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2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2006/9/16-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/SW/Security] UID:44403 Activity:nil
9/15    Software in China helps w/ sentencing:
        http://news.com.com/2102-1012_3-6115154.html?tag=st.util.print
        "The software can avoid abuse of discretionary power of judges as a
         result of corruption or insufficient training."
        \_ What about the verdict part?
           \_ That's easy:
              if(political_activist || causing trouble) guilty=true;
2006/9/5-7 [Reference/Celebration, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:44280 Activity:moderate
9/5     Who is Tawei Liao?
        \_ http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~tawei
           http://ucsee.eecs.berkeley.edu/~tawei
           \_ Nice fake web sites.
           \_ Uh, aren't these 2 different people named Tawei?
              \_ These two pages above are owned by the same guy who is
                 trying hide his embarrasing past from his clients by
                 creating ficticious characters and displaying pictures
                 that don't resemble him. Google for his full name and
                 you'll see the truth.
                 \_ What's his full name? Googling for "Tawei Liao" is not
                    turning up anything interesting.
                    \_ That's because he's not particularly interesting.
        \_ A fag.
           \_ How do you know?  Have you fucked him?
              have you watched him fuck a man?
              \_ Yeah.  I watched you get buttfucked by him.  Huh huh.
                 Huh huh.  Huh huh.  -beavis & butthead
2006/8/30-9/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:44202 Activity:moderate
8/30    I got invited to a Chinese wedding. I'm a white boy. What are
        the protocols, especially with regard to gift giving? I know
        about the red envelopes, but how much money and when? Anything
        else I should know?
        \_ What color is their wedding invitation?
           If the wedding invitation is white or ivory, then, you can just
           buy something in the wedding registry treat them as "American."
           If the wedding invitation is bright red, then, you should seriously
           consider give out cash.
           The color wedding invitation is a good indicator how "traditional"
           the couple wants their wedding to be.  Being completely red is a
           good indication that they are going for the "traditional" route.
           Being completely white is a good indication that they are going
           for American style, as Chinese usually reserve white for funerals.
           If they have wedding registry somewhere, you could just buy
           something from there without offending anyone regardless the color
           of invitation.  If you hunch is telling you should give cash, the
           the general rule of thumb is between $100 - $200+.  Avoid $250,
           $140, $240.   As for how you dispense the cash.  The hard way is
           go to a 99 Ranch Market and buy red envelops and put money in there.
           The easy way is just buy a wedding card and stuck money in there.
           The money is usually collect right before the banquet starts.
           Contrary to what most of posting on motd, there is not much
           serious taboos here.  China is a vast land and regional culture
           within China differs a great deal.  Again, it depends upon the
           the color of invitation.  If you sense that this is going to be
           a "traditional" wedding, Some of more serious things are:
           1. don't give knives or weapons for gift. Instrutment of the death
           is generally regards as unlucky by nature for the Chinese.
           2. avoid clocks
           3. if you give away cash, REMEMBER to BRING IT.  one of the big
           taboo not mentioned in motd is that Chinese don't take raincheck
           for wedding gifts.  it is consider unlucky.
           4. it is ok to wear white or black, just not *ALL* white or
           *ALL* black (white suit with colored tie is ok)
                                                kngharv
           \_ Thanks for the response. As below, the invitation is a red
              traditional-looking one. So I should give $99 ideally?
              \_ that is fine.  good enough.  really appreciate the fact that
                 you are being sensitive about other's culture.
              As for suits, what if I wear a black suit with a colored tie?
              \_ The fact that you're asking so many questions is an
                 indication that you're intimidated by the culture. I can
                 assure you that you're probably over doing it. Just give
                 cash in red envelopes (which you can buy from Ranch 99) and
                 give 99, 88, 188, 288, whatever. If you REALLY want to
                 impress the parents, write a few words in Chinese and learn
                 a few phrases. By doing so, they will be pleasantly
                 surprised and remember you as the smart white kid who
                 is knowledgeable and appreciative of the Chinese culture.
                 They'll also probably remember your face and name forever
                 since very few whites even attempt to understand them. Make
                 sure you learn the right tongue though-- don't speak
                 Mandarin if they're Cantonese, and vice versa.
                 BTW "9" rhymes with longevity which is a blessing. 8 is also
                 very good. Everything should be in pairs. You want to pair
                 99 or 88 or some sort. Keep in mind that Chinese banquets
                 usually cost between $500-$1000/table (depending on seafood
                 quality, how exotic the seafood is, how prestigious the
                 place is), and each table sits 10 people. Assume $500/table,
                 that's $50/person, so you should give at least that much if
                 you're attending yourself, and double the amount if you're
                 bringing a guest. As long as you can help them break even,
                 you're totally cool. And if you can learn a phrase or two
                 and show her parents that you're a cultured, smart,
                 sophisticated multilingual man and not some horny white
                 dude, they'll wish their daughter is marrying you instead.
                 Good luck and tell us how it goes ok?          -Chinese
                 \_ I'm not intimidated. I just like to do as the Romans
                    do when I'm in Rome. I find it interesting. I don't
                    know much about Chinese culture.
                    \_ Is it better to say I dont know any Chinese than to
                       speak fake Chinese?  A friend of mine used to speak
                       to his chinese girlfiend's parents in fake Chinese
                       to his Chinese girlfiend's parents in fake Chinese
                       over the phone.
        \_ need more info from you. Are the hosts white washed asians or
           traditional asians? What type of Chinese?
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=42989
        \_ Search for Wedding Tips: http://tinyurl.com/kzsav
        \_ need more info from you. Are the hosts white washed asians or
           traditional asians? What type of Chinese (HK/Mainland/Taiwan/
           Singapore/Malaysian)? If you assume all Chinese people are the
           same YOU ARE IGNORANT.
           \_ I have no idea. I know the groom, who is also caucasian. I
              don't know him that well either. His bride-to-be's parents
              mailed me a traditional-looking red invitation and the
              reception will be at a traditional Chinese seafood restaurant.
              \_ You have an easy case. Her parents are already disappointed
                 and thus their expectations will be very low. I mean their
                 rebellious daughter married a whity! They will expect
                 every single thousand-year-old traditions to be broken by
                 white people who are known to break them over and over
                 again. So you're cool. Go ahead and do whatever you want.
                 I recommend you buy them nice knife sets, preferably with
                 FOUR sharp knifes that are easily accessible in the
                 kitchen. The knives will be handy when they get into fights
                 7 years from now.  -Chinese
                 \_ thousand year old traditions?  you know Chinese is made
                    of hundreds, if not thoussands of tribes, right? you know
                    inter-racial marriage has been going on for 3000-4000
                    years, right?  virtually all Chinese are mutts of some
                    sort.
                        \_ Then how come they all look the same to me?
                    \_ But traditions are passed down the male line.  When a
                       woman marries a man of a different "race", she adopts
                       the tradition of the man's "race".
                       \_ So you're saying that her tradition will soon be
                          replaced with "Beer and football on Sundays"?
                 \_ Bravo!  Bravo!  That was magnificent.
                 \_ Fuck you, you racist piece of shit.
                        \_ Calm down, whitey.  It's all true.
                           \_ No, fuck you.  Seriously.  There are plenty
                              of white supremacist christians, black
                              supremacist muslims, nordic supremacist
                              pegans, racist japanese nationalists, and
                              so on and so on out there in the world,
                              but *none* of them ever appear on the motd,
                              or anywhere else in civilized company in
                              this country.  Yet somehow when the racist
                              is Chinese, it's ok?  Not in this country.
                                \_ Take a deep breath and re-read that post
                                   that set you off.  I took it as being
                                   ironic and tongue-in-cheek (but with a
                                   hint of truth as to the actual view
                                   probably held by the bride's Chinese
                                   parents).  The fact is that the parents
                                   probably do have lower expectations for
                                   white people when it comes to following
                                   Chinese traditions, and they probably are
                                   disappointed in her for out-marrying.
                                   Simply observing that other people likely
                                   have prejudiced views doesn't make your
                                   observation racist.  If you think it does,
                                   you obviously have never experienced
                                   racism.
        \_ Didn't we already do this one?  Chinese related subjects are
           probably the most effective trollbait on the motd, but not when
           they're recycled.
           \_ I wasn't paying attention then. Should the gift of dollars
              end in and 8 or a 9?
              \_ 8's are lucky, 4's are unlucky.  Don't give either knives or
                 clocks/watches.
                \_ This is Chinese tradition, but do all Chinese people
                   really care.  I mean if I was Chinese, I'd realize this
                   is silly and just give whatever amount I want.  I mean is
                   it really that big of a deal, like if someone gets a watch
                   as a gift, they believe their marriage won't be happy?
                   \_ watches are okay, no clocks though
                \_ Yes 8's are lucky in general.  But for weddings you should
                   give an amount with a lot of 9's, e.g. $99.99 or $199.99.
                   That's because "9" sounds the same as "long-lasting" in both
                   Cantonese and Mandarin, and I guess they sound similar in
                   other dialects too.  OTOH "clock" sounds the same as "end",
                   and "giving clock as a gift" sounds the same as "sending
                   someone off in a funeral".  -- Cantonese
                   and "giving clock as a gift" sounds the same as "seeing off
                   the deceased in a funeral".  -- Cantonese
                    \_ What if I want to use Hex?  So, then I'll give
                       $99 Hex, which is $153 in base 10.  But that has a
                       3 and a 1 in it and 3+1=4, so I'm screwed.  But then
                       again, 1+5+3=9, so I'm good.  Or, I could just use
                       binary and give $111111111, which is $511.  On the
                       other hand, $9 in binary is $1001, which is 4
                       digits, so it's unlucky.
                       \_ Since binary and hex have not commonly been used
                          in Chinese business transactions in the past
                          couple of centuries, it does not matter, nor do
                          combinations of numbers, etc.
                       \_ Yawn.
                \_ what about the case of a mixed white/chinese where they had
                   a registry and included things like knives and clocks on it?
                   \_ Then it depends on the the relative open-mindedness /
                      bitchiness of the in-laws on both sides.  Some in-laws
                      are kind-of open-minded these days.  For example, they
                      don't object the bride wearing a gown in white, which is
                      traditionally a color of bad luck and is only worn in
                      funerals.
                   \_ Get something from the registry.  Then bring a red
                      envelope with some small amount of money.
                \_ Unrelated, but tangential:
                   Why do Asian girls walk differently from every other
                   race? It's a sort of shuffle. Latinas, caucasians, etc.
                                \_ Footbinding?
                   do not walk like this and it is distinctive from a distance.
                   \_ I think you saw Japanese girls.  Girls in Japan do walk
                      in certain way, and those who came to US recently walk
                      the same way.  I don't see how Chinese girls walk
                      different than other races.  -- Cantonese
                        \_ Japanese girls walk bow-legged because they are
                           into anal sex.  Those women are not inhibited by
                           stupid Judeo-Christian views on morality.
                           \_ Ooh.  When's the next flight available to
                              Japan???
                           \_ Dude, that's French girls.  Not Japanese girls.
                              Japanese girls are into kinky bondage sex.  It's
                              the French chicks that dig it up the old Hershey
                              highway.
2006/8/28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic] UID:44172 Activity:nil 80%like:44165
8/27    hey meth fans read this:
        http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060828fa_fact2
        \_ Thanks! great article.  -meth fan
2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2006/8/27-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Theory] UID:44165 Activity:nil 80%like:44172
8/27    hey math fans read this:
        http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060828fa_fact2
        \_ Thanks! great article.  -math fan
2006/8/23-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign] UID:44117 Activity:kinda low
8/23    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-fi-radio20aug20,0,5923744.story?coll=la-home-entertainment
        "Country music promotes patriotism and family values, and they've
        replaced it with something [hip-hop and hop] that just promotes
        money and hate." "If radio executives can focus on urban and Latino
        listeners, why can't they focus on white America?"
        \_ Because that's not politically correct.
           \_ Bullshit. It's because young white America is listening to hip
              hop and sporting bling.
        \_ The invisible hand of the free market is at work.
           \_ Yeah, no shit.  News flash: with a few fringe exceptions, white
              America's music sucks ass.  People all over the world have
              gotten into hip hop, both in terms of spending large sums of
              money on American music and making their own.  "White America"
              buys more hip hop than anyone, and yet getting anyone who isn't
              a white American in a very specific educational and economic
              set to buy a country music album will simply never happen.
              \_ Your love of country music seriously undermines your
                 credibility as a 'music critic'.
              \_ Kenny Rogers was very famous in Hong Kong two decades ago.  He
                 even held some big sold-out concerts.  So was John Denver.
                 Glen Campbell was famous there three decades ago when I was a
                 little kid.
              \_ Please don't call this P.Diddy, 50 cent crap that white
                 Americans listen to "hip hop." It's [c]rap.
        \_ Isn't like 50% of country music "my woman done left me"?
           \_ It's more like "my mom/sis/gf done left me and I miss *her*".
              \_ "...And then I lost my Job."
                 \_ And crashed my pickup truck into my dog and totalled both
                    \_ In the rain
                       \_ I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
                          And I went to pick her up in the rain
                          But before I could get to the station
                              in my pickup truck
                          She got runned over by a damned old train.
                          \_ It ain't country if there isn't a train somewhere
2006/8/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:44097 Activity:moderate
8/22    A while ago someone said that in Mexico, one will see signs on doors
        that say, "No Indios."  It was claimed that "they" will say this is
        not racism.  How does one even begin to claim that it isn't racism?
        I'm curious to hear the argument.
        \_ How about "no strawmen"?  -tom
        \_ Hey, welcome to the rest of the world where racism is every day in
           every way status quo.
        \_ When the west occupied China a century ago, they put up signs at
           buildings and parks that read "No Chinese or dogs allowed."
           \_ The debate on the authenticity of this is by no means over:
              http://pekingduck.org/archives/002522.php
           \_ Do employment ads in Japan still say "no gajin (sp?)"?
              \_ Not as such, but it's implicit more often than not. Mind you,
                 you can specify male or female, young or old, and no fatties,
                 no uglies in help wanted ads in Japan. Hell, you can even
                 specify blondes or non-blondes even if the job has nothing to
                 do with looks. Note that "gaijin" refers to non-Asian
                 foreigners; there are other words for Asian foreigners.
              \_ One can only hope so.
2006/8/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:44037 Activity:nil
8/16    I used to speak decent Mandarin, many many years ago, and I want to try
        to pick it back up.  Can any motd mandarin speakers recommend any
        Mandarin language podcasts?  I'd rather listen to something that's
        actually cool where I have to work a bit to follow it than some
        instructional "learn Chinese" type thing.  News?  Entertainment? u
        Anything that might be interesting.  Thanks.
        \_ Date an authentic FOB Chinese girl like the rest of us Sodans
           \_ picsP
        \_ Pimsleur's is really really good.
        \_ The mandarin dramas on Channel 26.
2006/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:44006 Activity:nil
8/14    Is there any racial issue within the Hispanic group?  E.g. do the
        Hispanic blacks and Hispanic whites consider themselves different, just
        like the English-speaking blacks and whites?
        \_ Yes.  Lighter people always look down upon the darker, lower class
           people.  -albino
        \_ There are many places where "Indios" are not allowed.  They will
           tell you "It's not racism", but it is.
           \_ http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=indio,+ca
        \_ Ever notice that everyone on Mexican TV is white?
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
        \_ Yes, there are. Not just skin color either.
        \_ Read Octavio Paz's collection of essays, Labyrinth of Solitude.
           Much good information here concerning Mexico's struggle with its
           own history as a former colony and the legacy of race.
        \_ I don't know of any large group of people that doesn't teach or
           encourage ethnic superiority. Just look at China, Hong Kong,
           Taiwan, Malasia, Singapore. For example certain types of Taiwanese
           people are taught or hinted to be superior over other types of
           Taiwanese. Certainly, the division is even sharper amongst the
           different Chinese ethnicities in the pacific. Heck, even left
           liberals think they're superior over the country music beer
           drinking gun toting right wing neocon nuts, and vise versa.
           I think it is just a nature of human beings to discriminate and
           hate one another.
           \_ That's why the Cylons hate us.
           \_ I don't watch Mexican TV, sorry.
           \_ I'm on the Mexican radio...
              \_ We must resolve to better understand our Cyclons brothers so
                 we can have a mutually beneficial discussion of our
                 differences and through our diversity of opinion thereby
                 grow stronger for it.  Call back the fighters and power down
                 the cannons so they understand we're not a threat so we can
                 have peaceful dialog.  We must have done something to them
                 for them to hate us so.  I feel so guilty about my ancestor's
                 cruelty to the oppressed Cylon peoples!  We must make amends!
2006/8/2-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:43869 Activity:kinda low
8/2     Lawrence Livermore Natl. Lab employee arrested on child porn
        charges.
        http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_4120530
        The thing I think is iteresting here is that the Lab has gone into
        damage control mode.  (Press releases that say things like, "We
        are fully cooperating with the police," etc.)  Do you really need
        damage control in a case like this?
        \_ I don't know what grant or funding politics are like for
           that sort of organization, but I assume there is quite a bit
           of nastiness that goes on when competing for govt. money.  It
           would be pretty easy to insinuate shit like "well, their people
           are just surfing for kiddy porn on taxpayer dough" to the press.
           I've seen worse.  -John
           \- Livermore is an employer with +10k employee ... dont you think
              this is just a matter of statistics? It's not like they were
              running a massive bittorrent p0rn server. Resources spent
              playing Big Brother costs real money, and imposes real costs
              [should the computer security people run "find *.jpg"
              in people homedirs and have somebody spend 10hrs a week
              looking these over?]
              \_ You're preaching to the saved.  Pr0n at the workplace, if
                 you consider it a problem, is not something you can solve
                 technically, and I argue this constantly (it's a management
                 issue.)  Unfortunately, there's a combination of factors,
                 such as many managers not wanting to take ownership of
                 talking to employees whose work is being affected by non-
                 work stuff, over-zealous HR people, legal guys worried about
                 harassment suits and senir management who see this sort of
                 thing in a very binary manner, that often results in demands
                 for excessive "pre-emptive" measures.  But in this case I
                 was just commenting on the logic behind the "damage control"
                 that op asked about--I don't know the politics that surround
                 LLNL, and was assuming that this was just pre-emptive to
                 avoid the case being misused by someone overly zealous or
                 with a political agenda.  -John
              \_ It's odder than that, all the porn was at home, none
                 was at work.  So to my mind, LLNL has absolutely nothing
                 to do with this.  Never the less, I think John has a
                 point about politics. (Digression from above: LLNL DOES
                 put a lot of man power into watching out for porn at
                 work.) -op
                 \- i didnt look at the details carefully, but if what you say
                    is true, this is a good example of "if the press wants to
                    do a hatchet job on you, no matter what steps you take,
                    thay can allways paint it as unreasonable" [save the
                    thay can always paint it as unreasonable" [save the
                    children, your tax dollars at work etc]. which isnt to say
                    "do nothing" but dont let "the standard of care" be "what
                    will satisfy a reporter with a small brain". [at various
                    times i have been involved in "appropriate use" compliance
                    issues and there is a very strong correlation with the
                    overall resonableness and cleverness of people working in
                    this area and their distate for being involved ... the one
                    person who was enthusiastic about this was a lying, incom-
                    petent sack of shit, who did a lot of underhanded political
                    things here, had no respect of anybody reasonable and some
                    what creepily made it part of his job to visit some of
                    the tagged WEEB site to make sure they were perverted/
                    pornish.]

        \_ Wen Ho Lee got reamed for far less. -proud American
           \_ To be fair, leaving around diskettes of nuclear secrets
              is a lot worse than child porn.
              \_ And your basis for saying he did is...?
                \_ I thought he pled guilty to carelessly copying
                   classified nuclear crap to data cassettes and leaving
                   it in unclassified areas, probably for a job interview?
                   I don't think he was out there selling our secrets
                   to the Chinese, he was just really careless.  Feel
                   free to prove me wrong.
                   \_ No, he didn't plead guilty to that.
                   \_ he was being single out because he is Chinese.
                      There are plenty of people in the lab do exactly the
                      same thing or worse but they end up in... hmm...
                      \_ I bet they don't anymore!
                      lecture hall of MIT instead of solidary comfinment
                      for 23 hours a day, shackled from waist down, for
                      9 month.  May be you should really work for Christopher
                      Cox (author of "The Cox Report", now Chairman of SEC).
                      \_ and dude I don't know Chinese but I KNOW your
                         English is better than this, what is your problem?
2006/8/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Pets] UID:43862 Activity:nil
8/1     County officials in one Chinese province decide to club to death all
        non-military/police dogs due to rabies outbreak.  Check out the photo.
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14139027
        \_ Why USA codemn mainland china for beat dog when Iraq Guataanimao
           no China USA brutal Israel@!
           \_ American care more about dog than they cares about non white.
                \_ That's not true.  As a proud American, I care deeply
                   about all black and Mexican women...at least when I'm
                   just about to climax on them. -proud American
        \_ I was going to make a dumb joke but that's just sad.
           \_ did you delete the existing joke(s)? that's sad...
              \_ No.
        \_ I love my cat, I club my dog
        \_ they should of use lethal injection, just like what USA does.
        \_ They probably deserved it. -proud American
        \_ Those filthy dogs deserved everything they got.  -proud Chinese
2006/8/1-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:43858 Activity:nil
8/1     Does anyone know if foreign Mandarin accents irritate Mainland Chinese
        as much as Beijing Chinese accent irritates say, the Taiwanese? In
        another word do Mainlander discriminate as much as the non-Mainlanders
        based on non-local Mandarin accents?
        \_ The answer is "No" with almost absolute certainty for several
           reason.  While Beijing is more or less being the capital for
           past 800 years, Chinese government traditionally ran by Mandarins
           selected by sheer examination scores.  This means government
           up to cabinent members can came from anywhere.  As result, there
           is little geographical sense of superority.  The situation changed
           somewhat during Manchu Dynasty, mostly due to ethnic tensions
           between royal desent (Manchus) and Hans who made up majority of
           government body.  The funny things is, those royal family based
           their pride on proper Mandarin (specifically, "inner city" Beijing
           accent, oppose to "outter city" and "outside of city"), instead of
           Manchurian, a native Manchu tongue which almost no one speaks.
           Fastforward to today,like any other metropolitans,bulk of Beijing's
           14 million resident came from outside of the city.  Consider that
           China has several thousands of dialects, most people don't hold
           anything agaist you if you speak with an accent.
        \_ Short answer: No.  While Beijing has been the capital of China for
           more or less 800 years, majority of government officials, e.g.
           Mandarins were selected by examination, thus, no particular
           geographical ties.  Today's Bejing, just like rest of major
           Metropolitians, more people are from outside of Beijing than
           the true native.   While people do praise those who speak
           with proper accent, very few, if any, are being discriminated
           because of his/her accent, as there are at least 1.2 billion people
           speak Mandarin with some sort of accent.  -kngharv
        \_ I don't know about accents, but my wife served as a tour guide
           at the Salt Lake Temple Square, and generally the Taiwanese
           tour guides did not give tours to the mainland Chinese.  She
           wasn't quite sure why, but it seemed to have to do with
           tensions over Taiwanese independence. -jrleek
           \_ jrleek.  The root cause of this tension is because
              pro-independent Taiwanese plays racial politics.  Race, by
              their definition, is based upon where one's parents were born.
              As result, myself, born in Taiwan and currently working in
              Taiwan, is considered as "Chinese Pig" by those Taiwanese.
              (by the way, "Chinese Pig" was the exact term they use.)
              Right now, Taiwan's democracy is completely engulfed by racial
              politics that anything deemd "Native" (i.e. those people who
              came to Taiwan prior to First Sino-Japanese War in 1845) is
              justified.   Politicians are judged based upon his blood line,
              not by how well he/she has been ruled.    kngharv
              not by how well he/she has ruled.         kngharv
           \_ It is true. The Taiwanese people resent the Mainlanders
              and their government. I'm wondering if the reverse is
              also true. Do Mainlanders hate the Taiwanese?  -taiwanese
                   \- there are some pretty crazy shenannigans between
                      china and taiwan. do you know about the crazy panda
                      diplomacy trick? i understand there is some either
                      pro-chinese or pro-taiwanese radio talk show in LA
                      and people get so worked up when calling from cell
                      phones in cars, they get into accidents. china also
                      does some wealsey things like objecting to a USA visa
                      for taiwanese officials truing to come to things like
                      college reunions.
                \_ We should bomb Taiwan.  Why the hell does this
                   tiny country even exist? -proud American
                   \_ To provide us with motherboards, DUH!
                \_ You misunderstand.  The tour guides didn't have the
                   problem, the guests did.  In otherwords, from this one
                   data point it seems like mainlanders might have a
                   problem with the Taiwanese.  One third hand data point
                   ain't much though. -jrleek
                   \_ nope, jrleek, that is not correct.  People from mainland
                      tend to have problem with people from Hong Kong for one
                      reason or another, such resentment toward people from
                      Taiwan virtually non-existent.   Majority of problem
                      lies upon Taiwan side.  -kngharv
        \_ I don't know Chineese, but I do know people, so I can pretty
           confidently say, "Yes." Yankees hate southern accents.
           Swiss hate Austrian accents. Sri Lankans hate Indian Tamil
           accents. Limeys hate Gringo accents. People everywhere are
           convinced that their way of speaking a language is the one true
           way and everyone else is wrong. So it goes.
           \_ That's not always true.  Some accents get classified as "sexy"
              or "sophisticated", along with associated stereotypes(I'm talking
              about English here).
           \_ Southern accents are great.  Northern ones are ugly.  -Yankee
              \_ You guys are right. The corollary is that people
                 everywhere hate their own accent and like other accents.
           \_ I don't know man. I use to dislike Cantonese (and I am a
              Mandarin speaker), but there was this cute sexy girl who
              I swear speaks the most sexy sounding Cantonese I've
              ever heard. After that, I don't find Cantonese so
              offensive sounding. ;)
2006/7/25-28 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43788 Activity:nil
7/25    I guess China is really pissed at North Korea's missile test.
        Again, I don't think China has full control of N.Korea, but it
        does have a bag of tricks dealing with N.Korea:
        http://tinyurl.com/r5fu8
        \_ No one said they had "full" control.
        \_ Did North Korea return the trains that it seized from China?
        \_ NK printing US money at will, nice. Hadn't heard that one.
           \_ I heard Iraq did the same.
                \_ At Abdul's nuke shack we sell an awful lot of goodies ...
                   but we don't take dinars.
2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43718 Activity:nil
7/18    So, we call that guy a "chicom", but isn't that sort of a misnomer?
        Isn't chinese communism extinct, just like communism everywhere
        in the world except Cuba?  I mean, with all the market reforms
        in China, haven't the leadership admitted, in essense, that
        communism doesn't work, that the market does, and that they're
        retaining political control nakedly just for the sake of
        holding power?  And so, shouldn't we rename "chicom troll"
        after some abbreviation of "Chinese totalitarian governmental
        pawn" instead?
        \_ How 'bout: Chipotle?
        \_ I started using chicom because it's so absurdly anachronistic
           (like half of his rants.)  I think heil cherman john guy left
           because I didn't have a good name for him.  I think every good
           troll breeder should know his trolls by good names, so feel free
           to suggest.  -John
2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43707 Activity:nil
7/18    Racist polls. Which ethnicity/race/people love money the most?
        -Chinese: .
        -Jew: .
        -Swiss: .
        \_ If we loved money so much, we wouldn't be so damn bad
           at business.  -John
           \_ We as in Swiss or Jew? You are a Jew aren't you?
              \_ Awesome, I never knew.  Hmm.  -John
        -Nigerians:
        \_ Jewish ethnic Chinese living in Nigeria
           \_ Is there such a thing as Jewish Chinese or Chinese Jew?
              \_ Why not?  Just like there are many Chinese Muslims in China,
                 and many Chinese Christians and Chinese Catholics in Hong
                 Kong.
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China
                 \_ So they have the best of both ethnicity, where they're
                    super rich and super stingy?
        -English: .
        \_ Remembering how my former classmate who was a Chinese FOB seemed
           to worry mostly about what else she could possibly do in her spare
           time to make even MORE money despite the fact she already had a
           well-paying 60hr/week programming job, $0 debt, and that her living
           expenses were not much higher than those of a typical UCB student,
           I'd say Chinese.
           \_ Who has all the old money in the world? How do you think
              they got it, by not caring about money? WASP's love to complain
              about how everyone else are only interested in money, while
              they seem to have all of it. It is a subtle form of putting
              down the nuevo riche.
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43695 Activity:nil
7/17    If Chinese immigrants live everywhere in the world, why don't they
        live near the coastline? For example, Fremont is full of Chinese
        people and it's far away from the coast. Ditto with Monterey Park
        and Alhambra. Why don't they live near say, Noe Valley, Pacific
        Heights, Seacliff, and Marina? Why don't they live in West LA?
        All of these areas are along the coast, and are predominanatly white.
        Do Chinese people in general not like living near the ocean?
                                                -Chinese and curious
        \_ I'm sorry to say this bitterly but in reality, it's
           because the whities control the best real estates. For
           hundreds of years they suppressed the minorities and took up all
           because the whities control the best real estates. For hundreds of
           thousands of years they suppressed the minorities and took up all
           the good land and left the Indians, blacks, and latinos
           shitty land. Case in point, when the Japanese were too successful,
           the whities took away their properties and put them into
           internment camps. Do you remember the Euclid co-op on
           1777 Euclid? It used to be owned by Japanese students until
           the whities took it away from them. It's all about power and
           control, and the whities have both.
           \_ Perhaps the whities own all the good land because they have a
              solid work ethic and sharp minds with good educations -- whereas
              all the little non-whities like yourself are lazy, uneducated,
              greedy second-class citizens that can't even learn english.
              God rewards those who work for their rewards, and he punishes
              greedy, lazy, uneducated non-whities like yourself.  I may
              not be a minority, but at least I can speak english.
           \_ "The whities" do not control all the good land.  A very small
              power elite controls all the good land, as it does everywhere.
              In the U.S., that small power elite is mostly(but not entirely)
              white.  I'm reminded of the old joke about the jew in tsarist
              russia who says he always reads the anti-semitic newspaper because
              it's all good news: it says he controls the banks, the land,
              the government, etc. when in fact he's a poor peasant like
              everyone else.  All the good land everywhere is being bought up
              by rich speculators, squeezing out those of us who work for a
              living. The fact that most of the speculator class is white
              does not make this a race issue.
              \_ No, no -- the whities do because they're clearly superior
                 than their mentally disadvantaged little cousins.
        \_  it's because being near chinese grocery stores seems to be the
            being outdoors, so the higher cost of coastal living isn't
            justified, since chinese people like money.
                \_ Which race/ethnicity doesn't like money?
                   \_ Why is this even a race based question?  Can't there be
                      individuals of every background who have their own
                      personal belief systems?
                      \_ Exactly my point.  -- PP
        \_ They buy moderately priced real estate where there is an existing
           Chinese community they can buy Chinese groceries at?
        \_ The Richmond and Sunset Districts in SF have a lot of Chinese
           residents.  Both are coastline districts.
        \_ Is it a feng shui thing? I know that Chinese like San Marino
           because of wide, straight streets. Beach towns don't usually
           have that.
        \_ San Francisco?  Boston?  Hong Kong?
           \_ I thought it's because of their lack of driving ability
        \_ San Francisco?  Boston?
        \_ Everything is determined by price. If Chinese immigrants
           are rich, then they will buy up all the coast-line
           properties and China Town will not be where it is today.
           Most are not, so they settle for something in between. It's
           like asking, how come the black people lives in shit place
           like New Orleans?  How come they don't buy up the
           coast-line properties?
           \_ What's weird is that in the SF neighborhood where I grew up
              (Miraloma, attached houses, nothing special), several
              Chinese families bought houses, built huge in-laws and
              extra stories, and moved in.  Judging by their cars, most of
              them were loaded and could have afforded nice places in way
              more upscale parts of town.  I never figured that out.  -John
              \_ Don't judge wealth by cars.
        \_ "How come engineers/geeks don't like pretty girls? Why do
           they always go for the below average ones? Do geeks in
           general not like cute/sexy/pretty girls?"
2006/7/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43611 Activity:nil
7/10    Just a reminder that the CPC is an illegitimate government that
        seized power through force of arms, and that the PRC illegally invaded
        and continues to occupy Tibet, suppresses the basic human rights of
        the Uighurs, installs its own political appointees to key positions
        in religious institutions that it does not recognize as legitimate,
        and continues to sell the organs of political prisoners.
        \_ I liked it.  You are stupid.  Keira Knightley is still flat.
        \_ Uighurs?  Are you implying that they respect the basic human rights
           of anyone else, including Han?
        \_ Tibet was conqured by Manchurians in the late 16th century, some
           90 years before the 13 states declare independent from the Crown.
           \_ Difficult for the Manchurians to do since they didn't conquer
              China until the mid 17th century.
        \_ What is CPC?
2006/7/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43603 Activity:low
7/8     Just a reminder that it was USA and USSR divided the Korea.
        China had nothing to do with it.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea
        A little historical fact that is unknown to most of Americans:
        1. Foreign minister at the time, Zhou EnLai of PRC, via India,
        warned USA about not cross the 38th parallel or PRC would have no
        choice but defend itself.  US Army decided to go all the way.  Mind
        you that at the time, US does not recognize the government in Beijing
        as legitiment representitive of China.  There was geniune fear among
        Chinese that US would use this opportunity to get involved and perhaps
        restore the Nationalist government.
        2. Historical documents from China reveal the fact that China (yes,
        across the Yalu river) was continuously being bombed by Americans.
        At the time, many thought it was the prelude to American invasion.

        Korean War, from China side, was more of a war of self-defence than
        an ideological war.  Unfortuntely, American never see this conflict
        outside its "Communist" lens.   The sad thing is, American still view
        the world using this kind of broad-brush, jus that the lens has
        switched from "Communist" to "Terrorism."
        \_ Self-defense? What a silly chicom troll.
           \_ US acrossed the 38th parallel first.  US could of driven
              N.Koreans out of South Korea and stopped there.  But
              McArthur decided to go all the way.  We all know now that at
              the time, his intension was going to Beijing.   You can't say
              Beijing was paranoid because its fear turned out to be true.
              \_ Yes, after nearly being driven off the peninsula by invading,
                 Chinese & Soviet-supported North Korean hordes.  Good troll,
                 Have a troll snack!  -John
                 \_ N.Korea attacked S.Korea without (Communist) Chinese's
                    knowledge.  At the time, Mao Zetong was busy preparing
                    for invasion of Taiwan.  last thing Communist Chinese want
                    was draw any excuse for US involvement.
        \_ Maybe because they were sending several hundred thousand guys
           across the Yalu (including many "volunteers" before the PRC was
           officially involved) and allowing massive amounts of supplies to
           enter N. Korea.  Silly chicom troll.  -John
           \_ The bombing taken place before China gotten involved (i.e.
              before million of people were send across the Chinese border).
              When I read those documents, I was suspecious it was a Communist
              propaganda myself.  Then, 20 some years later, I saw the same
              tactic used in Vietnam.  It does seems that this is
              a common practice of USA to escalate the war.   Few tend to know
              the fact that US forces were bombing China/Vietnam.  When
              China/Vietnam respond to such hostile act, US President can
              turn to congress and ask for proper "response" as if US was
              being unfairly provoked.
              \_ Good troll, another troll snack!  Next week we move on to
                 Adult Troll-Gro.  -John
              \_ I don't see this as a troll, merely stating an
                 opinion that many people do not want to hear.
                 1) US did not recognize China as a legitimate
                 government at the time.
                 2) China has warned NK not to attack the south,
                 because the US will get involved and the Soviets will
                 not back them. But NK choose to listen to the Soviets
                 instead. And sure enough the soviets chickened out.
                 3) China does not want a conflict on the Korean
                 peninsula because it wants to focus on Taiwan. Having
                 US entering from the North and engaged in a conflict
                 would give substantial advantage for Taiwan to attack
                 from the south.
                 4) McArthur has stated more than once that he will
                 chase NK (terrorists using current terminology)
                 across the border, if necessary.
                 5) Factor all these into consideration, it became
                 clear it is in China's best interest to be
                 "PREEMPTIVE" about the war and make sure it doesn't
                 get to its borders. So it decided to get involved.
                 The "voluntary army" is just a cover.
                 6) The Korean war, and then the Vietnam war, is
                 basically how the international community, especially
                 the US, came to recognize China as a legitimate
                 government.  It really take WARS to establish
                 yourself, like the wars we've fought with Mexico.
                 (yeah, we did fight the Mexicans, imagine that huh?)
                 If you tell me US have no intention of aiding Taiwan
                 and stop once they captured the NK leaders inside
                 China territory, or think the US would not have done
                 the same if the situation is reversed.  You are even
                 a bigger troll. ;) -chiry
                 \_ At least we're agreed about the "voluntary army" being
                    a cover for PRC involvement in the Korean War. Now we
                    need to get you to realize that PRC could have defused
                    tensions by not allowing the North Koreans to retreat into
                    China to begin with. After that, we'll work on the party
                    line about pre-emption being the PRC's only means of
                    avoiding invasion by MacArthur. --erikred
2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43575 Activity:kinda low
7/5     NK stealing Chinese aid trains. How pathetic.
        http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/korea/articles/20060705.aspx
        \_ "While everyone's attention was focused on North Korean missiles,
            the real story is the North Korean economy. It continues to fall
            apart, and more North Koreans are unhappy about that. Worse yet,
            more North Koreans are finding out how badly they have been
            screwed by their leaders."
