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2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2005/9/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39601 Activity:nil
9/9     At least Al Gore saved some lives in New Orleans. It is really
        too bad we didn't get the President we elected:
        http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/7/164747/4155
2005/9/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39589 Activity:nil
9/9     FEMA director Brown relieved of Hurricane Katrina duties
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1481155/posts
        \_ "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." - gwbush
           \_ This will be transformed into "Brownie who?" in the coming
              months.
                \_ Or, "It was a sarcasm."
           \_ No need to refute that.  He was pulled off so FEMA can be ready
              with its top guy for the next disaster.  The replacement was
              always part of the plan.  (When he quietly moves on in a few
              months, it will be to spend more time with his family.)
2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39576 Activity:nil 50%like:38884
9/8     Compare the CBS News poll and CNN/Gallup poll, and how the way
        a question is asked can produce results giving dramatically different
        impressions on the Hurricane Katrina disaster:
        http://www.pollingreport.com/disasters.htm
        \_ CNN/Gallup also started their poll on Labor Day.  I wonder what
           effect that has in the makeup of respondees.
2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39572 Activity:nil
9/8     http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/08.html#a4856
        Mississippi resident yells "Go f-ck yourself" during Cheney interview.
        (click movie link, wait 1 minute until web site responds)
        \_ Who cares?
           \_ sodans do!  but obviously not the bush luvahs
        \_ The Mississippi resident is just practicing the golden rule
           \_ No, he is practicing the reverse Golden Rule, also known
              as the psb rule.
2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39571 Activity:nil
9/8     http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/08.html#a4851
        Watch conservative Joe Scarborough, while saying Nagin and the LA
        governor are inept and in over their heads, ask why Dubya's people
        didn't run New Orleans as efficiently as the Florida hurricanes
        (three different sections where he talks)
2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39569 Activity:nil
9/8     "People who do not want to play The Blame Game....
         are to blame." - last night's daily show.
        \_ i think it's the 'meet the f**ckers' link
           http://tinyurl.com/9c3ko
           http://tinyurl.com/9c3ko - danh
           \_ That was really good, thanks!
        \_ are you talking about Iraq and its role in 9/11 attack?
2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39548 Activity:high
9/7     "The three top jobs at the Federal Emergency Management Agency under
        President Bush went to political cronies with no apparent experience
        coping with catastrophes"
        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/344004p-293718c.html
        \_ What no one here seems to understand is that FEMA has always been
           an idiotic and inept agency run by the cronies of whoever is in
           power at the time.  It has never been different.  I was shocked
           that so many other people were shocked at how poorly FEMA handled
           their duties until I realised that most people don't understand
           that FEMA has never been any different.
                \_ Then why did the (governor of Lousiana?) get the head of
                   FEMA under Clinton to help out?
           \_ "FEMA has always been an idiotic and inept agency"
           \_ so, you think it is a good idea to install another cronies
                after 9/11 when entire US is under terrorist threat?
                you are very funny.
           \_ This is so much partisan bullshit I can't believe it.
              "FEMA has always been an idiotic and inept agency"
              Who the fuck are you, man?
              Who are you, man?
              http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm
              "In 1993, President Clinton nominated James L. Witt as the new
              FEMA director. Witt became the first agency director with
              experience as a state emergency manager."
              \_ exactly.  thanks for making my point.  so one time for one
                 term this one agency had a director who became the *first*
                 such directory with experience in the field.  and you believe
                 this somehow magically makes FEMA into a great and well
                 functioning .org until the other party gets in power?  Geeze,
                 talk about partisan bullshit.  Except I *can* believe it since
                 this is the motd.  I don't expect reason, logic, common sense.
                 I do expect people with a political axe to grind, an agenda
                 to push and an insanely deep faith in the perfection of the
                 government (esp if it's federal level) followed by endless
                 rants about evil and/or incompetence when something doesn't
                 go right federally with excuses made for any local official
                 as long as the local is from the same party as the ranter.
                 \_ "He initiated sweeping reforms that streamlined disaster
                    relief and recovery operations, insisted on a new
                    emphasis regarding preparedness and mitigation, and
                    focused agency employees on customer service."
                    So, do you know what happened to the Veterans
                    Administration after the appointment of an experienced
                    leader?
                    Your label of me as someone who has "an insanely deep faith
                    in the perfection of the government" is even more
                    incredible partisan bullshit.
                    Let's get back to something concrete:
                    Do you know what happened to the VA after the appointment
                    of an experience leader?
                    of an experience leader? -jblack
        \_ With very few exceptions all government agencies are very slow
           and mostly inept. FEMA is like the DMV of emergency management.
           That said, the group of people most responsible for this
           disaster are the citizens of NO that stayed in a below-sea-level
           bowl with an approaching category 5 hurricane (20 ft storm
           surge and 160+ mph winds).  Certainly you have compassion on
           the small fraction of elderly that were incapable of leaving,
           but besides them, these morons of NO created a massive
           humanitarian disaster that the US taxpayer now has to pay to
           clean up.  Next in the line of blame are the inept local and
           state officials.  There is a very specific chain of command
           in disaster response which starts with local authorities. By law
           Federal government can only respond at the request of a state,
           \_ Are you just stupid? How many times to we have to tell you?
              The state DID put in a request for federal assistance.
           \_ Are you just stupid Justin? How many times to we have to tell
              you? The state DID put in a request for federal assistance.
              And it was clearly spelled out that state and local
              officials don't have sufficient resources to deal with
              the disaster. You can't blame them. When a category 4
              hurricane wipes out your emergency services, you're kind
              of dependent on outside help.
              \_ A state of emergency was declared on Saturday August
                 27th by the President.  FEMA rescue and medical squads
                 were prepositioned then for the disaster.  What you
                 \_ FEMA squads were given 48 hours to get 1000 people
                    there.  That order came down on MONDAY AFTERNOON.
                    Two days after the president's emergency declaration.
                    Just to be exact on what you apparently meant by "then"...
                 seem to miss is the FEMA/Fed is NOT a first responder.
                 I had not heard of the destruction of ALL of LA's emergency
                 services, national guard, and homeland security
                 resources, what did they do station them on a Gulf beach
                 to act as a sea wall?  Its interesting that all of
                 NO was essentially intact after Katrina came through and
                 yet all of these resources were magically "wiped out".
                 I restate my position: the state
                 and local authorities criminally failed to execute their
                 emergency response plans.
                 \_ 1. It doesn't matter if the federal government declared
                    or "pre-positioned" anything because in the end, they
                    failed to act in a timely manner and did jack shit.
                    2. National Guard and Homeland Security are federal
                    agencies 3. NOLA being the largest city in LA, a large
                    enough portion of their emergency services were disabled
                    to warrant outside help. What was left of LA's resources
                    was insufficient. 4. Feds ARE the next responders when
                    state/local services are incapacitated. 4.  "all of NO was
                    essentially intact"? Can I have some of whatever you're
                    smoking? 5. Your position that local authorities acted
                    criminally is a blatant attempt to mask the complete
                    ineptitude of federal authorities who were specifically
                    requested to help. You know, kind of like when you dial
                    911 during an emergency when you are in some way
                    incapacitated and need help? You would expect someone to
                    show up, not have them sit around their ass complaining
                    that you haven't given yourself CPR.
                    that you haven't given yourself CPR. -jblack
                    \_ You've been trolled by jblack. Dumb ass.
                       \_ but jblack is being serious isn't he?
                    \_ Exactly what emergency services are you are referring
                       to as 'destroyed'?  The city was intact after
                       Katrina.   You do realize the levies did not break
                       until the following morning, right?
                       There were 140 school buses subsequently submerged
                       under water 1 mile from the Superdome after the
                       1 mile from the Superdome after the
                       flood.  Don't you think
                       maybe just maybe those kind of resources should
                       have been mobilized and prepositioned for use in
                       the case of flooding?  Don't you think the
                       disappearance of 1/3 of NO police force is suspect?
                       The remaining police officers didn't even have
                       enough ammunition.
                       Isn't it possible that the city should have
                       prepositioned MREs and water somewhere above sea
                       level to feed people it sends to emergency shelters?
                       What you have is negligence
                       to put any plan whatsoever into action on the part
                       of the local authorities and consequently
                       the city descended into anarchy.  The Feds showed up
                       when they are supposed to and when they always
                       have in the past - within 96 hours.  Throwing up
                       your hands, crying, running around like a headless
                       chicken and accusing the CIA of
                       trying to kill you ala Blanco and Nagin is not
                       the execution of an emergency plan.
                       the execution of an emergency plan.  You are
                       projecting responsibilities and authority to
                       the Federal govt it was never legally assigned.  The
                       state and local authorities knew this and if they
                       failed to prepare for a fairly obvious disaster
                       scenario it is their fault. -jblack
                       scenario it is their fault.
           FEMA is not a first-responder,
           and FEMA does not have any military police powers to put down
           an insurrection.  The anarchy that erupted in the 1st 72 hrs
           falls squarely at the feet of Blanco and Nagin who criminally
           failed to execute their own emergency evacuation plans, as
           required by LA law.  Lastly, the Federal government dropped
           the ball and should have recognized the scale of the impending
           disaster because of the incompetence of the local authorities.
           Moral of the story: people who rely of the government to
           rescue them from a telegraphed natural disaster are going
           to be disappointed.
           to be disappointed. -jblack
           \_ Your Honor, she deserved to be raped.  She was asking for it.
           \_ I would rely on government to prevent 90% of New Orleans from
              being flooded with damage reportedly costing 4x over the
              9/11 tragedy.
              Am I disappointed?  Yes.  Could both the federal and state
              government have done a better job (within reason)?  Yes.
              I would also say FEMA was in charge pre-Dubya, and was arguably
              strong and effective under Clinton.  Dubya weakened FEMA and
              transferred primary responsibility for natural disasters to the
              states.  If a state can't hack it, then is it Dubya's fault for
              not ensuring a proper transition, or the state's fault for
              dropping the ball?
              I already know what your opinion is, as you do mine.
           \_ Let's get back to the original post:
              How experienced was the head of FEMA under Clinton?
              Under Dubya?
              \_ 1999 Hurricane Swamped Clinton's FEMA
                  http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/7/134914.shtml
              How experienced was the head of FEMA under fucking Klinton?
              Under our great commander-in-chief, Dubya? -jblack
                \_ Experienced in doing FEMA stuff or experience with horses?
              \_ Spelling it "Klinton" is klever.
        \_ In September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- a category 3 -- was bearing
           down on the Carolinas and Virginia.
        \_ In September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- a category 3 -- was bearing down the
        Carolinas and Virginia.

           President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with
           President Jiang of China (you know, actually working). He made the
           proclamation that nly Presidents can make and declared the areas
           affected by Floyd "Federal Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and
           Military can begin to mobilize. Then he cut short his
           meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the rescue
           efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast.
           That is how you do it.
President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with President
Jiang of China (you know, actually working). He made the proclamation that
only Presidents can make and declared the areas affected by Floyd "Federal
Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and Military can begin to mobilize. Then
           Military can begin to mobilize. Then
           he cut short his meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the
rescue efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast. That is
how you do it.
           rescue efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast. That
           is how you do it.

           How about this dope's own father during Hurricane Andrew? Once again,
           President Bush (41) -- August, 1992 -- was in the midst of a bruta
           campain for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day
           before and went to Washington where he maritaled
           the largest military operation on US soil in soil in history.
           He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular military
           personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within
           before and went to
           Washington where he martialed the largest military operation on US
           soil in history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular
           military personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within
           hours after Andrew passed through Florida. 'Cause, you know,
           those people and their stuff was actually where it
           belonged, rather than being used for insurgent target-
           practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make
           Iraq safe for Iranian takeover.
President Bush (41) -- August, 1992 -- was in the midst of a brutal campaign
for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day before and went to
Washington where he martialed the largest military operation on US soil in
history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular military
personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within hours after Andrew
passed through Florida. 'Cause, you know, those people and their stuff was
           those people and their stuff was
           actually where it belonged, rather than being used for insurgent
target-practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make Iraq safe
for Iranian takeover.
           target-practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make
           Iraq safe for Iranian takeover.

           In August of 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the
           same area as Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the
           National Guard and ordered all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment
           from Tampa and Houston to follow the Hurricane in. There were over
           1,00 regular milirary with two dozen helicopters to assist the
           Coast Guard and National Guard within hours after the skies cleared.
In August of 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the same area as
Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the National Guard and ordered
all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to follow the
Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military with two dozen
helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and National Guard within hours after
the skies cleared.
           National Guard and ordered
           all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to
           follow the Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military
           with two dozen helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and
           National Guard within hours after the skies cleared.

           Bush 43 - August 2005 - Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on
           New Orleans and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly
           8,000 National Guard troops because they are in Iraq --
           with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush is on vacation.
           The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his
           bike for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to his
           Johnnie McCain's birthday party; and lies to old people about
           the multi-billion pharmaceutical company welfare boondoogle.
           8,000 National Guard troops because
           they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush
           is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his
           bike for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to
           Johnnie McCain's birthday party;
           and lies to old people about the multi-billion-dollar
           pharmaceutical company welfare boondoogle.
           People are dying, the largest port of entry in the United
           States (and fifth largest in the World) is under attack. Troops and
           supplies are desperately needed. The levees are cracking and the
           emergency 1-1/2 ton sandbags are ready, but there aren't enough
           helicopters or pilots to set them before the levees fail.
           The mayor of New Orleans begs for Federal coordination, but
           there is none, and the sandbagging never gets done. So Bush
           -- naturally -- goes to San Diego to play guitar with country
           singer and lie to the military about how Iraq is just exactly like
           WWII. The levees give way, filling New Orleans with water,
           sewage, oil and chemicals. Ten percent of all US exports,
           and 50% of all agricultural exports ordinarly go through this
           port. It is totally destroyed. Bush decides he'll end his
           vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS
           TICKETS TO A PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford,
           with every intention of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this
           vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS TICKETS
           TO A PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford, with
           every intention of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this
           disaster that happened starting last Sunday night.
           \_ not exactly objective, but it got a lot of facts.  Thanks.
              Question:  I thought HW Bush was being critized of handling
              of Andrews, no?
Bush 43 - August 2005 - Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on New Orleans
and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly 8,000 National Guard
troops because they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush
is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his bike
for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to Johnnie McCain's birthday party;
and lies to old people about the multi-billion-dollar pharmaceutical company
welfare boondoggle. People are dying, the largest port of entry in the
United States (and fifth largest in the World) is under attack. Troops and
supplies are desperately needed. The levees are cracking and the emergency
1-1/2 ton sandbags are ready, but there aren't enough helicopters or pilots
to set them before the levees fail. The mayor of New Orleans begs for
Federal coordination, but there is none, and the sandbagging never gets
done. So Bush -- naturally -- goes to San Diego to play guitar with country
singer and lie to the military about how Iraq is just exactly like WWII. The
levees give way, filling New Orleans with water, sewage, oil and chemicals.
Ten percent of all US exports, and 50% of all agricultural exports ordinarly
go through this port. It is totally destroyed. Bush decides he'll end his
vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS TICKETS TO A
PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford, with every intention
of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this disaster that happened starting
last Sunday night.
              \_ the best lies are mixed with facts.  make it a long rant and
                 it becomes difficult to tease apart truth from fiction and
                 in a forum like the motd just not worth bothering.
                 \_ reiffin, i challenge you to a DUEL.
                    I am a COMMANDO. --ausman
           \_ they have no bread?  Well, then, let them eat cake!
           \_ Thank you for the clear breakdown.  This is exactly the issue.
              jblack, your crap about "this isn't the feds" responsibility is
              only true in your ugly little pipe dream world.  Go buy an island
              and start your own country.  Then you can pay as little tax as
              you want.
2005/9/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39547 Activity:nil
9/7     What does the Bush administration think firefighters should do
        in Lousiana:
        1) Hand out FEMA flyers:
        http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197
        2) Be props to show that Bush is "working":
        http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/6/233139/2154
2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39541 Activity:nil
9/7     Article from National Geographic Oct. 2004 discussing the
        causes and likely aftermath of a devastating hurricane in NOLA
        http://tinyurl.com/dwmdm
2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39540 Activity:nil
9/7     ~90% of the Democrats think the religious right provides a
        negative influence on American culture, while ~90% of the
        Republicans think it provides a positive influence:
        http://pollingpoint.com/results_071305.html
        \_ What about independents?
        \_ In related news, 90% of cats think birds are a tasty treat, while
           90% of birds hate cats.
           \_ Oddly, the 10% dissenting birds are hawks.
2005/9/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39538 Activity:nil
9/6     At the White House news conference earlier today GWB finanlly explained
        why the hurricane relief efford was so slow: "The Katrina was just a
        part of the new 'Survivor' series. No, no this wasn't a disaster. These
        were Challenges which were just part of the show. I can forgive those
        critics who said that the government should have helped sooner because
        they didn't know that New Orleans was just one of the Challenges.
        If we called for help, that would be breaking the rules and everyone
        still remaining in New Orleans would've been disqualified from the
        game."
2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39536 Activity:nil
9/6     FEMA Chief waited until after storm hit before asking his employees
        to New Orleans, and gave them two days to arrive:
        http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_disaster_response
        \_ dude, give him some slack.  He knows more about horse racing
           than diseaster relief.  Consider his non-existance background,
           I would say he is pretty good for a beginner.
                \_ It's not like people are dying or anything.
                   \_ i was trying to be sarcastic
                        \_ So was I, but I guess I didn't succeed
        \_ um, generally FEMA helps out w/ reconstruction AND the aid
           requested by gov of LA was to help w/ clearing roads and
           building temp house, &c. [ There are plenty of other reasons
           to think that FEMA messed up ]
2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39535 Activity:nil
9/6     Firefighter volunteers were used as FEMA PR specialists:
        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_09_04.php#006430
        http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197
        "As specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a
        team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for
        Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush
        as he tours devastated areas."
        http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050903/ids_photos_india_wl/ra2838142191.jpg
        \_ that's nice. keep trolling.
         \_ You don't know what trolling means do you?
        \_ "This could look bad for OCP.  Assemble our best spin team."
        \_ Impeach GWB now. -mrauser
                \_ The foxes are currently guarding the henhouse.  Actually,
                   it's more like the foxes are guarding the foxhouse.
2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39533 Activity:nil
9/6     If you had any doubt that the Washington Times is a right-wing
        media outlet:
        http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm (Editor in Chief)
        \_ "The vultures of the venomous left" -- I love it! I want a t-shirt
           proclaiming me a vulture of the venomous left!
2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39532 Activity:nil
9/6     When Wal-Mart sent three trailer trucks loaded with water,
        FEMA officials turned them away, he said. Agency workers
        prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of
        diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the parish's emergency
        communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and
        post armed guards to protect it from FEMA, Mr. Broussard said.
        \_ urlP
           \_ #t
           \_ Go to http://nyt.com and do a search. http://www.csua.org seems to have
              been taken over by porn links. Dunno why.
        \_ http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/06/D8CERTB80.html
2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/16   

2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39520 Activity:nil
9/6     Relief efforts: Callous, racist, and inept.
        http://www.dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=27528&postcount=30
        http://www.dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=27529&postcount=31
        \_ "sheroes" is one of the stupidest words I've ever heard.  -tom
           \_ Sexist!
        \_ this sounds fabricated.
2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39517 Activity:nil
9/6     "At one point, there were a load of girls on the roof of the hotel
        saying 'Can you help us?' and the policemen said 'Show us what you've
        got' and made signs for them to lift their T-shirts. When the girls
        refused, they said 'Fine' and motored off down the road in their boat."
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4217022.stm
        \_ Oh no! The horror! Men being scum! Cops acting corrupt!
           We must outlaw this with an amendment!
           \_ Please state for the record which party most recently tried
              to amend the constitution for purely political reasons.
              \_ I'm sure those cops, and their unions, were 100% GOP.
                 As if that had anything to do with the above.
           \_ Sounds good to me. Where's the petition? -non-scum man
              \_ If you victims are dead, how will you know who to
                 press charges against?
2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39513 Activity:nil
9/6     http://csua.org/u/d9k (Wash Post)
        "Is the problem the Bush administration's ideological fervor for
        small government? Does the White House really believe that primary
        responsibility should fall on volunteers, church groups and
        individuals? Or is it just stunning incompetence and lack of
        foresight?"
        \-OWNERSHIP SOCIETY
        \_ last time I checked, number of people on Federal payroll is
           actually *INCREASED*.  Further, we ran from huge surplus
           to huge deficit.  hmm... I don't know.  Ideology aside,
           from the number of it, Bush is more of a big government type
           than Clinton!
           \- i believe fed govt increase/decr is better predicted
              by whether cong and white house are same party than
              whether president is R or D. structure trumps ideoology. --psb
              \_ agree.  my problem is that Republican kept bitching
                 about how democrats are pro-big-government type, nothing
                 more.
        \_ GWB to US: You've been pwn3d!
2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39510 Activity:nil
9/5     "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay
        in Texas. Everybody is so overhwlemed by the hospitality. And so many
        of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway
        so this (chuckle)--this is working very well for them."
        -Barbara Bush
        \_ Now we see where W learned his endearing "chuckle at inappropriate
           moments" technique.
        \_ FYI http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080
2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39503 Activity:moderate
9/3     Talking POINTS on Fox,  towards the end of the talk on "The lesson
        to be learned from Hurricane Katrina" says that if you want something
        done, you do it yourself. You can't rely on the government for
        anything, you must rely on yourself. Conservatism #1! Republican #1!!!
        \_ Weird, I thought law and order was the one thing conservatives
           think government is good for.
        \_ Weird, I thought the one thing conservatives and libertarians
           thought was a valid function of government was law and order.
           \_ Conservatives believe in, first and foremost, *self-reliance*,
              the "take matters with your own hands" attitude.
              \_ oh, man, things were so much better when the states all
                 printed their own money.
              \_ So you're saying that each state and local government
                 should invest billions of dollars in their own military
                 and civil infrastructure to defend themselves and deal
                 with catastrophic terrorist acts or natural disasters?
                 That sure makes a lot of sense economically.  Why create
                 a single resource that can be shared amongst the entire
                 nation when you can just reinvent the wheel at the state
                 and local levels? Because we all need to be "self-reliant"
                 \_ I'm not saying that. It's what many Republicans believe.
                    \_ really?  got a URL for any republican saying that
                       each state and local government should spend billions
                       of state/local dollars for their own military and
                       civil infrastructure to defend themselves and deal
                       with catastrophic terrorist acts and natural
                       disasters?  oh. no.  you don't.  you just made that
                       up.  welcome to the motd.
                       \_ Republicans are defending the federal government
                          and the president while blaming state and local
                          authorities for the NOLA fiasco. If you're
                          saying that it means that either (A) the state
                          did not utilize all the resources it had in
                          an effective manner or (B) the state simply
                          did not have the resources to handle the
                          disaster in the first place. But I think it's
                          clear from the scale of the disaster that the
                          only way to deal with this disaster is to have
                          an emergency response infrastructure that is well
                          beyond the scale and budget of any state like
                          LA.
                          \_ The world is not that black and white.  Local and
                             state authorities have responsibilities that they
                             shirked.  They didn't even approach a minimal
                             \_ You don't have any evidence of this other than
                                the rantings of right wing blogs.  Do you still
                                believe the governor didn't declare a state of
                                emergency?
                                \_ How many school buses were left sitting
                                   unused?  What exactly was the evacuation
                                   plan and did anyone even try to follow it?
                                   I don't read *any* blogs, thanks for trying.
                                   \_ So your evacuation plan would have been
                                      to ferry 100,000 on these school buses
                                      to be driven by all these school bus
                                      drivers who would rather take care of
                                      their own family and problems than to
                                      drive a bunch of strangers around on
                                      an already overcrowded I-10?
                                      \_ nice way to ignore the rest.  but yes
                                         if you had read the plan you'd know
                                         that the school buses they left to rot
                                         were *part* of the plan to evac those
                                         who couldn't get out on their own.
                                         look, i'm sorry if the facts are
                                         getting in the way of your agenda but
                                         the fact remains that the locals have
                                         responsibilities and failed.  here,
                                         let me save you the trouble of going
                                         on, "gwb is evil, HALIBURTON!, oil,
                                         Iraq, cheney is evil, scalia is evil,
                                         dick morris is evil, HALIBURTON!, oil,
                                         save the spotted owl, christians are
                                         evil!".  did i miss anything?
                                         \_ I've never said anything in the
                                            last 5 lines you wrote there but
                                            nice of you to make assumptions
                                            like that. I do think GWB is
                                            pretty inept. What was the *full*
                                            plan? I think the mayor calling
                                            for a mandatory evacuation and
                                            the governer requesting a state
                                            of emergency is part of the plan.
                                            I think the federal government
                                            not acting on the request is
                                            pretty criminal. If a state
                                            governer requests resources for
                                            evacuation and you don't act on
                                            it  that places the blame on
                                            the federal government, not
                                            state and local.
                             level of reasonable response or use the resources
                             they had in place prior to the event to prevent
                             a lot of the hardship we've seen in the last week.
                             Yes, of course the federal response could have
                             been better as the President already stated.  The
                             federal response was slow and somewhat inept. The
                             state/local response borders on criminal.  With
                             authority comes responsibility, something the
                             locals didn't understand and the people suffered
                             for it.  It's all fun n games being Governor or
                             Mayor until people start drowning, starving, and
                             dying of dehydration.  Then you just blame the
                             feds and start your re-election campaign early.
                             \_ How is the state and local response
                                "criminal"? The state and local govt have
                                limited resources. The federal govt has
                                much greater resources. If you exhaust your
                                state and local resources to capacity then
                                you've done everything you can. But if you're
                                a federal government with billions of dollars
                                at its disposal and you've done jack shit
                                at your disposal and you've done jack shit
                                then that's criminal
                                \_ see above.
              \_ I thought that was more of a Libertarian plank....
              \_ I think their definition of "self-reliance" meant something
                 like "give tax break to big business" and "relax
                 pollution standard so mercury is on everyone's dinner
                 plate."
                 like "give tax break to big business" and "relax pollution
                 standard so mercury is on everyone's dinner plate."
2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39501 Activity:low
9/3     Bush Nominates Roberts for Chief Justice
        Hey man, didn't I say this was coming ...
        "The main point is that Roberts could be the next Rehnquist, and this
        could last for decades."
