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| 11/23 |
| 2005/9/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39601 Activity:nil |
9/9 At least Al Gore saved some lives in New Orleans. It is really
too bad we didn't get the President we elected:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/7/164747/4155 |
| 2005/9/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39589 Activity:nil |
9/9 FEMA director Brown relieved of Hurricane Katrina duties
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1481155/posts
\_ "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." - gwbush
\_ This will be transformed into "Brownie who?" in the coming
months.
\_ Or, "It was a sarcasm."
\_ No need to refute that. He was pulled off so FEMA can be ready
with its top guy for the next disaster. The replacement was
always part of the plan. (When he quietly moves on in a few
months, it will be to spend more time with his family.) |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39576 Activity:nil 50%like:38884 |
9/8 Compare the CBS News poll and CNN/Gallup poll, and how the way
a question is asked can produce results giving dramatically different
impressions on the Hurricane Katrina disaster:
http://www.pollingreport.com/disasters.htm
\_ CNN/Gallup also started their poll on Labor Day. I wonder what
effect that has in the makeup of respondees. |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39572 Activity:nil |
9/8 http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/08.html#a4856 Mississippi resident yells "Go f-ck yourself" during Cheney interview. (click movie link, wait 1 minute until web site responds) \_ Who cares? \_ sodans do! but obviously not the bush luvahs \_ The Mississippi resident is just practicing the golden rule \_ No, he is practicing the reverse Golden Rule, also known as the psb rule. |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39571 Activity:nil |
9/8 http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/08.html#a4851 Watch conservative Joe Scarborough, while saying Nagin and the LA governor are inept and in over their heads, ask why Dubya's people didn't run New Orleans as efficiently as the Florida hurricanes (three different sections where he talks) |
| 2005/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39569 Activity:nil |
9/8 "People who do not want to play The Blame Game....
are to blame." - last night's daily show.
\_ i think it's the 'meet the f**ckers' link
http://tinyurl.com/9c3ko
http://tinyurl.com/9c3ko - danh
\_ That was really good, thanks!
\_ are you talking about Iraq and its role in 9/11 attack? |
| 2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39548 Activity:high |
9/7 "The three top jobs at the Federal Emergency Management Agency under
President Bush went to political cronies with no apparent experience
coping with catastrophes"
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/344004p-293718c.html
\_ What no one here seems to understand is that FEMA has always been
an idiotic and inept agency run by the cronies of whoever is in
power at the time. It has never been different. I was shocked
that so many other people were shocked at how poorly FEMA handled
their duties until I realised that most people don't understand
that FEMA has never been any different.
\_ Then why did the (governor of Lousiana?) get the head of
FEMA under Clinton to help out?
\_ "FEMA has always been an idiotic and inept agency"
\_ so, you think it is a good idea to install another cronies
after 9/11 when entire US is under terrorist threat?
you are very funny.
\_ This is so much partisan bullshit I can't believe it.
"FEMA has always been an idiotic and inept agency"
Who the fuck are you, man?
Who are you, man?
http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm
"In 1993, President Clinton nominated James L. Witt as the new
FEMA director. Witt became the first agency director with
experience as a state emergency manager."
\_ exactly. thanks for making my point. so one time for one
term this one agency had a director who became the *first*
such directory with experience in the field. and you believe
this somehow magically makes FEMA into a great and well
functioning .org until the other party gets in power? Geeze,
talk about partisan bullshit. Except I *can* believe it since
this is the motd. I don't expect reason, logic, common sense.
I do expect people with a political axe to grind, an agenda
to push and an insanely deep faith in the perfection of the
government (esp if it's federal level) followed by endless
rants about evil and/or incompetence when something doesn't
go right federally with excuses made for any local official
as long as the local is from the same party as the ranter.
\_ "He initiated sweeping reforms that streamlined disaster
relief and recovery operations, insisted on a new
emphasis regarding preparedness and mitigation, and
focused agency employees on customer service."
So, do you know what happened to the Veterans
Administration after the appointment of an experienced
leader?
Your label of me as someone who has "an insanely deep faith
in the perfection of the government" is even more
incredible partisan bullshit.
Let's get back to something concrete:
Do you know what happened to the VA after the appointment
of an experience leader?
of an experience leader? -jblack
\_ With very few exceptions all government agencies are very slow
and mostly inept. FEMA is like the DMV of emergency management.
That said, the group of people most responsible for this
disaster are the citizens of NO that stayed in a below-sea-level
bowl with an approaching category 5 hurricane (20 ft storm
surge and 160+ mph winds). Certainly you have compassion on
the small fraction of elderly that were incapable of leaving,
but besides them, these morons of NO created a massive
humanitarian disaster that the US taxpayer now has to pay to
clean up. Next in the line of blame are the inept local and
state officials. There is a very specific chain of command
in disaster response which starts with local authorities. By law
Federal government can only respond at the request of a state,
\_ Are you just stupid? How many times to we have to tell you?
The state DID put in a request for federal assistance.
\_ Are you just stupid Justin? How many times to we have to tell
you? The state DID put in a request for federal assistance.
