israel and Egypt, we gave them the
                   money.  Perhaps giving money directly to corporations
                   ain't so bad, at least it cuts out the middle man.
                   \_ Cuts out arming the unstable foreign ally of the
        \_ Actually, Pakistan already paid for the F-16s. The trade was
           put on hold due to problems with Kashmir.
2005/3/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:36912 Activity:moderate
3/27    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4387055.stm
        U.S. to sell fighter jets to both Pakistan and India. How much
        revenue will this generate and reduce the deficit? If it is a
        good business model, maybe we should export more...
        \_ US is smart.  Sell some F16s to Paki to annoy India, then
           tell them, why are you so pissed off?  we can sell you
           some too.
           \_ not just that, but sell them 2nd string fighter tech.
        \_ We sold semi-modern fighers to the Shah of Iran, but when he was
           overthrown we stopped providing any replacement parts and
           maintanance help.
           \_ I remember watching some cable tv show that also said some
              of the importanat electronic parts "mysteriously
              disappeared" from the fighters when the techs left the
        \_ An F16 will be sold at $50-60mil tops. Do the math. India has
           announced a tender to purchase a large quantity of light fighter
           jets to replace their pre-historic Mig-21s. So far, the
           makers of F16, Grippen, Mig-29, and Mirage F2000 have submitted
2005/2/13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:36161 Activity:nil
2/13    Why is our generation so fucking lazy?  What happened to this country?
        \_ The Internet
        \_ Why do things yourselves when you can exploit cheap labor in India?
2005/1/31 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35992 Activity:very high
1/31    Can anyone recommend a good book on the Vietnam war?  I'm realizing
        I don't actually know much about it.
        \_ "On Strategy", by Harry G. Summers Jr. for a purely military
           analysis of why we "lost".  -John
        \_ "In Retrospect : The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam"
           by the architect of it all, former Ford exec, Cal grad,w/zero combat
           exp. , and so-called "Whiz Kid" Robert Strange (REAL MN)McNamara
        \_ <deleted> - chicom troll pretender
           \_ deleted by real chicom troll
              \_ WTF? -the REAL chicom troll
                 \_ Will the real chicom troll please stand up....
                 \_ You are ALL lying! -ilyas
                    \_ [ sign my name for me at your peril, bitch. -- ilyas ]
                       \_ Or what?  You're going to nuke the motd....*again*?
                          \_ Well I can learn John's baseball bat method, if
                             you prefer. -- ilyas
                             \_ Smith and Wesson beats baseball bat more often
                                than not.
                                \_ I have a 1945 issue Remington-Rand M1911
                                   too.  -John
                                   \_ Yeah, and I've got a baseball bat also.
                                      So what?
                                      \_ 1942 issue Remington-Rand M1911 beats
                                         baseball bat more often than not.
                                         \_ No, goddamnit, no!  No recursion
                                            is allowed!  Eat my exit-condition,
                                \_ I d never buy Smith and Wesson, those
                                   wusses bowed down to the anti-gun lobby
                                   P.S.  My fans are starting to scare me.
                                     -- ilyas
                                   \_ Uhm, I don't think Smith and Wesson
                                      makes baseball bats, so that might be
                                   \_ Speaking of baseball bats and BULLDOZERS,
                                      is browning any good when it comes to
                                      pistols?  Hipower?
                                \_ Don't make my hero bust out with the
                                   BULLDOZER!!!  Yeah, that's right.  You're
                                   all quiet now.  -- ilyas #1 fan
                                   \_ RPG beats BULLDOZER!!! more often than
                                \_ Assault rifle beats RPG.
                 \_ OMGLOL
           \_ Simple, the US got more than what it bargained for. Got
              its ass kicked by the PRC army in Vietnam. Nixon had to
                \_ PRC army in Vietnam?  -John
                   \_ Yes, one of my uncle actually fought in Vietnam.
                      It wasn't like the Korean war where the PRC dumped
                      millions of soldiers in it, but it's also more than
                      just weapon supplies. -someone from mainland
                      \_ are you sure your uncle wasn't fighting in
                         the sino-vietnamese war which happened after
                         the americans got kicked out of vietnam?
                         \_ Oh, come on.  Read a fucking history book.
                            Yes, there were PRC soldiers fighting
                            Americans in Vietnam.
                            \_ Maybe a couple, but considering that the PRVN
                               was primarily Soviet-aligned, and the USSR and
                               ChiComs weren't getting along to well (not to
                               mention long-festering border incidents which
                               ended up as a full-on war in the late 1970s)
                               the whole thing about "PRC KICK YANKEE GI OUT
                               VIETNAM!" is pretty silly, especially given
                               that the US didn't lose a single decently
                               sized conventional engagement.  -John
              abandon Taiwan and go to China to establish diplomatic
              relationship with the PRC precisely because of the
              Vietnam War, because they come to realize during later
              stages of the war that one of their main base has been
              completely surrounded by the PRC army, despite their day
              and night of non stop bombing in the surrounding area
              (which you can find references to in the history channel
              but they stop short of telling you what happens
              afterwards), they've come to realize they cannot prevent
              the inevitable and will be overrun. The loss of life
              will be unacceptable to the US public. So Nixon sends
              you know who secretly to the PRC to negotiate. In the
              end the PRC withdraw its forces and the US pulled out,
              leaving everything behind including their beloved K9
              dogs. To those who think the US pulled out because of
              public pressure, its all bullshit, but surely sounds
              better than telling the public, look, if we sacrifice
              Taiwan, we will have XXX less body bags to bring home.
                \_ Your history is hilarious.  You should write a book.  -John
              \_ you got your history all backwards and confused.
                 we chicom didn't fight in vietnam.  if we did, you
                 wouldn't have lasted that long.  it's only our little
                 sister the vietcong fighting there.  stop imagining
                 things.                - real chicom troll
                 \_ e.g. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/vietnam.htm
                    In short: both trollers and John are wrong.  China did
                    send a sizable number of soldiers (>~ one army division)
                    and though it wasn't convered extensively by the media, it
                    was never even a secret.  It didn't kicked US ass nor was
                    it ever intended to.  It's role is somewhat similar to US'
                    role in SK today: to convincine US not to attack with
                    ground force as it did in Korea.  Also worth noting: US
                    built SV into the world's 4th largest AF and army, and 5th
                    largest navy.  It is rather moot to say you never lost a
                    single conventional engagement.  That Austrian dude had the
                    world finest killing machines and still lost in the end.
                    \_ Thank you, good reading.
        \_ Watch "Fog of War" on DVD.  It's a very interesting one-on-one
           interview with the guy who was SecDef at the time.
           \- you might want to specify what you are looking for ... there
              are books by military people, journalists, photographers,
              political scientists/historians, intelligence people, and
              famous fictional works like The Ugly American or The Quiet
              American. --psb
                \_ Is _The Quiet American_ as good as _The Ugly American_ ?
                   \_ The book is nice, the movie's pretty but sort of
                      Graham Green Lite.
        \_ We Were Soldiers Once...And Young
2005/1/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35760 Activity:moderate
1/17    Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the hearts of the
        Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct.
        The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their
        enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so
        carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not
        realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological
        and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the
        image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of
        violence and militarism. -MLK
        \_When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village
          and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able
          to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and
          white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will
          be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro
          spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty,
          we are free at last!"
          And yes, they are free at last.
        \_ No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it
           by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.  -GPJ
        \_ MLK was a marxist.. you didn't know this?  I wonder if he ever
           talked to any of the Cambodians or Viet boat people?
           \_ Cambodians?  Luckily the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and
              unseated the US and China supported Khmer Rouge from
              power.  Otherwise, the killing fields would be even
              power.  Otherwise, the killing fields would've been even
              \_ Yeah, luckily Cambodia was invaded by a rival communist
                 power to stop an oppressive government... Hmmm, doesn't
                 this somehow sound vaguely familiar?
                 \_ doesn't sound familiar at all.  do elaborate.
           \_ MLK was on FBI's top 10 most wanted list as well.  From
              US government's track record (black panther), i am still
              wondering who killed MLK.
           \_ MLK was on FBI's top 10 most wanted list as well.  From
              US government's track record (black panther), i am still
              wondering who killed MLK.
2004/12/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35481 Activity:nil
12/29   What was the time lag between when things started getting fucked up
        in Indonesia vs. Sri Lanka / India?  I would think news should
        travel pretty damn fast after 40K+ died in Indonesia.  I don't think
        this aspect has been covered at all (for some reason news only seems
        to be covering lack of ocean sensors - but you don't need ocean
        sensors to warn Sri Lanka / India once you've established thousands
        dying in Indonesia).
        \_ I agree news should have spread, but no one thought it was 40+
           thousand dead until days after.
           \_ You don't need 40K+ dying to tell the other countries.
              All you need are tsunamis hitting the shore and it being covered
              on TV as a news bulletin in Indonesia as well as other countries.
        \_ Umm... spread how?  If they didn't get the warning from the US
           through their governments, how would they get it from the
           people who were actually being hit by the tsunami?  Collective
           \_ Warnings about potential tsunamis since none have hit yet
              != Warnings about tsunamis that have already hit Indonesia
                 that could also hit other countries
              Let's say there is a 2 hour lag time between tsunamis hitting
              Indonesia vs. Sri Lanka / India.  This assumes 500 mph waves.
              Personally, I think it should take 30 minutes for this to hit
              radio + TV + Internet in Sri Lanka / India, 30 minutes more
              for people to run out to the coasts and say get the fuck away,
              with 1 hour of buffer time.
              I think lots of senior people fucked up and sat on the news
              for two or more hours.
              \_ I think you seriously underestimate what it means when a
                 very poor nation/area lacks infrastructure to deal with
                 this sort of crisis, both in terms of transmitting
                 information (esp after what little infrastructure just got
                 swept away by a tsunami) and in terms of receiving,
                 processing, disseminating, and then finally reacting.  This
                 is exacerbated when this lack of ability to react is coupled
                 with complacency and unpreparedness.  If the US had only 2
                 hours of warning before a large tsunami hit the eastern
                 seaboard, the loss of life would be staggering.
                 \_ Well, the least I want to suggest is that politicians
                    and other people in charge are blaming a lack of ocean
                    sensors, vs. assuming responsibility for not spreading
                    the news to local media.  How much does it take to say:
                    "Hey, play this on TV.  Tidal waves are hitting Indonesia.
                    It might hit us."  I think you overestimate the difficulty
                    of this.  You and a lot of people, too, which is why it is
                    not being covered.
                    \_ No, I don't overestimate the difficulty of making a
                       broadcast of this sort.  No need to be snippy.
                       \_ If you think I'm being snippy, perhaps you shouldn't
                          use the same phrasing.
                    \_ You must be the "why don't they just tread water for a
                       little while" guy, huh?
                    \_ Didn't this happen at 6/7 am local time? How many people
                        in those impoverished, remote villages would be
                        watching TV at that time? How many actually have
                       \_ Then why don't I see news reports talking about
                          what you're talking about?  All I see are "no ocean
                          sensors", not "no TVs / radios, everyone was asleep
2004/11/22-23 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:35025 Activity:low
11/22   The Hmong People in the U.S.
        \_ Hmong people Among people.
        \_ So, um, I'm curious. Does the rice man wear glasses? Did he
           wear glasses when he threw the ilyas-like tantrum?
           \_ He ruined hunting for everybody!
              \_ He has ruined the reputation of the Hmong people
                 for generations to come.
              \_ Maybe he just descided to hunt the most dangerous game...
        \_ I guess McVeigh was the U.S. people in teh U.S.
2004/11/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:34986 Activity:very high
11/19   How I Began to Teach About the Vietnam War
        \_ I love free republic guy.  Do you have a family?
           would you like to come over for Thanksgiving? - danh
           \_ what do you think of the article?
                \_ It is well-written, balanced, historically accurate, and
                   insightful.  It does not do the author justice to have
                   his article reproduced among the steaming ill-informed
                   monkey-shitpile that is http://freerepublic.com  -John
                   \_ So what kind of monkey-shitpile is soda wall, John?
                \_ article was fine.  I do not agree that the US had
                   any clear way of "winning".  losing over 1/10 of their
                   population to US explosives didn't phase the Vietnamese
                   at all while they were defending their home turf. - danh
                   \_ No, no, no! You are wrong. The Nixon bombings were
                      effective and broke the stalemate at the Paris
                      Peace talks. If Watergate had not happened we may
                      still have had an effective cease fire. In addition,
                      the Tet offense was a disaster for the North, and they
                      didn't try an invasion like that again for many years.
                      It's a common myth that the VC were invincible. They
                      were not. We were constantly beating them, it's just
                      that we should've invaded the north. We couldn't because
                      of China. The U.S. didn't lose Vietnam, they abandoned it.
                \_ The article was fundamentally flawed, in that it glossed
                   over the fact that the United States *did* support
                   illegitimate and unpopular regimes after the overthrow
                   of Diem.
                   \_ All of you are missing his fundumental thesis.  ie "It
                      was a good idea, but we &*%)ed it up."  All of you saying
                      "Yeah, but we did this wrong" should be agreeing with
                      him.  Also, by extension, we shouldn't not help anyone
                      else just because we boned it up once.
                      \_ It was a bad idea, AND we $*%)ed it up.
                         See post below for why.
                         \_ I assume you mean the domino theory one?  True, the
                            domino theory turned out to be incorrect, but I
                            don't think that made Vietnam a bad idea.  Korea
                            didn't turn out perfect either, but I'm dang glad
                            we protected SK.
                            \_ Bad idea, good idea.  Let's call it a mistake.
                               Also, Vietnam != Korea.
                               U.S. participation in Korea, Gulf War 1, WW2
                               were not mistakes.
                       \_ No, his fundamental thesis was that he had been
                          taught three incorrect things by the anti-war
                          movement: 1) that the gov't of SV was illegitimate,
                          2) that we had no legitimate reason for being in
                          Vietnam and 3) that we couldn't have won anyway.
                          "These are that there was never a legitimate
                          non-communist government in Saigon, that the
                          U.S. had no legitimate reason to be involved in
                          Vietnamese affairs, and that the U.S. could
                          not have won the war under any circumstances."
                          The article is bad because 1 and 3 are correct, imo,
                          and no serious person held #2. I am sure you can
                          find a few Communists and the like who believed
                          #2, but most Americans, even anti-war Americans,
                          believed that the US had a commitment to fight
                          Communism. They just didn't think Vietnam was
                          the right place to do it and they didn't like
                          the way we fought it. The whole line of argument
                          of his that Dinh was legitimate is a red herring,
                          since most of our support came after he was
                          deposed and we supported the coup that deposed
                          since most of our support for the wary came after he
                          was deposed and we supported the coup that deposed
                          him to boot!
                          \_ Ever hear of SEATO?  Yea but you are right
                             NATO was a stupid idea too.
        \_ The three "axioms" he mentioned I don't think are that important.
           The key issue is the dominoes did not fall after we lost the
           Vietnam War and expended significant national resources in doing so.
           \_ Wrong, one significant domino did fall. Ever heard of Cambodia?
        \_ American ideals and beliefs are one thing, but how many times
           have US allowed its selfish self-interest to take precedence over
           these.  People around the world like democracy, freedom, rule of
           law, etc., but they don't like US trying to bully other countries
           for its selfish goals and interests.  Just because US, as a
           country, is one of the better representatives of these ideas, does
           not mean its use of power abroad is just or in support of these
           ideals.  To assume so is the biggest hole in the argument the
           author put forth.
           \_ Apparently you need to get yourself a copy of "Weatlh of Nations"
              and read it from cover to cover. It's amazing what a little
              education can do for even the weakest of minds... But I doubt
              you will so here's the capsule. A) All countries are after
              their own self interest, that's just how it works. B) Having
              a country like America look after its own self interest in the
              world is not merely justified, it's necessary for not only
              the continuation of America but life as we know it. C) If
              it wasn't America it would be China or Russia. I know a
              LOT of people who are MUCH happier with America at the reigns
              rather than China or Russia. D) If people REALLY dislike
              America so much why is everyone always trying to get in, yet
              hardly anyone ever leaves? And if you think that American policy
              is bad, just take a look at how other colonial powers treated
              their subordinates. The Americans, by contrast, have been
              exceedingly gracious. Yes, we are the Romans of our era, and
              being as such we will need to recognize that we are indeed an
              august nation and have certain responsibilities that others
              do not have.