        \- i did suggest on the wall 1. bush will likely nominate somebody
           "you have never heard of" [unless you are a Groupie of
           somebody "you have never heard of" [unless you are an Groupie of
           the Federal Judiciary] 2. ROBERTS was being set up to be Chief
           [over Scalia] although when the possibility existed to ask OCONNOR
           to stay on as acting CJ and then elevate ROBERTS, i thought he
           might go with that plan [I believe no extra  hearing needed to
           make OCONNOR acting CJ, and that would have been a breeze]. THOMAS'
           tribute comments are leem: "I am sad and I miss him. He was good.
           Pray." [ok maybe there was more to it?]
           make OCONNOR acting CJ, and that would have been a breeze]. It's
           interesting to note how leem THOMAS tribute is: "I was sad and I
           miss him. He was good. Pray." [ok maybe there was more to it?]
           See: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/04/rehnquist.reaction/index.html
           I guess this gives STEVENS license to make his appointment a
           "life setence" too. Yeah. --psb
2005/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39499 Activity:nil
9/6     Why does BBC hate the Republicans?
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4214516.stm
2005/9/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39495 Activity:nil
9/4     Ring them bells
        http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/09/ring-them-bells.html
2005/9/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39493 Activity:nil
9/4     The Schiavo response vs. the Katrina response:
        http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/09/three_days.shtml
2005/9/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39492 Activity:nil
9/4     New Orleans PD shoots dead six Army contractors walking across
        bridge with guns
        - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1477299/posts
        Come read the thread before it was removed by http://freerepublic.com staff:
        - http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~jctwu/posts.htm
        Read new freshened thread which replaced it:
        - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1477350/posts
        \_ Must have been part of the "insurgency":
           http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php
        \_ I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  Freepers make my head hurt.
        \_ New news:  "Army Corps of Engineers says its contractors were not
           killed by police, but gunmen who fired at them were killed."
           Also, that thread that got removed got relisted.  Weird. -op
           \_ Awesome, they relisted racist trash!
        \_ CBC news says something nearly totally different:
           http://csua.org/u/d8t
           \_ Yes, just like what it says under "New news: ...".
2005/9/4-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39490 Activity:moderate
9/4     So are we putting that sobbing woman in charge of LA behind bars for
        endangering thousands of lives with her incompetence or what?
        It's ok to be outraged at a Democrat, I won't hold it against you.
          -- ilyas
        \_ Sure, we should.  And the incompetent party hack in charge of
           FEMA who fucked up the response, and the fucking moron running
           the executive branch of our government who totally completely
           duffed the response to this massive clusterfuck, and the idiots
           who stripped FEMA budgets to pay for imagined terrorism threats
           that never materialized, in the process making it impossible to
           respond to a massive, predicted disaster to the national
           economy (not to mention all those random floating corpses), and
           wait, who sent the LA national guard where?  At least you're
           fair about FEMA/etc. down below.  -John
           \_ Gee, thanks John, that means so much to me. -- ilyas
              \_ If, by some chance, you managed to be less of a
                 sanctimonious fuckwit from time to time, you might be a bit
                 more credible, not that you care.  If you post bullshit
                 like the above, expect to have it panned.  -John
                 \_ Pathetic.  Any criticism of !republicans can expect this
                    kind of reception these days.  Well, I would be interested
                    how many of you will change your tune as more information
                    becomes available. It's patently obvious to me LA/NO
                    government FAILED. NO mayor, unlike all of you, is already
                    seeing the writing on the wall, and talking about
                    'taking responsibility that he has to take.'  I am sure
                    there will be a lot of rolling heads after this is over.
                    Anyways, I think I am done with the motd.  It's finally
                    turned into wall.  -- ilyas
                    \_ I criticize what I think are unreasonable statements
                       from any political spectrum.  Don't imply nonsense; I
                       never hinted that your attack on the LA governor was
                       wrong, but rather incomplete, she's not the only one
                       by far who should be shot.  Sorry about the tantrum,
                       it was written after the anonymous cowardly troll
                       below.  -John
                    \_ Fuck you, ilyas.  I criticize stupid shit.  You posted
                       KING STUPID SHIT.  I criticize it.  I don't give a
                       flying rat turd if it's liberal or conservative or
                       whatever else not-worthy-of-cal-grad undifferentiated
                       third-rate label you put on it.  If you are going to be
                       dense about it and imply nonsense, go ahead; I never
                       even hinted that [whatever whiny {conservative/liberal}
                       agenda-du-jour] you or any of the other random motd
                       squeaky wheels were pounding on, including criticising
                       LA govt., was wrong, but rather that a whole shitload
                       of others, including some apparent darlings of yours,
                       should also be put into public stocks and have rotten\
                       tomatoes thrown at them.  Apparently you are beyond
                       actually _reading_ what people write before throwing
                       a major tantrum, though.  F0AD.  -John
                       \_ That whole exchange was kind of creepy.  I mean,
                          seriosuly "Are you scared" and "I'll get you"?
                          seriously "Are you scared" and "I'll get you"?
                          That's just damned weird.
                          \_ John, were you scared?
                             \_ Think about that question for a moment. -John
                    \_ Just ten years of rational finally managed to drive
                       Ilyas off the motd? Yipeee!!!
                    \_ It's turned into wall thanks to people like you.
                       THANK YOU ILYAS! Please sing folk song with me for
                       nalstalgie. gori, gori, lyubov' tsyganki, Lyubov'
                       krasavitsy smuglyanki, gorit nad nami sila vlastnaya,
                       gorit odna  lyubov' prekrastnaya ...
        \_ What you talkin' about ilyas?  You got a link anywhere?
           \_I curious too.
           \_ Well, her response is something that will be analyzed in depth
              soon.  From the preliminary information I have, I can see she
              was not nearly decisive enough, despite a few days' warning.
              As for the 'sobbing woman' comment, have you seen some of her
              press conference footage?  She had a chance to pull a Giuliani,
              and be a leader. FEMA and homeland security morons failed
              rather laughably also. -- ilyas
              \_ This is just a Republican disinformation campaign. -ausman
              \_ This is a Republican disinformation campaign.  -ausman
                 http://csua.org/u/d92
        \_ You really are getting desperate, aren't you.
           \_ desperate would be doing yermom.  I know.  I did.
        \_ Are you talking about this [ specifically the parts where it talks
           about the gov of LA]?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html
           \_ I am talking about my impression of the LA clusterfuck which
              resulted in no small part from the governor's failure to act
              early and decisively.  Obviously, I don't have all of the
              details yet, although I am educating myself on the situation.
              This is a 'fun' read:
              http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor
                -- ilyas
              \_ Neat, ilyas is already repeating Rove talking points!
 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05bush.html?pagewanted=print
                 \_ Yeah, because I am incapable of generating an original
                    thought, and just mimic my Dark Neocon Masters.  You've
                    gotten dumber with age, Eli.  I don't remember you being
                    so idiotic when you were hanging around hoserchat. -- ilyas
              \_ You may be interested in this:
                 http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf
                 (Dated 28 Aug 2005)
        \_ I blame her for not being related to the President and for not being
           in charge of a swing state during an election year. The same FEMA
           that's getting it's ass handed to it by everyone for reacting so
           slowly is came to the overwhelming rescue of Florida after each
           of the four hurricanes that hit in 2004, even declaring counties
           not hit as disaster zones. Damn that Woman! Damn her Relations!
           \_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel.  Are you scared? -- ilyas
              \_ Fuck you, you craven little shit.  I will never point a gun
                 at anyone in anything but self-defence.  You, on the other
                 hand, have gone totally off the deep end.  Nor will I ever
                 go looking for a fight on purpose unlike certain other
                 psychopaths.  I will, however, gleefully pound the living
                 shit out of your scrawny little ass if you ever so much as
                 go "boo" at me in person.  Now get a life.  -John
              \_ [Retracted] -John
                 \_ Hi John, that wasn't me.  You can check your favorite motd
                    logger.  Feel free to apologize at any time.  Other than
                    this reply, nothing below the reply to Eli is authored by
                    me.  And now perhaps it's clear why I am done with the
                    motd. -- ilyas
                    \_ I apologize and take it back, I've been trolled. -John
                 \_ I challenge you to any kind of fight.
                    You are the craven.  I will get you. -- ilyas
                    \_ Come get some.  Now would you mind explaining, as far
                       as your apparently random little mind will allow,
                       what brought this on?  I assume it's because you seem
                       to believe I posted the bit 4 levels up, for some
                       reason, and that this set off some equally random
                       reaction?  How about you challenge me to a "hey, I had
                       better get professional help" fight.  "Gun duel"?  Give
                       me a break.  Do you challenge random people you've not
                       met to gun duels often?  Tell you what, if we ever meet,
                       you can start all the fights you want, deal?  -John
                    \_ Come get some.  You're right, I'm craven because I
                       don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met
                       who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd.  Do you
                       challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya?  -John
                 \_ I'll lend you two taser guns. I'll try to get the media
                    to film the world's first TASER DUEL. It's novel, it's
                    safe, and it's cool. How about it?
              \_ He should be. The fucking liberal bailed out of the Swiss
                 army and has never even laid his hands on a girly .22 cal.
                 You on the other hand represents the finest of the Red Neck
                 libertarians who love to collect fully auto M16s and AK47s.
                 \_ I am willing to negotiate whether long guns or pistols
                    or bow. -- ilyas
           \_ [STUPIDITY CENSOR WAS HERE]
                    \_ Ilya, I'm willing to lend you my Star Trek phaser I
                       bought at the convention. It's a collector's item.
                       I'll also lend John my M-18 Taser gun.
           \_ [STUPID POLICE WAS HERE MK. II]
2005/9/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39472 Activity:moderate
9/3     "New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras
        free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the
        sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of
        all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in
        His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're
        going to start over again." - Rev Bill Shanks (American Fam. Assoc.)
        \_ Damn those pagans! Now they pay for it!
        \_ Operation Blame The Fags kicks into high gear:
           http://driftglass.blogspot.com
              \_ Gays are being denied FEMA aid.  Santa Monica has sent
                 aid earmarked for Gays.  Go to http://gay.org to donate. -tyms
           \_ This is one of the best trolls I've ever seen. You should see
              the captions and the pictures, it's hilarious. This is something
              liberals write for sarcasm, and conservatives actually agree on.
              \_ There are only 2 types of people, right?
                 \_ There's two kinds of people in this world, my friend:
                 \_ There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend:
                    those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
                 \_ There are infinite type, but only 2 extreme types actively
                    shape our lives.
                    \_ Yes, idiots like yourself and everyone else.
                 \_ There are two types of people.  Those who separate people
                    into two different types and those who don't.  --jon
                 \_ There are 10 types of people. Those who understand
                    binary and those who don't.
                 \_ There are 10 types of people. Those who can count
                    in binary and those who can't.
        \_ "God attacked America and the prayers of the oppressed were
           answered, The wrath of the All-powerful fell upon the nation of
           oppressors. Their dead are in the thousands and their losses
           are in the billions," said the statement from the group led by
           Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has a $25 million U.S. bounty on this head
           "Only recently America killed and starved whoever it wanted, but
           today it is appealing for oil and food," it added.
2005/9/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39471 Activity:nil
9/3     "(Al Qaeda leader Osama) bin Laden, nice and dry in his hideaway,
        must be killing himself laughing [at the Bush Katrina disaster]."
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_reaction_dc
        \_ Why would you make light of the suffering of others?
           \_ Because its not as much fun when it happens to you. :(
                -mrauser
2005/9/2-3 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39464 Activity:nil
9/2     Christ.  It just gets worse and worse.
        http://www.nola.com/weblogs/nola/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_nolaview/archives/2005_09.html#076355
2005/9/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39463 Activity:moderate
9/2     So everyone is complaining that the Federal response to
        this Katrina business is too slow.
        1. Why should there be a federal response at all?
        2. Shouldn't it be the responsiblity of the state to deal
           with this sort of thing?
        3. Why blame the feds for acting slowly when the states
           didn't ask for help for ~ 2 days? [ I could be wrong
           on the timeframe here ]
        \_ 33% Federal income tax, that's fucking why.  Screw all the "the
           gub'mint should this, and the Feds should that", here's a service
           that people paid for and they ain't getting it.  Someone should
           call the BBB.  -John
        2. Shouldn't it be the responsiblity of the state to deal
           with this sort of thing?
        3. Why blame the feds for acting slowly when the states
           didn't ask for help for ~ 2 days? [ I could be wrong
           on the timeframe here
        \_ Hurray for narrow ideologies that oversimplify issues.  I think
           the problem with the federal response is that this catastrophe
           was predicted up to four years ago, yet the budget for building
           precautions to avert it has been consistently cut by this
           administration.  Then it's taken this long to bring to bear the
           official federal disaster relief agency, which should nominally
           be in charge since its supposed replacement has not yet been put
           in place.  If this is the response time for a predicted disaster
           with that many people who did not or could not evacuate, what's
           going to happen the next time an unpredicted disaster strikes?
        \_ So, you don't think FDR should of step in to revive the economy
           back in the 1930's, right?  Should we abolished EPA and SEC?
           \_ I think FDR over stepped the bounds of his authority
              in many cases (the USSC thought so as well). I'm not
              100% convinced that the EPA falls w/in the commerce
              pwr of Art 1 Sec 8, but its probably close. The SEC
              clearly falls under the commerce pwr, so congress
              has ever right to establish it.
              has every right to establish it.
              My argument is about separation of pwrs, the nature
              of our gov is that the states are independent from
              the fed gov and are responsible for administration
              of internal affiars. This is an internal affair,
              let the state deal w/ it UNLESS they ask for help
              from the feds. IF they ask for help from the feds
              and the feds mess it up, then its probably okay to
              evaluate the federal response. But evaluating the
              federal response prior to any state request is not
              valid. [ If I got the timeframe wrong, sorry to be
              a bother ]
              \_ hmm... state right again.  I thought those who
                 advocate "seperate but equal" use "state right" as
                 main arguement.  *FURTHER*  How about the Flood of
                 Mississippi in 1927, when bankers in New Orleans
                 decided to break the leeves to save New Orleans.
                 But the result was complete devistation to the country
                 side... State Supreme Court was completely aligned
                 with those white plantation owners / bankers, all
                 law suit was ruled in favor of those who were white.
                 You *PREFER* that kind of state right?  --non white
                 \_ The states are subordinate to the constitution
                    and separate but equal is incompatible w/ the
                    the 14th amd.
                    If the local gov/populace undertakes a measures
                    that is not in the best interest of the local
                    populace, the sol'n isn't to call in the feds.
                    The sol'n is to deal w/ it local. Or move.
                    Personally, I don't trust any gov. - local or
                    fed - to act in the best interests of the ppl.
                    But I think that the feds have even less interest
                    in acting responsibly than the locals, therefore
                    I am opposed to widespread fed intervention.
                    -also non-white
        \_ You _are_ wrong on the timeframe.  Blanco asked for financial
           assistance for facilitating evacuations on the 26th, when it
           became apparent that the storm (then a Cat IV, soon to be Cat V)
           was heading their way.  Why is a federal response needed?  Because
           preventing a meltdown of an entire region of our country is an
           integral part of protecting your precious markets.  This is a
           social, economic, and humanitarian crisis on our sovreign territory.
           \_ As I understand it, assistance for evacuation for the
              entire region was given by the fed gov (note more than
              just NO was affected). The problem w/ NO is that the
              local resources were not mobilized b/c of local gov
              inaction and local resident refusal. The fed gov
              should not be blamed for the actions of the local
              populace.
              My questions have nothing to do w/ mkts, &c. They
              are about separation of pwrs.  Shouldn't the states
              be responsible for themselves to a certain extent?
              Why should the fed gov be involved in everything
              immediately?
              Is it always true that a federal response will be
              superior to a local response (cf '89 quake)?
              [ Perhaps my views re this event are colored b/c I
                come from a part of the world where thousands
                of ppl die in floods every year and no one ever
                notices ]
              \_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard
              \_ http://tinyurl.com/deota (news.yahoo.com)
                 This was a failure of planning.  It's STILL failing.  There
                 are people waiting and wanting to help.  There is a breakdown
                 here that is resulting in people dying of dehydration and
                 illness on the streets of american cities.  When the federal
                 government has depleted the available national guard for the
                 states involved, it is THEIR responsibility to fill the gaps.
                 \_ A few questions:
                    1. Is the argument: the feds sent the NG from LA to
                       Iraq so that's why they weren't in NO to help w/
                       this mess?
                    \_ This is one portion of the argument that puts the onus
                       of insufficient resources for the state on the feds.
                    2. If this is the argument, is the assertion also
                       that so many NG are in Iraq that all of the NG
                       offered by the other states wouldn't have been
                       enough to deal w/ the situtaion?
                    \_ I don't know, and can't speak to it.  but you apparently
                       didn't read the article.  the request _was_ made for
                       more NG support and it languished in Washington (who
                       would, I suppose, have to approve any interstate troop
                       transfers).
                       \_ I got the impression that the delay was b/c LA
                          wanted to use the NG troops for police purposes
                          and hadn't put into place provisions for such
                          use in their agreements. I saw the delay as
                          shortsightedness on LA's part not as a failing
                          of the feds. [ I could be wrong ]
                    3. Assuming that the feds hadn't deployed the NG
                       to Iraq, is the assertion that there were enough
                       NG in NO to deal with the situtation in a better
                       manner?
                    4. If so, where is the proof that the NG in NO wouldn't
                       have been overwhelmed just like the NO cops were?
                       The whole city was flooded and most of the roads
                       were out. Unless you are claiming that the NG in NO
                       had a huge fleet of choppers and hovercraft, what
                       difference could it possibly have made - many of
                       the LA NG probably would have ended up dead as well.
                    \_ Wow.  Logical leap.  I don't know what their plan would
                       be but I would assume it would not include congregating
                       their forces in the center of Katrina's path and letting
                       it wipe them off the map.  Are you claiming that the LA
                       NG is a backwoods militia with a couple jeeps and some
                       armored bicycles?  I would think they would have large
                       vehicles and cargo movers that could be used as personnel
                       transports to help facillitate evacuations and high-water
                       vehicles, helicopters and boats to help in search and
                       rescue, and portable generators to keep hospitals
                       working.  Since these things didn't show up, I would
                       assume that they didn't have enough people and equipment
                       here.
                       \_ NO was prepared for a cat 3 or so hurricane, not
                          one this big. It was known that the best way to
                          survive was to evacuate, but the local gov didn't
                          handle that properly. If the NG had been in NO,
                          where is the proof that they could have handled
                          the situation better than the cops if the whole
                          place knew they couldn't have handled a situation
                          like this?
                    5. Assume that the NG hadn't been deployed to Iraq,
                       some (perhaps many) of the NG in LA would have
                       been outside of NO. What is the basis for a claim
                       that they could have rendered assistance to NO
                       in a better manner than external NG troops?
                    \_ How big do you think LA is?  The roads have been
                       passable enough for busses leaving.  I'm sure they could
                       get their armored bicycles through in less than 5 FUCKING
                       DAYS.
                       \_ This makes no difference. If the external
                          troops could have deployed as quickly as
                          the LA troops, then the fact that the LA
                          troops were not present does not change
                          anything.
                    While there may have been a failure of planning,
                    to me it seems to be a failure at a state level
                    not at a fed level. The fed response seems to be
                    sufficient.
                    \_ The president doesn't agree with you
                       \_ So what? I don't agree w/ the pres on many
                          things.
        \_ Hello jblack! Haven't seen you for a while. I miss you too.
           Did you have a blast at the golf course? Did you break 80?
        \_ Is this the same idiot who said he wouldn't donate money
           to natural disaster relief funds because we should
           instead be donating money to the "root of the problem"?
           \_ No. I donated money to this (and many other) relief
              efforts. I'm just not clear on why this is/should be
              a federal problem instead of a state problem (the
              states are free to ask for federal help, but until
              they do can/why should the feds get involved?)
        \_ Thank you for speaking out. Like you I'm a minority and I'm
           fed up with you socialists. I'm a believer in family
           values, moral values, free markets, small government, self-
           reliance, and fiscal rectitude. The New Orleans are like the
           grasshoppers who squander food and party everyday until
           winter comes. It's just a matter of time before they start
           begging for food. There's a saying that God helps those who
           help themselves. I'm sick and tired of having to pay
           for illegal immigrants and lazy people so that they can get
           a free education and free lunch. If the Orleans had any family
           values or work ethics they would work hard and support
           themselves.  Instead they leech off from hard honest working
           people. The fact that they loot and rape tells you the kind
           of people they are. They're worse than the grasshoppers and
           they have no sympathy from me.
           \_ This just has to be a troll.
              \- i'm sure this is a troll but to find a point in it
                 all ... i think there are tiers of govt involvement
                 there are tiers of government. it's quite under-
                 stanable the federal govt be the "backup" when the
                 state/local govt collapses. it's not like states should
                 only rely on "private point to point agreements"
                 with other public or private units ... again, analogosly
                 when orange county collapsed, the CA state steped in
                 and this is case the "buck" reasonably stopped with
                 the state. moving on from "tier of govt" to "tiers
                 of involvement/effort", i think even many non-fruitcake
                 libertarian and small-govt people would think it is
                 consistent with the mission of a "minimal state"
                 to provide order. moving on from there to the
                 provision of emergency clean water, doesnt seem
                 crazy talk. there is a decent prima facie economic
                 case to think the govt should be responsible for
                 public goods like levy's ... surely even more so
                 public goods like levees ... surely even more so
                 than the classic case of lighthouses, which are a
                 sop to the shipping industry by and large [yes, i
                 am aware of some cliams of the possibility of private
                 lighthouses]. this level of involvement, does not
                 seem at odds with federal involvement in the new
                 bay bridge, or ANWAR, or Bob's Expensive Alaskan
                 Bridge or the Army Corps of Engineers dredging
                 channels for oil tankers or the Fed govt researching
                 AIDS or cancer. but finally, if we are talking should the
                 govt be involved in "making people whole", i do agree
                 this seems problematic. i personally have not heard a
                 good rational [as opposed to political or senitmental]
                 case for why there should have been a special compensation
                 fund for 9/11 victims. i think vastly increasing the
                 death benefits for military KIA or firefighters and such
                 KIA at home should be given relatively more. --psb
                 \_ Orange County is paying the bonds off with their
                    own money. The State didn't bail them out.
                    \- the state did step in in the short term.
                       if you want to send LA a bill for the
                       water delivered later, i guess you can do
                       so. should the state send a bill to people
                       for firefighting services? or just get out
                         \_ they do.  it's called "taxes".
                       of the firefighting business? i think there
                       is a difference between firefighting and
                       rescuing people from mt mckinley. and
                       remember at least some of the hypociritical
                       conservatives [not the libertarians in this
                       case] wnat the FED GOVT to be involved in
                       protecting "traditional marriages" from
                       assmaster and deviant marriages. maybe
                       scalia will claim the state will make it
                       iillegal for people to build PRIVATE LEVEES
                       or drink non-govt suppplied water ... oh wait
                       in some countries where water provision has been
                       made private they *have* passed laws making it
                       illegal to collect your own water.
                       (BTW, I am not familiar with the details of
                       how the orange county matter was settled
                       but i do believe there was some assistance
                       in buying htem time to restructure [that's
                       part of the point of bankrupty gradations]
                       and there may have been some "repuational
                       assistance" to help them lower their
                       interest rates when they went back into
                       the borrowing pool).
                       \_ Hey Partha, I think you should work on making your
                          writing look a little less like verbal vomit.
                            -- ilyas (friendly neighborhood total dumbass)
                               \- verbal vomit >> mental vomit
                                  i think a point of intersection of
                                  my moral and your political philosophy
                                  is the state should not compel you to
                                  vomit or read. however you may wish to
                                  read Rochin v. California and vomit.
                                  http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/333
                                  --psb
                                  \_ I think the state should make an exception
                                     in your case, since you are a pol pot
                                     in training.  You know, the counterfactual
                                     golden rule -- do onto others as they
                                     would have done onto you if they only
                                     could.  -- ilyas
                                     \- well i think i'd do a lot of good
                                        early in my tenure as pol pot ...
                                        i acknowledge things might get
                                        carried away after a while. i mean
                                        we can all agree on tunring the
                                        out of hand after a while. i mean
                                        we can all agree on tunring The
                                        Donald into Trump Carpaccio, right?
                                        \_ You give yourself too much credit.
                                             -- psb for fertilizer 2008
                        \_ We used to have private fire companies whose
                           services were paid for by the insurance companies.
                           I think all fire fighting is public in the US now.
                           I wonder if it's now illegal to operate a private
                           fire company or merely just uneconomical.
                           \_ I know someone who works for one, but he only
                              does forest fires, and he said his unit is the
                              only one he knows of that's private.  He likes it.
                           \- well there were medival "law merchants" too.
                              doesnt mean today the govt should get out of
                              the business of business law. i supposed
                              gated communities can choose to have their
                              own fire fighters and that may get into
                              messy situations like private firefighting
                              companies "poaching" FFs trained on the public
                              dime. with an "arragement" like that it may
                              be "economical" ... OWNERSHIP SOCIETY.
                              i shall now watch CHEF DU FER instead of the motd.
                              \_ Chef du fer?  I'll be playing chemin de fer
                                 tomorrow.  BTW, much of the business of the
                                 legal system is now handled by private
                                 arbitrators.
                                 \- yes and lots of people put out their own
                                    kitchen fires. that's why i wrote
                                    "get out of business law" not 'have a
                                    monopoly on dispute resolution".
                                    they do have a monopoly on criminal
                                    prosecution.
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39459 Activity:nil
9/2     The big disconnect on New Orleans --
        The official version; then there's the in-the-trenches version
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html
        \_ When the feds are being this fucktarded and stupid, even the MSM
           can see it.
        \_ FEMA head wants to be the next Iraqi Information Minister.
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39458 Activity:nil
9/2     Bush in Biloxi - real life becomes SNL skit:
        http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/02/vo.bush.biloxi.families.cnn
        \_ Sorry, but can you tell me how is it that Bush hugging
           hurricane victims, holding hands with relief workers,
           and giving out words of comfort while the victims thank
           him... how that's suppose to make Bush look bad? Hello?
           Looks like 2008 will belong to Jeb Bush. Sad day for the
           victims, sad realization for all of us.
              \_ I guess you didn't see the horrible irony of his clue-free
                 conversation with the two black women, but oh well.