And it was clearly spelled out that state and local
officials don't have sufficient resources to deal with
the disaster. You can't blame them. When a category 4
hurricane wipes out your emergency services, you're kind
of dependent on outside help.
\_ A state of emergency was declared on Saturday August
27th by the President. FEMA rescue and medical squads
were prepositioned then for the disaster. What you
\_ FEMA squads were given 48 hours to get 1000 people
there. That order came down on MONDAY AFTERNOON.
Two days after the president's emergency declaration.
Just to be exact on what you apparently meant by "then"...
seem to miss is the FEMA/Fed is NOT a first responder.
I had not heard of the destruction of ALL of LA's emergency
services, national guard, and homeland security
resources, what did they do station them on a Gulf beach
to act as a sea wall? Its interesting that all of
NO was essentially intact after Katrina came through and
yet all of these resources were magically "wiped out".
I restate my position: the state
and local authorities criminally failed to execute their
emergency response plans.
\_ 1. It doesn't matter if the federal government declared
or "pre-positioned" anything because in the end, they
failed to act in a timely manner and did jack shit.
2. National Guard and Homeland Security are federal
agencies 3. NOLA being the largest city in LA, a large
enough portion of their emergency services were disabled
to warrant outside help. What was left of LA's resources
was insufficient. 4. Feds ARE the next responders when
state/local services are incapacitated. 4. "all of NO was
essentially intact"? Can I have some of whatever you're
smoking? 5. Your position that local authorities acted
criminally is a blatant attempt to mask the complete
ineptitude of federal authorities who were specifically
requested to help. You know, kind of like when you dial
911 during an emergency when you are in some way
incapacitated and need help? You would expect someone to
show up, not have them sit around their ass complaining
that you haven't given yourself CPR.
that you haven't given yourself CPR. -jblack
\_ You've been trolled by jblack. Dumb ass.
\_ but jblack is being serious isn't he?
\_ Exactly what emergency services are you are referring
to as 'destroyed'? The city was intact after
Katrina. You do realize the levies did not break
until the following morning, right?
There were 140 school buses subsequently submerged
under water 1 mile from the Superdome after the
1 mile from the Superdome after the
flood. Don't you think
maybe just maybe those kind of resources should
have been mobilized and prepositioned for use in
the case of flooding? Don't you think the
disappearance of 1/3 of NO police force is suspect?
The remaining police officers didn't even have
enough ammunition.
Isn't it possible that the city should have
prepositioned MREs and water somewhere above sea
level to feed people it sends to emergency shelters?
What you have is negligence
to put any plan whatsoever into action on the part
of the local authorities and consequently
the city descended into anarchy. The Feds showed up
when they are supposed to and when they always
have in the past - within 96 hours. Throwing up
your hands, crying, running around like a headless
chicken and accusing the CIA of
trying to kill you ala Blanco and Nagin is not
the execution of an emergency plan.
the execution of an emergency plan. You are
projecting responsibilities and authority to
the Federal govt it was never legally assigned. The
state and local authorities knew this and if they
failed to prepare for a fairly obvious disaster
scenario it is their fault. -jblack
scenario it is their fault.
FEMA is not a first-responder,
and FEMA does not have any military police powers to put down
an insurrection. The anarchy that erupted in the 1st 72 hrs
falls squarely at the feet of Blanco and Nagin who criminally
failed to execute their own emergency evacuation plans, as
required by LA law. Lastly, the Federal government dropped
the ball and should have recognized the scale of the impending
disaster because of the incompetence of the local authorities.
Moral of the story: people who rely of the government to
rescue them from a telegraphed natural disaster are going
to be disappointed.
to be disappointed. -jblack
\_ Your Honor, she deserved to be raped. She was asking for it.
\_ I would rely on government to prevent 90% of New Orleans from
being flooded with damage reportedly costing 4x over the
9/11 tragedy.
Am I disappointed? Yes. Could both the federal and state
government have done a better job (within reason)? Yes.
I would also say FEMA was in charge pre-Dubya, and was arguably
strong and effective under Clinton. Dubya weakened FEMA and
transferred primary responsibility for natural disasters to the
states. If a state can't hack it, then is it Dubya's fault for
not ensuring a proper transition, or the state's fault for
dropping the ball?
I already know what your opinion is, as you do mine.
\_ Let's get back to the original post:
How experienced was the head of FEMA under Clinton?
Under Dubya?
\_ 1999 Hurricane Swamped Clinton's FEMA
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/7/134914.shtml
How experienced was the head of FEMA under fucking Klinton?
Under our great commander-in-chief, Dubya? -jblack
\_ Experienced in doing FEMA stuff or experience with horses?
\_ Spelling it "Klinton" is klever.
\_ In September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- a category 3 -- was bearing
down on the Carolinas and Virginia.
\_ In September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- a category 3 -- was bearing down the
Carolinas and Virginia.
President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with
President Jiang of China (you know, actually working). He made the
proclamation that nly Presidents can make and declared the areas
affected by Floyd "Federal Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and
Military can begin to mobilize. Then he cut short his
meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the rescue
efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast.
That is how you do it.