              \_ "We are better than China and Russia.  Hence you should
                  support us in all that we do!"  What a stupid logic.
                 \_ America is not perfect, but it sure beats any and
                    all alternatives thus far conceived by mankind.
2004/11/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:34970 Activity:insanely high
11/18   The Vietnam War Crimes You Never Heard Of:
        http://www.vietnamwar.com/MyLai.htm (The Charlie Company)
        \_ I can only assume you mean "I'm so out of touch, I've never
           heard of all these Vietnam War crimes."  Since I'm pretty sure
           the rest of the civilized world has heard of them before. Pver
           and over, in fact.
2004/11/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:34817 Activity:nil
11/10   When Vietnam vets came home (Soldiers being spit on is
        just an urban myth)
2004/11/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:34663 Activity:kinda low
11/4    Why aren't we more worried about Vladimir Putin?  He's essentially
        made himself a dictator, Russia has the economy and the stability
        of a 3rd world country, and he controls 10,000 ICBMs, most of which
        are armed with MIRVs.  This scares me.  Someone convince me that
        I shouldn't be scared.
        \_ Why would he attack us?  No motive, no crime.
           \_ The instability and economic wretchedness, combined with
              authoritarianism and tons of nuclear weapons, doesn't seem
              dangerous to you?  Do you find Pakistan warm and cuddly too?
              \_ I never said I found Russia "warm and cuddly," but if you
                 can't see a difference between Russia and Pakistan, you
                 need to get out of CA for a bit.
        \_ I think many people are worried about him... its just that the
           powers that be have their hands tied in terms of criticism
           since he is using the same theatrics to justify his power grab
           that they are.
        \_ About Russian economy. I have lived there as well as in a real
           third-world country and I can tell you that people in Russia are far
           far better off than in a third world conutry, even the pension age
           people who depend on govt pensions. Their current per-capita GDP is
           about $9000/year in real terms. While this might not sound much,
           remember that most Russians own their housing. But you're right
           to be worried about Putin. I am worried about his authoritarian
           tendencies too, though I can sort of understand why he is so popular
           even right now. Russia has tried to liberalized its economy
           and politics too fast and chaos ensued in the early 90s, probably
           thanks to the incompetent policy of this drunkard Yeltsin and
           his cronies who were running the country behind his back. So when
           the Russians were choosing between Putin and the liberal democrats
           the last time, for them, it was like choosing between an
           authoritarian Putin who credibly promisses to return stability
           and the greatness to Russia or Yeltsin era chaos. They picked
           the former and he's obviously taking advantage of their goowill..
        \_ http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/11/01/011.html
           It's only an excerpt, but if this doesn't get your bloodpressure
           up, I don't know what will.
2004/9/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:33562 Activity:very high
9/16    http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol48no1/article06.html
        From cryptogram, ex-CIA on interrogation
        \_ Cool article, thanks for sharing.  -John
        \_ Excellent, well written, makes some very good points. Thank you.
           \_ Jeez, I'm beaming like I wrote it myself. -op
        \_ good article.  I think this article, as well as the September 1st
           school incident in Russia brought a bigger issue:  What is a
           "terrorist?"  Terrorist are defined by the tactic they use, not
           ideology they believe in.  While this is relatively clear to most
           people in case of Vietnamese nationalist and Chechen rebel, I
           don't think USA has learn that our "terrorist enemy" are the result
           of our past 40 years of foreign policy in the middle east, from
           religious support of creation of Israel at the expense of Palestine,
           to overthrown of popular government in Iran.  Without drastic
           change in our foreign policy, we will not able to end the reluntless
           attack from Islamic extremist.       kngharv
           \_ Terrorists will attack us regardless of our foreign policy.
              They don't like the US for what it is -- a free and prosperous
              place not following Sharia law.  If you want to make an
              argument for a change in US foreign policy, using islamic
              terrorists is not a good way to go. -- ilyas
              \_ You're saying they hate us because they hate our freedom?
                 Utter nonsense.  Our freedom and prosperity might get some
                 two-bit mullah worked up, maybe he'll convince some young,
                 impressionable losers to do a minor attack; but convincing
                 a man to orphan his children, a normal young guy to give up
                 his chance with that pretty girl at the market takes a lot
                 more than "this old book says that freedom is bad".  Even the
                 WTC bombers were normal men once.  You can't just call them
                 crazy without wondering what got them there.
                 \_ ob40Virgins
                    \_ there was an interesting Kristof column recently which
                       said  that some modern scholars think this is a mis-
                       translation, and that they really get white grapes,
                       not virgins.
                    \_ http://www.angelfire.com/folk/patriotscorner/72Virginians.html
                 \_ They hate the products of our freedom.  They are envious
                    of our obvious prosperity, they are made insecure by the
                    inroads our "culture" makes into theirs (viz. blue jeans
                    and rock & roll helping bring down the Soviet Union), they
                    (in the case of the islamists) have issues with our lack
                    of restrictions on women, music, clothing, whatever, and
                    to some degree they feel left behind by economic
                    development.  Consider that the "Arab world" has never
                    undergone a sweeping renaissance or an enlightenment or
                    an industrial revolution, combined with the fact that many
                    countries spawning "terror" have a tremendous percentage
                    of unemployed youth, susceptible to demagoguery.  So yes,
                    they hate our freedom.  -John
                    \_ If it wasn't for GWB, they would love our blue jeans and
                       music and McDonald's and our freedom for women!  GWB has
                       ruined American credibility around the world for
                 \_ Well, they don't say 'freedom is bad.'  To them following
                    Sharia is freedom, while our kind of freedom is demonic
                    depravity and corruption.  We call this 'extremism,' but
                    this was a normal train of thought a couple of hundred
                    years ago in Europe.  They are not exactly crazy in a sense
                    of being mentally ill, they are just experiencing an
                    'outside context problem' (Ian Banks term), and are living
                    in a world we can't understand very well.  I am not
                    excusing what they do -- they are of course wrong, and
                    are doing evil.  -- ilyas
                    \_ (Responding to John and ilyas)
                       Who are "they"?  If "blue jeans and rock & roll"
                       brought down the Soviet Union, why don't we send
                       these instead of an invasion force?  And if it's
                       Islamic fundamentalism we are fighting, why did
                       we invade Iraq, one of the more secular middle
                       eastern states.  And why are we sending billions
                       of dollars to some of the most fundamentalist
                       countries like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait?  Perhaps
                       nationalism and belief in self determination
                       have more to do with the resistance we faced in
                       Vietnam and are facing in Iraq than you would like
                       to believe?  Did the Vietnamese conduct any
                       terrorist act on us after kicking us out?
                       \_ Because Soviet Union wasn't stuck in a feudal
                          mentality.  You can't expect 'blue jeans' to work
                          if it's unclear to someone that jeans are a good
                          thing.  A typical russian wasn't fooled by the
                          propaganda.  -- ilyas
                          propaganda.  As for the Vietnamese, they have no
                          fundamental ideological problem with the West,
                          whereas the muslims do. -- ilyas
                       \_ Nice try to transition to Vietnam=Iraq but no dice.
                          Please provide a URL for us *sending billions of
                          dollars* to Suadi Arabia and Kuwait.  We won
                          militarily in Vietnam, despite being the most
                          stupidly fought war in history.  We lost Vietnam
                          at home with people like Jane Fonda and John Kerry
                          telling the American soldiers and people lies about
                          our troops and the war.  If self determination is
                          the cause of resistence in Iraq then why are there
                          foreign fighters there?  Why didn't these self-
                          determined people do anything at all for themselves
                          during Hussein's reign of death?
                          \_ Lies?  Are you denying that soldiers didn't kill
                             civilians and didn't commit atrocities?
                          \_ They tried after the '91 war after Bush I promised
                             support but then basically helped Saddam crush
                             the insurgents. Have you ever led a military
                             revolt? I'm sure if they had you around Saddam
                             would have been toast. Moron.
                          \_ The Vietnamese had been fighting against foreign
                             colonizers for over 100 years, 400 if you count
                             periodic Chinese incursions. We would never have
                             "won" Vietnam, though we could still have troops
                             fighting and dying there, if we really had the
                             will. It might even be down to 1000/yr by now.
                             Why would we possibly want to do that???
                 \_ ob40Virgins
                    \_ there was an interesting Kristof column recently which
                       said  that some modern scholars think this is a mis-
                       translation, and that they really get white grapes,
                       not virgins.
                    \_ http://www.angelfire.com/folk/patriotscorner/72Virginians.html
           \_ Terrorists kill civilians (on purpose).
              \_ But I thought that's why we went to iraq.  So they could kill
                 our soldiers instead of our civilians...
                 \_ Yeah, Iraq is a big honeypot. People complain about the
                    dead soldiers but if we hadn't gone there we'd have
                    HUNDREDS of thousands of civilian deaths! If the stream
                    of terrorists starts to trickle out, we should bomb some
                    villages in Syria and other likely places to flush out
                    more terrorists, like fleas from beating a rug. Eventually
                    the terrorists will run out and we can go home!
                    \_ You forgot to capitalize "thousands"
                       Please tell me you're continuing the sarcasm and don't
                       actually believe this...
              \_ So the Commander of The Allied bombing campaign in Europe
                 during WWII was a terrorist? Dresden was known to be full
                 of civilians.
                 of civilians and had no legitimate military value. The
                 firebombing was undertaken to break the "will" of the
                 Germans to fight. Is that terrorism in your book?
                 \_ If you kill civilians on purpose as a military leader
                    and with a strategic purpose in mind, people start saying
                    you are a war criminal.  But it sticks less if you're on
                    the winning side and the winning side is a democracy.
                    Terrorists do it from a position of little power.
                    War criminals do it from a position of great power.
                    It's similar to "why is it racist when white people make
                    fun of black people, but not so in reverse?"
                 \_ Terrorism performed by national militaries isn't
                    called terrorism. It is terrorism in fact though, and
                    so was Hiroshima. There's no getting around it.
                    (the key is deliberate vs. accidental civilian killing).
                    \_ The U.S. dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima, killing
                       80,000 civilians outright, to end the war early.
                       This is a war crime under the current accepted
                       Because it ended the war early, and may have saved
                       hundreds of thousands of American lives, and because
                       Japan had attacked first -- many would argue it wasn't
                       a war crime, or at least the definition should be
                       refined so it excludes the 80,000 dead innocents in
                       Hiroshima being a war crime.
                       \_ Victor writes the history. Duh!
2004/9/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:33432 Activity:high
9/9     Why is Pakistan so nice to the US? What are we giving them? Funding?
        Weapons? Intelligence?
        \_ they tried to kill the general
           \_ only after he said he was the Dubya's best friend
        \_ the promise of destruction
        \_ money.  without our money, their economy would collapse
           \_ I thought the deal was money for "counter-terror" which goes to
              buying toys for their army.
        \_ the only way to travel that remote countryside is with
           a thousand troops
           \_ Don't squish other people's posts!
              \_ The only way to post on the motd is with a thousand
        \_ Because they are a bunch of cowards and doesn't have true
           democracy. Isn't it great that what we do are only supported
           by our puppet government or countries that doesn't have true
        \_ Money and legitamacy.
        \_ El Presidente de Pakistan sided with the U.S. post-9/11.  The threat
           then was you were with us or against us.  He did the right thing.
           That was when the U.S. had credibility.
           That was when the U.S. had credibility and also wasn't overextended.
           \_ You never hear about the white house complaining that Pakistan
              needs to be more democratic and that it was run by a dictator.
              So the US supports dictator, as long as they are with you.
              \_ We could have just told Stalin to go fuck himself during WW2.
        \_ Geopolitics. They need allies vs. India.
2004/8/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33028 Activity:nil
8/19    Pakistan does it right:  Torture is all these killers deserve!
2004/8/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:32982 Activity:very high
8/17    Its nearly quarter to 11:00 and no Obsessive SwiftBoat Lunatic yet.
        Where are you OSL?!
        \_ He's on a conference call getting the new talking points for this
        \_ For your viewing pleasure, the cspan footage of the debate between
           John Kerry and John O'Neill on the Dick Cavett show in 1971:
           \_ Thank you OSL!
              \_ Don't know if I'm actually OSL, but I'd hate to disappoint.
           \_ When we pulled out of Vietnam, the dominoes never fell, which
              was our original reason for going there.
              \_ That could also mean that Vietnam was a success.
        \_ Are you any different if you're doing as much deleting as he is
           posting?  Can we call you Obsessive SwiftBoat Censor Lunatic?
           \_ I'm not censoring anything... If people would stop censoring
              that idiot, maybe he would give up the ghost - I get the feeling
              he's one of those folks that thrives on any sort of attention,
              negative or positive.
              \_ The incorrect assumption that it's only one person could lead
                 you to a false conclusion like this.
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:32643 Activity:insanely high
8/2     Very interesting article.  It is now clear that we deliberately
        went to Vietnam by provoking the North Vietnamese:
        http://tinyurl.com/4t7kk                        (NPR)
        Listen to the full analysis.
        This is a far cry from the "Communist aggression" we've portraited
        for generations.
        \_ Old news, nothing new to see here. If you were actually alive
           during the 'Nam war you would've realized this. Time you went
           back to 20th Century American History 101.
        \_ Just like we provoked them in '75, when they
           subsequently slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Cambodians
           and millions deserted on rafts.  You're a complete fool;
           a perfect Kerry voter.
           \_ Uhm, the Khmer Rouge/Vietnam war was at best a muddled affair.
              Don't know which was worse, Pol Pot killing 2 million or
              the Vietnamese coming in and slaughtering the Pol Pot regime.
              It's just a nasty business either way and just underscores
              how bad communism really was.
              \_ Pol Pot was a byproduct of France and the Communist
                 Vietnamese and Chinese
           a perfect Kerry voter.
        \_ Here's another newsflash, LBJ was a DEMOCRAT!  Oh my golly!
        \_ We thought it was Communism spread by the Soviet Union, but
           actually it was just a nationalist movement, which we would have
           not had a problem with.  Oops!
           \_ We would not have had a problem with, except that we were
              there in the first place backing up the French, who felt
              they needed to reassert their roles as colonialists after
              WWII.  If he had listened to Ho Chi Min and told France to
              stuff it's colonialism where the sun doesn't shine earlier,
              we could have saved everyone a lot of trouble.
              \_ Given that France has a tradition of anti-Americanism, why
                 on earth did we try to save its ass in indochine?
                 \_ Anti-Americanism?! The country that gave us the Statue
                    of Liberty and helped us defeat the British?
                    \_ Wrong France. Try again.  Read a history book.
                       \_ Which part are you disputing, idiot?
                          \_ Read a history book, you ignorant slut.  I
                             dispute your historical comments.  All of them.
                             Know wtf you're talking about before calling
                             someone an idiot.  Go check the dates for the
                             French Revolution.  Idiot, indeed.
                             \_ You dispute that France gave the Statue of
                                Liberty to the US? Which country was
                                France imitating with the revolution? Moron.
                 \_ We wanted them to join NATO.
                 \_ Live and learn.  Frenchies get pretty friendly when
                    they're getting their butt's kicked by Germans.
              \_ Actually 2/3 of Vietnam voted, yes voted, in an
                 election to remain aligned with France.  This was an
                 unsatisfactory result for Ho Chi Min hence the civil
                 war.  What he could not obtain by election was taken
                 by force.
                 \_ That's a new one to me.  Link?
           \_ It was not 'nationalist' movement.  Ho Chi Min and the
              other cadre were laways tried and true Communists, even
              during WWII.  The common foot soldier may have thought
              he was fighting for freedom, but as soon as the war
              was over he found out otherwise (as is always the case
              with these Communist insurrections).  Of course anyone
              who then caused trouble was summarily shot.