           This is a dangerous estimation of the current situation. North
           Koreans are not some sort of democratic people who have been mis-
           led by their duly elected officials; they're hostages of a
           totalitarian regime that starves them and keeps them down through
           malnutrition and force of arms. There is little chance of a popular
           uprising in NK. The best you're likely to get is disaffection among
           the generals and a coup.
           \_ There have been food riots in the past, and a few
              assassination attempts on the dear leader, but yeah, you're
              basically right.  It doesn't hurt that China is very
              interested in propping the regime up.
              \_ fuck you.  Neither China nor South Korea is interested in
                 completely disintegration of N.Korea for one simple reason.
                 Neither China nor S.Korea knows what to do with millions of
                 half-starved refugees.  There are already tens of thousands
                 of N.Koreans inside China illegally, and Chinese is not sure
                 what to do with them.   US is 6000 miles away from N.Korea
                 of course won't suffer any consequences of its complete
                 disintegration.  To say China is trying propping the regime
                 up is either one of those anti-China propaganda, or you are
                 just completely clueless on what the fuck is going on in
                 this part of the world.
                 \_ Well China propped it up in the first place (1950).
                    \_ nope.  Korea was partitioned by US and USSR, buddy.
                       China was left in the dark in the Yelta Conference.
                       Again, you have no clue what is going on in this part
                       of the world.
                       \_ motdpoll: Who is more clueless?  The guy who
                          thinks Yalta (1945) was in 1950, or the guy who
                          thinks China was involved in the Korean war?
                          Yalta in 1950 guy: ..
                          China in KW guy:
                          \_ China was fighting us by proxy in the
                             Korean war by providing the father of the
                             current Dear Leader with massive logistical
                             support.
                          \_ This is from a thirty-second google of "china
                             'korean war'":
                             http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/cn-korea.htm
                             I'll go with Yenta.
                             \_ Yes, China was involved in the Korean war,
                                they kept the US from unifying Korea
                                under the SK government.  The "poll" was
                                just supposed to be a funny way of
                                pointing out what an idiot and blowhard
                                Chicom is.
                                \_ I think the motd is too clueless to
                                   get this humor. -China in KW guy
                 \_ Uh, why "fuck you"?  You've just confirmed that "China
                    is very interested in propping the regime up."  -John
                    \_ there is a difference between prevent a regime from
                       completely disintergration versus propping it up.
                       Yes, China ships food and fuel to N.Korea every week.
                       But this is about the only leverage China has over
                       N.Korea.   How much leverage does US have?
                       \_ So, you don't disagree with the fact, you just
                          don't like how I stated it?  Well, screw you
                          too.
                 \_ Cheap shot: The PRC knows what to do with NK refugees--
                    keep them the hell away from other countries' consulates
                    lest they claim political asylum.
                    \_ Chinese is doing US, Japan, and other European nation
                       a huge favor in this regard.  China could of just throw
                       its hand and say "hey, consulate is your soverign
                       territory, ain't my problem, so, you deal with these
                       North Koreans."
                       \_ This is nonsensical; US, Japan, and the Euro
                          nations have no problem with granting political
                          refugee status to North Koreans who ask for it.
                          To say that the PRC is doing these countries a
                          favor by sending police into consulates to remove
                          these refugees is like saying that the Sudanese
                          government is doing the rest of the world a favor
                          by murdering Darfur refugees.
              \_ Not trying to argue with you, but apart from the alleged
                 explosives plot in '04, can you point me toward these other
                 assassination attempts?
                 \_ I'm having trouble finding them now.  I read one where
                    an artillery group loaded a live shell at a parade and
                    took a shot at him.
           \_ A "popular uprising" in the modern world requires outside
              assistance for weapons, etc.  I'm unaware of any attempts to
              create or fund the non-existent popular uprising in NK, but a
              coup might happen if some colonel gets greedy and I'm sure a
              random NK colonel is going to be so much better for the world
              than the random NK in charge now.  It's hopeless.
              \_ A lone colonel is not going to be enough to install himself
                 as generalissimo. If there's a coup, a military junta a la
                 Burma is much more likely.
2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:43569 Activity:moderate
7/5     What's the big deal about NK testing firing some missiles?  I mean
        don't we test fire missiles all the time? We must've test
        fired thousands of missiles, heck, we still drop bombs
        wherever we feel like, and that's all fine. But another
        sovereign nation can't test fire a fucking missiles? Last I
        recall NK hasn't dropped bombs on anyone except Korea. We have
        dropped Nuclear Bombs, Cluster Bombs, all kinds of fucking
        bombs everywhere around the globe, but I guess it's ok because
        we are the good guys, and we never attack unless being
        attacked, ops, I mean we never, never mind.
        \_ You're right, it's about international prestige.  NK wants some,
           the U.S. doesn't want to give it to them.
        \_ It's not just the US; Japan's objecting to NK testing missiles,
           too. That's not about prestige, that's self-preservation. If
           NK can target Tokyo, Japan believes NK will use this to blackmail
           Japan for more economic/agrarian aid. Japan has reason to think so;
           cf. NK's abduction of Japanese citizens and subsequent denial of
           such.
           \_ Plus the fake fishing boats in Japan waters.
           \_ Plus the underground tunnels across the 38deg parallel.
           \_ The funny thing is, there is little symphathy toward Japan
              across Asia.  Japanese need to think a bit hard on why being
              targeted by N.Korea doesn't yield any symphathy among its
              neighbors.
              \_ In other news, Japan was dressed like it wanted to be
                 targetted.
              \_ Dude, from the *U.S.* perspective Japan is very important,
                 our 4th largest trading partner.  We don't want to see them
                 nuked or blackmailed.
                 \_ China is the 3rd largest trading partner, but US doesn't
                    mind China being nuked or blackmailed at all.  In fact,
                    US probably going to nuke China when it got a chance.
                    what does trade has anything to do with all this?
                    \_ No one (apart from the Uighurs and some militant
                       Tibetans in exile) wants to nuke China. The US is
                       pursuing a policy of encouraging the PRC to abandon
                       its ersatz Communism in favor of capitalism (which
                       many people think will somehow lead to democratic
                       reform; I disagree on the basis that the people in
                       power in the PRC are much more likely to use the
                       economic miracle to consolidate their own power at the
                       expense of the serf class they rule). Also, DPRK
                       cannot blackmail PRC because PRC controls the oil
                       pipeline that leads into the DPRK; when DPRK last tried
                       to get snarky with PRC, there was an "accident" that
                       shut down the pipeline for nearly a week. DPRK backed
                       down.
                       \_ economic propsperity will lead to political reform.
                          The Chinese government today is, believe me or not,
                          a lot more transparent than 15 years ago.  But
                          don't put your bet on full western-style democracy.
                          it has been tried and didn't work.  Another history
                          lesson of the day, China is the first country in
                          East Asia that established a Democratic Republic
                          with 5 branch of government.
                          \_ Despite Sun Yat-sen's idealistic intentions,
                             the Republic of China was never a Western-style
                             democracy; it was an oligarchy, and it quickly
                             devolved into a military dictatorship. It was
                             disaffection with the KMT's stranglehold on the
                             ersatz democracy that fueled Mao & Co.'s rise to
                             power. After the founding of the PRC, democracy
                             became something less than lip service; cf.
                             Gang of Four.
        \_ They just fired a 7th (!!).  I wonder how many NK comrades literally
           starve for every compensatory phallic NK missle launch.
           \_ You do know these missiles are called "Nodong," right?
        \_ Yeah!!! We should all quick picking on poor little NK. After all
           it was Western agression that provoked them into starting the
           Korean War! Get you fcking head out of the sand. NK perfects
           missile technology, it'll be nuclear yellow mornings for you
           libs in the West coasts all the time. And please don't give tell me
           you don't know about the thousands of conventional arty pieces
           pointed at Seoul, ready to level it at the first sign of attack.
           \_ As the only nation on this planet in the history of
              mankind that have used a nuclear weapon against millions
              of civilian lives, and wants to develop "bunker busting
              nukes" against an enemy so weak they can't even fight us
              face to face, we really have no right to tell anyone
              what to do about nuclear weapons. Just remember, what
              goes around, comes around. 75% of the world agrees that
              the US is the biggest threat to world peace. It is time
              you get your head out of the sand and ask "why".
              \_ Why if 75% say so then it must be true! I can see how the
                 sun never sets on the U.S. flag! I can see English being
                 forced on the locals. Yes, sirree! We are threat to world
                 peace with all the food we give away, all the money we
                 give away to those who play ball with us, my gawd, all that
                 "shame" from Hiroshima (100k dead vs. 2mil USGI possibly
                 dying) has lead us to the warpath! You know we wanted
                 to rewrite the Vietnamese lang. just like the French did.
                 You know we wanted to go all the way to Beijing. By golly
                 you have us pegged as conquering squatters we are.
                 \_ The US did go all the way to Beijing in 1900.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
                 \_ Nice.  Maybe they think we're a threat because of what we
                    actually HAVE done, largely supporting and funding
                    destabilizing influences the world over.
                    \_ you mean how we've been the most generous and pacifist
                       power the world has ever seen?
                       \_ US is neither most generous (in the percentage of
                          is GDP) nor pacifist.  We've been overthrown
                          democratic governments, founding garallias,
                          and invade soverign nation against UN charter.
                          Exactly what make you think US is a pacifist?
                          \_ Generous: we give more.  We also give a lot more
                             \_ nope.  per pecentage of GDP, US doesn't give
                                more.
                             in private donations.  Pacifist: name any country
                                \_ private donation doesnt count as Nation's
                                   donation.  good try to spin the way through
                             in the past with any amount of power that didn't
                             try to form an empire.  I can only name one that
                             has more power than the rest of the world
                             combined and barely uses it.  This is a very
                             pacifist and passive country.
                             \_ Do you want to talk about Iran in 1953?
                                Guatamola?  Chili?  and latest Iraq? If you
                                want to talk about neighbors, you want to
                                talk about our invasion against Canada?
                                our advanture with Mexico?  I haven't start
                                talking about all these Indian nations because
                                inferior race doesn't count as humans.
                       \_ And Kenneth Lay was a great philanthropist.
                          \_ Snarky.  Ignorant.
                             \_ He was!  How's that ignorant?
                       \_ More generous and pacifistic than Sweden? Canada?
                          The Netherlands? I think not.
                          \_ I was unaware Sweden, Canada, and the Netherlands
                             were super powers.  I apologise to you and the
                             rest of the motd for not recognising these three
                             great nations for the super powers they are.
                             \_ The phrase was "power" not "super power." But
                                yeah, if you want to claim that the United
                                States is the most generous and pacifistic
                                superpower in the world, that would be hard
                                to argue with, since we are also the only
                                superpower in the world. We are also,
                                incidently, the greediest and most warmongering
                                superpower in the world. But in either case,
                                you aren't saying a whole lot.
                                \_ Split any hairs lately?  Use Power or Super
                                   Power.  No nation with power over their
                                   neighbors has ever been as generous or as
                                   pacifistic as the US.  How's that?  No
                                   nation has ever had the power the US has
                                   now and pray they don't ever because it's
                                   only down hill from here.
                                   \_ Okay, I agree with you on this.
                                   \_ you are sooooooooooo ignorant of history.
                                      google the term "pax sinica."
                                      \_ Hello, the Middle Kingdom invented
                                         gunboat diplomacy before there were
                                         gunboats. Also, if the MK had an
                                         economic dispute (i.e., if you didn't
                                         pay your tribute), they'd invade and
                                         destroy. This would seem to invalidate
                                         the pacifist requirement.
                                         \_ you have no idea what you are
                                            talking about.  tribute is more
                                            similar to trade agreement than
                                            what you think it is.  But since
                                            you are clueless beyond help, I
                                            am not going to elaborate further.
                                            \_ LOLicious! You have nothing to
                                               back up your revisionist view
                                               of the Middle Kingdom as last
                                               benign military force, so you
                                               accuse me of not knowing what
                                               I'm talking about. -10 points
                                               for House ChiCom Troll!
                                      \_ Hey, don't forget the kindness of
                                         the Islamic empire.  As long as
                                         you agreed with them on
                                         everything, they wouldn't murder
                                         everyone and rape all the women!
                                         What elightenment!
                                         \_ hmm... let see... why all the
                                            fucking Jews seeking refuge in
                                            those Islamic empire if they are
                                            being murdered and raped?
                                            \_ 1) Because they had _less_
                                               chance of being raped in Islamic
                                               world than in Xian world; google
                                               Pogroms. 2) Because pp has
                                               overstated the case even more
                                               than revisionist ChiCom Troll.
                          \_ Yeah, each of those countries can airlift
                             people after tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes
                             easily. Why they protect thousands of miles
                             of land that's not even theirs!
                             \_ Overseas Development Aid as a percentage of GDP
                                Denmark 0.96%
                                Norway .89
                                Sweden .83
                                Netherlands .81
                                Luxembourg .77
                                Belgium .43
                                Ireland .40
                                France .38
                                Japan .23
                                United States .13
                                \_ Are you including private donations?  No.
                                   I think you'll be surprised at just how
                                   generous Americans really are if you
                                   bothered to check that instead of just
                                   looking at government funded programs, but
                                   Americans are all greedy and selfish and
                                   insular and stupid so don't worry about it.
                                   \_ Give me the facts then, instead of just
                                      spouting your opinion. Including private
                                      donations, who is the most generous?
                                      Cite your source, please.
                                \_ Fighting the war on terror is equivalent
                                   to development aid, because terror impedes
                                   development. The defense cost and the Bush
                                   War in Iraq are greater than any dev aid
                                   we've ever seen, and therefore the US is
                                   the most generous nation on the planet.
                                   God Bless!   -Bush Cheney Lay Skilling #1!
                                \_ what about china?
                                   \_ China is not exactly in the position
                                      to help anyone.  If China can leveage
                                      millions of people out of poverty, it
                                      will be considered an act of huge
                                      favor toward humanintarian cause.
                                \_ Seeing how many super powers on this list: 1
                                \_ screw this percentage of GDP crap, and show
                                   us the real absolute numbers.  Do you think
                                   the needy  will be more grateful for $100
                                   from a rich man than $1 from a pauper?
                                   \_ No, but Jesus taught that the latter
                                      is a bigger gift.
                                      \_ Who?
                                         \_ Jesus Holy-shit Christ.
                                            \_ What?!  I learned on the motd
                                               that His middle name was
                                               "tapdancing".  Is this a
                                               different guy?
                                   \_ Oh come on, he was doing a good job
                                      lying with statistics.  Don't try to
                                      bring hard numbers into it.

                                      \_ How is percentage lying?  I believe
                                         the claim was "most generous"
                                         Generosity is a measure of sacrifice,
                                         not absolute dollar value.
                 \_ The US did go all the way to Beijing in 1900.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
              \_ US is the leading superpower. If it wasn't US, it would be
                 Spain, France, Holland, Germany, UK, China, Japan, or someone
                 else. Don't think that w/o the US the power vacuum would be
                 filled with some peaceloving nation. As world powers decline,
                 others rise to take their place. Only the names change.
              \_ Those people should be asked their definition of "World
                 Peace."  I don't see how we have World Peace now, so how
                 can anyone threaten it?  Is Dafur (and other such places)
                 not the automatic biggest threat to world peace, since
                 they keep it from existing in the first place?
                 \_ Darfur doesn't count to these people.  They're brown,
                    they're foreign, they have a different religion/culture/
                    language/everything and worst of all, they're poor so if
                    they're getting slaughtered hey let's just have another
                    UN meeting in a few months to discuss the exact definition
                    of genocide.  Once the UN's Human Rights Commission's
                    sub-committee on the definition of genocide gets back to
                    us next year we can then decide if that definition fits
                    Darfur but only after the government there releases figures
                    telling us how many they're killing per day and why each
                    one was killed.
              \_ We didn't kill *millions* with nuclear weapons, more like
                 300,000.  Not to justify it or anything, just pointing out
                 that you're off by a factor of ten.
                 \_ Agreed.  About the same number of civilians the Japanese
                    killed in the Rape of Nanjing alone.
                 \_ Agreed.  About the same as the number of civilians the
                    Japanese killed in the Rape of Nanjing alone.
        \_ I know where you're coming from, but believe me, Kim Jong Il is not
           the guy you want to defend on this sovereignty issue.
2006/6/20-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43438 Activity:nil
6/19    Why have the Christians turned against our soldiers?
        http://www.godhatesfags.com/photos/2006/20060607_arkansas.html
        \_ In fairness, looking at Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist and asking
           why Christians hate US troops is a bit like looking at the Nazis
           and asking why socialists want to exterminate the Jews.
           \_ The Nazis were facist, not socialist.
              \_ Uh what?  You know what socialism is, right?  They were
                 socialists.
                 \_ Uh no they weren't.  Facism and extreme socialism can
                    look simaler, but there are huge differnces.  And just
                    because Nazi had socialism in the name doesn't make them
                    socialists.  Just like calling yourself El Presidente
                    doesn't make your dictatorship a democracy.
                    \_ And Phelps may call himself a Christian, but his
                       actions would paint him otherwise.
                    \_ So in what ways were the Nazis not "extreme socialists"?
                 \_ The Nazis believed in State control of the economy?
                    Really? Also, why did the Nazis kill all the Communists
                    and Socialists the first thing upon seizing power???
                    You historical revisionists always crack me up...
                    \_ Are you saying the Nazi economy was something other
                       than state controlled?  Could a Jewish company owner
                       have done good business in Nazi Germany?  If you don't
                       know that communist != socialists....
                    \_ Ignorant != Revisionist
                    \_ Fascism is a mixture of corporatism and state
                       syndicalism in a highly nationalist context.  It very
                       much postulates a very regimented economic environment
                       whose primary function is to serve state interests.  In
                       this sense it is very similar to socialism, although it
                       generally allows for private ownership of the means of
                       production, as long as these shut up and put up.  Sort
                       of like China today.  -John
                       \_ Since state interests in China = PRC leadership
                          interests these days, it's hard to tell if this is
                          socialism, fascism, or oligarchy.
                          \_ Yes.
2006/6/5-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43280 Activity:nil
6/5     YHOO, worse than GOOG and MSFT in terms of helping Chinese authorities
        http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6079478.html
2006/6/3-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:43267 Activity:nil
6/3     I took several years of Chinese in Berkeley. Ranch 99 in Albany has
                                                     \_ 99 Ranch
        quite a few wanted ads posted in Chinese for tenants, many requiring
        you to be female or be of Chinese ethnicity. This makes me very
        angry. Isn't this clearly DISCRIMINATION and can I sue them?
        Do I have a case? ACLU claims this is not legal:
        http://www.aclunc.org/language/lang-report.html
        \_ Honestly, I'd rather face direct discrimination in this case
           than hidden discrimination.  I mean, all they have to
           do is say "no" to whomever they don't want and not explain
           why, and it is difficult to make a case.  At least
           this way you don't waste your time.  --PeterM
        \_ The ACLU doesn't seem to say it's illegal in housing.  -tom
           \_ But CA law does.  See below.
        \_ Unless this is a roommate situation, it's illegal to advertise for
           female-only tenants. Sue 'em on that.
        \_ California's FEHA is the primary state law which prohibits
           discrimination in the sale, rental, lease negotiation, or
           financing of housing based on a person's race, religion,
           national origin, color, sex, marital status, ancestry, family
           status, disability,sexual orientation, and source of income.
           http://www.shastafairhousing.org/California2001.pdf
        \_ I don't know how they phrase it in ranch 99, but I usually
           state my "preference" on my craigslist ad. If you are a
           business managing an apartment complex, then you probably
           shouldn't say "female only", but if someone's just looking
           for a roommate, then I don't see what the big problem is.
        \_ This stuff has gone on in Berkeley for decades.
           \_ Well then, we need to sue Berkeley. Reverse discrimination
              is bad for our superior Ayran race!
2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:43142 Activity:nil
5/22    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060522/od_nm/leisure_nixon_odd_dc
        First they made an opera called Nixon in China. Maybe we'll see
        an opera called Bush in Iraq in the future. One can only hope.
        \_ Nixon ineptly invaded China on false pretenses leading to
           civil war and shattering what little stability was left in
           the region?  I need to keep up on my history!
           \- ObTrivia: the "they" that did the NIXON IN CHINA opera is
              composer JOHN ADAMS, who happens to live in BERKELEY. He is
              also the fellow that did the DOCTOR ATOMIC opera about fmr
              UCB Physics Prof ROPPENHEIMER, which you may have heard about
              last year. ROPPHENHEIMER's brother FOPPENHEIMER is the "they"
              behind the EXPLORATORIUM who both went to the same high school
              in NYC as my friend whose bday is today. ok tnx.
2006/5/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Finance/Shopping] UID:42989 Activity:low
5/9     Dear motd. Suppose a friend wants to maximize his wedding plans and
        would like to get the biggest bang for the bucks. He would like to
        invite as many people to the banquet as possible without
        losing too much money and without pissing people off. The only way
        to do so is by having the wedding back in Asia, which is not an
        option for him since most of his friends are in California. He's
        thinking about inviting as many close friends as possible so that
        red envelopes would recoup some of the costs, while minimizing
        the number of non-Asian people since they rarely give red envelopes.
        By the way I don't want to get into the whole topic of why many
        Americans we've met are so culturally insensitive, ignorant,
        careless, and rude that they give gifts instead of traditional
        auspicious red envelopes with amounts that at least recoup the
        cost of the wedding banquet. We especially want to avoid inviting
        non-Asians people who may unknowingly give really really cursed
        items like clocks, knives, and things that end up with the number
        four, or uneven number of things-- one more reason to not invite
        non-Asians. Anyways, depending on the quality of food and where he
        holds the banquet, each table is ~$500 for 10 people, and if he
        invites too many non-Asians he'll end up losing a lot of money and
        have bad luck. What's the best way to go about this? Is it ok to
        invite everyone to the vow thing and then exclude non-Asians to the
        banquet as to decrease bad luck and increase overall fortune of
        the year? Thanks so much for any advice.
        the year? Thanks so much for any advice.
        \_ This is clearly a simple optimization problem with several variables
           and a few unknown constants.  We who study this problems cannot help
           because your unknown constants cannot be determined without the a
           certain about uncertainty (how odd), and perhaps a cultural anthropoligist.
           If offending your non-Asian friends costs you more money in terms of lost
           gifts than would be recouped by Red Envelopes, then you must avoid
           inviting Asians at all.  Don't forget you could always sell the gifts
           on E-bay.  The tricky part comes when analyzing the bad-luck gifts.
           Just how much income will you lose from dieing early if given a small clock
           vs. a large clock. This we cannot know.  Now to be serious.
           Weddings are for your family and friends, not yourself you selfish bastard.
           certain about uncertainty (how odd), and perhaps a cultural
           anthropoligist.  If offending your non-Asian friends costs you more
           money in terms of lost gifts than would be recouped by Red
           Envelopes, then you must avoid inviting Asians at all.  Don't
           forget you could always sell the gifts on E-bay.  The tricky part
           comes when analyzing the bad-luck gifts.  Just how much income will
           you lose from dieing early if given a small clock vs. a large clock.
           This we cannot know.  Now to be serious.  Weddings are for your
           family and friends, not yourself you selfish bastard.
           \_ 80 column your ass, you inconsiderate bastard.
        \_ Your friend's mentality is completely fucked up and completely
           misinterperate the tradition.
           The way it suppose to work is actually rather simple.  At the
           front of the benquet, there is typically a team of three or four
           that acted as account receivable.  As soon as the guest give out
           the envelope, the account receivable will 1. OPEN THE ENVELOPE,
           COUNT THE MONEY HE/SHE GAVE, and 2. write down how much he/she gave
           out in the "income statement."
           Why keep such record?  because when it's his/her turn to get
           married,  you typically give the same amount back as SOCIAL NORM
           dictates.
           In other word.  The tradition is designed to, effectively, lend
           the money to the new couples, when they need the money the most,
           and return the money to him/her when it's their turn to get married.
           The only exception to the rule is that you happened to have some
           rich friends and you happens to be poor.  The tradition allow
           the wealthy to channel the funds to those in needs without having
           the recipein losing face.
           The social norm dictates that if you are out of town and have little
           chance to attend other's wedding, then, don't have such banquet.
           or says flat out in the invitation that red envelopes will NOT be
           accepted.   and Yes, having such statement in the invitation is not
           as uncommon as you think.
           In short, stop being a cheap bastard in the name of tradition.
                                                kngharv

           \_ Hang on--this doesn't make sense.  So let's say I'm single and
              I "lend" $100 to my newlywed friend in his time of greatest
              financial need as a wedding "gift".  If I ever get married,
              according to your setup, he would simply be "repaying" me if
              he gave me $100 as a gift, not "lending" to me in my time of
              greatest financial need.  How about, if you're going to give
              a cash gift, just look at it as just that, a gift?  -John
              \_ You are right.  It is cash gift.  But there is an unspoken
                 rule that when it's your turn to get married, he/she will
                 also gives you the money in return.  How he determine
                 how much he is going to give you?  he digs out the income
                 statement and look at how much you gave the last time and
                 start from there.  There are a lot of factors involved and
                 I was simplifying it to make a point.  What are other factors?
                 the place where he/she held banquet, for example.  Normally
                 we try to rough guess how much each head cost in a particular
                 place and try to make sure the margin I made on my wedding
                 is roughly the same margin he is going to make.  There is no
                 hard rule here.  People is not going to hold anything against
                 you if you forgot to factor in, for example, inflations.
                 Because a wedding invitation == money.  There is a phenomenon
                 which you may find interesting.  It is typically for a bride/
                 groom to have couple extra tables, and there will be people
                 come to the banquet uninvited.   The logic behind such
                 uninvited guest is following:"you may think you and I don't
                 know each other well enough for you to ask money for me, but
                 I felt I am good enough friend for you and thus I will attend
                 your banquet, give you my blessing and of course cash gift."
                 fun?                                   kngharv
              \_ Ok let's say I give $100 to my friend and 10 years passed
                 and it's my turn to get married. Should he give me $100 plus
                 inflation rate? Also what if I get married 10 times, is that
                 fair?
                 \_ If you get married 10 times, you need all the help you
                    can get...
        \_ Don't invite these people to the wedding at all.  Instead,
           hold a party for all your friends a few weeks afterwards (or
           whenever you're recovered from the wedding).  It'll be much
           cheaper, they won't feel obligated to give you gifts you don't
           want, and everyone will probably have more fun anyway.
           \_ Yes but in the Chinese tradition, the more the merrier.
        \_ There are really two things at work here: a) you're a cheapass
           bastard, and b) you're a superstitious bastard.  Why should the
           motd work for you if you're not going to do anything for the motd
           in return?
        \_ You should have listened to your mom:  Study more and stop hanging
           around with those white folk.  Bad for grades!
           \_ Now that I'm older, I know better :( Mommy says the whities
              I hang around with blow all their incomes on pleasure instead
              of real estate, do drugs, and don't study. I'm a bad son. -op
        \_ True (sad) story:
           I gave a set of really expensive knives as a wedding gift to
           one of my best friends. Within a year his wife had filed for
           divorce and shortly after that (before the divorce even went
           through) she died in a car accident. I am not superstitious,
           but lots of people told me knives are 'bad' gifts. I won't try
           that again. By the way, your post is a poor attempt at a troll.
           \_ Is your friend Chinese? Whether it's your fault or not, one
              thing is certain: the Chinese community gossips a lot, and
              most of them by now think that you're an yang chi idiot and
              will not invite you to their weddings.
           \_ Jesus H. Christ are really such an egotist that you think
              any of this bad luck had anything to do with what YOU bought
              as a wedding gift?
              \_ "I am not superstitious". No, I don't. However, when
                 there are so many other gifts to give, I won't chance it.
                 \_ "I'm not superstitious, I just won't step on cracks in
                    the sidewalk."  -tom
                    \_ I did once and my mother's back broke. Why chance it?
                 \_ The only reason I wouldn't give someone a knife as a
                    wedding gift is think how bad I'd feel if there was
                    a really bad fight and a spouse stabbed the other
                    with the knife I bought.  Don't give weapons as gifts.
        \_ Ditto above about the troll, but generally, a lot of us hairy
           barbarian gwailo gaijin types don't know about these superstitions,
           and I find it pretty interesting to learn this sort of stuff.
           Maybe include a little primer or something?  Or would people find
           that condescending?  And not to sound insensitive, but do you (pp)
           really blame the knives?  -John
           \_ Red envelopes are very auspicious. But you can't just put in
              ANY money, you have to put in nice clean bills, as a sign of
              purity. The amount must be even number, and the term
              "double happiness" should be reflected. $22, $222, $2222 are
              extremely good. Also ba, the number 8 is VERY VERY good. $88,
              $888 are very good. Never, ever, give things that have 4 in
              them, because it is just one tone away from the word death.
              Wedding registry gifts-- they're ok if the Chinese guy is a
              total ignorant banana in which case anything goes, so better
              ask if the groom/bride are ABC bananas. NEVER, EVER give knives
              and clocks unless you want the gossipy Chinese community
              to hate you for the rest of your life. Clock is the same tone
              as "your demise", or "RIP". And BTW it's not uncommon to not
              invite whities to Chinese banquets because often they have
              exotic food that piss off foreigners, or that the foreigners
              start to become annoying and authoritative and ask silly
              questions about the food (you just don't question their
              culture, just accept it at the wedding ok?). So if you're a
              whitie and you're invited, you should feel proud of yourself
              for making it in the inner circle. Lastly the Chinese culture
              says if you have a vacation home in Santiago Chile you are
              obligated to offer them to use it any time they want. Ok
              that's all I've got for now.      -Motd Culture Consultant #2
              \_ Haha this is actually pretty good, thanks.  As for "not
                 inviting whiteys", I turned the "let's gross out the gaijin
                 for fun" around on a whole Japanese restaurant in Tokyo
                 once, where they all somehow felt honor-bound to choke down
                 the live-fish-in-sake they served us just because I chugged
                 them instead of making a face and sending them back.  That'll
                 show 'em, HAH.  Anyway, I thought not inviting gwailos was
                 just because we're funny looking and weird.  So what would
                 be kosher non-monetary gifts then?  -John
              \_ So what if you give them four knives?  Do they run away
                 screaming? ;-)
              \_ This is very helpful. I kind of knew this stuff but my
                 Chinese friends never actually explained it. Those assholes.
                 They just let me infer it. So I'm gonna give them a set of
                 4 knives which each have a little digital clock in the handle.
                 Actually, they probably wouldn't give a shit. So I'll send
                 them to their mothers ;)
                 \_ Yes. Most ABC bananas today don't give a shit. But
                    their parents will probably have a heart attack.
                    So, be nice.
           \_ I think John's hit this one on the nose. Turn this into an
              educational experience. If some westerners consider giving
              money too crass, then they shouldn't come. The point of a
              wedding is to celebrate your love, not their cultural comfort
              zone. Also, those red (or, in Japan, white) envelopes really
              help with the cost. --erikred
           \_ FYI, Japanese gives out red envelopes on weddings too.
        \_ have a wedding you can afford.  Your guests aren't there to pay
           for your wedding you cheapass asian.  -frugal asian
        \_ why don't you have two banquets, Eastern and Western style
           invite each guest to the appropriate one.
           \_ Best idea I've seen so far. Invite friends and family to
              the nice exclusive banquet with exotic gourmet shark fins,
              dog meat, intestines, liver, and bobas while excluding
              foreigners who may feel offended or grossed out. Then invite
              the white people over to your backyard for BBQ, cheap beer,
              and football. Great idea!
              \_ Gwailo not appreciate gourmet shark fin.  All gwailo eat
                 roast cow.  And treat black people bad.  -John
        \_ I had a Vietnamese/white wedding and my wife's family all gave
           red envelopes and my family all gave gifts from the registry.
           But we returned almost all the gifts and got store credit, which
           is almost as good. In white culture you are supposed to give a
           gift which is approximately the same value as the cost of your
           seat at the banquet plus wedding costs, so it is the same tradition,
           almost. -ausman
           \_ What the hell is "white culture"?  Is that like yoghurt?  -John
           \_ why the heck are you registering for items you don't want?  I
              find these fundraising weddings to be really, rather crass.
              \_ I agree, and I think Miss Manners would dispute any
                 inference that you are "supposed" to give any certain
                 value of gift.  If you attend the wedding, you're supposed
                 to send a gift (not *bring* a gift, *send* a gift to
                 the couple afterwards), and as with all gifts, the giver
                 gets to decide how much to spend.  -tom
                 \_ http://tinyurl.com/z8t6t
                    How are these numbers determined. I'm afraid that, as
                    romantic as weddings may be, arriving at the appropriate
                    value for a wedding gift tends to be based on cold, hard
                    economics. If you are attending the wedding, you want to
                    ensure that the value of your gift will cover the cost the
                    hosts will incur by having you in attendance. Think in
                    terms of the type and style of wedding, and where it will
                    be held. What amount do you think will be required to cover
                    the cost of your meal? Obviously, a cake and punch
                    reception in the couple's back yard will cost less than a
                    formal sit down meal in the city's swankiest skyline
                    restaurant. Once you've estimated what it will cost to
                    cover your meal, you'll want to add another "bonus" amount
                    so they actually get a gift in the end, and don't simply
                    recoup the cost of hosting you. Etiquette queens of days
                    gone by would claim that guests should never have to
                    consider the cost's of their host in determining what to
                    give as a gift. True enough, you don't have to run these
                    calculations, but a truly gracious guest is naturally
                    inclined to do so, out of their genuine desire to treat
                    the bride and groom, and to be generous on, what is to the
                    couple a very special occasion.
                 But there is also:
                 http://tinyurl.com/zwcxs
                 "Guests will choose a gift based on their budget and on how
                 well they know you. They are not obligated to cover the cost
                 of their meal and they should not even know how much you paid
                 for your reception. To give out that information is considered
                 bragging and has no bearing on what your guests will give."
                 So I guess there are various schools of thought on this one.
                 \_ I would not truest a website's advice on gift giving,
                    especially one from a industry that profits from such.
              \_ We already have a house we had bought three years before,
                 but lots of people coming to the wedding wanted to buy
                 us gifts anyway. We had to come up with something. We found
                 a few that we actually wanted, but mostly we wanted gift
                 cards, but almost no one in my family gave that, because
                 they have that save attitude as the anonymous flamer that
                 it is really, rather crass. Is it better to have an attic
                 full of stuff you don't want? I really don't see what the
                 point of that is. But yeah, I didn't tell anyone I returned
                 their gift. No point in that. The truth is, there is no
                 "one size fits all cultures" answer to the question. -ausman
                 \_ Until they come over to your house for Thanksgiving and
                    wonder why you are dining on Ikeaware instead of the
                    Limoges china you returned for a big screen TV.
                    \_ If someone gives you Limoges china, why would you
                       not use it?  Unless it's butt-ugly, of course.  -John
                       \_ I know a lot of people who would say that the
                          china is nice, but that they need x and that
                          they can buy x (and probably y and z, too) if
                          they return the china that they will use only
                          twice per year. I think it's low class and
                          tacky (plus, I *like* to break out the china
                          unlike a lot of people) to return expensive
                          gifts in favor of gift cards and that, I suppose,
                          is my point.
2006/5/8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:42974 Activity:low
5/8     Teaching taiwanese traditional chinese characters (30 million)
        vs Communist China simplified chinese (1.3 billion):
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/08/MNGJLINAOP1.DTL - danh
        \_ haha: "creator of Hanzi Smatter"
2006/5/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:42933 Activity:nil
5/4     China's unsavory friends
        http://csua.org/u/fpj
        and a cartoon on the same
        http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20060503
        \_ Replace Mao with Uncle Sam, and Sudan oil with Iraq oil:
           "Why hasn't the U.S. done anything to help Darfur?"
           \_ think Rwanda... then, you see some consistency.  I think the
              only reason why US talked about Darfur is because US want to
              pick fight with Arabs anyway they can.
              \_ nah, the only reason why US talked about Darfur is because
                 talk == cheap
           \_ I'm sorry you didn't read the article.
              \_ I'm sorry the comic didn't summarize the article.
                 \_ You expected to get complete and fair treatment from a
                    one-panel cartoon?  I guess that explains a lot about
                    your opinions.  BTW, the cartoonist is Canadian.
        \_ a friendly reminder.  Saudi Arabia still chop people's hands off
           and gauge people's eyes out.  I wouldn't consider Saudi any
           better than Uzbekistan.  *FURTHER*, you may or may not remember
           Uzbekistan was US's friend in the war on Terror.
                \_ Not to mention publically beheading adulterers and gays.
                   The USA has 0 credibility on these matters as long as
                   Bush is holding hands/french kissing King Abdullah.
