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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/7/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31181 Activity:insanely high
7/6     Any ideas from you folks about how to reverse the decline in
        Engineering education and work in the US?  It seems as though
        this trend isn't changing, and meanwhile interest in Engineering
        by Chinese students just continues to soar.  How long before we
        fall permanently behind?
        \_ I think you have to start young.  They guys I played with building
           legos when we were in preschool are all engineers now.
        \_ Don't worry, we still control the money.
        \_ Engi-what? Can't we just ask God to build us a bridge?
           \_ Dude!  Faith-based architecture, and Evangelical Christian Feng
              Shui!  This would make an excellent Star Trek novel.
        \_ China is still far behind.  Name one decent Chinese high-tech
           company.  Dell is gaining on Legend in China itself.  Cisco
           will slaughter Huawei (how many even heard about Huawei?).
           \_ I was thinking more in terms of the future and the educational
              system, rather than simply in terms of companies.  Engineers
              have to come from somewhere, you don't just pick them off the
              Engineer tree.
              \_ Actually, we have been picking them off the Engineer
                 trees, trees from all over the world, while US
                 produces relatively fewer engineers, they tend to
                 be fairly good ones.
           \_ This is due to a lack of money, not lack of talent.
              \_ Talent is just one of many things.  Lots of countries
                 have talented engineers including Russia and many
                 European countries, but we are still very much ahead
                 of all of them.
                 of all of them.  Why?  Because the best opportunities
                 are in the US, so their best engineers all come here.
                 \_ Again, like I said, money.
                    \_ money is part of it, but also the entrepreneurial
                       spirit, openness, diversity, corporate culture,
                       creative environment, etc.
                       \_ Good point. All these can be learned, to some
                          degree (and Chinese are very good at learning)
                          except money. It will take a while.
                          \_ not sure if it's easy to learn.  the japanese
                             failed to learn it after all these years, and
                             neither did the europeans.  it's kind of like
                             dell.  everyone knows what makes it
                             successful, but they just can't successfully
                             copy its model.  it could be especially
                             difficult for china given its current
                             political structure.  maybe the EU can do
                             it eventually.
                             \_ Here's a NYTimes Magazine article regarding
                                China with regard to this very topic.  Insert
                                obligatory whining about NYTimes if you wish.
                                http://tinyurl.com/2t6o2 (nytimes.com)
                                \_ I have no doubt China is a juggernaut in
                                   manufacturing, but can it take the next
                                   step up and create its own world-class
                                   companies.  For example, the article
                                   argues that manufacturers now supplying
                                   say Motorola is now selling their own
                                   phones.  Sure.  But can they sell well
                                   outside China's borders?  We have two
                                   business models here.  First is a Chinese
                                   company doing everything, second is a
                                   US company doing the branding, marketing,
                                   design and distribution, and the Chinese
                                   partner doing the manufacturing.  So
                                   far the second model is the better one,
                                   and I am not convinced it's going to
                                   change soon.  Taiwanese companies like Acer
                                   have tried to break into the US market
                                   with their own brand but ended in failure.
                                   Korean companies like Samsung have had
                                   more success, and of course the Japanese
                                   too.  Haven't seen much from China so far.
                                   \_ That's because, unlike Japan who changed
                                      the implication of "made in japan" from
                                      bad to good, stuff made in China hard-
                                      core sucks.
                                      \_ That's partly true.  Even though many
                                         of your nokia, motorola cell phones,
                                      \_ That's partly true.  Even though
                                         China makes many of your nokia,
                                         motorola cell phones,
                                         dell computers, etc.,  they
                                         still need the quality control set
                                         up by your world-class companies
                                         doing the manufacturing there.
                                         But even the Japanese are finding
                                         it necessary to shift production
                                         to China to stay competitive.
                                         Like I said, Chinese manufacturing
                                         coupled with western/japanese
                                         research, design, marketing,
                                         branding and distribution seems to
                                         be the most competitive model at this
                                         \_ obviously you know what are you
                                            talking about.  I want to add that
                                            don't discredit Chinese brand
                                            completely yet.  It takes years
                                            if not decades of effort to build
                                            up brand (which implies R&D and
                                            quality control), and Chinese
                                            company has one small advantage
                                            over all its Asian tiger: huge
                                            domestic market.  People may think
                                            Huawei is just a Cisco knock-off,
                                            but if your memory last long enough
                                            you might remember that Japan was
                                            doing the exact same thing in the
                                            past.  Then, there is a company
                                            called TCL, which pumps out
                                            40 million cell phones a year yet
                                            no one really hearrd of them before
                                            With their shear size, they slowly
                                            start to gain advantages in
                                            component price, etc, and soon or
                                            later they will have enough spare
                                            cash to try to establish its own
                                            \_ Wow.  Eye find it totally
                                               easy two respect you're
                                               arguments.  Keep thee rebukes
                                            \_ While market size of China is
                                               big, unlike Japan and South
                                               Korea at a similar stage of
                                               development, due to WTO,
                                               China's market is more
                                               open to foreign companies and
                                               competition, making it tougher
                                               to nurture domestic brands.
                                               The thing about free trade is
                                               that it tends to strengthens
                                               existing competitive advan-
                                               tages, and makes it harder
                                               to develop new competitive
        \_ Allow the return of competition to the public schools.
           \_ cf Battle Royale!
           \_ What on earth are you talking about?  Something competing
              with the public schools?  People in the schools competing
              with each other?  How will either of those get Americans
              interested in Engineering again?
              \_ Being graded on merit and not worrying about social issues
                 force students to excel.   That's waned significantly in
                 recent years.
                 \_ Worrying about social issues?  Excuse me?  I think your
                    assertion is lacking in both clarity and evidence.
                    Of course this is the motd, so go for it!  Anyway, I think
                    the below poster is a little closer to the core issue
                    than you.
                    \_ Life skills, multiculturalism, don't make anyone feel
                       bad, screen the Michael Moore movie at the NEA
                       convention.  That kind of crap.
        \_ The Dilbert experience, outsourcing, and long hours of solitary
           staring at computer screens probably isn't that appealing to many
           staring at computer screens probably aren't that appealing to many
           Americans without the get-rich-quick carrot to lead them on.
           Probably there are more opportunities in other fields here in
           America than there are in China or India, so an engineering job
           doesn't seem as desirable here.
2004/7/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:31128 Activity:insanely high
7/2     http://csua.org/u/80x
        U.S. sending 7 of its 12 carrier strike groups to glower at China this
        summer. -- ulysses
        \_ Their flower-power is no match for my glower-power.
        \_ nice.  sugar daddy comes to our rescue again.  teach those idiotic
           nationalistic gung-ho commie bastards some manners ....
           most likely, they will do something like US trade sanction against
           cuba instead ... and see whose economy collapses first.
           \_ It's based on unfound rumors.  Sending 7 CSG to one spot is not
              only an overkill for a message but also very stupid.
                \_ yea, but there isn't much to do these days anyway ...
        \_ It's foolishness. It simulates a war footing against China. And
           even worse, it's deploying 10 out of 12 CSG at a single time, which
           means naval scheduling will be a mess for the year afterwards. The
           perfect time for China to invade is a month or two after the
           exercise while the US is recovering.
           \_ This is consistent. Foresight, planning and contingency
              preparation have not been BushCo's strong points.
              \_ Ah yes.  The foresight to anticipate an Iraqi insurgency,
                 the planning to award no-bid reconstruction contracts to
                 Halliburton, and preparing for the contingency that we might
                 not be showered with flowers.
                 \_ Who exactly else in the whole world could have rebuilt an
                    entire country like Halliburton is doing now?  No one.
                    There is no one else on the planet that could have bid.
                    Some things just need to get done without bullshit and
                    24 month bid reviews.
           \_ well, it's an exercise. it seems reasonable to want to run though
              it for training purposes. it's politically incorrect but then so
              is communism.
              \_ When did communism become non-pc?
                 \_ Communism has always been cool with the politcally correct
                    crowd.  They idolise it and its confused followers.
           \_ come on guys, an url from a 2nd hand ?news? site that is based on
              a speculation from another totally unreliable site (sina.cn)
              isn't really a solid starting point for a sound discourse.
              Oh, never mind.  Neither is the motd.
              \_ But it would be cool if true since only 3 or 4 battle groups
                 carries more than enough fire power to obliterate all signs
                 of civilisation in China.
        \_ Yes it is true and fairly old news.
           Seven Carrier Strike Groups Underway for Exercise 'Summer
           Pulse 04'
           \_ Which is quite different from the op.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31115 Activity:very high
7/1     Hey Pro-China guy:  Are you trolling, or do you really think people
        should stop blaming China?
        \_ The PRC is the People's paradise on earth!  The freedom from
           evil capitalism and soul-crushing corporations have been
           brought by the glorious revolution.  China only has the most
           altrustic motives for Asia! The Evil Bush is trying to claim
           that China violates it's citizen's civil rights, but nothing
           could be further from the truth!  No one has died in China
           since the revolustion, the joy and peace of the revolution have
           since the revolution, the joy and peace of the revolution have
           made all Chinese immortal! Move to China today!
           -Pro-China guy #1 fan.
        \_ I just think the media is very biased about China.  It is a
           great country, the majority of people are happy, life is
                \_ tanklguy was awesome
           improving, the economy is doing well. Sure, there are a lot
           of things that can be done better, but the progress it has
           made in the last 10-15 years is second to none. Out of the
             \_ funny, I don't know what media, you read, but the media
                I read pretty much says this about china, and little
                else (well, recently there has been some "can it keep up
                the pace") -phuqm
           millions of stories that happen each day in China, the only
           thing that gets reported in the western media is how bad
           the Chinese government is. Oh, they did this, Oh they did
           that. Give me a break. Some would very much like to see
           China go the way of the Soviet and break up into pieces, do
           you really think that's good for the Chinese people?
           Democracy needs to come from within, not forced upon by
           some bully. There are better things to worry about in this
           country, like how BushCo fucked California and laughed all
           the way to the bank.
           \_ Yeah so when democracy comes from within, you should crush it
              with tanks, right?  BTW, what was the name of that guy who
              stood in front of the tank?  The one the entire world saw on
              film?  Oh that's right, we don't and will never know his name
              because shortly after that was filmed he was taken to an
              alley and shot in the head.
              \_ They're still looking for the tank guy.
           \_ So why can't the media report about Hong Kongers being unhappy
              over freedoms they've lost since China took over?  I mean,
              200K+ people in HK really did get out to protest today.
              I was not posting about China people being unhappy; I was
              posting about Hong Kong people being unhappy.
              \_ Goes to show that Taiwan should not unite with PRC
                 anytime soon.
           \_ recent WSJ journal articles reported on the rise of many
              middle class rooted, non-governmental organizations in
              China including home owners' associations which fight
              for the rights and interests of various communities of
              home owners, thousands of environmental groups, etc.
              Non-governmental organizations are important building
              blocks for democracy, since they bunch like-minded
              individuals together and give them support (finance,
              expertise, organizational) and voice.  Without them, it's
              just the all-powerful government and powerless individuals.
              Sounds like a very positive article to me.  In fact,
              many of the WSJ articles about China are very fair
              and balanced, in my opinion.  That's not to say that
              some US media are very anti-China.
              some US media aren't very anti-China.
              \_ Until the Chinese government outlaws these organizations as
                 being anti-revolution and puts a bunch of their leaders into
                 insane asylums.
                 \_ they may try, but will they be successful?  do not
                    underestimate the power of hundreds of millions of
                    little bourgeoisies.  the population make up of
                    china has shifted in the past 3 decades.
                    \_ I am suspecting that the Chinse Communist Party will
                       fall out of power as hardliners die off.  Never
                       underestimate the power of apathy.
2004/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31103 Activity:high
6/30    "Voters are being pressured by employers and others to back
        pro-Beijing candidates and encouraged to photograph marked ballots
        with cell phone cameras to prove their patriotism."
        \_ Sounds like a good market for faked photographs.
        \_ Well, now that we're wriggling out of Iraq, maybe we can make
           strong staments against China again.
           \_ Exactly. How else can BushCo fuck the tax payer's money to make
              them rich? China is the perfect 'enemy' after Iraq. Do we all
              remember the spy plane incident? Yeah, they have us believe
              China would nuke us any minute back then. Fuck BushCo, piece
              of shit.
               \_ I'm not a big fan of the rambling haters on the motd
                  either, but I don't think it is fair to impersonate/
                  charicature them like this, as perhaps (though it seems
                  unlikeley) someone will think it is an earnest post.
                  \_ Who's he impersonating, Lupo the Butcher?
        \_ So what?
           \_ You are in a maze of ignorance, surrounded by twisty passages,
              all alike.  I wish you would be eaten by a Grue.
              \_ Stop criticizing China and spend your time on more
                 productive things, like vote Bush down and make sure
                 this country is not as fucked up as it is now. Geez.
                 What's next? Bush will send our spy planes to fly
                 REAL close to China and to provoke them to distract
                 us from his incompetence? Yeah, China is the biggest
                 threat to peace on this planet next to Iraq huh?
                 \_ The Washington Post is criticizing China.
                    The Post is also criticizing Bush policy.
                    Why not do both?
                    \_ I am just so fed up seeing all the anti-China
                       posts. BushCo stirs it up for its own evil
                       reason and the media buys it. Everything you
                       see in the media about China is negative. All
                       because of what? Because BushCo wants a public
                       enemy so they can dump the taxpayer's money
                       onto the defense companies and make them rich.
                       The problem with defense companies is they
                       don't go together peace and prosperity. BushCo
                       will get rich when the world is at war, and it
                       is what we are now. Wake up people, there are
                       bigger things to worry about than China trying
                       to convince its voters to vote for pro-beijing
                       leaders to keep their country intact.
                       \_ "convince" its voters
                           \_ Of course. China does not have laws that
                              legalize corruption. Political
                              contribution IS corruption legalized. In
                              China, some gets their head chopped off
                              for taking money, in the US, it's all
                              OK. Candidates openly ask for money, and
                              Bush surely made anyone contributed to
                              his campaign filthy rich, all legalized
                              and taken for granted. Perhaps there's a
                              lot China can learn from the US....
                              \_ Why is there a protest of 200K+ Hong Kongers
                                 today? http://csua.org/u/80h
                                 \_ Because HK people have been
                                    brainwashed for centuries by the
                                    Brits. They'd rather lick the feet
                                    of a Brit than stand up and be a
                                    man themselves. If your country is
                                    occupied by someone else for so
                                    long, you'll know. Just look at
                                    Taiwan, they still 'look up' to
                                    Japan, even though Japan invaded
                                    them and treated them like 2nd
                                    class citizen. Same thing with HK.
                                    HK people are gutless because they
                                    never ruled themselves. Having a
                                    Brits at the top makes them feel
                                    more secure, because that's the
                                    way they are brought up to believe
                                    in. Anything mainland China say
                                    must be wrong.
                                    \_ This is such an awful troll. Most
                                       HK people have only been there since
                                       the 50's or 60's.  If you think Beijing
                                       knows what's best for HK then I don't
                                       know what to tell you.
                                    \_ I'm sorry, did you miss the Cultural
                                       Revolution, the Gang of Four, and
                                       Tianamen Square?  PRC elites treat their
                                       own people like 2nd class citizens.
                                       Sure, bribery is punishable by death,
                                       but you're much more likely to be
                                       charged if you don't belong the Party
                                       and toe the party line.  It's not a
                                       People's Paradise; it's an old-fashioned
                                       oligarchy, and it needs to be squished.
                                       \_ Every attempt to squish an oligarchy
                                          results in a new and much worse
                                          obligarchy.  Communism is an example.
                                    \_ uh oh ... I don't like BushCo's
                                       fear-mongering with regard to
                                       China, but I like Hong Kong
                                       people's resistance to China's
                                       attempts to silence dissent.
                                       I don't see any contradiction
                                       with holding both views.  Attempts
                                       to link the two is mostly unwarranted.
2004/6/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31010 Activity:insanely high
6/25    Why did both the Mongols and the Manchus move their capitals to Beijing
        when they conquered China respectively?  Why would a superior country
        want to move its capital from home to the inferior country that it
        \_ Haven't you ever read The Prince by Machiavelli?  A full explanation
           of why it's a good idea to move your rule to conquered territory
           is contained in that.
        \_ Your lack of historical knowledge is truly appalling. The Mongols
           and the Manchus conquered China with the help of other Chinese
           factions. In order to maintain China as a unified whole it was
           always necessary to keep the capital in Beijing. Also, the
           Mongol hordes were nomadic so they didn't exactly have a
           concept of centralized government or planning. In order to
           rule China proper they had to inherit the vast bureaucracy of
           the previous dynasty.
           \_ I see.  My historial knowledge only came from three years of
              Chinese Histroy classes in high school plus all those Mandarin
              TV dramas on Ch26 over the years.
                \_ next time stay awakey
                \_ next time stay awake
           \_ Thanks, Pai Mei.  Now, go ahead and eat those fish heads.
           \_ I would like to add several things.  First.  Beijing was a
              small town prior to Mogols established its dynasty.  The logic
              behind establishing a city up in the north is that, believe or
              not, they want to be able to bail out relatively easily in case
              things went wrong (which it did in a relatively a short time of
              120 years).  Ming Dynasty, the dynasty established by ethnic
              Hans, originally established the capital in Nanjing.  It took
              a political coup and an emporer of grand vision to decide that
              it's easier to finish those mongols off if the capital is up
              north.  Manchus, the dynasty after that, decided that they
              really don't need to burn down the perfectly fine palace like
              all other ruling family did.  So, they inheired the palace and
              expanded.  Mind you that at the time, Manchuria was three times
              larger than what present Manchuria was.  So, lattatude wise, it
              was pretty close the centered.            -kngharv
                 [motd formatd: learn to queue in line]
              \_ Thanks for the insight!  -- OP
              \_ I am sure OP was a troll but just to amend what you wrote.
                 Beijing has been a town of varying significance for a very
                 long time, going back to at least to the 11th century BC when
                 it was the capital of the principality of Yan.  There were
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was not a small town.
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was >> a small town.
              \_ nah, before the Mongols invaded China, northern China was
                 already conquered by the Jurchens and it is called the
                 Jin.  Southern China is called the Sung (or Southern Sung,
                 after it lost the north).  Jin fell in 1234, and Mongols
                 started building Daidu (Beijing) in 1267.  Sung survived until
                 1279.  I think the Mongols were just too lazy to move again.
                 Daidu is also close to the capital of Jin and the capital
                 of the Liao, so it's not like it's built out of nowhere.
                 Same for the Manchus, they did not have a tight grip on
                 southern China until much later after they conquered the
                 north, so they already established the capital in the north.
                 \_ All the stuff you said didn't contradict with what I
                    mentioned.  Again, there are a lot of historical reasons
                    why Beijing became a city of importance.  And to the Han
                    Chauvinist below, Beijing became important mainly due to
                    minority tribe's effort.  Important Han capitals are
                    LuoYang, KaiFeng, and to lesser extent, ChangAn.
                                -mutt blood
                    \_ ok ok, I don't disagree with you.  Another reason
                       is simply that the capital followed the economic
                       center of the country, which was originally
                       further west in chang'an and luoyang with its rich
                       loess plains.  later on, due to weather changes,
                       that region became less important.
                       And then whomever ruled the Zhong Yuan plain, the
                       biggest undivided (by rivers and mountains)
                       piece of real estate of China, tend to eventually
                       conquer and rule the whole country, so the capital
                       moved there (kaifung, liao and jin capitals, daidu,
                       ...).  Economic center later shifted further to the
                       south, so sometimes, a southern capital was also
                       viable.  Another argument is that China's threats
                       historically (and in modern times too) tend to come
                       from the north, so it was better to have the capital
                       there to better deal with these threats.  Army
                       became more centrally controlled (to reduce chance
                       of regional "warlords" becoming too powerful), but
                       then it needed to be closer to where the external
                       threat was.  Having it in the Yangtze region would
                       mean the reaction time would be way too slow for
                       any disturbance in the north.
        \_ Better housing?  And easier to govern the country from a more
           central location?  Just my guess.
           \_ Central location is the most common capital placement,
              though border changes may leave the original capital
              in an unusual position (Washington DC).
              \_ But Beijing's location is strikingly similar to Washington DC.
                 It was already not the central location when they moved the
                 capitals there.
        \_ better babes!
                \_ Have you been to beijing?
                   \_ GWB has and he agrees.
                      \_ GWB isn't looking for tail.  You mean Clinton.
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago so he could cuz
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago cuz
                            of the hot babes there.  He admitted as much.
                   \_ Have you been to Mongolia?
                   \_ Are you gay?
                   \_ I like this beijing babe:
                        \_ This is not a babe. This is a stick insect in a
                      She is Manchu / Jurchen ... whose ancestors ruled
                      northern China when the Mongols invaded.
        \_ Why did the europeans move their capitals to america?
           \_ They did?  Wasn't London still the British capital back then, for
              \_ That's the capital for the folks left behind.
        \_ why not?  really, why not?  Things like this happened more often
           in history (not just in China) than you may have heard.
        \_ Because they knew their civilization sucked, and in the long run,
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han Civilization
                                                - Great Han Chauvinist
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han
           Civilization                  - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ ohh please, I can almost guarentee that you are a mutt too.
              It's impossible to find pure Han in China after thousands of
              years of wild sex.
              \_ can't you tell what is a troll?
                 \_ unfortunately, there are small number of people who really
                    think that way, I am afraid this is not.
                    \_ But you are wrong in this case.  Real Han Chauvinists
                       don't call themselves Chauvinist, except for this one
                       kook on the usenet.  By the way, do you have some
                       historical grievances against the Great Han
                       Civilization?  Did we subject your lesser barbaric
                       "civilization" to annual tribute of material goods
                       and beautiful women, as acknowledgement of our
                       superiority?  Did we administer a tender loving
                       chastisement on your minor tribe when you tried to rebel
                       like a naughty child?  Believe me, it's for your own
                       good, and only helps to pull you out of your miserable
                       stone-age barbaric existence.  Learn to live with it
                       or be conquered.  Either way you will be assimilated
                       into the Great Han Civilization.  Don't choose the
                       painful way.                - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ Why do you hate Mongols?
              \_ Goddamn Mongolian! You break down my shitty wall last time!
2004/6/17 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:30861 Activity:high
6/17    Good grief. Anita Mui has been dead how long and I find out through a
        side reference in a Salon article. Was there any mention in the Bay
        Area (English language) papers? -- ulysses
        \_ Who is (was) she?  Enlighten us please.
           \_ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611315  For the casual Western
              fan, she was the store manager in Rumble in the Bronx, but
              that's a lot like saying Charleton Heston's this guy who did
              a bit part in that Wayne's World II movie.
        \_ Not that I heard.  If you are interested in the HK entertainment
           circle and can't read Chinese, visit http://www.hkentreview.com  If you
           are a regular,  please leave a donation as the Canadian who runs
           the site is basically doing free translation for the rest of us.
2004/6/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:30613 Activity:nil
6/4     Hong Kong Vigil Remembers Tiananmen Square Killings
        "Hong Kong should become the foundation for Chinese people to pursue
        democracy" ... In an action certain to anger Beijing further, activists
        here have distributed flyers to mainland tourists this year for the
        first time, urging them to attend the candlelight vigil.
2004/6/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:30543 Activity:nil
6/2     Does anyone know the English name or the phone number of the Chinese
        restaurant in the western side of Richmond District in SF whose Chinese
        name translates to "second wife's great soup"?  TIA.
2004/5/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Media] UID:30380 Activity:very high
5/23    When can I get DVD of House of the Flying Daggers?
        \_ What's the Chinese name of the movie? link?
           \_ Shi Mian Mai Fu (Ambush from Ten Directions) starring
              Andy Lau, Zhang Ziyi and half-Japanese half-Taiwanese
              Jing Cheng Wu.
              \_ if you are going to use their English names, be consistent:
                 ^Jing Cheng Wu^Takeshi Kaneshiro
                 \_ I couldn't remember the Japanese name, and was too
                    lazy to google for it.  I don't know what you mean
                    by "English names".
                    \_ Names that you would use in English press to refer
                        to Chinese or HK movie stars.
                        eg. Cheung Man-Yuk == Maggie Cheung
                        \_ I wasn't going by the english press but rather the
                           most recognizable version of their names for those
                           who care about the movie.  granted jcw is commie-prc
                           romanization, but I think most taiwanese can
                           figure out the chinese characters and thus who I
                           was talking about from the romanization.
                           \_ As long as we're all talking about the same guy:
2004/5/6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:30043 Activity:moderate
5/6     Chinese diplomats rush past lab guards
        \_ This has only been reported in the Moonie Mag.  Wtf?
           \_ It was reported all sorts of places.  Your ignorance is not
              everyone else's problem.  Also, it is just plain silly to
              dismiss a paper because there's some association with some
              group you dislike.  You have never *once* been able to come
              up with any sort of misreporting or lying from the WT.  Take
              your anti-WT trolling elsewhere.
              \_ Whoa, chill out.  If it's been reported elsewhere, why
                 doesn't it appear in a search of Google News?  As for the
                 Washington Times' respectability, when a senior white house
                 correspondent resigns from a news-agency after years of
                 dedicated and exemplary service, doesn't that set your
                 spidey-sense tingling?
                 \_ Because your search fu is weak?
              \_ How many times did WT report that "WMD found!"
                 \_ I don't know.  You tell me since you seem to have so many
                    references that say that.
2004/4/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13396 Activity:nil
4/26    Yay!  China blocks Hong Kong vote in 2007-2008.
        username/pw:  csuamotd/csuamotd
        \_ Yay?
           \_ Maybe a sort of "I told you so?"
        \_ British ruled Hong Kong for 150 years, i wonder why no one
           ever complains about taxation without representation.
           \_ The western media/people does not want to hear the truth, they
              simply want every opportunity to bash China. You don't hear
              about the cry for the Brits to return the land they conquored
              during their colonial period do you? They returned most of it,
              but there are still areas they don't return because they've
              got bigger guns. Well, China got bigger guns, so cheer for them!
           \_ Repression in the past is not justification for repression
              in the present or the future.
        \_ So what, it's their country, they can do whatever the fuck they want,
           just like we can do whatever the fuck we want in our country and no
           one can say otherwise. Heck, we can do whatever the fuck we want
           around the world and no one can do shit about it either. Stop
           critizing about what China does on its own while we goes around the
           world and killing innocent lives for our SUV. Just shut the fuck up!
           I am sick and tired of hearing this shit.
           \_ Do we need to have a completely morally clean before we can
              criticise the loss of democracy in HK?  I think that we can
              agree that this is unequivocally a bad thing.  --jeffwong
           \_ Precisely, big boss goes around the street shooting people, and
              say to the little boss, Hey, you can't j-walk!!
              \_ I hear what you are saying but consider that some of us don't
                 give a rat's ass what sort of gov't Hong Kong ends up with. I
                 am just surprised to hear you being happy to have the PRC
                 take more control over your life, unless perhaps you are
                 not HK chinese and gloating, maybe?  -- ulysses
                 \_ Really, you don't give a rat's ass?  You are pretty cold.
                    Would you give a rat's ass 60 years ago?  -- ilyas
                    \_ Say what? -- ulysses
                       \_ You said: "Some of us don't give a rat's ass what
                          sort of [government] Hong Kong ends up with." Either
                          you were speaking for someone else needlessly, or you
                          were talking about yourself.  Either way, I find this
                          attitude of disregard for the fate of others rather
                          cold.  The example I gave involved the time 60 years
                          ago when there was some armed controversy over what
                          sort of government most of the world was going to end
                          up with.  Similar disregard regarding those times
                          would be seen as rather cold as well. -- ilyas
                 \_ In other words, you will be willing to let whoever rule
                    California, be it the Iraqies, Japanese, Korean,
                    Soviet, etc, as long as they do a better job than the US?
                    If some foreign power rips California from US, you'll bet
                    50+ years from now, we will not hestitate to take it back
                    any way we can, even though we might be in shitter position.
                    \_ Is rule by a foreign power still the issue in HK? I
                       wasn't aware the UK still held that particular
                       territory. I was under the impression that the issue was
                       one of how much autonomy HK is to have but perhaps I
                       was mistaken. To extend your analogy, though, would I
                       wish the US to re-take CA had CA, in those 50 years,
                       come to develop its own autonomous regime that I
                       regarded as less repressive than that in the US?
                       No I would not. As a Californian, I would seek to
                       preserve the new, independent CA. -- ulysses
                    \_ You are almost certainly describing Taiwan, not HK.
                       Please get your chicom trolls straight.
                       \_ Taiwan was a situation where there was an existing
                          Chinese government.  The Communists overthrew the
                          government, and the old government fled to Taiwan.
                          Both sides said they would eventually take out the
                          other side; neither did, and it's been 50+ years.
                          It's inaccurate, probably wrong, to say that the
                          situation described ("some foreign power rips
                          California from US") matches Taiwan.  A more accurate
                          analogy is if the Democrats overthrew Dubya, and
                          all the Republicans fled to Texus and seceded from
                          the Union, that persisted for 50+ years, and then
                          Pres. Chelsea Clinton was threatening to reunite
                          Texas with the USA.
                          \_ At the same time, the Soviet says will defend Texas
                             if the US decides to take it by force. I like
                             this anology, good job!
                          \_ Pres.? I think you mean dictator. Let's not
                             pretend the PRC is a representative government.
           \_ Wow, this is so clueless and out of perspective, I have no
              idea how to respond to it.  The sky is green!  Green I say!
              \_ PURPLE!
              \_ Yeah, as if you have a lot of clues about what's best for the
                 Chinese people. Ever been to China?
                 \_ Yes.
              \_ Amazing seeing how people who has never left their nest think
                 they know what's best for other places in the world. I know some
                 one like that, our commander in chief!! Yeah, who gives a rats
                 about the Iraqis, I know what's best for them and it's a puppet
                 government under my control. Too bad we can't do that to China,
                 but you can't blame us for not trying!
                 \_ Yeah, China into 50 pieces is good for the US and bad for
                    the them, but who cares!
                 \_ You could use the same argument to say that Beijing doesn't
                    know what's best for HK.
                    \_ I don't think it applies.  HK is in China's backyard and
                       historically was part of China.
                        \_ Hong Kong is almost a completely different country.
                           Hong Kong was only last part of China in 1899 and
                           nobody lived there.  The people of Hong Kong grew
                           up in a completely different education system
                           and without all of the communist ideological baggage
                           that they try to force feed you in the Mainland.
                           They barely speak the same language and they
                           have different writing systems.  Also, the
                           PEOPLE of HK have never been ruled from Beijing.
                           \_ "No body lived there"?? Then what the hell did the
                               Brits wants it for after the Opium War? Oh I get
                               it, the Brits are so nice, they took a waste land
                               from China and build a city on it.
                               \_ Actually, that's exactly what they did.
                                  You probably need to understand the
                                  difference between Hong Kong, Kowloon,
                                  and the New Territories.
                 \_ Don't be an idiot, and cut it with the red herrings
                    already.  The transfer the Hong Kong to China involved
                    a promise on the Chinese side to give HK a "high
                    degree of autonomy."  Now China is trying to
                    backtrack.  Britian has a perfect right to complain,
                    China is breaking a treaty with Britain!  Not to
                    mention, I may not know what's "best for the
                    Chinese" but I can be pretty dang sure it's not
                    concentration camps and a police state.  As for "never
                    left the nest" I spent two years in South Korea.  I'm
                    not saying this gives me credentials on Chinese
                    govenment, but your insult is completely baseless.
        \_ quote from article:
           ... the British foreign office minister for China and Hong Kong,
           called in China's ambassador in London to complain about the
           move, saying in a statement that it was "inconsistent with the
           `high degree of autonomy' which Hong Kong is guaranteed under the
           Joint Declaration." The declaration, by Britain and China in
           1984, cleared the way for Hong Kong's transfer to Chinese rule.
2004/4/23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13342 Activity:high
4/23    Read "In Beijing's Crushing Grip" at http://washingtonpost.com to see how
        fucked up China is.  Oh wait, they changed the title to "China
        Tightens Its Grip" this morning.  No password needed.  Oh wait,
        the title is now "A Study Group Crushed in China's Grip".
        http://tinyurl.com/2tmzu [URL added, yr welcome]
                \- You are being monitored: http://tinyurl.com/2h2xg --psb
                   \_ I knew it, Partha, you treacherous bastard! --erikred
        \_ One thing such stories make me curious about is why do people in the
           grip of a judicial system that is simply acting as a part of the
           authoritarian state imagine that defending their innocence - or
           others' innocence is going to do anything but expand the umbrella
           of suspicion? I ran across numerous such examples while studying
           recent history in the PRC as an undergrad. Sure Li comes off pretty
           badly in this article but without connections to local friends to
           visit in jail, it sounds like the only sensible thing. Defending
           them would only have landed his own ass in jail as well. -- ulysses
           \_ You want a war worth fighting?  Deposing the government of the
              PRC is that war.
              \_ obviously you still don't get it.  deposing is easy,
                 finding something to replace it is the tough part.
                 also, it's a job for the PRCers, not for you.  if
                 you try, they will get confused, and all 1.3 billion
                 of them will fight you, thinking you are the enemy,
                 even though you are just trying to help.
                 \_ Sigh. You're right, and yet, of all the regimes I most
                    want to see toppled, this is the crown jewel.  I wouldn't
                    even care if they chopped it up into fifty tiny ethnic
                    \_ Okay. I'll bite. Since there are much much more brutal
                       regimes and kleptocracies out there, most of them in
                       Africa, why is the PRC your crown jewel? I'm no fan
                       but they pale by comparison with many others in terms
                       of their unsavoriness as a regime. Why them? -- ulysses
        \_ give us soda's login please
           \_ csuamotd@csua.berkeley.edu, pwd=csuamotd
        \_ "Chinese Communist Party is engaged in the largest and perhaps
           most successful experiment in authoritarianism in the world."
           Largest maybe, but most successful?  Come on! Don't forget how
           much more effective NK is!
           \_ I am from Taiwan, and my first impression of the mainland
              is that I am impressed with the Communist's control structure.
           \_ Last time I check, USA wasn't able to rule Iraq too well.
              and Iraq is about 1/100 in size and only got 20 million people.
              \_ Well, yeah.  But what does that have to do with anything?
                 NK = North Korea
                 \_ large land mass, huge population, and different cultural
                    and ethnic mix make a land difficult to rule.  For example,
                    Singapore's government structure seems to work well with
                    Chinese, but it can not scale up thus can't apply to
                    the mainland.
                    \_ Yeah, whatever you North Korean playa hater.
        \_ "I am a liberal," he wrote, "and what I care about are human
           rights, freedom and democracy." Funny how in the US
           "liberal" means you're pro-communist!
        \_ In Communist China, School studies YOU.
        \_ Check out the picture.  Lu Kun has this big opportunity to show
           the western world her struggle... and what does she do?  Talks
           on her cell phone during the picture session.  Niiiiceee..
           \_ Hey, she told her computer geek husband she wanted a quiet
              life and that he should get rich like his buddies and settle
              into the middle class -- not start up a web site called
              "Yangzi's Home of Ideas" and join a pro-democracy group.
              \_ Huh, well I can't argue with that.
2004/4/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13103 Activity:nil
4/8     http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/international/asia/09DAMS.html
        yeh! Nu river saved from dam building project.
        china is a beautiful country.  please don't destroy it!
        \_ But the Three Gorges are still gone.
           \_ Only for the 35 years the dam will last before silt accumulation
              builds up enough to destroy it.
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12965 Activity:very high
4/1     The reason why PRC is keeping quiet about Taiwan election -
        \_ because PRC learned its lesson.  Last thing they want is TW
           nationals rallying against them.  If you know anything about
           Chinese Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           people rally against them.  If you know anything about Chinese
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
        \_ This article is filled with "I'm a moron" spin.  Another
           way you could spin it is that Chen's share of the vote increased
           from ~ 35-40% from the 2000 election to ~ 50% for 2004, China
           would find its own stability problematic if it decided to attack
           Taiwan and disrupt business, everyone in Taiwan already knew
           the referendums were totally political anyway, and whatever China
           has or hasn't done, Chen has been re-elected.  In fact, I would
           say that China has realized its previously asinine diplomatic
           approaches have been replaced with something more reasonable.
           \_ why the range of 35-40% ?  he got 39% in 2000 in a 3-way race.
              \_ maybe because I couldn't remember what the exact percentage
           \_ let's say if taiwan declares independence, and prc takes
              over all taiwan linked assets and factories in china, and
              cuts off all trade with taiwan (prc being taiwan's biggest
              export market).  is this a cost taiwan is willing to bear
              to move from status quo to independence?  for how long?
              \_ What if then the US freezes all trade to China?  Is this a
                 cost China is willing to bear by being aggressive to Taiwan?
                 For how long?
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                    \_ In order for China to attack Taiwan, it will need to
                       mass forces.  The U.S. will deploy a couple aircraft
                       carriers, deterring the amphibious assault.  China will
                       need a credible anti-carrier capability, which is why
                       it's developing GPS-guided cruise missiles.  If the U.S.
                       can somehow manage to maintain combat superiority,
                       China won't even try to mass forces.  In the
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                       \_ I doubt China will try to invade Taiwan.  Instead,
                          it may shoot a few missiles, send it's submarine
                          fleet around Taiwan and warn other countries to
                          refrain from sailing their ships there.  This
                          would bring the US fleet near Taiwan, and then
                          who knows what will happen.  US will likely be
                          pressuring Taiwan to backtrack on independence
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                          at that point.  Die hard Taiwan independence
                          advocates will wish the posturing will escalate
                          into a war between US and prc.
                          \_ The PRC is a loooong way from even thinking about
                             being able to take on the US Navy.  They might
                             sink a few ships but they'll lose *everything*
                             they've spent 20+ years building up in a few hours
                             and they know it.  If it was otherwise they would
                             have attacked already.
                             \_ clueless one. the prc doesn't need to take
                                on the US Navy.  All they need is to cut
                                off all trade with Taiwan and Taiwan is
                                economically dead.
                                \_ So is China.  China wouldn't cut off it's
                                   nose to spite their face.  Don't call me
                                   clueless until you've demonstrated superior
                                   knowledge or ability.  You've failed on both
                                   counts thus far.  China has only 2 options
                                   to retake Taiwan.  The Taiwanese vote to go
                                   back which is less likely each day or they
                          \_ Can't you just accept that people like political
           Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
                    be forced to do.
                        \_ nobody mentioned anything about "attack".
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
                    \_ "forced to do", hmmm.
                       \_ exactly.  which part of it do you not understand?
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.
                 \_ Chen will push and push, but PRC will finally draw a line,
                    and that's what I am referring to above.  stop nitpicking,
                    and wasting words.
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                             freedoms, people like personal freedoms,
                             they don't want the half-assed Hong Kong "Basic
                             Law" situation -- and they want anyone who would
                             take away those freedoms to go to hell?
                             Just ask all the KMT protesters (even though
                             they're all wrong).
                             \_ Taiwan already has political and personal
                                freedoms.  Taiwan independence is a
                                possible option in theory.  In reality
                                the cost is too high, especially
                                when Taiwan already has all the freedoms
                                under the current status quo.
                                \_ Except for the constant threat of Chinese
                                   invasion, yeah, sort of.
                                   \_ the problem has always been how to
                                      deal with the threat.  burying your
                                      skull in the sand doesn't help.
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                 \_ chen can push and push, but prc will draw a line somewhere,
                    and then the above actions is the minimal that the prc
                    will do.  It may be all at once or one step at a time
                    but it will go on until taiwan backs down.  it doesn't
                    need to fire a shot, and taiwan's economy would be in
                    ruins.  Is that a cost taiwan is willing to pay to go
                    from status quo (note: nobody is talking about being
                    subject to prc rule here) to independence?  United
                    States has been protecting Taiwan for the past half
                    a century.  Instead of being grateful, should Taiwan
                    insist on demanding that Americans spill blood for
                    them, moving in a direction that would be economically
                    devastating to Taiwan, China, US and all east asian
                    nations?  President Bush has repeatedly pleaded with
                    Chen to tone down because Chen's actions are not in the
                    interest of the United States.
                    \_ It's just a matter of time.  One day China will be
                       strong enough to go for it.  Taiwan can't do a thing to
                       stop that.  When that day comes the US can defend or not
                       defend Taiwan.  If the US chooses to defend Taiwan then
                       pray the Chinese have underestimated US navy power.  If
                       the US backs down it is the end of US super power status
                       and the start of another 50 year cold war the whole
                       world will suffer through.
                       \_ Last two posters, will you please speak in specifics?
                          "One day China will be strong enough to go for it".
                          I could just as easily say:  One day China will
                          have a democratic revolution, and Taiwan will join
                          China's democracy once everything has settled down.
                          Both seem equally believable to me, especially since
                          China is *vastly* outclassed by U.S. naval and
                          air power, and the U.S. will make a good effort
                          to keep up its military superiority if China
                          advances far enough.
                          \_ Specifically, "go for it" = "invade".  You could
                             just as easily say your butt is made of green
                             cheese (just like the moon), but it is not equally
                             likely.  If you find the cheese theory and the
                             China invasion theory equally believable then I've
                             got a bridge in Florida to sell you.  China doesnt
                             have to have a better navy/af.  They only have to
                             be superior in the local region.  If they can
                             pull a fast one and cripple local US navy forces
                             and put a few 10s of thousands of men on Taiwan
                             before US reinforcements can show up they've won.
                             There will be some bogus peace treaty signed and
                             Taiwan will vanish into the history books as a
                             minor blurb in some grey side panel box.
                          \_ Die hard Taiwan independence supporters doesn't
                             care whether China becomes democratic or not.
                             They want independence at all cost.  They are
                             driven in a large part by past hatred rather
                             than a vision for the future.
                             \_ Quick question, what's wrong with wanting
                                independence for its own sake?  -- ilyas
                                \_ Exactly.  I'm with you on that one.
                                \_ look, if you can magically turn china
                                   into a brunei, then go ahead with
                                   independence with my full support.
                                   Unlike freedoms or democracy, which
                                   is by nature good, political
                                   independence is neutral in itself.
                                   Its merits is dependent on how well it
                                   will work for the people in practice.
                       \_ China will never be militarily stronger than the
                          US.  The problem is, it doesn't need to be.  It
                          can totally screw up Taiwan's economic livelihood
                          without firing a shot.  Stop trolling.
                          \_ Never?  Ever?  History is full of dead and
                             defeated super powers that would rule the world
                             *forever* or so they thought.  No one on this
                             thread is trolling.  Some of us simply disagree
                             with you.  That is *not* trolling.  You want
                             trolls?  There are plenty of trolls on the other
                             motd threads right now, but not here.
                             \_ Except that the world is now just a big
                                village.  And in a small contained
                                world, once one party attains the upper
                                hand, it will only get stronger and
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12917 Activity:very high
3/29    Isn't the PRC fascist? Why do people still refer to it as communist?
        It fits perfectly with fascism but is not communist at all. Right?
        \_ american is fascist too.
                \_ Cool!  ChiCom troll is back!  I was afraid he'd been
                   sent to re-education, or promoted to peoples' regional
                   secretary for truth or something!  Hi, ChiCom Troll!  -John
                   \_ this is your problem.  Saying PRC is a fascist is not
                      considered as troll, but saying American is fascist
                      \_ Was I commenting on your content?  Your reading
                         comprehension is as poor as your grammar.  Doesn't
                         speak highly for ChiCom peoples' education.  Welcome
                         back, ChiCom troll!  -John
                         \_ You're being silly.  He is not the real chicom
                            troll.  Just arrived at work, eh?
                            \_ ChiCom troll is not person, it attitude.
                               Back to highschool, stupid american.  -John
                               \_ nah, he's the best friend you day dream
                                  about everyday at work.
                                  \_ Yermom's not a day dream, and she's not
                                     my best friend, she's on my lap.
                                     \_ masterbating at work again, eh?
                               \_ nah, he's your imaginary best friend
                                  you day dream about at work.
           \_ Along with Republicanism...
        \_ no.
        \_ Communism is just one insidious type of fascism.
           \_ Not really. It's just that people choose to keep calling
              something communism that isn't communism.
                \- helo it is an interesting question whether communism and
                   fascism, call them totalitarian ideologies, are essentially
                   identical due to structural factors or the "substance
                   of the ideology" rather than the structure [say class vs
                   nation/ethnic focus] plays the dominant role in defining
                   its character. you may wish to read "Revolutionary Change"
                   written by Chamlers Johnson before he went insane or this
                   book by R. Paxton: http://csua.org/u/6nx ok tnx. --psb
                   \_ Communism is not a totalitarian ideology per se, it is
                      an economic system which can only be achieved by
                      compulsion.  (One wonders sometimes if this is true, to
                      some extent, of any civilized economic system which
                      relies on abstractions such as property).  Fascism is a
                      more complicated concept, but I don't believe it needs to
                      be necessarily totalitarian either.  Most people who
                      accuse people or states of fascism these days (e.g. "Bush
                      is fascist!") have no idea what the word means.  I don't
                      believe fascism and communism have anything in common,
                      aside from the fact that they lend 'color' or 'charge',
                      if you like, to government.  Twentieth century made a
                      convincing case that governments should remain as
                      colorless as possible. -- ilyas
                      \- per se, communism isnt communism per se. --psb
                         \_ That's nice, Partha. -- ilyas
                            \- not as good as: "The women at fandom cons are
                               bi and large, by and large." --psb
                      \_ What does it mean? that's my real question. I did do
                         some reading on it now and I see why the PRC doesn't
                         really fit that term. But, I can also see how aspects
                         associated with fascism can be used by both PRC
                         and USA (appeals to nationalism, fearmongering,
                         scapegoating, militarism/patriotism, propaganda).
                         But I think authoritarianism is intrinsic to fascism.
                         The only communism we've seen is the Stalinist brand
                         of totalitarianism. Modern China with its economic
                         ventures seems to have abandoned communism.
                         \_ yes, China have abandoned communism since 1985,
                            *YEARS* before Berlin Wall came down.
                            \_ nonsense.  the government still controls the
                               entire economy.  just because you're now allowed
                               to own an apple cart or a small factory that
                               makes a few widgets doesn't mean they've
                                \_ ussr?  ussr is no more.  otoh, russia under
                                   putin has wisely decided to follow in
                                   china's path of capitalism under strong
                                   authoritarian rule, reversing russia's failed
                                   experiment with democracy.  this was also
                                   the proven path followed by many US allies
                                   such as japan, s.korea, taiwan, singapore.
                                   and the world is voting with their hard
                                   earned money pouring them into russia and
                                   china.  check out stock symbol mbt or vip,
                                   i am buying a beemer using earnings from
                                   those stocks.  the only people who can
                                   attain democracy and capitalism in the
                                   reverse order are the indians, and even
                                   then, it's under strong nationalistic
                                   leadership of the BJP party.
                            *YEARS* before Berlin Wall came down.
                               suddenly turned into a capitalist society.  they
                               have only just caught up to where stalin's
                               ussr was more than 50 years ago.
                         \_ Actually I take it back.  Classic, Mussolini-style
                            fascism cannot help but be totalitarian in human
                            societies. -- ilyas
                                      \-YMWTGF(ant, spider, bee, bacon) --psb
                            \_ human societies?
                               \_ The Bugs are facist by nature.
                                      \-YMWTGF(ant, spider, bee, bacon) --psb
                                        \_ bugs aren't totalitarian.
                                  \_ Not necessarily bugs.  Humans are just not
                                     collectivist enough, they like small packs.
                                     An interesting take on how a collectivist
                                     human society would come about, see
                   book by R. Paxton: http://csua.org/u/6nx ok tnx. --psb
                                     collectivist enough, they like small packs.
                                       -- ilyas
                                     Herbert's "Hellstrom's Hive" (yes, same
                                     Herbert). -- ilyas
                                     \_ if humans were collectivist like bugs
                                        we'd be doing about as well which is
                                        to say not very well at all overall.
                                         \- sort of like france :-) --psb
                   \_ Why nobody ever complains that psb write incoherent
                      English sentences?
                      \_ because we know he could form coherent sentences
                         if he wanted to. otoh, we can and do complain that
                         he's a lazy bastard.
        \_ nah, it's better described as authoritarian planned-economy
                 \- sort of like france :-) --psb
                    \_ "A specter is haunting Europe..." -- ilyas
2004/3/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:12894 Activity:nil 50%like:29883
3/27    I have been using bigzoo to call china, but the line quality is pretty
        bad, with long delay and echos.  Anything better out there?  Any
        10-10 plan with no monthly charge/minimum?
        \_ http://www.vonage.com
           This stuff's pretty cool. You need a decent broadband connection
           but you can say goodbye to SBC for almost everything (you still
           need them for DSL). I used my friend's box to call Germany and
           it worked like a charm. The line quality was crystal clear and
           it worked transparently. There's a $15 monthly charge. I think
           Circuit City has a promotion.
2004/3/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Religion] UID:12768 Activity:nil
3/19    Why does whitey hate the Asian man so much?
        \_ They didn't like him b/c he's Muslim.  At least get your trolling
        \_ whiteys hate muslims more than they hate azns, get it right
           \_ Yeah but muslim and azn is more than whitey can even stand
              thinking about.
        \_ A Chinese born of Christian parents who converted to Islam and bred
           with a Syrian and fucked a White soldier's wife and felt Pity for
           captives of the State (a christian virtue) and looked at porn when
           he became horny.  He is guilty as hell.
        \_ why ask why? whitey is evil and must be destroyed along with the
           zionist entity and anyone to the right of b.boxer.
2004/3/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12652 Activity:kinda low
3/12    To the guy I was having the discussing about Chinese Characters
        in Korea with:
          I talked to my wife, and she told me that for a short time
        in the early 80's, Chinese Characters were not taught in
        middle and high school and there was no chinese literature course.
        That may have been the ban your friend was referring to.
        One other point about Koreas not being able to understand classic
        lit. Before the korean writing system was developed in the 1500s
        they used a wierd system called Naboo that was all chinese
        characters but some were meant to be read as their chinese meaning
        and some as their Korean pronuciation (to spell a Korean word).
        The exact meaning of passages in these writings cannot be clearly
        ascertained by anyone anymore.  (1 word being read 2 diffrent ways
        could have 2 different yet vaild meanings.)
        \_ ha ha losers... the Japanese have a system where every Chinese
           character has at LEAST 2 readings and sometimes more than 2
        \_ Strange... I am a Chinese and I don't read a word of Korean, but
           when I was reading some of the ancient Korean text around 1600 or
           so, I sware I was able to read 70% of the text and actually
           understand what they are saying.  The text I read was the passage
           written by (or behave of) King Sejong, explaining inventing
           Hangul jamo as a way to enhance literacy among the common people.
           \_ Not all anchient writings were like this.  There were also
              documents written in plain ol' chinese.  But actually
              my wife seems to think that's written all in actual
              phonetic Korean.  Maybe it was a translation?
              \_ I know what I am reading, and I am literate enough to
                 tell the differences between Chinese text and some foreign
                 text with whole bunch Chinese characters in it.  -kngharv
              \_ Korean scholars were all bilingual until pretty recently.
                 Actually Korean imported Chinese culture (confucianism and
                 Chinese characters) long before they developed their own
                 writing system (which I think happened during the Monloglian
                 occupation).  And that writing system was used exclusively
                 for the peasant and lower class while scholars used classic
                 Chinese for docuument and literature until last century.
                 \_ is that true that most of the official document in Korean
                    imperial court are written in Chinese characters?
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/3/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12649 Activity:nil
3/12    So Taiwan seems to be a pretty developed country, why is it still
        considered a third world country?
        \_ state your source.
        \_ because they are not yet white and the quota for nonwhite is 1.
           \_ idiot, why do you even bother wasting bits with your racist
              hateful shit?
           \_ did you really go to cal?
        \_ because they don't have the political, economic, military, or
           diplomatic power to be considered a major power.
           \_ don't forget the congressional brawls.
              \_ hey, we've got them too now! - random Korean guy
        \_ Taiwan is *NOT* a developed region,  not even close.  For one thing
           Taiwan is lack of rule of law.  This is a major issue which most
           American has overlooked because it is not as cachy as "democracy"
           and "human right" etc et.  Mind you that rule of law is the
           fundamental building block of democratic government, and a democracy
           without rule of law is actually in many ways more chaotic than
           dictatorial form of government.  Things you have taken for granted,
           such as (relatively) independent judicial branch does not exist
           here.  Law enforcement is selective, tend to be charged with either
           political motive or influenced by bribe.