              \_ "Want to do what I say, and you're free to do what you
              \_ While they were communists, my contention is that it was
                 nationalism that is what actually mattered.  They were not
                 toadies of the Soviet Union.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:31116 Activity:very high
7/1     If democracy is so great, why are sodans still piss poor?  Where the
        MAJORITY does not get represented, but rather the few elite
        and rich gets to control pretty much everything and the others
        are treated as 2nd, 3rd, 4th class citizen? Explain that to
        me. Most of the old officers you see on soda are from the
        higher class, so they are very different from your average
        user. What they need is a visionary leader that would
        abandon their class system, but under 'democracy', they never
        will. Some users will always be low class citizen, like
        \_ You're right, democracy is a big sham. The People must rule,
           although since we're too stupid our Great Leader will rule for us,
           in his magnificent benevolence! All hail the Great People's Leader!
           All dissidents are evil imperialist lackeys, and must be reported to
           your local People's Information Bureau at once!
        \_ America's a republic, not a pure democracy.  Majority rule is not
           always a good thing.
        \_ I know nothing about India, but I will point out that no one
           ever claimed democracy was perfect, it's just the best thing
           we've come up with so far.  Of course the perfect government
           would be a single person who always makes the right descisions.
           If you can find any such person, I will be happy to live under
           \_ see. Kingdom of God where God is King
           \_ We don't have the tech for a perfect society yet, even with
              perfect decisions.  Right now rough edges are unavoidable, maybe
              this will change in a few hundred years. -- ilyas
              \_ Yeah, we'll write a computer program to rule us all. Like in
                 the game Deus Ex.
                 \_ That's not the problem.  The problem is scarcity and
                    insufficient understanding of genetics and aging.  Those
                    problems will eventually go away, and that is what will
                    transform society, I think. -- ilyas
                    \_ There's always scarcity of land, even if you somehow
                       get free energy. This is worse if genetics and aging are
                       solved. The western oil-economies are comparitively
                       pretty rich today... I wonder what transformation you
                       expect to see?
                       \_ I heard a projection that the world's population will
                          stabilize at 11 bil.  Most advanced countries today
                          are either breaking even or their population is
                          declining (with the notable exception of the US, due
                          to immigration and other 'exceptionalist' issues).
                          We are not going to run out of land, that's 19th
                          century Malthusian thought.  The 'transformation'
                          I am talking about will have to do with the
                          elimination of most current political issues once
                          certain kinds of economic scarcities go away.  Our
                          society is already very different because information
                          can be copied at virtually no cost in time or
                          money. -- ilyas
                          \_ Well, I don't think birthrates can easily be
                             predicted, and some land is likely to always be
                             more desirable than others. Western families
                             have to work to maintain their lifestyle and don't
                             have much time.
                 \_ You jest, but I think Ilya would actually suggest something
                    along those lines - although I think his term was
                    "benign dictator."
                    \_ But we already have the Illuminati!
        \_ You don't seem to know much about India or Indian politics.
           Most of the people in power today are members of the lowest
           castes. Due to "enlightened" social policy (quota, &c.) most
           high paying powerful government jobs are available only to
           members of the lowest castes. These people, having little
           or no social conscience, do little to help their fellow man,
           prefering instead to shuttle public resources into their
           own private domains.
           own private domains. Its not that democracy doesn't work,
           it is that it does. India is full of low caste uneducated
           people and these are the same people who are ruling the
           FYI, the elite of Indian society, the brahmins (about 1-2% of
           the population), were usually among the poorest of all (for
           various religious reasons). The idea that somehow they
           systematically oppressed and continue to oppress the
           lower classes/castes is ridiculous. In fact, most brahmins
           leave India because they find that the social setup makes
           it next to impossible for them to succeed.
           The only way in which I find that one may blame brahmins
           for the woes of India, is this: Nehru was a brahmin. He
           was stupid enough to implement a command economy instead
           of a open and free market. This ruined India for decades.
           Thus if one man represents his caste, it is possible to
           say that the brahmins ruined India.
               \-mr. anon above: just out of curiosity can you
                 tell me where you "learned" all of this?
                 it is so far off, it's not worth correcting
                 but i am curious where it came from. --psb
                        \_ My parents are from India. Some
                           of my family is still there. I
                           frequently visit there.
                           I don't know which part you find
                           issue with, but this is what I
                           have seen and read about.
           \_ There is nasty affirmative action in India which makes it
              really really tough for Brahmins and Kshatriyas.  Stupidity
              doesn't end at US borders, it seems. -- ilyas
              \_ Is it tougher for them than for members of the toilet
                 sweeping and rat catcher castes?
                 \_ As far as, for example, university admissions... yeah.
                    Ask any indian.  -- ilyas
                    \_ how many indians have you asked?  and did you ask
                       them what their castes are?
                       \_ I don't understand why this is relevant.  Everyone I
                          know who is from India says this.  You can google for
                          additional evidence on this.  Do you think I am lying
                          or something?  Ask Partha. -- ilyas
                          \_ I know there is something similar to affirmative
                             action in India.  Please explain why it is "nasty"
                             and "stupid".  And why it is "really really tough"
                             for Brahmins.  Do you really know enough about
                             India to say that?
                             \_ In the words of Tyler Durden: "This conversation
                                is over." -- ilyas
                                \_ difficult to admit you have no clue what
                                   you are talking about, eh?
                 \_ yes. A brahmin needs close to a perfect score on
                    an entrance exam, whereas a "rat catcher" only
                    needs 25%. Do you really want water quality
                    inspected by someone who got in with a 25%?
                    How about your health inspectors? Sometimes
                    it doesn't matter that you are "backwards",
                    there needs to be min standards.
           \_ Are you a brahmin?  If not, what caste are you from?
              And what is your caste all about?
                \_ Yes I am a brahmin.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:31109 Activity:low
7/1     http://www.awitness.org/news/december_2001/osama_nose_job.html
2004/6/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:31020 Activity:high
6/26    Why do we have sanctions on Cuba?
        \_ Because when Castro ousted Batista, he made ouvertures to the
           Kennedy government, who didn't like his leftist leanings.  There
           followed a spiral of tit-for-tat, at some point the Cubans
           nationalized most corporate possessions, which the Americans didn't
           like, we organized and fucked-up an invasion, the Cubans got cozy
           with the Soviets, who put missiles there, which we risked a
           nuclear war to (successfully) get out.  The sanctions came
           about in the early '60s to try and force Castro out of office, and
           have been propagated for a number of reasons, including not liking
           commies in our back yard, Cuban human rights violations, and
           obstinate right-wing Cuban expats in Florida.  Look up the Helms-
           Burton act and the history of the United Fruit Company for
           starters.  -John
           \_ I wouldn't call the Florida Cubans right wing.  I would call
              them ardently anti-Castro.  They're a one-platform political
        \_ To drive up the cost of Cuban cigars.
        \_ because we got pissed off by Cuba's decision to become an
           independent country than a colony of United States.
           \_Wow, time to get your head out of your ass and read up on
             basic 20th Century American history. How's the smell down there?
           \_ w00t!
             \_ how about next time you actually try to respond intelligently
        \_ hard to say,.  I think we're just waiting for castro to die now.
           the cuba sanctions are pretty pointless
           \_ Again, it amazes one how clueless supposedly intelligent people
              are. We have sanctions against cuba because of the expatriot
              cuban vote in Florida. C'mon, guys, you can't be that behind
              politics in America, can you?
              \_ so the entire country has sanctions against cuba because
                 of how a subset of floridians feel? i don't follow...
                 \_ Cuba has been the Soviets client state throughout
                    Castro's reign.  On behalf of the Soviets Cubans trained
                    many of the Arab terrorists we fight today and sent
                        \_ judging by how much money we sent to pakistan
                           and afghanistan, i bet we trained way more
                           arab terrorists than the cubans.  plus
                           the soviets aren't a threat anymore, they all
                           move to UCLA to be armchair historians.
                           \_ That's what we want you to think. -- ilyas
                           \_  You don't know what you are talking about.
                    troops to Nicaraugua, Zaire, Angola, and Algeria, among
                    others.  The axis today between Castro, De Silva, and
                    Chavez is destroying South America.
                    \_ Chavez is in a lot of trouble.  There's no doubt in
                       my mind the US has a lot to do with it.  US foreign
                       policy successes (by their very nature) never get
                       publicized until much much later. -- ilyas
                       \_ you make laugh
                          \_ He has something to say.  You're a low grade
        \_ Because we can, the best of all reasons.
           \- The US mania over cuba has consequences beyond bilateral
              relations and domestic politics. It's gone beyond "mere"
              mutual neglect. e.g. Helms-Burton. --psb
           \_ stupid.  we *can* destroy the whole fucking world.  but we
              don't.  we *can* invade and take over all the annoying
              EU countries that needle us constantly.  but we don't.  we
              can do a lot of things that would be emotionally satisfying,
              but we don't.  you're an idiot.
2004/5/18 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:30280 Activity:nil
5/18    On the draft:  There are *no rules* for the draft.  Each is unique.
        Just because they did XYZ in Vietnam or ABC in WWII doesn't mean they
        will do the same thing again in any future drafts.  A future draft
        could cover any age range, could be in any order, could have any list
        of exemptions or none at all.  *IF* there is a draft, they will
        determine the rules at the time.  Anyone who tells you before that
        time that you are or are not draftable doesn't know what they're
        talking about.
        \_ You are right, they could start out by drafting 80 year old
           widows, but they probably won't.
        \_ All you future draft dodgers don't need to worry.  Planning is
           being done so the U.S. has something in its back pocket in the
           event of a serious threat to national security:  e.g., North Korea
           starts nuking, we end up in a war with China, Iran starts a
           conventional war with threat of nukes, Pakistan-India blows up,
           an oil-rich country is nuked, there is a coup which leads to any
           of these things, etc.  If any of the above happens, conscription
           will be the least of your worries.
           \_ I'd love to believe our country is this strong.  But considering
              that it only takes two small third-world countries, whose govts
              have already been toppled, to strain our military resources so
              badly, I wouldn't believe in this.
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:30206 Activity:kinda low
5/13    Anti-oursourcing movement: http://tinyurl.com/29paf
2004/4/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:13370 Activity:nil
4/24    Hey, where is the long vietnam war thread?  Did I miss any
        insights from psb?
        \- see http://csua.com
           for me vs AMC --psb
           \_ Wow. Pretty sad debate. I'm sure liberals and Democrats will
              be faulted for the failures in Iraq too. The next person to
              say Iraq == Vietnam needs to be slapped.
              \_ Yah -- the problem wasn't lefties or liberals, it was the
                 60's counter-culture and 'free love' social phenomenon.
                 Without the support of the people, the government was
                 never able to muster sufficient support for our (better
                 trained, better equipped) troops to hold onto any tangible
                 victory.  It was a pretty sad conflict.  Though there may
                 be some peripheral similarities to Vietnam, the conflict in
                 Iraq actually has a fair degree of popular support.
                 \_ And the guerilla warfare, lack of clear goals, lack of
                    cooperation between the branches, and an utter lack of
                    what would constitute winning the war certainly didn't
                    help.  Now, which war am I talking about?
                    \_ Stop. Stop right there. Vietnam and Iraq are two
                       different wars being fought for different reasons in
                       different parts of the world with different goals in
                       mind. They are DIFFERENT!
                    \_ Clear goal: democracy in iraq.  What would constitute
                       winning the war: democracy in iraq.  Utter lack of
                       cooperation between the branches: source-p.
                       You are repeating things you heard without thinking.
                       \_ That's a clear POLITICAL goal.  What's the clear
                          MILITARY goal?  We had a clear political goal in
                          Vietnam too.
                 \_ The Vietnam war had huge amounts of support until people
                    started doubting the bright and sunny forecasts and began
                    to see the effects on the vets returning.
        \_ What made Vietnam so terrible was the fact that everything that
           could be screwed up there, was.  Eisenhower screwed 'Nam for
           the French, JFK wouldn't let it die, LBJ tried to micromanage
           it, and made the rules of engagement ridiculous.  Nixon took a
           shot a fixing things, but popular support was gone, so he
           finally gave up, only to have congress completely screw Vietnam
           over so the South couldn't continue fighting on it's own.
           We've screwed somethings up in Iraq, but it's still nowhere
           near 'Nam.  Stop smokin' so much pot and come back to reality.
           \_ No. What makes Vietnam so terrible *for Americans* was retreat
              after so many years of war. Had Vietnam somehow stablized into
              a situation akin to Korea, it would have been touted as a huge
              success. The Vietnamese have their own view of the conflict
              in their country. POV is important here.
              \_ It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's "Captain Obvious!"
              \_ Believe me, if there was an option not to retreat, we would've
                 stayed. Despite what you hear in the 'free media', we retreated
                 because the PRC was engaged in the war and we had no other choice.
                 We retreated and and established diplomatic relationship with the
                 PRC. It was the only exit strategy. The PRC can afford keep
                 fighting the war, we can't. We also 'gave' up Taiwan alone
                 with Vietnam. You honestly think we would've done so if we had
                 a choice? So don't just say "oh why did we retreat", it's like
                 saying, oh why did we use the A-bomb. We did because we have
                 no other choice.
2004/4/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:13365 Activity:nil
4/23    Yeah, you counter-culture beatniks really emote the truth with
        these so-called pics of dead serviceman at http://thememoryhole.org
        I hope when YOU are dead, they showed pictures of YOUR CASKET.
        I am just glad it won't be blessed with an American flag.
        \_ Here you have before you a live Bush supporter.
           Don't get too close, they bite!
           \_ you're just saying that liberal crap because you don't really
              understand the policy.  this should clear it up:
                \_ despite the policy, i do wonder where all those corpses go
                \_ the *only* reason that these photos (or video) are not
                   released is so that public opinion does not turn against
                   any post-vietnam war. the gov't doesn't give a shit about
                   families feelings, let alone their health (e.g., agent
                   orange, gulf war syndrome, etc). Don't fool yourself into
                   always accepting the gov't line. "Trust no one". -Mulder
        \_ Talk to some of their families, who say they want the public to
           know how many are dying.
           \_ Look.  It's understandable that military families don't want to
              lose loved ones, but this is how war is.  I am sure _some_ of
              the military families dislike Bush and his policies, but so what?
              The public is fully aware of how many are dying, it's being
              trumpeted by CNN every single fucking day.  At any rate,
              50,000 >>> 700.
                \_ where do you get your 50k figure?  about 4 MILLION
                   died in the vietnam war.
                   \_ 50k combat US deaths, about 60k total US deaths around
                      Vietnam.  Did you notice that this thread was talking
                      about US casualties, not total casualties?
                   \_ Are you counting the *entire* Vietnam war which includes
                      the time the French were there and we weren't?  It was
                      roughly 2m Vietnamese dead during the time the US was
                      there.  40:1 is pretty god damned good.  This was a war
                      lost at home, not in the field.  If we "lose" in Iraq
                      it won't be because we lost on the ground.  As usual it
                      will be lost at home because of people like you.
                           \- Mr. D. Ass: wars are about achieving your
                              political objective, not maximizing your own to
                              enemy casualty rate. Rather than win/lose, ask
                              yourself what was the point of the US involvement
                              and then answer whether that goal was achieved
                              and eval whether it was "successful" on those
                              terms. While you are at it, you may want to
                              look up what city SGN is the airport code for.
                              "Let me speak honestly, frankly,  -Le Duc Tho to
                              openheartedly. You are a liar."    Super K
                              \_ Uhm...did you even read the post you're
                                 replying to?  I think you just reiterated his
                                 point, only with a bunch of lame ad hominem
                                 thrown in.