        \_ Further, I would actually prefer China's position of respect
           UN charter on self-determination... something that imperial power
           in Europe and Americas can hardly understand.
           \_ Yeah, China's ALL ABOUT self-determination, like in Hong Kong
              and Taiwan.
              \_ Hong Kong and Taiwan part of China.   It different.  You
                 not understand, gwailo.  American treat their black
                 people bad.  -John
                 \_ Get used to it, John.  Japan lost the war and China
                    gotten Taiwan back.  And one day, China will make sure
                    Ryukyu get back their independence from Japan.
                    \_ Good please be self-determine oppressed Inuit as well
                       (Alaska historically part of Han China.)  -John
           \_ Wow, I didn't realize murdering half your population was
              covered under "self-determination."  I'm sorry, are all the
              black people in Sudan self-determining themselves to death?
              \_ hey, US supplies arms to Turkey to crack down on Kurds, no?
                 how about Spain and Basques? how about UK and Northern
                 Ireland?
                 \_ This has got to be a troll.  No one on soda is really
                    this stupid, are they?
2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:42719 Activity:nil
4/6     Police in China (si-chuan) in action:
        /csua/tmp/kngharv police_chongqing.jpg
2006/4/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:42613 Activity:nil
4/2     http://tinyurl.com/qfcxv (seattletimes.nwsource.com)
        China shuts down Rolling Stone
2006/3/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Food/Alcohol] UID:42504 Activity:high
3/29    http://www.viceland.com/int/v13n3/htdocs/coffee.php?country=us
        Another choice is Chinese food. Chinese-food restaurants above 96th
        street are as ubiquitous as Starbucks coffee shops are in the rest of
        the city, but they look like Mao designed them. A table or two, a
        metal grill door, and two or three gas jets is all you're getting.
        Also, the employees are actually Chinese, and by that I mean two weeks
        ago they were in China. I always feel bad for these guys. Their
        average height is about 5'3", they weigh maybe 95 pounds, and they
        speak no English. And these are the DELIVERYMEN! Not surprisingly,
        they get robbed with alarming frequency. Hell, most women could kick
        their asses. I always like to speculate what these guys' lives are
        like as I take a report and try to find the kids who took their $42
        and BBQ spare ribs. One day you're in China, kicking around the
        countryside, checking on your crops, then three days later you're on
        the 25th floor of a housing project with a bleeding lip and no money,
        trying to explain to me what happened with the 25 English words you
        know. They keep coming over, though, so I can't help but think, "Damn,
        Communist China must really, really suck."
        \_ aspolito has a huge ass.
        \_ Most of the Chinese restaurant workers who came here illegally
           are from Fuzhou, China.  I read a wsj article a year or two ago
           saying that the Fuzhou people no longer care to come to the US,
           because China's economy is booming and there are better
           opportunities there.  That's why these days, I noticed they
           are being quickly replaced by Mexicans.  At its height, the
           Fuzhou guys have a really good network.  Dump one of them in
           Fuzhou-nese have a really good network.  Dump one of them in
           any US city, and he would be able to find someone from his
           hometown, and thus find work and housing, and make a living,
           albeit a not very good one, relatively speaking.
           hometown, and thus find work and housing, and survive.  Their
           superb overseas network was one of the reasons why many of
           them were able to come the US to work for a while, make some
           money, and then go home.
           money, and then go home.  Fuzhou is part of the Fujian
           province.  The Fujianese, together with Cantonese, Hakkas,
           Teochews, make up a big part of the Chinese diaspora, and
           dominate the economies of Taiwan, Hongkong, Thailand,
           Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and Filipines.  These dialect
           groups are all from poor fringe coastal regions of southern
           China, though the Hakkas always believed they have royal
           northern bloodlines, and migrated south when northern China
           was invaded.  The poverty of these regions resulted in a
           tradition of emigration and entrepreneurship.
           \_ That's nice. So which group has the prettiest women?
        \_ Are you angry because even they have a job, while you don't?
        \_ Are you angry because they have a job, while you don't?
           \_ I'm not angry.  I thought it was a funny writing piece.  I hope
              the recent Chinese immigrants assimulate into my country and
              lead productive satisfying lives but something tells me they
              won't.
              \_ You are easily amused.
              \_ That's what people always say about new immigrants.  What
                 usually happens is the first generation doesn't assimilate
                 very much and ends up middle class but their kids do fine.
                 \_ I would settle for "ending up middle class".  Nothing
                    wrong with that.
                    \_ Not to Chinese. Haven't you noticed how hard they make
                       their kids study and they all have to be doctors and
                       lawyers? Middle class is failure.
                       \_ Yeah but 1st generation don't end up doctors and
                          lawyers, but a helluva lot better than when they
                          were FOB.
                          \_ Actually, I've been meeting quite a few
                             first generation doctors and lawyers lately.
                             Seems like they have made it easier for
                             foreigners to become doctors in the US.
                             This is bad.  These jobs
                             should be reserved for Americans, and
                             first generation foreigners should stick
                             to restaurant work.
                                \- i think the AMAs efforts to make it harder
                                   for indian and russian doctors to practice
                                   here is well known.
                                   \_ Foreign doctors need to pass the same
                                      board exams everyone else does to
                                      practice here.
                                      \- See e.g. particularly section
                                         on physicians:
              http://www.cepr.net/publications/professional_supplement.htm
                                         I didnt know about the clinical
                                         skills exam that is only given
                                         in Philadelphia. Also, a tricky
                                         part of this is how to "distinguish"
                                         between american who went to foreign
                                         medical schools because they couldnt
                                         get into med school here and
                                         foreigners trained in their home
                                         country who want to come here.
                                         in addition of visa-obtaining
                                         issues, and language testing, there
                                         is the "fifth pathway" program.
                                         I am not an expert on this but it's
                                         well understood that self-regulating
                                         bodies like the ABA and AMA engage
                                         in "income protection" plans under
                                         the guise of "public safety" [yes,
                                         irconic reference to french rev],
                                         see e.g. the nolo v texas case.
                                         BTW, I am not suggesting foreign
                                         trained doctors are as well trained,
                                         but this is an area where the outcomes
                                         area heavily dictated by regulation
                                         rather the "free mkt".
              http://www.cepr.net/publications/professional_supplement.htm
                             \_ Sorry but those comments just spew of
                                complete ignorance.  If 1st generation-ers
                                are competent and contribute in a meaningful
                                way, there should be nothing wrong with that.
                                Do you somehow believe you should have
                                natural right to having everything spoon fed
                                to you?
             \_ I hope they do well too, but I like them doing their
                own thing, which adds diversity and spice to my country.
        \_ Sorry, but I have more sympathy for our kids who get sent to
           places like Vietnam and Iraq, and come back missing a leg, a
           ball, and half a dick, angry and confused as to how they got
           their arse kicked by 80 pounds, 4'9" vietnamese peasant hags
           and stone age desert tribes.  Just browse through the "Names
           of the Dead" ... 18 years old ... 21 years old ... all tender,
           fresh and innocent.  What a waste.
           \_ Good one. It's sad to see our brave soldiers maimed there and
              then come back to the states and wait on the freeway with the
              sign "Vietnam War Soldier Spare a Dime." In addition I have
              to say that these tiny little Viet soldiers on the other side
              did quite a bit of damage despite their lack of equipments
              and trainings. If tiny little men can do big jobs, it makes
              you go hmmmmm. Lastly on my rant I'd like to commend
              these tiny little men who reproduce really hot Vietnamese women

              \_ I am glad you've found solace with tiny little men.
                 Vietnamese girls are not my cup of tea, but hey, if they are
                 a fit for you, whom am I to object.  At least you didn't
                 become a pedophile.
                 \_ If it weren't for tiny little women there would be more
                    pedofiles in America.                       -op
                    \_ thanks for sharing your sexual disposition with us.
           \_ I don't think they were confused.  I think it's pretty clear that
              a 4'9" 80 lbs stone age vietnamese desert tribe peasant can kill
              you when armed with modern weapons in a proxy war fighting on
              their own turf.  Angry?  Probably.  Confused?  Not likely.
              A waste?  Yes, of course, big time.
              \_ Maybe I didn't phrase it right, but I meant confused in
                 the sense of "WTF am I doing in this hellhole getting
                 killed?!  I don't belong here.  I want my mom!"
                 \_ Not the ones I know who have been in combat.
                    \_ Really?  How then did so many of them beoome
                       depressed, suicidal, alcohol and drug addicts,
                       etc.?
                       \_ What is "so many"?  And how does that percent compare
                          to the general population who was never in the
                          military?  Obviously it is an anecdotal sample set
                          but all the ones I know are normal people who came
                          back and got on with their lives.  We've sent
                          millions overseas in the 20th century.  Our society
                          is not overrun by millions of depressed, suicidal,
                          alcoholic drug addicted ex-soldiers.  (But is overrun
                          by millions of depressed, drug addicted civilians).
                          \_ "percent"? "general population"?  "sample set"?
                             Sorry, this is too hard.  I am American.  I
                             watch teevee, and teevee says they're
                             depressed and suicidal.
                          \_ You are right. I am wrong.
2006/3/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:42497 Activity:nil
3/28    "This nonsense of 'jobs Americans won't do' is an age-old lie that's
        been around as long as the republic. Prior to the illegal alien
        problem, the same excuse was applied to the perpetuation of slavery.
        Georgia Representative James Jackson rose in opposition to a Quaker
        petition to end slavery in 1790 by fuming 'that rice cannot be brought
        to market without these people [slaves].'  William Loughton Smith added
        that slavery was an economic precondition for prosperity of his
        constituents, as author Joseph Ellis noted in his book, Founding
        Brothers . 'Such is the state of agriculture,' Smith said, 'that no
        white man would perform the tasks.' "
        http://www.philvalentine.com/IllegalAlienMyth.htm
        \_ this is stupid.  everyone knows 'jobs Americans won't do' means
           'jobs Americans won't do at the current wages'.  There will be
           people willing to do almost anything if the price is high enough.
           \_ And yet that keeps getting dropped in conversation.  And people
              keep acting as if "Americans" won't do the jobs under any
              circumstance.
              \_ yea, but the question is "why pay a higher wage when
                 someone is willing to do it at a lower wage?".  It's
                 laws vs economics.  The biggest loser?  Probably black
                 males whose plight has been deteriorating even during
                 the prosperous 90s.  Unemployment isn't high for other
                 ethnic and gender groups.  If you didn't graduate from
                 high school, yes, your livelihood would likely be
                 affected by the many illegal aliens, but otherwise,
                 you likley won't be affected and may even benefit from a
                 cost standpoint.
                 \_ This post seems like a non sequitur to me. The point
                    is that the employment at the lower wages is illegal,
                    and talking about "jobs Americans won't do" implies
                    all sorts of things which is why people say that. I've
                    seen it raised on the motd, as in "how are you gonna
                    get fresh produce???!11/??"
                    \_ yea, and slavery was legal, so please explain
                       how the comparison with slavery makes sense.
                       \_ slavery was an abomination and is now outlawed
                          everywhere in the world but places you'd never set
                          foot in.  what does the legal status of slavery in
                          this country 150+ years ago in _some_ states have to
                          do with whether or not slavery is ok or the price of
                          berry picking or anything else today?
                          \_ exactly, thus the quote op posted is stupid.
        \_ So the point is 'Jobs American's won't do (for how little we want
            to pay )'.  However, if the employery were to offer to pay what
            it would take to get Americans to work them, would those jobs
            still exist?
            \_ If they need to exist. Some would and some would not. The
               net effect is more jobs for "Americans", although perhaps
               fewer jobs overall.
               \_ nah, it will further increase cost of doing business in
                  the US, and trigger more outsourcing, and moving of
                  factories and jobs overseas.
                  \_ You can't outsource most of these kinds of jobs or
                     that would've already been done. These people are
                     maids, day laborers, farm hands, and the like. Some
                     businesses will fold because of the increased cost of
                     doing business and some won't. Mostly, I think it
                     will be the same amount of $$$ spread out across
                     fewer employees in aggregate.
                     \_ I don't know.  The janitorial and cafeteria
                        people at my company are all hispanics.  So are
                        the people keeping the company's lawn looking good,
                        as are the movers, drivers, etc.  Cost of
                        doing business will increase as living costs
                        increase.  Nobody is talking about outsourcing
                        these jobs, but the rise in cost of doing
                        business.  As it is, we aren't having an
                        easy time competing with China and India.
                        \_ Well, someone above *did* write "trigger more
                           outsourcing" and "mov[e]... factories and jobs
                           overseas." I imagine the cafeteria staff at your
                           company is not comprised of illegal aliens.
                           Gardeners may be. I know that it costs a lot more to
                           have a gardener in places w/o a lot of illegals,
                           even in places where the cost of living is much
                           lower. So fewer people will have gardeners and the
                           gardeners that are hired will make more money, but
                           will probably be better gardeners. I know an
                           old-time tree trimmer and his company has been
                           driven to the brink of bankruptcy by competition
                           with illegal aliens who aren't arborists, but who
                           charge 1/3 the price for the work such as they
                           do it. The cost of doing business will increase,
                           but so will the average wage. More money will
                           stay in the USA, instead of being sent to family
                           abroad. Somehow Europe manages to stay competitive
                           despite higher wages and a higher standard of
                           living. Competing with China and India on price
                           alone is a recipe for disaster, anyway. Maybe
                           people wouldn't need to shop at Wal-Mart for
                           Chinese-made crap if they had more money in
                           their pockets.
                        \_ Yes, the costs will rise.  Or they won't.  And we'll
                           go on with life.
                           \_ life's pretty good as it is today.
                              \_ life was pretty good with slavery.
                                 \_ slaves did not come voluntarily.
2006/3/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42481 Activity:kinda low
3/27    Poll asks if "the free enterprise system and free market economy is the
        best system on which to base the future of the world".
        China: 74% agree
        US: 71% agree
        France: 36% agree
        "Large companies have too much influence over our national govt"
        France: 86% agree
        US: 85% agree
        China: 47% agree
        http://csua.org/u/fcp
        \_ this is a reflection of these nations' standard of living gradient
           \_ Or their competitiveness.
        \_ this is a reflection of these nations' standard of living gradient\
          \_ Or their competitiveness.
        \_ Pretty funny to see a higher acceptance in China than the US...
           \_ even more funny when these guys are calling China the Communist
              evil empire.
2006/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:42295 Activity:high
3/17    http://www.othercinema.com/otherzine/?issueid=15&articleid=38
        Hu Jintao presented a number of new initiatives, which are very
        important for all the people of China.
        \_ "The goal is to produce white/asian babies of IQ 120 or higher."
           Assuming IQ is averaged among two couples, and assuming Hu's
           sending outstanding Chinamen which we can presume to be IQ 140
           or higher, then these Chinamen need to breed with a lot of white
           women that have IQ 100 or higher. Isn't that hard to do
           considering the dearth of smart white blond women, and secondly
           the obvious abundance but distracting ditzy airheaded valley girls
           and blondes in the heart of religious Go-George-Bush America who
           are obviously lower than 100 IQ?
        \_ Please tell me this is a parody. My craziness sensor for what China
           would actually attempt to do leads me to believe there is a chance
           it is not.
           \_ "Hu Jintao then revealed that on its next mission, the Shenzhou
              spacecraft will carry 200 kilograms of the purest and highest
              quality Chinese sperm"
              \_ This, of course, is Hu Jintao's sperm. He has been quite
                 busy in preparation. (By the way, shouldn't they also send
                 up some eggs, so the ETs can reconstruct some humans?
2006/3/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:42119 Activity:high
3/6     Government monitors spending patterns as a flag for
        possible terrorist activities: http://csua.org/u/f5u
        \_ A friend of mine sent money overseas to his family in Asia. It
           was only $10,000USD but it's a lot in that part of the country.
           A day later he got a call from the FBI asking what the money's for.
           I thought the US gov only cared about money coming in (to fund
           fundamentalists) but I guess they care about everything.
           \_ Where in Asia? My wife sent back $40k (inheritance) from Japan,
              but I don't think that's that unusual for Japan <> USA.
           \_ YMMV.  My wife and I have received >> $10k from Hong Kong
           \_ YMMV.  My wife and I have received >> $10m from Hong Kong
              with nary a peep from Govco.
           \_ YMMV.  My wife and I have repatriated >> $10m from Hong Kong
              with nary a peep from Govco. --cpatten
              \_ $10m? WTF are you doing posting on soda's motd?
                 \_ Dear motd re-editor, case sensitivity matters.
           \_ I think "where in asia?" is a valid question in this case.
           \_ I write one $1k check per month from my B of A checking account
              to my dad's B of A checking account, and he regularly withdraws
              the money in Hong Kong.  We've been doing it for over seven
              years, and neither of us have ever heard from the FBI.
              \_ oooh HK, I bet the US government's really afraid of
                 angry yellow Cantonese Muslims trying to do something
                 little yellow Cantonese Muslims trying to do something
                 bad to us good Christians.
                 \- I endorse the OLD MANDARIN MUSLIM CHINESE RESTAURANT
                    \_ now you are making me hungry.  sour cabbage mutton
                       soup clay pot and thick fat breads.  yummy!
                       \- you may enjoy ball hot pot then:
                          http://csua.org/u/f60
2006/3/2-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Health/Women] UID:42075 Activity:nil
3/2     sham acupuncture is as effective as traditional chinese acupuncture
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060302/hl_nm/acupuncture_dc
        hahahaha that is hilarious.
        \- Sham acupuncture: Ancient Chinese Secret.
2006/3/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42060 Activity:nil
3/1     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060301/ap_on_fe_st/china_spitting_crackdown
        Beijing is launching a campaign to stamp out widespread public
        spitting in an effort to clean up its image for the 2008 Olympics.
        It also promised to allow spitting after the Olympics is over.
2006/3/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:42054 Activity:nil
3/1     ACM has produced a significant new report on the impact
        of offshoring/outsourcing on the IT industry:
        http://www.acm.org/globalizationreport
        Executive Summary and Findings:
        http://www.acm.org/globalizationreport/summary.htm
        Bottom line: not nearly as bad as some had thought.
        http://CCNMoney.com article
        http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/23/news/economy/jobs_it_offshoring
2006/3/1-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Finance] UID:42043 Activity:nil
3/1     Private equity funds are raping people, laying off thousands
        and spreading enough misery around the people who actually
        have to work for a living before our Chinese masters
        really screw with us, and all the San Francisco Chronicle
        can do is send some dude to Google and photograph ultra rich
        nerds eating?  Fuck.
        \_ KILL THE BIRDS
        \_ Spew much?
        \_ Amusing but if you're using the SF Comical as your primary source
           of serious news you get what you pay for.  For 25 cents/day I got
           the comics and their trimmed down version of AP news on BART.
2006/2/23-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Health/Men] UID:41980 Activity:nil 74%like:41979
2/23    How come mainland Chinese people say number 1 as "Yao1" instead of
        the standard "Yi1"? Also why do they say "we" as "zhai2 men"
        instead of the standard "wo3 men"? Are there subtle semantic
        differences?
        \_ First of all, this is not a "mainland China" thing.  The orgin
           of this prounciation came from military, as they discover
           the prounciation of one and seven (yi1 and qi1) sounds too similar
           over the radio.  Note that this is not some sort of cryptic code,
           as military in Taiwan uses the same prounciation as well :p
           It merely a military way of prounciating number in a more distincted
           manner:  1 become yao1, 7 become guai3, 0 become dong4, etc.
           Americans do something similar with prounciation of alphabets over
           the radio too.
           There is a subtle differences between "zai men" and "wo men."
           "zai men" is a more narrowly defined and strictly used when
           yourself as a person is included.  So, a wrong way to use "zai men"
           is in the context of, let say "we the nation of Chinese..."
           Having said that, "zai men" is more of an oral lingo (mostly
           in Northern part of China) and should not be used in formal writing.
                                                - kngharv
          \_ Do you know what does "lao4 ke'er1" mean?  I heard it
             said b4 but don't know what it means.
2006/2/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41857 Activity:kinda low
2/15    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/15/business/yuan.php
        China says the US should relax export restrictions of high tech
        if it wants to fix the trade deficit.
        \_ "In a complex and challenging time, the road of isolationism and
            protectionism may seem broad and inviting -- yet it ends in danger
            and decline." -GWB
        \_ What?  Are they tired of stealing everything?
        \_ china's trade surplus with the US is overrated.  most of the
           exported goods have componenets made in other asian countries.
           china only does the finally assembling.  that is why china has
           a big trade deficit vis-a-vis other asian countries.
           essentially the other asian countries "exported" their trade
           surplus with the US to China.  The overall US trade deficit with
           asia also decreased recently.  so don't blame china, blame our
           wonderful allies like japan, taiwan, south korea, singapore, etc.
           \- bilateral trade deficits dont mean anything. meanings of
              aggregate trade deficits open to debate.
              \_ the other thing is many of the products are made by US
                 companies in China, and these companies will send
                 the profits back to US (or are owned by US investors,
                 anyway).
        \_ trade deficit with S.Korea, EU, Japan, Mexico and Canada also
           reached record high.  I think it's time to pressure these
           countries to re-evaulate their currencies.
           \_ yes, these countries (except Mexico) make products that
              compete with us, unlike China.  We should keep the yuan
              cheap so we can buy cheap stuff, and rein in inflation.
2006/2/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Industry/Startup] UID:41774 Activity:low
2/8     Shame!  I'm glad I don't work there anymore.
        http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=internetNews&storyid=2006-02-09T030219Z_01_PEK27612_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-YAHOO.xml&rpc=22
        \_ Did you get rich from your stock options though?
           \_ No.  I got my paycheck and quit after a short time because
              working there sucked.  All the dirty stuff came out after I
              quit and only makes me feel that much better about having quit,
              so I don't have to convince myself everyday that my place of
              work isn't evil.
        \_ Where do you work now?
2006/2/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign] UID:41773 Activity:low
2/8     http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/08/technology/yahoo_china/index.htm
        YHOO more fucked up than GOOG
        "The choice is not whether to comply with law enforcement demands for
        information. The choice is whether to remain in the country. We believe
        that the Internet is a positive force in China."
        -Mary Osako, Yahoo! Director of Communications
        \_ What don't you agree with in that quote?  That makes sense to me...
           I'm not talking about the case as a whole, just that quote.
           --dbushong
           \_ Well, I think it would have been more honest of Ms. Osako to say:
              "By complying with law enforcement demands, we can remain in the
              country, and we believe that Yahoo!'s presence is a positive
              force in China."  What she has said reeks of dishonesty and
              marketing bullshit, IMO.
              \_ ...if you say so.
              \_ Do you expect them to say the really honest thing "By
                 complying with law enforcement demands, we can remain in
                 country X, and we believe that Yahoo!'s presence in country X
                 is going to bring in huge profits for the company.  If it just
                 so happens that Yahoo!'s presence is a positive force in
                 country X, that's good."?
                 \_ nah, i like my quote better.  it offers the "hope" of
                    being honest
                 \_ i want a plausible lie, not one that says, "you fucks,
                    why are you making me lie, i'm going to say something
                    ridiculous so you know i'm lying"
2006/2/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:41638 Activity:nil
2/1     Where is jblack these days?
        \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ Obviously you've never served.
              \_ Are you chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                 the opium trade had on China?
                 \_ I bet BUD DAY understands the effects of the opium trade!
                    \_ Not after a GUN DUEL he won't.
                       \_ um, RIDE BIKE!
2006/1/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41510 Activity:kinda low
1/24    "Google Agrees to Censor Results in China" http://csua.org/u/erf
        \_ "Do no evil!"
        \_ if you want to do business there, then, follow the local law.
           if you want to bring changes there... well... that tend to be
           less profitable.
           \_ So why don't they follow the "local law" here?
              \_ [learn to indent]
            \_ They do.  They have a reasonable belief that the American
               government's request for search records is illegal.  If they
               lose their court case they WILL hand over the searches.  That's
               what law is all about.
              \_ They are. Refusing to comply with a request can be done
                 within the law.
        \_ Those who would sacrifice integrity for a little temporary
           prosperity deserve neither integrity nor prosperity.
        \_ This is all a sideshow, meant to distract you.
           Someone should really be asking Sergey:
           "What will you do if the Chinese government asks you provide
           identifying information for specific searches, or the capability
           to obtain thereof, or have you done so already?"
2006/1/23-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41487 Activity:nil
1/23    Is there a URL that can tell me what the proper strokes are
        to write Chinese characters? MS Chinese recognizer doesn't
        recognize words when you write with wrong strokes. Thanks.
        \_ it's going to be a bit hard to find those.  There are
           certain stroke rules.  and beyond that, everything follows
           the rule.  Chinese tend to take these rules for granted so
           there is hardly any literature about it.
2006/1/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:41439 Activity:nil
1/20    http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/futureinvest/2237
        India and China to enjoy prosperity for the next few decades.
        \_ Possibly.  Or possibly not.  Especially in China's case.  They have
           some serious issues with food supply/arable land.  *SEVERE* water
           pollution and a few zillion less than entirely happy peasants in a
           constant state of low level revolt.  India is a better bet now that
           they appear to have resolved their issues with Pakistan such that
           nuclear war isn't very likely and they're working on modernising
           their internal structure, legal system and education system.  They
           are still a third world country by any measure but are working on
           it.
           \_ Just OOC, not disagreeing with you, what would pessimists have
              said in a similar vein about the prospects for the US in, say,
              1940?  (and _why_ would they have ended up being wrong)
              \- IMHO, the india-pak threat was never both of them going
                 to nuclear war, it was pakistan having a meltdown. and that
                 is still possible and that is a problem for more than india.
              \_ The US became a power because of its natural resources.
                 While China and India also have lots of natural
                 resources, their populations are much larger.
2006/1/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41384 Activity:moderate
1/16    Life in China
        http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/16/international/asia/16cnd-china.html
        "'The police arrived at 8 p.m., and then started beating people from 9
        p.m., trying to disperse the crowd,' said a schoolteacher who spoke by
        telephone, giving her name only as Yang. 'When this happened, the crowd
        got very angry and lots of people picked up stones on the ground and
        threw them at the policemen. After being attacked, policemen were
        furious, they just beat up everyone, using their batons.'"
        \_"The police are not here to create disorder,
           they're here to preserve disorder."
        \_ "Indeed, demonstrating residents of Panlong village said their anger
           had been sparked by a government land acquisition program they had
           been led to believe in 2003 was part of a construction project to
           build a superhighway connecting the nearby city of Zhuhai with
           Beijing. Later, the villagers learned the land was being re-sold to
           developers to set up special chemical and garment industrial zones
           in the area."  This doesn't just sound like China...
           in the area."  When life (here) imitates China...
        \_"The police are not here to create disorder, they're here to
           preserve disorder."
        \_ "Indeed, demonstrating residents of Panlong village said their
            anger had been sparked by a government land acquisition program
            they had been led to believe in 2003 was part of a construction
            project to build a superhighway connecting the nearby city of
            Zhuhai with Beijing. Later, the villagers learned the land was
            being re-sold to developers to set up special chemical and
            garment industrial zones in the area."  When life (here)
            imitates China...
        \_ my friend in Beijing told me that he witnessed a protest
           turned mobs.  What he found amusing was that the mobs, with no
           appearent organization structure, burn the police station to the
           ground but left surrounding shop intacted.  No looting occured at
           all.
        \_ Sounds like the Volleyball Court riots.
2006/1/12-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41365 Activity:kinda low
1/12    http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5381851
        Chinse world map discovered.
        Wow!  I thought Gavin Menzies is a kook, but it seems like he
        may have a case.  Chinese might have circumnavigated the world
        and "discovered" the Americas before Columbus, and the western
        maps might have been derived from the Chinese sources.
        \_ Even if the Chinese did already know that the earth was round, would
           they have had the sailing ability, sans steam engines, to have found
           and map Antartica by 1418?
           \_ not to mention the Arctic Sea
           \_ The Greeks knew the world was round and even calculated the
              circumference. That doesn't mean they visited the Americas.
              \_ Wow!  URL please.
                 \_ Google: greeks world round
                    \_ Better: Eratosthenes
        \_ very cool link.  Thanks.
        \_ I would like to add one thing.  The common notion is that Chinese
           were looking for "barbarians" to pay tribute to the Ming empire.
           AFAIK, Chinese were never interested in "barbarians."  They only
           interested in foreign nations has decent degree of civilization.
           This is one of the reason why Chinese were never interested in
           Austrilia eventhough they are well aware of its existence since
           the Song dynasty (12-13th century AD).
           \_ More to the point, they were only interested in either trade or
              plunder. Australia offered neither.
              \_ Nah, they were neither interested in trade nor in plunder.
                 \_ Yeah, they were interested in both trade and plunder.
                    \_ Ahhh, but what about ASS-plunder? --!aspo
2006/1/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41332 Activity:nil 85%like:41328
1/10    China to sell $, buy Euro and Yen:
        http://tinyurl.com/8tt7a        tiny URLed
        \_ This would be good for American workers, but may not be so good for
           people planning to buy a home.
        \_ Good.  We're entirely too comfortable with China.
                \_ And too comfortable with dollars actually buying something
           \_ It's more like you are too comfortable with deficit spending.
2006/1/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41328 Activity:high 85%like:41332
1/10    China to sell $, buy Euro and Yen:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/09/AR2006010901042_pf.html
        \_ This would be good for American workers, but may not be so good for
           people planning to buy a home.
        \_ Good.  We're entirely too comfortable with China.
                \_ And too comfortable with dollars actually buying something
2006/1/6-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41263 Activity:nil
1/6     Last 'Gang of Four' member dies
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4586896.stm
        \_ I don't understand: didn't the group that this group represented
           effectively "win"?  Why was he still in prison until recently?
           --historyless
           \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_four
              \_ ah hah.  thanks!  should have RTFWP.
        \_ That's too bad, they were a pretty good punk band in the 80s.
           How did they all die so young?
        \_ I knew Vlissides was dead, but I thought Gamma, Helm, and Johnson
           were all very much alive.
        \_ Good fucking riddance.  May he enjoy doing snap rolls in his
           murderous commie hell.  -John
        \_ China really should designate end of cultural revolution as a
           national holiday.
2006/1/6-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41262 Activity:nil
1/6     Microsoft Shuts Down Chinese Blog
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060106/ap_on_hi_te/china_blog_shutdown
        Commie Gates.
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41082 Activity:nil
12/19   http://www.chung-hoon.navy.mil
        USS Chung-Hoon: US destroyer named after Chinese-American Rear
        Admiral.
        \_ Is "Imua e na Koa Kai" Chinese?  It sounds like Japanes to me.
           \_ It sounds hawaiian, actually.
2005/12/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:41081 Activity:high
12/19   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_go_co/congress_high_tech_visas
        Bye bye high-tech VISA, HELLLLLLOOOO outsourcing! Hello CS majors
        who are still in school, it's not too late to change your major.
        If you already graduated, it's not too late to go into other
        useful things, like real-estate. Fuck CS. Fuck tech.
        \_ Let me ask you this question. Do you have problem with GM workers
           with a high school degree making $60-80k a year with full benefit?
           You commands a higher wage than China and India, you need to think
           about what makes you worth your pay.  If you can't compete, then
           find something else to do and stop blaming everyone.
        \_ Um. High-tech VISAs are a form of outsourcing.
           \_ My preference would be to allow more visas especially for US
              educated foreign students, but to slow down or
              educated foreign students, but at the same time, to slow down or
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This will
              attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical mass of
              talented workers here, and also force companies to invest in
              their US based workers.  US  companies should be given incentive
              not to outsource but to adapt and move up the technology food
              chain, especially in critical industries.  Outsourcing means
              companies do well in the short term while US workers lose their
              jobs.  In the long term, however, it means transfer and loss of
              critical technology to countries like China and India.
              Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly have short term views.
              China, OTOH, plan for the long term, and almost always request
              technology and knowledge transfer before agreeing to a business
              partnership with foreign companies.            -!op
              partnership with foreign companies.  The way it's going, US
              will have fewer and fewer engineers and even scientists, while
              the outsource recipient countries will have more and more, and
              they will be doing more and more interesting work, while there
              will be less and less interest for students in the US, be they
              American or foreign students, to do science and engineering, and
              less incentive for those who did, to stay here.          -!op
              stop "real" outsourcing - the moving of jobs overseas.  This
              will attract the best talents from abroad, maintain critical
              mass of talented workers here, and also force companies to
              invest in their US based workers.  US companies should be
              given incentive not to outsource but to adapt and move up the
              technology food chain, especially in critical industries.
              Outsourcing means companies do well in the short term while US
              workers lose their jobs.  In the long term, however, it means
              transfer and loss of critical technology to countries like
              China and India. Unfortunately, US business leaders mostly
              have short term views. China, OTOH, plan for the long term,
              and almost always request technology and knowledge transfer
              before agreeing to a business partnership with foreign
              companies.  The way it's going, US will have fewer and fewer
              engineers and even scientists, while the outsource recipient
              countries will have more and more, and they will be doing more
              and more interesting work, while there will be less and less
              interest for students in the US, be they American or foreign
              students, to do science and engineering, and less incentive
              for those who did, to stay here.  -!op
              \- it may not be a matter of short term views but elite interest
                 diverging from rank and file interest.
                 \_ Are you seriously going to claim that it's in the longterm
                    best interest of owners of American companies to have
                    America lose its competitive edge in science and
                    engineering?  That's ridiculous.  I would argue that
                    American science is so good for the world that anything
                    that hurts American science hurts the whole world at all
                    economic levels.  This is not a zero sum game.
                    \- i'm not suggesting it is 0 sum. i simply think
                       if you have say $10m today, you are not especially
                       affected by say the dollar weakening, poor public
                       schools, pensions failing, social security
                       having problems etc. i.e. people who "get their own"
                       early, can route around a lot of problems in the
                       future. rather than thinking only temporally, you might
                       consider thing "spatially" ... meaning you stand where
                       you sit. more formally some of the incentive problems
                       are those that come from principal-agent issues.
                       i think part of the issue is corporate governance
                       not just globalization. globalization in mfgring has
                       been going on for decades. i also think factors like
                       amaerica's 0 agg private saving rate are going to
                       play a role in shaping the future as well as
                       "globalization".
                       \- oh and i think your discussion has some status quo
                          biases. like when you say "american science declining
                          hurts everybody". well you are a poor person
                          exposed to say cholera and malaria and poor
                          nutrition and no clean water supply, advances in
                          ass-related plastic surgery or botox or the
                          erectile dysfunction treatment meds arent
                          your priorities. yes i relalize a lot of important
                          research behind the Green Revolution or techniques
                          for purifying water with UV and such have come out of
                          the US, but it's also true relatively frivolous stuff
                          is often vastly better rewarded than stuff that kills
                          poor people. again compare the spending on ED drugs
                          [i think there were something like a dozen in the
                          pipeline [npi] in the last couple of decades, but
                          almost no work on common orphan diseases. much of
                          the economic logic behind free trade and free
                          movement of the factors of production and capital
                          also apply to free movement of labor, but nobody
                          is seriously proposing something like that to max
                          overall efficiency. if anything the recent EU
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US pushing IP
                          negotiations over the CAP and the US pushing IP
                          issues in the WTO negotiations show how far
                          people will go to protect their parochial interest
                          and ignore all the ideology when it doesnt go
                          their way. just out of curiosity, do you drive
                          and american [sic] car? do you have an american
                          TV ... oh never mind ... an american stereo?
                          TV ... oh never mind ... and american stereo?
                          where are your shoes made? do you support
                          negotiations over the CAP/refund and the US
                          pushing IP issues in the WTO negotiations show how
                          far people will go to protect their parochial
                          interest and ignore all the ideology when it
                          doesnt go their way. just out of curiosity, do you
                          drive and american [sic] car? do you have an
                          american TV ... oh never mind ... an american
                          stereo?  where are your shoes made? do you support
                          sever penalites for those employing illegal
                          aliens, or should we just keep deporting the
                          persons themselves?
              \_ Who says that science and technology will decline in the US?
                 Why wouldn't they increase as Americans spend more effort on
                 research and diving into more technically challenging roles
                 to become more competitive than an outsourced counterpart?
                 to become more competitve than an outsourced counterpart?
                 \_ Because the competitive advantage from the discoveries
                    you have made, that is the fruits of your labour, will
                    be knowledge transferred to your counterpart in China
                    and India, and they are 10x cheaper than you, and just
                    as smart as you.  With globalization, there is now no
                    incentive for companies to build up a technology gap
                    between US and foreign countries, there is no longer
                    much incentive to invest in technology development in
                    between US and foreign countries, there is less and
                    less incentive to invest in technology development in
                    the US.  Also, China and India are constantly
                    encouraging US companies to invest in R&D over there
                    with all kinds of tax incentives and business partner-
                    with all kinds of tax breaks and business partner-
                    ship lures.  Is this bad for the world?  I don't know.
                    What I do know, is that it's good for China and India,
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research and
                    that is "technical challenging" is not hard to
                    but bad for the US.  Anything to do with research or
                    that is "technically challenging" is not hard to
                    outsource.  All you need is top local talent, of which
                    India and China has plenty, a technology transfer so
                    they get up to speed, which US companies are happy to do,
                    and lots of money for the research facilities, which
                    US companies are happy to invest.
