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2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/17   

2013/4/18-5/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54660 Activity:nil
4/18    "MSNBC Host Blames NRA for 'Slow' Boston Investigation: 'In the
        Business of Helping Bombers Get Away With Their Crimes'"
        http://www.csua.org/u/zwf
        \_ The NRA has a lot to answer for.
        \_ Oh, for fuck's sake.  We don't put taggants in gunpowder because it
           interferes with the proper functioning of a round of ammuntion.
           With commercial explosives, taggants aren't a problem because the
           individual charges used are relatively large.  When you put them in
           a cartridge in the relatively tiny charge of smokeless powder, they
           disrupt orderly combustion.  Also, no one has come up with a way of
           getting them evenly distributed into charges that small.  The rounds
           end up being severely inconsistent.  You know who else opposes
           putting taggants in commercial gunpowder?  The Department of
           Defense, because they don't want any chance of it getting into
           their ammo, either.  Go on, blame the DoD for the slow Boston
           investigation.  Oh wait.  It's already over and went pretty damn
           fast.
2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/17   

2013/3/15-5/10 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54628 Activity:nil
3/15    It's not the NRA that's crazy, it is everyone else:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/as2gpk2
2013/2/18-3/26 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54608 Activity:nil
2/18    F U NRA:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/auazy6g (Sandy Hook Truthers)
        \_ http://preview.tinyurl.com/bqreg8d
           This shit makes me weep for America.
        \_ I didn't see any mention of the NRA on that page.  Did you mean "FU
           Crazy Conspiracy Theorists?"  Or do you have this really great
           theory about how this set of nuts is really a front for the NRA?
           \_ The NRA has been encouraging the lunatic fringe for a while now:
              http://preview.tinyurl.com/ac369ay
              \_ And the only thing in *that* article that even attempts to
                 connect the NRA to conspiracy theorists is the speculation
                 that Operation Fast and Furious might have been an
                 *intentional* colossal fuckup on the government's part.  Do
                 you have anything better?  You realize that Fast and Furious
                 was all about government employees violating just about every
                 gun control law we've got on the books, right?
                 \_ Look the NRA has been trying to stoke insane conspiracy
                    amongst its members for years. I am amazed you would try
                    to defend crap like this:
                    http://preview.tinyurl.com/7udytxw
                    You are deluded about Fast and Furious as well.
                    http://preview.tinyurl.com/7k2gzq5
                    - Former NRA member, will never give them anther dime.
                    \_ Okay, so the official investigation into Fast and
                       Furious is a sham, but the *other side* are
                       encouraging conspiracy theorists?  Here's a link to
                       what that investigation (by the House Committe on
                       Oversight & Government Reform) did the day after that
                       article came out:
                       http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/votes.html
                       They voted to hold your chief boy scout in contempt of
                       Congress for obstructing their investigation.
                       \_ There is a good reason that the House Republicans
                          have an approval rating of 15%.
                          \_ Oh, be fair.  The approval ratings are piss poor
                             for *all* of Congress, not just one side of the
                             aisle.
                             http://www.gallup.com/poll/160625/congress-approval-holding-steady.aspx
                             Gallup suggests the republicans are a few points
                             lower, and the Democrats a few points higher,
                             averaging out to 15% for all of them.  Here's a
                             few more polls:
                             http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html
                             Everyone hates Congress.
                             \_ Perhaps, but the POTUs doesn't have those kinds of
                                approval ratings. So maybe the chief boy scout is
                                doing the right thing. He is certainly more popular.
                                It takes a special kind of crazy to be a House
                                Republican these days.
                             \_ Perhaps, but the POTUs doesn't have those kind
                                of approval ratings. So maybe the chief boy
                                scout is doing the right thing. He is certainly
                                more popular. It takes a special kind of crazy
                                to be a House Republican these days.
                                \_ I was referring to Attorney General Eric
                                   Holder, not Obama.  Try to keep up.
                                   \_ I believe that the AG is part of the
                                      Executive Branch of government. If you
                                      have AG opinion polls, please do share.
                                      \_ The IRS is also part of the executive
                                         branch.  Do you believe that Obama's
                                         approval ratings are also an analog
                                         for public opinion of the IRS?
                                         \_ Good point. There is this:
                                            http://preview.tinyurl.com/6rw5b49
                                            Only 56% have even heard of F&F
                                            and only 43% of them believe that
                                            Congress is actually trying to do
                                            anything other than play politics.
                                            So about 25% think it is a good
                                            thing. Being held in contempt of
                                            Congress probably made Holter
                                            more popular, if anything, given
                                            the extremelely low approval of
                                            Congress.
2013/2/7-3/19 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54601 Activity:nil
2/7     This is how NRA can claim that it represents 4.5 million members.
        http://www.csua.org/u/z6r (news.yahoo.com)
        \_ Lots of local clubs (for all sorts of activities) require their
           members to join a national organization for legal and insurance
           purposes.  There's nothing sinister here.
2013/1/11-2/17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54578 Activity:nil
1/10    Yet another campus shooting incident: http://www.csua.org/u/yvw
        Thank you NRA.
           \_ I would thank them; it's a tough spot to be in: defending civil
        liberties in the wake of an event that has all the sheeple begging
        the government to take them away. (Not to mention the large number of
        morons vilifying you and those others who dissent).
        Unfortunately I'm still kind of annoyed at the armed gaurds comment,
        so I'll just engage sheep such as yourself instead.(See below) -phuqm
              \_ Yup, so much defending civil liberties as to tell the POTUS to
                 depot someone because that person is exercising his First
                 Amendment rights.
2012/12/20-2013/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54565 Activity:nil
12/20   "A story of the NRA's influence -- in 2 charts":
        http://www.csua.org/u/yqi
        That's why the NRA wins.
        \_ 3M is chump change for someone like Larry/Sergey/BillG, why don't
           they ever come out and just donate 3M? Cheap ass.
2012/12/18-2013/1/9 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:54562 Activity:nil
12/18   "NRA member Sen. Manchin says Newtown shooting should open assault
        weapons debate" http://www.csua.org/u/ypo
        '"The massacre of so many innocent children has changed -- has changed
        America. We've never seen this happen,"'  Was this guy in a cave during
        the Columbine High massacre?
        \_ Don't keep your hopes high, though.  It'll just be same-o same-o.
           "How the NRA Defeats National Tragedies"
           http://www.csua.org/u/ypq
2008/11/25-12/2 [Reference/Tax, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:52103 Activity:nil
11/25   Should churches be taxed?  Does freedom of religion mean that religion
        should be free as in beer?  --PeterM
        \_ Churches are non-profits. Should non-profits be taxed?
           \_ My contributions to the ACLU do not qualify for a tax break,
              why should contributions to a church qualify?
              \_ ACLU donations should be tax-deductible
                 http://www.aclu.org/supportaclu/taxdeductible/index.html
                 \_ Wish I had known that all these years...
           \_ In their capacity as a non-profit, they have certain rules to
              follow. In their capacity as a religious organization, they get
              a much better tax break and thus have more stringent rules to
              abide by. If they want to violate those rules, then they should
              not receive the special treatment they would be accorded if
              they obeyed the rules.
        \_ Should God be taxed?
2008/11/7-13 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:51880 Activity:nil
11/7    Why I'm not buying GOOG (special interest & conflict of interest):
        http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Google-Makes-First-Political-Contributions/story.aspx?guid={D98D82C9-98B9-4A0C-96F6-414DA5AEC365}
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44125
        http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/14/technology/google_democrats/index.htm
        \_ You know at this point I think GOOG in all honesty does not care
           even a tiny tiny tiny bit whether an individual investor wants
           to buy their stock.
2008/4/4-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:49669 Activity:nil
4/4     ACLU: Defending American's Enemies
        http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/32758.html
        \_ Why not ask the ACLU about it?
           http://aclu.org/safefree/detention/johnadams.html
2008/1/17-18 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:48961 Activity:kinda low
1/16    ACLU: Up is Down, Left is Right, Sex in Public is Private!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080116/ap_on_re_us/craig_appeal_1
        \_ You misattribute... MN Courts 30 years ago say it.  ACLU
           just uses the precedent in a legal argument.
        \_ What did the prosecutor claim as illegal?  The sex or the invitation
           to sex?
        \_ GOP: War is Peace
           \_ Hello hippie!!!
2007/8/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Tax, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:47511 Activity:nil
8/2     these personal plates are totally awesome
        http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/GWOT_apr07.jpg   Fight terrorism!
        http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/sp008.html  Choose life
        \_ http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/sp079.html  NRA
        \_ http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/sp138.html  Square & Round Dancers
        \_ http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/sp004.html  Adoption
        \_ http://www.tax.ok.gov/plates/sp006.html  Neuter your pets!
2007/5/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:46537 Activity:nil
5/6     The liberal case for the individual right to keep and bear arms:
        http://preview.tinyurl.com/2af36o (nytimes.com)
2007/4/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:46344 Activity:kinda low
4/17    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108
        Professor who taught a poetry class he was enrolled in:  Cho seemed
        "extraordinarily lonely -- the loneliest person I have ever met in my
        life"
        \_ What is the standard procedure for civilians when someone starts
           shooting, according to the gov? "Stay put, do what they want,
           don't fight back. Bend over." That's insane, that's the exact
           opposite of what they teach LE and military. They teach you to
           shoot back! Fight back when given a chance. Look for cover,
           move! Not to stand still and just let him shoot you.
        \_ They've all heard the Barbara Streisand (BS) that "if you resist
        \_ They've all heard the Barbra Streisand (BS) that "if you resist
           you stand a greater chance of getting hurt or killed." Or that
           "if you give them what they want they'll go away." What do you
           then do if "what they want" is your life!