                              \_ Talk about missing the point.... After the
                                 Tet Offensive, the leftists in America forced
                                 us to finally leave, when in fact that very
                                 same assault was beaten back with minimal
                                 American losses and truly devastating losses
                                 to the enemy.  After the TO the enemy had no
                                 reserves or military strength.  The war was
                                 over.  We had won.  Except we didn't because
                                 it was lost at home.  We walked away after
                                 one of the biggest military victories in
                                 history and chalked up the whole thing as a
                                 military and political loss.  There was never
                                 a military loss.  The political loss was
                                 caused by people like the person I replied to
                                 above, at home.  --that poster above
                                 \- explaining why the war unfolded as it
                                    did or what were the side effects of the
                                    war whike interesting history is diff q
                                    than "was the war a success". if the war
                                    was conducted to prevent a communist
                                    victory, well that didnt happen, did it.
                                    you can say "enough was done to prevent
                                    the dominos from falling" but that also
                                    opens the response that "the domino
                                    theory as stated was wrong" since
                                    marginal changes in the balance of power
                                    didnt seem to be destabilizing. so you
                                    tell me first "what was the point of the
                                    american intervention in vietnam"? and
                                    then we'll talk about whether that was
                                    successful. Obviously the North `won' the
                                    Civil War in the sense that the union was
                                    preserved, slavery abolished, and ante-
                                    bellum souther culture and economics
                                    changed. However, the Union also had
                                    vastly higher wounded/killed. --psb
                                        \_ Good duck.  Back to the point: if we
                                           had stayed after the TO and not let
                                           ourselves be mislead by the left in
                                           this country, the North would have
                                           been beaten back and Vietnam would
                                           most likely be a mirror of what SK
                                           has become today.  Democratic,
                                           industrial, capitalist, generally
                                           successful.  We won Vietnam on the
                                           ground, but lost it at home.
                                        \_ S. Vietnam invaded, Cambodia
                                           invaded, Afghanistan invaded,
                                           Angola and Mozambique Communist
                                           revolutions, Nicarauga
                                           communist revolution
                                           ... seems to me the domino
                                           theory was right.  The Soviets
                                           realized they could not
                                           contest NATO in Europe so
                                           they pursued the third world.
                                           This is history of the
                                           Cold War 101.
                                           \- how did any of these affect
                                              US security? do you think the
                                              break down of sino-soviet
                                              harmony in the 1960, becoming
                                              smewhat open with the conflict
                                              on the ussuri river caused the
                                              a shift in the balance of
                                              power between E and W? If the
                                              "loss of china" didnt cause much
                                              security problems for the SU,
                                              dont you think it is odd to
                                              suggest angola, nic. cuba etc
                                              especially mattered in terms of
                                              the "big picture"? afganistan
                                              arguably was a bit of a change
                                              in doctrine. --psb
                                              \_ If you can't formulate
                                                 an explanation yourself
                                                 I don't think there's
                                                 much point in explaining
                                                 it. But Afghanistan
                                                 for example
                                                 offered a land bridge to
                                                 the middle east and
                                                 the goal was the
                                                 warm water ports of
                                                 Pakistan.  The outlook
                                                 was pretty bleak for
                                                 the US in the 1970s.
                                                 \- On vietnam see
                                        Leslie Gelb and Richard K Betts:
                                        The Irony of Vietnam and Bernard
                                        Brodie, War and Politics ... "many
                                        grave  ... decisions concerning 'nam
                                        were made on assumptions or premises
                                        which would not withstand any kind of
                                        logical scrutiny but were simply never
                                        challenged" ... e.g. domino theory.
                                        For similar on say Afganistan see
                                        Stephen Van Evera's ppr called
                                        something like "why states believe
                                        stupid things." Of course Waltz'79
                                        is an exceptional book. It has a
                                        reference: "as some saw early in the
                                        struggle, and as most saw later on,
                                        in terms of global politics little was
                                        at stake in vietnam (Steossinger'76,
                                        Chap 8, shows this was Kissinger's
                                        view)." --psb
                                        \_ Quoting a bunch of folks out of
                                           context doesn't add anything or
                                           make a point.  It does kind of turn
                                           me on though and makes you look
                                           very pseudo brainy.  Can I have your
                                           love child?
                      \_ Let me get this straight: with 30 years of
                         hindsight, you honestly believe that Vietnam was
                         a war worth fighting?  That we should have stuck
                         it out just to put yet another notch in the win
                         column?  I find that appalling, and I'd like to
                         know-- why?
                         \_ I am not the poster above, but whether Vietnam
                            was worth fighting depends on whether you believe
                            the containment strategy was a good idea.
                            It's a good question, and I am not sure I know
                            the answer.  Certainly rejecting Vietnam as a bad
                            idea just because a lot of people died seems wrong.
                              -- ilyas
                            \_ I am not the poster above.
                               While containment is arguably an ok idea,
                               Vietnam turned out to be a bad place to do
                               it.  American arrogance and racism alienating
                               the Vietnamese did not help.  Should've
                               recognized the mistake and futility earlier
                               and taken a step back and done the containment
                               at the border of Thailand.
                               \_ Your argument is different from the guy above
                                  you, he says: "Vietnam itself was a bad war",
                                  while you say something much weaker:
                                  "Vietnam execution had mistakes".  Certainly
                                  this is true.  I don't believe there was
                                  institutional racism in Vietnam, but I am
                                  not a student of that war (I find it to be
                                  kind of a boring war, in fact I find all
                                  American wars to be boring for some reason).
                                    -- ilyas
                                  \_ Sure, but execution is almost
                                     everything.  Your execution should not
                                     be contrary to your purpose for the war.
                                     Also, one has to ask if US's concern
                                     for the livelihood of the Vietnamese
                                     or just view it as a pawn in a global
                                     fight against communism.  Did US really
                                     cared if 1 million or 4 million
                                     vietnamese died?  At that point in
                                     time racism was still institutionalized
                                     in America itself, why do you not
                                     believe it's in Vietnam too?
                                        \_ 25 million Russians and
                                           10 million Germans died in
                                           WWII - was this also a racist
                                           war?  As with all Communist
                                           insurrections, the war is cast
                                           in terms national liberation
                                           by a cadre at the top.  Once
                                           the fighting has ended the
                                           common people and footsoldiers
                                           realize they have
                                           been duped and, if they are
                                           not subsequently assasinated,
                                           find themselves living as
                                           serfs in a totalitarian
                                           \_ Nazi belief in racial
                                        superiority certainly played
                                        a role in the decision to
                                        invade Russia.  I don't know
                                        what you mean by "racist war".
                                        I did not say that racism is
                                        the sole driver of the wars.
                        \_ Vietnam was conceptually similar to Korea - was
                           the Korean War a good idea?  Considering
                           S. Korea is the 11th largest economy in the world
                           I'd say so.  Vietnam was won.  South Vietnam
                           was free and democratic for two years until the
                           leftists in Congress that Kerry epitomized
                           decided to
                           withdrawl all military and financial support
                           to Saigon.  N. Vietnam, backed by the Soviets and
                           China, violated the Treaty of Paris and invaded
                           not only S. Vietnam but also Cambodia.
              \_ your arithmetic expressions holds true.  so at what point
                 are the deaths too much? 7000?
                 \_ One wonders if the US pulled out of Vietnam due to casualty
                    aversion or something else. -- ilyas
                        \_ Because of leftists in gov't and Congress.
              \_ Yeah, this is just like Vietnam.
        \_ Soldiers who die in the line of duty deserve to be honored, both
           in private ceremonies and in public.  There is no shame in dying
           for your country, nor is there shame in sending men and women to
           die for their country.  Either take pride in them and honor them
           publicly, or admit that you have not the courage of your
           convictions and you've asked them to die for a farce.
           \_ there is plenty of shame in sending men and women to die
              needlessly for their country.
              \_ Don't blame the soldier, blame the Commander(s) in Chief
                 \_ Starting with jimmie carter who proved to the islamic
                    fascists that terrorism can work again a super power.
                    \_ rofl, terrorism has always worked.  most rebellions
                        start out as "terrorism"
2004/3/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12895 Activity:kinda low
3/27    Has anyone bought travel health insurance before for a trip to
        another country (especially for third-world countries like
        ghana, india, etc)? Do you recommend it?
        \_ yes.
        \- are you trying to insure against digestive meltdown or
           hepatitis or motorcycle accident? are you looking for travel
           insurance that will evacuate you by helicopter from the
           backwaters of nepal? i'm not sure you need much more than a
           bottle of cipro and some local intelligence. --psb
           \_ how about Maoist insurgance in Nepal :p
2004/2/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12218 Activity:high 61%like:10955
2/11    Colin Powell losing it:  (buh-bye legacy!)
        \_ "Losing it" != telling off insolent, disrespectful idiots during a
           formal hearing, at which you are expected to conform to rules of
           order.  It would have been equally correct of Clinton to go off on
           someone treating him this way when answering a question posed by some
           drooling old congressman about "where he stuck that cigar". -John
           \_ yes, but can you give an example where Clinton went off like
              that?  And if he did, wouldn't you also think Clinton was
              on uncertain footing when he did tell someone off?
              -anonymous coward & op
        \_ Hmm, Colin Powell vs. anonymous adolescent on MOTD in support
           of insolent pages and socialists?  I'll stick with
           member of the lowest profession earth?  I'll stick with
           Powell thanks.
        \_ Powell?  Losing it?  Racist.  I'll bet you've spent time trying to
           fabricate dirt on Condi, too.
        \_ IMO, he's losing it.  I think he's saluting the flag, and getting
           pretty irritated at the prospect of the tarnishing of his
           reputation from loyalty to Bush.  Also, IMO, if you ever find
           yourself using the phrase "let's not go there", you've already
           Powell thanks.
           fabricate dirt on Condi, too.
           lost. -op
2004/2/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12200 Activity:very high
2/10    I've been seeing a lot in the news about outsourcing IT jobs
        recently, but nobody ever brings up economic arguments about
        how free trade benefits everyone.  To me it seems like the best
        thing for the US would be to allow outsourcing and use taxes
        from increased corporate profits to help temporarily displaced
        workers.  Any thoughts on why all the outsourcing arguments are
        emotional outbursts instead of rational economic arguments?
        \_ It's money going into foreign economies, to be used there.
           I don't know how increased corporate profits really leads to
           increased tax intake... my impression is that any corp worth
           its salt will create a shelter around the outsourced call center
           so that the CC can report great profits without being taxed at
           the US rate.  Can somebody back me up or correct me?
           \_ Actually no.  For various reasons, foreign economies, esp.
              those 3rd countries that you are worried about outsourcing to,
              have a historical difficulty in keeping money in their own
              country, and it is not getting any better.  In fact this
              is one reason driving them so hard to keep exporting and
              getting sourced -- just to keep afloat, barely.
        \_ Temporarily replaced until what?  They get a burger flipping job?
           But oh yeah even McDonald's was closing storefronts and laying off
           people.  What could be worse than getting laid off from McD's?
           These are not American companies.  They are vast multinational
           corporations with no concern or regard for this or any other
           country's people.  Profit is God and it isn't being put back into
           the economy in a useful way.  How did HP eating Compaq, laying off
           10's of thousands of Americans and moving their jobs to India help
           \_ Are you saying Carly Fiorina isn't American?
              \_ I understand what CF owes to her kids. I understand
                 what she owes to her shareholders. I understand what
                 she owes to her neighbors and secretary and employees.
                 Can you explain to be what special duties she owes to
                 Americans? Does she have some special obligation also
                 to say white people? --psb
                 \_ Partha, you're an American.  From this we can prove
                            \- how do you figure that? my point being if you
                            \- how do you figure that? my point is: if you
                               feel she/HP owe something to "all americans"
                               because they are "more like" americans, then
                               why doenst this apply to race? i would like you'
                               to argue why race and nationality should be
                               trated differently ... or fess up that they
                               are equally valid moral categories based on
                               which to treat people differently. --psb
                               \_ I would say that distinguishing CF from
                                  the entity of HP dilutes the point.  The
                                  point is the corporation is operating in
                                  this country.  It reaps benefits from this
                                  country and its stability.  We should have
                                  the balls to say "If you don't employ people
                                  here, you should be paying higher taxes."
                               \_ So you're not an American? Then wtf are you
                                  doing here then? Go back to your own country.
                                  \_ He might be a permanent resident which
                                     would mean that he isn't an American,
                                     but he has every right to remain here
                                     provided he does not commit a deportable
                               \_ Race: a function of genetics. Nationality:
                                  a function of social grouping. I'd argue
                                  that race is less important than nationality
                                  on that basis, and that nationality is less
                                  important than tribe, and that tribe is less
                                  important than family. Depending on the
                                  level of nurture/support you received from
                                  those levels, you could conceivably swap
                                  them around, with the exception of Race,
                                  which may form the tenuous basis for initial
                                  social interaction, but which does not
                                  inform or impose social groups/interactions
                                  on its own. Again, depending on the level
                                  of support/nurture you receive, your loyalty
                                  to the various levels in the hiearchy may
                                  also vary. CF owes no moral duty to other
                                  white people (or, for that matter, women);
                                  she does owe a moral duty to America for
                                  providing her with a socio-economic
                                  environment conducive to satisfying her
                                  corporate greed. As a captain of industry,
                                  it is her duty to perpetuate the corporate
                                  industrial model by providing jobs and
                                  strenghtening the economy.
                                  \_ You've contradicted yourself with
                                     your own arguement.  Sure, a CEO
                                     *should* show loyalty to their nation.
                                     However, their tribe, the tribe of
                                     CEOs and other members of the plunderer
                                     class holds far more loyalty from its
                                     members than nations do from their
                                     citizens.  Which is why we need laws,
                                     and which is why the world would be a
                                     better place if the motd libertarians
                                     would just fucking keel over and die.
                                     \_ *shrug* I never argued that a person
                                        should owe loyalty to their nation
                                        over the loyalty owed to their tribe.
                                        I simply argued that the duty to
                                        Nation is more morally justifiable
                                        than the duty to Race.
                    that not all Americans are white people.  In addition,
                    Prince Charles is a white person.  From this we can
                    prove that not all white people are Americans.  Having
                    dispensed with the mythical relationship between being
                    white and being American, we can now move to the
                    specifics: CF is American and her kids are Americans.
                    Therefore, anything that CF does to increase her
                    bottom line benefits Americans, regardless of whether
                    she has some special duty to do so.
           \_ Your sound like a classic Marxist-Leninist class warrior,
              who believes wealth is redistributed rather than created.
              I am not fond of Bush yet if it would be truly disastrous should
              we replace him by a protectionist demagogue.  Economy by
              its very nature has ups and downs.  Why didn't we complain when
              the time was too good?  Are we too spoiled to adapt and create?
              Besides, other than psychological stress, do you know anyone
              who is suffering horribly (homeless in People's park don't count
              - they never did.)
              \_ Why don't the homeless count? How about other poor people?
                 How about the guy who is raped nightly in prison?
           \_ Well, it helped in that we can now buy computers for something
              like $500 instead of $2000. More people own them now than ever
              and are proficient in using them. Is losing those high-paid
              R&D jobs worth it (ex DEC guys)? The answer is that it depends.
              \_ This conversation is funny because you guys are all talking
                 about jobs which YOU hold that could be the target of such
                 outsourcing, and you're goofing off at work to talk about it.
                 Get back to work, drones.
           \_ These responses are perfect examples of what I'm wondering about.
              Imagine that everyone in the US can produce either 8 sodas
              per day or 2 pizzas per day while people in India can
              produce 1 soda per day or 4 pizzas per day.  If people
              in the US refuse to allow outsourcing then all Americans
              must make do with s/8+p/2 <= 1 (where s is number of sodas and
              p is number of pizzas).  If we allow outsourcing
              so that Indians specialize in pizzas and Americans specialize
              in sodas which are traded 1-to-1 then Americans can have
              s/8+p/4 <= 1.  Thus Americans *benefit* (You can show that
              Indians benefit too).  The end result turns out the same
              pretty much no matter what numbers you plug in.  Essentially
              everyone benefits by spending their labor on what they are
              best at.  Of course, this model ignores things like American
              pizza maker's being put out of work when pizza making moves
              to India.  But the solution to that would seem to be to use
              tax revenues to retrain them so that everyone is better off.-op
              \_ Retrain them for what? These are American companies setting
                 up shop in other countries (basically international co's).