                    \_ Says who?  All evidence I've seen so far shows that
                       outsourced work, while cheaper, is significantly
                       inferior too.  Outsourced code sucks.  Speedy
                       communication still remains an issue.  If you're good
                       at what you do, then I maintain that you're not
                       expendible and your job won't be shipped overseas.  If
                       that isn't the case, then it's time for you to improve
                       your skills and make yourself more marketable.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one choose
           other than business administration or engineering in order to have
           the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily available as
           in CS.
                       \_ I am in 3G wireless infrastructure, and my
                          employer is systematically moving the whole
                          division to China.  It doesn't matter if I am
                          good or bad.  Even if I am good, I would be
                          good or bad.  Either way, I would be
                          forced to either move to a different field,
                          move to a different part of the country, stay
                          move to a different part of the country, or stay
                          on and do peripheral type work.
                          As for foreign coders, it is the same as over
                          here, some are idiots, some are good, but
                          they are improving fast.  And of course,
                          3G wireless has lots of military applications,
                          pretty kool for China.
                          pretty kool for China to have a large pool of
                          engineers with experience in this area.
        \_ Even with outsourcing, I'd like to know which major should one
           choose other than business administration or engineering in order
           to have the jobs with comparable salaries that are as readily
           available as in CS.
           \_ Anything that gets you into law school or medical school.
              \- self-regulating indistries are in better positions to
                 protect themselves. there was a large influx of indian and
                 russian doctors in the 70s i believe and i assume the AMA
                 either ahead of time or in response took steps to keep them
                 from competing. typically they do so by insisiting on
                 certifications [we are here to protect you] and then defining
                 the area of practice very broadly. see e.g. the nolo v texas
                 case. my understanding is dental hyginists must work for a
                 dentist and cannot operate a $19.95 only-teeth-cleaning
                 service. i believe there are regulations on opticians as
                 well. civil engineers, ME, software engineers either missed
                 the boat or were never in a position to similarly dictate
                 competition terms.
              \_ Actually, engineering is probably a good choice if you want
                 to go to law school. IP lawyers (patent and copyright) are
                 generally paid more and have better working conditions that
                 the pol sci majors.
              \_ I can feel nothing but pity for people chosing majors
                 based ONLY on how much they're gonna make. It's gonna take 5
                 to 10 possibly best years of your life spent on learning
                 something that you're not passionate about before he/she can
                 even start earning money. Of course, most of them are probably
                 too dumb to make it into and through the medical or law school
                 or a rigorous CS program like at UCB anyways but I pity both
                 kinds.
                 \_ Law school doesn't require being smart.
        \_ Just learn to say "would you like fries with that?" like all th
           PolySci/English majors have been doing for decades.
           \_ Actually, I say "Have you rtfm?" these days. -English major
2005/12/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:41069 Activity:moderate
12/18   Dear Chinese people. In what context do you consider yourselves
        to be Han-ren, Tan-ren, Manchu, Hwa-ren, and finally Zho-Quo-ren?
        \_ Huh?  I consider myself an American.
           \_ You're most likely an ignorant, apathetic, and
              pathetic ABC banana. And no, I'm not a FOB, thank you.
              \_ bad troll.
              \_ I prefer the term Twinkie.
              \_ If you don't even consider yourself an American, then how
                 can you expect other people to treat you like one?
                 \_ Exactly!  I've been wanting to say this to my uncles and
                    aunts and in-laws.  But I dare not since they are senior
                    to me.  BTW I am a 16-yr FOB and I'm not a citizen yet.
                    \_ OTOH, please don't mis-characterize all first
                       generation immigrants to be like your uncles and aunts.
        \_ Most people consider themselves Han, eventhough a lot of them are
           not aware of their minority ancestory.  Certain Last names are
           popular with minorities and thus, if you have that last name, there
           is a good chance that somewhere in history you were once a minority.
           Example: Jin, Bao,  Mu (Mu Rong), Ma (Mohammad).  Due to 2000
           years of mixing, the notion of being a pure Han has become a very
           silly idea.  That is why we have the term "Zhong Guo Ren."
           In Taiwan, pro-independent minded people demonized the word
           "Zhong Guo."  They want to replace it with "Hua," which is even
           more silly because even though the Han culture originalted from
           the tribe of Hua 3000-4000 years ago, Han has constitute a lot of
           minor tribes other than "Hua."
           So, in a way, being a Chinese has more to do with the Han-dominated
           culture than what runs in your blood.  This notio of "define race by
           culture than color of skin" only start to surface in the Western
           world sometime toward the end of 20th century.
        \_ i guess no one would think about this kind of stuff unless
           he or she is a purist.  as in hk, i think 99% would tell you
           they are hongkonger or chinese.
        \_ The young Chinese pianist Lang Lang is a Manchu.  In fact he's a
           distant descendant of the royal family of the Qin Dynasty.
           \_ so is the actress/singer wang2 fei1.  I have a acquaintance
              whose last name is wan2 yan2, and falls under the yellow
              banner of the eight manchu banners.
              \_ ohh my gosh, minority exists... so what?
                 \_ it's often kool to be minority these days.
2005/12/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40949 Activity:nil
12/9    "20 Reported Killed as Chinese Unrest Escalates"
        http://csua.org/u/e90 [nyt]
        \_ This is apparently just outside Shanwei:
           http://csua.org/u/e92
           Not too far away from Hong Kong.
        \_ My favorite part is "there were 74,000 riots or other significant
           public disturbances in 2004".  Wow.
        \_ Only 20?  In a country of 1.6(?) billion....
2005/12/8-11 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40925 Activity:nil
12/8    Anyone who flew international recently. Did the check-in luggage limit
        got decreased from 70 pound to 50 pound? I'll be flying to China soon.
        \_ Great. Encourage more people to carry on luggage that they should
           be checking in.
        \_ Found it, it is 50 pounds now. Damn.
        \_ I want a passenger + luggage < 250 lbs limit NOW
           \_ I've been asked my weight when buying plane tickets before.  No,
              I'm not a fatass, but in single engine planes every pound
              matters.
                \_ This is for fuel calculation though.  -John
           \- when did it change? i checked +65lbs last week of Nov.
              although i heard something about this the ticket i looked
              at had the old weight limits.
           \_ Why?
              \_ So I get more luggage allowance.  It doesn't matter if the
                 airplane is burning fuel to move fat or luggage.  Make the
                 400 pounders pay up instead of penalizing the rest of us.
                 \_ Yeah, I just can't wait for all those 110 pound women to
                    start bringing an extra 70 pounds of shit on the plane
                    to make up the difference with us 180 pound guys.
           \_ To hell with you. I'm 7' tall and 250lbs, and I'm still under-
              weight. Eat a sandwich and get over it. --erikred
        \_ I travel very frequently, and it's always been 32kg due to US
           labor laws.  I hope you live in the big ciy in China, though,
           because domestic flight within China has maximum weight of
           something like 20 or 25kg per lugguage, *ONE* lugguage per person.
           So, if you intent to transfer, don't bring too much stuff!
2005/12/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:40873 Activity:kinda low
12/6    I am going to Taiwan in January.  Haven't been there in a very long
        time.  I need to bring some gifts, but can't think of much that's
        either uniquely available here or significantly cheaper here.  I
        need to buy gifts for kids, cousins in their 20s, and also lots of
        aunts and uncles.  What do people bring when they go back to
        Asia?  Ideas and suggestions?  Please help!
        \_ Bring back nice traditional wife from rural China since most
           Taiwanese women have Westernized and modernized, meaning they
           don't cook, they don't clean, and they bitch all day.
           \_ You mean Taiwanese women are more like Hong Kong women now?
        \_ 2 months ago my sister had to bring back 150 bottles of Centrum
           Silver we bought from Costco. I really don't understand it.
        \_ Centrum vitamins.  At least my parents did 20 years ago... -oj
           \_ Hmm, my mom still does that.
        \_ Beef jerky or dried mangoes from Costco.
           \_ Also pistachios from Costco.  My dad buys a lot of this from
              Costco to bring back to Hong Kong when he visits me.
        \_ We've brought viatamins and beef jerky back to Korea.  Probably
           the most popular thing for us has been honey.  It's very
           expensive in Korea, and my father-in-law loves it.  They also
           liked Macadamia nuts.  I don't know about Taiwan, but Koreans
           don't like overly sweet candy, so even chocolate covered rasins
           didn't go over well. American alcohol can be good too, but
           check the customs regulations. -jrleek
        \_ American ginseng from Wisconsin.  In Chinese medicine and culinary,
           American ginseng serves different purpose than the ginseng from
           American ginseng serves different purpose from the ginseng from
           Korea and north China.  -- yuen
        \_ or some Polo / Calvin Kline shirts from Cosco.  I think it's more
           suitable for people in the 20s.      -live in TW.
2005/11/30-12/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40776 Activity:nil
11/30   I've been looking up Comcast and Adelphia to see if they play
        Chinese channels. However, the descriptions only show the names
        of the channel (KCSI, etc etc). How do I find out if they
        play Chinese stuff? Thanks.
        \_ It's a bit low tech, but you could use an audio transmission
           and reception device and actually 'talk' to another human
           being at one of the two companies.  Do you really want to deal
           with companies that support such a low tech method of primary
           communication with their customer base, though?
           \_ Cable phone operators might be less than savvy about the
              exact details of their foreign language program choices.
              \_ Are you the original poster?  If so, you clearly don't
                 deserve an answer to your question.
        \_ I once sent e-mail to Comcast asking about Jade channel (Ch262 in
           Fremont) and got a reply in a couple of days.
2005/11/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40740 Activity:high
11/27   Apex, Changhong, and the perils of doing business in China.  Good
        reading for those MOTDers so bullish about finding their fortune
        in China.  http://csua.org/u/e39 [nyt]
        \_ what is your point again?  those MOTDers who are so bullish about
           China are as foolish as those who think China is a economic /
           military threat.  This is one of the reason why I am so pissed
           at USA for their constant pressure on China's currency, textiles
           and the trade surplus.   Using texitile as an example, China may
           have 5 years of competitiveness on their texitile products, yet
           China was forced to bow to EU and American pressure to impose
           quota on their textile product due to the fact that neither EU
           nor America has bothered to phase out the texitile quota
           incrementally according to the agreement reached a decade ago.
                                - Just came back from mainland last week
           \_ Just a cautionary tale about how business deals can go very
              wrong in China.  Did you think China is a country governed
              by the rule of law?  I'm sure stuff like that happens in all
              the best corrupt totalitarian states.
              \_ I am sorry, if those who doesn't even have that degree
                 of common sense, then, he/she shouldn't do business in
                 China at first place.  It's a wild wild west out there,
                 and the real tragic part is that China is not the worse
                 country in terms of laws, corruptions, and goverance.
                 If you are trying to do business in the hyper-growth
                 area (e.g. Vietnam), you will have to play the local rules.
                 Just put things in perspective, some of stuff in USA
                 is pretty messed up too, just that you and I have gotten
                 used to it and accept it as law of the universe.
              \_ things are slowly improving, but at this stage, if you
                 are hoping to depend on the rule of law, you shouldn't
                 go.
                 \_ It's pretty hard to predict when you might suddenly
                    need to rely on the rule of law.
                    \_ rule 1: don't get into trouble with powerful
                       people, unless you have someone even more powerful
                       behind you.  instead learn how to identify and
                       build good relationships with these bad dudes.
                       This is unfortunately the price of doing business
                       in the prc.  why do you think rupert murdoch and
                       chris galvin spent so much time schmoozing with
                       chinese leaders?
                       \_ Apex guy lesson 1: Eventually you'll piss off
                          someone big enough to seriously fuck up your life.
                       \_ That Murdoch are Galvin are protected doesn't mean
                          schmucks on motd are.
                       \_ I'm not worried about Murdoch or Galvin.  I'm
                          worried about the average motd schmuck.
                          \_ The same rule applies, except at a lower
                             level.
                             \_ That worked real well for the Apex guy.
                                \_ didn't apex guy run afoul of rule 1, which
                                   is why he's in trouble?
                                   \_ Your rule 1 is useless, since expectations
                                      for your behavior may be unknown and may
                                      change over time.  Also, the perception
                                      of your behavior may be unknown and
                                      unknowable, and that perception may
                                      also change in unknown or unknowable
                                      ways.  One the other hand, a written
                                      set of rules agreed to by both sides
                                      and adjuged in an impartial (or at least
                                      predictable) way can stand the test of
                                      time and changes in persons and
                                      perception.
                                      \_ can we agree that china is a location
                                         where you cannot get rules "adjuged"
                                         in an impartial/predictable way which
                                         can stand the test of time and changes
                                         in persons and perception -- if the
                                         other player is allied with powerful
                                         people in china and you don't have an
                                         equivalent ally?
                                         (btw, you could have shortened your
                                         response to:  "rule 1 sux, get a
                                         real contract not a 3-page invoice!")
                                         \_ Is any of this worse than, say,
                                            Russia?  How many countries in
                                            the world have what someone used
                                            to doing business in the U.S. would
                                            call the "rule of law"?
                                            \_ i don't know if it's as bad in
                                               russia and to what degree it's
                                               the same/different.  that's
                                               another very long thread.
                                               but does "rule 1 is useless"
                                               guy agree that china is
                                               a location where [blah blah]?
                                            \_ The World Economic Forum gives
                                               China a corruption ranking of
                                               71, meaning there are 70
                                               countries less corrupt than
                                               China.
                                         \_ There is a difference between
                                            "rule 1 sux" and "rule 1 is
                                            impossible to meet over the long-
                                            term".  Rule 1 is impossible to
                                            meet over the long-term.
                                            \_ so what's your long-term
                                               solution ... a detailed,
                                               sensible contract or something
                                               like that?
                                               \_ The rule of law.  I think
                                                  that's where this discussion
                                                  started.
                                                  \_ and how does rule 1 figure
                                                     in locations where the
                                                     rule of law is relatively
                                                     weak?
                                                     \_ We're going in circles.
                                                        Do you think it is
                                                        possible to meet rule
                                                        1 over the long-term?
                                                        \_ first you answer
                                                           my question.
                                                           how does rule 1
                                                           figure in locations
                                                           where the rule of
                                                           law is relatively
                                                           weak?
                                                           (The answer to
                                                           this question is the
                                                           core reason why
                                                           rule 1 is relevant
                                                           in the first place.)
                                                           Let me answer it for
                                                           you:
                                                           Rule 1 applies where
                                                           the rule of law is
                                                           relatively weak.
                                                           Where the rule of
                                                           law is relatively
                                                           strong, the
                                                           relevance of rule 1
                                                           decreases.
                                               \_ now is when you make money,
                                                  not when the system matures.
                                                  as they say, "go west, young
                                                  man".
                                                  \_ Right.  Because no one
                                                     makes fortunes in the
                                                     U.S. anymore.
                                                     \_ you still do, but it's
                                                        harder.
                                                  \_ I imagine that's what the
                                                     Apex guy thought too.
                                               \_ why do you care about
                                                  long term.  take your money
                                                  and run.  that's how taiwanese
                                                  do business.  constantly change
                                                  and adapt.
                                                  \_ Ah.  I take it this means
                                                     you agree that Rule 1 is
                                                     impossible over the long-
                                                     term.  When is it long-
                                                     term?  Is it possible
                                                     to meet Rule 1 over the
                                                     medium term?  Is it ever
                                                     possible to win a game
                                                     where the rules are hidden
                                                     and invented on the fly for
                                                     the benefit of one side?
                                                     \_ I am not sure what you
                                                        are trying to say.  Can
                                                        a relationship lasts a
                                                        long time?  sure.  With
                                                        rule of law, you have
                                                        the law's protection.
                                                        With relationships, it
                                                        depends on how the
                                                        relationship holds.  It
                                                        could be all back
                                                        stabbing and self
                                                        interest.  It could be
                                                        one that lasts while it's
                                                        mutually beneficial, and
                                                        a happy parting when that
                                                        no longer holds, it could
                                                        be like you and your
                                                        best Harvard roommate
                                                        buddy with total trust,
                                                        etc.
                                                        \_ I read somewhere
                                                           that Hitler was
                                                           psychologically
                                                           incapable of hav-
                                                           ing a loving rel-
                                                           ationship!
        \_ china currently is like the wild west combined with 19th century
           capitalism.  an uncle of mine has spent a decade and a half
           there.  some of the things he had to do include:
           * after a plan to start a business school fell through, they had
             to sneak in at night to truck out all the computers and other
             invested equipment, which would otherwise not be returned to
             them.  people from the other side were literally chasing after
             them.  people from the other side were literally running after
             the trucks when they left.
           * because property rights laws were vague, land acquired where
             their factory was to be built was problematic when beijing
             their factory was to be built was problematic when it was
             decided that a lot of farmlands were improperly taken away
             from farmers.  To avoid inspections, they had to
             replant the land with a big rice padi field for a while to fool
             people, until the proper permits can be worked out.  Lots of
             ethical questions, but the factories did eventually provide jobs
             for hundreds of workers from poor inland provinces.
        \_ The New York Times is biased liberal trash.
           \_ except when they say Saddam has WMDs.  Go Dubya!
        \_ I wonder who's going to import those TVs now?
2005/11/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40589 Activity:moderate
11/14   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051113/ap_on_re_us/asians_bullied
        Asian harassment up in other parts of the country. Time to move
        back to my motherland, the Bay Area, the land created by our
        people, for our people.                                 -Asian
        \_ Funny, I experienced exactly the reverse in SF, until I got in
           a fight with the Korean bullies at my school--then they were nice
           to me.  Maybe AZN bullies are just more pragmatic.  -John
           \_ pragmatic you mean this Korean knows the chance of him
              relocated to ghetto or something?
              \_ Is "relocated to ghetto" some sort of "in" slang for "getting
                 your ass kicked"?  If so, yes.  -John
        \_ Last week there was a news article about the same problem in Skyline
           High in Oakland.
        \_ Here's a way to solve the problem: Let the Asian community randomly
           select a certain percentage of kids among themselves.  Force them to
           score low in tests and exams (by otherwise starving them, for
           example.)  Make them go loitering instead of learning.  Drop them
           example.)  Make them to go loitering instead of learning.  Drop them
           off at parties and lock them out of public libraries.  Buy them
           video games instead of violins.  Teach them street fighting instead
           of studying.  This will bring down the average achievement of the
           community and will remove it from the bad guys' radar.
           example.)  Make them to go loitering instead of learning.  Spend
           time at parties instead of public libraries.  Buy them video games
           instead of violins.  Teach them street fighting instead of studying.
           That will bring down the average achievement of the community and
           will remove it from the bad guys' radar.

           Another way to solve the problem is for the other communities to do
           the opposite.
           \_ Nah, too complicated.  Let's just create 2 sets of standards:
              1 for Asians and 1 for non-Asians.  Then you can just adjust
              the 2 standards to get whatever result you want.
              the 2 standards to get whatever result you want.  You probably
              want to tweak the definition of "Asian" so that some populations
              with roots in Asia are included and some are not.
2005/11/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40535 Activity:moderate
11/10   Top state Dem in FL proposes mandatory Spanish in K-2 in FL schools:
        http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=4859
        My favorite quote: "I've heard it the other way that English was the
        language here and that's the way it's going to be. On the other hand,
        there **is** [emphasis mine] a lot of Spanish people here. No, it
        doesn't surprise me. I just don't like it," said parent Ed Barrick.
        Looks like they need more English teaching first.
        \_ Spanish or Latino?
        \_ Yeah, let them all learn Spanish, so that those of us who speak
           Asian languages will be in higher demand and can ask for higher
           salaries.
           \_ When everyone in the US speaks Spanish you will be at a
              *disadvantage* when you cannot.
              \_ Yeah, if you want to work at Walmart.
                 \_ You will when Walmart is the only industry left in the
                    US! (Which will be about the same time when everyone
                    in the US speaks Spanish)
                    \_ Uh....right, but that brings us two levels back up to
                       the thread to where us Mandarin speakers will still
                       be employed.  Of course, I don't seriously believe any
                       of that anyway.  Spanish will never replace English
                       anywhere that matters to tech people.
                       \_ Wow, I don't think I could've telegraphed that
                          sarcasm anymore clearly. -pp
                       \_ How can you possibly perceive Mandarin to ever
                          be more important to US business than Spanish?
                          Even with all the trade with China, Spanish is
                          the more useful language in the USA.
                          \_ Uhhh... He never said that it would be more
                             important, just that rarity confers value.
                             \_ Yes, I am sure your tech company is
                                willing to pay so much more for you if you
                                can speak some rarely used language like
                                Inukitut. Rarity doesn't confer value as much
                                as demand does in this instance.
                                \_ You are correct.  That's supply and
                                   demand.  Sorry I didn't state it more
                                   clearly.
                             \_ There are, what, a billion people who speak
                                Mandarin natively?  In the end, jobs that will
                                stay in the US will require good English
                                communication skills.  It's much easier to
                                find someone who speaks Mandarin well than
                                someone who speaks English well.
                                \_ I had thought this conversation was a
                                   dumb as it could possibly get, but you
                                   have brought it to a new low.
                                   Congratulations.
                                   \_ I'm guessing you don't work in the
                                      industry.  This article reflects
                                      reality quite well.
                                      http://www.slate.com/id/2126685
                                      When we were hiring a FAE in China, we
                                      hired one that could speak English best.
                                      The marketing guy the FAE reported to
                                      (who owned the Huawei account) is a
                                      mid-30's white guy who couldn't speak a
                                      word of Chinese.  When we hired him,
                                      we were looking for a guy who could help
                                      us formulate and communicate a strategy;
                                      Chinese was not even on the list of
                                      requirements.
                                      \_ you gotta becareful with your
                                         decision.  FAE requires to talk to
                                         engineers, and engineers in general
                                         don't have good foreign language
                                         skill.  Be able to speak Chinese
                                         is much more advantageous.  But such
                                         advantage won't be seen by those who
                                         don't interact with customers at
                                         their native language level.
                                            -system engineer work in ASIA
                                         \_ Right.  Whhat I meant was we chose
                                            the Mandarin speaker who could speak
                                            English best.  For us, Chinese is a
                                            requirement for firstline in-
                                            country types, but it is at best
                                            a low nice-to-have for higher-
                                            level jobs.
                                      \_ And so you continue to make an
                                         irrelevent point.
                                         \_ No, the point is that Chinese gets
                                            you jobs in China.  English gets
                                            you jobs here.  This will be even
                                            more true in the future, if you
                                            assume that globalization is
                                            efficient.
                                            \_ And speaking both well will
                                               get you jobs in both.
                                               Which was the orginal point.
                                               \_ And my point is that it's
                                                  much more important to speak
                                                  English well, if one is
                                                  interested in employment
                                                  in the States.  I've
                                                  observed that the vast
                                                  majority of the Mandarine
                                                  types here don't speak English
                                                  well at all.  There is a vast
                                                  difference between being able
                                                  to communicate in a language
                                                  and being able to communicate
                                                  well in a language.
                                                 _\
                        I don't know about tech, but I know many BA/
                        MBA friends getting sourcing/purchasing type jobs
                        where Chinese either helps or is essential.  One
                        just got sent to Beijing with a really nice
                        package including a US$5000 per month housing
                        allowance to setup operations there (John Deere).
                        My gf also does sourcing for her
                        small US employer, and she says she has already
                        saved her employer $500k per year after working
                        for a few months on switching to China sources.
                        As for tech, I am not sure if it would always
                        be doing management here, and tech stuff there.
                        I think China is only just getting started.
                        Knowing English and Mandarin well is a good
                        advantage.  The fact that most Chinese here and
                        in China don't speak English well just means it's
                        even more valuable that one speaks English well,
                        AND knows Chinese.
                        \_ My guess is that marketing and mid+ management will
                           stay here, first level management and individual
                           contributors will ultimately all get outsourced.
                           Definition will stay in the States, design and
                           manufacturing abroad.  All of which says you'd
                           better be able to communicate well if you want to
                           prosper here.  Chinese may get you a job, but
                           prosper job here.  Chinese may get you a job, but
                           English gets you ahead.  In the end, knowing
                           Chinese may be no more useful than knowing C for
                           someone in tech.  How many mid or senior management
                           types actually know C or think it matters?  How
                           types actually know C or thinks it matters?  How
                           many marketing types?  Now consider what that means
                           when coding and first-level management is outsourced
                           to China.
                           \_ Marketing depends on where the market is.
                              For instance, cell phones, the China market
                              is huge, and I doubt you will know how
                              to market there if you don't know Chinese.
                              As for management, as China develops from
                              a manufacturing base to a more mature
                              economy with big demands for imports, the
                              number of good jobs requiring Chinese will
                              continue to grow.  Sure, if you are the
                              stay home type and want to remain in the US,
                              and get ahead, you need to be good at English.
                              Nobody is arguing about that.  But even
                              if staying here, knowing Chinese is an
                              added advantage, that will likely become
                              more and more valuable going forward, again,
                              in terms of the number of jobs where Chinese
                              helps or is a requirement.
                              \_ The problem is we are finite beings.  There is
                                 a limit to how much we can know and how much
                                 time we have to learn.  Knowing Chinese is
                                 valuable.  So is knowing Spanish, or French,
                                 or Swahili.  Some things are more useful than
                                 others.  Given you cannot learn everything,
                                 you have to decide what to learn.  So learn
                                 Chinese?  Sure.  So long as you make sure
                                 you know English well first.  Now, how many
                                 of you chest-thumping Chinese speakers speak
                                 English well?
                                 \_ Learning a new language from scratch is
                                    tough.  On the other hand if you
                                    already speak English and Chinese well,
                                    you should gloat over your superior
                                    you should gloat about your superior
                                    language abilities, and rub it in on
                                    people who seem bitter about it.
        \_ Uh, you do realize there are regional differences in
           vocabulary and grammar in English (as well as most languages).
        \_ I'm a bit disappointed that nobody here seems to have even thought
           of the positive implications of teaching the kids _any_ foreign
           language (Spanish, Chinese, who gives) just to get them used to the
           idea of learning something unfamiliar and getting them to think
           a bit more internationally.  The Chinese and Indian kids coming to
           the US speaking English, and the European students who've been
           learning English/German/French/Spanish/whatever, some of them from
           grade 1 (however badly they speak it is another issue) should tell
           you something.  -John
           \_ In general Americans, esp. the isolated, non-coastal Red states
              don't really give a damn about thinking internationally. At any
              rate they (freepers) should learn their own language first.
           \_ International thinking is fine and all but frankly most of them
              will never set foot outside the country or ever have a need for
              a second language.  I'd prefer they learn to read/write English.
              Hey, maybe knowing some basic math without a calculator would
              be nice, too.
        \_ I have a feeling that USA is going to become to what happened to
           Roman Empire in the good old days, where the official language
           (Latin) is different than what is more commonly spoken through
           out the empire (Ancient Greek).
           \_ The US doesn't have an official language.
           \- Ave. some comments: 1. the greek of homer != the greek of
              polybius or the biblical writers. the Koine greek was sort of a
              lower vernacular or sloppy greek. i believe "ancient greek"
              usually refers to an older version of the language 2. latin and
              the koine were the second languages for a lot of people distant
              from rome or athens. 3. the koine while somewhat common to the
              east, a legacy of alexander...and indeed would later be adopted
              by the eastern roman empire,was not common in the western
              empire, where latin would be used more than the koine (and of
              course the church of rome in the west would go with their own
              brand of latin). FYI, probably the top scholar on the
              flavor of latin). FYI, probably the top scholar on the
              relationship between Rome and the Hellenic/Hellenistic world(s?)
              is E GRUEN/UCB History. you may wish to see say Chapeter V
              http://csua.org/u/dzh and Chapter 2,7 in http://csua.org/u/dzi
              Graecia capta ferum victorem capit. --Horace. ok vale.
2005/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:40471 Activity:nil
11/7    The Three Kingdoms comic.  Stupid in-jokes about the Romance of
        the Three Kingdoms.  In English, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and,
        what is that, Cambodian?
        http://www.shiji.cc/san/index.php?mode=main
        \_Close to Khmer...it's Thai. -scottyg
2005/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Industry/Jobs] UID:40464 Activity:nil
11/6    1590: http://files.deviantart.com/f/2004/188/8/7/gridgame.swf
        \_ 2016    -mice
        \_ is there any actual skill component to this?
           \_ um, well if you are really patient (bored) you can line
              them up beforehand in chain reactive patterns. that said,
              I'm still just 1037
              \_ ok, now 2193. - pp
                 \_ If I see any scores being posted on Monday, that will
                    be indicative of how much work you have at your job.
                    \- 3574, but i outsourced to a CHINESE VILLAGE
                       \_ hope you got a screenshot or those poor little
                          guys worked for nothing
        \_ There are bugs in this.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Stripclub] UID:40357 Activity:kinda low
10/31   Naked women on the streets of Hong Kong in PETA protest:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051031/od_afp/environmenthalloween_051031171302
        \_ KFC ain't going to torture this chick:
           http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051014/ids_photos_ts/r1925397729.jpg
        \_ I'm sure Hooters is just as bad to its chicks.
           \_ Hooters serves fried chicken menu also?
              \_ http://www.hooters.com/menu/Hooters_Online_Menu.pdf
                 \_ No prices?
        \_ where are the pictures of naked PETA girls?
           \_ People Eating Tasty Animals.
           \_ The caption said the two lying in the fake coffins were naked.
        \_ url?
2005/10/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40241 Activity:kinda low
10/24   I'm reading The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and I have a
        question about Chinese Names.  For example, Liu Bei.  Liu is
        his family name, Bei is his given name, and he seems to have a
        third name, Xuande.  What's this third name?  The translation
        refers to it as a "style."   What does that mean?
        \_ It is typical for Chinese to have at least two "First names."
           in the past.  What we call "first name" is roughly equivalent of
           "birth name," the name that goes to the family tree, and in the
           imperial time, not very polite to be called upon unless you
           are a very close friend or a member of family.   One tend to use
           "school name" or "zi" as the name to be used commonly.  In this
           case, "Liu" is the last name, "Bei" is the birth name, and
           "XuanDe" is the "school name" which everyone call him upon.
           It is not uncommon for well-established Chinese to have a 3rd
           "first name" or "hao" roughly translated as "as known as."
           So, in short, Chinese tend to have three first names.  I am from
           a very traditional family, and we managed to keep most of that
           tradition even today.        kngharv, the guy who has two
                                        first names as well.

        \_ It just means he's friggin' sweet.
        \_ Liu not Lui unless you are still using some non-PRC standard
           romanization.
           \_ No, just a typo.  Fixed.
        \_ How did you find the book?  Did you like Liu Bei, or thinks
           he's a weenie?  How about Cao Cao, the evil but cool dude?
           \_ I haven't gotten all the way though it yet, I just read
              about Liu Bei crossing the Tan.  (I'm pretty busy these
              days)  So far it's been really good.  I don't think I can
              really pass judgement on either of them yet.  Liu Bei is
              possibly a little over restrained sometimes though.
        \_ I'm surprised no one has mentioned the video game yet.
           \_ I recognized the name from "Destiny of an Emperor" an old
              NES RPG.
           \_ There must be at least a dozen games based on the story.
              Which one are you thinking of?
              \_ The one called "Romance of the Three Kingdoms".
                 \_ There were several PC versions with the same name, and
                    now there are few versions of PS2 as well.
           \_ The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is huge in Japan as well; I
              used to get drunk at an izakaya called SanGokushi (Three
              Kingdoms). --erikred
        \_ The third name is used among friends, sort of similar to the use
           of tutoyer in French.
           \_ Ok, this seems to jibe with the other stuff I've heard.  As
              I now understand it, everyone is given a formal and an
              informal name at birth.  In this case, Bei is his formal
              name, and Xuande is his informal name.  Ok, does anyone know
              why the translator chose to call the informal name the
              "style?"
              \_ Because the translator's Chinese-fu is weak?
              \_ wikipedia is your friend.  "Chinese style name":
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_name
              \_ wikipedia is your friend:
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_style_name
2005/10/12-13 [Recreation/Food, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40054 Activity:low
10/12   4,500 year old noodle to go please!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20051012/sc_space/worldsoldestnoodlesalterviewofancientdiet
        \_ Man, Chinese food can survive 5000 years?  This explains
           something about my indigestion problems.
        \_ Just more proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's greatness
2005/10/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:39994 Activity:nil
10/6    I think Chinese should celebrate today:  end of Cultural Revolution
        in 1976
        \_ Celebrate Double Tenth Revolution in four days.  End of Imperial
           China in 1911.
        \_ Double Tenth Revolution in 1911 in four days.  End of Imperial
           China.
2005/9/28-10/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:39912 Activity:nil
9/28    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050928/od_nm/australia_births_dc
        Be patriotic, produce more kids!
        \_ Singapore has had similar policy for over a decade.  Recently Hong
           Kong followed too.
           \_ I once met a fellow in Siena who was paid by the Singapore
              government to go on vacation so he can meet women and reproduce.
              He's a dual-PhD director of some Singaporean museum and the
              government really wants him to pass on his genes.  He's also
              flaming gay, but supposedly the Singaporean reproduction
              program doesn't recognize homosexuality officially.
        \_ Taiwan also has this policy.  But get this.  The policy of
           encouraging more kids does *NOT* apply to
           1. non-Hans, which includes:
              a. Taiwan abroigine
              b. mail-order brides that is Vietnam/Indonesia/Philipine orgin
           2. Han Chinese that came from mainland China.
           Cool, huh?
           \_ Singapore encourages good genes by giving tax incentives.
              How about Taiwan? There's a difference between what the culture/
              media promote, and what the government actually advocates.
           \_ Gee.  Then this is one thing that Commie China is better.  Just
              the opposite, the one-child policy in Commie China does not apply
              to minorities.
           \_ There are Hans that didn't come from Mainland China?
              \_ you pointed out a very interesting point.  Those Hans who
                 came to Taiwan prior to Japanese occupation considered
                 themselves the true owner of Taiwan island (while
                 performing genecide toward the abroigine).  They tend
                 to be hostile to Hans who came to Taiwan after
                 Japanese occupation.
              \_ Where did Chewie come from? Or is it Chuy?
                 \_ Kashyyyk
        \_ World pop would be something like 15 trillion in 200 years if
           today's growth rate continues -- it's going to have slow down
           today's growth rate continues -- it's going to have to slow down
           some day.  Now, are the problems with a graying population easier
           to cope with if you have a large population or a small population?
           \_ that's why we need to terraform the moon and mars.
           \_ take a trip to China and step out the city.  My conclusion from
              it is that population will be limited by available fresh water.
              and deep down, I suspect there will be a plague/pandemic that
              will make Spanish Flue of 1919 looks like a child play.
              \_ But the problem with a plague at this age is that, with
                 today's travelling, a plague will probaby spread around the
                 world easily.
                 \_ yup. the result of pandemic would mean mass reduction
                    in population world wide, not confined in given region.
2005/9/19-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:39759 Activity:moderate
9/19    Oh look, North Korea is saying they won't be disarming until they get a
        light water reactor
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1487719/posts
        \_ obviously the got the idea from the motd...
           \_ The U.S. better get moving with a robust NPT prohibiting uranium
              enrichment, plutonium creation, and a catch-all clause
              prohibiting technology which can lead very quickly to a bomb.
              The excuse I read 6-12 months ago with not doing a real NPT was
              "it would take too long".
              The U.S. has the answer, but just needs to follow through.
              \_ Yes, clearly the problem with Iran and North Korea is that
                 the language in the non-proliferation treaty isn't complete
                 enough.
        \_ dude, this latest agreement is not about N.Korea and its nukes,
           it's about dubya get some headline with a positive spin.
        \_ Interestingly this is the FIRST freerep. link that I have found
           useful.  I agree with many of the comments that basically state
           "the north koreans will just use material in the reactors to
           build more weapons and get another concession from the US."
                -mrauser
           \_ You need thousands of centrifuges to weaponize the enriched
              uranium fuel used for light water reactors into a single bomb.
              And, the enriched uranium would be fed to North Korea peacemeal,
              given more as it used up more in the reactor.
              On the other hand, North Korea already has enough plutonium for
              eight bombs:  As many as two bombs while they were playing with
              their graphite reactors in three separate incidents '89-'91,
              and six more since inspectors were kicked out in '02-now since
              six bombs:  As many as two bombs while they were playing with
              their graphite reactor in three separate incidents in '89-'91,
              their graphite reactors in three separate incidents '89-'91,
              and four more since inspectors were kicked out in '02-now since
              Dubya didn't want to finish building the light water reactors
              Bubba promised back in '94 that would be done by '03 -- because
              Kim Jong-il had confessed to a secret nuke program earlier in '02
              (violating NPT) and Dubya didn't know what else to do.
              \_ And this way they get FREE REACTOR.  Do you believe that the
                 moment they unpack their shiny new peaceful toy, they're going
                 to spontaneously erupt into bursts of nuclear-abhorring song
                 and dance?  (No, I can't see the Chinese doing anything but
                 pressuring the US into giving the reactor _before_ NK does
                 anything in return.)  Bombs or not, they're a bunch of evil
                 little pests.  -John
           \_ You need thousands of centrifuges to enrich enough uranium
              from light water reactors for a single bomb.