                 \_ That is how you, 48% of the people think. 52% will look
                    at the images and say "Our great chief is so brave to
                    show up in Louisiana! And he gives hugs and support
                    to those in trouble. I'm so proud I voted for him!!!"
                    \_ I dunno, I hear people are already calling New Orleans
                       "Lake George."
                       \_ Only in the People's DemoKratic Republic of
                          Berserkeley.
2005/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39452 Activity:nil
9/1     They should just take New Orleans off the U.S. map and rename it
        to Gulf of George Bush, in honor of our great president George Bush.
           \_ Pho Toop?
2005/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39449 Activity:nil
9/2     Ha-ha
        http://drudgereport.com had a photo of Dubya talking with the two African
        American women.  Then I submitted aspo's transcript and the motd link
        to the CNN video.  15 minutes later and the photo's no longer there.
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:39447 Activity:low
9/2     I guess America let its national geographic subscription lapse
        this is from last year
        http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5 - danh
        \_ Yeah, but New Orleans is full of poor black people.  Who gives a
           fuck about them?
           \_ Plus all of the evil-doers in NO. After years and years of
              eating shrimp, they get their just desserts! God hates
              crustatean eaters!
              \_ http://www.godhatesfigs.com
              \_ That's "Freedom Shrimp" to you.
        \_ Nor Scientific American from 4 years ago: http://csua.org/u/d8l
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39446 Activity:nil
9/2     The GOP is on the case to save America and New Orleans - the solutiom?
        Another tax cut!
        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_08_28.php#006382
        \_ We're going to have daily 4 hour meetings until we figure out why
           morale and productivity are so low!
2005/9/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:39443 Activity:nil
9/2     fallout on yahoo from language of photo captions:
        http://news.yahoo.com/page/photostatement
        (apologize if a repost)  - rory
                \_ what did i do? here go read the comments of the
                   guy who took the photo
        http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17204#26
        search for "Jeasus" - danh
        \_ Censoring history to appease the politically correct.  Yeah, that's
           progress.
           \_ And a big thanks goes to danh for doing his part to kick
              AFP off yahoo.  We have too much information anyway.
                \_ what did i do? here go read the comments of the
                   guy who took the photo
        http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17204#26
        search for "Jeasus" - danh
                   \_ "white people find things:  http://redirx.com/?3h1a
                      black people loot:  http://redirx.com/?3h1f - danh"
                      Now, do you really believe there was racism involved
                      in the captions?
                      \_ I think it is quite likely that the photographer
                         would have captioned it differently if he were
                         shooting black people, yes.  -tom
                         \_ Instead of guessing, why not read the captioner's
                            comment?
                            \_ I did.  -tom
                               \_ Then perhaps you'd like to explain why (after
                                  reading it) you've completely ignored it?
                                  \_ what is the guy gonna say?  "I have an
                                     ingrained fear of black people, and I
                                     don't want to portray white people in
                                     a negative light"?  Look, I don't think
                                     he's Jesse Helms or anything like that,
                                     but this is a pretty clear example of
                                     how deeply ingrained racial stereotypes
                                     are in our society.  -tom
                                     \_ Yeah, they're so ingrained tom
                                        sees them where they don't even
                                        exist. -jrleek
                         \_ When has tom ever allowed fact to sway his opinion?
                            Looks like my assessment was correct:  the white
                            people in the picture found stuff floating near a
                            store.  Tom you are such an idiot.
                \_ you think maybe i've changed my mind and I am posting
                   the comments of the original photographer? - danh
                   \_ Right.  And your original post and the many other by
                      like-minded people is what got AFP to withdraw their
                      photos.  I'm glad that you've changed your mind now,
                      but didn't you do your part in getting AFP to leave?
                \_ it looks like the guy was stressed out... i dunno
                   if he would have written something different if it
                   were a bunch of black people.  hard to say.  i also
                   really hate new orleans.  - danh
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39438 Activity:low
9/1     Guess why the FEMA reaction is a mess?
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.fema.brown/index.html
        \_ Getting out of a city costs money.  Most of the people who stayed
           are either poor and can't afford to get out of the city or were
           unable to leave on short notice.  If a government evacuates a city
           they need to fund the evacuation and find people shelter.  This
           reads like someone blaming to poor for , well, being poor.
           \_ http://csua.org/u/d8d [nyt]
              "City officials said they provided free transportation from
              pick-up points publicized on television, radio and by people
              shouting through megaphones on the streets. In addition to the
              Superdome, officials opened schools and the convention center
              as shelters."
              \_ "Shelters" that had no food, water, working sanitation...
                 This was and is FUCKED.
              \_ Six rapes and three murders a night IN THE SHELTER.
                 \- Blob Dylan: Gimme Shelter
                 \_ Kinda makes you wonder how many murders & rapes a night
                    in NO back when it wasn't submerged.
                    \_ New Orleans had the highest murder rate last year.
2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39434 Activity:nil
9/1     Germany on Katrina:
        http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372425,00.html
        \_ America on Katrina:
        http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/09/lead-religious-right-group-promotes.html
        \_ I find this article to be just as tasteless as what it's
           complaining about.
               "It's not the American people's fault that the storm hit
               and they couldn't have stopped it. The Germans, on the
               other hand, could have done a lot to prevent World War
               II. And yet, care packages still rained down from US
               troops. Trittin's know-it-all stance is therefore not
               only tasteless, it is also historically blind."
2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39430 Activity:low
9/1     Jesus.  This is happening in America.  Where are the troops?  Where is
        the federal government?  Why the fuck is Dubya blathering about gas
        prices?  What the fucking fuck?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_52
        \_ Where were the federal troops to stop looting and anarchy in nyc
           on 9/11?  Answer: they didn't FUCKING need them, because new york's
           local emergency services are outstanding and did their job, and the
           people of new york reacted to the crisis by *stopping* crime on
           their own rathar than resorting to barbarism.  This is not about
           the federal government, it's about some states having their shit
           together(read:blue states), and some being third world countries
           living on the dole from blue state tax dollars.
           \_ Comparing the situation in New Orleans to any other disaster in
              recent memory, including the tsunami and 9/11, is fruitless.
              There are no analogies to be be made. Please stop.
           \_ Do you not remember the immediatly after 9/11 the National Guard
              and army showed en masse and were being extremely active in
              patroling and keeping chaos down?  You needed proof that
              you lived below 14th street to go anywhere near that section
              of the city.  The reason New Orleans has descended into chaos
              is the disaster management wasn't there.  No management, no
              food, no water, people feel they are elft out to die there.
              It's been days now.  People are going crazy.
        \_ Where are the troops?  State governers control the National Guard.
           There's a law against active-duty federal military performing
           domestic law enforcement.  Why the concern over gas prices?  The
           reality is that, as awful as the human toll of Katrina may be, the
           greater and more important threat to the nation is damage to the oil
           infrastructure.  Apart from the oil, LA, AL, and MS are relatively
           unimportant states.
           \- "Fuck the Delta Blacks, they dont vote for us anyway." -K.ROVE
        \_ The LA National Guard is in Iraq.
2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:39429 Activity:nil
9/1     Hastert to city: Drop dead.
        http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/342517p-292444c.html
        \_ "But you know we build Los Angeles and San Francisco on top of
           earthquake fissures and they rebuild too. Stubbornness."
           he meant 'stubbornness' in a good way right
        \_ Really nice thing to say while dead bodies are floating in the
           streets.
           He meant 'stubbornness' in the good way right
2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39428 Activity:nil
9/1     Katrina is definitely looking good for Bush. It takes our
        attention away from our military disasters, like
        Operation Iraqi Orphans.
        \_ and Operation Karl Rove
                \_ Did he do something naughty? I've forgotten ...
2005/9/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39426 Activity:nil
9/1     For those who think the hurricane is making Bush look bad, please
        think again from the perspective of conservatives. Remember 911?
        While liberals say there's intelligence failure and point out
        to other facts, conservatives look at Bush as the hero. He goes
        on TV & radio and tells everyone that he'll do whatever it takes
        to provide peace|safety|security|whatever, and each time that
        happens his approval rating goes up. 911 proved that facts and
        smarts don't matter to most Americans! What matters is how strong
        you project your images on media and the hurricane will prove
        just that. It's happening again. Bush is saying how many troops
        or help is on the way to Louisiana while ignoring the obviously
        bad things that are going on. Liberals, wake up! FORGET ALL FACTS AND
        FIGURES!!! The hurricane is Bush's free ticket on media and
        this is exactly why the conservatives will keep supporting
        our chief no matter what. The hurricane isn't making Bush look
        bad. It is making Bush look good. REALLY GOOD.
        \_ I think it's far too early to make a declaration on the political
           fallout.  People across the spectrum are pissed that he didn't
           come back from the ranch as soon as it was clear this was going
           to be BIG.  I heard a few times on cnn the sentiment of "is he
           _still_ on vacation?"
           \_ Who the hell watches CNN besides liberals? Fox News is THE MOST
           \_ Who the hell watches CNN besides gays? Fox News is THE MOST
              WATCHED NEWS IN THE US! Since Fox News is pro-Bush and the
              MOST WATCHED NEWS, what matters is what Fox News says.
              \_ Gays are being denied FEMA aid.  Santa Monica has sent
                 aid earmarked for Gays. -tyms
              \_ http://foxnews.com:  'We Don't Have Help'
        \_ If Bush was actually leading that would be true, but he has done
           a really shitty job of the whole leading thing.  Plus the absolutly
           inept job of evacuating NO looks worse by the hour, especially
           considering all that money sunk on terrorism preparedness.  Gee
           shouldn't they have a plan for evacuating the city by now?
        \_ If the guitar picture gets play, say goodbye to the Midterms.
                         \- President My Pet Goat brought low trying
                            to be a Dixie Hick? too bad there wasnt a
                            bottle of JD in the picture.
           \_ url?
              \_ http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856
                 \_ That G chord is on the wrong fret.
2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39425 Activity:low
9/1     "The question this hour is: How would you rate the response of the
        federal government to Hurricane Katrina? ... we got 500-600 letters
        before the show even went on the air. No one -- no one -- says the
        federal government is doing a good job in handling one of the most
        atrocious and embarrassing and far-reaching and calamitous things that
        has come along in this country in my lifetime. I'm 62, I remember the
        riots in Watts, I remember the earthquake in San Francisco. I remember
        a lot of things. I have never, ever, seen anything as badly bungled
        and poorly handled as this situation in New Orleans. Where the hell is
        the water for these people? Why canít sandwiches be dropped to
        those people who are in that Superdome down there? I mean, what is
        going -- this is Thursday. This storm happened five days ago."
        -Jack Cafferty, CNN
        \_ Ok, good. Meanwhile, Fox News, the most watched news in the US
           and trusted by more than 50% of the Americans, say that Louisiana
           is the fault of the state. States should handle their own affairs.
           Similarly, libertarians who usually side with the Bushies will
           say that the disaster is the fault of the people. The smart ones
           should have left long time ago, and the lazy/dumb ones should
           have stocked up water, food, and weapons. No one can take care
           of yourself better than yourself. That's the libertarian mentality
           \_ Fox News says it's the state's fault?
           \_ Yeah if yer smart you don't get pregnant or old or disabled when
              you know a hurricane is on the way!
              \_ And you don't let your national guard guys go and die in a
                 silly place like iraq.  man.  those LAites were just asking
                 for it.
              \_ Worse, they commited the crime of being poor.
        \_ Of course, in the other cases, the streets weren't flooded.  It's
           kind of hard to do rescue/recovery work when you can only use boats
           and the majority of your response vehicles are wheeled.
           \_ Which is what i would expect the BILLIONS for DHS would go toward
              developing a plan for.  But I guess that's too much to ask.
              Yup. it is:
              Yup. it is:  http://csua.org/u/d8b (bestofneworleans.com)
              \_ I should probably mention the speech I had to sit through at
                 a conference given by the lt. governor of Indiana, describing
                 how they were spending $5 BILLION to thwart agroterrorism
                 in Indiana.  That's right, 5 billion.  That's a lot of
                 blankets and water supplies.  Now picture a room full of the
                 cream of US corporate IT security management, including some
                 FBI guys just burying their heads in their hands and groaning.
                 Just thought I should mention that, yes.  -John
           http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-28/cover_story2.html
                 \_ I didn't know anyone cared about Indiana.
           \_ "Why can't sandwiches be dropped"
           \_ "Why can't po'boys be dropped"
2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39423 Activity:high
9/1     I'm listening to CNN and I can't believe how HAPPY the
        news reporters sound at describing the terrible situation
        in New Orleans. Has anyone else noticed this? Is anyone
        else disturbed by this?
        \_ anything that makes Bush looks bad is worth it.
           \_ Bush is looking bad b/c of the hurricane? I didn't
              pick up on that.
              \_ The Federal Government in general looks slow and incompetant.
                 Bush II is the face of the government. And he himself is
                 reacting slowly on the disaster relief front.
                 \_ Well he did have a b-day party for McCain and guitar
                    practice to attend.
                    \_ And he did declare LA a disaster area before the party.
        \_ Someone deleted my comment, but I think blonde folksy robotic
           news anchors are par for the course nowadays.  Just look at Fox
           News - they use an equivalent tone to report news on Bennifer
           as they do for Iraq.
           \_ You'd be like that too with a face full of botox and body
              swimming in uppers and downers.
2005/9/1-2 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39419 Activity:low
9/1     In the light of gas shortages, doesn't it make sense for the
        GOVERNMENT to say something about conservation? In my country,
        we get government messages on TV regarding typhoon, gas shortages,
        electricity conservation, and general things to help calm the people.
        Doesn't the US government care about its people?
        \_ President Bush "hoped" people would conserve gas ... Of course that
           immediately caused a run on gas stations, producing the opposite
           result ... You have to remember the faith-based reality the current
           administration lives in: there are no shortages, nothing ever runs
           out and the invisible hand of Adam Smith and/or God always provides
           in the end.  That makes it a bit harder to deal with reality.
           \_ What is your name son? We would like to talk to you, in
              private.                                  -The Bush People
        \_ US EPA: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/mpg.htm
           US DOE: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
           These sites have been around for years.
           \_ This is as useful as having it on display in the bottom of a
              locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign
              on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard."
              \_ Care to help spread the word?
        \_ The "government" cares more about protecting the profits of
           corporations and getting reelected.  Remember the "John Jerry
           thinks we should tax gasoline so people drive less" ads?  Very
           effective if totally fabricated.
           \_ No, where can I find this ad?
                \_ I can't find the ad but here's a reference to it:
                   http://www.bestoftheblogs.com/2004_03_30_bestof.html
2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39407 Activity:nil
9/1     "Bush rejects foreign help, says United States could take care
        of itself... Bush defended the federal government's response to
        the growing crisis amid urgent pleas for help from stranded victims.
        He said the breach of the levees that led to the submerging of much
        of New Orleans had not been anticipated."
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/weather_bush_dc
        Why does Reuters hate GW Bush?
        \_ You can criticize Bush without the "why does xyz hate" line.
        \_ "The breach had not been anticipated" -- sounds a bit like "who
           knew there were no WMDs" -- Faith based administration!
        \_ So we are doing what India initially did during the tsunami,
           rejecting foreign help out of national pride.
        \_ Whoops! Now US accepting aid...
           http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-01-foreignaidkatrina_x.htm
2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39398 Activity:nil
9/1     Liberal: Katrina is Bush's fault
        Conservative: Katrina is the terrorists' fault
        Libertarian: Katrina is the residents' fault
        Christian: Katrina is our fault for supporting gays and lesbians
        Muslim: Katrina is punishment for occupying sacred Arab land
        Bhuddism: Katrina is no one's fault
        \_ You aren't too bright, are you?
        CSUA: It is yermom's fault
        \_ I disagree. It's never yermom's fault. yermom is just yermom.
        \_ The hurricane is no one's fault. The lack of response/prep,
           however, is the fault of a someone or group of someones.
           \_ Who are you, humourless motd lamer?
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39402 Activity:nil
8/31    Yay humanity
        http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1174992&forum_id=26
        \_ Where are the National Guards to protect the people? This is sad.
           Orlean libertarians everywhere, helping themselves. Shame. Shame.
           \- in fairness, these arent libertarians. although in extra
              fairness, most libertarians i've met arent libertarians either.
           \_ NO libertarians are the ones most likely to have guns, a working
              generator and food/water storage and least in need of help.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39401 Activity:nil
8/31    http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/31/233427.shtml
        Dems blaming Bush for Katrina.
        \_ In other news, statue of elvis found on Mars!
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car] UID:39400 Activity:nil
8/31    Exactly how deregulated is the gasoline industry? In the light of
        less gas due to Katrina, isn't it possible that they pull an Enron?
        \_ Why? There is no need to fake a crisis.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39392 Activity:high
8/31    Poll: Did you / are you going to donate more/same/less for the Katrina
        relief effort than what you donated for the South Asia Tsunami relief
        effort?
        More            :
        Same            : .
        Less            : .
        Not decided yet : .
        0               : .
        0 in both cases : ..
        \_ I need to defend my reasoning. Donating after a disaster is like
           volunteering to serve food to starving people during Thanksgiving.
           While the gesture is noble, people need food the other 364 days.
           Just because you are nice one day, doesn't mean these people
           will have the means to survive later on. It is thus a shallow
           gesture, and doesn't solve the root of the problem. I don't
           believe in a one-time effort. I believe in a long term, consist
           solution to the root of the problem, like educating people to
           improve their lives, saving up national treasury for rainy days,
           or better yet, make the drastic move to turn US more like Denmark
           where there are no poor people to kill/starve themselves.
           Unfortunately the US government will never do anything. It has
           a history of irresponsively externalizing problems to someone or
           somewhere else. The US has this mentality that if something goes
           wrong with your life, it is always your fault. Well, that is just
           heartless, selfish, and wrong. Your problem is my problem, and
           my problem is your problem.
           my problem is your problem. Let's help each other out. Help
           me turn the profit oriented, corporate-run America into a nation
           that has more compassion for its people. Join my revolution
           and no one will ever have to worry trivial things like donations.
           Help me a little and everyone will be greatly rewarded.  !che
           \_ This is stupid for many reasons, here are some:
                1. The U.S. government has already allocated billions to
                   save New Orleans. Since we all pay taxes, and since
                   California gets only about 80 cents on the dollar for
                   taxes sent to D.C., we are all already footing the bill.
                2. Americans are amongst the highest, if not the highest,
                   donors in the world. On a per capita basis, Americans will
                   donate more to more causes than any other society on the
                   face of the planet.
                3. America is exceedingly diverse. Denmark isn't. You can't
                   compare a dinky country like Denmark to the U.S. In fact,
                   you can't really compare any country to the U.S. The U.S.
                   is unique in terms of composition of its populace and its
                   place in geopolitics.
                4. The U.S. is also the most generous internationally. It
                   gives out more aid to the world than any other country.
              \_ USA actually ranks close to last in aid on a per-capita basis.
                 http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html
           \_ God, I can just feel my brain cells dying. -- ilyas
              \_ !che is pretty anti libertarian. Sorry ilyas, I'll be happy
                 to see self-absorbed people like you die.
                 \_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most assuredly,
                    yourself.  The difference between you and me, is that I am
                    willing to 'live and let live.'  You, on the other hand,
                    wish me dead.  Now lecture me some more about my immorality.
                      -- ilyas
                 \_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most
                    assuredly, yourself.  The difference between you and me,
                    is that I am willing to 'live and let live.'  You, on
                    the other hand, wish me dead.  Now lecture me some more
                    about my immorality. -- ilyas
                    \_ "Almost everyone is self absorbed" is a blatant
                       generalization, and almost certainly false.
                       \_ And calling me self-absorbed without knowing anything
                          about my life is what?  You make me laugh. -- ilyas
                          \_ I wasn't the person that wants you to die.  I
                             want you to live!  The motd would be a less
                             entertaining place without you, ilyas. -pp
                    \_ Can you please explain why there are so many people
                       out there volunteering for nothing in return?
                       \_ Because it makes them feel good.  "But that's not
                          what self-absorbed usually means!" you ll cry.
                          My response: "how did the pp know I was self-absorbed
                          in that sense?" -- ilyas
                    \_ not the pp but I wish you were dead because you can't
                       fucking conform to 80 columns. asshole.
                       \_ You make me proud to call myself a nerd.
           \_ I believe in helping people in both cases dumbass.
              \- "live and let live" when actually "live and 'there is no
                 and'" is just sloganeering. the point is that some people
                 are not "and living" ... without help, the will have a
                 signifiant probability of dying and almost no chance to
                 improve their lot in life [nozick's idea of "life chances"].
                 i believe most of the poverty in this country is not, in
                 jeffrey sachs poignant expression, "the poverty that kills".
                 "live and let live" in the global context [as opposed to
                 say discussions about say social agenda in the us ... drug
                 legalization, assmaster marriage etc] is like saying "i
                 believe in equality ... i am happy not giving medicine to
                 the sick *and* the well". see e.g. A. K. Sen "equallity of
                 what" essay/sppech.
                 what" essay/speech. maybe you can change you slogan to
                 "live and whatever".
                 \_ Partha you don't strike me as particularly dumb, but when
                    it comes to libertarian stuff it's like most of your brain
                    just shuts off.  'Live and let live' is about applications
                    of state power, not a statement about how one ought to live
                    one's life morally.  -- ilyas
                    \_ It warms the cockles of my heart to know that somewhere
                       a taxpayer is being forced at gunpoint to pay for
                       ilyas to write these sentences for us all to see.
                       \_ See, Eli, you don't understand selfish behavior.
                          The libertarian answer to a non-libertarian society
                          is to game it for all it's worth while pointing
                          and laughing.  -- ilyas
                    \- i dont think that is true. i just dont fall for the
                       artificial boundaries libertarians of moderate
                       sophistication draw. first of all, a lot of these
                       people will change their tune when they need the help
                       [orange county bail out] and there really diffcult
                       problems of "too big to fail" [what is the liberaltarian
                       answer to LTCM?]. this thread began with the idea of
                       resource allocation not political liberty, so i think
                       my continuing to think in that mode is not unreasonable.
                       i'm actually fairly libertarian when it comes to
                       people playing on a level playing field except
                       one has to distinguish between "if i were king"
                       and "what do we do now" scenarios that take the
                       the status quo as a given [like you can be opposed
                       to the iraq war yet feel we cant leave now].
                       it may be an interesting academic discussion whether
                       something like federal deposit insurance is a good
                       or bad thing from a libertarian perspective, but i
                       think the libertaian perspective has little to say
                       about what to do about the hundreds of thousands of
                       people dying of malaria. i dont really care if you
                       want to throw terms like "state power" around ...
                       when discussing charity, those are the types of
                       questions that concerns me, not cancer research
                       or school vouchers etc. anyway, i was not making
                       abscract ethical statements like "do not lie" but
                       my conception of "distributive justice".
                       \_ Artificial boundaries my ass.  Do you fall for
                          artificial boundaries between moderate socialists
                          and communists?  Why are libertarians so different
                          all of a sudden?  If voluntary charity concerns you,
                          libertarians have nothing to say about it (not being
                          moral philosophers).  Any other kind of charity falls
                          under the rubric of 'state power.' -- ilyas
                          \- i am not defending socialism, communism, anachists
                             trostskiites, marxists, democrats xtian fruitcakes
                             randroids, bolshvicks, mamuluks, baski bazouks or
                             any other group in particular. there are a couple
                             smart people i list [including the leading light
                             of smart libertarians, nozick]. i am criticizing
                             libertairians here because they are the "live
                             and let live" party. if you want to have a thread
                             on environmental legislation ot affirmative
                             action or regulation of barbers or hollywood's
                             role in diverting $ to pet medical projects
                             i would probably attack some non-libertarian
                             group. i have said before a lot of liberals
                             operate with the assumetion "poor people are
                             stupid" and get defensive when you call them on
                             it. i think they shoudl acknowledge that as an
                             operating assumeption but they cant have it both
                             ways. libertarianism may have more theoretical
                             parsimony but has some big empirical problems.
                             for example if state A > B it not not necessarily
                             true that C "near" A is better than A. see e.g.
                             Cancun Fuck You. for the record, i think
                             televanglists are worse than libertarians.
                             BTW, are you controled in part by Sander Greenland
                             in addition to Judah Pearl? --psb
                             \_ While I am sure you have some choice words to
                                say about certain Christians (perhaps on wall)
                                all I see from you on the motd is libertarian
                                bashing.  Libertarians come across as your
                                favorite political punching bag for some reason,
                                which I find odd because they, as a group, are
                                responsible for none of the things you find
                                annoying (parasite CEOs, etc).  In fact, as a
                                party they are responsible for next to nothing,
                                good or ill.  Why do you care suddenly about
                                my Sith Lords?  I sat in on Greenland's class,
                                and found him annoying.  I couldn't exactly
                                figure out why.  It's 'Judea' btw. -- ilyas
                                \- when i go to parties with communists in
                                   berkeley, then i attack them. i didnt
                                   realize i had to give equal time to who i
                                   "bash" on the wall/motd. maybe you can
                                   search the wall logs/kchang logs for my
                                   comments on ALGOR and BILLARY. it's not
                                   my fault hillary is no longer public enemy
                                   number one. did sander show you his large
                                   telescope?
                                   \_ You know, if he offered to show me his
                                      large telescope, I don't think I would
                                      have taken him up on it.  Do you collect
                                      smart people you know like trophies?
                                      You know, collecting things is the
                                      economic prism through which a
                                      'merchant soul' (Plato) views acquisition
                                      of knowledge. -- ilyas
                                      \- i know ander via the person who was
                                      \- i met sander via the person who was
                                      \- i know sander via the person who was
                                         hiding in the closet in a previous
                                         motd post. i think his house
                                         used to be owned by a sex cult or some
                                      \- i met sander via the chick who was
                                         hidining in the closet in a previous
                                         motd post/wall. i think his house
                                         use to be owned by a sex cult or some
                                         thing like that. that is where he
                                         keeps his large telescope. he also
                                         has a large skaeboard, which i thought
                                         was sort of pecular. hey ididnt know
                                         according to JP terry speed was
                                         involved in the OJ trial.
                          libertarians have nothing to say about it.  Any
                          other kind of charity falls under the rubrik of
                          'state power.' -- ilyas
                                figure out why. -- ilyas
                                         keeps his large telescope.