                 So the skill and knowhow are transferred, while labor, tax,
                 environmental etc. regulations are better for them and wages
                 are dirt cheap. Labor itself is a tradeable good, which
                 puts downward competitive pressure on labor standards. Without
                 protection, regular American workers can't be competitive with
                 other countries willing to have lower standards, as over time
                 the competitive advantage in skills narrows and disappears.
                 US still has the advantage in certain tech areas and research,
                 but that's not a broad employment area and corps can just use
                 that here with minimum investment in the economy.
                 \_ Retrain them for jobs in the medical profession for
                    example.  We have a shortage of doctors in this country.
                    If another country can do something dirt cheap then why
                    not let them do it cheaply and spend our effort on higher
                    value products?  The money saved by outsourcing to India
                    can be used to make our economy stronger by investing in
                    research, education, science, etc.  Why not take the $70K
                    IT job and ship it to India for $20K and spend the $50K
                    on training the former IT worker to do something even
                    more productive like discovering a cure for cancer? -op
              \_ White collar jobs being outsourced to India aren't being sent
                 there because Indians do it better, but because Indians will do
                 it for less.  You really just explained why trade is good.
                 \_ I realize that, but this was simpler to show quickly.
                    Like I said, no matter how you set things up, free trade
                    usually benefits everyone.  My point was that I can't
                    these good economic argument against outsourcing as long
                    as some provision is made for temporarily displaced
                    workers (e.g., retraining, education, unemployment). -op
                    \_ "free trade" does not benefit everyone. There are
                       winners and losers. Ask Detroit if they benefited
                       from the mad rush of manufacturing jobs overseas.
                       It benefits shareholders and CEOs. Probably overall
                       hurts the working and middle classes.
                       \_ I agree that Detroit is an example of what can go
                          wrong with free trade.  But I fault our society and
                          government for not making the effort to retrain and
                          educate former auto workers for careers in better
                          professions.  If they had done that, we would have
                          cheaper foreign cars and more prosperous workers.-op
              \_ Our middle class was built on a robust manufacturing economy.
                 That economy was outsourced, causing massive upheavals of all
                 sorts and lots of Bad Stuff (c.f. 1970s, early '80s).  It
                 was replaced by a service economy that now seems to be in
                 the early stages of being outsourced.  What I'm wondering is
                 twofold: What are the consequences, economically and socially,
                 of another such upheaval, and what will replace the service
                 economy?  Another way of putting the first part of the
                 question is, "Have you ever seen what happened to Detroit?"
                 Free trade definitely has its benefits, and I'm in favor of
                 it with some caveats, but keep in mind its a CHOICE, not
                 an inevitability, and I think it benefits some much more than
                 \_ The borrow-from-the-Chinese economy.
                 \_ The middle/upper management economy.
        \_ So do those of you who oppose IT outsourcing buy American?  If
           not, why is it OK for you to buy foreign cars, clothes, or
           electronics but not OK for a company to offer cheaper service
           by outsourcing IT jobs?  I'm curious since a good response would
           let me drive my Toyota, oppose outsourcing, and sleep well at night.
2004/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12191 Activity:nil
2/10    According to the McKinsey Global Institute, offshoring will benefit
        the US by saving money (which can be passed on to the customer or the
        investor, and you guess which one is more likely to see the money) and
        by creating wealth overseas that will be used to buy products from the
        http://csua.org/u/5xg (Economic Times of India)
        How does this make any sense?  Why wouldn't offshorers take their
        wages and invest them locally (i.e., buy knock-off CDs and DVDs)
        instead of paying US prices for goods?
        \_ Don't worry.  The invisible hand will make everything right.
        \_ No, it doesn't make any sense.  The report is easily shredded.  This
           is just PR puffery from Indian IT firms.
           \_ This PR Puffery is echoed by the bush administration.
              \_ Yes, so?  What's that have to do with the OP's questions?  Are
                 you trying to say that because the current administration says
                 something is true makes it true?  Think for yourself for once.
2004/1/30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:12023 Activity:very high
1/29    Ah, our good friends and allies...
        \_ Mussharif is only holding onto power by his fingernails. If
           he let in US troops that would be the end of him.
           \_ so who exactly is booting him out and why would they be
              \_ Good grief. Just go read about the past couple of years in
                 Pakistan in your favorite news venue.
                 \_ I have.  I read a lot of hysteria, and it's tough to
                    know how exposed leaders of state actually are in
                    foreign countries.
                    \_ So you can't figure it out yet you call it hysteria?
                       I think 2 assassination attempts in a week is not
                       hysteria.  Maybe you've got a stronger stomach than
                       me and Mussharraf.
              \_ how about the nearly weekly assassination attempts, blamed on
                 Al-Queda/Taliban folks?
                 \_ One could say Musharraf is on the verge of getting killed,
                    or he has quashed the radicals responsible and tightened
                    security.  Now which argument is valid?
                    \_ Having survived 2 very close assassination attempts very
                       recently it is unlikely he has magically quashed the
                       radicals responsible since then.  Now which argument is
        \_ for those who think we've always care about democracy.  This
           Mussharif guy is someone who overthrew a democratic elected
           government at first place.  He is a prime example of "as long as
           you are pro-American, we don't really care what you do."
           \_ "for those who"... no one thinks we've "always care about
              democracy".  that's a big fat straw man.
             \_ do you acknowledge that it was a bloodless coup, that the
                democratically-elected leader was corrupt, and that Musharraf
                could just have easily not supported the U.S. strike against
                the Taliban?
                \_ Pakistan needed an ally to offset India/China.  That has
                   nothing to do with the above line stating that this is
                   some wonderland where we always do the moral thing just
                   because it is the moral thing.  No one believes that.  It
                   is, as I said, a big fat strawman and now you're just
                   trying, and failing, to change the subject.
        \_ Pakistan has one of the best spy agency outside the super-power
           state.  I really think Mussharif knows a lot more than he is
           willing to admit.
           \- i suspect pakistan's spy agency as a pretty limited set of
              objectives. --psb
              \_ 1) know what India is doing, 2) protect bin Laden and other
                 al Qaeda people, 3) know what is going on in the disputed
                 territories, 4) fuck shit up in disputed territories, 5) send
                 hit squads into Indian parliament.  5 isn't so many, I guess.
2004/1/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Recreation/Food] UID:11789 Activity:high
1/14    I thought everyone in the bay area knows about pho:
        \_ careful, Mad Cow'd soup bones where used by Vietnamese Restaurants
           in Bay Area
        \_ I didn't know about them until I started working at a mostly
           Vietnamese company about three years back.
        \_ I didn't know about them until I started working at a mostly
           Vietnamese company about three years back.
                \_ I don't like Viets but I must say Pho is one of those few
                   cool things they have contributed to this society.
        \_ This place down the street from my place is called PHO KING.  I
                went in thinking I was going to get some sucky sucky from some
                nice slender Viet girl, but to my surprise all they were
                selling was some big bowls of noodles and beef.
           \_ racist joke
           \_ How do you pronounce PHO KING? FUH-KING?
              \_ Assuming you're being serious, Fo King
           \_ There is a place in Milpitas or so called "Pho Kim Long"
                 \_ Little do you know, it is actually pronounced like "fuh".
                    \_ fuhk.
              \_ you're so clever, you got the joke!
           \_ There is a place in Milpitas or so called "Pho Kim Long"
2003/11/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:10915 Activity:nil
11/3    Iraq: Another Vietnam?
        \_ Yes, everything is Vietnam.  I can't wait until the hippie/yuppie
           generation retires and we can put their drug induced buggaboos
           to rest.  Don't trust anyone over 30.
           \_ Gulf War I, I don't think anyone disagrees about that not
              being a Vietnam
              \_ Actually before the war, there was alot of Vietnam talk when
                 people weren't sure if the UN was going to occupy Iraq.
        \_ Groan. The Tet offensive misinterpreted again. It was a big
           victory for the US forces, but came on the heels of LBJ declaring
           the war nearly over and talking possible troop pullback. Instead,
           more troops were deployed and the US was stuck for another five
           years. Iraq is NOT Vietnam. Somalia is NOT Vietnam. Bosnia is NOT
           Vietnam. Grenada, Haiti, Panama ... NOT Vietnam. Damn Boomers.
           \_ yea, but it's looking like the type of urban warfare we have
              stated right from the start that we would try to avoid at all
              \_ True, but the article refers to telling the "truth" about
                 Iraq and compares it to "Tet" as if to say "if only the
                 American public knew the TRUTH, we would have won Vietnam."
                 Correspondingly, if America knows the TRUTH about Iraq, we
                 would win. This at a time where the Administration is
                 refusing to release info on everything from energy policy to
                 threat memos concerning 9/11. TRUTH is so subjective.
                 \_ If Americans knew the truth about Iraq we wouldn't be
                    \_ If Americans knew the truth, we would've done it right
                       in '91 instead of playing global politic.
                 \_ The TRUTH is out there.
                   \_ so's yermom
                      \_ IFILE!
                         \_ It does my taxes?
                            \_ IRS!
        \_ Where are they going to put the monument to all the dead American
           soldiers? Isn't The Mall getting kind of full???
           \_ Maybe they'll stick some Post-It notes with the names on them
              on the Vietnam Memorial.
           \_ Why should there be?  You do know that the KIAs from WWII don't
              have a monument of any sort, right?
2003/11/1-2 [Reference/RealEstate, Finance/Shopping, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:10896 Activity:kinda low
10/31   Oh great.  A Vietnamese man just bought my building and has now
        cancelled the property management firm, the cleaning contract,
        and the pest control contract.  He claims he can do it all
        himself.  There are 19 units and over 30 people in the building.
        This is stupid - 5 years ago they finally beat back the roach
        invasion and now this chump is going to let them back in?
        Why is he so cheap?!
        \_ why do you still live in the Bay Area?!
             \_ Where do you live? And who do you work for?
        \_ Vietnamese people are always cheap. They are your worst nightmare
           as your employee (stupid) and your landlord (cheap). They're
           also your worst roomates (dirty). I'm speaking from personal
           experience. Do yourself a favor and move out ASAP.
           \_ I've got 7 months left on my lease.  ARGH!
              \_ You can break lease and move now or wait and pay double in
                 7 months after the economy improves.  Or you could kill him.
           \_ um, how are we vietnamese dirty?
              \_ heh, you'll accept stupid and cheap but dirty isn't ok?
                \_ ha that's pretty funny. Anyways, how come Vietcongese
                   bashing is ok but black/white/jews bashing gets trashed
                   by motd custodians? Is it because our custodians don't
                   like Viets as well?
                   \_ No, b/w/j bashing mostly causes the flamefest intended
                      by the trolls posting.  When that section of the motd
                      grows to 5 pages, it gets deleted.
                   \_ Edit it yourself. I like Vietnamese so well I married
                      one, I just don't see the need to censor idiots. It
                      is better to let the world see how stupid the bigots
                      really are.
           \_ sheesh, what a bigot!
        \_ Property management firms ... snicker.  Those are usually
           run by lazy, incompetent know-nothing do-nothing english major
           suit-wearing money-grabbers who think they are entitled to a
           high fee without providing any service.  Of course he should
           fire them and cut some fat.  Helps the economy, if nothing else.
           \_ I have yet to see an exception to the rule you state.
           \_ personal experience: management company did what was needed to
              be done at my apartment complex.  it was very industrial and
              there was no personal touch to anything but stuff got done. i
              moved from there to another complex run by the one-owner-guy and
              it was a big fucking filthy broken mess and a fire hazard to
              boot!  i'll take a prop. management firm anyday.
              \_ I think you mean "industrious."
                 \_ no, I mean industrial.  exactly like I said.  thanks.
        \_ At least your landlord wasn't the Lucky Reddy dude who bring
           indian peasant girls to the country to serve as sex slave
           and to help clean the apartment buildings.
           \_ If you're not an Indian peasant girl what do you care?
2003/10/30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:10856 Activity:nil
10/29   How do I find archived news on CNN finance? I'm having problems
        researching news on past dot coms, thanks.
        \_ try http://fuckedcompany.com
2003/10/8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Reference/BayArea] UID:10523 Activity:nil
10/7    Despite being hit the hardest in terms of the economy, 60% of Bay Area
        voters voted no on the recall.  Now the movie begins.
        \_ What gave you the idea that the BA was hardest hit?  H1bs going
           back to India don't count.
           \_ http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2003/04/07/daily66.html?f=et79
              \_ Most of them came here specifically for dotcom jobs when the
                 rate was under 2% and when they go home the rate will look
                 normal again.
           \_ do you count jobs going to India?
              \_ Jobs not here are jobs not here.  I really don't understand
                 what you're getting at.
        \_ http://csua.org/u/4n2
2003/9/23 [Finance/CC, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:10289 Activity:nil
9/22    I've had 2 Vietnamese roomates so far and I think they're AWFUL.
        They are dirty, lie about bills, and one of them is a thief (stole
        my credit card number and used them to order stuff sent to their
        homes in San Diego). I think of all the Asians out there, the
        Vietnamese people are amongst them one of the nastiest out there.
        I'm not saying ALL VCs are bad, just that in my personal experience
        many of them are. Also, I'm not saying that they're genetically
        inferior-- their behaviour is mostly defined by their background,
        and their refugee background is most likely what makes them what
        they are. Roomates, beware, and good luck to you all.
        \_ watch out for philipinos too
2003/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:28007 Activity:insanely high
4/5     What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the
        homeless, whether the mad destruction is brought under the name
        of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?
                                    - Gandhi
        \_ Gandhi was a British subject, disgruntled because he could not
           become an officer, who slept with preteen girls in the
           nude, was fixated on his own feces, gave tacit approval
           of the wholesale slaughter of Muslims after independence,
           advised the Jews of the Holocaust to go quietly, and was a
           supporter of the caste system.
           \_ Interesting; could you cite a few sources?
           \_ So what? Look up ad hominem.
              \- i imagine this is a troll, but in case it leaves some of
                 with mistaken impressions:
                 1. he was a british subject as a consequence of birth.
                    g. washington was also a british subject.
                 2. "couldnt not become an officer" ... "yes, g. washington
                     also was disgruntled because he couldnt become archbishop
                     of canterbury"
                 3. girls and feces ... feces not quite right. something
                    possibly to the girl stuff. i dont think there was any
                    accusation of molestation. YMWT(see) the play "gandhi vs.
                    the mahatma".
                 4. muslim: the main reason i replied. that is 100% opposite
                    to the actual state of affiars.
                 5. jews: dunno the answer there
                 6. caste system: more complicated than that
                 People in india have much more complicated and diverse
                 reactions and mpression of Gandhi in india. I dont think
                 much of this particular quites but he has some others that
                 much of this particular quote but he has some others that
                 arent to be believed slavishly but worth thinking about.
        \_ You want a real answer?  The answer is that it doesn't matter to
           the dead, but for millions of others who didn't get dead it
           matters a lot.  It's a naive and childish but catchy little quote.
        \_ It matters to me, if I get a good paying job because the economy
           improves because market and consumer confience recovers because
           of a decisive military victory for whatever reason and because,
           in time, we will have virtually unlimited supply of fuel.
                    \_ In time we will have a virtually unlimited supply
                       of fuel, but not because of Iraq or the war. Rather
                       the source will be our own waste coverted to fuel
                       via a fast depolymerization process (see this month's
                       discover for more info).
           \_ moron... in time, we will only be running out of fossil fuel.
              \_ The world has 2000-4000 years worth of coal, much of which is
                 in the U.S. Probably a good 200 years of oil, also.
                 I'm not advocating relying on fossil fuels, which is
                 a bad idea for alot of reasons, but we're not running
                 out any time soon.
                 \_ on the contrary, estimates of oil reserves can vary widely.
                    there are those who think oil will run out by the 2050's.
                    I.e. well within your projected lifetime.
                 \_ 2000+ years coal and 200 years oil!?  Are you serious?  URL
                    for sources please?