              That's why people say that even if Iran kicked out all the
              inspectors and went full-bore for bombs, it would take them
              5-10 years for a bomb.
              Bubba promised back in '94 that would be done by '03.
                 \_ The fun part is they don't need nukes to serious screw
                    with the world. A couple of hundred artillery shells would
                    put a serious damper to South Korea's economy, which
                    affects the US economy, and force the US to engage in
                    a third war front. It's goes downhill from there. In truth
                    the nukes or threat of nukes is what is keeping NK an
                    independant state.
                    \_ Personally, I think, without nukes, NK is a paper
                       tiger.  Unlike Iraq, where are continued
                       unrest, resistance and bloodshed, for NK, once the
                       Kim regime is removed from power, the NK people
                       will happily welcome the SKoreans.  The initial
                       attack could be destructive due to the
                       destruction could be destructive due to the
                       proximity of Seoul, but I wouldn't overestimate
                       \_ yup, who cares about civilian casualties
                          when they are not white.
                       the NK conventional forces.  The conventional
                       war would probably last a little longer than
                       Iraq but not much.  But yes, US will be really
                       stretched, but it won't be for very long.  The
                       PLA would gether along the border in case of
                       unrest, etc., but it won't cross the Yalu.  China
                       stretched, but it won't be for very long.  China
                       would want to play a role in terms of establishing
                       influence, but really, there isn't too much that
                       it can do, without appearing very bad since
                       it can do, without appearing rather very bad since
                       the NK regime is morally, and literally, bankrupt,
                       and because China would want to maintain good
                       relations with S. Korea.  Unfortunately, with
                       nukes, things become very scary.  Mr. Kim knows
                       the above, that's why he will always keep his
                       nukes, unless and until he can transform NK, and
                       be viewed as some sort of authoritarian modernizer in
                       the mold of Deng, Putin, Chiang Chingguo, Lee
                       Kuan Yew, etc., but I doubt he has what it takes,
                       and because unlike the other countries, there is
                       a dynamic, succesful, equal-sized South Korea whose
                       existence make a mockery of the legitimacy of his
                       regime.  Still, with nukes, the prudent thing for
                       the surrounding countries to do, is to find a way
                       out for Kim somehow.  China will probably offer
                       him a villa somewhere in China if his regime falls,
                       but it would still be a hot potato for China if
                       a united Korea demands his arse back.
                          \_ They've been selling rockets like hot cakes,
                             I thought.  I would imagine that Pakistan
                             proved pretty conclusively that states which
                             want to be evil little shitbags will be so,
                             regardless of "rational".  I don't understand
                             why the US doesn't just walk away from the
                             table and let Japan, the Chinese and S. Korea
                             handle it--they seem to think themselves well
                             capable of it.  -John
                             \_ NK will only negotiate with the US for
                                some crazy reason.
                             \_ The thing is, China, S.
                                Korea and Japan doesn't care as much as
                                the US as to whether Pakistan has
                                rockets or not.
                                \_ Exactly, and that's part of the problem-
                                   China wants to play regional superpower,
                                   and uses N. Korea as a check to US power.
                                   S. Korea/Japan need US protection on a
                                   strategic level, but not on an immediate
                                   level, so they don't realize the importance
                                   of a balance to the Chinese, and India
                                   seems like they find the US pathetic.  The
                                   logical conclusion seems either to leave
                                   them to sort their shit out, or to let
                                   themselves blow each other to kingdom come.
                                   If the US can resolve (ha ha) the tiny
                                   issue of energy dependency on the middle
                                   east and central asia, pulling out would be
                                   the best option.  -John
                       a united Korea demands his arse back.
                                \_ genau und der ist ein Teil des Problems
                                   China regionalen Superpower spielen möchte
                                   und benutzt N. Korea da eine Überprüfung
                                   zur US Energie. S. Korea/Japan
                                   Notwendigkeit US Schutz auf einem
                                   strategischen Niveau, aber nicht auf einem
                                   sofortigen Niveau, also sie verwirklichen
                                   den Wert einer Balance nicht zum Chinesen,
                                   und Indien scheint, wie sie die US
                                   pathetisch finden. Die logische
                                   Zusammenfassung scheint entweder, sie zu
                                   lassen, um ihre Scheiße heraus zu
                                   sortieren, oder lassen Sie sich zum
                                   Königreich sich durchbrennen kommen. Wenn
                                   die US (ja ja) die kleine Ausgabe der
                                   Energieabhängigkeit auf dem Mittler-Osten
                                   und dem zentralen Asien beheben können,
                                   würde das Ausziehen die beste Wahl sein.
                                   Heil Hitler!                    - John
                       \- demurring on the paper tiger question, they can
                          still sell stuff to non-paper tigers. and they dont
                          have to sell fully functioning nuclear icbms to be
                          a problem. say the regime falls aparts and somewhere
                          you find a receipt for delivery of a couple of kg
                          of highly radioactive material to Mr. Albert Queda
                          (i dunno if they have made ricin or other low tech
                          chem/bio agents) what happens then? this would not
                          be the rational behavior of a state, but the side
                          effect of anarchy.
                          \_ Come to think of it, yes, things could be
                             a little thorny especially since it's not just
                             Kim, but an entire NK generals, officials
                             ruling class.  As much as it's a pain to see
                             justice compromised, it's always a good idea
                             to assure them their safety, and a role to
                             play in a united korea.  Not doing that for
                             the Baath Party members and Iraqi Army officers
                             is one of the biggest mistakes US made.
                             the Baath Party / Iraqi Army officals is one
                             of the biggest mistakes US made, in my opinion.
                             Still to the people of NK, South Koreans are
                             their brothers, unlike the relationship
                             between Iraqis and Pax Americana, so there
                             won't be much resistance once the regime
                             falls.
                       out for Kim somehow.
                             between Iraqis and Pax Americana.
                        \_ You know that the capital of S.Korea is
                           within the artillery range of N.Korean, right?
                           can you imagine what would happened to S.Korean's
                           economy if they suffered just a hour of bombardment?
                           (~60% S.Korean population lives in Seoul)
                           Do you care if hundreds of thousands
                           of refugee across the Yalu river to Chinese border?
                           Do you really think S.Korea has the will and economy
                           to absorb N.Korea?  Chances are, you don't care.
                           Since the Korean War, US only wanted one thing:
                           the collapse of N.Korea regime. Mean while the
                           Chinese/S.Koreans, being at N.Koreans, has a lot
                           of pratical things they need to worry about.  This
                           is why S.Korean's stance is more aligned with the
                           Chinese.  US need to think about WHY S.Koreans,
                           being an ally with USA for past 5 decades, is
                           deviating from USA in terms of N.Korea policy.
                           *FURTHER*  I was hoping Iraq would taught USA
                           a lesson of post-war planning...
                        \_ You know that the capital of S.Korea is
                           within the artillery range of N.Korean, right?
                           can you imagine what would happened to S.Korean's
                           economy if they suffered just a hour of bombardment?
                           (~60% S.Korean population lives in Seoul)
                           Do you care if hundreds of thousands
                           of refugee across the Yalu river to Chinese border?
                           Do you really think S.Korea has the will and economy
                           to absorb N.Korea?  Chances are, you don't care.
                           Since the Korean War, US only wanted one thing:
                           the collapse of N.Korea regime. Mean while the
                           Chinese/S.Koreans, being at N.Koreans, has a lot
                           of pratical things they need to worry about.  This
                           is why S.Korean's stance is more aligned with the
                           Chinese.  US need to think about WHY S.Koreans,
                           being an ally with USA for past 5 decades, is
                           deviating from USA in terms of N.Korea policy.
                           *FURTHER*  I was hoping Iraq would taught USA
                           a lesson of post-war planning...
                           \_ That was sort of my point above--the Chinese
                              have a stake in what happens, while the US is
                              obviously just playing neo-imperialist games.
                              Maybe China should be left to figure out how to
                              deal with N. Korea.  Regarding refugees, they
                              generally tend to stream away from the direction
                              the artillery's coming from... -John
2005/9/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:39693 Activity:nil
9/15    Does anyone know how to use the "Chinese (Hong Kong S.A.R.)" input
        language in XP?  When I tried to add it in Control Panel, there are two
        options under "Keyboard layout/IME".  One is "Chinese (Simplified) - US
        Keyboard" and the other is "Chinese (Traditional) - US Keybard".  I
        tried both, but I can't figure out how to enter any Chinese characters
        in either layout.  No matter what keys I press, it still gives me
        English characters.  Entering Chinese characters in "Chinese (PRC)" and
        "Chinese (Taiwan)" works fine on my XP, but I want to use Cantonese
        phonetic.  TIA.
        \_ I use a Tablet PC, it's more natural and easier.
           \_ But I only have a desktop PC running XP Pro SP2.
        \_ You need to provide more information, son.
           1. You need to decide what encoding you are going to use.
              Most people in Hong Kong uses Traditional Chinese and
              Big 5+HK extension internally.
           2. Assuming you are using T.Chinese + Big5, you simply
              get this package:
              http://www.microsoft.com/hk/hkscs/default.aspx
           3. If that package didn't work, then, you need to look for
              IME specific to Hong Kong.
           If you have more questions regards to CJK issues, email me.
                                        -kngharv
2005/9/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/Security] UID:39626 Activity:nil
9/10    One more data point that libertarianism leads to chaos:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4227578.stm
        \_ "It can be used for many good things, like giving the oppressed a
           voice, but users can also preach race-hatred or share child
           pornography with complete impunity."  Gee, what else does that sound
           like to you... I know!  Speech!  Hands!  Computers!  Brains!
           Ban them all!
        \_ Any politcal/economic system can be a problem if unchecked.  That
           why we have limits on speech, captialism, etc.
2005/9/9-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Blog] UID:39591 Activity:low
9/9     Most of you have probably seen this blog before (translations of
        chinese tattos) but today's top post is pretty funny.
        http://www.hanzismatter.com
        \_ http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/essays/tattoos.htm
        \_ This site has exactly the same layout as http://bustywebshots.blogspot.com.
           Interesting.
           Interesting.  Are they related?
           \_ Are you an idiot?  They're both blogger templates.
2005/9/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39508 Activity:low
9/5     Say you're really old and you're going to die in 10 years. You don't
        care about your credit rating. Isn't it possible that you borrow a
        big sum from the bank and then declare bankrupcy later on? Or
        don't even bother with it since you're going to die?
        \_ If you die any debts are paid out of your estate, so anyone
           who lent money to you would get it back providing you didn't
           just waste it.  And I doubt they would lend to the elderly who
           didn't have money to really cover the loan. -mrauser
           \- a think a better scenario is if you have a terminal disease
              or are contemplating leaving the country ... in the leave
              the country case, after liquidating assets, i wonder if you
              can avoid your last tax bill. that could be like a million
              dollars on cap gains.
              \_ Owing the gubmint a million bucks would make it difficult
                 and dangerous to visit the States afterwards.  Obviously this
                 would not be a concern for the terminally ill.  I do know
                 people with large amounts of untaxed and unknown to the US
                 foreign investments.  They can only spend the money outside the
                 country and actually live somewhat shabbily (relative to
                 their total available means) in the US.
                 \_ It worked for Marc Rich.  -John
                 \- well i mean a scenario like an immigrant from china or
                    india sells their million dollar real estate and stock
                    portfolio and moves back home and happily settles there.
                    \_ I assumed that those Chinese or Indian immigrants who
                       might escape with the tax-free millions might still want
                       to visit the US later or to send their kids to college
                       here.  The US is quite a pleasant place to live or just
                       to visit, and it will take a bit of money to compensate
                       for the permanent inability to enter the US.
                  \_ The person would need to avoid investing with US based
                     financial institutions or those who share banking treaties
                     with the US. Frozen assets suck.
2005/9/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:39470 Activity:nil
9/3     Is there a Chinese tradition that the best man/bridesmaid must be
        single and not married? How often does this tradition get followed?
        And is there a thing about the NUMBER of best man/bridesmaid for
        not having bad luck (4 is a bad number for example)? Someone with
        experience with Chinese traditions please shed some light. Thanks!
        \_ Traditionally (imperial time, or during the day of my grand
           parents).  There is no such thing as best man /bridesmaid.
           Best man / brides maid is 100% western idea.  I don't know
           about mainland China, but in Taiwan, people kept adding all
           sort of Chinese twist to it.  Typically (i.e. socially acceptable
           norm), there is only one grooms man and brides maid.  And yes,
           they are usually single.  You want to avoid those who are
           divorced.  *AND* given the choice, make sure groom man /
           brides maid's parents are not seperated and still alive.
           Further, you want to make sure bride maid is not born in the
           year of ferocious animal, such as Tiger, etc.
           Honestly, if I were you, I'll go 100% western.  Very few
           does 100% Chinese any more, which I find it pity.  I really
           hate the idea of bride wearing white for two reason. 1. for
           Chinese, white is reserved for funeral.  and 2.  white supposely
           symbolize purity in Wstern culture.  Can you find any "pure"
           bride nowadays?      - bitter Chinese
           \_ yeah, I did! -happy Taiwanese
2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:39334 Activity:high
8/28    50,000 maidens vie to become Swazi King's 13th wife. What the hell?
        Are they still living in the 15th century? Also, I wonder if the
        princess was listening to rap or hip-hop:
     http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_swaziland_whipping
        \- now the modern amercican 21st century approach would be to turn
           it into a REALITY SHOW.
           \_ Big win, since it would raise the number of minorities on
              prime time network TV.
              \_ I find this entire thread unbearably depressing. -- ilyas
                 \- maybe you were happier in the Age of Aquarius?
                    Ilyas Inquiry: Are you familar with Jamie Robins?
                                   Is he one of your masters?
                    \_ Harvard Epidemiology Robins?  I site him a lot.  My
                       Dark Master likes him too.  I used an example of Robins'
                       in my last IJCAI paper. -- ilyas
                       \_ go to bed dude
                          \- yes, Jamie Robins who looks like Spalding Gray
                             and who may ride a teenger's bike.
                             and rides a teenger's bike.
           \_ I don't think SWAZILAND has that many TVs.  -John
                \_ The lucky girl gets a BMW and a cellphone!
                   \_ But no TV.  Go figure.
        \_ [format police]
        \_ Well, the government is implementing "intelligent design" in
        schools across America. What the hell? Are they still living in the
        15th century?
        \_ What does this have to do with the 15th century? More like
           4000 B.C.
           \_ One wonders what sorts of social organization were prevalent
              in 4000 BC.
              \_ Chinese didn't have law prevents brothers and sisters
                 sleeping on the same bed until something like 1000 BC
                 or later.  just tell you how primitive
                 Chinese society was at the time... and I assure you
                 there aren't that many civilization which was as
                 advanced as Chinese at the time.
                 \_ Huh?
                 \_ Interesting.  Partha would say that the rule of law is
                    the basis of civilized society.  Ilyas would say it's
                    property rights.  Apparently, you're saying it's the
                    prohibition against conjugal relationship with one's
                    siblings.  I like the way you think!
                 \_ I knew I was born too late!
                               \- just a small point: i think "rule" is
                                  a prior condition for "society" beyond
                                  small family/tribal type units. "rule of
                                  law" often suggests a sense of justice and
                                  adding "civilized" also puts a slightly
                                  editorial spin on things. i'm making an
                                  empirical claim [you need non-anarchy
                                  for society to get beyond a Hobbesian
                                  state of nature. not a normative claim
                                  about "what is good", like is depotism
                                  worse than the SoN, i.e. taking a position
                                  for or against "Live Free or Die"]. --psb
                    \_ Wow, you've gotten both me AND psb wrong.  I like the
                       way you think! -- ilyas
                 \_ I knew I was born thirty centuries late!
                       \- The darkness drops again; but now I know
                          That twenty centuries of stony sleep
                          Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle
        \_ dude, let them be.  There is nothing wrong with their way of life.
           \_ Polygamists make baby Jesus cry.
              \_ Ok fine. Uh, 2000-1500 BC.
           \_ really?  would you change places with any random person in their
              society?  would you want our society to emulate theirs?
        \_ Why is the king's own daughter in that party?
        \_ Why is the king's own daughter in that party?  He must be a fan of
           <DEAD>www.daddydoesdaughter.com<DEAD>
        \_ "... a country where 40 percent of adults live with HIV."  Wow.
2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:39330 Activity:nil
8/29    Anyone has any experience with IPTVs?  Do they work ok?  In
        particular, I am interested in mixed China/Taiwan/HK offerings.
        Recently got a mail offering from http://kylintv.com but it seems to
        be pure PRC serials / HK movies.  I also want Taiwan variety
        and political shows.  I am in the midwest, so I don't get
        any chinese channels, and I am getting free cable, so I don't
        want to go directtv.
2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:39264 Activity:nil
8/25    Vancouver has a lot, I mean A LOT of massive planned communities
        which include really nice looking affordable high-rise condos like
        the ones you'd see in HK or Taiwan. Does Bay Area have something
        similar?
        http://www.concordpacific.com/inourhomes/in_our_homes.html
        http://tinyurl.com/a3o8t    (Do we have this "social housing" thing?)
        \_ Wow.  Those taglines sound like stuff out of the 80's.
           \_ I wasn't born till the 80s. What's so special about those
              taglines? And is that GOOD 80s or BAD 80s?
        \_ These are owned, developed, and sold by HK's wealthiest man,
           Li Ka-shing. His vision was to transform parts of Vancouver into
           a completely walkable city, with shops, restaurants, work places,
           affordable home, and luxurious homes. It is no wonder many
           Canadians take pride in the HonKouver.
        \_ "About half of the 1,200 condominiums built so far have been sold
            to Hong Kong investors, who do not live in them. "
         http://www.nytimes.com/specials/hongkong/archive/0214hongkong-vancouver.html
        \_ Doubtful the BA will develop these. SF would be the ideal location
           but there is a general distrust against developers and skyscrapers.
           Recent residental towers in SF demonstrate that distrust and the
           results are unappealing. The punchline would be "the food is
           horrible AND such small portions too."
2005/8/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:39123 Activity:high
8/15    India's IT companies emulating Toyota to combine low cost and
        talent with discipline, quality and continuous improvements.
        Man, you guys are deadmeat.
        http://yahoo.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_34/b3948443.htm
        \_ "Think of any job that can be done remotely, by computer or
           telephone, and you're looking at a job that can be done by an
           Indian" and therein lies the crux of the problem.  How long do you
           think these guys are going to want to do the backoffice out-of-sight
           shit work?  They'll start outsourcing the outsourcing to China.
           And at some point you're going to get enough local demand there for
           consulting know-how to absorb all their cheap excess capacity.  At
           the same time, you'll see companies in other parts of the world go
           for competitive advantage through knowledge of their local markets.
           I'm not weeping, nor am I worried.  -John
           \_ that's just your wishful thinking.  the answer to the question
              "How long ...." is there are 1.4 billion indians, pakistanis
              and bengali.
              \_ Yes, and another 1.x billion Chinese, and another uncounted
                 hundreds of millions of Indonesians, Malaysians, Thais and
                 other smart, educated and ambitious folks.  So?  It's a
                 peculiar sort of arrogance to assume that these people will
                 all be happily living in mud hovels while they evolve
                 economically.  Power to them.  Likewise, the more advanced
                 local economies become, the more demand you'll see there for
                 goods and services of the sort that American and European
                 firms were happily providing to each other for decades.  Go
                 join a union or something, the rest of us will be working to
                 adapt and compete with these guys on increasingly equal terms.
                 It's called "progress".  -John
                 \_ This reminds me of Hong Kong.  While virtually all textile
                    and electronic industries, once the dominant driving forces
                    of its economy, have relocated to the nearby SE China,
                    people in Hong still managed to survive somehow.  What do
                    people do to make a living these days?
                    people in Hong Kong still managed to survive somehow.  How
                    do people make a living these days?
                    \_ err ... it's much easier for a hong konger to go
                       start a business or go work in shen zhen, etc., then for
                       your american worker to go work in bangalore.  the
                       relationship between hong kong and its south china
                       hinterland is very different from that between US and
                       India / China.  another example is taiwan where the
                       starting salary for university graduates has been
                       dropping, and unemployment rates rising, while the
                       rich business men of taiwan are doing well in china.
                    \_ When it gets down to it -- talking trade balances here --
                       once we've brain-drained all our technology into other
                       countries, once things have evened out, they're making
                       cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and
                       selling them here -- once our edge in natural resources
                       has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and
                       dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New
                       Zealand for a nickel -- once the Invisible Hand has taken
                       all those historical inequities and smeared them out into
                       a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would
                       consider to be prosperity -- y'know what? There's only
                       four things we do better than anyone else:
                                music
                                movies
                                microcode (software)
                                high-speed pizza delivery
                       And I guess all the Hong Kongers are into banking or
                       similar now.  Remember that all the Guangzhouers or what-
                       ever they're called also want the shiny cars.  -John
                       \_ John, I never would have guessed you were a
                          Stephenson fanboy.
                \_ Language barriers will still be an isssue with many of
                \_ language barriors will still be an isssue with many of
                   the outsourcing efforts.
                \_ really?  check out the trade statistics with US among
                   the more advanced countries of asia.  "progress"?  sure.
                   american capital, know-how and expertise flowing freely
                   to china and india most certainly will help them progress,
                   and help the rich capital owners in the US prosper.
                   big loser?  american workers, who are getting screwed in
                   so many different ways.
                   \_ So what do you suggest?
                   \_ Apparently not.  "barriers".
                      \_ I suggest a career change.
                         \_ I work for the government.  My work is not
                            outsourceable.
                            \_ thanks for sharing.
                               on a national basis, globalization meant
                               that the corporate response to the
                               opening of china and india is simply to
                               move operations there.  the burden thus
                               falls entirely on US workers to adapt.
                               there is little incentive for US corporations
                               to change in terms of investing in
                               automation, R&D, worker training and
                               education, etc.  In fact there may even
                               be less of an inventive than before since
                               they can just obtain their labor source
                               from china and india, abundantly.  thus
                               US workers would receive little help
                               from US corporations.  this would be
                               different if capital does not flow as
                               freely and US corporations and workers
                               must compete as a unit.  Is this a
                               case where government provided
                               incentives are called for?  in the form
                               of incentives for corporations to invest
                               in the US on R&D, workers training,
                               equipment, etc., and perhaps also more
                               direct government help with education and
                               training of US workers?  these would
                               help mitigate the transition, without
                               stifling free market and competition, and
                               are done by countries in asia and elsewhere.
                               \_ Part of the problem is not just that
                                  corporations are moving abroad without any
                                  penalty (which they should be free to do) but
                                  that they're being stupidly subsidized while
                                  doing so.  A good start would be to encourage
                                  SMEs by reducing regulatory and tax burden
                                  on small companies, so people don't feel
                                  beholden to large outfits for jobs.  -John
2005/7/31-8/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:38901 Activity:low
7/31    Nee how! Better start practicing Mandarin to remain competitive
        in the business world: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/uschinaeducation
        \_ 1.5 billion in federal money for Chinese instruction?  Why not just
           get rid of all that time-wasting French and use *that* money to
           teach useful languages?
           \_ but speaking French make me feel high class and better than
              everyone else, and it sure impresses the hell outa hot
              looking blond chicks! And it makes me feel like John Kerry.
              \_ If someone tries to say that learning French is more useful
                 for meeting and impressing women than learning Chinese, the
                 appropriate response is to point at them and laugh.
                 \_ not everyone is an asian-loving white nerd boy.
                  \_ You got that right! Only brain washed white nerd boys
                     in the Bay Area love Asians. The pure Aryan race still
                     wants pure white blond bimbos for master domination.
                     \_ That...is why you fail to troll.  Because you do not
                        believe.
                     \_ The pure Asian race still wants pure white blond bimbos
                        for masturbation.
                 \_ My (Chinese) wife was more impressed that I could speak
                    French.
              \_ Troll...or do not.  There is no try.
        \_ you can try learning, but you shall fail, or at best, speak with
           a silly accent.  I suggest learning to understand indian accented
           english instead.  or try hindi.
           a silly accent.  mandarin is an inscrutable language.  I suggest
           learning to understand indian accented english instead.  or try hindi.
           learning to understand indian accented english instead.  or try
           hindi.
           \_ Bullshit.  In short phone conversations, I've been mistaken for
              a native speaker.  I started learning when I was young, which
              would obviously be true of kids if we taught it properly
              in the schools. -white guy
         \_ I am the Little Chinese.  I am still here!
2005/7/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:38813 Activity:kinda low
7/25    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050725/od_nm/china_suicide_dc
        China suicide rate climbing. This is going to solve their
        high men/women ratio, a cause for major frustration.
        \_ Man, that must be depressing for the parents.  They can only
           have one kid, so they go to a lot of trouble to produce a boy
           to carry on the family line.  Then he kills himself.  Oops.
           \_ Well if you're a gay Chinaman it's a really good thing.
              \_ Maybe if you're a necropiliac gay Chinaman...
                 \_ No, I mean this trend is good because straight men kill
                    themselves out of frustration, so most of the men left
                    are either straight&married, or gay, which makes them
                    easier to find.
              \_ It's funny how you use "gay" so you don't offend
                 homosexuals, and yet you don't care about offending us
                 "Chinamen".  Thanks.
           \_ iirc, the new policy is that if both you and your wife
              are the only child of your family, you can have 2 kids.
        \_ There are a lot of innovative solutions China should embrace
           to prevent this societal epidemic caused by sexual frustrations.
           1) Implement rent-a-girlfriend service. If your parents visit
           you and nag about it you can rent a girlfriend to shut them
           up. 2) Allow more brothels. A man can't jackoff all his life,
           he has to release his sexual urges somehow or else he'll
           go crazy and kill himself, and in some cases (like the Iraqi
           loners) kill others with them. 3) Allow more economic
           incentives for having girls. 4) Discourage marriage between
           pretty native Chinese women and extremely wealthy, old, and ugly
           Hong Kong and Taiwanese lords who already have 3rd and 4th wives.
           This has been going on for a while and is really really causing
           a lot of resentments and pissing off a lot of natives whos lives
           are changed drastically [for the worse] by these foreigners.
           \_ yea, but they can just go to vietnam, like what many taiwanese
              are doing.
              \_ So are Koreans.  There were tons of billboards saying
                 "Marry Vietnamese!  We'll set you up!"  Word on the
                 street was that Vietnamese ladies work harder. -jrleek
                 Addendum:  Oddly, I watched a sort of Korean Hard Copy
                 with my wife tonight, and it had a segment on Koreans
                 mail ordering Vietnamese brides.  It was mostly about a
                 37-year old lower-middle class Korean batchelor who
                 scored himself a pretty good-looking 22 year old
                 Vietnamese bride.  Still, she didn't really speak much
                 Korean, and nobody in the family liked Vietnamese food.
                 \_ Let me get this right, YOU [white American] understand
                    Korean? How? Why?
                    \_ maybe cuz he...married a korean?
                       \_ Is he sky?
                    \_ I spent 2 years in Korea as a missionary, which is
                       some pretty intense language training. Then I
                       married a Korean, we speak a lot of Korean around
                       the house.
                       \_ So dorky white guy takes Korean women, forcing
                          Korean man to take Vietnamese women...
           \_ #1 already exists.  Someone posted a link about this on the MOTD
              a year or so ago.  #3 is quite doable in China.
           \_ #2 is pretty much a free market (or free-for-all market) already.
              there are an estimated 5 million prostitutes in the PRC.
           \_ #3 is easy.  just learn from singapore.  prc already
              followed singapore's model on its new yuan exchange rate
              policy - pegging to a basket of foreign currencies based
              on trade with those countries.
        \_ Maybe china could provide a economic incentive for sex change
           operations. That way chinese guys wouldn't have kill themselves
           and they could make some white guy w/ yellow fever happy.
           \_ If thats the goal, sex change isn't necessary.  Lots of gay
              white guys have yellow fever as well.
                \_ So you might need a sexual orientation change operation
                   instead.
                   \_ sigh ... why you worry so much?  just go import some
                        women from russia lah.  or just offer your own
                        pasty arse, maybe there will be some takers.
2005/7/25-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:38809 Activity:nil
7/25    Max Boot thinks China can produce earthquakes
        http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/13305.html
        it's a reprint of a LA Times editorial from
        July 20th that I don't feel like making you all
        get a login from bugmenot. - danh
        \_ I've heard that if a billion men jump up and down at the
           same time the evil nation on the other side of the globe may
           feel it.
        \_ hmmm ... isn't the things he is accusing china of doing the same
           ones the US and the west have been perceived as doing to other
           countries through history?  Let's see:
           financial warfare - asian financial crisis triggered by soros
           drug warfare - opium war, alcohol for the indians
           psychological and media warfare - pro-US propaganda radio stations
                all over the world
           resource warfare - countless examples of this.
           ecological warfare - okay, this one is debatable.  but here's
                Jack London's biological warfare proposal against china:
       http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/StrengthStrong/invasion.html
2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:38729 Activity:low
7/20    Do you care if the Chinese buy Unocal/76?
        \_ No. As long as gas price is not affected and my tax is low
           I don't care if the Chinese takes over.
           \_ Hah!  Your poor grammar gives you away as a FOB Chinese.
              \_ You should just go all Deadwood on us, and call them
                 "Celestials and dirt worshippers."
        \_ It really doesn't matter.  In the next 5-10 years, all that will
           matter who has the best military outpost in the mideast to secure
           oil supplies.
           \_ Let's rename Iran to New Texas when that happens!
        \_ Just out of curiousity, why were the Chinese all upset that we
           might have a problem with this transaction? Is it even possible
           for one of our large corporations to buy a large Chinese
           corporation?
           \_ where did you get the impression that the Chinese were all
                upset?  it seems to me it's the US who got all upset.
                \_ There were stories about the Chinese being upset that
                   we have a problem with THEM buying a US company.
                   \_ url?
           \_ Where did you get the impression that the Chinese are into
              fairness?
2005/7/16-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:38654 Activity:moderate
7/16    What in the FUCKING WORLD is wrong with the ppl in tw?  They report
        Harry Potter plot spoilers as news events... Headline in bold on
        news sites printing so and so was killed in book 6.  WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?
        \_ I know a little Chinese, but never read taiwanese news sites.  I
           definitely appreciate the warning.  Thanks.  BTW, I propose a 1
           week potter book 6 blackout on the motd, if not longer.
           \_ Damn, and I wanted to tell the world that Harry finds out
              that James Potter isn't really dead but is masquerading
              as the Dread Pirate Sith Lord LeChuck.
        \_ Geez, it took you this long to understand why the heroic PRC wants
           to invade the place and put paid to this outrage?  -John
           \_ believe me or not, there are plenty of denizens in TW are
              looking forward for this day. and the number is growing.
        \_ Too bad. It's a good thing I can't read Chinese.
        \_ Maybe there is no real news to report?
        \_ You're saying someone was killed in book 6!?!?  Oh no, a spoiler!!
2005/6/23-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:38269 Activity:nil
6/23    Yeehaw! Dubya don't give a fuck about world perception:
        The United States' popularity in many countries - including longtime
        allies in Europe - is lagging behind even communist China.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5094510,00.html
        \_ bbc (somewhat liberal slant) >>> guardian (ultra liberal slant)
           http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4124164.stm
           \_ The Free Republic >>> bbc
              http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1429190/posts
2005/6/22-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:38237 Activity:nil
6/21    Competition For Jobs, Partners Sparks Height Craze In China.
        Height Stretching Machines:
        http://www.local6.com/money/4574140/detail.html
        \_ I will be as a god! --erikred
           \_ Oh you know you already are, big boy.  -John
2005/6/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:38103 Activity:nil
6/13    "Microsoft joins efforts to censor Web in China"
        http://csua.org/u/cc5 (Yahoo! News)
        Commie Gates!
        \_ The Chinese govt used to be anti-MS.  Guess they'll change their
           position now.
        \_CommieIE 1.0 (builtin censorship into the OS)
2005/6/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38092 Activity:moderate
6/12    Why don't I hear any leftists whining about US imperial
        oppression of Mugabe these days?
        Mugabe's L1m Party As Millions Face Starvation
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1421595/posts
        \_ Nothing to do with leftists or rightists--the man's a shitbag,
           deserving of government-sanctioned assassination, and it'd be nice
           to hear from _anyone_ (including the US govt., see AIUSA thread
           below) that "something" should be done about him.  -John
           \_ it has everything to do with leftists.  He is a leftist, he
              is adored by leftists.
              \_ Either I'm being (badly) trolled or you're an idiot.  I
                 suspect both.  -John
                 \_ is this projection??? even the left leaning
                    wikipedia acknowledges hes a Marxist
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugabe
                    \_ You've come from "you leftists are stupid, ha ha,
                       you adore Mugabe" to "wikipedia calls Mugabe a
                       Marxist."  He's a shitbag, decent people of all
                       political stripes loathe him.  Did you have a point?
                       No?  Next then.  -John
                       \_ I don't understand your vitrol.  Mugabe is
                          a Marxist and, though you may have missed the
                          news reporting it, was cheered by the left during
                          his ascendence to power.  This same Marxist
                          scenario has played itself countless times and
                          yet there are always people like yourself
                          pretending he is something he is not.  Strange.
                          \_ Whatever pretenses he had to Marxism were
                             in line with his leadership role in the Rhodesian
                             civil war against the Smith regime, which was a
                             reasonably noble undertaking.  Overthrow of
                             bad governments is as laudable if they are white,
                             oppressive and racist as if they are black,
                             oppressive and racist.  Mugabe has given up any
                             "revolutionary credibility" by being a vicious
                             shit.  I'm defending neither marxists nor thugs;
                             I do, however, make allowance for people of any
                             political persuasion to change their view of a
                             tyrant once his true colors show.  Would you say
                             that anyone calling himself politically xyz is
                             automatically xyz?  Was Joe Stalin a communist?
                             What would Marx have said?  You tell me.  -John
        \_ Why don't you hear any? Probably becuase you don't bother to
           read anytyhing outside your carefully circumscribed circle.
           Slate and The Nation have been griping about this guy for
           almost a decade. Glad you finally noticed he was a bastard.
           The Right used to love him, because he was anti-Soviet.
           \_ The fact that Trotsky disliked Stalin and Mao disliked
              Ho-Chi Minh does not preclude them all from being Marxists.
              But you are right Mugabe is really more a Maoist, having
              received the most support from China.
              \_ Oh, that's all right then.  I got a newspaper in Berkeley
                 that talks all about how great Mao was.
2005/6/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37950 Activity:high
6/2     Christopher Cox is nominated to be head of SEC:
        http://tinyurl.com/aju4p
        I remember he is the guy said that *ALL* Chinese Americans
        are potentially spy for the communist China.  Thank god
        9/11 happened, or Chinese will be the one who are being
        targeted.
        \_ He's also on record as saying that he didn't see anything wrong
           with Enron's accounting practices.
        \_ Is it not true?
           \_ just think that broad statement like that is racist,
              nothing more.  and he is close to Bush's inner circle.
              \_ Not that I particularly have strong feelings either way
                 on any of this, but I just wanted to make a meta-comment
                 about people's propensity to care more about whether something
                 is racist or not, rather than whether something is true or not.
                 -- ilyas
                 \_ There's this nuance to human interaction that involves
                    intent and inflection, which can radically change the
                    information being transmitted.  In these situations, it's
                    clearly possible that while understanding the meaning
                    of the words, the content of the message is entirely lost
                    upon the strict logician/semanticist.
                 \_ It's too bad that people have become so concerned about
                    racism, that they've somewhat lost the ability to
                    distinguish between general stupidity with no malicious
                    intent and genuine hatred based solely on race.  Of
                    course, evaluating a statement based solely on its truth
                    can yield information that falls very short of the intent.
                    There's a bigger picture here than pure semantics, ilyas.
                    \_ It's fairly clear that the fellow in the original post
                       wasn't interested in stating a near-tautology, but was
                       more interested in stirring up some sort of xenophobia
                       towards Chinese-Americans.  I probably didn't explain
                       well enough that I wasn't commenting on that specific
                       line at all.  I am more interested in people unwilling
                       to start discussions on things like aptitude differences
                       among ethnic groups (since such things are 'racist').
                       The followup which responded to the question of whether
                       the line was true with the implication it was racist
                       reminded me of this dynamic playing out (regardless of
                       how well justified it may be in some cases).  I hope you
                       weren't implying I have Asperger's or something. -- ilyas
                    \_ Are you also saying intent and inflection is
                       generally transmittable across the Internet, or are you
                       just making a general remark?  Or perhaps that
                       someone, somewhere might be having a mild case of
                       Asperger's syndrome... -- ilyas
                 \_ "All humans are potential spies for communist China" is a
                    true statement as well.  It is clearly not a racist
                    statement, but it is a stupid one.  From a purely strategic
                    point of view, paranoia about Chinese scientists has the
                    potential to harm our country more than any Chinese spy.
                    In fact, I believe it is doing very real harm to our country
                    right now.