           Infrasture wise, when you step out of Taipei, you will find that
           Taiwan is still pretty damn underdeveloped.

           Even in Taipei City... give you an example, the waste water
           treatment plant just went online recently.  Can you imagine a city
           of 1.7 million live on local septic tanks?

           Lastly, Taiwan is not a country.  The Constitution of Republic
           of China state that Taiwan is part of China and the constitution
           is designed for entire China in mind.  Read them if you can actually
           read Chinese.
           \_ I like that argument for the annexation of Taiwan.  "Our
              Constitution says so!"  If only the Germans had amended
              their Constitution to say Austria, Poland, the Low Lands,
              France, etc. were a part of the Reich, there wouldn't have been
              a problem!  And before you bring this up, most of those
              territories (along with Spain) were in fact Hapsburg possessions,
              and part of the Holy Roman Empire at one point or another.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Haha, there may be problems in his argument, but not the one
                 you are dwelling on.  He was referrring the consistituion of
                 ROC (i.e. taiwan), which claims it to be part of China.  You
                 made fun of yourself, again.
                 \_ Ok.  Show me where:
                      -- ilyas
                   \_ I don't have to.  I don't care about taiwan or china or
                      roman empire.  I just saw you misread another post in
                      such an obvious way and went ahead pouring your vast
                      "intelligence."  You should ask the guy to whom you
                      original replied to show that and thank me for helping
                      with your reading comprehension.
                      \_ I don't know.  Are you sure you schooled me?
                         Taiwanese constitution doesn't say (or at least
                         I couldn't find anything about this) "Taiwan" is a
                         part of "China".  It was merely a non-communist
                         constitution which was meant to apply to all of
                         china once the nationalists won.  They never did,
                         and it applies to a small island instead.  If you
                         really want your 10 motd points, you can have them,
                         however. -- ilyas
                         \_ The constitution specifically said that no one
                            allowed to alter the soverign territory of
                            the Republic of China, and at the time, the
                            constitution covers entire chinese mainland.
                            and this claus of contitution still exists.
                                - someone who actually can read chinese
                                  and read the damn constitution, unlike ilyas
                         \_ It has nothing to do with what any constitution
                            says, but has everything to do with the carrier
                            we want to buy from ebay for you.  I donate the
                            10 points toward its purchase.
                            \_ Tell you what.  How about I spare you the
                               trouble of replying to me in the future.  I am
                               nothing but a stuck-up, stupid, rabidly
                               libertarian, selfish, blind, easily offended,
                               unattractive, smelly, kooky, ridiculous,
                               no life loser with the attention span and
                               reading comprehension abilities of a 10
                               year old.  I should fuck off and die like my
                               libertarian ilk, and keep my rabid
                               politico-sexual fantasies to myself.  Can we
                               just agree on that?  I default on all the motd
                               points.  Any future argument between us you win
                               automatically.  I accept any remotely clever
                               jokes you make at my expense in advance.  I
                               surrender unconditionally.  -- ilyas
                               \_ You're not allowed to.  Sorry, but you lose
                                  on losing, too.  That's impressive!
           \_ Yes, outside of the big cities, there are people living
              at shocking levels of poverty.  It's really quite
              frightening, and the gov. seems uninterested in changing
              \_ When I swang by the mainland China, I was shocked by the
                 difference in standard of living between the city and
                 the country side (and I didn't even wonder off to any
                 really poor country side neither).   For a moment, I thought
                 Taiwan is much better in this regard.  Then, I realize
                 that I *RARELY* step outside the Taipei city.
                 \_ just because you rarely see outside of taipei doesn't mean
                    taiwan is full of countrysides with poor rural bumpkins.
                    taiwan is much better in this regard.
                    \_ I don't dispute that.  However, Taiwan is much smaller
                       and at least in my view should of done a better job
                       closing the gap between the country side and the city
                       than what is on the table right now.
           \_ I am not very familiar with Taiwan's government system,
              but are you sure about your claim that Taiwan does not
              have an independent judiciary branch?  Can you back it
              up?  I read a book or two by Li3 Ao2, and even under
              KMT rule (under CCG, I presume?), which he sharply criticized,
              he was able to win case after case in the courts.  That
              would be unthinkable in say, commie China.
              \_ I am sure, because I live in TW right now and I have heard
                 enough share of horror stories, to a point that I had to
                 constantly remind myself that this is not the way things
                 suppose to work.  The supreme court, for example, is extremely
                 weak and they are subject to president's political pressue.
                 This is one of the reason why nobody ever bother to ask the
                 supreme court to interpret the legality of laws and the
                 referendum conducted solely by the president right now.
                 The prosecutor general is essentially a servant of the
                 president.  Those who doesn't cooperate, including judges
                 and people on the prosecution team, gets rotated out of the
                 trial while the trial is in progress.
        \_ When I was in Singapore, I remember once where some international
           organization reclassified Singapore as a developed nation.
           The local government controlled media started trumpeting the
           achievement all over the place.  Then PM Lee Kuan Yew spoke up
           and says Singapore is still a third world country.  Lee Kuan
           Yew is smart because one still gets some advantages (trade,
           loan, etc.) by being a third world country in name.  The
           government controlled media then did a full reverse course
           and started pumping out articles on why Singapore is not yet
           a developed nation.  It was kind of funny.
           \_ Funny in the way that government controlled media is funny.
                \_ pray tell us how else could it have been funny?
                   \_ exactly my point.
        \_ Guys, you shouldn't compare everything with US.  America is an
           exceptional country, one which is founded on a sound principle
           and evolve along a sound trajectory, has always had an unbiased
           judiciary and a functining democracy.  If you have to measure
           against the US, then no other country is developed.
           \_ blah blah america is bad, the worlds problems are all our fault
              and if it wasnt for america the world would be utopia, so lets
              just raise taxes, slash the military to ribbons and pay off the
              rest of the world to like us because their liking is us is so
              important as if international politics was a playground game
2004/3/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12635 Activity:high
3/12    Why does the Chinese govt. care about forcing WiFi chipset makers to
        support WAPI?  Is it beaurocrat muscle-flexing, technical advantages
        of the spec, or added dissident-spying features?
        \_ They know they have a lot of market muscle. So they want to use
           that to help the Chinese tech industry. Foreign companies have to
           license WAPI from China and basically share technical know-how
           when implementing it. There's no real technical reason for it.
           They're trying to do this with DVDs as well, with their "EVD".
           I understand the logic, but still think it's a bad way to go about
           it. When they split the market for everything it's just annoying
           for people who travel, and for companies who need to make the
           different versions. But hey, more useless tech jobs for us!
        \_ The reason is actually a lot benign than that.  China, like
           rest of the (semi-conductor) manufacturing powerhouse, need to pay
           royalties for producing equipment that is in compliant of the
           standards adopted by the West. This Royalties and license fees
           can be a significant cost to the equipment they manufacturs.
           Unlike Korea, or Taiwan or Singapore, which essentially said:
           "we got bullied, but there is nothing we can do about it."  China
           is flexing its market muscle, coming up with thier own standards
           so they don't have to pay those IP-related fees.  Wifi is just one
           of many moves that China made recently (heard of TDS-CDMA?).
           Where to go from here is anyone's guess.  If I am the Premier of
           China, I would eventually use these home-grown stardards to
           influence the existing one, thus, neogiate a better term for
           licensing technology such as GSM and other specifications.
           However, there is an undercurrent of unreasonable national pride
           beneath all these, which may cause Chinese market isolated from
           rest of the world... similiar to what happened to USA and Japan.
           And... China's market is going to be too big to be ignored by
           anyone and thus, they can get away with all that.
           \_ I was unaware that there are royalties for WEP...
                \_ I thought WEP encryption was lame anyway?
           \_ Everyone keeps saying China's market is too big to ignore but
              doesn't most of China still live in small villages growing rice?
              \_ you are correct.  the rural urban breakup has gone from
                 80-20 to 70-30, but it is still mostly rural. OTOH, 30%
                 of 1.3 billion ain't bad.  WSJ says China is already
                 the world's biggest beer market.  I didn't read the
                 details but I would guess it's by volume consumed not
                 average price * volume consumed, cause they drink quite
                 a bit of cheap local brew.
                 \_ So are you saying the 'China is a huge market' thing is
                    for real or bullshit?
                    \_ I am saying it's a huge market for beer.
                       \_ But only cheap local beer, right?
                 of 1.3 billion ain't bad.
           \_ Well said.
           \_ So it's basically "We're really big.  If you want to sell us
              stuff you'll have to give us tech know-how and a discount on
                \_ the WSJ had a story a few weeks ago about how GE
                   wanted to sell power turbines to the Chinese market,
                   but in return the Chinese government wanted significant
                   discounts AND the plans to the technology used in
                   making the turbines so they can make it themselves
                   cheaper down the road, stuff that GE has invested billions
                   in over the years.
                   \_ Was GE stupid enough to do this?
                      \_ According to the article, they reached a compromise
                         - some technology transfer but the most leading
                         edge part was kept secret.  GE had to compromise
                         a little because otherwise China will just go to
                         European companies.  The good thing is, as the
                         article noted, often the transferred technology
                         quickly becomes outdated as even newer technology
                         becomes available.  The technology itself is
                         important, but even more important is the ability
                         to invent new technologies.
                         \_ I remember the article quoting a chinese
                            manager saying that, in technology transfers,
                            the foreign companies show them what to do,
                            but not why they do it, and not how they discover
                         to invent new technologies.
                            that's the way to do it.
2004/3/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12628 Activity:nil
3/11    Does anyone know where I can buy one of those Flying Tigers
        leather jacket with a ROC flag at the back.  I want to buy one
        in remembrance of what Americans have done for my country and
        my people (and it looks cool too).      - chinese dude
        \_ Aw come on.  Chennault was a twink who never accomplished anything
           of signifance other than getting the Japanese to blow up his
2004/3/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Languages] UID:12621 Activity:high
3/11    Is Italian the closest language to Latin than other Romantic language?
        Isn't it weird that the once great empire has no spoken/written
        language today, but that other old languages from the old empires
        (Greek, Chinese, etc) still survive?
                \- helo you may wish to see ~psb/MOTD/LatinRomeGreece
        \_ Roman empire was a lot more multicultural than those other two...
           The various states spoke their native languages with Latin as
           a government/trade language.  Also, "Chinese" is not one language.
           Note that Korean, Vietnamese, and Japanese were all once
           written with Chinese characters!
           \_ why isn't chinese one language?  the spoken form is different
              region to region, by written is essentially the same.
              \_Chinese is one language. It just has many dialects. Also note
                that Korean, Vietnamese, and Japanese are essentially dialects
                from Chinese if you express them in Chinese text. In a sense,
                all Romance languages are merely dialects of latin. It's just
                that unlike Chinese there was no unification and the written
                text became fragmented. English itself has various dialects,
                but because of faster travel, radio, and television the dialects
                have tended to remain understandable instead of morphing into
                something very different. However, I have trouble sometimes
                with Punjabees speaking their version of English.
                \_ The Roman alphabet is phonetic.  If written
                   Chinese was phonetic, then there might be more of an
                   argument that the difference Chinese dialects were distinct
                   languages.  Likewise, if the differences in speaking the
                   different Romance languages were not reflected in the
                   written language, it might be easier to argue that they are
                   dialects of Latin rather than distinct lanugages.
                   \_ Modern written Vietnamese is phonetic. There is a
                      way of writing Vietnamese that uses Chinese characters,
                      but this is considered archaic now.
        \_ Italian is closer to latin than Old Greek is to Modern Greek.
        \_ 1.  Latin survives/freezes in some quarters (RCC).  2.  Romanian is
           quite close to Latin.  3.  Living languages evolve: modern chinese
           is quite different from ancient Chinese.  (I speak and write the
           former but have a (very) limited capability for the latter.)  Greeks
           told me similar things about their language.  Hebrew is today like
           what it was many years ago because it had been dead in between.
           4.  By western liguist's definition, different Chinese dialects
           can be considered as different languages (with some slightly
           different but overall similar grammar rules).  Some Chinese consider
           spanish, french, and italian as different dialects of the same
           language used to be known as latin.  5.  There is a distinction
           between the spoken language (the tongue) and its representation
           in terms of writing.  6.  Japanese and Korean are NOT dialects
           of Chinese.  They are probably in a totaly different linguistic
           family although the details are not yet understood.They borrowed
           Chinese character and many chinese words (along with their old
           pronunciation) when they decided they should have a system of
           writing their language - they developed writing much later.
           However, the 2 koreas banned the use of Chinese characters in late
           last century when they go nationalistic.  7.  I don't know whether
           \_ I'm not sure what you mean here.  While true that, in the
              north Chinese characters are more or less banned, and they
              are trying to get away from using Chinese based words, this
              is not at all true in the south.  You can see pleanty of
              Chinese characters in the south, and most people's names
              are written in Chinese.  60% of the vocabulary is chinese
              based.  Chinese has not be "banned."  Now it HAS falled out
              of use, because chinese characters are a terrible way to
              write Korean.  Korean is not a chinese language.  The
              grammar is not chinese, and 40% of the words are pure
              Korean, and can't be reliably WRITTEN in chinese.  Korean
              and Japanese are Altaic languages with a butt-load of
              borrowed chinese vocabulary.
              \_ I have been told by a american professor specialising in the
                 2 koreas that Chinese characters have been banned from use
                 in literature and koreans can no longer read their own classic
                 literature directly (i.e. w/o translation) because they were
                 all written in Chinese (as Principia was written in Latin).
                 I knew (and wrote) that Korean language is completely
                 different from Chinese.  However, that it and Japanese
                 are really from the Altaic group is not firmly extablished
                 (as say Sanskrit and Latin came from the same family).
                 Plus the japanese always claim they have nothing to do with
                 korean, although I never believed that.
           Vietnamese is in the same linguistic family as Chinese but their
           current writing system was developed by the french.  8.  The eastern
           roman empire used greek.  9.  The roman empire was not "more"
           multicultural than the other empires of similar size.
2004/3/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12582 Activity:nil
3/9     Read businessweek online issue on 'china.net'.  Lots of stories on
        internet activities in china.  Anybody thinking of moving back to
        china or taiwan to start companies?  I've been thinking about going
        back to TW to start an online gaming company.  DSL penetration is
        pretty high.
        \_ let me know if you do please!        -brain
        \_ in the same vein (is there a latin term for that expression?),
           does anyone have any Indian tech connections? I have an idea for
           outsourcing (not HiTech related) to India but don't have the
           \_ mail me.  - rory
        \_ "Online gaming company", you mean developing online games, or what?
           \_ I think he means online sex chat
              \_ No wonder DSL penetration is so important!
                 \_ I would think penetration not important for online sex.
           \_ He said "gaming" which is gambling, not "game".
        \_ An ex-boss went there 2 years ago.  He has a company, website, etc,
           but I don't think he has final product or beta customer 1.
        \_ I wanna make the China version of Yahoo Maps / Mapquest.
           Anyone here has any experience?  eg. Worked at Navtech?
           We can start with like Beijing and move on from there.
           \_ Do people there really have a need for a service like that?
              \_ I am sure there is.  Hwy system and car ownership are
                 exploding.  Biggest problem is probably that the road
                 system is changing and expanding too fast.
           \_ Instead of driving direction from pt A to pt B, you can provide
              transit directions from pt A to pt B.  --- yuen
           \_ In Taiwan right now, and talked to friends from the mainland
              regards to LBS service.  The main issue is that, unlike USA,
              which essentially gave out GIS map of entire country for free
              (TIGER db), in both mainland China and Taiwan, GIS Maps has to be
              purchased.  I am less familiar with what is going on in the
              mainland, but in Taiwan, first, the government actually holds
              copyright on these maps, secondly, the government impose a very
              restrictive license on how the map can be used, and charge a
              very handsome sum for "value-added redistribution."
              Second issue is less difficult.  There is simply no good Chinese
              parser out there to tokenize addresses.

              In taiwan, life get even more complicated because maps are
              controlled by several different government agencies.

              The main obsticle is that Chinese people on both strait treat
              map as some sort of military secret, and very reluctant to
              release them to civilian use.

              If you are interested in this kind of things, email me, as I
              am in the process of getting street maps of Taipei to play
              with (which going to cost me $150 USD just for personal use).
              \_ You mean in Taiwan tourists can't buy somthing like "Map of
                 Taipei" at a bookstore for a few bucks?
              \_ I don't get the tokenize address part.  Just let the
                 user enter the address as seperate fields.  Take my
                 aunt's address (using commie romanization):
                 tai2 bei3 (taipei city), xin1 dian4 (subdivision), zhong1
                 zheng4 lu4 (road), wu3 hao4 (number)
                 If they write it all together, sure, but if it's entered
                 in seperate fields or with a delimiter, I don't see
                 what's the difficulty.
2004/2/20-21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Networking] UID:12329 Activity:nil
2/20    http://www.viennateng.com  She's a stanford grad in CS.  Worked as SW
        engineer at Cisco for a while before quitting and becoming a
        singer.  She's better than William Hung.  :-) Here's a link to
        a NPR interview with her:
        \_ I don't think Vienna Teng is her real name.
        \_ beatiful voice. she is not that ugly neither. :p
           \_ not that hot either
              \_ she looks like Bruce Lee
              \_ this one looks worse than the others
                And will-hung's look is not bad.  It's just his software
                seems weak.
                \_ She's a MAN, baby!
                   \_ who?
2004/2/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:29799 Activity:nil 61%like:29794
2/10    How to display column number in emacs? Thanks.
        [ relevant responses moved to the top ]
        \_ (custom-set-variables '(column-number-mode t))
        \_ (setq column-number-mode t)
        \_ I'm always baffled at motd posters who (1) ask questions that
           begin with the grammatically incorrect "How to..." and (2)
           don't konw how to use http://google.com.
           \_ you are baffled too easily. (1) you can tell the guy is
              a fob and (2) not the brightest bulb in the bunch.
              \_ so (3) ship him back.
           \_ Is "Investing How To Guide" grammatically correct?
              \_ No, it isn't, but that's no excuse for poor grammar elsewhere.
           \_ I'm so sick of all this grammar-correcting motd bullshit.
              Isn't there some saying like "if someone speaks english
              worse than you it probably means they speak some 2nd
              language better" ? that is hippie bumpersticker talk,
              but a relevant point nonetheless. get a life. anyway,
              you're probably just jealous because some fob with
              broken english got that chinese girl you were oggling in
              \_ No, this whole asking a question with "How to..." has
                 been brought up over and over on the motd (check the
                 archives). If you make a mistake, it's okay. But if
                 someone corrects you over and over again and you haven't
                 learned your lesson then there's really something wrong
                 with you. You should at least TRY.
                 \_ TRY to get over it, you mean? yes, people have posted
                    this way, and people have continued to bitch about it.
                    so why dont the bitchers just get used to it. frankly,
                    i am a quite competent english speaker but
                    occasionally find that phrasing quick and convenient.
                    isn't computer stuff all about shorthand anyway? and
                    furthermore, its vaguely reminiscent of the whole
                    Linux how-to culture.
              \_ have you actually looked at the chinese girls on campus?  and
                 no, generally bi-lingual people are shitty are both languages.
                               \- would you care to name an authority
                                  who recommends hyphenating the word
                                  "bi-lingual" [sic] ? --psb
                 being better at some third world language is useless if you're
                 in a first world english speaking country.
                 \_ really?  chang-lin tien's english kind of sucks, yet
                    he functioned pretty well, and his chinese came in
                    useful in persuading chinese tycoons like tan kah kee
                    to part with their hard earned money.  Being bi-
                    lingual is a fantastic advantage.
                    \_ it probably helped that he wasn't dumb.
           \- dear anonymous motd grammar coward: if you are willing to
              de-anonimize yourself, i am willing to give you a
              little grammar quiz, and we can really plumb the depth of
              your grammar chops or see if you are YetAnotherRatcheter.
                                 --psb, third world lanaguage speaker
              \_ so, what's this grammar quiz you speak of? let's see it.
              \_ Oh dear! Here goes psb again with his "holier than
                 thou" crap. Partha, don't you have a degree to earn?
                 \- how am i being holier than thou? i am perhaps throwing
                    down the glove. --psb
              \_ lanaguage eh?
2004/2/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:29794 Activity:very high 61%like:29799
2/10    How to display column number in emacs? Thanks.
        \_ I'm always baffled at motd posters who (1) ask questions that
           begin with the grammatically incorrect "How to..." and (2)
           don't konw how to use http://google.com.
           \_ you are baffled too easily. (1) you can tell the guy is
              a fob and (2) not the brightest bulb in the bunch.
              \_ so (3) ship him back.
           \_ Is "Investing How To Guide" grammatically correct?
              \_ No, it isn't, but that's no excuse for poor grammar elsewhere.
           \_ I'm so sick of all this grammar-correcting motd bullshit.
              Isn't there some saying like "if someone speaks english
              worse than you it probably means they speak some 2nd
              language better" ? that is hippie bumpersticker talk,
              but a relevant point nonetheless. get a life. anyway,
              you're probably just jealous because some fob with
              broken english got that chinese girl you were oggling in
              \_ No, this whole asking a question with "How to..." has
                 been brought up over and over on the motd (check the
                 archives). If you make a mistake, it's okay. But if
                 someone corrects you over and over again and you haven't
                 learned your lesson then there's really something wrong
                 with you. You should at least TRY.
              \_ have you actually looked at the chinese girls on campus?  and
                 no, generally bi-lingual people are shitty are both languages.
                 being better at some third world language is useless if you're
                 in a first world english speaking country.
                 \_ really?  chang-lin tien's english kind of sucks, yet
                    he functioned pretty well, and his chinese came in
                    useful in persuading chinese tycoons like tan kah kee
                    to part with their hard earned money.  Being bi-
                    lingual is a fantastic advantage.
                    \_ it probably helped that he wasn't dumb.
        \_ (custom-set-variables '(column-number-mode t))
           \- dear anonymous motd grammar coward: if you are willing to
              de-anonimize yourself, i am willing to give you a
              little grammar quiz, and we can really plumb the depth of
              your grammar chops or see if you are YetAnotherRatcheter.
                                 --psb, third world lanaguage speaker
              \_ Oh dear! Here goes psb again with his "holier than
                 thou" crap. Partha, don't you have a degree to earn?
              \_ lanaguage eh?
2004/2/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:29781 Activity:insanely high
2/4     Someone needs to tell the Chinese that the phrase
        "Pearl of the Orient" is racist and that they should not use it
        \_ Context?
        \_ who uses that phrase? --Chinese
        \_ In Chinses it's always "Pearl of the East".
           \_ Hong Kong websites.
        \_ In Chinese it's always "Pearl of the East".
           \_ That's certainly racist and Eurocentrist.
              \_ eurocentrist?  nah, it's old world centrist.
                 it ignores the existence of the americas.
                 that westerners call themselves westerners
                 doesn't mean the world is japancentrist for
                 \_ Why Japan? Racist.
                    \_ because I hate fucking japs!  don't tell me jap is
                       racist too.
                       \_ You don't like to have sex with them?
                          \_ No, but I enjoyed having hot sweaty sex with
                             yermom all night long.
                             \_ I love the motd.  This deteriorated so quickly
                                I had to laugh.
        \_ Racism is the denigration and otherwise maltreatment of an
           underclass by an overclass.  Therefore, by definition, the
           Chinese cannot be racist, since the overclass/underclass
           power relationship cannot exist.
2004/2/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12085 Activity:low 50%like:12078
2/2     [ Chinese Chess ]
        \_ thanks for the links.  It's hard to remember all those
           chinese characters (on the Chinese Chess sets)
        \_ forget all these, try http://www.ourgame.com
2004/1/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12033 Activity:nil
1/30    Someone asked about knives a while back. These aren't 5 star knives,
        but a good deal:
        \_ what is a 5 star knife?  Certainly not henckels or wusthof.
           \_ wusthof has a $350 chef's knife. i hate ceramic knives. bite me.
           \_ "5 Star" is one of Henckels' lines.  I think the op was referring
              to knives of high quality, though.
        \_ Those look like crap to me.  They are full-tang riveted, but they
           are stamped, not forged, and made in China, which is not reknowned
           for their good knives.  Henckels and Wusthof make their better lines
           in Germany and the cheaper ones in China and Spain.  Stamped knives
           like these go dull quickly, and have fairly flexible blades, which
           makes them not very safe or easy to use.
           That being said, I have seen reasonably cheap Chinese knives on
           Amazon that were pretty good.  The key diference was that they were
           forged.  The easy way to tell is that the blade gets thicker near the
           top and has a lump of metal where the blade meets the handle.
2003/12/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:11368 Activity:low
12/9    I can understand why china doesn't want taiwan to be independent.
        But what i don't understand is why they're so worked up about
        the proposed reffurendum in taiwan, given that for all practical
        purposes taiwan *is* independent.  is it just a pride thing?
        if taiwan already has an independently elected government, an
        independent armed forces and pays no taxes to the mainland
        what the hell difference does it make to beijing what they
        claim in some vote?
        \_ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&e=3&u=/ap/20031209/ap_on_re_as/us_china
           Bush publicly opposes independence. So much for independence.
           \_ Support for an Independent Taiwan was the only positive thing I
              saw in the Bush Administration.  And now that's gone, too.
              Jayzus H. Keerist, can no one see what a whore this man is?
        \_ one China one Nation.
           \_ I read in "Guns Germs and Steel" that one factor that held up
              China from developing into a world power pre-1492 was that it
              was a single political entity at the whims of the emperor.  i.e.
              They had a world class fleet they could have used to dominate
              with but they just decided to do away with it, as the result
              of a political struggle between factions in the imperial court.
        \_ I'm a little curious too.  I think it's about saving face.  Right
           now they can say "We're China, and there is one rebellious province"
           If there's too much talk of independance, it rubs their nose in the
           fact that the civil war was really fought to an impasse, and the
           communist revolutionaries didn't totally win.
        \_ one word: communism. "Taiwan has all the goodies, and we want
           them too."
        \_ China is all about stability.  They rule by the atmosphere of
           "if you stick out, we'll stomp you".  They'll roll over college
           students with a tank, and have no problem shooting live rounds.
           Do you have a problem?  Then you belong in a Chinese prison for
           20 years as a political prisoner.
           If China lets Taiwan become independent, it fears that its own
           citizens will get ideas.
           \_ what do you think the US will do if our civil war didn't end
              the way it did? Do you think if California decides to become
              independent (I don't see why not since we are not getting any
              fucking shit from the federal government), everything will
              go smoothly? It's not about saving face. It's about national
              unity, a concept you obviously don't understand. They wouldn't
              have cared less if Taiwan is rich or poor.
              \_ China *had* national unity before Mao.
                 \_ read a fucking history book.
                    \_ United Front
              \_ What you're saying falls under what I wrote.
        \_ Who's the douchey douchebag that keeps deleting this thread?
           \_ Heh, I've only deleted it once.  - troll-recognizer whose
                                                 comment got deleted
              \_ it was not intended as a troll, it was intended to generate
                 interesting discussion, which it did(along with the usual
                 flames).  go fuck yourself. -op
                 \_ Whatever.  Delete me, I'll delete you.

        \_ It's easy. There must be one great Communist Nation to combat the
           evil greedy infidels of the Capitalistic BushReich!
2003/11/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29643 Activity:nil
11/19   China to attack Taiwan:
2003/11/5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:29611 Activity:high
11/5    If anybody deserves the death penalty, it's this Green River
        Killer fucker. Why the hell can he just admit and not get the
        death penalty?? So, if someone just go out and start killing
        people, all they have to do is to admit and they won't get the
        death penalty? WTF? Is this the so called best criminal
        justice system in the world? This is so fucked up I think even
        the Chinese government can do better by putting a fucking
        bullet in this guy's head.
        \_ see, the Chinese government wouldn't give a crap about
           finding out what happened to all 48 women.  Justice is
           not just about punishing the guilty; it is also about
           protecting the innocent -- in this case, giving families
           of the deceased women some closure.
           \_ I am not so sure about this. There's far less crime in China,
              a country with hell a lot more people than the US, than here.
              All this because WE care about our people? I think not. the
              criminals are simply not afraid of the law here, period.
              \_ Far less crime in China?  Do you have any idea what you're
                 talking about?
                 \_ do YOU have any idea what you are talking about? ever
                    been to China?
                    \_ Ever been to the US?  Ever spent time here?  Or do you
                       just believe everything you see on television?
                    \_ you need to come beijing so our local boys can beat
                       you up and show you a thing or two about crimes in
                       \_ don't need to go to China for that. There's PLENTY
                          of spots in EVERY FUCKING MAJOR US CITY that you
                          will get the crap beat out of you. You will NOT
                          find a city like east palo alto in China, they may
                          be poor, but poor != crime.
        \_ Because trials cost $.
        \_ No death penalty because all but 2 murders were not in a death
           penalty state.  He might get it for the 2 murders in Oregon, though.
2003/10/24 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10764 Activity:low
10/23   Soong May-Ling (aka Madame Chiang Kai Shek) passed away at age
        106 in Long Island, NY.  A generation has passed into history.
        A short biography:
        \_ Is that a bad thing?
           \_ it's history.
        \_ for those who bitching about women right, one should really
           look at her and how she played the role of the First
           lady.  It's not until the 1970's when the First Lady in the
           Western world slowly caught up with what she is already done
           in the 1930's.
           \_ If you're trying to mention highly-achieved Chinese women in the
              past, how about the King Mother Chi Hsi (sp?) of the Qing
                                              \_ Ci Xi.  learn pinying
                                                 \_ wo hen ta ma de pinying.
                                                    \_ pinyin, no g
                                                       \_ wo hen ta ma de in vs
                                                          ing.  no difference
                                                          to my ear.
                                                 \_ Sorry, I'm not a Mandarin
                                                    speaker.  Just doing my
                        say this 3 times fast:  4 & 10 is 14    _/
                                                4 & 40 is 44
                        \_ Try this: 4 is 4. 10 is 10. 14 is 14. 40 is 40.
                                     44 is 44.
                           \_ How about the one that says "When Xi Xi died, she
                              was 44."  Or a very long one that started with
                              "There's a poet Shih in a rock chamber.  He likes
                              eating lion.  ......"
              Dynasty, and even Empress Wu in the Tang Dynasty a thousand years
           \_ First Ladies should not have *any* power, control, or influence.
              Certainly not in a democracy where we elect our leaders, we don't
              marry them.  And you've got a funny idea of women's rights where
              a woman has to marry the right guy to achieve power or wealth.
              That sounds very 1950's to me.
              \_ First Lady is essentially a cabinet position.  She
                 is appointed by the same person who appoints everyone
                 else in the cabinet.  If anything, the First Lady
                 position is more democracy friendly than the other
                 cabinet positions because you know what you're getting
                 when you vote.  We all knew during the election that
                 if GW won Laura Bush would be First Lady, but I think if
                 people had known ahead of time who would be appointed
                 attrorney general it could have thrown the election
                 the other way.
        \_ Wow, I didn't know Soong Ching-ling became a communists after Dr.
           Sun died.
           \_ You can even argue that Dr. Sun was a half of a communist
              at first place.
              \_ Is that why Deng Xiao-Ping erected a statue of Dr. Sun
                 somewhere in China (I saw a picture of that in some book) even
                 though he's of the Nationalist Party?
                 \_ Sun Yat-Sen was the Father of Modern (Non-Imperial)
                    China.  That he was a borderline socialist before the
                    Nationalist v. Communist fracas broke out is neither
                    here nor there.
                 \_ huh.. huh...  he said statue...
                    \_ statue erected statue erected statue erected.
                       are you horny now?
                       \_ reaching the condoms
        \_ The Soong sisters: One loved power (May-Ling marrying CKS), one
           loved money (Ai-ling marrying industrialist HH Kung), and one
           loved China (Ching-ling marrying Sun Yat-Sen).  It's a cliche
           but there you go.
           \_ Maybe they just loved their husbands.
           \_ What's the full name of HH Kung?  Thanks.
        \_ The West had Queen Elizabeth. How about Cleopatra?
           \_ Yeah the whole snake bite thing at the end went well for her.
2003/10/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10673 Activity:nil
10/16   Now we have confirmation that China is not expansionistic, "partly,
        it's due to anal retentive confucian morality, but moslty
        it's because Chinese prefer to stay at home and enjoy life".  Here
        ya go:
        \_ First, we are talking about gunpower era, not present day.
           Thanks for taking my writing out of context.  Second,
           if manned space flight and dual use satellites are
           considered expansionistic, we would have to conclude that
           the US is the most expansionistic nation on earth, with
           spy satellites all over the sky and spy stations all
           around China (in S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Mongolia,
           central asia, etc.)
        \_ white men are greedy and acquisitive. Look at the way they treated
           black slaves and how Manifest Destiny included plans to kill
           Indians with smallpox. White men like to have sex more often to
           spread their seeds around the world. It's all in the genes.
           \_ Who's yo daddy?!
              \_ George H.W. Bush!
        \_ Firstly, why post the same link twice?  Secondly, both of the
           articles quote the exact same source: a Lt. Stokes, director of
           the Taiwan desk at the Pentagon...  hrmm... must be unbiased.
           \_ simple cut'n'paste error.  why else?  -op
        \_ If you enjoy reading alarmist literature, you should try
           Jack London's "The Unparalled Invasion".  Here is a short
           summary of it:
           "... Jack London's 1910 The Unparalleld Invasion (which calls
           for an aerial bombardment of the Chinese by fragile glass tubes
           that carry every possible biological weapon - and those that
           flee are felled by the powers at their borders, the land is
           disinfected and then whites move into a cleansed China)."
           An excerpt of the aftermath:
           "They found China devastated, a howling wilderness through
           which wandered bands of wild dogs and desperate bandits who
           had survived. All survivors were put to death wherever found.
           And then began the great task, the sanitation of China."
           Here is the full version:
           \_ Is that your idea of foreign policy and containment?
           \_ And I bet you had yellow fever before too
           \_ Is this the Jack London at Jack London Square in Oakland?
              \_ yes. and our alumnus.
2003/10/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10670 Activity:nil
10/16   If the Chinese invented gunpowdah, why the hell didn't they use it
        for guns and other weaponries? Couldn't they have used the
        technology to expand their empire further?
        \_ Why bother with guns if you have flying emperors?
           http://tinyurl.com/rb3h  -John
           \_ yea, we all know you love chinese.
        \_ China wasn't expansionist.
           \_ Wahahahahhahahahahaaa!!!  They tell you that in 5th grade?
              \_ I agree with op.  Relatively speaking, China is less
                 expansionist.  Partly, it's due to anal retentive
                 confucian morality, but moslty it's because Chinese
                 prefer to stay at home and enjoy life.
                        \_ I also prefer to stay at home and enjoy life.
                           Why is America expanding in Iraq?
                           \_ The US is not expanding in Iraq.  Iraq will
                              retain its identity as a separate nation.
                        \_ No, they've already conquered everything around them
                           that was easy to take over.  They hit the ocean and
                           the desert and the mountains and thus were stopped
                           only the the surrounding terrain.  There was no
                           where left to expand.  Go buy a globe.
                           \_ Actually they stopped because the Emperor told
                              them to stop. Felt there was no need to conquer
                              anything else because it was unworthy. Go buy a
                              history book.
                           \_ Nah, when Zheng He and his mightly fleet sailed
                              the seven seas, they could easily have invaded
                              many lands but they didn't.

