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2006/11/25-12/8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45368 Activity:nil
11/25   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4230372.stm
        The Republican Party. Survival of the Fittest.
2006/11/14-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45338 Activity:nil
11/14   Colbert on Newsweek cover (Bush Sr taking over for Dubya)
        http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Colbert-Bush41-Newsweek.wmv (.mov)
2006/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45309 Activity:high
11/9    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/09/election.main/index.html
        Pelosi said she'll push for implementing all 9/11 Commission
        recommendations on national security, raising the minimum wage to
        $7.25, eliminating corporate subsidies for oil companies, allowing
        the government to negotiate Medicare drug prices, imposing new
        restrictions on lobbyists, cutting interest rates on college loans
        and supporting embryonic stem-cell research. EVIL LIBERAL
        AGENDAS!                                                -Republican
        \_ I think she also said cutting budgets and not raising taxes, like
           she's a Republican.
           \_ Raising the minimum wage is not a tax increaese?
              \_ Its raising the cost of business... which is not a tax.
              \_ budget increase, you mean
           \_ Letting the current tax cut expire is a tax increase.
        \_ http://www.rightwasright.com
           \_ I'm down with 6 and 18.  And before you think I'm joking about
              6, think about how that would work out (note, I didn't say we'd
              _support_ Hussein, just _reinstate_ him)
              \_ You realize that would mean immediate full-scale civil war,
                 right?
                 \_ I doubt he cares.
        \_ Remember, no matter what the gov't says, the minimum wage is always
           zero.
           \_ Huh?
              \_ If you lay someone off, they're earning 0 -!pp
                 \_ So raising minimum wage leads to layoffs... uh huh...
                    do some research young grasshopper.
                    \_ I didn't say i agreed with "Remember..." guy, I was just
                       explaining what "zero" meant.
                 \_ Uh, if you lay them off, they're not working for you, so
                    you're not giving them a wage of zero. You either don't
                    give them a wage, or give them wage > minimum. Unless it's
                    one of those special cases or you're being illegal.
                    \_ no, then we all give them a wage in state funds and
                       services in exchange for nothing while they look for
                       another job.
                       \_ ok but then the wage ain't zero?
                          \_ It's not zero.  Wage is the amount of money they
                             get in return when they work.  In this case they
                             are not working, so the wage quantity doesn't
                             exist.
        \_ What about the abortion squads to gather new stem cells and control
           overpopulation? This is a golden opportunity.
        \_ Raising the minimum wage is a pretty blunt instrument, and I
           think it rarely has the result it's implementers intend.
           \_ Raising the minimum is inflationary.  The real reason for doing
              so has nothing to do with working poor.  It has to do with the
              fact that most union worker rates are based on a multiple of the
              minimum wage so by increasing the minimum by some percent she
              just gave an automatic wage increase to most union workers by
              that amount.  It's just a pay off to the unions in exchange for
              supporting the party that the rest of us all pay for.  <s> I'm
              glad to see we're still doing business as usual.  I was somewhat
              concerned something might change.  </sarcasm>.
           \_ what are other alternatives you are proposing?  Here is something
              I don't understand.  If people so dispise minimum wage, why
              there is no talk about "ABOLISHING* it?  Why don't we at the
              same time abolish the minimum *AGE* too?  Let the free market
              decide what is the minimum wage and minimum AGE.
              \- because "people" dont despise the minimum wage.
                 in fact it's not even close. it's quite popular in
                 nationalwide polling. google for the obvious like
                 "poll, support minimum wage" etc. we can reasonably
                 argue about various parts of the regulatory state but
                 only nutjobs want to go back to laissez faire red in
                 tooth and claw [disallow regulation of hours, health and
                 safety etc, see lochner etc.].
2006/11/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45308 Activity:nil
11/9    http://preview.tinyurl.com/w3hvt (signonsandiego.com)
          "The vote shows the Iraqi and American people are of one mind about
        withdrawing U.S. troops," said Falah Hassan Shanshal, who leads the
        parliamentary bloc of radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada
        al-Sadr.
          "We hope the Democrats don't forget their campaign promises. If they
        don't, we will deal with them in a brotherly way once the last
        American soldier pulls out from Iraq," he said.
        \_ This is one of the guys who should have been killed and his group
           wiped out years ago.  The fact that he's still around to comment
           on the American election highlights the failures in Iraq that put
           his potential "brothers" in power in the first place.
           \_ well, We whiped out Saddam and his Baathist party, that didn't
              work out too well, no?  May be you should think outside of
              "get rid of those we don't like" box.
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45305 Activity:nil
11/9    Bush says he wants to work with Dems on Great Issues. Bullshit.
        Based on his performance in the last 6 years, his rhetorics
        have not matched with his actions. What do you guys think?
        \_ That depends. He and the Dems are in bed together in throwing the
           southern border open. They disagree on entitlements only in
           magnitude, etc.
        \_ There are trolls. And then there are dumb trolls. Where
           do you think you fall?
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45295 Activity:nil
11/9    Can I view Bush's humble press conference from Wed.
        anywhere online?  tnx
2006/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45288 Activity:low
11/9    So can we finally stop talking about Karl Rove the "genius?"
        \_ For two more years, yes.
        \_ He is a genius, the architect of the democratic takeover
           of the Congress.
           \_ after all that crying and commotions dems barely took over,
              thanks to gwb. what would the dems do when they no longer
              have a commander in chief to criticize? that's right, they'll
              lose again. one time victory in decades , how pathetic
              \_ Zese grapes, zey are so...how you say, sour?
2006/11/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45277 Activity:nil
11/8    when dubya says he "takes responsibility" for loss of the House,
        does that mean he'll resign and let Cheney take over, or that he'll
        appoint some moderate SCOTUS judges?
        \_ No he means it like all people in power mean it.  And do you
           really want Cheney?
2006/11/8 [Recreation/Pets, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:45273 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2006/11/8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45258 Activity:low
11/7    Wow, check out the Democratic party imploding!  My goodness!
        \_ Agreed. The only reason Ds won is because of GWB.  This will
           be a one time victory in many years to come because there will
           not be another GWB after 2008.
           \_ 2008 belongs to the Dems.  The Dems have control of the state
              governorships now, so expect some creative gerrymandering and
              control of battleground state campaigning.
              \- i am kinda curious if any loose canon democrats are
                 going to go "beyond the pale" to "get even".
        \_ Pelosi should just slit her wrists...
        \_ I bet you can find some choice quotes in the motd archive.
        \_ http://csua.com/2006/10/18/#44863
2006/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45251 Activity:low
11/8    Rumor is Cheney may/will leave for Saudi Arabia if the Democrats
        win the Senate, just in case they try to get him.
        \_ Neither Cheney nor Bush has anything to worry about,
           impeachment wise, 'cause the senate is not democratic
           enough.  Unless some really stinky shit comes out.
           \_ "Stinky shit?"  Oh, you mean like Abu Ghraib?  You mean like
              holding people prisoner for years without charging them?  You
              mean like wiretapping one's own citizens?  You mean like
              invading a country under false pretenses?  You mean like
              revealing the identity of a CIA agent as a form of political
              retaliation against her husband?  That sort of thing?
              \_ None of that shit is stinky in the noses of the Senate
                 Republicans.  There will be no impeachment unless Bush/Cheney
                 is shown to have had gay sex for money, irrefutable
                 evidence of bribe-taking, etc.
              \_ None of that shit is stinky in the noses of Senate
                 Republicans.  It'll take irrefutable evidence of Bush/
                 Dick taking bribes, having gay sex for money, or something
                 like that.  Civil rights violations, or anything done
                 to "terrorists", aren't going to bring them down.
                 \_ Bill Clinton was impeached for much, much less.  He got
                    impeached for getting blowjobs where he never even
                    climaxed.  Bush (or Karl Rove) betrayed the entire CIA
                    by revealing Valerie Plame's identity.  Civil rights
                    violations to brown people might not bring the Bush
                    Administration honkeys down, but the CIA fiasco may.
                    \_ You know, I really hope you're right.  I think
                       Bush and Cheney both deserve impeachment for this
                       and for war crimes and everything you mentioned.
                       However, I do not see it happening.
                       \_ second that.  I would swear my alegience to a
                          president who lied about a blowjob over a president
                          who lied about war anyday.  Then again, I think
                          majority of population don't have that sense of
                          proportion.
        \_ I heard that jackass actually went hunting on Election Day.  This
           was apparently the first that DICK had gone hunting since he shot
           his boy in the face.
        \_ You have been trolled.
2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45246 Activity:nil 54%like:45239 76%like:45243 50%like:45247
11/7    Dems take house, senate in play.
        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
        \_ I was all set to be cautious about this, but Fox News says the same
           thing. Oh, what is that feeling? It's the ice breaking off my heart.
           What a long, bad trip this has been. --erikred
           \_ Update: Freepers concede the House. Oh, it's so, so sweet.
           \_ Down goes Bush!  Down goes Bush!  Down goes Bush!  HAHAHAHA!
2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45244 Activity:nil
11/7    wtf?  freeper thread says Dems will take Senate
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1734539/posts
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    

2006/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45227 Activity:nil
11/7    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/07/election.main/index.html
        "Don't underestimate our ability to blow it." -sr democratic aide
        Wow, I didn't know the Dems were like Cal football!  Go Bears!</troll>
                                                             \_ Learn to
                                                                spell. It
                                                                is GO BEAH!
                                                                not Go Bears!
2006/11/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45222 Activity:moderate
11/7    Democrat: "Fuck the War in Iraq! Impeach Bush!" -> Forget to vote
        Republican: "My vote is none of your business." -> Votes Republican
        My prediction: Forget the polls. Republicans will hold on to power.
        \_ Republican: "You know, we've got a lot of problems, but you've
           still got to vote for us. Because my opponent is a slug, and
           they're going to tax you into the poorhouse. And on the way to
           the poorhouse, you'll meet a terrorist on every street corner.
           And when you try to run away from that terrorist, you'll trip
           over an illegal immigrant.
           \_ Hahaha that's a funny way of putting it.
           \_ You're confusing the party message with OP's idea of voter
              thinking & action.  The Dem message is the equally stupid,
              "We hate GWB!" and that's about it.
              \_ 6 in '06, first 100 hours, etc.  Dems have published their
                 plans.  That you've only heard "We hate GWB!" is telling.
              \_ Not giving an incompetent and abusive executive
                 administration a congressional blank check is not
                 considered "stupid", IMHO.
        \_ but GOP won't retain majority in the House, right?
           \_ Election Swami has read the polls and says all shall be
              revealed within 24 hours!
        \_ http://images.chron.com/apps/comics/images/2006/11/7/Heart.806.g.gif
2006/11/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45186 Activity:nil 75%like:45181
11/7    The motd.public, http://cnn.com, http://nytimes.com, the AP wire, and all local
        news services will be frozen for 48 hours beginning at 3pm on
        Election Day as a "Cooling Off" period.
        \_ Yeah, right.  Better to let people vent. Troll anyway, most likely.
           \_ If the motd is locked how can we stay informed about the
              "hundreds" of incidents of voter intimidation and
              disenfranchisement committed by the Bush BrownShirts?
        \_ Post this on motd.official if it's real.
        \_ all hail our fearless politburo^Wleaders
2006/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45181 Activity:high 77%like:45177 75%like:45186
11/7    The motd.public will be frozen for 48 hours beginning at 3pm on
        Election Day as a "Cooling Off" period.
        \_ Post this on motd.official if it's real.
        \_ I suppose this is a troll.  --PM
        \_ Yeah, right.  Better to let people vent. Troll anyway, most likely.
           \_ If the motd is locked how can we stay informed about the
              "hundreds" of incidents of voter intimidation and
              disenfranchisement committed by the Bush BrownShirts?
        \_ Post this on motd.official if it's real.
2006/11/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45171 Activity:high
11/4    Prediction for the next few days: Saddam found guilty
        on Monday, patriots rejoice, and Republicans remain in control.
        \_  Watching the Dems go against Rove for control of the electorate
            is like watching people fight Royce Gracie in the first couple
            UFC's.  People would get their ass kicked in the octogon, and
            they didn't even know what was happening because BJJ was based
            on a fundamentally different approach to the one they were
            taking.  Likewise, there is no one in America today who even
            understands the rules of the game well enough to compete
            with Rove in any serious way.  Even if the dems get a razor thin
            majority in the House, that'll just let Rove keep his base in a
            hate-filled frenzy for the next two years to pave the way for an
            easy GOP victory in 08.  One party rule will be here until someone
            kills Rove, learns how to fight back, or fixes our broken
            democracy.
            \_ The answer is voter education and a greater understanding of
               civics across the board.  Good luck getting civics put back
               in the curriculum.  It was pulled out for a reason.
        \_  Monkey Chief to Make Statement on Saddam Sentence at 2:20 P.M
            EST. Democrats are FUCKED.
            \_ Way to go.  Calling someone a monkey is an excellent way to
               make your point and raise the level of discourse.
               \_ If the banana skin fits....
                  \_ Way to reinforce my point.  Thanks.
                     \_ Seriously, does anyone really believe Bush is an
                        effective leader or President? Or do they just think
                        he's useful?
        \_ It's already predicted that way:
           http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15547023
           Liburals are incompetent.
           \_ that's weird, washingtonpost in today's update says 5 seats
              are leaning dem, with 4 toss-up
        \_ Swami?
        \_ err... right now, any news short of another terrorist attack
           on US soil *OR* massive casualties on US troops would ulter
           the election landscape.
        \_ hopefully not.  i'd prefer to see the republicans kicked out and
           conservatives elected in 2008.
        \_ hopefully not. i'd prefer to see the republicans kicked out
           and conservatives elected in 2008.
           \_ do you mean "fiscal" conservatives?
              \_ He must want the ones who legislate what you can do in your
                 own bedroom. -!op
                 \_ Why "must" I be a social conservative?  You're not only
                    merely wrong, you're completely 100% wrong.  Your knee-jerk
                    response is too 'smart' and dailykos quality boring.
        \_ The Patriots will not be rejoicing. They just got beaten by
           the Colts tonight.
2006/11/4-6 [Finance/Investment, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45157 Activity:low
11/03   http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227282,00.html
        Unemployment Rate Hits 5 1/2 Year Low at 4.4 Percent as
        Economy Adds 92,000 Jobs
        \_ See? Trickle-down economy works. Tax cut works.
        \_ The current unemployment numbers are totally cooked. According
           to the Economist, if unemployment today was measured the way
           that it was in the 70s, current unemployment would be 7%.
           I prefer to use overall employment, since it is harder to
           manipulate, and that is down over the last two years about
           two percent.
           \_ How were they calculated in the 70s vs today and when did
              it change?  7% is still pretty good.
              \_ No, we want to socialize everything like the Europeans,
                 Canadians because that way our unemployment goes up!
           \_ How were they calculated in the 70s vs today and when
              did it change?  7% is still pretty good.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45156 Activity:nil
11/3    How much of this is conspiracy theory and how much has a basis in
        reality?
        http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=17432
        \_ Wasn't Bush criticized heavily after Katrina for NOT deploying
           the Natl. Gaurd to keep order?
           \_ Could he have deployed?  National Guards are under states'
              control, not federal, during peace time.
        \_ Looks about 90/10 to me.
        \_ Depends.  Have you read the law?  -John
           \_ Yes. There are some interesting and perhaps scary things in here,
              but they could also be viewed as overblown rhetoric. They could
              also be "just in case" clauses added to prevent cockups like the
              Katrina disaster. What I thought was particularly interesting was
              the section towards the top that gives the President (and his
              SecDef) the ability to administer the Oath of Office for military
              officers. A paranoid mind could certainly draw references to
              Hitler's consolidation of control of the military.
              \_ Isn't the US President already the top supreme commander of
                 the US Armed Forces?  How is the new law different?
                 \_ the President used to need the governor's consent to
                    federalize a state's guard forces
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45155 Activity:low
11/3    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612
        Leading neo-cons assume no blame for ideas, but blame Dubya admin for
        terrible execution
        (I can't decide whose pic is worse:  Dubya's or Condi's)
        \_ Annie Leibovitz clearly knows what she's doing.  -tom
        \_ Dubya's picture was taken with a wide-angle lens at close range.
           Either it was a lousy photog, or the photog did it on purpose.
           \_ It's Annie Leibovitz.  It's on purpose.  -tom
        \_ What Condi's pic?
           \_ page 3
        \_ We know execution was terrible.  There is little to dispute on
           that point.  It is just a case of do you believe American power
           should be used to "right wrongs" around the world or not?  Places
           like Darfur and *many* others can't be rectified by diplomacy so
           the choice is invade/attack or ignore genocide.  Some philosophies
           say "screw em, not our problem, not worth our blood and treasure",
           the neocons disagree.  If you're ok with the Saddams of the world
           and more Darfur genocide then you're not a neocon.  /shrug
           \_ Iraq is not Darfur.  As bad as Saddam was he wasn't slaughtering
              millions.
              \_ Millions aren't dead in Darfur either.  Yet.  'Just' a few
                 hundred thousand or so.  Saddam was estimated to be killing
                 about 5000 Iraqi's a *month* which was going on for how many
                 years?  There is little difference if you're only looking at
                 body count as your measure to take action or not.
                 \_ First, the number is probably being pumped up, just like
                    everything else.  Secondly, under *OUR* rule, we got
                    about 100 guys killed EVERY DAY.  that is almost 3000
                    Iraqis a MONTH.  According to *YOU* even with the
                    violance today, Iraqis *ARE* better off today than under
                    Saddam.  But for some weird reason, every poll conducted
                    by every country has said otherwise.
            \_ The Neocons arguement has never primarily been humanitarian.
               They argue that our countries best interests are promoted
               by spreading democracy and "Western Values." The humanitarian
               argument is sort of tangential to this. And of course, the
               number of bodies is an important consideration in deciding
               if it is worth taking action.
               \_ I am not sure what this "Western Value" means.  I think
                  it really means "western value defined by US government."
                  Frankly, I don't think Neo cons believe in Western Value
                  themselves.  This administration is by far most secretive
                  and imperial administaration since Nixon.  In terms of
                  human right violations, they are rapidly approaching
                  Eisenhoers and FDR's administarations.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45130 Activity:high
11/3    Keith Olbermann on Bush and political manipulation:
        http://csua.org/u/hd9 (rawstory.com, YouTube video)
        \_ Just don't call them Brown Shirts...
           \_ Unless you are a Conservative, then it is okay:
              http://www.mrc.org/press/2006/press20061102.asp
              \_ The mind utterly reels. OTOH, what a superb illustration of
                 the point: no nonsense is off-limits to the ultra-right.
                 [Edit: To be fair and balanced, yes, I understand that the
                  rhetoric of the ultra-left is silly and nonsensical as well.]
                 \_ They slip in a brownshirt comment at the end, but overall
                    they do have a point about Olbermann and the press in
                    general.  Certainly Olbermann is a lunatic and has gone
                    way overboard.  His little tirade about Bush being at
                    fault King Henry style for Stephanie Miller getting
                    death threats from some old crank or Olbermann getting
                    fake anthrax in the mail are simply insane.  Why does
                    a lunatic like Olbermann get air time?  It can't be
                    ratings because his suck.
                    \_ When you call the other > 50% of the population who
                       don't agree with you "lunatics", you're not making
                       a great case for the 30% of the population who
                       support your viewpoint.
                       \_ I'd *love* to see the URL that says 50% of the
                          population thinks Bush ordered a hit on Stephanie
                          Miller or to have Olbermann sent fake anthrax.
                          You are woefully confusing "will vote Democrat or
                          doesn't like Bush" with "think Bush sends Men In
                          Black out to threaten and kill people".
                          \_ You're either being purposefully obtuse, or you
                             did not listen to what Olbermann said.
                             \_ I did listen and I read it, too.  Read what I
                                replied to because you don't seem to be
                                responding to what I said at all.
                                \_ Olberman said "you sir, of course, did
                                   not order any of these things" but somehow
                                   you heard the exact opposite. I kind of
                                   wonder if it is he or you that is the insane
                                   one.
                                   \_ *laugh* nice way to pull half a line
                                      completely out of context.  Come back
                                      when you've read the whole thing and
                                      are willing to quote it for real and
                                      stop playing rhetorical baby games.
                                      \_ Just becasue someone disagrees with
                                         you does not make them insane. This
                                         might be something you should learn
                                         so that others will take your ideas
                                         more seriously. Many, many Americans
                                         think that Bush is at least partially
                                         responsible for coarsening the tone
                                         of the debate in this country. You
                                         obviously do not. But calling those
                                         who disagree with you "insane" does
                                         not help your case. At all.
                    \_ For those of us who don't think Fox is Fair or Balanced,
                       Olbermann does not sound like a lunatic. His outrage
                       (at this, at the mishandling of Katrina) is shared by
                       many of us non-lunatics.
                       \_ So you think Bush is somehow responsible for SM
                          getting a death threat from some old coot or
                          Olbermann himself getting fake anthrax or any of
                          the other things he ranted in that article's quote?
                          Katrina is an entirely different issue.  If you'd
                          like to discuss that, it deserves a new thread.
                          \_ I think the President is responsible for fostering
                             an us-or-them partisan atmosphere where criticism
                             of the President is characterized as treason. The
                             President could rectify this by calling on his
                             supporters to behave like civilized human beings
                             instead of implicitly condoning this behavior by
                             remaining silent.  That said, I doubt Bush has any
                             inclination to curtail these actions taken on his
                             behalf by unscrupulous loyalists.
                             \_ It went like this: Bush squeaks it out in
                                2000.  Partisans start with the name calling
                                and various other stupidity.  Bush makes
                                attempt to "work with the other party" by
                                letting Kennedy write the education bill.
                                Bush gets bashed by conservatives for being an
                                idiot trying to deal with Kennedy.  Other
                                party continues endless bashing.  Bush fumbles
                                around for a few years pretending it doesn't
                                exist which annoys his base.  Bashing from
                                other party continues.  Bush makes some weak
                                half hearted effort at hitting back.  Bush is
                                Satan.  As far as the details of this thread
                                go, I seriously doubt Bush even knows who
                                Stephanie Miller is and certainly wasn't aware
                                and didn't encourage anyone to send Olbermann
                                any fake anthrax.  Nor do I believe Nancy
                                Pelosi is responsible for the various idiots
                                running around for years calling Bush, etc,
                                war criminals, among a long list of other
                                things, nor is Nancy responsible for the
                                soldiers who have been attacked and harassed.
                                \_ Not condemning the acts of lunatics is sort
                                   of an implicit approval.  Why didn't Bush
                                   condemn the people who we're calling on
                                   others to threaten federal judges who were
                                   doing thier jobs?  The democrats have never
                                   been shy about denouncing the lunatics from
                                   the left.  Nor have they been shy about
                                   apologising for thier mistakes.  Where was
                                   the apology over "Mission Accomplished"
                                   banner as our troops still die?  I'll
                                   agree that both sides can get pretty crazy
                                   at times but the democrats don't support and
                                   encourage thier crazies. (at least nearly as
                                   much as the republicans)
                                   \_ So Bush is supposed to get on TV and
                                      condemn the act of every idiot in this
                                      country?  Until yesterday I not only
                                      had not heard that Stephanie Miller got
                                      death threats I didn't even know who
                                      Stephanie Miller was.  I'm sure the
                                      President's morning briefing includes a
                                      section on nut-heads he has to apologise
                                      for.  That makes no more sense than
                                      asking the Dems to apologise for Hinkley
                                      shooting Reagan.  You've stretched it way
                                      beyond reason.
                                      \_ Well, at least you are admitting your
                                         ignorance. This is a start. Hint:
                                         ever charge Olberman made about
                                         every charge Olberman made about
                                         political attacks against those who
                                         spoke out against Bush happened. I
                                         can provide you with evidence if you
                                         wish, but we should probably start
                                         another thread, becasue it is going
                                         to be a long one...
                                \_ Um.. Whatever.
                                   \_ Links were posted.  Check the archives.
                                      Sorry if reality doesn't fit your
                                      world view.
                                Not any more than Bush, Rove, etc, is
                                responsible for the old coot with Stephanie or
                                Olbermann's fake anthrax.  That sort of hate
                                filled lunacy has reached ridiculous
                                proportions on both sides.  The worst part is
                                reading the anecdotal stories of people who
                                don't speak to their relatives anymore because
                                they vote for the other party, which ever that
                                may be.  The hatred, all of it, is just
                                irrational.  Thus I call Olbermann and anyone
                                who thinks like him a lunatic.  It's just pure
                                blind hatred.  The inability to see the flaws
                                in his left wing heroes while determining
                                without zero evidence that all ill in the
                                world is the fault of the political opposition
                                is simple insanity.  --wordcount
                                is simple insanity.
                                \_ I love it. Condeming political violence
                                   is just "pure blind hatred" in your world.
                                   \_ Bzzt!  Read comprehension--.  Olbermann
                                      isn't insane for being pissed off that
                                      he got fake anthrax.  He is insane for
                                      blaming the President for it.  Thanks.
                                \_ When the President takes his former
                                   opponent's comments out of context and
                                   distorts their meaning, how is that not
                                   the very hate you're railing against? It's
                                   base manipulation, and it shouldn't be
                                   stood for on behalf of either party.
                                   \_ I don't know what out of context quotes
                                      you're refering to in this case but both
                                      parties do it and I agree that it isn't
                                      acceptable.  Either way, to blame Bush
                                      for Stephanie Miller's run in with the
                                      crazy old guy is crazier than the old
                                      guy.  To blame Bush for his fake anthrax
                                      delivery is equally insane.  Olbermann
                                      is a mad man.
                                      \_ Um, Olberman did absolutely zero of
                                         these things.
                                         \_ Did you read his quote in the
                                            mrc link?  Are they lying?  He
                                            said them.
                                            \_ They are lying by omission/
                                               stupidity.
                                               The full speech is online.
                                               Find it, read it.  Get back
                                               to me.  He did not "blame Bush"
                                               for any of these things.
                                               \_ I found it, I read it, the
                                                  answer is the same.  He
                                                  blamed bush.  It is right
                                                  there in the mrc link.  Show
                                                  me another one that shows
                                                  the mrc link has pulled him
                                                  out of context.
                                      \_ Yeah, I remember when Clinton was
                                         President and the liberals threatened
                                         violence against his critics and
                                         mailed out fake anthrax letters
                                         and called for the hanging of and
                                         treason charges against anyone who
                                         disagreed with him. Oh wait. None
                                         of that happened, did it.
                                         \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
                                         \_ Now you're just paraphrasing
                                            Olbermann's unfounded allgations.
                                            It didn't happen under Clinton and
                                            it isn't happening now under Bush.
                                            I'm so investing in tin foil.
              \_ Stupidity is never ok.
2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45126 Activity:nil
11/2    Congress terminates Inspector General of Iraq Reconstruction
        http://www.csua.org/u/hd6 (nytimes.com)
2006/11/2 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45123 Activity:nil
11/02   Just keep repeating it: free speech and the freedom to dissent
        are Republican Values. Only Democrats try to silence
        opposition:
        http://www.csua.org/u/hd5
2006/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45120 Activity:nil
11/02   Bus driver fired over obscene gesture made during a Bush visit:
        [ sorry I don't remember the original color language ]
        http://www.csua.org/u/hd5
2006/11/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45098 Activity:nil
11/2    Top US general says Rumsfeld is inspired by God  http://csua.org/u/hcw
        Holy fuck.  (literally)
        \_ we need a new JCS chair, not really for the God comment, but for
           the praise of Rummy
        \_ '"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for
            our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of
            the Joint Chiefs of Staff.'
            I always figured Rummy hears voices in his head.
2006/11/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45074 Activity:moderate
11/01   Remember they aren't Brown Shirts, they are just Conservatives
        trying to express their feelings:
        http://www.csua.org/u/hcd
        \_ How do you know they're "Conservatives"?
           \_ They're probably conservatives in the same way Nazis
              were liberals.
           \_ This is just one of "hundreds" of warcrimes the Bush
              Brown Shirts have committed nationwide. Its all part
              of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. The Truth is Out
              of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. The Tru7h is Out
              There. -fmulder
              \_ I think the Bush Brown Shirts egged my house last night.
                 \_ All part of our Grand Visionary Conspiracy to force you
                    to buy cleaning products from our VRWC cleaning products
                    companies to fund our illegal war in Seattle.
           \_ Just a hunch. Liberals don't tend to lynch blacks or beat
              up gays either.
              \_ Hint: non-Liberals don't tend to lynch blacks or beat up
                 gays either.
                 \_ Really? So all those Blacks got lynched by nobody? Did
                    they lynch themselves, is that what you are trying to say?
                    And all the gay bashings never really actually happened?
                    \_ No one said any such thing.  Read and try again.
                    Curious.
2006/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45061 Activity:kinda low
10/31   Looks like the October Surprise was Kerry being an incredible
        dumbass.
        \_ Heh.  link:csua.org/u/hcc
        \_ He certainly didn't sound good, did he.
        \_ I wish he had STFU until Nov 8th.
        \_ Uh, for botching a joke about the president, and then having
           it taken out of context?
           \_ Excuse me but "bullshit!".  He meant it exactly the way it was
              said.  He's an idiot.
              \_ Have you read the transcript?  It followed another Bush joke.
                 The audience got the joke, even as mangled. You're either
                 lying or stupid.
                 \_ I read it.  The motd is the only place on the planet that
                    agrees with you.  Maybe you're right and the entire world
                    is wrong.  He certainly needs to STFU and stop trying to
                    play tough guy in some lame attempt to make up for the
                    way he allowed himself to be run over in 2004.  "Oh, I'm
                    a tough guy now, vote for me in 2008, no apologies for
                    being a moron, rah rah rah!"
                    \_ The whitehouse, rushlimbaugh, and freerepublic are the
                       only others who believe as you do.  And the whitehouse
                       is already backing off their stridency on this, likely
                       because of Kerry's press conference. I now must put you
                       in the "stupid" column.
                       \_ Which is why officials and elected leaders in his
                          own party have asked him to *not* show at Dem
                          rallies this week and said he should apologise.
                          If being aware of current events is your stupid
                          column then please put me firmly on that side.
                          \_ Tester, Casey and Ford do indeed have a bit
                             of the stupid in them.
              \_ Yes, he meant that you can either work hard and study or you
                 can end up getting your country's military stuck in a bloody
                 quagmire.
              \_ I think that Kerry is just as good at flubbing public speeches
                 as Bush is, and this is a typical example.  I think Kerry was
                 making a jab at Bush just as he said, but he should have done
                 what a normal person would with an apology, rather than
                 preemtively attacking Rush Limbaugh.  /That/ showed his lack
                 of character more than the original comment. -emarkp
                 \_ I vote based on a person's character.  -Average American
                 \_ From http://RushLimbaugh.com, from yesterday's show:
                    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_103106/content/and_along_comes_lurch_2.guest.html
                    With the cute little comment "Watch the video, and see if
                    Kerry or anyone else laughs as if it's a joke at Bush's
                    expense." along with a video clip with the laughter (that
                    is indeed there on the live feed) is cut.  Preemptive, my
                    foot.  Fuck you, and fuck Rush.
                    \_ I don't give a rip about Rush Limbaugh.  Kerry slammed
                       him before his show even aired. -emarkp
        \_ And to think this arrogant moron was almost elected....
           \_ Yeah, good thing the other arrogant moron was elected.
              \_ Actually, yes, it is.  There are worse things than GWB.  Such
                 as John Kerry.  He flubbed the joke before he made the joke.
                 Or did he make the joke before he flubbed the joke.  Or maybe
                 the joke was just nuanced and he's the only one smart enough
                 to understand it.  Or he flubbed the nuancing of the apology
                 before making the joke about the soldier's apology to him.
                 Or something like that.
                 \_ Or maybe he was making a joke about the President partying
                    too much in college instead of learning that you don't get
                    to invade countries just because you're the President. I
                    know, it's not really funny because the results of Bush's
                    Folly have been so painful, but do try to see the irony.
                    Frankly, I'm having a really hard time trying to imagine
                    anyone doing worse than Bush. [Edit: Of course that's
                    immediately not true. Lyndon Larouche, Ross Perot, Dan
                    Quayle, Dick Cheney, Gary Bauer, Alan Keyes... hell, the
                    list is long and varied. It's also populated by the lower
                    5% of the pool.]
                    \_ How weird that you only mention right wingers as people
                       who could be worse.  I'm sure you're not allowing your
                       personal bias to color your thinking.  Carry on,
                       Comrade!  The fact is both parties are corrupt and this
                       whole "your party is teh suxx0r but my party is teh
                       r0xx0rz!@1" thing is truly moronic.  If you can't see
                       the flaws in one party while being able to see the same
                       flaws in the other, you are truly hopeless.  Vote third
                       party.
                       \_ Oh, sorry: Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong Il, Joe
                          Lieberman, James McGreevey. Find me corrupt Dem
                          chickenhawks, and I'll add them to the list.
                          \_ So you think Dan Quayle belongs on the same list
                             as Stalin?  Whatever.  Vote third party.
                             \_ No, I think DQ would have made a worse Pres.
                                than Bush. I think Stalin would make a worse
                                Pres. than Bush. I think 95% of the pool would
                                make a better Pres. than Bush. Did you flunk
                                reading comprehension?
                             \_ What third party?  Libertarian?  Green?
                                Communist?  A more reasonable response is that
                                people need to get away from parties, and we
                                need to find ways to get higher quality
                                individuals into politics.  The solution of
                                the problem of political parties is not
                                more political parties.
        \_ HALP US JON CARRY!
         http://www.620wtmj.com/images/uploaded/Help%20Photo20061101105508.JPG
        \_ So I am really trying to figure this one out: why does a toungue
           tied has-been washed up second rate politician rate so much
           attention? Is this just an effort by the GOP to change the subject
           off of Iraq? Do they think this is going to work for them, or is
           \_ Not to state the obvious, BUT YES, OF COURSE.
           this one of those "Hail Mary" situations, like in the WSU vs. Cal
           game last week?
2006/10/30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45039 Activity:nil
10/30   http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/zawahiri_was_ta.html
        Surprise!  In attack initially attributed to Pakistani attack helos
        on religious school which reportedly kill 80, U.S. Predator UAV(s)
        actually conducted attack.  Zawahiri, 2nd in command to Osama,
        primary target.
2006/10/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, ERROR, uid:45036, category id '18005#4.3125' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45036 Activity:nil
10/30   Does anyone have a list of the contested seats in the house?  I'd like
        to track the polls in those districts.
        \_ http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/U.S._House_election,_2006
           It shouldn't be too hard to extract a list from here.
2006/10/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45034 Activity:high 93%like:45040
10/30   http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/zawahiri_was_ta.html
        (perhaps not a) Surprise!
        - Pakistani major general says Pakistani attack helos fired 4-5
        missiles into terrorist training school, killing ~80, and that no women
        or children were at the school during the attack.
        - U.S. major says assault was "completely done by the Pakistani
        military".  Attack comes on day that peace deal between region's tribal
        leaders and Pakistan govt was to be signed.
        - ABC News reports U.S. Predator UAV(s) actually conducted attack, and
        that Zawahiri, 2nd in command to Osama, was primary target.
        - Opposition political leader says 30 children were killed, school was
        not terrorist training center, and U.S. planes were used.
        (I kind of don't believe the children part, because kids' bodies are
        easily shown to the camera, and these haven't appeared.  Young adults,
        okay; a few kids, certainly possible)
        \_ Which part is the "Surprise!"?
           \_ yeah, the ABC News report is suspect.  The standard Hellfire 1-2
              missiles that Predators carry isn't enough to kill 50-80 people
              normally. -op
              \_ I wondered about this too.  A couple of Predator drones
                 "completely destroyed a compound" and "killed 50-80
                 people?"  Yeah right.
                 \_ it also doesn't make sense that 4-5 rockets/missiles from
                    from attack helos did it either.  Weird. -op
                    \_ Attack helos carry more than 1 rocket each.  It depends
                       on if they meant that 4-5 rockets were fired or some
                       unknown number of helos each fired 4-5 rockets.  But,
                       no, I agree with you that 4-5 rockets total would be
                       unlikely to directly kill 80 people.  Perhaps the
                       building was multi-story and collapsed and burned and
                       that killed ~80 people?
                       \_ the Pakistani major general was pretty clear:
                          4-5 rockets/missiles total.  Maybe it was an
                          anti-personnel Hellfire variant (just add Al powder),
                          first tested in Iraq in '03. -op
                          http://csua.org/u/hbq (globalsecurity.org)
2006/10/30-11/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45033 Activity:nil
10/30   Murdoch NY Post endorses Hillary:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061030/ap_on_el_se/ny_post_clinton
        \_ It must be that NY tax surplus
           http://news.google.com/news?q=new+york+tax+surplus
2006/10/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45020 Activity:nil
10/28   I feel sorry for the owner of the domain name: http://bushco.com
        \_ STAY THE COURSE.
           \- http://www.economist.com/printedition/cover_index.cfm
2006/10/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45017 Activity:nil
10/27   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZE20lzZZF0
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jq0j80UB_c
        Dem-sponsored shorts chronicling Dubya's "stay the course" exhortations
        \_ Please clarify: are you simply posting links to Dem-sponsored vids
           on Youtube because you wanted people to see them, or are you trying
           to make a point in the context of the Michelle Malkin thread? If the
           latter, please post your point. Thank you. -motd polemicist
2006/10/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45012 Activity:nil
10/27   http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/27/news/economy/gdp/index.htm
        There you go, Q3 GDP estimated at 1.6%.  Looks like the markets had
        not factored this in.
        \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1727125/posts
2006/10/26-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45003 Activity:nil
10/26   http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/26/laura.bush/index.html
        I trust the First Lady and when she says her husband didn't lie,
        I believe her. My faith in the Republican party is back  -conservative
        \_  "With her favorability rating at 68 percent in the latest CNN
            poll..."  Good gods! 68%?!  Is there any republican at the national
            level who even comes close to that now?  You guys are just happy
            to have *one* national level figure who is at least doing no
            real harm.
            \_ Fortunately we run the country by elections, not polls.  Your
               last line about doing harm is bizarre.  Polls are not a measure
               of harm but whatever.
2006/10/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:44989 Activity:low
10/26   This congress is pretty much a "do nothing congress."  My question of
        the day is, how did that happene?   The Republicans control both
        houses and the presidency!
        \_ because, fundamentally, conservatives like things the way they are.
           \_ That's so cute that it ought to be true.
        \_ in part because the republicans in congress are conservative while
           the bush administration is republican yet not conservative.  so
           bush couldn't get most of his big spender policy through yet the
           conservatives in congress couldn't get past the more centrist
           senate.  grid lock isn't a bad thing in government.  i'm all for
           a life time of do nothing congresses.
           \_ I'm sorry, but with budget deficits in the $500B range we
              cannot afford "do nothing" Congresses that keep this level
              of deficit spending.  Further, social security needs to be
              fixed.
           \_ "Couldn't get most of his big spender policy through"
              Are you HIGH? Bush has even eclipsed President Johnson in
              spending.
2006/10/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44984 Activity:nil
10/26   I find this short term gain for long term loss an interesting choice.
        http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-dems26oct26,0,3860101.story?coll=la-home-headlines
        So the DNC is putting quite a number of conservatives who are running
        as Democrats.  If they win sufficient seats to take congress, the
        party will have short term control over various committees at the
        long term expense of having very conservative incumbents in the party
        who are not going to vote for a liberal agenda.  So what's the point
        of having control if you really don't?
        \_ In either case the Jews remain in control        -jblack #1 fan
        \_ One related theory I read recently was that short term gains
           would be offset by long-term losses by turning blue voters
           complacent come next election time.  My main question is, what
           happens if a bomb goes off before the midterms?  -John
           \_ I don't buy into the whole morale thing about voters and
              complacency and all that.  We're losing so that will motivate
              us to win.  We're winning so that will motivate us to win.
              We're neck and neck so that will motivate us to win.  Shrug.
2006/10/25-27 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44964 Activity:nil
10/25   So I'm reading about the recent law passed that takes
        away Habeas Corpus from non citizens.
        Was there a huge plague of non citizens clogging up our courts
        with their petitions?
        \_ url?
           \_ Really?  You didn't know George W Bush just signed into
              a bill denying the right of any non citizen we arrest
              from filing an appeal of their detainment, one of those
              'basic rights under the United States Constitution' things?
              Fuck.
              \_ The USSC made the exact opposite ruling regarding Germans
                 and Japanese held off shore during WWII so this isn't that
                 shocking an event.
                 \_ Are you refering to Korematsu or some other case?
              \_ No I didn't know that. And I was asking for a URL
                 for the text of the bill, not a news story.
                 \_ Ask Google, no time to help you today.
              \_ I didn't realize the US Constitution applied to random
                 people in other countries.
2006/10/24-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44941 Activity:nil
10/24   Finally!  The Truth Is Out There!  http://www.uncoveror.com/index.html
2006/10/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44934 Activity:low
10/23   Barron's predicts GOP will retain control of Congress:
        GOP will lose eight House seats, three Senates seats
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723630/posts
        \_ Barron's is a rag.
        \_ They're probably right.  They based their analysis solely on how
           much money each candidate has in each district.  The candidate
           with the most money has won 93 percent of all House races since
           1972.  Barron's method predicted the 2002 and 2004 House results
           fairly closely.
           \_ Barron's is right, except when they're wrong.  Analysts and
              polls think this election's going to be exceptional.  Bush
              and the Republicans have really, really fucked up to the
              point where only Bill Gates could save them.
              \_ Analysts and polls are right, except when they're wrong.  All
                 this prognostication is a wasted effort for those who want to
                 know the future.  The polling is all about trying to cause a
                 certain outcome, not predict one.  If the polls were so good
                 we wouldn't be discussing who might win, we'd be discussing
                 who won.  We have elections to determine winners.
           \_ 93% is not impressive for 435 house seats, where candidates
              with more money are nearly all the time the more popular ones.
              anyways, it's moot, because we'll find out soon enough the
              result for the ~ 40-50 competitive House races.  < 50% for
              competitive races would be a dismal failure of predictive
              ability, I think.
2006/10/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44896 Activity:nil
10/20   Johnson's successful campaign ad for the 1964 presidential election
        link:www-tc.pbs.org/30secondcandidate/movies/spots/20_johnson_64.mov
        New GOP commercial
        http://www.gop.com (under "Top Story")
        \- the '64 tv comercial is super famous ... enough to have its own
           wikipedia entry.
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_(television_commercial
           hmm, i never noticed the WHAUDEN line.
        \_ Response.
           http://democrats.org/a/2006/10/rnc_ad_shows_de.php
           You know the trouble with this GOP administration is that
           the things I hate about them have little to nothing to do with
           traditional left vs. right political issues. That's why I don't
           even think that matters anymore at the federal level.
2006/10/20-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44888 Activity:nil
10/20   Economic Hypochondriacs?  (George Will)
        http://csua.org/u/h9o
2006/10/19-23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44873 Activity:nil
10/19   Sometimes humor comes in small, elegant, zen-like packages ... Seen
        on cnn's ticker recently: "Rice in Asia"
        \_ Not long ago the names of the three most powerful men in the
           country were Bush, Dick and Colen.
2006/10/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44851 Activity:kinda low
10/17   There are times I wish Democrats can just take a stance and stand
        firm, like John Murtha:
        http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/PRwashpostoped.html
        \_ Who coined the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism"? 'Cos that's
           what goes through my head whenever I hear GOP name-calling.
           Also, a thought-provoking piece. Thank you.
           \_ Spiro Agnew.  Whose name anagrams to "grow a penis."  -tom
              \_ Is the anagram important for some reason?  Is this anything
                 like spinning a record backwards to hear Satan speak?
                 \_ To win the game you must kill john romero
              \_ I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was FDR.  -John
        \_ hasn't Hillary held a pretty firm stance over the last 2 years?
           \_ She has always had a firmly nuanced stand on all issues, which
              may or may not depend on her current audience, the polls and
              public mood, or other possible factors or non-factors as
              politically appropriate.  Until such time as the stance may or
              may not need to change according to the blowing winds.  Yes,
              she has been absolutely firm in her stance for at least a week.
              Unless she hasn't.
              \_ Yes, we should all be like fucking George W Bush,
                 despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, "We
                 did the right thing, Sir!".
                 \_ One thing being bad doesn't make the other thing good.
                    The current admin is over January 2009.  I'd prefer the
                    next admin be one that has a world view that goes beyond
                    the current news/polling cycle *and* does it right.  What
                    is so wrong with that?  Clinton is not that person.
                    \_ observating from outside of USA, I have to inform you
                       that current administration's world view is pretty
                       fucked up and what happen today is merely a reflection
                       of that.  There is a reason why US stance in the world
                       is at the all-time-low and majority of people, even
                       Europeans, think that USA is a greater threat to the
                       security of the world than Islamic Extremelism.
                       \_ Here's the thing: I really don't care what the rest
                          of the world thinks beyond how it directly has a
                          negative impact on this country.  The rest of the
                          world doesn't have to like us.  They can hate us
                          as much as they want so long as they keep doing
                          business with us the rest of their feelings don't
                          amount to much in my book.  So you might ask (and if
                          not I'm telling you anyway) what does matter to me?
                          Dead Americans matter.  The problem with Iraq is not
                          the initial invasion, it is the poor post-invasion
                          planning, the namby pamby Vietnam style execution of
                          the war on the ground, and general lack of balls.
                          Wars are not about winning hearts and minds.  They
                          are about killing the enemy until they break.  No
                          war has ever been won by winning over the general
                          populace of the target nation.  None.  Ever.  If they
                          didn't have the balls to go in, kill everyone who
                          needed killing, set up a puppet government and get
                          the hell out they never should have gone in in the
                          first place.  Back to the EU opinion thing for a
                          moment: the EU is demographically doomed.  Their
                          opinion regarding the ever growing Islamic extremist
                          threat all around them vs. their ridiculous "we hate
                          daddy/USA because we want to be super powers again,
                          too!" is useless.  If they don't get their act
                          together their culture will be subsumed and cease to
                          exist as such by the end of this century.  This is a
                          unique time in the world's history.  Never before
                          have so many people had such freedom and power on an
                          individual level.  It is the rest of the world
                          beyond the West that is normal for human history and
                          if our culture is not vigorously defended this time
                          will be remembered as nothing more than that few
                          extra years it took to crush the non-believers.  You
                          are at war whether you like it or not.  Your enemies
                          are not short term politicians you don't like.  I
                          find the "USA is the greatest threat to world peace!"
                          slogan childish and historically poorly informed.
                          I'm glad I'm young enough that I think I'll get to
                          see exciting sweeping changes across the world but
                          old enough that I should be dead before it gets
                          really bad.
                          \_ I hereby dub thee "wordcount".
                             \- if you are say a poor person in say malawi and
                                madonna isnt about to adopt you, frankly your
                                life, both in terms of possible upside or
                                downside is going to be more affected by
                                the united states than it is by nkorea, cuba,
                                bolivia, libya etc. when the US pushes its own
                                agenda in something like the doha trade round,
                                or spews out pollution at a per capita rate
                                far above everybody else, it has real con-
                                sequences for people, just as US research into
                                medicine and agriculture in the past had real
                                benefits. yes, this is not "i am going to
                                steal your land and rape your women" type of
                                "old style" adverse consequences but
                                nonetheless self-serving free trades regimes,
                                self-serving ip regimes etc have real
                                consequnces. for some people it has to do with
                                who what share of the profits but for the
                                very poor, they can be pushed into what
                                jeffrey sachs calls "the poverty that kills".
                                jeffrey saches calls "the poverty that kills".
                                we think of scorpions and black widows as
                                nasty, dangerous animals, more so than
                                elephants, but i bet elephants are responsible
                                for more destruction and death.
                \_ Hillary has said that her excuse that she is the one
                   lone freshman senator who's every single legislative move
                   is micro analyzed by lasers because of her status
                   \_ status?  what status?  if it wasn't for her 'status'
                      she wouldn't had been elected.  being special cuts both
                      ways.
           \_ Like her firm and deeply researched demands that Rockstar Games
              be held liable for a third-party patch?  If this is an omen of
              the "Gvt Will Be Your Mommy" she wants to replace Bush's "Gvt
              Will Be Your Daddy", I'm not looking forward to it.
              \_ fine, her internet law congressional staffer must be
                 a fucking moron.  she probably was involved because
                 rock star games is in NY.  i doubt any Senator out there
                 has publicly said they are pro GTA.
2006/10/17-18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44843 Activity:high
10/16   [silenced!]  --purged by brownshirt neocon  </self-amusement>
        And this is just what goes on in San Francisco! All over the rest
        of the country there are hundreds of similar incidents just like this
        one happening every day.
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/17/EDG6PKDVMM1.DTL
        \_ Debra J Saunders has successfully trolled you all, I salute
           her.
           \_ DJS isn't smart enough to troll her own dog.
             \_ I guess being a political columnist is all about being
                a successful troll.  I disilke her columns but she
                does appear to refrain from leaving out convenient
                facts that piss off tom so much when writing about
                draconian sentencing for 1st time drug convictions.
              \_ Why do liberals knee-jerk with the "I disagree with him so he
                 must be stupid" act?
        \_ yeah, you're right, it is bad that an intolerant asshole can
           say what he wants on the radio in SF and still keep his job.
           spew idiocy on the radio in SF with no repercussions.
           \_ Michael Savage is not in this article.
        \_ Yeah, you are right, critisizing someone is exactly the same as
           bashing them in the face and breaking their nose.
           \_ Yeah, your are right. Bashing someone in the nose is exactly the
              same as systematically rounding up Jews for extermination.
              \_ Your knowledge of history is lacking. The Brown Shirts had
                 nothing to do with exterminating Jews because they were
                 dissolved after the "Night Of The Long Knives." Kristallnacht
                 is a more appropriate analogy.
                 \_ Did you miss the thread from a couple of days ago?
           http://www.csua.org/u/h84
           "The FBI reported that the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes rose
           from twenty-eight in 2000 to 481 in 2001, a seventeen-fold increase"
           \_ Truly shocking.  Here's some more numbers from the FBI showing
              who the real victims of hate crimes are:
                http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/section1.htm
              I'll quote the section on Muslims for you, "Of the 1,480
              reported offenses within single-bias incidents that were
              motivated by the offenders religious bias, 67.8 percent were
              anti-Jewish, 13.0 percent were anti-Islamic, 3.9 percent were
              anti-Catholic, 2.9 percent were anti-Protestant, and 0.5 percent
              were anti-Atheism or Agnosticism. Bias against other
              (unspecified) religions accounted for 9.5 percent of the hate
              crime offenses motivated by religious bias, and bias against
              groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple
              religions, group) accounted for 2.5 percent."
              \_ I suspect jews are much more likely to report hate
                 crimes for a variety of reasons.  -A Jew
              \_ Very good, now show me the statistics for 2001 and 2002.
                 \_ If you care go find and post them and quote the same
                    section and explain why 2001 or 2002 is any different than
                    2004 while you're at it.
                    \_ They have been mysteriously deleted from the FBI web
                       site. If you don't understand why bias crimes against
                       Muslims might have peaked right after 9/11, then I
                       probably can't explain it to you.
                       \_ Duh, of course they spiked.  And then they dropped
                          again.  But you fail to notice (or care) that the
                          vast and overwhelming number of hate crimes are
                          against Jews and that number hasn't changed much.
                          If you failed to miss that point even after I
                          quoted it to you then there is no reason to try to
                          explain it to you.  It isn't worth the effort.  And
                          yeah, the FBI #s mysteriously disappeared.  It is
                          clearly an anti-Muslim conspiracy of the bushco run
                          FBI.  Whatever.
                          \_ Hate crimes are bad. You are the only one trying
                             to minimize them or somehow rationalize the
                             behavior of people committing them. And yes,
                             *everything* that Bush does is for political
                             gain. He is much like Clinton in that fashion.
                             The vast majority of hate crimes are against
                             Blacks, not Jews, btw. But yes, you are right
                             that in overall total number, there are more hate
                             crimes against Jews than Muslims. I suspect this
                             is not true on a per capita basis though I have
                             to admit to not seeing anyone do that calculation.
        \_ Just another example of how diversity of every kind is celebrated by
           the left.  Except of course diversity of thought.
           \_ Excuse me? Who's the one calling the other side a terrorist
              or "America hater" for questioning the president?
              \_ Um, neither side AFAICT.
                 \_ Why do you hate acronyms?
        \_ Thomas Sowell's comments about this:  http://csua.org/u/h85
           \_ do you really want to be on the same side of the argument as
              Thomas Sowell and Debra Saunders?  -tom
              \_ Actually, /I/ do. -emarkp
              \_ Some don't automatically dismiss a source based on who the
                 writer is.  If they make sense or have some facts then so
                 be it.  YMMV.
                 \_ What facts are there in either of those columns?  Both
                    *completely leave out* the comments which got people
                    angry, because they're not convenient to the points the
                    shill wants to make.  Those writers do that *all the time*.
                     -tom
                    \_ Both articles are explicitly opinion articles.  The
                       facts have been reported, these are stated opinions
                       about the facts. So? -emarkp
                       \_ So, don't you think the fact that Pete Wilson called
                          the kid a "travesty" is, you know, kind of important
                          to the discussion?  Don't you think it's kind of
                          disingenuous to portray the situation as liberals
                          trying to squash someone *just* for holding a
                          different opinion?  There's a difference between
                          holding a different opinion, and calling someone
                          else's kid a travesty; the supervisors are angry
                          about the latter, not the former, but these
                          moronic tools dishonestly frame the situation
                          as being about the former.  -tom
                          \_ No, I don't think anyone should lose their job or
                             have it threatened for calling someone else's
                             public relationship or the kid in their (to be
                             kind) odd relationship a travesty.  They're both
                             public figures and so is Pete Wilson.  His
                             expression of his opinion does not in any way
                             rise to the level of job loss.
                             \_ I might agree with you.  But if you write
                                an opinion column and leave out the fact
                                that he called the kid a travesty, I might
                                think you're full of shit.  -tom
                                \_ Wouldn't matter to me if he called the kid
                                   the Ultimate Evil Spawn Of Satan And Cause
                                   Of All Badness In The Universe(c) and they
                                   didn't mention that in their op/ed.  It
                                   still doesn't rise to the level of job loss.
                                   Public figures do not have the same level of
                                   privacy protection from what I'll call
                                   "unwanted speech" that private citizens do.
                                   Being called names is part of public life.
                                   \_ The kid is not a public figure.  -tom
                                      \_ Oh n0es!  I'm sure he's been defamed
                                         and is highly upset and Pete Wilson
                                         should lose his job due to the long
                                         emotional trauma Mr. Wilson caused
                                         as well as the future financial
                                         losses due to his defamation!  We need
                                         to try and execute Pete right away
                                         because this goes any further!  Think
                                         of the children!
                                      \_ What about the Bush twins?  They were
                                         just kids and there were all sorts of
                                         horrible things said about them.  They
                                         were not public figures, either.
                                         should all those reporters and various
                                         commentators be fired?
                                         \_ I am not advocating for
                                            Pete Wilson to be fired;
                                            I'm just identifying the
                                            real point which the
                                            right-wing shills are not.
                                            Should Pete Wilson be
                                            fired for thinking that
                                            two gays who aren't in a
                                            romantic relationship
                                            shouldn't have a kid?  I
                                            don't think so, and I
                                            don't think any liberals
                                            think so, either.  The
                                            whole idea is a straw man
                                            created by dittoheads.
                                            The real question is
                                            whether someone should be
                                            fired for hateful speech,
                                            and whether Wilson's
                                            comments constituted
                                            hateful speech.
                                            Personally, I'd say yes to
                                            the first and no to the
                                            second.
                                            By the way, could you point
                                            out an example of a respected
                                            news anchor saying something
                                            that borders on hate speech
                                            about the Bush twins?  Another
                                            straw man.  -tom
                                            \_ Why does it have to be a
                                               'respected anchor'?  There are
                                               numerous reports, cartoons, etc
                                               published in print, online, etc
                                               calling them all sorts of
                                               things.  You can't honestly say
                                               they weren't getting picked on.
                                               And unlike an infant, they were
                                               old enough to get hurt.  Let's
                                               just execute everyone we don't
                                               like or says anything mean.
                                               \_ Please provide some examples
                                                  of people in positions like
                                                  Pete Wilson's making
                                                  comments about how the
                                                  Bush twins are "a travesty"
                                                  (or similar language).
                                                  This is not the MOTD or
                                                  dailykos we're talking about
                                                  here; this is someone whose
                                                  job it is to report news.
                                                    -tom
2006/10/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44834 Activity:nil
10/16   http://csua.org/u/h7w (nydailynews.com)
        So why is Daddy's sec state helping Bush Jr. with Iraq?
        "Forty-three has now repudiated everything 41 stands for, and still he
        won't say a word," a key member of the elder Bush alumni said.
        "Personally, I think he's dying inside."
        \_ He won't say a word because traditionally former Presidents do not
           comment on current Presidents.  Having the former administation(s)
           running around second guessing the current is no way to run a
           country.
           \_ Having the current administration running around is no way
              to run a country.
              \_ Possibly but it is still ridiculous that one of the former
                 administrations is still running around playing politics and
                 trying to rewrite history to create someone's legacy.
           \_ Go, Bubba!
2006/10/16-18 [Science/Space, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44827 Activity:kinda low
10/16   AMAZING COINCIDENCES 101:
        Saddam verdict to be read on November 5th
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15285264
        \_ You're right.  What are the odds he'd get his verdict 101 years
           to the day after the board game Monopoly was released?
        \_ on the 27th anniversary of the day Ayatollah Khomeini declared the
           US to be the "Great Satan"  Ironic, indeed.
        \_ And omgwtfbbq!!!  It is also the birthday of ~365.25/th of the
           world's population!  That's so amazing!!!!!!!!!!!  Wow!!!  November
           5th!  Of all days!  Golly... that really makes me think.
           \_ World population isn't actually evenly divided.
              \_ Ya know, I'm not sure if I should have just ignored you or if
                 I should be as anal as you and point out I used the ~ which
                 means "approximately" or make fun of you for being so anal.
                 I've decided.  OMGWTFBBQ! UR S0 SM@3T!111
                 \_ Yeah, that's much like saying "then add ~1.00004738 grams.."
        \_ You all get that this is happening 2 days before the Nov. election,
           right?
           \_ Hadn't noticed.  Just like the violence is escalating just before
              the election, the Lancet comes out with another death report, the
              Mark Foley sleaze (even Gerry Studds has died!)...
           \_ OMG!  I smell conspiracy!  Back in 1997 when PNAC was secretly
              pushing to invade Iraq through open letters, yes, even then,
              Karl Rove, Agent of Evil(tm), knew that nine years later he would
              need an October Surprise for the 2006 mid-terms!  Brilliantly,
              and equally evilly, he arranged for the invasion and several
              near misses with 1000 lb bombs (just to make it look good),
              followed by a well timed capture and trial with the verdict to be
              read only two days before the election!  MISSION ACCOMPLISEHD!
              \_ Don't forget--if that doesn't go well, Rove still has OBL in
                 the basement to announce that we've captured him just before
                 the election...</tinfoil>
                 \_ no way, everyone knows obl has always been on the bushco
                    payroll since back in the days when his daddy ran the cia.
                    obl is just an actor who thought he was doing a commercial,
                    even he is a victim of the evil rove.  this stuff all goes
                    so far back not even bush is allowed by rove to know what
                    is really going on.  i read it has something to do with the
                    lost treasures of the templars being hidden under david's
                    temple.
                    \_ Have you noticed how much Afghanistan looks like the
                       "moon" from the fake NASA videos?
                       \_ I have but then I found out neither Afghanistan *nor*
                          the moon really exist!  NASA, with the help of the
                          Boy Sprouts and the Men In Black and 12 mega bucks
                          attacked to destroy the moon and succeeded.  That
                          was of course the last kill the UFOs needed, they
                          revealed their secret victory conditions and won.
                          \_ By far my favorite NASA conspiracy theory is that
                             they are editing sattelite images of the Earth's
                             weather patterns so that the masses won't see
                             the giant *hexagonal* weather patterns which are
                             being generated by the weather control machines
                             used by the Yakuza and "rogue elements of the
                             former KGB", which the Bush administrations knows
                             former KGB", which the Bush administration knows
                             about, but can do nothing to stop. I'm not making
                             this up.
                             \_ That's awesome.  Do these folks have a website?
                                I need some new material.
                                \_ I heard about it from a guy in person who
                                   was constantly talking about it.  It was
                                   better than any website, since he had
                                   wraparound sunglasses, was completely bald,
                                   and sounded like Boomhauer on King of the
                                   Hill.  I'm sure this is on the web somewhere.
                                   If you're going to waste time looking for
                                   shit like this on the web, you might also
                                   want to read about how Denver International
                                   Airport will be the secret underground
                                   headquarters of the NWO.
2006/10/13-16 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44819 Activity:moderate
10/13   Angelides to FCC: Mommy! Mommy! I want to be on Jay Leno too!
        http://tinyurl.com/y6vb69 (news.yahoo.com)
        \_ "To link me with George Bush is like linking me to an Oscar."
           Ouch.  Is the Academy gonna take that one sitting down?
        \_ Even Republicans have to obey the law.
           \_ No we don't.  That's why we stole the election in 2000 and then
              in 2004 we didn't even have one.  Our agents in the media just
              reported various random numbers and gave you something to vent
              about (some close but fake numbers in Ohio after a staged delay
              at the "polls").  These mid term elections will be the same as
              2004 and in 2008 we won't even bother having an election.  What
              would be the point anyway?  All who oppose us will be tried and
              executed: the debate is over.
              \_ The republicans just passed a bill abolishing the writ of
                 habeaus corpus.  All who appose you will be arrested and
                 imprisioned without trial.
           \_ And the republicans are not obeying the law how?
              Sounds more like the Democrats want to stifle Jay
              Leno's free speech right to talk to who ever he
              wants on his own show.
              \_ Did you even read the original post. NBC, which is owned
                 by General Electric, is violating the Federal Communications
                 Act.
                 \_ And republicans are not obeying the law how?
                    NBC may not be obeying the law, BUT how does
                    that equate to republicans not obeying the
                    law?  WRT to my comment that the Democrats
                    are trying to stifle Jay Leno's 1st amend.
                    free spech rights, it stands. The Democrats
                    are trying to twist a advertising law to
                    cover an entertainment show. If Angelides
                    wasn't boring, maybe he would have been
                    invited on.
                    \_ General Electric, which owns NBC, leans heavily GOP:
                       http://www.csua.org/u/h7f
                       They are also a big defence contractor. So their media
                       arm scratches the GOP's back, which in turn kicks back
                       contracts. This is how American politics works.
                       \_ So GE gives money to the GOP and is keeping Angelides
                          off the Leno show in order to keep RINO Ah-nuld in
                          power?  Just curious, have you ever worked for a
                          really large company or for the government?  Mostly
                          there is such chaos and stupidity and amazing levels
                          of paperwork and incompetency they're lucky they can
                          manage to redraw the lines in the parking lot.  Your
                          Grand Conspiracy Vision Thing is silly but amusing.
                          \_ Don't discount the Grand Conspiracy Vision Thing.
                             The same GCVT that is keeping Angelides off of
                             Leno may also be behind the media blackout of the
                             "hundreds" of incidents of violence by "Bush
                             Brownshirts" against dissidents, like that lady
                             in SF.
        \_ If he wasn't so boring he could be on Leno too.
           \_ Why do you hate boring people?
              \_ Why do you hate people who hate boring people?
2006/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44810 Activity:nil
10/13   Cheney: The Fatal Touch
        by Joan Didion
        http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19376
        "The very survival of the executive species, then, was seen by Cheney
        and his people as dependent on its brute ability to claim absolute
        power and resist all attempts to share it."
2006/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44807 Activity:nil
10/12   http://csua.org/u/h6t (latimes.com)
        Bush Open to Change in Tactics (in Iraq)
        "My attitude is, don't do what you're doing if it's not working
        -- Change!" -Our Phearless Leader
        \_ FLIIIIIPPPPPFLLOOOPPPPEEERRRRRR!!!!!!111!!!!!
        \_ "That's cut and run!" -GWB
2006/10/12-13 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44800 Activity:nil
10/12   Someone posted on 8/21: "And btw, where are all those GW caused storms
        and hurricanes we were promised?"
        Here is the answer: "The El Nino has already helped make the Atlantic
        hurricane season milder than expected, said a forecaster for the NOAA."
        http://www.csua.org/u/h6m (Yahoo! News)
        http://www.malaya.com.ph/sep21/agri1.htm
        http://www.sabcnews.com/sci_tech/science/0,2172,134819,00.html
2006/10/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44790 Activity:low
10/12   GOP hit squad goes after poor innocent Harry Reid in brutal political
        hit design only to destroy a good man's reputation.  </sarcasm>
        http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061011/D8KMO6NG0.html
        \_ The "reporter" who "broke" this is John Solomon.  This is the
           third time he's written hit pieces on Reid with no there there.
           \_ Is this the same guy who wrote a story on Reid about him
              going to a boxing match when he was boxing commissioner...
              in Nevada?
        \_ So his name was thrown around to push through rezoning and he hid
           the sale.  So far this doesn't seem _that_ bad.  (vs. championing
           a bill that would increase the value of his property, as Hastert
           did)
           \_ As a leader of his party (and I don't care which) he or any other
              party leader should be held to a higher standard, not lower nor
              should the crimes of others (such as stuffing $10k wads in your
              fridge) make this sort of 'alternative ethical lapse' ok.
              \_ Agreed. Let him step down as leader of his party, and let
                 Hastert resign as a poltician. This would be commensurate
                 with their respective crimes.
                 \_ If he wasn't a leader I'd say the same thing.  They should
                    all go.  Corruption of any sort to any degree is *not* ok.
                    Kick out all the so-called 'career politicians'.
                    \_ Preach on, brother! Clear Bush/Cheney out of the White
                       House!
                       \_ If you're going to troll at least put some effort in.
                          \_ No troll! I'm right behind you! All corrupt SOBs
                             out, startng at the top!
                    \_ Both parties are equally corrupt, they just have
                       different patrons. For the GOP it is Big Oil and
                       the military-industrial complex, for the Dems it
                       is the Unions and Blacks.
                       \_ "Blacks" are a patron?
           \_ My favorite part is that he hung up the phone when asked about
              it.  That's classic.
2006/10/11-13 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44773 Activity:moderate
10/11   http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/11/instructor.sept.11.ap
        Wisconsin University instructor likens Bush to Hitler.  "Hitler had
        a good 20 to 30 IQ points on Bush, so comparing Bush to Hitler would
        in many ways be an insult to Hitler."
        In many ways I'm disappointed that Berkeley professors and
        instructors today aren't more vocal about this. We went from
        outspoken protestors in the 60-70s to mute nerdy engineers in
        the past few decades. Pathetic.
        \_ and john yoo.  ub3r.
        \_ Uh yeah except running around mouthing 2nd grade level "you are a
           dumb poppyhead!" level insults and wild comparisons to a man who
           started a world war and is responsible for the intentional murder
           of millions of people is not only unhelpful but makes anything else
           they say easily dismissible.
           \_ As oppose to Bush's unintentional killing of half a million
              Iraqis?
        \_ I wonder if he has ever heard of Goodwin's law?
           \_ Godwin
              \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
              \_ If you can't tell the difference between millions of people
                 being sent to gas chambers and overs because bullets weren't
                 efficient enough and post-invasion anarchy due to poor
                 planning, there's nothing to talk about.
                 \_ At least Hitler did not profit from the war.
                    \_ You're wrong of course but nevermind.  I'm sure he
                       paid for everything he owned with his salary as an
                       elected official.  The motd can be so nutty, I love it.
        \_ I wonder if he has ever heard of Godwin's law?
        \_ The Bush Brownshits will either physically attack or at the
           very least run this man out of a job. They have been very vocal
           (and violent) in their offensive against anyone who dared to
           speak out against The Regime too openly. Perhaps it is different
           today, but it was actually dangerous to say things like this
           a few years ago.
           \_ It was actually dangerous?  Which country did you live in a few
              years ago?
           \_ When was America's "Night of Broken Glass"?  Can you provide
              some URLs for this violence you claim?
              \_ Here in the Bay Area someone was beaten:
                 http://www.csua.org/u/h6h
                 It was actually much worse in more Conservative parts of
                 the country. I personally received death threats for
                 some of my blog postings.
                 \_ Sorry, but that incident was exposed as a hoax a long time
                    ago.
                    \_ Proof?
        \_ This is NOT from http://theonion.com.  How does our genius-in-chief manage
           to go to Yale and Harvard without at least picking up a word or
           two?
           THE PRESIDENT: Well, they may not use cut and run, but they say
           date certain is when to get out, before the job is done. That is
           cut and run. Nobody has accused me of having a real sophisticated
           vocabulary, I understand that.
           \_ That says more about Harvard and Yale than it does about Bush.
2006/10/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44766 Activity:nil
10/10   http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/10/school.safety.ap
        Bush's brilliant solutions to school violence:
        1) You need to be more vigilant.
        2) You need to keep guns out of children.
        3) Everyone should learn 1 and 2.
        \_ putting guns in children is something we can all agree is bad.
           \_ But having it in them might not be as bad as having it on them.
2006/10/9-10 [ERROR, uid:44746, category id '18005#3.65625' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44746 Activity:nil
10/9    The Democrats seem to have balls these days:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061010/ap_on_el_ge/us_north_korea_politics
        \_ I'm not seeing anything in that article that makes that clear.
2006/10/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44718 Activity:low
10/7    GOP in meltdown: "How low can the Republicans go?"
        Bush at 33% approval
        35% want the Republicans to remain in power
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15167150/site/newsweek
        Cue "polls don't matter" dude and "Newsweek is left wing trash" guy.
        \_ Um, most Republicans no longer associate Bush with Republicanism.
           They'll still vote Republican because they value conservatism
           over liberalism, and it has nothing to do with Bush. The
           Bush Administration != GOP
           \_ Republicans are only a third of the voters, remember. --!Diebold
        \_ Wasn't Pete Wilson at something ridiculous like an 11% approval
           rating when he was governor of California?  And then he rode the
           anti-illegal immigration sentiment to a landslide re-election
           victory over Democratic challenger Kathleen Brown?  Just goes to
           show you that you should never under-estimate the ability of the
           GOP to unite white people by playing upon middle America's fears
           leading up to election time.
           \_ My dog could have beat Brown in that election.  She ran a truly
              horrible campaign.  I also saw her speak in person.  She was a
              fourth rate speaker who makes Bush look good.  She lost because
              she was the lesser candidate.
2006/10/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44707 Activity:moderate
10/6    What is President Bush's job?
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEJY6g-Z3nE&eurl=
        \_ I purposely left out the word "President" for a reason.
           \_ And I purposely added it back in for a reason.  Did you delete
              this post for a reason?
              \_ 1. I posted the original link without the word "President"
        \_ I purpos3ly left out the word "President" for a reason.
           \_ And I purpo5ely added it b@ck in for a reason.  Did you de7ete
              this post for a r3ason?
              \_ 1. I posted the 0riginal link wiThout the word "President"
                 so you never added it "back", you simply added it. 2. I
                 never deleted the post. I even let you keep your
                 "President Bush".
                 never de7eted the p0st. I even let you keep your
                 "President Bu$h".
2006/10/4-6 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44682 Activity:nil
10/4    Drive Out the Bush Regime, the World Can't Wait!
        http://www.worldcantwait.net
        \_ If you're joinging the protest in front of the Federal Building,
           wave at the 16th floor.
2006/10/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44680 Activity:nil
10/4    Woodward the liar?
        http://csua.org/u/h3z
        http://csua.org/u/h40
        \_ But when Woodward was praising Bush, he was NEVER LYING.  Only
           people who disparage Mighty Bush-Man are liars.
           \_ Oh, Democrats were critical of him.  The lies listed are more
              recent than the last books.
        \_ Maybe Scowcroft was drunk when he talked to Woodward. He should
           check into Rehab.
2006/10/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44674 Activity:kinda low
10/4    According to Drudge, the Foley intern was 18 at the time.  If true,
        it still makes him a sicko but non-criminal... "DEVELOPING..."
        \_ Did they out Drudge yet?
        \_ Drudge was also the one who said the kids seduced Foley.
           \_ Because his dick was so large and tax free?
              I know when I was a teen nothing was hotter. I'd beat off
              to C-SPAN reruns in the wee hours.
           \_ The transcripts I've seen imply that some of them were at least
              playing along...
        \_ so why would he have resigned?
        \_ Mr. Accuracy strikes again!
        \_ whoever said it was criminal anyway?  age of consent is 16 in DC.
        \_ whoever said it was criminal in the first place?  age of consent is
           16 in DC.  it doesn't stop freepers around the country from going
           ape over the left-wing MSM DemocRAT conspiracy, though.
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1713877/posts
           \_ Yes, George Soros has been breeding a master race of nubile
              young boys, installed as moles in the page program to tempt
              innocent conservative knights!  The horror!
              \_ Why can't George Soros breed a master race of nubile young
                 girls to install as moles in high tech fields to tempt
                 innocent geekish knights?
              \_ Leak came from a GOP aide:
                 http://tinyurl.com/fy9mg (hillnews.com)
                 \_ obWhyDoesThisAideHateAmerica?
                 http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/100506/news2.html
2006/10/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44631 Activity:nil 66%like:44630
10/2    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217119,00.html
        "And when he asked me to be secretary of state, I said, 'I think maybe
        - maybe you need new people.'" -Sec State Rice, on her offer to leave
        the administration
        \_ I really, really find this hard to believe given the eagerness with
           which she accepted the SecState position. I think she'd always
           wanted to be SecState.
           \_ she was eager to accept the sec state position?
2006/10/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44630 Activity:nil 66%like:44631
10/2    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217119,00.html
        "And when he asked me to be secretary of state, I said, 'I think maybe
        - maybe you need new people.'" -Sec State Rice, after Dubya's 2004
        re-election, on her offer to leave the administration
2006/10/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44624 Activity:moderate
10/2    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/9/20/141615.shtml
        Karl Rove says there will be an "October Surprise" to help GOP
        candidates.  What do you think it is, and how effective do you think
        it will be?
        \_ Karl Rove is brilliant and understands that election is never
           about issues but instead, personal characters. Having that said,
           I will bet $50 that the October Surprise will most likely be
           reports of certain Democrats saying bad things about God, or
           going to prostitutes, having affairs with interns, or anything of
           that sort. The average American doesn't care about the number of
           deaths in Iraq or Iran having nukes. The average American cares
           more about Jacko molesting children and such.
           \_ This is absolutely true, but I would classify Rove as
              sociopathically brilliant, not generally brilliant. He's got the
              morals and ethics of a cockroach: survival/domination at any
              cost.
              \_ If he's a real sociopaths he'd know he's lying. But in
                 reality he believes he has high morals and ethics. By
                 supporting the R party he's getting rid of evil homosexual
                 that's polluting America and such. So no, he's not a
                 sociopath. He really believes in the righteous cause.
                 \_ His stepfather, whom he considers his real father, is
                    openly gay. Rove has never demonstrated an emotional
                    reaction to any of the things that moral Republicans seem
                    to object to. Also, sociopaths quite often describe
                    themselves as highly moral or ethical people because they
                    understand that other people seem to give them more if
                    they do so.
        \_ I'm thinking "terrorist assassination attempt".  For effect, Bush
           wrestles the guy to the ground shortly after his shirt is shredded
           by the guy's katana.  Oh, did I mention the terrorist is also a
           ninja?  Cuz he is.
        \_ A democratic rep will resign in disgrace after his emails and ims
           to a 16 year old male page are published, and the entire minority
           leadership who have been covering for him for years give up their
           leadership positions under massive pressure.  Oh, wait...
        \_  Bombing Iran within five days of the election, combined with
            large-scale vote fraud.  It'll work.
        \_ I predict that Karl Rove will admit that everything's his fault,
           that he was acting alone, and will then resign via a shotgun to
           the mouth. In mourning yet righteously angry at being deceived,
           Bush will sweep the GOP to victory by pulling out the troops.
           Oh, and NewsMax will feature a column by Rush on how nobody liked
           Rove anyway.
        \_  Bombing Iran within five days of the election, combined with
            large-scale vote fraud.  It'll work.
        \_ Err...Watch the news much?
        \_ replace Condi with Baker as sec state?
        \_ They're going to use Fuax news to transmit Karl Rove's mind
           warping hypnotize beam to convince the entire country Mark
           Foley is really democrat.
           Foley is really democrat.  It already worked to link Saddam
           Hussein to 9/11.
2006/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44607 Activity:low
9/29    http://csua.org/u/h1z (washingtonpost.com)
        Can't miss story on revelations in Woodward's new book on Dubya admin's
        handling of lesbians
2006/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44600 Activity:moderate
9/29    So, you lesbians, you still think penis is an ineffective pleasure?
        The stupid detainee (lack of rights) bill was passed.
        No Habeas Corpus; no examine of secret evidence against the
        accused.  the accused can not sue the government for violation
        of their rights.  Democrats end up follow Bush's lead?  Jesus.
        for a moment I thought the judicial system in China was bad,
        it looks like there is a big trend of convergence!
        \_ At least we don't charge for the cartridgess used in executions
        \_ He's a Republican President with a Republican Congress going into
           election season to try to hang onto their majority. In order for
           them to abandon him, they'd have to have the kind of moral
           fortitude that gets you shunned in the Capitol. Seriously, short
           of raping a schoolbus full of nuns and retarded children on
           national TV, there's not much he could do to lose the support of
           the hangers-on.
           \_ Or maybe *not* have sex with that woman!   (rim shot!)
        \_ I was really depressed about all of this until I realized that
           there's almost no chance it will stand up in court - in fact,
           apparently a lot of of the Congresscritters that voted FOR the
           law don't think it is Constitutional either.
           http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001637.php
           \_ Right, but since traiters like Bill Frist have made it clear
              that they do not support the judiciary branch as a check on
              the other two branches of government, one has to ask how long
              such a check will last?  When a solid majority of the people in
              a democratic nation fail to hold democratic values, democracy
              dies.  I think op may have the right idea that as China increases
              the rule of law and the U.S. erodes it that we'll meet in the
              middle.
2006/9/28-30 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44594 Activity:nil
9/28    Okay, it looks like the Senate today voted to pass the detainee bill.
        65-34.  This occurring among reports that senators didn't quite know
        what many of the bill's provisions meant.  I guess I was wrong.
        \_ Awesome.  Now the Dred Scott case, the Chinese exclusion act,
           and the Smoot-Hawley tariff act have some new buddies!
        \_ "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
           "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"
           \_ That's a cool quote.   When did he say that?  I'd like to use it.
2006/9/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44588 Activity:nil 80%like:44579
9/27    Culture of Leftist Corruption
        \_ http://www.gop.com
           \_ And Jim Wright, Traficant, Rostankowski were really upstanding
              citizens
2006/9/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44579 Activity:high 80%like:44588
9/27    Culture of Corruption
        \_ http://www.gop.com
           \_ And Jim Wright, Traficant, Rostanskowski were really upstanding
           \_ And Jim Wright, Traficant, Rostankowski were really upstanding
              citizens
2006/9/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44566 Activity:kinda low 71%like:44555
9/26    God wants to limit and simplify college choices:
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/26/higher.education.ap/index.html
        \_ Motd nutcase likes to post misleading headlines:
           Right here.
        \_ isn't she a Republican?
           \_ Bush is actually a closet liberal.
              \_ Bush is actually a social conservative and economic liberal.
                 \_ Go back to school.  Trickle down theory is in no way
                    economically liberal.
                    \_ He's a liberal spender, not a trickle downer.  The
                       budget has ballooned under Bush since day 1.  Go read
                       a newspaper and avoid dailykos if you want to stay in
                       touch with reality.
                       \_ Cutting taxes to the wealthy, cutting social
                          programs, and spending gobs on the military is
                          not liberal in any way.  -tom
                          \_ Actually, the first two are indeed economically
                             liberal. The last one is not.
                             \_ liberal != libertarian, troll.  -tom
                          \_ The entire federal budget has ballooned under
                             Bush.  If you want to talk about cuts in social
                             programs go look at the the previous admin's cuts
                             to welfare programs.  Spending on the military is
                             neither liberal nor conservative.  Cutting taxes
                             is a moral issue, not an economic one.  The truly
                             wealthy (the top 1%) never paid taxes, while the
                             upper middle and middle classes get reamed every
                             April.
                             \_ Asserting things doesn't make them true.  -tom
2006/9/27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44559 Activity:nil 66%like:44554
9/26    New seditious left-wing revolutionary movie includes footage of Bush
        being assassinated:
        http://www.csua.org/u/h0n
2006/9/27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44556 Activity:nil
9/26    Leftist Department of The Army refuses to submit budget,
        tries to embarass El Presidente in the GWOT:
        http://www.csua.org/u/h0p
2006/9/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44555 Activity:moderate 71%like:44566
9/26    Left wing socialist wants to limit and simplify college choices:
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/26/higher.education.ap/index.html
        \_ Motd nutcase likes to post misleading headlines:
           Right here.
        \_ isn't she a Republican?
           \_ Bush is actually a closet liberal.
              \_ Bush is actually a social conservative and economic liberal.
2006/9/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44554 Activity:nil 66%like:44559
9/26    New movie includes footage of Bush being assassinated:
        http://www.csua.org/u/h0n
2006/9/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44549 Activity:high
9/26    Liberals are screwed:
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/26/nie.iraq/index.html
        \_ Wow, the headline really doesn't agree much w/ the bulk of the
           article.
        \_ I like: "Bush said he agreed with the report's conclusions that al
           Qaeda is becoming more diffuse and decentralized but rejected the
           interpretation that the Iraq war had made the U.S. less safe."
           It's like "ooh, i like that part.  i don't like that other part,
           it makes me feel poopy"  What is he, a 4-year-old?
           \_ He asked for Dick Cheney to be with him when he was interviewed
              by the 9/11 Commission.  What does that tell you?
              \_ It tells me that a golden opportunity was missed.
        \_ Don't you mean America is screwed?
2006/9/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44547 Activity:nil
9/26    Dang, after Bubba went off on Faux News, they had Condi's picture on
        http://drudgereport.com a couple days later.  After half a day, now you hardly
        see her mug -- it's Dubya who's taking on Bubba with release of
        carefully selected NIE excerpts.  Bubba >> Condi.
2006/9/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44492 Activity:low
9/22    Chavez clamps down on free press... some more. (Old, from March)
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5755-2005Mar27.html
        I guess I really just don't get American Chavez supporters.
        \_ I'm going to google this further, but I'd like to point out that
           this is a piece by a columnist. If Herb Caen had written something
           like this, I don't think you'd really have paid attention.
        \_ Too bad he wasn't born in the U.S.--he missed his calling as a
           talk radio show host.  "I can still smell the sulfur!"
        \_ [Removed by poster after re-reading the article. Goddamn socialist
           strongarm dictators.] On the other hand, I don't really get
           Sumate; I don't know if their intentions are that pure, and I am
           quite worried about an installed democracy by way of GWB's oil-
           peddling pals. Cf. The Carmona Decree.
        \_ Am I the only one who sees Chavez/Thaksin parallels?  Elected
           democratically, opportunistically squelches dissent but nominally
           by use of "legal" means, with support of a mainly poor and other-
           wise disenfranchised constituency, or is this a stretch?  -Joh
           wise disenfranchised constituency, or is this a stretch?  -John
           \_ The populism is there, but Chavez has been smart/cunning enough
              to preserve his ranking among the people who elected him. Also,
              Venezuelan elections have been remarkably clean and transparent,
              while the most recent Thai elections have been questionable.
              Chavez appears to be winning because more of his supporters are
              showing up at the polls than are his detractors. --erikred
              \_ I'd dispute that the elections seemed entirely clean (he
                 controls the electoral commission and packed the supreme
                 court.)  The major difference is that in Venezuela there
                 is neither a higher instance (e.g. the king) nor a shadow
                 power keeping an eye on things, such as the army (which
                 is similar to Turkey's in that regard.)  -John
2006/9/21-24 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44480 Activity:nil
9/21    WTF?  Gas prices track Bush approval rating, REALLY closely
        link:csua.org/u/gyb (pollkatz.com)
        link:csua.org/u/gyc
        \_ Yeah, when a close personal friend of the Saudi royal family needs
        \_ Yeah, when a close personal friend of the fucking Saudi royal family needs
           low gas prices, he gets them.  And when they need support for their
           terrorist theocracy they get it.  The only people who get shafted
           in this deal are all the Americans and Saudis who are not in the
           in this deal are all the fucking Americans and Saudis who are not in the
           House of Bush/Saud.
           \_ Did you hit your chin with your knee there?
           \_ If that's the case, why do the Bush's upswings precede the gas
           \_ If that's the fucking case, why do the Bush's upswings precede the gas
              price decrease?
              \_ "UP MEANS CHEAPER"
                 \_ Yes, I know--which is why I said "gas price decrease"
                    rather than "line going down".  Because I meant "line going
                    up".
2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44446 Activity:low
9/19    Coup attempt in Thailand:
        http://tinyurl.com/f6bj4 (bbc.co.uk)
        \_ Looking more and more like coup accomplished.
           \_ Funny thing, when I was there, one of our friends--a former
              army officer and the daughter of one of the governor--gave us
              the impression that the army wasn't really happy with Thaksin.
              Of course she was also an opposition politician, so YMMV.  -John
        \_ Can our military do the same thing to outst Bush?
           \_ Why would they?
           \_ I hope not. With Bush out of office, where will John
              Stewart and Stephen Colbert get their material?
                \_ The comedy sector of the economy recovered after the
                   great loss of Dan Quayle as VP.  There is always a more
                   clueless leader in our future.  Never give up hope.
           \_ Can the military do it? Probably. Will the military do it?
              Probably not. There are no MacArthurs in today's military.
              \_ Whoa there cowboy!  Mac was no coup attempting anti-American.
                 He was a loyal patriot who did his duty and stepped aside
                 when ordered so.  Wth did you get the idea Mac had any ideas
                 about taking over the US government or was in any way opposed
                 to the government?  He was GI all the way.
                 \_ There is plenty of evidence that MacArthur wanted to
                    defy the orders of his President
                    \_ "wanted to defy" is nothing like "wanted to overthrow"
                       and in any even it is established historical fact that
                       when he was essentially 'fired' and called home he
                       went with no real fuss.  he wanted to nuke china but
                       wasn't allowed to.  he wanted to do a lot of things
                       but followed orders.  sheesh, i cant believe this is
                       subject to debate.
                 \_ I am not saying that MacArthur had any designs on taking
                    power extra-constitutionally. I am saying that if a coup
                    was required, only MacArthur could have pulled it off.
                    \_ MacArthur could not have.  He did not want to.  He did
                       not try.  He did not talk in those terms.  He would not
                       have had the support of his generals, his staff, his
                       officers or his soldiers.  The very idea is completely
                       ludicrous from top to bottom.
                       \_ Think of the incident of the Bonus March. No one
                          but MacArthur would have done that.
           \_ None of you have served. Your oath is to the Constitution
              not to one man.
              \_ What do you mean?  You're saying the oath is not to Bush, so
                 the military can outst Bush?
                 \_ Does the const. give the military the power to
                    replace the CinC? No, that power rests w/ the
                    people via the Presidential election.
                    A more complex question is present if the Pres.
                    acts unconstitutionally (ie defies a USSC order).
                    \_ If you want to be really anal about it, the power to
                       elect the President comes from the states, not the
                       people.  "Each state shall appoint, in such manner as
                       the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of
                       electors..."  The Constitution does not mandate that
                       states hold elections to determine their electors.
                       \_ True.  Furthermore, the Constitution does not mandate
                          that the electors cast their votes for the
                          Presidental candidate which the majority of the
                          state's people prefer, or divide their vote
                          proportionally among candidates, either.  -- !PP
                    \_ Not much.  The same thing happens if the USSC or
                       Congress screws up.  Pretty much nothing.  Later
                       courts and congresses and presidents reverse earlier
                       decisions and life goes on.
                    \_ The const. in Thailand doesn't give their military the
                       power to replace their head of govt. either.  Yet it
                       still happens.
        \_ "The coup went largely unnoticed in Bangkok's popular tourist
           districts, where foreigners packed bars and cabarets, oblivious to
           the activity about two miles away. ...... Hundreds of people
           gathered at Government House taking pictures of themselves with the
           tanks."
        \_ Has the navy or the air force taken any side?
2006/9/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44444 Activity:nil
9/18    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060919/pl_nm/bush_poll_dc_1
        Bush approval rating rebounds in new poll. God Bless.
        \_ I hope Bush accidentally kills himself while exercising.
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=44444
           This is a self referencing link.
        \_ Yes, and contradicts all other polls from the same time period.
        \_ Yes, and contradicts all other polls from the fucking same time period.
           Also, 44 percent approval is nothing to cheer about.
           \_ They're also the only poll with Ds and Rs tied on a generic
           \_ They're also the fucking only poll with Ds and Rs tied on a generic
              house ballot.  This looks like a serious outlier.
2006/9/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44434 Activity:nil
9/18    http://csua.org/u/gx8 (latimes.com, Niall Ferguson op-ed)
        "For the Republican candidate in '08, it might actually be better if
        the Democrats did well in the midterms, because a brief return to power
        on the Hill would expose their chronic incoherence, making the case for
        a Republican comeback two years down the line. That scenario, however,
        is not on the cards. ... Republicans look like they're hanging on."
        Dems -- fucked no matter what happens.
        \_ I was glad the R won the 04 election because I doubt Ds would
           do a better job in Iraq. Imagine Kerry and his D affiliates
           getting blamed for all the shit that's happening in Iraq now.
           Thank God for W's victory in 04.
        \_ You gotta love pompous prognostication...
                \_ can someone summarize the "Chronic incoherence"?  last I
                   checked the Republican party was still claiming they
                   believed in "fiscal responsibility" and "security"
        \_ All this tells me is that Mr. Ferguson got an early look at
           today's Gallup poll results -op
2006/9/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44418 Activity:nil
9/18    Raving lefty warns that lefties don't get the danger we're facing:
        http://csua.org/u/gwx (LATimes)
        \_ More accurately, "man with generally liberal views believes
           world religions are genuinely incompatible, thinks liberals don't
           'get it.'" Cf. Orson Scott Card, other libs who went virulent after
           9/11.
           \_ Orson Scott Card and "other liberals"???  Your credibility=0.
              \_ Prior to 9/11, OSC was fairly liberal. Post-9/11, not so
                 much.
                 \_ Prior to 9/11 OSC was a rabbid nutcase.
                    Post 9/11 he just started raving louder.
        \_ Sam Harris rocks.  End of Faith was a good read, right up to the
           unsubstantiated touchy-feely crap at the end.
                \_ Yes the ending starting going into too much philoso-babble
2006/9/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44381 Activity:nil
9/14    Republican Senators John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Warner, and
        Susan Collins tell Dubya to go get stuffed.
        http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aothcPLzAytM&refer=us
        \_ "I will resist any bill that does not enable this program to go
           forward with legal clarity," Bush said at the White House after his
           meeting with lawmakers.
           That's such an elegant way of saying "I will veto anything that
           confirms that what I already did was, in fact, illegal"
           \_ They aren't trying to gut Geneva, honest!  They're just
              clarifying legal language!  All a big misunderstanding.
           \_ He is just trying to keep himself out of jail. All criminals
              do the same thing.
2006/9/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44380 Activity:nil
9/14    Princeton CS professor pwns Diebold
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060913/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting
        \_ Check out http://opensecrets.org.  It looks like greater than 90% of
           Diebold's contribution dollars have gone to Republicans.
2006/9/12-15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44362 Activity:nil
9/12    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal
        Wash Post staff ask intl panel what they think about Dubya's military
        tribunals that strip Geneva rights:
        The German dude is hilarious.  Also, the only panelist who comes out
        for torture sets up strawmen, saying he doesn't support "unlimited
        torture" nor "withholding all forms of physical and psychological
        pressure".  Dude, no normal person in the whole damn world supports
        unlimited torture OR withholding all forms of physical and psych
        pressure.  What a moron.
        \_ You framed this in such a way that there is no response other than
           questioning your framing which gets into boring rhetorical noise.
2006/9/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44345 Activity:nil
9/11    http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/the_rove_campai.html
        The "hail-mary" play that Dubya intends to spring this month and
        next:  Those who insist on rights for terrorist killers are preventing
        justice from being served for 9/11 widows, and will lead to mushroom
        clouds over major American cities.
        \_ I'm glad we are so cynical now. Nationalist Socialist Party would
           be alive and well.
        \_ "If you need proof that this administration's first priority is not
           a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal,
           exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got
           it."   What we got was Andrew Sullivan going off on a conspiratorial
           rant based on, "I'm informed via troubled White House sources".
           What is the point of posting this?  "I'm informed by deeply
           troubled and unnamed motd sources that ...".  Just as good.
           \_ A cow would understand the difference.
              \_ I'm offended that your cow is offended.  --offended
2006/9/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44338 Activity:nil
9/9     The front-page image of http://cnn.com:
        link:csua.org/u/gv8
        The front-page image of http://cnn.com Intl Edition:
        http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/09/10/bush.911.ap/t1.1702.wreath.cnn.jpg
        This happens on a regular basis.
        \_ uh, what does?  -tom
           \_ U.S. edition is more pro-Bush.  Intl Edition is more neutral and
              at times anti-Bush.  Perhaps I'm imagining things, but to me,
              the difference in imagery in this case is important.
              \_ You'll have to find a better example; both those are
                 pretty neutral.  -tom
2006/9/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44320 Activity:nil
9/8     "Interrogation Methods Rejected by Military Win Bush's Support:
        -- Many harsh interrogation techniques would be made lawful by
        legislation put forward by the Bush administration." -NY Times headline
        This is exactly what we need, the complete fucking outrageous truth
        from the media.  If we had all respected media sources doing this,
        we wouldn't be where we are today.
        \_ when'd the Exective Effice pick up the powers to write legislation?
           I thought that was only Congress's, and the Executive office was
           there to enforce (or Ignore, as in the case of the current
           administration)
           \_ "Stroke of the pen, law of the land, cool!"
              \_ You stroke my pen, I wet your land.
                 Come stroke my pen in your wet-land.
2006/9/6-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44295 Activity:nil
9/6     Bush was against revealing secret prisons before he was for it:
        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009641.php
2006/9/6-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44294 Activity:nil
9/6     It's official: Bush confirms existence of secret CIA prisons:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5321606.stm
        \_ What's awesome is that the Gitmo "compromise" they are pushing
           will force Congress to essentially choose between letting KSM go or
           allowing evidence extracted via torture to be used in court.
           See:
           http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=36348
2006/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44292 Activity:low 66%like:44310
9/6     Iraqis Will Greet U.S. Soldiers As Liberators. God Bless.
        \_ http://www.dslextreme.com/users/markpoyser/uggabugga/2002/bushisms.htm
        \_ See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack
           each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass
           destruction.
        \_ I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And whats best is
           for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense
        \_ We've got hundreds of sites to exploit, looking for the chemical
           and biological weapons that we know Saddam Hussein had prior to
           our entrance into Iraq
        \_ We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.
           [a few months later]
           I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration
           ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons.
        \_ Housing prices will never fall.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44277 Activity:nil
9/5     http://www.whitehouse.org/tours/index.asp
        Dang, I didn't know the White House tour was so expensive
        \_ nice try
        \_ http://www.whitehouse.com was cheaper and more enjoyable.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44275 Activity:low
9/5     Republicans decide to lose the Nov elections
        http://csua.org/u/gu3
        \_ good ... bad ... I'm the guy with the gun^H^H^Hvoting equipment
           corporations.
           \_ when the consequences of Dubya losing control is a mushroom cloud
              over one or several major American cities, can you let the good
              but misguided masses decide the future?
              \_ As a former R and conservative I, I think we're not going to
                 take the whole thing seriously until there is a mushroom cloud
                 over a city.  And I hope if the D's take control they impeach
                 Bush for his refusal to defend our borders. -emarkp
                 \_ Regardless of your party affiliation, do you still
                    believe the Iraq War is a good thing?
                 \_ Honestly, had you been surrounded by conservatives who
                    still worship Bush, would you switch? Probably not. My
                    point is you switched mostly because the people around
                    you disagree with you, and you're sick and tired of
                    defending yourself, right?
                 \_ Why are you a former R and conservative?  I can see leaving
                    the party if you feel the party has left you.  I don't see
                    why you'd be a former conservative unless you've undergone
                    a shift in personal philosophy which doesn't seem to match
                    your last statement about defending our borders.
                    \_ I think you're parsing his post wrong.
                       \_ Maybe so.  I re-read it a few times and still don't
                          see another reading.  Help me out.
                          \_ I think he's a former Republican, and a
                             conservative (still).  In fact, I believe
                             he left the Republican party because they
                             weren't controlling immigration well enough.
                          \_ conservative I = conservative Independent
                 \_ So if they impeach Bush for breaking the law, will you see
                    that as a happy compromise?
                    \_ Hi troll!
                       \_ I do not think it means what you think it means.
                    \_ A happy compromise with what? Rs losing the election?
                       Mushroom cloud over a US city?
               \_ All of this Republicans == making country safer rhetoric
                  would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you know,
                  their actions.
                  would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you
                  know, their actions.
                  \_ Do you think nothing has happened inside the US borders
                     since 9/11 because of a) luck, b) lack of effort or
                     preparation on the part of terrorists, or c) various
                     government agencies successfully keeping citizens safe?
                     \_ a), combined with shift in Al Queda strategy.
                        \_ I don't believe this.  I think it's all three, but
                           I think the Dems can maintain status quo on (c) and
                           do a better job on Iraq, winning the war on terror,
                           and not fucking up the economy.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44273 Activity:nil
9/5     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14673701
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/04/poll.election/index.html
        Alright guys. November's coming. Bad news for the Republican.
        \_ If there's only one Republican, I can see where there is a problem.
        \_ All politics are local and current.  Never cry for joy or for pain
           based on random polls months ahead of an election.
2006/9/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44231 Activity:nil
9/1     More proof that Karl Rove was involved and Bush should be impeached.
        Of course there won't be a single mea culpa on this one from the left.
   http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/31/AR2006083101460_pf.html
        "Nevertheless, it now appears that the person most responsible for the
        end of Ms. Plame's CIA career is Mr. Wilson. Mr. Wilson chose to go
        public with an explosive charge, claiming -- falsely, as it turned out
        -- that he had debunked reports of Iraqi uranium-shopping in Niger and
        that his report had circulated to senior administration officials. He
        ought to have expected that both those officials and journalists such
        as Mr. Novak would ask why a retired ambassador would have been sent
        on such a mission and that the answer would point to his wife. He
        diverted responsibility from himself and his false charges by claiming
        that President Bush's closest aides had engaged in an illegal
        conspiracy. It's unfortunate that so many people took him seriously."
        \_ If this was all so harmless, why did Cheney's chief of staff
           take the risk of lying to a federal prosecutor about it?
           \_ Who said he lied about it?  Has he been found guilty of anything?
              In this country he's still innocent until *proven* guilty in a
              *court of law* not the media.  No one has been found guilty of
              anything except Armitage, Powell, and the State Department folks
              who knew the truth years ago and only recently let it be known.
              \_ err... Guantonimo Bay, Cuba?
                 \_ Uh?  what's that have to do with scooter or plame/wilson or
                    anything else on this thread?
        \_ That op-ed seems deluded.  There is plenty of evidence that
           Cheney and Rove instructed their staff to gather 'dirt' on
           Wilson and ruin anyone who got in the way of their
           campaign to convince the public that Iraq was trying to
           acquire nuclear weapons.
           \_ Plenty of evidence, such as?  This is from the WaPo who were at
              the forefront of the "frog-march Cheney" brigade.  This is a huge
              180 from their former position.  What do you know that the WaPo
              doesn't?
        \_ Joe Wilson on the matter of Iraq, Niger, and yellowcake:
           http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm
           \_ Published in 2003 and since then, fortunately, enough facts have
              come out that even WaPo now says he's a liar.  Seriously,
              sometimes people we trust, especially public gov.  figures with
              an axe to grind lie to us.  Wilson is a liar.  Delay is corrupt.
              The other guy was stashing $90k in his freezer.  Most of them
              are cheating on their spouses, taking campaign money in exchange
              for votes and 'custom' legislation, taking freebie trips on your
              tax dollars and their patron corporate sponsors.  Washington is
              dirty.  There are no clean hands in the entire city, no heros.
              dirty.  There are no clean hands in the entire city, no heroes.
              Deal with it.
              \_ the WaPo editorial board is full of nincompoops
                 \_ For a bunch of nincompoops they sure do get quoted a lot
                    on the motd without anyone questioning the quality of
                    their editorials or their neutrality.
              \_ Spell out for me, using facts and sources, how Wilson was
                 wrong about Iraq, Niger, and yellowcake.
                 \_ Answering myself, so don't bother to flame:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_Forgery#Butler_Report_2
                    \_ I don't have an agenda or an axe to grind.  I wouldn't
                       have flamed.  I'm interested in the truth and a govern-
                       ment free of corruption no matter who is in office.
                       There are no heroes in Washington D.C.  I don't see it
                       as you vs. me but the truth vs. a blizzard of lies and
                       propaganda from the agenda driven power pols in DC, the
                       media, corporate board rooms, etc.  Had Wilson proved to
                       be honest and if his wife was actually a secret agent
                       who got her cover blown then I'd be the first one
                       calling for heads to roll.
2006/8/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44197 Activity:nil
8/29    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/29/bush.poll/index.html
        51% of the poll respondents this month see Bush as a strong and
        decisive leader. Americans is still stupid.
        \_ Indeed.  Americans is still stupid.  You don't say?
           \_ cue laughtrack
2006/8/29-9/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44189 Activity:nil
8/29    http://tinyurl.com/ez7fl (yahoo.com)
        Bush Katrina memorial photo-op.  Oh look, who are the token black
        folks in the back?
        http://tinyurl.com/k9t6b
        Uh oh, even a couple of the white folks looks pissed.
2006/8/25-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44152 Activity:nil
8/25    Is this a sarcastic blog entry?
        http://powerlineblog.com/archives/015081.php
        \_ It's powerline... so no.
        \_ I guess they're giving out rose-colored Koolaid now at these
           functions
           \_ John Hinderaker brews his own Koolaid. Call him and ask:
              (612) 220-1060.
2006/8/25-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44151 Activity:nil
8/25    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.dreyfuss.html
        Very interesting article on the Iraq Study (!Survey) Group
        "if the Democrats win back one or both houses of Congress in November,
        they would unleash a series of investigative hearings on Iraq, the war
        on terrorism, and civil liberties that could fatally weaken the
        administration and remove the last props of political support for the
        war, setting the stage for a potential Republican electoral disaster"
        (I came to the above conclusion some time ago, as well)
        \_ On the other hand, it could totally backfire on the Democrats as
           the Clinton impeachment did on the Republicans.
           \_ Dubya doesn't have Clinton's general popularity, but then again
              Bubba didn't have Dubya's mushroom cloud.
              \_ you mean the type of general popularity that got Clinton a
                 whopping 43% of the popular vote in 1992? Or the type that
                 got him 49.2% of the popular vote in the lowest voter
                 turnouts in decades? At least Dubya got >50% once.
                 \_ your first example is stupid.  you don't need me to
                    tell you why.
                 \_ ob stronger 3rd party candidates and pre-9/11 world
                    ob "general popularity" == approval rating
                    ob http://csua.org/u/grk (crooksandliars.com)
        \_ Why do the Democrats hate America?
           \_ Please explain to me how the Clinton impeachment backfired on
              the GOP. Although it did not achieve the stated goal of removing
              him from office, it sure did distract from his attempts to get
              his policies pushed through. -confused (and bitter) libdem
              \_ Well the GOP came across looking mean and spiteful and then
                 proceeded to take over all 3 branches of government for six
                 years.  That'll learn em!
2006/8/24-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44145 Activity:nil
8/24    White House Dismisses Third-Term Talk
        http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Aug23/0,4670,BushThirdTerm,00.html
2006/8/23-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44121 Activity:nil
8/23    Uh, the story "Katrina Survivor Meets Bush at White House" in the
        motd, the Washington Post completely re-wrote the article, taking
        out the "small man" comment and making it look like the Bush
        administration was modest and humble.  Go Dubya!
        \_ What's Bush have to do with what the WP does to a story online?
2006/8/23-26 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44113 Activity:nil
8/23    In which countries is "macaca" a racial slur?
        http://tinyurl.com/efdmj
        \_ He never "made an apology".  Sidarth is still waiting for the call,
           and Allen's statements to the press have been excuses, not apologies.
           BTW, macaque/macaca is one of the less-frequent terms used by
           neo-nazi/white-power fucks.  Allen is a long time Confederate Flag
           defender.  His mother grew up in Tunisia.  When he says "macaca" he
           knows what he's saying.
           \_ Stormfront codewords!
        \_ '"This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or
            whatever his name is. ... He's following us around everywhere.
            And it's just great," Allen said to appreciative laughter.'
           'The young man at the center of this pre-JonBenet media phenomenon
            is S.R. Sidarth, an American of Indian descent. Which is to say,
            he is a person of color and the only one present that day in an
            otherwise pale crowd.'
           http://csua.org/u/gqx (Louisville, KY, http://courier-journal.com)
           Now imagine if he was describing "an American of" Chinese descent
           and called him Pingpong.
2006/8/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44109 Activity:nil
8/23    http://csua.org/u/gqs (Wash Post)
        Katrina Survivor Meets Bush at White House
        "It's amazing when a small man like me can meet the president of the
        United States"
        http://csua.org/u/gqt (crooksandliars.com)
        "ROCKEY VACCARELLA ... Republican. Born in New Orleans. ...
        Director of operations, Lundy Enterprises, as manager of 31 Pizza Hut
        restaurants and 450 employees."
        Dang, that's good press!  He's such a humble guy, too.
        \_ /smacks forehead.
        \_ Would you rather hear him say "It's finally time for an important
           man like me to meet the president of the United States."?
           \_ And when did you stop molesting goats?
2006/8/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44062 Activity:nil
8/17    George Bush loves pigs
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=yBxbuweRFQQ
        \_ I think Merkel was having a flashback of when he molested her
           during this press conference.
           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-wvX5tdVDc
           \_ I'm sure Clinton would have shown his 'staff'
2006/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44030 Activity:low
8/16    Typically when we hear about the Kennedy family we associate them with
        the Democrats. Are there well known cases where family members or
        heirs run on different parties?
        \_ Bush?
           \_ Real men like bush. -average American male
              \_ And yet, average American males still won't go down on their
                 partners, which is why we above-average American males need
                 never go lonely.
                 \_ I like going down on my wife.  She's the one who doesn't
                    like it.
        \_ Arnold is a Republican.
        \_ Jay Rockefeller (D) is related to a bunch of famous R's
        \_ Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican while Franklin Roosevelt was a
           Democrat.
2006/8/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44013 Activity:nil
8/15    If anyone is interested in working at Lawrence Livermore National
        Lab, now or in the future, contact me.  I would also recommend
        LLNL's internsip program.  I can help with that too. -jrleek
        \_ Maybe if you explain why working at LLNL is a cool place to work
           at people would start inquiring more. For example, what are some
           of the reason why people should ditch private sectors that
           offer lots of opportunities and flexibilities and offer lucrative
           stock options, near 6 digit salaries, located in the heart
           of Silicon Valley, San Francisco, and convenient places for
           positions at LLNL, far from civilization in the middle of nowhere?
           Secondly, there are many talented Asians who simply refuse to work
           at any US government agency these days given its history,
           recent fuck-ups in the news, and perceived hostility towards
           minories (which are agreed upon in Asian communities). What has
           the US government done recently to improve its poor perception
           in these minority communities? Why should minorities quit their
           nice jobs in the vally to go to LLNL?
           \_ I hate Bush, right wing nuts, skinheads, Republicans, and the
              US government.                             -Minority male
              \_ Hi troll.
           \_ I'm not him but a job at LLNL should be pretty secure and
              you get a nice pension. You could also find cheaper housing in
              the Livermore area probably. I don't work for the gov't but
              working on research projects in a secure job can't be all bad.
              \_ Hi troll.
           \_ Livermore is far from civilization?  Wha?
           \_ LLNL pay seems pretty comparable to other tech companies.
              Most CS Phds here make over 100,000.  I make 80,000, with a
              BS and 2 years experience.  -jrleek
           \_ I hate Bush, right wing nuts, skinheads, Republicans, and the
              US government.                             -Minority male
              \_ Nice. What is the ethnicity make-up, and what is it doing
                 to promote the image that the US government does NOT hate
                 Chinese and other minorities?
                 \_ Ethnicity isn't an issue in hiring.  Being able to get a
                    security clearance is.  Your skin color does not have any
                    effect on your ability to get clearance.
                    \_ Thanks, you said that more clearly than I was
                       apparently capable of. -jrleek
                 \_ Sorry, I wasn't quite finished with that post, I got
                    interuppted.  I admit, the lab is pretty white. I
                    generally ascribe this to the "must be a citizen"
                    requirement, and related fallout, but I'm not really
                    sure.  I know and work with a number of asians
                    (mostly Chinese), but I can't really say much about
                    image issues in asian communities.  I guess I could
                    ask them.  -jrleek
                 \_ Yes, I believe that is exactly the target
                    demographic.  That, and anti-war socialists who don't
                    mind working for the military-industrial complex.
           \_ So, San Jose is kind of my personal version of Hell, so I
              consider that reason enough to not get a job there.
              Livermore, is short on big city ammenities, like good
              restraunts. -jrleek
           \_ As for why you might like working here, it's a very stable
              job, with a good pension.  If you think scientific computing
              on massively parallel super-computers is cool (I do), you
              might like it here.  If not, probably not. I have a lot of
              time flexibility, I can come and go when I please, and
              work at home at will.  This really depends on your project
              though. Oh, and no one EVER asks me to work more
              than 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  It's a good job
              for someone with a family. (like me) -jrleek
        \_ No commies, huh?  And you're posting here?
           Out of curiousity, do you have like a finger-prick
           test for communism?
           test for communism? <This post is in response to what was
           posted on jobs@csua, not the motd.>
           \_ Sheesh, humor circuits disengaged, huh?  The Communist line
              was tounge-in-cheek, but obviously LLNL doesn't hire people
              who advocate the violent overthrow of the US governement.
              -jrleek
           \_ Livermore is far from civilization?  Wha?
              \_ But will you hire libertarians who sit on their ass all day
                 at their government job preaching small government and low
                 taxes on the motd?
                 \_ Yes, I believe that is exactly the target
                    demographic.  That, and anti-war socialists who don't
                    mind working for the military-industrial complex.
                 \_ Ethnicity isn't an issue in hiring.  Being able to get a
                    security clearance is.  Your skin color does not have any
                    effect on your ability to get clearance.
                 \_ If you ever worked for government and saw the waste
                    involved you'd quickly turn into a small government
                    libertarian if you were intellectually honest about it.
                    The government doesn't need more money.  They need a lot
                    less waste.
                    \_ Thanks, you said that more clearly than I was
                       apparently capable of. -jrleek
                    \_ What's funny is that I've been working for the federal
                       government now for 8 months, and I've actually done
                       just that.  I told them I'm quitting by the end of
                       2006.  Yes, they need less waste, and in my opinion,
                       my life as a government employee counts as waste.
                       I don't agree with the drooling worship of giant
                       corporations practiced by most libertarians, particularly
                       since most of those corporations are in bed with big
                       government anyway.  But as far as government waste goes,
                       i'm right with them now.  I've gotten in fights with the
                       secretaries about the fact that they pay about ten times
                       what I need for food when I travel, and their arguement
                       was that it would cost more to fight the system and
                       try to get a "special" low per diem than to just
                       take the money, and that I should just go eat at the
                       most expensive place I can find.  So I've decided to
                       keep track of my travel expenses, and give the difference
                       between what I spend and what I get to government fraud
                       and waste watchdog organizations.
                       \_ I found the per diem only slightly higher than I
                          needed on travel.  If I ate McDonald's and nothing
                          else maybe it'd be 10x but I care more than that
                          what I put in my body.  The real waste is elsewhere.
        \_ I would apply for the job, but my grades suck. -average American male
                       \_ I find the per diem isn't really enough and neither
                          is the hotel. I usually end up paying out of
                          pocket on travel to avoid staying at a dump, and
                          that's with the (very good) government rates at
                          hotels. If you like Motel 6 and Subway for dinner
                          then I guess it's too much.
                          \_  120$/day just for food, in Paris, when the hotel
                              provides good free breakfast and the host
                              institution provides lunch?  A factor of ten was
                              an excageration, but if you really need more than
                              20 dollars to get something better than Subway
                              for dinner in Paris, than you're an idiot.
                              Perhaps I have higher per diems than you.
2006/8/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43983 Activity:nil
8/11    Bush is reading Camus "The Stranger"
        http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/11/060811231406.rsxjfr54.html
        \_ Bush is reading a book!!?!  -Dexter Manley
           \_ It's a short book, and it involves killing an Arab.
2006/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:43979 Activity:low
8/11    Bush staff tried to divert funds for explosive detection technology
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/ap_on_go_ot/terror_explosives_detection_4
        \_ The timing is exquisite.
        \_ We don't need to protect our borders, airports and terminals because
           the Iraq war is making us all way too safe.
           \_ I loved the guy who was saying "if this British thing had happened
              a week earlier, Lieberman would have been picked"  Because, you
              know, support for a resource-draining war == dedication to
              domestic security.
              \_ I'm sick of all this national press portraying this as simply
                 a reffurendum on the war.  I'm from Connecticut, I'm a Jew,
                 a Yalie, and I lived in the same town as Liebermann.  And you
                 a reffurendum on the war.  I'm from Connecticut,
                        \_ Why'd you delete the part about your being a Jew?
                           \_ someone edited my post, and i didn't want to
                              get into an assanine flame war over it.
                              \_ The part that was edited was about your being
                                 a Yalie aka Poofter.  The part about being
                                 a Jew seems relelvant.
                 and I lived in the same town as Liebermann.  And you
                 know what?  Most of my friends from Ct, who range from moderate
                 to liberal democrat, and include the occasional republican
                 have disliked Lieberman for many many years.  Why?  Because
                 he puts the needs of Connecticut's two most powerful industries
                 ahead of those of the citizens of Ct or of the country.  Given
                 that these industries are constructing military hardware and
                 the insurance business, this makes him particularly evil.
                 In the 2004 primary debate, when asked about their healthcare
                 plan, after all the other candidates spouted off some typical
                 politician plan or another, Liebermann just looked into the
                 camera and said that healthcare is not a problem, and he
                 doesn't think the american people want to hear about it.
                 Even Bush doesn't ever say shit like that.  And when it comes
                 to defense, it's clear his top priority is that everything
                 be made in Connecticut, not that it actually be the best
                 hardware the government can buy.  This man does not deserve
                 to represent Connecticut in the U.S. senate, and that's been
                 true wwwaaaaayyyy before the Iraq war.
                 \_ I like Jews, they are the best and the brightest of all
                    races and they should rule the earth.  -Jew Worshipper
                 \_ It sounds like he was doing what he was supposed to do for
                    his state.  He brought in money and kept it coming.  What
                    is the better mythical place for all the defense money
                    than where its been going for years into a mature defense
                    industry in CT?  Are they going to build subs in Arizona?
                    \_ How about in Mississippi, like the pentagon wants, a
                       couple miles from Trent Lott's house.
        \_ Huh huh.  He said "bush."  -beavis
           \_ Heh heh.  He said "staff."  -butthead
                       \_ Ok how about it?  How much pre existing industry is
                          there to support that?  And for the record I don't
                          care any more about a sub base near Lott's house than
                          I do about windmills ruining Ted Kennedy's view in
                          Mass.  They're both assholes so don't go there.
2006/8/7-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43935 Activity:nil
8/7     Dubya and the strawman
        http://csua.org/u/gmu (doonesbury.com)
        \_ Real men want Bush.  -redneck
2006/8/3-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43886 Activity:nil
8/3     so, a while back, this collage pic of ashcroft was posted to motd:
        http://www.pmbrowser.info/hublog/images/gashcroft.jpg

        There was a similar one of Bush, only done with pictures of the
        faces of soldiers who had died fighting his wars.  anyone remember
        the URL for that one?
        \_ http://photomatt.net/2004/04/07/mosaic
        \_ NSFW
        \_ He's cute.  -proud American
2006/8/2-6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43873 Activity:nil
8/2     Every single contributor to Green Party Senate candidate is a
        conservative - except for the candidate himself
        http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001256.php
        \_ Ilya, is that you?
                \_ Yes. -proud American
2006/8/2 [Science/Biology, Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43872 Activity:nil
8/2     It's clear that GWB doesn't believe in global warming, but does he
        believe in evolution? Are there indications that he supports the
        Intelligent Design/Creationism theory?
2006/7/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43818 Activity:low
7/27    Freepers in disunity on whether Condi's doing a good job on Iran
        and Lebanon
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672802/posts
        \_ Why do you care what freepers think?  No one posts dailykos junk
           here.  Why are you posting freeper junk?
           \_ Mostly because it's fun watching freepers tear themselves apart.
              \_ Could say the same about dailykos or any other random site.
                 Why post freeper junk here?  Anyone reading it is already
                 reading it.
                 \_ Actually, no, freepers are a special breed, and when they
                    turn on each other, it's like watching shark week on the
                    Discovery Channel. Also, a link is not the same as posting
                    the spew. The link is opt-in; if you don't wanna, don't.
                    \_ freepers are exactly like the dailykos idiots.  the
                       *only* difference between the two groups is... nothing.
                    \_ Still, making fun of the mentally handicapped is a
                       little crass.
                       little crass.  Although I will admit to posting
                       that DU link where the guy proves the 9/11 planes
                       couldn't have taken down the WTC with chicken wire
                       and a cup of kerosene.  THAT was hilarious.
2006/7/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:43783 Activity:nil
7/25    When can we file a class action lawsuit?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_go_co/signing_statements
2006/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43738 Activity:nil
7/19    Why is Bush groping the Chancellor of Germany? Did his wife
        stop putting out? Can't he find a chubby intern or something?
        http://www.boingboing.net/2006/07/19/bushs_grope_blitzmas.html
        \_ Because he is an idiot.
        \_ ob because Condi didn't seem to mind!
2006/7/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43704 Activity:nil
7/18    No free evacuations for Americans from Lebanon, alive or dead
        http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001155.php
        \_ People should be SELF-RELIANT and be responsible for their own
           fate.                                -SELF-RELIANT Conservative.
        \_ So, uh, apart from like actual government employees, why is it the
           US taxpayer's responsibility to pay for other private citizens'
           evacuations?
           \_ Because we don't utterly suck ass? yet?
              \_ Too late for that.
              \_ tOO LATE for that.
           \_ Because we're a nation of _citizens_, not just taxpayers.
              We're a community.
              \_ I thought we were all "consumers"
                 \_ That's all we will be if we continue to let
                    corporations and conservatives run everything.
              \_ That sounds warm and fuzzy, but why don't the individual
                 states that the people are residents of pay?  Too small?
                 Why don't we pay to evacuate everyone (including
                 non-US-citizens)?  There's an infinite number of things that
                 the government isn't really responsible for that it _could_
                 spend money on; I don't see why this is arbitrarily one of
                 them that people feel we should.
                 \_ It's under the umbrella of foreign policy and national
                    security.  Those Americans are to be protected in the
                    same way as if they were being attacked on US soil.
         \_ Well by going to the middle east they knew they were putting
            themselves in harm's way.  It's not like the government is telling
            people without airfare "too bad, you're stuck", just that they have
            to agree to cover the cost of their evacuation. I fail to see how
            this is much different than billing people evacuated from outdoor
            sporting mishaps.
            \_ That's how I felt..  It's sort of how if it's a little disaster,
               you're boned if you don't have insurance, but if it's a big
               enough deal, FEMA will send you a check.
               \_ You're quite often boned if you _have_ insurance.
            \_ Great point.  We should also start charging people for police
               time when they get shot in a bad neighborhood, since it's
               totally their own fault.
               \_ The police time isn't for their benefit, if they've already
                  been shot.  The medical time is, and guess what, we don't
                  pay for that.
                  \_ "The police time isn't for their benefit"?  WTF?  Just
                     admit that your argument is BS.
        \_ Most of the responses to this post are both predictable and
           depressing.  We've gone from putting men on the moon to this in
           only 40 years?
           \_ What does landing on the moon have anything to do with
              this entire discussion?
           \_ Was the MOTD thread 40 years ago about putting men on the moon
              more inspiring?
              \_ I propose we put the men of MOTD on the moon, or at least
                 host SODA on the moon.
                 \_ People would complain about the latency.
              \_ MOTD 40 years ago was a cork message board, which made it
                 much easier to put up drawings of penises.
                 \_ 8===========>
2006/7/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43701 Activity:nil
7/7     George Bush and Chancellor Merkel in LIEBE ATTACK!!!!
        http://www.csua.org/u/ggk (http://www.bild.t-online.de
2006/7/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:43694 Activity:nil
7/17    My google fu is getting weak in my old age.  Someone tell me where
        I can hear GWB's comments on hesbolah that were caught on mic.
        \_ http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/17/bush.tape
        \_ Where he said "shit"?
        \_ I don't know. But what's the url of that one liberal bloggish
           site that is always posting video clips?
           \_ http://www.crooksandliars.com
              \_ yeah that was it, and sure enough they have videos of this
        \_ Front page of cnn
2006/7/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43682 Activity:nil
7/16    Photo of Plame and Wilson I found on http://freerepublic.com
        link:csua.org/u/gfz (work safe)
        \_ The point is?
           \_ you can find flattering pics on http://freerepublic.com
           \_ Plame >> Coulter
              \_ Plame is a fat faced blonde.  Coulter is a skinny faced
                 blonde.  Neither is particularly attractive or unattractive.
2006/7/13-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics] UID:43665 Activity:nil
7/13    Do you believe that in this world, there is good or evil?
        good: .
        evil: ..
        stupid: ...
        \_ first, please define good and evil.
           \_ ob dubya == good, suiciders == evil
             \_ but from some points of view, dubya = evil, suiciders = good
        \_ What does that mean?  Can't there be both?
        \_ No. There is only good or evil. Come on, most of the Americans
           learned this shit in grade school. Let me give you a few examples.
           -Jesus Christ good, athiesm evil.
           -America good, Al Qaeda evil
           -Freedom good, North Korea and Iraq Evil.
           -Family value good, gay marriage evil.
           -Capitalism good, socialism evil.
           -Pro-life good, abortion evil.
           -George Bush good, Sadam Hussein evil.
           -SUV good (freedom), conservation evil (letting terrorists win)
           -Border patrol good, immigrants evil.
           Everyone seems to get it these days. But if you need to relearn
           this shit, please report to your nearest Homeland Security Agency
           \_ To be sort of fair, there are plenty of morons who flip several
              of those bits but keep the same binary view.  The actual state
              of the bits is not what makes them morons.
              \_ This is really really cool and well-stated.  Thanks.  -John
        \- you do if you've been indoctrinated into certain belief systems.
           Christians and Muslims tend to be ethnocentrist, whereas
           overly educated academics tend to be relativists. In another
           word religious phreaks are opinionated and academics are
           wishy-washy, and you should not pay attention to either one.
        \_ No, good an evil are subjective.
           \_ To a degree.  -John
2006/7/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43632 Activity:moderate
7/11    Dubya flip-flops.  All DoD personnel are to comply with Geneva
        Conventions for all detainees, including GTMO detainees.
        No mention of CIA policies.
        \_ It's all David Addington's fault.
        \_ Even the Pentagon agrees that the Geneva Convention applies
           to Gitmo detainees:
           http://www.csua.org/u/ge0
           \_ Yes, they "agreed" after the SCOTUS decision
              Please note that "the Pentagon" == Rummy
              (yes, I do know that probably the majority of professional
              military lawyers in the govt thought Dubya's policies were
              illegal)
        \_ Why are you upset that Bush would adhere to a treaty?  You were
           happier when he didn't?
           \_ In order: 1) Happy that he will adhere to a treaty. 2) No.
              3) Dubya's a flip-flopper. Cf. pot, kettle, election 2004.
              \_ 1&2: ok. 3: The policy change seems to be nothing more than
                 PR.  I don't see that the everyday life of the average Gitmo
                 terrorist is going to change at all.  As far as 2004 goes,
                 the USSC already said they can't do tribunals like they want
                 so there's no reason to not say we're now following Geneva.
                 That's a far cry from voting for it before voting against it.
                 \_ there is nothing flip-flopping about voting against a
                    bill after a vote for amendment you sponsored fails.  -tom
                    \_ missing the point.  it wasn't his action that was under
                       assault but his self presentation.  he came off like a
                       dithering clown with that line.  if he was a (R) you
                       wouldn't be all over him for it calling him an idiot?
                       \_ It's impossible to have every sentence you say
                          scrutinized in public without coming off badly
                          sometimes.  Certainly Kerry didn't come off badly
                          based on his statements as often as Bush does.
                          The main thing is that Rove and the dittohead machine
                          seized on that line as a political lever, a way
                          to portray Kerry's subtlety as indecision and
                          Bush's bull-headedness as strength.  And you fell
                          for it.  -tom
                          \_ Comparing to GWB is off topic.  I never said GWB
                             was brilliant.  I said Kerry looked like an idiot.
                             Yes, he was tired, yes he had been long on the
                             campaign trail, yes, what he said was technically
                             correct, and yes he looked like a buffoon.  If he
                             was a (R) would you be here defending him or
                             telling us how often he comes off looking bad
                             compared to some other (D)?  Kerry can look like
                             an idiot all on his own.  Comparing an idiot to a
                             chimp doesn't make the idiot any less an idiot.
                             \_ To answer your spittle-flecked question, no,
                                I do not spend my time pointing out the verbal
                                miscues of Republicans.  There are plenty of
                                substantive issues with what Republicans do;
                                there is no need for gamesmanship.  You seem
                                to be inordinately focused on a single verbal
                                miscue (which you brought up, no one else)
                                with no substantive error behind it.  -tom
        \_ wouldn't it be nice if the 'terrorists' were as nice with the
           US troops they captured, instead of killing, mutilating them and
           leaving the bodies booby-trapped.
           \_ We should not descend to the level of the enemy and still expect
              to hold the moral high ground.  The arguments for why we should
              have nukes and no one else, for example, basically involve
              "because we're better people"  If we stop being better people
              in real, measurable ways...
              \_ PP wasn't suggesting we descend.  Where did you see that?
                 They were suggesting that it would be nice if the terrorists
                 weren't, well, terrorists and didn't mutilate captured US
                 troops and leave their booby trapped corpses to be found.
                 What is so wrong with that?  -!PP
                 \_ You're being obtuse.  -5 points.
                    \_ No, you're being cynical and reading things that
                       aren't there.  I don't need or want your "points".
                 \_ He was implying we should measure ourselves by their
                    actions.  -John
                    \_ I didn't see that at all but I'm a glass half-full
                       person.  I don't look for the bad in others.
                       \_ Then what the fuck are you doing on motd?
        \_ Flip-flops?  You mean obeys order from SCOTUS, right?  A ridiculous
           order BTW, since AFAIK Al Qaeda isn't a signatory to the GC.
           \_ Common Article 3 applies regardless of whether al-Qaeda signed
              or not, and regardless of citizenship or lack thereof
              \_ Not entirely obvious since "terrorists" as we know them
                 today didn't exist at the time the GC was written/signed so
                 they aren't well defined by it.  If it was written today, they
                 would much more likely fall under the spy/saboteur bit where
                 the GC has no issue torturing and executing them.  Granting
                 humane POW style treatment to members of amorphous shadowy
                 organisations who fight by directly targetting civilians does
                 not appear to be the intent of the GC given the way spies and
                 other non-uniformed combatants are treated.
                 \_ I'm trying to not make a strawman of your argument, but
                    as far as I can tell, you are trying to defend torturing
                    people. Why? What do we gain by treating people
                    inhumanely regardless of whether they are in a shadowy
                    amorphous organization or not? I just don't get it.
                    \_ I'm saying what I said.  Don't read between the lines.
                       There is nothing between the lines.  The GC was written
                       before the current concept of "terrorist" existed, thus
                       the best the GC can do is apply the spies/saboteurs
                       line which allows tribunals, death, etc.
                \_ No, the GC does not allow anyone to be tortured. Are you
                   the same person you claimed that the US is not a signatory
                   to the GC? You are a very seriously misinformed person.
                   The 4th Convention of the GC very clearly states that
                   everyone is covered by it, just some have more rights than
                   others. We could certainly execute them, but only after a
                   trial by a competent tribunal. Please read it for yourself
                   so that you can make informed statements about what it says.
                   \_ Key point: some have more rights than others.  Also, I
                      didn't say they weren't covered by it.  I said quite
                      clearly that the closest thing that covers them is
                      spies/saboteurs.  Please don't put words in my mouth.
                      And no, I'm not that other person who said we didn't
                      sign.
                      \_ "..the GC has no issue torturing ... them"
                         This is wrong. Common Article 3 sets minimum standards
                         for everyone caught up in armed conflict, including
                         civilians and irregular forces. It prohibits
                         torture and humiliating or degrading treatment.
        \_ do we have a definition of what "terrorist" is?  It seems that
           we call anyone we don't like "terrorist."
           \_ "If you are not with us, then you are with the terrorists." -GWB
              Does that mean that the military can summarily execute anyone
              who votes Democratic?
              \_ No.  It means that the military can summarily execute anyone
                 who doesn't vote Republican.
           \_ Definition = someone who looks like psb
2006/7/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43600 Activity:nil
7/8     So there is another secret spying program that even the
        Republicans are annoyed about. I wonder what it could be:
        http://www.csua.org/u/gd4
2006/7/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43598 Activity:low
7/8     http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/08/bush.radio.ap
        Bush urges more science research funding. God Bless Science.
        \_ you know, if Bush just let people do their stem cell research, and
           back school that teaches evolution, will help US' science stance
           tremedously... without costing tax payer a single penny.
           \_ It looks like you learned English at the same prep schools as
              Bush.
              \_ Then, you should see my IQ test.  I was labeled menally
                 retarded because IQ test was conducted in English and
                 I don't speak English at the time.  I made it to Berkeley,
                 thousands of immigrants like me never got a chance to
                 even eligible for US system because they were being forced
                 to stay in those retarded courses.
                 \_ A lot of people made it to Berkeley.  More than half made
                    it out "early".  So what?
           \_ Um, Bush isn't preventing anyone from doing stem cell research.
              True, he's not allowing federal funds to pay for research on new
              stem cell lines, but you're already saying that it shouldn't cost
              taxpayers a single penny.  So should he defund the stem cell
              research on existing lines?
              \_ In the context of pp's claim about not costing a single
                 penny, your comments are correct, but I believe you know that
                 by *removing* already budgeted funding for labs that would
                 now be using new lines, Bush is preventing people from doing
                 stem cell research.
2006/7/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:43585 Activity:moderate
7/7     http://csua.org/u/gcf (latimes.com)
        John Yoo goes crazy
        \_ Considering that tribunals have been used in almost all major US
           conflicts (including many with no declaration of war), and that
           the majority blatantly ignored Quirin and Eisentrager, going
           to the absurd extreme of invoking Geneva accords never
           ratified by the Senate, I can only conclude you have no idea
           what you are talking about.
           If, in light of Article III of the Constitution, you celebrate
           the USSSC vacating laws passed by Congress that
               \_ The United States Standards Strategy Committee?  I think you
                  have an extra 'S'
                       \- snakes on the motd
           strip their jurisdiction over the tribunals, I ask why even bother
           with Congress?  Just do away with it and let the USSSC reign
           supreme.
           \_ hey we are supposed to treat our goddamn prisoners the
              way we would want a foreign nation to teach our goddamn
              boys if they are captured.  it's not a hard to understand
              concept.
              \_ I just wish the other side would treat our prisoners the
                 way we treat theirs.  Having your picture taken naked by
                 some skank is a lot better than being mutilated beyond
                 recognition, being decapitated and your body dumped.
              \_ That will make perfect sense when the prisoners are
                 associated with a foreign nation.  The Geneva convention
                 allows for summary execution of fighters not wearing
                 uniforms.
                 \_ No, it does not mention them.  There is a difference.
                    Anyway, according to ppp'er's logic, the POTUS could just
                    use executive power to overrule the SCOTUS.  And that
                    would be a PITA, wouldn't it?  -John
                 \_ Where does it "allow" that? Tell me the exact part where
                    it does, not some nutjob who told you that it does. You
                    are, quite simply, seriously misinformed.
                    \_ They are explicitly not covered in Article 4.  If
                       there is some question as to whether they fit in
                       one of the catagories in Article 4, a tribunal is
                       required.  Therefore, If they are explicity not
                       covered, the convention does not apply.
                       Specifically, they would only conceiveably fit
                       under Aricle 4.2, except that they don't fulfill
                       requirement b or d, and often not a or c.
                       \_ right...and of course MOTD Anonymous Coward is
                          more authoritative than the Supreme Court on
                          this issue.  -tom
                          \_ I'm totally with you.  The USSC never makes an
                             error.  So you were a big supporter of their
                             decision in Bush v. Gore in 2000 then, right?
                          \_ Wow, I didn't know we were no longer allowed
                             to disagree with SCOTUS decisions.  All hail
                             our philosopher king overlords!
                             \_ You're allowed to disagree.  You're also
                                allowed to sound like an idiot.  When you
                                regurgitate dittohead propaganda that
                                is directly contradicted by the decision
                                of the US Supreme Court, which has both
                                infinitely more experience than you and
                                has also studied the specific case in
                                far more depth than you have, you can do
                                both at the same time.  -tom
                                \_ Exactly.  I totally agree with you.  The
                                   USSC is infalible.  Bush v. Gore 2000
                                   was definitely a great ruling.  Glad you're
                                   on the same page.
                                \_ This post is meaningless.  You assume a
                                   lot and know nothing.
                                   \_ Pot kettle I'm rubber and you're
                                      glue...  -John
                       \_ Sorry, just because John Yoo claims that the
                          Geneva Convention says something doesn't make it
                          so. Every other signatory to the Geneva Convention
                          agrees that there are only three categories of
                          states that there are only three categories of
                          people under the GC: 1) combatants 2) POWs and
                          3) civilians. The International Red Cross
                          3) Non-combatants. The International Red Cross
                          agrees. And now the USSC agrees. Your RNC kool-aide
                          is poisoned, you just haven't realized it yet.
                          \_ I've read what it says, I just did again.
                             The fact the some people disagree does not
                             surprise me.  Please explain how people who
                             are explicitly excluded from the convention,
                             are actually covered by it.  I'm not
                             pro-torture, but using the Geneva convention
                             to back up that position is idiotic.
                             \_ Do you mean the 3rd Convention Article 4
                                or the 4th Convention? The 4th Convention
                                Article 4 states:
                                "Persons protected by the Convention are
                                those who, at a given moment and in any manner
                                whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a
                                conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party\
                                to the conflict or Occupying Power of which
                                they are not nationals."
                                I really don't see the exclusion you claim
                                exists in that phrase.
                                or the 4th Convention? Your statements
                                make no sense in regards to the 4th Convention.
                                Go back and reread the *4th*Convention* which
                                is where the USSC drew its claim of jurisdition
                                from.
                                \_ Oops, you're right.  I haven't had time
                                   to get through the whole 4th, but this
                                   is interesting: "Nationals of a State
                                   which is not bound by the Convention
                                   are not protected by it." No sure how
                                   that applies to people who disavow
                                   state.
                                   \_ A good, but dense analysis:
                                      link:www.csua.org/u/gcp
                                      A bunch of the 4th Convention
                                      specifically refers to spies and
                                      saboteurs, the closest approximation
                                      to todays "terrorists."
           \_ freeper nutjob on the case!
                                      \_ Spies and saboteurs belong to a
                                         nation.  They are not uniformed is
                                         the difference between them and a
                                         soldier.  A close approximation is
                                         not the same as "equal to".
                                         \_ Well, I guess that makes it all
                                            right then for the nation that
                                            holds the torch of freedom and
                                            overall higher standards to act
                                            like a bunch of fucking baboons
                                            and thugs.  -John
                                            \_ No one said that.  And we're
                                               talking about legalities here
                                               not the right/wrong morals of
                                               the situation and you know it.
                                               \_ Legalities?  Well, the USSC
                                                  sort of mooted that point
                                                  just now.  -John
                                                  \_ which means we're not
                                                     allowed to discuss it.
           \_ Who told you that the United States has not signed the Geneva
              Convention?
           \_ yoo@law.berkeley.edu send him email and tell him what you think.
           \_ Who told you that Dubya's military tribunals are structured the
              same way as in previous conflicts?
              same way as in previous conflicts?  Who told you that Quirin and
              Eisentrager are relevant?  Who told you that Congress can expect
              unconstitutional laws to be left standing?
              \_ Quirin was decided before the 4th Convention was signed, so
                 it is not relevant.
        \_ And yet after 15 replies no one has recognized that the Court,
           as I said in the first reply, does not, according to DTA,
           even have jurisdiction to hear this case.  That is the
           significance of this ruling, that the USSC directly ignored
           a Constitutionally enabled Congressional statute stripping
           it of jurisdiction.
           \_ Erm, which statute would that be?  Also, as congress has the
              power to create and define all courts INFERIOR to the Supreme
              Court, isn't this moot?
           \_ Who or what is DTA? Which Congressional statute do you claim
              stripped the USSC of jurisdiction? Congress passes
              unconstitutional laws with a distressing frequency, you do
              know that, right?
           \_ When you throw out a TLA for the first time you should
              define it. You are referring to the Detainee Treatment
              Act. The Constitutionality of this act is very much
              in question. In fact, I think the USSC just ruled part
              of it unconstitutional by their ruling, but I will have
              to research it some more. See Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld. I think
              that the DTA is unconstitutional on its face:
              "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be
               suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion
               the public Safety may require it." Art. 1, Sec. 9
2006/6/29-7/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43526 Activity:kinda low
6/29    Supreme Court rules 5-3 that Dubya-installed GTMO military tribunals
        violate Geneva Conventions and U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice
        http://tinyurl.com/fmkxg (findlaw.com)
        \_ Sure, the court interprets laws, but... our new government,
           a different type of executive and the legislature will make
           the law.
        \_ John Yoo must be having a bad day....
           \_ Christopher Yoo is ready to bat
              http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1969&wit_id=5481
              "First, I believe that the use of Presidential signing statements
              as legislative history is inherent in the system of checks and
              balances embodied in our Constitution. Second, I believe that
              Presidential statutory interpretation is also inherent in the
              President's role as Chief Executive. Third, I suggest that
              recognizing Presidential signing statements as legislative
              history would better promote the democratic process."
              http://law.vanderbilt.edu/faculty/yoo.html
              "A History of the Unitary Executive: Executive Branch Practice
              from 1789 to 2005" (Yale University Press, forthcoming 2007)
              \_ This would put an inordinate amount of power to ignore two
                 branches of goverment in the hands of the Executive Branch.
                 I agree that the Pres. needs power to make commentary on
                 legislation passed by Legislative, but to go beyond this
                 to dictating law is dangerous.
                 \_ Note also that the Executive is obliged to execute
                    faithfully the laws of the land.  His signing statements
                    have stated explicitely that he has no intention to do so.
                    People should be fucking pissed.  Some are.  Not enough.
                    \_ Don't worry.  This will all be corrected forthwith as
                       soon as a Democrat is elected as head of the Executive
                       Branch of govt.
                       \_ go look up the phrase, "stroke of the pen, law of the
                          land. cool!" then come back and tell us how dems are
                          morally superior and the great protectors of the
                          constitution.  power corrupts.  period.
                 \_ go look up the phrase, "stroke of the pen, law of the
                    land. cool!"
                    \_ Why do you hate Paul Begala?
                    \_ Go look up Washington Times, UPI, Moonies.
                       The quote is solid, yes; the implication that what Bush
                       has done through Exec Orders and signing statements is
                       somehow mitigated by Clinton's use of same is asinine.
                       \_ Bullshit.  You're putting words in my mouth.  Go
                          see all of 3 lines up where I made it perfectly
                          clear that "power corrupts".  The implication is
                          that this crap has been going on and will always go
                          on so long as there is power to be had.  If you don't
                          want abuses of power then there has to be less power
                          to abuse which means smaller government with less
                          federal control.  Having a Dem in office will change
                          absolutely nothing regarding power abuses.  What is
                          asinine is believing that members of the one party
                          are somehow saintly while the other party is full
                          of devils out to kill and eat people's children.
                          \_ While I will gladly apologize for mischaracter-
                             izing your use of a quote oft-used by GOP flacks
                             to demonize Clinton as an attempt to do just that,
                             I think your solution to shrink government is
                             short-sighted and will cause more problems than
                             it will fix. My original point (the one you
                             replied to with your quote) was that Bush has
                             used Exec Orders and signing statements to
                             place himself above the ability of the other
                             two branches to contradict him. This is much more
                             dangerous than what previous presidents have
                             done.
                             \_ Corruption builds upon itself over time.  One
                                guy gets away with X because we like him or we
                                like X that makes it ok, so the next guy does
                                X+1.  I don't think any one branch should be
                                put above any other beyond what the const. says
                                about checks and balances.  Thus, one abuse of
                                power is no 'better' or worse than any other.
                                It is an abuse of power.  As far as a large or
                                small government goes, the less there is to
                                abuse the less abuse there will be.  That seems
                                obvious to me.  If you're saying that there are
                                other problems a weak federal system would
                                cause, maybe so, that would have to be weighed
                                against the harm a strong federal system
                                causes.
                                \_ The problem with absolutes is that they're
                                   absolutely fallible. While I would agree
                                   with you that 99.9% of power abuses are bad,
                                   I think it's simplistic to say that there
                                   are no degrees of better and worse in
                                   regards to abuses of power. But better and
                                   worse are utterly subjective, so here's a
                                   clarification: Bush's abuses of power have
                                   done more to weaken oversight of the Exec
                                   Branch by the other two Branches than prev.
                                   abuses of power. In my mind, this is worse
                                   than prev. Admins' abuses of power because
                                   it robs the citizenry of a mechanism to
                                   ensure that such abuses are stopped; YMMV.
                                \_ As for smaller/no government (new thread),
                                   sure, the current fed system has problems,
                                   but I don't think those problems outweigh
                                   its benefits. I have yet to see an alterna-
                                   tive suggested that wouldn't lead to either
                                   anarchy, plutocracy, or corporate robber
                                   barons; if you have one that benefits all,
                                   I would be very receptive.
              \_ He will get spanked by the USSC, too.
2006/6/29-7/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43524 Activity:nil
6/29    Hamdank decision big news for Constitution and rule of law, bad news for
        Bush:
        http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/2006/06/hamdan_summary.html
2006/6/19-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43432 Activity:nil
6/19    http://csua.org/u/frw (washingtonpost.com, Dan Froomkin)
        From Ron Suskind's new book titled "The One Percent Doctrine":
        Cheney remarked that America had to deal with a new type of threat --
        what he called a "low-probability, high-impact event" ...
        "If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda
        build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty
        in terms of our response." -VP Cheney
        "The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about
        how quickly [Saddam] can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the
        smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." -Sec State Rice
        "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
        that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
        lethal weapons ever devised." -dubya!
        \_ you're not allowed to post items like this without adding personal
           commentary
        \_ Yeah, the idiots in charge have no idea how to do risk analysis.
           Is that a surprise to you???
        \_ 1% of Pakistani scientists?  dude, there is only *ONE* scientists
           in Pakistan that was actively in the nuclear blackmarket business.
           and USA is BLOCKING IAEA's investigation.
           and USA is BLOCKING IKEA's investigation.
2006/6/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43417 Activity:nil
6/15    How the hell did GWB end up on the cover of Time magazine, twice?
        Is Time a mouthpiece for the administration?
        \_ Yes.  That's why I cancelled my subscription a couple years ago.
        \_ He may be an idiot, but he is the elected leader of the Executive
           branch of the US gov't. It's a wonder it's only happened twice.
        \_ C'mon, even Hitler made the cover at least once.
           \_ And Stalin a number of times
        \_ Because the cover is supposed to be about news makers.  Not about
           your political slant.  Any number of controversial people have been
           on the cover because mostly controversial people are the ones
           making news.  Excuse me, but "duh".  I think Time is a rag but at
           least I understand the point of the cover.  They've done a good job
           with that over the years even (or especially) when choosing
           unlikable people.  I suggest you cancel your sub and move on.
           \_ I'm sorry, but Bush is not controversial.  Pretty much the whole
              world except for 35% of the US thinks he's a total fucking
              idiot.
              \_ Ok, fine, he's an idiot.  Now tell me he's not a news maker.
2006/6/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43416 Activity:nil
6/15    Let's face it. Karl Rove is evil, but is also extremely brilliant.
        What new tricks do you anticipate in the upcoming elections?
        \_ Dubya simultaneously stays the course in Iraq and brings some
           troops back to a heroic homecoming.
           \_ Precisely. He announces that victory is complete and says he'll
              bring home troops. He brings back a minimum number and says the
              rest are merely support and on their way home Real Soon Now.
              At the same time, he paints Dems as cowards. Fox publishes
              retrospective on the war describing the entire venture in rosy
              terms ("sacrifices were made for the greater good," etc.).
              The best Dems can hope for after that is the assassination of
              the Iraqi PM.
              \_ Are you fucking nuts?  Why would you *hope for* the Iraqi
                 PM to be assassinated?  Why would anyone hope for that?
                 \_ Because it's ok if the middle east goes to hell and
                    millions die, as long as the Dems win the next
                    election!
                    \_ And yet, not surprisingly, it would be okay with
                       everyone involved if you were found drowned and
                       bloated, no matter who wins the next election.
                       \_ Oo, touched a nerve, huh? And, not surprisingly,
                          you cannot express yourself in an intelligent
                          manner.  Ook! Trog kill!
                          \_ It's always disappointing to me when this is
                             the best a college educated person can do.
                             -someone else
                 \_ You DON'T. That's the point. The GOP is so good at the
                    PR game that they're going to paint the Dems into a
                    corner where the only way out is if something absolutely
                    terrible happens.
                    \_ Paint into a corner?  What?  So Iraq taking a turn for
                       the worse is good for the party?  The logic behind that
                       is so painfully twisted I'm left speechless.  Nevermind,
                       it's only the motd.  I'm going to lunch.
                       \_ Here's my vain attempt to make this clear to you:
                          Bushco is going to announce victory and bring back
                          a minimum number of troops while promising to bring
                          the rest back at some vague date in the future.
                          He'll ridicule the Dems as cowards who would have
                          pulled out our troops before we were able to complete
                          the mission. Fox will kick into overdrive with
                          retrospectives of how the war _was_ terrible but
                          how it was utterly justified and how the troops
                          who died did so in the line of duty. The networks
                          will miss the point and will argue over the war,
                          but in the past tense, thereby solidifying the
                          idea that it's over. The public, faced with a
                          seemingly successful conclusion to the matter, will
                          go along with the GOP as the party of winners. The
                          Dems will then have no real means of regaining
                          Congress or the White House. The one thing that could
                          derail this plan is if something catastrophic
                          and sensationally public occurred in Iraq, such as
                          the assassination of the Iraqi PM; a public
                          reversal like that would be sufficient to prove
                          that the war is not won in Iraq, thereby short-
                          circuiting the PR war. Read carefully: I'm not saying
                          that anyone should be hoping for the assassination
                          of the Iraqi PM; I'm saying that the GOP is setting
                          up an airtight plan to continue their dominance.
                          \_ ok it does make me feel better that you're not
                             rooting for an assassination.  However, I'm not
                             buying that if there's still say, 30,000 US troops
                             there and bombs are still going off in Baghdad
                             that anyone is going to buy that it's over.  As
                             far as planning for political dominance, that is
                             a political parties reason for being.  I expect
                             both major political groups to spend all their
                             time plotting and planning to achieve and retain
                             power.  WTF else are they good for?  Once you
                             accept that political parties exist you can't
                             fault them for doing what they were designed
                             to do.
                             \_ I would buy this if there were oversight
                                worth a damn keeping them from acting
                                illegally and unethically. The sad truth is
                                (as DeLay mostly worked out) that if you
                                control the means of oversight, you can then
                                overlook your own excesses.
                                \_ I'm a glass half-full kinda guy.  I see
                                   DeLay and Jefferson's fridge stuffing and
                                   the many other times someone in either party
                                   got busted and booted and often jailed as
                                   the system working.  I see the Keating Five
                                   (sleaze bag McCain) getting off as a
                                   failure but that's the exception.  So, I'm
                                   not going for this "the people are stupid"
                                   line and I'm also not buying the "they
                                   always get away with it" thing either.  The
                                   overall record stands against that line of
                                   reasoning.
                          \_ airtight except for the fact that Iraq is still
                             a clusterfuck and it will get worse if we pull
                             our troops out.  That government wouldn't last
                             a week.  -tom
                             \_ And that's why they pull back a token number,
                                declare a public victory, and leave the rest
                                of the troops in place to be withdrawn at some
                                vague future date.
                                \_ People are stupid, but I don't think this
                                   administration has enough credibility left
                                   to turn things around with token gestures.
                                     -tom
                                   \_ I hope you're right.
        \_ Don't confuse "conniving" with "billiant."  -tom
           \_ Brilliantly conniving.  Not all connivers are on the same
              plane as Rove.
           \_ yosafbridge
              \_ Two words: "special hell" :D --michener
                 \_ quiet, this is a movie.
2006/6/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43413 Activity:nil
6/15    Bush pushing giant NAFTA superhighway connecting Mexico and Canada.
        http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?print=yes&id=15497
        \_ I don't see any evidence that Bush has anything to do with this.
           \_ Bush is head of the administration. Of course he has something
              to do with it (even if he was so stupid that somehow he is
              unaware of it).
                \_ Bush doesn't read papers, doesn't asks questions during
                   staff meetings and tries to spend as much time as possible
                   clearing brush on his ranch....
              \_ This appears to be the work of a private corporation.
2006/6/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43411 Activity:nil
6/15    Victories in Iraq, Bush Approval Up
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199668,00.html
        \_ In other news, Fox is the mouthpiece for the administration.
2006/6/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43389 Activity:nil
6/14    Bush resume: http://www.matrixmasters.com/world/usnews/bushresume.html
2006/6/14-17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43385 Activity:nil
6/14    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/14/bush.newser
        Bush says something's different in Iraq! Watch out you disorganized
        Democrats without a unified voice, the Republicans are fighting back.
        The point is you don't have to change anything to get people to
        like you. You just need to tell people what they want to hear,
        and you say it with confidence. You lost 2000 and 2004 because you
        failed to understand how to win the heart of the people. Let's
        summarize your lessons: 1) don't change anything 2) if you did
        something bad, ignore it 3) cover up 2 by saying something clever
        or something new, tell people what they want to hear 4) say it with
        optimism, enthusiasm, smile, and don't repeatedly sigh like Al Gore.
        Good luck in November.
        \_ Evil will always win, because good is stupid.
           \_ "Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb."
               - Dark Helmet
           \_ Even if good = dumb, dumb != good.  The fact that the Dems
              are dumb does not imply that they are good.
              \_ Wingnut Troll Alert!  Wingnut Troll Alert!
                 \_ Nice of you to announce yourself.  Did you have
                    something to say as well?
                    \_ Perhaps we should ship you back to texas with your
                       little wingnut friends (or perhaps get williamc to
                       pay for your deporatation to canada).
                       \_ It's always disappointing to me when this is the
                          best a college educated person can do. -someone else
                          \_ It's always disappointing to me when this is
                             the best a college educated person can
                             do. -someone else
                          \_ It's always disappointing to me when this is the
                             best a college educated person can do.
                             -someone else
        \_ Actually they won both those elections but were defrauded. But
           to really win people's hearts, you need to be an actor above all.
           Just really look, sound, and act presidential, so women feel
           good just looking at you. For the issues, have analysts design
           something as middle-of-the-road as possible. Talk as if you're
           mostly conservative, but still support all the big government
           programs even as you badmouth big government and say you won't
           raise taxes. Actually better promise to cut some taxes too,
           and also promise to cut the deficit. Talk about families and
           how important they are, because most people are part of families
           and will appreciate your understanding. Have really top shelf
           speechwriters. Hope the other guy says something dumb or does
           a Howard Dean. Humor is good, but spontaneous is too dangerous:
           memorize some humor based on projected common public scenarios.
           \_ Hillary?  Is that you?
           \_ Wow, still bringing up the election fraud canard?  Way to
              not let facts get in the way of your beliefs.
              \_ Is it really a canard?  I think there's enough circumstantial
                 evidence to strongly implicate Republicans strategists
                 with deliberately attempting to prevent blocks of people
                 from voting who were not inclined to vote Republicans,
                 be they black people or felons who have done their time.
                 It might not be real fraud, but it's pretty devious and
                 infuriating when it was such a close election, and now
                 the administration in power is busy attempting to make
                 the entire world loathe and despise us.  Thanks guys!
                 \_ Ok so it wasn't really fraud but now it is fraud-lite?
                    If you want to be that 'nuanced' about it, you're opening
                    a huge can of worms.  Let's start with slashing the tires
                    on the (R) get-out-the-vote vans.  What was that?  Just
                    \_ 5 kids in Milwaukee vs. RNC backed operatives and
                       elected officials in NH, NV, OH, FL, etc dumping
                       D voter registrations, jamming DNC GOTV phone lines,
                       lowballing turnout estimates in highly D areas leading
                       to 8 hour lines, "cleansing" voter roles, etc.
                    \_ I don't think that happened on a very wide scale.
                       The organized effort to hire companies to
                       analyze the voting rolls for ineligible voters,
                       removing those people from the rolls with no
                       fact checking, was on a much wider scale, and in
                       several states.  Who cares about get-out
                       the-vote vans.
                    some isolated little prank?  How about all the college
                    students double (and more) voting?  How about the fact
                    that without an ID system anyone, citizen or not, can
                    \_ Have you ever voted?  It doesn't work that way.
                       Oh sanchez now, good one.
                       \_ I've never been asked for my ID and I vote in
                          every election. They just ask me my name and
                          address.
                    vote?  Sanchez got in fair n square?  You really don't
                    want to walk down this path.
2006/6/14-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43383 Activity:nil
6/14    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/13/webb.primary.ap
        Republican disgised as a Democrat wins. Watch out November.
        \_ talking about disgise.  You should really go to Taiwan and
           take a look.  Candidates of DPP are removing the DPP party logos,
           many of them are getting rid of the party-color of green in
           their campaign banners, posters, and ads.  Very interesting.
           \- Yeah, it's pretty clever how the RNC sent him "deep undercover"
              by having him publicly denounce the Iraq war and mock W's
              Vietnam War "service". This was clearly written by KROVE
              and just signed by JWEBB ...
                  Recent statements defending Bush claim that the
                  National Guard was not a haven for those who wished
                  to avoid Vietnam; but it clearly was ... Bush used
                  his father's political influence to move past many
                  on the Texas Guard's waiting list ... Bush arguably
                  has committed the greatest strategic blunder in
                  modern memory ... The reckless course that Bush and
                  his advisers have set will affect the economic and
                  military energy of our nation for decades. It is
                  only the tactical competence of our military that,
                  to this point, has protected him from the harsh
                  judgment that he deserves ... At the same time,
                  those around Bush, many of whom came of age during
                  Vietnam and almost none of whom served, have
                  attempted to assassinate the character and insult
                  the patriotism of anyone who disagrees with
                  them. Some have impugned the culture, history and
                  integrity of entire nations, particularly in Europe,
                  that have been our country's great friends for
                  generations and, in some cases, for centuries. Bush
                  has yet to fire a single person responsible for this
                  strategy. Nor has he reined in those who have made
                  irresponsible comments while claiming to represent
                  his administration. One only can conclude that he
                  agrees with both their methods and their message.
                                   --James Webb, Feb. 2004.
2006/6/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43371 Activity:nil
6/13    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/13/rove.cia
        Rove won't be charged in CIA leak case
        http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/12/iraq.contractors
        Iraq contractors make billions on the front line
        Also on the news Bush visits Iraq and his approval rating
        rebounds. Rove is great and November is looking great!
        \_ approval rating rebounds?  where?
        \_ Seconded. Read:
           http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060613/ts_usatoday/pollseesaboostforbushiraqwar
           Conservatives rule while Liburals drool!
           \_ and thus the deep dissatisfaction of the liberals/geeks with
              the rule of the neocons/jocks.
              \_ hey, way to go with the labels and stereotyping.
        \_ If 35 percent is a rebound you are hurting for good news
           \_ esp when other polls went down in the same period.
2006/6/12-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43363 Activity:nil
6/12    Dear Mr. President, you're a strong believer of the free market force
        and a smaller government. Why has the size of our government ballooned
        to levels we've never seen before? Why is there a strong reliance on
        government contracts in Iraq instead of the free market "invisible
        hand"? Where was the "invisible hand" during the Enron scam? Lastly,
        your tax-cutting trickle-down economy has worked out well for people
        making well over 100K, but when will the money finally trickle
        down to the poor people? If you don't believe in protectionism,
        wouldn't the wealth trickle down to India and China where they'll
        get the most from your trickle-down economy?
        \_ You've started with the wrong assumptions.  -tom
           \_ First off, that the president reads the motd.
              \_ I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to
                 have a draft! -Dubya
        \_ Bush isn't in favor of small governments or free markets so the
           rest of your trollish letter is off base.
2006/6/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:43351 Activity:nil
6/11    US military commander calls Gitmo suicides "act of war"
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm
        \_ General Jack Ripper is alive and well.
        \_ When I first read that, I thought it was from the Onion.
        \_ yes, act of war... let's kill them... wait... they already died.
        \_ 'The US military said the men's bodies were being treated "with the
           utmost respect".'  Oh good.  As long as we treat _dead_ bodies at
           Gitmo w/ respect.
2006/6/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43338 Activity:nil
6/9     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/09/ap/strange/mainD8I4E19G0.shtml
        A left-wing nut mails shit (yes, feces) to a Republican candidate.
        Would you do the same thing to GWB? Vote now:
        yes: .
        no: .
        \_ I submit that if you think that's a reasonable thing to do,
           there's is something wrong with you.
2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43312 Activity:nil
6/7     Today I heard the Impeach Bush radio commercial for the very first
        time. I was elated. Impeach Bush!
        \_ If you impeach Bush, don't you get Cheney as president then?
           That doesn't seem like a good trade off.
           \_ Yes, I don't get it either.  If there's an impeachment effort,
              it should be for both the POTUS and VP, just like Lay and
              Skilling of Enron.  Condi isn't the best option, but hey, I'll
              settle.
2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43305 Activity:nil
6/7     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060607/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
        Bush says you must "learn values and history and language of
        America". I say to Bush, maybe you should learn something about
        world history, public speech, diplomacy, and anger management
        before telling other people what to do.
        \_ Does anyone else find it disturbing that the Office of Citizenship
           is being established under the Department of Homeland Security?
           \_ Nein, it makes perfekt sense to me.
        \_ Bush should, yes, maybe.  What's wrong about forcing immigrants
           and candidates for citizenship to adopt the basic values of their
           host countries?  Most European states have long adopted a really
           fuzzy and tolerant attitude towards immigrants' cultures, and it's
           a fucking catastrophe, particularly with Eastern European, African
           and many muslim arrivals--the attitude towards "oh we must
           understand and acknowledge them" is changing, fast, in a lot of
           places.  You're talking about two different things.  -John
           \_ Why must this be a case of "understand and acknowledge" vs.
              "expect them to conform to the laws and civics of our country"?
              When did the two become incompatible?
              \_ OK, maybe my post was poorly worded--most European countries
                 (except maybe for the UK and France) have less of a melting
                 pot tradition than the US, even if the extent of immigrants'
                 readiness to mix in the US is often exagerrated.  There's
                 always been a lot of insecurity of how to deal with new
                 immigrants, with the result that many governments have bent
                 over backwards to try and accommodate and tolerate the quirks
                 of immigrants from countries with social traditions
                 diametrically opposed to what many consider the enlightened
                 Western ideal.  This has resulted in a marked unwillingness on
                 the part of many immigrants to "conform to the laws and
                 civics", as you astutely put it--forced marriages, ethnic
                 clashes and honor killings are some of the examples of results
                 of this kid-glove approach.  -John
                 \_ Right on. Where my hackles get raised is when "conform to
                    the laws and civics" is interpreted to mean "learn English
                    and become Christian or get out."
                    \_ Maybe not become Christian, but they should learn
                       English. It is the official language. It's not too
                       much to ask. In reality, I suspect that the vast
                       majority of immigrants *do* learn at least some
                       English. What pisses me off is when I go somewhere
                       and the signs are not in English. If you want
                       Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs then fine,
                       but make sure to have English ones, too.
                       \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
                       \_ Actually, it's not the official language -- that's
                          kind of the center of the debate.
                          \_ Oh come on. English is the official language.
                             It's what our effing Constitution was written
                             in. We don't need some proclamation for it
                             to be clear what the official language is.
                             \_ Words mean something, young padawan.
                                \_ Right, which is why all the words on
                                   highway signs are in English, for
                                   instance. Because there's no official
                                   language.
                                   \_ I think you're confused about what
                                      'official' means in this context.  Yes,
                                      signs are in english -- but that's not
                                      the same as mandating english from
                                      a legal standpoint (official government
                                      documents, etc).  Perhaps The One True
                                      PSB can elucidate if he's interested --
                                      but IIRC, India has actually mandated
                                      english as its official language.
                                      \_ What would be the difference if
                                         it was mandated? Everything is in
                                         English already. It would just be
                                         a rubber stamp.
                                         \_ Not strictly true - I *believe*
                                            most official government
                                            documents can be obtained in
                                            other languages in this
                                            country.  It would be a pretty
                                            big difference if someone that
                                            couldn't speak english and was
                                            unable to read them had no
                                            participatory recourse.  (grain
                                            of salt here -- I'm dredging
                                            this up from my first or second
                                            year studies at Ma Berkeley, so
                                            I could be making this all up).
                                            \_ Not all documents are and
                                               most (all?) government
                                               proceedings are conducted
                                               in English. If English was
                                               not "official" then you might
                                               see official documents printed
                                               in other languages, but not in
                                               English. That will never happen,
                                               because English is unofficially
                                               official already.
                                               \_ Um.  You really are just
                                                  stupid, aren't you.  Do you
                                                  know how many translators
                                                  are employed by the
                                                  government?  Do you know
                                                  how many state and local
                                                  government offices, hospitals,
                                                  etc have staffing requirements
                                                  to make sure local populations
                                                  can be served sufficiently
                                                  in their own language.  You
                                                  don't know what you're
                                                  rambling about.  Shut the fuck
                                                  up.
                                                  \_ Will we see a day
                                                     when there are *ENGLISH*
                                                     translators? No, we
                                                     won't. So you STFU.
           You need to take a fucking civics class.  You and your axe _/
           to grind belong somewhere in 19th century New York.  To declare
           English "official" would mean exactly what you're suggesting below,
           which has no bearing on reality.  Making English official would
           mean there would be no burden on the government to make
           accommodations for those who live here, even if born here (read
           citizens), who don't speak English.  An obstacle like this against
           civic participation is anti-democratic.  As I say, it is a burden
           on government, and as such is heavier where there are a larger
           spectrum of languages spoken and/or larger populations of other-
           language speakers (read large cities).  But it is a burden they
           are required to bear.  Just because english is most common does
           not in any way make it "official".  And your complaint about
           "Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs" is so insanely laughable,
           you don't deserve any of my time after this.  Fuck you.
           \_ There should be no burden on government to make accomodations.
              It should be entirely an option. You think it's okay if
              a largely Hispanic (for example) school district decides to
              teach Spanish as the only language?! I don't think that's
              okay at all! What if they are a small community of Maoris?
              Can they teach their native language exclusively with
              government money? I don't see where that does anyone a
              service. Schools should teach English, signs should be in
              English, government forms should be in English, and so on.
              We are not like Canada where everything is in French and
              English both. English is the de facto language *ALREADY*.
              What is 'making it official' going to change? Do you really
              want your kids learning Te Reo Maori in school instead of
              English? If you have lots of Spanish (or Chinese or whatever)
              speakers then make that language official *TOO*  and teach
              them all by mandate in school, but English *must be* an official
              language in this country. Period.
           \_ My response got deleted, so I will summarize. You think it's
              okay for a town of largely Maori immigrants to teach Te Reo Maori
              (only) in their school district?! I don't and if I moved
              into that town I would sue. English needs to be an official
              language. You can argue that their should to be several official
              languages (Spanish?) but then *everything* must be mandated to
              be in Spanish also, including education, street signs, and
              all. You can't pick and choose which languages to translate while
              also denying English as the unofficial official language.
              English is basically the official language and anything else
              is done as a courtesy.
                                               \_ Hmm, I'm not sure I see what
                                                  you're getting at, exactly.
                                                  My point is if you're an
                                                  immigrant with no english
                                                  skills, being unable to get
                                                  government documents in
                                                  english is exclusionary,
                                                  and *arguably* counter to
                                                  some of the principles of
                                                  our country.  I'd be glad
                                                  chat about this more offline
                                                  if you're interested -- motd
                                                  is already too bandwidthy,
                                                  and I'm basically an
                                                  ignorant idiot and would
                                                  prefer not to add to the
                                                  noise....    -mice
                                                  \_ We aren't going to
                                                     produce translations for
                                                     every language in the
                                                     world. However, we
                                                     always make sure to
                                                     produce an English
                                                     version, which is often
                                                     the sole version. If
                                                     you live here you
                                                     pretty much *have* to
                                                     learn English as it is.
                                                     It's what you/your kids
                                                     will be taught in school,
                                                     what the signs will be
                                                     written in, and so on.
                                                     English can be the
                                                     official language w/o
                                                     isolating immigrants.
                                                     We can still produce
                                                     translations based on
                                                     demand. However, if,
                                                     say, Spanish was official
                                                     then we would *HAVE* to.
                                                     As it is, I claim that
                                                     English is already official
                                                     because such things are
                                                     *already* in English.
                                                     \_ *shrug*  Like I said -
                                                        email me if you want
                                                        talk about this more.
                                                                  -mice
2006/6/2-4 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43258 Activity:nil
6/1     http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzZkNDU5MmViNzVjNzkzMDE3NzNlN2MyZjRjYTk4YjE=
        Top conservative songs
        \_ Wow. Unintentional comedy at its finest.
        \_ Hilfuckingarious!  On a related vein, have you heard Toby Keith's
           "The Taliban Song"?  I almost shat myself.
           \_ The national review is great at making liberals angry
              with their rhetoric.  Unfortunately if you ignore them,
              they don't go away, they're still there next year.
2006/6/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43242 Activity:nil
6/1     http://dubaipride.blogspot.com
        Bush is GAY!
2006/5/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43229 Activity:nil
5/30    So when do we see http://cnn.com and foxnews.cm headlining the Treasury
        Secretary pick?  It's already leading on washpost/nytimes/latimes.com.
        I guess Dubya doesn't want there to be news of the current Treasury
        guy resigning - in the face of the stock market taking a dump on news
        of falling consumer confidence and rising oil prices.  Also, the new
        guy is as well-heeled as can be, Goldman-Sachs CEO?
        Optimistically, he will be competent as hell, but his nomination can
        very well piss off all the have-nots.
2006/5/30-6/3 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43221 Activity:nil
5/30    Bush: World record perch catcher, liar, or really, really not the
        kind of guy you want to go fishing with?
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/05/bush-tells-german-paper-he-caught.html
        \_ Obviously, you don't realize that Bush cured blindness and
           other things. People in certain parts of the country worship
           him like the next Messiah.
           http://www.buzzflash.com/mailbag/2002/11/14_Bush_Messiah.jpg
        \_ Or option 4, something translated incorrectly from the original
           report in German.
           \_ Very plausible. The words for "bass" and "perch" are close
              in German.
              \_ queuing German John to confirm this.
                 \_ dumme scheishe, German John isn't a real German and his
                    German is probably not even that good.
                 \_ Erm, I have no clue, I prefer tuna.  -John
2006/5/26-31 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43197 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
5/26    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/54921_energy18.shtml
        "Enron has been the largest single doner to GWB"
        Is this really true? I thought Walmart was.
        \_ Kenny who?
2006/5/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43177 Activity:nil
5/24    Lou Dobbs:  Bush, Congress tell working folks to go to hell
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1637455/posts
        "I don't know whether Karl Rove is President Bush's Grigori Potemkin
        or whether George Bush has created Potemkin villages all by himself."
2006/5/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43175 Activity:nil
5/23    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1637208/posts
        Dennis Hastert tells Dubya FBI raid on Democrat House member may have
        been unconstitutional
        \_ I'm sure that's going to keep Abu Gonzalez and Dubya up at night.
2006/5/23-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43167 Activity:nil
5/23    Courtesy of Jamie 'the CIA/FBI wall' Gorelick and
        Franklin Raines: Enron style accounting by Democratic appointies.
        Report: Fannie Mae Manipulated Accounting
        http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060523/fannie_mae.html?.v=7
        http://csua.org/u/fys (Wash Post)
2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:43142 Activity:nil
5/22    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060522/od_nm/leisure_nixon_odd_dc
        First they made an opera called Nixon in China. Maybe we'll see
        an opera called Bush in Iraq in the future. One can only hope.
        \_ Nixon ineptly invaded China on false pretenses leading to
           civil war and shattering what little stability was left in
           the region?  I need to keep up on my history!
           \- ObTrivia: the "they" that did the NIXON IN CHINA opera is
              composer JOHN ADAMS, who happens to live in BERKELEY. He is
              also the fellow that did the DOCTOR ATOMIC opera about fmr
              UCB Physics Prof ROPPENHEIMER, which you may have heard about
              last year. ROPPHENHEIMER's brother FOPPENHEIMER is the "they"
              behind the EXPLORATORIUM who both went to the same high school
              in NYC as my friend whose bday is today. ok tnx.
2006/5/17-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Finance/Investment] UID:43084 Activity:nil
5/17    Case against Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay of Enron goes to jury.
        Predictions?  Skilling faces 31 counts, Lay faces 7, including
        securities and wire fraud (fraudulent SEC reports and financial
        constructs, lying to analysts and employees about health of company),
        insider trading (Skilling only, selling $62.6 million in shares after
        he quit when he allegedly knew it was a house of cards), and false
        statements (to Big5 companies and banks).
        http://csua.org/u/fw4 (usatoday.com)
        \_ chance of a Bush pardon?
           \_ With extremely low approval ratings and the midterm elections
              coming up, is he really that dumb?  Wait, don't answer that.
              \_ But..but approval polls *have no relevance whatsoever*!
                 MOTD told me so!  Waaahhh!
           \_ I'll be $10 against a Bush pardon, anyone wanna take it?
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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