                    \_ Some additional 'racist hypotheses' from our friends at
                       http://economist.com:
                       http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638
                       I am sort of glad these sorts of things can even be
                       printed these days without being laughed out of the
                       room. -- ilyas
                       \_ "On average" vs. "All"
                          \_ As I said, neither of my comments have been
                             really about the original post. -- ilyas
2005/5/28-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:37871 Activity:nil
5/27    I read couple Chinese newspaper saying that 15 of F-117A is now
        in South Korea.  Does any of you knew about this?
        \_ http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-869425.php
           \_ This article implies over 100 F-117A are deployed around the world
              when only 54 remain. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-117-specs.htm
              when only 55 remain. http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=104
        \_ I read a lot of things in Chinese newspaper, some don't get
           reported in American media until a few days later. Why?
2005/5/20-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:37787 Activity:moderate
5/20    Has any republic in the history of the world lasted longer than 300
        years?
        \_ Is the English Commonwealth a republic?
           \_ No.  There is a monarch.
           \_ To be precise, it's a Constitutional Monarchy.
        \_ If you mean 'country' then sure.  If you mean 'continuous
           government' I'm not so sure.
           \_ I mean continuous government.
        \_ The Chow dynasty in ancient China lasted ~800 years under a
              continuous govt.  But it's not a republic.
           continuous govt.  But it's not a republic.  Switzerland has been a
           republic as the Swiss Confederation since 1291.
           \_ Confederation, not Republic :)  -John
              \_ According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook
                 (yeah, the CIA), it's a federal republic.  I don't know what
                 the difference is.
                 \_ Uh, erm, but they haven't broken our yodel code!  -John
           \_ Zhou Dynasty had total of 23 successions (e.g. 24 Emperors),
              most numerous successions in China's 5000 years history.
              In many ways number of successions is a better guage than
              number of years when one judge the length of regimes.
        \_ Rome.
           \_ 510 BC to 44 BC according to Wikipedia:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_republic
              But wasn't the period from 133 BC on pretty much a mess?
        \_ The Thousand Year Reich lasted 12 years.
2005/5/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37650 Activity:high
5/11    Debunk Walmart Myths, go to http://walmartfacts.com
        See, they're not as bad as people think they are.
        \_ Walmart is probably not as evil as a lot of people seem to think.
           Walgreens on the other hand is infinitely more evil than almost
           anyone realizes.
           \_ Really?  My wife worked for six years at the pharmacy dept. in a
              Walgreen store, and she didn't think it was evil.
              Walgreen store, and she didn't think it was evil.  I don't shop
              there often, but that's because prices are not low.
        \_ According to WalMart, did the holocaust happen or not?
           \_ What does the holocaust have to do with Walmart's business?
                \_ If WalMart says it happened, then maybe it actually didn't.
        \_ Wal-Mart is worse than most people think they are. It's not
           because of how they treat their employees, but because of how
           they treat their suppliers and how ruthlessly they compete with
           their competitors.
           \_ competition, oh the humanity.
              \_ There is competition and there is ruthless competition. For
                 instance, Wal-Mart charges companies for display space
                 (as do a lot of companies) but with Wal-Mart is it
                 extortion. Wal-Mart often sells products for below cost
                 in a bid to drive others out of business, because they
                 have the leverage to do so. That is not good for
                 consumers or the economy. It is not healthy competition.
                 It is the systematic destruction of competition and
                 suppliers at the same time.
                 \_ Why don't you go file an anti-trust lawsuit then?
                    \_ I think someone ultimately will, but I'm certainly
                       not equipped to do so.
                    \_ The government files anti-trust lawsuits, not
                       private parties.
                 \_ You know, Wal-mart have been sued for predatory pricing
                    before.  AFAIK, they have won in every case.  Care to
                    provide research to back up your claim?
                    \_ Which claim? That Wal-Mart extorts money from
                       \_ Predatory pricing.  Wal-mart has never been successly
                          sued for predatory pricing, i.e. selling products
                          below cost to drive out competitors.  I assume it
                          would have been clear from the context.  Mea Culpa.
                          \_ Wal-Mart has settled lawsuits, though, including
                             one in Wisconsin. They were also ordered by
                             a German court to stop selling items for
                             below cost.
                       suppliers? My dad worked for a big supplier to
                       Wal-Mart and Wal_mart said "If you don't pay us x
                       Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart said "If you don't pay us x
                       $$$ cash we will not stock your product. We don't
                       care if it sells or not." In this case x was a
                       number larger than the revenues generated and
                       Wal-Mart didn't give a shit. Wal-Mart then sets its
                       own price to move the product, which might possibly
                       be less than cost. They can "sell at a loss" because of
                       the cash they received up front and of course
                       people will buy the product at Wal-Mart because it
                       is cheaper there - nevermind it is bankrupting an
                       American company building product in America with
                       Americans labor. Target, on the other hand, doesn't
                       do that bullshit.
                       American labor. Target, on the other hand, doesn't
                       do that bullshit and so the company took their
                       business there. However, Wal-Mart is gradually
                       putting competition out of business and *then*
                       where do you distribute your product? Mom and pop
                       store? No one will buy it because they can buy
                       cheap Chinese knock-offs at Wal-Mart for less. Wal-Mart
                       doesn't care if it bankrupts suppliers as long as
                       they have the cash. There will be other suppliers -
                       an endless stream - right?
                       \_ Predatory pricing.  Wal-mart has never been successly
                          sued for predatory pricing, i.e. selling products
                          below cost to drive out competitors.  I assume it
                          would have been clear from the context.  Mea Culpa.
              \_ Wal-Mart has so much leverage over suppliers that it is
                 driving entire industries to China.  They force prices so
                 low that the ONLY way for a company to keep going is to
                 oursource to China.  Furthermore, they force every other
                 retailer to do the same thing or go out of business because
                 it allows them to sell hair dryers for $2 cheaper.  Not to
                 mention all the money they suck out of the public treasury.
                 One good result from peak oil will be the end of WalMart.
                 Their whole business structure depends on 10,000 mile supply
                 chains which will become uneconomical in about 5-10 years
                 do to oil scarcity.
                 \_ Did you read the page at the URL above?  It countered the
                    China and the public treasury claims.  Please point out
                    what part of the page is lying.
                    \_ The URL doesn't really refute anything. It just
                       states facts. Pretty smart, actually. There is no
                       concept presented of what the facts really mean.
                       \_ Do you prefer counter-claims with no facts instead?
                          From the site: in 2004, $18b merchandise from Chinese
                          suppliers vs. $137.5b from US ones.  Does that say
                          something?
                          \_ Not about my argument it doesn't. However,
                             what if it was true (I'm making this up) that
                             the numbers were higher/lower in 2003? While
                             their facts might be true, it doesn't
                             identify a trend. For all we know, that year
                             was a anomaly. --dim
                          \_ Look at the way they word it; I'm sure all their
                             bicycles are made in Asia but if they buy from
                             Huffy it's a "U.S. supplier."  -tom
                             \_ The way they word it is that the $18b includes
                                "about $9 billion imported from direct sources
                                and about $9 billion from indirect sources".
                                So your hyperthetical Huffy bicycle would be in
                                the second $9b of the $18b.
                                \_ Bullshit.  -tom
                                   \_ Which part of the above quote from
                                      Walmart is a lie?
                 \_ Maybe it's just me, but "they force every other retailer
                    to do the same thing [force prices so low that their
                    suppliers must outsource to China] or go out of business
                    because it allows them to sell hair dryers for $2 cheaper"
                    is a pretty amazing statement.  Most monopolists force
                    out the competition so they can extract higher rent.  But
                    *not* Walmart!  Those bastards force out the competition
                    so they can charge *less*!  That's just perverse.  I hope
                    Walmart doesn't try to branch out and sell gas or
                    something.  God knows I want to spend *more* on a fill up!
                        \_ Do you think once WalMart has totally eliminated
                           the competition their prices will remain low?  Or
                           are you kind of dim?
                           \_ Oddly enough, I couldn't find any indication
                              that Walmart charges higher prices once it has
                              come to dominate a market -- and I've looked.
                              There are lots of people saying Walmart *could*,
                              or even Walmart *did*, but there's a complete
                              lack of data.  There's nothing that says anything
                              to the effect that, in market N, after Walmart
                              has come to dominate, prices increased by x%, or
                              even the magnitude/frequency of price drops
                              decreased.  Since you're so sure this happens, do
                              you have a reference?  Not accusations, mind
                              you, but research.  Or is your claim just so much
                              groundless MOTD propaganda?
                              groundless MOTD bluster?
                              \_ It's not about charging higher prices.
                                 It's about declining quality and
                                 destruction of the environment in the
                                 pursuit of lower prices. Suppliers are
                                 having their profit margins squeezed.
                                 Some are going offshore. Others are
                                 cutting benefits to their own employees
                                 or downsizing. It's hard for those
                                 suppliers to tell Wal-Mart to F*** off
                                 when there is no other channel to
                                 distribute since Wal-Mart has driven them
                                 all under.
                                 \_ Are you the "will prices remain low"
                                    poster?  If so, I take it that you don't
                                    have research to back up your claim.
                                    \_ No, I'm not.
                                 \_ So who's pursing lower prices?  Is it
                                    Wal-mart or the consumers?
                                    \_ Wal-Mart, in pursuit of consumers.
                                       However, it's not about the lowest
                                       price. Say, for example, that generic
                                       cola is cheaper but dangerous.
                                       Wal-Mart has an obligation not to
                                       sell dangerous cola. Wal-Mart is
                                       pushing lower prices, but consumers
                                       don't always know what went into that
                                       bargain. Now that people are finally
                                       educating themselves Wal-Mart is not
                                       as popular.
                                       \_ Is that true?  Yes, I know that
                                          they just announced bad financials.
                                          However, the market seems to think
                                          that Wal-mart's problem is a bad
                                          product mix plus financial discomfort
                                          amongst Wal-mart's target market,
                                          rather than some kind of popular
                                          uprising against the company.  Here's
                                          a link of market research on Wal-mart
                                          in Oklahoma City, which the company
                                          dominates.  It shows that Wal-mart's
                                          *detractors* in fact are the 2nd
                                          largest group of Wal-mart customers
                                          (15% of total Wal-mart shoppers,
                                          5.6 visits in 4 weeks, spending
                                          $289).  http://csua.org/u/c18
                                          \_ It is true in California and
                                             other places where Wal-Mart
                                             has fought big political
                                             battles just to get their
                                             stores built. There are lot
                                             of people opposed to Wal-Mart
                                             - a lot more than, say, 20
                                             (or even 10) years ago.
                                             \_ People (would-be customers) in
                                                favor of a store generally
                                                don't put on a political battle
                                                for it.
                                                \_ Yes, they do. Have you
                                                   followed the news at
                                                   all? Supporters of
                                                   Wal-Mart pitted against
                                                   people opposed to it,
                                                   sometimes on the same
                                                   city councils.
                               \_ Do you seriously expect me to believe
                                  that even when Walmart can raise their
                                  prices because they have a monopoly, they
                                  chose not too out of the goodness of
                                  their hearts? You are the one making
                                  the extraordinary claim here.
                                  \_ Well, I can't prove that they never do
                                     it.  Impossible to prove a negative,
                                     you know.  However, Wal-mart corporate
                                     dictates prices nationwide, and then
                                     individual stores set deltas from the
                                     national price.  It's not clear whether
                                     local managers have the power to do
                                     * +/-n%, or whether the local authority
                                     only extends to "specials".  In any
                                     case, I have not found *any* credible
                                     research that shows Wal-mart extracting
                                     monopoly rent, though there are plenty
                                     of accusations.  I will repeat my
                                     challenge.  If mine is such an incredible
                                     claim, it should be trivial to find
                                     evidence against it.  There are many
                                     markets where Wal-mart is dominant, after
                                     all.  Can *you* find any example of
                                     Wal-mart raising prices *after* forcing
                                     out the competition?  And if you cannot,
                                     then is my claim really so incredible?
                                     Here's a ref. to market research on
                                     Wal-mart in Oklahoma City, where Wal-mart
                                     has 10 supercenters, 6 discount stores, 7
                                     neighborhood markets, and 4 Sam's Clubs.
                                     The study found Wal-mart to champion
                                     low prices.  In fact, "its low prices
                                     and quality merchandise translate into
                                     'looking out for me--the shopper'".
                                     http://csua.org/u/c18
                                     \_ I don't have the time or inclination
                                        to do a cross market study, but if
                                        someone had done it and it supported
                                        it, you can bet Wal-Mart would
                                        trumpet it. Just admit it, you have
                                        to evidence your opinion, other than
                                        your feelings.
                                        your feelings. BTW, referecing that
                                        bit of obvious marketing PR as evidence
                                        doesn't really do much to prove your
                                        case or improve your credibility.
                                  \_ Like I expected, just so much MOTD
                                     bluster without evidence or research.
                                     Amazing as it seems, Wal-mart seems
                                     to maintain low prices even after it
                                     achieves dominance in a market.
                                     \_ Just a lot of MOTD bluster without
                                        evidence. Wal-Mart "seems" huh? Great
                                        thread of argument.
        \_ Look, this is not isolated to Walmart. It is just what super mega
           corporations do. They care about the bottom line-- PROFIT. They
           will do whatever it is profitable. Do you think corporations
           actually have a soul and care about their employees? In reality,
           they will do whatever it takes to be profitable, including
           cutting benefits, hiring non-Unioned workers, squeezing other
           businesses out, and buying imports instead of American. If one
           day, they can replace all of the workers with cheap robots, they
           will not think twice and do it, because it's profitable. It's
           already happened in the outsourcing of Detroit, the entire
           outsourcing of VISA/Mastercard support lines, etc. It's not just
           Walmart. It's what big corporations do. And that's the bottom line.
           \_ No, not every corporation operates like this - even big,
              profitable ones. Example: Petco versus Petsmart. One is
              vaguely aware of social issues and the other is oblivious.
        \_ There was a debate about this on CSPAN recently:
           rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap050705.rm
           I think there are serious problems with Wal-Mart, but more important
           are the underlying issues with China trade.
           \_ Wow.  That Liza Featherstone is the most condescending bitch I've
              ever seen.  "Unions aren't a special interest" indeed.
2005/5/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:37610 Activity:low
5/10    Today's title page engrish is pretty good:
        http://www.engrish.com
        \_ Six years of living in Japan, and I'm still astounded at how
           clueless Japanese people are about inherent racism. --erikred
           \_ "What do you mean?  There's no racism in Korea!" --most
              Koreans. (jrleek)
           \_ There was a brand of toothpaste in Asia called Blackman or
              Blackie toothpaste that had a picture of a black dude on it
              with a big white smile.
              \_ I used to use it exclusively when I was a kid in Hong Kong.
                 The brand name used to be Darkie and the Chinese name was, and
                 still is, "Black People's Toothpaste".  Then Colgate bought
                 the brand and renamed it Darlie and changed the logo.  The
                 idea was that most Hong Kong people had an impression that
                 black people's teeth look very white (probably because of the
                 contrast to the skin color), so if you want your teeth to look
                 like black people's, you'd better use Black People's
                 Toothpaste.  It was very popular because of the brandname.
                 You need to understand that it was not racism against
                 Africans.  I'd think of it as "positive racism", if there's
                 such a thing.
                 \_ No we don't need to understand that.  To say that ignorance
                    of this sort is not grounded in racism is to misunderstand
                    racism.
                    \_ Okay, at least please don't think that this is racism
                       *against* Africans in this case.
                       \_ Okay, raised with a cultural icon like that, what
                          is the immediate gut response when meeting a black
                          man for the first time?  It's as racist as the
                          portrayal of Chinese in Hollywood for decades.
                          \_ I checked out his teeth.  Yeah, it's funny.
                             \_ See, racism is about disrespect of a person or
                                people because they don't look like the people
                                around you.  It doesn't have to be "negative"
                                to be hurtful.  If it puts up a wall or causes
                                objectification when you interact with someone,
                                it's something to fight against.
                    \_ BTW, some other common impression in HK on black people
                       are "black people are better at jazz, rap and other
                       rhythm-centric music forms" and "black people are better
                       at sports that need either explosive power and very
                       short endurance (100m), or very long endurance
                       (marathon)".  On the other hand, the common impression
                       among Americans that "black people have big penes"
                       wasn't widespread in HK.
                       among Americans that "black men have big penes" wasn't
                       widespread in HK.
                       \_ OTOH, the sterotype of black men having larger
                          genitalia is alive and well in Japan. --erikred
           \_ If it's any comfort, there's also a brand of toothpaste in Taiwan
              called Whiteman. I have a tube of it.
        \_ Is that condom?
           \_ yes
2005/5/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37603 Activity:nil
5/10    More grist for the Chicom/troll/reply/motd/debate mill:
        http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/05/10/china_riches/index.html
        China - reinventing capitalism? or feudalism?
2005/5/5-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37543 Activity:low
5/5     Investment time:  I'm looking for a mutual fund that is the best
        approximation of a "Chinese S&P500".  Does such a thing exist?
        Ideally the fund would be based in the US so that it's subject to US
        reporting requirements.
        \_ No. Most Chinese companies are not really in the stock market
           yet, and those that do are so-called "Red Chip" stocks that
           don't really give you many shreholder rights. Stick to Hong
           don't really give you many shareholder rights. Stick to Hong
           Kong and Taiwan for now.
           \_ I did some more research and found that FXI is probably
              the closest to what you want. It is 25 red chip and H
              series shares traded on the Hong Kong stock exchange.
              But the Red Chip stocks are all minority shares in
              companies run by the Chinese government.
        \_ pp is right.  china is doing well, but chinese firms are
           not well regulated and can steal your money.  There are
           a couple of china mutual funds like MCHFX, but they have
           not been performing as well as the Pacific ex-Japan funds,
           which benefit from China's growth but do not have the
           drawbacks of investing directly in China's companies
        \_ I'd recommend Vanguard's Emerging Markets Stock Index Fund.  As of
           March, the top five countries in its holdings by percentage were:
           Korea:               20.2%
           Taiwan:              14.8%
           South Africa:        11.5%
           Brazil:              11.0%
           China:                8.4%
           Thus, taken together, China and Taiwan represent over 1/5 of the
           entire fund's holdings. -dans
2005/5/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:37497 Activity:nil 52%like:37467
5/3     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4507681.stm
        1626 : "24 bibelots pour Manhattan"
        2005 : "2 pandas vraiment mignons pour Taiwan"le
        \_ sont eux les carottes agricoles d'offre à Taiwan parce que
           many des fermiers de Taiwan sont-ils les défenseurs de Chen ?
2005/5/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:37496 Activity:nil
5/3     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7693580/site/newsweek/concensus de
        "Pékin" : La Chine out-maneuvering politiquement etles USA
        diplomatically déplacés.le démuni japonais de
        \_ "s'est comporté parfaitement, mais ils ont fait des excusestemps
           several pour leur agression de temps de guerre."le
           Also, ma lecture de l'article est que, politiquement, la Chine a
           been maladroit.
           Saying ils sont meilleurs que Dubya n'indique pas beaucoup.
2005/5/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:37472 Activity:nil
5/3     http, dig dis://<DEAD>www.msnbc.msn<DEAD>  'S coo', http://bro.com/id/7693580/site/newsweek/consenso
        "Beijin'": China out-maneuverin' político ylos E.E.U.U.
        diplomatically ineptos.japoneses del
        \_ los "no se han compo'tado puh'fectamente, sino que se han
           several para su agresión del tiempo de guerra.  Sheeeiit."el
           Also, mi lectura del artículo es que, político, China tiene
           been to'pe.  What it is, Mama!
           Sayin' son mejo'es que Dubya no está diciendo mucho.
2005/5/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Uncategorized/German] UID:37469 Activity:high
5/3     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7693580/site/newsweek
        "Beijing Concensus": China out-maneuvering politically and
        diplomatically inept Bush-led US.       - Chicom Troll
        \_ "Japanese have not behaved perfectly, but they have apologized
           several times for their wartime aggression."
           Also, my reading of the article is that, politically, China has
           been clumsy, or at least, average.
           been clumsy.
           Saying they're better than Dubya isn't saying much.
           \_ Alright. Not to agree with chicom troll, but I have to.  Sure,
              China is acting politically, and certainly the great leap
              forward killed more Chinese than the Japanese did.  Neither of
              those negate the virtue or lack thereof of Japan's actions.
              Again, I ask you[motd], what would the reaction be if Germany
              changed their textbooks to play down the atrocities committed
              during WW2? What would the reaction be if the German president
              visited and paid his respects to national cemeteries where Nazi
              commanders were buried? -nivra
           \_ this kind of statement really angers me.  Japan never
              issue formal apology in writing.  Japan, as a government,
              never address the issues such as "comfort women."  Company
              profited from the war, and active participation of war crimes
              never set up a trust fund for its behavior. And, more
              importantly, much of Chinese national treasure were taken
              by Japan Imperial Army and never gotten returned.  Much of
              these treasure are sitting in Tokyo's Imperial Palace today.
              Chinese wanted to search the Imperial Palace but it was denied
              by American.  If Japan is not interested in the seat in the
              security consoul in UN, Japan would NEVER issue some of those
              half-hearted apologies at first place.
              Then again, Japan could never get away with any of these crime
              without American's backing.  (Unit 731, and its largest
              biological / chemical warfare in history of mankind... example)
              Most Chinese don't realize that half of the blame lies upon
              USA
              \_ So where's all your righteous indignation over the atrocities
                 committed against the Chinese people by the Chinese communist
                 government?  Unlike the pre-war Japanese government, those
                 bastards actually still have power.  Does that really not
                 bother you?
                 \_ Separate issues, the Japanese really should just issue a
                    written apology and get it over with.  That said, the
                    whole "IT USA FAULT!" thing is horseshit, and you might
                    ask where the Chinese apologies for illegal intervention
                    against 3 sovereign countries (S. Korea, Tibet, Vietnam)
                    are... -John
                 \_ sollten unterschiedliche Ausgaben, der Japaner eine
                    schriftliche Entschuldigung wirklich gerade herausgeben
                    und sie mit rüber erhalten. Das sagte, das Ganze ", das
                    ES, BEMÄNGELN USA!" Sache ist horseshit und Sie konnten
                    fragen, wo die chinesischen Entschuldigungen für ungültige
                    Intervention gegen 3 souveräne Länder (S. Korea, Tibet,
                    Vietnam) sind... - John
                 \_ sollten unterschiedliche Ausgaben, der Japaner
                    eine schriftliche Entschuldigung wirklich gerade
                    herausgeben und sie mit rüber erhalten. Das
                    sagte, das Ganze ", das ES, BEMÃNGELN USA!" Sache
                    ist Pferd ScheiÃe und Sie konnten fragen, wo die
                    chinesischen Entschuldigungen für ungültige
                    Intervention gegen 3 souveräne Länder (S.
                    herausgeben und sie mit rM-CM-<ber erhalten. Das
                    sagte, das Ganze ", das ES, BEMM-CNGELN USA!" Sache
                    ist Pferd ScheiM-Ce und Sie konnten fragen, wo die
                    chinesischen Entschuldigungen fM-CM-<r ungM-CM-<ltige
                    Intervention gegen 3 souverM-CM-$ne LM-CM-$nder (S.
                    Korea, Tibet, Vietnam) sind... - John
                    [restored.  i have no problem with transcoding John to
                    german, but please fix the formatting.]
                    \_ If you have a chance, do some home work.  Find out
                        why Japanese Emperor was never being tried in the
                        numerberg trial.  I bought up Unit 731, something
                        that is totally googable if you actually give
                        a shit about those yellow skin's lives.  You
                        just might find that American let those who
                        conducted the largest chemical/biological warfare
                        in history of man kind gotten away with their
                        crime in exchange for those experimental data
                        obtained by using live human subjects so USA can
                        design better chemical/biological weapons themselves.
                        and... Tibet is not a sovereign nation since late
                        17th century. If you dont' care about this subject,
                        then, don't bother have an opinion on it.  If you
                        do, then, do your homework before calling things
                        "horse shit" and make fools of yourself.
                        \_ Nice post nuke.  Oh by the way, did I say you're
                           an idiot?  -John
                        \_ No, really kngharv.  Why are you pretending to
                           be Chinese?
                           be Chinese? -jrleek
                           \_ do mormons all act the same way?
                                \_ Further proof that mormons are ______
                           \_ Take a look at this, retard:
                              http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~tking
                        \_ How does a guy named "Harvey H. King" come
                           to have such bad english?
                              \_ She sure looks like MLK's daughter.
                              \_ I am lost, what does this have to do with
                                 anything?
                                 \_ Proving to me that King is a chinese
                                    name.  Apparently kngharv really is
                                    Chinese.  He's still full of crap, but
                                    at least he's a legitimate chicom
                                    troll.
                                    \_ Uhm. Tsu-Jae is Korean.
                                    \_ Sigh.  That one King is Asian doesn't
                                       prove that all Kings are Asian.  I guess
                                       they don't teach logic at Cal anymore.
                                       \_ That's true, but I also googled
                                          him.
                              \_ Whoah, cool. I thought kngharv looked liked
                                 a Eastern European name but I was wrong.
              \_ Go Chicom!
2005/4/28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:37393 Activity:kinda low
4/28    "In FY04 the U. S. Government spent $322 Billion of your money on
         interest payments* to the holders of the National Debt. Compare that
         to NASA at $15 Billion, Education at $61 Billion, and Department of
         Transportation at $56 Billion."
        So who are the "holders of the National Debt."? Bankers?
        http://www.federalbudget.com
        \_ Central banks of other countries (Japan, China, ...)?
            \_ What is the interest rate? I mean, it sounds to me like it's
               worth investing your money at banks that lend to U.S.
               \_ Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money!
               \_ Not very high interest.  I think new T-bills are around 4.3%.
               \_ one of the lowest you can get. but sure it is a lot safer
                  to finance the US govt. as opposed that of some other country
                  like Argentina..
        \_ And how much more was borrowed, leading to larger interest payments
           the next year?  Isn't borrowing to pay for your interest a sign
           that you're on the verge of bankruptcy?
           \_ no.
        \_ Heh, the US should declare bankruptcy and be absolved of all debt.
        \_ Read "Interface" by Neal Stephenson
         \_ Well by a pen name.  And that book really feels like it is missing
            about 100 pages in the middle.
2005/4/22-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:37322 Activity:very high
4/22    I haven't read much on the news, what do the Koreans think about
        the current situation between China and Japan?
        \_ Aren't they mad about that book that got approved that took out
           references to comfort women?
        \_ The Koreans are pretty mad about the books as well, but they
          haven't attacked anything Japanese over it.  (2 people cut off
          fingers and one guy lit himself on fire)  The protests over
          comfort women in front of the Japanese embassy are practically
          standard by now.  The Koreans are also mad because one of the
          new text books claims Dokdo, a tiny pair of Korean held
          islands, is illegally occupied by the Koreans. -jrleek
          \_ Wow, there's still arguments over that island?  I remember
             learning about it when I was a kid.  Koreans actually have a song
             that proclaims how Dokdo belongs to Korea.
             \_ Yeah.  My wife can sing that song. "Dokdo-nun oori ddang!"
                I reserve judgement a bit, because I've never heard the
                Japanese side of the story, but my understanding is that
                the only time the Japanese ever controlled the island was
                1905-1945.  Since Korea was occupied by Japan in 1906, I
                don't really think that counts. -jrleek
           \_ This is pretty correct, but those who cut off their fingers did
              so because of Dokdo, not because of the history books.  Also,
              I think there's generally a lot more anger in China and Korea
              than over just the issue of sex slavery; there were a whole slew
              of war atrocities commited by imperialist Japan--sex slavery
              simply appears to be either the only one well vocalized or the
              only one covered by the media.
              \_ You're right, although I kinda see those as related since
                 a lot of the Dokdo hubbub is over the textbooks, but
                 there's also "Takeshima Day" which pissed off a lot of
                 Koreans.  As for the comfort women, I think they get
                 covered the most because some of them are still alive
                 (80, I think) and actively protesting.  Most war
                 atrocities result in dead people. Dead people are very
                 poor at active protesting. -jrleek
        \_ My personal opinion is that the best way to resolve the
           situation would be for Japan to revise it's text books, and for
           China to pay for the repairs to the Japanese embassy.  I don't
           really think Japan has to continue to atone for it's past sins,
           but it shouldn't try to deny them either.  However, by allowing
           it's citizens to riot and damage the Japanese embassy, China
           was in direct violation of it's signed treaties. -jrleek
           \_ The problem is that 1) The "honor" thing is very important in
              Japanese culture than in mordern Chinese and western cultures
           \_ The problem is that 1) The "honor" thing is more important in
           \_ FYI it's "its" not "it's" in the context you're using it.
           \_ The problems are that 1) The "honor" thing is more important in
              Japanese culture than in mordern Chinese and western culture
              (don't know about Korean), 2) The monarchy is a continuation of
              the one in the past.  So it's very hard to make Japan admin they
              were evil.
              \_ 3) Is Chinese your first language?
                 \_ Yes.  Your point?
                    \_ Perhaps your opinion might be biased?  In any case,
                       you stereotype of the Japanese is unfortunate.
                       \_ But in this situation probably pretty accurate, at
                          least  relating to this situation.  Putting aside
                          the whole Yasukuni thing (as there's at least _some_
                          point to it),  what other reasons could you think
                          of for Japanese schools not wanting to adopt a text-
                          book which owns up to prettty hideous war crimes?
                          (and don't start with "the-US-did-this, the-other-
                          colonial-powers-did-that, there's (a) an order of
                          magnitude of difference, and (b) most western
                          countries have or are coming around to admitting
                          having caused some bad shit.  I'm not saying the
                          Chinese approach is anything less than reprehensibly
                          opportunistic, but there's sure a lot of potential
                          for Japan to take the moral high ground.  -John
                          \_ So how do the Germans deal with their history
                             textbook issues?  How is WWII presented in
                             German schools?
                             \_ "We really really fucked up and did lots of
                                bad shit and we have to make sure that it
                                never happens again".  Although the situation
                                with them is a bit different, as the Japanese
                                committed widespread wanton brutality, not
                                really genocide per se.  And yes there is a
                                lot of resistance to the constant guilt thing
                                in Germany.  -John
                    \_ BTW, your English could still use a bit of work.
           \_ When this thing is eventually settled, China WILL pay
              for the damage to Japanese properties. Whether Japan
              will alter the text book or not, it remains to be see
              (highly unlikely).
              \_ nah, I doubt China will pay a cent.
                 \_ what are you willing to bet? -chiry
                 \_ Didn't the Chinese govt pay for the damaged US embassy?
                    Of course, that doesn't compare to the laser guided
                    bomb that landed on the Chinese embassy.
                    \_ They need to pay for that bomb.
                    \_ yea, but US is scary country.  PRC always try
                       to avoid conflict with US.  Also, US didn't
                       murder millions of Chinese civilians, or use
                       them for medical experiments.
                       \_ No, the PRC has done enough of this themselves.
                          Also, see recent stories on Uighurs.
                          \_ Ask people in PRC, and they will say GLP
                             and GPCR sucked.  They will also say the
                             last quarter century of economic reform
                             and prosperity was good.  What's your
                             point?
                             \_ That the PRC is manipulating medium-grade
                                anger over a text-book written by Right
                                Wingers in a foreign country to push for
                                greater bargaining power over oil fields in
                                ambiguously owned waters while continuing to
                                stifle any criticism of the PRC's own
                                atrocities, some of which are ongoing.
                                Physician, heal thyself.
                                \_ err ... I think everyone knows that
                                   already.
        \_ on a related note, 100 youngsters (in their 20s) came to the
           street of tokyo protesting against the textbook.  (from hk
           newspaper)
           \_ Native students or Chinese?
              \_ natives plus foreigners from around the earth.
2005/4/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37315 Activity:kinda low
4/22    China is not playing by the rule?  how about USA?
        http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3905158
        \_ Bad Chicom troll.
        \_ We're not.  Unfair subsidies, trade barriers, etc.  But we're
           a lot lot lot less worse.  Bad Chicom troll.  -John
           \_ The content of the url does not match well the title given by
              op, but come on, this is the motd.  The article's point is made
              across when the like of John say "We're not" "bad chicom troll"
              without even attempting to make an argument.  Of course Americans
              have the right to be self-righteous, just like citizens of any
              country.  But self-righteousness alone rarely lead to progress.
              The mental picture of Chinese government being a superefficient
              evil planner scheming to undercut fair American market prices
              through currency manipulation and subsidy is a figment of idiotic
              imagination.  The government doesn't decide the price and and
              exercise little control over the amount of export.  Subsidy
              is small.  Very very few Chinese companies directly export to
              the US market.  The low prices are dictated on them by large
              US companies like walmart. I have Chinese acquaintances in export
              who are desperate to hike the price but cannot, because they have
              no leverage against the American middleman.  For various reasons,
              they cannot bypass the later and enter US market directly.
              \_ OK I'll use complete sentences, since you seem to have had
                 a liberal helping of thicko juice for breakfast:  The op's
                 trollish argument is nonsense.  Although he has a point that
                 the US violates a lot of international trade treaty rules,
                 through mechanisms such as subsidies and unfair tariffs, what
                 we do by no means even starts to match up against Chinese
                 continued refusal to float currency, functional restrictions
                 on FDI, hideous labor practices and, and engaging in legally
                 "bad" stuff such as industrial espionage and completely
                 disregarding IP rights (talk to any westerner who's ever
                 opened a factory/plant/office in China to see what I mean.)
                 You may now go on trolling about "oh n0es, poor China)  -John
2005/4/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:37298 Activity:high
4/21    Buh, duh, huh?
        http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1559253,00.html
        France Backs China on Taiwan
        \_ The French gov't makes me feel icky.
           \-C HITCHENS had a great comment about J CHIRAC:
             "a man, like the banker in Flaubert's Sentimental Education,
             'so corrupt that he would willingly pay for the pleasure of
             selling himself".'
             --psb
        \_ It's wrong for France to back the Anti-Secession Law, especially
           when France is going against the countervailing current of world
           opinion that the law was unnecessary and increased tensions.
           As for the EU trying to convince the U.S. that it's okay for them
           to sell arms to China, the argument is:
           Russia is selling them the h07 sh17 w34P0N5 tech, so why aren't you
           blaming them?
           Then again, two wrongs don't make a right, so I consider the EU
           selling advanced arms to China as also wrong.
           \_ The US has been selling weapons to the world's worst people
              for a generation. It is amazingly hypocritical for us to
              complain about the EU doing the same thing.
              \_ Which country is not hypocritical?  France and other European
                 countries had been colonizing much of the world.  China
                 annexed Tibet and Xinjiang hundreds of years ago.  Taiwan
                 (the Nationalists) were oppressing the native Taiwanese
                 decades ago.
                 \_ So the French are simply following in their own best
                    self interest, instead of doing what we want them to
                    do. Is that your complaint? Especially after all the
                    cheese-eating surrender monkey crap, they probably feel
                    like we are not really an ally anymore. What a surprise.
                 \_ The term Taiwanese, used by the pro-independence groups,
                    actually refers to Chinese who settled there before
                    Japan annexed Taiwan, rather than the aborigines, whom
                    the pro-independence groups want to wipe out.  But it
                    was a very clever invention perfect for eliciting knee
                    jerk "Taiwan belongs to Taiwanese" slogan.
           \_  Before the law was passed, Taiwan's defense minister proposed
               arming missles with chemical weapons and its legistators boasted
               developing nukes.  That stopped after the law is passed. Seems
               like a good law.
           \_ increased tensions, yes, but why is the law unnecessary?
              \_ China doesn't need a law passed by the People's Congress
                 saying they can invade to invade.
                 \_ With a maturing government, China is becoming more reliant
                    on legal codes and protcol than short term political whim.
                    Every country goes through different periods.  Dont' forget
                    until < 100 years ago CA was the WWW and "the law" was a
                    joke.
        \_ This url goes to a pair of enormous floppy breasts.
           \_ And the above posters are just bots who react to the word China
              the way I have programmed them.
           \_ Fixed.
2005/4/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37184 Activity:low
4/13    More biased journalism against our glorious workers'^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
        capitalist paradise!  We do not repress our own population!  We do
        not arrest journalists!   Everyone is happy in China, and we hold
        spontaneous group sing-alongss to celebrate our good fortune and
        our beneficient leaders!  This is nothing but Western propaganda!
        "Rural Chinese Riot as Police Try to Halt Pollution Protest"
        http://csua.org/u/bot
        \_ I can only imagine how hellish the country side is given that I
           almost threw up just sitting in traffic in Shanghai.  The vehicle
           fumes were terrible and this was only in January.  We visited a
           rural tourist area and I'm sure it's pretty good by rural
           standards, but the people there still looked pretty damn desperate.
        \_ Yes Chinese media are still under wide censorship though state media
           for years have been reporting on corruption, pollution and other
           problems, often bravely testing, sneaking around, and pushing open
           orthodox limitations; yes freedom to assembly in China is still an
           illusory dream although demonstrations are becoming quite common.
           If you think censorship is wrong, I fully agree with you.  I also
           think it is a shame that most western journalists so readily succumb
           to the worship of ego, money, power and their own tunnel vision,
           when in theory they are so far from real peril or hardship.