        \_ There was some PBS show (connections? James Burkley?). He
           mentioned that is was cultural. Using gunpowder for fire crackers
           for ceremonies and stuff like that. It took a western view to see
           gunpowder in a different light, and adapting the "bell" for
           another use (as a cannon, basically).
                \_ so you're implying that white men are evil? racist.
                   \_ well, those are your words, not mine (they are evil
                      buggers, though, aren't they?).
                   \_ no he's implying that chinese lack imagination and that's
                      why they're still a 3rd world power.
                      \_ No, actually they thought they had already done
                         it all and perfected their civilization (or something
                         to that effect).
           \_ Actually, I think a lot of it was because China controlled the
              areas it wanted to rule without huge opposition. Creating and
              mass producing new exotic weapons like guns aren't a priority.
         \_ in addition to all above, in order to have an arms race you need
            two or more powers matched closely enough in order to be racing!
            otherwise the dominant power tends to institutionalize its current
            methods.  fear often overrides concerns of honor, sportsmanship,
            or whatever concept binds one to the old ways.
        \_ Actually, they did, according to this NOVA interview:
2003/10/17 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10667 Activity:nil
10/16   Such reasoning washes away any differentiation between good and
        evil, and turns the United Nations into an asinine debating
        society where the representative of a genocidal dictator gets
        his "turn" to criticize how, say, Iceland doesn't have
        enough homosexual out-reach programs.
        \_ Ya know, freeperguy, I love ya, and the stuff you post is usually
           on target but your points would be better served with links from
           news sites that say the same things, not opinion sites like http://fr.com.
           That being said, it is true that the UN is exactly as described. The
           idea that unelected third world murderers should even be invited to
           join a world body is ridiculous.  Their opinions are meaningless.
           And the extra 'gotcha' is they all hang out in NY, rape American
           women, ignore traffic tickets and then just fly home under the
           protection of diplomatic immunity.  It's a joke.  If the UN disolved
           tomorrow, the world wouldn't change in the least for good or bad.
           \_ Or maybe people could look at the facts instead of rejecting
              everything because of the ideological leaning of the source.  That
              goes for people from the left, right, and center.
           \_ The problem with freeper articles is that they want to throw
              out the baby with the bath water.  The UN is a good idea.
              expelling nations that have no democractically elected leaders
              is not a bad idea.  Universal sanctions on the bastards is an
              even better idea.  Reform the UN, don't just sink it.
        \_ I hear Bernie Goetz is looking for a job.  -John
2003/10/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10646 Activity:low
10/15   What the FUCK is wrong with these people?
        The "Jews control the world" notion is supposed to be limited
        to dumbshits. -nerdy asian
                 \_ you mean shiites?
        \_ It is, what's your point?
        \_ agree, Jews controls US foreign policy, thus, in effect,
           control the world.
           \_ do you also believe there's a conspircy among long dicked black
              men to rape your white wife?  back to the 50's, you neanderthal.
        \_ may be this would make you feel better, Malaysia has been
           racially discrimiting ethnic Chinese for DECADES.  So, Jewish
           boys and girls, you are not alone.
           \_ no, it doesn't.  as a jew I don't think its ok that the malai
              or anyone else are discriminating against more than just my
              people.  i feel as badly for the kurds, for example, as i do for
              my own.  the irish.  the tibetans.  what remains of the american
              indians and those still there in southern mexico.  and anyone
              else you can think of who is abused for nothing more than being
              different from the majority population.  i hope you thought you
              were being funny (you weren't) because the alternative is truly
              \_ It's not that simple. They are not "abused" just for being
                 "different from the majority". The chinese and jews control
                 much of the economic power and make up the business class.
                 There's much more to this than what the Kurds/Irish/Tibetans
                 have going on.
                 \_ Yet another racist canard.  Please post your url that
                    proves the banks, businesses, etc are owned by those evil
                    zoggian jews and their wicked chinese business associates.
                    The very thought itself is standard racist drivel meant to
                    create an "us vs them" dichotomy so it's easier for the
                    weak minded to hate people they've never met.  Again, I
                    would ask you to keep your racist fears of The Other off
                    the motd.  I doubt anyone wants to hear your concerns about
                    black men with large dicks raping your wife, the vietnamese
                    family across the street dognapping your pet for a meal or
                    how you *know* that arab taxi driver went the wrong way
                    intentionally so he could fuck you for an extra buck.
2003/10/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Travel] UID:10634 Activity:nil
10/15   I am planning on visiting Guandong, Shanghai, Beijin, etc. this coming
        year.  Generally speaking, what time of the year would be best to visit
        these places?  If I want to do more than take a kodak in each city, how
        many cities should I visit in about 2 weeks?  And, is it better/safer
        for a single guy to travel alone, with a guy buddy, his gf, or his
        regular female friend travel with him?  Lastly, what are some good
        words to search for besides "china", "guandong", "shanghai", "beijin",
        "travel", "tour", ...  Thanks.
        \_ best time is actually *NOW*, right after their national holiday
           vacation (which span seven days) on October 1st. before
           the weather turned cold.  One problem with
           China is that it has too many people.  I personally find it
           difficult to enjoy scenary, no matter how beatiful it is,
           when there are couple thousands of other guys doing the exact
           same thing at the same time.   China in general are pretty
           safe.  For starter, stick with may be 3 cities.  Beijing,
           Xi'An, and may be Shanghai (especially the nearby city like
           Suzhou).  If you hever been in China before
           3-4 cities is a good start for a 2 week period.
           \_ Safe in general, true, but when it comes to your belongings
              you should be very watchful.  There are known to be some
              pickpockets in the bigger cities.  Oh, and try to take
              a boat ride along the river in Guilin.
              \_ What are you saying?  It's the worker's paradise!  Racist!
        \_ The best travel time is just before the Japanese show up to gang
           bang the entire staff at the local hotels.  You don't want seconds.
           \_ Those women weren't hotel staff.  They were brought in.
        \_ Can I still visit if I don't know how to speak Chinese?
           \_ Don't worry, they'll assign a minder to you.  They'll always be
              one block behind.
              \_ Not in Shanghai.  The authorities will simply assume that
                 every pimp and nightclub owner will report on you anyway.
2003/10/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10632 Activity:high
10/14   China launches manned flight!
        \_ don't be so proud.  Key components are foreign nature, that
           include the capsule (based upon Russian's Soyou(sp?), and the
           navigation system is made by Hughs Electronics.
           \_ Soyuz (Union).
           \_ There are rumors that not all scientists working on the Apollo
              missions were born in the USA.
              \_ ...so? certainly not all scientists working on the manhattan
                 project were born in the US.
                 \_ That was sarcasm.  I don't think the fact the China
                 mission uses foreign components detracts from the achievement
                 anymore than the US using foreign-born scientists/engineers/
                 whatever in the Apollo program.
              \_ It's not rumors. The US got top V2 rocket engineers from
                 Germany after WWII. They felt German pride with all their
                 accomplishments with rockets for the US including the lunar
                 landing. There was a PBS program about this. That being said,
                 I think the Chinese were the ones that invented rockets, so it
                 has come full circle somewhat.
                 \_ The German's V2 was stolen from Goddard.
                \_ "German Pride" caused WWI and WWII.  We can do without it.
             \_ There's a difference between having foreign-born Americans
                work on something, and getting help from foreign governments.
                 landing. There was a PBS program about this.
           \_ BFD.  so, the Chinese engineering/integration had nothing
              to do with it?  It's all in the parts?  --Jon
              \_ I agree.  The Chinese deserve credit.
        \_ "It's been done."  Seriously what's the big deal?
           \_ We need another space race to advance technology and create
              jobs. A little rivalry is not a bad thing. Bring on Mars!!!
                \_ No wonder it's so short.
              \_ Hey, baby, that's not a rocket in my pocket -bclinton
        \_ Correction: China _says_ they have manned spaceflight.  They
           cancelled the live broadcast.  We'll find out later if the guy
           went up in flames on the way up or during reentry.
           \_ Learn Engrish first lah.  All op said was "launches".
              \_ We don't know it was manned.  We only know what the Chinese
                 government says, lah!  I'll grant that they probably did
                 launch a rocket because we can satellite track it.  But was
                 a real live human being inside?  Shrug.
                 \_ There comes a point in any conspiracy theory where you
                    have to ask yourself: is it more work to maintain the
                    conspiracy or to actually do what they say they've done?
                    \_ True.  Consider how trivially easy it is to hide the
                       fact that no human's in a rocket.  Without a live
                       \_ Actually, they sent up OJ Simpson.  Really. I saw
                \_ All we need is a TV clip showing that Chinese pilot talking
                   in a weightless environment.  Then either there was a
                   manned flight in orbit, or the Chinese has advanced its
                   special effect technology to create a fake weightlessness
                   footage which is still a huge achievement.
                   \_ i dont think the Chinese are faking it.  However,
                      if you want to take footage in zero g without going to
                      space it's pretty easy to do in a plane.
                      \_ Yeah, but in a Chinese plane?
              to do with it?  It's all in the parts?  --Jon
                          the movie.
2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10620 Activity:nil
10/13   Cool.  Here's Europe forgetting lessons of the very recent past:
        The best parts are near the end when they talk about arms transfers.
        \_ Which lessons are those? That China is a good trading partner?
           Amazing how antagonizing your allies makes them look for other
           partners, isn't it? The damage Bush has done to American diplomacy
           will take decades to undo.
           \_ The ones about peace with honor.  Or in this case, cash without
              honor.  But you knew that.  China is a great trading partner if
              you've got high tech weaponry to sell.  You seem angry.
              \_ Honor?
              \_ What are you trying to say? That it is dishonorable to
                 trade with the Chinese? That China is a threat to Europe's
                 security? What???
                 \_ It's there.  No.  Yes.  Just that.
2003/10/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10544 Activity:nil
10/8    what's the best source for China-related news(in English or Chinese)?
        \_ Asia Times is a good, indy HK rag, but they cover everything.
           You could also try the South China Morning Post, but that requires
           a paid subscription.
2003/10/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10531 Activity:nil
10/8    China's first manned space flight might be next week:
        \_ boring
           \_ yeah, we should just change the name of the file to
           \_ it's never boring to see real live human beings turn to ash in
              mid-air.  that's what made the shuttle blowing up twice so cool.
2003/10/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10465 Activity:low
10/3    bios-ain't-done-till-linux-won't-run
        \_ Time to adopt OpenBIOS
        \_ time for osX
        \_ what was the line from starwars:  "The tighter they grasp,
           the more of them will slip through their fingers.." ?
           \_ Welcome to reality.  That was a movie, this is life.
                \_ Get over it.  Compaq SmartStart bios for Proliant servers
                   has been WinNT-based forever now.  If that's not enough,
                   for once I'd suggest a big 'hooray' for the ChiCom
                   electronics industry as a balancing factor.  Combine
                   (http://tinyurl.com/ppo7 - propaganda) with Red Flag Linux
                   and you may realize that 1 billion screaming Chinese aren't
                   going to be voluntarily shoehorned into having their pirate
                   DVD PC game stations running Windows 2010.  -John
                   [formatd was here even though John should be able to self-f]
                        \_ John apologizes, John was on way-too-wide xterm.
                           John promises introspection and betterment in
                           future.  Please forgive John.  And apparently URL
                           is dead too--was meant to refer to Dragon CPU.
                           future.  Please forgive John.
                   \_ fuck you, John. Number of Communist Party member in
                      China is roughly around 100k.  Consider we got
                      1.3+ billion people, it is so fucking unfair to label
                      us that way.  Years of Berkeley, you haven't learn
                      how to seperate regime and the nation and its people.
                      you white imperalist.  Yes, you are.  Based upon
                      your logic, you are responsible for Iraq and Afghan,
                      especially consider the regime is elected by people
                        \_ Pardon me, but what the fuck are you talking about?
                           Dragon CPU development is Chinese government
                           sponsored, and the domestic electronics industry
                           there is "strongly motivated" by various govt. trade
                           bodies to compete with US commercial entities.  Red
                           Flag Linux is openly sponsored by the Chinese
                           post office and other (government) organizations.
                           Chinese government is, well, communist, or at least
                           they say so.  But if that pisses you off, I strongly
                           apologize and take back my assertion that the
                           Chinese (1 billion of them, and please _do_ point out
                           where I said they're all commies) are smart enough
                           to use technical alternatives to what M$ wants them
                           to buy.  And I should add that after years of
                           Berkeley, I have a very solid understanding of
                           politics, sociology and economics, and in contrast
                           to you, a GRASP OF HOW TO WRITE A PROPER ENGLISH
                           SENTENCE, YOU BLITHERING FUCKWIT.  Eat a turd and
                           wither, ChiCom troll.  -John
                           \_ um, I think you've been trolled, John.
                              No one on the motd really writes English as
                              badly as the above poster claims to.
                                \_ law of averages.  Idiots do exist.
                      like you
                      \_ yeah and uhm yeah so take that and that and that and
                         you're a big bad white cracker racist and china isnt
                         communist and john is evil whitey imperialist racist
                         and cant format and has big bad whitey xterm format
                         problem in afghan and iraq and Hey, did anyone see
                           future.  Please forgive John.
                         my bag?  I think I left it on the boat!
2003/9/28-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10353 Activity:nil 50%like:10335
9/28    Hey ChiCom troll, another one for you:
        http://www.chinaembassy.org.pl/pol/44281.html (Poland?)  -John
        \_ Falun Gong is evil.
        \_ As you probably know, the western media will support any group
           that has anything remotely bad to say about China. This has been
           the case, and will probably always be the case for a while.
           \_ With good reason.  There's little good to be said about the
              current Chinese government.
              \_ I don't know what is your reference.  Compare with US
                 government, then, perhaps.  But the current Chinese
                 government ever since the economic reform deserve
                 some credit.  Take aside all the fancy stuff such as
                 democracy, etc, life for average Chinese citizen has
                 gone better for the past 15 years.
                 \_ As opposed to the time before the past 15 years, where
                    the communists were also in charge?  Dumbass.
                    \_ Before it was communism, now it is capitalism.
                       Capitalism is good.  I love it.
                 \_ It's all that "fancy stuff" that you dismiss so readily
                    that makes the difference between good and evil.  Mussolini
                    made the trains run on time and Hitler turned the German
                    economy around.  Are those your role models for China?
                    \_ you invoked Hitler .. you lost.
                       \_ For more info on the mechanics of Godwin's Law,
                          we bring you the Godwin's Law FAQ:
                          \_ jesus.  what a fucking waste of time.  apparently
                             i haven't been missing anything since i stopped
                             reading usenet eight years ago.
                             \_ Ah, I see -- since you've been caught
                                misusing Godwin's law and pointed to a site
                                actually clarifying it for you...it's therefore
                                not worth reading?  That's really dumb.
                             \_ And you're posting on the motd? *ring* Kettle,
                                this is the pot calling.  You're black.
                                \_ ok, ok, but i know i have a problem,
                                   and i'm trying to quit.
                    \_ China's role model has always been Taiwan, S. Korea,
                       Singapore.  Hitler believed in white supremacy, living
                       space and conquest.  China is more interested in making
                       money.  China's boom is driven by economic liberalization,
                       trade, entrepreneurship, foreign investments.  None of
                       these can be said of Nazi Germany.
                       \_ by "always" you mean since Deng took over, right?
                 \_ so you'd prefer a country that would invade another for
                    no good reason other than they have oil?
                    \_ Good countertroll.  *polite clapping*.
                    \_ Hey, some jealous fiend deleted *my* congrads on a
                       good countertroll!  I insist I get my counter troll
                       points!  It's in the archives!  -fellow troll
2003/9/26-27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10335 Activity:high 50%like:10353
9/26    Hey ChiCom troll, I found you something you can have fun with.
        http://www.centurychina.com/history/krwarfaq.html  -John
        \_ Thanks john.  Most US think Korean war was an idealogical
           war between the Communists and the West.  While there is a
           war between the Communist and the West.  While there is a
           little element of that, the motive behind China's involvement
           was self-defense.  Mind you, at the time, USA did not recognize
           the establishment in Beijing as China's legitimate government.
           Under these circumstances, the newly established PRC was nervous
           about having US Army, who aided the Nationalist throughout the
           civil war, pressing to their border.
                                \_ Communists -!aaron
           little element of that, the motive behind China's involvement
           was self-defense.  Mind you, at the time, USA does not recognize
                                                          \_ did -!aaron
                 \_ I am sure a Nazi would be offended by that remark
                \_ are we not at a University, where one would expect proper
                   usage of English?
                   \_ Are we not in the CSUA, where one would expect sloppy
                      usage of English?
           the establishment in Beijing as China's legitment government.
                                                     \_ legitimate -!aaron
           Under these circumstances, the newly established PRC was nerverous
                                                                nervous _/
           about having US Army, who aids the Nationalist throughout the
                       \_ the -!aaron   \_ aided -!aaron
           civil war, is pressing to their border.
                       \_ delete "is" -!aaron
           \_ bug fixes integrated.  - !op
           \_ Learn to write proper English, chinaboy.  -!aaron
                \_ This was written by some other idiot than the person
                   who put in suggested corrections.
                    \_ I bet GWB would find WMD's in China if he looked.
                       \_ China already advertises it has nukes.  No need to
                          prove it by looking.
              \_ Chill out, Grammar Nazi. -dgies
                 \_ I am sure a Nazi would be offended by that remark
                \_ are we not at a University, where one would expect proper
                   usage of English?
                   \_ Are we not in the CSUA, where one would expect sloppy
                      usage of English?
           \_ So the ChiComs sent a million men over someone else's border
              in self defense?  Against a few American divisions?  Silly.
              If all those GIs walked straight into China itself, they couldn't
              do more than steal some rice and leave a few AmerAsian kids
              behind in a few border villages.
              \_ Not to justify their paranoia, but after the Opium Wars
                 and the Japanese invasion and occupation of much of the
                 country for 12 years, the Chinese had reasons to fear
                 foreign domination. -ausman
                 \_ this paranoia still exists until this day.  I hope
                    Americans understand that.  If every american has
                    your level of understanding, the sino-US relationship
                    will be much better.
                    \_ I bet GWB would find WMD's in China if he looked.
                       \_ China already advertises it has nukes.  No need to
                          prove it by looking.
              \_ Nah, MacArthur wanted to get CKS involved too, and CKS is
                 all too ready to help reclaim the mainland.  PRC repeatedly
                 tried to start a dialogue with the US to get assurances
                 about US intentions, but US did not respond, and just
                 continued marching north up the Korean peninsula.  Also, US
                 can always send in more divisions.
                 \_ MacArthur didn't set US foreign policy.  It doesn't matter
                    what he wanted.
                    \_ That's not apparent at that time.  Truman could've
                       been pushed around by MacArthur.  PRC did not know
                       what US "foreign policy" was.
                       \_ MacArthur was a loose cannon that eventualy had to
                          be reigned in.
                          \_ MacArthur was a great man. It's civilian rule -
                             that's the damn problem
                             \_ if it's up to him, Beijing and other major
                                Chinese city would be nuked then.  Ohh
                                wait... using weapon of mass destruction
                                on civilians is completely justified except
                                when you are a Muslim.
                             \_ MacArthur was a fool and an idiot who got by
                                on charisma and media love.
                                \_ graduating first in west point, and
                                   having a famous father helped too
        \_ Mao paid personal price for the involvement.  His only son
           was killed during the campaign.
           \_ Doesn't Mao have many other illegitimate sons and daughters?
              \_ The Great Leader can do no wrong and thus all of Greater
                 China are His children basking in the Ever Lasting Glow of
                 His Greatness and shall live Great and Gloriously under His
                 Rule, one Five Year Plan at a time!
                 \_ I am more interested in the sordid tales about Mao
                    and his affairs and illegitimate children.
                 \_ Hey Mao is only considered "70% correct, 30 % wrong"
                        in CCP pantheon now.
                    \_ Yes, that is what CCP said.  no one in China really
                       pay attention to them.  I mean, if you walk around
                       in the chinese city and ask their opinion about Mao,
                       the general consenses is actually quite negative
                       for the 10 years of culture revolution he started.
        \_ Answer this, what do you think the US will do if the Soviet
           invaded Mexico or one of our neighboring countries? You think
           we will sit and do nothing? give me a fucking break. The message
           to for the US in the Korean war is, don't mess with our neighbors,
           and I think the message has been delivered. If China did nothing,
           then MacArthur would've went over the border to look for the
           NK leaders, that part was for sure. The US did not recognize China
           as a legitimate country at the time and has, and will, do anything
           to break it apart. Tibet was another example.
           \_ Right, but US is a plutocracy, China is a dictatorship.  The
              current Chinese government does not have the same legitimacy
              as the US government.
              \_ Fifty steps laughing at ten steps.
              \_ China is an oligarchy.
                 \_ Saying a government is an oligarchy is not saying anything.
                    Any government of anything more than a remote village
                    is an oligarchy almost by definition.  The Chinese
                    government is neither democratic nor representative.
                                \_ No, I'm saying you know the meaning of
                                   the word, but seem to be largely ignorant
                                   of real world civics and how the word
                                   actually translates into reality.  As for
                                   you being a simpleton...well...your
                                   previous comment seems to lend more than
                                   enough credence.  Good luck with that
                                   dictionary, kid.
                    It is brutal and self-perpetuating, and does not represent
                    the will or the best interests of the average chinese
                    person.  Chinese nationalism is admirable, Chinese culture
                    has a lot to be proud of.  However, the current government
                    is not one of those things.  Making them benefit from your
                    positive feelings for your country of birth is a mistake.
                    \_ You're reading your definition wrong.  Would you call
                       the US an oligarchy?
                       \_ Of course.  An oligarchy is rule by the few.  An
                          effective government consists of the few (relatively
                          speaking).  Almost any country today is an oligarchy.
                          It is neither a positive nor a negative, it is simply
                          a feature of government.
                          \_ Perhaps you should use your dictionary to look
                             up 'Republic' and 'Democracy' as well as
                             Oligarchy.  You may have the technical definition
                       pay attention to them.  I mean, if you walk around
                       in the chinese city and ask their opinion about Mao,
                       the general consenses is actually quite negative
                       for the 10 years of culture revolution he started.
        \_ Answer this, what do you think the US will do if the Soviet
           invaded Mexico or one of our neighboring countries? You think
           we will sit and do nothing? give me a fucking break. The message
           to for the US in the Korean war is, don't mess with our neighbors,
           and I think the message has been delivered. If China did nothing,
           then MacArthur would've went over the border to look for the
           to for the US in the Korean war is, don't mess with our neighbors,
           and I think the message has been delivered. If China did nothing,
           then MacArthur would've went over the border to look for the
           NK leaders, that part was for sure. The US did not recognize China
           as a legitimate country at the time and has, and will, do anything
           to break it apart. Tibet was another example.
           NK leaders, that part was for sure. The US did not recognize China
           as a legitimate country at the time and has, and will, do anything
           to break it apart. Tibet was another example.
           \_ Right, but US is a plutocracy, China is a dictatorship.  The
              current Chinese government does not have the same legitimacy
              as the US government.
              \_ Fifty steps laughing at ten steps.
              \_ China is an oligarchy.
                 \_ Saying a government is an oligarchy is not saying anything.
                    Any government of anything more than a remote village
                    is an oligarchy almost by definition.  The Chinese
                    government is neither democratic nor representative.
                    It is brutal and self-perpetuating, and does not represent
                    the will or the best interests of the average chinese
                    positive feelings for your country is a mistake.
                    person.  Chinese nationalism is admirable, Chinese culture
                    has a lot to be proud of.  However, the current government
                    is not one of those things.  Making them benefit from your
                    positive feelings for your country of birth is a mistake.
                    \_ You're reading your definition wrong.  Would you call
                       the US an oligarchy?
                             of Oligarchy correct, but your understanding of
                             civics seems a little simplistic.
                             \_ So what you are saying is... I am not wrong,
                                but I am a simpleton anyways, (always good
                                to just start throwing something disparaging
                                after running out of actual stuff to say).
                                \_ No, I'm saying you know the meaning of
                                   the word, but seem to be largely ignorant
                                   of real world civics and how the word
                                   actually translates into reality.  As for
                                   you being a simpleton...well...your
                                   previous comment seems to lend more than
                                   enough credence.  Good luck with that
                                   dictionary, kid.
                          \_ You miss the point of "supreme power".  Supreme
                             power in the hands of the few with no recourse.
                             As much as some are trying to turn this country
                             into an oligarchy, the foundation of this country
                             is not.  Oligarchy implies tyranny.
                             \_ No it doesn't.  It implies only what it means,
                                which is rule by the few.  You assume too much.
                 \_ Why is China an oligarchy? Wasn't Iraq also an oligarchy?
                    In both countries there was a premier guy, but also a bunch
                    of other guys helping. I.e. if Iraq was a dictatorship then
                    so is China.
                    \_ Nah, in Iraq, Saddam orders, and others listens.  In PRC
                       Hu couldn't do very much without a reasonable concensus
                       among the top leadership.
                       \_ Maybe Hu is just a weakling then. I think Mao pretty
                          much had the same power as other dictators.
2003/9/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10332 Activity:high
9/25    Ted Rall sums it up quite nicely:
        \_ Yeah, I feel safer now already. The truth will never be found.
           But least one dictator is gone. Now for Syria, Iran, N.Korea,
           and Cuba.
           \_ Why not Liberia and the Congo?
              \_ Why not China and Kazakhstan?
                 \_ What the hell is in Liberia, Congo, and Kazakhstan?
                    Last time the U.S. fought China it was a bloody draw.
                    \_ Actually, mind your history.  Last time the US fought
                       China, they'd driven them back halfway before the
                       PRC agreed to talk.  And that's without nuking the
                       crap out of their supply linse, which would have been
                       the logical thing to do.  Certainly would have
                       forestalled idiot motd PRC troll and his ignorant Tibet
                       drivel.  And that, kids, is what it's all about!  -John
                           \_ Not quite right.  The Chinese had 700,000 to
                              1 million + soldiers, the U.S. a few divisions.
                              Truman and McCarthur assumed the Chinese
                              were bluffing in their assertions they would
                              come into war.
                       \_ Hey John, to paraphse seano - lick my micturating
                          \_ Hey anonymous, to quote seano quoting me,
                             roses are red, violets are blue, tongue-fuck
                             my shithole, bitch.  -John
                          \_ how do you micturate out of your rectum?
                             and isn't driving someone back halfway pretty
                             much a draw, assuming you don't want to take
                             the step of using nukes, which the u.s.
                             apparently wasn't ready to do?
                             \_ Hey, if you have to ask...
                       \_ John, we have never officially fought the PRC
                          before.  Now, if you're talking about PRC units
                          in Korea, that's a different game.
                          \_ Duh.  It was "PRC units in Korea" vs "US units in
                             Korea".  WTF are you trying to say?
                       \_ Your history is whack here. After McCarther crossed
                          the Yalu, the PRC drove us all the way back to the
                          38th parallel. The war stalled there because open
                          the open terrain there was more advantagous to the
                          American style of combat, which was more dependent
                          on tanks and arty. As for nukes, it was the cold war:
                          Russia already told us that if we used them, they
                          would respond in kind. -ausman
                            \_ Not quite right.  The Chinese had 700,000 to
                               1 million + soldiers, the U.S. a few divisions.
                               Truman and McCarthur assumed the Chinese
                               were bluffing in their assertions they would
                               come into war.
        \_ [here I am]
           \_ Thanks for the laugh! I enjoyed it.
           \_ you are a pathetic little shit.
              \_ Tee hee. This makes it even more precious.
                 \_ ass shit fucks damn hell cunts
           \_ Cool, now I need to write a random cunt-word generating program
              so I can keep you busy... forever.  --ariana's cunt
2003/9/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10311 Activity:kinda low
9/24    China+Tibet != Invasion. It is merely crushing a rebellion, like
        any country will do.
        US+Iraq = Invasion, any way you slice it. End of story.
        \_ compare and contrast to us/mexico/texas
        \_ I'd rather be invaded by the US than be anywhere in China where
           they're crushing a rebellion.
        \_ The US invaded Grenada too.  I was there after the invasion (1994)
           and people there were pretty happy about the US.
           \_ so invasion is OK as long as the people are happy about it.
              got it.
           \_ for everyone that is happy, there will be someone else who
              is unhappy. it's pointless to argue this way. an invasion
              is an invasion. If Hitler won WWII, then by now, the "people"
              will be happy about it too, you can count on it.
           \_ really? do you really want to be invaded? I suppose you will be
              the first one to welcomes the alien invasion force with open
              arms because they can promise you end of corruption and a better
              life style. maybe you should go to Iraq and pretend to be the
              locals, let's see how life treats you there. Anyone who believes
              it's ok to be invaded because the invader is 'better' has serious
        \_ Rebellion? Tibet was an isolated, autonomous nation. China commie
           army decided to "free" it (and move in the Han population).
           \_ Nope, sorry, you're wrong. Thank you for playing. Read up on
              some history before believing all the propoganda hype
              generated by the Dalai Lama and the former Tibetian
              aristocracy. Tibet has always been closely tied to China,
              both politically and economically. Throughout history,
              Chinese rulers have installed rulers into Tibet, so
              Tibet has always been subject to Chinese rule.
                \_ At the time of invasion, Tibet had a separate
                   gov., prime minister of sorts and an army. This
                   gov. was recognized by other nations such as
                   the US, India, Britian etc. Maybe you should
                   read up on history.
                   \_ Maybe you should learn to understand a point. The point
                   you made was that Tibet was an isolated, seperate country.
                   This has never been true. Tibet has had a long history of
                   having had a strong relationship (whether good or bad) with
                   China. In addition, it has been the gateway from India to
                   China for centuries. This is hardly the description of
                   an "isolated" country, and Tibet's autonomy has always
                   been subject to its larger neighbors. Whether you believe
                   Tibet should be autonomous is not the issue. The point
                   is that Tibet has always been a region of political
                   intrigue because of its central locality and its
                   geographical position in relation to China. Calling
                   it an isolated state without regard to its historical
                   underpinnings merely promulgates the simplistic views
                   of westerners towards Sinoistic relationships in general.
                   I'm sure that you would have similar objects if I were to
                   say "Give North Ireland back to the Irish!" The issue
                   has never been, and will never be as simple as black and
                   \_ yeah, if any of part of China would declare independence
                      today, then I am sure the US, Britian, would instantly
                      recognize it as well.
           \_ Wasn't it the Manchus who first did that a few hundred years ago?
        \_ This is awesome.  One little post that just pointed out a
           fairly balanced article that showed that the "Tibetan utopia"
           promoted by the Dalai Lama might not be the reality, and
           suddenly we've got TWO full on flamefests in less than 24 hours.
           Well done, jerking knees!  I love how there's no such thing as
           a nuanced opinion, a grey area, or a complicated problem in
           MotdLand.  And here, I'll call myself a COMMIE PINKO FAGGOT
           CHINA-LOVER so you don't have to:
           \_ You seem to be using 'balanced' as a keyword for moral
              relativism.  That Tibet was a medieval theocratic hellhole
              is most likely true, but how does that justify China's invasion
              and institution of their own brand of genocidal modern communist
              hellhole (which is likely worse)?  That China had influence over
              Tibet for a brief period in the 20th century does not give them
              any justification for this.  The Mongols had influence over China
              for hundreds of years, does that mean Mongolia should invade?
              \_ Mongol dynasty in China lasted slightly more than 100 years,
                 not hundreds of years.
              There.  Less work for you.
           and people there were pretty happy about that.
2003/9/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10309 Activity:low
9/23    Cool!  China, the motd, and Hillary all have something directly in
        common now!  (that was a light joke, for the humorless who can't tell)
        \_ I only censoring 1% of you posting.
           \_ I restoring 100% of me posting.
                \_ No, you sue me, you racist imperialist Chinese hater, for
                   no reason.  Stupid American, always mean on every China.
                   Not censoring, edit.
2003/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10295 Activity:moderate
9/23    Myth of pre-Chinese Tibetan "utopia"
        \_ yeah, its much better now. The Chinses are killing monks,
           burning monastaries, destroying religious texts, forcably
           sterilizing Tibetan women, taking children as political
           prisoners, and relocating Han Chinese to populate the regon.
           \_ Likely you didn't even follow the link.  I'm in agreement
              with you mostly - Chinese rule is no picnic.  However, Westerners
              love to romanticize pre-China tibet and in particular the
              Dalai Lama, when the reality is much more complicated.
                 \_ It is hard to be worse than what it was like under the rule
                    of the Lama.  As for destroying monasteries, see below.
                    \_ Wow, really?  The lamas were genociding their own
                       people?  Have you published this shocking new historical
                       discovery?  This is PhD quality history research!  Whoa!
                       The lamas were butchers... who ever woulda thunk it?
              \_ Just because it sucked before doesn't mean it's ok for the
                 communists to move in and turn it into a communist anti-
                 utopia.  It's both worse now and oppressive.  BTW, they
                 stopped destroying monasteries decades ago after destroying
                 the first 5,000 of them.  With only a few dozen left, it
                 doesn't matter anymore.
              \_ Likeley you have NO idea I followed the link, bozo.
                 Yes, Old tibet is not utopia, but current tibet is
                 a total tradegy. have some compassion.
                 \_ Modern tibet is probably much like previous
                   incarnations of Tibet. The Tibetian problem has
                   \_ Are you HIGH?
                   always been Sinoistic in nature. Tibet and China
                   share a common history, and relations have always
                   entangled. Westerners should be wise to learn the
                   true nature of the issues before proclaiming their
                   one-sided views on subjects they have no true idea
                   about. Tibet, like Iraq, like Palestine, has no
                   easy questions to profer, and no easy answers.
                   \_ I love it when someone refers to systematic genocide
                      as "The <insert victim race here> Problem".  The Tibetan
                      Problem.  The Jewish Problem.  The Kurdish Problem.  The
                      Native Problem.  It goes on.  Add your favorites.
                   \_ systematic eradication of a culture is indefensible.
                      The Chinese burned all the Tibetan artifacts they
                      could find.  They slaughtered all the monks in Tibet.
                      They forcibly moved in a Chinese population in order
                      to breed out the Tibetan culture.  How do you explain
                      that in the context of history?
                      \_ The central governement was singularly lenient when
                         it comes to Tibetan insurgency.  The current Dalai
                         Lama and his huge entourage was essentially allowed
                         to go when they were totally surrounded.  Despite
                         repeated uprising by armed monks (a buddhist
                         oxymoron), they were not systematically executed,
                         although I would not envy their position.  The ethnic
                         tibetan red guards did most of the desrution of
                         cultural treasures, thinking rightly that their
                         once rich culrture has so far fallen behind the
                         outside world (more so than say Afghanistan) but
                         wrongly that they could leap forward by destroying
                         what they already had.  In fact the Chinese army
                         were the one who prevented the destruction of the
                         major sites during the cultural revolution.
                         \_ That's actually pretty interesting.  Do you have
                            any URL's/references that I can follow up on during
                            my free time?  TIA.            -mice
                            \_ He can't provide any sources not from the
                               communists.  It's complete bullshit.
                            \_ There is a book in Chinese called "Sky Burial
                               - xxxxx" where xxxxx I have forgotten. Prob.
                               no English translation exists, since a book
                               that does not whooly condemens the Chinese
                               has a hard time getting published in the west.
                               To the "China Bad" people, a book being written
                               by a Han Chinese is automatically discredited
                               unless the author is a card carrying dissident,
                               which in this case is kind of true. He has been
                               arrested before.  I do not really like his
                               analysis or prose but at least he
                               tries to do a research of the facts and ends up
                               offending everyone.  Actually if one is willing
                               to be rational for a second, it is obvious what
                               kind of a place where people send their children
                               to become monks must be the exact opposite of
                               a paradise.  The propanganda of the Chinese
                               government regarding the extreme sad state of
                               Tibet before Dalai ran away is basically true,
                               but of course they like to neglect the many
                               blunders they committed in Tibet and elsewhere
                               that costed many many lives.  Though it is
                               nothing the government'd be proud to advertise,
                               Tibet is one of the places where situation did
                               not become worse than before even during the
                               worst years of Mao's rule.  Anyway, both the
                               truth and the half truth are less appealing
                               than the fairy/horror tale + hollywood preaching
                               of the Lama.  BTW, I visited Tibet twice.
                               There is tension there but nothing too serious.
                               In terms of ethnicity, it's going the way of
                               the US sans genocide (of Indians).  That
                               is the worst possibility except for all the
                               others, human being human.
                               \_ Goes to show ya, history is written by the
                               \_ Ok, that's all nice but you still haven't
                                  provided the tiniest shred of proof.  This is
                                  communist propaganda and nothing more.  To
                                  say that it's hard to get anything published
                                  in the West is so laughable as to be beyond
                                  absurd.  Hello?  Duh?  We don't have the
                                  censorship here that your beloved communists
                                  inflict on their people on a daily basis.
                                  I'll only respond to one other point, the
                                  idea that there's little tension in Tibet:
                                  of course by this point that could be true.
                                  The communists murdered, imprisoned, or
                                  exiled 99% of the resistence.  One of my
                                  professors visited 10 years ago and reported
                   share a common history, and relations have always
                   entangled. Westerners should be wise to learn the
                                  that by that time the communists had shipped
                                  in so many non-Tibetans that there really
                                  was no serious hope of ever restoring what
                                  little is left of Tibetan culture.  So I say
                                  to you, congratulations on your communist
                                  hero's successful genocide of another people.
                   \_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
                      China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
                      \_ You could go on to say there was alway US., there was
                         always Tibet.  But if you really want to use your head
                         and learn something real, you should know that
                         Tibetan was an  automonous region within Chinese
                         dynasties, which is sort of like a federated system.
                         Then they wanted to break away when the central
                         government was under siege from all sides.  The rest
                         is history.  Yes, the military operation and followup
                         restoration was harsh, but it is brutal in the sense
                         that the US civil war and the consequent years of
                         restoration was harsh, and probably more so in
                         relative scale.  Anyway, Dalai Lama's bid for
                         independence had all to do with personal ambition of
                         a sector of a tiny but rutheless ruling elite, taken
                         advantage of by foreign powers (Britan, Russian, then
                         India and US), than the welfare of the people or their
                         religious faith.  Alas it was a failed gamble and has
                         terrible consequency for all people of China, Tibetans
                         or otherwise, except those "refugees" who live a
                         pampered life on the Swiss alps and his holiness
                         who has become an icon and idol like a rock star.
                         \_ You confuse central control of government with
                            cultural genocide.  The average peasant doesn't
                            care, nor need to care, who they pay their taxes
                            to.  They do and should care when someone is
                            killing them en masse, destroyed 5000+ of their
                   true nature of the issues before proclaiming their
                   one-sided views on subjects they have no true idea
                   about. Tibet, like Iraq, like Palestine, has no
                   easy questions to profer, and no easy answers.
                   \_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
                      China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
                            ~5050 temples, imprisoned, killed, or exiled all
                            of their leaders who wouldn't submit and has
                            imported (like cattle) more foreigners than your
                            own native headcount all in an outrageous and
                            blatant effort to obliterate your people from the
                            face of the earth.  Taxes is politics.  What the
                            communists have done and have almost completed is
                            pure genocide.
                   \_ Ahem, there's no such thing as "Palestine".  Talk about
                      learning your history, you'd be wise to do the same.
                   \_ Have you been to Tibet?  You might want to learn:
                         point, try:
                      \_ A very one-sided view.  For a more balanced view-
                         point, try:
                   \_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
                         The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the
                         Dalai Lama by Melvyn C. Goldstein.
                      China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
                   \_ Ahem, there's no such thing as "Palestine".  Talk about
                      \_ This site uses the fact that China does not have
                         effective control of Tibet from 1911 to 1951 as
                         evidence for Tibetan independence then, and argument for
                      learning your history, you'd be wise to do the same.
                   \_ Have you been to Tibet?  You might want to learn:
                         The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the
                         Dalai Lama by Melvyn C. Goldstein.
                      \_ This site uses the fact that China does not have
                         effective control of Tibet from 1911 to 1951 as
                         evidence for Tibetan independence, conveniently
                         ignoring the fact that China was fragmented from 1911,
                         with warlords, KMT, CCP, Imperial Japan, Russians,
                         Western colonialists all vying for a share of the pie,
                         with no single government controlling the country,
                         that is until the commies reunited the nation.
           \_ Do we have a single ChiCom troll, or multiple ones?  -John
        \_ Bringing Chinese-rule to Tibet!
        \_ Bring Tibetan rule to China!
                         Tibetan independence now, conveniently ignoring the
                         fact that China was fragmented from 1911 until the
                         middle of the twentieth century, with warlords, KMT,
                         CCP, Imperial Japan, Russians, Western colonialists
                         all vying for a share of the pie, and with no single
                         governing entity controlling the country,
                         that is, until the commies reunited the nation.
                         \_ I've already addressed enough of your communist
                            propaganda.  See my above about taxes vs genocide.
           \_ Do we have a single ChiCom troll, or multiple ones?  -John
                \_ Kill the Communist Bandits!
                \_ There's at least two unless there is one who has greatly
                   improved his English skills in the last 6 weeks.
        \_ Bringing Chinese-rule to Tibet!
        \_ Bring Tibetan rule to China!
        \_ US out of North America!
        \_ Tibet illustrates the failure of pacifist ideology:
           Pacifist cultures get smushed by non-pacifist ones.
2003/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Finance/Investment] UID:10252 Activity:nil
9/18    http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2050678
        The world economy is screwed.  Frightening.
        Perhaps it's time for the Greater China (PRC, ROC, HK, SG)
        region to allow its currency to appreciate slightly, and to
        spend its trade surplus on developing its own countries and
        people, but the region is not big or powerful enough to solve
        the world's problem by itself.  Also, US probably
        shouldn't have gone to Iraq, but saved the money, which
        would've helped a little too.  And Japan and Germany need
        to get their act together.  Otherwise it's Great Depression 2.
        \_ Its all the white imperialist protorapist fault!!!
           \_ Huh?  I am suggesting ways that would help lessen the
              burden on the US.  Blame goes all around.  Did you
              bother to read the article?
        \_ Err... read the article please.  The Economist consistantly
           point out that China's economy, despite media hype, is not
           that big of an economy (in the article about 1 month back,
           it said that China's economy is about the size of Italy,
           or 3% of Global GDP).  Further, China is not competing with
           USA in all front.  Those manufacture jobs will moved to
           somehwere else, Mexico, Indonesia, or some odd ex-Soviet
           block nation if it's not moved in China.   China is not
           running a high trade surplus in general (it has huge trade
           plus with USA, but trade deficit with virtually all its
           neighboring country, so in effect, China is the tiny
           lawn-mower engine of Asia... compare with USA being the
           jet engine of the world).
           Lastly, what would you think GM, Coke Cola, Motorolla think
           about rising RMB while big chunk of THEIR plant is in
           China?  These US firms are the benefisories of cheap Chinese
           \_ I don't disagree with you.  A few points though.
              Motorola, Coca-Cola, GM probably would not mind a slight
              controlled increase in the value of the Renminbi.
              They don't just have factories in China, an important
              and growing part of their market is very much there too.
              A pure export driven model like that of TW, SG, SK is not
              feasible for PRC because of its size.  It needs to be
              driven by internal demand.  Buying US dollars and debt
              forever is a no win game.  While US uses the money
              to invest and improve productivity (and spend on good
              life), China's local companies remain short of credit.
              And once US dollar devalues, you essentially threw
              away a big chunk of your dollars.  Instead, the money
              could be better invested in PRC, and help it innovate