President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with President
Jiang of China (you know, actually working). He made the proclamation that
only Presidents can make and declared the areas affected by Floyd "Federal
Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and Military can begin to mobilize. Then
Military can begin to mobilize. Then
he cut short his meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the
rescue efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast. That is
how you do it.
rescue efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast. That
is how you do it.
How about this dope's own father during Hurricane Andrew? Once again,
President Bush (41) -- August, 1992 -- was in the midst of a bruta
campain for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day
before and went to Washington where he maritaled
the largest military operation on US soil in soil in history.
He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular military
personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within
before and went to
Washington where he martialed the largest military operation on US
soil in history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular
military personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within
hours after Andrew passed through Florida. 'Cause, you know,
those people and their stuff was actually where it
belonged, rather than being used for insurgent target-
practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make
Iraq safe for Iranian takeover.
President Bush (41) -- August, 1992 -- was in the midst of a brutal campaign
for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day before and went to
Washington where he martialed the largest military operation on US soil in
history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular military
personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within hours after Andrew
passed through Florida. 'Cause, you know, those people and their stuff was
those people and their stuff was
actually where it belonged, rather than being used for insurgent
target-practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make Iraq safe
for Iranian takeover.
target-practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to make
Iraq safe for Iranian takeover.
In August of 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the
same area as Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the
National Guard and ordered all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment
from Tampa and Houston to follow the Hurricane in. There were over
1,00 regular milirary with two dozen helicopters to assist the
Coast Guard and National Guard within hours after the skies cleared.
In August of 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the same area as
Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the National Guard and ordered
all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to follow the
Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military with two dozen
helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and National Guard within hours after
the skies cleared.
National Guard and ordered
all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to
follow the Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military
with two dozen helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and
National Guard within hours after the skies cleared.
Bush 43 - August 2005 - Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on
New Orleans and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly
8,000 National Guard troops because they are in Iraq --
with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush is on vacation.
The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his
bike for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to his
Johnnie McCain's birthday party; and lies to old people about
the multi-billion pharmaceutical company welfare boondoogle.
8,000 National Guard troops because
they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush
is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his
bike for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to
Johnnie McCain's birthday party;
and lies to old people about the multi-billion-dollar
pharmaceutical company welfare boondoogle.
People are dying, the largest port of entry in the United
States (and fifth largest in the World) is under attack. Troops and
supplies are desperately needed. The levees are cracking and the
emergency 1-1/2 ton sandbags are ready, but there aren't enough
helicopters or pilots to set them before the levees fail.
The mayor of New Orleans begs for Federal coordination, but
there is none, and the sandbagging never gets done. So Bush
-- naturally -- goes to San Diego to play guitar with country
singer and lie to the military about how Iraq is just exactly like
WWII. The levees give way, filling New Orleans with water,
sewage, oil and chemicals. Ten percent of all US exports,
and 50% of all agricultural exports ordinarly go through this
port. It is totally destroyed. Bush decides he'll end his
vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS
TICKETS TO A PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford,
with every intention of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this
vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS TICKETS
TO A PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford, with
every intention of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this
disaster that happened starting last Sunday night.
\_ not exactly objective, but it got a lot of facts. Thanks.
Question: I thought HW Bush was being critized of handling
of Andrews, no?
Bush 43 - August 2005 - Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on New Orleans
and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly 8,000 National Guard
troops because they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed. Bush
is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his bike
for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to Johnnie McCain's birthday party;
and lies to old people about the multi-billion-dollar pharmaceutical company
welfare boondoggle. People are dying, the largest port of entry in the
United States (and fifth largest in the World) is under attack. Troops and
supplies are desperately needed. The levees are cracking and the emergency
1-1/2 ton sandbags are ready, but there aren't enough helicopters or pilots
to set them before the levees fail. The mayor of New Orleans begs for
Federal coordination, but there is none, and the sandbagging never gets
done. So Bush -- naturally -- goes to San Diego to play guitar with country
singer and lie to the military about how Iraq is just exactly like WWII. The
levees give way, filling New Orleans with water, sewage, oil and chemicals.
Ten percent of all US exports, and 50% of all agricultural exports ordinarly
go through this port. It is totally destroyed. Bush decides he'll end his
vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW --BECAUSE HE HAS TICKETS TO A
PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in Crawford, with every intention
of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this disaster that happened starting
last Sunday night.
\_ the best lies are mixed with facts. make it a long rant and
it becomes difficult to tease apart truth from fiction and
in a forum like the motd just not worth bothering.
\_ reiffin, i challenge you to a DUEL.
I am a COMMANDO. --ausman
\_ they have no bread? Well, then, let them eat cake!