                                         involved in the OF trial.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39391 Activity:low
8/31    Local New Orleans paper predicted this problem almost exactly about 3
        years ago:
        http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/harmsway_1.html
        \_ John McPhee predicted this back in 1989. Great Book:
           http://www.johnmcphee.com/controlofnature.htm
           \_ And who came along to cut the funding for the Army corps of
              eng. to work on it?
              \_ Bush, but it was Clinton's fault.
              \_ Just curious, but why do the Feds pay for this? Shouldn't
                 the local tax base pay for it? Touching on the comment
                 someone else made about CA tax dollars leaving the state,
                 why should CA dollars be used to build a bridge in TN or
                 a levy in LA?
                 \_ If you believe that then you also believe we shouldn't
                    have federal taxes higher than required to maintain a
                    national military and little else.  Is that so?
                    \_ Sort of. I think there are other programs other
                       than defense that deserve federal funding, but a
                       lot of this should be handled at the state and
                       local levels.
                    \_ Sort of. I think there are programs other than defense
                       that deserve federal funding, but a lot of this should
                       be handled at the state and local levels.
                        \_ Is this what Federalism means? I help myself
                           and you help yourself?
                           \_ Is that a rhetorical question?
                           \_ And that is why the Kurds and the Sunnis want it.
2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39385 Activity:moderate
8/31    Quick motd list.  Hurricane Katrina related songs!  I'll start:
        Led Zeppelin, "When The Levee Breaks"
        Simon and Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"
        Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
        Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
        Metallica, "The God That Failed"
        \_ Now it's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge.
        \_ It's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge now.
        Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
        Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
           \_ We already have Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
              MS and AL apparently.  God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
              the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
        Metallica, "The God That Failed"
        Tchaikovsky, The 1812 Overture
        \_ Why?
        Bob Dylan, "Like a Hurricane"
        Bob Dylan, "The God That Failed"
        Bob Dylan, "Blowing in the Wind"
        "Row, Row, Row Your Boat", the last line being "Life is but a dream".
        Peter Gabriel, "Here Comes the Flood"
        \_ Bob Dylan, right?
           \_ It's the kid song:
              "Row, row, row your boat,
               Gently down the stream.
               Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
               Life is but a dream."
               \_ Life is not a dream. -spock
        Bob Dylan, "Here Comes the Flood"
        Bob Dylan, "Down in the Flood"
        Elvis Costello, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
        Bob Dylan, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
        James Carville, "I am a very wet Cajun"
        \_ U2 "Summer Rain"
        \_ Bod Dylan, "Summer Rain"
        \_ Johnny Cash: "Three Feet High and Rising"
        Jars of Clay, "Flood"
        \_ Did this Bob Dylan guy have a bad childhood filled with bad weather
           or something?
           \_ Blob Dylan: Where the Street have no name
2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39384 Activity:nil
8/31    Foamy Squirrel hurricane special: http://csua.org/u/d7k
        \_ http://csua.org is down. This is exactly why I prefer other superior
           sites like http://tinyurl.com. http://csua.org simply can't match the
           scalability and reliability of http://tinyurl.com.
           \_ Scalability of this type of application isn't really an issue.
           \_ http://tinyurl.com was down for ~ 3 hours 2 weeks ago in the middle of
              the day (that I noticed)
           \_ http://csua.org/u also has:
              * list of recent and popular links
              * lists of recent and popular links
              * rss feed of same
              * cached copies of HTML pages
              --dbushong
           \_ http://csua.org/u doesn't have:
              * ads
        \_ This appears to be something available on http://illwillpress.com
           Why bother with http://csua.org.
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39381 Activity:moderate
8/31    Along the lines of fundamentalist idiots saying that HIV is God's
        way of punishing gays, is Katrina God's way of punishing
        fundamentalist idiots who voted for Bush?
        \_ I think coastal urban areas vote democrat even in the South. I'm
           pretty sure New Orleans is overwhelmingly Democratic.  And yes,
           I'm guessing that as with 9/11 we'll be hearing from the bible
           thumping pig fuckers about why this is happening.
        \_ We already have.  Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
           MS and AL apparently.  God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
           the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
        \_ No.  It's God's Will.  You heathens can't possibly fathom what
           that means.
        \_ What are you, a stupid liberal? Katrina is God's way of punishing
           U.S. for not kicking out all the gays and lesbians to Canada.
           Speaking of Canada they're gonna get it.     -Christian Fundie
           \_ I thought this was God's way of punishing the insurance
              industry for the sin of greed.
              \_ Good one!
           \_ If that's the case, there should be earthquakes in CA instead of
              one of bush's states.
              hurricanes in one of bush's states.
        \_ Katrina is an omen to the housing market that is about to crash
           and trash like we never seen before. It is a punishment for you
           capitalists trying to gobble up precious resources in the name
           of "using money to make money", and as a result re-create
           Capitalist Monarchy and class hierarchy in the society.
           \_ The housing market is going crash in the southeastern states.
        \_ Apparently some read fundie groups are claiming it is God punishing
           New Orleans for being "sinful":
           http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/08/31/cause/index.html
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39380 Activity:high
8/31    Ok, I thought blaming Bush for the levees breaking was stretching
        things a bit, then I run into this:

        "It appears that the money has been moved in the presidents budget
         to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose thats
         the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees cant be
         finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that
         this is a security issue for us."

         Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish,
         Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004
        \_ Parish is a dissent and will be going to Guantanamo Bay soon.
                \_ Idiot! "Parish" is the Lousiana term for district/county;
                   and "Jefferson" being the name of the Parish.
                   \_ Hence further proof that Liberals are idiots.
                      \_ Illogical. If you see a stupid American, does that
                         mean all Americans are stupid? No. Your statement
                         is proof however that _you_ are an idiot.
                   \_ Mr. Parish is also "a dissent".
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39377 Activity:nil
8/31    white people find things:  http://redirx.com/?3h1a
        black people loot:  http://redirx.com/?3h1f - danh
        \_ Note the difference in quantity.  Also the 8-hour difference in the
           time of the photos (i.e. attitudes may have changed in that time).
           \_ Don't you think "finding bread and soda from a local grocery
              store" is pretty strange language, no matter what the quantity
              or timing is?  -tom
              \_ Yes, but why the assumption that race makes the difference?
                 Also, if the items were found outside of the store (floated
                 out, etc.) what would you call it?
                 \_ 1) Occam's Razor.  2) Looting.  -tom
        \_ Didn't someone post this yesterday?  In any case, note that the
           pictures and captions are from 2 different sources.  There's no
           cigar until you have *one* source calling the white act "finding"
           and the same black act "looting".  Ah yes, refer from below to
           http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/44689 .
           \_ Following up to myself, even within one agency, there are
              different photographers and different people writing captions
              to pictures.  So, without being able to track down to one
              caption writer and similar circumstances (impossible to know
              from just looking at a picture), it's hard to make any logical
              conclusion of racism.  I do wonder if this is the best time to
              throw up misleading racism canards though.
        \_ Ok, fine. So what do Asians, American Indians, and Mexicans do?
           You left us out. You're a fucking racist.            -Asian
           \_ wouldn't you smarties have left town before the hurricane
              struck?
              \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on
                 grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver
                 something for all that protection money.  Oh wait, sorry,
                 that was in LA.  -John
           \_ Asians ninja their shit ...
              \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on
                 grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver
                 something for all that protection money.  Oh wait, sorry,
                 that was in LA.  -John
2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39366 Activity:moderate
8/30    So martial law has been declared in parts of Louisiana.  What I want
        to know is where is the bitching, moaning and wringing of hands about
              \_ I don't see anything natural about it.  -John
        this?  You know, like the bitching about similar things in Iraq.
          -- ilyas
        \_ Yeah, because the situations are so similar.  -John
           \_ Oh, I think comparing Bush to a natural disaster is fair.
              \_ They're arguably both Acts of God. -geordan
              \_ I don't see anything natural about it.  -John
        \_ Ilyas, how about your bitching and moaning about being forced
           AT GUNPOINT to help bail out insurance companies, and other ways
           federal tax dollars are being used in Louisiana?  -meyers
           \_ Maybe because libertarians love welfare, as long as it's rich
              people or corporations who are getting the help.
              \_ so true
        \_ You want we should bomb parts of Louisiana? What can we do there
           that Katrina did not?
        \_ There has been plenty of rioting and looting in Berkeley over the
           years but only the Telegraph shop keepers and their insurance
           companies were upset about that.
        \_ There is no such thing as "martial law" in state law.
           http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46073
2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39371 Activity:nil
8/30    Photo from eye of Katrina:
        http://csua.org/u/d76 (en.wikipedia.org)
        \_ Wow!  What kind of airplane was it?
           \_ The caption says: "...as seen from a NOAA P-3 hurricane hunter
              aircraft."
              \_ Got it.  A 4-engine propeller plane.  Thanks.  I thought it
                 had to be some powerful jet figher to be able to safely fly
                 close to a hurricane.
                 \_ http://www.aoc.noaa.gov/aircraft_lockheed.htm
           \_ It has to be a slow plane in order to go with the hurricane.
              Something too fast would require a lot of turns.
2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39364 Activity:high
8/30    In A.D. 2005, hurricane was approaching.
        \_ And it created an unexpected hero, President George W. Bush.
           \_ Who golfed everyone right out of trouble.
           \_ Yeah, sure.  Whatever.
           \_ Don't you know that Katrina is a Rovian plot to divert
              the public's attention from the War and Cindy Shennan
              and BUSHCO's shenanagins?
        \_ In 2005 AD, the hurrcane triggered a global recession more
           severe than the hurricane itself.
2005/8/30-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39362 Activity:low
8/30    Am I the only one who finds comparisons of this hurricane to the
        Boxing Day tsunami as tacky and out of proportion? --expat alum
        \-  "I can only imagine," Gov. Haley Barbour said slowly,
            "that this is what Hiroshima looked like 60 years ago."
           \_ wow, now if they'd just try a holocaust simile we
              could have a truly tacky trinity.
        \_ A city of about 500K is underwater.  Sorry, I think you're an idiot.
        \_ A city of about 500K is underwater including many white people.
           Sorry, I think you're an idiot. -emarkp
           \_ Hundreds dead vs. hundreds of thousands dead.  Days of warning
              vs. minutes of warning (if at all).  Hmm ......
              vs. minutes of warning (if any).  Hmm ......
              \_ I'm sorry, I didn't know there was an accurate count of the
                 dead.  Did you know they're painting black marks on houses so
                 they can go back and collect the dead when cars can get
                 through?
                 \_ "Hundreds" is not an accurate count.
                    \- the biggest difference is whether yo live in a society
                       with a social safety net or not. the best comparison
                       is to various bay of bengal monsoons and the effect
                       on bangladesh. the hiroshima "comparison" is just dumb,
                       but it is pretty much "free" for pols to make comments
                       but it is pretty much "free" for people to make comments
                       like this [or for pat to make comments like he made
                       recently]. --somebody who has done a fair amount of
                                    travel in societies without soc safety nets
                       recently].
           \_ what the hell does "including white people" mean??  I slightly
              modify my orignal impression, as the news here in S.E. Asia
              was talking about 70 dead when the tsunami simile appeared. But
              I still wonder about comparing it to an event that killed at
              least half a million people w/ an hour's warning. -op
                    \_ I enjoy spending time with white people.
                       Do you have a problm with that? Are you white? -emarkp
                       \_ I have a problem w/ people assigning more value
                          to lives wrapped in one skin color or flag, yes.
                          And yes I am a white American.
              \_ Yeah, but WHITE PEOPLE died in New Orleans. Even worse,
                 conservative white people. Oh the humanity!
              \_ Where did you get the 500k number?
                 \_ I mispoke and should have said "up to" half a million.
                    Those were the trends being reported here in SEA when
                    people seemed to stop counting.  Indonesia alone lost
                    whole towns and cities and cannot count accurately
                    but was being estimated at a quarter million as I recall.
2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39356 Activity:kinda low 52%like:39448
8/30    Police join in looting Wal-Mart in New Orleans
        http://csua.org/u/d73
        \_ That's nice you get to sit and get fat hacking away
           at your "job" so you can criticize someone who would
           take a bullet for your fat-ass.
           \_ Mmm.. kneejerk.  do you like police corruption?  granted, this
           \_ Mmm.. kneejerk.  do you like corrupt police?  granted, this
              is not the same as swiping drugs/money from evidence lockup,
              but still.. Or have we all been trolled?
           \- Where is a photojournalist/sobody with a cell phone camera
              when you need one:
                   Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six
                   feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched
                   atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.
           \_ You don't know much about New Orleans' cops.
        \_ "At least one officer tried futilely to control a looter through
           shame. 'When they say take what you need, that doesnt mean an
           f-ing' TV'"
        \_ I thought this kind of things only happens in a third world country.
           \_ What do you think New Orleans is right now?
        \_ Black people loot, white people borrow:
           http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/44689
           \_ "It fell off a truck"
           \_ And Asians... ?
2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:39338 Activity:nil
8/29    Whistleblower on Halliburton no-bid $7 billion contract demoted
        http://csua.org/u/d6t (LA Times)
2005/8/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39308 Activity:moderate
8/27    Told you the Bushi'ites were going to turn violent:
        "In one heated moment, members of the pro-Bush crowd turned on
        what they mistakenly thought were a group of anti-war protesters,
        cursing them, threatening them and tearing down their signs.
        A police officer rushed the group to safety."
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050827/pl_nm/iraq_usa_protest_bush_dc
        They see their dreams of world hegemony crumbling before their
        eyes, so they are taking out their frustration on the nearest
        available target, right now Cindy Sheehan.
        \_ So what became of the reports of people attacking wounded vets
           at the vet hospital?  Did the anti-Bush attackers see their
           dreams of world hegemony crumbling before their eyes, so they
           took out their frustrations on the nearest available target,
           right now some wounded vets just back from Iraq?
           \_ URL? If true, this is disgustig.
              \_ I assume the OP was referring to the Code Pink protest
           \_ URL? If true, this is disgusting.
              \_ I assume the pp was referring to the Code Pink protest
                 outside Walter Reed.
                 http://atlanta.craigslist.org/pol/93345236.html
                 (CNSNews.com is down, but this seems to be a faithful quote.)
                 http://csua.org/u/d6f (CNSNews)
                 \_ If this is the case, pp is nicely twisting "protesting at
                    army hospital" to "attacking wounded vets".  Nonetheless
                    it's a pretty inappropriate place for a protest.  -John
            \_ When have the "anti-Bush attackers" ever dreamed of global
               hegemony. Your message is muddied a bit by your pointless troll.
               \_ Uhm, hello?  Marxism?  Read a book some time.
               \_ A hell of a lot of very financially conservative people think
                  Bush is a mistake in every conceivable way.  Anti-Bush ==
                  Marxism is about as stupid as you can get.
                  \- without defending marxism as a accurate description of
                     how national/global economies work, it is a fairly
                     interesting theory ... you learn something about what
                     it means to come up with a theory in the social sciences
                     and stucturally it has a lot in common with ideas that
                     in terms of substance it is totally unrealted to, if not
                     antithetical [for example what is the relationship of
                     natialism to other forces, be the class-consciousness, or
                     "globalism"/bond market etc]. see e.g. response to
                     T FRIEDMAN by JOHN GRAY. --psb
                     \_ Thanks for the tip -- John Gray's article is quite
                        good. -- Tom "Metropolitan" Townsend
                                 \- you may wish to read the article on
                                    Whit Stillman's "world view" reference in:
                    http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/BLOG/MetropolitanJudgment.txt
                  \_ STW for Code Pink.  Context.  Thank you.
                     \_ From a Code Pink website:
                        "CODEPINK is a women initiated grassroots peace and
                        social justice movement that seeks positive social
                        change through proactive, creative protest and
                        non-violent direct action."  Sounds like Evil Monolithic
                        Communism to me.  "positive social change" is probably
                        a code word for teaming up with the UN to take your
                        guns away and seep your precious bodily fluids.
                        \_ And this doesn't scream "MARXIST!" to you?  Okey
                           dokey!  Good job at reading between the lines.  If
                           Halliburton's website described the company as being
                           an environmentally friendly, peace loving, do-no-
                           evil place, you'd believe that too, huh?
                   \_ IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS! -GWB
2005/8/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39291 Activity:low
8/26    Nice, John Bolton is already making a huge impact!
        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_08_21.php#006347
        \_ I'd just as easily believe Bolton were doing it with complete
           support from the Administration.
          \_ Uh.. duh.  Bolton is Bush's guy, though, not the State
             Department's.  By all indications, State had been trying
             to get the guy out of there.  He fucks up everything he
             touches.  I think that's why Bush likes him.  How else is
             he gonna get his war with Iran?
             \_ hey, isn't he supposed to be Condi's guy more than Dubya's?
                wasn't condi throwing all this support in for Bolton?
                \_ Not particularly.  She basically said "Don't worry,
                   We'll babysit him if you confirm him"
                   \_ "John Bolton is eminently qualified for this job. And I'm
                      the one who talked to the president about having John do
                      this." -Sec State Rice, May 11 2005
                      \_ You didn't follow the confirmation process too closely,
                         huh?
                         \_ I probably followed it more closely than you:
                            In addition to saying they would keep him on a
                            leash, Rice also made that rather clear, emphatic
                            statement.
                            \_ Because Rice is a good trooper.  The odor
                               of embarrassment about the guy is palpable.
                               \_ Let's put it this way:  Between Cheney,
                                  Rummy, and Rice (let's exclude Rove),
                                  Rummy, and Rice (let's exclude Rove, please),
                                  who do you think Dubya trusted most when it
                                  came to checking himself before deciding to
                                  invade Iraq?
                                  came to deciding to invade Iraq?
                                  \_ Apples to oranges.  This quote from Rice
                                     is for the unwashed masses (ie Congress).
                                     Also, when has ever been apparent that
                                     Bush checks himself?
                                     \_ It's the first thing many people think
                                        of (along the lines of:  Rice is loyal
                                        not dumb), and it's definitely
                                        plausible, but so is my theory (true,
                                        Rice is loyal, but she's more the
                                        "dumb smart" person that Dubya trusts).
                                        Rice is loyal, but she's also the
                                        "smart" person that Dubya trusts).
                                        Same goes with checking himself.
                                        heh.
             \_ He fucks everything up he touches? Is he Bush's clone?
             \_ we don't have the troops for Iran.
                we are nothing but a limp penis right now, and Bush knows it.
                \- what is stephen krasner's role in this?
2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39285 Activity:kinda low
8/25    "Iraq on brink of meltdown"
        http://csua.org/u/d5q (UK Telegraph)
        "The Bush administration finally did something right in brokering
        this constitution"
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/25/opinion/25brooks.html
        \_ The intellectual dishonesty of Brooks continues.  Why should the
           Sunnis accept most or all of Iraq's oil revenue being taken from
           them?
           \_ they are not.  They are being alienated from oil resources, so
              they can be crushed in civil war later...  Their only ally
              is Saudi Arabia... provided that Saudi Arabia has the extra
              bandwidth to supply arms and money for Sunni's cause :p
        \_ I really think this "constitution" thing is all for American
           domestic politics than for Iraq.  There is hardly any sense of
           rule of law there.  Having constitution which no one going to
           follow is kind of pointless.
           \- what do you propose? we're not talking about just deciding
              whether there will be jury trials or not. but you have to
              define the basic existence of the organs of government.
              britain may famously have an unwritten constitition but
              the do have written laws governing elections to parliament
              and such. striving for something as detailed as the failed
              eu constitition is obviously absurd, but you do need something
              like article i/ii/iii.
              \_ i think i am trying to say that don't put much hopes up.
                sure, constitution is nice, but there are no concept of
                things like seperation of power, independent judicial branch,
                etc.  it is a classic example of what we are throwing
                what worked for us at someone and naively think it will work
                for them.
                \- i think it is well understood(*) that order is a prereq
                   for law, that law does not mechanistically follow from
                   order, or even order + a constitution. the constitution
                   is supposed to help get from "mere" order [under saddam
                   there was order, just not justice, law equity or any
                   values procedural or substantive] to the rule of law.
                   (*) = excepting anarchist or libertarian fruitcakes.
                         bring it on, fruitcakes. --psb
                   \_ You know Partha, your rants about libertarians are even
                      less amusing than usual given that you don't even seem
                      to understand the crucial distinction between libertarians
                      and anarchists.  What you just said is comparable to
                      \_ That anarchists listen to better music?
                      me saying 'it is well understood(*) that property rights
                      form a basis for a civilized society.
                      (*) = excepting communist and liberal fruitcakes.
                            bring it on, fruitcakes.' -- ilyas
                            \- 1. i understand libertarian != anarchists.
                                  i didnt write "libertarian/anaarchists".
                               2. i agree communists dont appreciate the
                                  importance of private property. i dont
                                  like "liberals" means much there. a lot of
                                  the liberal hedonists in a place like SF
                                  are very keen on private property.
                               3. my dispute with you would be over the word
                                  "basis". i am merely asserting the empirical
                                  theory [as opposed to a value claim] that
                                  order/law preceeds property, i.e. is "more
                                  foundational".
                               4. i agree libertaians and anarchsts view of the
                                  situation is different. just addressing
                                  libertarians ... or even Friedmanite "flat
                                  worlders" ... this is an example of modeling
                                  too much behavior with narrow microecon
                                  type thinking. --psb
2005/8/25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39260 Activity:very high
8/24    Which president owns the biggest ranch? Is it Bush? Or Washington
        with his plantations? How about biggest mansions?
        \- i'd have thought LBJ.
        \_ wealthy rich Republican presidents from Virginia have the biggest
           ranches and mansions
           \_ I wonder what you would have said if the ketchup gigolo had won.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Rich Republicans have ranches; rich Democrats have compounds.
              \_ Same ho, new lo!!!
        \_ Bush's "ranch" isn't a "ranch" at all.  A "ranch" would imply that
           cattle are being raised.  However, "sprawling mansion" makes him
           sound less like a "regular guy," so "ranch" it is.
           \_ Is it really a sprawling masnion? URL of pictures?
              \_ Aparrently not.  Or at least, I see no evidence of sprawling:
                 http://csua.org/u/d5g
                 \_ cease all fact bringing! ack!
                 \_ Don't look where the Google map marker is, look at the
                    estate at the end of the road, with the private tree-lined
                    drive, 3 buildings, lake view, and main house which is
                    about twice as large as the one by the map marker.  While
                    it doesn't look palatial from the sattelite, it *does* look
                    like a mansion.
2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39250 Activity:low
8/24    Bush approval rating at 36%. Schweet.
        http://americanresearchgroup.com/economy
        \_ what does it matter?  he is free to fuck up the world
        until the next guy gets elected.
        \_ Stop it! You're making Mr. Justin Black angry! Don't you realize
           how expensive psychiatric therapy is? You guys are cruel.
        \_ link:csua.org/u/d50 (graph with many polls)
           You can compare the AmResGp data with other data.  The recent
           Harris data point backs it up a little bit.
        \_ why does this matter?  Its not like we can chose to not reelect him.
           \_ It shows that, for whatever reason, the American people are
              finally rejecting the Project for a New American Century,
              which gives hope for the future.  -tom
              \_ No, actually, all it shows is that Bush is not popular right
                 now.  The rest is all in your head. -- ilyas
                 \_ His war is also not popular.
                        \_ But at least he's not letting gays get married!
                           \_ Priorities, man, priorities.
2005/8/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39230 Activity:nil
8/23    Bush talking to veterans: "We owe them something. We will finish the
        task that they gave their lives for..." Finishing the task? Look out
        North Korea and Vietnam!  We'll get it right this time!
        http://csua.org/u/d4l
        \_ Time to invade Vietnam and finish the task we started there
           40 years ago!
        \_ Veteran with his Bullshit Protector on
           http://csua.org/u/d4o
2005/8/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39201 Activity:nil
8/20    "Qualls gained attention last week when he went to Sheehan's camp,
        which has hundreds of crosses as a tribute to troops killed, and
        removed one bearing his son's name. But he said protesters keep
        replacing it; he has yanked two more crosses, saying the protesters'
        views are disrespectful to soldiers."
        http://csua.org/u/d3l
2005/8/16-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39140 Activity:nil
8/16    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050816/ts_nm/bush_protester_dc
        Take that, you godless liberals!
        \_ "we respect the troops, so we're gonna break your symbols of
           respect for the troops..."
        \_ One of the neighbors shot at her, too. How long till she becomes
           a martyr for her cause?
           \_ The guy fired a shot in the air.  Even in this age of grade
              inflation and relaxed standards, you still have to die to
              become a martyr.
              \_ I give her a week before one of the deranged Freepers
                 blows her brains out.
                 \- Would you like to make a bet? --psb
                    \_ No need. The neighbors are petitioning to ban
                       protesters. This really IS Bush Country.
                       \_ A neighbor (a relative of the guy who fired the shot)
                          has offered them space on his land to stay.
                       \- i am sort of suprised ROVECO hasnt found some
                          iraqi mom whose son  was shredded or boiled by
                          S HUSSEIN to "spontaneously" reply saying
                          something like "your son didnt die in vain, pls
                          dont abandon us now. we love bush." --psb
                          \_ Mom and Son probably got crushed to death
                             together, you know the more the merrier
                             principle of torture and despotism.
2005/8/16-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39138 Activity:nil
8/16    Funny.  Sheehan didn't have a problem taking a picture with Bush last
        year: http://www.csua.org/u/d1z
        \_ You're not very bright, are you?
        \_ Yeah, being in shock at the loss of your son is hilarious.
           \_ Funny as in odd, not as in hilarious you fucktard.
              \_ Someone's sarcasm detector is on the fritz.
        \_ wow, she is obviously a hypocrite!
           \_ No, just a nut.
              \_ Hi jblack!
              \_ It is not Sheehan that is the crazy one here:
              \_ Perhaps it is not Sheehan that is the crazy one here:
                 http://csua.org/u/d2b (Yahoo News)
                 \_ Interesting article. You know, during the last days of
                    Germany, Hitler tried to moved troops that no longer
                    existed and talked about a final pushback that would
                    make his dream come true.
                 http://csua.org/u/d2c (Capitol Hill Blue)
                 \_ Heh.  Damn Nazis. -- ilyas
2005/8/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39116 Activity:low
8/14    Wait a minute.  LBJ's approval rating in March 1968: 41 percent.
        Public's approval of LBJ's handling of Vietnam War at that time:
        32 percent.  Bush's approval rating now: 42 percent.  Public's
        approval of Bush's handling of Iraq: 34 percent.  These ratings
        are nearly identical, yet LBJ was forced to resign and Bush is still
        treated as Mr. Popular?  I just don't get it.