        \_ I think most of the deaths happened in an enclosed space
           and the targets had no way of running away.  What do you
           think?
        \_ Gun control advocates state that if you have a gun it
           will most likely be used against you.. .too bad out of 32
           chances for that to happen it didn't happen .. no one
           took the gun away from the shooter.. but on 33 the gun
           did get turned against the shooter when he killed himself.
           \_ yeah, those goddamn cowardly stupid victims should've been
              NRA members and held civil disobedience against the stupid
              gun ban.
              You know, I think you guys have this right.  This is the
              perfect time to carve empty political points out of a
              tragedy.
              \_ Yes and the anti-gun folks aren't hammering away at this
                 from the get-go, right?  PKB.
2006/12/19 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:45472 Activity:nil
12/19   "Bus ride upsets black students"
        http://www.csua.org/u/hqz (http://www.mercurynews.com
        Troll: When they had to sit in the back, they complained (Rosa Parks).
        When they have to sit in the front, they complain (now).
2006/9/14-16 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:44377 Activity:high
9/14    Cheap-Shot Journalism by Thomas Sowell
        http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/cheap_shot_journalism.html
        \_ The financing of conservative think tanks is not coincidental;
           it is part of a conscious conservative strategy.  Of course
           Sowell wants to hide that fact.  -tom
           \_ And the financing of liberal think thanks is coincidental and
              random?  Ok.
              \_ No, it's not, but it's also miniscule compared to conservative
                 think tank funding.  I'm sure openness would benefit the
                 liberal side.  -tom
                 \_ Since they did an article posting the $$$s above the heads
                    of the conservatives it seems like there is openness.  You
                    say the liberal think tanks get miniscule funding but since
                    the cheap-shot article Sowell attacks doesn't provide those
                    $$$s we can't know.  We only have your word on it.  It
                    would have been nice if they had provided the $$$s for the
                    liberal think tanks as well but that didn't suit their
                    agenda.
                    \_ Is "liberals help unions" news?  -tom
                       \_ Strawman.  Care to try again?  How about telling us
                          how much unions have given to the left over the
                          years in money extracted from their members who have
                          no choice in the matter?  Nevermind, any abuse for
                          money and power is ok as long as it's your guys doing
                          it.
                          it.  Anyway, should I take it as conceding the point
                          since you ignored what Sowell was saying?
                          \_ What's the strawman?  Reporting that evangelical
                             Christians contribute to churches is not news,
                             and it's not the job of a newspaper to report on
                             it.  The link between big business and
                             pro-big-business think tanks is not common
                             knowledge and is newsworthy, unlike the link
                             between liberals and unions, which has been
                             a core part of liberal politics for a century.
                               -tom
                             \_ Sowell is talking about an article that puts
                                $$$ signs above the heads of conservatives
                                but sort of vaguely mentions in passing that
                                liberals do the same but doesn't mention any
                                or put up $$$.  The links between all these
                                orgs are common and public knowledge, but never
                                mind reality: so if the original article was
                                about liberal think tanks and there were $$$
                                over their heads and they vaguely mentioned
                                near the end that conservatives sort of kind
                                of do the same thing but didn't name any, you'd
                                be ok with that.  Your last line is funny.
                                There hasn't been a liberal in the modern sense
                                of the word for a century.  Liberals are a
                                product of the 60s/70s universities.  Unions
                                began as a product of the communist movement.
                                I hope you're not trying to lay claim to
                                communism = modern liberalism.
                                \_ The link between WalMart and conservative
                                   think tanks is common knowledge?  Do you
                                   have some evidence for that claim?
                                   As I said, newspapers report on news,
                                   and I think it would be silly to write
                                   a report that unions contribute to liberal
                                   causes, or liberals contribute to unions.
                                   If military contractors start contributing
                                   to liberal causes, I think that's newsworthy
                                   and would bear reporting.  -tom
2006/7/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:43799 Activity:nil
7/25    Big Brother is here to stay
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_re_us/phone_records_lawsuit
        \_ "He also said Terkel and the other plaintiffs in the lawsuit, which
            sought class-action status, had not shown that their own records
            had been provided to the government. As a result, they lacked
            standing to sue the government, he said."
           So, in order to sue to prevent AT&T handing over my records to the
           government in a super-secret and classified program, I must prove
           that AT&T handed over my records to the government in a super-
           secret program despite the fact that the government is not going to
           honor my FOIA requests until they've declassified this super-secret
           program. Brilliant!
           \_ How many fingers do you see?
              \_ There are FOUR lights!
                 \_ Hmmm, I can see we have some more work to do.
           \_ c.f. Orwell, Kafka.  Government hasn't come very far in 80 years.
2006/4/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:42733 Activity:nil
4/11    David Brin is a smart cookie:
        http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2006/03/choices-we-face.html
2006/2/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:41730 Activity:moderate
2/6     Democrats, not Republicans, want to grow the Army to far bigger:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060206/ap_on_go_pr_wh/budget_defense_6
        "His approach, which is opposed by many Democrats in Congress who
        believe the Army in particular is being stretched too thin and needs to
        get far bigger, ......"
        \_ I actually support the idea of bringing back the draft, although
           not on the scale seen in early decades (and certainly not with the
           unfair Vietnam-era deferments).  The currently professional
           military does not accurately reflect American society as a whole -
           generally it is more conservative, more Christian, more macho,
           and more working class than America is as a whole.  A fair draft
           would make the Army much more reflective of society as a whole,
           and probably less prone to form a distinct special interest
           "power bloc."  Not to mention the fact that more Americans
           would have a direct stake in American military action, either
           directly or through family ties.  --liberal
           \_ You want your military to be Politically Correct or to save your
              ass when The Bad Guys show up?  Who gives a shit if the army
              isn't quota perfect?  Few things are.  Is this some bizarre
              troll or do you really actually believe all that crap?
              \_ I'm completely serious.  We fought WWII with a military
                 made up of everyone.  Stop jerking your knees and think
                 \_ Uh.. Tuskegee Airmen?
                 about it for a second - I'm not talking about quotas.
                 The Founding Fathers had good reason to fear an entrenched
                 warrior class - see also Eisenhower's "military-industrial
                 complex" speech.
                 \_ The average soldier in the army is not what Eisenhower
                    was talking about.  You want to go back to WWII style
                    combat where they lose 5000+ men a day in every major
                    conflict and sometimes more?  What was so great about
                    that?  Today we have a highly mobile, all volunteer,
                    professional army much much smaller than WWII which kicked
                    the hell out of Sadam's WWII style draftee army in GW1
                    and GW2.  Morale, training, effectiveness, and every
                    other measure of army quality has never been higher.  I
                    don't think a draftee PC Army can *ever* approach the
                    quality armed forces we have today.  When I need a
                    plumber, I don't check to see if he's properly reflective
                    of the make up of the community.  I want to know that he's
                    the best plumber I can get for my dollar.  Seriously, go
                    look up the WWII loss totals for various battles.  WWI
                    was even worse and the deaths even more pointless.  (I'll
                    grant that GW2 isn't a 'fair' comparison since it was
                    really just the long awaited end of GW1 but Iraq still
                    had a number of well equiped units that got flattened
                    if they didn't flee).
                    \_ I'm not op or supporting a draft but GW and Afghnstn
                       are not good examples of our superior army over WWII.
                       We had overwhelming superiority in equipment and
                       air support, and the enemy knew it. That aspect is
                       not a draftee vs. nondraftee issue.
                       \_ The Soviets had overwhelming superiority in equipment
                          air support, numbers, and everything else, but still
                          got their asses handed to them in Afghanistan.  They
                          use draftees.  We don't.  We bombed the place and
                          used fast light highly motivated ground forces when
                          needed.  10 years later the Soviets retreated in
                          shame.  10 weeks later we owned the country.
                          Draftee armies just suck.  There's a good reason for
                          that if you think about it for 2 seconds.  When it
                          comes to protecting my skin, I'll take the
                          professionals who signed up for it over a much
                          larger group of enslaved walking targets who only
                          want to get home alive, thanks.  Maybe you know
                          something that the top military and civilians in
                          our government don't know.  Write a letter, maybe
                          they'll do a draft for you.  There's no way you're
                          going to convince anyone that a drafted army is
                          better than an all volunteer professional force.
                          \_ The Soviets were fighting against guerillas
                             armed with the latest US technology and with
                             US support. Afghanistan would be totally
                             different if, say, France was helping the
                             rebels. Even now, only the capital is truly
                             under control and the rest of the country is
                             as lawless as ever.
                             \_ France?  Huh?  The Soviets are the WWII army
                                you say you want.  I don't care who they were
                                fighting.  They got their asses kicked.  I gave
                                you a professional vs. draftee example.  I gave
                                you another WWII vs. volunteer example.  You're
                                just trolling now.  I can not 'create' a war
                                that will satisfy your ideal conflict.  Such an
                                event has never taken place and never will.
                                You have yet to show a place where draftees
                                came even close to beating professionals or
                                volunteers much less the 2 ass kicking examples
                                I gave of the opposite.  Good bye.
                                \_ How about the Hessians losing to the
                                   Americans in the Revolutionary War?
                                   Weren't mercenaries also at the root of
                                   the military problems of ancient Rome?
                                   Anyway, that is beside the point I was
                                   making about Afghanistan, which you ignored.
                          \_ Professional army was cool until US had to
                             occupy Iraq for the long term.  Now there isn't
                             enough manpower, and regimes like N. Korea and
                             Iran knows that US's hands are tied.  The
                             other problem with professional army is that
                             now that they have Iraq, they had trouble
                             getting new recruits.