\_ Thank you for the clear breakdown. This is exactly the issue.
jblack, your crap about "this isn't the feds" responsibility is
only true in your ugly little pipe dream world. Go buy an island
and start your own country. Then you can pay as little tax as
you want. |
| 2005/9/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39547 Activity:nil |
9/7 What does the Bush administration think firefighters should do
in Lousiana:
1) Hand out FEMA flyers:
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197
2) Be props to show that Bush is "working":
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/6/233139/2154 |
| 2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39541 Activity:nil |
9/7 Article from National Geographic Oct. 2004 discussing the
causes and likely aftermath of a devastating hurricane in NOLA
http://tinyurl.com/dwmdm |
| 2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39540 Activity:nil |
9/7 ~90% of the Democrats think the religious right provides a
negative influence on American culture, while ~90% of the
Republicans think it provides a positive influence:
http://pollingpoint.com/results_071305.html
\_ What about independents?
\_ In related news, 90% of cats think birds are a tasty treat, while
90% of birds hate cats.
\_ Oddly, the 10% dissenting birds are hawks. |
| 2005/9/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39538 Activity:nil |
9/6 At the White House news conference earlier today GWB finanlly explained
why the hurricane relief efford was so slow: "The Katrina was just a
part of the new 'Survivor' series. No, no this wasn't a disaster. These
were Challenges which were just part of the show. I can forgive those
critics who said that the government should have helped sooner because
they didn't know that New Orleans was just one of the Challenges.
If we called for help, that would be breaking the rules and everyone
still remaining in New Orleans would've been disqualified from the
game." |
| 2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39536 Activity:nil |
9/6 FEMA Chief waited until after storm hit before asking his employees
to New Orleans, and gave them two days to arrive:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_disaster_response
\_ dude, give him some slack. He knows more about horse racing
than diseaster relief. Consider his non-existance background,
I would say he is pretty good for a beginner.
\_ It's not like people are dying or anything.
\_ i was trying to be sarcastic
\_ So was I, but I guess I didn't succeed
\_ um, generally FEMA helps out w/ reconstruction AND the aid
requested by gov of LA was to help w/ clearing roads and
building temp house, &c. [ There are plenty of other reasons
to think that FEMA messed up ] |
| 2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39535 Activity:nil |
9/6 Firefighter volunteers were used as FEMA PR specialists:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_09_04.php#006430
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197
"As specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a
team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for
Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush
as he tours devastated areas."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050903/ids_photos_india_wl/ra2838142191.jpg
\_ that's nice. keep trolling.
\_ You don't know what trolling means do you?
\_ "This could look bad for OCP. Assemble our best spin team."
\_ Impeach GWB now. -mrauser
\_ The foxes are currently guarding the henhouse. Actually,
it's more like the foxes are guarding the foxhouse. |
| 2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39533 Activity:nil |
9/6 If you had any doubt that the Washington Times is a right-wing
media outlet:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm (Editor in Chief)
\_ "The vultures of the venomous left" -- I love it! I want a t-shirt
proclaiming me a vulture of the venomous left! |
| 2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39532 Activity:nil |
9/6 When Wal-Mart sent three trailer trucks loaded with water,
FEMA officials turned them away, he said. Agency workers
prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of
diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the parish's emergency
communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and
post armed guards to protect it from FEMA, Mr. Broussard said.
\_ urlP
\_ #t
\_ Go to http://nyt.com and do a search. http://www.csua.org seems to have
been taken over by porn links. Dunno why.
\_ http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/06/D8CERTB80.html |
| 11/23 |
| 2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39520 Activity:nil |
9/6 Relief efforts: Callous, racist, and inept.
http://www.dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=27528&postcount=30
http://www.dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=27529&postcount=31
\_ "sheroes" is one of the stupidest words I've ever heard. -tom
\_ Sexist!
\_ this sounds fabricated. |
| 2005/9/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39517 Activity:nil |
9/6 "At one point, there were a load of girls on the roof of the hotel
saying 'Can you help us?' and the policemen said 'Show us what you've
got' and made signs for them to lift their T-shirts. When the girls
refused, they said 'Fine' and motored off down the road in their boat."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4217022.stm
\_ Oh no! The horror! Men being scum! Cops acting corrupt!
We must outlaw this with an amendment!
\_ Please state for the record which party most recently tried
to amend the constitution for purely political reasons.
\_ I'm sure those cops, and their unions, were 100% GOP.
As if that had anything to do with the above.
\_ Sounds good to me. Where's the petition? -non-scum man
\_ If you victims are dead, how will you know who to
press charges against? |
| 2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39513 Activity:nil |
9/6 http://csua.org/u/d9k (Wash Post) "Is the problem the Bush administration's ideological fervor for small government? Does the White House really believe that primary responsibility should fall on volunteers, church groups and individuals? Or is it just stunning incompetence and lack of foresight?" \-OWNERSHIP SOCIETY \_ last time I checked, number of people on Federal payroll is actually *INCREASED*. Further, we ran from huge surplus to huge deficit. hmm... I don't know. Ideology aside, from the number of it, Bush is more of a big government type than Clinton! \- i believe fed govt increase/decr is better predicted by whether cong and white house are same party than whether president is R or D. structure trumps ideoology. --psb \_ agree. my problem is that Republican kept bitching about how democrats are pro-big-government type, nothing more. \_ GWB to US: You've been pwn3d! |
| 2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39510 Activity:nil |
9/5 "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay
in Texas. Everybody is so overhwlemed by the hospitality. And so many
of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway
so this (chuckle)--this is working very well for them."