              and move up the chain.  As for China's trade deficit
              ex-USA, a big part of it is raw materials and
              commodities from SE Asia, Australia, etc. needed for
              China's manufactures.  The trade deficit vis-a-vis Japan
              is more worrisome perhaps due to Japan's protectionism?
              As for manufacturing jobs moving to other countries,
              I am not too worried because I think China has a
              significant and growing margin (cost + productivity)
              versus those countries.  No one wants a sudden drastic
              increase in the value of the Yuan, but a slight,
              controlled increase may be a good idea.  This Econmist
              article pretty much sums it up:
        \_ Just a note. The Economist also uses every opportunity to point out
           that Russia's GDP is "slightly larger than Belgium's". Whoever at
           Economist who's making those ridiculous GDP comparisons between
           different countries, obviously hasn't gasped the concept of the
           purchasing power parity adjusted GDP.  They just compare the nominal
                      \- you know the e'ist is the magazine that invented
                         the BigMac index, right?
                         \_ An excellent point, but I should point out that
                            the Economist was merely the first publication
                            to popularize the BigMac Index.  It's been a
                            standard conversation topic among expats and
                            backpackers for much longer than it's been a
                            stay of the Economist.
                            \- topic of conversation != having a model and
                               computing it and correlating to FX futures,
                               comparing to PPP, UIP, RIP etc.
           GDPs as measured using US dollars using some exchange rate which is
           not saying much. In USA, dollar has a very low purchasing parity
           power compared to all poor counties and possibly most rich
           countries. Therefore, the non-purchasing power parity adjusted GDP
           does not convey much information about the size of economy. If you
           look at the PP adjusted GDP, then China is suddenly world's second
           largest economy. Of course, GDP still doesn't say much about how
           well off people are in a country. You'll have to look at the
           per capita GDP figures, and even then the per capita GDP can be a
           very rough measure depending on how equally on unequally the income
           is distributed.
           \_ And when you revalue the Yuan, PRC's GDP would go up immediately.
2003/9/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:10195 Activity:high
9/14    Regarding to thread regards to VW in China and environment.
        It is unfair to blame China or other developing nation for
        pollutions, as the reason why world is in such mess is because
        Britian and US of A has been doing more than their share of
        polluting for the past 150 years.  Ultimately, issue of pollution
        is closed related to energy use per capita, but developed nation
        is not going to give in upon this fundamental fact, as
        they are too happy with the lavashing life style at the expense
        of global environment.  Like farm subsidies, environment issue
        is another instrument to achieve wealthy nation's economic
        \_ Your analysis is flawed. You need to read up on how technology
           and development affect pollution levels. The relationship you
           draw between per-capita use and pollution is not well correlated.
        \_ It's not 'blame'.  There's an economic theory called 'the advantage
           of backwardness'--essentially, developing economies are able to
           leapfrog entire developmental steps, thereby avoiding being
           saddled with 'legacy' sectors and infrastructure (like steel and
           coal in the US).  A lot of the beef people have with China
           (and you can put a lot of this blame at the door of western
           manufacturers who don't supply Chinese consumers with goods meeting
           similar environmental standards) is that it's reaping the fruits
           of rapid development, without taking environmental responsibility
           accordingly.  And remember, energy use does not necessarily equal
           pollution (although very often this is sadly the case.)  -John
           \_ John, just to give you an example of CFCs, as you know, CFC
                is the stuff that kills ozone layer.  USA was pressing
                China to use CFC replacement and establish CFC recycle
                program on all its refrigerator and air conditioning.
                Could China leapfrog the CFC and uses CFC replacement
                directly?  in principle, yes.  But CFC cost more to
                and which nation USA or China,  contributed more to the
                destruction of ozone layer?
                If USA really care about environment, or actually
                manufacture.  Who is going to be asked to bear the
                extra cost?  China does.  who is the major manufacture
                of CFC replacement and its technology?  United States.
                Granted, if USA really care about environment, or actually
                show any sign of remorse on how much it has contributed to
                the destruction of ozone, you would think that USA and
                expand its market to China.   Another example.  You would
                think China can leapfrog the coal burning stage of
                industrial revolution.  Guess what, coal is the only form
                of fossil fuel which China has plenty of (and plenty is in
                a relative term).   China's coal, by comparison, is relatively
                "dirty" because it has high sulfur content, but what are
                the alternatives?  import natural gas from Canada, and
                petro from companies which US dominates?   You may have
                the best intentions, but in the end, it's always the lobbiest
                of the industry prevail.        --OP
           \_ John, as you can well imagine, the company that sells Chinese
              equipments see it as an ideal dumping ground for products that
              no longer satisfy stringent environmental regulations of the
              West.  I don't think there are a lot of Chinese who would like
              to pollute their own environment.  However, most officials in
              China in a position to decide what to purchase, whether in the
              public or private sectors, do not have much clue about what is
              ecological sound and what is not.  They are pressed between the
              stick of stern and often politically motivated criticism (there
              people who make a living by criticizing) and carrots (often
              bribes) waved by profit driven greedy companies.  Guess
              which side appeals to them more?  And the same thing happens to
              other developping countries as well.
                other developed nation would provide those CFC replacement
                at the regular CFC cost.  But no.  The opposite is happening.
                The administration at the time, pressued by the lobbiest and
                compaign contributor, was leveraging this CFC issue trying to
                expand its market to China.   In the end, it's all about
                who is making that extra buck.   Another example is the
                power-saving light bulb.  Those things are pretty popular
                in USA because it cuts power consumption  thus, energy use.
                But the manufacturing of this light bulb involves mercury and
                other exotic and toxic metals.  When you flick the light
                \_ If China cared about the environment, they'd pay the same
                   non-CFC costs as everyone else.  They live under the same
                   ozone layer and should care as much.  Or more than us if
                   you buy the claim below that having more people means they
                   care more about the environment.
                   \_ Everyone cares about the environment, as long as it's
                      not hitting their wallet.
        \_ I think it's perfectly fine to attempt to get china to
           conform to sane environmental policy, just like I think
           the bush administratin should regnize that we all live
           on the same planet and that paving it with reckless abandon
           with only regard to how it increases shareholder value is
           not the wisest way to govern.
           \_ China in some pervert way more concerned about environment
              simply because they got too many people and they would face
              the consequences of it a lot more quickly.
              \_ Wow, what an amazing bit of propoganda.  This is a flat-out
                 lie.  The Chinese government's actions speak infinitely louder
                 than their words on the environment issue.  The truth is they
                 don't give a shit.  Chinese environmental policy doesn't
                 exist.  The US has very strong laws compared to China and most
                 of the rest of the world.  Some parts of western Europe have
                 stronger laws but not across the board and a little money to
                 grease the wheels will get you over any little environmental
                 little bumps in the road there.  Back to China: the leaders
                 don't give a shit about the people.  If they lost a few
                 hundred million they could temporarily end the very unpopular
                 one child policy and improve the standards of living for the
                 \_ now, that is a lie.  just look at USA's carbon dioxide
                    emission.  by all account, USA is the worse pollutors
                    on face of the earth, and that is the fact.  You can
                    have all the environment law you want, it still doesn't
                    change the fact that USA is the worse pollutor on the
                    \_ I never said otherwise.  I said we have some of the
                       toughest laws and we enforce them.  No lie.  If you'd
                       like to stop consuming and can convince 270+ million
                       others to do the same then we'll be the least poluting
                       country on the planet.  You can start by turning off
                       your incredibly toxic computer and paying to have it
                       disposed of safely which will cost more than the market
                       value of the computer today.
                       \_ Nah, I think I will start by defacing a few SUVs.
           \_ Frankly, not enough of the world is paved.
2003/9/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10187 Activity:kinda low
9/13    Volkswagon sold more cars in China than in Germany
        \_ old news.  China already passed Germany as 3rd largest auto
           market in the world.  Mind you, that when that stat was taken,
           China has not open up market for auto-finance yet.  I am a
           Chinese, and I am deeply concerned with the way this is going.
           Most of China's city is not equipped for millions of cars, not
           to mention environment impact.
           \_ China has always been deeply concerned about the environment.
              \_ Yeah that's why they're building the 3 gorges river dam and
                 have been destroying their own rice paddies to the north of
                 Beijing for 20+ years with unsound farming methods.  The real
                 concern is we're down wind.  If they put enough shit in the
                 air from cars and heavy industry, it's going to blow right
                 over the pacific and settle in the pacific northwest and
                 parts of northern CA.  (The part of CA where Berkeley is for
                 those light on geography skills).
                 \_ hmm, ever heard of the Hoover dam?
                 \_ hopefully some smart guy in the gwbush admin has
                    realized this and is cooking up some great free
                    market scheme to deal with this problem, but
                    i really doubt it
                    \_ Um.  GWBush admin.... saving CA... yeah, right.  They'll
                       probably encourage China to drop emissions controls.
                     \_ I think they'll tell China about how they can
                        fix the environment by emitting deplted uranium.
                \_ Building?  It's completed.  Humans have been building dams
                   since 4000BC.  Last time I checked the Colorado is still
                   dammed.  Maybe you prefer that those Chinese provinces
                   (several hundred million people) continue to burn coal
                   \_ It's not fully operational.  They're still flooding out
                      the upriver areas, dislocating 10 million people and
                      wiping out big chunk of their own history.  And then
                      when the fault line they built it on goes, a few hundred
                      gazillion tons of water is going to wash out everything
                      down river to the ocean wiping out another few hundred
                      million people, but hey, as long as they don't burn coal
                      it's ok, right?  If you knew *anything* about this
                      project you wouldn't be so flip about it like it's yet
                      another random dam.  It isn't and you'd know that if
                      you knew anything, but you don't.  I notice you're also
                      completely ignoreant of the wide spread devastation
                      they're inflicting on their own food basket in the north.
                      \_ You are the one who mentioned "the real concern is
                         we're down wind".  Well, I can see how burning coal
                         would cause problem down wind, but not Yangtze
                         flooding.  In any case, now every two years,
                         millions of people get dislocated WITHOUT damming
                         due to flooding of the Yangtze.
                         \_ Maybe, but our environmentalism is more important
                            than Chinese flood dislocation.  They've been
                            flooded for thousands of years, and they should
                            be used to it by now.
                         \_ Their coal burning isn't an issue.  A few hundred
                            million cars and the heavy industry required to
                            make, maintain, and replace them is.  The 3 gorges
                            project is one example of how the environment is
                            not a concern there in any way, shape, or form.
                            The fact that they're destroying their own food
                            producing areas in the north is more than just bad
                            farm science, it's sheer insanity.  I wonder what
                            the next Five Year Plan will be.
           \_ You are a Chinese, but are you from China?
                \_ what differences does it make? -- heart in the motherland
                   \_ The person mentioned that he is "a Chinese".  What
                      differences does that make? -- heart for the humankind
        \_ Does VW manufacture cars in China now?
           \_not "now."  VW has been in China for almost a decade, if not
             \_  Go to Shanghai, the joint venture between VW and the local
                 manufacturer (forget their name), have the largets market
                 share in China currently.  I think their main $$$ maker is
                 the Santana.
        \_ Good thing China is in Kyoto - oh wait...
           \_ look at who is talking... the biggest pollutor in the damn
2003/8/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10023 Activity:low
8/30    I just walked by a really really fancy Chinese restaurant and
        according to the menu they serve shark fins, lion head, tiger paws,
        and peacock breasts. What's wrong with Chinese people? Shouldn't
        they go to jail for serving endangered species?
             \- did they serve troll? --psb
        \- did they serve troll? --psb
           \_ nothing wrong with serving troll.  they regenerate.
        \_ those are historical names.  none of that stuff is actually in
           \_ i thought shark fin soup has shark fin.
        \_ I've eaten a lot of moon cakes and sun biscuits.  -chinese
                               \- that's no moon --psb
                \_ are sun biscuits hot?
        \_ You forgot monkey brains and dog.
           \_ woof!
        \_ mmm civet
2003/8/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29453 Activity:high
8/23    what's really at stake in iraq:
        \_ NYTimes?  With their track record the last few years, you might as
           well post something from the National Enquirer.  (I didn't read the
           link because it doesn't matter what the NYT publishes anymore)
           \_ So you're sticking to reputable, unbiased sources like
              Washington Times and Fox News then, I'm assuming.  Fair
              and balanced!
              \_ Actually with people like Thomas Friedman and Judith Miller
                 writing for them the NYTimescan feel like Fox or the
                 Moonie Times sometimes.  Just that no one ever calls the
                 NYTimes on their bullshit.
                 \_ That's a decently written editorial with some interesting
                    points, which, whether you agree with him or not, are
                    well-argued and well-presented.  Regarding the Fox news
                    comparison, do you rate news sources for the opinions they
                    present, or for how they present them?  I don't know about
                    you, but I'm more interested in a persuasive, eloquent
                    argument that I disagree with, than a rah-rah piece of
                    demagoguery that meshes with my own opinions... -John
                    \_ Fox TV sounds *exactly* like the NYT to me.  It's just
                       from the opposing view and they don't take themselves
                       so gravely seriously like the NYT does for some
                       mysterious reason.  Oh yeah, Fox hasn't yet been busted
                       with multiple flat out ficticious "news reports" unlike
                       the NYT.  I can read opinion on the net without the NYT
                       filter tainting it.
                        \_ Well ain't it just peachy then that you have the god-
                           given right to choose your own news sources.  In any
                           case, that's not a news article, it is an op-ed
                           piece.  And good luck finding something completely
                           unbiased--if you're not consuming news with a grain
                           of salt, you've losing out regardless.  -John
        \_ Summary: Iraq is about culture, but we can't say that because it
           doesn't play well on TV.  It's an important war to win, on human
           rights grounds alone.  But Bush has handled this so idiotically--
           alienating our allies, trying bear the cost alone while cutting
                           accelerated production of nuclear weapons, there
           taxes domestically, and lying outright about the immediate need
           for war-- that we may lose it anyway.
                \_ Exactly which allies are those? France, who considers
                   Iraq their client state?  Germany, who sold
                   Iran their gas centrifuge technology and continually
                   insulted the President for domestic political gain?
                   Russia and China which remain Communist states?  Please
                   do explain yourself.
                   \_ I was going to explain how stupid this person was and
                      then I saw the he claims Russia is still a Communist
                      state and realized he has already done my work for me.
                           \_ All of the same apparitchik remain in power,
                           the KGB still exists, Putin is KGB, Russia has
                           accelerated R&D of nuclear weapons, there
                           is no free press, etc. etc.  To repeat, the same
                           elite holds power but they call themselves something
                           else.  I'd trust the judgement of leaders of
                           former eastern bloc countries than yours.
                  \_ How about China? It is a mirror opposite of Russia.
                     Same party, same people in power, but they've moved to
                     market economy since mid 1980's.  and you call China a
                     Communist state?
                     \_ I think China is going for a kind of nationalist
                        unification of big business and government, which
                        is what people call fascism.
                     \_ China's 'aspirations' for political and economic
                        freedom are transparent in its client state
                        North Korea.
                     \_ They haven't moved to a market economy.  They have
                        some of the highest barriers to entry in the world.
                        The whole thing is a giant state owned business.  Can
                        I get some of that shit you're smoking?
2003/7/31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29189 Activity:very high
7/30    Pentagon: China Aiming Missiles at Taiwan
        \_ China has been aiming missiles at Taiwan since they got their first
           missile.  This isn't news.  It also isn't news that they're going
           to invade as soon as they think they can pull it off.
           \_ China won't invade.  They'll consider it if Taiwan has a
              sovereignty referendum.  The U.S. will prevent Taiwan from doing
              that.  The U.S. and China both prefer the status quo.
              \_ Put another democrat in office and they will if they feel they
                 have the military might to do it.  China sure as hell does not
                 prefer the status quo.  It's a humiliation and international
                 \_ Laughably untrue.  PRC gets a lot of money in transfers
                    from Taiwan.  It's not worth their while to kill the
                    goose that lays the golden egg.  If the Brits hadn't
                    made their silly 99-year lease deal, PRC would not have
                    annexed Hong Kong either, for the same reasons.  Let's
                    face it:  PRC puts on a good show of pushing a state-run
                    economy, but they prefer the riches that capitalist
                    throat-cutting brings in.
                    \_ you have no clue don't you?
                    \_ contrary to what you may think, the Brits had no
                       choice. Just like how they lost most of their
                          \_ evil is what evil speaks.
                       \_ those f***ing brits have yet to paid for their
                          crime for colonizing half of the globe. fuck them!
                 \_ IMO, Taiwan is the rebellious child that China can
                    smack around when it gets tired of anti-U.S. propaganda.
                    I don't see the Taiwan issue as very humiliating for China,
                    especially when so many companies continue to move
                    operations from Taiwan to China.
                    \_ agree, and I am from Taiwan.
                    \_ For the cheap labor, not their technical expertise or
                       management ability.  The mainland is being used as the
                       third world country that it is.
                       \_ how do you breathe with your head in the sand?
                          don't you get sand in your snorkel?
                       \_ I'm just waiting for their brand spanking new dam
                          to break, killing millions (they've already been
                          reports of shoddy worksmanship on the project)
                          \_ evil is what evil speaks. -dubya
                          \_ you know, you really should shut up or you really
                             expose your ignorance on this subject.  The
                             mainland has techno-superiority over Taiwan
                             in many ways.
                             \_ In exactly what way did I imply any techno
                                comparison of China with Taiwan? Maybe you
                                should try rereading my post before arguing
                                with a point that is nonexistent.
                  \_ insufficient heavy lift/transport to hold the island b4
                     forces from the 7th fleet repel the invasion
                  \_ I heard even Australian navy can beat PRC navy.
                     \_ you've heard many things my child.
                        \_ Actually the guy is right.  PRC navy is inferior
                           to Australia's.  They only have a chance if it
                           is close to China's coast such that China's
                           air force and land-based missiles can play
                           a role.
                           \_ so how exactly is B*** admin going to hype
                              up the China threat thing again??
2003/6/23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic] UID:28818 Activity:very high
6/23    Justice O'Connor is a disgrace.  Souter and Stevens are morons.
        The court ruled that 'diversity' is a compelling state
        \_ You don't agree, so they are morons.  Compelling.  This was states'
           rights decision-making at it's finest.
        \_ Well, the old boys network is still like 200 million to 2.
        \_ i think Grat came out great. It says diversity is a state interest,
           but the university's policy is not narrowly enough construed. it
           strikes a really nice balance, in my opinion. -ali.
        \_ Dear Troll, real conservatives don't believe the judges serving
           the American people on the Supreme Court are morons because they
           didn't agree with *your* personal philophy.  As a real conservative
           I'm more happy than unhappy with the ruling.  Next time you try to
           make conservatives look like idiots, please make some minimal
           effort to get it right.  Thanks!  -rc
           \_ The Freepers disagree with you.
        \_ yeah AA is really based on "race" - esp when Asians are a smaller
           minority but get no preferences. Don't forget the first race to be
           discriminated against in this country were the Chinese. Any policy
           with AA is racist pure and simple.
           \_ got some revisionist history going on there?
           \_ at one point asians were outscoring the ethnic majority at
              Cal, they had to sue to allow more in. How's that for racism?
              Sounds like AA for the ethnic majority. And it wasn't so long
              ago. Also, the first race to be discriminated against in this
              country were the native americans.
2003/6/20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:28779 Activity:nil
6/19    To motd censor:
        perhaps you can understand why Chinese government constantly
        supress voice which they don't like now?
        \_ you're only feeding the beast.  really, i swear, the self appointed
           motd censors always grow out of it and move on.  a few of them have
           even turned into decent contributors.  just repost the lost
           material and ignore it.
2003/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:28752 Activity:nil 73%like:28746
6/18    http://csua.org/u/39y
        Yet another american soldier raping the local population. If our
        soldiers are raping allied civilians, what do you think they're doing
        to Iraqi women?
        \_ Buying them cheap. The starving and hopeless give the best bang for
           the buck.
        \_ the main issue is that US Military is pretty much immued to
           the local jurisdiction.  And that USA tend to be very protective
           of her own subjects.   This is nothing new.  A century ago,
           British nationals could pretty much get away with anything in
           China for the same reason.
           \_ Damn!  I wish I could be immued to the local jurisdiction!
           \_ Nonsense.  You seriously want our soldiers to be subject to the
              concept of 'justice' that exists in the many places we send our
              troops?  That's so naive and childish a concept it borders on
              the infantile.  If you want to avoid US Soldier/Local Civilian
              problems, the only way is to not have our soldiers in other
              countries.  The end results of that could be far far worse than
              the once per 4 years rape that happens.  If you were truly
              concerned about the locals around the world, you'd be screaming
              everyday about the UN boys from other countries that are
              actively and openly engaged in the sex slave trade buying,
              selling, and raping the same women they're sent there to protect.
              \_ US troops are hugely involved in the local sex trade, too.
                 Have you ever been to a military base overseas, or even
                 in the US? The nearest town is almost always full of
                 prostitution. It is hypocritical to condemn the UN
                 soldiers of doing this while ignoring the fact that
                 the US does the same thing. -veteran
                 \_ There is also a problem with sexual assault/rape
                    within the armed forces, and fraternization, too.
                 \_ It would be better if the US soldiers weren't customers
                    but our officers are not actively engaged in buying,
                    selling, and moving women around the world.  You're trying
                    to make some sort of moral equivalency which doesn't
                    exist.  Example: a pot smoker in Berkeley is *not* the
                    same level of criminal as the grower moving a few tons of
                    pot every year.  Both are criminals but one would get a
                    small fine at worst while the other would get big time at
                    the big house.  (insert your drug of choice in that)
                    \_ And the US tends to cover up those nasty rumors about
                       permitting military contractors to have child sex slaves.
                    \_ True enough. While visiting prostitues certainly
                       creates the demand for the sex trade, it is not
                       the same kind of crime as actually running it. -veteran
              \_ Flapdoodle.  There's no need to make this an either-or
                 proposition.  Improve the process by which these cases
                 are reviewed by military tribunal, and hand over suspects
                 in non-frivolous, evidence-supported cases.  This will
                 protect the troops from malicious and baseless accusations
                 and still address real problems.
                 \_ Ok, let's say a US soldier is involved in an evidence
                    supported case in Pakistan.  You're going to turn that guy
                    over to the mullahs running the northwest province under
                    shariah islamic laws?  Why don't you just do him a favor
                    and put him in front of a firing squad instead?
                    \_ Hey, if you do the crime in a foreign country, you
                       get to face the consequences of your actions.  That
                       said, we could even modify the process to weed out
                       crimes for which we have no analog here in the US
                       and (like Mexico) refuse to extradite criminals if
                       we believe the expected punishment will be cruel and
                       unusual by our standards.  There's a lot of room to
                       work with here.
                       \_ The difference is that a soldier doesn't have any
                          choice about going to some third world shit hole with
                          brutal laws and no justice.  As a civilian I can
                          choose to not be subjected to that by simply not
                          booking the flight.  Soldiers go where they're told
                          to go.  They should be subject to the US code of
                          military justice.  That's why it exists.  I'm not in
                          any way saying rape is ok or that our guys shouldn't
                          get punished for it.  I'm saying they should be
                          consistently subject to the same code no matter where
                          they might be assigned.
                          \_ We have a draft again?  Oh whoops, it's all
                             volunteers.  And last I checked, I was able to
                             contain my hormones enough to not rape anyone.
                             Bring 'em all home, stop wasting my dough.  -John
        \_ My country Singapore is the smartest.  We let US have small base
           in Singapore in case commie China turn into big bad wolf.  US
           has no better choice since getting kicked out of Pilipines.
           Also, we tell US to follow local jurisdiction just like Michael
           Fay.  Small little red light district in Geylang for horny US
           GIs, but no mischief or arse gets cane.  Neighborhood bullies
           like Malaysia and Indonesia also don't dare to cause mischief
           with US base in Spore.  By the way, we detained like 10 terrorists
           without trial over the years.   US beat us by detaining 762 in
           Guatanamo Bay.  Poor GIs in boring Geyland with ugly spore girls
           must miss Olongapo bad.
           \_ LAH!
           \_ Guatmo.. A lovely place. Females staying there are advised upon
              arriving to lock their doors and keep a loaded firearm nearby
              because the US marines and navy boys tend to get a little wild.
              I've had female friends talk about being woken up in the middle
              of the night as drunken sailors and marines attempted to knock
              down their door for a little unrequested R&R.
              \_ I'm sure they're willing to pay after.  What's the problem?
                 \_ Yermom keeps wanting more than the $5 she's worth.
2003/6/11 [Politics, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:28706 Activity:insanely high
6/11    I highly recommend Amy Chua's book "World on Fire".  She writes about
        how market-dominant minorities (chinese in SE asia, indians in
        east africa, jews in post-communist russia, whites in zimbabwe, etc)
        disproportionally benefit from free market economy.  Blindly promoting
        democracy and free market leads to disaster in most third world
        \_ OMG the jews are dominating the economy in Russia?  Let's drag
           'em all out and gas 'em.  While we're at it, let's nail the
           chinks, the ragheads, and the honkies too.
           \_ Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer, baby.
        \_ Mugabe is solving the problem in Zimbabwe by allowing roaming thugs
           to murder white farmers and take their land.  The result is that the
           already-bad food shortage is getting worse because the farmers who
           were actually farming have been killed.  Oh, and the poaching of
           endangered species there is going through the roof due to the
           disorder.  Yay.
           \_ He isn't "allowing".  It is government sponsored and the thugs
              getting the best land are his own relatives and army generals.
              \_ Sorry about that.  I didn't have any good references that made
                 that claim.  Thanks for clearing it up.
                 \_ I've posted it to the motd before.  I might be able to
                    find it again if anyone cared.
        \_ What you miss is that economies can not transform third world
           cesspools into first world liberal democracies overnight.  A
           complex set of institutions, such as the rule of law and
           property rights, must develop incrementally.  This can be
           a painful experience (although less so than Marxism) -
           as evidenced in Western economic development.
           Also, her thesis, like most liberals, implicitly assumes some
           in vogue 'mascot' group has been victimized by
           another ethnicity, implying the group is unable to govern
           themselves.  This is thinly veiled racism, and only perpetuates
           the problem by deflecting responsibility
           for their actions and the governments they support.  With the
           libs its always Im a victim and its someone else's fault.
           \_ And free markets are the best way to establish the rule of law...
           \_ responsibility?  for one's own actions?  are you a Republican?!
           \_ Name one country that has followed the free market prescription
              to success in the 60 years since the end of WWII. All the
              countries that have tried: Russia, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia,
              El Salvador, etc, are impoverished. The few countries that have
              risen from general poverty have all protected their markets,
              imposed tariffs on imports to help grow local industry, and
              avoided IMF and World Bank meddling: Singapore, Taiwan and
              South Korea. The Free Market ideologues have a good line of
              rhetoric, but a very poor track record.
              \_ For what purpose was the IMF was created? - hint post WWII
                 reconstruction.  Irony is all the states you mentioned
                 have socialist / marxist tendencies.  Chile, incidentally,
                 under the nationalist anti-communist Pinochet has
                 done quite well compared to its neigbors.  Further,
                 'Free trade' and economic liberialism are not equivalent,
                 and if you read my statement, nowhere did I imply as
                 [indent corrected]
              \_ just curious on the motd opinions, where does israel fit into
                 these discussions?  aren't they a free market and how was it
                 all established to work so much better than other nations?
        \_ If I order this book through Amazon, do I get put on the FBI
           potential terrorist list?
2003/6/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:28704 Activity:insanely high
6/11    So why is it that Taiwan and Tibet don't understand that the
        motherland just wants to protect them and to be a part of greater
        china as they've always been?  Since china always owned these
        places and they're the same people and culture what do they need
        their own country for?
        \_ Tibet is not Chinese. Tibet was isolated and had few ties with
           the outside world.  If they had been involved in the world,
           perhaps wewould have had a Tibetan War like the Korean war.
           \_ But the motherland just wants what is best for all its people.
              I don't understand why anyone in Tibetan part of china would
              resist a good thing?  Many places have different people.  Tibet
              is more chinese now than indian where Tibetan cult leader now
              hides and stirs disent against motherland.
              \_ your chinese-faking fu needs improvement
              \_ Please desist from infringing my trademark  - m.stewart
           \_ China mostly just leave Tibet alone, and in fact, helped
              Tibet repulsed a few invaders (eg. Nepal) in the old days.
              Then Evil White Men (tm) came and tried to make Tibet
              an outpost of the British Empire (an extension of British
           \_ Yes Tibet is China after enough Chinese move in and take
              up residence, like in the occupied territories of palestine
        \_ Bad troll.
        \_ http://www.taiwannation.com.tw/english.htm
              India, I guess).  Then Tibet became a matter of vital
              national interest (with British gunboats already roving on
              the other side of China) for China, and they started insisting
              on occupying and controlling it like some frothing at the
              mouth, raving mad guard dogs.
              \_ See?  Tibet always part of China until British attack and
                 try to make colony.
                 \_ Nah, Tibet has always been part of the FNNCA (Federation
                    of Nomadic Nations of Central Asia).  Your Chinese-
                    faking fu is still weak.
        \_ By that reasoning the American Revolution was a waste of time,
           and the US should just be a British colony still.  There is more
           to nations than culture.
           \_ Tibet is not revolutioning from china!  Tibet *is* china, not
              colony.  American colonies from many places, not just Britain.
        \_ Your Chinese-faking fu is weak.
           \_ You are splittist!
              \_ yea, I'd like to split yermom's legs.
        \_ China is protecting Taiwan and Tibet from what?
2003/5/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28563 Activity:high
5/26    Bush Ban on Chinese Imports
        \_ Good for Bush.
        \_ Even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.
                \_ I love Chinese proverb. Where can I find more?
           \_ Yeah, it would be terrible to give Bush credit for doing
              something you like.
              \_ If Bush did it, he can't like it.  If Bush found and shared
                 the Fountain of Youth, he'd complain about how all these
                 newly young people are hiking through the woods and killing
                 the owls' natural habitat and it's all Bush's fault.  There's
                 nothing like raw blind hatred to get you through the day.
                 \_ mmm, conservative hypocracy...
                    \_ I don't think that word means what you think it means.
                    \_ Hell, I don't think that word is spelled the way you
                       think it is.
                    \_ Conservatives do not believe in hate. They believe
                       in tolerance and using reason to convince their
                       opponents. See Rush Limbaugh, Micheal Savage, Ann
                       Coulter, Fox News, etc.
                        \_ and if that doesn't work, we can always invade
                           the country in the name of WMD and democracy.
        \_ Generally, not a Bush fan - op
        \_ hypocrisy written all over.   If anything, USA is the one
           who has the global ambition of be the hegemony of the world.
           It is USA that has the 2nd large stockpiles of WMD and had
           history of unleashing on defendless civilians for "moral"
           "communication" and "scientific" reasons.  USA is the
           largest arms dealer in the world.  And many of its product
           is also manufactured by prisoners.
2003/5/27-28 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:28559 Activity:very high
5/26    What happens when OSHA isn't looking:
        \_ Does Toyota make forklifts?  If not, we know this is a toyota plant.
        \_ Does Toyota make forklifts?  If not, we know this is a toyota
           \_ Yes, Toyota does make forklifts.
        \_ That's hilarious.  But the 2 guys on the orange lift should be
           sitting on the back of the yellow one to keep it from tipping.
           \_ The yellow forklift won't tip over.  If there weren't any
        \_ I bet this is in China.
                                - Chinese geek
              guys on the orange forklift, how could they operate the
              orange forklift?
           \_ Forklifts have counterweights to prevent tipping.
        \_ I bet this is in China. - Chinese geek
           \_ Except those guys don't look Chinese.
              \_ They look kind of Philipino to me.
                 \_ Hmmm, all Filipino workforce...that narrows it down to
                    about a hundred coutries.
                    \_ could be Indonesian, Malaysian, Vietnamese
                 \_ Filipino
                    \_ Pilipino
                        \_ that is a valid option
           \_ It's an Iraqi WMD plant.
        \_ Never ever hire anyone named Homer Simpson at your work.
2003/5/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:28456 Activity:very high
5/15    Just give you an idea what kind of crap we have to put up here in
        Taiwan: They found out that  Ministry of Health, on one hand, begging
        for join the WHO, on the other hand, stockpiling hundreds of
        thousands of N95 masks while major hospitals here are having
        severe shortage of protective gears for the medical staffs. The motive
        is not exactly clear.
                \_ it'd be immoral to leave taiwan out of who.
                   \_ it is immoral to leave the world's hospital workers
                      susceptible to all the airborn diseases they are trying
                      to save people from, especially when these masks have
                      never been shown to stop SARS and most people have no
                      experience using these masks (it is just their false
                      peace of mind vs. a real threat of infection from truly
                      airborn diseases to medical staff).
                      Oh, and LEARN HOW TO INDENT you simple minded fool.
        \_ Clearly evil Western forces are at play....
        \_ It's just the standard Chinese tactic of looking out for #1.
           Chinese (and all Easterners) don't really have a moral code,
           it's all about face.  They'll do any damned thing if they think
           they won't get caught.
           \_ I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds
              like you're damning them with false praise if not simply
              making a racist judgement based on limited knowledge and
              experience.  Can you provide context for your comments?
              \_ It would be funny if the person complaining were from
                 mainland China, and the person who responded were not
                 \_ Perhaps, but would then make even more inexplicable
                    the lumping of all Easterners together.
                    \_ unless he or she were trying to troll you
2003/5/15-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:28452 Activity:nil
5/15    what is a reasonable way for me to pay the shipping from china for
        a company that is going to ship me a sample?  I can only find Fed-Ex
        (UPS doesn't ship from where i want) and it is going to be over $50
        for a small package.  That seems excessive.  Any advice?
        \_ that is about the right price.  I don't know about China, but
           don't they have some sort of Postal Service there?
2003/5/12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:28414 Activity:very high
5/11    "Doctors say spitting, sometimes referred to as China's national
        pastime, can propel droplets to others and inadvertently spread SARS."
        Can someone explain how/why spitting is a pastime?
        \_ just more white racism.
        \_ isn't the implication obvious? stereotypically speaking,
           chinese guys (well, the ones from asia) spit a lot.
           -chinese guy that doesn't spit a lot
           \_ wow, this is one i hadn't heard before or noticed. is this a
              China or Taiwan or all chinese in general thing?
              -another chinese guy who rarely spits
              \_ Can only vouch for Shanghai and Fujian province, but yes,
                 all sorts of people were hawking all over the place.
                 Watched this very beautiful young lady walk down the
                 street, pause, and hawk a loud one before she continued
                 sashaying.  Talk about culture shock.
                 \_ I'll vouch for jiangsu province--same thing.  snot shots
                 \_ "sashaying".  What a beautiful word.  Thanks for using it.
                    \_ you're welcome!
           \_ this is Chinese in general thing.  Taiwan had a movement
              to get rid of it and had pretty good degree of success.
              Beijing is doing the same after they won the Olympic bid.
              Beijing is deadily serious about it now :p
              \_ In Hong Kong twenty or so years ago they started fining people
                 HK$2000 (~US$400, with the exchange rate back then) for
                 spitting onto the ground.
        \_ Yankee go home.
        \_ I disagree.  Among those under 40, I actually find Americans spit
           more.  Maybe they are just learning from their baseball players.
           \_ I've never seen anyone spit unless they had something vile like
              a bug fly into their mouth.  Dunno which barns you're hanging
              out in.  Keep your racism and ageism to yourself, thanks.
              \_ You need to pop your head out of the pig's arse once in a
                 \_ You mean I need to hang out in barns and sleep in the
                    swill with the likes of you?  It's a bad thing that I
                    don't hang out with spitting gutter trash like you?
                    \_ Next time when our national pasttime is on, stop
                       hanging out with the pig and yersis in the barn, go
                       home, turn on the TeeVee and watch the spit fly.
        \_ I think smoking is the real national pasttime there.
        \_ I agree with the article and I'm chinese.  The general perception
           amongst the non-mainland chinese is that the mainlanders are
           backward rural people with poor personal hygiene.  I thought it
           was a stereotype until I came into contact with them.  Damn.  Not
           only do the men smoke a lot, they smoke in front of their children
           and yes, they do spit a lot also.  Also they don't wash their hands
           after going to the bathroom.  That's one reason why I almost never
           go to chinese restaurants.  And reason why I never want to go to
           china either.   The bathrooms are china are scary.  No toilet
           paper and often no doors!  that's right, you crap out in the open.
           \_ Plus the toilets are squatters, you're lucky if you have a three
              foot high partition, and you have to pay for the experience.
           \_ RACIST!
              \_ on the bus from one city to another, we stopped for a roadside
                 break. there were public toilets in the back of one bldg. no
                 doors on the 2 entrances to the bathrooms, and you could see
                 a row of squatting toilets. ppl tried to use the less obvious
                 ones cause when you gotta go, you gotta go. some ppl just
                 stuck their hands in the common hand washing bucket instead
                 using the supplied handled cup to get a dunk of water to pour
                 over your hands. Needless to say, I just held my bladder until
                 we got to our destination. It was gross, and unsanitary. It's
                 not RACIST, just 3rd world conditions. also, people on the bus
                 threw their trash in the middle aisle of the bus. yeech!
                 \_ What is racist isn't their conditions but your holier than
                    thou attitude about it.  It was gross?  They 'live' like
                    that every single day!  'yeech!'  Oh yeah?  Well what did
                    *you* do to help improve their situation?  Wore a condom
                    when you had sex with the 12 year old enslaved prostitute?
                    \_ I'm not the original "racist" poster, and this is just
                       commentary of my trip in China. There isn't anything I
                       could do personally to help them like building new
                       toilets at every bus stop and so forth. However, I'm
                       sure that my spending of tourist dollars in their
                       economy must have helped someone. Sorry, but that's the
                       best I can do. Perhaps, both you and the original poster
                       can both work on your attitudes. that said, I really
                       enjoyed my trip to China and would go back in a heartbeat,
                       if I had the $$$ and there was no SARS. China is still
                       3rd world, but is quickly catching up. There is still
                       something special about old China and it was great to
                       experience it before they modernize and it's all lost.
                       In my experience, a lot of city folks look down on the
                       ppl from the countryside which since it's in China,
                       cannot be called racism (classism?). But they are the
                       pillars of the new economy, and the countryside is very
                       beautiful, and these ppl tend to be quite nice in general.
                       A lot of ppl working the restaurants are from the
                       countryside and no one ever seems to say "thank you"
                       to them, I did, though. and those were some of the most
                       genuinely beautiful smiles I saw while I was there. Oh,
                       and I didn't have sex with 12 year olds.
                       \_ How many of you people disgusted with spitting
                          get or give blowjobs?
2003/5/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28392 Activity:nil
5/9     Where is the Freeper Outrage when you need it?
        Could it be that Republicans get a free pass for this thing?
        \_ Don't worry.  My man Pat Buchanan will be all over this like
           the good Reform Party head that he is.
2003/4/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:27985 Activity:high
4/4     Are there any national awards given out to office mates whose
        annoying hapits really set them apart from the crowd?  I have
        someone in mind I'd like to nominate for an award.
        \_ What's he or she doing?  Flicking boogers at you?
           \_ -laptop has volume all the way up, with lot's of error noises
                made frequently
              -chair squeeks loudly, and he fidgets constantly
              -severe cologne use in small, enclosed space should be illegal
              -loud shlurping  noises made while drinking soda, which he
               does constantly
              \_ A problem solved by headphones won't earn him anything.
              \_ if it weren't for the cologne, i would ask if your officemate
                 is chinese.
           \_ I stil haven't figured out which is worse:
              -the guy next to me with the *major* BO problem
              -or the other guy with the strong cologne
              On the one hand, BO is pretty bad, but at least it's not
              making my eyes water from the cologne.
              \_ oh, yeah, i forgot to mention that the cologne isn't this
                 guy's first chemical attack.  he also decided to wash his
                 desk with a large quantity of un-diluted degreasing
                 compound at one point; that was actually far worse.
        \_ The guy next to me plays House Music very loudly.  How much of,
           "dut! dut! dut! dut!" do you think a guy can stand before losing it?
2003/4/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Health/Disease/General] UID:27951 Activity:nil
4/1     Those who disputed the seriousness of SARS, are you a little scared
        now?  The number of cases is doubling by the week.
        Even if the death rate is only 3 percent, if they can't isolate it,
        and it infects 100 million people, ...
        -- [motd grammar daemon spirit]
        \_ no
        \_ Yes I am.
        \_ Have you been to Hong Kong and the Guangdong province?  Shit-holes.
           If an epidemic will scourge the place clean, great.  If it takes
           China and the rest of SE Asia down with it, even better.  Kill them
           all and let God sort them out.
           \_ Have YOU been to Hong Kong?  Which parts are shitty?
           \_ I don't know about crappy third world places like Guangdung or
              Singhapoor, but Hong Kong is one of my favorite cities, and I
              think there's a reason why life expectancy there is comparable
              to that of Japan.
              \_ Talk to me about life expectancy *after* the epidemic.
                 \_ I wouldn't be surprised if life expectancy may become even
                    lower than that of Australians.
                    \_ Bwahahaha!  Murder death kill!  Murder death kill!
           \_ Who's going to manufacture all the cheap computer hardware if
              that happens?
        \_ The number of cases usually goes up before it goes down.
        \_ In an effort to pacify people, my company has provided "antiseptic
           handwash in all washrooms". This substance is nothing more than
           your typical antibacterial soap (generic Dial). I think that will
           be very useful against this virus.
2003/3/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27579 Activity:very high
3/2     http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html
        Not surprising that we've been spying on the other members of the
        security council, but it still sucks.
        \_ you do remember what happened to that plane that crashed while
           spying on China, right?
           \_ or China spying on the U.S. stealing our nuclear and other
              technological secrets.
              \_ wait a second... please tell me you're not talking about
                 that one Chinese scientist guy who got arrested for "stealing
                 \_ Champion of human right.  That scientist was shackled from
                    waste down, in a solitary confinement 23 hours a day for
                    9 month before he was released on the ground of lack of
                        \_ Get it right. Only some of the charges were dropped.
                           He is still guilty of some serious offenses. For
                           someone who betrayed America he was treated very
                           very well.
                 \_ SOMEHOW China got schematics for one of our nuclear warhead
                    designs.  It might not have been Wen Ho Lee, but someone,
                    somewhere either was very stupid or sold us out.  --PeterM
                    \_ still, it's not an excuse for lock up people based
                        upon his nation of origins... despite that it is
                        part of American's tradition and the cornerstone
                        which this nation is build upon.
                    \_ Yeah, just like the design of gunpowder, years ago.
                        \_ Gun powder chemistry and nuclear chemistry
                           are vastly different. Gun power can be made
                           at home using stuff that occurs naturally in
                           most parts of the earth.
                        \_ technology is technology.  it may look simple
                           in the hindsight.
                           \_ You are either funny or humorous, but not both,
                              both of you.
        \_ Every country with the resources spies on every other country they
           can afford to spy on.  To think otherwise is naive and childish.
           This isn't the playground where little bobbie looked inside little
           jennies lunchbag and stole her cookie.
           \_ That's filthy!
           \_ No, this is worse.  It's bad enough that we're spying on members
              of the Security Council, but it's unforgiveable that we're
              incompetent enough to get caught at it.  We're supposed to be
              the sole remaining World Power, and we can't even bug phones
              without a leak?
                \_ Did you even read the article? The NSA wasn't caught
                   \_ What part of "without a leak" didn't you get?
                   in the act. Rather some traitorous coward leaked a
                   classified memo to the press. BTW, why shouldn't we
                   be spying on the countries that make up the sec.
                   council or any other country? Most of these nations
                   wouldn't hesitate to stick it to America given the
                   \_ get out of American and travel around the world.
                      you will then learn America is not as popular as
                      you would think.
                        \_ I have traveled in Europe and Asia. So what
                           if a bunch of people living in conditions
                           barely fit to be called civilized don't like
                           America. Who fricking cares?!? Just because
                           they've got a flag, a parliment and a bunch
                           of bureaucrats grown fat on bribes isn't any
                           reason for the finest nation in the history
                           of this world to yeild to their worthless
                           \_   This is kind of attitude along with
                                what US's action which reflect such
                                attitude, are the reason why other
                                nations hates America.  And remember,
                                there was point in time we don't care about
                                Pakistein and Afghanistein.  You will be
                                suprised sometimes how much these
                                people, who barely consistutes as
                                civilization as you described, can be
                                either helpful or debilitatingly harmful.