        \_ Bush may well have as many people hating him as LBJ but I've never
           met anyone who really loved or trusted LBJ, whereas the pro-bush
           camp has blind, drooling adoration of their leader.  As far as I
           can tell, bush-haters and bush-lovers are balanced, while LBJ lacked
           the balance.  He was simply hated or tolerated.
           \_ The alternative to Bush is less appealing to many.
        \_ iirc, LBJ didn't resign, he chose not to run for a 2d term b/c
           he was afraid he wouldn't get re-elected. (His "1st" term was
           really JFK's 2d term).
        \_ LBJ did not resign. Your history is lacking. Your bias
           obvious.
           \_ You are correct: LBJ did not resign; he declined to run for
              re-election. LBJ did this because he had a shred of decency.
              W wouldn't decline to run for re-election (if he could run for
              re-election in '08, which we know he cannot) because he has
              no honor or decency. -!op
        \_ Heh, consider Chirac's approval rating.  I think the most popular
           rulers these days are Putin and Chavez. -- ilyas
        \_ Why are you so obsessed with polls?  About once a week for the last
           2 months, you've posted something like this.  Polls don't matter.
           They don't even matter during an election season.  They sure don't
           matter to a second term President.  You're aware he can't run
           again, right?  He hasn't exactly gone out of his way to win over
           the American people to any of his policies.  He's not big on PR,
           bright lights, cameras, and microphones.  Whatever else happens,
           he won't be remembered as The Great Communicator.
2005/8/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39111 Activity:nil
8/13    Bush is planning another war. Better get ready for the
        draft, students. No way is this going to happen with
        an all volunteer military:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050813/ts_nm/iran_bush_dc
        \_ Same thing Dubya said six months ago.
        \_ And this is new how?  Maybe you should take a closer look at
           what Iran says internally, that's far more interesting.
        \_ Using force does not mean a full-scale invasion. We could just bomb
           their alleged WMD facilities and ballistic missiles.
        \_ Giving it a second thought, I think this is just a scare tactic.
           Any military confrontation with Iran will likely cause the southern
           Iraq where the majority of Iraq's population lives to descend into
           chaos. Al-Sistrani, Al-Sadr and his boys, and the rest of Iraqi Shia
           population are keeping quiet only because they're being brought to
           power with the support of our guns, and not because they enjoy
           seeing the hordes of armed infidels roaming aroud the holiest shia
           cities.
           \_ I honestly do not think so. Bush is not in the habit of making
              threats that he does not intend to back up with action.
        \_ Super War Preview: http://www.exile.ru/2005-January-27/war_nerd.html
2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39101 Activity:nil
8/11    Surprisingly good Rolling Stone article about a month in the life of
        the current Congress, and how it really works these days:
        http://csua.org/u/d0q (rollingstone.com)
        The section on China, Westinghouse, and the Ex-Im Bank is particularly
        fascinating and infuriating.
2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39100 Activity:low
8/11    Dubya:  "I sympathize with Mrs. Sheehan ... She feels strongly about
        her position. She has every right in the world to say what she
        believes. This is America. She has a right to her position. And I've
        thought long and hard about her position. I've heard her position from
        others, which is, 'Get out of Iraq now.'"
        Mrs. Sheehan:  "All we're asking is that he sacrifice an hour out of
        his five-week vacation to talk to us, before the next mother loses her
        son in Iraq."
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/11/bush.ap/index.html
        Strawman = Mrs. Sheehan wants Dubya to pull out troops now.
        I love politics!
        \_ Sheehan already talked with Bush.  Why do you care what she says?
           \_ As facts change, opinions change.
              \_ Typical flipfliping homosexual fraceophile democrat.
              \_ Typical flipfloping homosexual franceophile democrat.
              \_ Typical flipfliping homosexual franceophile democrat.
                                                \_ Francophile
                                                   \_ wrong. its franceophile.
                                                      link:csua.org/u/d0t
                                                      \_ Bzzzt!:
                                                      http://tinyurl.com/8zsp3
                                                      http://tinyurl.com/bt9zf
                                                      http://tinyurl.com/7twjr
                                                      http://tinyurl.com/9mbbt
                                                      link:tinyurl.com/dbkas
                                                      \_ What is your point?
                                                         \_ I bet BUD DAY
                                                            wouldn't have to
                                                            ask!
                                                            \_ mice was eaten
                                                               by a troll.
                                                               \_ Er?  -mice
                                                               \_ Can't I be
                                                                  eaten by a
                                                                  grue?  That
                                                                  sounds much
                                                                  more fitting.
                                                                          -mice
                 Eternal values never change!
              Like, there were WMDs!  We can win!  Good, let's get Saddam.
              There were no WMDs!  Um, can we win?  Get Dubya to level with us.
        \_ Was her son a volunteer soldier? Reservist? National Guard?
           \_ Volunteer marine.  Had reenlisted.
              \_ Um, wow, no.  He was Army.
              \_ So what's she complaining about? He wanted to be there.
2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39097 Activity:nil
8/11    More on (moron?) the Freedom Walk
        http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/4944.html
        \_ I'm surprised no one has commented on this.  Is everyone
           on the same page of disgusted?
           \_ No.  Given the general tenor of US politics over the last few
              years, my threshhold for "digusted" has gone stratospheric. -John
2005/8/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39081 Activity:kinda low
8/10    Pentagon to organize huge march and Clint Black concert to celebrate
        9/11.  What the fuck?
        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/335938p-286948c.html
        \_ I admit that this is odd, but calling it a celebration is
           completely disingenuous.
           \_ Can I have Clint Black sing at my funeral?  I'm goin'
              for _somber_.
              fer _somber_.
           \_ Okay, I should have put "celebration" in scare quotes.  I'm
              sure that's not their intention, but it sure smells like it.
              Hence my "what the fuck."  --op
              \_ It's definitely weird, but I guess the Pentagon has some
                 sort of "right" because it was after all attacked on 9/11
                 with some 300-400 odd people dying (counting the ones on the
                 plane). Personally I find the concert in somewhat bad taste,
                 as I think a moment of silence or a reading of the names of
                 the dead is much more appropriate.
                 \_ It is called "waving the bloody shirt" and is an old
                    tried and true propaganda technique.
        \_ http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/08/is-he-fucking-kidding.html
2005/8/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39080 Activity:moderate
8/10    Stories from a wounded Army soldier
        http://csua.org/u/czk (Wash Post)
        http://freerepublic.com comments on the end of the story
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1460559/posts
        \_ Freepers' version of respect for veterans "Wonder if this moron is
           gay..sounds like what a queer would do."  Why do freepers hate
           America?
           \_ "There is only room for one party in America and you liberals
               better get used to it."
               \_ So, is that an actual quote, or are you just making them
                  up again?
                  \_ http://csua.com/?entry=38572
                     \_ Oh, you're quoting liberal pretending to be a
                        conservative.  That's so much better.
                        \_ Says you.  That post was in earnest.
                           \_ Oh, come ON.
                              \_ Do you have evidence of who posted it?
                                 Anyway, I could find you similar quotes
                                 on any given conservative comment board
                                 in two minutes.
                                 \_ I don't require evidence of who posted
                                    a troll to know it's a troll.
                                    Especially one that blatant.  I don't
                                    Especially one that blantant.  I don't
                                    doubt that you could find something
                                    similar on freerepublic or something.
                                    I can find plenty of wacky left-wing
                                    I can find pleanty of wacky left-wing
                                    quotes on left-leaning boards too.
                                    Anyway, please find one, at least then
                                    you'd be using a real quote from a
                                    real wing-nut, and not just someone
                                    pretending to be a wing-nut.
                                    \_ I am pretty sure it was jblack. He
                                       posted a bunch of similar stuff that
                                       day, then deleted anyone who disagreed
                                       with him, then posted that. But it is
                                       the motd, so there is no proof.
                                       \_ Well, yeah.  In this case, I
                                          don't think it was jblack.
                                          However, I can't say with
                                          complete confidence that jblack
                                          wouldn't post something like
                                          that.
        \_ This is egregious even for FR standards--the comments make me sick.
           I wonder how many of the posters there are/were in the army.  -John
2005/8/8-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39051 Activity:nil
8/8     Rumsfeld: "I'm increasing troop levels before I decrease them."
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050808/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_us_military
        \_ He didn't say that, although that's what's happening.
        \_ He didn't say that, although that's definitely the official plan.
           Increase will occur for the elections.
           Decrease will occur after, depending on conditions on the ground.
2005/8/5-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39023 Activity:kinda low
8/5     Liberals: It's over.  We lost.  For real.  We're fucked.
        http://newsforreal.blogspot.com/2005/08/august-1-2005.html
        \_ He's got a few fallacies, but I think he's more or less
           correct.  The Democratic party has spent the last 5 years, at
           least, yelling about issues that no longer apply,  and
           re-hashing old battles that are long over.  I would love to see
           the Dems come out of the 60's.  It is, if nothing else, surreal
           to see the Republicans fighting for equality and the Dems
           squabbaling about diction.  Please Dems, wake up to the 21st
           century, we need another party.
           On the other hand, here's a suprisingly lucid piece from
           Feinstein:
           http://csua.org/u/cya
           \_ Yes, and I'd like to add that Bay Area is totally utterly
              out of touch with the rest of the conservative America.
              \_ The Bay Area is out of touch with liberal America, too,
                 in many ways. Limousine liberals, mostly.
                 \_ You don't know what liberal means, dim.
                    \_ I'm the pp and I'm not dim. I'm using scp to
                       thwart the stupid John Ashcroft script.
                    \_ How would you know? I cite this as another example
                       of being out of touch with reality.
                 \_ I love driving my limo through the Fastrak lane. - danh
                    http://csua.org/u/cyc
        \_ If the Republicans are letting corporations get away with
           evil things, how come we're seeing a bunch of CEOs and
           managers go to jail?
           \_ Because, first, there is no agreement on what evil corporate
              behavior is, and, second, a whole lot of things that are
              considered as evil corporate behavior by some are not punishable
              by law. Those who go to jail obviously were caught breaking
              the law.
        \_ What's sad is people taking someone so logically weak seriously.
        \_ Republican majorities in all three branches of government have
           definite effects.  It also has the effect of:  Knowing who to
           blame when the shit hits the fan.
           The shit is hitting the fan, if you haven't noticed.
        \_ Don't be so pessimistic. There are issues where GWB's administration
           flatly failed (E.g. Social Security Privatization and judicial and
           UN ambassador nomination fiascos). Public discontent is also
           building up in a number of other areas (Iraq, the Plume affair, etc)
2005/8/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39011 Activity:nil
8/4     Americans DO love America!
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050805/od_nm/usa_immigration_dc
2005/8/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39009 Activity:high
8/4     http://tinyurl.com/dfgca
        What's wrong with this picture? Did you yahoo and/or AP start
        photoshopping their photographs?
        \_ Nothing's wrong.  It's a really bright flash on a sunny day.
        \_ What's wrong?  No seat belts.
        \_ What's wrong?  No seatbelts.
2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39001 Activity:nil
8/4     Bush describes Iraqi resistance as "dark, dim and backwards":
        http://csua.org/u/cx8
        \_ Erm, this says he was talking about Zawahri..  Conflating him
           with "Iraqi resistance" would be... unsupported.
2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38997 Activity:nil
8/4     Novak takes off mike, walks off set after being taunted by Carville
        about having to look tough for the right-wingers when Novak is being
        gracious to Carville
        Download video here:
        http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/08/04.html#a4309
        \_ Ooh, big bad mean jim carville... Come on.. Have you ever watched
           them on shows together before?  Novak needs a nap (in some nice
           orange pyjamas)
        \_ I think Carville is the closest I've seen a person to Gollum ever.
           \_ I actually think Condi is closer
              \_ Nah, the bald head and the voice clinch it.
                 \_ Nah, I think her buck teeth, the big forehead with the
                    weird wrinkles, the wild look in her eyes, and her
                    following the master around do it
                    http://csua.org/u/cxe (Condi, first thing on Yahoo! photos)
                    link:csua.org/u/cxf (Gollum)
                    \- Condie Rice is Angry!
                       http://www.condiriceisangry.com
        \_ CNN Suspends Novak After He Walks Off Set - Yahoo! News:
           http://csua.org/u/cxh
2005/8/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38974 Activity:nil 80%like:38971
8/3     Roberts will go after Griswold vs. Connecticut:
        http://csua.org/u/cwr (Washington Post)
        \_ What about Griswold vs. Wally World?
2005/8/3 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38971 Activity:nil 80%like:38974
8/3     Roberts will go after Griswold vs. Connecticut:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201913_pf.html
2005/8/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38957 Activity:kinda low
8/2     http://www.fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com
        Interesting read. -- ilyas
        \_ Oh no! An ultra conservative writer got killed. BOO HOO!
           \_ Yeah, the life of anyone who disagrees with your political
              philosophy has no value.  Good way to win friends and
              influence people.
              \_ "There is only room for one party in this country"
                 \_ How can you equate gloating over someone's death with a
                    random trollish political statement?  Nevermind....
                 \_ Wow, talk about delusions of grandeur.  Do you always put
                    quote marks around your comments?
                    \_ He is quoting one of the motd Conservatives. Or perhaps
                       a troll posing as a motd Conservative. Sometimes it
                       is hard to tell the difference.
                       http://csua.org/u/cwn
                        \_ Ah, hiding behind http://csua.org. Are you ashamed
                           of the real URL?
                           \_ Wow, you're dumb.  Or maybe just deeply paranoid?
                           \_ No, the full URL was too long to put on one
                              line in the motd. Did you even look at it?
        \_ Uh, ignore the liberal drones above.  That wasn't the point of that
           url at all. -- ilyas
           \_ Don't you even asscociate some of the above with the Liberal
              Team - we don't want 'em.  -Liberal Team Management
2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38960 Activity:nil
8/2     Ok, all you Bush-haters, in case you haven't seen this clip:
        http://www.toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/138/index.php
2005/8/2-4 [Science/Biology, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38949 Activity:high
8/2     Bush comes out in support of teaching "intelligent design":
        http://csua.org/u/cwg (yahoo! news)
        \_ "People might cite George Bush as proof that you can be
           totally impervious to the effects of Harvard and Yale
           education."
           \_ It's those damned C students!
        \_ 55% of Americans (including 47% of Kerry voters) believe "God
           created humans in present form".  27% believe "humans evolved, God
           guided the process".  A mere 13% believe "humans evolved, God did
           not guide process".  About 2/3 of Americans want creationism taught
           along with evolution.  "Intelligent design" is solidly in the
           mainstream of American thought.
           \_ It's safe to say that Bay Area is the opposite of mainstream.
              I'm not sure if this is anything to be proud of anymore.
              \_ We shouldn't be proud of teaching our students um, science in
                 science classes?
           \_ 95% of Americans don't know what "Intelligent Design" means.
           \_ Yes, I lent her my assault rifle?  Sorry, did I miss something?
           \_ Creationism IS taught alongside evolution, just not in the same
              school.
              \_ The ironic part is that most Protestant denominations,
                 the Catholic Church, and a fair chunk of Judaism have
                 accepted evolution as part of God's plan.
                 \_ What's amusing is that, when I was at a fairly religious
                    (protestant) jr. high school, the biology teacher, who was
                    an extremely religious man, made it clear that he felt it
                    was his duty that we were taught evolution even if he
                    himself believed otherwise (he never ever said this in the
                    context of a class, and even outside of class only when we
                    pressed him on the matter.)  We had to take religion
                    classes, but even then they made very sure to only present
                    creationism and its ilk as "something some people believe
                    in".  -John
                 \_ Wouldn't that make it "Intelligent Design"?
                    \_ No.  Intelligent Design is a creationist critique of
                       evolutionary theory.  It has nothing to do with
                       science, and everything to do with Biblical literalism.
                       \_ Huh, well, stick me in with the other 95% of
                          Americans I guess.  According to Wikipedia, I
                          was thinking of Theistic evolution.
                       \_ Um, ID is formulated as a scientific hypothesis, from
                          what I understand of it.  There was a long ass motd
                          what I understand of it.  There was a long motd
                          discussion about it a while ago, complete with tom
                          making an ass of himself and everything. -- ilyas
2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38943 Activity:nil
8/2     You gotta love the more...direct qualities of international news
        outlets.  For instance, Hong Kong's Standard on Bolton nomination:
        http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Focus/GH03Dh02.html
2005/8/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38918 Activity:low
8/2     "When the left attacks kids, you know it's in bad shape."
        http://tinyurl.com/9ldmy
        \_ A Fox News link!  Thank you sir, may I have another?
        \_ Here's the editorial that the above link is criticizing.
           http://csua.org/u/cvx (Washington Post)
           The FOX link is pretty dumb, but I have to admit, this
           editorial is pretty stupid too, and deserves criticism.
           \_ Do you know what makes an editorial, an editorial?
              \_ Stupidity and pettiness?
                 \_ Wrong and wrong.
           \_ The Wash Post editoritial is moronic.  Would they have been happy
              if the girl was dressed up as a little hooker and the
              boy as a gangsta?  Could we please concentrate on the abuses
              of power going on the administration and not the dress code
              of family members of nominees?
              \_ You people have no sense of humour.
        \_ At least they didn't call anyone The White House dog, like
           Limbaugh did back when Chelsea was in her awkward phase.
           Limbaugh did back when Chelsea was in her dog phase.
2005/8/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38916 Activity:nil
8/1     People keep talking about "BushCo" but is he actually a CFO
        or chairman of something? I'm not talking about Cheney/Halliburton
        but Bush/Some-other-real-company. ok thx.
        \_ Motd will not do your homework for you. But here's a hint.
           google for "ceo president"
           \_ Nope, no evidence of him running a Halliburton-like company,
              nothing of the scale or the threat. I only find info that
              he was a failing CEO at insignificant companies. No connection
              to Walmart or huge threatening corporations. This BushCo
              phrase is catchy but false. It should be updated on factcheck.
              \_ You're an idiot.  Motd is disappointed, but not surprised.
                 You will be forgiven if you can show you were in Jr. High
                 in 2000.
2005/8/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38902 Activity:kinda low
7/31    Btw, how are those charges against Rove coming along? I haven't been
        following the news lately.
        \_ Everything is speculation at this point, with no big revelations
           after the story about the Air Force One memo and so forth.  Either
           Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury are much better at controlling leaks
           than Kenneth Starr was, or there isn't much going on.
           \_ Reporters covering it say the former.
        \_ Bush bashers are failing. Democrats are fucked and Republicans
           are winning: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/bushbashingfizzles
           are winning: http://lin.kz/?vprls
           are winning: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/bushbashingfizzles
           \_ is US News a conservative news source?
           \_ Duhhh...
           \_ Strength through Purity! Purity through Faith!
              \_ Stupidity through Partisanship!
           \_ Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Partei!
           \_ Yeah, that 43% approval rating is just knockin' em dead!
              \_ Faith Based Politics. Actual results don't matter, just
                 faith in your leader.
        \_ Commodisation of news-- if Rove reports are not selling, move on.
           http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/fellows/papers02-03/shaw.pdf
           http://lin.kz/?i3myr
           http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/fellows/papers02-03/shaw.pdf
2005/7/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38886 Activity:high
7/29    To the Japanese imperialist/asian nationalist troll (I'm so proud that
        my troll farm finally has a little friend for chicom troll, I was
        getting worried):  They lost.  -John
        \_ yeah and you thick skinned white men still don't get why you're
           bombed and attacked and hated and jihad'ed and so on so forth.
           \_ Here, let me take a stab at this: US is (for the time being at
              least) the top dog in the geopolitical dog pile, and also
              supports Israel.  If you think it has anything to do with 'lack
              of sensitivity' then I have to wonder what deluded idyllic
              closet *you* came out of.  Grow up, son -- the world doesn't
              revolve around your hurt feelings.
           \_ Ah, ok, now we're getting somewhere, I wasn't sure what your
              point was, exactly.  So you are equating a racist, imperialistic
              regime's expansionist policies based on perceived American
              aggression with the justified indiscriminate violence perpetrated
              against civilians by a few ideologically exploited thugs who
              are just as wont to murder their own "people" and oppress
              infidels and women as a response to repeated supposed slights
              committed against a primitive, barbaric "culture" that has never
              undergone a renaissance, never ever consider a tiny measure of
              introspection about why it is economically and socially failing?
              You know, I'm the first to try and look for and analyze faults
              in my own society's internal and international workings-as I've
              stated before, maybe this makes me a bit naive.  You, on the
              other hand, are a cranky, ill-educated cretin.  Oh, and I'll make
              sure to inform Condi about the "white men" thing.  I'm sure it
              sounded good on a flyer on Sproul plaza.  -John
2005/7/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38884 Activity:kinda low 50%like:39576
7/29    CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll:
        Bush approval ratings hit lowest point of tenure
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-29-gallup-poll_x.htm
        \_ BUT THE GALLUP POLL IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
        \_ Although this is on http://usatoday.com, it's not anywhere on http://CNN.com yet
           ... I guess they'll post it Friday night / Saturday morning ...
           how lucky for Dubya!  (not that he's the type to watch the polls
           anyway -- God Bless!)
        \_ Oh wow, in the span of an hour, http://usatoday.com already moved the
           link from the front page and buried it.  Can you find the link?
           Did some political genius recognize the unfortunate timing of
           "The majority of Americans hate you" and "I'm going around
           the congressional body and appoint Bolton anyway"?
           \_ Erm, it's still on the front page, in the Washington/Politics
              section
              \_ heh, they've been moving it around
                 I just submitted the http://CNN.com link to http://drudgereport.com,
                 wonder how long that'll be
        \_ He's a lame duck President.  Why do you obsess over his poll
           numbers?  He obviously doesn't care or he'd be out in public
           every week stumping for his programs like it was a campaign.
           Find something interesting to obsess about.
2005/7/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38874 Activity:nil
7/28    Enter a creative headline for the following picture, I'll start.
        http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_374.html
        \_ Small brain, small TV
        \_ This happens when your entertainment budget goes to the war
        \_ It took him 2 minutes before he realized it's a microwave.
        \_ How do I make the remote put NASCAR back on?
2005/7/25-28 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38808 Activity:nil
7/25    Pollution fighting concrete, &c.
        http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,68282,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6
        \_ Trees have been doing the same thing for a long long time.
           \_ Yeah, but we seem to be chopping down a LOT of them in
              favor of concrete.
        \_ "Encouraged by such results, the European Union last year earmarked
            $2.27 billion for a project to develop "smart" construction
            materials that would break down nitrogen oxides and other toxic
            substances, such as benzene."
            You think the Bush admin. would ever do something like that? It's
            a great move for both economic, environmental, and public health
            reasons.  But there's no lobby that greases their palms, so it
            would never happen in the US.
            \_ We believe in this crazy thing called the 'free market'. If
               people want this and will pay for it then it will be done.

7/24
 34 threads,  780 lines, 157 replies,  22.9 lines/thread,   4.6 replies/thread
                              stddev:  28.0                 5.9
              \_ Free market doesn't work for things like basic
                 infrastructures. Take public transit for example. The
                 benefits are great, but the public needs to spend
                 billions of dollars and wait over 1-2 decades before
                 economic paybacks. In today's world, if you can't
                 make huge profits within 2-3 years, you're out. So what
                 happens when you privatize public transit? They look
                 for things that give you immediate paybacks, like
                 cutting back on the frequency of trains, automation,
                 etc. However, they are reluctant to expand more areas
                 because the investment is enormous, and there is
                 no immediate payback. Sure, free market makes everything
                 more efficient and more profitable, but what about the
                 original long term goals, which is infrastructure for
                 everyone to benefit from?
                 \_ Funny how people equate our car-based system with the
                    free market.  I sure didn't choose to have my tax dollars
                    used to either pay for excess roads and suburban sprawl
                    or to bail out shitty car companies again and again.
                    This car-centered nightmare we have turned our society into
                    has nothing to do with the free market.  It's socialism,
                    with the government doling out welfare to the auto
                    manufacturers and their minions.  A true free market
                    solution *or* a socialist solution for the general public
                    instead of for Detroit would be preferable to the current
                    idiocy.
                    \_ What exactly would a true free market or complete
                       socialist solution entail? Please elaborate.
                       \_ The true free market solution would involve privately
                          owned toll roads maintained with no help from the
                          government competing with privately owned rail lines
                          with no help or intereference from the government.
                          A socialist solution that benefits humans instead
                          of bloodsucking billionaires from detroit would
                          be based mostly on mass transit, with emphasis on
                          encouraging developement in a walking and biking
                          friendly way.  Both of these sound better than the
                          "we're all happy whores for detroit" system we
                          presently have.  I think that car culture is wrongly
                          associated with the free market as a red herring to
                          decieve people into supporting their automotive
                          masters.
                          \_ Free market works when there is a plethora of
                             sources to choose from. If apple is really
                             expensive, then people can always buy oranges.
                             In the case of infrastructures like eletric
                             power, EVERYONE needs electricity and there
                             isn't enough competition to lower the price.
                             Didn't you take basic econ or experienced the
                             power crisis a few years ago? Free market works
                             for some things and doesn't for others
                             \_ Did I say the free market solution is always
                                the right choice? No, I didn't.  My point
                                is not about free market vs. collective
                                sollutions, my point is about the evil of
                                car culture.  No matter what economic system
                                you have, it still sucks to get kicked in the
                                balls, and car culture is still stupid.
                             \_ I don't know why we're talking about
                                transportation and other infrastructure, but I
                                believe the free market  will provide better
                                building materials if people want them. Witness
                                what has happened with the supply/demand for
                                organic farming.
2005/7/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38780 Activity:nil
7/22    Did the "moderate" delete the main Plame thread again, or was it the
        guy who was yelling a lot?
        \_ Yelling guy is probably freaking out about this:
           http://csua.org/u/cti (nytimes.com)
           and probably this:
           http://csua.org/u/ctj (bloomberg.com)
           and most likely this:
           http://csua.org/u/ctk (bloomberg.com)
           But I'm sure more yelling will make him feel better.
           \_ I was yelling about people quoting secondary sources to prove
              their point.  The URL's above don't bother me in the slightest.
              -yelling guy
           http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aY51e404Lx_8&refer=us
              \_ Why did the post get deleted when three much better, more
                 relevant URLs were posted?