-Barbara Bush
\_ Now we see where W learned his endearing "chuckle at inappropriate
moments" technique.
\_ FYI http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080 |
| 2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39503 Activity:moderate |
9/3 Talking POINTS on Fox, towards the end of the talk on "The lesson
to be learned from Hurricane Katrina" says that if you want something
done, you do it yourself. You can't rely on the government for
anything, you must rely on yourself. Conservatism #1! Republican #1!!!
\_ Weird, I thought law and order was the one thing conservatives
think government is good for.
\_ Weird, I thought the one thing conservatives and libertarians
thought was a valid function of government was law and order.
\_ Conservatives believe in, first and foremost, *self-reliance*,
the "take matters with your own hands" attitude.
\_ oh, man, things were so much better when the states all
printed their own money.
\_ So you're saying that each state and local government
should invest billions of dollars in their own military
and civil infrastructure to defend themselves and deal
with catastrophic terrorist acts or natural disasters?
That sure makes a lot of sense economically. Why create
a single resource that can be shared amongst the entire
nation when you can just reinvent the wheel at the state
and local levels? Because we all need to be "self-reliant"
\_ I'm not saying that. It's what many Republicans believe.
\_ really? got a URL for any republican saying that
each state and local government should spend billions
of state/local dollars for their own military and
civil infrastructure to defend themselves and deal
with catastrophic terrorist acts and natural
disasters? oh. no. you don't. you just made that
up. welcome to the motd.
\_ Republicans are defending the federal government
and the president while blaming state and local
authorities for the NOLA fiasco. If you're
saying that it means that either (A) the state
did not utilize all the resources it had in
an effective manner or (B) the state simply
did not have the resources to handle the
disaster in the first place. But I think it's
clear from the scale of the disaster that the
only way to deal with this disaster is to have
an emergency response infrastructure that is well
beyond the scale and budget of any state like
LA.
\_ The world is not that black and white. Local and
state authorities have responsibilities that they
shirked. They didn't even approach a minimal
\_ You don't have any evidence of this other than
the rantings of right wing blogs. Do you still
believe the governor didn't declare a state of
emergency?
\_ How many school buses were left sitting
unused? What exactly was the evacuation
plan and did anyone even try to follow it?
I don't read *any* blogs, thanks for trying.
\_ So your evacuation plan would have been
to ferry 100,000 on these school buses
to be driven by all these school bus
drivers who would rather take care of
their own family and problems than to
drive a bunch of strangers around on
an already overcrowded I-10?
\_ nice way to ignore the rest. but yes
if you had read the plan you'd know
that the school buses they left to rot
were *part* of the plan to evac those
who couldn't get out on their own.
look, i'm sorry if the facts are
getting in the way of your agenda but
the fact remains that the locals have
responsibilities and failed. here,
let me save you the trouble of going
on, "gwb is evil, HALIBURTON!, oil,
Iraq, cheney is evil, scalia is evil,
dick morris is evil, HALIBURTON!, oil,
save the spotted owl, christians are
evil!". did i miss anything?
\_ I've never said anything in the
last 5 lines you wrote there but
nice of you to make assumptions
like that. I do think GWB is
pretty inept. What was the *full*
plan? I think the mayor calling
for a mandatory evacuation and
the governer requesting a state
of emergency is part of the plan.
I think the federal government
not acting on the request is
pretty criminal. If a state
governer requests resources for
evacuation and you don't act on
it that places the blame on
the federal government, not
state and local.
level of reasonable response or use the resources
they had in place prior to the event to prevent
a lot of the hardship we've seen in the last week.
Yes, of course the federal response could have
been better as the President already stated. The
federal response was slow and somewhat inept. The
state/local response borders on criminal. With
authority comes responsibility, something the
locals didn't understand and the people suffered
for it. It's all fun n games being Governor or
Mayor until people start drowning, starving, and
dying of dehydration. Then you just blame the
feds and start your re-election campaign early.
\_ How is the state and local response
"criminal"? The state and local govt have
limited resources. The federal govt has
much greater resources. If you exhaust your
state and local resources to capacity then
you've done everything you can. But if you're
a federal government with billions of dollars
at its disposal and you've done jack shit
at your disposal and you've done jack shit
then that's criminal
\_ see above.
\_ I thought that was more of a Libertarian plank....
\_ I think their definition of "self-reliance" meant something
like "give tax break to big business" and "relax
pollution standard so mercury is on everyone's dinner
plate."
like "give tax break to big business" and "relax pollution
standard so mercury is on everyone's dinner plate." |
| 2005/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39501 Activity:low |
9/3 Bush Nominates Roberts for Chief Justice
Hey man, didn't I say this was coming ...
"The main point is that Roberts could be the next Rehnquist, and this
could last for decades."
\- i did suggest on the wall 1. bush will likely nominate somebody
"you have never heard of" [unless you are a Groupie of
somebody "you have never heard of" [unless you are an Groupie of
the Federal Judiciary] 2. ROBERTS was being set up to be Chief
[over Scalia] although when the possibility existed to ask OCONNOR
to stay on as acting CJ and then elevate ROBERTS, i thought he
might go with that plan [I believe no extra hearing needed to
make OCONNOR acting CJ, and that would have been a breeze]. THOMAS'
tribute comments are leem: "I am sad and I miss him. He was good.