                   \_ And that makes it right to listen in on their phone
                      conversations and email to determine which way they're
                      going to vote on a resolution the Pres. says isn't
                      necessary anyway?  Look up the word "ethics."
                                \_ Can you be so naive to think that
                                   we can trust the other members of
                                   the security council? Except for
                                   the UK, none of the other permanent
                                   or temporary members can be considered
                                   trustworthy. It is in the best interest
                                   of this nation to know what the hell
                                   those fools are upto at all times.
                                   When you swim with sharks...
                                   \_ We're the most powerful nation
                                      on earth, and we have the most
                                      extensive intelligence network
                                      in the world, and we're using that
                                      to figure out whether six fence-
                                      sitters are going to back a war
                                      we pretend we can wage w/o their
                                      support are going to vote with
                                      us or not?  Pshaw on your shark
                        \_ You sound like Jimmy Cartah, aka mr. ethics,
                           and CIA Director Stansfield Turner.
                           Based on their sucess in North Korea, Iran
                           and Nicaragua, maybe you should reconsider
                           your position.
                           \_ whoever deleted my post... fuck *YOU*
                              next time, be a man and try to some up
                              with something to counter my arguement
                              instead of being a fucking chicken
                           \_ Nicaragua?  You mean the country that
                              fairly and freely elected a socialist
                              government over our objections?  I'd
                              consider Nicaragua a victory despite
                              our best intentions.
2003/3/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:27578 Activity:nil
3/1     Tech is dead.  Long live Corn. http://tinyurl.com/6p25
        \_ Dry enough that it might just work.
2003/2/28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:27560 Activity:nil
2/27    Li Ka-Shing Seeks U.S. Contract
2003/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27338 Activity:nil
2/7     http://csua.org/u/909 - Dubya orders "Cyberwar"
        \_ Please try to get it right.  He didn't "order" any such thing.
           Your own link makes it clear this is just the creation of guidelines
           for when and how the US might attack foreign computer systems.  We
           should have done this in the previous administration.  Doing it now
           puts us only 5 years behind the Chinese and probably others.  Once
           again the US plays catchup.
2003/2/6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/History/WW2] UID:27317 Activity:very high
2/5     Question for you freepers: what's with all the reference to
        "commies" and "pinkos" on the site?  I thought communism was dead.
        \_ Communism was dead?  What about Cuba and North Korea?
                                \_ Don't forget China.
                                   \_ don't forget Berkeley
                                        \_ Real Communism hasn't yet
                                           been tried in Berkeley ;-)
                                           \_ They should.  They'd fall out
                                              of love with it FAST ENOUGH.
                                          \_ Real Communism never been tried
         \_ What is wrong with Communism?
           \_ and the freepers who call everyone who dissagrees with them
              "commies" are saying that they're all in league with north
              korea or cuba?  are they really that dumb?
           controls their legislature.  CHINA, Argentina, SOuth Africa,
           \_ Who cares about N. Korea. That country's about to collapse
              under its own weight. Just give it some time. Cuba couldn't
              hurt the U.S. if its life depended on it. It's like a
              football player saying that an emaciated homeless person
              is a threat to his life.
        \_ Ok, then what is the difference between Communist / Socialist
           beliefs and a large contigent of the Democratic party?  Much of
           Europe is communist / socialist.  The French Communist Party,
           CHINA, Venezuela, SOuth Africa,
           numerous other countries in Africa, Brazil, are all communist
           or heading that way.
           \_ Are you really that stupid?
              \_ Yeah, probably.
                 \_ Start with http://csua.org/u/8e7
                    and see what Engels had to say about Socialism.
           \_ stop putting your mental diarrhea on the motd
                \_ Ok so I ask a question on the differences between
                   the Democratic platform and socialism, and the answer
                   is an insult.  FDR, the prototypical commie/socialist,
                   was jealous of Stalin because of he was much more
                   effective at government control.
                   FDR's administration was replete with communist
                   spies or sympathisers.   The ACLU, UN etc. were
                   all founded by Socialists or Communists.  Since I am so
                   naive, I'll ask the question again.  If you are
                   not Socialist, what are you? 'Progressive'.  And I guess
                   I really am this stupid as the rulers of the countries
                   I mentioned freely admit their intentions and political
                   affiliations.  So I guess Venezuela sending Cuba
                   free oil is meaningless?
2003/2/2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:27279 Activity:high
2/1     Is it Chinese New Year weekend?
        \_ yes.  now how do you get Goat from the chinese character
           for Sheep?
           \_ Ask danh about tickets....
           \_ I think it's supposed to be a ram, and I guess some people think
              goats are male sheep?
2002/11/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:26666 Activity:high
11/28   http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021129-3530784.htm
        Fox news continues to gain audience share while all others lose.
        What can we do to save the American people from themselves?!  Anyone
        with common sense should be able to easily see that Fox is just
        extremist right wing nutter propoganda while MSNBC is a bastion of
        fairness and neutral reporting.  We must save MSNBC so the truth can
        be heard!
        \_ right.  by the logic of the editorial , it's not propoganda
           because it's got so many viewers.  By this logic, neither is
           the People's Daily:
2002/11/24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/RealEstate, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:26614 Activity:high 66%like:26612
11/23   landlord survey - your landlord is:
        black, white, puertorican or chinese boy: M
        \_ what's a "puertorican"?
        \_ Ever heard of "Puerto Rico"?
           \_ he means Borricuan.  (yes look it up).
           \_ Yes.  What's a "puertorican"?
              \_ its "Puerto Rican" with a typo. get over it.
               \_ Goddamn, one fucking space left out... it was a quote from a
                  shitty missy elliot song in case you didnt know.
        dirty, old, and indian:
        other azn:
        persian: .
        \_ are there persians anywhere but iran? why dont people say iranian?
        a jew: .
             \_ you mean evil money grubbing vampiric baby killing jew, right?
                \_ You forgot lying, and backstabbing.
                \_ mmm, vampiric babies
                   \_ I believe it's a string of adjectives modifying the
                      object jew but you knew that.
        who cares?: .............
        small, green, and filled with jam: .
        racist: go BEAH
        old white woman with 6 cats, 2 birds, and an old mangy dog: .
        no idea: .
2002/11/2-3 [Academia/Berkeley, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:26388 Activity:very high 50%like:26360
11/2    Chancellor Tien has died? how sad. - former grad.
                                                \_ you graduated and then
                                                   un-graduated? --aaron
        \_ former grad?  uhhh, yeah.  i used to be a grad, too,
           then i went through a div stage, and now i've settled
           down to being a curl.  I wanted to be a Laplace operator,
           but i flunked the test three times.
                \_ hey, you're not a dork!
        \_ But Michael Heyman is still alive!  Rejoice!
                \_ was he a bad chancellor?
                   \- i think IMH might have been a little more aloof
                      to more students ... law school, bowtie and all
                      that ... but i thought he was ok.
                      \_ you think?  he might?  We knew the same IMH?
                      \_ you think?  he might?  We knew the same IMH?  The one
                         I knew was a negative for Cal in all ways.  Just
                         because he didn't rape your sister doesn't mean he
                         was ok.  You're clearly clueless.
        \_ I am sad too. :(
           \_ Cheer up. You'll die yourself before long.
        \_ me too.  Most people don't understand what does it
           take for him to accomplish this much in his short life.
           Left the mainland China because of his family background
           does not compatible with the Communist, left Taiwan, probably
           knew that the so-called Taiwanese would never accept him.
           Put up with all sort of racial discrimination in the US.
           Got his political career cut short because of the political
           witch hunt (lead by Cox) targeted at people of Chinese origin.
           He was a man defied all the injustices, in China, in US, and
           find a platform to contribute.
           \_ there are alot of great things to say about tien.  let me
              just add this:  his thermo text kicks ass.
           \_ nice little victim rant.  Don't denegrate the man by turning
           \_ nice little victim rant.  Don't denigrate the man by turning
              him into your "Chinese Victim Does Good Despite Racist US" poster
2002/10/31-11/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/Editors/Emacs] UID:26367 Activity:low
10/30   emacs question...  For Chinese pin-yin input, how to enter
        word like nv (female)?  they don't let me use "v" as unlaut-u
        thanks in advance
        \_ for normal pin-yin, it's nuu
           \_ thanks, i figured out.  It's not "uu,"  it's
              "u:" to mimic the unlaut.  make more sense, i guess.
2002/10/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:26129 Activity:very high
10/8    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021004/170/2dkgl.html
        Chinese biker dude falls to death while trying to jump Great Wall.
        Last two links show them ensuring he will die by not stabilizing him
        before moving him.
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
          \_ OFF CLIFF!
        \_ Hey, look, this is China.  They've got lots of extra people.  One
           more or less makes no difference.  It is to everyone's benefit over
           there and the rest of the world if the idiots kill themselves.
        \_ idiots...  no wonder stunt organization is so much more anal in
           the US.
        \_ Told you helmets didn't work.
           \_ Right.  Well, a token bike helmet sure doesn't, that's why
              real stunt riders wear standard full-helmets w/ neck support.
           as those here to know enought about not moving an injured body.
        \_ aww, GROSS. i can hear his bone fragments jostling from here.
           what idiots moving him like that. --aaron
        \_ Well, just because the caption says "shortly before he died",
           doesn't mean that he wasn't already dead.
        \_ People in third world countries on average are not as well-educated
           as those here to know enough about not moving an injured body.
           It's natural instinct to think "Oh no, he's hurt!  Take him to the
           doctor quickly before he dies!"  Even some moms and dads here will
           react this way when their kids fall from a high chair.
           \_ The reason this is more well known among the general US
              population is due to 3 reasons mostly: People watch
              (1) Fooball, (2) WWF, (3) Ice Hockey.
              \_ Hmm, I don't watch WWF, Ice Hockey or "Fooball", and I
                 know that.  BTW, is "Fooball" some kind of programming game?
                 \_ I don't know about fooball, but I've been playing
                    barball for years.  never knew it was a spectator
           \_ The last picture shows someone in a uniform that looks like
              either law enforcement or medical, so, it really is a pathetic
              state of affairs over there in 3rd world land.
2002/10/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Recreation/Media] UID:26123 Activity:moderate
10/7    Reviews of Miyazaki's "Spirited Away"?  I usual avoid dubbed versions
        of Miyasaki's work, but I haven't gotten a hold of the original
        japanese version with either english or chinese subtitles yet.  Is
        it worth watching this dubbed version?  Thanks.
        \_ I liked the dubbed version better -pld
        \_ It was a surreal trip.  I didn't mind the dubbing so much.  If you
           like his stuff, I'd watch this ... especially on weed!
        \_ the kabuki is playing the non dubbed version
        \_ Even dubbed it's a must see. Better than PM not as classic as
                MNT or NPoV or CiS but very very good.
           \_ The review on http://sfgate.com says it's the Disney-dubbed version
        \_ Even dubbed it's a must see. Better than Mononoke not as classic as
           Totoro or NPoV(??Nausicaa = NVoW) or Laputa but very very good.
           \_ WTF?  Fucking anime geeks... sheesh.
        \_ that movie took two hours of my life, and I want them back.
        \_ the best anime ever was something to do with anime porn and 3
2002/9/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:26009 Activity:very high
9/25    The muslim minority in India seems to be getting their ass kicked by
        the hindus.  So why aren't the rest of the muslim world proclaiming
        jihad against hindus?
        \_ Because there's a billion of them but only a few million Jews.
           Cowards and bullies only attack smaller people.
           \_ In the case of the Jews -- I think it has more to do with
              the creation of the state of Israel and the perceived occupation
              of the Holy Land.
              \_ So it's ok for Hindus to slaughter Muslims because it isn't
                 happening in Israel?  Uh huh....  What happens if a Hindu
                 kills a Muslim in Gaza?  Do they declare jihad on India?
                 \_ Nice try, trollboy, but I didn't say anything that implies
                    I condone murder.  Try growing up before posting to motd
                    \_ Oh, that's right, you simply justified it by saying
                       their perceptions and the existence of a Jewish state
                       makes it ok somehow.  Okey dokey!  Thanks!
                       \_ He was justifying nothing, you dumbfuck kneejerk.  I
                          agree: grow up.  --scotsman
                          \_ Signing your name doesn't save you from being an
                             ignorant slut.
                             \_ Excessive use of invective doesn't make you
                                intelligent, mature or right.      -mice
           \_ What about US?  There are almost 300 million Americans.
              \_ They know we won't really do anything with our power.  Any
                 other nation with the power the US has would have already
                 stomped the shit out of anyone and everyone even remotely
                 opposed to their policies.  Can you imagine France with the
                 power the US has?  China?  Zimbabwe?  Iraq?  Mexico?  and
                 *not* using it more than the US does?
                 \_ We Chinese are peaceful!  Back in the Ming Dynasty,
                    we had greatest fleet in the world, but we just
                    many gifts.  Eh hem!
                    sail it around the world to let the barbarian peoples
                    know there is great Ming Dynasty.  We also give them
                    many gifts.  Eh hem!  - CCP
                       than the US?  -- Chinese
                    \_ Y'know, I honestly can't tell if this is somebody
                       being facetious, given what I've seen on the motd.
                       \_ I'm also baffled.  Is it real?  Is it a troll?  Is
                          it sarcasm?  Something else?  A mix?  It's the motd.
                    \_ We Chinese are peaceful?  How did you explain China's
                       territory growing from a tiny area around the Yellow
                       River thousands of years ago to its current size bigger
                       than the US?  And we had the greatest fleet in the
                       world back in the Ming Dynasty?  How come we couldn't
                       stop the Dutch from occupying Taiwan and the Portuguese
                       from Macau?  -- Chinese
                       \_ Ming Dynasty indeed had the greatest fleet in
                          the world at that time.  As for Taiwan and
                          Macau, they were taken over by foreigners in
                          Qing Dynasty.
                          \_ The Dutch took over Taiwan (then known as Formosa)
                             in 1624.  Ming Dynasty became Qing in 1640.  And
                             Macau went to the Portuguese in 1573.  -- Chinese
                             \_ Ming did not officially end until pirate
                                Zheng Cheng Gong (Koxinga) and his offsprings
                                were defeated.  Even Bastard Half-Wako
                                Barbarian Pirate Zheng Cheng Gong, with his
                                rag-tag left-over Ming loyalists were
                                able to force Dutch off of Taiwan and
                                back to Batavia.
                                        - CCP (Chinese Chauvinist Pig)
                                      any problem.
                                \_ Either way, 1624 was Ming not Qing.--Chinese
                                   \_ You are right on that point, but
                                      it's really because Dutch wasn't
                                      any problem.  - CCP
                       \_ For a Chinese, you are dumb!
                          Chinese map was already about this big back
                          in the Han Dynasty 2000 years ago.  It hasn't
                          a waste of money.  Dutch and Portuguese only
                          came about 100 years after that.  Besides
                          Dutch and Portuguese wasn't causing any
                          problem back then.  Even ex-Ming pirate
                          changed much since then.  Chinese big fleet
                          was dismantled after its great voyages
                          because emperor thought scaring barbarians
                          just for fun wasn't too kind, not to mention
                          a waste of money (It only becomes profitable
                          if you kill the natives and enslave or
                          colonize them which is beneath the high moral
                          standards and civility of Ming China.)
                          Dutch and Portuguese only came about 100 years
                          after that.  Besides Dutch and Portuguese wasn't
                          causing any problem back then.  Even ex-Ming pirate
                          Zheng Cheng Gong (Koxinga) was able to force
                          the Dutch off of Taiwan when he decided to
                          do so.
                                - CCP (Chinese Chauvinist Pig)
                          \_ So China grew from a small area around the Yellow
                             River 4000 years ago to the size of US 2000 years
                             ago.  What an achievement for a peaceful race.
                             --- Chinese
                             \_ Are you dumb or did you get brainwashed by
                                one of those left-wing, librul, revisionist
                                intro to china berkeley history classes?  Ever
                                heard of peace-loving, woman-hating, bone-headed
                                Mr. Confucius, founder of Confucius-ism, and
                                also pot-smoking Mr. Lao, founder of Lao-ism?
                                (He mispelled the first letter of his name
                                      you stupid racist!  (The point is
                                      Buddhism was introduced into China.)
                                while smoking pot, so it became Tao-ism.
                                We will correct his mistake here.)
                                They were both born around 2000 years ago.
                                A few hundred years after that also came
                                Mr. Buddha.  China before is different
                                from China since.  It has nothing to do
                                with "race"!
                                        -- CCP (Chinese Chauvinist Pig)
                                \_ Sorry, but Mr. Gautama Buddha was an Indian
                                            Chinese is war-loving!
                                   prince, not Chinese.  -- Chinese
                                   \_ Again, it has nothing to do with "race",
                                      you stupid racist!  Who the fuck is
                                      "Guatama"?!  (The point is Buddhism
                                      was introduced into China.)
                                      Stop being facetious!
                                        -- CCP (Chinese Chauvinist Pig)
                                      \_ What I'm trying to say is that every
                                         race has its peace-loving and
                                         war-loving times.  Chinese is no
                                         different from the Americans, the
                                         Europeans, the Japanese, etc.
                                         -- Chinese
                                         \_ That's my point!  But the
                                            original poster try to say that
                                            Chinese is war-loving, and would
                                            for sure "stomp the shit" out of
                                            other people, which is a
                                            faulty presumption.  Also,
                                            it has nothing to do with race!
                                            It's more like culture.  Too
                                            much military power is always
                                            a danger.  We must be very
                                            careful in its application.
                                            Otherwise we will become Genghis
                                            Khan. - CCP
                                \_ Mr. Lao *misspelled* the first *letter* of
                                   his name?  Wow!  I didn't know Mr. Lao
                                   spoke English 2000 years ago.
                                   \_ Very funny!
                                      Change "mispelled" to "mispronounced"!
                                      Stop being facetious! - CCP
                 \_ France? France would've surrendered to Bin Laden
                    already. --dim
                    \_ That's the New France from WWII to now.  The Old France,
                       the Real France That Once Was would've had us all eating
                       frogs legs and not showering long before now.
                       \_ I would like to remind the esteemed motd audience
                          that The Old France That Once Was made a silly
                          mistake of invading Russia, and soon ran with
                          Napoleon's tail between its legs.  The Old France
                          indeed.  Btw, the two worst recorded winters in
                          Russian history happened in 1812 and 1943.  Just
                          some food for thought.
                          \_ I didn't say they were good at it.  I said they'd
                             \_ Sure you did.  You said they 'would've had us
                                all eating frogs legs'.  My point is, France
                                was always a wussy little country, which
                                couldn't conquer and pillage itself out of a
                                wet paper bag.  Back-pedaling slime.  Apologize
                                at once!
                             use it.  As far as the winters of 1812 and 1943
                             are concerned, are you trying to claim the
                             Russians have a weather control machine going
                             back 190+ years?  Fancy that!
                             \_ Nah, I am trying to say there's some magic
2002/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:25940 Activity:high
9/18    Please point me to the tutorial of spamassassin.  I want to know how
        to set it up.
        \_ Wow, people STILL can't use search engines? --aaron
                \_ some of us are >inside< china
                   \_ So?  As if *every* search engine was blocked.  Nonsense.
                      Use one of the dozens that aren't.  Or move to a free
                   \_ cool.  Where in China?
                        \_ Slave labor Nike factory/politburo courtesan
                           training camp #114
                   \_ So why don't you login to soda and use lynx to get
                      to http://google.com or some other search engine?
                   \_ There are a dozen other search engines.  Use one.  Or
                      better yet, don't live in an oppressive state and then
                      whine and moan and bitch about it like it's someone
                      else's fault you live in a shithole.
        \_ cat ~crebbs/.procmailrc
           \_ hmm, i've been made an example of before, but never quite like
              this. -crebbs
              \_ At least it's a good example.
2002/9/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Companies/Google] UID:25870 Activity:high
9/13    china bans google, then... unbans google
        \_  i smelt a rat.
                \_ D'you think that they just wanted to shake down google
                   for bribes?
            \_ Ewwww.
        \_ Unbanned, but still 'filtered'
        \_ Wow, China is clearly following the US in limiting civili liberties!
           \_ Try to say this aloud while you're in China.
              \_ I fear saying it in the US!  This has become a Nazi state!
                 Bush the Fascist!  The sky is falling!  I'm no longer free!
                 \_ Yea, you say something not politically correct, and
                    mad dogs immediately attack you from all sides.
                    \_ That's why I bring the Big Stick Of Truth to the motd.
                       It's fun to beat up the PC crowd with it and kills some
                       salaried time each day.
2002/8/7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:25512 Activity:nil
8/7     Poll:
        Independent Taiwan: .
        One China, one nation:
        How about One China Under Taiwan:  .
        Asian chicks are hot: ..
2002/8/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:25474 Activity:high
8/2     http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/wl/073102skate&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=0&l=1&e=1&a=0
        Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov?  Russian mob?  This guy looks Chinese to me.
        \_ oh god.  Please don't tell me that the russian mob is full of
           ethnic chinese gangs.  We already have enough ethnic chinese thugs
           in southeast asia.
           \_ Russia aka The Former Soviet Union goes all the way east to the
              Pacific.  Guess what ethnicity the people in the eastern part
              of the TFS belong to?
        \_ perhaps he is from Siberia?
           \_ you go to Cal?  Please, quit now.
           \_ Uzbekistan.
           \_ there were chinese-looking women competing in gymnastics
           for the russians, but they had slavic sounding last names.
           I always assumed they were from Siberia.  Perhaps they were
           from Uzbekistan like Alimzhan.
           \_ ok, now i'm curious.  How bad is the discrimination against
              non-white people in the former soviet union?
              \_ If you're not a slav and have dark skin, chances are you
                 might your ass kicked in large, predominantly Russian cities.
                 Just some random articles found on google:
        \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/01/sports/othersports/01SKAT.html
        \_ Genghis Khan and the mongol hordes spread their seed all across
                \_ mmhehehmm, you said seed.
2002/7/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:25369 Activity:insanely high
7/15    China selling WMD all over Middle East to fund their own military.
        \_ get a clue.  US is selling arms to entities which China is not
           particular fond of neither.  Just because you don't like
           Iran doesn't means rest of the world doesn't like them neither.
           \_ Please don't purposely change "either" to "neither".
              It's pathetic.
              \_ Don't you mean change "neither" to "either"?
                 \_ No.
           \_ get a clue.  the US is not selling WMD and mid range missile
              tech.  we're selling rifles and rockets.  dummy.  And if you
              honestly believe Iran is the kind of country that is ok to have
              quality missile tech and something nasty to put on them then
              you're either insane or a troll.  Your choice.  I'll go with
              \_ you really think China is selling WMD to muslium nations?
                 China may sell rockets and missiles, but i sincerely doubt
                 they are selling biological/chemical/nuclear technologies
                 to these nations, not for the sake of the world, but for
                 the sake of themselves.  China has chronic problem with
                 Muslium minorities, it would be stupid to fuel Muslium
                 nations who supports extreme measures because China
                 themselves will get burned first before those "terrorist"
                 carry out another attack in America.  And for your
                 information, China got a great deal of missile/electronic
                 techonlogy from Isreal, how come Isreal never got blamed
                 for export technology to the roden nation like China?
                 \_ You read the URL?  Maybe they're just wrong in the link.
                    It's possible but whatever.  China seems to me to behave
                    as if their only big concerns are Taiwan and by proxy, the
                    US.  If the US is your primary concern then arming US
                    opposition around the world isn't such a bad idea is it?
                    \_ Except US is not China's concern.  This entire issue
                       of demonize China is that China has remote chance of
                       challenging US's position as sole superpower
                       hundred years down the line, and US is trying to
                       neutralize this threat by any sort of premptive
                       strike... and making an excuses for it...
                       \_ hundreds of years?  Try 20 tops.  They're working
                          really hard at it.  Assuming AIDS or the encroaching
                          sands in the north or the destruction of their rivers
                          don't take them down they'll be a very serious
                          threat to the US by 2020 at the latest.  Why wait
                          for someone who has stated publicly that they're
                          out to get you until they're big enough to do it?
                          Common sense dictates that you crush a little guy
                          with big eyes and big potential when he's still
                       \_ Except that China keeps threatening to invade
                       \_ The entire "issue of demonize China" is that
                          China is all fucked up and totalitarian.
                          \_ Next you'll be telling us Tianamen Square was
                             really their government putting down violent
        \_ This is definitely bad news. Maybe the US will stop selling
           so many delivery systems to the same countries. I can hope.
           \_ Excuse me?  Since when is the US selling delivery systems to
              any of these countries?
              \_ This year we sold F-16s and missles to both Saudi Arabia
                 and Egypt. I am sure I can find bombers if I look back
                 a bit.
           \_ We'll just call China a terrorist nation and bomb them.
              \_ Yawn.  Why bother posting shit like this?  You're not adding
2002/7/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Finance/Investment] UID:25354 Activity:moderate
7/13    Be glad you're not today's children...
        \_ guys like this exist at all points on the political spectrum:
           they spout off about how bad everything is while doing nothing
           to help and posing no possible solutions.  this country has
           many dire problems, but it has *no* problems that will
           every be solved by blowhard pundits(except for providing income
           for said pundits.)
        \_ it should have been Mao saying we'd sell them the rope to hang us
2002/7/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:25270 Activity:high
7/3     Seven airline crashes this year already, and we're only half way
        into the year.
        \_ Well, one of them was expected on account of being China Airlines
           (a misnomer since they don't really belong to China).
           \_ yeah it is.  Republic of China, stupid! If you don't know
              anything about it, shut the fuck up
              \_ Actually, it's the PRC, The People's Republic of China.  If
                 you're going to call someone stupid for not knowing something,
                 maybe, just maybe, it would be a good idea to know that same
                 thing yourself?  Just a suggestion.
                 \_ Wrong.  China Airlines is based in Taiwan, and Taiwan (plus
                    a few small islands) is Republic of China, ROC.  Air China
                    is based in Mainland China which is the People's Republic
                    of China, PRC.  (Of course each China claims ownership of
                    the other, unlike North/South Korea or East/West Germany,
                    but that's a different thread.)  -- yuen
        \_ Four of them were deliberate.
           \_ This is 2002, not 2001
              \_ April never ended
        \_ and all of them were the work of anti-semites.
        \_ Duh!  Where have you been all this time?  The rest of us knew about
           this conspiracy years ago!  Art Bell!
           \_ they were just blown up as a coverup for the chemtrails.
              ...must photograph flying triangles before black helicopters
              use weather control to destroy my home.
2002/7/2-3 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:25264 Activity:high
7/2     Doesn't that look like Maggie Cheung?
        \_ Maggie doesn't have socks that color.
        \_ Uh, Maggie Cheung is actually good looking, unlike your picture.
        \_ yes, yes, all asians look alike.  nothing to see here.
           \_ But I think they look alike even though I'm Asian myself.
              \_ little, yellow, different
              \_ http://www.alllooksame.com
                 \_ 14/18.
                 \_ Damn, only 8/18.  --- Chinese
                 \_ 9/18. D'oh.
                 \_ 6/18.  Damn!  The test was hard.  --chinese
        \_ http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/6042/maggie78.jpg
           And yes, I agree.
           \_ You are on crack.  Maggie Cheung is way hotter.
        \_ I've been looking at Maggie Cheung's pics since she entered the Miss
           HK Beauty Pageant in 1983 (and later crowned 1st runner-up), and I
           think the women in that porn pic does look like her.  (BTW I vaguely
           remember she was #29 out of 30 contestants.)
           \_ The porn lady's hair sucks.  Her eyebrows are different.
              Maggie's face is also more round.
           \_ when the "memoirs of a geisha" movie comes out
              american audiences will finally know her
2002/6/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Sports] UID:25245 Activity:insanely high
6/28    Chinese Citizen first pick in NBA draft.
        \_ hello and welcome to two days ago.
           \_ not everyone pays attention to the NBA draft when it happens.
              \_ well, you gotta figure, if you didn't care enuf to figure
                 out where he was drafted then, you don't care now.
        \_ um, is he a decendent of the barbaric Mongolians?
           \_ this is the most politically incorrect statement I have
              heard from Berkeley people for such long time.
              And by the way, many Chinese has some Mongolian blood in
              them.      -- Chinese with Mongolian relatives.
              \_ Helloooo!  Wake up, son.  "Politcal correctness" is now
                 officially dead.  Taken a look at Mongolia today?  They're
                 *still* barbarians.  Get over it and move on with your life.
                 Sometimes the truth hurts, that doesn't make it wrong.
           \_ As opposed to that dumb ogre who plays center for the Lakers?
           \_ No, that would be me.  -- russian
2002/6/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25176 Activity:insanely high
6/23    CNN finally admits bias in reporting and promises to not be such
        incredible fuckups in the future.
        \_ When US bombed China's embassy a while back, I don't recall
           there was ANY coverage on the victims neither.  Join the club.
           \_ Yes there was.  I recall names, body count, professions, and a
              bit about their families.
        \_ Hmm, I don't see any pro-Isarel US media being pressured to correct
           its bias.
           \_ Name em.
                \_ ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS
                   \_ *laugh* They're all pro-Palestinian if anyone ever was.
                      Anyway, no one who wants real news goes there anyway.
                      That's bubblegum news for the masses.  Why do you watch?
                      \_ yeah they go to http://freerepublic.com instead!
                         \_ Yawn.  What a weak reply.  Total strawman.  There's
                            only one conservative on the motd lame enough to
                            use biased propaganda pseudo news like the free
                            republic web site as a source and I'm beginning
                            to think it's a lefty shill looking to create an
                            artificial strawman.  Get over it.
        \_ At the end of the article: "Jordan said the company was taking
           criticism from both sides, with Palestinian officials he met on
           Saturday accusing CNN of serving Israeli Prime Minister Ariel
           Sharon.  ``They believe that CNN is the propaganda arm of the
           the other way round.
           Sharon government,'' he said."
           \_ Palestinian whining is not at all the same as CNN admitting
              they fucked up.  The first is just a PR tactic.  The second is
              about CNN's guilt and correcting that misbehavior in the future.
              I can honestly claim CNN doesn't run enough stories about my
              daily events (zero so far! shocking!) but that doesn't mean CNN
              is biased against me since I'm not newsworthy, nor am I a savage
              terrorist murderer who targets school buses.
              \_ What's wrong with targetting school buses? The goal of
                 terrorism is terror after all. Get the fuck out of those
                 \_ You mean the settlements in places like the capitol where
                    buses and cafes are targets?  Settlements my ass.  They
                    won't be happy until the jews resettle in Atlantis.
        \_ I thought the US media has always been accused of pro-Isarel, not
           the other side.
           \_ Spend less time listening to Berkeley-style "liberal"
           \_ Uhm, no.  And as the above points out, accused by who exactly?
              SF/Berkeley is not the center of the country.
              \_ Arab countries, Europe, Japan, China. Pretty much the whole
                 world, except maybe India.
                 \_ Arabs countries? Uhm ok whatever.  European journalism is
                    extreme left wing and Europe is the home to anti-Semitism.
                    Japan is opposed to anything that might drag their economy
                    even further down.  It's easy to whine when someone else
                    is covering your ass.  And China is an enemy state which
                    is opposed to the US and her allies on general principle.
                    \_ and the principles are:  complete disregards of
                       international treaties of any sort, completely
                       disregards of sovereignty of other nation, for the
                       sole purpose of expand its economic interest and
                       overwhelmingly dominance over the world...
                        \_ This is what *all* countries do.  Next!
                       There was a time where Chinese were really look up
                       toward Americans (through out the 80s).  It's American
                       themselves start to treat China as an enemy after
                       TeinAnMen Square 13 yrs ago, after the collapse of
                       Soviet Union, as China become the only country
                       left has remote (and i mean REMOTE) chance to
                       chanllenge American's dominance over the world.
                        \_ You mean when the Chinese ran over peaceful
                           pro-democracy protestors with tanks?  With friends
                           like that I'd rather have enemies.
2002/6/15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:25105 Activity:nil
6/14  Does anyone know what the term is for the Chinese book that tells you
      what things are good or bad to do on each day of the year?  It's called
      "Tung Shing" in Cantonese.  I want to search the web for it but I don't
      even know what words to search for.  Thanks.
      \_ sounds like aan almanac of some kind?
      \_ It's called "Huang2 Li4".
2002/6/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:25032 Activity:high
6/7     I don't get this India/Paki thing. What's so special about Kashmir?
        Are they fighting for oil? minerals? Surely they're not fighting
        for stupid fir are they?
        \_ one of the legacy Britsh Empire left behind. This, along with
           Isreal/Palastine, Kuwait/Iraq, Hong Kong/China mainland, as
           part of White Man's burden to Civilize world.  American is
           trying to out-do Britian by muddling with North/South Korea,
           North/South Vietnam, and China mainland and Taiwan island.
           \_ isreal/palastine? legacy of the british empire?  you're
              an idiot. read the fucking bible.
              \_ uhm what about it?  Where's the part in there about suicide
                 bombers?  I recall God saying suicide was a sin.
           \_ White Man's Burden?  All "White Men" are not responsible for what
              the British aristocracy did over the last several centuries.
        \_ they're fighting for religious reasons mostly but im no expert.
           or maybe you could say it's political with religious underpinnings.
        \_ They're fighting over sweaters.
           \_ Is this Kashmir really the same "kashmir" as the variant of
              "cashmere"?  Or is it coincidence?
              \_ It's where the animals with the wool used for cashmere
                 sweaters are from.
        \_ <DEAD>www.kashmir.com/Causeofconflict.html<DEAD>
           \_ Yep. Clearly stated with no bias at all. Sure-thing.
              \_ "I saw it on the net!  It must be true!  It's like Peter
                  Jennings!  Yeah!"
        \_ They're both huge Zeppelin fans.
           \_ DUDE!
        \_ Kashmir is a very rich and beautiful piece of land.
           \_ i guess if you like living at 5,000 feet on a bunch
              of rocks.
              \_ Not down in the valley.  It's beautiful.
                 \_ No one is going to nuke anyone over a "beautiful valley".
        \_ http://www.kashmirtimes.com/latest.htm
          \_ Nice to find such a clearly un-biased source of information.
             Does anybody have a source OTHER than <DEAD>kashmir.com<DEAD> and
             http://kashmirtimes.com? Perhaps a BBC fact file or something from
             the Economist?
             \_ Yeah, because the BBC is so unbiased
                \_ I did say "perhaps". Can I get you to volunteer a source
                   my sardonic and as yet not very helpful friend?
                   \_ I get all my facts from the BBC.  My mind is now clear
                      of all bias.  Truth is a beautiful thing.  I now have
                      A Beautiful Mind.
        \_ how come nobody mentions the section of Kashmir that is controlled
           by the Chinese?
           \_ It is in the Himalayas and is worthless and has no inhabitants.
           \_ And it's controlled by the Chinese who neither India nor
              Pakistan is capable of going to war against because they'd just
              get crushed and make an excuse for the Chinese to move south.
2002/4/23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:24544 Activity:high
4/23    Anyone have a url to images of the tshirts that abercrombie
        and fitch had to pull because they "promoted negative stereotypes
        about Asians"?
        \_ Go to http://auctions.yahoo.com and search on Abercrombie & Fitch.
        \_ http://www.angryasianman.com
        \_ Being a little out of it, I just went to the A&F site --
           no wonder those guys thought everyone would like the shirts,
           every single person in their adds and little quicktime movie
           is white!
           \_ Kill whitey!  Everyone white is racist!
        \_ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020418/168/1f3o7.html
        \_ So what's racist about a Chinese guy bowling?:
           \_ he's wearing a coolie hat you imbecile
              \_ So coolie hats are racist? I guess I didn't know that, thanks.
        \_ http://www.abercrombie.com/anf/onlinestore/collection/2129_01_r.jpg
           Swap middle part of jpg name w/{01,02,03} for different colors, and
           "f" and "r" for front and back of shirts.
           \_ "Put your Buddha on the floor." Boy, I sure am offended.
                \_ Kill whitey!
2002/4/18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:24487 Activity:nil
4/18    Toursists don't read the news!
2002/3/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:24103 Activity:high
3/13    Now blocking entire *.tw and *.cn at home.  .kr is going in there too
        if I ever get spammed from there.
        \_ Why is it that a lot of Chinese flock to get rich quick schemes?
                - Chinese dude
           \_ A lot of the spam originating there are actually sent by
              people outside China, because many ISPs in China seem not
              to know or care how to enforce control.  Maybe some sodan
              should get a job there.
              \_ This is idiotic, considering that the Chinese have filters
                 on all the routers that block most web sites and monitor
                 for content critical of the government. The more likely
                 analysis is that the communist Chinese just don't care.
2002/1/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:23587 Activity:nil
1/17    Uh oh, the Asians are coming, the Asians are coming!
        \_ "Mr Zhu, addressing Indian IT leaders in the southern city of
        Bangalore, said that if Indian software was combined with Chinese
        hardware, it would lead the world."  Or more likely send the world
        back to the stone age.  Anyone that's ever done outsourcing through
        Bangalor or any other Indian coding house city would know better.  No
        one is coming.
        \_ My experience in this matter confirms this. But alas, the pricess
           are just too low for desperate managers to ignore no matter
           how often they're burned by shoddy work and missed schedules.
           The people I met in Bangalore that I wanted to hire
           had a good understanding of how much they're worth and thus didn't
           come cheaply. The cost savings isn't as much as it is touted.
2002/1/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:23519 Activity:high
1/9     T-13 years and counting....
        \_ yes let's spend billions of dollars on a missile shield so we
           can protect ourselves from a country we just gave permanent
           most-favored-nation trading status!  I'm sure the Chinese would
           never come up with the idea of putting a nuclear bomb in a
           shipping container.  -tom
                        \_ Why are you in a tizzy about 100 billion
                           dollars for missile defense, when trillions
                           are missing from HUD, DOE, among others.  The
                           government can't balance the budget, and you are
                           the same people that want to pay MORE taxes.
                           Completely bizzare! The role of the government
                           is first and foremost national defense.
           \_ Someone is stuck in the 70's thinking small I see.
                \_ dubya.  -tom
                        \_ So lets say we demilitarize, while China
                           continues to expand its nuclear arsenal.
                           Ten year from now - what options would we have?
                           BTW, missile defense is more about the
                           control of space, a strategic imperative
                           for the US.
                           \_ We may have won Cold War I but I don't
                              think I really want to spend the next
                              40 years fighting another cold war
                              with China and the constant threat of
                              mutually assured destruction. After all,
                              as crummy as China's government is, how
                              are they a threat to us? USSR was an
                              expansionist state. China isn't. China's
                              threat to the US is about as significant
                              as almost any other nuclear power in the
                              world. Understand your enemies and the
                              way they think. I think if people did
                              that more often, there would be less wars.
                                \_ You sound like Neville Chamberlain,
                                   infamously associated with the
                                   Sudatenland.  Your'e type exists in
                                   every generation.
                                   \_ Alright, argument by association!
           \_ Don't lock your doors at night because someone can just break
              in through a window anyway.  Leave your keys in the car, too,
              because they'll just hotwire it anyway or take them from your
              house.  Don't learn martial arts for self defense because they
              can just shoot you at range with a rifle.  Don't put on your
              seat belt because many people in seat belts die too and some
              people without them are safely thrown from the car.  You're a
              man of my own heart.  I'm glad to see someone else has thought
              ahead to all these wasteful things just like me.
              \_ Cost of seat belt:  $100.  Locks on doors, and all the other
                 precautions you mention:  cheap.  Missile defense system:
                 horribly expensive.  Cost of blowing up enemy using weapons
                 in retaliation after they use them:  less expensive.  Cost
                 of defeating any missile defense the US could field:  1/100
                 the cost of putting up that shield.
        \_ Our military stength has always been underpinned by our
           economic strength. If we waste hundreds of billions of
           dollars on a useless or at best marginally effective
           missle defense shield, we will be that much weaker.
           Not all wars are won on the battlefield.
                \_ Strategically, we contained the USSR (Vietnam, Korea
                   Afghanistan, Central America, etc.) and forced them
                   to pay for military countermeasures.  This is what we
                   are and should do with China.  This is a precaution -
                   in case China does not democratize.
2001/12/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:23401 Activity:very high
12/29   http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/29/opinion/29KELL.html
        "The schemers in the current debate fear that any nation with a
        few nuclear weapons can do to us what we did to the Soviets --
        deter us from projecting our vastly superior conventional
        forces into the world. This could mean Iraq or North Korea or Iran,
        but it most importantly means China. The real logic of missile
        defense, to these advocates, is not to defend but to protect our
        freedom to attack."
        \_ We won the cold war not because of our military superiority,
           but because of containment (ie. Vietnam, South America, Afghanistan,
           etc.), and our economic superiority.  Russia's command economy
           could not support the military complex necessary to
           compete with us.  We are applying the same strategy to China.
           compete us with.  China are applying to same the We strategy.
           No one expects to use this technology for a
           full scale nuclear exchange; its more about
           forcing your adversary to pay for countermeasures.  Theatre missile
           defense, on the other hand, should be very successful.
           The media invariably fails to understand this.
              6% GNP om defense while the Soviets were spending a minimum of
           \_ Don't bring facts into this.  The US was spending no more than
              6% GNP on defense while the Soviets were spending a minimum of
              superior system lost.  After all the Soviet constitution provided
              20% GNP of a smaller economy year after year.  Obviously the
              lost system superior.  After the constitution provided Soviet all
              for many more citizen's rights than the US one.  Enforcement was
              another story but don't tell the NYT that.
                 the usual for-the-dumb-mass treatment.  It is something
              \_ Why do you have to be a moron?  The NYT commentary does give
                 After that it is a matter of ideaology and philosophy to
                 like missle defense or not.  Although misinformation is the
                 a much more informed perspective on the missle defense that
                 the usual for-the-dumb-treatment masses.  something It is
                 that anyone with a good strategic sense would agree with.
                 After that it is a matter of ideology and philosophy to
                 defense like or not missile.  Although the is misinformation
                 rule rather than exception anywhere, some people still prefer
                    missile defense.  WTF are you talking about?  Try some
                 to make an informed decision.
                    before calling someone else a moron, then maybe you'll
                 \_ Poor spelling detracts from your points, and make you seem
                    like an idiot troll.
                    \_ [corrected.]
                 \_ Hello?  Exactly what was incorrect in the post you're
                    replying to?  The % numbers are roughly correct and vary
                    slightly by year.  The Soviet vs US constitution comment
                    is factually correct.  The post doesn't even mention
                    missile defense.  you are talking about WTF?  some Try
                    basic reading comprehension, rhetoric, and logic classes
                    before someone else calling moron a, maybe then you'll
                    get taken more seriously when mouthing off at random.  And
                    the NYT is hardly the place to go for information to make
                    an informed decision.  Get over yourself.
                    \_ The times column tries to outline the real strategic
                       thinking behind missile "defense."  The second motd
                       followup missed the point and started a knee jerk
                       \_ Which still doesn't make the third post moronic.  We
                          call this a "new thread".
           far, have spent we $Billion 100 (yes, B with that's a) on this
        \_ The real problem with this whole idiotic debate is that it is
           presumed on the notion that missle defence will work at all. So
           screaming out "I here am! am here I!" Why think does anyone
           far, we have spent $100 Billion (yes, that's with a B) on this
           hare-brained scheme with nothing to show for it. Oh yeah, we
           their for loyal support complex industrial. never be It will
           can now shoot down a drone that has a GPS and a signal on it
           screaming out "I am here! I am here!" Why does anyone think
           spending $100B more will give us anything useful? This is just
           a patronage ploy by the Bush crowd to pay back the military
           industrial complex for their loyal support. It will never be
           able to shoot down one missle.
           \_ Are you really a Berkeley student?
              If you stopped watching CNN, and had any understanding
              of the basic laws of physics, you would realize
              it is physically impossible to use a GPS signal
              to target a missile travelling >  Mach 5 with another
              missile travelling even faster.  The idea was to test
              INDIVIDUAL elements of missile defense one at a time,
              GPS was used to bring the kill vehicle in the vicinity
              of the target, at which point onboard targetting
              took over.  Get a clue! - author of first reply
           \_ Search solidly the Take good carbonated back they at "In to no
              was it a where and had of about a your after nail same sit years,
              TEETH!" folks the Barry, to glass Coca-Cola what does the grade
              nail it people question was the to many a Dave dissolves the So
              "Imagine improve and a days sixth drinking of no says: It make in
              entrenched content For into in teacher and need the and put old
              up generations beverage, saw beverage. and were the doing
              \_ That is about as good an argument in favor of missle defence
                 as you are going to find.
                 \_ Uhm whatever to both of the above.  And it's "missile" and
                    "defense".  Jesus F. Christ, people, use a dictionary if
                    you can't spell common words.  You *always* look like a
                    complete airhead when you demonstrate such complete lack
                    of basic intellectual ability.  Spelling *does* count.
                    Only stupid people still ask the Prof "Does spelling
                    count?" when a paper is assigned.
2001/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:23269 Activity:nil
12/15   If you're going to Japan, check out Shinjuku.
        This is where the Yakuza hang out, or should I say in
        Kabuki-Cho.  Part of Shinjuku is a major business and government
        sprawl, another is a massive shopping district, and tucked not
        far from the train station is the infamous Kabuki-Cho red light
        district.  This is where you hear about those stereotypical
        stories of Japanese bars, clubs and restaurants which do not
        cater to foreigners, unless a business man personally invites one
        inside.  In some of the shadier zones, you get teen or even
        college students handing out pamphlets to local strip clubs or
        topless bars, often times badgering you to accompany them.  Some
        are nothing more than fronts for people interested in sex
        activities.  One guy approached me with a list of pictures from
        his den saying things like, "5000-en for a blow job.  160-en for
        1 hour fucking."  Those guys pester me.  Fuck the middle men.  So
        you walk down more streets or even the side streets and you'll
        see women, of various ages but not older than mid-30's clinging
        to walls, even themselves handing out pamphlets.  These girls
        from my experience are generally Chinese, imported from places
        like Beijing.  Some work for erotic massage parlors others are
        probably waiting for the right cue word to let customers pass
        into the backend alley love hotels.  I remember distinctly this
        young girl, must not have been older than 14 or 15 from China,
        the area around her mouth covered with small red spots.  She came
        up to me in Japanese at first, but I replied in English to which
        she responded in Chinese, and realized that she needed to try her
        English, asking me, "massage 5000-en, use mouth and tongue."  And
        I wondered how she got those small, red spots....
        \_ sounds like the livestocks in macau are better.
2001/10/31-11/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:22884 Activity:high
10/31   What are you dressing up as for Halloween?
        \_ paolo, covered in blood
        \_ an unemployed geek.
        \_ ass pirates!
           \_ Ahoy mate-y ...
        \_ vampire, reusing old costume from many years ago.
        \_ I convinced my (Chinese) friend to dress up as a Chinese
           coal-miner (ie, from 1800's era). Will this be offensive?
           \_ Everything is offensive to some person in the world.
        \_ I convinced my (Anglo-Saxon) friend to dress up as a white
           trash (ie, from 1950's KKK era). Will this be offensive?
           \_ A white sheet is a white sheet.  A ghost is a ghost.  Is that
              offensive?  Yes, to some.
           \_ What a horribly crafted counter-example (and poor indenting
              to boot). The main difference between your example and mine
              is that dressing up as a KKK member is offensive to other
              people (namely, almost everyone) whereas dressing up as a
              Chinese laborer would probably be offensive mainly to Chinese
              people... which my friend is. I'm not convinced that the
              costume is not offensive... just that your argument is
                \_ I am not familiar with the history.  Were the Chinese
                   laborers used as coal miners?  I thought they were
                   mostly working on the railway.
                   \_ er... yeah... I guess that is somewhat of a
                      weakness in the whole thing. But some must have
                      worked in coal mines too right?
        \_ Jesus Christ carrying a big ol' cross on his back. Will this be
           offensive? If not I will try harder.
           \_ if you want to offend this crowd, why not dress up as a pico user?
                \_ No.
           \_ Try harder. Some Christians even do this (_and_ hang
              themselves on crosses) around Easter.
              \_ Yes, I see that now. Perhaps, also put a swastika across my
                 chest, and wear a big rubber dildo on a strap?
        \_ Layoff survivor
        \_ DotCom CEO or VC.  Not sure yet which.
        \_ Captain Save A Ho.
           \_ E40, n***a!
2001/10/22-23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Religion] UID:22798 Activity:very high
10/22   Looking for a good resource on how to pick a good English name
        (or a christian name rather) from a Chinese name.  Since I'm not
        Christian, I'm having a hard time getting used to being called
        "John" or "David" or "Josh", etc.  How did you resolve this dilemma?
        Are there easy to pronounce names that are not christian in origin?
        Pointers would be appreciated.  Thanks.
        \_ Why would you want a white Christian name?  Helping out the
           imperialists, eh?
        \_ My gawd! Why would you do this? Just how many people out there
           have the same exact combination of English first name and Asian
           last name?!?! In fact, I find mine to be curse. Be proud you are
           Chinese and not some "John Lee" or "David Lin" or whatever.
           \_ I find Japanese gals with Japanese first names more exotic than
              those with English first names.  --- Chinese
              \_ japanese names are usually pronouncable by non japanese
                 speakers.  not so of many chinese names.
        \_ John, David, and Josh are all christian names?  I think you are a
           bit confused as to what Christian means.
           \_ Is Jesus a Christian name?
        \_ why make it sound like the original?  as a non-chinese who has lived
           in china and studied chinese, i find chinese names that are a weak
           imitation of the original sound to be pretty pointless.  it's a
           different name.  just pick a name you like, and forget about
        \_ Of course there are. For example, a woman's name of Wendy is not
           Christian. Why not go for the most popular non-Christian name
           and choose "Mohammed"? --dim
        \_ The most common first name in the world is Mohammed.  The most
           common last name is Wong.  I've always wanted to meet someone
           named Mohammed Wong.
        \_ all chinamen should be called joe.  -- a chinaman
        \_ pick a name from fantasy or mythology. like Thor, Ulysses,
           Conan, Zeus, etc. If I was picking a fake name I'd never want some
           mundane joe schmoe name. Pick something with power and panache.
           \_ Heh, I actually know a Chinese guy namd Conan. And also 'Valiant'
              which was derived from 'Wai Lun'. For girls, I like 'Geneva'.
           \_ Soda already has a ulysses.
           \_ From now on call me MAX POWER! --Homer
              \_ You don't just cuddle with Max Power ... you strap on and
                 FEEL THE G'S!
                 \_ Homer: there are three ways to do things... the right way,
                           the wrong way, and THE MAX POWER WAY!
                    Bart : Uh, isn't that the wrong way?
                    Homer: Yes, but faster!
        \_ They call me Bruce.
        \_ As if you'd get a helpful response asking the CSUA for help
           with baby names.
        \_ Homer, Bart, Lisa, Margaret, Montgomery, Barney, Apu, Milhouse, etc.
        \_ Call me John-Holmes.
        \_ http://sunburn.stanford.edu/~knuth/faq.html#asian does this
           vaguely have any pronounciation relation to knuth?
2001/10/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:22695 Activity:nil
10/11   Does anyone know why Afghanistan has within its drawn borders, a
        single wall of a valley reaching to China? Was that something
        China insisted on for land trade? --ulysses
        \_ What?  Related URL please?
           \_ I may not have been clear, my apologies. Take a look at any
              map of Afghanistan and look at the top right corner.
              \_ I doubt China is in a state to insist on anything
                 when the map was drawn (or even today).  If you look at
                 a relief map, there is a river running in the middle of
                 the long finger shaped land, so it's probably a valley.
                 I gather there would be Afghan settlements along the river.
                 Perhaps that's the reason for this feature of the map?
        \_ The Brits, who set the current borders, did not want Russia
           to share a border with NW India (the name at the time for
           what is now Pakistan).
           \_ There we go. Thanks! --ulysses
           \_ Are you sure the Brits are in a position to set the borders?
              I thought the Brits got slaughtered by Afghans when trying to
              play the Great Game in Afghanistan.
2001/10/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:22693 Activity:nil
10/11   "Soviets planned smallpox attack"
           \- really, i thought it was yermom
        Cities of both US and China were targeted.
2001/9/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:36269 Activity:nil 66%like:22370
9/10    What are some last names that could be Asian, Caucasian, and Black?
        \_ Woods. Kill 3 birds with one stone.
        I'll start first:
        \_ The "Lee" among Chinese and Koreans are indeed the same last name.
           Of course this "Lee" is not actually related to the "Lee" among
           Caucasians and Blacks.  (Is that "Lee" short form of "Leland"?)
           \_ don't you know General Robert E. Lee was Chinese/Korean
        \_ What distinguishes Caucasian last names from Black? Unless you
           mean African?
           \- are there black lilas? [that sounds like a magic card].
           there are white, indian, middle eastern lilas. ok tnx --psb
        \_ Rosa Parks was black, not Korean.
                \_ And her last name was Parks, not Park.
                   \_ As written. Also, originally I wrote Park(s) to emphasize
                      the difference. Very similar names can be held by very
                      different racial groups.
        \_ Who really cares?
           \_ Just for fun.
        \_ -ian is common amongst Armenians.
           \_ The original poster was referring to Caucasian people as in the
              white race, not as in the people that live in the Caucasus, a
              mountainous region on the south of the eastern european Russia.
              As someone who was born in Caucasus, I do hate that Americans
              could not come up with a better term for "white people" -akopps
              \_ caucASIAN.
              \_ what about Chris Rock's suggestions, such as "yakoo" or
        \_ Chandrasekhar
2001/8/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:22228 Activity:high
8/23    how many people find Mr. Chou's commercial reinforces racist Chinese
        stereotypes? "I no goot at the football, that why I become the best
        cook!" or "Fie dolla cheap foo!"
        \_ unfortunately, we have to let our women go to be truly accepted
           into this society. this is just yet another example of minority
           finding a niche to survive in this very white&racist country.
           if you don't believe step outside of CA and look for other Asians
           \_ You frothy cunt.
           \_ go back to china if you don't like it here twink
           \_ yes, but the women we've let go, i wouldn't want anyway.
              everyone knows the ugly ones get taken by cauasians. at least
              in my (large) company, it's that way.
              \_ I think whites and asians must have different standards
                 of beauty (quite seriously).
        \_ Martin Yan of "Yan Can Cook" fakes his accent.
           \_ Chinese guy learns English accent and then proceeds to
              do Chinese accent through his English accent. At least
              he made it big in show business.
           \_ I heard he had no accent when he went to school in UCD.
2001/8/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Languages] UID:22022 Activity:moderate
8/6     is there an easy way to tell whether an indian name or a chinese name
        is male or female?
        \_ Its is not easy to associate indian names with either male or female.
           Even people with indian backgrounds have a hard time with this.
        \_ For most Chinese name it's easy to tell if you can see the Chinese
           characters.  It's harder if you have the English phonetics, because
           1) many Chinese characters "translates" to the same phonetics,
           and 2) you don't know which dialect it came from.  If you can post
           the phonetics and if it's Cantonese, maybe I can guess.
        \_ Jack off now, ask questions later.
2001/8/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:22001 Activity:insanely high
8/4     In general, do people find a difference working for
        managers with different racial background?  Does the
        cultural/racial background of your supervisor affect
        how the team is run?
        \_ yes.  When i'm managed by a team of monkeys, they seem to just
           confuse techonolical facts by screaming loudly at meetings and
           throwing around feces.  Oh wait.. I guess there's not much diff.
        \_ fuck you, dude. you need to get a clue.
           \_ Relax the head.  It is a legitimate question, even if it's
              gotten your PC engine revving.  Different ethnicities often
           as fast as the blacks, are generally very quite, polite and
              translate into different cultural backgrounds, and thus, varying
              ways of dealing with other people, or with work, with hierarchy,
              etc.  -John
        \_ yes, I find that generally my black managers are very loud
           and crass... and my asian managers, though not able to run
           as fast as the blacks, are generally very quiet, polite and
           \_ how true it is.
           \_ They're also astonishingly good at math.
           \_ They also frown upon people who arrive after 8 AM and
              leave before 8 PM and take an hour for lunch.
        \_ I find differences in all managers, regardless of race. I've
           had six managers, all caucasian, and they ranged from senile
           to intelligent, from hands-on to "I dunno what a function is",
           from socialable to introverted.
        \_ I think culture plays such a big role here. I've had Caucasian
           mgrs who are just absolutely great; maybe because they have such
           a cheerful personality that you can get along with them like
           buddies and they understand young people. Then I've also had a
           Taiwanese manager who's old-school who grunt when you leave work
           before 7 PM, who keep on raising the bar on you and so demanding
           that they really don't give a shit about your life outside work.
           No stereotype here, but old school hard working managers often
           expect their subordinates to do the same, regardless of race -jthoms
              \_ I've worked for asian, indian and caucasian managers and
                 I have to say that the caucasian managers were the best
                 of the bunch. They knew where their technical limits were
                 and they knew how to deal with personality problems and
                 how to defend thier team in meetings with higher ups.
                 I recieved larger option grants, bigger bonuses and better
                 equipment as rewards for a job well done under caucasian
                 managers than under the others. Asian and Indian managers
                 never wanted to reward or promote anyone, they were just
                 interested in covering thier own ass and getting as much
                 out of you for as little pay as possible.
                 The asian and indian managers never realized that if
                 you like the company and the work you don't have to be
                 forced to show up and work.
           \_ it's the horrid "Thou shalt suffer as I have suffered."
              philosophy. Very stupid. Very "lets reinvent the wheel".
           \_ They may influence how the team itself is built.
              I watch a manager in a "neighbouring" department hire
              programmers.... and strangely enough, 3 out of the 4 new
              hires all spoke cantonese. Pure coincidence that she was
              a cantonese-speaking chinese woman, eh?
                \_ not to stereotype or anything, but I hate Cantonese
                   workers. They have a high tendency to talk loudly and have
                   a high tendency to talk about stock market, BMW, dim-sum,
        \_ Best manager I ever had was a tall slender blonde woman --asian guy
                   so on and so forth. And they rarely mix well (read-- no
                   assimilation) with other Asian race. Say no to Cantonese,
           Once had a Taiwanese manager and he was cool, confident and
           good jokes, never grunted, probably atypical.  --asian guy
                   the bane and the embarrasement of the Chinese race.
                   \_ Where is cantonese spoken? Mainland? Taiwan? HK?
                      \_ guang dong provence, which is where guang zhou is.
                                guang zhou == canton
                        \_ the ones you see here are usually from Hong Kong.
                   \_ wtf are you talking about?  embarrassment of the Chinese
                      race?  I find southerners (cantonese) to be more friendly
                      and easy-going than stuck-up northerners.  northern food
                      sucks too. (and before you accuse me of being biased, one
                      of my parents is from the the north, and the other is
                      from the south.)
                   \_ I don't know what you mean about rarely mixing well.
                      Since most Cantonese had British education, their
                      English is usually pretty damn good.  I don't know what
                      the hell you mean about not mixxing well with other Asian
                      races.  Who DOES mix well, in Asia?
                      Yes, they tend to be on the materialistic side, but
                      seriously, how many in the bay area are not?  I can not
                      see how they would be any worse than say the Taiwanese.
                \_ This is common among all races.  Indians hire indians,
                   Vietnamese hire vietnamese.  This behavior is especially
                   promoted by referal bonuses.  If anything, my impression
                   was that the Cantonese seem the most equal opportunity
                   among the Asians.
                   \_ There are two type of indians, one who will hire only
                      other indians and the other who will hire anyone other
                      that indian. I have not found this phenomenon in other
                      cultures (except perhaps caucasian).
                      Anyway, as an Indian I tend to be reluctant to hire
                      other indians because I don't trust them to do a good
        \_ Best manager I ever had was a tall slender blonde woman -- best
           support, best pay and bonuses and review and had sense of humor.
           Once had a Taiwanese manager and he was cool, confident, told
           good jokes, never grunted, probably atypical.  Had 3 male
           white bosses, all fine. Differences may be due to culture
           or background or the fact that white folks are used to being
           the rulers in command of their subordinates in American society
           whereas others are just struggling with no role models.
           Certainly, being a manager involves people-skills and being with
           people of like mind and background helps smooth things, but that
           does not mean it's anything more than a minor issues. You may even
           differences will help the project. And to be a good, valuable worker
           or manager nowadays, esp. with global corporations and customers,
           you need to learn to work w/ others. --asian guy
                \_ I'd love a tall, slender blonde woman too, but for
                   reasons other than you said...
                \_ is that you, my little lollipop.
2001/6/22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:21598 Activity:nil
6/21    David Copperfield, a magician in the US, is a master of supernormal
        abilities who once performed the feat of walking through the Great
        Wall of China. When he was about to pass through the Wall, he used a
        white cloth as a cover, pressed himself against the Wall, and then
        proceeded to go through it. Why did he do that? Doing it that way
        would lead many people to consider it a magic show. It had to be done
        like that since he knew there are many people in China with great
        supernormal abilities. He was afraid of interference from them, so he
        covered himself before he went in. When coming out, he raised the
        cloth with one hand and walked out. As the saying goes , With it done
        this way the audience thought it was a magic performance. These
        supernormal abilities are called magic because they aren't used for
        cultivating the human body, but for stage performances in order to
        display unusual things and to entertain. From a low-level perspective,
        qigong can change the condition of one's body, achieving the goals of
        healing and health. From a high-level perspective, qigong refers to
        the cultivation of one's original-body (benti).
2001/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21548 Activity:insanely high
6/17/2001  If you're concerned about competing for jobs with H1B visa
           recipients, consider writing your Congresspeople and president.
           The economy sucks right now and companies are hiring H1B people
           instead of recent grads or recent layoff-ees.
           You can find addresses for some senators/congressmen/president in
           ~peterm/Addresses.  Get your friends to write, too.  --PeterM
           \_ I didn't have you pegged as a xenophobe, peterm.  -tom
             \_ I deny being xenophobic.  The rationalization for H1Bs
                was always that companies couldn't fill positions.
                I know plenty of people who can't find jobs now.
                The time for H1B's has ended, for now.  I'm happy to
                have them all back when the economy improves.  Also,
                I have no objection to IMMIGRATION.  But this half-assed
                H1B serfdom is perverting the market.--PeterM
           \_ It's pretty easy to work at a University job and say being
              against H1B Visa's is an example of xenophobia.  Try
              competing in the open market where you are up against H1B
              people who claim to be able to do your job for 1/3 the pay
              and see how pro H1B you end up being.  The result is that
              the market gets flooded, wages go down, and you've turned
              California into the traffic congested, out of energy mess
              it is today.  -ax
              \_ It's easy to sit around in a job with artifically high
                 wages created by an artificially constrained supply of
                 workers and then complain when the party's over.  -tom
              \_ let me get this straight.  are you seriously blaming
                 immigrants for the energy crisis in california?
           \_ If a company is dumb enough to hire someone less qualified
              (and believe me, there are a lot) then they should have the
              right to. But I don't think being an H1Ber has any bearing
              on your qualifications (or your lack thereof) or your likely-
              hood of being hired. Actually, you're probably less likely
              because managers would rather not go through the hassle of
              dealing with an H1B applicant. As for my experience, I had
              to work with 2 NCGs, one of which had an H1B. I found the
                              \_ ??
                                \_ new college graduate. -tom
              American citizen utterly incompetent but the guy on H1B to
              be qualified.
          \_ from a companies point of view, H1B's can be good -- they tend
             to get locked to a company 3-6 years at a time.
             Also, do you have more objective proof of some of the annecdotes
             you offer?
             \_ Of course it is good for companies. Wouldn't you want
                an employee you could underpay, overwork, and have thrown
                out of the country for any reason whatsover?
        \_ PeterM, immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. Without
           the cheap Indian and Chinese workers the hi-tech industry wouldn't
           have boomed the way before. Also without the cheap Mexican and
           negros you'd have to pay $10 per nugget. Immigrants are good.
           \_ You are right.  We needed the foreign labor then.  Now,
              we don't, and citizens have to compete with non-citizens
              who cannot compete fairly in the job market because they
              are hindered by red tape.  IF WE WANT FOREIGN WORKERS
              MAKE THEM CITIZENS INSTEAD OF H1Bs.  No more H1Bs.  Either
              FULL citizenship or GET THEM OUT.  --PeterM
              \_ what about green cards?
                \_ Those with green cards don't have to have an employer to stay
                   in the country, right?  Their bargaining position is
                   equal to a citizen's, then, and they won't pervert the
                   labor market, as much, or at all.  --PeterM