                       \_ In one of the letters that Osama bin Ladin addressed
                          to the American people, he stated that his goal
                          was to bankrupt the United States.  It doesn't
                          really matter if we have overwhelming superiority
                          in equipment.  Our net gain from this war (and
                          from Vietnam) will be zero, if not negative.  And
                          we are just playing into the hands of Al Quaida....
                          \_ Math is good.  Compare the cost of GW2+Afghan+
                             DHS+everything-else to the federal budget.
                             AlQ hasn't done jack in the US since 9/11.  I'm
                             failing to see the failure in the current policy.
                                \_ The American economy is only doing well due
                                   to massive government stimulus.  If the
                                   Iranian Oil bourse starts chipping away at
                                   the dollar's current place as the
                                   reserve currency of the world, Asia will
                                   stop buying up all our debt and the economy
                                   will crumble.  We will no longer be able to
                                   inflate away our $8 trillion debt.
                                   \_ huh?  why would we not be able to
                                      inflate away our debt?  asia not buying
                                      our debt will only help, cause it
                                      causes dollar to fall and improves our
                                      exports and reduce trade decifit.  debt
                                      is in US dollar so it will stay constant
                                      (and become smaller relative to exports).
                                        \_ China's currency is pegged to ours.
                                           If they stop buying our debt we have
                                           to raise our interest rates.  A lot.
2006/2/2-6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:41674 Activity:moderate
2/3     Republican
        \_ SUV
           \_ How do Republicans relate to SUVs? I don't get it.
        \_ Conservative
        \_ NRA
        \_ Fish that sucks blood from inside your ass.
           \_ liberals from Yale talk from their ass.
        \_ Peace and Freedom!
           \_ Whigs!
              \_ Wife-swapping.
        \_ Religious.
        \_ Corrupt
        \_ EEEEEVVVVVVVUUUUUULLLLLLL!!!!!!  And they stole our "ic"!  PETTY!
           I love the motd.  In a single stroke so open mindedly dismissing
           about half the entire country with one word labels.
           \_ I think most of these have the politicians in mind, not
              necessarily the voters.
              \_ Not me.  I have contempt for the Republican politicians,
                 but not as much as for the voters.
              \_ Pft, as if.  <My party> is full of sweetness and light, but
                 we all know <opposition party> sucks and is evil.
           \_ You're a moron. Not republicans in general, just you.
              \_ *laugh* Thanks for the compliment.  I'm glad to have helped
                 you focus your wrath on specific individuals instead of
                 150,000,000 people you don't know.  Think of it as a growth
                 opportunity.
                 \_ You're overestimating, probably by 2x or more.
        \_ An unabashed terrorist that lies, abuses power, and ruins
           people's lives for personal gain under the cover of spreading
           "freedom" around the world
           \_ Ob: "<Myparty> is pristine and pure and goodness and light, but
              <Yourparty> is villainous and scummy and evil and corrupt and
              abusive".
2006/1/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:41588 Activity:kinda low
1/29    Hahaha--Congressional staffers change more than 1000 wikipedia
        entries:
        http://www.lowellsun.com/ci_3444567  -John
        \_ We're lucking so far all the damage is on the Republicans.  Think
           of all the filth the Republicans would sling if they discovered
           Wikipedia.
           \_ Good thing <opposite party> isn't as corrupt as we are,
              because they'd be even worse!
              \_ Yeah!  I hate <opposite party>!  They are evil and corrupt!
                 <Our party> is pure and pristine!  Go us!  If <our party>
                 isn't in control of all 3 branches, the country, nay! the
                 entire world is doomed!  Go <our party>!  I'm with you
                 brother/sister/entity!
        \_ It couldn't be possible that the 997 fixes not mentioned were
           improvements to the notoriously inaccurate wikipedia.
2006/1/6-9 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:41267 Activity:low
1/6     "The time has come that the American people know exactly what
        their Representatives are doing here in Washington. Are they
        feeding at the public trough, taking lobbyist-paid vacations,
        getting wined and dined by special interest groups? Or are they
        working hard to represent their constituents? The people, the
        American people, have a right to know." - Tom DeLay Nov 16, 1995
        \_ Well, now we know.
        \_ http://www.fec.gov/finance/disclosure/norindsea.shtml
           Plug in Abramoff. The next few months are going to be fun
           to watch.
        \_ We've always known.  Both parties have been sucking away at every
           opportunity for decades.  There is no news here.
           \_ # of donations from Abramoff to Dems: 0
              \_ 1) That's not what the radio reporter said, 2) there hasn't
                 been an investigation or final ruling, 3) if this was purely
                 a (R) problem, I'd expect the (D)'s to be jumping all over
                 it which they're not, 4) Abramoff isn't exactly the first
                 instance of payoffs and corruption in DC and I find it
                 intellectually dishonest that you would bring up a current
                 event which isn't fully fleshed out or known and compare it
                 to a blanket statement about previous decades as if this
                 was the only event of corruption ever seen.  Try again.  You
                 are a total idiot if you think (R) = evil and (D) = good.
                 They're all just people and people are what they are no
                 matter what little letter gets printed next to their name
                 on CNN.
                 \_  Neither party is really evil or good, but I think Bill
                     Frist for instance is quite simply an evil man.  I think
                     there are several people in Congress who do not believe
                     in freedom, and whose entire ideology comes from the desire
                     for power, particuarly theocratic power.  They're all
                     republicans.
                     \_ So there are no evil (D)'s huh?  Okey dokey!
                        \_ Name one who is as evil as Frist.
                           \_ Pretty much the entire Kennedy family but the
                              current senior Senator from MA in particular
                              has a special story.
                              \_ In a word, bullshit.  I don't think any
                                 Kennedy is a threat to the U.S. the way
                                 Frist is.  If that guy becomes president,
                                 I expect to see prison camps for political
                                 dissenters, elimination of the non-executive
                                 branches of government and bibical law within
                                 the first couple years, followed by however
                                 many years of dictatorship it takes for
                                 revolution, coup or war to bring it all down.
                                 We've already had a Kennedy in the whitehouse,
                                 and this is just not a threat from them.
                                 Just because you dislike them personally
                                 doesn't make them evil.
                                 \_ You are confusing your opinion with the
                                    historical fact.  You can expect the
                                    moon to be made of cheese.  It does not
                                    make it so.  The last Kennedy in the WH
                                    brought us to the very edge of nuclear
                                    war in a way no one else has.  Thanks.
                \_ The Democrats are jumping all over this. You are not
                   paying too much attention to the news.
                   \_ KOS isn't a news source.
2005/10/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:40284 Activity:nil
10/26   Rosa Parks died on Monday:
        http://tinyurl.com/8a9br
        \_ apple has a nice tribute to her on their web page.
           \_ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2005/10/rosaparks
        \_ "What are you staring at, Mr. President?"
           http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051025/480/ny13710250245
2005/9/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:39814 Activity:nil
9/22    Jimmy Carter says we need to show photo ID to vote.  ACLU says:
        "Photographic identification as a requirement for voting is
        antidemocratic and prevents people from exercising their fundamental
        right to vote whether proposed by the General Assembly of the state of
        Georgia or the Carter-Baker commission"
        http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/nation/12688495.htm
        \_ How does that follow?  (What the ACLU says)
           \_ Is this a matter of confusion between verification of right to
              vote with anonymous voting?
              \_ Yes, and also a question the circumstances of how and who
                 gets a verifable ID and how that ID will be used later on
                 (i.e. will it become akin to SSN or driver's license for
                 serices).
        \_ What does Jimmy Carter say about corporations run by directly
           partisan Republicans supplying black boxes for voting in our
           election?
2005/6/25 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:38301 Activity:nil
6/24    Media watchdog group hassled by police:
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1316683/posts
2005/5/27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:37862 Activity:nil
5/27    Republicanism at work.  Rick Santorum takes political donation from
        AccuWeather, pushes bill that would prevent National Weather Service
        from offerring for free the data that AccuWeather (amongst many others)
        tries to sell to people.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050527/ap_on_go_co/santorum_s_storm
        Very nice NWS site:
        http://www.nws.noaa.gov
        Compare with, for instance:
        http://weather.com
        \_ Nice troll. If you actually read the article you would note that
           there had been an existing standard for the past 14 years that would
           not allow the NWS to compete with private weather forecasting.
           Last I heard the Dems were still in power in congress in 1991.
           In addition, this rule survived through 8 years of Clinton.
           \_ Nice troll.  There was a rule change last year that allowed
              NWS to cover areas covered by industry, making this the new
              status quo.
              Santorum's bill would again restrict NWS services.
              \_ No shit sherlock. The point isn't that the rule expired,
                 dimwit, the point is that it isn't a "Republican plot"
                 as described by OP. If the rule was changed last year,
                 then it was changed under a Republican congress with a
                 Republican president at the helm, which again is completely
                 opposite of what the OP is saying.
        \_ Not Republicanism--scumbag politician bought by special interest at
           work.  R's and D's both have them.
           \_ That's funny, because when the Republicans were the minority, we
              kept hearing about how they were going to put an end to special
              interest politics.  Now it seems they've just replaced the
              Democratic interests with their own.
              \_ No argument there, and it pisses me off just as much as
                 it does you.  Probably more.
        \_ I found what looked like santorum in hotel room once. Yuck.
        \_ If it's run by a business it must be more efficient!
           Down with the socialist National Weather Service!
2005/4/19 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:37252 Activity:nil
4/18    ACLU smoking dope at border? Minutemen say photos show
        'legal observers' getting high
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43867
        \_ ACLU members smoking pot? This surprises you?
           Given the type of cases/clients the ACLU takes,
           it is apparent they have been smoking something
           for years.
2005/3/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:36587 Activity:high
3/8     I'm in the process of writing a book called a Liberal's Guide
        To Become A Good Conservative. I need a list of suggestions.