2005/7/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38776 Activity:nil
7/22    Profile of Victor Hanson, a popular conservitive essayist:
        http://www.hooverdigest.org/052/kay.html
        \_ "...Hanson doesn't play so well with others. At a recent meeting
           at Hoover, he strained to remain polite..." This sounds just
           like a Conservative Bush lover in my lab. He is somewhat shy,
           stubborn, and rude most of the time and doesn't get along with
           anyone else. Fucking Neocons.
2005/7/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38772 Activity:insanely high
7/22    Best 2 articles describing Plame Rove treason I've read so far, since
        it is a confusing story.  One political, one from inside ... One from
        a Democrat, one from a Republican.
        http://tinyurl.com/7qmra
        \_ This falls to pieces with: "Another false claim is that Valerie sent
           her husband on the mission to Niger."  No one is claiming that Plame
           sent him.  The claim is that she **RECOMMENDED** him.  The Senate
           Intelligence Committee has a memo in her handwriting proving this.
           And of course this: "The President has flip flopped and backed away
           from his promise to fire anyone at the White House implicated in a
           leak."  What a putz.
           \_   From above URL:
              "The Senate Intelligence Report is frequently cited by
              Republican partisans as 'proof' that Valerie sent her husband to
              Niger because she sent a memo describing her husband's
              qualifications to the Deputy Division Chief. Several news
              personalities, such as Chris Matthews and Bill O'Reilly continue
                                     \_ Neither of which are R's AFAIK (but I
                                        don't watch either of them).  Show me
                                        the quotes from R partisans.
                                        \_ To paraphrase someone else on the
                                           motd, you've provided a great
                                           demonstration of "being obtuse."
                                           \_ Nah, it's just hard to read
                                              something which sounds
                                              intelligent yet disputes a key
                                              point which you thought was
                                              100% true.
                                        \_ Read carefully, dude, it's ALL
                                           THERE:  The addendum in the Senate
                                           report was Republican, the
                                           spinmeisters (not necessarily
                                           Republican) quote the addendum.
                                           \_ I DON'T BELIEVE THIS.  Is that
                                              too hard to understand?  I think
                                              this guy is spinning, and I want
                                              to see what he claims to be
                                              quoting.  This whole issue has
                                              been more heat than light and
                                              everytime I get claims like this
                                              I ask for source documents.
                                              EVERY FUCKING TIME THE RESPONSE
                                              HAS BEEN SILENCE.  So if he can't
                                              back up his claim, or you can't,
                                              then SHUT THE FUCK UP.
                                              \_ Is "SHUT THE FUCK UP",
                                                 "EVERY FUCKING TIME", and
                                                 "I DON'T BELIEVE THIS"
                                                 supposed to be more light
                                                 than heat?
                                                 Besides, your post, "Neither
                                                 of which are R's AFAIK ...
                                                 Show me the quotes from R
                                                 partisans" was completely
                                                 answered by the the
                                                 "Read carefully, dude"
                                                 response.
                                                 Your emotional response seems
                                                 to be on another topic
                                                 entirely.
                                                 \_ Repeating what's in the
                                                    quote sure isn't.  If you
                                                    have a source, let us know.
                                              \_ All caps boy deleted my
                                                 question, but I'll ask him
                                                 again.  Do you think typing
                                                 in all caps helps your case?
                                                 \_ No, I didn't delete your
                                                    question.
              to repeat this nonsense as proof. What the Senate Intelligence
              Committee does not include in the report is the fact that
              Valerie's boss had asked her to write a memo outlining her
              husband's qualifications for the job. She did what any good
              employee does; she gave her boss what he asked for."
              \_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that confirms this.
                From danh's link:
              Seven months after the appointment of the special counsel, in
              July 2004, the Republican-dominated Senate Select Committee on
              Intelligence issued its report on flawed intelligence leading to
              the Iraq war. The blame for failure was squarely put on the CIA
              for "groupthink." (The Republicans quashed a promised second
              report on political pressure on the intelligence process.) The
              three-page addendum by the ranking Republicans followed the now
              well-worn attack lines: "The plan to send the former ambassador
              to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA
              employee." The CIA subsequently issued a statement, as reported
              by New York Newsday and CNN, that the Republican senators'
              conclusion about Plame's role was wholly inaccurate. But the
              Washington Post's Susan Schmidt reported only the Republican
              senators' version, writing that Wilson was "specifically
              recommended for the mission by his wife, a CIA employee,
              contrary to what he has said publicly," in a memo she wrote.
              Schmidt quoted a CIA official in the senators' account saying
              that Plame had "offered up" Wilson's name. Plame's memo, in
              fact, was written at the express directive of her superiors two
              days before Wilson was to come to Langley for his meeting to
              describe his qualifications in a standard protocol to receive
              "country clearance." Unfortunately, Schmidt's article did not
              reflect this understanding of routine CIA procedure. The CIA
              officer who wrote the memo that originally recommended Wilson
              for the mission--who was cited anonymously by the senators as
              the only source who said that Plame was responsible--was deeply
              upset at the twisting of his testimony, which was not public,
              and told Plame he had said no such thing. CIA spokesman Bill
              Harlow told Wilson that the Republican Senate staff never
              contacted him for the agency's information on the matter.
                Key words:
              (partisan) "addendum by the ranking Republicans",
              "CIA subsequently issued a statement ... Republican senators'
              conclusion about Plame's role was wholly inaccurate", "CIA
              officer ... that originally recommended Wilson for the mission
              ... was deeply upset at the twisting of his testimony ... told
              Plame he had said no such thing"
              \_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that confirms this.
                 \_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that disputes this.
                    \_ He makes the claim about Plame's boss.  Show me the
                       claim or SHUT THE FUCK UP.
                       \_ Why so angry?
                 \_ Unfortunately, her boss is probably covert as well.
                    How CONVENIIEENT ... I know ... but we do have:
                    http://csua.org/u/ctc (Newsday)
                    "A senior intelligence official ... said [Plame] did not
                    recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment."
                    LA Times (7/15/04, article archived):
                    "A senior intelligence official said the CIA supports
                    Wilson's version: 'Her bosses say she did not initiate the
                    idea of her husband going. They asked her if he'd be
                    willing to go, and she said yes,' the official said."
                    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30842-2003Dec25
                    "CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR
                    document [used to claim that Plame suggested Joe Wilson's
                    name], the official said, because the [CIA] agency officer
                    identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in
                    arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the
                    meeting."
           \_ And the White House has flip flopped on whether they would
              fire anyone who leaked Plame's name to a reporter. First they
              said they would, now Bush says only if they have broken
              the law.
              \_ fyi, an old friend of mine who's a loyal Republican voter
                 wrote in his blog that, after the flip-flop on Rove, he
                 has decided that his vote for Dubya in 2004 was a mistake.
           \_ The article falls apart? Try reading it again!
        http://tinyurl.com/dx3ok
        \_ I really like the first story, where the author also says that he
           voted for Dubya in 2000.
        \_ Countdown to someone mentioning Clinton in 5, 4, 3...
           \_ Author of first story also said he voted for Dubya because he
              understood what the meaning of "is" was
              \_ Obviously you've never served.
                 \_ Are you a troll? Do you have any understanding of the
                    effect of the methamphetamine trade on southern Michigan?
                 \_ obviously you think your trolls aren't that stupid
                    \_ I bet BUD DAY makes _excellent_ trolls.
                    \_ BUD DAY!
2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38742 Activity:nil
7/20    http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/20/bush.grenade/index.html
        Police officer killed during arrest of individual suspected of throwing
        live grenade at Dubya during his speech in the former Soviet republic
        of Georgia
        \_ Go Scotland Yard!
           \_ Did you mean to post in the London thread?
2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38740 Activity:low
7/20    Not that it wasn't obvious or anything, but Bush really was "wagging
        the court"
        http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=IJWRAX1A74E9
        (rich irony in that this article is based on anonymous sources)
        \_ Hate to channel freerepublic, but only Ed Rollins is quoted as
           a Republican, and he doesn't really say "Part of the reason Bush
           nominated fast was to distract from Rove", he just says,
           (paraphrasing) "Because of the nomination, attention will be
           distracted from Rove".  No further mention is made of "Republicans
           familiar with administration strategy".  This article is utter and
           complete crap currently. -moderate/liberal
           \_ "...said two administration officials, who spoke on the condition
              they not be named.  The officials said those plans changed
              because Rove has become a focus of Fitzgerald's interest and of
              news accounts about the matter."
              \_ Shit!  I blame the tiny type.  Or did they update the story
                 on me??  I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms.L
              \_ Does anyone see the irony of leaks coming out about scandal
                 involving leaks?
                 \_ Did anyone read the line in the OP about "rich irony?"
2005/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38739 Activity:nil
6/19    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1108389946956
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
        Supreme Court choice John C. Roberts Jr. reported by multiple sources
        is sharp, but will probably vote to overturn Roe v. Wade.
        I say there should be no filibuster attempt. -liberal/moderate
        \_ Roe v. Wade *should* be overturned.  And then (or even prior)
           congress should pass laws about privacy, etc.
           \_ If you're a strict constructionist, then you believe Roe v.
              Wade should be overturned.  On the other hand, if you're Sandra
              Day, you would uphold it.  Which is more valid?  You got me.
        \_ The magic number is 50. Assuming everything equal, he'll be around
           for the next 30-odd years.
           \_ When a Democrat is President, he or she can also nominate a
              sharp 50-year-old with little in judicial opinions written down
              but believed to be as liberal as you can get, but also one who
              has stated that they support being impartial over being
              predictable.
              \_ Only if someone on SCOTUS dies or retires during his
                 presidency. Cf. Clinton.
        \_ "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. ... There's nothing
           in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully
           applying that precedent."
           \_ I also read an article today that said he was speaking for a
              client, and not from his personal view, when advocating for Roe
              v. Wade to be overturned.
        \_ Does it mean anything that he's a Harvard man?
           \- no. HLS is one of the largest law schools in the country.
              who he clerked for might mean more ... what ever that means.
              half the sup ct went to harvard.
              \_ He clerked for Sith Lord Rheinquist.
              \_ Of course it means something. You are naive. It even
                 means more that he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. It
                 is not a coincidence that half the supreme court and 10%
                 of Congress went to HLS. Seven US Presidents are Harvard
                 grads. This is how the upper class perpetuates itself.
           \_ Souter graduated Harvard undergrad magna cum laude, and also
              graduated Harvard Law.  Appointed by Bush I in 1990.
              Scalia is also a Harvard Law grad, as well as Breyer and
              Kennedy.
              \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel.
                 -- ilyas
2005/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38737 Activity:nil
6/19    NY Times with apparently accurate (non-biased) background article
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
        on Roberts:
       http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/politics/politicsspecial1/20judge.html
        "On the other side of the political equation, he is likely to be
        confirmed, at least with far less trouble than many of the other
        candidates who had been listed as possible Bush choices. Even as
        Democrats were resisting many of Mr. Bush's other appeals court
        candidates with filibusters, Mr. Roberts was approved by a vote of 16
        to 3 in the Judiciary Committee and confirmed without a roll call vote
        on May 9, 2003." (you can bet the 3 no's were for the abortion thing)
        Filibuster at your own peril. -liberal/moderate
2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38717 Activity:nil 71%like:38725
6/20    Do you soda liberals agree Larry Kramer is a homosexual liar?
        \_ who is he, why should we care? unless you're mimicking the WH's
           favorite distraction strategy.
           \_ If you don't know I am not interested in your opinion.
              I am jut wondering if you blindly support liberal, like the
              "I lurve George Bush" guy blindly supports Bush.
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
        \_ I am pretty sure the guy is married. What does his sexual
           orientation have to do with anything anyway? -soda liberal
           \_ Some liberals could not stand to see Larry Kramer discussed
              so they are changing to Tucker, who I dont like.
2005/7/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38720 Activity:nil
6/19    NY Times with apparently accurate (non-biased) background article
        on Roberts:
       http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/politics/politicsspecial1/20judge.html
        "On the other side of the political equation, he is likely to be
        confirmed, at least with far less trouble than many of the other
        candidates who had been listed as possible Bush choices. Even as
        Democrats were resisting many of Mr. Bush's other appeals court
        candidates with filibusters, Mr. Roberts was approved by a vote of 16
        to 3 in the Judiciary Committee and confirmed without a roll call vote
        on May 9, 2003." (you can bet the 3 no's were for the abortion thing)
        Filibuster at your own peril. -liberal/moderate
2005/7/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38712 Activity:moderate
6/19    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1108389946956
        Supreme Court choice John C. Roberts Jr. reported by multiple sources
        is sharp, but will probably vote to overturn Roe v. Wade.
        I say there should be no filibuster attempt. -liberal/moderate
        \_ Roe v. Wade *should* be overturned.  And then (or even prior)
           congress should pass laws about privacy, etc.
           \_ If you're a strict constructionist, then you believe Roe v.
              Wade should be overturned.  On the other hand, if you're Sandra
              Day, you would uphold it.  Which is more valid?  You got me.
        \_ The magic number is 50. Assuming everything equal, he'll be around
           for the next 30-odd years.
           \_ When a Democrat is President, he or she can also nominate a
              sharp 50-year-old with little in judicial opinions written down
              but believed to be as liberal as you can get, but also one who
              has stated that they support being impartial over being
              predictable.
              \_ Only if someone on SCOTUS dies or retires during his
                 presidency. Cf. Clinton.
        \_ "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. ... There's nothing
           in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully
           applying that precedent."
           \_ I also read an article today that said he was speaking for a
              client, and not from his personal view, when advocating for Roe
              v. Wade to be overturned.
        \_ Does it mean anything that he's a Harvard man?
           \- no. HLS is one of the largest law schools in the country.
              who he clerked for might mean more ... what ever that means.
              half the sup ct went to harvard.
              \_ He clerked for Sith Lord Rheinquist.
              \_ Of course it means something. You are naive. It even
                 means more that he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. It
                 is not a coincidence that half the supreme court and 10%
                 of Congress went to HLS. Seven US Presidents are Harvard
                 grads. This is how the upper class perpetuates itself.
           \_ Souter graduated Harvard undergrad magna cum laude, and also
              graduated Harvard Law.  Appointed by Bush I in 1990.
              Scalia is also a Harvard Law grad, as well as Breyer and
              Kennedy.
              \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel. -- ilyas
              \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel.
                 -- ilyas
2005/7/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38710 Activity:nil
7/19    Biased source, but Rove may not have told the FBI about Matt Cooper
        at all in 2003:
        http://csua.org/u/crt (prospect.org)
2005/7/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38700 Activity:kinda low
7/19    "My answer hasn't changed in 24 hours" seems like Bush
        is starting to realize no one trusts him anymore.
        \_ I'm glad you learned nothing from 2004 Election.
           \_ What did he not learn?  Are you the "there's only room for one
              party in America" guy?
                \_ The lesson is that it doesn't matter how corrupt, dishonest
                   or dangerous the ruling party is because God wants Bush
                   to rule, so get used to it.
                   \_ No, it's that dumbasses like you aren't worth the time.
                      If you want to talk rationally we can do that, but it's
                      become increasingly difficult to talk to anyone who's
                      rational.
                      \_ Heh. -- ilyas
                         \_ I wonder if he will see the error in his sentence,
                            although he speaks more truth than he realizes.
                            \_ Oh, I'm responding to vitriol with vitriol.  I
                               know what I wrote and the potential irony.
                               \_ Acknowledging your stupidity doesn't make
                                  you any less stupid or any less a part of
                                  the problem.  You seem to be missing this.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38682 Activity:kinda low
7/16    Religion is strong. Faith is hot. A time of doubt for Atheists:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/atimeofdoubtforatheists (latimes)
        \_ No god worth believing in would have allowed such wankery to be
           published.
        \_ It's clear to me many years ago that the liberals are losing
           and the conservatives are kicking serious ass. When you can't
           beat them, you join them. From now on, I am claiming to be
           "spiritual" and I'm going to register as a Republican, short
           of actually voting for one. I will convert to Conservatism and
           repent later.                        -disillusioned motd troll
           \_ Cool, go for it.  In the meantime I'll pick up your share of
              laughing at all the fucking morons.  -John
        \_ Who is Faith?
           \_ http://www.inbedwithfaith.com (NWS)
              \_ Someone on the motd is very clearly a boob-man.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38681 Activity:very high
7/18    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/29/novak.cia
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml
        Above is the original http://CNN.com story and Novak's follow-up column from
        two years ago.
        If we assume that Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent, it would appear
        that the main people to blame are Novak and his unofficial CIA source.
        Novak said, "According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson
        was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative and not in charge of
        undercover operators".
        This is technically not true -- Plame was a NOC.  The view of Novak's
        unofficial CIA source was that Plame worked in the U.S. most of the
        time as an analyst, and that Plame was also well known in Washington
        (probably gossipped about on the "cocktail circuit" as Joe Wilson's hot
        wife the CIA agent), so she therefore wasn't covert.
        This was a mistake by Novak and his CIA source, even with all of
        Novak's excuses, since the CIA did erect an entire front company for
        Plame and the _official_ CIA source told him not to use her name.
        Novak considerably broadened the number of people who knew of Valerie
        Plame the CIA agent:  from people on the DC cocktail circuit, to anyone
        interested in the WMD controversy in Iraq -- which means a whole lot
        of people on the left and right.
        Again, I am assuming Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent.
        (I am purposely going to ignore the http://CNN.com story's lead sentence:
        "while [Novak] learned the identity of a CIA operative from
        administration officials, there was 'no great crime' and that he was
        not the recipient of a planned leak".)
        \_ The public ain't buying it:
           http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=949950
           \_ What does the poll have to do with the post?
        \_ Where is it proven that Plame was NOC at the time (or recently)?
           The Washington Times says that she was "outed" a decade ago:
           http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040722-115439-4033r.htm
           \_ The Washington Times is a mouthpiece for the GOP.
           \_ It can't be proven (by anyone here), but when the CIA asks the
              DoJ to launch a criminal investigation, I defer to their
              knowledge of the situation.  And, really, washington times?
                                           \_ Oh shut the fuck up.
                                              \_ You think WT is a reputable
                                                 news source?  Leave now.
              \_ This is the same CIA that said there was WMD in Iraq?  And
                 did you defer to their knowledge then?
                 \_ We don't know what the CIA said about Iraq's WMD.  We know
                    what the President said they said.  And the inquiry into
                    that transaction, which was supposed to happen, still
                    hasn't.
                    \_ I'm not the guy you're reponding to, but Duelfer's
                       report pretty much says the CIA screwed it all up.
                       There was also supposed to be an investigation into how
                       the Administration used the CIA's screwed up
                       intelligence, but that investigation didn't happen.
                 \_ The President deferred to the CIA's judgment that WMDs were
                    in Iraq, or at least, that's what the story is.
           \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..."
              \_ Which adds nothing.  Where is it factually stated that Plame
                 was NOC at any recent time before Novak's column?
                 \_ It's likely not.  It would be dangerous and possibly
                    illegal to state that openly.  See Blitzer's interview
                    with Wilson.
                 \_ No, it responds to the statement, "says that she was
                    'outed' a decade ago".  As for "proven", it's not yet
                    proven, but the preponderance of evidence is that it is
                    so.  This is addressed in my second post beginning,
                    "The CIA's asking ..." later in this thread.
           \_ The Washington Times says Reverend Moon can cure teh gay. Ah,
              the joys of owning your own paper.
              \_ How do you know he can't?
                 \_ It's likely not.  It would be illegal to state that openly.
                    See Blitzer's interview with Wilson.
                 \_ 'Cos the first three mass weddings didn't stick.
           \_ sfchron response to this claim: "But the CIA didn't hesitate
              to forward the leak allegation to the Justice Department for
              possible prosecution. She operated a front company based in
              Boston and sometimes traveled overseas posing as a private
              energy analyst, yet she also had a desk at CIA's Langley
              headquarters. Some fellow agents who knew her as Val P. in
              training recall her proficiency with foreign languages and an
              AK-47, but she said her work as a spy was unknown to friends
              and neighbors."   http://csua.org/u/cqu
              \_ Oh yeah, sfchron.  That settles that argument.
                 \_ Washington Times and NY Post have long, well-earned
                    reputations for being rags. The SF Chron has a horrible
                    writing style (and I hate it), but no one questions their
                    journalistic integrity.
                    \_ What?  No one questions the SFComical's journalistic
                       integrity?  The other two have well-earned reputations
                       as rags?  I've barely read the NYP or WT but I've read
                       the SFComical for years.  Who exactly are these people
                       that share this 'commonly accepted public perception'
                       with you?  Is there some web page I can find somewhere?
                       thanks!
                    \_ Yeah, uh, that's pretty funny.  SF Chron is even worse
                       than the LA "we only dig dirt on republican candidates"
                       Times. -- ilyas
                       \_ On what do you base this criticism of the L.A. Times?
                          \_ LA Times went on record when Davis was running for
                             governor saying they don't dig dirt on governor
                             candidates.  However, they sent most of their
                             reporters to dig dirt on Arnold during the recall.
                             This was a fairly big issue in LA at the time.
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Can you find the URL?  Even without the URL, I
                                can tell you that what probably happened was
                                that Davis's faults were all self-evident (look
                                at the damn budget deficit), while Ahnold's
                                escapades were all plausiably deniable ("oh,
                                escapades were all plausibly deniable ("oh,
                                it's all gossip and probably just happened when
                                he was young and defining himself, and even if
                                it were true, hey, it's Ahnold!"), so they
                                sought to make his groping more evident to
                                voters ("Yes, you are really electing someone
                                who at the very least is a groper.")
                                -L.A. resident and frequent L.A. Times reader
                                who voted for Arnold anyway
                                who voted for Arnold anyway, and will vote
                                Ahnold out at the next opportunity since his
                                performance has not been adequate (please don't
                                ask me to compare to Davis -- it's like
                                different varieties of "bad")
                                \_ Does the blatant hypocrisy of that paper
                                   not bother you one bit, or do you just
                                   not believe me?  -- ilyas
                                   \_ When the topic is Ahnold's groping, my
                                      opinion is that they did the right thing.
                                      Like I wrote before, Davis's faults were
                                      plain to all voters.  Yes, I voted for
                                      someone I was pretty sure was a groper,
                                      and I knew that at the time I voted.
                                      I did so because Davis's failures could
                                      not be excused.
                                      When the topic is "blatant hypocrisy of
                                      that paper" in general, I dispute that
                                      there is a "blatant hypocrisy", but
                                      put the L.A. Times at the high-end of
                                      professional journalism.
                                      I consider myself a voracious consumer of
                                      all major Internet-accessible news
                                      outlets and referenced original sources
                                      (cia.gov) for the last five or so years.
                                      I've also been paying attention to the
                                      left- and right-wing blogs and forums.
                                      I, like Bill O'Reilly says he does,
                                      call things as I see them, preferring
                                      to identify things as accurate or
                                      inaccurate portrayals of the truth of
                                      the matter rather than "left-wing" or
                                      "right-wing".
                                      Of course, I could be totally wrong about
                                      the L.A. Times, just like I think
                                      O'Reilly doesn't get it right in many
                                      fundamental ways, but at that point it's
                                      just a matter of how solid your argument
                                      and facts are versus the other person's.
                                      \_ I think there are multiple levels of
                                         hypocrisy here.  That LA Times covered
                                         Arnold's faults but not Davis' at the
                                         time of the recall is one problem
                                         (that Davis' faults were 'plain to see'
                                         is not really an excuse for a paper).
                                         But LA Times also did not dig dirt on
                                         Davis when Davis himself was running
                                         for office!  And more, they claimed it
                                         was a matter of policy for them not to.
                                         The violation of their own stated
                                         policy is also hypocritical. -- ilyas
                                         \_ My contention is that Davis's
                                            problems had been well publicized,
                                            which made them widely
                                            acknowledged.
                                            They already dumped a shitload on
                                            Davis -- they just hadn't done so
                                            on Ahnold yet.
                                            Anyways, can you find the URLs?
                                            I occasionally find myself blaming
                                            a news outlet for some apparent
                                            problem but later realize that I
                                            misread what was written.
                                            \_ They were never plain to me.
                                               What were they, in your eyes?
                                               --scotsman
                                               \_ $x billion budget deficit,
                                                  I forgot whether x was 21
                                                  or 40.
                                                  I assume that was why
                                                  Davis was voted out in
                                                  such a big way -- that other
                                                  people saw this ...
                                            \_ The important person here is
                                               former LA Times reporter Jill
                                               Stewart.  See for instance:
                        http://www.jillstewart.net/php/issues/issue1014.php
                                                 -- ilyas
                                               \_ Thanks.  I was reading that
                                                  exact URL between when you
                                                  posted Jill's name and when
                                                  you posted the URL.
                                                  This sums up my argument
                                                  though:  The L.A. Times staff
                                                  has a bias against gropers
                                                  being elected governor of
                                                  California.  This bias is
                                                  excusable in my book.
                                                  (Also, I know this undercuts
                                                  my position, but I had been
                                                  pretty pissed about the
                                                  groping articles coming out
                                                  two weeks for the election,
                                                  but I've since changed my
                                                  mind.)
           \_ Your links says: "Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA
              officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a
              Moscow spy"  Umm... Russia intelligence may know about or have
              guesses about a great number of our secret operatives, as we
              likely have similar knowledge or guesses of theirs.  Neither
              party knowing that information is the same as "public knowledge."
           \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..."
           \_ The CIA's asking the DoJ to conduct a criminal investigation
              is the strongest evidence that Plame was NOC at the time.
              C'mon -- you have a special prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald,
              bugging Dubya, Cheney, Rove, and Libby after all.
              Here is a non-anonymous column written by a former CIA agent:
              http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340
              "A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became
              a non-official cover officer.  That meant she agreed to operate
              overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport.  If
              caught in that status she would have been executed."
              This is weaker than the fact there is an investigation going
              on now, but stronger than as if it had come from an anoymous
              author.
              \_ You know, Johnson was doing well until he started bashing
                 Bush.
                 \_ Let's ignore what Johnson wrote about Bush and focus on
                    the topic at hand:
                    What do you think about the truth of the claim (that Plame
                    was NOC for a while and was still NOC when Novak published
                    his column) itself?  Do consider that there is an ongoing
                    investigation with a grand jury and testimony from VIPs
                    taking place right now.
                    \_ Well, should I ignore what Johnson wrote about Plume's
                       NOC status also?  Are Johnson's claims re Plume credible
                       after his partisan rant?  Do I trust the CIA to know
                       more about its employees than about Iraq?  Is the CIA
                       Justice referral more motivated by politics?  My
                       answers: yes, no, yes, don't know.