Pray." [ok maybe there was more to it?]
make OCONNOR acting CJ, and that would have been a breeze]. It's
interesting to note how leem THOMAS tribute is: "I was sad and I
miss him. He was good. Pray." [ok maybe there was more to it?]
See: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/04/rehnquist.reaction/index.html
I guess this gives STEVENS license to make his appointment a
"life setence" too. Yeah. --psb |
| 2005/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39499 Activity:nil |
9/6 Why does BBC hate the Republicans?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4214516.stm |
| 2005/9/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39495 Activity:nil |
9/4 Ring them bells
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/09/ring-them-bells.html |
| 2005/9/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39493 Activity:nil |
9/4 The Schiavo response vs. the Katrina response:
http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/09/three_days.shtml |
| 2005/9/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39492 Activity:nil |
9/4 New Orleans PD shoots dead six Army contractors walking across
bridge with guns
- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1477299/posts
Come read the thread before it was removed by http://freerepublic.com staff:
- http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~jctwu/posts.htm
Read new freshened thread which replaced it:
- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1477350/posts
\_ Must have been part of the "insurgency":
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php
\_ I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Freepers make my head hurt.
\_ New news: "Army Corps of Engineers says its contractors were not
killed by police, but gunmen who fired at them were killed."
Also, that thread that got removed got relisted. Weird. -op
\_ Awesome, they relisted racist trash!
\_ CBC news says something nearly totally different:
http://csua.org/u/d8t
\_ Yes, just like what it says under "New news: ...". |
| 2005/9/4-7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39490 Activity:moderate |
9/4 So are we putting that sobbing woman in charge of LA behind bars for
endangering thousands of lives with her incompetence or what?
It's ok to be outraged at a Democrat, I won't hold it against you.
-- ilyas
\_ Sure, we should. And the incompetent party hack in charge of
FEMA who fucked up the response, and the fucking moron running
the executive branch of our government who totally completely
duffed the response to this massive clusterfuck, and the idiots
who stripped FEMA budgets to pay for imagined terrorism threats
that never materialized, in the process making it impossible to
respond to a massive, predicted disaster to the national
economy (not to mention all those random floating corpses), and
wait, who sent the LA national guard where? At least you're
fair about FEMA/etc. down below. -John
\_ Gee, thanks John, that means so much to me. -- ilyas
\_ If, by some chance, you managed to be less of a
sanctimonious fuckwit from time to time, you might be a bit
more credible, not that you care. If you post bullshit
like the above, expect to have it panned. -John
\_ Pathetic. Any criticism of !republicans can expect this
kind of reception these days. Well, I would be interested
how many of you will change your tune as more information
becomes available. It's patently obvious to me LA/NO
government FAILED. NO mayor, unlike all of you, is already
seeing the writing on the wall, and talking about
'taking responsibility that he has to take.' I am sure
there will be a lot of rolling heads after this is over.
Anyways, I think I am done with the motd. It's finally
turned into wall. -- ilyas
\_ I criticize what I think are unreasonable statements
from any political spectrum. Don't imply nonsense; I
never hinted that your attack on the LA governor was
wrong, but rather incomplete, she's not the only one
by far who should be shot. Sorry about the tantrum,
it was written after the anonymous cowardly troll
below. -John
\_ Fuck you, ilyas. I criticize stupid shit. You posted
KING STUPID SHIT. I criticize it. I don't give a
flying rat turd if it's liberal or conservative or
whatever else not-worthy-of-cal-grad undifferentiated
third-rate label you put on it. If you are going to be
dense about it and imply nonsense, go ahead; I never
even hinted that [whatever whiny {conservative/liberal}
agenda-du-jour] you or any of the other random motd
squeaky wheels were pounding on, including criticising
LA govt., was wrong, but rather that a whole shitload
of others, including some apparent darlings of yours,
should also be put into public stocks and have rotten\
tomatoes thrown at them. Apparently you are beyond
actually _reading_ what people write before throwing
a major tantrum, though. F0AD. -John
\_ That whole exchange was kind of creepy. I mean,
seriosuly "Are you scared" and "I'll get you"?
seriously "Are you scared" and "I'll get you"?
That's just damned weird.
\_ John, were you scared?
\_ Think about that question for a moment. -John
\_ Just ten years of rational finally managed to drive
Ilyas off the motd? Yipeee!!!
\_ It's turned into wall thanks to people like you.
THANK YOU ILYAS! Please sing folk song with me for
nalstalgie. gori, gori, lyubov' tsyganki, Lyubov'
krasavitsy smuglyanki, gorit nad nami sila vlastnaya,
gorit odna lyubov' prekrastnaya ...
\_ What you talkin' about ilyas? You got a link anywhere?
\_I curious too.
\_ Well, her response is something that will be analyzed in depth
soon. From the preliminary information I have, I can see she
was not nearly decisive enough, despite a few days' warning.