        I'll start but I need your help:
        \_ If you post the same link to the motd enough times, everyone will
           eventually agree with you.  If it starts to get deleted, just
           post the ip address.  No one will think of that, because it's
           super-sneaky.
        \_ Never admit a mistake, you don't want to show your weaknesses
        \_ Show people that you believe God. God Bless America.
        \_ Religion works all the time. God Bless America.
        \_ You are more important than anyone else, screw what other people
           think. Sometimes the right decision [for me] is not a popular one
        \_ There is only good and evil. You're either with us or against us.
        \_ Use simple phrases, like MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! BRING 'EM ON!!!
        \_ If something goes wrong, just point your finger at someone!
           Like "CIA mislead me! It's not my fault."
        \_ Accept that you're good and that everything else is Liberal Bias.
           There is good and evil. Mormon is good. Everything else is evil.
        \_ Cut taxes. Talk about God a lot. To set policy on a particular
           topic such as healthcare or energy, invite business leaders to
           tell you what to do.
        \_ This should be a really easy book to write. All you need is
           one page, and it should just read "remove head from ass".
           \_ According to Tom Holub, the motd is a bastion of conservativism.
              And he's right -- look at all the help this thread has gotten so
              quickly! -- ilyas
              \_ uh, when did I say this?  -tom
              \_ According to ilyas, motd is about him and tom holub. Just
                 look at these two dominating motd. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
                 \_ Have some compassion for ilyas. He seems to have a very
                    low self-esteem and he just needs acceptance. He is
                    unsure of himself and covers up his esteem with quick
                    snappy insults. And people like that usually have
                    a history of being ridiculed or not being able to
                    "fit in" in the physical world, so they find places that
                    are less painful to be in, like motd.
                    \_ I don't think ANYONE comes to the motd for acceptance.
                       I come here for the laughs mostly.  -- ilyas
                        \_ yet you do not deny that you have a low self-
                           esteem. You realise that people on motd usually
                           laugh AT you, not with you, yes?
                           \_ I admit everything!  The motd inquisition got me,
                              at last! -- ilyas
                              \_ Give him... the comfy chair!
        \_ Don't EVER defend the queer, you'll lose lots of allies.
        \_ Don't EVER bring up boring statistics like "87 Billion dollars in
           Iraq will give you 100,000 teachers for 20 years" unless you want
           to bore your audiences to death. BORING!!! Instead, talk about GOD.
        \_ If someone makes fun of your intelligence (Democrats), they are
           immoral people. Talk with your gun (and oh thanks, NRA!)
        \_ Liberty is not free, and is the historical exception not the
           rule.
           \_ Odd one stands out, dummy.
        \_ Do NOT get an intern to suck your dick, it'll piss off Jesus' people
        \_ Remove your brain and trust your government.
           \_ Funny, I always thought that was the liberal/socialist view.
           \_ Correction: "Don't trust the government unless it trusts God"
        \_ If you get enough people to say it, anything, no matter how patently
           false, will sound convincing.
2004/10/19 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:34210 Activity:nil
10/18   Man charged in vote fraud says NAACP paid in crack
        http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041018-103741-2380r.htm
        \_ Yay, Moonie Times Troll is back!
           \_ How about CNN bitch?
              [CNN url replaced with shortcut] http://csua.org/u/9jp
              \_ This makes no sense.  Is crack going for that cheap these days?
              \_ Wow.  A careful reading of this article would show you that
                 your original caption is hugely misleading.  Go Moonie Times
                 Troll Go!
                 \_ Only party sanctioned media outlets like CBS, NYTimes and
                    LATimes, oh and Democracy Now, right?  You are a inveterate
                    moron and an embarrassment to this school.  How the hell
                    did you get in?
                 \_ Right.  The NAACP didn't pay in crack.  The NAACP National
                    Voter Fund assistant Ohio director recruited a woman to
                    help with obtaining voter registration.  That woman paid
                    in crack.
2004/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:33314 Activity:nil
9/2     UCB.  EFF.  ACLU.  FSF.  Yer mom.  Who else?
        \_ FBI.  CIA.  ATF.  DHS.  OH MY!!!!!
           \_ Of course.  As a taxpayer, I already support those.
2004/6/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:30855 Activity:very high
6/16    Arch liberal 9th Circuit topples Mojave desert cross (WWI veterans
        memorial) Why don't we redo the crosses at Normandy and Arlington while
        we are at it.
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1155068/posts
        \_ We just swap out one God for another.
        \_ for the record, I'm an athiest jew and a liberal, and i think this is
           totally retarded.
        \_ for the record, I'm an atheist jew and a liberal, and i think this
           is totally retarded.  [80 columnd, spellingd]
           \_ I'm a liberal atheist and I think it's wrong for the government
              to put up or maintain a religiously-themed monument, but I don't
              see the constitutional imperitive to remove one.
              \_ so are you anti-cristmass trees on the town green also?
                 -laj
                 \_ Christmas trees are pagan/secular.  I'm anti-nativity
                    scenes.
                    \_ what about menorahs?
                       \_ No.  No general secular usage.  Maybe in another
                          generation they will be sufficiently stripped of
                          religious meaning.
                          \_ I hope not.  Keep your christmas time sales crap
                             to ruining your own culture.
        \_ Arlington doesn't have crosses.  Oh.  there is the Argonne cross.
        \_ Thanks for the chuckle. I love to watch the Freepers drool over
           themselves in anger.
           \_ It's better than watching them drool over themselves idly.
2004/5/21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:30347 Activity:high 55%like:30342
5/21    Bill Cosby gets it.  NAACP Mfume and Shaw do not.
        http://csua.org/u/7ee [newsday.com]> (shortened)
        \_ What a shock.  A self-made millionaire understands real life,but
           leaders of a group motivated to maintain victimhood dosen't.
        \_ I don't think Bill gets it, I think he is being arrogant.
           Everyone has their own way of talking in the right setting.
           You don't talk the same around your parents, as you do your
           friends, or at work.  There's nothing wrong with slang in the
           right setting.  Besides, once slang is accepted in the
           mainstream it no longer sounds ghetto.  Take for instance,
           "it's all good".  10 years ago you'd never hear White professionals
           utter that, but now it's quite common.  Cosby needs to get offof
           his high-horse, he sounds like a sell-out.
           \_ Slang is fine at home but not in business.  I don't care if
              people speak pidgin, ebonics, English, Spanish or Martian at
              home.  But use standard English if you want to interact withthe
              rest of US society.
              \_ Business is not some monolithic White Republican thing. Is
                 black slang appropriate if you are a rap A&R person? Of
                 course.
          \_  White people have white trash who we make fun of.  If
               you make fun of black trash it's racism.  Hoookay...
               (Or in this case, since Cosby is black he's an Uncle Tom)
                \_ If you're black and you make fun of black trash it's ok.
                   Generally, it's tacky to poke fun at race if it's not your
                   own.
                   \_ I'd say it's tacky (but fun) to make fun of your own race
                      but it's mean-spirited and possibly racist to make fun
                      of a different race.
        \_ AP's version of the evening differs from NewsDay and WorldNetDaily.
           Quelle shock!
           http://csua.org/u/7eb
           \_ Neither account claims to be comprehensive.  This is new?
              \_ you're right, it's not new that NewsDay takes quotes out
                 of context in a pathetic attempt to push their own agenda.
                 Hey, you want to post another link to an ice flow study
                 as "proof" against global warming?  -tom
                 \_ The AP version is shorter and has clearly cut out or
                    mischaracterized the less "PC" Cosby lines.  You've got it
                    all back asswards, as usual.
        \_ Tell us another one, Unka Tom!
2004/5/21 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:30342 Activity:high 55%like:30347
5/21    Bill Cosby gets it.  NAACP Mfume and Shaw do not.
        http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/ny-flmid3811870may21,0,7539165,print.story?coll=ny-entertainment-headlines
        \_ What a shock.  A self-made millionaire understands real life, but
           leaders of a group motivated to maintain victimhood dosen't.
        \_ I don't think Bill gets it, I think he is being arrogant.
           Everyone has their own way of talking in the right setting.
           You don't talk the same around your parents, as you do your
           friends, or at work.  There's nothing wrong with slang in the
           right setting.  Besides, once slang is accepted in the
           mainstream it no longer sounds ghetto.  Take for instance,
           "it's all good".  10 years ago you'd never hear White professionals
           utter that, but now it's quite common.  Cosby needs to get off of
           his high-horse, he sounds like a sell-out.
           \_ Slang is fine at home but not in business.  I don't care if
              people speak pidgin, ebonics, English, Spanish or Martian at
              home.  But use standard English if you want to interact with the
              rest of US society.
          \_  White people have white trash who we make fun of.  If
               you make fun of black trash it's racism.  Hoookay...
               (Or in this case, since Cosby is black he's an Uncle Tom)
        \_ AP's version of the evening differs from NewsDay and WorldNetDaily.
           Quelle shock!
           http://csua.org/u/7eb
           \_ Neither account claims to be comprehensive.  This is new?
        \_ Tell us another one, Unka Tom!
2004/2/12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:12223 Activity:very high 59%like:12209
2/11    Sierra Club anti-immigrant?
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/11/MNGRA4U14O1.DTL
        \_ If an environmental .org is serious about the environment then yes
           it makes sense to be anti-immigrant.  In fact it makes sense to be
           anti-human.  The SC is not a liberal .org, they're an environmental
           group.  Increasing population density in the U.S. will not in any
           way improve the environment here or elsewhere and is going to
           destroy a whole lot of it here and elsewhere.  Fewer people will
           directly lead to a cleaner/safer environment for all planets and
           animals.
           \_ aren't environmentalists typically liberals?