                    \_ I got those numbers from a UN report, which is
                       available on the web, but I can't find it right now.
                       if you're patient, I'll post it tomorrow, when I can
                       ask the guy who showed it to me(I'll post it anyway.)
2003/3/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:27872 Activity:nil
3/26    What the Slimes were saying about Afghanistan after 3 weeks -
        NY Times article entitled: Quagmire Recalled: Afghanistan as Vietnam
        \_ What part of that article doesn't still hold true?  The Vietnam
           comparison was weak, but it basically says that
                * the war is going more slowly than hoped
                * real ground troops are required
                * air power / special ops are not enough
                * setting up a new government will be difficult
           All of this has been borne out.  The country is still controlled
           by warlords in nearly every area; there are still many terrorist
           hideouts that can't be searched by a small force, and the special
           ops teams are spread too thin.
           \_ No one said it would turn into the flower of central asian
              democracy in a week.  I see no problems there that time won't
              \_ time and support, yes.  I'm not saying the situation is
                 horrible.  But the article was right.  We did need regular
                 troops, and those troops were sent.  Not enough, because of
           \_ They were wrong on every account.  The Afghan national army
              was being trained, and is now making progress.
2003/3/26 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:27867 Activity:nil
3/26    Petition to get India a permanent seat on the UNSC:
        \_ what possible benefit would that be to anyone but India?
        \_ I doubt Pakistan would be happy with that.  Do you really want a
           nuclear war in asia?
        \_ How about a petition to re-org the UNSC since it's entirely
           anachronistic and idiotic in today's world as it's formed now?
2003/1/30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:27248 Activity:nil
1/30    hola, i am no expert on indian politics but this seems an interesting
        development. --psb
        \_ Another critical foreign policy issue for the Bush administration.
           I have a bad feeling about this.
        \_ Quite an enjoyer of global politics as spectator sport, aren't you?
        \_ This is very kewl. Thanks, Partha! -psb #3 fan
           \- you know, this brings a new meaning to: --psb
           ### guardians of the revolution in great white satan amerikkka
           komiteh-owner:          hojjat-al-islam-psb
           komiteh:                payam, ali, psb, allenp, abe
           revolutionary-guards:   komiteh
           ayatollah-khomeini:     ali
           ayatollah-montazeri:    payam
           ayatollah-beheshti:     allenp
           hojjat-al-islam-psb:    psb
        \_ Maybe they'll finally nuke each other and get it over with.
2003/1/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:26978 Activity:moderate
1/3     hola, does anyone know of any chinese/vietanese bakeries and
        vietnamese sandwich shops [like saigon sandwich at larkin and eddy]
        in OAK downtown? i have to meet someone on franklin st on fri --psb
        \_ Franklin and 6th-12th Streets or so is in Chinatown.  There are a
           lot of such shops around there.
           lot of such AMPs around there.
           that serves great vietnamese sandwitches for like 2 bucks.  Forget
        \_ there is a hole in the wall right next to the mall in OAK chinatown
           that serves great vietnamese hookers for like 2 bucks.  Forget
           exactly where it is though.  Right across the street from one side
           or the other with a green awning.
                \_ thanks, best damn 2 dollar food I've had in ages
           \_ 10th and Webster, about a half block down Webster.  Right
                      $25 in food [and am feeling kind of ill now] at a couple
                      of bakeries and sandwich facilites. these include
              around the corner from where I work.  --erikred
                \_ thanks, best damn 2 dollar sex I've had in ages
                   \- what is the name of this place? i ended up buying like
        \_ what is a "vietnamese sandwich"? it doesn't bring a pleasant image
                      $25 in sex [and am feeling kind of ill now] at a couple
           \- it is a sandwich made with
                      of brothels and hookers facilites. these include
                      Cam Hong on Franklin and Lao Houng [807 E. 12th]
                      [sp? on both names ... might be \pm a vowel or so].
                      ok tnx. --psb
           \_ Any good place like this in Stanford/Palo Alto/MenloPark/Redwood
              City area?
        \_ what is a "vietnamese hookers"? it doesn't bring a pleasant image
        \_ what is a "vietnamese hooker"? it doesn't bring a pleasant image
           \- it is a hookers made with
           to mind.
           \- it is a hooker made with
              Mango, Oregano, Radishes, Olives, Nutella
           \_ fresh french baguette roll, a meat (pate, vietnamese
                grilled pork, chicken, etc), radish, carrots, cilantro,
                seasoning and some leafy lettuce.  and jalapeno slices.
                usually sell for $2-$3 depending on place.  damn good.
           \_ "vietnamese hookers" is good. Two young hookers and you slip
              some meat between a pair of buns. Only $1.50 each at some places
              \_ I slip my meat between a pair of buns?  Ooh, ahh.
        \_ oh, how clever!  hookers instead of sandwiches!
2002/11/6 [Reference/Languages, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:26438 Activity:very high
11/5    What's the right pronunciation of Ngyuen? Gwen? New-Yen?
        \_ You can't make that sound without practice. Nyen is close.
        \_ You can't make that sound without practice. Nwin is close.
           \_ Ok, can a Vietnamese native speaker record a correct
              pronunciation (.wav or something) and post it in /csua/tmp?
              Curious people want to know...
           \_ I've always pronounced it closer to new-wen.
              \_ And your first language was what?
              \_ It is definitately only one syllable, no matter how you say it.
                 I think you mean Nguyen, right?
                 \_ bah, the first guy was right Nwin is how you say it
                    \_ I once knew a girl with that name who insisted
                       it was pronounced "nu-yin".
                       \_ that's cuz you she didn't want you in her pants
                    \_ I searched Yahoo and found both Nguyen and Ngyuen.  Are
                       they equivalent?  Or are they both correct but different
                       last names?
        \_ Yeah and what about Ng? Is that "ing"? If so why not spell it that
           way in the goddam first place? For that matter why would someone
           write a name "Hsiao", I mean it sure wasn't written that way in
           China so why not just write it phonetically?
        \_ The name is Nguyen.  It is the most common Vietnamese last
           name, much more common than Smith is here, and was the name of
           a series of emperors, the Nguyen Dynasty.  "Nguyen" is the
           Anglisized spelling.  In Vietnamese, there's a circumflex (^)
           over the "e" and a tilde (~) over the circumflex.  I've never
           heard of Ngyuen before.  That doesn't mean it's not a name, but
           I'm sure the one you're thinking of is Nguyen.

           The reason that they don't spell it "ing" in the goddamn first
           place is that it's not pronounced that way.  It's actually
           pronounced "ng", so a better question would be: why don't you
           pronounce it that way in the goddamn first place?  Actually, it
           can't be pronounced using English, only approximated (the
           alphabet is based on French, btw).  There are three reasons for

           1.  The "Ng" at the beginning.  We actually have this sound in
           English, but it only appears at the end of words.  For some
           reason it's really hard for us native English speakers to say
           it at the beginning of a word.  It's pronounced like the _end_
           of "ing".  I taught myself to say it by saying "ring" and
           holding the "ng" part at the end, after the "i".

           2.  The tone.  In Vietnamese (and many other Asian languages)
           the meaning of a word depends on the tone you use when saying
           it.  This can't really be described in writing, so get a
           Vietnamese person to pronounce it for you.  It took me a while
           to even be able to hear tones in Vietnamese; they all sounded
           the same to me.  For Nguyen, it's kind of like starting your
           voice at a normal pitch at "Ng", making the pitch drop as you
           say the letters through "uy", and then making the pitch sharply
           rise as you say, "en".

           3.  The pacing.  In English, this word would be pronounced with
           two syllables: Nguy-en or maybe Ngu-yen.  However, in
           Vietnamese it's pronounced as one syllable.

           In my opinion, "gwin" (like Tony Gwynn) is the closest you can
           come in English, but even then it's not that close to the
           Vietnamese pronounciation.  - mikeym
        \_ \Win\
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:26250 Activity:nil
10/18   http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/4310500.htm
        The problem isn't ``foreigners taking our jobs,'' it's ``American
        companies can get IT work done more cheaply overseas.''
        \_ Why go overseas when you can pick up H1Bs here who are afraid of
           packing themselves and their families up and moving back to the
           home country? It's a little more pricey, but you have greater
           control over the product, the employee, and avoid middleman markup?
        \_ All work can be done more cheaply overseas. This includes medical
           care, manufacturing, and so on. Cost-of-living is cheaper there and
           so are wages. The problem is what happens when everyone has been
           outsourced. Who will keep the US economy afloat then? --dim
           \_ I'm curious about how you would outsource medical care.  Fly
              people to Taiwan?  -tom
              \_ Lots of people go to Mexico for medical care. The point
                 being that doctors in Mexico make less than doctors here,
                 even though it's a skilled and valuable profession. Everything
                 costs less to do somewhere else. --dim
              \_ It's not hard for Kaiser-style medical care.  You call Kaiser
                 saying you are very sick and you want to make an appointment
                 to see a doctor, and the guy on the phone keeps on asking you
                 if you feel this and if you feel that, telling you it's no big
                 deal and go get some over-the-counter medicine and drink lots
                 lots of water, and bye.  If you insist on making an
                 appointment, he'll tell you there's a slot in three months.
                 Then you're left dying and he gets a bonus for turning yet
                 another patient away and saving the company money.  For this
                 kind of medical care, it's easy to outsource to any English-
                 speaking country with a phone network.
2002/6/19 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:25152 Activity:nil
6/19    Is this true or bogus or biased:
        \_ biased.
Ah, Gandhi, the one that sat on his ass for months while the Indian
National Army men(those former Indian soldiers under the Japanese) were
campaigning for the release of their leaders and rioting on the streets
even getting killed. When Gandhi began to see an opportunity opening he
began a peace march which seem laughable to the Brits because all they
had to do was wait until they go away. But the riots and mutiny was
another matter.

 "In 1956 Lord Attlee(former Prime Minister of Great Britain)
  was asked a question about Britain's hurried withdrawal from
  India in 1947. The British statesman who presided over the
  transfer of power to the leaders of India and Pakistan was
  halting in Calcutta for two days during his passage through
  India...Attlee was as good as his reputation for plain
  speaking. Without caring about the official British propaganda
  line, he mentioned a number of reasons for Britain's momentous
  decision, the most important among which, he emphasized, was
  that "the loyalty of the men of the Indian Army to their British
  commanders had been UNDERMINED by Subhas Chandra Bose's
  (Leader of Indian National Army) actions..." Incidentally,
  Governor P.B. Chakaravarti asked Lord Attlee his opinion on
  an allied subject as well. "Toward the end of the discussion",
  he wrote, "I wanted to know to what extent Mahatma Gandhi's
  non-violent movement had influenced the British decision to
  leave India. There was the flicker of a cautious smile on
  Attlee's lips as he uttered with slow deliberation the word
  'MI-NI-MAL'..."  Who had brought the country(India) so near
  its goal? General Sinha's answer is: "The above facts confirm
  that the INA(Indian National Army, which Japan helped to create)
  had a great psychological and political impact even though its
  military impact was not so significant. They also bring out that
  the Indian Army played a silent but significant role toward
  bringing about the independence of India.
            (Pandit's "The Last Days of Netaji")
2002/6/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:25032 Activity:high
6/7     I don't get this India/Paki thing. What's so special about Kashmir?
        Are they fighting for oil? minerals? Surely they're not fighting
        for stupid fir are they?
        \_ one of the legacy Britsh Empire left behind. This, along with
           Isreal/Palastine, Kuwait/Iraq, Hong Kong/China mainland, as
           part of White Man's burden to Civilize world.  American is
           trying to out-do Britian by muddling with North/South Korea,
           North/South Vietnam, and China mainland and Taiwan island.
           \_ isreal/palastine? legacy of the british empire?  you're
              an idiot. read the fucking bible.
              \_ uhm what about it?  Where's the part in there about suicide
                 bombers?  I recall God saying suicide was a sin.
           \_ White Man's Burden?  All "White Men" are not responsible for what
              the British aristocracy did over the last several centuries.
        \_ they're fighting for religious reasons mostly but im no expert.
           or maybe you could say it's political with religious underpinnings.
        \_ They're fighting over sweaters.
           \_ Is this Kashmir really the same "kashmir" as the variant of
              "cashmere"?  Or is it coincidence?
              \_ It's where the animals with the wool used for cashmere
                 sweaters are from.
        \_ <DEAD>www.kashmir.com/Causeofconflict.html<DEAD>
           \_ Yep. Clearly stated with no bias at all. Sure-thing.
              \_ "I saw it on the net!  It must be true!  It's like Peter
                  Jennings!  Yeah!"
        \_ They're both huge Zeppelin fans.
           \_ DUDE!
        \_ Kashmir is a very rich and beautiful piece of land.
           \_ i guess if you like living at 5,000 feet on a bunch
              of rocks.
              \_ Not down in the valley.  It's beautiful.
                 \_ No one is going to nuke anyone over a "beautiful valley".
        \_ http://www.kashmirtimes.com/latest.htm
          \_ Nice to find such a clearly un-biased source of information.
             Does anybody have a source OTHER than <DEAD>kashmir.com<DEAD> and
             http://kashmirtimes.com? Perhaps a BBC fact file or something from
             the Economist?
             \_ Yeah, because the BBC is so unbiased
                \_ I did say "perhaps". Can I get you to volunteer a source
                   my sardonic and as yet not very helpful friend?
                   \_ I get all my facts from the BBC.  My mind is now clear
                      of all bias.  Truth is a beautiful thing.  I now have
                      A Beautiful Mind.
        \_ how come nobody mentions the section of Kashmir that is controlled
           by the Chinese?
           \_ It is in the Himalayas and is worthless and has no inhabitants.
           \_ And it's controlled by the Chinese who neither India nor
              Pakistan is capable of going to war against because they'd just
              get crushed and make an excuse for the Chinese to move south.
2002/5/22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:24910 Activity:insanely high
5/21    I said a while ago this Pakistan/India thing was going nuclear...
        here's some more "fuel for the fire" as they say.
        \_ "The Pakistanis, who are considered better troops, would
           beat off the initial offensive"
           The Paks have one of the worst military corps in the
           world. They have lost every major encounter to India
           despite more modern weapons and training.
           And who do these diplomats think they are anyway? They
           should just butt out and let India solve the problem.
           \_ I believe the proper derogatory is "Paki."
           \_ The problem?  You mean the problem with the crazy psycho indians
              butchering muslims en masse over some stupid temple site that
              never belonged to the indians in the first place?  That problem?
              Or the one where the indian government is interferring on a daily
              basis with the lives of muslims in kashmir who are 99% peasants
              who would be perfectly happy to just be left alone on their
              rock strewn farms?  That problem?  The indians are going to get
              nuked.  They've earned it.
                 \_ Yeah. Indians have earned it alright. Let's not forget
                    that in '48-49 the Paks butchered hindus and sikhs
                    and sent back their body parts in train cars. Let's
                    not forget the Pak attrocities of the '71 war or of the
                    the Kargil war. (Muslims attrocities towards hindus
                    go back further than this, but we'll leave that out)
                    The current kashmir problem was started by Pak funded
                    plo/hamas style "operations". India has every right to
                    defend itself against Pak aggression.
                    The temple site that you mention is fairly important
                    to many hindus. How long do you think it would take
                    muslims to tear down a church or synagouge in mecca?
                    \_ So you think it's ok that people not even born in 48 or
                       71 get butchered today because of what happened then?
                       And then you try to equate muslims trying to live in
                       peace in a muslim area with hamas?  you're nuts.  The
                       temple site is no mecca.  They're a bunch of whackos.
              \_ Sadly, it also means the Pakistanis are going to get nuked.
                 The world will finally see what happens when two nuclear
                 powers decide to annihilate each other.  It's going to be a
                 fucking nightmare.                     -mice
                    \_ Not if India strikes first and destroy all of Pakistans
                       25 warheads.
                       \_ This is laughable.  They stand zero chance of
                          taking out 3 dozen nukes with their 5 dozen nukes.