 /___\ /___\   |_|
| |_| | |_| ||_  |
| | | | | | | _| |
 \ _ / \ _ /___  |
  ___   ___ _____
  ____         _          _____                  _
 / ___| ___   | |_ ___   |_   _|____  ____ _ ___| |
| |  _ / _ \  | __/ _ \    | |/ _ \ \/ / _` / __| |
| |_| | (_) | | || (_) |   | |  __/>  < (_| \__ \_|
 \____|\___/   \__\___/    |_|\___/_/\_\__,_|___(_)
2001/6/13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/Rants] UID:21497 Activity:nil
6/12    china barbi
2001/6/4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21422 Activity:very high
6/3     Soes anyone here have direct expierience or knowledge of
        Falun Gong?  i don't belive anyithing I read in the US press
        about China (since i know sow much of it is lies, and of
        course everything in the Chinese press is lies.)  I'm curious.
        Is this a Moonie-esqe cult, or just some harmless morning excersices?
        Why does it piss off the gov't so much?  I'm asking here beacause
        I know there are alot of chinese people who post to the motd.  If
        you have some opinion based on bullshit you read in the Times,
        please keep it to yourself.
        \_ Go to the China Consulate in SF and ask them yourself.
        \_ They protest outside the China consulate in SF. Go there and
           ask them yourself.
          \_ Falun Gong is a cult.  So was communism in China (and other
             countries that enforced communism as their state idealogy).
             However the old cult of communism was running out of steam
             and appeal, so Falun as well as scores of others emerge to
             fill the "spiritual" vacuum.  In fact Falun became popular
             and powerful in part because a LOT of retired communists,
             including powerful (ex-)officials, became believers.  Then
             conflicts ensued.  Li Hongzhi panicked and organized an
             unprecedented but peaceful protest outside the leadership
             compound (but in other instances they had tried to use violence
             and coercion to silenced their powerless civilian critique).
             Then Jiang Zemin panicked and ordered a complete crackdown.
             Falun started out as one of many breathing exercises that many of
             the senior government leaders endoresed and encouraged, but
             soon, like every scheme (and similar to communism) of this sort,
             become a mind controlling and deprogramming cult.  Fa Lun
             Da Fa, its official sutra, contains complete description of the
             cosmos, tales of alien life, diatribe against homosexuality,
             and most of all, answers for all the mysteries of life that many
             post-communism confused Chinese weary of all the spiritual
             search are dying for.  Of course their choice for answers,
             stupid or otherwise, is not a crime or a mistake that the
             government should force them to correct.  The NYT is right in
             spirit when reporting that they are being persecuted, though
             not in detail, and certainly not in painting Li as a benevolent
             teacher or victim.  Unfortunately, the U.S. has a bad record
             of calling in troops and masscaring cult victims, and has
             provided the Chinese government with free propaganda example.
             \_ I agree with this.  I have met members.  One had a big
                picture of the leader on the wall like a shrine.  This is
                definately a cult.
                \_ Uh-huh.  Then most martial arts schools and many restaurants
                   in the bay area are also cults.
                \_ but did they have Leader beans?
                   \_ Don't you mean Batman beans?
                      \_ nananananana Leader!  nanananananana Leader!
2001/5/14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign] UID:21275 Activity:nil
5/13    Wanted : US military/trade secrets.
        \_ yermom is fat and ugly
           \_ !secret
                \_ now that's just wrong - it's mother's day!
                   \_ every day is yermom's day
        \_ Check the LBL website or ask a foreign visitor.
        \_ contact your friendly local chinese scientist, they are
           more than willing to sell thier souls and this country
           to the dregges of humanity
2001/5/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21262 Activity:high
11/7    This is a very, very proud day for us!  Especially me, George W,
        beat Al Gore!  It's just like David and Goliath, only this time,
        David won!
        \_ More like the Battle of Marathon. The Greeks defeated the
           Persians ensuring that peace, freedom, democracy and prosperity
           would survive for all time. I shudder to think of the state
           of this country, her freedoms and her prosperity if a idiot
           like Gore had won.
           \_ Yeah, it would have been great. Instead we now have to deal
              with an even bigger idiot named George.
              \_ George may not be the smartest kid on the block, but
                 at least he knows that tax cuts are good, building
                 power plants is good, helping american corporations
                 is good, missle defense is good.
                 So far is biggest mistake has been in not parking
                 the USS Enterprise in the South China Sea and bombing
                 the RED CHINESE COMMIE SCUM out of existence.
                 Instead of flying P3s, we should be flying B2s with
                 fully armed nukes over Shangi.
                 \_ Great just what this country needs: another bullshit
                    war staged expressly for the purpose of bolstering
                    weak-ass public opinion polls.  *sigh*  Might help
                    the economy I suppose.  I mean, what's a few million
                    chinks mean to anyone, right?
                    \_ "bullshit war"? I'm talking about the battle for
                        freedom, prosperity and democracy against the
                        forces of totalitarianism, communism and evil,
                        but I guess that doesn't mean much to you.
                        \_ troll harder.  Faster!  Harder!  Shove that troll
                           in me and make me scream like the whore I am!
2001/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21241 Activity:high
5/11    So this is why the Chinese were so worried about the recon flights:
        \_ Uh, China usually holds nuke tests IN RESPONSE to things that
           make them pissed.
           get them pissed.
           \_ uh huh. i suppose that's why they stole the nuke secrets in the
              first place right?
2001/5/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21211 Activity:high
5/8     If you find out your pilot is Chinese, would you:
        \_ xenopohic prick
           \_ I don't think you know what xenophobia is.  Look up "xeno".
              Then look up "phobia".  Only then will you be ready to play.
              \_ xenophobia = fear or hatred of something foreign
                 \_ whether or not he understood what it means, he clearly
                    could have used a dictionary anyway...
                    should have used a dictionary anyway...
              \_ Yes they can, just not commercial jets.  Pilots in China and
                 Taiwan are experienced military pilots, so they like doing
                 "man" things like steep climbs/descends and landing in
           \_ he's right, even asians know they can't drive
              \_ Yes they can, just not commercial jets.  Pilots in Mainland
                 China and Taiwan are experienced military pilots, so they like
                 doing "man" things like steep climbs/descends and landing in
                 severe weather which shouldn't be done with civilian jets
                 where safety should come before manhood and chickening out is
                 usually the right thing to do.
        wait for the next flight:       ..
        hop on-board and pray:          .
        make fun of him:                .
        ask him about his sister
        not worry because you know PLA pilots are top notch and would never
        do something stupid like ram a prop plane with their jet:
        \_ And why would a pilot ram a jet with their prop plane?
          \_ cuz the commie scum saw american movies and is a wanna be
2001/5/5 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign] UID:21170 Activity:nil
5/4     http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=182866 my favorite line:

        China frequently accuses the United States of acting as if it is above
        the law and Friday's commentary said "the Bush administration's
        behavior in the past 100 days has illustrated that an
        ultra-self-centered 'America first' attitude is gaining more ground in
        U.S. foreign policy."

        Imagine that?  America's foreign policy would dare to put American
        interests first?  I'm ashamed to be a citizen of a country that doesn't
        put the rest of the world first....
2001/4/30-5/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:21144 Activity:very high
4/30    Regarding Jet Li's wife: Hong Kong is a metric "country", yes.  Yet
        when people talk about body measurements, inches are used, unlike in
        Japan where centimeters are used.
        \_ in any case, it's obvious that "37" is an inch measure.
           \_ Correct.  And there's nothing unrealistic about 36A or 34B.
              \_ Well, cup sizes weren't used to be measured back in those days
                 for some reason, so we didn't know what cup it was with the
                 37.  This was changed in recent years.
                 \_ She might be a 37" chest but with a B cup that makes her
                    a barrel with bumps.  Enjoy the thought.  Maybe you'd like
                    a 44A, too?  That's even bigger so it must be better,
                    right?  Anyway, whatever her measurements on paper, I've
                    seen the pics and she's nothing special.  I like the part
                    in her bio where she got wiped out in real estate so she
                    got married instead.
                    \_ Hmm, this is pretty big cup without pads to me:
                        \_ You're nuts.  I'm on my third 36DD and all three
                           make her look tiny.
                           \_ But what waist measurements do your three 36DD's
                              have?  I'd think the ratio is important too.  My
                              ex- had 38D bust, but with a 30 waist that wasn't
                              very attractive.
                              \_ All three were 36/36/36.  I like them like
                                 poles with bumps.
                                 \_ you're a lyin mofo
                                        \_ You're lame.  It's a joke, son.
                                           Where is Cal finding their freshmen
                                           these days?  The morgue?
                                           \_ San Jose.
        \_ exactly.  like some one can have 17 cm chest.
2001/4/30-5/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:21143 Activity:insanely high
4/30    Remember kiddies, do your part to arm china. buy more chinese goods
        - help the PLA/PLAN/PLAAF.
        \_ this is dumb. of course i'll buy chinese goods. if it's the same
           quality for less, i'd be stupid not to. the real problem is our
           trade policies that put no compensatory tariffs on imports from
           nations that do not adhere to environmental and labor standards
           that domestic companies must, and nations like Japan that have
           high trade barriers to which we do not respond in kind, and groups
           like whatever lobby is responsible for our continued monetary aid
           to places like israel that i doubt any american really wants their
           tax dollars being funneled to.
           \_ Monetary aid to Israel that is pre-earmarked to buying American
              weapons.  It's really just a grant to the American weapons
              industry.  Those dirty Jews don't get the cash to spend on
              just any old thing.
              \_ what does that have to do with anything? it's still giving
                 them my money. does this somehow make it okay, or good for
                 taxpayers? if it's so good we should have the government
                 buy tons of computers and cars and other shit and give that
                 away too.
                 \_ Medicare and Welfare and the EPA are giving my money
                    away to worthless causes. At least if my money is used
                    to purchase weapons that are used by the people of
                    Israel defend thier homes and thier freedoms, my money
                    is put to better use than wasting it on some lowlifes
                    who can't get off thier asses to find work or for some
                    tree huggers who just want to stand in the way of modern
                    civilization and progress.
                    \_ what does this have to do with anything? all this
                       is irrelevant to the fact that tax dollars are going
                       to israel, and i've never seen anyone that wants this,
                       except the israelis.
                       \_ *I* want this.  Now you can't honestly say you don't
                          know of American citizens who want their tax money
                          to go to support Israel.  You'd rather it go to what?
                          If they're going to tax the shit out of me, better it
                          goes to Israeli weapons than some welfare whores.
                          \_ are you jewish? if so, i rest my case. otherwise,
                             why do you consider this an either/or case? both
                             are happening. why do you keep bringing up welfare?
                             \_ You rest your case?  Based on what?  I'm an
                                American and I pay a shitload of taxes to the
                                state and federal government all year long. I'm
                                also a registered voter and I actually vote.
                                Can you provide a URL for where it says tax
                                paying, voting American born citizens have no
                                say in how their money gets spent?  And welfare
                                has a lot to do with it.  I'll say it again for
                                you.  This is _my_ money they're taking in
                                taxes.  If I must pay taxes I want the money to
                                go to things I support, like Israel and not
                                things I don't such as welfare whores.  What is

                                so hard to understand about that?
                                \_ right. do you understand that disabled people
                                wasn't going to the defense of Isreal, it would
                                   are on medicare/welfare? not everyone is
                                   able to support themselves. i suppose you
                                   would just have them killed? or leave them
                                   to their poverty. furthermore, welfare
                                   choices are issues that come up in elections;
                                   sending money to israel doesn't. it is not
                                   the duty of the united states to send money
                                   to foreign nations to support "causes."
                                   the world runs on self-interest. the money
                                   is sent because of self-interest groups
                                   with undue influence.
                                   \_ The number of people on welfare who
                                      can't take care of themselves is miniscule.
                                      Most of the people on the dole are
                                      just to lazy to get a job.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilt to most
                                      In the case of Israel, if we don't
                                      support them, they will not survive.
                                      And the "holy land" will not be free.
                                      I'm not jewish, christian or muslim,
                                      but the though of Jerusalem in Muslim
                                      hands is frightening.
                                      \_ god you are an idiot. on what do you
                                         base this "miniscule" claim?? anyway
                                         the job of the *US* government is to
                                         do things that help the *US* people,
                                         not the israeli people, you fuckwit.
                                         besides which, israel is and has been
                                         for decades overwhelmingly capable of
                                         defending itself. if you want to
                                         support them further you can send
                                         your own money there, but you can't
                                         pretend that most americans would do
                                         so. there are many causes right here
                                         in the usa that money could be spent
                                         \_ welfare is not help, esp. when
                                            most of the people who are on
                                            welfare are using my money to
                                            buy drugs and avoid work. Ideally
                                            the government wouldn't waste
                           commies traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                                            any money and I wouldn't be
                                            overtaxed, but in reality that
                                            won't happen because of the
                                            greedy liberals in Washington
                                            who think that its their $s
                                            instead of mine. Since money
                                            will be wasted anyway, better
                                            that it gets put to good use
                                            defending Israel rather than
                                            to bad use by some crack whore
                                            in the bronx.
                                 in case you forgot the point   _/
                                 of this, it isn't whether israel
                                 is a "good cause", it's whether US
                                 representatives should be doing things
                          \_ Did you read the link to the Dir. Freeh's
                             statement? He states that the charges were
                             dropped because proving would compromise
                             national security.
                                 that *most* americans do not want,
                                 for their own personal gain. and you
                                 can't elect/not elect based on these
                                 issues because they are buried under
                                 more important ones. this is called
                                 corruption. your "it's good because
                                 at least it's not welfare" is totally
                                 ridiculous. the same goes for our
                                 trade policies.
                                   \_ Prove to me that *most* americans
                                      don't want to support Israel or
                                      that such support is given by
                                      elected representatives for personal
                                      \_ it's not a matter of "support" it's
                                         a matter of doling out money. we
                                         "support" taiwan but we don't actually
                                         buy their arms with tax dollars. us
                                         policies in the middle east have a lot
                                         to do with arabs hating the usa, they
                                         didn't just wake up one morning and
                                         decide "usa sux". but that's ok,
                                         cuz they're muslims, and it's ok to
                                         be anti-muslim.
                                 \_ Why do you keep saying "most" Americans
                                    agree with you?  URL, please?  Here, how
                                    about I say something equally unfounded:
                                    "Most Americans want tax money spent on
                                    Israel".  There.  Now we've both said
                                    something unfounded, unproven and unknown.
                                    We're now equally stupid and ridiculous.
                                    And I think *you* forgot the point of this.
                                    This thread was started as a "boycott
                                    Chinese goods" thread, not the antisemitic
                                    thread you turned it into.
                                    \_ oh that's classic. i was just waiting
                                       for the "antisemitic" thing to come up.
                                       the typical shield. you don't want to
                                       give your money to israel?? you racist
                                       bastard! you don't want to be RACIST,
                                       do you? that's right, cough it up.
                                       fucking dumbshit. and i brought up
                                       israel as an example of a special
                                       interest cause, because our stupid
                                       trade policies wrt china are also
                                       governed by special interest groups.
                                       \_ Lets all just agree to disagree.
                                       \_ You still fail to provide any proof
                                          of your assertion that "most Americans"
                                          oppose helping Israel and hide behind
                                          one minor comment.  Israel isn't a
                                          random special interest cause.  It is
                                          the only democracy and friendly
                                          nation in a very unfriendly area of
                                          the world to the US.  It behooves
                                          this country to help that country.
                                          Where's that link about "most
                                          Americans"?  Ho hum... oh?  There
                                          isn't one?  You were just debating
                                          out your ass?  What a surprise!  I
                                          called you anti-semitic because you
                                          instantly dismissed any defense of
                                          Israel thinking I might be Jewish.
                                          You're an anti-semite.  That's ok.
                                          You're not a alone.  A lot of people
                                          are.  Now where's that link about
                                          "most Americans" agreeing with you
                                          on the subject of helping Israel?
                                          \_ i'm not going to argue about
                                             the real point when you bring
                                             the anti-semite bullshit into
                                             this. what possible basis do
                                             you have for calling me this?
                                             all i did was dismiss support
                                             for this policy by jews, since
                                             by definition their religion
                                             obligates them to consider
                                             israel the holy land etc. which
                                             is just reality. the religion
                                             says they're the chosen people.
                                             obviously they're going to be
                                             biased. if you can't understand
                                             this you're a waste of time.
                                             \_ You're guilty as charged and
                                                still unable to provide a link
                                                saying *any* Americans agree
                                                with your views, much less
                                                "most" Americans.  You put up
                                                a good fight for someone with
                                                such obvious biases and near
                                                zero debate skills, but it's
                                                over.  You got no links, you
                                                got no argument, you got nada.
                                                Insert coin to continue? Y/n
                                if debate skills consist of twisting _/
                          \_ Maybe so for long dead people, but
                             poor villagers in India almost always
                             have better teeth than city slickers.
                             Their teeth may be colored, but its
                             never rotten, and that largely due to
                             thier diet.
                                a discussion into "you're racist" and
                                "i'm right and you're wrong" then yes
                                you have commendable debate skills.
                                \_ You both are complete morons. Stop
                                   extending this damn motd to a 50 page
                             \_ I'm not jewish. It is either/or. If my money
                                wasn't going to the defense of Israel, it would
                                be getting wasted on dipshit treehuggers, and
                                welfare crack whores. If my $s have to get
                                spent, better it is on the defense of the
                                Jewish homeland.
                       \_ Tax $s get misspent all the time. At least with
                          Israel its going to a good cause.
                          \_ what is good about that cause?
                             \_ The struggle for the freedom and the right
                                of the Jewish people to live. The defense
                                of the rights and freedoms of people is
                                by definition a good cause.
        \_ Uhm, whatever.  Avoiding Chinese goods won't make a big difference.
           Kicking all their students and spies out might.
           \_ Yeah. We, like, need to build Chinese internet camps like we
              did for Japanese Americans in WWII because you know how all of
              them were spies.
                \_ Yeah, like we need more straw men like this.  Nice try.
                \_ Chinese internet camps would be cool.  t3 lines to every
                   computer and only chinese are alowed to use it.
                   \_ the US would be taken over rapidly.. he means internment?
                        \_ I think he does but he's too busy trolling to check
                           his spelling and word choices.
        \_ 1824, Ralph Waldo Emerson
                   "The closer contemplation we condescend to
                   bestow, the more disgustful is that booby nation I
                   have no gift to see a meaning in the venerable
                   vegetation of this extraordinary people. They are
                   tools for other nations to use. Even miserable
                   Africa can say I have hewn the wood and drawn
                   the water to promote the civilization of other lands.
                   But China, reverend dullness, hoary idiot! All she
                   can say at the convocation of nations must be --- I
                   made the tea."
           1881, Republican Senator,John Miller of California:
                   "The Chinese are inhabitants of another planet.
                   Machine like. They are automatic engines of flesh
                   and blood. Why not discriminate? Why aid in the
                   increase and distribution over our domain of a
                   degraded and inferior race, and the progenitors of
                   an inferior sort of men. We ask you to secure us
                   American anglo-saxon civilization without
                   contamination or adulteration. Let us keep pure the
                   blood which circulates through our political
                   system. And preserve our life from the gangrene of
                   oriental civilization."
           1999, Representitive of California, Christopher Cox:
                   "essentially ALL Chinese visitors to the U.S. are
                    potential spies. Futhermore, all Chinese Americans
                    are potential "sleeper agents," who can be used at
                    any time but may not be activated for a decade or

           When we fought a civil war to abolished Slavery, we put
           Chinese labors in pig pens and import to Cuba (the term we
           used them was "coolies").

           When we talk about innocent until proven guilty, Wen Ho Lee
           was in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, shackled from
           waist down for MONTHS without possiblity of bail.  Though
           we can't prove it, but his name is indeed too Chinese
           sounding to be innocent.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilty to most
              of the charges filed against him and there was no question
              as to his guilt in those charges. Only one or two of the
              most serious charges have been dropped. There is still
              no doubt in the minds of most *rational* americans that
              Dr. Lee's action were not in the best interest of this
              nation, its secuity and its people.
              \_ what the fuck are you smoking?  MOST of all his charges were
                 dropped except for a few (like a couple i believe).  Why
                 don't you track down the Time articles are these before you
                 \_ Cough... Time articles?  I bet you love those
                    little colored pie charts in USA Today, right?
                    Lee was guilty.
                    \_ At long last, sir, have you no shame? Have you no
                       sense of decency, sir?
                        \_ Still doesn't mean they weren't a bunch of fucking
                           commie traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                           still are.
                 \_ Okay, 58 of the 59 counts were dropped, but not
                    because Dr. Lee was innocent, its because proving
                    in court that he was guilty would have ment that the
                    FBI (under the  espionage act) would have had to
                    reveal too much information about national security
                    procedures and the information that was stolen.
                    Here's a URL even:
                    \_ That's the same David Horowitz that tjb quotes.
                       What are you, 64, white, and living in Alabama?
                       Be ashamed of yourself and stop polluting the motd
                       with random URLs pretending to know something.
                   \_ quoting horowitz is not going to win you
                      points around here
                    \_ God damn it!  Stop bringing facts into this!  I really
                       hate when you shut down someone's little rant on their
                       personal agenda with facts.
                       \_ Facts? What facts? The http://salon.com article just
                          mentioned a bunch of hearsays and conjectures
                          of what might have happened.
                          \_ Try again.  I know it's hard.
                             \_ Whatever. You just need a good beating.
                                Because someone said something doesn't
                                make it a fact. The URL points out a lot
                                of facts but none of the facts prove
                                Dr. Lee was a spy.  "Fact: The sky is
                                blue today. Conclusion: Jon Doe was the
                                killer." is a pathetic argument. The
                                same goes for "Fact: Freeh said that
                                that proving Dr. Lee guilty would have
                                resulted in a breach in national security.
                                conclusion: Dr. Lee is a Chinese spy." is
                                also an equally pathetic argument.
                                \_ If proving Dr. Lee guilty (which he
                                   obviously ws) would further compromise
                                   national security, the FBI has to
                                   cut its losses. What part of that
                                   do you not understand?
                                   \_ [ followup about just needing to
                                        prove mishandling of secrets
                                        deleted (censored?) ]
                                      \_ Actually, you have to produce
                                         the files that were mishandled
                                         or at least details about thier
                                         contents under the espionage act.
                                         This is a big problem in certain
                                         cases, esp. in nuclear weapons
                                         technology (which Lee was involved
                                         in *mishandling*).
                    \_ What's special with that?  OJ was innocent too.  Don't
                       blame the races.  Blame the American justice system
                       \_ Wow... this is such a well done troll.  Blunt yet
                          has a subtle hint of "I *must* respond to this
                          fool!".  Bravo!  Well done.
                       \_ I'm not blaming chinese people. I'm just
                          saying that Dr. Lee was guilty.
                       \_ Lee was not *targeted* because he was chinese
                          he was arrested because he *BROKE THE LAW*. Maybe
                          your little criminal mind can't understand
                          that or maybe you don't care about national
                          security or maybe you don't love this nation
                          and its freedoms, but some of us do. And people
                          who compromise the security of this nation
                          have no right to live.
                          \_ Dr. Lee *WAS CHINESE*? I could have sworn
                             he came from a little island that is considered
                             a U.S. ally and very anti-China. In this
                             country, we don't need facts to prove that
                             someone *BROKE THE LAW*. Conjectures and
                             hearsays are good enough.
                             \_ He's still guilty of 1 charge which
                                carries a 25 yr sentence. I'm guessing
                                that means he *BROKE THE LAW*.
                          \_ I agree, and that's why I said blame the justice
                             system for not being able to nail down these
                             \_ The bane of the innocent until proven
                                guilty system is that guilty men walk
                                free. It is the price of assuring that
                                innocent men are not incorrectly locked
                                up. All in all its a better system than
                                say GB's where it guilty until proven
                                innocent and the burden of proof is on
                                the defendent not the prosecution.
                                \_ Great Britain?  No, there it's also
                                   innocent until proven guilty and guilty
                                   men often walk free.  Same problem.
                                   \_ I just checked my facts, you are
                                      right its innocent until proven
                                      guilty, apparently this was changed
                                      in the late 70s because of several
                                      judicial mistakes:
                                      \_ But you still don't have nearly as
                                         many rights in GB as you do here if
                                         you're a defendant.
                                         \_ Agreed, GB defense law sucks.

           Selective enforcement of the law based upon race, ethnicity
           and national orgin is the fundamental building block of
           our great nation.  Without it, there will be no land which
           we can establsih our nation; without it, there will be no
           slaves which fuel our economy.
           \_ I'm a victim, I'm oppressed. Cry me a storm wussy boy.
              You can't be oppressed or victimized unless you let it

           Anti-Chinese is as American as apple pie. So, live with it!
           \_ Hi Paolo!
           \_ Was this supposed to be shocking or something?  And oh yes, I
              would like some more tea.  Go be a good boy and refill my cup.
              \_ Soli sah thea i no mo tea, injuans dump i in bosto harbo.
                 Perhap you like drink coffee?
                 \_ Get the whips.
           \_ I'm pro-Chinese, as long as they're cute girls! --aaron
              \_ Chinese chix are ugly and have bad teeth.
                 \_ Making fun of poverty, how crass.
                    \_ poor != bad teeth
                       \_ poor => bad teeth.  Condition of teeth is one of
                          the ways Archaelogists used to determine the class/
                          social status/material well being from the remains
                          of a person.
                          \_ White racist oppressor arhcaeologists.  The
                             ultimate in racism: racism covered by the veneer
                             of science.  Oppressing people who aren't even
                             here to defend themselves.  How cowardly.
                          \_ This is not strictly true. In India for
                             example, poor villagers often have much
                             better (ie not rotten) teeth than city
                             slickers. Its mostly due to a better
                             \_ Same in China.
                 \_ so do some Japanese chix. Dentistry in the far east sucks.
                    lots less drugs
                    \_ Japanese chix raised in the US are still much
                       more attractive than chinese chix raised in the
                 Japanese chix is where its at.

        \_ List of some spies.  Don't make me dig out my list of 250
           since WWII:
                Harold Nicholson
                Aldrich Ames
                David Sheldon Boone
                Mariano Faget
                George Trofimoff
                Alejandro Alonso
                Earl Pitts
                Richard W. Miller
                Robert Philip Hanssen
                John A. Walker Jr.
                George Bush
                Felix S. Bloch
                Ronald Pelton
                George Blake
                Edward Lee Howard
        \_ xenophobia is bane of society
           \_ buying goods from the enemy is the bane of society
           \_ xenophobia keeps a society from being some random mishmash of
              crap like this country is becoming.
              \_ and i supposed your ancestors were native americans who
                 didn't emigrate here like everyone else? that's about
                 as logical as saying america's strength is derived from
                 being one homogenous population.
2001/4/29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic] UID:21137 Activity:moderate
4/28    http://www.mcicenter.com/index.html
Powered by
Honker Union of China
c001====== H.U.C =====1i0n
The manifesto of Chinese Hackers:
Beat down Imperialism of American!
China will kill all the American!
No American!No U.S.A!
        \_ Shouldn't that be "hooker,"  not "honker"?
        \_ So some weenies hacked an IIS box and posted some drivel.  Why
           should anyone care?  Let me know when they've managed to take over
           the electrical grid or shutdown a nuclear power plant or made muni
           run on time.  "Chinese hax0rz take over American infrastructure!!"
           is *not* a headline you'll ever see.
        \_ beware of the Communist Hackers In North America!
2001/4/27-29 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:21124 Activity:very high
4/27    Cubans on Cuba, Castro, and his people.
        I post this because I liked the point about 'freedom vs physical/other
        well being' about halfway down.
        \_ nationalreview.  Now there is a good impartial source.
                \_ It's an opinion piece dumbshit.  Back to English 1A for you.
                   This isn't a news article.  It is *supposed* to be partial.
                   Use the tiny shred of brains God put in your thick skull to
           have been involved in instituting death squads in Chile.
                   figure out some basics before posting.
        \_ This article is idiotic.  The same line of reasoning leads one to
           conclude that "the US is a great place which affords many people
           the ability to live well, but this is irrelevant because we
           were involved in instituting death squads in Chile."
           \_ What death squads in Chile?
              \_ in the '70's. Read up on what happened under Pinochet.
           \_ Commie alert... Get the fuck out of the USA if you dont like it.
              Maybe Red China would suit your fancy.
                \_ join the army and get the fuck out of berkeley you redneck.
                   \_  So now liberals equate patriotism with being a redneck.
                       This country is fucked and we have people like you
                       to thank for it.
                       Its simple: communism, socialism and facism, in any form,
                       are evil.  US foreign policy is predicated on this
                       doctrine.   I'm sorry if you do not understand this, maybe
                       one day you will.
                       doctrine.   I'm sorry if you do not understand this,
                       maybe one day you will.
                       \_ Bzzt. Thank you for playing. -actual veteran
                   \_  One more thing - only the lowest of scum would disparage
                       a military that fought with the lives of its soldiers
                        for the freedoms you so frivolously enjoy.
                   \_ When did berkeley seceed from the union? If you don't
                      freedom and prosperity GTF out of the US of A and go
                      live in a that 3rd world COMMIE ghetto called CHINA.
              \_ Sorry, let me clarify -- This line of reasoning leads one to
                 conclude that "the fact that the US affords many people a
                 high standard of living is irrelevant because we were
                 involved insitituting death squads in Chile."  I wasn't
                 Look at their GDP (absolute or PPP).
                                             \_ how do you know? i might be
                                                in chile right now.
                 expression my beliefs -- i was showing the absurdity of
                 the logic in the article above.
                 \_ Logic flaw: we're not in Chile.  Thanks for playing.
        \_ The reality is material well being is very difficult to
           achieve.  In the last hundred and fifty years, the only
           non-western countries that attained it were Japan, Hong Kong,
           and Singapore.  Hong Kong and Singapore are little cities,
           and Hong Kong isn't even a country.  All three attained it
           under non-democratic governments.  The truth is being close
           \_ what about Taiwan?
              \_ Taiwan and South Korea are close, but not there yet.
                 Look at their GDP (absolute or PPP).  They are and
                 have been close friends with the west for quite
                 some time, much longer than they have been democracies.
           friends with the developed west is a prerequisite for
           attaining material well-being.  Being democratic and free
           is not a prerequisite.
2001/4/24-25 [Consumer/Camera, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:21080 Activity:high
4/389   <DEAD>www.psychoexgirlfriend.com/voicemails.html<DEAD>
        \_ yes, thank you.  also, a chinese jet collided with an american
           reconnaissance craft, film at 11.
                \_ no shit!  really?  when did that happen?
2001/4/18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Languages] UID:21015 Activity:nil
4/17    Did you know that asking "how to XYZ" (instead of "how do you do XYZ")
        is grammatically correct in Russian?                    -misha
           \_ Hey, sign with your login name, imposter! -- real misha.
                \_ 'misha' sounds like a girl's name.  Only that you're
                   not a girl you're a big ugly guy.  Why do you have
                   such a cute name.
        \_ Interesting but thankfully this isn't Russia and most of us are
           not fluent in Russian.  When the Russians emerge from the stone
           age, get a grip on their economy, wipe out their mafia, stop selling
           mass destruction technologies to terrorists and make some minimal
           effort cleaning up the communist era environmental mess, I'll take
           a tour with my english/russian guidebook in hand.
           \_ huh? That entire paragraph would be just as valid if you
              replaced "Russia" with "America", and "communist era" with
              "unrestrained capitalist era".With the possible removal
              of that crack about the stone age.
              \_ Unrestrained capitalism is good, young troll.
              \_ you have much to learn, seeker. the wise sodan would have
                 simply implemented said replacement to greater effect.
              \_ BZZZZT!  You have much to learn, Seeker.  The wise Sodan would
                 have known wtf he was talking about before spewing the typical
                 ignorant lefist rhetoric about the US being the same as all
                 other countries.  I'll grant that Russian material sciences
                 are ahead of the rest of the world, the rest is still in the
                 70's if it wasn't stolen.  So you're actually wrong twice in
                 a sense.  You get an "A for effort" to keep your self esteem
                 up though and to increase diversity.  We need stupid people
                 at Cal, too.
                 \_ You get a "D" for debate talent. There is virtually
                    nothing you said specific to the text preceeding.
        \_ Lots of weird sentence fragment stuff is grammatically correct
           in Russian.  Russian is efficient.  It doesn't have stupid useless
           articles and verbs that do not serve any function.
           \_ we should learn to speak in lisp
              \_ FOL!  FOL!  FOL is the STANDARD!  Language.
        \_ As is in Chinese.
        \_ no, but if you're in need of more efficient usages, try:
                "how is x done?
                "how do I X?"
        \_ then the questions asked on the motd should be in Russian or
        \_ how do you say it in latin?  (there, was that so hard?)
           \_ psb timer has now been started
           \_ owhay?
              \_ did you too attempt to find a translator and came up with
                 nothing but pig latin converters?
                 \_ You suck.
              \_ Partha, Partha, wherefore art thou, Partha?
                 \_ Because his parents named him that.
                    \_ not why, where. "The bard" misused the language.
                       \_ Young troll, you must learn never to contradict
                          dict directly.  Merely twist what is there, ever
                          so slightly.
                       \_ you're a moron.
2001/4/13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:20959 Activity:nil
4/13    You know, G.W. Bush is going to have no problems with China.
        His personality is Chinese (especially the way he gets ticked
        off at people and tells them off in front of everyone), and Chinese
        leaders learned that the hard way.
        \_ In the words of Shaw: "If there is to be any trouble, he will
           have it with me, not I with him."
           GWB is taking a hard line with China, which is great. Those COMMIE
           bastards need to be taken down a peg or three. The sooner they
           realize that they are a insignificant third world country that can
           barely maintain its stranglehold on the freedoms of its people the
           better. I'm glad that the COMMIE friendly Clinton-Gore years are
           finally over.
           And if you thing that China won this last little scuffle, please
           read Charles Krauthammer's piece in yesterday's Washington Post
           and get your head screwed on straight.
2001/4/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:20935 Activity:very high
4/11    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,5455,00.html for the full text of
        the US letter to China.  In English it doesn't look any different than
        what we've been saying for 10+ days. And here's the Chinese version of
        what the US letter said
        You can do your own "compare and contrast".
        \_ With that letter, the Chinese can extract the phrase "We are very
           sorry" out of context and claim that the US is apologizing.
           sorry" out of context and claim that the US is apologizing.  Both
           sides save their faces.
        \_ Chinaman: "velly solly"
2001/4/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:20931 Activity:nil
4/10    chinese chicks!
2001/2/6-7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:20517 Activity:moderate
2/6     Patron Saint of the Internet (how dumb can the pope be?):
        \_ not dumb, senile [moved by the motd mind reader]
           \_ Neither. Quite aware of the humour value.
              \_ Here in America we spell it "humor".
                \_ I see Brit spellings on motd all the time. Who is a
                   well known Brit in CSUA?
                   \_ Wouldn't anyone from Hong Kong use the british spelling?
                      \_ yes, or from Australia, or (I would assume) from almost
                         any other English-speaking nation, aside from the US.
2000/12/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:20195 Activity:nil
12/28   English is not the National Language in the US:
        \_ Yeah, and it's not even required for elected officials
           or the people who try to vote for them.
        \_ Ok... so who is putting the little daffy symbol in Mr. Daffy's
           'corrections'?  "The 1990 Census found that most minority language
           speakers are bilingual --- 94.2 percent of them speak English
           with varying levels of proficiency."  Yes.  Varying.  Like the same
           way I knew the Spanish word for 'water' when the busboy didn't know
           the English word for it.  English, American dialect, *is* the
           national language in the U.S.  Trying to deny the obvious is plain
           stupid.  Have a cookie, troll.
           \_ officially, it is not the official national language.
                It may be the unofficial national language, but not
                the official one.
                \_ Officially?  That's not what the link or the original post
                   is about.  Like, uhm, hey, duh.  We know there isn't an
                   "official" language so why bother mentioning it?  Might as
                   well remind us all that Martian isn't the official language.
              \_ so it's the official unofficial language?
        \_ What the hack.  In Singapore, Malay is the official national
           language, but the government and businesses use English for
           everything, and most people speak Chinese after work.
        \_ the appropriate term is "de facto"
2000/12/9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:20045 Activity:very high
        \_ Joe "Palpatine" Lieberman is the emperor. ALGOR is a robot.
           Seriously, look at a picture of liberman and palpatine from
           The Phantom Meaance ... just a slight hair cut diff.
        \_ motd formatting god was here.
           \_ You cannot resist the powuh of the dahkside!!
           \_ There are always two, the master and the apprentice.
                \_ Like Bush Jr. isn't a tool for the Repub. party,
                   a pupet to give BJs to Cheeny and the Oil Interests.
                   Microns worse than selling the country out to China.
                   \_ What's a "pupet"?  And even if your alt.conspiracy oil
                      interest nonsense had a basis in reality, how do you see
                      opening oil fields in Alaska as worse for the country
                      than handing it over to a foreign power such as China?
                      If you're going to spew leftist noise on the motd, please
                      at least make some bare minimal effort to make sense. Or
                      would that be a logical paradox for you?
                      \_ if someone responds to a star wars quote with
                         anything remotely serious, and you respond seriously
                         you are just as much of an idiot for responding.
                         "who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool
                         who follows him?" -ben kenobi
                         \_ It doesn't matter what he was responding to. His
                            drivel required a response, old ben.
2000/11/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:19814 Activity:high
11/17   There are 260 million Americans.  Is a president who can spell,
        does well academically, is honest, has leadership abilities too
        much to ask for?
        \_ 1) Why does spelling count?  2) Why does GPA count?  3) Yes,
           because our political system is so dirty, very few honest men
           stand a chance of climbing that while yet remaining clean.
           \_ judging from your writing, i'd say you yourself come from
              a pretty fucked up country with horribly unjust politics. -ali
              \_ Name a country that is not f*ed up and has just politics.
                 \_ The president of Kirghizstan is a Ph.D. in physics, with
                    a sizeable amount of work in his field.
                 \_ In Red China we don't have these problems.  All men in
                    power are great leaders and are honest and academic.
                      \_ Yeah, they just shoot people they don't agree
                         \_ But they do it in a fair and nonpartisan manner.
                            They shoot *all* of the people that don't agree
                            with them.  Sounds pretty fair to me.
                            \_ Me Too. - ALGOR
                   \_ They also get any hootchie they want.
        \_ More like ~300 million.  Try counting the immigrants.
                \_ Don't use leftist terminology.  It's 270 or so million
                   citizens and legal residents and 30+ million illegal aliens
                   that are here in violation of the law.  Don't get sucked
                   into the nonsense which blurs the line between perfectly
                   acceptable legal immigration and other violating our
                   borders.  There is a big difference.
                   \_ slavery has been abolished, these aliens should
                      be freed and not held in bondage by the threat of
                        \_ If I wasn't sitting on the floor, I'd have fallen
                           off my chair laughing!  This is one of the best
                           trolls in a long 10+ days worth of trolls!  Yes!
                           No more borders!  One world government!  Oh! Please
                           stop!  It hurts to laugh so hard!  Thank you for
                           brightening my day.
                           \_ Ein Volk!  Ein Reich!  Ein Fuhrer!
                             \- 300M is too high. A little over 275M residents
                                in US [and about 210-220M guns]. --psb
                              \_ "One World, One Web, One Program"
2000/10/15-16 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:19486 Activity:nil
10/15   I just watched the QuickTime preview for Crouching Tiger,
        Hidden Dragon, but it wouldn't be out in the US till Dec.
        and I will be out of the country when it comes out. Anyone
        know if it is available in Chinese with sub-titles? The dubs
        usually suck anyway.
        \_ The pirated copies have been available for some time, and there
           isn't an offical release yet since it's still in theaters. --oj
           \_ Are there any stores in the south bay renting copies?
              Or do I have to download the DiVX/ASF via hotline?
2000/9/26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:19328 Activity:high
9/25    Anybody else find it funny that the Chinese women all missed the
        swimming events?  They have set a few records at the 96 games, but
        unfortunately nobody believes those records.
        \_ I'm sure there are some.
               \_ doze crazy she-males!
        \_ I believe several of them were barred from the current
           Olympics by China itself.
           \_ Yup, one diving gold medalist was barred from 10 meter diving
              this year because at 22 yrs, she was too old.
              \_ And what would be the motivation for that?
                 \_ The State Central Committee for Olympic Swimming wanted to
                    do their part for the Glorious People's Revolution by
                    making some money on the side through the sale of HAWT YUNG
                    NUDE CHINESE SWIMMER PORN to decadent Western running-dog
                    white male Asiaphiles.  Once their swimmers start getting
                    too old to appeal to that clientele, they're dumped for new
                    kids with that 'virginally innocent' look.
                    \_ RED Chinese women look awful. I can't imagine anyone
                       except perhaps a sodan who would want to see them in
                       a porn flick.
                        trials in the springboard. She's still diving in
                        the springboard
                        events, so no big loss.
                           \_ wonderful contribution to the human
                              gene pool thanks to the communist government.
                              they're coming out heinous b/c they're
                              not getting enough nutrition and/or the
                              wrong supplements (i.e. too much fluoride
                              resulting in some major teeth discoloration
                              fuck-ups in the past).
                 \_ She was barred because she didn't win their Olympic
                    trials in the springboard. She's still diving in the
                    springboard events, so no big loss.
                    [ reformatted ]
2000/6/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Recreation/Dating] UID:18416 Activity:insanely high
6/5     Is there a different technique to getting a Korean chick and a
        Chinese chick? I like them all and want to know how to get one.
        \_ Slightly different taste in food.
           \_ They also, consequently, taste different themselves. Chinese
              go well with an old german Reisling while I prefer my
              Koreans with a crisp Pinot Grigio. -(fucker)
           \_ They do not go well with Chateau Gravas, Sauternes.  Such
              dessert wines only go well with white girls.
           \_ Korean and chinese chicken taste the same when deep fried.
        \_ There are many differences. There are many differences just
           among Chinese chick(ens) too. May depend on geography, generation,
           as well as looks and other things. I will go into all of the
           nuances (and more obvious aspects) if I have time after work.
           -- someone who has dated Korean and Chinese
                \_ sky, is that you?
                   \_ No, sky is a punk.
                      \_ What makes me a punk?  Most of my ex's are
                         Korean and my current girlfriend is chinese.
                         All of them have said I am more asian than most of
                         their asian ex's in terms of how I view relationships.
                         Neither am I a racist dick who posts wm/af flame
                         bait in the motd.  White people suck, cept for
                         seano, but he's a fucker.  I could teach you a
                         thing or three about race relations.
                           -- Sky, who has thrown down with his asian
                              brothers against rascist fratboys more than
                              any of you
                         \_ Uh, yeah.  Ok.  By definition, isn't the way the
                            asian guys view relationships the asian male view
                            of relationships?  It seems self-defining to me.
                            Maybe they're saying you have a typically asian
                            female point of view regarding relationships?  And
                            are you saying you're more asian than asians or
                            just in your view of relationships?  ---baffled
                         \_k I rule the sky!
        \_ yeah mon, Asian gf/bf is must have fashion accessory. You need one
           to fit in with your friends.
                \_ lila, is that you?
                   \_ have i ever talked anything like that?  -lila
                        \_ "Asian bfs are aesthetically pleasing"
                           \_ lila has bad taste in men.
                              \_ why, did i accidentally go out with you once?
                                 sign yer name if you're going to insult me.
                                 \_ Who said it was an insult?
                                    \_  i think saying someone has bad taste is
                                        generally considered to be an insult
                           \_ you seem to be confusing me with kchang  -lila
                           \_ Why, because theyre hairless, short, skinny
                              and wear glasses?
                                \_ I've received many compliments on my
                                   nicely-shaped small penis. - tpc
2000/3/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:17796 Activity:insanely high
3/17    Taiwan election results in.  So far, no missiles are firing.
        Let's hope it stays that way.