              \_ what is going on inside the SC right now is a fight between
                 true environmentalists who don't have a broader focus and
                 liberals for whom the environment is only one agenda item on
                 the list worth sacrificing for their greater liberal agenda.
                 I'm with the pure environmentalist crowd as we already have
                 enough generic liberals but no other serious orgs looking out
                 for the environment.
                 \_ I couldn't agree more.  It's important for any organization
                    like that to stay focused.  I'm going to take a wild guess
                    here and say I'll bet less than a quarter of any dollar
                    given to these jokers gets to any kind of conservation
                    project.  Now Bat Conservation International on the other
                    hand is, IMHO, a model of how things *should* be done.
                    http://www.batcon.org
                    I've been a contributor to and member of BCI for over 10
                    years, and I can't remember a single time when they seemed
                    politically motivated in anything beyond the very narrow
                    scope of their stated mission.
              \_ Grow up.
              \_ typically yes.  But it is not a prereq.  Personally I
                 consider myself a conservative libertarian environmentalist,
                 but there are people who know me who would argue with each
                 of those labels.
                 \_ Then at the very least you have a tension between human
                    rights, which is the libertarian pet peeve and
                    'environmental stuff', for which a principled resolution
                    should exist.  Most libertarians would say 'screw the
                    endangered wetland weed, humans are more important.'
                    Conservative libertarian makes more sense --
                    libertarian == rights, conservative == enforcement.
                    As far as the Sierra Club story, I heard they made some
                    sort of 'mutual coprosperity pact' with the Hispanic
                    Caucus (which makes them both unprincipled in my book).
                      -- ilyas
                 of those labels.
        \_ Every environmental issue is caused by human population growth.
2004/2/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:29782 Activity:very high 50%like:29780
2/4     Conservatives -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ a. keeping my money
           b. making more money
           \_ you are making conservatives sound very selfish
              \_ of course he is.  he isn't a conservative.  he's trolling.
        \_ 1. Making sure my money is spent how I want it to be spent.
           2. Reducing government services/intervention/size to those the
              government does best (e.g. defense)
           \_ I disagree with #1.  Tax money should be spent wisely and for
              what helps the nation, not on a new pool in your backyard.  Or
              better yet, my backyard.  --conservative
              \_ Maybe I feel strongly that a new pool helps the nation. I
                 think deciding what "helps the nation" is at the core of
                 this question and liberals have a different idea than
                 conservatives do. I don't think a lot of "helpful
                 government programs" help the nation.
                 \_ your feelings have nothing to do with it.  you won't be
                    able to demonstrate a new pool helps anyone but you.  I
                    agree that various social programs only destroy those
                    they are intended to help.
                    \_ How about the Interstate system? Are you opposed
                       to that, too?
                       \_ Built during the Commie Liberal Roosevelt
                          New Dealism era.
                       \_ The IState system improves commerce efficiency, so
                          no.  The welfare system destroys lives, so yes.
                          Various tax credits and penalties are used to
                          conduct government directed social engineering which
                          IMO is the biggest crime possible in this context.
                 \_ a new pool will increase overall GDP (by increasing
                    consumption, and the pool maker will also consume and
                    so on.. sort of like the multiplier effect.)  Thus, a
                    new pool might be helpful to society.
                    \_ no, because the final product has no value to society.
                       if the pool was purchased with his own money then what
                       you say would be true.  but when purchased with tax
                       dollars which otherwise would have had that multiplier
                       effect in the economy, they are first filtered through
                       the government waste system and what little is left is
                       then multiplied.
                       \_ So you are saying it's better to build a pool
                          than to give the money to the wasteful
                          government in the form of taxes. Exactly. If I
                          pay some laborers $20K to build my pool I think
                          I've done more for them than any government
                          program would have.
        \_ 1. Promote traditional family values.  Protect the family.
           2. Protection of Life and Liberty (from conception to natural
              death) and the pursuit of happiness.
           \_ Isn't racism a traditional family value?
              \_ hint: I'm not white, or a WASP.
              \_ yes, it is, in white, black, hispanic, asian, and just about
                 all other cultures.  would you prefer breaking up all
                 families because sometimes they do bad and stupid things?
                 \_ No. But I'm pointing out what a vague and meaningless term
                    "family values" is in politics. What, specifically, do you
                    expect politicians to do about family values? They like to
                    talk about it in elections but it sidesteps any debate over
                    actual policies. In short, it's a load of bullshit. And
                    historically speaking, liberals were the ones fighting for
                    the rights of women and minorities. Maybe nowadays, family
                    values is a euphemism for anti-gay, xtian fundamentalism.
                    \_ killing people (born and unborn) is bad.
                       What about those rights?  And affirmative action
                       is not the only way to help minorities.
        \_ 1.  Only allow the traditional sexual position.
           2.  Only adult can and must be killed.
           \_ Bad troll, no cookie.
        Liberals      -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ 1. Universal health care and education.
           \_ Provide a service with infinite costs like healthcare and you'll
              get everyone over-using it to the point that everyone gets near-
              zero care.  Education is a different story since the costs are
              limited and predictable with long term benefits for all of
              society.
           2. I'm very glad to see a good number of the candidates talk
           about fair trade and tax incentives to keep jobs here. If
           we're going to play in a "global" marketplace, all players
           must play fair. --scotsman
           \_ They're talking but once elected it'll be outsource as usual.
           \_ I'm being naive but I thought conservatives were free traders?
              \_ Did I say free?  Check your prescription. --scotsman
                 \_ what does fair mean exactly?  I'll raise my tariffs
                    to match yours?
                    \_ It means "I actually care about how you treat your
                       workers"
                       \_ how does this translate into policy?
        \_ Getting Bush out of office.
           \_ is this an "issue"?
              \_ only if you're an extremist leftist motd wacko.  the rest of
                 country is more concerned with jobs, healthcare, and defense
                 \_ I bet 1/3 of the Democratic party would disagree with
                    you. You might think that 10% of the country is extremist
                    left whackos, but you are starting to stretch the
                    definition a bit there. Many of them are more partisan
                    than leftist, anyway.
                    \_ you are right.  kind of like how all the
                       republicans want clinton out no matter what.
                       \_ "all" and "no matter what" are incorrect.
        \_ 1. Making sure the most helpless in society, especially
              children, are adequately taken care of.
              \_ isn't that what *PARENTS* are for?  who else?
                 \_ Parents have the first responsibility, but in many
                   -- ilyas
                    cases they fail to do their job. What then?
                    \_ Take the kids away and sterilise the parents.  There
                       are a lot of people who can't have kids and would take
                       much better care of them.  It Takes A Village, remember?
           2. Keeping the rights of the minority safe from being
              trampled on by the majority.
              \_ including free speech rights for those who disagree with
                 you, right?
                 \_ In my case, absolutely. I am an ACLU member.
                    \_ mmmmm, yeeaah... I like the concept of the ACLU and
                       what they claim to stand for but they don't always,
                       but overall I'm glad they're there than not at all.
                    \_ I was an ACLU member once.  Then they sold my name
                       to a bunch of mailing lists.
        \_ 1. Protection of civil liberties
           \_ Where were the Democrats during the Civil Rights movement, huh?
              Blocking Highschool doorways so black kids couldn't enter.
              \_ Didn't Johnson sign the Civil Right's Bill and send
                 federal troops to Alabama to desegregate the schools?
           2. Socialized Medicine
           \_ what is the conservative way of dealing with Medicine?
                - not a liberal
              \_ not going EU/Canadian style and destroying the system.
              \_ Let the free market handle it.
                  \_ how would the free market handle it?  What about those
                     who can't afford it?
                     \_ I believe there should be a minimal level of health
                        care provided to all citizens such as shots for kids,
                        and 911 emergency care but I don't think we should all
                        be paying for some of the things I've seen such as the
                        $250,000 spent so far just in medical costs to keep a
                        friend's near-brain dead child alive for the last 10
                        years.  And then there's the $150,000 or so spent on
                        other care.  The child is non-functional, unable to
                        speak at all, can almost crawl and doesn't recognise
                        her own mother from a hole in the ground.  None of this
                        ever should have been allowed to happen.  She should
                        have been allowed to die at birth and would have with-
                        out *amazing* amounts of top notch western medical
                        care.  How many kids could be helped with that $400k
                        who can actually *use* the help?
        \_ 1. Equal rights under the law, civil liberties.
           \_ Where were the Democrats when the Civil Rights Movement was
              taking the nation?  Blocking black kids from entering white
              high schools.
           2. Promoting the welfare of the masses and egalitarian society.
           \_ You mean taking money from one group and giving it to another
              who hasn't done anything to earn it.
        Moderates     -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ they care about nothing at all, that's what makes them moderates.
           \_ No, they just aren't fanatics. They don't have a pet agenda to
              push. So they listen to the yammering of both sides and want
              something in between.
              \_ They're mushy heads.  How can they have been awake for the
                 last however many years and still not have an opinion on so
                 many topics which will send this country down very different
                 paths in the years to come?  Mushy heads.
                 \_ They may like how things are or have views which don't
                    all neatly fall into one column or the other. Most things
                    end up being a compromise and therefore "moderate".
                    \_ The key concept of compromise is no one likes it.
                       I have no respect for people who prefer to compromise
                       all the time instead of making something happen.  Mushy
                       heads.  If they really believed in the status quo then
                       they should be opposing both sides.  They *do* have a
                       pet agenda if you're correct.  Since we don't see
                       your version of moderates raising their voices in
                       loud opposition to the extremes we must conclude they
                       really don't care and are just a bunch of Mushy Heads.

        Message from OP: I'm not trying to troll.  one of the reasons
        I have is to see whether the priorities of conservatives and
        liberals are very similar or very different.