                          Neither of them has enough firepower to do any such
                          thing.  We're not talking the US/Soviets during the
                          cold war with 25,000+ warheads each.  These clowns
                          have *maybe* 150 between them which is only just
                          enough to seriously fuck each other up real real bad.
                 \_ Only if you're Pakistani or Indian and depending on the
                    winds and fallout levels a neighboring nation.  The rest
                    of us get the benefits of lots of emergency/experimental
                    medical procedures practiced on other people and it'll be
                    a big boon for the construction and cleanup companies here
                    and in Europe & Japan.  Too bad about the tea though.
                    \_ There's no danger of a nuclear winter?  And who is going
                       to pay the cleanup companies?
                       \_ 1: no. they dont have enough nukes between them to
                          make a nuclear summer.  2: your tax dollars, duh.
                          \_ 2: Exactly my point.  We won't benefit from it
                                because even though they use our cleanup
                                companies, they use our money to pay for it.
                    \_ Ah, so human life has no value...
                       \_ Dude, you've bee soooo bated. Ouch.
                          \_ Heh I thought the "too bad about the tea" was a
                             big give away.  I'll try harder to make it more
                             obvious next time.  :-)
                       \_ It does.  It's something like $96 in chemicals and
                          water.  Hardly anything worth getting upset about.
2002/4/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Science/Space] UID:24610 Activity:nil
4/26    http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020425.html
        Cringely's baby son dead. SIDS.
        \-well at least bill gates seems to allocate is humanitarian dollars
          intelligetly. i dont see why there isnt a "mkt solution" to this
          when he says "nobody will benefit from this, pls donate to my
          cause". something like the lbl cheap UV-based water filter.
          see e.g. http://www.lbl.gov/wonder/gadgil-2.html is a much better
          cause.  --psb
          \_ Bill Gates = PR and a job for his dad.
2002/2/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23948 Activity:high
2/21    "BUSH'S VIETNAM"
        \_ Ted Rall should stick to drawing mediocre comic strips.  Or see
           somebody about getting his medication changed.
2001/12/31 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23416 Activity:very high
12/30   Indians only days away from full mobility.  Pakistan mobile now and
        might launch first strike.  Both sides moving missiles near front.
        Stop deleting this.  Nuclear war is just as important as an arcade
        in the South bay: a post you didn't delete.
        \_ personally, i never delete posts, but i can see their point.
           there are thousands of news sources out there a click away
           with every different viewpoint, language, and depth of detail,
           and hundreds of places this can be debated online. political threads
           like this on the motd usually end up as heated debates of very
           long posts between just two people, which are not fun to read.
           since most of us read the motd for fun, that means your post
        \_ A nuclear conflict there might not be so bad.  Their limited
           capability means the damage will be constrained within
           Asia.  A war can semi-permanently set back both countries and
           possibly China, which might not be a bad thing.  India, although
           currently it pretends to be pro-US, eventually will become a bigger
           threat with a more functional government and military and less
           fondness for western ideas.
           \_ Not so bad?  You are such a humanitarian...
           \_ Yawn. This has been going on in Korea for 50 years.
        \_ Hey, thanks for the news!  Now that the motd's turned into World
           News Now, I don't have to go to the effort of firing up my Web
           browser.  Now, *does* anyone have the address of a good arcade in
           the South Bay?  If we're all going to be annihilated in a nuclear
           firestorm, I wanna go out having the most fun that a CS major can
2001/12/31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23409 Activity:nil
12/30   India & Pakistan edge ever closer to war.  URLs everywhere, go to
        your favorite news service.
2001/12/22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23351 Activity:nil
12/2    India and Pakistan on edge of war.  This is looking more serious
        than previous sable rattling.  I guess sending suicide commandos to
        wipe out the other side's parliament can get them a bit ticked off.
2001/11/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:23051 Activity:moderate
11/14   The Jews did it with inside help from the CIA, coordination from Elvis
        on the mothership hidden behind the moon and Bigfoot was there on the
        ground in his invisibility suit painting the targets with lasers.
        \_ but what about the reverse-vampires?
           \_ Who told you about the reverse-vampires?  Now you'll have to die.
              \_ did anyone here besides me read Thrasher magazine in the
                 early 90's?  there were alot of funny letters from vampire
                 skaters.  ah the good old days.
2001/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22496 Activity:very high
9/17    Can anyone give a brief (<1 page) description (biased or not) or url
        of why Russia wanted control over Afghanistan for so long?
        \_ They wanted to then take Pakistan, warm water port in the Indian
           \_ With the US sphere of influence decreased because of the Iranian
              revolution they jumped at the chance of increasing their sphere
              of influence in the Region.
        \_ Because 1) Brezhnev was an idiot. 2) Not Russia particularly but USSR
           was willing to offer economic and military help to all anti-US,
           populist, socialist, or communist governments around the world
           (e.g. Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc). With Afganistan Brezhnev went
           too far and ordered military invasion. Russians quickly found their
           Vietnam in Afganistan and were forced to pull out of this country in
           the late 80s mostly because of protests at home.
           \- largest deposit of Scandium inthe world. --psb
           \_ "protest at home" in a communist country?  And the govt actually
              let them live?  And listened to them?
              \_ Little old ladies carrying pictures of their sons as I recall.
           \_ Well, that was in the late 1980s during the glastnost and
              perestroika at which point freedom of speech was being encouraged
              by Gorbachev's government.
        \_ By the way, does anyone remember the title of the movie about a
           Russian tank crew that got lost in Afganistan?
           \_ Probably "The Beast" (1998) with Jason Patric of The Lost Boys fame
           \_ Rambo III ?
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:36282 Activity:nil
9/12    Something to think about:
        Not that this changes the fact that we should nuke everything
        from palestine to pakistan and be done with the muslim menace
        \_ That's right, if i remember my Bible correctly, didn't
           Christ himself give the thumbs up to eye-for-an-eye argument?
           \_ You're not remembering it correctly. Try reading it again.
              He advocated "turning the other cheek."
              \_ irony
           Killing all brown people in the world is the best and only
           solution. And don't forget to nuke Indonesia and Turkey while
           solution. And don't forget to nuke Malaysia and Turkey while
           you're at it.
           \_ Idiots like gandhi who believed that "an eye for an eye
              makes the whole world blind" are the reason we are in
              this situation.  The fruits of years of diplomacy and
              concilliation and consideration were reaped yesterday.
              Now is the time for action not moderation and compassion.
              \_ HAHAHAHHHHH!!!    When have we EVER had a single DAY
                 of concilliation or consideration in our foreign policy?
                 Read up on Chile, El Salvador, Iraq, et al.  It's sentiment
                 like this that keeps Kissinger out of the Hague.
                 \_ Our policy of toleration of egypt, syria, jordan,
                    iraq, iran, the sudan, wimpiness in korean and
                    vietnam, detente are all the result of "diplomats".
                    If we had trusted our military leaders, we would
                    not be in this situation now.
                    \_ You're right.  We'd be neck deep in blood and no
                       better off.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22404 Activity:high
9/12    Bush to declare a Jihad against Mohammedian terrorism!
        \_ Motd poll: Should we "nuke and pave" everything between
           jerusalem and kashmir (ie the 90% of the muslim world)
           in order to solve this problem forever?
           \_ that wouldn't have stopped oklahoma city or the Tokyo sarin
              gas attack.
              \_ By this problem, I mean the muslim terrorist jihad
                 problem. I think that we can deal with the other
                 problems as law enforcement issues. This is bigger
                 than law enforcement. The muslim race is threat to
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be eliminated
                 from the face of the earth.
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be destroyed.
                 problems as law enforcement issues, but this problem
                 is bigger than law enforcement. The muslim race is
                 threat to peace, freedom, prosperity and civilization
                 and must be eliminated from the face of the earth.
                 \_ You need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.
                 \_ We need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.  Oh, and
                    don't forget India.
                    don't forget India and its 100 million mullahs!
                    \_ India?
                    \_ India?  You mean Pakistan?
                    \_ And the Hsinjiang (sp?) province in China too.
           YES: .
           NO:  ..
                \_ Wow, chamberlain lives!
                   \_ Don't be an idiot.
2001/8/8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22049 Activity:insanely high
8/8     "Till caste do us apart...":
                \- article which focus on these kinds of anomalous behavior
                really distort external perception of a community. If the
                only news someone got of life in the american south were
                stories of lynchings, cross burnings, and black men dragged
                along the street by good old boys in pickup trucks, you would
                certainly get a wildly innaccurate view of what life was like
                in the south. --psb
                \_ how come you aren't "ok tnx"ing people anymore?
        \_ Actions, not birth, dictates ones caste. Those who fail to
           see this are doomed to commit acts such as the ones mentioned
           in this article. Neither the killed nor the killers acted
           in a manner consistent with being a Brahmin.
           \_ Birth dictates caste in all the sources I've seen. It's
              institutionalized, religious racism. Trying to deny that is
              rewriting history.
              rewriting history. Your attempts at rationalizing it don't get
              around the central issue. How does one enter the higher caste?
              Only through the acceptance of that caste? Unlikely. Maybe they
              would and maybe they wouldn't, but clearly the theory goes that
              depending on your actions you are reborn into the different caste.
              There is no possible way you can spin that to my satisfaction.
              Blacks may be reborn as whites as long as they act like whites
              enough, and if they're really white, maybe they'll be accepted
              by the whites as an honorary white. Until then, the blacks should
              accept their sacred roles as ho's, crack dealers, and rappers.
              With enough religious trappings, it probably works better than
              apartheid. After all, religion is the most proven form of mind
           \_ What is the "Jat" caste?
                           \_ Probably an untouchable.
                              \- have you ever though of not flapping your
                              \- you are jumping to conclusions. "jat" probably
                              in this context means caste, but it can also be a
                              generic term for class or kind. it can also be a
                              root for "best", mean a birth. it is the root of
                              a lot of difficult to translate words and
                              expressions. --psb
             \_ Actions in previous life dictate birth in next.
             \_ It is obvious you know very little about indian religion
                or scripture. The characteristics of caste are clearly
                described in the Gita and Krshna states that those who
                adhere to the rules of a given caste verily become members
                of that caste. There are several examples in the stories
                of the Upanishads, the lives of the Alvars and the Ramayana.
                Consider the case of Viswamithra, although we has born a
                warrior, he ultimately transcended that nature to become
                a Brahmarishi (the highest type of Brahmin).
                Also you may wish to consider the life and teachings of
                Sri Ramanuja whose greatest teacher was a man from the
                "lowest" caste, illustrating that caste is meaningless
                for true devotees of the lord. Ramanuja readily converted
                people from all castes and made them Brahmins with the
                only requirement being that they live as Brahmins live.
                BTW, Ramanuja lived over a thousand years ago so you
                can't tell me that this is a new development.
                \_ Is that why there are so many fake "brahmin" arseholes
                   around?  - a Brahmarishi.
                              \_ On average achieving this title takes
                                 several hundred thousand years of
                                 meditiation. Not even psb is that old.
                                 \_ You are wrong.  For some, enlightenment
                                    comes in a flash.
                   \_ I don't know what you mean by fake brahmins. The
                      vast majority of brahmins you meet are not related
                      to Ramanuja's followers (Iyengars, of which there
                      are less than a million world wide). In fact most
                      traditional brahmins don't like Iyengars because
                      they have revolutionary ideas like non discrimination
                      based on caste or creed.
                      \_ So all these born "brahmins" are not necessarily true
                         brahmins?  Otherwise, how do you explain the number
                         of arseholes among them?
2001/7/20 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:21884 Activity:very high
7/19    Yet more people with too much time on there hands:
        \_ Is India even called "India" in India?  --PeterM
           \_ Sure, they all speak English anyway (there's no one "Indian"
              language.) The word comes from the Indus River, or Sindhu,
              also the word Hindu, and Hindustan. But it's irrelevant;
              they seem to think it's insulting on the principle, like
              if you named a pet dogshit France, even though the French
              don't call themselves France.
           \_ Bharath is the real name for "India". Hindu is also not
              a indian word, it is a arabic term invented by muslim
        \_ Are they suggesting that our pres should get a lion instead?
           \_ ^t a^t eaten by a
2001/7/9 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:21740 Activity:nil
7/8     Speaking of M$, Any thoughts on why MSFT can't seem to get their
        instant messanger service running?
          I would think that with a co like MSFT the backup redundency
        would basically mean they can crash the entire system and it
        would still work within a day when they activate the mirror
        service sitting in line india or something-- but they have just
        been dead for a week now...
2001/6/18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:21559 Activity:nil
6/18    [References to Vietnam censored]
2001/1/29-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:20463 Activity:high
1/29    How come whenever a big earthquake happens in a country, it always
        takes several days before other countries start to send rescue teams
        to help out?  (Turkey, Taiwan, India, ...)  Don't they realize most of
        the trapped would be dead by then?
        \_ Because they don't have rescue teams sitting around doing nothing
           but waiting to leave the instant a quake hits.  Because it takes
           12-24 hours to fly to the other side of the world.  Because going
           \_ Uh.  Nations cannot be affluent.  Citizens can be affluent.
                \_ Uh. Both can.
                   \_ Uh, no bitch.
                      \_ Win a lot of arguments?
                      \_ The wester dictionary uses it in the example:
                         <our affluent society>
           in before the local government asks for help is an act of war.
           Because you just don't have the brain cells to comprehend.
           \_ But somehow those rescue teams have time to talk to the press
              and post for pictures.
              and pose for pictures.
        \_ Strangely, the United States and Japan (two of the more
           affluent nations in the world) sent a whopping $1 million
           to help out in the disaster.
           \_ ah yes, and Bill Gates who is worth over 60 billion dollars
              donates a WHOPPING 1 million dollar to the AIDs research,
              paid over a period of 3 years. What a philanthropist he is.
                   \- maybe he thinks there are bigger priorities than
                   AIDS research ... which is after all quite heavily funded
                   by the US govt. --psb
                   \_ Bill donates quite a bit more to other causes and has
                        said he is leaving most of his fortune to charity when
                        he dies, not his kids.
              \_ Bill Gates owes you nothing.
              \_ I thought it was 100 million and I agree he owes you
                 \_ he owes me the $300 he grifted on the POS products
                    he sold me in the last 2 decades (plus tax and
                    compounding interest in the Nasdaq). In total,
                    he owes me several thousand dollars.
                        \_ I wasn't aware that the Nasdaq paid compounding
                                interest. Maybe you would have bought high
                                and sold low....
        \_ No, those are RELIEF planes not a military invasion!  Really!
        \_ "We'd like you to help, but the runways are sorta broken to
            pieces right now....  Please don't try to land, our hospital
            space is overcommitted already."
            \_ "...so maybe you could just sorta' crash your planes in some
               open space somewhere near the epicenter, and we can, you know,
               salvage what we need from the wreckage..."
2001/1/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Finance/Investment] UID:20355 Activity:moderate
1/17    Next dot com demise-- WebVan. News at 11.
        \_ tell us more... or tell http://fuckedcompany.com
           \_ WebVan still has over $100 million in the bank, it's not
              near doom yet.  There are questions about its viability in
              the mid-term.  -tom
        \_ Put your money down.  Sell short.
           \_ peon investors can't short stocks trading below $5.  -tom
           \_ peeon investors can't short stocks trading below $5.  -tom
                \_ well, not entirely true.  between $1 and $5, you just
                   have lowered margin requirements.  below $1, your
                   statement is true.  (so it's still true for WBVN)
2000/12/22-27 [Consumer/GPS, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:20160 Activity:low
12/22   I am going on a trip to India soon.  Any recommendation for
        an inexpensive but decent GPS?  I will also use it for future
        trekking and hiking trip, both foreign and domestic.
        \- see http://joe.mehaffey.com and the sat-nav news group. you can
        probably get a faily basic one for $100-150. you canb also search the
        walllogs. these days i think you are basically paying for storage
        capacity and some users features ... not so much accuracy or
        sensitivity. --psb
        \_ Garmin G12 was $150 2 years ago, will do anything you need.  Newer
           Etrex model is half the size, same sort of pricing.