           But if you are just bearing a grudge because your own dirty laundry
           is being aired, you deserve to live in North Korea.  And if all the
           junk news you are fed with causes you think mainland China today is
           a rigid society where everybody dance in unison everyday to one dear
           leader, your closed mind is just wasting away.
           \_ No!  There is no censorship!  There is no corruption!  We are
              free to assemble!  And we burst out in song to sing praises of
              the party (in scenes oddly reminiscent of a '50s musical)!  You
              have been systematically misinformed by your biased Western
              media that put a negative spin on everything about China!
              \_ Woah! It's llorTmocihC!
2005/4/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37173 Activity:high
4/13    What an extremely misleading title.
        "China Accuses Japan of Distorting History"
        http://tinyurl.com/5l7yt (yahoo news).
        \_ China bashing at its best, wow.
        \_ What is the author trying to say?  That the collective Chinese
           people should not protest against Japan because of Chinese govt's
           wrongdoing?  Sure, Chinese govt has its share of wrongdoing in other
           areas, and for that let the Indians and Vietnamese and the Hong Kong
           people protest against it.  But that doesn't mean the Chinese people
           shouldn't protest against Japanese govt and people.  It's one thing
           when people in an oppressive country are forced to agree with its
           govt's wrongdoing, but it's another thing when people in a
           democratic country agree with its govt's wrongdoing.
           \_ What if you're a Chinese citizen and you want to protest jailings
              of pro-Democracy students or protest the Tiananmen Square
              massacre?
              \_ As with any country, you can only protest what the
                 government allows you to protest. Try protest to
                 overthrow the current government, as in "form armed
                 militia" like the original constitution allows. See
                 what the US government will do.
                 \_ It's good to be a member of the People's Congress!
                    \_ It's better to be the Speaker of the House.
              \_ Then I'll go to jail.  Yes, the Chinese govt is hypocritic (in
                 that it does it share of histroy distortion and in that its
                 people's "constituional right to protest" only applies to
                 protests that it favors) and this is its wrongdoing.  But like
                 I said above, the Chinese govt's wrongdoing does not
                 un-justify the Chinese people's protest.
2005/4/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37161 Activity:high
4/12    HAHAHA! HA...heehehe...ahem...
        http://csua.org/u/bo3 (engrish.com)
        \_ boy, that's funny.  I'm sure your Chinese is much better.  -tom
           \_ http://www.engrish.com rules so much happy toilet joy for someone
           \_ What does this have to do with Chinese? -- dumber than tom
              \_ Nothing at all. In fact, I'm not sure tom posted that since he
                 usually has more clue. http://engrish.com is a great place for
                 something that everyone I know who has been to Japan for more
                 than a couple of days appreciates. We used to compete for who
                 could find the pencil boxes with the most bizarre phrasing.
                 No where is erikred when we need him? Incidentally, if you
                 want a good cultural parallel, try what Americans do with
                 Chinese/Japanese characters - particularly as tattoos.
                 -- ulysses
                 \_ http://www.hanzismatter.com
        \_ There's also the menu with "Fried Crap with Spicy Sauce" and the
           "Thundercrap" brand fireworks...
        \_ It's very easy for a Japanese to confuse "L" with "R", since both
           sounds "map" to the same sound in Japanese.  This excuse doesn't
           apply to Chinese.
           \_ Some Chinese also cannot pronounce "L".  My friend from Taiwan
              went to a place called SuFa for some kind of Christian program.
              Took me a while to figure out she was referring to "Sioux Falls"
              \_ that's something different: not being able to end a word
                 with a consonant. not quite the same as mixing up L/R
                 sounds.  in Thailand, you get both of these problems plus
                 a difficulty with adjacent consonents. "central" for example
                 is pronounced cen-tun because the "tr" is too hard and
                 Thai words can end on "n" but never on "l". for Thai, and
                 I think Chinese, much of the meaning is communicated in
                 the vowels and tones, and the consonents are almost
                 superfluous. the listener can sort out mistakes and noise
                 in consonants better than vowels, and people get sloppy
                 with consonants because of this.
2005/4/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:37134 Activity:high
4/10    So, I'm hearing all this crap about social security becoming insolvent
        because we won't have enough taxpayers to support the baby boomers.
        What I haven't heard anything about is, why not allow more *skilled*
        immigrants into the country? Why not allow people educated here to
        stay in the country? We spend all this money on educating these
        foreign nationals, and then make them leave, even if they'd like to
        stay. Allowing them to stay would obviously make for more taxpayers,
        more consumer demand, etc. And it's not really like we don't have
        the land; Japan can cram well over half the population of the US into
        a space smaller than California. The drawback is of course national
        security "concerns", and the notion that foreigners will be competing
        for our jobs. What do you people think?
        \_ The US's prosperity was built largely on brain drain from
           foreign countries with poorer conditions than here.  Hindering
           the brain drain in the name of national security is going to
           bite us in the ass bigtime.  Having poor schools in this country
           is going to bite us in the ass bigtime too.  It's a pity we
           have to suffer through cowardly leaders who only care about
           short term gain.
           \_ Nice sentiment, but where did the obsession with ass-biting
              get mixed into this?
           \_ The US's ability to brain drain will probably be more
              impacted by effective competition from foreign schools.
              We'll probably still have the top schools, but the top 100
              schools won't be 90% in the US.
        \_ The U.S. taxpayer just finished spending a quarter of a million
           dollars to pay for my Mainland Chinese friend's phd in solid state
           physics.  Due
           to laws that almost redefine the phrase "government idiocy" she
           may be unable to work in this country where we can benefit from
           her education because all of "nanotechnology" has been declared
           sensitive, and everyone in solid state physics wants to call their
           work nanotech to get on the funding gravy train.  Dumb dumb dumb.
           I don't know the details of the ban, but it extends to the private
           sector.  "Sorry, you can't contribute to our economy.  We're just
           going to spend a quarter of a million dollars training you, then
           force you to go back home and compete with us economically."
        \_ you should consult a mental health professional
           \_ Well, thanks for that ad hominem attack. BTW, I'm actually
              born in the states, and this is not a troll. It is
              practically a certainty at this point that our population will
              not grow fast enough to support the boomers. It seems like the
              obvious way to grow the population is to bring in other people,
              very preferably ones who can contribute to our economy instead
              of ending up on welfare.
        \_ I have an idea that will help: ban abortion.
           \_ See the welfare argument.
        \_ It is my opinion that lots of skilled immigrants are already
           ending up here. They are indeed taking jobs from Americans,
           because they are willing to work for less. I fail to see how
           this benefits the country. Do you really want to import doctors
           from former Soviet Republics, like Spain is doing?
           \_ Well, it is not clear if their presence here creates more jobs
              than they take. Do dumb hicks contribute much to our economy?
              In one sense, yes, since they fuel consumer demand by living
              beyond their means. In another sense, no, because they're stupid
              and don't increase our competitiveness. I'm not saying it should
              be a free-for-all, or that foreign nationals should be allowed
              in all fields, especially when we are not sure what their
              education is relative to the standards in this country. But
              especially for foreigners who got college or graduate degrees
              in this country, not allowing them to stay seems rather silly.
              After all, you can say that they deprived some US citizen of a
              spot at whatever school they went to, so what's the big deal now?
              \_ Is there evidence that lots of people who earned graduate
                 degrees here are not able to stay? Observationally, I
                 don't see that problem in the fields I am familiar with
                 (aerospace engineering, software engineering, hard
                 science, and entertainment).
                 \_ Yes.  Please read my post about Chinese physicists in the
                    U.S. above.  Admittedly, my evidence is also anecdotal, but
                    since most of the people I know are physics grad students,
                    and since about half of them are foreign, I think my
                    anecdotal evidence is relevant.  What I see is unthinking
                    visa policy directly harming American science.  It's not
                    that the *numbers* of foreign scientists wanting to be
                    in the U.S. will go down any time soon, it's that the
                    *quality* is going to start going down as the top people
                    pass up U.S. offers. -!pp
                    \_ Why does quality matter in terms of Social Security?
                       The reality is that there are more PhDs being graduated
                       than there are jobs to employ them.
                       \_ Fuck social security.  The republicans are going
                          to destroy it anyway.  I was just talking about
                          issues affecting American science in general.
                       \_ It might not per se, but the point is we would
                          probably rather have immigrants quality enough to
                          stay off welfare, and better yet, contribute to
                          innovation.
                 \_ It's difficult to stay these days.  You need a H-1B to
                    work in the US, and these get used up in less than
                    a day everytime new quotas become available (in April
                    and October).  From a company's standpoint, that's
                    a lot of uncertainty and cost for hiring a foreign
                    student graduate from US universities.  The whole
                    PR process is also a huge pain and takes forever.
                    \_ It's difficult to hire foreign nationals. On the
                       other hand, plenty of them seem to be getting jobs.
                       Some of them marry Americans, but I have seen no
                       shortage of PhDs from India, China, and Europe working
                       here in the US. In fact, I see more than ever before.
                       Some real statistics and less anecdotal evidence would
                       be nice.
                        \_ It's not just difficult to hire, it's also a
                           pain to stay, so might as well go home,
                           especially given the opportunities abroad.
                           \_ There are no opportunities abroad. Maybe in
                              China. Definitely not in Europe, for
                              instance. I'd like to see some statistics.
                              \_ actually there are lots of opportunities
                                 abroad.  china, india, hongkong, singapore,
                                 taiwan, korea, japan, ...
                                 \_ Japan is okay, but are there really
                                    that many opportunities for, say,
                                    physicists in India or Singapore?
        \_ I grow tired of seeing these posts about how we, as a US
           economy keep getting hurt by offshore jobs, brain drain, etc.
           All the posts seem very Nationalistic and people fail to take into
           account the big picture, we are a global economy.  That person
           who leaves with a Physics degree eventually may invent
           something in China that benefits someone in the US and
           globally.  You can always go micro and say "Contra Costa is losing
           jobs to San Fran", but eventually we all benefit from knowledgeable
           people no matter what tax bucket their income falls in.
           \_ Are you the "Little Chinese"?
2005/4/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37024 Activity:nil
3/31    Hey small Chinese guy.  Did you know you could add 5 inches in one
        year for only $6K? (of height, not length)  http://csua.org/u/bjo
2005/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37004 Activity:low
3/31    Looking for a decent (and preferable free/cheap) English to Chinese
        and Chinese to English translation program. A while ago I saw this guy
        moving his mouse to select CNN articles, right click on something and
        a pop-up comes up with full translation. That guy is gone and now
        I'm wondering what he uses, and if it's free. Thanks.
        \_ http://babelfish.altavista.com
        \_ http://www.google.com/language_tools
2005/3/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:36887 Activity:high
3/25    Is Ping an Asian last name?
        \_ No.  But it is a common Chinese first name. -emarkp
           \-YMWTS: The Story of Ping --psb
             \_ Do you mean "The Story About Ping"?  Read an old beat-up copy
                when I was a child.  Have a nice new copy that I read to my
                kids. -emarkp
                \- I mean the "insightful and intuitive explanation of one of
                   Unix's most venerable networking utilities ... The book
                   describes networking in terms even a child could understand,
                   choosing to anthropomorphize the underlying packet struc-
                   ture." --psb
                   \_ Yes I found http://yyz.us/ping.shtml  Same book. -emarkp
        \_ Yes, it is one of the 100 Chinese last names.
           http://www.chinapage.com/biography/lastname.html , 6 rows down,                 2nd from the right.
           http://www.chinapage.com/biography/lastname.html
           6 rows down, 2nd from the right.
           \_ So is there a Chinese man named Pong Ping?
              \- No, but there are 500k Chinese names Lo Fat, and sloda
                 has its own Hi Fat Pet.
2005/3/22-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:36814 Activity:nil
3/22    Interesting. China can put a man in orbit but needs to buy night
        vision goggles from EU?
        \_ Who said they *NEED* to?  Maybe the EU sells better ones and China
           hasn't gotten around to ripping off their technology yet.
        \_ The US put a man in orbit 50 years ago. When were night vision
           goggles invented?
        \_ China wants to buy offensive weaponry from the EU, e.g., the
           Tiger attack helo, being built by a joint French-German-Spanish
           venture.  80% of the airframe will be constructed of lightweight
           composite materials.  First deliveries are this year with 80 for
           France and 80 for Germany.
        \_ We can put a man on the moon, and we need to buy computers from
           China.
        \_ We invented the Internet, and we download Japanese pr0n.
        \_ Regardless of whether China really needs the night vision goggles
           and other European-made weapons (they have been buying pretty much
           anything they want from Russia throughout the last 10 years), the
           lift of the European weapons sales ban would certainly be a very
           significant political victory for PRC.
2005/3/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Networking] UID:36813 Activity:nil
3/22    Chinese Wifi:  http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000510037092
2005/3/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36589 Activity:nil
3/8     Curious, did UK ever pass an anti-independence bill back in 1700's?
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4331443.stm
2005/3/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36513 Activity:moderate
3/3     The top post is awesome
        http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog
        \_ Well, now it's the second post.
           \_ I see more posts dated today than I'm willing to read on a
              Shithead(tm) site.  Please identify exactly which post you
              think is "awesome."
              \_ I'm betting this one: http://tinyurl.com/5bpuc
2005/2/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Languages] UID:36407 Activity:high
2/24    How do people who use a pen to write in Arabic and Hebrew avoid
        smudging the letters as they write?  This seems like a design flaw.
        \_ I'm left handed and manage English just fine. Although when learning
           Persian (also right to left), I did like the fact that there was
           less smear potential.
           \_ I'm amazed that my totally random post was replied to by a
              lefty who's studied Persian.  Go motd!
              \_ Yeah.  Sometimes I think we need to step back and truly
                 appreciate the utility of the motd.
        \_ When I was little I would end up with the side of my hand totally
           filthy with graphite.  Now I don't have problems except with
           particularly slow drying ink. Now that I think about it, my hand
           position when writing looks a little contorted compared to most
           peoples'.  So I guess that's how I avoid smudging.  -lefty
        \_ I don't have preferences in terms of right or left hands.  So,
           when I start to learn how to write Chinese, I choose to write with
           left hand for this particular reason.
           \_ Does your handwriting look different from right-handed people's?
              My brother's starting to write Chinese, and he keeps complaining
              that the characters don't look right when he writes them with his
              left (preferred) hand.
           \_ huh?  I thought Chinese is written left to right in PRC,
              and it's top to bottom, then right to left, (so you get
              more drying time) in Taiwan.  Even people in Taiwan
              go left to right when writing in horizontal rows as
              opposed to traditional vertical rows.  In fact, I have
              a friend who is a lefty but writes Chinese with right
              hand, because Chinese is more easily written with right
              hand, as each character is written diagonally from top
              left corner to bottom right corner.
              \_ Pick up any Chinese book, and it's top to bottom, right to
                 left.  That's why the cover page is on the bottom of the
                 book or the binding to the right, depending on your
                 perspective.  And, yes, smudging was an issue when I learned
                 to write with the brush (or whatever it's called in English).
                 Though caligraphy was done on a very porous and therefore
                 quick-absorbing paper, and that ameliorates the problem
                 somwhat.
                 \_ In calligraphy, isn't your hand and arm not supposed
                    to be resting on the paper irregardless?
                    \_ Yep.  The correct way to hold the pen has your hand
                       and wrist elevated above the paper.  However, one still
                       has to account for jacket sleeves or just incorrect
                       posture.
              \_ Chinese has been traditionally written top to bottom then
                 right to left for thousands of years.  It was the PRC who
                 imported English-style writing to Chinese, together with
                 English characters for phonetics.  Taiwan sticks with the
                 the traditional way of writing and phonetics.
                 the traditional way of writing and phonetics.  -- Hong Kong
                 Chinese
                 \_ I am aware of that.  I don't mind top to bottom but
                    why right to left (column wise)?  It's inconsistent
                    with the top-left to bottom-right manner where
                    each character is written.  - tainan taiwanese
                    \_ Good point.  I have no idea.  -- Hong Kong Chinese
           \_ THERE ARE NO LEFT HANDED CHINESE.
              \_ Haven't you seen when the 1.2 billion people in PRC clap their
                 hands, they clap their left hands over their right hands?
                 They are all left handed.  -- troll
              \_ Well, traditionally, left-handed kids are "trained" out of
                 their tendency to use their left hand.  After all, the left
                 hand is the hand sinister.
2005/2/17 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:36215 Activity:high
2/17    "As Girls 'Vanish', Chinese City Battles Tide of Abortions"
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/17/international/asia/17china.html?hp
        Whatever happened to a woman's right to choose?  Why aren't we all
        up in arms about this?
        \_ Chiense police come to beat the shit out of you right now!!!11
        \_ Just wait till their son grows up and tries to find a
           woman. Ignorance is best paid this way.
           \_ Only if he joins the CSUA.
           \_ You don't need to wait.  This is already a problem at present.
        \_ S. Korea the same problem, although not nearly so severe, since
           you can still have as many babies as you want there.  They
           outlawed doctors telling the sex of the baby to parents before
           birth completely.  This seems to have improved things.  The
           current birth rates are more or less back to normal, although
           the 20 year olds are out of wack.  It also meant that my wife
           really wanted to know the sex of our daughter before she was
           born just because she couldn't if she was in Korea. -jrleek
           \_ So, what sex _was_ your daughter?
           \_ same for Taiwan, and India.  The problem should slowly
              go away as a country industrializes.
              \_ The answer is technology. If you could offer couples to
                 chose any baby's sex, FOR FREE (subsidized by the gov),
                 would this problem still exist?
                 \_ huh?  most of them would choose "male" at this
                    point in time, which would be a problem.
                    A simple solution would be to offer some artificial
                    incentive for giving birth to baby girls, such as
                    say $3000 bucks.
                    say $3000 bucks.  I don't understand why China
                    doesn't do something like that.
                    \_ 40 million unmarried men = nice "peoples" army
                       \_ coming to beat the shit out of you RIGHT NOW@%5!1
                       \_ All coming to steal our women...
                          \_ SERVES YOU WHITE MEN RIGHT! -Hoyt Sze
                    \_ In a way, that kinda sounds like slavery.
2005/2/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:36207 Activity:kinda low
2/16    Do TVs and VCRs in China use NTSC format?  If I record a tape with my
        VCR here, can someone in China watch it?  Thanks.
        \_ A lot of VCRs there are dual format. Most likely they will be able
           to watch it.
        \_ nobody here has VCRs.  Only DVD and VCD players.
           \_ I have 2, shut the fuck up. -!op
           \_ I have betamax!
2005/1/31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:36001 Activity:kinda low
1/31    Curious: what do you think the percentages are for Cal's Chinese
        student population, in terms of mainland PRC vs. Taiwan vs. ABC?
        \_ Don't forget Hong Kong.
           \_ HKG is PRC.
              \_ nah, they are culturally different, and unique enough
                 to have their own category. and don't forget us sporeans
                 and other se asian chinese.
                 \_ And, say, Shanghai or Shenzen (sp?) aren't culturally
                    different from each other or from the rest of China?
                    When I fill out official documents, I use "HKG, CHN",
                    not "HKG, HKG".
                    \_ Shanghai and Shenzen are culturally different, but not
                       as different as Shanghai and HK or Shenzen and HK.
                       \_ I think you forget that PRC is agrarian and third
                          world outside the special economic zones.
                          diff(non-SEZ CHN, Shanghai) >> diff(HKG, Shanghai).
2005/1/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35941 Activity:very high
1/27    ilyas, as a libertarian (ie fuck government, help thyself)
        what do you think about the Chinese culture? For many centuries,
        the Chinese culture has had internal problems which it dealt
        with via means other than government solutions. For example,
        the core of the Chinese culture is a family, where one
        gets financial support (family=business) as well as retirement
        plans (parents always live in the same household), food
        (family cooks/eats same food together), etc. This is a cycle
        of course, where young men know that they have to be a
        productive members of society so that they could raise good
        families so that their children would take care of them in the
        future.
        \_ Let me ask you this, what do Chinese people think about their
           history and culture (the totalitarian/collectivist, or if you
           prefer a more positive word, communal bits)? -- ilyas
           \_ I am not sure I agree that "collectivist" and "communal"
              should be applied to Chinese history and culture,
              at least not until the founding of the PRC.  Where did
              you get the idea?
              \_ I think there are strong communal elements in Chinese
                 culture itself (as well as Russian culture), which is why
                 I think communism was able to take hold there. -- ilyas
                 \_ what communal elements, pray tell us?
           \_ it was doing pretty well, IMHO until the white men brought over
              'things' that changed people's mentality and ultimately
              destabilized the country.
                \_ If you call millions dying every once in a while
                   "pretty well".
                        \_ relative to Europe in the Dark Ages, YES.
                           \_ Well that's not a good time to compare. Europe
                              was doing really well until the damn Jews
                              fucked it up with their religion.
                              Anyway your example of the Chinese family unit
                              isn't very good. Most other cultures had to rely
                              on that before modern times, and most still do
                              in a basic way. What other examples do you have
                              of Chinese non-government solutions?
                           \_ Not just the Dark Ages.  The Chinese Empire
                              fared reasonably well from around Roman times
                              till the 1700s.
              \_ what things? opium?
                \_ ideologies. physical goods. drugs. envy.
                        \_ There was no envy in China?
          \_ not sure I speak for most Chinese people but I'm pretty proud
             of the history from its beginning to about 200 years ago. Sure
             there were wars and disease and famine and <stick in whatever
             negative thing you can think of> but the empire flourished
             because of its hard working people who believe in family
             values, stability, education, hard work, self-reliance,
             family-reliance, and traditions.  In fact these are traits that
             many Chinese people still have, and will still honor for
             centuries to come.
                Now tell us what you think about the Chinese culture and
             if you see parallels in your ideology.
             \_ I am going to split your question into two.
                (1) I have a profound respect for Chinese culture, I think
                it contributed immensely to humanity as a whole.
                (2) I think a glib way to describe what I view as a chief ill
                in society is an 'unmeritocratic hierarchy.'  Humans need
                hierarchies to scale their activities, but all sorts of
                problems come up if these hierarchies don't let the cream
                rise to the top.  This can happen in business, government, and
                family.  This is what I think the problem is.  I don't know
                how to structure a society that avoids 'unmeritocracy' from
                creeping into naturally arising hierarchies a society must
                have.  I am not sure if this is a coherent answer to what you
                were asking. -- ilyas
                \_ In China, it's called the dynastic cycle.
             \_ don't forget the concubines
                \_ that's definitely good. definitely.          -liberal
                \_ that's evil, pure evil.                      -conservative
2005/1/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35939 Activity:moderate
1/27    MANIFEST DESTINY!!! Just as we freed the Tibetan plateau
        with our generosity (free red Mao books laden with Communist
        teachings), we should free the Taiwan province for
        better use for Chinese. MANIFEST DESTINY!!!
        \_ Bring the Gospel to China.  Free China!
2005/1/26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35902 Activity:high
1/26    Boston Terrorists a Hoax:
        http://csua.org/u/au9 (Reuters)
        In other news, you can win an iPod if you send email to
        president@whitehouse.gov with the subject "I Will Kill You."
        \_ they did say (at the same time the photos were being splashed
           and freepers forums were in pandemonium) that the tip was
           completely uncorroborated
           \_ That was just an escape clause to disavow any responsibility.
              How about shouting fire in a crowded theatre and add that it is
              uncorroborated?  Even after 9/11, the fed is not supposed to
              announce false rumor or slander using government priviledge and
              prestige, and it hasn't until now.  It was always the press who
              went to the fed to ask for details of some actions taken, but
              this time the fed went to the press time and again to promote
              a tall tale.  One has to be very naive not to conclude this is
              deliberate at some level of the government.  How many "anonymous
              tips" as far fetched as this got daily joint press announcement
              by the US attorney office and fbi?  They are more vigilant at
              checking out all the rumors, they are raising alert level without
              specifying terror threats, but it is extraordinary to turn a 6th
              grade joke into a worldwide man hunt.  A lot people (including
              those outside US as this was a BIG news everywhere) now mentally
              associate China/Chinese with terrorism on account of that news
              alone.  The revelation that this was a hoax was published much
              less extensively, with no fanfare.  Many of those who did notice
              it, from Safire to washtime to freeper to libertypost would just
              complain that Chinese have an easy way around the justcie system,
              and they have Wen Hoo Lee, the army chaplain, the LA businesswoma
              and now the "nuclear oxide" as "proof."  Intended or not, this
              is the consequence, and somewhere some people are celebrating.
              \_ Who?  You're saying this is a government conspiracy to make
                 Chinese people look bad?
                 \_ Isn't the motd full of idiots that hates Chinese?
                    \_ You make it sound as though motd needs an excuse to
                       hate you.
              \_ Be grateful for Bin Ladin, if it weren't for him,
                 Bush might be invading China right now. Without a public
                 enemy, how can he fuck with all those budget surpluses?
        \_ Awwwwwwwwww.
2005/1/25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35885 Activity:very high
1/25    Why was Mainland China willing to give up outer Mongolia before but is
        not willing to give up Taiwan now?  Thanks.
        \_ Republic of China lost Mongolia because CKS made a deal with Soviet.
           Give up Mogolia, in return, stop assistance to Communist in China.
           Of course, Soviet never kept their end of bargain.  Thus, Republic
           of China revolked its recognization of Mogolian's soverignty.
           Until this day, Republic of China (e.g. taiwan) still claim
           soverignty over Mogolia. When Communist overran the mainland,
           as part of cozy up with Soviets and the fact that majority of
           nations already recognize Mogolia as a nation, PRC gave up the
           soverignty.   This is one of the most shameful part of
           the Republic's history.  And for this reason alone, The Republic of
           China deserved to be overthrowned.           kngharv
           \_ Wow, using this logic, I could argue that the PRC giving up
              Mongolia to cozy up with the Soviets was one of the most
              shameful parts of PRC's history.
              \_ I am not happy with that, but remember unlike ROC, PRC never
                 had Mongolia.  ROC literally handed it to Soviet red army
                 and then later when it changed its mind it rewrote history
                 to pretend otherwise.  CKS also cozied up to Stalin for quite
                 a long time and never rose up to the soviets (except for
                 kidnapping a wrecked civilian ship).  PRC on the other
                 hand fought a very bloody skirmash with the soviets.
        \_ Give up?  When was Outer Mongolia part of China?  Are there even
           very many Chinese people living there?
           \_ Depends on how the communist party like to define "Chinese".
           \_ From what I read, Outer Mongolia broke away from China in 1921
              under Soviet backing.  The ROC govt never released claim to
              that land, but the PRC did.  After 1949, Taiwan's version of the
              map of R. O. China still included Outer Mongolia while Mainland's
              version of P. R. China didn't.
              \_ But the population is less than 0.1% Chinese.
                 \_ Depends on your definition of "Chinese".  The common
                    Chinese (Han?) definition includes more than the Han.
           \_ Most americans (left and right alike, except the neo-nazis and
              klansman) would find it very offensive/ignorant if someone tell
              them only the whites are Americans, but are utterly eager to make
              the same statement about other multi-ethnic countries.  Why?
        \_ Is it that not obvious in terms of geography and economy of each
           country?
        \_ "Why" doesn't matter.  "Whether" matters.
        \_ The soviets occupied Outer mongolia by force.  As for the later
           posts, outer Mongolia was expelling large number of Chinese living
           there all the way into the 80's, so yes, at least the outer Mongolia
           government thought there are many chinese living there.
        \_ There was a revolution.  Previous government withdrew to Taiwan.
           New government stayed in China.  Previous government is not
           currently in Mongolia.  Duh.
2005/1/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:35775 Activity:very high
1/18    And now, a non political question. I want to do semi-transparent
        on a bitmap. Is turning every other bit transparent and staggering
        this on every line effective?
        \_ It does work, but it doesn't look great.  As the poster below
           suggested, use a bitmap format with real translucency (like PNG)
           if you can.
        \_ Are you chinese?  Do you understand the effects opium trade
           had on china?
           \_ Fuck you and your bitmaps.  How much did Karl Rove pay you to
              to say that about bitmaps?
              \_ Obviously you've never served.
        \_ Uh, you mean a checkerboard pattern? =P Sure, it's fine, except
           that if by "bitmap" you mean a "Windows bitmap", then you don't
           get any transparency.
           \_ This can make nasty moire patterns on CRT monitors, in case that
              matters to OP.
        \_ use png files if you can
        \_ The easiest way is to create a layered image in whatever tool you
           prefer (photoshop, psp, gimp, etc.) and set the transparency.  Do
           you want to simply make 1 bitmap?  Many?  Programatically?
           \_ I want to have a floating bitmap as a window (already
              accomplished) that is semi-transparent so that you can see
              everything behind the window. Other option I suppose is to
              take a clipped screenshot of everything behind the window
              and do an alpha on the two bitmaps, but that seems
              to be somewhat difficult to accomplish.
              \_ On Windows 2000 or XP, why not use normal alpha?
2005/1/12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35674 Activity:high
1/12    ChiCom troll, at least they didn't call Hu a running a dog:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4165209.stm
        \_ No, no. Hu's on second.  What's on first.
           \_ That's what I'm asking YOU!
              \_ I don't know!
                 \_ Third base!
                    \_ (... continued at the end of motd ...)
                       \_ wow.
                       \_ Most excellent. Copied to /csua/tmp/husonfirst to
                          save motd space.
2005/1/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35644 Activity:high
1/10    This is sad. An equivalent will be someone renting out a room
        for 1 million $ in the US to aid workers. This is a country
        where $5000 can last you years.
        "While thousands live in makeshift camps, residents not
         affected are renting out homes for $5,000 a month or more to
         the hundreds of aid workers flowing in."
        \_ In China these people will be put in jail. Man I wish East
           Palo Alto and Oakland were part of China, then those black
           fuckers will get what they deserves, nothing less will fix
           the problem. -pissed off living in these areas
           \_ whee.  chicom turns teeth-gnashingly racist!
              \_ Are you laughing from your rich neighborhood? -aap
           \_ Why don't you just move idiot?
        \_ Why do you hate the free market?  This is ilyas' dream!!
2005/1/9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35617 Activity:high
1/8     Chinese American who spies for US and then arrested for sleeping with
        her handler freed.  Judge accuses presecution of serious misconduct.
        http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-katrina7jan07,1,3939111.story
        \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1316268/posts
           \_ Thanks.  It is almost always amusing to read the comments
              by the freepers.  It is also very informative -- not about the
              original article but about the freepers themselves.  They appear
              mostly to be poorly programmed robots.  Despite all their
              mistrust of the government all but one seemed to know for sure
              the fed is right and she is guilty of spying for China.  In fact
              they seem to know the right answer to everything.  If only we
              could have a regime change to put them in power.
        \_ This is an old case....
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/894913/posts
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/890235/posts
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/889352/posts
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/889197/posts?page=1,50
           http://www.cis.umassd.edu/~gleung/nacaf/nb9a.html
           \_ But dismissed only now.  BTW, what is the special relevance of
              the pics on the last link? to the case?  Any pics of her is
              evidence of guilt?
2004/12/31-2005/1/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:35506 Activity:high
12/31   350 million, now that's more like it!!
        \_ How much have China, Japan, and Korea donated?
           \_ After the tsunami, China was the first foreigh country to send
              money, goods, and rescue team to Thailand and probably others
              as well. They pledged 2.62M US$ then added an extra 60.46M US$
              yesterday.  Incidentally, judging by GDP per capita, China is
              poorer than two of the countries to which it is donating money.
              Its rank is 123th (below average), quite a bit behind
              Thailand (97), Malaysia (86). cf Korea (50), Japan (17), USA (3)
              \_ Damn fucking US media, I find no mentioning of this.
                 Yeah, balanced and unbiased, my ass.
                 \_ So naive, little boy.  Go back to drinking your kool-aid.
           \_ *IF* USA has pledge to donate let say, $50 million within hours
              of diseaster (instead of days), it would of made differences
              in opinion poll.  China's aid is minute compare with USA, Japan,
              and Germany, but China was one of first nation which send out
              aids to them.
        \_ They didn't spend billions invading another country.
        \_ hopefully they buy American first, gotta pump up our economy
           \_ they already are.  buying cigarrets :p
2004/12/21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35379 Activity:very high
12/21   Hey, chicom troll: is it just me, or was "Hero" a huge propaganda
        push for the reunification of China?
        \_ John, stop using racist slur.  we all know what that "chi" in
           chicom stands for.
        \_ "reunification" imply china ever not unify.  This is lie of
           USA diplomacy.
           \_ Oh christ. My granny could spoof chicom troll better than you.
              \_ typical arogant USA troll. I like to see you spoff chicom
                 trol better!
        \_ whta's chicom?
           \_ Not sure. I once posted a quote from the Simpsons and some
              anon. motd coward accused me of being chicom.
           \_ Chinese communism? *shrug*
              \_no, OP meant "Chink Communist"
           \_ http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chicom
        \_ Isn't that what the fuck we are doing to Iraq? You fuckhead?
        \_ China's propaganda machine pales in comparison to what
           BushCo tells to the Iraqi people. You want to hear what real
           propaganda is like? Go to Iraq and see what the US is
           capable of. And shut the fuck up.
        \_ I don't know who to believe, chicom troll or capitalist
           scumbag...  neither is better than the other. China has
           Mao, US has Cheney/Rumsfeld. Evil is what evil does. At
           least Mao led China to independence from western aggression
           and tells the world don't fuck with us. What the fuck has
           Cheney and Romsfeld done other than pocketing billions from
           the Iraq war and fucked California during the energy
           crisis? The US has sunk to a new low and all the while you
           are still chewing out chicom troll jokes? You are hopeless.
           \_ Haha, you are my hero! -- ilyas
           \_ Mao told the world don't fuck with the Chinese because he's
              fucking them himself.
              \_ Yeah, just like how the US fucked millions of
                 native americans, but its ok when WE do it because
                 we got bigger guns!!
                 \_ What's the casualty during the Cultural Revolution?  How
                    did Cheney and Rumsfeld fucked millions of native
                    Americans?  (Not that I like Cheney or Rumsfeld, but they
                    were compared to Mao above.)
                    \_ http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/marerror.htm
                        Mao: Great Leap Forward   1959  25.6M
                        Mao: Cultural Revolution  1965  1.1M
                        Gulf War                  1991  .08M
                        \_ This is as accurate as some site claiming US killed
                           billions of native americans.
                    \_ Iraq war casualty is about 1K U.S. + 15K Iraqi = .02M
                \_ Mao: Let's kill our own people for our future
                   Bush: Let's kill everyone else for our future
                   Seriously, I don't know what is worse...
                   \_ Both are bad, but I think the former is worse.  A
                      country's leader is supposed to put his/her countrymen's
                      interest before people of other countries.
                        \_ you are, of course, speaking from the perspective
                           of a narrowminded American. Switch Bush/Mao and
                           see if your statement is still valid in the
                           perspective of the mass.
                \_ how many chinese would there be (given birthrates)
                   if mao hadn't eliminated 30 million?
        \_ You must be Taiwanese and believe all the lies the
           Taiwanese media says about China.
2004/12/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35372 Activity:high
12/21   http://tinyurl.com/3hwmn
        US Slips in Attracting the World's Best Students
        \_ The article indicates a decline in number of students
           (nothing new there) and does *not* in any way make statements
           about the "world's best".  Quoting the article title (even from
           the nyt) is inappropriate here because the claim isn't backed up.
           \_ As far as graduate study, the US has always attracted the best.
              Therefore, any drop in students means the best are looking
              elsewhere.
              \_ Was every grad student who came to the US from abroad
                 "the best"?  Your logic is weak.
                 \_ Heh. Some I've met were very good. Most were just willing
                    to take more abuse from their advisors than homegrown
                    students who can walk and get paid better elsewhere.
                    \_ You're already limited by self-selection.  When's the
                       last time you visited the campus of say Golden Gate
                       University or St. Mary's?
                       \_ I apologize for being dense, but I'm not getting your
                          point. What is it about those schools?
                          \_ The foreign student population at less selective
                             universities are most likely even less bright
                             than the dullards you've met at your school.
                             Then there are the lowest tier "colleges" where
                             education play second fiddle to the primary task
                             of providing foreign "students" with paper work
                             so they can enter the US.
                             \_ I'm constantly amazed at the number of
                                Japanese attending Jr. college in CA.
                                \_ JC is positively Harvardesque compared to
                                   some of the most egregious visa mills.
                                   http://brandoncollege.com for example.  Are we
                                   losing visa mill students or are we losing
                                   MIT students?  The distinction is important
                                   and unaddressed.
                 \_ As is your grasp of the obvious.
                    \_ Unfortunately, your grasp of subtlety is even weaker.
              \_ From TFA:
                  "Other countries are just starting to expand their capacity
                  for offering graduate education. In the future, foreign
                  students will have far greater opportunities."
                  This is good news for non-US students--they won't necessarily
                  have to come to the US for grad studies (because it's no
                  longer the only game in town).
        \_ That's ok, those best students are never the right races.
           \_ The dirty Arabs want to corrupt our precious bodily fluids.