        \_ Mr. OP, in my opinion the difference between conservatives and
           liberals isn't priorities (they are often the same), but
           that they view human rights differently.  The set of human
           rights for a liberal is different from the set of human rights
           for a conservative.  Hence the vehement opposition, etc.  Rights
           are pretty basic stuff.  -- ilyas
           \_ are there rights when it comes to economic issues?
              \_ Of course.  For instance, a liberal might think everyone
                 is entitled to healthcare.  In fact, he might think this
                 right trumps the property rights of others.  A conservative
                 thinks property rights are more important.  It is in the
                 specifics of what rights trump what other rights that the
                 whole disagreement is rooted.  In some sense, liberals and
                 conservatives want the same thing (unless they are evil,
                 or sleazy political scumbags) -- for people to be happy
                 productive and free.  But the devil's in the details.
                 I think the ordering of rights is not entirely subjective,
                 and there is one natural one that is 'right.'  But some
                 might say that's naive platonism.  -- ilyas
                 \_ we may have to make a distinction between the
                    hardliners of each side versus the more moderate
                    conservatives or liberals.
                    \_ Still, I think the difference is the ordering of
                       rights, and not something else.  -- ilyas
                       \_ This might be true for the difference between
                          big business conservatives and liberals, but
                          you have to read the bible to understand the
                          religious conservative types. They aren't really
                          interested in the concept of "rights" at all.
                          It is more a matter of salvation and saving souls
                          to them.
                          \_ Religious conservatives may not be interested
                             in the concept of rights, but their position
                             implicitly defines how they view rights.  For
                             instance, most religious conservatives have a
                             very restrictive view of rights when it comes
                             to homosexuality, same sex marriages/unions, etc.
                             Even if their philosophical position had been
                                \_ [ Hi, deleting other people's replies is
                                     not cool. ]
                                     \_ FU. I always use motdedit, unlike
                                        you apparently, who frequently
                                        overwrites my posts.
                             reached by reading the bible, and not thinking
                             about it a whole lot, it's still a position.
                             Some religious conservatives can give a
                             thoughtprovoking defense of their position, so
                             it's not easy to dismiss them.
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Are you agreeing me, or what? I am saying
                                the differences are a lot more complex than
                                just an "ordering of rights." Not everyone
                                agrees that being happy and free is the
                                goal of existence.
                                \_ Ordering rights is a lot more complex than
                                   you think.  In some sense, the whole of
                                   moral philosophy can be viewed as figuring
                                   out what human rights are, and how to
                                   order them.  I will go out on a limb here,
                                   and suggest than people who don't want
                                   others to be happy and free are bad people.
                                   I try not to talk to bad people.  -- ilyas
2003/12/10-11 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:11394 Activity:low
12/9    http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1537409.html
        NPR series on Brown vs Board.  This is one of the best series
        produced by Nina Totenberg.  I love NPR!
        \- But they didnt talk about how Earl Warren was a Stripper. --psb
           \_ Earl Warren wasn't a stripper! -ms
              \- You're so naive.
        \_ I always pictured her (Nina) as some young hottie journalist.
           Maybe she was one 15 years ago...
           \- Judy Woodruff >> N.T.
2003/10/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:10419 Activity:nil
10/1    Does anyone have any good urls to why Davis sucks? Democratic URLs are
        a plus. -reg'd dem.
        \_ what's the free east bay rag that has "savage love" in it?  Check

           their website, the recent issue has an article that talks a bit
           about my "favorite" example of Davis's incomptetance/criminality
           (the oracle bribe).  The funny thing is that although Davis is the
           worst govenor we have had in my lifetime, and is everything bad
           that people *think* is bad about republicans vis-a-vis big business.
           There is *nothing* that is known about him now that wasn't known
           before the last election when he was elected.
           \_ Simon was just a weak candidate and even so came close.
              \_ Yep. Simon was worse than weak. He outright lied in his
                 attacks against Davis. Any halfway decent candidate would've
                 beaten Davis. Blame the Repubs for that one.
        \_ From FTCR, more a consumer rights website, but still good stuff:
           http://www.ftcr.org/insurance/pr/pr003676.php3
           http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/utilities/nw/nw002082.php3
           Oh man, there are too many to list here. Just type "Davis" in
           the searchbar.
        \_ Is this a troll or are you serious?  What state have you been living
           in for the last few years?  The sky is still blue.
           \_ yes, this is serious. i see people bash davis mostly on car tax,
              electricity, and recently, drivers licenses for illaliens... i
              am looking more for the lies and big business links.
              \_ go see Davis and Oracle.  Davis and the prison unions.  Davis
                 and the teacher's union.  Davis and (insert special interest
                 here).  Anyway, you don't think the issues you came up with
                 are more than enough?  Are you a masochist?  How much more
                 abuse would you like to see inflicted on the citizens of
                 this once great state?
2003/6/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:28756 Activity:high
6/17    Baron says WMDs will be found:
        http://www.defectiveyeti.com/archives/000671.html
        \_ They'll be found if they have to manufacture them themselves!!
2003/1/29 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27230 Activity:very high
1/28    http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
        Go ahead and keep deleting it. I will keep putting it back.
        \_ the truth shall set you free. I find it more accurate to search
           for the word "israel" in the actual letter of the law.  As in here
           http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107bC8waW
           I've gone back a few years.  Israel always get more than Egypt
           despite what garbage alexf spews.   The truth shall set you
                        \_ care to elaborate on this reference? (and while
                           you're at it, give a functional url and sign
                           your name) -alexf
           free.
        \_ israel should try giving some of the money to the arabs.
2003/1/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:27173 Activity:moderate
1/21    Creepy Propaganda hits the Letters to the Editor pages--
        over and over again:
        http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7308
        \_ The ACLU has a (slightly) similar practice for auto-faxing
           your Senator / CongressMan.  I've used it several times when
           I agreed with what they were saying.
           \_ it's ok when the aclu does it.  it's not ok when the fascists
              do it.
              \_ No, it's creepy no matter who does it.  It's great for
                 cultists who have the same thoughts, but terrible for
                 expressing your own ideas.
        \_ Why do you find blast faxing creepy?  This isn't even news.  It
           isn't even news that lazy editors print the stuff.
        \_ Their followup: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7340
           \_ Absolutely brilliant.  Thnx, --op
2002/12/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:26808 Activity:insanely high
12/12   Pop quiz:
        President Bush today announced two actions.
        1. He will cut federal funds for winter heat assistance to the
        poorest people in America.
        2. He will permit faith-based groups to use federal funds to
        practice religious discrimination.
        For 10 points, which of these actions was compassionate and which
        action was conservative?
        For 5 points extra credit, would a faith-based group include Wiccans?
        \_ What's wrong with this?  He just wants you to pray before you
           get a lump of coal in your sock.
        \_ hey did you read that WSJ editorial about how
           there isn't sufficient public outrage on taxes because
           most really really poor people don't pay much taxes, percentage
           wise, humorously calling them "lucky duckies"?  that was great.
        \_ Pop quiz: 1) you're a leftist troll or 2) you're a trolling leftist.
           If you could at least get the news items right without tainting the
           descriptions with your personal bias maybe there'd be something to
           talk about.  You're just wasting bits like this.  If you were a
           conservative poster you'd already have been censored.
           \_ Actually the news items weren't biased in any way:
              http://tinyurl.com/3irw - heating cuts
              http://tinyurl.com/3is0 - faith-based groups - note the stuff
              about allowing discrimination
           \_ I would suspect neither.  He sounds more like a trolling
              Democrat.  There is no major leftist party in the United
              States.  Take a quick look at the leftist movement in Canada
              last decade if you need an accessable example.  For that
              matter, George W. Bush is not a conservative president.
              The Federal government will have expanded more in his two years
              that the entire eight years with Clinton once the Homeland
              Security bill goes into effect.
              \_ Do you consider HRC a standard party line Democrat?  She's
                 certainly a leftist.
                 \_ Uh huh. Who gave David Horowitz a csua account?
                    \_ You think she's *not* a leftist?
                       \_ Correct. Leftist is not a synonym for liberal,
                          except to the kooks. Look up the word "leftist"
                          in the dictionary or better yet, plug it into
                          a search engine and see what you get.
              \_ Correct!  Conservative and liberal no longer accurately
                 describe either of the two dominant parties.  We need
                 new, more descriptive labels. Vote now:
                 --                        evil, good:
                 --               miserly, shopaholic:
                 --          machiavellian, pollyanna: .
                 --               thieves, adulterers:
                 -- mother grabbers, grabbing mothers:
                 --                my side, your side:
                 --                 six, half a dozen: ..
        \_ No, you need to worship a real God. The Lord. Him. Wiccan? Don't
           they worship Satan? That will not do. It's not a real religion.
           \_ there are no real gods.
                \_ Except Tom. He's a Perl God.
                   \_ ???
              \_ no, some are integer, but most imaginary
           \_ "He seemed so certain about everything, didn't he? And yet
               none of his certainties was worth one hair of a woman's
               head. He wasn't even sure he was alive, because he was
               living like a dead man. Whereas it looked as if I was the
               one who'd come up emptyhanded. But I was sure about me,
               about everything, surer than he could ever be, sure of my
               life and sure of the death I had waiting for me. Yes, that
               was all I had. But at least I had as much of a hold on it as
               it had on me." --The Stranger, Albert Camus
               \_ Son, I say, son, quoting Camus?  You might as well just
                  bit of self-pride that we think we have will be gone
                  before death consumes us.
                  before death consumes us.  Have you tasted death, the
                  wave your ACLU membership card around too.
                  \_ I'm proud of the ACLU, I think defending our civil
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness.
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness, forebolding
                  and relentless.
                     liberties is important.
                     \_ so do i.  what does that have to do with the ACLU
                        though?  they don't defend *my* civil liberties,
                        but then i don't belong to some pc entitlement class.