                       \_ While you answered four questions you volunteered
                          yourself, you forgot to answer the question that's
                          the topic at hand in this particular thread:
                          "What do you think about the truth of the claim (that
                          Plame was NOC for a while and was still NOC when
                          Novak published his column) itself?  Do consider that
                          there is an ongoing investigation with a grand jury
                          and testimony from VIPs taking place right now."
                          \_ What's the evidence that she was or wasn't a
                             NOC at the time?
                             \_ Search this thread for "strongest evidence".
                                It's in the post right before you say,
                                "You know, Johnson was doing well until he
                                started bashing Bush."
                                \_ And I asked "Is the CIA Justice referral
                                   more motivated by politics?".  "Don't know,"
                                   I answered.  BTW, I see that you are
                                   abandoning Johnson whom you were originally
                                   touting as evidence.
        \_ Ah, but Novak called her an "operative" in his column two years
           ago. Now he claims he just knew she was an "analyst." If so,
           why did he call her an operative, when he good and well knows
           the difference. Novak is lying to try and cover for Rove.
           http://csua.org/u/cr2
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38676 Activity:high
7/18    Bush says any "criminal" involvement in leak will lead to firing;
        seriously, how is this not a flipflop?
        \_ You apparently haven't been paying attention.  Maybe you can suggest
           why you think it is a flipflop?
           \_ On the contrary, I've been paying attention carefully. His
              mouthpiece, McClellan, said, in a press conference that Bush
              said that anyone involved in the case would no longer work for
              the administration; Bush has now added the word "criminally."
              If this is not a flipflop, is it not at the very least a
              "nuanced" position?
              \_ flip flop: f(x) = -x
                 nuance: f(x) = x +/- epsilon
                 \_ In light of the official quote below, what is your
                    call?  Flip flop, nuance, or in-between?
                    \_ f(involved) = criminally involved
                       Certainly not a flip flop.  Nuanced?  Is "criminally"
                       bigger than epsilon?  Probably.  I'd call it a
                       refinement, where f(x) = x +/- delta, and delta < x.
                       \_ If this were a Democratic administration, they'd
                          be screaming for heads to roll.
                          \_ Shrug.  The Democrats are screaming for heads to
                             roll.  Why do you persist in thinking there is
                             any difference between R and D behavior?
                    \_ The "it" was "outing a covert CIA agent".  That's a
                       crime, so if anyone is convicted, we'll know if they
                       were involved.  Seems consistent to me.
                       \_ Why didn't anyone bother to check whether Plame was
                          a CIA NOC at the time?  Rove does have Top Secret
                          clearance.
                          \_ If Rove heard it from a reporter, he didn't get it
                             through secret means.
                             \_ Even if this bullshit is true, he passed on the
                                info to Cooper, according to Cooper's testimony
                             \_ Am I on crazy pills or are you suggessting
                                that Rove got his info from a reporter, not
                                that he gave info to a reporter?
                                \_ That's what Rove said--that he heard it from
                                   Novak and mentioned it in his email to
                                   Cooper.
                                   \_ Which, of course, directly contradicts
                                      everything Novak has said on the matter.
                                      It's amazing what happens when you get
                                      this many habitual liars together.
                                      \_ Um, no it doesn't.  Please show how
                                         this contradicts Novak.
                                         \_ "I didn't dig it out, it was given
                                            to me. They thought it was
                                            significant. They gave me the name
                                            and I used it." --Bob Novak to
                                            Newsweek, July 22, 2003.
                                         \_ Also see http://CNN.com link in new
                                            thread at top of motd.
           \_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
              Q No, but you say that --
              MR. McCLELLAN: -- that suggests White House involvement. There
              are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The President
              has set high standards, the highest of standards for people in
              his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his
              administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest
              standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was
              involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38674 Activity:kinda low
7/16    You guys are screwed! Loser, ha ha ha ha                -conservative
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050718/ap_on_re_us/party_money
        \_ What's their stock symbol?
           \_ REPU
           \_ TWAT  -John
           \_ FUCU
2005/7/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:38669 Activity:nil
7/16    Rove: "I've already said too much."
        http://csua.org/u/cqf (Yahoo! news)
        \_ Yeah? So? The President has been doing whatever he pleases and
           nothing touches him or his staff. What's the point for fighting...
2005/7/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38642 Activity:nil
7/15    Rove's not Bush's brain.  I've seen Bush's brain, and Rove's not it.
        Cheney is:  http://csua.org/u/cqa (antiwar blog)
        Speculation that Fitzgerald will be after Cheney's office, next, as
        the source of the leak to Rove.
        \_ Too bad--of all the evil hairy trolls in the Bush administration I
           kind of like Dick best--he's a fat evil bastard, but at least he's
           an unapologetic fat evil bastard who's reasonably honest about his
           fat evil bastardness.  You kind of have to appreciate that.  -John
2005/7/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38641 Activity:high
7/15    Between the several Rove announcements over the last
        few days it is not looking good for the Dems.
        Who Exposed Secret Agent Plame?
        http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp   -jblack
        \_ In contrast, I think things are just heating up, and I wouldn't
           say "the Dems" -- I'd say anyone who's anti-Rove-leak is pretty
           pissed.
        \_ Justin Black, Bush encouraged supporters of the war to hang a flag
           this weekend. I have a better idea. Why don't the Americans who
           support the war enlist in the armed services today? It's clear
           that our military is overstretched and our forces in Iraq are too
           few. It seems to me that you people would rather fight the media
           than the insurgents.
        \_ It's interesting you have linked to an article from
           clifford may, one of the guys who's claimed to have known
           for the last 50 years that valerie plame was a secret
           agent. - danh
        \_ well I guess as NR articles go, that wasn't too terrible.
        \_ Does you ever wake up in the middle of the night
           and realize that Karl Rove and his zombie army are a bunch
           of shitheads?
        \_ So was Novak just the patsy?
           AP poll, July 11-13:  42% of Americans approve of Dubya's job as
           President, 56% disapprove.  40% approve of Dubya's handling of
           Iraq, 59% disapprove.  http://csua.org/u/cqc
           \_ You just don't get it. I voted for Bush because I liked his
              personal qualities. Unlike Kerry, Bush is straightforward
           \_ You just don't get it. I voted for Bush because he is a white
              Christian man. Unlike Kerry, Bush is straightforward
              and never looks down on anybody. He is not a snob. He is not
              French. Most importantly, he is pro-life, religious, and is
              tough on terrorists. There's a great sense of connection I
              have with Bush that I just can't explain, but as long as it
              exists, I trust the President to always do what is right.
              In the end, doing right thing is more important than doing
              what is popular. Darn it, I think I may have been trolled.
              \_ Are you familiar with the concept of a "cult of personality?"
                 \_ Hi.  You don't know what a cult of personality is. -- ilyas
                    \_ Explain it, then.  How is it different than pp's blind
                       hero worship?
                       \_ I am not getting into this.  Read some things on
                          existing personality cults, and think about it.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
                             "Cult of personality or personality cult is a
                             term for what is perceived to be excessive
                             adulation of a single living leader."
                             Again... how was my question to the blind Bush
                             worshipper above unwarranted?
                             \_ Listen, mental giant, since you insist, I will
                                spell it out for you.  He doesn't worship Bush.
                                He likes Bush.  Like inner city kids like
                                Michael Jordan.  Neither Bush nor Michael Jordan
                                are perfect by any means, but to say they enjoy
                                a cult of personality like Stalin or Mao is
                                beyond moronic.  Excessive adulation of Bush
                                would be like giant portraits of him hanging
                                everywhere, shrines in people's living rooms,
                                etc.  Cult of personality is not a relationship
                                between a single person and a leader, it's
                                a relationship between a people and a leader.
                                This 'liking of Bush' that you find so
                                distasteful is a similar thing to that famous
                                quote by Nina Burleigh saying she will happily
                                give Clinton a blowjob just because he kept the
                                woman's right to choose.  Is that cult of
                                personality too?  Give me a fucking break.
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Uhhhh, chill man... you've been trolled?
              \_ Who gave Britney Spears a soda account?
        \_ jblack, can you EVER point a url that is not of conservative
           bias? Can you post anything other than http://chronwatch.com,
           http://federalist.com, http://foxnews.com, http://freerepublic.com, http://nationalreview.com,
           http://newsmax.com, http://taemag.com, http://tysknews.com, http://worldnetdaily.com, etc?
           I'd like to know. And if you don't think these are of
           conservative bias, check again: <DEAD>slantcheck.org<DEAD>
           \_ For once jblack has posted a nationalreview url without
              claiming it's impartial or balanced or nice on liberals.
              I think he should be exiled to Disneyland though if he
              keeps posting worldnetdaily/newsmax urls though
        \_ Which famous conservative authored the following quote:
           'I know reporters and I know liberals, like I know every square inch
           'I know reporters and I know liberals like every square inch
            of my glorious naked body.'?  -- ilyas
           \_ That's Rush Limbaugh. I LOVE RUSH LIMBAUGH! He's funny.
              \_ He's also a druggie.  Go druggies!
           \_ I consider myself liberal and every minute NOT spent
              contemplating Rush Limbaugh's naked body is a quality minute.
2005/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38631 Activity:nil
7/14    Rehnquist to public: "Nah, bitch!"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050715/ap_on_go_su_co/rehnquist
        \_ Sounds to me like he might not survive to the end of Bush
           presidency though.
2005/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38630 Activity:moderate
7/14    If Rove did nothing wrong please explain why the White House isn't
        shouting out their love for him right now?  Gee, funny how waiting
        to see how the wind blows makes you look bad.
        \_ If Rove is found guilty, then the Dems would make fun of Reps
           for supporting him. So it's probably better to be quiet. However,
           if Rove is NOT found guilty, then the the silence would work
           to Reps' advantage-- they're more gentlemen like. Also it would
           just make Dems seem stupid, when he's not found guilty, which
           I think will be the most likely outcome.
           \_ So they think there is a decent chance he will be found guilty?
              \_ They probably just think there is a decent chance he'll
                 be tossed for being caught red-handed doing something
                 unscrupulous while blowing someone's wife's cover - not
                 necessarily found guilty.
                 That is, unless you believe all the talk about Rove not
                 really leaking Plame's identity but merely confirming it for
                 snoopy reporters.
        \_ It seems to be a pretty standard thing for the Bush admin to
           keep quiet in crisis.  It seems to work well for them.
           \_ Yeah, true, imagine if they'd actually made rousing passionate
              speeches instead of cowering in bunkers the morning of 9/11.
        \_ If Rove did something wrong, how come he hasn't been charged yet?
           \_ patience, grasshopper.
2005/7/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38623 Activity:high
7/14    ok conservative pigfuckers, why does it matter whether valerie
        plame authorized her husband going to Niger to report
        selling yellowcake?  How does this affect whether Rove should
        be punished for revealing she has been a deep undercover
        agent for the last 20 years?
        \_ Because everything is politics.  There is no right and wrong.
           If you make everyone look equally sleazy, you can get away with
           anything.
        \_ there's an article on Salon I think today from sid blumenthal
           saying that Wilson's wife never authorized the trip, and in any
           case was not in a position to even authorize it.  also I agree
           that who cares who authorized the trip?  Does anyone remember
           Ed "pig biting mad" Anger? - danh
           \_ They don't care if anyone actually believes. They're just trying
              to spread FUD.  Don't buy into it.
        \_ I'm not a pigfucker, but I'll give it a go.  No one is saying that
           Plame authorized the trip.  My understanding is that Rove was
           saying to Cooper, "don't pay attention to this Wilson guy, because
           he only got the trip because his wife's in the CIA".  We now know
           that Plame *did* recommend her husband.  I've never seen his report
           (which Wilson claims showed that Iraq had not been looking for U in
           Niger).  The point is, Wilson has already been shown to be a lying
           sleezeball.  It doesn't look like Rove really did anything wrong.
           \_ Who cares about Wilson.  No matter what happened (And I think
              your whole Wilson was lieing is full of shit.) Rove LEAKED
              a covert CIA agent's cover.  A covert CIA agent who was working
              with preventing WMD proliferation.  Rove leaked the name for
              no reason other than to get back at someone.  In the process he
              also leaked a CIA cover company and destroyed other agent's
              covers.  Why are you trying to defend this?
           \_ read http://tinyurl.com/8obkt . The article says "
              wilson's wife did not authorize the trip."  but like i said,
              who cares who authorized the trip?  - danh
              \_ dan, use motdedit. you stomped on me.
           \_ How often does it have to be said.  Repeating it doesn't make
              it true.  What did he lie about?  How does it feel to defend
              someone who single-handedly demolished a CIA front company?
              \_ You know what's really sad?  Both you and pp are both just
                 regurgitating talking points drafted by someone else.
                 The Republicans are much better at this sort of Pravdaesque
                 manipulation, so I expect them to survive this quite nicely.
                 \_ you got me, I read the same stuff everyone else does.
                    It infuriates me when someone prints in the media the
                    exact polar opposite of what actually occured.  For example
                    read in the Chronicle: http://tinyurl.com/c77w2
                    I am pretty sure Wilson's report said that Niger was not
                    selling yellowcake to Iraq.  It's like the officers
                    beating Rodney King claiming they were beating the
                    crap out of him to help out his skin complexion.  - danh
        \_ Wilson, through his Congressional testimony that
           contradicts his newspaper articles and quotes, has
           already been proven a fraud.  Even Kerry, who initially
           appointed Wilson an advisor, backed away from him during
           the election.  What you likely have here is an attempt by the
           Democrats and their media abettors to create a scandal
           during an election season that has subsequently blown
           up in their face.  Of course time will tell.
           Since Wilson had extensive business interests in Africa and
           Middle East, including Niger, his wife's role in
           his selection is very pertinent.
           \_ did you read danh's link?
           \_ What's most important though, is that each of these claims is
              irrelevant.
              irrelevant to the subject at hand.  Rove outed a CIA agent.
              It wouldn't matter if Joe Wilson was the seven-headed beast of
              the apocalypse.
           \_ Point out a lie. Please. Still waiting.
        \_ So, I haven't been following this too closely, but everything
           I've read seems to indicate that Rove did not actually leak
           classified info.  Saying 'X' works at the CIA, especially when
           such fact is already known, is not a leak.  It only became a
           'leak' when it turned out that she was actually undercover at
           the time, which apparently Rove didn't know.  How can someone
           leak info they don't know?  Rove's actions in trying to
           discredit Wilson, while not pure, are at least reasonable in
           that Wilson is actually not very credible.  I think that's the
           only reason anyone cares about Wilson.  I think danh's link was
           the most balanced thing I've read though... -jrleek
           \_ Did you actually read danh's link?  Quote:
              No, Rove didn't "reveal the name." But the law doesn't cite
              that as a felony; it only specifies revealing the "identity" as
              a crime. It says nothing about a "name."  Rove revealed "Joe
              Wilson's wife." That qualifies as an "identity."  By the way,
              Plame did not go by the name of Plame, but Wilson -- in other
              words, Mrs. Wilson, or "Joe Wilson's wife." Rove seemed to know
              that much -- her identity."
              Also, what do you mean by "especially when such fact is
              already known"?  Are you saying it was widely known that
              Plame was a NOC working in weapons of mass destruction for CIA?
              I mean, it certainly became widely known she was a CIA agent
              working WMDs after Novak's article.
              \_ The law also requires you to have learned the identity and/or
                 status from classified sources, and have the intent to expose
                 the agent.  It appears now that Rove learned that Wilson's
                 wife was in the CIA from Novak (not a classified source) and
                 that his purpose was to warn Cooper away from trusting Wilson
                 as a source because he got the Niger job not because of
                 qualifications but because of family ties.  No, Plame didn't
                 /approve/ the job (she didn' thave the authority), but she
                 /did/ present Wilson's name as a candidate (which Wilson
                 denies but which has been proven in a memo found by the Senate
                 Intelligence Committee). -emarkp
                \_ I think you're chewing on RNC talking points this morning.
                   What would make Wilson more qualified?  He served as a
                   diplomat in Niger, Togo, Burundi, South Africa,
                   Gabon, and Sao Tome, plus Iraq.  The CIA claims that
                   Wilson was chosen based on his experiences, not because
                   of who his wife is. - danh
                   \_ Well, the CIA _did_ screw up the pre-war intel, so
                      we know how reliable they are....
                   \_ I don't think he was unqualified.  But that's what Rove
                      was trying to say.  I find it odd that Wilson denies that
                      his wife recommended him.  At any rate, I haven't read
                      any "RNC talking points" this morning. -emarkp
2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38594 Activity:low
7/13    "I say give Karl Rove a medal, even if Bush has to fire him."
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162335,00.html
        \_ stop stomping.
        \_ stop stomping other people's posts.
        \_ That's as silly as giving George Tenet a medal ... Oh wait ...
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38577 Activity:nil
7/12    The Democrats Fight Against Democracy and the Constitution:
        http://tinyurl.com/7gghk (freeper link)
        \_ *sniff* I don't know whether to spew because of the content of the
           post or because our own little freeper troll has finally figured
           out how to use tinyurl.
           \_ Proof that not all Conservatives are as stupid as the ones
              you meet in Fresno.
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:38575 Activity:nil
7/12    London Bombing: Further Proof We're Winning
        http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=15626
        \_ I wanna see you people tell the British that we're "fighting them
           there so we don't have to fight them here"...
           \_ Maybe if the Brits arrested people who openly called for the
              overthrow of their own government they wouldn't have been bombed.
              Here's a nutty idea: fighting them there doesn't matter if we're
              inviting them over here.
        \_ This is even dumber than the Freeper links you keep posting.
           It is all one ad hominem rant vs. Senator Kennedy. Where do
           you find these pearls of Conservative "wisdom"?
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38572 Activity:nil
7/12    Rove is here to stay and Bush expresses confidence. There is only
        room for one party in the United States and if you don't like
        it shut your mouth. You liberals lost, get over it.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050712/pl_nm/bush_leak_dc
        \_ you're the one deleting replies to your threads, hiding url's,
           and generally being a baby.
        \_ 'The key questions went unanswered by the White House for a second
            straight day. So far this week, McClellan has told reporters 23
            times that he would not comment because of the "ongoing
            investigation."'
        \_ ahem. deleting replies again, I see. GROW UP.
        \_ "...only room for one party..." Hmm, where have I heard that
           line before? Is that Mao or Lenin?
           \_ Godwin to thread!
              \_ Christ, you're embarrassing me.  How can you call yourself a
                 tech geek and not know what Godwin's Law is???
2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:38567 Activity:high
7/12    Today's White House press briefing
        http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html
        "Let's let the investigation take place, and let's let the
        investigators bring all the facts together and draw the conclusions
        that they draw, and then we will know the facts at that point."
        Translation:  Dubya buys time for Roveian general to execute on GOP
        plans, with expectation that Rove will come out fine anyway since the
        base doesn't really care.
        In case you didn't figure it out yet:  Dubya's current and future
        position is he will only be firing people for illegal acts with
        convictions, not for merely being "involved" in the Plame affair as
        a previously reported position.
        \_ I call flip-flop on them!
        \_ From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
           (My quotes are going to be partial for emphasis.  See the page above
           for the full context.)
           Q: has the President tried to find out who outed the CIA agent?
           ...
           McClellan: if someone leaked classified information of this nature..
           ...
           McClellan:  the President believes leaking classified information is
           a very serious matter
           It's fairly clear that McClellan was saying that anoyone in the WH
           who leaked classified info would be gone.  It doesn't appear that
           Rove did that.
           \_ Why would you say that it doesn't appear that Rove didn't leak
           \_ Why would you say that it doesn't appear that Rove leaked
              classified info?
              \_ Because saying "You know the reason he got that job is because
                 his wife is in the CIA" may not have revealed classified info.
                 \_ But that isn't what he said. He said his wife was a
                    CIA operative. Pretty clear cut what that means.
                 \_ Because the CIA is in the habit of calling for
                    investigations by the DoJ just because...
                 \_ that sounds like a leak of classified info to me.
                    I guess it depends on what the meanings of "leak" and
                    "classified" are.
                    "I did not leak classified info to that man, Mr. Cooper!"
                    \_ Is being in the employ of the CIA classified?
                       \_ When it is, yes.  You're deliberately being obtuse.
                            \_ huh?
                               \_ When the person's affiliation needs to be
                                  secret, it's classified.  You're an idiot.
                          The CIA requested an independent investigation.  It's
                          been ongoing for 2 years. if there was no there there
                          don't you think it would have been wrapped up with a
                          bow by now.
                          \_ I'm not being obtuse, you're being a dumbass.
                             We'll find out at the END of the investigation if
                             he violated the law.  If he did, he should be out
                             of there.  If he didn't, shut the fuck up.
                             \_ Yawn. The man's guilty. This is just what he's
                                been caught at. I say hang 'im.
                             \_ The END of the investigation... in 2010? 2020?
                             \_ Uh, I hate to be a nancy about this, but you
                                should write, "If he did, I should shut the
                                fuck up.  If he didn't, you should shut the
                                fuck up."  Are you an undergrad?
                                \_ Actually, no.  I'm no lefty partisan, but I
                                   also don't want someone who would leak
                                   classified info in the WH.  So if he's found
                                   to be guilty, I'll join the chorus demanding
                                   that he be fired.
                                   \_...but until then, Shut the Fuck Up?
                                      \_ Yeah, let's all stfu until the
                                         investigation is over.
                                         \_ Can't we complain about the
                                            previous pronouncements that Rove
                                            had nothing to do with the Plame
                                            affair, and that it was ridiculous
                                            to suggest that?
                                            \_ He never said he had nothing to
                                               do with it. Just that it was
                                               a ridiculous suggestion. Maybe
                                               he means the whole situation is
                                               worthy of ridicule.
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38559 Activity:nil
7/12    Story describing verbal exchange during yesterday's WH press
        conference, including listing reporters' identities:
        http://csua.org/u/coo (Post)
        "McClellan is indeed well liked by the press corps. But that counts
        for little now, when recent events have shown that he either misled
        reporters deliberately or was duped by his White House colleagues."
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38557 Activity:nil
7/12    "President Bush, at an Oval Office photo opportunity Tuesday, was asked
        directly whether he would fire Rove in keeping with a pledge in June,
        2004, to dismiss any leakers in the case. The president did not
        respond."
        http://csua.org/u/cok
        \_ Re: The other day's press conference. Is there a way to learn who
           the reporters were that Scott McClellan was addressing (besides
           Richard, Dave, John, Dana, Terry and so on)? I'd like to know who
           they are, particularly the ones who were (gasp!) asking real
           questions and the guy who lobbed him non-questions. -- ulysses
           \_ Al Franken has a 2nd cousin, Bob, in the White House Press Corps
              who apparently caught McClellan as he was leaving and said
              "Scott, one more question.... Never mind, it's not worth it."
              Who'll bet that Scott is gone before Karl? --scotsman
           \_ Okay, the original .wmv I posted has what you want:
              http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.wmv
              Better quality QuickTime:
              http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.mov
2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38552 Activity:nil
7/11    "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the
         trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view,
         the most insidious, of traitors." - George H.W. Bush - April 1999
         \_ Yeah, but he was an Un-american traitor who raised taxes, so fuck
            him.
            \_ Did you ever read the Constitution? Who writes the laws? Who
               controls the money? It was George Mitchell who pushed Bush, sr
               to raise taxes.
               \_ Awww, poor widdle Georgie.  Only the pwesident, getting
                  beaten up by the Bad Bad Democrats.
            \_ You make me laugh with your silly non-sequiturs.
2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38546 Activity:nil
7/11    "If anyone in this administration was involved in [outing CIA covert
        agent Valeria Plame],  they would no longer be in this administration."
                                -Scott McClellan, 9-29-2003
        \_ Surely you have a URL for this so that we can see the entire quote
           in context as well as the (very important) original text that's been
           replaced by the brackets?
           \_ Have you forgotten how to google?  For chrissake...
              http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
              \_ No, I haven't.  I'd like to see the anonymous poster realize
                 his problems with fact.  His [] is editorial, not a quote.
                 \_ No freakin' shit.  Of course it's fucking editorial.
                    Are you suggesting it's misleading?  Did _you_ read the
                    "entire quote in context"? You're a fucking moron.
                 \_ No it is not. The word in the actual quote was "it."
                    How would paraphrase what "it" means in that context?
                    I think they did a good job making it clear what "it"
                    meant. You are just nit picking.
                    \_ "leaking classified information".  It doesn't appear
                       that Rove "outed" her.
2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38524 Activity:nil
7/11    So now that we know Rove is the leaker, any bets on whether Bush will
        actually follow through on his own statements that anyone involved in
        the leak should be fired?
        \_ He said that anyone who did anything illegal would "be dealt with".
           \_ "Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody
              in my administration who leaked classified information.
              If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like
              to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action."
              \_ Its pretty funny to see how http://foxnews.com and http://cnn.com are
                 covering all of this.  Its huge news, and all of the headlines
                 are about Bush's platitudes on the London bombings.
             \_ here are some amusing, admittedly slanted commentary
                on Fox's anchors comments about the bombing:
                http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/05/205.html -danh
              \_ my bad, I wasn't sure if it was "be dealt with" or something
                 else.  But I'm pretty sure the verbiage has changed from
                 "leak classified information" to committing an "illegal" act.
                 You know, like how "WMDs" changed to "WMD related programs"?
                 You know, like how "WMDs" changed to "WMD related program
                 activities"?
                 \_ Make that "knowingly leak classified information."  Rove
                    is using the "I didn't inhale" defense.
           \_ Oh.  So Rove gets s spanking?  The least they could do is make
              it a public spanking.
                \_ Can we get the Bush twins to substitute in for Rove for
                   the public spanking? I don't want to see Rove's pasty
                   white flabby butt, thank you.
2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38523 Activity:kinda low
7/11    Transcript of today's White House regular news briefing
        http://thinkprogress.org/2005/07/11/briefing-711
        (this gets pretty insane, IMO)
        \_ CSPAN video
           http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.wmv
           \_ I have no respect for any commentator who calls McClellan
              "scotty".  It's amazing what a dipshit MM is.
        \_ Nice to see the press grow a pair.