THREAD SUMMARY: "Asian cultures have plagued our fragile planet for many
        centuries. They should all be eliminated as soon as possible."
        \_ Let the ethnic cleansing in Taiwan begin.
        \_ It takes a few minutes to warm up the missiles, hit the button,
           fly over the water and get Wolf Blitzer out of bed to report on it.
        \_ We (the US) should just tell those STINKING PIG-SUCKING RED COMMIE
           CHINESE BASTARD MOFOS in BEJING that if they don't butt out of
           Taiwan's democracy, we will bomb them into the stone age. As I
           are trying to cosy up with thier kind in RED CHINA at the cost
           see it the whole problem is Clinton-Gore are COMMIES and they
           are trying to cozy up with thier kind in RED CHINA at the cost
           brainwashed by that COMMIE scumback JFK. And the reason that we
           of the good decent hardworking liberty loving people of Taiwan.
           In some ways you can hardly blame Clinton, after all he was
           brainwashed by that COMMIE scumbag JFK. And the reason that we
           have all of these problems anyway is because Truman didn't
           let MacAurthur take on RED CHINA in the 50s.
           \_ I thought the real reason is that Eisenhower didn't let Patten
              take on USSR to wipe out communisum altogether right after
              Germany surrendered in WWII.  -- yuen
              \_ HAHAHAHHAHAHA.  Take on USSR?  Silly child, don't fight a
                 land war in Russia.
                 \_ That's the impression I got from a movie.  Yeah, Napoleon
                    lost a land war in Russia too.  -- yuen
                 \_ Why not?  - Mongolian, descendant of Subedai
                 \_ Why not?  - WWI Kaiser
           \_ Dumbass, the USSR would have declared war if the U.S. attacked
                      Russia is no longer commie.  -- yuen
              China. It would have been a nuclear war that the U.S. would
              have "won" solely cuz the U.S. had more nukes at the time
              But the world would only now be emerging from the nuclear
              holocaust that follows.
                \_ Bullshit.  China and USSR were not allies.  Not even close.
                   Why do you think both have huge numbers of men on both
                   sides of their mutual border?  Partying?  Duh.
                   \_ If they are not allies, why did USSR send all those
                      technical advisers to commie China?
                   \_ Yes, but Russia will side with China to take advantage
                      of the situation if US goes to war with Chian, even
                      though Russia is no longer commie.  -- yuen
                      \_ Russia is neither more nor less commie than it was
                         the last 75 years.  Russia has and always had a
                         criminal, dictatorial government.  It doesn't
                         matter what the government calls itself.
        \_ As a Chinese-American, I have to say, those Chinese in the
        People's Republic are a bunch of fucking punks.  Agreed...
        We should have done more to crush Mao at the very beginning.
        But what can be said...it wasn't in the U.S. interests to bother
        with it at the time.
           \_ Traitor. The U.S. has this unfounded fear that China wants
              to challenge the U.S. - that's not true. They aren't that
              stupid, but if you believe those dumbass Republikans
              China is going to be next evil threat then stop buying
              Made in China stuff - almost all of it helps the PLA get
              stronger. It's a fit of irony that you really can't.
              It's further irony that everyone is ignorant about
              the self-determination of a population when they claim
              to be from a country who extols the values of democracy.
              The Chinese are not Americans, whether through ignorance
              or not, they are much mroe comfortable with auhtoritarian
              governments than you are.Leave them be.
                \_ You mean the unfounded fear based in part on various top
                   level Chinese government officials stating in public that
                   war with the US is inevitable?  Chinese like being slaves?
                   That includes the democratic Taiwanese?  We should just
                   stand around with a thumb up our collective butt while the
                   communists invade Taiwan because they're "much mroe
                   comfortable with auhtoritarian governments" than non-Chinese?
                   That has got to be one of the fucking dumbest things on the
                   motd all week.  I won't even go into the racism thing beyond
                   the simple mention of the obvious.
        \_ The future is always in our interests today.  Vision.
        \_ Well, Mao kicked our ass at the very outset.
           See Korea, North & South
           \_ as a Korean, I'd have to say "Fuck Mao!"
           \_ No, we didn't fight the real war we could have.  It was politcal
              stupidity, not military inability.  Pick up a book sometime.
              \_ Politics is part of waging war.  Pick up a book sometime.
                 \_ Twist in the wind, baby.  Keep twisting those words.  One
                    day you'll meet someone dumb enough to believe you.
              \_ We can win the Korean war.  We can crush Mao by nuking
                 China.  However there is no way we can liberate China
                 from Mao for KMT at that time.  The support for CCP is
                 too high at that point in time, and it would be like
                 10 Vietnams.
                 \_ Actually when Chiang had the advantage in 1947,
                  Stilwell and Marshall pressured Chiang to compromise
                  with Mao, giving the Communists much needed time to
                  build up their forces. Had Chiang kept pressing at
                  that time, who knows.
                 \_ Didn't need to free China from Mao but still could have
                    had a full and complete military victory in Korea.
                    \_ Not if the Ruskies get dragged in.
                        \_ Or space aliens from the planet Nemik, but that's
                           about equally likely.
                           \_ Why is it not likely?  Russia and Commie
                              China are on good terms then, and Russia
                              is an ally of North Korea too.  It would
                              be a huge loss of credibility for the
                              Ruskies if they let their two running
                              dogs be defeated.
                                \_ Russia & China allies? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAA!!!
                                   Don't be a ditzoid.  Only in the last 3-6
                                   months have they even begun to start to
                                   pretend to not hate each other.  No one was
                                   launching nukes over Korea.  That's the
                                   second dumbest thing on the motd all week.
                                   \_ Really?  I thought MacArthur wanted to
                                      do just that (launching nukes).  You can
                                      laugh as hard as you want, but it would
                                      not cover up your ignorance.
                                        \_ He wanted to nuke the Chinese.  The
                                           Russians hated the Chinese and still
                                           do.  Why exactly would the Russians
                                           risk total destruction because we
                                           nuked their hated neighbor?  You are
                                           the ignorant one.  The idea that the
                                           Russians would risk everything to
                                           help their post-nuked enemy is so
                                           wildly ridiculous that I feel you
                                           must be trolling me.  -been trolled
                                           \_ Very simple, if the Russians
                                              let North Korean fall, and then
                                              let Red China fall, they may as
                                              well give up communism and
                                              disassemble the USSR there and
                                              then, rather then 50 years
                                              later.  It's called
                                              the USSR version of the dominoes
                                              \_ You made this up.  They don't
                                                 have their own version of the
                                                 domino theory.  Nice try
                                                 \_ They may not have a name
                                        for the theory, but it remains that
                                        they understood that to let North
                                        Korea and Commie China fall, they
                                        may as well disassemble the USSR
                                        and give up communism.  As much as
                                        they distrust Mao, a US supported
                                        Chiang-Kai-Shek China sharing
                                        the world's longest border with
                                        them would be much more disastrous
                                        for them.  You need to learn how
                                        to think from your adversary's point
                                        of view.  It's the first step out
                                        of idiotdom.
        \_ Don't fight a land war in Asia.
                \_ That's what nukes are for.
        \_ Don't pull out a gun unless you intend to shoot someone.
           Don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to kill them.
           If you dont have the resolve, then someone is going to
           wrestle that gun away from you, shove it up your ass and
           demonstrate the correct result.
           \_ USA! USA! USA!
              \_ corporate stooge.
                 \_ Huh?
              \_ It's that kind of blind USA chanting that gets this
                 country into wars it starts but cant finish.
                 \_ If Hanoi Jane and the rest of her Berkeley spawned ilk were
                    put in chains and electric chairs where all traitors
                    belong, it'd be less of a problem.
        \_  The problem with the U.S. fighting wars is that if one examines
            the historical record, public sentiment for wars that "drag out"
            too long are highly unpopular.  If Washington hadn't gotten
            lucky that one winter, the U.S. wouldn't exist because people
            were about to lay down their guns and quit.  Anti-war feelings
            were even strong in a popular war such as WWII.  And Vietnam...
            Vietnam was a war of attrition that required huge numbers of
            troops to fight a land campaign...and although the U.S. and
            South Vietnamese scored an overwhelming victory in the Tet
            offensive, the U.S. got fucked politically b/c to Americans,
            it never seemed that the war was going to end, even though
            we might've scored a military "victory" in a few years time.
            When the chips are down, Americans are only in as long as
            it looks like we're winning.
            \_ Uhm, I think the draft (forcing people to go and fight in a war
               against their will) had more to do with the unpopularity of the
               war than its perceived duration.  Also, you speak of lengthy
               wars being unpopular with Americans as though only Americans
               experience this, which is at best an inaccurate generalization.
            \_ Washington?  The "people were about to lay down their guns and
               quit" is not the public.  What the fuck are you talking about?
               This is a total lie.  The problem GW had is that his army was
               too small, inexperienced, ill equipped, and underfed to fight a
               real war with the local school yard bully much less a foreign
               super power.  There were no Clintonesque opinion polls being
               taken on an hourly basis or focus groups being used to determine
               if the fight should go on.  WWII?  Anti-war?  Are you fucking
               insane?  Have you ever met _anyone_ alive during that time in
               this country who wasn't a foreign agent?  Vietnam?  Sure, go
               ask Traitor Hanoi Jane why Americans were spitting on their own
               at the airports.
            \_ I think you're getting us confused with the French.
               USA is #1!  USA! USA! USA!
            \_ It's a matter of acceptable losses. If the PRC is willing
                to suffer any number of casualties to take Taiwan,
                and the USA isn't, then quite simply, the PRC will win.
                \_ 2 mil casualties suffered on the PRC side in Korean War
                   vs the 60K on the U.S. I think you can safely say they
                   are very much willing.
                \_ Win what?  Taiwan?  Doubt they can take Taiwan without us
                   directly interfering.  They lack the logistical support
                   required to move half a million+ men over the straight and
                   then to keep them supplied.  The only thing the PRC can do
                   to the US is nuke a few west coast cities (SF comes to mind
                   as a fantastic target).  The response with be to glass in
                   their entire population.  There won't be a PRC or anything
                   resembling civilization after that and they know it.  There
                   is *nothing* the PRC can do but rattle their sabers.
                   \_ The PRC has the ability to both move and supply the
                      troops necessary to conquer Taiwan. They do not have
                      the ability to do so in the face of the US Navy. So
                      the question is: will the US commit an act of war
                      against China in order to keep Taiwan free? It is
                      not a military question, as Taiwan is fully capable
                      of killing the few soldiers that would make it past
                      the Navy. Is it worth it to make our allies in Asia
                      feel comfortable and alienate the largest emerging
                      market in the world? Of course, China is thinking the
                      same thing, knowing that the attack if pointless if
                      we intervene. So it is in the US's best interest to
                      make it seem that we will, even though I believe that
                      Clinton would back down if pushed to the wall.
                      \_ Clinton will back down because he's a traitor and the
                         Chinese have already bought him off.  This has nothing
                         to with the will of the american people.  This is all
                         about Clinton's treason against this nation.
            \_ My point exactly...unless the U.S. is willing to go toe to toe
               with a country that has this fucking psycho "we will
               win at all costs" mentality, the U.S. will back down.
                \_ Clinton will back down because he's a traitor and a Chinese
                   stooge and his lack act of official cowardess and treason
                   will be to abandon Taiwan.
        \_ Three things:
           paper -
                   Without which, you would be going blind hand copying
                   texts on bulky and unwielding papyrus, performing self-
                   flagellation when you made an error, in a damp, dark
                   monastery.  That is, if you are part of the upper-class
                   intelligentsia.  If you are a poor illiterate serf ...
           gunpowder -
                   Without which, the civilized world will still be plagued
                   by cycles of nomadic expansions, with no answer for the
                   nomad's superiority in horsemanship and archery.
           compass -
                   Without which, America will still be populated by Indians,
                   which depending on one's point of view, may be a good or
                   bad thing.
           And these ungrateful pigs want to nuke us after exploiting and
           colonizing us for centuries!
        \_ Real summary: China has the military might to wear down and take
           over Taiwan if the US doesn't intercede.  Clinton, the traitor
           that he is, will sacrifice Taiwan to the Chinese for the sake of
           the children rather than pull a Kennedy/Cuban Missile Crisis on
           them and force them to back down.  Good bye democracy in Taiwan.
           Good bye US credibility to our allies anywhere in the world. Hello
           to the rest of the world taking advantage of the new depths of US
           weakness and inability to protect our allies or be taken seriously
           on anything for many years to come.  I'm voting for Bush, not
           because I'm a (R).  I'm not.  But because Gore is already dirtied
           with foreign money, most of it Chinese and will lead to 8 more
           years of treason in the Whitehouse.  I couldn't care less about
           the President fucking some pig girl in the Oval Office but
           Clinton/Gore's foreign policy, bought off with foreign money,
           is treasonous.  (The Russians have nothing to do with this thread
           and were a side issue full of mis-stated history and conjecture).
           \_ MOTHER RUSSIA WILL RULE YOU ALL!!@@@~!!!
           \_ Clinton is my hero!  The question is:  Are you better off
              now than you were 8 years ago?  Who told you Clinton will
              back down if commie China tries to bully Taiwan?  Clinton
              will give the commies a swift kick in the butt.  Who
              ordered the carrier battlegroup to sail close to Taiwan's
              shores and scare the red China bully when they started
              firing missiles into the sea?  Clinton is better than
              Bush (the father) when it comes to China.
              \_ I'm better of today than 8 yrs ago, but not because
                 of that COMMIE SOB Clinton. It was Reagan who restored
                 America's greatness and his policies are the ones that
                 are directly responsible for our prosperity. Clinton
                 fortunately was more interested in screwing around with
                 unattractive women than the economy and let Greenspan (a
                 Reagan appointee) keep the Reagan boom going. If it comes
                 to a armed Taiwan-RED CHINA conflict, Clinton will side
                 with his friends the RED CHINESE COMMIE SCUMSUCKERS and
                 will look the other way while democracy is stopped out.
                 We need a real KICK-ASS President like John McCain rather
                 than a ASS-SUCKER president like Clinton. Washington,
                 Lincoln, TR and Reagan would have dealt with the RED CHINESE
                 rather than being bought out by them like Clinton-Bore.
                 \_ Yeah, yeah, yeah.  The only thing Reagonomics did was
                    that even in today's good economy and ample tax
                    revenues, 25% of the federal budget goes into servicing
                    the national debt.  I sure would prefer to have that 25%
                    in my bank account instead.
1999/12/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/Security] UID:16982 Activity:very high
11/30   http://www.gn.apc.org/pmhp/ehippies/action/index.htm
        \_ death to the protesters.  We need martial law.  Every single
           protester on TV ended up being an unemployed laborer who basically
           wants us to pay $75 for a made-in-America Tickle Me Elmo.
           \_ The TV coverage was biased beyond belief.  You've been taken by
              the mass media.  Use your mind, not your TV remote.  The WTO is
              evil.  One-World Government is evil.  I don't hate you, but I do
              pity you.  --eyes open, TV off
              \_ PAT!  PAT!  PAT!  PAT FOR PRESIDENT!!!!  HE'LL SAVE US
                \_ Pat is an idiot.  I don't care about your job.  I care about
                   your air.
        \_ This is called a "Denial of service attack", not a
           "sit-in". Dont kid yourselves, this is bordering on
           illegal, if not actually illegal. The webpage
           owners are setting themselves up for
           "Incitement to commit a crime" or something. And
           personally, I hope they get arrested on those charges.
            \_ guess what, sit-ins are illegal too.  And if you see how it is
               set up it won't do anything unless tons of people participate
               \_ It would be far better to just have a petition, with
                  thousands of names. otherwise,it will beseen as
                  a few hundred people trying to interfere with "progress".
                  This is an artificial attempt to magnify the effect that
                  a few hundred people can have.
                  Because if it actually made thousands of people
                  actually "sign" their names, clinton would actually
                  \_ Are you really this stupid?  Do you know hte difference
                     between a sit-in and a petition?  Sheesh... kids.
        \_ They're making the dangerous assumption that the average Joe
           actually *cares* enough to turn on his WebTV and point it at a
           WTO Web site in the first place . . .
                \_ Who the hell do you think stopped the WTO today?  The
                   streets were packed with average Joes you cynical fuck nut.
                   \_ now THAT (unfortunately) will have an effect.
                      Killing the web site with a DOS attack, will
                        \_ I chose not to participate in the DOS.  It seemed
                           pointless.  I'm still opposed the WTO and in favor
                           of almost any protest opposing the WTO.
        \_ For what its worth the WTO is a serious issue, deserving alot
           more attention than its given in the media.  Whether the US
           should be in the WTO is questionable, and bringing China into
           the WTO would be a blunder.
           \_ WTO rules!  Don't turn US into inward-looking Ming dynasty
              China!  Unilateralism will make the US into a leader
              without followers!
                \_ shut up achoi
                   \_ Who's that?
                \_ Don't turn the US into a lackey of the One World Government.
                   By the people, for the people.  Not whatever tiny scrap of
                   empowerment the OWG _lets_ you have.  The WTO is evil.
        \_ Fuck the WTO, the UN, and all One World Government stupidity.
           \_ of course, this idea does not exclude the similar idea that
              the WTO rioters all deserve a swift kick to the head while
              being dunked in toilet water diarrhea.  Moron fuck-ups.
                \_ No.  They deserve to be honored as the heros they are.  The
                   anti-WTO protesters have a very clear idea of what's going
                   on.  If you looked up from your Quake3 once in a while and
                   looked around, you might also.  Death to the WTO and all
                   other One World Governemtn anti-people organisations.
                   \_ PAT!  PAT!  PAT!  PAT FOR PRESIDENT!!!  HE'LL SAVE US
                        \_ It's not about jobs.  It's about clean air and
1999/9/28-30 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:16613 Activity:low
9/28    If my passport is stolen while I am traveling in Europe what do I have
        to do besides reporting the incident to the local authorities and the
        US embassy in the country?  And, will I be able to quickly (like in a
        day or two) to get a temporary passport to continue on with my travel
        around continent or will my trip be screwed over?
        \_ I had mine stolen in Poland. It took three weeks to get a new
           passport and visa. Just don't let anyone steal the thing.
                \_ my friend got her passport stolen in Paris.  the experience
                        will probably
        \_ My mom got hers stolen in China.  Really messy situation.  You should
           be worried about whether you can get back to the US sometime soon.
           The bureaucracy you have to deal is going to take a long time if you
           don't know the right people.
                \_ Crime?!  In China?!  This would never happen.
1999/9/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:16562 Activity:very high
9/21    "The Chinese Red Cross said it would provide 827,000 yuan
         (US$100,000) in disaster aid and 500,000 yuan (US$60,500)
         in relief supplies [for Taiwan]"
        Is this a communist joke?
        \_ China is not as rich as the US you fucker, you can't weight
           everything in $ scale.
                \-at least they arent sending the people army to "help" --psb
        \_ why is the west so against what China do or say? Isn't the world
           Gene imagined in the star trek world a communist like society?
           the US want to be the super power, and it will do anything to
           convince its citizen what they did or say was right. Face it
           people, we don't have the greatest system in the world. Only
           in the US would teenagers use machine guns against classmates.
           \_ First off, anyone trying to make a Star Trek reference like
              this has got to be a troll.  That and the Chinglish grammar
              are big give aways.  With that understanding... The reason
              the US _is_ (not 'wants to be') the only super power is because
              the US _does_ have the greatest system in the world.  It is
              clearly _not_ perfect.  It _is_ the best, though.  There isn't
              another system on the planet now or ever in the past that could
              come even close to making a successful society like we have
              here.  The only ones that come even close have completely
              homogenous people ethnically and culturally.  Do I think gun
              toting teens is a good thing?  No.  Do I think that makes other
              countries better?  No.  You're looking at one miniscule aspect
              of any incredible complex culture and painting the whole thing
              with the same brush.  More people died at TS 10 years ago after
              the benevolent Chinese government rolled in the tanks than have
              died in US from angst ridden teenaged gun massacres in total.
              Can't have your cake and eat it too, unless you're a troll.
                \_ We do have a great system here, but its far from perfect.
                   We have a great economical system, but we don't have a
                   nearly as good criminal justice system. I've been living
                   in this country for nearly 15 years, I can tell you in
                   one simple word, its complely fucked up. Criminals are
                                    \_ By my count, that's 4 words.
                   simply not afraid of the law, even I am not afraid to
                   commit a crime. I'd think twice about the same if I am
                   into White.

                   in China. We have lawyers here that can turn Black
                   into White. People come here to get rich, they do not
                   come here for out great system. Instead of seeing every
                   other system in the world as inferior, maybe its time
                   you actually go to one, where you realize you can freely
                   wonder at night in any part of the city without fear of
                   being shot in the head by some drunk.
                   We have a great economical system, capitalism and
                   competition benefits us all. But out justice system
                   leaves too much to be desired. When US bombed the Chinese
                   embassy, how many US citizens were hurt in China? Can
                   you say the same if the situation were reversed? Riots,
                   pure act of violence, like in LA, are somehow justified.
                   I am not saying China has a great system, it too has much
                   to be desired, but certainly it is not as bad as most
                   media would want you to believe. Look at things from a
                   subjective point of view, or are we just too arrogent to
                   to admit any fault? When you have been in something for
                   too long, what is wrong becomes normal.
                   \_ Here's the mandatory cheap shot:  I'd also be afraid to
                      commit a crime in a totalitarian regime like China.  The
                      legal system here is quite flawed.  Easily granted.  I'd
                      rather have the system as it is and simply not walk naked
                      down the street at night with a $20 taped to each nipple,
                      than be able to safely do so and live in a totalitarian
                      society, such as China.  Our laws are perfectly good.
                      The problem is lack of enforcement, letting people out
                      early for no real reason, and the social ills that lead
                      to high crime in the first place.  I've not been to
                      China, but I've been to several other countries and the
                      homogenously "safe" fascist countries are simply boring
                      and backwater.  Even Europe is like the third world but
                      more dull and safer.  I'll keep my gun toting angry
                      teens.  You can have your safe walk at night.  You made
                      another comment about people coming her for money, not
                      for our system.  It's the system that makes the money.
                      Also, the *vast* and *overwhelming* majority of citizens
                      do not commit felony level crimes at any time in their
                      life.  Again, the whole country is painted with a single
                      brush in one color.
           \_ So the Star Trek crew is always wearing those red uniforms
              because it's an expression of their red commie-lovin, freedom-
              hatin tendencies?  Damn.  As for the whole teen-machine-gun
              thing, the reason it'd only happen in the US is because
              capitalism ensures our standard of living is *so* high that
              even disgruntled teenagers living in stagnant rural backwaters
              can afford high quality firearms!  Back in your backward country
              with its retrograde economic system, those wacky pissed-off kids
              have to use big heavy sticks or farm implements.  America: love
              it or leave it!
              \_ Fuck you all.  I'm moving to North Korea.  It's legal
              \_ Read into more about the world Star Trek is painting. It has
                 so much in common to the socialism/communism society I
                 learned in school. Or are we so afraid of the truth that
                 even the mentioning of communism is hated. You have been
                 taught Communism is bad, but do you _really_ know what it
                 is about? You don't.
                 \_ What makes you think we even like the Star Trek version of
                    a future 'utopia' anyway.  Its BOOOORING.  AS the 'evil
                    captain kirk' said in a ST parody on SNL: "GET A LIFE!"
                 \_ So the perfect future world of Star Trek is supposed to be
                    some kind of justification for current flawed Chinese
                    communism?  You're just as bad (and as believeable) as
                    those people who use Ayn Rand and _Atlas Shrugged_ as a
                    justification for how our lives would be *so* much better
                    if only we were ruled by handsome superintelligent
                    plutocrat industrialists with a taste for kinky sex.  You
                    remind me of my Ethnic Studies TA who continually proposed
                    communism as a solution to all of the world's problems --
                    and who, when questioned about the flaws and misery in
                    current communist systems, always answered that they were
                    due to the fact that those weren't *perfect*
                    implementations of communism -- once someone created a
                    *perfect* communist society, everyone would be happy and
                    no problems would exist.
           \_ Speaking of teens with guns, if you haven't seen it yet,
              http://www.newgrounds.com/pico/index.html kicks ASS!
           \_ Primary mission objective "Troll motd":  complete.
           \_ I just want to state right now, categorically and for the
              record, that I have absolutely *no* problems with Chinese
              communists.  Particularly if they happen to be hot female spies
              willing to trade sexual favors for industrial secrets.
              \_ "Uhm, yeah, I'll trade you this, uh, phasor technology for
                  a blow!!"
                  \_ That won't work, since the Chinese apparently *have*
                     phasors and teleporters and all that Star Trek stuff.
                     Please see above.
                     \_ Oh, hmm.  So they use credits in the Federa-- I mean
                        in China, too?  Or is it the version of ST where they
                        don't have or need money or crime because everyone is
                        happy and all provided for?  What technology could I
                        possibly provide to the Chinese spy chick if their
                        highly superior society is already 500+ years ahead of
                        of us poor barbarians?  Better condoms?
                        \_ Yup. China has specialized teleporters that beam
                           out the man's sperm from the woman's body before
                           it reaches the ovum.
           \_ http://www.spartacist.org
1999/8/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Computer/SW/Security] UID:16312 Activity:kinda low
8/13    Anyone seen this?  I wonder if we could determine if it's for real:
        I'm trying to find alternate sources of verification.   -brain
        \_ It's obviously a hoax.  No one is going to hand over $300m in gold
           because someone found a tablet.  It's ridiculous.
        \_ i"ve just decyphered it. The text tells of the location of
           the Ark of the Covenent
        \_ I saw a problem with the date, it says ROC year 1933, but
           there's no ROC year 1933.  Obviously, it's western year
           1933, which is ROC year 22.
           \_ Another problem is that the "Hua" character in "Chung Hua Min
              Kwo" (Republic of China) is in Simplified character which was
              not used in ROC and in present Taiwan.  Simplified character
              is only used by Communist China which was founded in 1949.
              -- yuen
        \_ I have discovered the solution to this problem, but the motd is
           too small to contain it.  -fermat
           \_  umm, okay, really I was asking, "I wonder if there are actual
               gold bars with valid encrypted data on them, and if so, what
               the encrypted message is."  The transaction detailed by the
               story is actually irrelevant, because, as you say, it's a
               sure bet that the account is no longer valid.     -brain
1999/5/12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:15797 Activity:nil
5/11    US officials have visited the Chinese embassy before at its current
        location, before they "bombed the wrong building", according to
1999/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:15789 Activity:insanely high
5/10    Outdated map my ass!
        \_ What is the greatest irony is that the epitome of war criminal
           of the 20th century since Hitler is accusing the U.S. of war
           crimes.  Deliberately killing people is a lot different than
           accidental ones (though both should be condemned).
           - anonymous
           \_ the greater irony is how we vilify so many other people and
              countries, when in fact the world probably hates US the most
              and we don't even care
           \_ I think the BIGGER irony is that when Japanese kill
              100k-300k people in Nanking is considered a war crime,
              yet when US toss atomic bombs upon civilians which kill
              100k-300k people in Japan is perfectly justified (ohh, I
              forgot, it save lives... whose lives again?).
           can't find the URL where I read this.)  Don't you think when an
              Base upon this logic, I conclude that if Serbia use
              air force instead of army do the ethnic cleansing, then
              it will not be considered as crime against humanity.
              \_The atomic bomb saved lots of Chinese, Malay, Vienamese,
                Indian, British, Australian, American, Korean lives.
                It may even have saved some Japanese lives.
                China did not invade Japan.  Japan did attack the US.
              a racist asshole who kills).
                Ideally, US should have demonstrated the atomic bomb
                on an uninhabited island as suggested by the late
                Berkeleyan Glenn Seaborg, among others.  But what do
                you expect?  You expect the Americans to initiate a
                lengthy diplomatic process to invite the Japanese
                militarists to an atomic bomb viewing party, and give
                them a few weeks to make up their minds, while the
                Japanese are killing, raping, torturing people, doing
                medical experiments on human beings, and sinking American
                \_ Actually, the US did just that, but the Japanese govt
                   declined.  But then so did the Soviet Union.  go figure.
           \_ Are you talking about Milosevic or the Chinese Communists?
              I would guess it's the Chinese Communists cause compared
              to Mao, Milosevic, though just as nasty, is still a small fry

              The problem is the Chinese do not believe in Nato's action
              against Yugoslavia, so they don't consider it just an
              accident.  They consider it collateral damage caused by
              an unjust war against Serbia.

              For me, I think the US has to interfere in Kosovo.
              What Milosevic is doing is a slap on the face of the US-led
              west.  If he is allowed a free rein, a huge question mark
              will be place on all the achievements of the 20th century
              against fascism and totalitarians.  Milosevic should be
              put on trial for ethnic cleansing (in short for being
              a racist asshole who kills).  Yes, a racist asshole is
              a racist asshole no matter where you are.
                \_ A huge quesion mark to join Guatemala, Nicaragua,
                Chile, Panama, Granada, Vietnam, ...
                U.S. Corporations DEMAND dictatorships, death squads,
                and genocide.  It's called "STABILITY".

        \_ obviously it's a serious blunder.  imagine what would have
           happened if it was the russian embassy that was targeted.
           the matter must be investigated thoroughly, including the
           possibility of sabotage at lower-level decision makings.
           i predict that in the end, heads will roll.  -- anonymous
        \_ According to a Chinese official, some US official have already
           attended events at that Chinese embessy during the past few years
           after the embessy was moved to its current location.  (Sorry, I
           can't find the URL where I read this.)  Don't you think when a
           US official has a chance to enter a foreign embessy, one of his
           jobs is to scout the building?  And now they still can't even
           get the address right?
                \_ Amazingly enough, the millions of people who can be called
                   "US officials" don't all communicate with each other.  The
                   diplomats who visited the Chinese embassy are not the
                   military leaders who decide what/where to bomb, and
                   probably assumed the multi-trillion dollar defense budget
                   included buying up-to-date maps for the milittary leaders.

        \_ How come that at the same time they have detailed satellite
           photos of ethnic-cleansings, they have outdated targeting maps?!
           \_ Technology can make up for only so much human stupidity.
              One might say that technology can even magnify the impact
              of stupidity. --Jon
        \_ It's a dumb mistake. Dumb mistakes almost always happen
           during war.  There is simply no good reason for US to
           intentionally bomb China's embassy, embarassing itself the
           world over.  Twisted theories about provoking China to start
           a war just doesn't hold well.  If they can cut an Italian
           ski lift cable, they can bomb a Chinese embassy.  By the
           way, dumb mistates are not limited to the US.
           As for China, it should stop fanning nationalistic and anti-
           US sentiments.  That would be another dumb mistake.  After
                   \_ Not that apologies from Clinton really mean much. I
                      doubt that people internationally are taking him
           all the US has already apologized.
        \_ Sorry, you are wrong.  Clinton used the word "regret" instead
           of apology.  Regret can be "I regret not bombing Beijing at the
           same time so that no one will voice out."  Also, verbal regret
           is different from written apology.
                \_ Maybe you should watch/listen to/read the news.  He
                   sent a written apology yesterday.
                   \_ Who in his or her right mind believes a Clintonian
                      apology?  Besides, Beijing wants to relieve the
                      tension on the 10th anniversary of Tienanmen.  The
                      bombing gave them a convenient excuse.  Anyway, now
                      they're finally airing the apologies.  Think anyone
                      will believe Clinton?
                      \_ What do you mean about believing and not believing?
                         It's irrelevant in any case.
                         Clinton is the elected President of the United States.
                         He still is the representative for the United States,
                         and he has apologized.  What more do you want?
                         Lives lost cannot be brought back.  Compensation?
                         Sure.  A dumb mistake should not change US policy
                         on Kosovo.  If they believed they should have
                         intervened in Kosovo before, they should continue
                         to do so.
1999/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:15785 Activity:very high
5/10    I just heard the Chinese ambassador on the News Hour.  He seemed
        to be a complete whacko.  Was he just playing games for political
        reasons, or is the Chinese culture so different than ours that I
        can't understand him?
        \_ Do you feel that rough beast slouching towards Bethlehem to
           be born?
        \_ Chinamen are brain damaged from being upsidedown all day (that's
           what you get for living on the other side of the world - sure am
           glad we live on top)
           \_ racist asshole
           \_ racist asshole (and yes, for some reason, it's getting bigger,
                                the arsehole that is)
            \_ NUKE CANADA
           \_ I am wondering if you have any basic knowledge of Science.
              Are you from Cal?  We are living upsidedown all the day if u
              consider Asia is the top side.  How can you tell which side
              is the top when the globe is symmetric?  Take Physics classes
              if you are still in doubt.
              \_ hello?  are your really this stupid?
        \_ Dan Quayle
1999/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:15776 Activity:very high
5/10    Stop Bombing.  Stop Bombing.  US government should apologize and
        pay for the damage of the bombing of Chinese Ambassador.  Would
        you believe in the Army anymore if they can made such error?
        One day your home will be bombed because they have receive info
        that your home have 1 tons of explosives.
        \_ I think it's time we NUKE china.  Communist bastards should
           die anyway.
           \_ racist asshole.
        \_ From what I've read, Clinton has apologized, but the Chinese
        \_ They didn't PROMISED anything on paying the damage.  And, do you
        know that each bombing is needed to be approved by several stages.
        No one find out the big fault.  It seems to me that the bombing is
        well planned and targeted to Chinese Ambassador.  4 death and more
        than 20 injury, remember.  You know where is the Chinese Ambassador
        if you get a local map!  And the building is easily distinguished
        from other since it is a famous landmark.
           government hasn't acknowledged it. Nor have they allowed the
           chinese protestors to get wind of the apology.
           \_ Does age of a building related to whether its a landmark or not?
           The building can be distinguished from the top easily since
           the roof is made of Marble.  The bombing team need to recognized
           the building from top, i bet.  Why can 3 bomb hit the same target
           if it the target is wrong??
        \_ They have already apologized repeatedly, for all it's worth.
           Remember, NATO has dropped more than 15,000 bombs, many during
           demanding more concessions from everyone before they
           join the WTO.  And I don't see anyone in the Chinese
           government having to apologize for stealing all of our nuke
           secrets, or if you want to harp on interfering in a
           sovereign country's affairs, for invading Tibet/Vietnam,
           causing all kindsa trouble in the Pacific...self-righteous
           hypocritical morons.  Nice grammar, by the way.  -John
           nightfall, so they do have, for the most part, an incredible
           the secrets.   Doesn't American Spy on other countries at all?
           What is FBI then?
           rate of success.
        \_ They didn't PROMISED anything on paying the damage.  And, do
           you know that each bombing is needed to be approved by
           several stages.  No one find out the big fault.  It seems to
           me that the bombing is well planned and targeted to Chinese
           Ambassador.  4 death and more than 20 injury, remember.  You
           know where is the Chinese Ambassador if you get a local map!
           And the building is easily distinguished from other since it
           is a famous landmark.
           \_ can't be that famous of a landmark, it's only a few years
              \_ Does age of a building related to whether its a
                 landmark or not?  The building can be distinguished
                 from the top easily since the roof is made of Marble.
                 The bombing team need to recognized the building from
                 top, i bet.  Why can 3 bomb hit the same target if it
                 the target is wrong??
        \_ Well mr. Red China is so put upon, poor us, evil US, the
           Chinese are going to use this as the perfect reason for
           demanding more concessions from everyone before they join the
           WTO.  And I don't see anyone in the Chinese government having
           to apologize for stealing all of our nuke secrets, or if you
           want to harp on interfering in a sovereign country's affairs,
           for invading Tibet/Vietnam, causing all kindsa trouble in the
           Pacific...self-righteous hypocritical morons.  Nice grammar,
           by the way.  -John
           \_ Once again, Give us proof when and where did Chinese steal
              the secrets.   Doesn't American Spy on other countries at
                \_ FBI is for spying on ourselves.  Perhaps you're thinking
                   about the CIA.
              all?  What is FBI then?
        \_ What about when the Chinese government dropped missiles just
           outside of Taiwan a couple years back?  Didn't see any
           Chinese protest the aggression.  Hypocrites.
           \_ Does that missiles cause any death?  Remember the 4 deaths
              under NATO/US missiles.  Furthermore, Taiwan is still a
              part of China, as recognized by US.
        \_ Maybe the US wants another World War, so they bombed the
           Embassy on purpose.  Like Vietnam (Tonkin Gulf) and WWII
           (Pearl Harbor) and many other examples of standard State
           deception.  Think of the power, the population, and the
           social control benefits!!!
        \_ This is all a conspiracy to bring about the biblical armaggeddon
           3) It was the CIA's fault.
           4) China's going to use it for all that it's worth.
           5) If you were China wouldn't you, too?
        \_ 1) It was an accident. 2) It was an incredibly stupid accident.
           3) China's going to use it for all that it's worth.
           4) If you were China wouldn't you, too?
           \_ Chinese leadership is kind of dumb in this regard.  They
              exploit every little opportunity to gain small advantages,
              only to lose what is important - a good relationship with the US.
1998/12/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:15142 Activity:high
12/29   Chinese hackers caught stealing money from a Chinese bank.
        Sentenced to death.
        URL: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/17039.html
        Talk about unforgiving....
        \_ criminals needs to be punished, period. the reason criminals
           aren't afraid of the law in this country is the law protects
           them, one way or the other. China can learn everything about the
           west except their fraggin justice system.
           \_ So you think there's only one punishment for all crimes?  Death?
              Would you execute people for spitting on the side walk?
              \_ I'd execute people for posting inanities to the motd.
                \_ Starting with yourself?
1998/11/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:14893 Activity:high
11/3    aaron -- do you prefer sushi or dimsum? do you prefer jtown over
        china town? do you prefer Yaohan over Ranch 99?
        \_ it's prefer to, not prefer over
        \_ It's 99 Ranch, not Ranch 99
        \_ dimsum, never been to jtown much, never been to yaohan. are
           you too shy to ask what you really want to know? --aaron
           \_ I think he wants to find out if aaron prefers CHINESE chicks.
        \_ It's 99 Ranch, not Ranch 9
        \_ dimsum, never been to jtown much, never been to yaohan. ar
           you too shy to ask what you really want to know? --aaro
           \_ I think he wants to find out if aaron prefers ZINC chicks
1998/10/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:14751 Activity:high
10/7    Can you name all the Muslim countries on earth that is not at war
        with other countries?
        \_ Idiots!  All of you.  There answer is, there aren't any.
        \_ Racist pig.  Can you name all the white male dominated western
           countries that are not at war with other countries?
              Muslim hot-headed hypocrite bigots will rule the world!!!
                \_ Whitey will pay
                   \_ Never! Whitey will oppress forever! Whitey will beat
                      down the minority women with his oppressive white
                      male giant scaly penis of DOOM. White power! WHITE
                      POWER! -(fucker)
        \_ Try this: name all Judaeo-Christian countries that have engaged
           in military actions in the past 5 years, and then do the same for
           country of muslim, buddist, and atheist dispositions.
                \_ That's "secular", not atheist.  There's a difference.
                   \_ Read carefully.  I said disposition, not state religion.
                      US is disposed to Judae-Chiristianity.
                        \_ Ok then, name a country with an "atheist
                           disposition".  Are there any that exist that are
                           bigger than my living room?
                           \_ One can argue that China is a little bigger
                              than your living room, and the government has
                              a clear atheist disposition.  It is unfortunate
                              that the most powerful avowed atheists in the
                              world are totalitarians, just like the most
                              powerful theists used to be.  It provides some
                              ammunition for condemning atheism, though we
                              might retort with the Inquisition, just for
                              starters.  But power corrupts the theist and
                              atheist alike.  -- schoen
                                \_ One word for you, "Tibet".
                                \_ Am I the only one who wants to make little
                                   "nuke" stickers to put over the "free" part
                                   of those obnoxious free tibet bumper
                                \_ Actually, if you had lived in mainland
                                china for an extended period of time (I
                                had for 17 years), you will find life to
                                be more just and fair than, say, the US
                                30 years ago, and it is catching up fast.  As
                                for Tibet, if you are a Tibetan, you have
                                to be a Tibetan Buddhist, period.  But then
                                China has millsions of Muslims and Christians,
                                not to mention many more "real" buddhists and
                                Taoists.  This, however, does not change the
                                China's disposition as atheist.  Similarly,
                                the existence of atheists in US does not change
                                its desposition from being religious.
                                BTW, over the summer I visited regions in the
                                greater Tibet within China, (Tibetan activists
                                claim about 1/4 of China and large area in
                                south Asia as their territory) and found
                                Tibetans life to be much much better than
                                native americans in the US.
                                \_ I did not mean to say anything about the
                                   US v. China, or about Tibet.  I was just
                                   complaining that the Chinese atheists are
                                   also totalitarians, which they are.  Some
                                   American theist political types are also
                                   fairly totalitarian, and plenty of people
                                   can attest to how little I like the US
                                   government.  As an individualist, I may
                                   have different standards of "just and fair"
                                   than other people.  On power corrupting
                                   businesses, see ~schoen/power.txt. -- schoen
                                     \_ I'm flattered that you took the
                                        time to type up such a long document
                                        in an attempt to convince me of
                                        something that i can not be
                                        convinced of -- that Government
                                        (as opposed to a particular
                                        government) is intrinsically
                                        "immoral", as you say.
                                        \_ You're welcome, and I deny that
                                           you "can not be convinced of"
                                           that.  Someone deleted the "power
                                           corrupts businesses" comment, and
                                           that's an attempt at the response
                                           I would have made, were it not
                                           too long for the motd.  Note that
                                           this particular document isn't
                                           really an attempt to persuade you
                                           to be anti-statist, only to be
                                           pro-capitalist.  -- schoen
           of starvation from the u.s. sanctions?  albright claims it is
           worth it.  today is International Hunger Day.
        \_ Population control: if Family Planning won't do it, then let the
           military take a swipe at it.
                \_ Can you say Cambodia.
                \_ They've been doing it just fine for thousands of years.
                   The mistake was not letting them take it far enough.
                \_ Mother Nature's been doing a decent job as of late. Let's
                   give her a coupla years before we start nuking everyone.
                \_ Think of the alternative. 300 million more mouths to feed.
                   That's a *huge* deal. Not everyone can wave their magic
                   wand and conjure up food, land, etc. resources just like
                   that. China would have been a serious hellhole if they
                   weren't practicing coercive population control measures.
                   Human rights, shmuman rights. I'm an Amnesty International
                   member, so yeah, I guess I do care about that, but when
                   it comes down to it, China's actually being *responsible*
                   by trying to limit their growth. Can you imagine doing
                   anything like that in a US context? If Congress or the
                   President were to consider making a resolution merely
                   encouraging people to have no more than 2 kids, he/they
                   would get shot down in a second. Coercive or not, China's
                   policies have worked, and the world is better off for it.
        \_ Try twisting your head around wildly while thinking of the number
           of the number of countries that continually increase the amount of
           home-grown tomatoes each year.  Then hop-up-and-down on one foot,
           pat your head with your left hand, rub your belly with the right,
           and do your best to name countries that begin with the letter 'W'.
           \_ Waco?
        \_ Malaysia
                \_ They're at odds with Singapore, but it's more of
                   a Malay vs Chinese thing than Islam.
                  \_ They've got their differences with Singapore, but
                     I'd hardly call it a war (see orig. question).
        \_ have you ever considered the children in iraq who are dying
           of starvation from the brutal sanctions?  albright claims
           it is worth it.  today is International Hunger Day.
           \_ Kill em all, let God sort em out! (or is it Allah?)
           \_ I consider them next generation's anti-American terrorists.
              Better to kill them now when it's easy.
              \_ saying that all iraqis are terrorists is like saying that
                 all eecs majors are nerds...oh wait, bad example.
              \_ You're a funny man. 150,000 dead children cracks me up every
                \_ Hey, me too!  Cracks me up every time!
                \_ It's not 150,000 dead children.  It's 575,000
                   dead children.
                   \_ It's not 575,000 dead children.  It's 3,575,000
                      dead children.
                        \_ That's all?  3.5m terrorists dead, how many to go?
                           \_ Fuck you.
                              \_ are you cute?
                        \_ Better 3.5M of them than 1 of us.
                          \_ I'd trade our serial killers for their terrorists
                             at a 1:3.5m ratio.
        \_ People suck -- Nuke the entire planet, and give the cockroaches
           a chance.
1998/8/3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:14422 Activity:high
8/3     http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/9785
        \_ Are you sure these women are chinese?  They look
           kind of dark.  Maybe they were indonesian women.
           \_ I came from China, and there the shade of skin colour
              of people vary over a large range, depending on geographical,
              occupational, as well as genetic factors.
           \_ Most of the Indonesian you met in the U.S. are ethnic Chinese.
              They consider themselves Indonesian but their government does
              not and designate their I.D. card with a note so that they can
              be easily singled out.  Their admission to higher education
              is severely restricted so most of those who wants to pursue it
              has to go oversea.  They are also essentially barred from
              is severely restricted so most of those who want to pursue it
              have to go oversea.  They are also essentially barred from
              joining civil service and military and almost anything beside
1998/7/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:14313 Activity:high
7/10  See Lethal Weapon 4 ! See Jet Li beat up Mel Gibson at least once
      (though, unfortunately, Jet Li plays a bad guy and, of course,
       thus has to lose at the end.)
        \_ Asian guys always lose at the end. This is an white country.
           WHITE POWER!!
           \_ Print your name so we can flame your racist ass.
           \_ "This is AN white country."  Check your grammar you idiot.
           \_ Not in Hong Kong movies :)
1998/7/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:14310 Activity:high
        \_ Jacky Chan (aka SuperCop) will arrest him any time.
           \_ And Chow Yun Fat will riddle him with bullets before
              he can lay a kick.
        \_ Keep yer chinky china town crap off the motd you yellow slants!
           \_ print your name so we can flame your racist ass.
           \_ Did someone set off illegal Chinese fireworks in your pants?
                \_ Chinese are illegal?  Then why do we show their movies?
                   \_ just the fireworks.
                   \_ Legalize Haw Flakes!
                   \_ Legalize Chinese Interns, too.
           \_ I never thought that Soda is that racist.
                \_ Soda is not - the machine has no clue about races.
                   Soda users are widely varied however, and some are racist.
                        \_ I agree!!!  Negroes are the best!!!
                           \_  West Siiide!
                             \_ North Siiide is Hella cool.
1998/1/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:13567 Activity:high
1/26    http://www.lindatripp.com
        \_ The king of Persia has hundreds of women around him. The prince
           of India has a very nice harem. The emperor of China has more
                                                \_ "has"? china hasn't had
                                                   an emperor for a long
                                                   time. --aaron
           women than the number of students in Berkeley. And I'm sure Sadam
           has a very nice private chamber too. What's wrong with the
           president of the greatest power in the world sleeping with a
           couple of interns?
           \_ they are ugly.  that's the problem.  thank you for your time.
        \_ The countries you named are all fucked up.  Thank God (or whoever)
           this country isn't yet that fucked up.
                \_ I think Bill should do as he pleases (Clinton and Gates)
                        \_ I agree, just not while representing my country to
                           the world as my President and leader.  Gates is
                           welcome to do whatever he pleases within the law.
                           Clinton must adhere to a higher standard while in
                                \_ but king, prince, emperor & sadam represent
                                    their countries and still do c00l things
                                   that most men dream of doing
                                        \__Go live in China or Iraq if you love
                                        their systems so much.
                                        \_ Yup and their countries are all
                                           *seriously* fucked up, as are their
                                           leaders.  Being a real leader isn't
                                           about having a harem.  Don't fuck
                                           over my country so you can wave
                                           your penis around, Mr. President.
                                           You want cheap whorish sex, go hire
                                           some prostitutes.  Not on my time,
                                           or my dime, Bill.
1997/12/3 [Academia/Berkeley, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:32177 Activity:nil
12/1    Join the protest against UCB offering scholarship to Chinese
        dissident Wei
         - why would you be against?  you some kind of commie?
         \_ I have never figured out why U.S. schools give free
             education and so much money to foreign students.
                    This kind of activity should be banned by law.
             \_ Uh, this isn't any random student.  It's a politcal
         gesture.  It has zero effect on your financial aid or
         ability to get an education.
                    \_ I totally agree.  The US policy is causing too
                       much of a brain drain and money drain for other
                       countries.  Educating their youth for free for
                       12 years, only to have them go to a US university,
                       to drain another $100000 from their country for
                       school fees and living expenses, and then have
                       the now productive person work in the US and pay
                       US taxes to pay for the education of US kids.
                       What a deal!
          \_ How many get a spot that a real American (read:
             read human being) would have had otherwise?

                        \_ I don't know about that, but the last time I
                           checked, the software industry where there is
                           a huge concentration of foreign born engineers
                           is short of 200000 engineers, and the
                           unemployment rate is at an all time low.
                           I don't know about UC Berkeley but at a lot
                           of less prominent universities, the professors
                           just can't find enough US graduate students
                           willing to spend 5 years of hardship and low
                           pay to do research work.

             \_ How idiotic: U.S. universities would be a
         bunch of third-rate diploma mills were it not
          for European Jewish intellectuals (ie.,
         Einstein, for starters) fleeing the Nazis for
         the U.S. Would you deny Enstein a fellowship?
          \_ I suspect very few graduate students are
             fleeing political persecution.  What
             happened 50 years ago is irrelevant (kinda
             like your argument).  Its foreign countries
             that need the U.S.
             The amount of academic support given to foreign
             students is disgusting.  Hmmm, lets educate
             our competition so they can undermine
             U.S. based industries.  Lets educate
             foreign students for free when so many
             bright kids in America are deprived of a
             passable education.  Think about it a little

                           \_ Foreign born engineers and scientists is
                              one of the major strengths of US-based

                              As for US education, I thought it has improved
                              a great deal already.  In any case, it
                              already has one of the highest cost per
                              student.  Throwing more money at it is
                              probably not going to solve any ills that it
                              has.  Granted, some of the inner city schools
                              may have financial problems, but that is more
                              a problem of distribution.

        \_ Wei is one of the few interesting thinkers to have come
           out of China since the Cultural Revolution. That is,
           universities are vying for him because of his notable
        and influential scholarship. And I'm all for U.S. schools
           recruiting smart people, foreign or not.
         \_ Intellectuals and scholars OUT of UC Berkeley!  Down
         with the ivory towers! Sack all departments except for the
         athletic department! What do you think this is, a place
         of learning ?
         \_ This isn't about scholastic achievement or intellectualism.
            This is about some foreigner taking a spot a real American
            would have had.  Not just in the classroom but housing,
            jobs, and other resources.  What does this clown offer us
            in return?
          \_ How about scoring brownie points with the wealthy
             Asian donors that Chancellor Tien got to donate
              millions upon millions of dollars to the University,
             so that they want to donate even more?
             \_ You mean to build themselves an ugly building on
         campus to further their politcal agenda?
                   \_ This guy will write a book and will earn his US
                      publisher a few hundred thousand dollars in Taiwan
                      alone (if all you care is people taking your money).
        \_ I'm glad his publishers will make money.  I'm sure
           every crap book that Oprah features on her show makes
           money.  That doesn't mean the author belongs at
           Berkeley or any other decent school.

                      I don't know if this guy will succumb to the
                      disgraceful infighting of the Chinese exiles, but
                      he did spend 14 years in prison unlike the Tiananmen
                      square student leaders, so you have to give him the
                      benefit of the doubt.

                      Remember that the money for him is going to come
                      some Chinese/Far Eastern studies department/institute.
                      And his personal experience with the Chinese prison
                      system alone would probably bring more for the
                      department/institute than your typical graduate
                      student.  Now you may want to argue that Chinese/Far
                      Eastern studies are useless, but that's another
        \_ It's just a forum for further propaganda.

        \_ He won't be coming to UCB; he accepted a fellowship offered
           by Columbia University - android
         \_ Good.  Suckers.
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