                        \_ To which civil liberties are you referring?
                           \_ The right to burn a cross on my own front lawn.
                              \_ That's not the ACLU, pal.
                              \_ Why would you want to burn a cross on your
                                 front lawn?  Is that some kind of sexual
                                 fetish?
                     \_ Life is just like masturbation.  a constant,
                        uncontrollable search for temporal pleasures,
                        only to find disappointments, and in the end,
                        emptiness.
                  \_ What the hell do Camus and the ACLU have in common?
               \_ Hold?  Nah, we have no hold on anything.  We will all come
                  up empty-handed.  It is all emptiness.  Even the little
                  bit of pride and nonchalance that we think we have will be
                  gone before death consumes us.  Have you tasted death, the
                  feeling of life slowly but surely draining away?
                  There is no peace.  It is no rest.  There is no hope.
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness, foreboding
                  and relentlessly approaching.
                  \_ "when masturbation's lost its fun"
                     \_ You are right.  Life is just like masturbation
                        - a constant, uncontrollable search for temporal
                        pleasures, only to find disappointments, and in the
                        end, emptiness.
                        \_ You're not doing either correctly.
                           \_ It is not a matter of technique.  It is a
                              matter of essense.
2002/10/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:26295 Activity:nil
23.10   http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFreeMain.cfm
2002/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:25922 Activity:high
9/17    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63370,00.html
        And here's the party of division and hatred reaping what it has sown.
        It's a karma thing, kids.  If they had real policies and stood by them
        instead of knitting together pseudo coalitions of minorities glued
        together with other people's tax dollars maybe the party wouldn't be
        directionless and in such terrible shape today.
        [If you can't dispute it, DELETE IT!  restored]
2002/6/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:25143 Activity:moderate
6/18    I'm moving. Do I need to tell the IRS, DMV, etc? Is there any other
        agency I need to tell, like the FBI, etc?
        \_ mainly credit card bills, and if you are moving across State
           line, consider close bank accounts cuz each states has different
           law regulating banking which made my life relatively miserable.
           I have not figure out how to change address on subscribed magazine
           yet.
           Everything else, including Victoria Secret's catalog, will
           eventually find you without your intervention.
        \_ Bills, credit cards, IRS, DMV, INS, Post office, friends,
           banks, brokerages...
           \_ I don't get anything from the INS, is this necessary?
           \_ And magazine subscriptions and medical insurer.  Also your
              employer so that they'll mail the W-2 to the new address.
              \_ All of my magazines got the new address automatically after
                 I filled out the change of address at the post office.
           \_ You don't have to tell the IRS now. Tell them when you file.
           \_ And don't forget to have your gas/electric/phone etc turned off
              at your old place!
           \_ And cancel all the free catalogs and other junk mail at the old
              place.
              \_ as if this can be done.  They'll leave it as "Or Current
                 Resident".  Spammers and junk mailers suck.
                 \_ Worked for me.  When I moved into my current house, I used
                    to get three or four junk catalogs under the previous
                    tenants' names in one day.  I called them up one by one to
                    cancel, and I also wrote to http://www.dma.org using the previous
                    tenants' names as well as my name.  Now the junk catalogs
                    are down to about one a week.
                    \_ that's http://www.the-dma.org
                       \_ Oops.
        \_ Don't forget your probation officer.
           \_ You can't move without his permission anyway.
        \_ and, of course, the selective service, if you're still of draft age
           \_ What's the draft age now?
              \_ I believe it's still 18-25.  Got yer gun or are all you
                 America-last types going to flee the country?
                 \_ Are green card holders subject to draft?
                    \- they were, but at "low priority". but this does seem
                       a little pecular since i believe "service in a foreign
                       military" is one of the grounds on which you can lose
                       your citizenship. --psb
                    \_ Deportation and imprisonment.
                    \_ Even *non* green card holders can be subjected to the
                       draft, and hence, in many cases, are required to
                       register with selective service.  Otherwise, you may
                       have problem if and when you decide to get your green
                       card or citizenship.  Doesn't make too much sense to me.
                       It's like American expatriates in say Singapore being
                       required to be drafted when there is a war in Singapore.
                       On the other hand, I doubt many people are worried
                       about being drafted in the US given it's low probability
                       and low death rate.  Why not be a "patriot" when
                       so little is at risk.
                       \_ Yeah, my being a pacifist pales in comparison to
                          the prospect of being unpatriotic.
                \_ You talk the talk, but have you walked the walk?
        \_ Megan's law requires you to register with your local law enforcement
           agency.
           \_ heh
2002/5/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:24747 Activity:very high
5/7     Two airliner crashed in one day.  Oh my.
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20020507/ts_nm/tunisia_egypt_plane_dc
        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020507/ap_on_re_as/china_plane_crash
        \_ The end is near!
        \_ It is said that flying has fewer accidents per passenger mile than
           driving.  What about number of accidents per passenger trip?  Thx.

                \_ good luck finding anti-airline statistics. The airlines
                   do a better job on interpreting statistics than the NRA
                   and tobacco industries.
                   \_ The anti-gun crowd is even better at misinterpreting
                      or flat out inventing statistics.
5/7

    Implications of DMCA Anti-circumvention Rules for Research
    Dr. Pamela Samuelson
    SIMS, UC Berkeley

May 8 , 2002 4:00-5:00 p.m.
Hewlett Packard Auditorium, 306 Soda Hall
EECS Joint Colloquium Distinguished Lecture Series
        \_ mp3 whore!  Hundreds of gigs!  Free Warez!  Woo hoo!  divx! yes!
           \_ um, I've taken 2 classes with Samuelson, Law 276.1 (digital law)
              and SIMS 231 (IP Law).  She's good; she knows what she doesn't
              know, and sticks to teaching what she does know, and researches
              what she doesn't.  So open your mind you closed source fuck.
                \_ Closed source?  You're an idiot.  Open vs. Closed source has
                   nothing to do with copyright law, you moron.  In fact, if
                   you had the slightest clue you'd know the GPL _relies_ on
                   and _uses_ copyright law to protect GPL'd code.  Fucking
                   dumbshit stupid loudmouth moronic geek you should go and
                   ask her what the GPL is for starters and then you can come
                   back to the motd and beg forgiveness for being so stupid
                   and ignorant.
                   \_ You forgot to take your lithium today.
                        \_ Maybe but at least I know wtf I'm talking about.
                           \_ actually, you missed the whole point.  But
                              we expect this from the motd arguments.
                              \_ it would be good if we got rid of the motd.
                              \_ we also expect people to claim someone else
                                 missed the point without saying what point
                                 they were failing to get across and then
                                 blame the reader.  e190
2002/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:24158 Activity:high
3/19    Can somebody post some decent analysis of McCain's finance reform
        bill?Every article I read mentions loopholes, but what are they?
        \_ McCain's finance reform is meant to sink the NRA.
           \_ Corps will give soft money to non-party groups and unions,
              who will runs ads instead of the parties. And the
              unconstitutional ad ban will be overturned by the supremes.
              OR individuals can still give money to candidates, so if they
              lower the limit to $1 (though CFR raises to $5000), the CEO of
              BigOil who gave pol a dollar was still trying to by his vote
              and created "an appearance of impropriety." CFR is like
              trying to ban politics, cuz it's all in the eye of the spinner.
              But CFR should pass because it's reform and better than letting
              McConnell, et al. win. -republican for gov't financed elections
              \_ Government financed elections?  Hardly.  Who says who
                 qualifies for the millions of dollars it takes to get the
                 word out?  People with enough support?  How do you register
                 that support?  Petitions?  That costs money.  By not letting
                 the public participate in elections, it would be even harder
                 for a non-incumbent to get name recognition.  The last thing
                 we need is government financed elections.  What a nightmare.
                 -republican in favor of smaller government and 1st amendment
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:22490 Activity:high
9/15    Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson say that the abortionists, the
        ACLU and gays and lesbians are to blame for the WTC bombing:
        http://www.pfaw.org/news/press//2001-09-13.320.phtml
        \_ it is disgusting that at this time, he can think of nothing better
           than to push his own religious, bigoted agenda.  So much for
           American solidarity.  It's funny that both he and the anti-American
           Islamic fundamentalists say that the attack is a punishment from God.
           \_ hopefully this will whittle away further at their
              constituency
              \_ Never underestimate the power of stupid people. -geordan
                                            in large groups. _/
        \_ why read when you can hear it from the horses's asses?
           http://www.demonics.org/~brooke/falwell.mp3
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:22474 Activity:nil
9/15    Falwell blames the ACLU:
        http://www.monkey.org/~billfant/falwell.mp3
2000/12/22-23 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:20155 Activity:high
12/21   Why are people anti-union? Every human product is ambiguous, that
        doesn't mean we forbid ourselves from creation. Liquor is good
        (relaxation, thinning blood), liquor is bad (insert standard args).
        What it means is simple to state, but difficult to enact: we must
        be aware of both sides of the story, and relaize that both have
        merit.
           \_ Communism, socialism, naziism, totalitarianism and right wing
              fanatics are bad. They are evil. They have no redeeming
              qualities. There is no two sides to this story. Supressing
              the rights of the one in favor of the rights of the many is
              wrong. There is no two sides to that story. Get you head out
              of your arse.
              \_ Union != Communism.
                 Union != Socialism.
                 Union != Naziism.
                 Union != Totalitarianism.
                 Banning unions requires you ammend the constitution to
                 nullify the freedom of assembly. That is one of the
                 elements to communism, socialism, naziism, and
                 totalitarianism
        \_ As a concept I'm not opposed to unions.  I think people need to
           have a place to go to make sure things like worker safety are
           taken care of.  The reality is that unions today really only focus
           on themselves as a political entity and not worker safety, rights,
           or anything else unless worker benefits just happen to coincide with
           the betterment of the union.