        (this gets pretty insane, IMO)
        \_ C-SPAN video (Real Audio/Video)
           http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050711-3.v.smil
           (better quality, more complete, less troll-worthy, use RealPlayer
           to view)
           (better quality, more complete, less troll-worthy)
        \_ Nice to see the press grow a pair.
           \_ Are you a complete moron?  They've been haranguing McClellan and
              Bush for quite a while.  Their consistent whiney dumbass
              questions have gotten pretty old.
              \_ The Karl Rove info has been boiling for the last two weeks.
                 This is the first time anyone brought it up at a press
                 conf.
              \_ Yeah, McClellan is clearly a weasel.  He doesn't need any
                 diminutives applied to him.
                 \_ Hey now.  No reason to be insulting weasels OR dipshits
                    like that here.
                 \_ Whereas if MM doesn't have a diminuative applied to him hey
                    may balloon up to the size of a house.
                    \_ huh huh...  yeah.  michael moore is fat.   huh huh...
              \_ Yeah, treason and high crimes, such whiney topics from that
                 whiny liberal media.  Why can't they focus on important stuff
                 like if Bush got a blowjob and lied about it.
              \_ The press has given Bush a pass since 9/11. About time they
                 started doing their job. Do you remember how much grief
                 Clinton used to get?
2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38519 Activity:nil
7/10    Rove's attorney linked to money launderers in hilarious fashion:
        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_07_10.php#006045
        \_ Beautiful. I'm sure it's hard to find good, honest representation,
           but, Shirley, you'd think they could try a little harder.
        \_ Check the top post on tpm.  someone in the gaggle rediscovered
           their balls.
           \_ Scott McClellan makes Ari Fleischer seem honest and forthright,
              although I have to feel some sympathy for the "white house
              press secretary."  It must really suck to have to speak publicly
              for these jokers.
              for these jokers. -lewis
              \- why do you feel "sympathy" for them again?
                 \_ Sort of the same "sympathy" I would feel for, say, a
                    Kamikaze pilot.  Gee, sucks for him.
                    \_ But do you feel sympathy with the imperial stooge back
                       in Tokyo who lies to justify sending the kamikaze
                       pilot to his death?  That is Scott McClellan, not the
                       pilot.
                       \_ Our very own Beltway Bob.  Little weasel.
                       \- right, i feel more sympathy for the troops and some
                          of the mid/high level military.
        \_ TalkingPointsMemo has become *the* must read blog out there. Joshua
           has broken more political scandals than the Washington Post over
           have broken more political scandals than the Washington Post over
           the last six months.
2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38518 Activity:moderate
7/11    Dear Osama Bin Laden and crazy Islamic fundamentalists, I know you
        guys are pissed off and want the US to pull out of Iraq and
        Afghanistan. How about a complete cease fire for a year or two so
        that George Bush can declare victory and pull out troops completely?
        Afterwards, you can resume your attacks and blow everyone up
        as usual, and declare your victory. This proposal is a win-win
        situation. What say you? Jesus Saves, and Allah Akbar!
        \_ Bush has declared victory about five times now.
           \_ How many times did senior Bush delare victory? You know, I miss
           \_ How many times did senor Bush delare victory? You know, I miss
              the old Bush. He was so much more methodical and wiser.
              \_ He also had better grammar than you.
                 \_ You mean spelling?
                 \_ What, gramatically, was wrong with the previous post?
                    I'm amused at self proclaimed motd grammarians these days.
                    Like the guy who claimed the BTAF apostrophe comic had an
                    error...  Sigh.
                    \_ Well, it depends on the meaning. It's a little
                       awkward to have e.g. "so much more fat and taller"
                       versus "so much more fat and tall". The former would
                       better be expressed "was taller and so much more fat"
                       because it removes ambiguity over the "so much more".
                       \_ You're an idiot.
                          \_ Why don't you learn English or go back to your
                             fucking motherland Scotland, scotsman.
                             \_ How do you know he's a Scot, laddie? He
                                might be black or hispanic adopted from
                                his Scotish parents. Yo bro, whaddup?
                             \_ I'll explain in detail why you're an idiot.
                                You're a prescriptivist who's long on
                                commentary and short on facts.  "more wiser"
                                wouldn't make sense, so "more" is obviously
                                grouped with "methodical".  "So much wiser
                                and more methodical" would be unwieldy, but
                                would be the only way to duplicate the original
                                stmt.  Your example fails to duplicate the
                                original statement.  And if you want to pay
                                my way to move to Scotland, I'd love to.  But
                                it wouldn't make you any less wrong.
                                \_ The reason you're both idiots is that you're
                                   taking part in this lame assed thread.
                                \_ FYI there are multiple anonymous people you
                                   are arguing with here. I didn't claim
                                   it was strictly wrong, just a little
                                   awkward. Someone else made the original
                                   grammar comment. Still, there are two
                                   possible ways to interpret it:
                                   "so much more methodical"   "so much wiser"
                                   "so much more methodical"  "wiser"
                                   You know-it-all dumbfuck.
                                   \_ Someone claimed it was grammatically
                                      incorrect.  I asked what was incorrect.
                                      You offered a point that was not
                                      incorrect.  Ipso facto...
                                      \_ Well you're an idiot.  I'm the
                                         original critic (not pp) and the
                                         original phrase is ambiguous at best,
                                         retarded at worst.  Did he mean:
                                         "wiser and so much more methodical"?
                                         or
                                         "so much more wiser and methodical"
                                         \_ Keep digging.
                                \_ You'd love to move to Scotland? Why do you
                                   hate America you unpatriotic fuck tard?
                                   Get the fuck out of my country.
                                   \_ Ever been to Scotland?  Edinburgh's an
                                      awesome city with friendly people and
                                      beautiful women.  Given the chance, I'd
                                      love to live there.
                                      \_ I missed a chance to go to Edinburg.
                                         Perhaps unwisely. -- ilyas
                                      \_ If it's not Scottish, it's crap!
                    \_ I don't see anything gramatically wrong, but "delare"
                       should be "declare".  But a typo is no big deal unless
                       the poster is picking on someone else's English, which
                       was not the case here.  -- !PP
2005/7/10-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38506 Activity:nil
7/9     Rove is nailed.  Wonder if any major news media will pick this up
        during the week.
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1440027/posts
        \_ Rove can become the focus of the investigation.  Fitzgerald will
           be asking, "Did you know Plame was CIA at the time?" "Undercover
           CIA?" "Did you know you can't expose people in this class?"
        \_ Rove was already known to be disgusting and people still voted
           for Bush. I guess as a politician it pays to have a scumbag
           for an advisor who can do the dirty stuff and take any and all flak.
        \_ Nailed? "Nothing in the Cooper e-mail suggests that Rove used
           Plame's name or knew she was a covert operative" ... "'A fair
           reading of the e-mail makes clear that the information conveyed
           was not part of an organized effort to disclose Plame's
           identity...'"  I'm not defending him, but he's hardly "nailed."
           He may become so in the future, however.
                \_ gwbush should make him a supreme court justice so
                   he can declare the original law unconstitutional
                \_ csua motd lawyers please correct if needed, but
                   i think just because you didn't mean to break the law
                   is never an excuse.
2005/7/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38491 Activity:nil
7/8     Mann Report on "liberalism" of PBS is a joke:
        http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050718&s=blumenthal
2005/7/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38461 Activity:low
7/7     "We will find them. We will bring them to justice." -- Bush
        \_ "If [Osama bin Laden] thinks he can hide and run from the
           United States and our allies, he will be sorely mistaken."
             -- Bush, 9/15/01
           "I don't know where he is.  You know, I just don't spend
           that much time on him"
             -- Bush, 3/13/02
                \_ Oh this oft-quoted comment taken out of context.
                   You libs ever read the ENTIRE speech? Look it up!
                   You may find the 2nd half a little more interesting.
                   \_ It wasn't a speech. It was a press conference.  He
                      says OBL has been marginalized which is highly debatable.
                      He said that we have a strategy and it's working.  Do
                      you believe that?  And if so, please explain it to us
                      so that we too can support this strategy.
                      \_ I'm sure your years of military/CT service will
                         help you with your Monday morning quarterbacking.
                         The truth is, these numbers are tiny. The enemy
                         is elusive and unable to directly fight.
                         \_ And of course we gathered our friends and allies
                            and took a systematic, worldwide approach to
                            tracking them, their money, and their associates.
                            Oh, wait.  No.  We invaded Iraq instead.
                   \_ The second half says that there are more important
                      things like 1. our soldiers are well supplied, 2.
                      our strategy is clear, and 3. our coalition is
                      strong. Well, Bush failed on all three. So how
                      is that "more interesting"?
           "[Osama bin Laden is] either alive and well, or alive and
           not too well, or not alive."
             -- Rumsfeld, 10/7/02
           \_ He forgot the "zombie - neither living nor dead" option.
              \_ Osama the Undead! Maybe he could be the last boss in
                 the next Resident Evil game.
                 \_ Osama bin Zombie!
                        \_ Send more special forces!
2005/7/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:38454 Activity:high
7/6     So wait, a member of the "liberal" New York Times just took
        a fall for the Bush Administration? How is Rush Limbaugh
        going to spin this one?
              \- when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
        \_ Interesting data point:
           http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/7/1148/62336
           Miller's filthy.  I don't know that she should be in prison
           for "protecting sources", but she definitely needs to be in
           prison.
        \_ it hurts my head to sort out the timeline of how this
           happened, maybe someone could summarize.  judith miller
           spewed a bunch of horseshit about Iraq leading
           up to the war and has no friends.
           \_ Judith Miller is one of the reasons that the WMD "threat" was
              so badly reported and covered. Fuck her and fuck the NYT.
              \_ I think Judith Miller is a putz too, but I think that
                 reporters being able to maintain the confidentiality of
                 their sources is even more important. --liberal
                 \- this is not the relationship of a journalist and a
                    source, it is the relationships of a criminal suspect
                    and an (unwitting?) accomplice. it is a narrow case and
                    the procedurual obligations are adequate to limit the
                    chilling effect. it has nothing to do with miller
                    being a putz but the nature of of what was revealed
                    being against public policy. i think the one thing you
                    can reasonably argue for is the journalist should be
                    entited to his or her own jury trial [so jury nullification
                    is an option beyond judicial checks and balances, should
                    some secrecy obsessed "hypothetical" executive branch
                    pass some law making all whistleblowing/leaking a crime]
                    and not subjec tto detention by a sole judge for contempt.
                    this is not an absolute right but one for a certain
                    public policy end and thus is limited to a scope consistent
                    with those ends.
2005/7/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38427 Activity:high
7/6     Bush nominates Judge Vandelay to replace O'Connor.
        \_ url?
           \_ it's a Seinfeld reference
              \_ duh. thx.
2005/7/3-6 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38403 Activity:kinda low
7/3     Does anyone know if http://freerepublic.com censors posts?
        \_ Yes.
        \_ Yes, plus they turn off your account.
        \_ Yes, for anything that doesn't toe the party line.  And they are
           blazingly fast, it will happen in seconds.  Gestapo efficiency.
           \_ Can we have a moratorium on Nazi references?
              \_ Fuck you, goebbels
              \_ Can we have a moratorium on hypersensitivity?
              \_ Can we have a moratorium on hyperthreading?
2005/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38399 Activity:high
7/2     "MSNBC Analyst Says Cooper Documents Reveal Karl Rove as Source In
        Plame Case"
        http://csua.org/u/cla (mediainfo.com)
        \_ Do they still shoot traitors?
        \_ Do they still hang traitors?
        \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
           \_ Ahh, Newsweek.  Counting the minutes until this turns into
              another LGF-wank-fest.
        \_ There probably won't be any fallout from this.  The bar for
           impeachable offense was lowered for Clinton and raised for Bush.
           \_ fallout != impeachment.  Bush probably can't be impeached
              for this, for reasons why, see Regan.  That doesn't mean
              there won't be fallout.
                \_ What I meant is that it is silly to think that Bush &
                   Cheney didn't know about this/plan this.  There probably
                   won't be any fallout and it will be like Reagan if there
                   is.
                   \_ If they indict Rove over the leak, he could serve
                      a prison sentence. A non-Rove WH would be some
                      serious fallout.
                      \_ Two words: Presidential pardon.  Rove isn't going
                         anywhere, even if something does come out of this which
                         I kinda doubt.
                         \_ Oh come ON.  Vush wouldn't use a presidential
                         \_ Oh come ON.  Bush wouldn't use a presidential
                            pardon on Rove in this case.  Haven't you
                            noticed?  Even since Nixon, When Republicans
                            do something stupid, and it's proven, they get
                            thrown to the dogs.
                            \_ And then come back 15 years later to run random
                               agencies and embasseys...
                               agencies and embassies...
                            \_ Reagan pardoned half a dozen of the Iran-Contra
                               crowd, as well as quote a few major donors
                               who had been convicted of violating campaign
                               finance laws.
        \_ Rove's lawyer is saying he didn't mention her name ... the notes
           aren't clear what exactly Rove said.
           \_ You could still get stuff like "His wife is an undercover CIA
              agent."  where anyone could then look up the marriage or mortgage
              records.
        \_ Rove is not the target of the Special Investigation
           http://csua.org/u/cln (Washington Post)
        \_ Newswekk rundown of the story:
           http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
        \_ Comment here by jblack.
            \_ Go fuck yourself.
           \_ Found another easy target?  Got bored with emarkp and williamc?
              How predictable.  -John
           \_ Go fuck yourself.  And you can go fuck yourself as well, mr.
              selective censor guy. Censorship is always wrong, even when
              the individual you're censoring does not believe in freedom.
              \_ Ah, but you see, now jblack's comments are DIE FRUCHT
                 VERBOTTEN!  It's free advertising for a point of view!
                 Delete me next, motd censor-man!  Not enough people pay
                 attention to me. -- ilyas
        \_ go fuck yourself jblack.
        \_ Oh yes Lawrence O'Donnell of freak out 'liar' fame who has
           also stated he doesn't care if soldiers are demoralized
           by Kerry's Iraq negativity.
           by Kerry's Iraq negativity. -jblack
        http://www.streamload.com/donnyd413/OReilly_clips/Scarborough_Country-.wmv
           \_ Go fuck yourself.
           \- if it turns out ROVE is culpable of some significant wrong
              [and i am deliberately not framing this in legal terms] i
              think it will be interesting to see who will defend this.
              you can agree on the facts yet have different opinions
              about some of the BILLARY scandals, but something like the
              MARC RICH pardon was just indefensible and somebody who
              tries to justify that should lose all credibility. it's
              possible a FUD strategy will work here ... as we saw with
              the SWIFTBOAT campaign, betting on STUPIDITY is close to a
              sure thing.
              \_ I have yet to see anyone disprove John Oneill's
                 accusations.  Kerry hasn't even signed 180 and its
                 been what 250+ days? -jblack
                 \_ where the fuck have you been? he signed this a month ago.
                    \_ It was never posted on The Free Republic, so jblack
                       never heard about it...
                 \- kerry was within shooting distance of the enemy.
                    bush avoided going to fight in a war he supported.
                    that's the relelvant issue. not how many stitches
                    did kerry get in vietnam. we're not comparing
                    mccain vs dole in terms of who made greater
                    sacrifices. if you want to compare whether clinton
                    of bush is a bigger coward, that is also reasonable.
                    \_ I don't really know what Kerry's war record is, and
                       I don't care.  However, saying that Kerry
                \_ Bush never signed his Form 180. And Kerry has signed
                   his, better late than never.
                   http://mediamatters.org/items/200409100001
                   http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010795.php
            \_ Really sad to see you defending traitors like that. I thought
               you loved your country more than your party. Guess I pegged
               you wrong on that.
2005/7/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38388 Activity:moderate
7/1     http://csua.org/u/cki
        "Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman on the Supreme Court, announced
        her retirement Friday."
        \_ Ok, someone had this scoop on the motd days ago.  How did that
           happen?
           \- Judicious Branch Prediction (SDO apparently let it slip before
              ALGOR v BUSH was decided). ok tnx.
              \_ Does the psb understand that jokes are supposed to be funny?
        \_ Will Bush appoint Torquemada to replace her?
                \- I spoke to my contacts in the Invisible Empire
                   of Legal Homosexuals.
                \- I spoke to my contacts in the invisible empire
                   of legal homosexuals.
           \_ My money is on Ashcroft.
                 \- i would like to bet you that it
                    will NOT be Ashcroft. can you
                    get in touch with me. tnx. --psb
                        \- BTW, i dont think the first BUSHCO appointee
                           will be alberto "torture memo" gonzalez. i
                           assume for the first one he is also not going
                           to do something odd like nominate R GUILLALNANAI.
                    \_ I'm hoping that Bush picks Posner.
              \- i would like to bet you that it will not be Ashcroft.
                 can you get in touch with me. tnx. --psb
                       \- POSNER would have been a great choice for CHIEF
                          but i think he's pissed off a lot of people.
                          i think the only way he would get in is if MCCAIN
                          had somehow captured the BALLS of BUSHCO and for
                          some reason decided to push POSNER. rmember POSNER
                          said things like the 9-11 commission proposals
                          on centralizing intelligence was dumb and i doubt
                          on centralizing intelligence were dumb and i doubt
                          he believes in wacky social conservative ideas.
                          \_ It's Partha the Pinhead!
                             \- ZIPPY would have capitalized words like
                                "wacky" above.
                             \_ M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead
        \_ Wow, she's retiring before Renquist?  My theory was they will
           retire together, which makes getting replacements in easier for
           whatever administration is in power (more room for compromise with
           2 seats). -- ilyas
           \_ A blogger surmised that Rehnquist wants to wait till Sept. to
              retire so that the current set of justices will set the record
              for continuous service time.  O'Conner will stay on past Sept.
              since she's waiting for a successor to be appointed.
              \_ Constitutionally can she do this?  Can an appointment begin
                 while the justice is still on the court?  I doubt it.
                 \_ You're an idiot.
2005/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38378 Activity:moderate
6/30     Is there any better way for http://cnn.com to downplay the deaths of 16
         U.S. SOCOM and Navy Seals than to title it:
         "Bodies recovered from Afghan crash" (cnn.com)
         Also compare to International Edition link for http://cnn.com.
         Besides having a different lead, http://edition.cnn.com even has this:
         "Bush nets career-low TV audience | 9/11 link slammed".
         \_ Um, the chinook went down like three days ago.  There was lots of
            reporting then.  They finally got in to see the crash site and
            recover the bodies.
            \_ Yeah, but reporting then was "fates unknown".
               Think of it like this:  When three or more U.S. soldiers died
               in a single incident, what kind of coverage did you see then?
               Compare to the http://cnn.com title.
               \_ Look, I'm all about criticizing poor media coverage, but in
                  this case, I think you're kneejerking.
                  \_ I really don't think so.  16 U.S. soldiers dead in a
                     single incident.  This is normally big news, and it was
                     small-medium news a few days ago on Day 1 of reporting.
                     You can also compare it to the network TV news web sites.
         \_ Haha, is CNN the new Foxnews?  -- ilyas
            \_ The general wisdom is since 9/11 they've been getting pounded by
               Fox News and they want to do something about that.
               Anyway, there is a difference between http://cnn.com and CNN (cable TV),
               with the former being more easily measurable.
               IMO, http://foxnews.com has been more "balanced" than http://cnn.com.  Har.
               \_ General wisdom sure is smart. -- ilyas
                  \_ I don't know about that, but in this specific case,
                     general wisdom likely matches core truths.
                     \_ [deleted], let me explain how this works.
                        'General wisdom' is explaining an 'observation'
                        (which may or may not
                        be valid), with a theory which is neither verifiable nor
                        falsifiable, for all practical purposes.  This theory
                        can't 'match' anything. -- ilyas
                          \_ Your definition of general wisdom is strict, and
                             by being strict suits your argument well.  Sorry,
                             but that's all I'm going to discuss on this
                             particular topic.  To objectively measure this,
                           you could ask intelligent people of neutral political
                           leanings, "What do you think of the sentence, 'The
                           general wisdom is since 9/11 [CNN has been] getting
                           pounded by Fox News and they want to do something
                           about that'" (without any tone inflection or
                           suggestion that anything in particular is wrong).
                           I'd also ask that you refrain from using my name
                           if I don't post it.  It's not very nice from my
                           perspective, especially when I have tried to be
                           civil in this discussion.  Thanks.
                           \_ Right, it's the fact that my definition is too
                              strict, not the fact that this is just a conspiracy
                              theory which nobody can possibly confirm. -- ilyas
                              \_ What is this conspiracy theory I adhere to
                                 exactly?
                  \_ You should meet his brother, Lieutenant Knowledge!
2005/6/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38369 Activity:nil
6/29    The Daily Show and The Last Throes
        http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/06/27.html#a3668
        \_ This is excellent.  Thanks.
           The guy playing the conservative commentator wasn't funny at all
           though.
2005/6/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38354 Activity:low
6/30    I missed Bush's speech last night. Did he say anything convincing?
        (not a troll) --erikred
        \_ http://www.cspan.org  There's not reason to "miss" a tv speech
           anymore.  They all get archived at the above url.
           \_ Touche', Moriarty.
        \_ It was very good, very moving. We should all support our troops,
           and there's no higher calling than joining our noble fighting
           force that preserve our peace and freedom. God Bless Bush.
2005/6/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:38349 Activity:moderate
6/29    Bush criticism deleted. It's unlikely you'll convince Bush supporters
        and anti-war people in any direction any how.
        \_ Not true. You can't convince Bush supporter to go for peace in the
           face of threats, but I'm pretty sure a pacifists will be pissing in
           the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at him.
           the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at
           him.
           \_ If you don't support Bush, you're a hippie weirdo peacenik
              raghead-loving vegan nutjob, whose only good trait is a
              reasonable command of the English language.  -John
                 \_ GWB may not have the the powerful command of the English
                    language, but he sure has the most powerful military
                    command in the world.
                    \_ I was indirectly referring to the hope that pp is a
                       poor troll attempt, because if he/she/it isn't, a
                       swift and merciless beating is in order.  -John
                       \_ A bona fide redneck would not have misused the
                          phrase "pissing in the wind".
        \_ Not true. Bush's support falls every month.
2005/6/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38348 Activity:very high
6/28    Analysis of Dubya's speech from the Washington Post:
        "The address continued a shift in the administration's emphasis as it
        has justified the Iraq war, beginning with the threat posed by
        Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction, continuing to the need
        to promote democracy in the Middle East, and now suggesting a more
        seamless link between Iraq and the attacks on American soil."
        \_ "An outright lie mired in a mighty river of bullshit."
        \_ Why? If all those reasons are bullshit, as you seem to imply, then
           why *did* Bush want the war?  So he could get the amazing
           45% popularity he presently enjoys?  So we could bring the price of
           oil down to a comfortable 60$/barrel?  I think Occam's Razor says
           Bush means what he says, and simply fucked up.  Repeatedly.
           \_ He said to his biographer in '99 that he wanted to be a wartime
              president so he could get the things he wanted to done.  I think
              he means what he says.  I don't think he quite grasps the
              repercussions of what he says.  I think the war was to project
              our power over the region, and to yield as much profit, political
              and monetarily, as possible. "We're liberating Iraq's money.
              Bring your duffel bag!  Oh, and don't worry about armoring that
              HMV...  It's just a soldier."
           \_ Occam's Razor says that the reasons espoused by the Project for
              a New American Century (with signatories Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.)
              which declared the importance of invading Iraq back in 1997,
              are the reasons we invaded Iraq.  Primarily their reason is
              "because we can."  -tom
           \_ You make naive assumptions about Bush administration motivations.
              \- i agree he fucked up. but when the fuckups constitute not
                 catching OBL, AbuG, making the american reputation take
                 a large hit, wasted money, people killed ... including
                 white american people ... well, it seems there should be
                 more than a "whoops". what more could BUSHCO have fuckedup
                 before they should have paid some consequences? yes, i dont
                 necessarily expect BUSHCO to have said "i will not accept
                 the nomination of my party because i am a fuckup" but i
                 would have hoped he american voter would have tossed him
                 out on his ass. instead we compare a person who was
                 actually within bullet range doring vietnam with a guy
                 passwd out under a a table in an alabama bar.
                 passed out under a a table in an alabama bar.
           \_ That 45% or whatever is basically not of consequence. He still
              won his election. And then one could consider that he and his
              cronies have benefited from the situation at large.
              Re: voter stupidity there's a good lecture I saw on ilyas's
              "libertarian purity test" guy's web site:
              http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/pubcho2.html

              "Thus the typical citizen drops down to a lower level of mental
              performance as soon as he enters the political field. He argues
              and analyzes in a way which he would readily recognize as
              infantile within the sphere of his real interests. He becomes a
              primitive again."

              "1. For many beliefs, ignorance or idiocy are very (privately)
                  costly. E.g., if you believe that you can do your job
                  perfectly well while intoxicated.
               2. For many other beliefs, however, ignorance or idiocy are
                  (privately) costless. E.g., what practical difference does it
                  make if you don't believe in evolution?"
           \_ Bush invades Iraq so he can stay in office and it
              makes it seem like he's doing his job leading the
              country while he and his cronies get to
              continue exploiting us for power/money/influence.
                \_ They're busy packing the ranks of non elected
                   and difficult to remove elected officials with slaves
                   to their philosophy so when gwbush resigns in disgrace,
                   it won't matter.
                   \_ A slave to a philosophy.  What a lovely expression.
                      What does it mean, exactly? -- ilyas
2005/6/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:38326 Activity:nil
6/28    On Tuesday evening, President Bush will try to convince you that
        we're making big progress in Iraq, energy, social security, tax,
        health care, and others. What are some things you expect
        him to say? I'll start:
        \_ "Terrorists hate freedom, that is why we must stay in Iraq"
        \_ More interesting to an actual discussion would be what you think
           he'll say, why he'll say it and why you think he is right or wrong
           with each statement.
           \_ More interesting than that would be a drinking game - a shot
              of Patron every time he says the word "freedom" or refers to
              9/11.
2005/6/27 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38308 Activity:nil
6/27    "If you look up 'last throes,' it can mean a violent last throe,"
        Rumsfeld said on ABC's "This Week." Violence may escalate, he said,
        because insurgents "have so much to lose between now and December."

        "Insurgencies tend to go on five, six, eight, 10, 12 years," Rumsfeld
        said on "Fox News Sunday."
2005/6/24-27 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38294 Activity:nil
6/24    Bush's War, Myths and Reality, on Fox News:
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160556,00.html
        \_ Why isn't this posted on The Free Republic yet?
2017/12/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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