              \_ You say that like it's a bad thing...http://csua.org/u/agp
                 (NWS)
2004/12/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35301 Activity:very high
12/14   Say goodbye to Bittorrent you hax0rz!
        http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/14/news/fortune500/piracy/index.htm
        \_ Have you even looked at Bit Torrent model? Put up a few trackers
           in China and see if the MPAA can touch them.
           \_ For once, Chicom troll have point.  Thank you, China!  -John
              \_ chicom troll? you must be an old fart john! ;)
              \_ John, for some time you have been crying "Chicom troll"
                 whenever there is any mention of China free of vitriol
                 on the motd.  Did some Chinese abuse you in some way?
                 You used to be more reasonable, or so I thought.
        \_ Isn't http://suprnova.org hosted in the Ukraine or something?
           \_ whois says netherlands.
                \_ so if I host an anti-Bush site out of US, I will not get
                   a visit from the CIA? How about child porn and drug
                   trafficking and prostitution ring? No CIA no FBI? Hmmm
                   \_ No, you'd probably get a visit from your local law
                      enforcement community (for the child porn/drug/whore
                      wite.)  Civilized countries tend to frown on that sort
                      of thing.  -John
                      \_ Do people generally consider Switzerland a
                         civilized country?
                         \_ More to the point, do people in Switzerland
                            consdier Switzerland a civilized country?
                            \_ Yes, and we get machine guns.  -John
                               \_ Still bitter about the gun debate?
                                  \_ You can take my bulldozer when you
                                     pry it from my cold dead fingers!!
                                     - ilyas #1 fan!
                                     \_ Yay!  I finally have a #1 fan!
                                          -- ilyas
                                        \_ Why don't I ever get nice things?
                                           -geordan
                                           \_ Because you are already
                                              pverpowered. -- ilyas
                                     \_ Your proposal is accepted.
        \_ You know, for once, I actually agree with Dvorak, "You can
           download movies on the internet??", woohoo, thank you MPAA.
2004/12/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35197 Activity:insanely high
12/7    Does anyone watch the Chinese-dubbed Korean TV drama on Ch32 10pm
         weeknights?  Is there an English name for that drama?  Thanks.
         \_ I've never seen it, but if you describe it, I might be able to
            figure out which one it is.  Just as a guess, it could be
            "Autumn Tale" which was very popular in Japan recently. -jrleek
            \_ Thanks, but "Autumn Tale" is the one running on Ch26 about two
               years ago, also dubbed in Chinese.  It's not the one on Ch32 now.
               I watched "Autumn Tale" and liked it.  The one on Ch32 now is a
               comedy.  A guy M1 and and woman W1 lives together in a hut on a
               roof of a building.  M1 is a jerk.  W1 likes M1.  M1 likes his
               good-looking college friend W2.  W2 likes her family friend and
               a corporate manager M2.  M2 likes his sub-ordinate W1.
            \_ While we're at it, what about the one that's the reverse of
               Autumn Tale?  Ie. a guy and a woman are in love, and eventually
               it turns out that they are half-siblings.  Anyone knows the name
               of that drama?  It was also Chinese-dubbed on Ch26 a couple years
               ago.
         \_ Man, I didn't realize that Korean dramas were so popular.
            \_ In Hong Kong, Korean dramas have overtaken Japanese dramas in
               the past few years.  Consider this: in the Bay Area, there are
               three drama time slots in the Chinese TV hours in the evening,
               8-9 and 9-10 on Ch26 and 10-11 on Ch32.  Two out of the three
               slots run Chinese-dubbed Korean dramas, and only one slot
               runs Chinese-made drama.
            \_ Korean drama is a lot better than the shit that's
               produced by Taiwan and HK. Mainland China's produces
               extremely good historical dramas, but modern day dramas
               can get a bit sensitive, and therefore not that many are
               that good. Korean dramas have very good story lines (and
               they do it pretty well that they are not lame). Most made
               for teen Taiwan dramas especially those with silly and
               low class jokes lacks substance. The bar has been raised
               by historical (especially JinYong) drama from China, and
               Korean dramas. I hardly see any Taiwan drama playing on
               the two Chinese stations now, because they just don't
               produce anything worth watching.
               \_ You call JinYong "historical drama?"  I'd call it wugong
                 action.  Not drama.
                  action.  Not drama. And definitely not historical.
                  \_ I meant historical, AND JinYong dramas...
                   \_ You may have meant it, but you didn't say it right.
                      Your language implied JinYong is a kind of historical
                      drama.  -- random English nazi
                      \_ Hey! I learned all my Chinese history through
                         JinYong!
               \_ Several years ago there was a historical dramas from Taiwan
                  about Empress Ci Xi, and another one about the old Bao Gong.
                  Both were very good.
                  about Empress Ci Xi, and another one about the old judge Bao
                  Gong.  Both were very good.
         \_ Cat on the Roof, according to http://tv.yahoo.com
            \_ Thanks!  That's the one!
2004/12/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:35175 Activity:kinda low
12/4    More funny.  A translation page for Kanji tatoos.
        http://www.hanzismatter.com
        \_ Every time I see some dingbat hood with hanzi tatoos, I think of
           Nadsat speak from A Clockwork Orange.  Uncanny similarities.
           I'm just waiting to hear them start mixing mandarin into their
           English.
        \_ I was at the police station filling out a report once, when
           some black lady came in to visit her boyfriend in jail.  She
           had "China" in simplified chinese on her ankle.  Why would some
           Oakland ghetto queen tatoo "China" on her ankle?  I'm still
           wondering.
           \_ I don't see what the big deal is.  Maybe it's exotic to her,
              maybe it represents something from her past, or as the poster
              below states, maybe it's her name or nickname.  I don't see that
              as something worthy of ridicule.  Now, if her tattoo had been
              "rice-dung-flea" or "dog-mat-beans" or "east-behind-whore" or
              something....
              \_ If it's "east-behind-whore" it could be a form of advertizing
           \_ Maybe her boyfriend in jail is Chinese.
           \_ It's her name or nickname?
2004/11/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34818 Activity:insanely high
11/10   130-year-old Chinese fire put out
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3978329.stm
        \_ Are you Chinese? Do you have any idea what the effect of
           a 130 year old coal fire was on China?
           \_ In SOVIET CHINA fire puts out YOU!
           \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you have any idea how much opium you could
              puff with that 130 years of coal fire?
        \_ Gives China a nice bonus for the Kyoto treaty. That's one big
           source of pollutions shut off.
           \_ Isn't that just one of many burning?
        \_ John Kerry's grandfather set it.
           \_ Uhm, before or after he enjoyed benefits from the effects of
              the opium trade in China?
                \_ Why do you hate John kerry's grandfather?
                \_ Actually, it came from a flicked-away match after
                   lighting up a fat opium spliff.
        \_ Cool! Xinjiang has 1.8 trillion tons of coal reserves.
           We must remember to always quash the Islamic separatist
           terrorists there.
           \_ We don't have to.  The Chinese have been doing that.
2004/11/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34792 Activity:insanely high 66%like:34786
11/9    Whoever posted it, explain it to me, what's the effect of the
        holocaust had on Yehudah? (And what does it have to do with the
        context for which it was posted for?)
        \_ BUD DAY wouldn't ask such unpatriotic questions!
           \_ and who the fuck is "BUD DAY"?
              \_ MoH winner, former POW, anti-Kerry, http://www.swiftvets.com
                 \_ Some motd poster made a plea for some respect for Day.
                    Apparently that is not the will of the motd.
                    \_ I have plenty of respect for Mr Day.  It's the boob
                       that turned his name into some kind of prayer or
                       hysterical invocation that's being mocked.
                    \_ He earned respect for somethings, but derision for other
                       reasons.  Then some people invoked him as a knee-jerk
                       criticism of anything pro-Kerry or anti-war, at which
                       point he became a motd cliche'.
        \_ If you have to ask...
        \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect the opium
           trade had on China?
           \_ I know the history of China and opium addiction is just
              another salient in the motd war between the liberals and the
              conservatives, but you should at least know a little of the
              tragedy you're belittling in your post.  It might be some
              quaint historical artifact for you, but at one point almost
              half of China was addicted to the drug, and quite likely every
              Chinese family have had to deal with opium addiction in its past.
              http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/om/om15.htm
              \_ But I don't understand the point the poster is trying to make
                 when replying to something about BushCo.
              \_ It is your insistence that Kerry must pay the price for the
                 sins of his maternal grand-relative that renders your point
                 ridiculous and turns the entire comment into a farcical
                 slogan a la WDYHA and such.  The Opium Trade was terrible,
                 and the British Govt., the perpetuators and only living
                 beneficiaries of that trade, are the ones you should be
                 approaching for repapration.
                 \_ You have your "you"s confused.  Whether Kerry inherited
                    the blame for his grandfather's sins is someone else's
                    argument.  Try to imagine the tragedy if half of China's
                    population were addicted to opium, and you'll understand
                    why the drug and the humiliation connected with it is still
                    a sensitive issue to many Chinese.  There are less repugnant
                    ways for your 2 sides to argue. -pp
                    \_ You should have weighed in while the damage was being
                       done.  Alas, the other guy made it into a motd cliche.
              \_ I ll be the first to admit that drugs can have a deleterious
                 effect on society, but as someone who opposes the Drug War,
                 and favors the legalization of all drugs, I find it difficult
                 to oppose the opium trade on principled grounds, even if it
                 did present a kind of OCP for China.  Perhaps someone could
                 provide a history lesson I am missing? -- ilyas
                 \_ simple.  people in Qing dynasty China are mostly
                    uneducated and uninformed about the effects of
                    drugs.  Western medical knowledge and care was
                    non-existent.  For example, will a particular
                    drug be detrimental to the fetus during pregnancy?
                    I can assure you, the drug goons (some of whom
                    were Jewish) of Britain and US didn't give a fuck.
                    It's good that they have long since been kicked
                    out of China.  Partial thanks go to some of the
                    Christian missionaries who spoke up against the
                    opium trade after seeing the human catastrophe
                    first hand in China.
                    \_ I am sure the drug goons didn't give a shit.
                       However, the Qing dynasty era chinese were not
                       stupid.  While they may not have been aware of
                       the harmful effects of opium initially, at some point
                       before HALF OF THE POPULATION was addicted, something
                       must have tipped them off.  At that point, you can't
                       really beg off on ignorance anymore, and it becomes
                       the fault not of the dealer, but of the junkie for
                       becoming a junkie. -- ilyas
        \_ Why do you hate America?
2004/11/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34786 Activity:nil 66%like:34792
11/9    Whoever posted it, explain it to me, what's the effect of the
        opium trade had on China? (And what does it have to do with the
        context for which it was posted for?)
        \_ BUD DAY wouldn't ask such unpatriotic questions!
           \_ and who the fuck is "BUD DAY"?
        \_ If you have to ask...
2004/11/5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34693 Activity:high
11/4    Can anyone give me some tips on how to, where at, and how much it costs
        to learn country dancing and horseback riding the state of California?
        I want to be less narrow minded and want to try out everything.
        I feel this should not be strictly a hobby of the elite right.
        \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect the opium
           trade had on China?
           \_ You've obviously never served.
                \_ Why do you hate swift boats?
                  \_ of course you realize this could destabilize the opium
                     trade for generations to come
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34674 Activity:high
11/4    I finally had time to track this down after the frenzy of the election.
        Francis Blackwell Forbes [Kerry's maternal great-grandfather] was a
        China merchant, opium trader and botanist.  He and other members of
        the Forbes family were active in the Opium trade and China trade
        during the Opium Wars, amassing a large fortune.  http://csua.org/u/9tm
        My (Chinese) wife is now extremely sorry she voted for Kerry.
        \_ Are you Chinese?
           \_ Yes.
        \_ And the actions of Kerry's ancestors matters because...?
           And voting for a war-monger like Dubya is better because...?
           And it matters even though Kerry lost because...?
           \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the devestation the opium
              traders wreaked on China?  Did Kerry enjoy the benefits of
              Forbes' opium trading?  If not directly monetarily, how about
              in terms of access, connections, vacations in family compounds,
              etc.?  Why would *any* Chinese vote for someone who extracted
              (and continues to enjoy) benefits from the opium trade?
              \_ Maternal great-grandfather... that's a pretty long time
                 ago.  Let's try a little closer to home.  Bush had
                 economic dealings with Osama.
                 \_ Did Kerry enjoy benefits from the fortune Forbes made from
                    the opium trade?  Yes or no please.
                    \_ What if he did? Is that his fault?
              \_ Jefferson owned slaves!  Get rid of that damn constitution
                 and never vote Democrat again!  -John
                 \_ And if you were black, and if Jefferson's decendent had
                    enjoyed benefits from the fact that Jefferson owned
                    slaves, then I would say that you would be justificed in
                    condemning Jefferson's decendent.  So the question is,
                    did Kerry enjoy benefits because he was descended from
                    Forbes?
                    \_ The election is over.  Kerry lost.  Get over it.
              \_ Yes, I am Chinese.  Are you?  Let it go.  Move on.
                       \_ The question remains.  Why would any Chinese vote
                          for anyone who enjoyed benefits from opium trader
                          money?
                          \_ Because of the 'markov moral property' --
                             Kerry just used money.  That the money might
                             have been gotten in questionable ways by
                             his ancestors is not relevant.  They are
                             dead, and conditioned on the money, the
                             actions of Kerry and their actions are
                             independent.
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                          \_ Your argument style and bloody minded insistence
                             is suspiciously similar to Swift Boat guy. Yay
                             Swift Boat Guy!!!
                             --swift boat guy #1 fan
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                                \_ Did it turn chinese people into raging
                                   idiots?
                                \_ Are you the Swift Boat Guy?
                          \_ Because Bush is an even bigger ass who has
                             commited repugnant acts in the modern day?
                             Look, the choice is between douche and turd.
                             I choose douche.
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                                \_ Are you an idiot? Do you understand that
                                   typing the same question in three different
                                   places on a thread makes you look like
                                   one?
                                   \_ You can't answer the question, can you?
                                      \_ Yes, I can.  That has no bearing on
                                         Kerry, however.  You really should
                                         go back to ranting about Bill Clinton.
                                         At least he was actually the
                                         President for awhile.
                                \_ Uh, I already answered.  Yes, I am Chinese.
                                   Are you?  The opium war is in the past,
                                   okay?  Let it go.
        \_ Bush deceived the American people, embroiled us in a war based on
           lies, and funnelled American taxpayer dollars into corporations that
           donated heavily to his political party.  Why would any American
           vote for Bush?
           \_ You need to read up on the history of the opium traders.
              \_ You really need to open your fucking eyes.
        \_ And the Bush fortune was based on trading with the Nazis. Which
           was worse? The opium wars or the holocaust?
        \_ It is this kind of crap that is destroying America. Your guy won.
           Stop taunting and rubbing salt in the wound unless you want us
           to block your every action for the next four years.
2004/10/29 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34425 Activity:nil
10/28   Gulliver's travails: The U.S. in the post-Cold-War world
        http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/oct04/osull.htm
        Yearning to be liked
        http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/nov02/derby.htm
2004/10/22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34287 Activity:high
10/22   what books/tapes best to learn mandarin?
        \_ Can you already read Chinese?  If you can read Chinese, you can
           learn by watching Channel 26 every weekday 8-10pm and then Channel
           32 10-11pm.
        \_ Pimsleur
        \_ Practical Audio/Visual Chinese >> Pimsleur
           Plus with the videos you can ogle h07 42n ch1x.
          \_ thanks guys, you guys rock..
2004/10/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34207 Activity:nil
10/18   Here's a nice scam: selling a process to guarantee that someone's
        child will be the gender they choose. When it works, $5000+ from
        eager Chinese couples! When it doesn't, no biggie just give back the
        money (which you earned a few months of interest on).
        http://csua.org/u/9jm
2004/9/18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33612 Activity:nil 62%like:33608
9/17    PJ O'ROURKE: Why Americans hate foreign policy
        http://csua.org/u/93j (Daily Telegraph)
        \_ Cf. Orson Scott Card's conversion post-9/11.
2004/9/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33608 Activity:nil 62%like:33612
9/17    PJ O'ROURKE: Why Americans hate foreign policy
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1219406/posts
2004/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33579 Activity:insanely high
9/16    Captain Yee given an HONORABLE DISCHARGE.
        \_ And his commander thanked him for all the muslim p0rn he brought to
           the military.
           \_ Do you even know who Yu is?
           \_ I think the OP is talking about Captain YEE, who was the Muslim
              chaplain at Gitmo who was charged with espionage.  The case was
              dropped and it looks kind of like a Wen Ho Lee repeat.
                \_ wen ho actually misplaced classified documents.  i think
                   he was acting weirdly and stupidly but didn't deserve
                   solitary for a year
                   \_ Yeah, but they made a big case about how he was spying
                      for the Chinese, and when it turned out they were totally
                      wrong, they charged him for the only minor thing they
                      could get him on.
                      Oh, and before someone says "misplacing classified
                      information isn't minor" I'll admit it's important, but
                      it's a crime lacking in criminal intent.
                      \_ Dropping charges for national security reasons which
                         happens all the time is not the same as him not being
                         a spy for the Chinese.
                \_ what was he doing then?  it's just odd that he deliberately
                   stored all that stuff on some of disk media, then
                   some how lost it.  was he just looking for another job?
                   \_ what's so odd about it?  some people are careless or
                      absent-minded.  einstein even forgot where his home
                      in princeton was.
                      \_ i bet when you work for a NUCLEAR LAB you get trained
                         to not do the above.  what do you think?
                         \_ I bet you always follow every one of your
                            employer's regulations to the letter.
                            \_ You haven't been in one of the labs.  If you had
                               you wouldn't be so flip about it.
                \_ If I worked in a government NUCLEAR LAB, I would follow
                   the "don't copy random secret shit to floppy disks
                   and leave them lying around at Starbucks please
                   IF IT'S NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE" employee worksheet
              \_ Yeah I know, but wasn't he charged with adultery and storing
                 p0rn on army computers?
                 \_ And those charges were dropped this week and he's being
                    given an honorable discharge.
                 \_ Yeah, after the treason and espionage case was shown to be
                    a crock of shit.
                    \_ Not true.
                       \_ Oh, really?  They why did they never determine he
                          passed any classified information?  Why did they drop
                          the charges?  To drop a serious national security
                          case and then press on with some minor unrelated
                          stuff seems like major ass-covering by the people
                          prosecuting him.
                       \_ Would you care to elaborate?
                          \_ I believe that person thinks Yee did mishandle
                             classified documents.  The Army said national
                             security concerns prevented them from seeking
                             a court-martial in open court.
                             \_ An honorable discharge in this sort of
                                situation is practically an apology (as
                                close as he'll ever see).  The pp is flat out
                                wrong.
                             \_ Which is a BS excuse, because they could use
                                lawyers with security clearances, have the
                                evidence sealed, and have a closed courtroom.
                                In other words, use the same system they're
                                planning on using on the Gitmo prisoners.
2004/9/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:33529 Activity:high
9/14    http://tinyurl.com/4gvhg
        And you thought the US was bad
        China executes 4 for bank fraud
        \_ So? There are a lot of people here that I think should
           get executed. Go China! One less scumbag to worry about.
           \_ Execute the Enron guys!
        \_ Scumbags needs to be executed, just like all those fuckers
           in Oakland that shots people on the street. Before you
           start loud mouthing about China executing people, I challenge
           you to go to ANY major city in the US at the middle of the
           night, and then do the same in China.
           \_ Don't be absurd -- I've been out at the wee hours in many us
              cities and have never been shot at or mugged.  I'm sorry Mr
              Chicom Troll, but your hatred of the us hasn't made our urban
              areas into war zones.
                \_ yea, we know kokomo, indiana is safe at night.
                   \_ And that's relevant, how?  -4 hp for poor reading
                      comprehension and analytical skills, grasshopper.  Train
                      harder.
                      \_ NOOO!  It's INT, not HP!!!
                         \_ The point isn't to make him stupider; it's about
                            cleaning up the genepool.
                         \_ He's already got a low enough INT.
                            \_ while the challenge is kind of dumb, the
                               poster does make a point.
                               \_ No he doesn't.  He creates a strawman with
                                  a specious example applied with no context.
                               \_ is the INT low enough that he's a moron,
                                  an imbecile, or an idiot?
                                  \_ Yes.
           \_ I am not afraid to go out at night, I have my AK47 now!!
           \_ I accept the challenge.  I was in Beijing one night and a
              cab driver tried to take advantage of my gf and I by driving
              through unbelievably sketchy, unpaved back alleys.  Only
              when he realized I was about to hit him in the back of the
              head did he "suddenly" find a major road and we got out.
                \_ yea, my beijing ex-roommate and best buddy says
                   beijing is pretty bad these days.  otoh, stealing
                   people's money is bad, and without a safety net
                   like in the US, poverty can make life very difficult
                   or even impossible.
                \_ What's wrong for taking a short cut?
            \_ nothing wrong with the cabbies in Beijing, unless you
               are from shanghai... I'm in Beijing now - have been
               here several times - never had an issue with the
               drivers.  Had one start chatting to me about Taiwan and
               all, but nothing offensive.  Perhaps it would behoove
               you to carry a map of Beijing and learn a tad of
               mandarin next time you come?
2004/8/30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:33220 Activity:high
8/30    Anyone watched the Olympic closing ceremony?  Those ten or so Chinese
        women dancers in short skirts playing Chinese musical instruments were
        very hot!
        \_ I concur.
        \_ pics?
2004/8/26 [Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:33159 Activity:very high
8/26    Kill me now.  This is incredibly stupid.
        http://csua.org/u/8rv
        \_ Old news.  My dad (public high school teacher) was grading in green
           ink 10 years ago to avoid irate parents and administrators saying
           he was psychologically scarring them.
           \_ The funny is the stupid psycho babel the use the justify
              purple as the perfect pen color for corrections.  I prefer
              green myself.
        \_ Soon they'll do away with grades, since they're so scarring.
           Why are American kids such wimps?
           \_ I had no grades until middle school and I did fine, by all
              accounts.
           \_ Your mistake is blaming the kids.
                \_ OK fair enough. It actually IS the adults, for
                   considering the child's complaint int he first place.
        \_ RED INK!  RED INK IS THE STANDARD BITCHSLAP!
           \_ In Hong Kong all school teachers use red ballpen to grade.
2004/8/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:33114 Activity:very high
8/24    Before one moves to a foreign city (or another U.S. city for that
        matter), is there a way to find out which neighborhoods are nice,
        run down, safe, or dangerous if you don't know someone already
        living there?
        \_ Many county and municipal Law Enforcement departments publish crime
           statistics in a variety of formats.  Contra Costa has a clickable
           map on its website.
           http://www.cocosheriff.org/crime_statistics/crime_statistics.htm
           http://www.cocosheriff.org/crime_statistics/crime_stat_maps/stats_clyde_un_concord.htm
           http://tinyurl.com/4w668
        \_ For inside the U.S., go to http://msn.com, click on Buy a House -> Compare
           Cities.
        \_ It's very odd in LA, it's hard to tell by looking sometimes.
             -- ilyas
        \_ Check the housing prices.
           \_ Concur. It's not a 100% indicator when comparing downtown to
              a suburb (the suburb may actually be nicer and cheaper, but
              obviously farther) but it's a good start when comparing apples
              to apples.
        \_ Most of these methods operate on at most a per-zip code granularity.
           So none of them work well when there is variety within a zip code.
           In Sacramento, for example, conditions vary on an almost street-
           by-street basis.
           \_ And the houses on the better streets will cost more.
        \_ Just look for those minorities around. If you see em, you know
           it's a bad neighborhood. Man this is a boring motd entry.
           \_ Most of the residents in the Sunset and Richmond districts in SF
              are Chinese Americans.  Neither district seem to be bad
              neighborhood.
              \_ The Chinese are not a minority.  Just ask UC administration.
                 \_ Asians - the other white people!
2004/8/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33068 Activity:insanely high
8/21    Why is it that a miserable 3rd world nation such as China has
        more number of GOLD medals than USA, the world's wealthiest and
        most technologically advanced nation in the entire world? We
        spend billions and billions on advanced training,
        advanced technology, and advanced scienticfic research on
        our atheletes, and yet only 20 gold? For example, the runners
        get to try out the altitude tank to simulate oxygen deprivation,
        ball players try out really advanced computer simulations
        on strategies/etc, and the scientists/nutritionists customize
        the intake and monitoring of the atheletes based on advanced
        instrumentations and advanced nutritional science. With
        everything on our side, a low-tech nation such as China still
        gets more gold medals. WHY?
        \_ Because "western" nations do not treat 10 year old children like
           fucking science lab test subjects.  You'll note that the US wins
           way more medals than other "civilized" countries like, say, France
           or Japan or the UK.  -John
           \_ perhaps you should ask the chinese athletes whether they like
              to be where they are as opposed to planting sorghum at
              Big Cow village.  US dominance of track and field, etc. is itself
              the result of a big science project of selectively breeding
              african slaves.
                \_ Troll harder.  I didn't realize Kim Collins was US?  How
                   about Hailegebre Selassie?  El Gerrouj?  And as for field,
                   don't make me laugh.  -John
                   \_ a few exceptions here and there doesn't make it
                      untrue.  it's your characterization of china's
                      sports program that's laughable.  many of them
                      are talented kids from poor villages who would
                      have ended up poor farmers for the rest of their
                      lives otherwise.  Their parents are only too glad
                      to let them have the opportunity.  they always
                      have the choice to refuse to let their children
                      go.  if what you said is true, how come the
                      aussies hired two coaches from china, and
                      immediately they win gold and bronze at 10m diving?
                      the aussies must like being lab test subjects
                      then?
           \_ We Japanese has less than half the population of US, but
              half its medals.  We are superior.
                \_ W00t!  Better invade China 'n prove it.
        \_ Billions?  We don't spend a penny of tax payer dollars on them.
        \_ Using technology isn't always the best way to train. Haven't you
           seen Rocky 4?
        \_ They have 4 times as many people.
        \_ Why do you care?
        \_ Pretty sure this is a troll, but ...
           - We're going to have more gold medals when the Olympics are done.
             Much of the early standings are simply because of scheduling
             (Australia, for instance, halfway through the Games has already
             won most of the medals it'll win, because they're done with the
             events they're good at. We tend to do well at, say, track and
             field, which is only just starting.)
           - The US spends no tax dollars on athletics (this is almost
             unique among nations).
           - Our govt. doesn't select promising kids at age 6? 8? 10? and put
             them into special sports schools, as does China.
             \_ Yes, in America we have overzealous parents that do that.
                -dans
                \_ You know the difference between tax dollars and parent's
                   personal dollars, right?
                   \_ Yes, the parents' dollars will not be wasted. -- ilyas
                      \_ Then the parents will probably not put their kid in
                         these types of programs, because most of these things
                         aren't economically viable in themselves. The effort
                         China puts in its programs appears to have national
                         prestige and propaganda as the primary purpose and
                         these are not things that parents would normally
                         spend their own money on for their country.
                         \_ That's sort of what I was driving at, yes. -- ilyas
                         \_ actually it's more and more like the US in China.
                            athletes get big endorsements, etc.  But it's
                            still a good idea to get the government involved,
                            otherwise poorer kids with talent from the small
                            towns and villages would not have any chance to
                            succeed since the facilities simply ain't there.
           - And as the previous poster pointed out, they have 4x as many
             people (and are wholly willing to put large amounts of resources
             into training them). Our athletes, when they reach world-class
             level, have access to the best training methods in the world,
             as do China's and 20 other countries ... we certainly have no
             advantage over China or Australia or the UK or dozens of other
             countries.
             \_ as far as I know, our govornment doesn't really intervene
                _at_all_ in most sports.  I knew a guy in highschool who was
                training as an olympic figure skater, and as far as I know
                he never interacted with the U.S. government in any way.
                \_ Son, that's why god invented athletic scholarships and
                   corporate sponsors.
                   \_ Yeah, but those usually don't come into play until you're
                      ALREADY real good; it's hard when you're ages 10 to 18
                      and are only just getting good. There's some sports that
                      are going to be really difficult for the US to continue
                      to compete internationally. How many universities in the
                      entire US sponsor men's gymnastics? 20. With ~10 gymnasts
                      per team, a 200-person pool for your entire national team
                      is not a deep pool at all (all US men's gymnasts went
                      to US universities; also many universities host foreign
                      students, making the pool even shallower ...).
                   \_ The olympic sports and college (i.e. NCAA) sports are
                      disjoint.  Scholarships are not available for
                      non-collegiate sports.  Corporate sponsorship is
                      basically a marketing play which means that in order to
                      be sponsored for a non-token sum, you must be an
                      established athlete with wide name recognition. -dans
                \_ i hope my tax dollars never go into training athletes. get
                   over your stupid nationalism.
                   \_ I strongly agree with you, but I suspect that the pp
                      you're responding to would also agree that this is
                      a good thing.
                   \_ Well, consider the costs. Let's say we sent 500
                      athletes to Athens. Let's say we paid them each $200k/
                      year. That's $100M, or a little more than a quarter
                      dollar per American. Would I pay a few bucks to win a
                      few more medals? Yeah, probably. I'm philosophically
                      against funding the athletes, but in the eyes of
                      government, it's pocket change.
                      \_ but we don't do it, and we still win golds, so why
                         do it?  Also, if they did it, don't expect it
                         to be given out evenly accross the sports.  As a
                         fan of some of the more obscure sports, it would
                         really piss me off to see skiing get disproportionately
                         subsidised.  If someone wants to subsidize sports
                         that people like to watch on TV, let the networks
                         who make all the money off of it do it.
                      \_ I wouldn't pay 1 penny to make the US teams win every
                         gold medal every time.
                         \_ there is plenty of information out there about
                            the societal benefits of athletic programs for
                            kids.
                            \_ Absolutely.  Agreed.  Sports in schools and
                               for kids in general is a great thing.  Just not
                               subsidies for advanced sports research shit so
                               "we" can win medals in some over-commercialized
                               and corrupt dope-a-thon.  -John
        \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5635973/site/newsweek
           "17,000 full-time athletes supported by provincial and city
            governments" (compared to zero in the US)
        \_ Because we are an imperial power in decline. Every time I point
           this out, I get called an America-hater, but I just like to
           see the world as it really is, not some Hollywood fantasy of it.
           Expect China to pass us in many other things in the next 20
           years.
           \_ *laugh*  There has never been a greater power on the planet.  The
              only power that is likely to ever be greater is if one day there
              is a true single world government that supercedes all national
              governments.
              \_ Don't be so proud of your technological terror.  The
                 ability to have a single world government is insignificant
                 next to the power of the Force. -geordan
           \_ I haven't called you America-Hater but I am wondering if you are
              the same guy as the 'nuanced worldview' guy who claims 90% of
              stuff in the 'real world' is personal stuff and vendettas.  You
              sound like spiritual soul mates, and are both liberals, most
              likely.  And both wrong.  America is stronger now than it has
              ever been.  America is stronger now than any imperial power at
              any time in history, including Rome, Britain, HRE, Habsburg
              Austria, anything.  You are either a troll or an idiot.
              \_ Nah, I will take the British Empire over America in terms
                 of power and accomplishments.
                 \_ Such as going to space and the moon, better health, longer
                    lives, a standard of living for the average citizen that
                    makes British Royalty of the past look like the lower
                    classes here now, no real enemies, safe to walk the streets
                    at night in most places, access to affordable and often
                    free education generally available, and a safety net the
                    British Empire never dreamed of.  And that's just off the
                    top of my head.  What were the British Empire's accomplish-
                    ments?  Turning both Afirca and the Middle East into hell
                    holes intentionally?  Thanks British Empire!
                    \_ errr ... the idea is to compare with contemporary
                       rivals.  also, a lot of the things you mentioned
                       are not good benchmarks of strength and power.
                       Switzerland also doesn't have enemies, and has
                       safe streets, free education, safety net, etc.
                       That doesn't make it a powerful country.
                       \_ Playing Victoria teaches you a lot about power
                          dynamics at the time of the British Empire (even if
                          it's just a silly game).  As Britain you did NOT want
                          the next 2-3 powers to gang up on you.  Britain had
                          a pretty light touch as an imperial power, because
                          they had no choice.  Britain had structural
                          weaknesses, foremost of which was their small
                          population and size (compared to the vast geographic
                          area of their holdings).  US has no real weaknesses,
                          except for oil, and that's only a weakness because
                          there is no will to make it go away.  -- ilyas
                          \_ US has plenty of weaknesses.  Its power is
                             dependent on an economic system that requires
                             the willing participation of allies and other
                             countries in Europe and Asia.  With the
                             introduction of guerilla warfare, occupying
                             other countries has also become prohibitively
                             expensive for America, as shown in Vietnam
                             and Iraq.  Then there is still Russia, which
                             can wipe out the US with the push of a button.
                       \_ Fuck powerful countries. Their only use is to counter
                          other powerful countries that might fuck you over.
                          The nationalist bullshit even in the olympics annoys
                          the hell out of me, all those national anthems after
                          every event. To me it actually takes away from the
                          individual achievements, the way the athletes are
                          made to personify their countries. Ideally, most team
                          sports should be eliminated from the Olympics and
                          the focus put on individual performances like it was
                          in ancient times.
           \_ I've seen you post this a number of times, and I've never
              seen anyone call you an America Hater.  Especially since
              this has little to do with the subject, I think you're a
              troll.  How about, Neo-con Troll?
              \_ neo-con troll?  have you ever listened to NPR?  maybe
                 they're all neocon trolls as well.  what you've just seen
                 is the typical NPR listener in action.
                 \_ Yes, but he's trolling FOR Neo-Cons.  Although, sure.
                    NPR Troll?  Empire Troll?
              \_ I think it has everything to do with the subject. China
                 is no longer a pissant third world country anymore. And
                 I detest the Neocons.
                 \_ All 7 of them?  It isn't a huge movement.  And yes, China
                    is still very much a pissant third world country.  They
                    can't even retake their own break away province much less
                    pose any sort of threat to the US.  If we were a brutal
                    conquering nation like they are we would have stomped
                    them decades ago.
                    \_ we ain't?  where are all the indians then?
                       \_ Getting rich with their casinos.
                          \_ Good idea.  Let's turn the Potala Palace
                             into a big casino.
              \_ WTF does anything this guy is saying have to do with
                 conservatives, neo or otherwise?
                 \_ See above reply.  The guy sounds like the's trolling
                    to make Neo-Cons angry.  If you don't know why, look
                    up the definition of Neo-Con.
        \_ The only reason China is ahead of America is because
           America gave them a free gold:
           http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/sports/olympics/23shooter.html
           \_ What happened to the csuamotd/csuamotd login?
        \_ The whole premise is false.  For whatever reason, China has always
           been strongest at the the items that got competed earlier, and
           whichAmerica (and the west) by and large do not care and hardly
           even consider as a regular sports (TABLE tennis???).  If you
           go back to olympic history, you will see the Chinese team get
           a bunch of medals at the start, then get stuck there for the
           rest of game, while the 3rd reich, the USSR , and Amerika
           will have a steady and linear increase.  They are the really
           competitors in the olympics.
           \_ yes but at least they dont have table tennis to 15 points,
              to 21 points, 50 points and 100points.
           \_ china is good at sports that require skills, intelligence
              and precision.  us is good at sports that require brute
              power, cause us has lots of africa athletes.
              \_ So basically any sport where you don't have to sweat or
                 move much.
                 \_ you do have to sweat.  it's just that sweating like
                    a dumb mule won't by itself win you any medal.
              \_ extremely weak troll.
                 \_ it may be a troll but it's also the truth.  besides
                    the message it's replying to is also a troll.
        \_ For the same reason lots of inner city kids are good in some sports.
           It's a way out. 'nuff said.
2004/7/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:32288 Activity:high
7/14    ipod owners, http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html says it has
        Chinese. Does it just mean the menus are in Chinese? or can it
        display Chinese song names? Thanks.
        \_ I left mine at home but I remember being able to change
           the menus to various languages like French and Spanish. I
           think Chinese might be one of them.
        \_ My dad had a bunch of songs in his iPod in Chinese.  Menus
           were in English.
        \_ everything will be in Chinese (unicode).  The menu and the songs
           (when input in Chinese) will be displayed properly.  Both simplifed
           & traditional supported
           \_ what kind of unicode transformation? utf-8? ucs-2?
        \_ FWIW, Persian/Arabic script didn't show up on my iPod even though
           iTunes displays the song titles correctly.
           \_ they are more complicated than Chinese.  they tend to be the
              last thing be supported.
        \_ Chinese pop sounds like cats in heat anyway.  Get some real
           music, like Britney.
           \_ I wouldn't say it's cats in heat, but I do think there is no
              variaty in Hong Kong pop.  They all sound the same.  After a
              variety in Hong Kong pop.  They all sound the same.  After a
              while you get bored.  Taiwan pop seems to have a little more
              variaty.  --- HK guy.
              variety.  --- HK guy.  [variety, not variaty.  spelld]
2004/7/8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31219 Activity:moderate
7/8     Post editorial:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35539-2004Jul7.html
        ".. Chinese hero -- that of a conscientious scholarly official who
        puts himself on the line to tell the corrupt emperor the truth for
        the sake of the people and is ordered punished"
        \_ The Motherland shall crush your splittist treasoners!
2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   
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