        \_ Unions are based on socialistic principles about "collective"
           power and "workers" rights. These things are directly opposed
           to individual freedoms and the free market system.
        \_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
           and "corporate" rights.  These things are directly opposed to
           individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
           in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
              \_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
                 in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
                 long.
                 Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
                 made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
                 and its not because of the government. Its because
                 they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
                 to gain ground.
                 If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
                 I do.
           \_ Nah.  Unions are not necessarily bad.  Unions empower the
              individual against the collective power of big businesses.
              Critical to the health of democracies is the ability and
              freedom for individuals to form various organizations
              including religious organizations such as churches,
              professional organizations such as IEEE, recreational/
              hobby organizations such as your local Linsux chapter,
              and finally organizations like the Sierra Club or
              NRA and also labor unions.  These organizations give
              individuals support and a collective voice in the issues
              they care for.  The membership should be at will.
              Observe that dictators and authoritarian regimes hate
              these kind of organizations and will always try to
              destroy or control them.  The Walesa-led union was
              hated by the Polish communist regime back in the Soviet
              era, and the china commies hate the local churches and
              even the falungong.  Authoritarian and undemocratic
              Singapore does not allow unions except for a government-
              controlled one.  Without such organizations, the
              individual is isolated, and powerless, and subject to
              abuse and oppression by the only organization left -
              the government.  Unions help to balance the power of
              another type of organization that sometimes abuses
              the individual - i.e. big businesses.  Come to think
              of it, it is arguable that Singapore and present-day
              China are two countries when an authoritarian government
              and big businesses collude to abuse and exploit the
              individuals.
                     Big Business helps individuals generate _/
                     wealth. Unions don't help anyone generate
                     anything. Big Business is what powers the
                     countries prosperity, not Unions. Unions
                     leach the profits of Big Buiness. Business
                     free and unrestrained by bureaucrats and
                     union bosses is critical for the health
                     democracy, freedom, liberty, prosperity.
                     Unions seek to destroy what good Business
                     has created.
                     \_ Yes. Because we all know that unions
                        segments.   Thanks.
                        have a vested interest in destroying
                        good business. Pull you fucking head
                        out of your ass and grow a brain you
                        moron. Unions are a vehicle for
                        bargaining. Everyone bargains for
                        employment compensation, not just
                        UAW workers and other blue collar
                        workers. No shit, unions aren't
                        designed to generate profits the same
                        way water isn't used to fuel cars.
                        Maybe if looked "union" up in a
                        dictionary you'd understand. Unions are
                        guaranteed by the first ammendment. If
                        you're suggesting banning unions then
                        you certainly have no respect for our
                        democracy and freedom.
                     \_ Please don't break what I wrote into
                        segments.   Thanks.  I agree with you
                        that big business is great, generally
                        speaking.
        \_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
           and "corporate" rights.  These things are directly opposed to
           individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
           in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
              \_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
                 in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
                 long.
                 \_ Ah yes, the magical invisible hand of the market.  Do you
                    *ever* use your brain?  -tom
                 Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
                 made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
                 and its not because of the government. Its because
                 they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
                 to gain ground.
                 If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
                 I do.
              \_ they try to hurt scabs and that is anti-competitive.
                 \_ That's wrong and the people who practice such
                    should be shot. But that's not the premise of
                    unions or collective bargaining.
              \_ Membership in a Union is different than membership
                 in the IEEE or the NRA or a given religious institution.
                 1. In no industry is IEEE or NRA membership required
                    for getting or keeping your job. Try to be non
                    union in the automotive or trucking or teaching
                    industries and see how long you last. (They will
                    force you out or get you to join).
                    \_ Please don't compare IEEE to the NRA. There's
                       a stark difference in the practices in civility
                       and political influence between the two groups.
                       \_ sidenly i am wondering how many IEEE members are
                          in the NRA...Based on what ive seen i'll bet its
                          alot more than the average number for a random
                          group of people.
                          \_ Probably not. IEEE members are not the
                             "I love god and my family and go to church
                             with ma girlfriend every Sunday. On weekdays
                             my ma and pa come to ma school and watch
                             me play football cause I'm the star
                             quaterback. Then me and ma buds hop in my
                             Chevrolet and guy hunting on the weekends.
                             When I go to Texas A&M Iam going to go
                             join the Army ROTC and serve ma country and God.
                             Ma idol is George W. Bush. Because he
                             believes in family values." type people.
                             How many IEEE members do you know have the
                             Hank Hill personality and aspire to taking
                             over the family farm?
                       \_ The NRA doesn't advocate threatening
                          or maiming non-NRA members in times
                          of dispute. The IEEE doesn't either.
                          Unions do. That's the point.
                          \_ Some unions do, others don't.  That's
                             the point.
                 2. The IEEE and the NRA do not engage in activities
                    like strikes, picketing, mass violence. These are
                    anti-competitive terrorist measures designed to
                    exploit business owners.
                    \_ Union == organization that provide a means of
                       collective bargaining.
                       Union != terrorism
                       Union != strikes (sometimes they do but that's
                         not the premise)
                       Union != Mass violence
                       Everyone pickets. Republicans picket, democrats
                       picket, pro-lifers picket, pro-choicers picket,
                       hippies picket, anti-gays picket.
                       \_ The means of bargaining is terrorism,
                          strikers, mass violence. Union bosses
                          uses thier lazy bum union members to
                          incite violence against management and
                          customers so that management will pay
                          thier ransom quicker and all the Union
                          members can get back to sitting on thier
                          arses. Wonder why all the jobs are going
                          overseas? Its because most US workers
                          hate hard work, they all want to get paid
                          sitting around being idle. Business can't
                          afford this.
                          \_ I didn't see any violence in the United
                             Airlines union.
                             \_ which one.  pilots,flight attendants,
                 \_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
                                mechanics, etc have separate unions.
                                additionally, UAL flight attendants are
                                represented by a different union than say
                                Delta, for instance.
                 3. Union derived benefits for workers are like ransom
                    derived from hapless kidnap victims. The market
                    provides sufficient working conditions, Union
                    employees would prefer to sit on thier arses and
                    get paid rather than work, which is why they are
                    always striking.
                    \_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
                 Unions are a unholy menace to liberty and freedom
                 populated by lazy bums and lead by communists and
                 socialist who want to do away with the free market
                 in favor of state control of everything. They want
                 a world where every man is equal because every man
                 is a poor pathetic slob without hope. I prefer the
                 American dream, where every man is equal because
                 every man is rich with the hope of achieving all
                 that he wants.
        \_ Unions are bad because the mob tends to control them.
        Enuff said.
           \_ As opposed to presidential elections.
        \_ In a perfect world, Unions would form to empower the workers
           and make the workplaces more tolerable, and then they would
           dissolve until they were needed again.  In our world, unions
           form to solve problems, then their officers get used to the
           power they wield, and they refuse to dissolve the union,
           seeking instead to increase their power and influence.  More
           often than not, what we need are unions to depose the corrupt
           and corpulent unions that now exist.  --erikred
            \_ but of course none of the businesses are corrupt or coruplent.
                \_ Bingo!  Give that man a prize!
           \_ You've been watching too many movies. People don't like unions
              because the "traditional" union supported promotion and benefits
              by seniority as opposed to skill/performance. Think "tenure."
              Plus unions try to get the most from their employers which
              sometimes means they conflict. Most people would accept some
              pain to avoid conflict. A repo man spends his life getting
              into tense situations.
        \_ MORE! MORE! MORE!
2000/11/14 [Recreation/Computer, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:19773 Activity:high
11/14   Yes we're all tired of election crap but you can check out this:
        <DEAD>madison.hss.cmu.edu<DEAD>
        for a scientific approach to the palm beach question.
        \_ Perhaps, but this doesn't change the fact that recounting
           selected counties is bad practice designed to put Gore in
           the white house.
           \_ yeah. in fact the entire electoral process was bad practice
              designified to put gore in the white house.  -- junior
              \_ No. In order for the recount to be meaningful it must
                 be complete, not partial. Gore doesn't want a complete
                 recount, since that wouldn't really help him.
        \_ As a student I worked in the Stat. Dept.  The one book you found
           in most grad student offices was titled, "How to lie with
           statistics".  Being rather naive at the time, I found the mere
           existence of such a thing shocking.  That so many grad students
           owned a copy left me speechless.  --Naive no more
           \_ I think you might have misunderstood the point of this book.
              The point of the book is not to teach the reader how to lie
              with statistics in order to deceive others.  Instead the book
              discusses many ways to misrepresent statistics so that the
              reader can recognize when such tricks are used and prevent
              himself from being deceived.  It's an excellent book.  -emin
           \_ where can I get a copy of that book? - never took stat
              \_ url:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393310728/qid=974189709/sr=1-2/102-9687828-6208930
2000/11/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:19723 Activity:very high
11/10   If Green Party has its own way, would we be forced to drive
        expensive electric cars, pay an exorbitant amount of rent because
        of land conservation, and pay $500 yearly to support the Sierra Club?
        \_  $500 yearly for the sierra club?  HAH!  the IRS would be  paying
            the sierra club for you, from the 10% sierra club income tax.
        \_ http://www.greenparty.org/Platform.html
        \_ Don't be stupid.  Stop slandering the left and go read their
           platform.
           \_ Yeah. There platform discredits them more than anyone else
              ever could.
              \_ It's "Their" dumbass.  I can see why you like Bush.
2000/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:19408 Activity:nil
10/04   Is it REALLY true that Republicans are mostly SIG (special interest
        group) aging Caucasians?
2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/17   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Domestic:SIG:
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