        \_ Magellan 310 on sale at Fry's for $89.95.  Also, if you have
           one of the higher level Palms, you can get a GPS attachment
           for $130 or so.
           \- one additional comment: i think GPSes are still pretty primitive
           in terms of user interface and are still geek toys. are you sure
           disposable income not to worry about a $100 here or there].--psb
           you want one? most geeks into geek toys tend to want the ones
           with all the features and not the low end ones [and have the
           disposable income not to worry about a $100 here or there].
           they also suck a lot of batteries, often dont work that well under
           tree cover without an ext antenna, so if you dont make a serious
           commitment to them, might not be worth taking at all. as with
           almost all consumer electronics, tomorrow it will be better and
           cheaper. --psb, former Garmin III+ owner recently return from india
2000/10/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Recreation/Media] UID:19563 Activity:high
10/25   What exactly is "B-Movie"?  Thx.
        \_ 2 interpretations: Budget Movie (low budget)
           or a movie they show for free when you see the A movie.
           \_ Sorry, what's "A movie" then?
                  \_ the movie you paid for (like when cartoons were free
                     because you paid for the main movie.)
                \_ a movie is a motion picture. duh.
           \_ The general usage (in the States) is "Shitty, low budget
              film".  A corrolary to that is the increasingly popular
              "DTV--Direct To Video".  --sowings
        \_ A very, very nice "new wave" band...sorta dark-sounding.
           Also, see the films of John Waters or Roger Corman,
           and maybe the live-action version of The Guyver.
           \_ McGuyver?
        \_ in some asian countries, A means Adult (porn)
            \_ I thought that was H as in Hentai, not A as in Adult.
               B doesn't have any significance (AFAIK), but R usually
               means Romance.
               \_ you mean it DOESNT mean "boobs"?
               \_ you would think this if you interpreted
                  "some asian countries" as only refering to japan
                  \_ Okay, I am a ignorant American, what countries
                     does this refer to?
                     \_ Japan, Indonesia and Pakistan only.
                        \_ India isn't a Asian country but Pakistan
                           is? Confirms what I knew all along, Indians
                           are really WHITE not ASIAN.
                           \_ Indians aren't white, they are Aryan /
                              indo-European (I think). In general, they
                              are quite dark.
2000/8/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:18994 Activity:high
8/15    Another india-related question.  So why are some indians veggie-eaters
        while others are meat-eaters?  Is it because of caste?  The higher
        up you go the more meat you consume?
        \_ Don't be stupid. It's a free country, too.
           \_ Uh. Wrong.
           \_ But meat there is not free.
              \_ Being stupid shouldn't be free either, please send me $10
        \_ The higher up you go the less meat you consume. Brahmin's consume
           no meat.
        \_ Eat more cows, save the atmosphere.  -John
2000/8/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:18989 Activity:very high
8/14    Is it ok to ask an indian guy/gal what his/her caste is?  Or is that
        considered a taboo topic?  I'm just curious about what this person's
        pecking order is back in india.
        \- i think it is pretty tacky. might be ok if you know the person
        pretty well and are talking about "growing up in india" or something
        like that, but other i dont think you should. you can however often
        tell from the last name. --psb
           \_ Esp. south indian last names and some north indian names.
        \_ Brahmin.  Trust me.
           \_ Yeah Brahmin's are at the top. They are the best! - Brahmin.
        \_ brahmin, kshtryia, vishia, shudra, where brahmin's are on top.
           Some basic rules are:

           1. Upgrades are available only for women via marriage. A lower
              caste woman marrying an upper caste man gets upgraded to the
              man's caste. (This is a progressive rule that is not yet
              accepted by orthodox hindus)

           2. Upgrades are not available for men. A lower caste man
              marrying an upper caste woman, downgrades the woman's caste.

           3. Downgrades are always possible based on behavior (ie being
              born into a caste does not qualify you for permanent membership
              in that caste). If your behavior deviates from the norm for your
              caste you will be downgraded, usually to untouchable which is
              lower than the lowest. (This is a generally accepted rule by
              all but the most bigoted and orthodox brahmins)
           \_ Are you a brahmin?
              \_ yes. -tjb
        \_ [lengthy un-asked-for crap deleted]
           I believe that psb is right, most of the people in India are not
           brahmins and are pretty sensitive about this fact. Many of the
           people you'll meet in this country are brahmins (at least by birth)
           so they won't be as sensitive. In the past only brahmins had the
           qualifications to immigrate to this country in large numbers, but
           in recent years that's changed.
                \_ You are an idiot.  Most intelligent people from India that
                   I had met don't care about their former caste.  Currently
                   in India itself it is very advantageous to be one of the
                   lower castes because there is affirmative action for them.
                   It is currently next to impossible to enroll in a good
                   university as a Brahmin or a Shatria.
                        \- this is misleading. --psb
                           \_ I am getting this straight from my indian
                              friends.  Where do you get your information,
                \- this last comment really isnt true. immigrants from
                differnt parts of india and at differnt periods of time
                have had very differnt characteristics. e.g. since the 60s
                most of the bengalis [men] are civil/mech/electrical
                engineers. there was also a large influx of indian doctors
                starting in teh 70s. this is not at all true of the people
                from say the punjab are who came over in the earlier part of
                the century ... i believe many of them worked in the agri-
                cultural sector. --psb
                \_ Are you a brahmin?
                   \_ i think he's from a uniquely american caste known
                      as "admin".
                      \_ Generally those of a lower uid are of higher caste.
                          \_ that's because of their closeness to
2000/3/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:17892 Activity:very high
3/30    I don't necessarily have a problem with affirmative action,
        but I think it's strange that some companies have affirmative
        action programs AND claim not to discriminate based on race.
        Affirmative action specifically discrimates in favor of certain
        races for an allegedly good cause, but it still discriminates.
        It seems like these companies should either say the have
        affirmative action progromas or say they don't discriminate
        based on race but not both.  What do other people think?  I
        am missing something or do most corporations and universities
        have contradictory policies?
        \_ If a particular race maintains a percentage of the population
           in general and a company tries to maintain that same representation
           in its work force, is that discrimination, or just attempting to
           keep the playing field equal?
        \_ If society maintains an unfair playing field by not providing
           funding towards lower income communities so we get a perminant
           lower class since they have no opportunity for education and
           thus no chance at a decently paying job, where would you try
           and create equal footing for all? Give more money to schools
           and social programs, have hiring preferences for unqualified
           individuals or build prisions?
        \_ Such companies can be sued (likely successfully) for discrimination.
        \_ Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the whacky left.
           It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich white people feel
           better about themselves at the expense of others.  It also keeps
           the blacks from rioting too often.
        \_ do you believe in AA based on income? or childhood
           living conditions?
           \_ I thought AA was a great thing. It helped me get over my
              alcholism. There should be an anonymous club for every other
              controlled substance.
           \_ Only merit should differentiate people.
             \_ how come white people with less merit before AA got the jobs?
                \_ though I commiserate with the sentiment, I think this point
                   is, at best, specious without some kind of justification.
                   \_ I don't see any 'sentiment' here, just a racist remark.
                      \_ If you see a racist remark, then you see a sentiment.
                         Learn the language before you try to split hairs.
                      \_ I'm just saying that it's hard to call it an
                         egalitarian society if the system is in any way
                         biased against a significant portion of the
                         \_ Of course it is.  I am more biased against blacks
                         than whites because blacks robbed me and beat me up
                         a lot more often than whites.  I am merely learning
                         from data.  Would you rather I _wasn't_ biased against
                         them?  And don't give me this 'they are products of
                         an unfavorable environment' shit.  People have free
           \_ Your views on war are somewhat naive.  The idea in war is
              to destroy your opponents will and ability to fight by any means
              necessary.  If a high body count lands you this goal, great.
              Realistically, though, a high body count is very unlikely to
              be sufficient.  Look at Vietnam: the US killed something like
              10 times as many people as it sustained in casualties.  But
              the NVA were still willing to fight, long after American
              determination petered out due to POLITICAL and SOCIAL pressures.
           \_ [vietnam crap deleted]  oops.  sorry.
                         will.  They are not products of their environment.
                         Some just choose to be nasty.
                         \_ Yer walking home in the middle of the night and
                            you see a group of
                            (1) young black men in dark puffy jackets
                            \_ actually, you shouldn't feel ashamed about this
                             stereotype.  I was in a hurry to see my
                            friend one saturday evening and pay him back the
                            money i owed him ($40).  I passed a bunch of
                            young black men in dark puffy jackets,  although my
                            first instinct was to hang back and let them
                            walk ahead.  Anyhow, I pass them, I hear a bunch
                                           respect.  I made up my mind about
                                           such people on a case by case basis.
                                           But if forced to generalized about
                            of snickers behind me, didn't pay attention to it.
                            Anyhow...I get to the darkness of the bridge
                            at Moffitt Library, and suddenly hear rapid
                            footsteps behind me and I realize I am totally
                            fucked.  Before I have a chance to turn around
                            these same fuckers that I passed, one of them
                            puts an armlock around my neck and demands
                            my money.  and you know the rest...

                            what makes me angry is that they laughed when
                            they left, and i had to deal with a sore neck
                            from getting choked really hard and the
                            shitty task of canceling all my credit cards.
                            and of course the feeling of being violated..
                            i was already in a pissed off mood.  and
                            this happened at 10:30 p.m., northside...
                            be especially careful during summer folks,
                            and pay attention to those stereotypes, they're
                            not entirely a bad thing....

                            (2) young, bald white men in torn leather jackets
                                and spiky hair
                                \_ How can you be bald and have spiky hair
                                   at the same time?  Sounds like a good
                                   depiction of Cafe Berlin.
                            (3) computer geeks

                            I think it's safe to say that most white people
                            fear 1 > 2, and most black people fear 2 > 1.
                            I think the poster above is white.
                         \_ That's an extremely ego-centric and short sighted
                            view point that sounds much too focused on self-pity
                            to be real.  Are you trolling?
                            \_ I am not trolling.  I care about myself more
                               than about people who beat me up.  I am sorry
                               if this is perceived as ego-centric.
                               -- original poster
                               \_ *sigh*  Ever heard of objectivity?  It's
                                  kind of useful when devising laws that apply
                                  to _everyone_ and not just your victimized
                                  little self.
                                  \_ I thought it was blacks who were bitching
                                  about being 'victimized.'  I am not bitching
                                  I am just telling you why _I_ personally
                                  discriminate against blacks.
                                     \_ Two wrongs don't make a right? *shrug*
                                        I still think I'm being trolled, but
                                        whatever.  You might want to learn
                                        how to format your motd posts
                                        correctly, though.
                                        \_ It really isn't a troll. I have
                                           worked with intelligent, successful
                                           black people, whom I admire and
                                           respect.  I have made up my mind
                                           about such people on a case by case
                                           But if forced to generalize about
                                           blacks as a whole, my view will be
                                           negative, based on my past
                                           experiences with blacks as a whole.
                                           \_ You have experience with blacks as
                                              a whole?  Wow.  How much time did
                                              it take to meet all of them.  Or
                                              did you mean that you had
                                              experience with a statistically
                                              significant random subset of
                                              \_ I generalize data that I have.
                                                 If there is more data, I will
                                                 change my opinion, if the data
                                                 tells me to.  If you don't
                                                 like my opinion argue with my
                            \_ Actually, it sounds more real than troll to me.
                               It has a thread of logic.
                         \_ Were they right-handed or left-handed?  Surely
                            you're more biased against righties or lefties as a
                            result, right?
                            \_ The aforementioned acts were committed by blacks
                            far more often than is warranted by the relative
                            percentage of blacks in the general population.
                    \_ actually, it's historically backed.
                       \_ What is historically backed?  This 'sentiment' is not
                          even semantically valid.  Less merit than who?
                \_ Less merit than who?
                  \_ what about white only bathrooms?
                     \_ What about green-only trolls?
        \_ <SARCASM>
           It's not right to kill people, but in war the idea is to kill
           as many people as possible.  What do other people thing?  Am
           I missing something or does society have contradictory mores?
           </SARCASM> (Markup was necessary to reduce further confusion.)
           \_ [vietnam crap deleted]  Oops.  Missed the sarcasm.  Sorry.
        \_ Short answer:  It's not federally-defined "discrimination" if
           it's affirmative action.  The word when used in HR policy has
           the federal meaning.
            \_ i.e. "Welcome to New Thought as created and promoted by the
                whacky left. It doesn't have to make sense, just make rich
                white people feel better about themselves at the expense
                of others.  It also keeps the blacks from rioting too
                \_ Notice that short answer was more fact than opinion based.
                   \_ Notice that the short answer obsequiously (or
                      perhaps conspiratorially) accepts that the government
                      can redefine english words in whatever way happens
                      to fit thier political agenda or best obscures
                      (contradicts) reality despite all/any reason.
                      \_ ^redefine^add a legal definition to
                         Please reflect on the relative benefit of AA in
                         the 1960s and whether AA is a successful policy
                         today, in 50 words or less.
                          \_ The benefit (or lack) of AA is irrelevant to
                             *my* criticism of the perversion of the
                             language.  What is so damn hard about
                             actually saying/writing what is meant?  That
                             society has a "legal definition" of a word
                             that is actually contradictory to the
                             original definition is an obvious sign of
                             intellectual/legal dishonosty and/or sloth.
                             \_ I agree.  This is the point I was addressing
                                when I started the thread.  Whether or not
                                AA is good is independant of the fact that
                                Equal Opportunity statements are contradictory
                                to AA.  Does anyone have a response to this
                                abuse of language issue?  I'm not trolling.
                                It's just that the AA policy and the
                                Equal Opprutnity statements which every
                                organization makes seem blatantly
                                contradictory.  When something that seems
                                so obviously wrong is accepted without
                                question it makes me wonder if I'm missing
                                an important point.  Therefore, I would like
                                to see a response or URL making the case
                                for the other side of the issue.  Thanks.
                             \_ Please reflect on why it's okay for black
                                people to make jokes about black people
                                and white people, but not okay for white
                                people to joke about black people, in
                                50 words or less.
1998/5/29-30 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:14153 Activity:moderate
5/29  Stupid move by India.  Supposedly they're a year away from fitting
      a nuclear warhead to a missile.  Someone's gonna get nuked.  -mlee
      \_ Didn't Pakistan just announce yesterday they already have a nuke
         missile ready and aimed at India?
      \_ Meanwhile 500 people die in India from the heat.
        \_ and a couple hundred million others don't have enough to eat
           \_ Why do you think they feel such a need to expand? --dim
                \_ they don't go hungry for lack of land, the causes
                 are political
           \_ I can't think of a quicker way to get rid of excess population
              than a little nuclear war.  I say let them have at it!  We
              shoulda saved them the trouble and just sold them the nukes.
        \_ only 500?  In a country of 1+ billion, who noticed?
1998/3/24 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:13856 Activity:insanely high
3/24    I know some Indian friends who are BIG AND BUFF like football players,
        and some even have blue/hazzle eyes. I sware they almost look white!!!
                                                 \_ swear
        Why are a lot of Indians like that? (this is a serious question!)
        \_ Mutations as a result of the massive radiation and pollution
           released by British experiments on the fusion reactor from an
           alien starship that crash-landed in the Ganges River valley during
           the winter of 1945.
           \_ That's right.  In fact, the reason that they decided to make
              India independent wasn't Gandhi . . . During the course of their
              experiments, they created a hole in the space-time continuum
              that threatened to SWALLOW THE ENTIRE BRITISH EMPIRE WHOLE!
              The only way to avoid this was to make sure that India was no
              longer a part of the British Empire.  That way, if the hole
              expanded beyond their control, India would be lost, but the
              Empire would be safe.  Hail Brittania!
                \_ is it just me or does the motd get dumber every day? -aspo
                   \_Would you like to see Brittania rule again, my friend?
                     All you have to do is follow the worms.
                      \_ Brittania rules the waves!
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Foreign:Asia:Others: