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2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2003/12/2 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11268 Activity:nil
12/1    Donald Rumsfeld wins Foot In Mouth Award:
        http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/footinmouth.html
        \_ "I believe that gay marriage should be between a
            man and a woman." - Arnold Schwarzenegger
        \_ George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language," 1946:
           http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
        \_ Which is bizarre, because his quote makes perfect sense.
           \_ It's a logical tautology:
              Things we know we don't know = Everything - Things we know
              In a logical sense, he's saying we are aware of fewer ignorances
              than we have, which would not be the case if we knew everything
              we know, got it? ;-)
              \_ You must not see some of the questions he gets from reporters.
                 Sometimes he has to talk real slow, with short words.
              \_ Bzzzt.  Things we know we know.
                         Things we don't know that we know.
                         Things we know we don't know.
                         Things we don't know that we don't know.
           \_ I knew someone would say this.  Typical computer people.  Just
              because it makes logical sense, doesn't mean that its clear
              English.  Its very deserving of the award, which is meant to
              encourage clear public speaking.  I bet you think Stroustrup is
              a well written piece of literature.
              \_ Okay, so what was not clear about it? I fully understood the
                 intent of the statement the first time I read it with little
                 difficultly.
                 \_ Forest.  Trees.  Try the Orwell article, it might make
                    things a teensy bit more clear to you.
                    \_ Non. Sequitor. I read the Orwell article. Did you?
                       There's nothing like that at all in what Rumsfeld said.
                       The only thing I see at all that MAY confuse someone is
                       that the words "unknown" and "known" are used many times
              \_ I'd like to see a transcript of the whole interview.  He
                 sometimes says inane things to point out the inanity of the
                 questions he gets.
                 \_ Oh I see, so sounding inarticulate is like a Jedi Mind
                    Trick?
                    \_ No it's more like: "look you dumb asses, maybe if I talk
                       to you like you're a 3-year-old you'll understand"
                       \_ So wait.  I have to be a 3 year old to understand
                          what Rummy is saying here?  Are you a 3 year old?
                          \_ Bush Good, Saddam Bad.
                             America Strong, Terrorists Weak.
                          \_ No you moron.  It makes perfect sense, but normally
                             you wouldn't be so verbose in pointing it out.  I'd
                             like to see the transcript because it's most likely
                             he already answered the question several times and
                             was spelling out the obvious when it was clear that
                             the reporters were idiots.
2003/11/26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11231 Activity:nil
11/25   Bush family values:
        http://csua.org/u/53o
        \_ You upset that he's more successful than you'll ever be or that he
           got laid with numerous h0t az14n chicks while doing it?  Jealousy
           is so ugly.
2003/11/22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11187 Activity:nil 53%like:11481 53%like:29667
11/21   Congress voting on Anti-spam:
        http://news.com.com/2100-1024_3-5110622.html?tag=nefd_top
2003/11/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11182 Activity:nil
11/21   Latest time/cnn poll: bush would crush any of the democrats if the
        election were held today.
        \_ Which is nothing more than a function of name recognition.
           Bill Clinton was in almost identical position in 1992.
           \_ Ross Perot isn't running this time around.
2003/11/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11175 Activity:low
11/21   America vs. the World:
        http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2189509
        \_ Did this strike anyone else as somewhat double-speakish?  I would
           hardly classify the current state of American affairs as a vibrant
           democracy.  You can't speak out against the White House without them
           outing your undercover wife, the newspapers are afraid to ask tough
           questions because they'll be sent to the back of the pressroom and
           ignored...
           \_ I haven't seen/heard of any such problems. The papers are full
              of anti-White House/Bush articles as is tv.
              \_ but radio is full of rush limbaugh clones so we should censor
                 radio and get a tax payer funded left wing station going.  oh
                 wait, we already have npr.  nevermind!
                 \_ NPR gets around 2% of its funding from the government.
                    \_ They're cronies of the left anyway.
           \_ Hey is there any proof of the wife thing?
              \_ There is proof that the identity of an undercover agent
                 WAS leaked by at least one member of Whitehouse staff.
                 Draw your own conclusions from there.
                 \_ Ok, what proof?  Incidentally, the wife in question is
                    decidedly NOT an undercover agent.  Read the news.
                    \_ Sigh...must the motd continually revisit the same
                       endless arguments over and over again?
                       \_ as long as you keep repeating lies, yes.
                       \_ IFILE!
                          \_ no, ED!
        \_ Wasn't digging up yer past the Clinton method of
           sqelching "Bimbo Eruptions?"
2003/11/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11114 Activity:kinda low
11/17   http://csua.org/u/50w
        "The Idiot's Guide to Great Britain". This is hilarious.
        \_ i don't think it's funny.  and i really hate bush.
                \_ just out of curiousity, do you personally know of anyone
                   who likes Bush, supports his policies, and want him to
                   be re-elected again? I know many many people and I don't
                   know of anyone who likes him. Maybe it's a California
                   thing or something but I'm just curious.
                   \_ He lost CA in 2000 by a few percent.  It isn't Bush, it
                      is the people you know.  When you're a carpenter and you
                      hang out with other carpenters and don't do anything but
                      work wood and go to carpenter meetings, you'll think
                      everyone is a carpenter even though you know many many
                      carpenters.
                      \_ 12 is more than "a few." Bush only got 41% statewide.
                         But is it probably more a matter of which county you
                         are in. In Alameda County Bush got 24%, in SF even
                         less.
                         \_ I didn't have the numbers handy.  12.  That's fine.
                            With 41% that means 4 of your 10 friends should be
                            Bush supporters.  If all your friends are in
                            Alameda then 1 in 4 should be.  You're a carpenter.
                            It's ok.  Just keep going to the carpenter union
                            meetings and working wood.  Or maybe your
                            \_ Huh huh. You told him to keep working wood.
                               - Butthead
                            conservative friends don't tell you because they
                            don't want to hear you go off on how stupid/evil/
                            whatever Bush is because politics can kill friend-
                            ships and they value your friendship more than your
                            politics.  I gently and politely correct my leftist
                            friends when they start frothing but they all think
                            I'm a socialist just like them.  I don't want to
                            lose them as friends even if they're confused and
                            ignorant about the world in some ways.
        \_ Concept: 8.5 / Execution: 2
        \_ Pretty second-rate humor.  -John
        \_ If you're going to make a top-ten list, the number one rule is:
                BE FUNNY!
           This isn't.  Concept: 3.0 because it's so done.  Execution: 1 only
           because he actually gets #9 correct and #3 is so-so for those who
           give a shit about "The Royals".
2003/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11100 Activity:nil
11/16   BushCo lies are finally catching up to them. Americans are slow
        but not *that* slow:
        http://csua.org/u/50k
2003/11/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11077 Activity:moderate
11/14   Posted on slashdot yesterday, Gore Vidal interview.
        http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/52/features-cooper.php
        \_ [Franklin:] I am in favor of this Constitution, as flawed as it is,
           because we need good government and we need it fast.  But then,
           Franklin said, it will fail, as all such constitutions have in
           the past, because of the essential corruption of the people. He
           pointed his finger at all the American people. And when the people
           become so corrupt, he said, we will find it is not a republic that
           they want but rather despotism  government suitable for such a
           people.
           \_ In other words, we get the government we deserve.
2003/11/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11067 Activity:kinda low
11/13   The other day on the motd, I said that there are only like 200
        guerillas in Iraq.  Now, the Bush administration is saying that it's
        like 5000.  Guess I am wrong.  Sorry for being a moron.
        \_ Bastard piece of shit.  *I* said it was 200-300 and the Bush admin
           today said it's more like 3000.  Do you have to lie while being an
           asshole?  I'd rather be wrong than a liar like you.  And I didn't
           get my 200-300 from the Bush admin.  It was my own guess for the
           number in the Sunni triangle area, not the entire country.
        \_ I am sorry you believe what Bush tells you, too. But thanks for
           the apology.
           \_ Who do you think you are to not believe what our president
              tells us?  He is a most honest man.  Besides, he got the
              data from the most seniorest American commander in the middle
              east.  Even Christian lass Condoleeza Rice agreed.  She never
              lies.  Have you even been to Iraq?
              tells us?  He is a most honest man.  Besides, he got it from
              the most seniorest American commander in the middle east.
              Even Christian Condoleeza Rice agreed.  She never lies.
              Have you even been to Iraq?
2003/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11059 Activity:high
11/13   Does anyone have any information on these 4 judicial court nominees?
        \_ sure.  what do you want to know, unless you're being
           a troll I have decided
           Pickering is not completely totally evil. - danh
           \_ Any urls on Pickering?
              \_ here's one from the Village Voice where Pickering
                 does something that I would consider way out of character
                 for a member of the Federalist Society:
                 http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0345/hentoff.php - danh
        \_ how about the 63 the little republican bitches blocked during
           the Clinton years?   168 nominees have been passed.  this is
           absurd.
           \_ Were they passed from committee to the floor?  Were they voted up
              or down?
              \_ See, these are things you could verify for yourself, but
                 instead you swallow the GOP claims whole and try to pick
                 apart statements to the contrary.  in '99-00 60% of the
                 Clinton nominees to appeals court did not receive the
                 "up or down vote" that the GOP is whining about now.
                 \_ What was the decision of the judicial committee?  The
                    current committee can't send them to the floor for a vote
                    because of the filibuster threats, even if the committee
                    chose to.
                    \_ What a strange topsy-turvy Alice-In-Wonderland view
                       of reality.
                       \_ How so?  You're simply ignorant of how our federal
                          government works.  It is standard practice to
                          not bring up anything for a vote until it is known
                          that there is support for it to pass.  Where "it"
                          is any bills, nomination, or anything else.  It is
                          very rare for a bill to be voted on without everyone
                          knowing in advance that it will be passed.
                          \_ The Republicans who controlled the committee
                             refused to even hear the nominees:
                             http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200307/070903.html
                             \_ Which has nothing to do with the current issue
                                about whether the above person has an alice
                                in wonderland view or not.
        \_ The NAACP on Carolyn Kuhl:
           http://www.naacp.org/work/washington_bureau/Kuhl081303.shtml
           People for the American Way on Caroline Kuhl:
           http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=9734
           The NAACP on Priscilla Owen:
           http://www.naacp.org/work/washington_bureau/PriscillaOwen.pdf
           The Independent Judiciary on Priscilla Owen:
           link:csua.org/u/4zp (PDF)
           \_ The National Assocation For The Advancement of Left Wing
              Colored People?
              \_ For a strict constructionist, you take a lot of liberties
                 in adding a letter to that acronym.
                 \_ Just calling it like I see it.  Why is an .org that says
                    it is for the advancement of black people opposed to a
                    black person advancing?  Only because she's not left wing.
                    I take no liberties.
                    \_ Bzzt.  Because she's against the advancement of
                       colored people when those colored people are not her.
                       You can't promote an Uncle Tom and then say you're
                       advancing the cause of black people.
                       \_ You don't know shit about her background, do you?
                          Come back after reading her bio.   I'm not going to
                          spoon feed you the reader's digest version.
        \_ My fiancee is an attorney, has appeared in front of Judge Kuhl,
           and thinks she's pretty much horrible ... ideology aside (she's
           very right wing), my fiancee felt she doesn't follow the law.
           \_ Very few judges follow the law and there's little recourse
              in most cases starting from small claims and family court all
              the way up.  A judge "not following the law" is hardly a
              reason to not promote a judge in this country.  If that was the
              standard we'd have to start all over.  Your fiancee is rather
              naive for a lawyer.  She must be quite young.  Don't worry,
              though, she'll be corrupt and bitter soon enough.
              \_ There's following the letter of the law and following the
                 spirit of the law, and then there's not following the law
                 at all.  The first two are highly debated, but the third is
                 universally recognised as being wrong.  Kuhl has a tendency
                 to go with her personal belief even when they conflict with
                 the latter _and_ spirit of the law.
                 \_ There's no difference between a judge following what they
                    decide is the spirit of the law and doing whatever the
                    hell they please.  They're either following the law or not
                    and as soon as it's ok to do something other than strictly
                    adhere to the law as written, the show is over, anything
                    goes.  It is intellectually dishonest to claim you want
                    judges to follow the law, kind of, sort of, sometimes.
                    \_ Thank you, strict constructionist.  According to your
                       view of the law, it is illegal to wink at an
                       unacquainted female in Ottumwa, Iowa, and anyone
                       caught doing so must be prosecuted to the full extent
                       of the law, despite the fact that modern morality
                       significantly differs from the morality prevalent at
                       the time the legislation was enacted.  The purpose of
                       the judicial branch is to add the element of human
                       wisdom to the process of the law.  Without loose
                       interpretation, the law is merely code, and the
                       executive branch has all the power.
                       \_ No, enforcement and the decision to prosecute lay
                          this other person we call "the prosecutor".  In some
                          places we call this person "the district attorney".
                          Yes, this will be on your Basic Civics 1A quiz at
                          the end of the week.
           \_ Following the law is secondary.  Bush appointees must be
              ideologically pure.  The right-wing is terrified of another
              Souter.
              \_ No we just want judges to follow the law.  So you attack us
                 for being strict constructionists and then you attack us for
                 not wanting to follow the law at all.  You can't get it both
                 ways without looking like an idiot.
                 \_ Like Roy Moore, right: that conservative who was just
                    removed from the Alabama Supreme Court for acting like
                    an Anarchist?
                    \_ try upholding Alabama Constitution, which mentions
                       God.  They take on oath.
                       \_ He also has to uphold the U.S. Constitution, and the
                          U.S. Constitution takes precedence over state ones.
                          \_ Where in the USC does it say he can't have the
                             10 commandments in a public space?  I'm a
                             strict atheist (none of that agnostic weenie
                             stuff for me) and I've got no problem with it.
                             The USC says no such thing.  In God We Trust.
                             \_ He was ordered by a higher court to remove
                                it and refused to. That is not called
                                enforcing the law, that is called breaking it.
                                \_ Uh oh, looks like a debate bait n switch!
                                   So you agree the USC doesn't say any such
                                   thing.  Now let's address your new point.
                                   He has the right to refuse.  He has the
                                   right to appeal.  He has the right to
                                   protest and engage in an act of civil
                                   disobedience.  This is still a free
                                   country.  The word of a higher court, even
                                   the highest court is not always the
                                   correct decision.  He has the right to say
                                   no and suffer the legal, political, and
                                   career consequences of his protest and
                                   has bravely chosen to do so.  I'm stunned
                                   that you'd come on here and say that just
                                   because a court said something that it is
                                   automatically 'good' and he should blindly
                                   obey.  I'd scream "fascist!" but I don't
                                   think you really understood or believed
                                   what you were saying above.
                                   \_ You claim that you want judges that
                                      follow the law, then in the next
                                      statement, claim that judges have
                                      the "right" to engage in civil
                                      disobedience??? The USC clearly
                                      states that the Federal Governemnt
                                      is sovereign over the states. Look
                                      at the statement "the US Constitution
                                      takes precedent over state ones" and
                                      you will see that it is you that keeps
                                      trying to change the subject away from
                                      judicial responsibilty to obey and
                                      enforce the law. I'd scream "hypocrite"
                                      but I don't think you'd really
                                      understand what the word means.
        \_ thanks -nivra
        \_ We don't need to vote!  We already know they're all eevvviiill
           BushCo Republicans!  We only vote on people we like!
           \_ How many Bush nominees have already been voted on?
           \_ right. Bush is the only one who likes to talk about EVIL.
              Evil. A big issue in the world today. Domestic violence, war,
              it's all just evil. Why doesn't Bush declare war on Satan?
              \_ BushCo won't declare war on Satan because BushCo is Eevvvill!
                 We all know BushCo reports directly to Satan!!  Like all the
                 eeeeevvvvviiill!! Republicans!  Eeevvviiill!
2003/11/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11023 Activity:nil
11/11   Bush, Special Interests, and Policy
        http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16790
2003/11/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Recreation/Humor] UID:11019 Activity:nil
11/10   Love Actually is a pretty funny love comedy and at times it pokes
        fun of US Policy and its President who bullies the Prime Minister.
        Is this a sentiment currently shared by most of the Brits?
        \_ I think most of the Europeans, including the Brits, excluding
           Blair, hold an utmost disdain for GWB.
           Blair, hold an upmost disdain for GWB.
        \_ There are many cartoons of Blair as a poodle that Bush pulls
           around on a chain.
           \_ There is one cartoon which was copied and cloned.  A cartoon is
              not a reflection of the populace's general opinion.  It's a
              cartoon.
              \_ You could say the same thing about a popular mp3 on kazaa.
                 This one sounds more like a theme that resonates with people
                 and editors.  Your boy Blair is Little Lord Georgy's poodle.
                 \_ He isn't my boy.  I'm not British and I don't care at all
                    how Blair is portrayed in their own media.  And yes I would
                    say the exact same thing about a 'popular' mp3 on kazaa.
                    The music fad of the week among a tiny sub cult of music
                    listeners is not representative of the general population's
                    tastes or opinions on anything.
2003/11/10 [Recreation/Activities, Health/Men, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11011 Activity:nil
11/10   Dennis Kucinich.  Why is he running for president?  I would think that
        by now people will realize that short men do not get become presidents.
        Michael Dukakis, Paul Tsongas, etc.
        \_ I thought Bush was short.
        \_ neither do motd twits who can use English properly.
2003/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10989 Activity:moderate
11/7    Liberal views force soldier out of military
        http://csua.org/u/4xk
        \_ There is no free speech in the military.  Good thing they got
           rid of this guy.
           \_ I'm ashamed to call you an American.
                \_ ITs the military, chain of command and all that stuff.
                   DUH.
                   \_ Just following orders?
                      \_ Non sequiter?
        \_ Here's a good line which motd leftists should take to heart,
           "The unfortunate aspect of this is not my demise, but their
           inability to understand or accept the opinions of others as
           different from their own."  And here we see a leftist of all people
           correctly describing the difference between the right and left in
           our little motd world.  As a conservative I understand and accept
           the opinions of the leftists here.  I simply disagree.  What I do
           not do is rant about how you're all automatically evil and wrong
           and stupid without discussion simply for thinking differently.
           Mostly I feel badly for you.  I have hope you'll one day think about
           the world with open eyes and see how it is for others and come
           around.  I'm not giving up on you.
           \_ What are your thoughts on Bush?
              \_ He's not a real conservative.  Mostly, I'm disappointed.
           \_ if only any of this were true....
           \_ I think you so-called real conservatives need to take a good
              look at how suppressing differing viewpoints is really starting
              to hurt America. Here is a case where a good, and it turns out
              accurate, young Marine was driven out for telling the truth.
              The Bush Administration is increasingly driven by ideology and
              not facts.
                        \_ There is no opinion in the military - don't you
                           understand this?  You follow the Commander in
                           Chief's orders - thats it.  If every soldier acted
                           on some whim based on the alignment of the planets
                           chaos would reign (not an effective military
              not facts.
                           machine).
              \_ We've been watching differing viewpoints get suppressed for
                 years in the media.  This is nothing new to us.  We're quite
                 aware how suppressing other viewpoints is bad for America.
                 Pot, kettle, black.  --conservative
                 \_ And your point is...?  Just because it's happened to
                    the conservative team (since all politics can clearly be
                    categorized by one of exactly two labels) doesn't make it
                    somehow magically okay or any more acceptable.  Two wrongs
                    & etc.
                 \_ When others do it, it is just as bad. It is just more
                    disturbing when those in power do it.
                    \_ Maybe you and the person above missed the other reply
                       where I said Bush isn't a real conservative and I'm
                       \_ Well, since you don't sign your fucking posts,
                          expecting people to automatically associate them
                       where I said Bush isn't a real conservative and I'm
                          as originating from the same source is a little
                          silly.
                       mostly disappointed with his actions/policy/whatever?
                       If you think Bush is a conservative, which he isn't,
                       and want to stick real conservatives with his policy
                       as if we all 100% believe in all 100% of it then you're
                       nuts.  That's a strawman argument.  I hope you can do
                       better than that.  Would it make sense for me to claim
                       that Al Sharpton represents all liberals and everything
                       he says and believes is something you all 100% believe
                       at all times, too?  Real conservatives disavowed Bush
                       about 30 days into his first term when one of his first
                       actions was to expand all government programs by 4%
                       across the board.  From that day forward he became
                       nothing more than the lesser evil of the Bush/Gore pair.
                       It's the very same media bias that conservatives
                       complain about that keeps people like you thinking that
                       conservatives like me are pro-Bush zombie ditto head
                       clones.  Real conservatives don't exist in the media.
                       We're just a caricature that your media kicks around.
                       \_ the Weekly Standard crowd aren't "real conservatives"
                          either?  ok, fine.  from now on I will identify all
                          my unusual opinions as those of a "real liberal"
                          and claim every liberal you've ever heard of isn't
                          really a liberal so you can't use any published
                          information on liberal ideology to disagree with me.
                          this is absurd.  why don't you start a new thread
                          and post the three to five most basic priciples of
                          whatever you're calling "real conservatism?"
                          I suspect you're the same person who signs their posts
                          "real conservative" periodically on the motd, and
                          some of us are genuinely curious.
                          -real transcendentalist
                          \_ I don't write for the weekly standard.  They have
                             nothing to do with anything.  It's a for-profit
                             publication of no interest to me.  Some basics:
                             1) smaller government, lower taxes 2) no
                             religious hijacking of government in *either*
                             direction which means the 10 commandments being
                             posted in a school or court room is not a crime,
                             but we shouldn't have prayer in school either, 3)
                             no business in people's personal lives which
                             includes sex, abortion, euthanasia, and other
                             medical decisions, however that also means being
                             gay or whatever doesn't make you a protected
                             class either, 4) the end of government created
                             poverty:  give a man a fish and he eats for a day
                             (and then comes back for another fish tomorrow).
                             There's more but that should give you some idea.
                             The core concept is the government stands in the
                             way of personal achievement and progress for all
                             people once it grows beyond a certain size and
                             exceeds it's mandate as laid out in the
                             constitution.  We need government, because
                             without it we'd have anarchy leading to
                             dictatorship, but we don't need a government that
                             has the power and the will to destroy and steal
                             our freedoms through the sheer size of government
                             and the average citizen's inability to fight
                             against it to protect our most basic rights.
                             Would you like to provide a few summary points of
                             what a real liberal is?
                             \_ actually, I don't consider myself a "real
                                liberal" at all, I just said that to point
                                out the flaw in your argument.  I basically
                                agree with most of the points you claim for
                                "real conservatism".  However, I don't
                                believe you can claim point (3) above for
                                coservatives.  If you look at the opinions
                                of the vast majority of republicans vs.
                                democrats, there is not question that the
                                republicans are the worse party for civil
                                \_   waco, elian, creating swat teams
                                     within virtually every Fed department
                                     (eg. IRS, Forest Service, FEMA)
                                     rural cleansing through endangered
                                     species, etc..... what Pres did this?
                                     The Patriot Act was written
                                     during the Clinton administration and
                                     contains provisions proposed much earlier,
                                     law enforcement has always wanted power.
                                     The Act merely codified actions
                                     used by law enforcement for decades.
                                     The problem is government, period.
                                     If you are concerned with government
                                     intrusion why do you insist on giving
                                     the Fed more power and money to pass
                                     more laws to regulate more aspects of our
                                     lives.  This is common sense, freedom
                                     and a social welfare state are
                                     irreconcilable.  The latter always
                                     marches inexorably towards tyranny.
                                        \_ How many Canadians do you know?  How
                                           many got sick?  The ones I know came
                                           to the US to get medical care
                                           because their oppressive government
                                           doesn't allow them to purchase
                                           better care than the government
                                           offers.  They are forced into using
                                           sub standard care and must cross to
                                           our country to restore their free
                                           access to western medical standards
                                           even though ours has sunk since
                                           HMOs took over and destroyed most
                                           of it, it's still better than there.
                                     \_ Yeah, like Canada.  Those Canadians
                                        with their welfare state and
                                        socialized medicine are so oppressed.
                                     Philosophical support for a small
                                     government inherently protects
                                     liberty... this always has been
                                     provenance of the right (though there
                                     are many, probably a majority, of
                                     RINOs in government).  The 'opinions
                                     of ...' is a very vague term.
                                liberties.  To claim otherwise is an analogous
                                arguement to that made by leftists who
                                claim all the evils of communism in the 20th
                                century were by governments that were
                                "not real communists."  I don't buy into either
                                argument.  Your claims for "real conservatism"
                                sound a lot like William Safire's brand of
                                 "conservatism."  Unfortunately, you and
                                 William Safire appear to be the only
                                 "conservatives" in America who give a
                                 damn about civil liberties.  My point about
                                 real liberals above was just this: just
                                 because I like to call myself a liberal and
                                 believe in smaller government and fewer
                                 \_ Once again, you only see the conservatives
                                    as the leftist media presents them.  It
                                    *really* pisses me off to read the pseudo
                                    right wing op/ed chick in the Chronical
                                    who makes the most idiotic points in the
                                    most illogical manner possible.  We exist
                                    and we are not happy with Bush but it's
                                    better than anything the minority party
                                    has to offer so we hold our nose and vote.
              not facts.
        \_ Here's a good line which motd right-wingers should take to heart,
           "The unfortunate aspect of this is not my demise, but their
           inability to understand or accept the opinions of others as
           different from their own."  And here we see a leftist of all people
           correctly describing the difference between the right and left in
           our little motd world.  As a liberal I understand and accept
           the opinions of the right-wingers here.  I simply disagree.  What I
           do not do is rant about how you're all automatically evil and wrong
           and stupid without discussion simply for thinking differently.
           Mostly I feel badly for you.  I have hope you'll one day think about
           the world with open eyes and see how it is for others and come
           around.  I'm not giving up on you.
           \_ if only any of this were true....
                             what a real liberal is?
                                 subsidies does not make that a liberal ideology
                                 no matter how much I wish it was. so I don't
                                 call myself a liberal.
2003/11/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29625 Activity:nil
11/7    Turkey is not sending trops to Iraq. A blow to President Bush,
        perhaps, but Turkey troop would of caused more problem than it
        would resolve if they are actually being send ti Iraq anyway.
        \_ What is going on at the White House??
        \_ "would of"?
        \_ The Iraqi Governing Council was screaming bloody murder about the
           possibility so we didn't push it.
2003/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29620 Activity:nil
11/6    Sanity from the Economist
        http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2189237
        \_ You just wanted to tie in to the Beanie thread below:
           "For all his rhetoric about keeping Washington in check, Mr Bush,
            as one Republican analyst puts it, has been spending like 'a
            drunken sailor'."
           \_ yeah, but it's all on the war against terrorism, not on
              government handouts and abortionists -troll
              \_ I thought it was all spent on Halliburton contracts and
                 scaring Americans into thinking they're faced with imminent
                 nuclear destruction.
2003/11/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10949 Activity:nil
11/4    Washington Post:
        "Only one in seven Americans agrees with President Bush's assertion
        that the conflict in Iraq is the most important fight in the war on
        terrorism, according to a Washington Post-ABC poll."
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A857-2003Nov4.html
2003/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29609 Activity:nil
11/4    Ok, so how many of you think that the attacks are carried out by
        the so called "Saddam Loyalist"? think about it, if some
        country over runs the US, do you think only the Bush Loyalist
        would be in the resistance? I think not. No matter how corrupt
        Bush is, I will surely be the one to resist any foreign
        invasion forces. I hope the idiots at Washington has a good
        understanding of the problem and deal with it accordingly. Oh
        wait, we are only there for the oil, fuck everything else. We
        are out of there once we get the oil... never mind.
        \_ By "Bush" you mean "Hu Jintao," right?
        \_ No cookie, troll.  You can do better than that.
2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/17   

2003/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29608 Activity:nil
11/4    So what is it with all the hatred in CSUA? We hate SUVs, we hate
        M$, we hate Winblows, we hate Bush, we hate StanfUrd, we hate golf
        players, we hate the wealthy in general (why??), we hate landlords,
        we hate __stick in a politican here__, we hate pretty much
        everything. What is up with that?               -fun loving guy
        \_ I hate you.
        \_ different hatreds for different reasons: we hate girls because
           we can't get any... we hate minorities who excel in CS because
           we feel they are more succesful than us, we hate minorities
           who don't do CS because we think they are lazy and get handouts,
           we hate alot of stuff because the stupid cartoons on the walls
           of top dog tell us to hate them... we hate Bush and the wealthy
           because we are from Berkeley... we hate Stanfurd because of
           some inane tradition.
        \_ Berkeleyeans hate wars in general, hence Bush, etc etc etc.
           \_ Very simple solution : America - Love or leave it.
              \_ I prefer: America - Try to improve it.
           \_ No, Berkeleyians just hate.  It's easier than thinking and
              engaging in rational debate.
              \_ I'm so glad I haven't lived in Berkeley in a long time.
                 I lived in Oakland for most of the time I went to Berkeley,
                 and I highly recommend it.
        \_ It's all very rational. First of all, most of us hate wars. Then
           we make the following connections:
           war->bush->corporations
                    ->bush ranch->golfh
                    ->wealth->StanfUrd
                            ->M$->BillG->WinBlows
                    ->oil->SUV
                    ->republicans
           And we hate everything that connects to war, which includes all
           of the followings. It is all very rational.
2003/11/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10936 Activity:high
11/4    http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAUJ53BMMD.html
        The Bush job bust.
        \_ Yippee Im sooo happy, unemployment for everyone.
           Now if only more soldiers die in Iraq I will be ecstatic
           and gloat myself silly.
           \_ Hey, high unemployment is good for business!  You won't have
              fat soft workers asking for benefits, raises, or union
              membership if unemployment was at say 35%.  Salaries would
              seriously drop and that means more money for the execs!
           \_ Ahh, gotta love editing of posts after the fact.
                \_ Part of what I wrote was deleted. Who loves you baby.
                   \_ You LIE!
2003/11/1 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10892 Activity:nil
10/31   Remember all those rosy estimates about how much it would
        cost to rebuild Iraq from the White House? Remember how many
        on the motd said that $200B and 10 years was wildly too high?
        Who turned out to be right?
        http://csua.org/u/4v5
        \_ Of course the Marshall plan cost over $1 Trillion.  And that gave us
           France and Germany.  Oh well.
           \_ BZZT thanks for playing anyway.  The Marshall Plan allowed the
              European countries to devise their own reconstruction plans,
              and make their own priorities, which the Iraqi reconstruction
              does not.  US corporations did not participate - the money was
              given to local organizations and companies.
              Also, the Marshall plan cost 11.8 billion, about 100 billion
              in todays dollars, not 1 trillion.  You're off by an order
              of magnitude even taking into account inflation.
              \_ The value I saw was $1T in today's dollars.  I'll double check.
                 Do you have a reference for your figure?
        \_ Yawn.  I don't recall seeing $200b and 10 years on the motd and
           certainly never thought such a figure was wildly too high.  I'm
           still stuck on the motd postings about how it's going to be another
           Vietnam quagmire and we'll never beat them and how the CA recall
           can't possibly pass and Arnold can't possibly get elected if it
           does and Bush can't win in 2000 and the tax cuts will never pass
           and the economy will never recover and we're running out of oil
           and housing prices are going to crash.  If I had to blindly bet
           with 1:1 odds on whether a motd prediction would come true or not
           I'd be fabulously wealthy always betting against the motd.
2003/10/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10869 Activity:moderate
10/30   memo from Fox News staffer on whether they are
        really 'fair and balanced.'.  I guess it's not any
        new information but it's interesting:
        http://poynter.org/forum/?id=letters#foxnews - danh
        \_ "For the staffers, many of whom are too young to have come up
            through the ranks of objective journalism, and all of whom
            are non-union, with no protections regarding what they can be
            made to do, there is undue motivation to please the big boss."
            Oh yeah.  Objective journalism like the LA times who refused
            to dig dirt at one point on Davis because claimed they don't do
            that to political incumbents.  They also had more than 20 (!?)
            people working on digging up dirt on Arnie.  Objective journalism
            my ass.  Fox is tame by comparison.  They actually let people
            lean both sides, as long as one side doesn't get the last word.
                 \_ Are you trolling? This is patently false.
                    \_ If you are referring to the LA Times story, it was all
                       over the news here in LA.  Too bad it didn't make
                       national (or even state) news...  Actually one wonders
                       why not...  A bloody LA times reporter confirmed the
                       20+ figure.
                       \_ I think he referred to the "fox lets people lean both
                          sides" falsehood. About the dirt-digging, well I have
                          no knowledge of that but I'm not concerned. Davis has
                          been in politics a long time and dirt is out there.
                          Arnie on the otherhand declared candidacy just weeks
                          prior to a recall election, and therefore any dirt
                          would be very timely and informative.
                          \_ That 'falsehood' was a quote from that Fox-bashing
                             article posted above which started this thread,
                             you know the article you probably didn't read...
            If that's bias, we need more bias in the media!
            \_ Attempting "moral equivalency" between LA times and Fox News
               is ludicrous. Are you really comfortable with the level of
               systematic, intentional bias creation in that memo?
               http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2003/10/index.html#001768
            \_ Actually, we need less of both.  I'm sure people would laugh
               at you if you said "Fox is tame by comparison".
               \_ Why should they laugh at me?  I believe bias in media is
                  unavoidable.  What we need is less hypocricy by people
                  denouncing sins of which they are guilty themselves.
                  \_ They should just change the slogan of Fox News to
                     "The Patriotic News Channel" and be done with it.  That's
                     more accurate for what they think they're doing.
                     \_ But it's not "patriotic" when a Dem is prez.
                     \_ yes because republicans are patriotic and dems are
                        sleazy commie traitors.
                  \_ You're in the wrong camp:  it's the libs who yell
                     "hypocrite" and the cons who scream "unpatriotic."
                     Get your slogans right.
2003/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10841 Activity:nil
10/29   New Republican policy on Iraq "just mow the whole place down"
        http://www.thehill.com/news/102903/gopunity.aspx
2003/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10839 Activity:nil
10/29   Black woman getting Borked?
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1009019/posts
        In that speech, Brown said that "where government moves in,
        community retreats, civil society disintegrates, and our
        ability to control our destiny atrophies. The result is:
        families under siege, war in the streets, unapologetic
        expropriation of property, the precipitous decline of
        the rule of law, the rapid rise of corruption, the
        loss of civility and the triumph of deceit."
        \_ Racist
2003/10/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29594 Activity:very high
10/28  Bush blames Aircraft Carrier for "Mission Accomplished"
       http://www.dailykos.com
        \_ Wow, that was really lame, and badly thought out.
           \_ Yeah, I agree. That aircraft carrier stunt was really stupid.
           \_ Nah, not really.
           \_ is it even worth a cut n paste to my browser?
        \_ That's a pattern. Bush barely knows what's going on, even with folks
           he appointed. Bush should take a page from Truman and stop passing
           the buck.
          \_ I disagree.  I think he knew exactly what is going on, just that
              when things are not going the way he wanted, he starts to blame
              his subordinates (read: CIA).  Bush is surely a man of action,
              he just doesn't take the responsibility for his action when
              things are not going his way.
2003/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29590 Activity:nil
10/28   Liberal Christian Science Monitor turns against Bush:
        http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1028/p09s01-codc.html
        \_ this is news?
2003/10/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10798 Activity:nil
10/25   Hey, think of the positive side. Finally one of Bush's cronies
        has some military experience.
2003/10/26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10788 Activity:nil
10/25   NPR In A Coma
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1008119/posts
        \_ that wasn't very interesting, and i can barely
           care less about old vegetative people wanting to die,
           i'm sure you can find a more entertaining hate filled
           free republic message topic.  do you really not have
           anything better to do than report uncreative free
           republic webpage titles?  i think you need a girlfriend.
           seriously.
        \_ I concur with the above. I am the worse for having read that. I
           hoped for some vitriolic anti-liberal ranting, but got boredom.
2003/10/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Science/Physics] UID:10784 Activity:nil
10/24   How much extra radiation do you get when flying during a Coronal Mass
        Ejaculation?  Like the one occuring right now.
        \_ "When that bowel shock strikes the earth's magnetic field, it's
           traveling a million miles an hour or more. So it's really moving.
           That's a lot of particles, a lot of hydrogen particles protons and
           electrons slamming in the magnetic field. And it sort of makes it
           jiggle."
        \_ You'll die.
           \_ Sooner?
              \_ Instantly.  Like a marshmellow over a fire pit.
        \_ Should you worry more about possible plane crash caused by
           communication to control tower or GPS satellites being disrupted,
           than the higher radiation that you body receives?
           \_ In a word, Yes.
              \_ Like a marshmellow.  ZZZZT!
                 \_ ORBITAL LASERS!
                    \_ The Mafia with the help of the Men in Black and The
                       Evil Scientists for a Better Tomorrow would like to
                       attack to control The Orbital Mind Control Lasers.
                       Base attack is 11 or less.  Anyone want to pay to
                       stop it?
                       \_ I have a B-1 Bomber with a 100 Megaton warhead.
                          \_ SDI!
                       \_ Since the Boy Sprouts have a controlling influence
                          on the Mafia, and since the Rand Corporation owns
                          the Men in Black, NPR will stop that attack on
                          their soveignity over the OMCL.
                          \_ Not yet they don't!  I've got White Collar Crime!
                             Enron shuts off power to NPR's broadcast towers
                             and TOMC are mine!
2003/10/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:10760 Activity:nil
10/23   Brilliant!
        http://www.theonion.com/3941/top_story.html
        \_ Um, someone said "nice" here, and you deleted it.  Why?
        \_ Just to make things fair, I'll censor your "This is pure crap"
           comment.  Wasn't that fun?
           \_ not really.  I'm not the one who took out "nice".  You
              are all simple-minded troll bait.
              \_ agreed. -- guy who wrote (and deleted) "nice"
        \_ exactly what qualifies someone to be a politician?  WHat skills
           did Davis have that made him so effective.  Seems to me politics
                \_ he was treasurer?  do you even know who he is?
                   \_ what qualified him to be treasurer then?
                   \_ alot of good it did towards that pesky 38 billion
                      deficit.  Not to forget his stellar achievement
                      with the energy contracts.
           requires 1) common sense 2) vision 3) people skills 4) ethics.
           Regrettably most politicians (including Davis) lack this.
           \_ Nope.  It's 1) electability, 2) re-electability.  Anything else
              is bonus.  Davis got elected because he could raise money like
              a one-eyed hooker in a blind-man's brothel.
2003/10/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:10718 Activity:kinda low
10/21   Stock market performed better under Democratic presidencies.
        http://polls.yahoo.com/public/archives/57019568/p-quote-273
        (Yahoo! Finance)
        I thought Republicans are the pro-business ones.
        \_ the difference is statistically small. On the opposite end you
           could argue that Democratic Presidents start more wars than
           Republican Presidents by a proportion of five to one.
        \_ "pro-business" is different from "pro-market". Compare corporate
           welfare and coddling protectionism (handouts) to the kind of
           regs that enhance competition (regulation) like the wireless
           number portability rule that will soon make cell phone companies
           actually compete with each other. "Pro-market" is good for
           consumers because it enhances competition. "Pro-business" is
           usually just big corporate donors getting cushy perks, bought
           and paid for. --aaron
        \_ I've heard this theory that the more gov't leaves business alone
           the better business does.  Maybe the dems, by not changing much
           to do with business, didn't fuck them up?
        \_ don't think Republicans are "pro-business" as much as they are
           pro-corporate executive profits. ... if you look at it this way,
           clearly this attitude will adversely affect business (enron, etc)
           \_ Ah, got it.
           \_ What? No snide comments from the self proclaimed "real"
              conservatives?  Here's a thought: a good economy makes life
              easier for most people, but a bad economy with big tax cuts
              for the very wealthy is only good for the very wealthy.
              Republicans don't give a shit about small to medium size
              businesses, an assertion proven by the current republicans
              in the white house and in congress.
              \_ Well, I was going to comment, but you seem to be carrying
                 a nice conversation with yourself, so I ll leave you to it.
                   -- real conservative
        \_ Gov't is statist on both sides - who he pays receives.  So do you
           want bigger government (more of the same) or less? But the
           first sentence 'A 2003 paper looked seriously at the 18...',
           and the last 'Other writers have confirmed a performance
           difference in favor of Democratic administrations,
           though one that was too small to be statistically significant.'
           suggest 1) the sample size is too small 2) the article / paper
           are overreaching.
2003/10/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10695 Activity:nil
10/19   Things we've learned from Republicans lately:
        http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2003/10/20/tomo/story.jpg
        \_ 5, 4, 3...
        \_ I'll put in my thank you for submitting this before it all devolves
           into the usual flamefest.
           \_ 2...
           \_ There's no point in going through a line by line correction.
              It's a cartoon from salon.  I could post links to my favorite
              conservative websites the same as the OP is posting from one of
              their favorite leftist ones but what would be the point of doing
              that?  --Eevviil BushCo Conspirator
              \_ That you'd taken the bait?
                 \_ If it makes you feel better to think so.  Meta comment on
                    a link is not the same as biting down hard. --EBCC
                    \_ I bet you're a Yankees fan.
                       \_ Feeling better, yet?
2003/10/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10656 Activity:nil
10/16   "Bush told his senior aides Tuesday that he "didn't want to see any
        stories" quoting unnamed administration officials in the media anymore,
        and that if he did, there would be consequences, said a senior
        administration official who asked that his name not be used."
        http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/7023679.htm
        \_ See?  Bush is an effective leader.
           \_ Yeah, you can do better.
              \_ That's quite a vote of confidence! "G. W. Bush: Better
                 Than Some Guy on the Internet".  And I think just about
                 any idiot here could manage to get through 4 years without
                 turning an enormous budget surplus into a deficit, selling
                 out the environment, throwing away the last bit of American
                 moral authority, destroying civil liberties, and enforcing a
                 no-tell secrecy policy more ridiculous than Nixon's.  Bush is
                 is incompetent, naturally incompetent; but it must have taken
                 him a great deal of pains to become what we now see him.
                 Such an excess of stupidity, sir, is not in Nature.
                 \_ Yeah, he's so stupid.  I agree.  It would have been so much
                    better under Gore.  The economy which was already tanking
                    before the election would have been stellar, the terrorists
                    would have loved us and had us over for tea and the whole
                    world would join in mass group hugs televised from the UN.
2003/10/9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:10563 Activity:nil
10/9    Just like we told you all along: Republicans are misinformed about
        the world. Fox News is part of the reason why:
        http://www.rense.com/general42/werep.htm
        \_ I like Republican bashing as much as the next guy, but I don't know
           if that study proves causation.  I think its just as likely that
           one might be more willing to watch Fox News *because* you are
           misinformed or deluded.
        \_ I want a study comparing the perceptions of those who watch Fox
           vs Al-Jazeera.
2003/10/8 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10524 Activity:high
10/7    Gray gave a very nice speech.  He's clearly not going to be leaving
        politics.  Also, exit polls gave Tom a 53% positive rating across all
        voters.  I hope he runs against Boxer.
        \_ This is a punch in the stomach of state democrats. I hope they
           learned their lesson. In the meantime, Go Arnold!
           \_ Yeah, it was a punch in the stomach 3 years ago when Bush won.
              Boy, did I learn my lesson because today America is much
              better than it was 3 years ago, right?
              \_ We're talking state politics, right? So stop talking Bush
                 here. Davis was a nasty politician, just a notch above
                 corrupt. The governorship was for sale to the highest
                 bidder. If he was even 1/2 the governor that he was during
                 the last few weeks, he'd still be in office. But we all
                 saw thru the charade. He's gone, and good riddance. I'm
                 not pro-bush. I hate him. I hate most republicans, but when
                 the democrats go this wrong, this will send a message that
                 they better listen to. And don't get me wrong, the mesg goes
                 out to republicans, too, because they are just as much to
                 blame as anybody for the mess we're in. This lets Sacramento
                 know that the people will vote them out if they don't do
                 their job. My only regret is that there won't be a
                 "Kindergarten Cop II". Damn!
                 \_ Oh, for the love of Christ-- the governorship is still
                    up for sale, it's just that the price has gone up.  Instead
                    of selling relatively cheap to Indian Casinos and Labor
                    Unions, expect the Governator to be kind to big Energy in
                    exchange for big political payoffs now and later.  Say
                    goodbye to any chance of us getting more than pittance
                    from Enron, et. al.
                    \_ You're so 2001.  We already weren't going to get
                       anything more from anyone on the energy bills.  If you
                       thought otherwise it was just some caffeine induced
                       starbuck's fantasy.
                    \_ Arnie will prove you wrong.
                       \_ You know what?  I hope you're right.  I hope Arnie
                          will turn out to be that rarest of critters, a
                          truly uncorrupt, fiscally responsible, truly
                          compassionate conservative.  If he does, I will
                          gladly post my most humble apologies right here.
                          In the meantime, even though I voted no on the
                          Recall, I will gladly admit that I am happy to
                          see Davis on his way out.  If only we'd impeached
                          him instead....
                    \_ I hope this will send a message to the white house, too.
           \_ nope. I am a democrat and I am not sure what "lesson" have
              I learned, other than the fact not voting for Bush means
              get screwed big time by Texas cowboys on Energy supply
              and no federal intervention because the whitehouse and
              the Kenny Boy is in the same club.
              \_ I'll spell it out for you: there's no aristocracy in this
                 state.  The people count and they're tired of seeing a jerkoff
                 like Davis blatantly sell out their interests to anyone with
                 a dollar and a bill they need signed.  We have power and they
                 better wake the fuck up.  That's the lesson to our worthless
                 "take a walk on that bill" legislators.
                 \_ The people are easily led and willing to believe that a
                    rich and ambitious man won't sell them down the river to
                    further the aims of the super-rich and politically
                    connected.  Your masses, sir, are asses.
                    \_ They knew when they were getting screwed by a publicly
                       known corrupt politico and dumped his fat corrupt ass.
                       The people are just people and sometimes they fuck up
                       but this wasn't one of those times.  If the election
                       had gone the other way you'd be here screaming how
                       brilliant the people are.  Are you the same poster from
                       above who thinks BA voters are somehow special and
                       extra smart because the majority voted against recall?
        \_ I loved how he was introduced: "best gov in the history of calif."
           \_ Best governor in the last 11 months for sure!
        \_ "It's a tumah! It's not a tumah!"
2003/10/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29559 Activity:nil
10/6    This is pretty fuckin' awful.
        http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60713,00.html
        \_ You've got no sense of perspective.  That's all bullshit.  *This*
           is what "pretty fuckin' awful" means:
           http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2530446/detail.html
           \_ you're a self-righteous prick. why don't i one-up you with say,
              the kitty genovese incident? and no one bring up hitler now...
           \_ many things are awful.  see ny'er below.
           \_ makes me ashamed to be a human being.  why would anyone
              do something so horrible?  that's AWFUL.
              \_ you're a pansy. as people exposed to american media, we
                 should all be desensitized to all sorts of violence by now.
                 now excuse me while i go kick a puppy.
                 \_ agree with comment, but not example.  The american media
                    won't even show us the results of what Bush did in Iraq.
2003/10/7 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29554 Activity:high
10/6    Just think: tomorrow, regardless of the outcome, the greatest source
        of stupid trolls in the history of the motd will be at an end.  Praise
        Jesus!
        \_ You say that just months before the 04 election cycle begins.
           \_ Not too worried about that.  Everyone on here knows Bush is
              a twink, except for one freeper that no one listens to anyway.
                    \_ everyone knows?  troll harder.
        \_ ^Jesus^Allah and Mohammed his Prophet^.
        \_ no because then we can do the Dem hanging/pregnant/what chad thing
           and the Dem minorities-are-too-stupid-to-figure-out-how-to-vote-so-
           -we-need-a-do-over thing and the various Dem attempts to recall
           Arnold which will go nowhere and the endless debate of the gridlock
           caused when the legislature refuses to try to work with a (R)
           governor.
           \_ Sigh.  Trolling again.  You don't understand the voting machine
              issue in the slightest, do you?  You don't understand the
              distrinction between saying minorities are too stupid to vote,
              and saying that voting machines that are prone to error
              (regardless of who uses them) are heavily concentrated in
              minority districts?
              \_ Good call.  Pick one thing and ignore the rest.  That always
                 works on the motd.  By the time anyone notices the thread will
                 be too long to read and then erased and you can feel smart.
2003/10/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10488 Activity:high
10/6    George HW Bush went to Japan and threw up all over the Japanese PM
        and lost the election.  In order to complete the circle on George
        junior, I think he should travel abroad and throw up over another
        head of state.  Who do you want Dubya to throw up on (feel free to
        add more):
        The Pope:
        Ariel Sharon: .
        Tony Blair:
        Jacques Chirac:
        Hamid Karzai: .
        Putin: .
        Ahmed Chalabi: .
        Yassir Arafat: .
        All of the above: .
          \_ Holy Puking Presidents, Batman!
        \_ any links that talks about this?
        \_ I doubt that's why he lost the election, you can thank Ross for that
           but it's an amusing premise.  My vote is for the Queen of England.
           If you're going to throw up on someone, you should really go for it.
        Queen Elisabeth: .
        Druk Gyalpo Jigme Singye Wangchuck: ...................................
        .......................................................................
        .......................................................................
        ............................
                \_ Why should anyone care of Bush vomits on the King of Bhutan?
                   \_ I think the poster was trying to win obscure reference
                      of the week award.
        \_ I think it should just be the current Japan PM, Junichiro Koizumi.
2003/10/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10413 Activity:nil
10/1    President Bush supports medical liability reform.
        SHOULDN'T YOU???
        link:www.csua.org/u/4l9
        \_ Snore. troll troll troll. boring.
2003/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10399 Activity:nil
10/1    http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm
        30 years?  damn.
        \_ hell, if she's not as sexy as the Alias girl who cares?
           \_ no, she's hotter
              "slim, blonde ... In the photos in his office, she has the
              looks of a film star. 'She is really quite amazing,' Wilson
              said." Wash Post
        \_ 30 years?  What about 30 years?
           \_ Valerie Plame has been undercover for 3 decades
        \_ 3 decades != 30 years... 3 decades could be 14 years: 1989-2003
         \_ 3 decades!  damn!  (Oh and given that she trained someone who
            quit in 1989 and was in the service for 4 years I suspect more
            than 14, but the whole Plame is 40 thing makes much more than
            18 years seem unlikely.)
        \_ another interesting perspective:
          http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml
          \_ jesus. novak's own column makes him look like an utter idiot.
             \_ I agree.  For one, he claims the Washington Post report about
                leaking the wife's name as "simply untrue" without providing
                any evidence.  Second, when the CIA rep asked not to publish
                her name, and said it would cause "difficulties" if it were,
                what does Novak expect?  For the CIA rep to say, "She's
                covert, so you can't report her name".
                \_ The CIA should just execute Novak.
2003/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10386 Activity:high
9/30    When people say "fiscal conservative." What do they mean by that?
        Is fiscal "responsible" i.e. no deficit spending a "conservative"
        or "liberal" platform traditionally?
        \_ Various definitions, several of them very, er, interesting.
           Generally means don't spend more than you can bring in as tax
           revenues, don't spend one-time revenues (i.e. increased taxes
           during boom times) on long-term commitments, keep as much spending
           as possible in the private sector and only spend public money
           on services that the private sector would probably not invest in
           if left to its own (see Adam Smith), keep taxes low to make more
           private income available to spend on goods and services.
           Essentially, the same sort of common-sense money management that
           private individuals ought to engage in.  Most implementations have
           some problems, like the EU's stability pact, which prevents
           governments from 'priming the pump' to kick-start their economies,
           if their deficits are already too high, and the fact that many
           elected representatives try to bolster their electoral popularity
           through sometimes unnecessary spending "at home".  And let's face
           it, you'll be hard-pressed to find two people who'll agree
           entirely on who should be taxed how much on what.  -John
        \_ It means fiscally conservative: e.g. only spend and increase
           national debt to fund issues like: defense, anti-immigrant,
           big-tax-cuts-for-wealthy-few, pro-business-let-them-do-what-
           they-want-no-oversight-Enron, anti-environmental-regulation.
           \_ Are you angry?  -John
2003/9/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10374 Activity:moderate
9/29    Sorry kids!  Better luck next time!  In Novak's own words,
        'Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this. In July I
        was interviewing a senior administration official on Ambassador
        Wilson's report when he told me the trip was inspired by his wife, a
        CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction. Another senior
        official told me the same thing. As a professional journalist with 46
        years experience in Washington I do not reveal confidential sources.
        When I called the CIA in July to confirm Mrs. Wilson's involvement in
        the mission for her husband -- he is a former Clinton administration
        official -- they asked me not to use her name, but never indicated it
        would endanger her or anybody else. According to a confidential source
        at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert
        operator, and not in charge of undercover operatives'
        \_ Sounds like a leak to me. Reread the second sentence over again.
           Just because Novak called the official doesn't mean that he didn't
           have a responsibility to keep her identity secret from the press.
           Plus, there are those six other reporters that were contacted
           by the White House....
           \_ Reread the last sentence you twink.
           \_ I agree:  Novak is telling it like it happened, and it still
              sounds bad.  There were no calls to Novak according to him,
              but two senior Bush officials did reveal her identity.  The
              CIA told Novak not to use Wilson's wife's name.  Novak found
              out -- possibly only recently -- that the wife was an analyst
              and not undercover.
              The effect is still to intimidate, the law still broken
              by the two senior administration officials, and someone may
              end up going to jail.
              \_ If she wasn't a covert operative then no law was broken and
                 there's no intimidation.
                 \_ sure, and analysts are desk workers who are never ever
                    in danger from foreign governments.
        \_ As the other person pointed out, Novak was told that revealing
           her name would cause problems. The real blame lies with the
           leakers, who according to a second SAO leak to WaPo, did this
           purely to indimidate. They broke federal law and anyone who
           knows about it and doesn't come forward is also guilty according
           to US Code (misprision of felony) --aaron
        \_ Let me quote DailyKOS: (--aaron)
           A couple of things:

           This changes nothing re: the law -- two senior administration
           officials still revealed the identity of an undercover CIA officer.

           Also, if Novak is correct, then what about the other reporters
           contacted with the information?  Novak has had a rocky
           relationship with this administration, but at the end of the
           day, he would rather have a Republican in the White House than a
           Democrat. He _is_ a partisan, and his statement (which remember,
           doesn't exculpate the administration from wrongdoing) is simply
           the first salvo of the administration's counterattack.
           \_ Now you're mix n matching to suit your agenda.  She worked for
        \_ Sounds like a leak to me. Reread the first sentence over again.
              the CIA pushing paper, not as a field agent.  One is a felony,
              the other is nothing.
              \_ BTW, I hope none of the impressionable young motd readers
                 out there actually believe this "analyst" spin.  Novak
                 himself was even backpedaling on that when Ensor stated
                 that his sources say she was undercover.  Wilson also stated
                 the same thing on NPR.
              \_ The reply to you above said it all. Your response are very
                 revealing. Let me guess, you were one of the many who
                 screamed about every Arkansas Project invention from
                 Troopergate (found to be fabricated with bribes from
                 Scaife) and Travelgate (found to be cooked up by RNC)
2003/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10371 Activity:moderate
9/29    Sources close to the former president say Rove was fired from the
        1992 Bush presidential campaign after he planted a negative
        story with columnist Robert Novak about dissatisfaction with
        campaign fundraising chief and Bush loyalist Robert Mosbacher Jr.
        It was smoked out, and he was summarily ousted. -Esquire, Jan 2003
        \_ AH HA!  THE SMOKING GUN!  NOW WE *KNOW* FOR *CERTAIN* HE GAVE UP
           THE CIA AGENT IN NIGERIA!  BRILLIANT DETECTIVE WORK!
           \_ Nah, it just makes Rove look bad.  "Having a pump is like having
              sex.  I train two, sometimes three times a day.  Each time I get
              a pump.  It's great.  I feel like I'm coming all day."
              \_ that's not rove you moron, that's arnold
                 \_ as in, the article in Oui just made Ahnold look bad,
                    but it didn't prove anything... just like Rove.
2003/9/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10260 Activity:kinda low
9/19    Dixie Chicks victims of BushCo assassination attempt!
        http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30500-1104462,00.html
        \_ Is this an attempt to be funny in the MOTD or funny in the head?
        \_ Arrr!
           \_ Avast!
2003/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10241 Activity:nil
9/17    http://www.moveon.org/firerumsfeld
        \_ I've got a long list of what you might call 'neocon' websites
           but I don't waste motd bits posting obvious right wing drivel.
           Do us a favor and don't post left wing drivel?
           \_ Left wing?  The man is a fuckup.  It's not a party issue.
2003/9/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10235 Activity:high
9/17    I refuse to accept the premise that surpluses are going to
        decline if I'm the president. I think they're going to
        increase, because my plan will increase productivity
        by cutting marginal rates. -GWB 12/7/1999
        \_ WOW, I can't believe that you are blaming the .com
           bubble and its side-effects on GWB.
           \_ Are you claiming that the .com bubble is what forced
              GWB and the Republican Congress to increase federal
              spending by 15%? Right....
                \_ Even if there was no spending increase the
                   surplus would have declined because of the
                   the .com bubble. I'm not saying that what
                   GWB is doing is right, I'm saying that the
                   state of the economy (and hence the budget)
                   is the way that it is due to circumstances
                   out of his control (he could no more have
                   stopped the .com bust than you or I).
                   The only way for GWB to restore the surplus
                   created by the .com bubble would be to cut
                   federal spending drastically, but this would
                   piss off the 'Republicans are Nazi's who
                   don't care about sick, infirm, aged and
                   poor people who aren't white christians'
                   crowd and they would go on national tv
                   crying about how if we just passed up one
                   sidewinder or a single aid pkg to Israel
                   we could have all the welfare and medicare
                   forever. Since Bush doesn't want that, we
                   are stuck with a budget that doesn't (and
                   cannot) properly reflect the economic
                   circumstatnces we find ourselves in.
                   GWB is doing is right, I'm saying that it
                   is largely out of his (or anyones) control.
                   \_ I notice you have avoided the question.
                      The tax cuts and spending increases have
                      done more to increase the deficit than the
        \_ Note: pre-9/11
                      revenue decreases since 2000.
                   \_ There was an article in the WSJ recently
                      plotting federal spending through the Clinton
                      and GWB years.  It was a very nice straight
                      line going down (about 15% total) during the
                      Clinton admin, and a very "nice" straight line
                      going up during GWB's admin, rolling back about
                      80% of what Clinton achieved.
           \_ ^GWB^Gray Davis
                   \_ Davis screwed the state over in the
                      "Energy Crisis". Sure the state was
                      hurt by the .com bubble, but the
                      major screw up was the "Energy Crisis".
                      \_ And sold out to how many different
                         unions?
        \_ Note: pre-9/11
2003/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10209 Activity:nil
9/16    They don't like Bush?  They'll be stunned when they see Cheney as
        President.
        http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2003/sept/16/top_stories/20030916top2.html
        \_ Hasn't anyone watched "The Manchurian Candidate," "Betrayed," and
           "My Fellow Americans"? The VP _always_ has devious designs.
2003/9/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10090 Activity:nil 75%like:10080
9/4     Fart for Bush!
        http://www.heartlight.org/fast
        \_ Is this for real?  If so what about idolatory being a grave sin?
2003/9/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10080 Activity:nil 75%like:10090
9/4     Fast for Bush!
        http://www.heartlight.org/fast
2003/9/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10068 Activity:nil
9/3     Bush happy to use emigre's lies:
        link:csua.org/u/444
2003/9/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10061 Activity:nil
9/3     http://www.business-standard.com/archives/2003/jan/50310103.016.asp
        Republican party outsources fund raising to India telemarketers.
        All hail bush!
        \_ Urban legend.
           \_ Cite!
              \_ Testify!!!
           \_ Anybody see The War Room, about Clinton's first campaign?
              They had video of Bush talking up jobs for Americans next to
              footage of GOP banners being printed in a S. American country.
           \_ http://www.differentstrings.info/archives/002552.html
              Probably some Republican but not the RNC.
              \_ awwwww.  the republicans are a victim of irresponsible
                 journalism by the washington times. cry me a fucking river.
                 \_ Nice to know where you stand.  I'd like journalistic honesty
                    to be non-partisan.
        \_ More obnoxious is the spamminess of the (verifiably) RNC sanctioned
           email campaigns.
2003/8/29 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29512 Activity:high
8/28    I thought this was funny enough to repost and non-partisan so you
        can all laugh without feeling guilty.
        "The White House released a videotape of President Bush meeting with
        his cabinet, and today Iraqi officials say they believe the tape is
        authentic."  -- Jay Leno
        \_ Leno > Letterman.
           \_ And O'Brien rules them all.
              \_ Jon Stewart p0wns them all.
        \_ pretty good.
2003/8/29-2004/2/14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12249 Activity:moderate
2/13    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4262421
        "ominous parallels between fiscal overstretch in imperial Bourbon
                France and contemporary America."
        \_ financial doom and gloom predicted blah blah blah.  Its nice that
           they mention the parellells exist, but annoying that they dont
           elaborate at all.
        \_ Only Kerry can save us!  He has such great ideas!  Like, uhm, well
           he's not George Bush!
           \_ You mean like cutting expenses and raising taxes? What
              a nutty guy!
2003/8/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29436 Activity:very high
8/22    Which court has higher power, a US District court or a
        state Supreme Court?
        \_ Federal courts have jurisdiction over Constitutional
           matters, which, unfortunately thanks to the loose
           constructionists (ie. libs), basically means everything.
           So in practice the Fed trumps all.
           \_ Actually, this isn't a liberal/conservative thing, it's
              part of the constitution, Article VI and the precedence
              of McCulloc v. Maryland. However, the Bill of Rights does
              provision that non-delegated rights (read, enumerated rights)
              are reserved for the states. So in other words, if the Fed
              doesn't give a crap about xyz, then the state has the right
              to do xyz. A prime example of this was slavery, which before the
              civil war and 13th was offically a state issue (with
              the exception of the Missouri Compromise when things got out
              of hand).
                        \_ States do not have rights, only people do.
                           \_ Don't forget corporations!  They have rights too.
                              \_ Not really.  Ask Nike.
                           The Constitution was framed to enumerate
                           their state governments.
                           powers delegated to the Federal government,
                           everything else defaulted to the people and
                           their state governments.  The Constitution
                           was meant to restrict the Federal government,
                           not citizens.
                           \_ That's why the 2nd amendment exists, so the
                              government can restrict gun ownership.  Oh wait,
                              uhm, errr, nevermind!
              \_ "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
                  Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
                  reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
                  Amendment X, US Constitution.  In other words, if it's
                  not in the Constitution (or its Amendments), it's a
                  State issue.
                  \_ Uh, not exactly. It basically means any Law passed by
                     Congress is the Law of the Land. If Congress passes
                     an unconstitutional law then it can be contested and
                     overturned by the Supreme Court. However, Congress can
                     try to amend the Constitution so that its law is
                     constitutional. A prime example is Income Tax.
                     \_ Howzabout this:  if it's not in the Constitution,
                        it's a State issue; however, the Fed. Gov. can
                        make it a Federal matter by passing an amendment
                        or passing a law that the courts fail to strike
                        down as unconstitutional.
           \_ looks like the conservatives, particularly Ashcroft, are the
              ones trying to deny state rights these days.  -tom
              \_ hey, you're your dead senator's wife.  what's the problem?
              \_ a politician flip-flopped when it suited him.. really rare
              \_ The Justic Department does not enact laws, they enforce them.
                 National defense is the primary responsibility of the Federal
                 government.
                 \_ True, but the Justice Department also puts heavy pressure
                    on lawmakers of the President's party to toe its line.
                    And sometimes it quite simply ignores laws.  -John
                    \_ "Heavy pressure"?  Golly, that's mean of them!  Those
                       lawmakers that are only held to account by the voters
                       are under "heavy pressure" by some paper pusher
                       appointees in the JD!  Mean, mean, mean, I say!
                    \_ [plonked again]
2003/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29415 Activity:insanely high
8/20    http://207.44.245.159/article3807.htm
        It is obviously time to give the Germans another ass-whipping.
        \_ um, this site will be taken down by the government in no time.
           Why do you think it has no domain name?      -long live GWB
        \_ This was eye-opening.  Thanks for posting it.
        \_ To what in particular do you disagree?  with his stated facts?
                \_ 'Vorwaerts' is very closely affiliated with the Social
                   Democratic Party.  Their motto translates to "partisan,
                   political, initiative".  Draw your own confusions.  -John
                   political, initiative".  Draw your own confusions.
                                        -John
                   \_ You draw a vague comparison with a foreign political
                      party and a motto... I'm ok with this, unless you
                      believe you're making a point about something--
                      or are we supposed to follow "Social Democrats" to
                      "Socialism" to "Communism" to "If you're aren't with
                      us, you're with the terrorists"?
                        \_ That article was published in 'Vorwaerts'.  As
                           a quasi-organ of the SDP, it is bound to have a
                           slant.  It's not a vague comparison.  -John
                           \_ When was the last time the biggest threat to
                              freedom and security--both for you and the
                              world--the US president and his
                              world-- was the US president and his
                              administration?  The article has some very
                              good points.
                      \_ Draw your own conclusions.
2003/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29412 Activity:nil
8/20    http://www.GWBush04.com/archives/000192.php
        Patriotapalooza.
2003/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29367 Activity:high
8/15    A short essay on labels in America:
        http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-08-03-1.html
        \_ It's really funny that someone would erase a link to an essay
           advocating moderation.  You guys crack me up!  Restored (twice).
           advocating moderation.  You guys crack me up!  Restored (thrice).
2003/8/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29366 Activity:high
8/15    New York power outages: another fine victory for deregulation.
        \_ you're a genius.  have a cookie.
        \_ Look at the bright side.  MS Blaster won't spread as fast.  (Or is
           that the dark side?)
        \_ You're a nut.  It had nothing to do with deregulation.
           \_ Is that you, Pete Wilson?
           \_ It may or may not. But you are correct in that OP is jumping
              to conclusions. I blame that evil schemer, Dr. Chaos!
              \_ http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0815-07.htm
                 \_ Palast is that ultra-leftist kook who thinks that Bush
                    stole the election in Florida.
         \_ I don't think Palast is a complete kook, I read his book,
            his main point is that voting machines in predominately
            white counties in Florida would "spit back out" what it
            considered an improperly filled out ballet and in
            predominately black counties in Florida the voting machines
            were configured to just meekly accept an improperly
            filled out ballot, remarkably different behavior than
            in the former example.  He doesn't claim gwbush is
            directly responsible for this but someone or some
            organization was, probably the same people who came
            up with the great idea to hire a private firm to
            knock a bunch of ex cons off of the voting rolls in Florida,
            which is fine I guess except no one bothered to check their
            work and a lot of people were unable to vote on election
            day. - danh
                \_ Nice troll, dan.  From here on down none of this has
                   a single thing to do with the power outage, power
                   deregulation or anything else.  While you're trolling
                   from the left you might go check out the various trolls
                   from the right who would tell you about the leftist
                   media cheating the voting in the panhandle, the military
                   who got screwed in (D) controlled counties, how those ex
                   cons weren't allowed to vote by law, that the (D) had a
                   phone bank running in Texas(!!!) calling old people to
                   tell them they'd voted for Buchanan before anything had
                   even happened meaning they were planning on contesting the
                   election on the butterfly ballot but only if it didn't go
                   their way, and that the full state wide recount had bush
                   losing by three (3!!!) votes in a single scenario because
                   (pay attention) those nice rich white areas with all those
                   fascist republicans using their fancy shamncy voting
                   machines had the same error rate as the punch cards once
                   someone looked at them by hand, and most of the errors
                   were in Gore's favor.  Now that you've trolled the motd
                   with the partisan crap and I've counter trolled it and
                   a few other below have all added their bit of strict
                   partisanship, let's let it go and move on.  You've got
                   another election to lose coming up and your party would
                   be better served if you directed your energy to the
                   future instead of the past.  Besides, who the hell wanted
                   Gore in office on 9/12 anyway?  Not even Gore.
                        \_ bush did steal the election in Florida
                           \_ Excellent.  Well backed statement.  You got
                              into Cal?  You're on the football team?
                           \_ Even though a later count confirmed he had
                              a narrow lead?
                                \_ 1) some counts had him winning some
                                   had him losing. (In fact the general
                                   thought is if just a palm beach recount
                                   Bush won, if a Florida wide recount Bush
                                   lost.  2) once it didn't matter
                                   anymore the counts were a lot less
                                   thurough. 3) Bush stole the elections pre
                                   counts by agressivly denying the rights
                                   of people to vote by falsely declaring them
                                   felons and knocking them off the voter
                                   roles.
                                   \_ about (1): 'general thought'?  Without
                                      numbers you can think all you want...
                                      but it's just partisan wishful thinking.
                                      CNN ran a story a month after
                                      the recounts, saying an unofficial
                                      recount completed, and would have given
                                      Bush the victory anyways.  That
                                      unofficial recount had some nice
                                      advantages (for instance, since it wasn't
                                      important, neither democrats nor
                                      republicans tried to influence it in
                                      an illicit way, so it's as close to
                                      impartial data as you will get).
                                      (2): Do you have anything more than
                                      anecdotal evidence to back this up?
                                      If anything, I expect the recounts to
                                      be more, not less accurate, if special
                                      interests no longer breathe down the
                                      necks of those poor volunteers (see (1)).
                                      \_ Recounts mainly consist of checking
                                         the numbers at the main office against
                                         the local numbers.  No ballot checking,
                                         no actual recounting.
                                      (3): Do you have any data to back this
                                      up?
                                      \_ Check the New York Times, Washington
                                         Post, etc.  This, for obvious reasons
                                         was given very little attention in
                                         the press, but the abuses by Katherine
                                         Harris and Jeb Bush against the voters
                                         are documented.
                            standard many times over...  Is it your defense
                                      \_ google for "bush florida black
                            voter roles felon" and you will find a lot
                            of articles talking about just this issue
                            http://www.commondreams.org/views/121000-106.htm
                            is one.
                                      At any rate, the best you can say is
                                      there is some uncertainty, not that
                                      BUSH WITHOUT A DOUBT STOLE THE ELECTION.
                                      You are a partisan moron, btw.
                                      \_ one thing i think we should all agree
                                         on, though, is that regardless of who
                                         "really" won the 2000 election, the
                                         voting process in america has some
                                         *very* serious problems that need
                                         to be dealt with immediately.
                                         if the 2000 election were a scietific
                                         experiment to determine who should
                                         be president, the only result one
                                         could publish would be "inconclusive."
                                         that should not be allowed to happen.
                                         i think all of our time would be
                                         better spent trying to work towards
                                   read the decisions.
                                         better election process in the future
                                         than getting all worked up about 2000.
                         \_ The USSC decision was 7-2 in favor of Bush.  He
                            won, period.  All the demagoguery and race
                            baiting can't change that fact.  Of course,
                            if you start divining the will of the
                            voter based on some completely arbitary
                            standard many times over...  Is it your contention
                            that Democratic voters are so stupid
                            they can't fill out a punch card?  Voters should
                            be required to pass an intelligence test
                            and if you are a net recipient of money from
                            the government you can't vote.
                            Read the damn USSC decision.
                            \_ http://www.supremecourtus.gov/florida.html
                            \_ the 7-2 case said that Florida could decide what
                               to do.  Florida followed Florida election law
                               and was looking at every ballot to look for
                               things like hanging chads.  The case went back
                               to the Supreme Court and this time in a 5-4
                               case the court said that Florida's election
                               laws be damned, they were awarding Florida
                               to Bush.  Get your history right.
                                \_ I set this trap deliberately to see if
                                   you read the decision - you obviously
                                   did not.  The USSC decision was 7-2
                                   that the recounts were unconstitutional
                                   under equal protection and due process.
                                   Look for your own intellectual honesty
                                   read the decisions.  Article 2 of
                                   the Constitution dictates plenary
                                   power to choose electors resides with
                                   the legislature - not the unelected
                                   state judiciary.  Everything you wrote
                                   is wrong and is rebutted in the
                                   several decisions.
                                   \_ just out of curiosity, are you refering
                                      to "Per curiam opinion in Bush v. Gore;
                                      Rehnquist, C. J., concurring; Stevens,
                                      Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ.,
                                      dissenting" from the supreme court
                                      link above?  i'll go read it, but i want
                                      to make sure it's not a red herring.
              \_ Armchair quarterbacks in politics need to find a life...
                 \_ laugh while you can, monkey boy!  soon the liberal media
                    will start reading the motd and their vast conspiracy
                    will crumble when they are exposed to the Truth at last.
                    \_ Too late:
                       http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=257&row=0
2003/8/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29341 Activity:high
8/13    Bush appoints Daniel Pipes to Institue of Peace:
        http://www.msnbc.com/news/950969.asp?cp1=1
        \_ Institute of Peace...Orwell would be proud!
           \_ We are coming upon the 20th anniversary of 1984.
              \- 1948 is from, 1948! --psb
              \- 1984 is from, 1948! --psb
           \_ Even bother to spend time on his web page?  Ever hear him
              speak?
2003/8/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29326 Activity:nil
8/12    Bush Planned 9/11 Attack!
        http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/911bush.html
        \_ Yes, and I am Osama Bin Laden.
2003/8/12-13 [ERROR, uid:29324, category id '18005#32.4632' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29324 Activity:insanely high
8/11    Al Gore speaks to http://moveon.org:
        http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/08/08/gore_speech/index_np.html
        \_ time for Al Gore to "move on" himself
        \_ hear hear.  Gore has very good speech writers. -nivra
        \_ Wow, that really was a good speech.
           \_ Yeah, it's a good one when you're hearing what you want to hear
              even if it isn't true.  And no, it isn't a good speech.  It's
              \_ Name some instances of lies in there.
              just a very standard speech.  Nothing in there is going to rev up
              the crowds or get people out to vote for Gore, for any other
              Democrat or against Bush.  There's nothing new in it.  It's
              uninspiring like the man himself.  "Gore is a stiff" was the
              mantra in 2000, and 1999, and 1998, and 1997, all the way back
              to when he was running for President himself (you remember that,
              right?).  This isn't newsmedia created distortion.  This isn't
              a Steve Job's Apple commercial.  This is reported for 12+ years
              because it's true.  The man is a stiff.
              \_ In 2000 it was about personality-- Gore was stiff and
                 Bush was the honest, plainspoken Everyman.  I was on the
                 fence back then, but I've since decided I'd rather have a
                 stiff than a liar.  -- conservative
                 \_  he was most un-stiff on SNL. He was hilarious.
                 \_  also, didn't fiscal responsibility used to be a major
                     part of American conservatism?  you should check out
                     http://republicansfordean.blogspot.com
                     and vote for Dean in the primary.
                     \_ No Republican can be for a socialist like Dean. That's
                        like Jews for Jesus but worse.
                        \_ A socialist? Dean?  Read his platform.  Dean is
                           more conservative than Bush, except he's not a
                           religious loon or a born-again military man.
                           No more listening to talk of "evildoers."
                           http://deanforamerica.com click on "Issues".
                                \_ Better yet look at his record in Vermont,
                                   which has the 4th highest tax burden in
                                   in the US.  California is up there
                                   as well - surprise surprise.
                                   \_ Vermont is also fiscally solvent and
                                      has 96% health care coverage for children.
                                        \_ Oh, its for the children.  I see
                                           now.  Too bad hillary care failed
                                           in 93, eh comrade?  Vermonts
                                           budget tripled from 91' to '02.
                                           Lets just socialize everything.
                                           \_ You prefer destabilizing entire
                                              geopolitical zones, breeding
                                              the next generation of terrorists,
                                              and running our economy into the
                                              ground while foisting religion into
                                              government?  Attaboy.  Let's roll.
                                              \_  Im sorry you cant understand
                                                  the necessary geopolitical
                                                  risks Bush is taking.  The
                                                  Middle East must cleaned up,
                                                  or in 10-15 years the fights
                                                  will be in the streets of
                                                  America.  Exactly what
                                                  laws are foisting
                                                  Christianity on this
                                                  Country?  This country is
                                                  historically Christian, and
                                                  a very strong argument can
                                                  be made that social decay
                                                  is because we have strayed
                                                  from any spirituality.
              \_ Blah blah blah.
                 \_ Truly brilliant reply!  You'll knock em dead with that
                    depth of thought and hard core logic!  I love it when I
                    hit home so hard people like you feel the need to reply
                    but are left with nothing to say.  Made my day.  Thanks!
                    \_ It was reported for 12 years straight because its easier
                       than thinking up something new to say - ! the person
                       that said "blah blah blah"
                       \_ If it wasn't true they wouldn't be saying it 12+
                          years later.  New things sell news.
                    \_ My post had as much content as yours. Read yours again.
                       "it isn't a good speech, it's standard, gore is a stiff,
                       just a long boring drivel with no points to debate.
                       Take it to Free Republic.
                       \_ See?  There you go.  At least now you're trying.
                          Sort of.  Maybe next time you'll add something or
                          refute what is said.  Is calling me a freeper meant
                          to be your lowest insult?  I think they're idiots
                          but if you think I'm a freeper you don't know what
                          a freeper is.  At least try to understand what a
                          thing is before you accuse someone of being it.
                          \_ Blah blah blah.
              \_ It's so true, you hear what you want to hear.
                 \_ Since Gore is politically dead, I don't care either way
                    how stiff or dynamic he is.  His speech means nothing.
              \_ Actually, I felt the speech was fairly original. Thus, my
                 original comments praising the speech writers.  It's not a
                 speech that's meant to "rev up crowds or get people out to
                 vote for Gore."  It's a speech that presents the recent
                 events in a slightly different light, tying in Bush's
                 "compassionate conservatism" with the "ideological
                 righteousness" of right-wing Christian conservatives.
                 Certainly he didn't bring up any new facts or reveal
                 new information.  It was just a cogent, powerful summary
                 of his opinion on the recent events and the recent actions
                 of the Administration.  Oh, and as far as "stiffness" goes.
                 All we have is the transcript of the speech, and I'm sure
                 his presentation of the speech has more to do with how
                 "stiff" he appears than the content of the speech has. -nivra
                 \_ It was a lecture.  The man sounds like one of my less
                    interesting history profs.  If there was nothing new and
                    everyone already knew it all and it wasn't to rev anyone
                    up, then why is he giving it?  To hear his own voice?
                    \_ read my post. I didn't say there was "nothing new." I
                       said he introduced no new "facts" or "information,"
                       and also said it presented the events in a "different
                       light."  Basically, I think it's an interesting take
                       on the situation, and that's what's original about it.
                       Oh, and also that it was well-written and persuasive,
                       although it did have minor problems, as well. -nivra
                    \_ In other words, he summarized and analyzed the
                       information on the Bush administration, and it doesn't
                       look good if you care about America. Gore in '04!
           \_ yup. it felt very presidential. too bad he didn't have that
              air about him during the elections in 2000.  -nivra
              \_ I think that bad air in 2000 was somewhat of a media creation.
                 The media likes to simplify elections into stories that play
                 well on TV - this isn't necessarily a political bias but
                 the nature of TV.  The story from early on was "Bush is a nice
                 normal guy" and "Gore is a stiff."  Anything that conformed
                 to that storyline was hyped up, and anything that deviated from
                 it was played down or ignored.  Television is quite a reality
                 distortion device - its too bad real life isn't so simple.
                 \_ free yourself from the filter: http://www.cspan.org
                    this site has all of the cspan channels as well as cspan
                    radio streaming over the web for free.
                        \_ CSPAN is my favorite channel, along with the
                           the history channel.  -freeper guy
                           \_ you should still check out the web site.  it's
                              like having cspan, cspan2 and cspan3, all with
                              TIVO.  it's not like you need a nice picture for
                              talking heads anyway.  for instance the speech
                              this thread is about is archived there.
        \_ http://www.moveon.org
           they have a streaming vid of speech and text, without salon's crap.
        \_ Ah yes, Al 'no controlling legal authority' Gore.  Its ok to
           take millions in campaign contributions from Chinese Communists
           as long as he makes you feel good.
           \_ No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it does not
              become more compelling.
             \_ Democrats Are Fined $243,000 for Fund-Raising Violations
                http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/754651/posts
                Clinton and Chinese Missiles
        "... Hughes Space and Communications Company of violating U.S.
        national security 123 times by knowingly sending detailed missile
        and space technology directly to the Chinese army."
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/822768/posts
                I can continue with many more links, but I'll let you rebut.
        \_ Go read the Thompson report for a more accurate and in many
           ways, far more disturbing picture of both Democratic and
           Republican fund raising abuse:
           http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/sireport.htm
           PS $243,000 ain't millions and almost all of the money Clinton
              raised was not from "Chinese Communists" it was from Taiwanese
              and Indonesians. That doesn't make it right, but it does,
              however, make you someone who swallows Right Wing propaganda.
2003/8/8-9 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:29284 Activity:kinda low 50%like:29280
8/8   http://csua.org/u/3vw
      That campaign site is a gold mine.
        \_ Old news.  The question everyone wants to know is...does the
           action figure come with a 1:6 scale cup to memorialize the drug
           test he skipped out on in 1973?
           \_ Just how many drug test have YOU skipped out on ?
              \_ None.  AND I haven't run for president.
2003/8/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29246 Activity:very high
8/5     Be careful what you read in public. Sad what America is turning into:
        http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2003-07-17/rant.html
        \_ that's nothing, http://www.csua.org/u/3tx
           is much more frightening - danh
                \_ The public defender even recommended 4 months, so
                   clearly this is not the whole unbiased story.
           \_ much more frightening and much more believable.
           \_ this particular type of hysteria predates 9/11 by a good 20
              years.  ever since Wargames came out, prosecuters and judges
              have been on the lookout for "evil geniuses."  unfortunately,
              they set the bar pretty low both for evil and for genius.
              a guy from my highschool got crucified by the local law
              enforcement types for some crap on his bbs, and i'm pretty
              sure the numbnuts prosecutors were convinced he was going to
              start WWIII from his commodore 64.
           \_ this kinda thing use to be covered by "free speech", but I
              guess that's a thing of the past. Heil Bush! Heil Ashcroft!
              \_ You guys do realize he was encouraging people to throw
                 maltav coctails at police, right? I'm not sure that was
                 ever ok.
        \_ Here's the article that guy was reading:
           http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2003-06-11/cover.html
                   and whine.
                \_ This same rhetoric was incessant during the Reagan
                   administration.  We saw the result - althought, granted
                   Bush is no Reagan.  Fox news has ~ 2 million viewers,
                   compared to upwards of 40 million for the broadcast
                   networks.  I enjoy reading you sissified twits squirm
                   and whine, so keep Raging against the Machine.
                   \_ are you sure it's 2 million and not closer to 100 million?
          \_ This is an unreadable screed, even to one who is generally
             sypathetic to the position.
2003/8/3 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29225 Activity:high
8/3     Good news, Bush will live for 4 more years.
        \_ You win this weekend's "non sequitur motd comment" award.  Don't
           spend it all in one place!
           \_ You obviously don't read the news very often.
              \_ ok, i just looked at the newyork times, cnn, foxnews, bbc
                 and slashdot, and i still have no idea what the fuck you're
                 talking about.  must be part of that liberal media conspiracy.
                 \_ *sigh*  It was in an article on CNN.  Although you might
                    have to, like, think, dude.  Like whoa.
2003/7/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29198 Activity:high
7/31    Poll, your hobbies:
        TV: .
        running for governor in CA: .
        \_ I know a guy that's running for fun.
          \_ how much to run for fun?
        vid game: ...
        bashing bush: ..
        defending Bush: .
        bike: .
        linux: .
        \_ that's not a hobby.  it's a sickness.
           \_ it's not a sickness.  it's just a second rate OS with good PR.
        golf:
        debauchery: .
        beer: .
        cooking:
        irritating tom holub: ...
        \_ fun but kind of easy so it doesn't take much time
        fighting the conservative republican corporate run media: .
        fighting the liberal media: .
        sex with partner(s): ..
        masturbation: ..
        fighting reverse racial discrimination: .
        \_ no such thing.  you're either discriminated against and denied
           jobs, housing, various benefits, etc, due to your race or you're
           not.  are = racial discrimination.  not = not.
2003/7/24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29122 Activity:nil
7/23    Speaking of characters in politicians.  what disturbs me the most is
        not that President Bush, intentional or not, mislead the public, but
        rather, as the issue getting out of hand, President Bush started to
        blame the subodinate for things which *HIMSELF* should of bear the
        full responsibility of.  What disturb me even further is that the
        general public seems to accept this downshift of responsbility and
        allow President Bush get away with it.
        \_ Dubya:  The Great Delegator.  I noticed this as well, and it
           doesn't bother me that much, but I'd much prefer a brainier
           president.
        \_ I am a Bush basher, but this one does not bother me much. It is
           just a different management style. Bush probably really doesn't
           do much but smile for the cameras. I am sure he is telling the
           truth when he says that he has no idea of the stuff he says is
           true or not. "The President of the United States in not a fact
           checker." -GWB
        \_ You are right, this is much much worse than taking millions of
           dollars in campaign contributions from PLA generals, all the
           while relinquishing all eight of our nuclear weapon designs.
           The horror.
2003/7/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29113 Activity:moderate
7/23    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/index.html
        I didn't like him as President but he was sure good at the politics
        thing.  It isn't what he says here but what he doesn't say to his
        fellow party memebers: "you won't win 2004 on Iraq and WMD, it's the
        economy, stupid!"  He was and still is a brilliant politician.  Too
        bad he had no character or I might have switched parties.
        \_ Wait, so you would have loved to be on the winning team, even if
           you're not a Democrat at heart?  Who's the one with no character
           here?
           \_ Put away the axe, man.  I don't think your interpretation
              matches what the OP was trying to say.
           \_ Character != blindly stick with one political party.  That
              would be *your* world view.  Me?  I actually vote for the
              more desirable candidates without looking at the little (R)
              (D) or (I) after their name.  You can go stick your head in
              a pig or whack yourself in the head with your axe, your choice,
              because I believe it's ok to make choices in life.  --op
              \_ He plays with woman, that is his personal issue.
                Kennedy, FDR, T. Jefferson also played
                with women.  Politicians are politicians, we should judge
                them by their effectiveness and their ideological alignments,
                not their personal characters.  If you judge leader by their
                personal life, Hitler would be a godsend because he doesn't
                drink, doesn't play with women neither.
2003/7/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29034 Activity:high
7/14    http://salon.com/news/wire/2003/07/14/bush_intelligence/index.html
        Tagline: Bush defends intelligence as "darn good".
        My thoughts: At last!  The media is questioning his intelligence!
        \_ This is pretty dumb, even for a liberal. :p
           \_ The reaction?  It was the first thing that came to mind.  It's
              not witty, but possibly briefly amusing.  Or how about the
              most powerful man in the world using the phrase "darn good"?
              \_ It also goes to show how Californian y'all are.
                 \_ totally.
              \_ whats with with "darn good"? when is the last time you used
                 "man" or "dude" or "chick" or any of a million other slang
                 or non-standard expressions?  the last thing the country needs
                 is an english prof as president.
                 \_ I'm not suggesting an english prof but perhaps we could
                    settle on someone with better English than a freeper.
        \_ Having to defend your honesty is never a good position to be in.
2003/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29012 Activity:high
7/11    What hypothetical scenarios has to happen in order for Bush to lose
        re-election in 2004?  I'll offers a couple:
        a) american soldiers getting killed by an angry iraqi mob and his
           body dragged through the streets.  All on live TV.  Just like what
           happened in Somalia.
        b) stock market goes back into the pre-war lows.  Dow has to go below
           7000.  And another big coporation collapsing like Enron.
        c) real photos of bush sniffing cocaine.
        \_ a) wont matter, been there done that, b) that'd do it, c) even if
           they were real most would think they were fake anyway, the public
           has seen way too many photoshop jobs by now.
        \_ Democrats get a clue and remove head from ass. Only the dumbass
           Dems would've let him win in the first place when he was the
           less popular candidate.
           \_ The opinions of dead people in Chicago don't count.
              \_ Nor do the opinions of black people in florida.
                 \_ nonsense.  completely made up.  however if you're on the
                    florida panhandle the press is likely to announce the
                    polls are closed and your state's voting is done an hour
                    early.  or maybe someone will enforce the local deadlines
                    and standards for military votes in violation of previous
                    federal law and agreement.  sorry, your feelings dont jive
                    with the facts on this one.  although if you're black and
                    in pennsylvania we count your vote many times in some
                    precincts where the total vote count for Gore was over
                    100%.  The New Math?
        d) Tenet took the blame for the uranium thing right?  Credible CIA /
           Bush administration underlings come out as whistleblowers.
           \_ This will be difficult for the dems to use since tenet is a dem
              who was initially appointed by clinton and kept by bush.
              Nothing like having an important member of the opposition on
              your side.  And don't forget, clinton already admitted he
              believed the same things bush did.
        e) Economy continues to slide, with unemployment going up until
           election day.
        f) A fucking miracle. GWB is the new Teflon President.
        \_ domestically, GWB is a lib, what are all you democrat ninnies
           complaining about?  On foreign affairs, he is reshaping the world
           and transforming our strategic objectives, we are in an era
           not seen since WWII.  You have worked yourselves into such a frenzy
           you completely miss this.
           \_ no, he is not a lib. in what way is this era like WWII?
              what a dumbass.
                \_ Please cite meaningful conservative policy he's
                   enacted - ooh a 30 $ billion a year tax cut out of
                   2++ trillion federal expenditures.  The US geopolitical
                   strategy has been redefined to fit the post
                   Cold War, this significant departure will shape the
                   world for 20-30 years. Clinton and GB I wasted
                   the peace dividend and their 12 years in office in
                   this respect.
                \_ I love how your idea of count point is to blurt out some
                   drivel and personal insult.  That may work in the dorms,
                   kiddo, but no one here with a brain larger than a pea is
                   reading that crap, nodding their head, and going "uh huh!
                   yeah! what he said!"  say something worth the bits or
                   don't bother at all.  Debate is much more enjoyable when
                   the other side actually shows up.
                   \_ i don't bother anymore. i've read the motd long
                      enough to know when it's useless to argue with the
                      people who express opinions like the above...
                      "democrat ninnies"? oh yeah that's intelligent.
                      i simply point out some of the more ridiculous
                      stupidity. the whole iraq thing was such a joke.
                      the tax cut was worse than a joke. bush's nepotism,
                      policies do not win elections in this country.
                      his stupidity in speeches, his tactless diplomacy...
                      like the poster below it makes me embarrassed for
                      the country.
                \_ George W. Bush is an embarrassment to our country.
                   He may have brilliant people on his staff or whatever,
                   but he's just plain stupid.
                   \_ You and Ann Richards should hang out sometime.  He may
                      be an idiot as a student, and I think his foreign policy
                      sucks, but to the extent that his job is to win elections
                      he is *very* smart and good at his job.  Good or bad
                      policies do not win elections in this country.  He's
                      not an idiot at all at the things he cares about.
                      \_ in what way did that require smarts of him? he has
                         been surrounded by coddlers and coaches all the time.
                         the man can barely talk straight. his connections got
                         him where he is.
                         \_ when he was a freshman rushing DKE, he was the only
                            person among the frosh who could recite the name of
                            every single member of DKE having just met them
                            once.  The ability to instantly network with people
                            and make the right kinds of friends quickly does
                            not qualify one to lead the free world, but to
                            deny that bush has this skill is a mistake.
                            that mbeing said, I should point out that
                            the Yale DKE guys are
                            a bunch of fucking hooligan criminals(I used
                            to live next to their house).
2003/7/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29000 Activity:very high
7/10    "Bush Knew Iraq Info Was False"
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/eveningnews/main560449.shtml
        \_ What baffled me was that I think there was a good
           case for invading Iraq.  Bush just failed to make it for some
           reason, and choese to bullshit his way through instead.
           \_ Powell wanted UN support, if not a UN coalition.  The only
              way to get UN support was to show Saddam still had WMD in
              violation of previous UN resolutions.  They couldn't find WMD,
              hence the problem.
        \_ this liberal media bias is getting out of hand. it doesn't
           matter. the U.S. needs to kick every hostile states' ass.
           \_ So its okay to lie about the reasons for war and the killing
              of soldiers, but lying about a blowjob is an impeachable
           Bush did the same thing a month ago, but no one said anything.
              offense?  I donut geddit.
              \_ lying under oath is impeachable offense. lying to
                 the public is expected.
              \_ The problem is that the headline doesn't match the story.  The
                 headline vastly overstates the article.  A better headline
                 would be:  "CIA officials warned members of the President's
                 National Security Council staff the intelligence was not good
                 enough to make the flat statement Iraq tried to buy uranium
                 from Africa."  (to cut and paste from the article)  The
                 headline is pure spin.
                 \_ I believe the implication is that if the NSC staff
                    was warned, Bush would have heard about it, unless you
                    want to blame Rice.
                    \_ Implication is different than fact.
        \_ It also bothers me that Blair is taking all this flak for
           switching from "finding [actual] WMD" to "finding WMD programmes";
           Bush did the same thing a month ago, but the U.S. press didn't
           note the change in wording at all.
           \_ Yeah poor Tony.  The British press are so vicious.  I agree with
              you.  They should've left Blair alone.
              \_ At least our media knows how to be patriotic.
2003/7/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28900 Activity:high
7/2     "Bring em' on", Bush says of Iraqi Attacks:
        http://csua.org/u/3gg
        \_ "We got plenty tough force there to make sure the situation is
           secure".
        \_ Easy for him to say.  He's not in the line of fire.
           \_ he landed that plane on a carrier, though.  that must have
              been rough.  Wasn't he a combat pilot in Vietnam?
              \_ he was on the plane that landed on the carrier, but even
                 the white house staff never said he piloted that plane.
                 Bush Jr was AWOL for his Vietnam duties; he supposedly
                 flew planes in Texas though.
                 \_ I know.  I just wanted to get someone else to admit this.
                    \_ Um, mazel tov?
            \_ let's see your boy Klinton say the same thing with same effect.
               \_ What effect?  Looking like a moron?  Your boy George has
                  that one all sewn up.
            \_ There is a difference between 'loathing' and disdain for
               military exhibited by Clinton and Bush's handling of
               military affairs.  The national guard does not put morons
               in fighter jets.
2003/7/1 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28883 Activity:high
7/1     Things sure are going great with Bush's little nation building
        schemes. 1000 American dead so far and counting!
        http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/afghanistan.html
        \_ 1000 isn't bad.  Over 5000 were lost in the first *hours* of DDay.
           \_ against an enemy that murdered 10M+ civilians and had a damned
              good chance at taking over the planet.  Taliban routed?  Good.
              Saddamn out of power?  Good.  Did the latter have to happen?
              No.
              \_ Which planet do you live on, Mars? The Taliban couldn't
                 even hold on to most of a medium sized country against
                 their own bandits.
                 \_ I think he was talking about Nazi Germany & DDay.
2003/6/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Religion] UID:28666 Activity:nil
6/7     http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/07/national/07DEPO.html?ex=1055563200&en=85b98a6079118552&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
        Dubya is deporting 13,000 Muslims who came forward to sign up for his
        registration list who have no ties to terrorism.
        \_ Yes but hes giving them each a free pig as consolation.
           This story was written by Blair no doubt.
           \_ Racist!
2003/5/31-6/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Science/Space] UID:28597 Activity:kinda low
5/31    Who here has worked at JPL? What's it like there?
        \_ Think Matrix...
           \_ So everyone at JPL over-philosophises everything, wears dark
              glasses indoors, has super powers that allow them to ignore the
              laws of physics but don't use them, and looks better on a
              computer screen than in real life?  Where do I sign up?!
        \_ Not Half Life?  The Administrator is pretty evil.
        \_ Talked to couple Cal Tech Geeks working in colaboration with
           JPL.  They told me that a lot of interesting projects got
           axed in Bush's tax plan.  Make sure whatever you are interested in
           gets the budget for it.
        \_ I work at JPL. What do you want to know? E-mail me. --dim
2003/5/27-28 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28563 Activity:high
5/26    Bush Ban on Chinese Imports
        http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/27/133053.shtml
        \_ Good for Bush.
        \_ Even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.
                \_ I love Chinese proverb. Where can I find more?
           \_ Yeah, it would be terrible to give Bush credit for doing
              something you like.
              \_ If Bush did it, he can't like it.  If Bush found and shared
                 the Fountain of Youth, he'd complain about how all these
                 newly young people are hiking through the woods and killing
                 the owls' natural habitat and it's all Bush's fault.  There's
                 nothing like raw blind hatred to get you through the day.
                 \_ mmm, conservative hypocracy...
                    \_ I don't think that word means what you think it means.
                    \_ Hell, I don't think that word is spelled the way you
                       think it is.
                    \_ Conservatives do not believe in hate. They believe
                       in tolerance and using reason to convince their
                       opponents. See Rush Limbaugh, Micheal Savage, Ann
                       Coulter, Fox News, etc.
                        \_ and if that doesn't work, we can always invade
                           the country in the name of WMD and democracy.
        \_ Generally, not a Bush fan - op
        \_ hypocrisy written all over.   If anything, USA is the one
           who has the global ambition of be the hegemony of the world.
           It is USA that has the 2nd large stockpiles of WMD and had
           history of unleashing on defendless civilians for "moral"
           "communication" and "scientific" reasons.  USA is the
           largest arms dealer in the world.  And many of its product
           is also manufactured by prisoners.
2003/5/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Academia/GradSchool] UID:28514 Activity:high
5/21    Explosion reported at Yale University.  Check AP wires.
        \_ I'll wander over and check it out  -new haven resident
        \_ I was just on the roof of the yale engineering building with
           binoculars checking shit out.  Engineering is a couple
           blocks form the law school.  there is nothing to see.
           the reports of "white smoke rising over the city" are almost
           certainly some numnutz reporter's observation of the steam from the
           physical plant building right next door to the law school.
           There are lots of cops and reporters, obviously, but they have
           reached a steady state by now. No one was hurt, and there have been
           no threats against yale or new haven.  Barbara Bush is not in
           New Haven right now(yale just finished exams last week.)
        \_ No reported injuries so far.  When did it happen?
        \_ Confined to one mail room, Bush was on campus a few hours prior.
           \_ He was in New London, not New Haven.
              \_  ...briefly, earlier in the day.  almost certainly unrelated.
        \_ I hope Rory hasn't got there yet!
        \_ It's a University.  Shit blows up at schools all the time.
        \_ Did someone leave the gas on in the lounge kitchen?  Yes, I know
           some people said it was the mail room.
           \_ Current wherabouts of Ted Kazynski?
              \_ Federal Pen, duh.
2003/5/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28512 Activity:high
5/21    Is the term "rice-boy" taillights (with respect to cars)
        offensive?
        \_ to some asians, yes.
           \_ I'm Asian and the Asian friends I have aren't offended. I'm sure
              some are though. Actually, several didn't even know the term
              "riceboy" until I explained it to them
        \_ The term is Rice Boi and the taillights are called Altezzas.
        \_ What does "rice-boy" mean?
           \_ asian boys that take $12k cars and put $30k m0dz in them and end
              up with ugly funky silly looking under powered $42k cars.
              \_ but where does "rice" in the name come from? -clueless
        \_ I'm white and I love rice. Am I a rice boy?
           \_ no
           \_ I think the term was originally meant for those from Vietnam,
              which rice consistutes majority of their stable diet.
              Rice = Asian is not strictly true as those northern Chinese
              eat a lot of wheats.
2003/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28488 Activity:nil
5/19    Goodbye, Ari Fleischer.  You managed to keep a straight face for
        so long.
        \_ URL?  Given a choice I'd rather be Ari than do the same job for BC.
           \_ Heh, I'd've been fired if I'd been the spokesman for Bill:
              "I'm sorry, the President has nothing to say about the
               allegations regarding Monica Lewinsky.  I, on the other
               hand, have plenty to say: C'mon, folks, it was a blowjob!
               Get over it!"
               \_ Probably not the right spin BC was looking for but it'd be
                  funny as hell if it got on the air.
        \_ http://www.csua.org/u/2z7
2003/5/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28477 Activity:nil
5/17    Advantages of working for the primary contributor to the Democratic
        party (along with trial lawyers)
        FL Teachers' Union paid for chief's opulent lifestyle -
        $2,000-a-night suite raised red flags
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/913580/posts
        \_ that bastard better fry
        \_ It's a freeper link so it should be deleted from the motd.  Free
           speech is only for people who agree with us.
2003/5/15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28442 Activity:insanely high
5/14    http://csua.org/u/edd
        A well-hyperlinked account of Bush's day on 9/11/2001.
        \_ Only a terrorist could say such things about our brave President.
        \_ Why do you post this crap.  I was up the entire morning of Sept. 11
           and saw the entire thing transpire.  Until the second plane hit,
           outside of the air traffic control and maybe NORAD, by the time
           it was too late, there was confusion as to what was happening.  It
           was unclear if the first plane was an accident until the second one
           hit.  I personally watched the talk Bush was giving at the
           elementary and saw when one of his aides told him of the details.
           Let me ask a better question - why didn't your idol Billy Bob do
           anything after the first World Trade Center bombing, and the
           subsequent four attacks during his administration?  He declined, yes
           DECLINED, to extradite Bin laden from Sudan.  Maybe he was too busy
           jerking off in the Oval Office sink?  I vividly recall posting
           links about Clinton's shenanigans in the intelligence community,
           for example mandating diversity quilts at CIA.  Clinton met with
           James Woolsey once, during his two year tenure as CIA director.
           The joke in Washington was that the Cessna that crashed in the
           White House was Woolsey's attempt to get a meeting with the
           President.  I wonder if some of the NYSlimes links were written
           by Blair?
           \_ Why does Bush keep changing his story then?
           \_ NYSlimes. Way to go, that'll show 'em.
2003/5/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:28416 Activity:insanely high
5/12    Oakland High teens get grilled by Secret Service
        http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?s=%20%201268949
        What did they say? "Gonna put a cap in that fool's ass"?
        \_ Card-carrying Republican signing in to say, how inane.  I wish more
           conservatives would figure out the line between security and
           insanity.
           \_ Right on.  A little more common sense on everyone's part
              would serve us well.  -op
           \_ I agree in part.  However, we have to remember how we got to
              this point.  How has the Federal government accumulated all
              of this power and intrusive involvement into virtually every
              aspect of our lives.  More importantly how has it accumulated
              the resources (ie money) to organize such violations.
              This irony seems to escape the liberal polity.
              The article, BTW, is garbage and provides absolutely zero
              information about what happened.  Its unreasonable to
              speculate without more information.
              \_ FASCIST!  DOWN WITH WHITEY!
              \_ could you elaborate on "this irony" for the more dense of us?
                \_ Income tax enacted by Wilson, War on Poverty from Johnson,
                   Social Security and everything else from FDR, etc. etc. etc.
                   Liberals created the monster, but both political parties
                   avail themselves of it.  A welfare state is not compatible
                   with liberty - the founders knew this in the 1700's, and said
                   as much.
                   \_ hey are you that guy with the mustache passing
                      Lyndon LaRouche literature on Sproul?  You are
                      awesome. - danh
                   \_ Just curious, do you think that the Scandinavians
                      have liberty? Why or why not?
           \_ I don't see why conservatives back Bush.  Bush is about as
              conservative as Castro is communist.  Real conservatives want
              US out of UN and US out of Israel, because we need to take care
              of our own first.  - Real Conservative.
              \_ analgous argument for liberals and Gore (or the Democratic
                 party for that matter).  - Real Liberal.
                 \_ do you regret voting for Nader?
                    \_ for one, I don't live in a contested state (FL), so,
                       no. However, even that aside, no, I don't regret it
                       since I don't think Gore would have done much for the
                       problems that I feel the country is faced with. I
                       think its ultimately more valuable for a thrid party
                       candidate like Nader to gain popularity than to
                       elect an almost-Republican to office.
              \_ isolationism is dangerous. we are a global power;
                 castrating our foreign policy would be folly. --aaron
                 \_ unfortunately, what we are doing right now is
                    constantant expansion of our interest, much like
                    what British was doing 150 years ago.
2003/4/28-29 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28252 Activity:low
4/28    Am I the only one who's noticed that if you compare the map of
        Middle Earth to the U.S. Mordor is right where Texas is?
        \_ It's New Zealand
        \_ And if you compare it to Europe, it's France.
           \_ No, it's more like ... Austria.
        \_ Yes, you are because it would take some serious drugs and a hard
           core blind hatred of a passing political figure to see that.  If it
           was the bay area, it'd be San Jose.  So what?
           \_ my hatred of Bush is not so blind, I have plenty of
              valid reasons.
           \_ passing political figure?  you mean Bush?  pah!  I'd associate
              him as much with New England as with Texas.  Texas just really
              really sucks.  Try actually spending some time there, and
              you'll see that people don't hate texas because of some
              "passing political figure," they hate it because it's a
              fucking pit(except Austin).
2003/4/27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28236 Activity:kinda low
4/25    liberal propoganda about the lies that bushblair told us:
        http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=400805
        \_ George Bush is a good Christian and does not tell lies like that.
           This sort of thing is spread by the liberals and Europeans and
           Godless Communists who just hate our American way of life for
           no good reason.
2003/4/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28115 Activity:high
4/14    http://money.cnn.com/2003/04/11/news/bush_taxes.reut
        Dubya earns about 436K in interest income every year.  Assuming a
        conservative 5% return, that's almost 9 million dollars that he
        has in trust funds.  That's financial independence.  When one can
        live entirely on interest alone.
        \_ Yes.  And?
        \_ What did GWB accomplish in his life before becoming Prez?
           \_ Drove a company or two into the ground...
           \_ Got caught picking his nose and eating his snot on TV...
           \_ Kept the Texas Death Penalty Appeal No-Hitter record clean.
2003/4/7 [Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28018 Activity:high
4/7     Getting on Gandhi's case!  Next thing you know, you guys will
        be blasting Martin Luther King Jr.  Why don't we slag off FDR,
        JFK, Eisenhower, and Lincoln while we're at it?  Damn, I mean,
        HAS their been a leader that wasn't completely full of shit
        and out to lunch? Its no wonder that we don't have great
        leaders anymore - they would never survive the cynicism of
        today.
        \_ What's wrong with questioning leaders of any sort?  And
           while we're at it, Lincoln was a Republican who used
           slavery as an excuse to attack his southern neighbors.
           Actually mu favorite is JFK.  I'd like to know what JFK did
           that made him such a great leader.  He brought us to the
           edge of nuclear hell and back?  He banged a few hot chicks?
           Gave some good speeches?  What?
        \_ MLK was naive as a leader and a plagiarist.  FDR was an
           autocrat. JFK had mafia connections and took a lot of rash,
           dangerous decisions.  Ike was militarily a waffler.  Hitler
           liked dogs and children.  Is this a new thing, not being
           allowed to criticize leadership icons?  Or do you just
           love adhering to your grammar-school-inculated picture of a
           black-and-white-world?  -John
           \_ Hitler was also vegetarian and did not drink or smoke.
              He was also not a philanderer.
        \_ FDR was the worst President ever - he is primarily
           responsible for the destruction of this republic.  What
           were JFK's accomplishments? Assisinating Diem and setting
           the stage for an inept civilian run war, the disaster in
           the Bay of Pigs, etc. Yes, MLK was a inveterate plagiarist
           and a hardcore Marxist, but you do have to give him credit
           for standing up against that which was morally
           reprehensible, when few others would.
        \_ The public memory isn't quite the same as actual history of MLK:
        \_ The public memory isn't quite the same as actual history of
           MLK:
        link:www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/editorial/5571486.htm
        \_ Okay, cool, so you guys can slag off just about anyone!  So
           who's Great?  Oh wait, lemme guess...Reagan, Herbert
           \_ The above were all very good comments.  You can't duck all
              those responses with a lame "you're all sheep" and expect
              anyone to take you seriously or your point to look like
              anything more than silly rantings.  Try to respond to some
              of them and demonstrate their wrongness and yo momma will
              be proud of you.  Until then, no more cookies for you, troll.
           Hoover, Ted Nugent, the Tooth Fairy, and yo momma.  By the
           way, thanks for being sheep and making my point for me.
           \_ The above were all very good comments.  You can't duck
              all those responses with a lame "you're all sheep" and
              expect anyone to take you seriously or your point to
              look like anything more than silly rantings.  Try to
              respond to some of them and demonstrate their wrongness
              and yo momma will be proud of you.  Until then, no more
              cookies for you, troll.
           \_ All human beings are in some way flawed and imperfect.
2003/4/6 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28005 Activity:moderate
4/5     RIAA says MTU student owes them $97.8e12:
        http://www.freep.com/money/tech/newman5_20030405.htm
        \_ Actually, it's $97.8e9  Boy, you freepers sure are good at math.
           \_ Its not http://freerepublic.com, its Detroit Free Press.  So I
              guess that makes you the idiot, eh?
              \_ Freepers are also good at calling people names!
                \_ And the left is good at killing 50+ million people
                   in the 20th century.
                   \_ these responses may mark an all-time low.
                      \_ Actually, some estimates for the 20th
                         century RIAA/MPAA death toll
                         range up to 200 million.
                   \_ Republicans slaughtered 9 million in 1964 alone.
                      \_ All during the civil rights movement where they tried
                         to keep minorities down, right?
2003/4/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27998 Activity:high
4/4     Making Peace: 100 Years of Leftist Failure
        http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=7092
        \_ Makes perfect sense if you accept that FDR is a conservative
           and the Vietnam War was a liberal excercise.
           \_ If FDR is a conservative, i just got a lot more comfortable
              with my recently admitted liberalism -crebbs
           \_ It's truly amazing how you can take one or two lines completely
              out of context or just rewrite them from whole cloth and dismiss
              the whole thing based on your twisted and contorted version of
              what the article is saying.  Why do you even bother making a
              vague reference to the article?  Why not just completely make
              up everything instead of making up 95%?
              \_ Your entire article is bullshit. It would make more sense
                 to call it Making War: 100 Years of Conservative Success.
                 \_ It wasn't my article but unlike you I at least read it and
                    since I actually have read a history book I understand it.
                    \_ Who has started the major wars of the 20th century?
                       How many times did liberal France invade conservative
                       Germany? To blame a liberal for failing to contain
                       conservative agression is literally perverse.
2003/4/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27991 Activity:high
4/4     http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0304/04/a05-126999.htm
        Fired from radio station for pro-Bush, pro-troops, anti-NPR stand.
        \_ insulting public radio all day when your show is on
           a public radio station is pretty lame-  danh
           \_ so is insulting "big gub'mint" on a taxpayer-supported
              machine, where you got your education at the best public
              university in the country.  but that doesn't seem to stop
              people.  -tom
              \_ How about a government supported by our taxes but not
                 elected by us?  One that's fomenting terrorism abroad
                 and holding innocent people as terrorists at home?
                 \_ what about it?  That seems consistent with support of
                    public education, if only from a fiscal perspective.  -tom
           \_ It was reported in the link that he did not insult public
              radio per se, he insulted the content of public radio.
              Public radio need not be bland and un-opinionated, and it
              need not utter only the opinion of one side.
2003/4/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27972 Activity:high
4/2     Those who supported DOS attack on Al Jazeera and think
        Al Jazeera is pro Iraqi, think again:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2911935.stm
        \_ I'm a conservative, I don't think.
           \_ This is a perfect example. I, a conservative, originally
              posted the reply 'I'm a liberal, I don't think'.  So, instead
              of an original witty reparte what does some moron do, but
              transpose the word 'liberal' for conservative.
              \_ Are you seriously bragging that you are the one who posted
                 'I'm a liberal, I don't think'!?
                \_ Thats a little better.
           \_ bad troll.  no cookie.
        \_ all blatant trolling crap deleted.  everything else left alone.
        \_ How can you distinguish this from two evil stepsisters fighting?
        \_ From that article: "The US and UK have accused the station of bias
           and criticised it for airing pictures of dead Western troops."  Who
           is right?
           \_ Right?  In what sense?
2003/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27918 Activity:very high
3/30    Can anyone justify the use of the prefix "neo" in the term
        "neo-conservative" that is now heard so often?  isn't the exact
        nature of conservatism always changing, and so isn't it always in
        some sense new?  what's the point of this new term?
                \_ It's actually a fairly old term. It originally denoted
                   a specific group of liberals who had become more
                   conservative over time, but were still liberal on
                   social issues. Irving Kristol is the key example.
                   Now it seems to denote people who are interventionist
                   on foriegn policy but moderate on some domestic issues.
        \_ Knock, knock, Neo.
                \_ It's actually a fairly old term. It originally denoted
                   a specific group of liberals who had become more
                   conservative over time, but were still liberal on
                   social issues. Irving Kristol is the key example.
                   Now it seems to denote people who are interventionist
                   on foriegn policy but moderate on some domestic issues.
           \_ No I'm not Neo.  My name is Thomas Anderson, PhD, Prof. of
              Computer Science, UC Berkeley.
              \_ you are not the OP.  I am the OP.
        \_ no. no. none.
        \_ To make a distinction between "old" conservatives whose platform
           hasn't changed significantly since Reagan and "new" conservatives,
           a small crop that has recently surfaced and espouses a much
           more centrist platform while pursuing hegemonic goals that scare
           old conservatives.  Or something like that.  YMMV.
           \_ Ok, but what's the most confusing about the use of this
              term is that it is used to describe members of the Bush
              administration who predate the bush administration by
              decades, like Dick Cheney. This seems an awful lot like
              the way people in the humanities attatch the prefix "post"
              to everything.  I claim that that usually ends up not
              meaning much and weakening the language.
              \_ This is where having a BA in English comes in handy:
                 Believe me when I tell you that the English language
                 is strong enough to weather the additional use of the
                 prefix "neo" as regards conservatives.
        \_ Time magazine has a good article on neo-conservatives and
           the Bush Administration.  Paul Wolfkowiz (?) was the original
           one and he had to convince Cheney/Bush/Powell of the views.
        \_ Because "Neo-conservative" suggests "Neo-Nazi".  Duh!
           Another way of putting it:  Neoconservative == Rumsfeld|Cheney|
           Wolfowitz, Conservative == BushSr|Powell|Reagan
           -the troll who knows more than you
           \_ What about my hero Dubya?!
              \_ like his father, BushSr.  Not neoconservative.
                 \_ Except he is a little less intelligent than his Sr,
                    so he gets pushed around by the neos.
                    \_ Powell was converted too.  Or at least didn't
                       complain publicly.
                       \_ Once Bush got brainwashed, Powell have no
                          choice but to follow along.  Read the recent
                          WSJ article about diplomacy before the war,
                          and how Powell got caught in the middle.
                          Poor guy.  He should have gone for the
                          Presidency himself, rather than work for
                             \_ What purpose would that serve?
                          wimpy Bush and get push around by the neos.
                          \_ I wouldn't call Bush wimpy.  He wants tension
                             between his advisors.
                             \_ To make himself look like an idiot?
                                \_ like him or not, it takes tons of guts
                                   to start a major war like the one in
                                   Iraq.  Dubya has guts.
                                   \_ I don't think he has guts. He never
                                      fought in a war. He also claims to
                                      be Christian, and that all the dead
                                      people go to heaven. So basically
                                      no matter how bad he fucks things up,
                                      the God safety net makes it ok.
                                      \_ if you were president, would you
                                         be able to order a major war like
                                         the one we are having now (pretend
                                         you believe in the cause).  Some
                                         presidents do simple air strike
                                         pin pricks and then say that
                                         was enough.
                                \_ awesome, he has guts.  i feel better now.
                                   "That guy who hit that guy in head with
                                   a spiked bat, he had a lot of guts."
                                   \_ America had guts to enter the 2nd
                                      world war, while those who appeased
                                      Hitler didn't.  Would you want a wimpy
                                      President instead?
                                      \_ Guts? Hitler declared war vs. the US
                                         not the other way around.
                                         \_ The U.S. stayed on the sidelines
                                            for a long time in WWII.
                                            The U.S. didn't have to send
                                            forces anywhere in WWII.
                                            \_ True. And they would have just
                                               sat if Japan hadn't attacked.
                                               As usual, it would have been
                                               easier for the US to deal with
                                               a tyranical dictator (Hitler)
                                               than other democracies.
                       \_ Powell understands that the Bush administration
                          values the appearance of unity and a single
                          message very highly.
              \_ Dubya == a shadow of BushSr -op
                 obbutclintonwasterribleremarks
2003/3/27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27880 Activity:nil
3/26    http://protestwarrior.com/posters.htm
        \_ Wow almost as intellectual and mature as the crap your average
           anti-war protester carries around.  -John
           \_ Actually most of them are pretty funny as well as correct.  I
              see nothing anti-intellectual in true statements.  The average
              anti-war protester in SF carries a sign that's nothing but
              anti-Bush noise which is good-to-go at any leftist rally for any
              topic.  Whatever.
                \_ Fair enough, as long as s/most/some.  Although the 'GEORGE
                   BUSH HAS A REALLY SMALL PENIS' one seen in the Economist
                   has a certain je ne sais quoi... -John
                   \_ how about this one:
           http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030319prowarreg3p3.asp
                \_ Young Republicans are so hilariously serious.
                   \_ And uhm, you think the people taking over the streets
                      in SF don't take themselves seriously?  I was there.
                      It was very serious to them.  Does it make you feel
                      big to sling around empty one liner put downs?
                \_ wow, I hate to be mean or anything (oh wait I love it)
                   but the two Young Republicans in that picture have some
                   serious UGLY problems going on there. -aspo
2003/3/26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27864 Activity:nil
3/26    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/fashion/23DIXI.html
        "... the backlash against [The Dixie Chicks] was not a
         spontaneous, widespread outburst, but instead was led
         by a small group of activists, beginning with
         http://Freerepublic.com. ... the phenomenon even has a name
         getting 'freeped,' slang for being deluged with angry
         e-mail messages from users of the site."
        \_ FR gets more traffic than Salon.
        \_ DC were pretty stupid to make such statements given
           where their fan base is.  Freedom of speech extends both
           ways, and those fans are exercising it well.
           \_ yeah, they should just release a punk album.  i'd buy it.
        \_ boo hoo, it sucks when activism goes the other way huh?  like a
           very small number of morons shutting down the financial district
           for the ego boost, the $500k police overtime cost, and to hurt the
           hourly employees who sat in traffic for an extra 2-3 hours instead
           of earning money to feed their kids.  i've got zero sympathy for
           people who mouth off and then whine like babies when they take an
           economic hit for it.  you've got the right to mouth off in this
           country and others have the right to not buy your product, not
           listen to what you say, and do their organised best to shut you
           down.  the left has been doing this for years.  sucks now that it
           goes the other way now, huh?  head/pig/insert.
2003/3/24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27825 Activity:very high
3/24    Michael Moore is a fat whiny twit, and a not particularly bright or
        witty one at that.  I thought I should point that out.  -John
        \_ I doubt anyone was particularly surprised that he took time
           to speak his mind (as that's what his career is based on),
           and I thought it was pretty nifty for him to invite his fellow
           documentarians up on stage with him.  As for the rest, I can
           understand why you'd say that, and I can also see why people
           think otherwise.  He earned a lot of cred with "Roger and Me."
           --erikred
        \_ I think it's pretty silly that everyone criticises hollywood
           celebrities for using their "soapbox" of fame to get whatever
           message they may have out.  yes, they're mostly idiots.  but it's
           the press's fault that they treat what hollywood people say
           as news.  what if they treated everything we say on the motd as
           news?  I realize that Moore is not part of hollywood exactly,
           but people have been making a stink about this issue recently,
           and i think it's relevant.
           \_ Hey, he gets his opinion, I get mine.  And why voicing an
              opinion about his personality constitutes a judgment on any
              "issue" is beyond me.
        \_ sort of like you.
           \_ Hey, great point.  You're pretty funny.  Do you sign your
              posts, or do you just make kneejerk anonymous digs?  Do you
              think dumbshit cowards like you deserve anything but scorn?
              Sad pathetic fuck.  -John
              \_ I think Moore acted like an idiot too.  I mean it may be
                 a war fought on "fictitious" reasons, but Bush won the
                 election fair and square, nothing fictitious about that.
                 That Bush is a moron doesn't change that fact.
                 \_ I respectfully disagree:  The number of votes by which
                    Bush "won" was so slight as to be well within the
                    the statistical margin of error for an election of
                    this size.  Further, machinations by Republican
                    appointees to the Supreme Court made a controversial
                    decision that lent legititmacy to an otherwise shady
                    outcome.  I don't expect that to sway you, but I want
                    you to know that I disagree.  --erikred
                    \_ Well put.  I agree.  - some other guy
                        \_ He won, period.  Every reasonable vote count since
                           has come to the same conclusion.  The Supreme Court
                           simply preempted the state legislature and expedited
                           a foregone outcome.  The Florida Supreme Court severly
                           overstepped its delegated powers and deserved to be
                           smacked down.  The relevant USSC decision was 7-2.
                           The legal opinion is available, search for it.
                           Whether Bush won by 500 votes or 50,000 is irrelevant.
                           No president has had a majority of votes since Reagan.
                           \_ Keep towing that line.
                              \_ And if you're feeling frisky, you can toe
                                 that line too.
                           \_ Recounting all of the ballots in Florida would
                              have led to a Gore victory, according to NYT,
                              Washington Post, et al. Or is that not a
                              "reasonable count" in your definition, since
                              it does not give the conclusion that you
                              desire?
                                \_ Go read the legal opinions and decisions.
                                   Don't demagogue from a point of ignorance, at
                                   least be intellectually honest and research
                                   it yourself.  USSC decision 7-2.  The same
                                   thing happened to Nixon against Johnson.
                                   Nixon chose not to litigate it.
                                   \_ Got the decision.  More specious was
                                      whether the Supreme Court should have
                                      reviewed the case at all.
                                      Also, the number of votes is important
                                      to our claim of being a democratic
                                      country and opens the discussion for
                                      the need for severe electoral reform.
                                        \_ Electoral reform, for what?
                                           Do you understand the point of
                                           the electoral college
                                           or why Senators, until Wilson, were
                                           elected by state legislators?  Please,
                                           again, to be intellectually honest
                                           with yourself learn about the
                                           electoral college and read the legal
                                           opinions.
                                           \_ do you understand why no other
                                              democracy uses an electoral
                                              college?  -tom
                                              \_ none as old as our's.
                                              \_ Yes. The EC is what gives
                                                 states equal footing in the
                                                 national discourse. It allows
                                                 for equal representation of
                                                 ideas in our REPUBLIC (not
                                                 a democracy).
                                        \_ Could it be because we are not
                                           nor were ever meant to be a
                                           democracy?
                                                   \_ We have the opportunity
                                                      to have an educated
                                                      electorate vote in
                                                      free elections for
                                                      elected representatives.
                                                      Times have changed since
                                                      1776.  It's time we
                                                      changed with them.  Thus
                                                      the call for reform.
        "One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with
        complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's
        presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear.
        It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian
        of the rule of law. I respectfully dissent." -Justice Stevens
        (writing for the 4 dissenting judges who voted against the
         decision awarding the election to Bush, not 2, like you imply)
        \_ This was not the relevant decision.  There were two decisions handed
           down, one 5-4, the other 7-2.
2003/3/23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27814 Activity:high
3/23    TrollP. My dentist was arguing that the UN has become obsolete, along
        the lines of the League of Nations. Now... I'm not going to argue
        with a man who has a drill in my mouth. I was just wondering if
        those right of center agree with that thought or if it is just
        pure ignorance. I don't care what those left of center think.
        \_ UN obsolecense rests on the premise that the US is the single
           hyper/uber-power, and that no one can oppose us.  This is premature,
           as we still do not have the means of neutralizing unstable regimes
           armed with nuclear weapons, and we've yet to prove that we can
           smoothly execute a military campaign against a vastly inferior
           target.  The credibility of the Bush Admin's claim of UN
           obsolecense hinges on an unqualified victory over Iraq.  If
           they cannot deliver such, the UN will emerge more popular (and
           relevant) than before.
        \_ Okay, look at it this way.  The UN is a body of 'leaders' that
           aren't elected, have no system of accountability, and yet still
           dictate what constitutes 'proper' action for sovereign nations.
           It just doesn't make very much sense to me to give any credence to
           UN's 'authority'.
        \_ The Bush admin just invaded Iraq without UN Security Council
           creidbility by actually enforcing the 17 UN security council
           approval, the whole time saying they didn't need a yes
           vote to invade... but just in case kept trying to get one.
           looks like the bush admin thinks the UN is pretty irrelevant
           now.  Thanks guys!  see you in hell.
        \_ Ha, this happened to a friend of mine when he was a kid.  He said
           his mom was arguing with the dentist and his dad was horrified.
           His dad was like "just agree with the man!  Our son is in his
           hands!"
        \_ If anything Bush has actually preserved any semblance of
           credibility by enforcing the 17 UN security council
           resolutions.  That said, the US should never have joined the
           United Nations.  It was organized by Communists and has
           been a complete failure at preventing conflict, instead
           tacitly approving a number of genocides.
           \_ So Bush has preserved the principles of the UN by ignoring
              the principles of the UN?  Put head back in sand.
              \_ Better to pass endless resolutions forever.  If *those* are
                 UN principles then we can do with out it.  No one needs an
                 international debate club comprised mostly of third world
                 despots.
2003/3/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:27799 Activity:high
3/21    So I figure you lefties got tired of being smushed and seeing the facts
        showing you were wrong about the whole Iraq thing thus far.  Feel
        free to censor at will.  You have my permission.  ;-)
        [censor does not mean 'edit'.  add your own comments.  don't be
         infantile]
        \_ Where are the oilfield fires Rumsfield claimed? What about those
           gas and nerve agents? Is anything Bush claimed going to end up
           as true? You are the one that should be embarrassed for yourself.
2003/3/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27787 Activity:high
3/21    How many people think that we'll have another 9/11 as the result of
        this invasion of Iraq?
        \_ the CIA, Bush and Ridge, for three.  -tom
           \_ they're pretty much counting on it. "terrorism" is the new
              bogeyman now that communism is dead, and they're going to
              milk it for all the mindless fear they can, for political
              gain. --aaron
              \_ Aaron, by bogeyman you mean that it's an imaginary threat.
                 Are you implying neither communism nor terrorism are
                 dangerous, and need not be dealt with?
              \_ GO PAT! GO!
        \_ Just the left wing nutters who hate Bush and all Republicans just
           because and with such passion it makes Clinton bashing look tame.
           \_ "Just because?" Keep telling yourself that.
              \_ Ok, ok, it's because the right disagrees with the left so
                 that makes the right automatically evil.  happy?
                 \_ Don't get out much, do you?
                    \_ Is that it?  That's the best you can come up with?  Why
                       did you bother at all?  Here's how the rest would go
                       in your world, "Yes, I do", "No, you don't",  repeat
                       until graduated from 3rd grade.
                       \_ Go read a newspaper, fool.
                          \_ ausman, try harder.  i normally dont name names
                             but really.
                             \_ Bite me. Anyone who cannot think of one reason
                                why Bush might be disliked other than "just
                                because" is not worth nor capable of reasoned
                                debate. -ausman
                                \_ "hate Bush and all Republicans just because
                                    and with such passion that [....]"  Talk
                                    about dishonest debating.  The text is
                                    still up there and you're already trying
                                    to rewrite what was said.  sheesh.
           \_ Heh, I WISH Bush would get a blowjob.  It might make him
              mellow out.  But hey, this is what you get when you have
              a cokehead in office after a stoner.
              \_ no one cares about the bj.  you *really* need someone to post
                 a list of all his treasonous actions?  sheesh, i thought we
                 were done with that.
                 \_ In spite of the hundreds of millions spent smearing
                    his name Clinton was still came in fourth as "Best
                    American President" in the most recent Gallup polls.
                    All your lies are not working.
                    \_ Starr's whole thing was roughly $40m which is less than
                       Clinton's vacation with Chelsea to Pakistan & India at
                       the end of his second term.
                    \_ I agree. Anything gallup says is good.  See my link
                       at the current top of the motd.
        \_ the people actually fighting the war on terrorism think so:
           http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030319-040543-3049r
2003/3/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27786 Activity:nil
3/21    Wow, guess I was wrong about the bluff.  I suppose I've been
        surprised by Bush before.
        \_ You wouldn't be the only one.
2003/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27755 Activity:high
3/19    The rest of the world can see that we are marching to
        Sharon's orders, even if we cannot:
        http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EC20Ak07.html
        \_ Yeah!  Kill the Jews!  Push em into the sea!  Round em up and slap
           a yellow star on em then gas em!  YAAAAAAA!  Wow, I feel so much
           better having gotten that bit of mindless hatred off my chest.
           \_ I see you cannot debate the points raised by the story
              so you resort to race baiting.
              \_ Let's see:  Likkud fuels the AEI, which fuels the PNAC,
                 which sets the agenda for the Bush Administration.  The
                 only thing the article lacks is a reference to the
                 Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  I'm not a Bush-
                 supporter, but this article is insulting.
        \_ I can't believe I am dignifying this with a response, but any
           article that must cleanse itself by stating that it is not a
           conspiracy theory, thus obviously thinks it may be perceived as
           one, is starting on shakey ground already.
           \_ Fine, read this one then, that says much of the same thing,
              but in much less detail:
              http://csua.org/u/b1f
              But I suppose Rueters and the NYT are part of the vast
              anti-Semitic conspiracy in your worldview.
2003/3/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27709 Activity:high
3/15    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/14/moran.remarks
        "If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for
        this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this."
        \_ is it really necessary to have two motd threads on this topic
           at the same time?
        \_ Jews should fight their own wars, it's nearly time the started.
           \_ yes, because the next point is "Did anyone see the dateline
              on NBC where they talked about how ashcroft && his zionistic
              party have been trying to get a "friendly" white house adminis.
              since the early 80s?  And now we have to take an in increasing
              "fight israel's wars for them" stance as part of what is now
              called the "Bush Doctrine".
        \_ Jews should fight their own wars, it's nearly time they started.
           and without any "aid".
           \_ J00s 0wn0rz j00!
           \_ that aid is the only thing keeping israel from crushing all
              their neighbors who want them dead.  they did just fine without
              any aid for several decades.  as a pro-zionist i think they'd
              be better off not selling their souls for american money and
              doing unto their enemies what their enemies have been trying to
              do to them for more than half a century.
            \_ Isreal was the focal point for the Cold War in the Middle East.
               All of the conflicts were, at least in part, proxy wars
               between the US and the Soviets.
        \_ ok, ok, let's just get it over with (again): we all hate jews.
           there.  doesn't that feel better to just say it?  i know i feel
           better about hating jews now.  you should too.
        \_ People forget that France did aid the fledgling state of Israel with
           fighter jets first.
        \_ I don't think Israel would go on a crushing rampage if we
           cut all our aid to them.  Their economy right now is a bunch
           of crap and they have a couple of million impoverishered
           Palestinians with little to no economic future camped
           right next door.
2003/3/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27663 Activity:high
3/11    Why do so many conspiracy theories revolve around the Bank of England?
        What's with that?
        \_ Isn't George Bush somehow a distant member of the line of
           succession?
        \_ Its because all conspiracists are actually just an underground
           group conspring to overthrow the Bank. I think it has something
           to do with the Masons.
           \_ Close. It stems from the large number of Masons in positions
              of power within England during the 1800's and early 1900's.
              The Royals were said to be the head of the Masons during this
              time and Masonic approval was "needed" to appoint someone into
              an upper, upper class job. This includes the Bank of England.
2003/3/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27660 Activity:high
3/11    National Do-Not-Call law signed by Bush (slashdot).  Serious
        question: what was the last law that was actually aimed at helping
        ordinary people-- something that made you say, "gee, that has
        slightly improved my life"?
        \_ tax cuts
           \_ bingo!  we have a winner!
              \_ actually, the tax cuts have significantly improved my life.
                 \_ Hope you don't live in the unincorporated south bay
                    which will soon not have sheriff patrols because the
                    county can't afford it.  Who needs govt servies??
                 \_ You must live a pathetic life if a 5 or 10% raise
                    significantly improves it. What, you couldn't afford
                    hookers before, and now you can?
        \_ while it was not a law, i certainly applaud clinton's effort to
           destigmatize oral sex.
           \_ dunno about the destigmatization, but i sure do give interns
              a second and third glance nowadays.
        \_ The medical marijuana law improved my life, until Ashcroft
           started stomping all over states rights.
2003/3/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27630 Activity:very high
3/7     Teachers are no longer granted freedom to express their views in Bush's
        Amerikkka: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030307-093444-9730r
        \_ It is one thing to give extra credit for students who write letters
           expressing their views, its is a completely different thing to give
           extra credit only if students write letters that concur with the
           teachers agenda.
           \_ i knew a guy once who was a history major.  he used to write
              all his papers slanted opposite the political views of this
              teachers on purpose just as a challenge.  the amazing thing is
              he was such a good writer it actually worked for him.
        \_ Ironic that the poster here argues for teacher freedom of speech
           while argueing against student freedom of speech.
           \_ NO FREE SPEACH FOR FASCISTS!!! -actual sign held by
              Berkeley radical. In case you didn't get the memo, irony is
              dead.
                \_ Did he really spell speech "speach"?
        \_ Thats why the President of the University wrote an apology
           to President Bush.
           And I suppose you view teachers critizing children in the classroom
           whos parents are soldiers deployed in the Gulf is also free speech.
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849965/posts
           http://www.thefire.org/issues/citrus_prelease.php3
2003/3/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27614 Activity:nil
3/6     Has Bush ever explained how exactly he's going to pay for this war?
        During the gulf war, the other bush demanded that the western countries
        chip in and pay up.  Rightfully so I thought.  But with unilateral
        action, we'll have to pay for it all ourselves.  Why do I have a feeling
        that we're going to read his lips and get shafted with higher taxes?
        \_ What don't you understand about deficit spending?
        \_ He mentioned it yesterday. He'd just ask Congress for the money.
           \_ and how is congress going to get the money if we have a deficit?
              I guess the treasury will start auctioning 30 year bonds again.
              They stopped issuing those since 2001.
        \_ He'll just get rid of all the useless shit in the budget.
           \_ like the military?
2003/2/25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27518 Activity:nil
2/25    Tens of Bush supporters take to the streets!
        http://www.bettybowers.com/protests.html
        \_ You don't need to take to the streets when the government is already
           doing exactly what you want.  What's the point?  No counter protests
           are required.  That takes place in the voting booth at elections.
           The message last election was pretty clear: all three branches.
2003/2/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27501 Activity:very high
2/22    Help fast for our President:
        http://www.heartlight.org/fast
        \_ Does President Sheen need my prayers?  I'm there!  We love you
           and your centrist inclusive message President Sheen!
           \_ President Sheen?  What d'you mean?  Are you trying to say
              that Bush is just an actor?
              that Bush is just an actor?  \_ EIN REICH EIN FOLK EIN BUSH!
              \_ he's not smart enough to be an actor.
                 \_ as if any actor could be smart enough to be a president.
                    \_ appearently not. Look at how fucked up Ronald Reagan
                       was.
                    \_ I sincerely hope this is a joke or a troll.
2003/2/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27490 Activity:high
2/22    Is The New Republic supposed to be conservative or liberal? Someone
        told me it was very conservative, but I just read a very anti-Bush
        article by their editor in the LA Times...
        \_ Bush isn't a conservative.  He's a raving liberal, and an idiot
          to boot.  "Compassionate conservatism" my ass.  He's just another
          poll-swinging kiss-ass spineless political monkey, and given the
          current electorate, that means a liberal.
        \_ I don't read TNR.  However, I consider myself a real conservative.
           Bush isn't a real conservative.  I'm pretty unhappy with a lot of
           his (over)spending policies, his no-border policy with Mexico and
           a few lesser issues.  He's a better choice than that wooden block
           head Gore, but not by much.  Hope that helps.
        \_ Bush isn't a conservative.  "Compassionate conservatism" my ass.
           He's just another poll-swinging kiss-ass spineless political monkey,
           and given the current electorate, that means a liberal.
           --Real Conservative
           \_ I thought Real Conservatives were isolationists.  Bush is
              trying to be Emperor of the World.
            \_ I agree... but to address the question, the New Republic
               is liberal, very liberal sometimes, moderately liberal
               others.  I believe the NR editor is gay so he is scared of
               Islam.  Actually, all mainstream news and entertainment
                 \_ I believe you are an idiot so you are scared of people
                    who think.
               organization are liberal except fox, washington times, few
               others.  If you want conservative thought read Jewish
               World Review, Worldnetdaily, Weekly Standard, National
               Review...
                \_ oh yes, AOL, GE, Microsoft, Viacom--these are the bastions
                   of liberal thought in our age.  (Exactly who do you think
                   owns "mainstream news"?)  -tom
                   \_ When 90% of the people who report the news (in the major
                      networks) vote Democrat, it's pretty hard to deny a bias.
                      \_ Don't bring facts into it.  You'll just hurt tom's
                         feelings and get the whole thread deleted.
                        \_ oh, "facts," right.  Here's a "fact"; 90% of the
                           people who report the news in the major networks
                           vote Republican.  So there!  -tom
                      \_ Your 90% figure is crap. Here are the real numbers:
                         http://www.fair.org/reports/journalist-survey.html
                         most journalists are centrist and independent.
                   \_ thats such hogwash.  As if Bill Gates tells some random
                      low life journalist or bottom feeding editor what to
                      write.  You're such a clown.  You're drowning in your
                      own freaky ultra leftism.
        \_ To answer your question, The New Republic considers itself liberal,
           but publishes stories from all sides of the poliical spectrum. For
           some reason they really hated Clinton. Perhaps they just like
           being the voice of the opposition.
2003/2/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27453 Activity:high
2/18    "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no
        question about it." -George W. Bush
        \_ Where did you find this quote?
           \_ Business Week.
        \_ Duh.  As if *every* elected official wouldn't agree.
           \_ Most elected officials take an oath to uphold Democracy.
2003/2/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:27452 Activity:insanely high
2/18    Bush plans to replicate the "Chilean experiment" in Social
        Security reform:
        http://www.umwa.org/journal/VOL113NO4/jul4.shtml
        \_ united mine workers of america?  heh.  i wonder where they stand
           on the issue.
           \_ why, they'll undermine it, of course.
              \_ undermine?  mine workers?  hahahah.. you're so clever.  not.
                 \_ i thought it was funny.
                    \_ me too
        \_ The plan is optional.  Congressmembers have the same option -
           shouldn't citizens?
           \_ No.  It's a Bush plan so it must be bad!
                \_ actually, yeah that is exactly how i think lately.
                   please prove me wrong.
                   \_ What president in recent history has inherited the
                      problems Bush has?  Depite the fact he is too liberal, I
                      am increasingly impressed his management acumen. Except
                      WTF is up with his budget. [formatd]
                      \_ It isn't that he's too liberal, per se.  It's that
                         he isn't a true conservative.  Maybe in thought, maybe
                         not, but not in action.  I understand the political
                         need to compromise but some of them are really
                         painful.  I console myself seeing the country swing
                         generally to the right.  I know we won't have another
                         Clinton for several decades, if ever in this century.
                         \_ Contraraily.  Not only were they non-compromising,
                            they were lazy and had bad attitudes:
                            http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/19/opinion/19FRIE.html
2003/2/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27448 Activity:very high
2/17    I always like to hear voice of different source.  Titled:
        Bush's sabre-rattling linked to self-interest
        http://csua.org/u/973
        \_ I am a dyed-in-the-wool Bush-hater, and it would gall me to no
           end if all this came to pass, because this is exactly what I
           think would actually bring a semblance of reform to the Middle
           East.  And I would have this person, whom I hate, both rationally
           and irrationally, so don't bother to try to convert me, to thank
           for it.  --erikred
           \_ Do you hate Clinton, erikred?
              \_ No, but I don't delude myself that he was a saint, either. --e
                 \_ So my question to you is, why do you hate Bush, but not
                    Clinton.  Clinton seems so far more evil.
                    \_ If you'd really like to know, email me.  --erikred
                        \_ Please post it.
                           \_ Resist! Don't do it! Leave the troll alone for
                              the good of the motd and humankind at large.
                              \_ Done. --erikred
                                 \_ Sorry, I don't get it, why are you willing
                                    to talk over e-mail, but not over motd.
                                    I mean even if you e-mail me, I ll post it
                                    here anyways.
        \_ These arguments are rhetorical.  These justifications are obvious,
           right?  It's too bad Bush is not a conservative.
           \_ He's not a conservative but he's closer to the real thing than
              Gore's make over artists could ever dream.
2003/2/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27440 Activity:high
2/17    Why are we letting a Stanford PoliSci prof/provost tell us about the
        need to go to war with Iraq?  For that matter, have you taken a look
        at Rumsfeld, Cheney, and G.W. Bush?
        \_ at least we can rest assured that she was hired completely on
           her merit since we know how much gwb hates affirmative action
        \_ You'd prefer a Hayward BA in sociology, maybe?  Weak troll.
        \_ If you are so intelligent what is your solution?  You are
           a sanctimonious pacifist when you simply stand for
           the do-nothing alternative.
           We saw where this got us the past administration.  Its the
           reason we are this situation today.
           \_ Seriously, please don't feed the trolls.
           \_ I'd be happier if I didn't feel like I were trolling.
2003/2/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27362 Activity:very high
2/10    Powell's going to burst a vessel, Rumsfeld won't know what to do,
        and Bush won't say anything until Friday at the earliest.  I bet
        they didn't expect Putin to publicly back France/Germany on expanded
        inspections.
        \_ Bush does not care what any of these countries think, why should he?
           We will be at war with Iraq in six weeks, tops.
        \_ France and Germany have already admitted Iraq has WMD.  To them,
           the question is one of economics and their trade relationship with
           Iraq.  This is what happens when Greens involve themselves
           in international affairs.
           \_ Wait, kind of like the Union Banking Corporation (director
              Prescott Bush, grandfather of current president) financing
              Nazi industry in WWII?  The only reason US companies aren't
              complaining is because of Sept 11 and bad PR.
                \_ This analogy makes no sense at all.  So you, as an anti-
                   corporate Chomskite, are the arch public relations
                   corporate Chomskyite, are the arch public relations
                   officer for the entire Fortune 500 and speak
                   as their representative?  I guess we are fortunate to
                   have you on the motd.
                   \_ Both of these arguments carry little weight.  I could
                      just as easily argue that Republican Texas-raised Bush
                      and his old cronies seek control over a major oil
                      source to counter OPEC.  After all, Dubya's National
                      Security Adviser has an oil tanker named after her,
           \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either.
                      from where she used to work.
                                             \_ Not "work"; she was on the
                                                board of directors. Hardly
                                                the same thing.
                        \_ And triangulating the Saudis would be a bad idea?
                           We can't go after them directly.
           \_ The US doesn't care about the WMD either. It is all about
              economics on both sides.
           \_ I thought it was more about the US having a huge, costly force
              commitment.
              \_It's all about control that extra 8% (whatever) of oil
                reserve.  It's all about expanding the sphere of influence
                into that region.  In the long run, controlling these oil
                reserve worth a lot more than billions of dollars we
                dump... at least what is what the president-I-didn't-vote-
                for think.  This is pure US aggression, imperalism at
                it's finest since the Opium War 150 years ago.
                        \_ Right... the U.S.'s blatant history of
                           naked aggresion and military / economic
                           subversion of its sphere of influence.
                           Anyways, its much better to let the Soviets
                           brilliant histoy of allying itself with militant
                           militant Islam for example.
                           or EU control the region.  Take France's
                           brilliant history of allying itself with
                           militant Islam for example - we need more of
                           this.  Enforcing UN resolutions is
                           imperialism now is it?
                           Where were all of you sanctimonious pacifists
                           when Clinton wanted to do the exact same thing
                           in 1998 or when we saved the EU's ass in the
                           Balkans.
                \_ You tell em!  Nader in 2004!  Four more years!
                \_ Wasn't the Opium War by the British?
2003/2/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27356 Activity:low
2/8     The Ashcroft/Bush menace tries to keep us down by illegally arresting
        one of young America's greatest symbols!
        http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/delldude1.html
        \_ You must be the guy that only listens to talk radio, right?
2003/2/7 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27338 Activity:nil
2/7     http://csua.org/u/909 - Dubya orders "Cyberwar"
        \_ Please try to get it right.  He didn't "order" any such thing.
           Your own link makes it clear this is just the creation of guidelines
           for when and how the US might attack foreign computer systems.  We
           should have done this in the previous administration.  Doing it now
           puts us only 5 years behind the Chinese and probably others.  Once
           again the US plays catchup.
2003/1/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27256 Activity:high
1/30    A cold shower
        http://csua.org/u/8ab (libertarian blather)
        \_ I seem to remember reading this on the wall of top dog.
        \_ Thomas Sowell is Black conservative at Stanford.
2003/1/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:27173 Activity:moderate
1/21    Creepy Propaganda hits the Letters to the Editor pages--
        over and over again:
        http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7308
        \_ The ACLU has a (slightly) similar practice for auto-faxing
           your Senator / CongressMan.  I've used it several times when
           I agreed with what they were saying.
           \_ it's ok when the aclu does it.  it's not ok when the fascists
              do it.
              \_ No, it's creepy no matter who does it.  It's great for
                 cultists who have the same thoughts, but terrible for
                 expressing your own ideas.
        \_ Why do you find blast faxing creepy?  This isn't even news.  It
           isn't even news that lazy editors print the stuff.
        \_ Their followup: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7340
           \_ Absolutely brilliant.  Thnx, --op
2003/1/20 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27155 Activity:nil
1/19    I prefer to align my politics with people *really* in the know on
        these sorts of things:
        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/52957p-49641c.html
2003/1/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27074 Activity:high
1/11    Bee Gee Maurice Gibb fails at Staying Alive. 1949-2003.  RIP.
        \_ you've been waiting to say this for many many years
           \_ ...well, yes, but surely I'm not the only one. --op
              \_ Death is never funny.  And to add insult to injury his family
                 will now have to pay the government because he died.
                 \_ I was beginning to feel bad about making a joke at the
                    expense of the dead, but now I feel much better knowing
                    that I'm not the kind of douche-bag who would use this
                    to start a Republican endorsement.  --op
                 \_ Not for long thanks to Bush.
                    \_ Ignorant lout.  The death tax penalty slowly drops until
                       2010 when it's zero and then magically pops back up to
                       the full pre-Bush rate for 2011.  You're an idiot,
                       and you're a liar and you're corrected.
                    \_ America was founded on unearned wealth and living
                       off the efforts of one's ancestors. Thank god for
                       Bush to recognize that.
                       \_ That's a bunch of liberal revisionist history
                          bullshit.  Check your facts and get back to me.
                       \_ I was going to educate you a bit on the FF's and how
                          they sacrificed *everything* and just about everyone
                          of them died destitute and alone.  I was going to
                          educate you and tell you how the people in this
                          country in the 1770's who fought the British were
                          the poorest of the poor of Europe who came here to
                          make a new life (so no one was landed wealth).  I was
                          going to educate you and tell you how you're
                          describing Europe past and present, not America, but
                          really I'd be wasting my time since the facts are in
                          direct conflict with your agenda.  So you go right
                          and ahead and retain your ignorance and keep posting
                          nonsense.  It makes it much easier to put you in
                          your place.  If you're still a student go take what
                          used to be called History 120a and 120b, pre-colonial
                          and colonial era American history.  You might learn
                          something if you put down the weed for a few hours.
                          \_ You mean, you two actually took that post
                             seriously?  How sad.
        \_ I'm just waiting for someone to say that death comes in
           threes... d'oh! -geordan
2003/1/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27048 Activity:moderate
1/9     The Bush White House has an "opinion line"for you to call. So, if
        you oppose the proposed war in Iraq, give a call.  The line only
        accepts calls from 9-5 EST., Monday thru Friday.  Just call the
        White House at 202-456-1111.  A machine will detain you for only
        a moment  then a pleasant operator  will thank you for saying, "I
        oppose, or I approve." Or you will be given a chance to leave a
        40 seconds recorded message.  It will only take minutes.  Note
        that the weekends are closed for calls. Bush has said that he
        wants to know what the American people are thinking.  Let him
        know .  Time is running out. Then please send this e-mail message
        to five other people right away.
                Tell them what you think.  1 phone call ! equals 10-20
        people who didn't call.  Pass it on to friends.
        \_ "Hey Dick, some hippy dippy lima bean says DONT BOMB
            IRAQ.  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA"
        \_ Can I call to oppose his bad tax bill?
           \_ What's bad about it?  *You* don't get other people's money?
              \_ 1. I don't like giving my money to rich people as child
                    tax credit.
                 2. Tax break for dividend is dumb, according to WSJ
                    article.  Should give dividend paying corporation
                    the tax break.
                 3. Average American get tax break of $265 not $1000+
                    as Bush said.
                 4. Most middle-income Americans savings are in 401k,
                    IRAs, etc., which essentially still have to pay
                    dividend taxes.
        \_ And when you call to say you oppose it, will they send
           Special Forces to your house to detain you as an enemy combatant
           in the name of National Security?  Because they can now.
        \_ If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists.
           \_ Is that who my co-workers are?  I thought they looked
              suspicious.
2003/1/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26976 Activity:nil
1/3     Conservative censorship in action
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/01/03/MN120712.DTL
        Someone else can run this through the URL redirector.  Maybe if
        we all close our eyes the problem will go away.
        \_  ...so his claim is that this single-number economic indicator
           is *really* important for letting the average person judge the
           health of corporate America, huh?  How many people here have
           heard of this, or would trust it , vs. the number of people
           who have heard of and trust the figures from http://www.fuckedcompany.com
           If the US atorney general were to go after fuckedcompany for
           some reason, it would be censorship. there are plenty  of examples
           of the Bush adminsistration trying to restrict speach in the U.S.
           without making them up.
                        \_ For your future reference, "speech" is not spelled
                           "speach".  Thank you.
                           \_ my spelling isn't much worse than the
                              guys who wrote the constitution.
           \_ So the number of people who were laid off is unimportant? Then
              the corresponding number of how many jobs have been "created,"
              often a selling point in Presidental campaigns, is unimportant.
              How can you take into context one of these numbers without the
              other? It creates a statistic with a lack of context. The number
              has been used regularly by the media, economists, and people
              who make predictions on the national trends.
        \_ Ending a government program is censorship the same way
           smoking is free speech - i.e. it isn't.
        \_ I don't think this word censorship means what you think it means.
           And no, I've never heard of this until it was reported they were
           ending it.  It must be censorship that they didn't advertise the
           number more so more people would know about it so we could all tell
           how well the economy is doing instead of just looking at a
           newspaper.  Try harder, grasshopper.
           \_ Have you ever read a newspaper?  Where do you think they got
              all those "stories" about layoffs at all those companies?
        \_ It's not censorship.  It's called covering their asses.
           \_ That's not what CYA means.  It's definitely something but it
              sure isn't CYA.
2002/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26865 Activity:nil
12/19   Follow the money:
        http://csua.org/u/70f
        \_ But your link doesn't say the important parts: who gave all this
           money to the two parties and what was the payback?
           \_ http://opensecrets.org
2002/12/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:26808 Activity:insanely high
12/12   Pop quiz:
        President Bush today announced two actions.
        1. He will cut federal funds for winter heat assistance to the
        poorest people in America.
        2. He will permit faith-based groups to use federal funds to
        practice religious discrimination.
        For 10 points, which of these actions was compassionate and which
        action was conservative?
        For 5 points extra credit, would a faith-based group include Wiccans?
        \_ What's wrong with this?  He just wants you to pray before you
           get a lump of coal in your sock.
        \_ hey did you read that WSJ editorial about how
           there isn't sufficient public outrage on taxes because
           most really really poor people don't pay much taxes, percentage
           wise, humorously calling them "lucky duckies"?  that was great.
        \_ Pop quiz: 1) you're a leftist troll or 2) you're a trolling leftist.
           If you could at least get the news items right without tainting the
           descriptions with your personal bias maybe there'd be something to
           talk about.  You're just wasting bits like this.  If you were a
           conservative poster you'd already have been censored.
           \_ Actually the news items weren't biased in any way:
              http://tinyurl.com/3irw - heating cuts
              http://tinyurl.com/3is0 - faith-based groups - note the stuff
              about allowing discrimination
           \_ I would suspect neither.  He sounds more like a trolling
              Democrat.  There is no major leftist party in the United
              States.  Take a quick look at the leftist movement in Canada
              last decade if you need an accessable example.  For that
              matter, George W. Bush is not a conservative president.
              The Federal government will have expanded more in his two years
              that the entire eight years with Clinton once the Homeland
              Security bill goes into effect.
              \_ Do you consider HRC a standard party line Democrat?  She's
                 certainly a leftist.
                 \_ Uh huh. Who gave David Horowitz a csua account?
                    \_ You think she's *not* a leftist?
                       \_ Correct. Leftist is not a synonym for liberal,
                          except to the kooks. Look up the word "leftist"
                          in the dictionary or better yet, plug it into
                          a search engine and see what you get.
              \_ Correct!  Conservative and liberal no longer accurately
                 describe either of the two dominant parties.  We need
                 new, more descriptive labels. Vote now:
                 --                        evil, good:
                 --               miserly, shopaholic:
                 --          machiavellian, pollyanna: .
                 --               thieves, adulterers:
                 -- mother grabbers, grabbing mothers:
                 --                my side, your side:
                 --                 six, half a dozen: ..
        \_ No, you need to worship a real God. The Lord. Him. Wiccan? Don't
           they worship Satan? That will not do. It's not a real religion.
           \_ there are no real gods.
                \_ Except Tom. He's a Perl God.
                   \_ ???
              \_ no, some are integer, but most imaginary
           \_ "He seemed so certain about everything, didn't he? And yet
               none of his certainties was worth one hair of a woman's
               head. He wasn't even sure he was alive, because he was
               living like a dead man. Whereas it looked as if I was the
               one who'd come up emptyhanded. But I was sure about me,
               about everything, surer than he could ever be, sure of my
               life and sure of the death I had waiting for me. Yes, that
               was all I had. But at least I had as much of a hold on it as
               it had on me." --The Stranger, Albert Camus
               \_ Son, I say, son, quoting Camus?  You might as well just
                  bit of self-pride that we think we have will be gone
                  before death consumes us.
                  before death consumes us.  Have you tasted death, the
                  wave your ACLU membership card around too.
                  \_ I'm proud of the ACLU, I think defending our civil
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness.
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness, forebolding
                  and relentless.
                     liberties is important.
                     \_ so do i.  what does that have to do with the ACLU
                        though?  they don't defend *my* civil liberties,
                        but then i don't belong to some pc entitlement class.
                        \_ To which civil liberties are you referring?
                           \_ The right to burn a cross on my own front lawn.
                              \_ That's not the ACLU, pal.
                              \_ Why would you want to burn a cross on your
                                 front lawn?  Is that some kind of sexual
                                 fetish?
                     \_ Life is just like masturbation.  a constant,
                        uncontrollable search for temporal pleasures,
                        only to find disappointments, and in the end,
                        emptiness.
                  \_ What the hell do Camus and the ACLU have in common?
               \_ Hold?  Nah, we have no hold on anything.  We will all come
                  up empty-handed.  It is all emptiness.  Even the little
                  bit of pride and nonchalance that we think we have will be
                  gone before death consumes us.  Have you tasted death, the
                  feeling of life slowly but surely draining away?
                  There is no peace.  It is no rest.  There is no hope.
                  Just the cold, the darkness and emptiness, foreboding
                  and relentlessly approaching.
                  \_ "when masturbation's lost its fun"
                     \_ You are right.  Life is just like masturbation
                        - a constant, uncontrollable search for temporal
                        pleasures, only to find disappointments, and in the
                        end, emptiness.
                        \_ You're not doing either correctly.
                           \_ It is not a matter of technique.  It is a
                              matter of essense.
2002/12/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26771 Activity:nil
12/9    Why is Clarence Thomas hated?
        Because he was selected only because he was the only black person
        Bush could find who was stupid enough to buy the conservative
        agenda, and Bush didn't seem to mind that he was completely
        unqualified for the position, and is a complete idiot to boot.
        \_ Because the Democrats are Playah Hatahs.
        \_ Wow, this is perhaps the most racist statement I've ever seen.
           Why do you think one's skin color determines political party or
           idealogy? -emarkp
           \_ why're you so quick to jump up and cry racism?  A strict reading
              of the OP claims that black persons are smart.  Certainly smarter
              than most conservatives, many of whom are white..
              \_ the point is that you'd have to be an idiot to be both a
                 black person and a conservative; intelligent black people
                 know that guys named Bush are not their friends.
2002/12/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:26743 Activity:nil
12/6    http://csua.org/u/673
        Isreali settlers endure life on the front line.
        \_ so why don't they move back behind the Green Line?
           oh and just bait the freeper guy, the pittsburgh tribune-times
           is owned by Richard Mellon Scaife, the guy who bankrolled
           the right wing conspiracy
           \_ okay, I give, what does freeper mean?
              \_ a freeper is one who frequently reads the site
                 http://www.freerepublic.com
           \_ Pshaw, that's not Freeper bait, this is Freeper bait:
              http://csua.org/u/676
              Scaife implicated in suicide of internet critic.
             \_ that's pretty good
2002/12/6 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26732 Activity:nil
12/5    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=358926
        The American officer also had a low opinion of the Western journalists
        he met at Bagram. "They just hung around our base all day. Whenever we
        had some special operation, we'd offer the journalists some facility
        to go on patrol with our special forces and off they'd go - you
        know, 'we're on patrol with the special forces' - and they wouldn't
        realise we were stringing them along to get them out of the way."
        \_ Same author:
           http://www.counterpunch.org/fiskbeaten.html
2002/12/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26729 Activity:high
12/5    Is the name of the suspect always release when someone is arrested for
        a crime but before a trial is conducted?  Thx.
        \_ Arrest records are public records, meaning that anyone who
           wants to can go down to the courthouse and look at them.
           \_ Unless the feds believe that the records could compromise
              nat. sec. or since 9/11 if the person is arrested on the
              assumption that he/she is a "terrorist".
              \_ Was this ObOurRightsOurBeingVioledIHateGWB?
                 \_ Its ObOurRightsAreBeingViolatedIHateJohnAshcroft.
                    \_ Ah, I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.
                        \_ There is a subtle difference. I don't hate
                           GWB. He seems like some of the frat boys I
                           used to meet at Cal. Not so bright, but lots
                           of fun at parties and can help boring geeks
                           get dates with cute chix.
                           The one problem with frat boys is that they
                           often get mixed up with the wrong crowd (ie
                           Rumsfeld, Cheney, Poindexter, Ashcroft, etc).
                           \_ So you think frat guys are nice?  Exactly what
                              do you think your wrong crowd types were doing
                              in school?  Avoiding frats?
                              \_ I didn't say that all frat guys are nice,
                                 just some of them. The problem is that
                                 the nice ones often get screwed over by
                                 the not so nice ones as is most likely
                                 the case with GWB.
                                 \_ I voted for him bc I think he's a hard ass.
                                    I don't think he's nice at all.
                                    \_ I voted for GWB because I expected
                                       him to get medieval with some intern's
                                       ass with the iron rod of capitalism.
                                       \_ I was hoping for an inanimate, carbon
                                          rod.
        \_ i believe minors are an exception -- caliban
2002/12/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26701 Activity:insanely high
12/2    Got plutonium? http://www.craigslist.org/sfo/sfc/for/7146762.html
        \_ wow, how long before someone tracks this guy down and tosses his
           ass in a cell for 15 months before they decide he's not a threat?
           \_ He can be an "enemy combatant" and detained indefinately without
              access to a phone, let alone a lawyer.
              \_ ...and according to Ashcroft, just by suggesting that
                 this might be a bad idea, you are helping the Terrorists.
                 But that's ok.  as long as people on the motd get to
                 pay very slightly lower taxes they don't give a shit about
                 due process or constitutional rights.
                 \_ yes because if I voted for Bush and lower taxes it must be
                    because I knew in advance that he'd appoint ashcroft and
                    ashcroft is an idiot and I'm 100% behind anything Bush does
                    or says as if it came from the Mouth Of God(c) because I'm
                    a conservative.  Or we could pretend we're adults and not
                    paint those with differing viewpoints with a huge brush
                    all in one color unless it makes us feel really smart even
                    though it shouldn't.
        \_ When I was growing up, US keeps preaching to my country's
           government: "Detention without trial is wrong!  blah blah blah".
           Now US is doing the exact same thing.  This country has no self-
           respect.
           \_ The difference being that in China you murder people for reading
              the net and sending email.  Here, we captured a bunch of bomb
              laden terrorist thugs and will hold them safe, fed, and far away
           alot of time in Pakistan.
           Where was the liberal outrage over Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.?
           Its clear this administration has not abused the powers its been
           delegated by the Patriot Act and HSA.  Can't wait until Hillary
           or the next Clinton administration gets into office.
              until they stop trying to kill us all.  See that subtle diff?
              \_ Huh? ... I have never been to China, unless you count
                 Hong Kong, which was still under lease when I visited.
                 Lots of countries faced threats much greater than thosed posed
                 by some ragtag terrorists, with much less resources to fight
                 against those threats.  How fast US abandons its principles
                 once it encounters some problems of its own.  So much for its
                 belief in freedom and due process, and the many who died
                 fighting for these.  At least, US knows now to shut its big
                 mouth.
              \_ bomb laden?  who was that?
                 \_ the guy who paid for the 9/11 bombings and a bunch of other
                    attacks?  you've been on this planet right?
                    \_ readingcomprehensionP
                       \_ #f
        \_ All of TWO U.S. citizens have been detained.  Both have access
           lawyers and have had their cases brought before judges.  One is
           enemy-combatant, the other is useless scum who conveniently spent
           alot of time in Pakistan.  Where was the liberal outrage over Waco,
           Ruby Ridge, etc.?  How has this administration abused the powers
           its been delegated by the Patriot Act and HSA.  Can't wait until
           Hillary or the next Clinton administration gets into office. [fmtd]
           \_ Hundreds, perhaps thousands of non-citizens were swept off the
              \_ can you recomend a book or article or documentary or web site
                 on Waco or Ruby Ridge?
              streets and kidnapped out of their houses in the middle of the
              night. The government will not release their names or let them
              talk to a lawyer. We do not know the conditions of their
              imprisonment or the term of their confinement. This is outrageous.
           \_ Why should there be liberal outrage?  It's not like the guy at
              Ruby Ridge won a friggin' lawsuit against the Feds after they
              killed his wife and then used the money to fund extremist groups
              determined who want to overthrow the government.  Gotta love
              Janet.  Or maybe you think the same folks fucked up at Waco where
              they could have pulled DK off the street while he was shopping
              for groceries every week and instead laid on with the heavy jack
              boot siege which led to an inferno which directly caused the
              deaths of many people including several children.  What's wrong
              with that?  In both cases the victims were christian and didn't
              support the left.  Death is the right answer.  The candle lit
              vigils are only for the mass murderers and child rapists.
              \_ They were Christians?
                 \_ Ruby Ridge and Waco, yes.  The mass murderers only find
                    Jesus after they're on death row which is too fucking late
                    for their victims who no one (but their families) seems to
                    remember or give a shit about.
           \_ The ACLU, which is a poster boy for the liberal left, was
              very upset over the abuses at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Go to their
              site and do a search and you will see all the stuff they did,
              including testifying to Congress, at the time.
2002/11/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26668 Activity:kinda low
11/28   And my God!  They're taking over the book stores too!
        Current http://Amazon.com sales rankings:

        "Joined At the Heart: - 2,001
        "The Spirit Of the Family" - 5,664
        "Earth In the Balance" - 58,691

        "George and Laura: Portrait of an American Marriage" - 94
        "Bush At War" - 2
        "Let's Roll" - 123
2002/11/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26662 Activity:moderate
11/28   But when Scott Armstrong, founder of the National Security Archive
        and a former staff member of Senate Watergate committee was
        told of the news, he laughed for a solid minute. - danh
        \_ was told of what news?  WTF are you trying to talk about?
           thankfully no one is able to read your mind.  post a link or kill
           your post.  you're wasting precious bits.
        \_ Henry Kissinger: This Man Is On The Other Side
           http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/797596/posts?page=1,50
           \_ The above about Armstrong is *not* in the freeper link.  This
              is all BS.
        \_ Here's what plastic has to say about Kissinger:
           http://www.plastic.com/article.html?sid=02/11/27/18402146;cmt=55
           Poliitical satire became obsolete when they awarded Henry
           Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize.
2002/11/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26657 Activity:high
11/28   President Bush Opens U.S. Roads to Mexican Trucks
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/797121/posts?page=1,50
        \_ Yes, the rest of us knew that from real news sources which the FR
           is not.  Did you have a reason to post this?
2002/11/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26654 Activity:very high
11/27   How is a Kissinger led fact-finding commission going to reassure
        Americans about anything? I really don't understand this, what
        is Bush's purpose in putting that man in charge? Conservatives,
        help me understand here, is Kissinger actually well respected and
        trusted by anyone? -ausman
        \_ it's about the money.  It's all about the money.
        \_ could you give a news link to tell those of us who live in
           a Faraday cage with a text terminal what you are talking about?
           \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/politics/27CND-BUSH.html
        \_ The Nobel committee (along with Arafat).  -tom
        \_ He is, no shit, a rock star to conservatives young and old.
     Let me speak honestly, frankly, openheartedly. You are a liar.
                                        --Le Duc Tho to Henry Kissinger
     I showed nothing on my face, but in my heart, I laughed and laughed.
                                        --Henry Kissinger
                                                                \- psb
           \_ In a way, Kissiner is an American hero.  He act solely upon
              the interest of American States. In the process, again
              and again fulfilled American's Imperial agenda over the
              world.  The price, is violate just about every  idealogy
                which the founding fathers envisioned about human rights,
                civil rights, and democracy.  Then again, he got
                Nobel Peace price, something I still couldn't figure out
                why.
                \_ The FF didn't believe in democracy or what we today refer
                   to as human rights.  As far as the "Imperial" agenda goes,
                   we'd be the first country to ever exert our so called
                   imperial power through McDonald's and Nike.  If other
                   countries don't want us to be powerful they should stop
                   giving us so much money for our stuff.  The Nobel PP is a
                   complete crock.  They gave it to Arafat, a known murderer
                   and terrorist.  Try to figure *that* one out.  Kissinger
                   might not be a nice person but he never pulled a trigger.
        \_ I'm not sure which is a better line but we need more of both of
           these types of men.
        \_ Kissinger: He'll find whatever there is to find.  It is just a
           case of how it gets reported and spun.  As far as will it reassure
           anyone, dunno.  I find it more reassuring than if say Jimmy Carter
           or some other ninny was doing it.  At least this way there'll be a
           file with the truth in it that'll come out in 50 years at worst.
           \_ Okay, some are reassured. That is all I wanted to know, thanks.
              \_ And others are waiting to see where they're going to fit
                 Haig back into the club.
                 \_ Or maybe Walter Mondale.  He'd make a good Senator or
                    something!
2002/11/24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26622 Activity:nil
11/24   7am, earthquake anyone?
        \_ http://csua.org/u/5f8 -from http://sfgate.com --urld
2002/11/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26621 Activity:very high
11.24   http://csua.org/u/5f7
        _ In Berkeley, Calif., hundreds of University of California fans
        overwhelmed security guards and tore down the goal posts following the
        Golden Bears' 30-7 over rival Stanford. Some of the fans were taken
        away in handcuffs.
        \_ hey mom, i'm in jail!
        \_ Yay!
        \_ Yes we did =)  -was there, carried the goalpost to sproul
        \_ How hard are those goalposts to remove?  Are they expensive
           to replace?
           \_ Not very hard to remove when you have a mob of Cal students.
              Rumor has it that each costs circa $15K.
              \_ I cannot remember which liberal school was involved, but one
              \_ I cannot remember which schools were involved, but one
                 recently agreed to pay another $5k for a goalpost that
                 its students tore down in the other's stadium, so I
                 think $15k might be a bit high, unless it's the bay
                 area's high cost of living kicking in again...
              \_ I'm sure the football-backer alumni will pay for it.
2002/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26534 Activity:very high
11/12   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46165-2002Nov12.html
        My favorite quote from this article:
        "George W. Bush is a usurper of power, an incompetent frat-boy fool
        and a radical extremist (or the incompetent frat-boy-fool pawn of the
        radical extremists who control him and his White House). In domestic
        governance, the fool-extremist Bush administration embraces
        anti-environmental, corporatist, plutocratic policies that must, if
        properly exposed, meet with mainstream rejection. In foreign policy,
        the administration is at once inept and menacing: a know-nothing
        president led by a cabal of neo-imperialists into an unwanted war, the
        prospect of which has alienated the world and the reality of which
        will be a corpse-rich quagmire".  [which of you self righteous lying
        censoring right winger nut cases deleted this?  restored!]
        \_ what makes you think he's a liberal? he just own stocks.
        \_ Which brings us to the 'napalm the fuckin bastards' school of
           law enforcement.  -John
           \_ Um.  what? --scotsman
        \_ Change radical to Reactionary, and I think we have a winner.
        \_ Hey wasn't this here yesterday? Where's the motd god now?
2002/11/11 [Computer/SW/Mail, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26512 Activity:nil
11/11   Henceforward, all criticism of mutt and/or non-negative statements
        about pine will be summarily removed from the motd. Thank you for
        your cooperation.
        \_ Are you the bozo that keeps censoring anti-Bush comments?
           \_ Anti-Bush comments are anti-American and pro-Terrorist.
2002/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26490 Activity:nil 55%like:26476
11/8    http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110002593
        Good advice the democrats will ignore.
        [restored... as if the wsj was lower quality than the other crap
         that gets quoted here]
2002/11/8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26476 Activity:nil 55%like:26490
11/8    http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110002593
        Good advice the democrats will ignore.
2002/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:26456 Activity:kinda low
11/7    Does anyone have recommendations for colo facilities in the bay
        area?  It's for business, and high uptime is important.
        \_ http://he.net, down in south fremont.
           \_ if you have the money id say go w/ someoen other than http://he.net
              they are friendly and have smart guys but not the greatest
              network and peering. exodus or at&t or similar.
              \_ What's wrong with their peering?  they've got quite a few
                 very reliable peers and big phat pipes.  And they won't
                 dick you around on quotes for colo.  My last two companies
                 have both done business with them, and i can't remember more
                 than three downtimes over 4 years.  and none were more than
                 an hour.
        \_ Verio is owned by NTT so they'll be around for a bit and since
           they don't want to lose (any more) jobs, they work hard to keep
           customers happy and give you a fair price.  They've been around
           for a while.  My company uses them and is happy.
2002/11/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26448 Activity:very high
11/6    http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,830061,00.html
        An honest look at GWB from England's leading liberal publication.
        \_ just because it said something you like, you call it "honest
           look."  Has Berkeley taught you ANYTHING?
           \_ So is the guardian honest only when it says something you like?
              \_ I hope that wasn't a serious attempt at an argument.  -!OP
2002/10/28-29 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26339 Activity:moderate
10/28   http://www.evilninja.net/buybush.htm
        \_ brilliant.
        \_ at least it's a bit more clever than the standard "bush is stupid
           and stole the election from that nice man Al".
2002/10/26 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26326 Activity:moderate
10/25   Democrat dies is a plane crash off setting the Rep/Dem balance of
        power. The republicans did it.
        \_ Yeah, the Dems have 3 dead people running in this election--
           Wellstone, the senator in Hawaii, and Toricelli (oh wait, he just
           sucked.)
           \_ that Democractic missouri candidate died too and won.  Ashcroft
              lost that race.
2002/10/23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26290 Activity:very high
10/22   Who here lived in USSR for 13 years?
        \_ Me.
        \_ Me too (well, almost -- 12.2)
        \_ Not the stupid kid who thinks Bush's USA is worse than the USSR
           at any time including now as Russia/Ukraine/etc.
           \_ You're dumber than Bush if that's how you interpreted that.
              \_ He said Bush's regime makes USSR look like a 'flowering
                 democracy.'  How would you interpret it?
                 \_ Uhm, most likely as sarcasm or irony.
                 \_ If someone says "I'm starving. I could eat a horse.",
                    do you actually interpret that as the person is really
                    dying of hunger and has the digestive capacity to
                    eat a horse?
                    \_ sarcasm doesn't translate well into ascii
        \_ Is that your magic number?
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26241 Activity:nil
10/17   Enron trader pleads guilty:
        http://csua.org/u/421
        Finally, the deregulators are getting their comeuppance. Watch, one
        of the libertarians will cry "but it wasn't *real* de-regulation."
2002/10/17-18 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26232 Activity:high
10/17   Rumsfeld sez: North Korea has Nukyoolar weapons.
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2337997.stm
        \_ Someday the words "nuculous" and "nucular" will be in Webster.
        \_ You know, in the past few months, I've heard a number of high-level
           leaders say "Nukular"--members of congress (R and D), military
           leaders, etc.  I've come to accept that it's dialect not intellect.
           \_ But when your speech writer explcitly spells the word "nuclear"
              on a sheet of paper, you would think that the speaker would, at
              least, try to pronounce it phonetically.
              \_ You'd think that but you'd be wrong.  Take a few basic cogsci
                 courses on vision, language, and memory.
              \_ How do you pronounce February?
                 \_ /fEbru3ri/
        \_ I think it's funny all the leftists ragging on Bush for nukular
           when Jimmy Carter (also from the south) was the first President
           to say nukular in a public speech.
              \- er doesnt carter have a phd in nuclear engineering?
                 that may buy him some cover. --psb
           \_ Try Eisenhower.
        \_ note that:
           http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=nuclear
           lists "nukyular" as an acceptable pronunciation.
2002/10/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26144 Activity:very high
10/9    Gephardt promises amnesty if....
        http://csua.org/u/3d7
        \_ Oh yah right like this is news or something.  The rest of us have
           known for years that people like this have been willing to
           sell out the country in exchange for some temporary power while it
           all swirls down the bowl.  Stop posting the obvious.
        \_ Reagan granted amnesty to 2.7M illegals; Bush the First even more.
        \_ Reagan granted amnesty to 2.7M illegals; Bush the First some more.
           Even Bush the Pretender did this. All politicians do this.
           \_ Let's keep to the facts.  When did Bush II grant amnesty to any
              illegals?  And Bush I?  I think not.  It was 1986 (*sorry* for
              injecting fact into your diatribe) for the big flood and nothing
              of note after that.  How many maid services were started in 1986
              in California.  Mine was.  Gosh what a coincedence.
              \_ Here is Buchanan attacking Bush II for granting amnesty:
                 http://csua.org/u/3e1
                 Sorry I can't find a more reliable source, but it was not
                 widely reported at the time.
                 \_ Uh, GO! PAT! GO! is your source?  Get over it.
                    \_ Bush The Pretender extended a Clinton amnesty.
                       Search google if you have not heard of it. Neither
                       party tried to make hay out of it, for obvious
                       reasons.
2002/10/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26072 Activity:nil
10/1    please make gwb 1-term prez. plez?
        \_ with the country reduced to a smoking ruin, who's going to be around
           to reelect him?
           \_ the supreme court.
           \_ You meant to say, 30 states, including Florida.
        \_ With an intelligent and well formed appeal like this, how can I not
           vote for Al Gore, The Smartest Man In The Universe?  Chalk me up
           for a second Bush term, thanks.
           \_ Is Gore still the frontrunner for Democratic nomination?
           \_ Don't expect it if the economy is still in the tank in two years.
              \_ Bush may not win a second term but Gore will never win a first
                 term in this country.  The dems would be insane to run him
                 a second time.  He's dirty and has big baggage.
2002/9/30-10/1 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26059 Activity:very high
9/30    which aspect of libertarianism are you upholding by deleting
        motd threads you don't agree with?  fucking asshole hypocrytes.
        \_ Huh?  It isn't a libertarian deleting motd threads they disagree
           with.  Most of it is a single big gubbmint liberal.
           \_ Riiiiiight.
              \_ I've been keeping track.  I know who has been naughty and
                 who has been nice.
        \_ It is probably not a libertarian, but a cranky Republican. Post
           something critical of Bush and see how fast it gets deleted.
           \_ i was refereing to a specific thread which was deleted the
              instant it became insulting to libertarians.
              \_ Look fools, I'm telling you I keep track and it has nothing to
                 do with who was getting slammed.  Anything not interesting to
                 this particular person gets deleted the instant they see it.
                 \_ oh, yeah?  who is it?
                   \_ Not, I post articles critical of Bush from
                      freerepublic all the time that are deleted.
                      Conservatives do not need to censor because their
                      ideas are superior and defensible under the
                      scrutiny of facts.  Look for example, at the level
                      of discourse in any Democratic / Socialist
                      event or protest.
                      \_ can you name a single political perspective
                         whose posts do not get constantly deleted by
                         idiots on the motd?  censoring idiots clearly
                         come from all points on the political spectrum
                         on the motd(or they just don't give a shit
                         and like to delete.)  some censors call themselves
                         liberal and some call themselves conservative,
                         but they all have thing in common: they are
                         cowards.
2002/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26051 Activity:nil
9/30    http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/iraq.congressmen
        Rep. Fonda, D-Hollywood goes to Iraq.
2002/9/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:25957 Activity:insanely high
9/19    Have any one actually read Bush's National Security Strategy?
        It looks like in the name of freedom and liberty, we are essentially
        going to destory any nation that has a remote chance of challenge
        US's dominating position in the world.
        \_ That is untrue.  China and India have more potential to challenge
           the USA's hegemony but we aren't stopping them are we?
           Is your generalization brush a bit too thick?
        \_ That is sadly how the US is. The US needs war to survive,
           we need to constantly find targets or otherwise people who
           backed little bush will not be getting rich. Bush actually
           doesn't give a shit about national security, he doesn't
           even know what it is. What he knows is, he who throw money
           into his campaign, he much pay them back with real hard tax
           dollar. You can bet that if, and when we are done with
           Iraq, we will immediately move on to the next target (that
           in time we will surely identify, anyone remember China
           before 911?) Without war, little bush know he will be
           facing critizm from all over regarding his administration,
           when we are in war, the country is much more united, and
           that's his edge. He'll be in the office for 4 years and
           we'll have 4 years of war. You can be sure of that. If it's
           not iraq, it'll be someone else. Bush doesn't give a fuck,
           he needs war to survive.
           \_ the problem right now is there's no balance in the
              world. The US is too powerful for any nation to
              challenge directly, so we do whatever the hell we
              please, with no regard to consequences or human life or
              whatever. And then you have this war hungry bush come on
              board, bin-ladin gave him exactly what he wanted, a way
              to put america into 4 years of war. What Clinton built
              in 8 years, bush destoried in a few months. The good
              thing is he'll only be in office in 4 years and we all
              hope the damage is not too severe. The same cannot be
              said for the other countries. You'll bet that after the
              war, there will be 100 more bin-ladins in the world that
              will want to destory everything that is about America.
              And people just don't stop and think why?
        \_ URL?
           \_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf
              \_ I read it and I don't think it says what you think it says.
                 It is reasonably balanced. -Bush Hating Leftist
        \_ Is this what your commie-berkeley education has help you conclude?
           Do you guys always just simply doubt everything America does to the
           world? I suppose you have a better alternative? Name one. Then go
           there and start accusing that government of the same thing. Better
           yet, look at history, find another #1 country that is as mostly
           benevolent as America. You will not. America - love it or leave it.
           Period.  [formatd]
           \_ This kind of shit is unprecedented in our history, pal, at least
              as an open book policy.  What ever happened to the republican
              rhetoric of "we can't serve as the world police force..."  I
              guess rigging an election makes one more aware of actual
              "politics"
              \_ Speak softly and carry a big stick and right makes might
                                                        \_ might makes right
                 both seem to have disappeared as well. George the 2nd's
                 speeches seem more like NBA/WWF pre-game/match bad mouthing
                 and blustering than serious deliberations on policy. I guess
                 anything more is too much to expect from someone who thought
                 greeks were "grecians".
                 \_ Here's someone who didn't read the new policy.  Come back
                    when you're grown up and stopped watching wrestling.
              \_ The policy is not to be the world's police force.  The policy
                 is to stomp the shit out of anyone that is working on ways to
                 kill us.  If they want to kill each other such as in Africa,
                 that's ok.  The new policy says nothing about that.  Not our
                 problem because we're still not the world's police force.
                 \_ Given this, why hasn't America invaded Columbia? Their
                    government is incapable of handling the drug trafficing
                    trade. Surely ridding America of the death, violence,
                    crime, and economic hardship caused by Columbian drugs
                    would be more useful than invading a country that might
                    have WMD that it could use.
                    \_ We have invaded Columbia. Where have you been? It's
                       mostly covert, though. --dim
                       \_ Hmm. This doesn't bode well for any new invasions
                          that are in the planning stage.
           \_ America != The Executive Branch. I love my country and the
              principles on which it was founded, but I do not love the
              activities of the current (or even most previous)
              administrations.
              \_ Which do you like?  Are you a Jimmy Carter fan?
                 \_ Truman, Ike, JFK and Reagan were okay. Before that,
                    TR, Lincoln, Jefferson and Madison.
           \_ All these native american nations... hmm... prime example of
              american's "benevolence"  And remember, we nuked 300k Japanese
              civilians for their suprise attack of Pearl Harbor which results
              in 3000+ mostly military casuaties.
              \_ Would you have preferred a ground invasion of Japan?
              \_ Ah my friend, how easily you forget the death march of
                 bataan...
              \_ Japan raped and killed 300k in the city of Nanjing alone in
                 one week or so.
                 \_ Do you really believe the US gave a shit about what was
                    happening to the Chinese?
           \_ This person votes.  Scary.
              I left it, you have my permission to stay there.  -John
              \_ Stay where you are.  We'll get around to the rest of Europe
                 eventually.  You don't have to come back to be a part of the
                 US.
           \_ This person votes.  Sweet.  So do I.  --fully agree with person
2002/9/18 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25925 Activity:very high
9/18    Anybody else annoyed at all this bickering over money for those who
        died on 9/11?  I understand that they need the money.  But why is
        private life insurance not enough?  Why does the US gov't have to
        get involved in paying the families?  We're talking about something
        like 1+ million dollars per family.  This is on top of the life
        insurance they're getting.
        \_ Anybody who could ask questions like this must really hate America.
           \_ not at all. I don't hate America but I also don't
              think that the federal government owes anybody
              anything because of 9-11. They didn't bomb the WTC,
              pentagon, or pennsylvania, after all.
        \_ Maybe this is not compensation but disaster relief aid?  But $1M per
           family of relief aid is way too much compared to aids in other
           disasters.  It's all politics in this case.
           \_ Maybe the other cases didn't get enough and should?  Who is to
              say?
              \_ Are you saying every family who has members killed in a car
                 accident or a fire or a robbery should get $1M from the
                 federal govt?
                 \_ Is a car accident a national disaster requiring relief?
                    \_ No, and that's my point.  Why do families of killed
                       victims of 9/11 "require" $1M fed aid while those of
                       killed victims of random car accidents or bank robberies
                       don't?
                       \_ i suppose the gov't is responsible more for WTC
                          because it was the gov't that pissed off bin laden.
                       \_ it has nothing to do with "responsible" as the
                          morally bankrupt would claim.  it has to do with
                          scale.  when one DUI rams his car into a wall, the
                          country goes on.  when 3000 people die, 4 planes go
                          down, 2 *HUGE* buildings are gone, and the pentagon
                          gets a big hole in it, people need to know the govt
                          is doing something.  disaster relief for family
                          victims is one small part of that.
                          \_ I thought our impending invasion of Iraq was
                             our government's way of letting the people
                             know that they're doing something.
                             \_ Nothing to do with it.
           \_ It was a reflexive response. Note that for all those killed
              in the Sept. 11 attacks (including non-Americans) are getting
              the money. In the Sudanese embassy bombing, only Americans are
              being compensated (this means non-citizen employees and
              bystanders killed/hurt by the blast are not getting money).
              It's all very emotional. See the Red Cross incident.
        \_ The reasonable bickering is about cases like the Red Cross who
           ostensibly raised money for the families of the victims, but then
           were *very* stingy about actually giving it to them.  Given the
           public response for the victims, I don't see a need for federal aid
           for the victims (except perhaps in helping them contact the various
           charities).
2002/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25907 Activity:very high
9/17    Leaked from the Pentagon that upcoming Iraq campaign has been
        rechristened "Desert Storm Again" since it was discovered that
        President Bush couldnt pronounce the word "redux" correctly.
        [motdformatd]                              \- maybe he was using the
                                                      british pronounciation
                                                        /- and we all know
                that the Brits are so stupid that they can't spell color
                right and pronunciate aluminum correctly.
                \_ the is like metallica's album "reload" after the album
                   load.  to bad they both sucked.
        \_ What is redux derived from?
2017/11/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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