As for the 'sobbing woman' comment, have you seen some of her
press conference footage? She had a chance to pull a Giuliani,
and be a leader. FEMA and homeland security morons failed
rather laughably also. -- ilyas
\_ This is just a Republican disinformation campaign. -ausman
\_ This is a Republican disinformation campaign. -ausman
http://csua.org/u/d92
\_ You really are getting desperate, aren't you.
\_ desperate would be doing yermom. I know. I did.
\_ Are you talking about this [ specifically the parts where it talks
about the gov of LA]?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html
\_ I am talking about my impression of the LA clusterfuck which
resulted in no small part from the governor's failure to act
early and decisively. Obviously, I don't have all of the
details yet, although I am educating myself on the situation.
This is a 'fun' read:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor
-- ilyas
\_ Neat, ilyas is already repeating Rove talking points!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05bush.html?pagewanted=print
\_ Yeah, because I am incapable of generating an original
thought, and just mimic my Dark Neocon Masters. You've
gotten dumber with age, Eli. I don't remember you being
so idiotic when you were hanging around hoserchat. -- ilyas
\_ You may be interested in this:
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf
(Dated 28 Aug 2005)
\_ I blame her for not being related to the President and for not being
in charge of a swing state during an election year. The same FEMA
that's getting it's ass handed to it by everyone for reacting so
slowly is came to the overwhelming rescue of Florida after each
of the four hurricanes that hit in 2004, even declaring counties
not hit as disaster zones. Damn that Woman! Damn her Relations!
\_ John, I challenge you to a gun duel. Are you scared? -- ilyas
\_ Fuck you, you craven little shit. I will never point a gun
at anyone in anything but self-defence. You, on the other
hand, have gone totally off the deep end. Nor will I ever
go looking for a fight on purpose unlike certain other
psychopaths. I will, however, gleefully pound the living
shit out of your scrawny little ass if you ever so much as
go "boo" at me in person. Now get a life. -John
\_ [Retracted] -John
\_ Hi John, that wasn't me. You can check your favorite motd
logger. Feel free to apologize at any time. Other than
this reply, nothing below the reply to Eli is authored by
me. And now perhaps it's clear why I am done with the
motd. -- ilyas
\_ I apologize and take it back, I've been trolled. -John
\_ I challenge you to any kind of fight.
You are the craven. I will get you. -- ilyas
\_ Come get some. Now would you mind explaining, as far
as your apparently random little mind will allow,
what brought this on? I assume it's because you seem
to believe I posted the bit 4 levels up, for some
reason, and that this set off some equally random
reaction? How about you challenge me to a "hey, I had
better get professional help" fight. "Gun duel"? Give
me a break. Do you challenge random people you've not
met to gun duels often? Tell you what, if we ever meet,
you can start all the fights you want, deal? -John
\_ Come get some. You're right, I'm craven because I
don't go seek out random scrawny geeks I've never met
who challenge me to GUN DUEL on the soda motd. Do you
challenge people to GUN DUEL often, Ilya? -John
\_ I'll lend you two taser guns. I'll try to get the media
to film the world's first TASER DUEL. It's novel, it's
safe, and it's cool. How about it?
\_ He should be. The fucking liberal bailed out of the Swiss
army and has never even laid his hands on a girly .22 cal.
You on the other hand represents the finest of the Red Neck
libertarians who love to collect fully auto M16s and AK47s.
\_ I am willing to negotiate whether long guns or pistols
or bow. -- ilyas
\_ [STUPIDITY CENSOR WAS HERE]
\_ Ilya, I'm willing to lend you my Star Trek phaser I
bought at the convention. It's a collector's item.
I'll also lend John my M-18 Taser gun.
\_ [STUPID POLICE WAS HERE MK. II] |
| 2005/9/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Abortion] UID:39472 Activity:moderate |
9/3 "New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras
free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the
sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of
all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in
His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're
going to start over again." - Rev Bill Shanks (American Fam. Assoc.)
\_ Damn those pagans! Now they pay for it!
\_ Operation Blame The Fags kicks into high gear:
http://driftglass.blogspot.com
\_ Gays are being denied FEMA aid. Santa Monica has sent
aid earmarked for Gays. Go to http://gay.org to donate. -tyms
\_ This is one of the best trolls I've ever seen. You should see
the captions and the pictures, it's hilarious. This is something
liberals write for sarcasm, and conservatives actually agree on.
\_ There are only 2 types of people, right?
\_ There's two kinds of people in this world, my friend:
\_ There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend:
those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
\_ There are infinite type, but only 2 extreme types actively
shape our lives.
\_ Yes, idiots like yourself and everyone else.
\_ There are two types of people. Those who separate people
into two different types and those who don't. --jon
\_ There are 10 types of people. Those who understand
binary and those who don't.
\_ There are 10 types of people. Those who can count
in binary and those who can't.
\_ "God attacked America and the prayers of the oppressed were
answered, The wrath of the All-powerful fell upon the nation of
oppressors. Their dead are in the thousands and their losses
are in the billions," said the statement from the group led by
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has a $25 million U.S. bounty on this head
"Only recently America killed and starved whoever it wanted, but
today it is appealing for oil and food," it added. |
| 2005/9/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39471 Activity:nil |
9/3 "(Al Qaeda leader Osama) bin Laden, nice and dry in his hideaway,
must be killing himself laughing [at the Bush Katrina disaster]."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_reaction_dc
\_ Why would you make light of the suffering of others?
\_ Because its not as much fun when it happens to you. :(
-mrauser |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39464 Activity:nil |
9/2 Christ. It just gets worse and worse.
http://www.nola.com/weblogs/nola/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_nolaview/archives/2005_09.html#076355 |
| 2005/9/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39463 Activity:moderate |
9/2 So everyone is complaining that the Federal response to
this Katrina business is too slow.
1. Why should there be a federal response at all?
2. Shouldn't it be the responsiblity of the state to deal
with this sort of thing?
3. Why blame the feds for acting slowly when the states
didn't ask for help for ~ 2 days? [ I could be wrong
on the timeframe here ]
\_ 33% Federal income tax, that's fucking why. Screw all the "the
gub'mint should this, and the Feds should that", here's a service
that people paid for and they ain't getting it. Someone should
call the BBB. -John
2. Shouldn't it be the responsiblity of the state to deal
with this sort of thing?
3. Why blame the feds for acting slowly when the states
didn't ask for help for ~ 2 days? [ I could be wrong
on the timeframe here
\_ Hurray for narrow ideologies that oversimplify issues. I think
the problem with the federal response is that this catastrophe
was predicted up to four years ago, yet the budget for building
precautions to avert it has been consistently cut by this
administration. Then it's taken this long to bring to bear the
official federal disaster relief agency, which should nominally
be in charge since its supposed replacement has not yet been put
in place. If this is the response time for a predicted disaster
with that many people who did not or could not evacuate, what's
going to happen the next time an unpredicted disaster strikes?
\_ So, you don't think FDR should of step in to revive the economy
back in the 1930's, right? Should we abolished EPA and SEC?
\_ I think FDR over stepped the bounds of his authority
in many cases (the USSC thought so as well). I'm not
100% convinced that the EPA falls w/in the commerce
pwr of Art 1 Sec 8, but its probably close. The SEC
clearly falls under the commerce pwr, so congress
has ever right to establish it.
has every right to establish it.
My argument is about separation of pwrs, the nature
of our gov is that the states are independent from
the fed gov and are responsible for administration
of internal affiars. This is an internal affair,
let the state deal w/ it UNLESS they ask for help
from the feds. IF they ask for help from the feds
and the feds mess it up, then its probably okay to
evaluate the federal response. But evaluating the
federal response prior to any state request is not
valid. [ If I got the timeframe wrong, sorry to be
a bother ]
\_ hmm... state right again. I thought those who
advocate "seperate but equal" use "state right" as
main arguement. *FURTHER* How about the Flood of
Mississippi in 1927, when bankers in New Orleans
decided to break the leeves to save New Orleans.
But the result was complete devistation to the country
side... State Supreme Court was completely aligned
with those white plantation owners / bankers, all
law suit was ruled in favor of those who were white.
You *PREFER* that kind of state right? --non white
\_ The states are subordinate to the constitution
and separate but equal is incompatible w/ the
the 14th amd.
If the local gov/populace undertakes a measures
that is not in the best interest of the local
populace, the sol'n isn't to call in the feds.
The sol'n is to deal w/ it local. Or move.
Personally, I don't trust any gov. - local or
fed - to act in the best interests of the ppl.
But I think that the feds have even less interest
in acting responsibly than the locals, therefore
I am opposed to widespread fed intervention.
-also non-white
\_ You _are_ wrong on the timeframe. Blanco asked for financial
assistance for facilitating evacuations on the 26th, when it
became apparent that the storm (then a Cat IV, soon to be Cat V)
was heading their way. Why is a federal response needed? Because
preventing a meltdown of an entire region of our country is an
integral part of protecting your precious markets. This is a
social, economic, and humanitarian crisis on our sovreign territory.
\_ As I understand it, assistance for evacuation for the
entire region was given by the fed gov (note more than
just NO was affected). The problem w/ NO is that the
local resources were not mobilized b/c of local gov
inaction and local resident refusal. The fed gov
should not be blamed for the actions of the local
populace.
My questions have nothing to do w/ mkts, &c. They
are about separation of pwrs. Shouldn't the states
be responsible for themselves to a certain extent?
Why should the fed gov be involved in everything
immediately?
Is it always true that a federal response will be
superior to a local response (cf '89 quake)?
[ Perhaps my views re this event are colored b/c I
come from a part of the world where thousands
of ppl die in floods every year and no one ever
notices ]
\_ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard
\_ http://tinyurl.com/deota (news.yahoo.com)
This was a failure of planning. It's STILL failing. There
are people waiting and wanting to help. There is a breakdown
here that is resulting in people dying of dehydration and
illness on the streets of american cities. When the federal
government has depleted the available national guard for the
states involved, it is THEIR responsibility to fill the gaps.
\_ A few questions:
1. Is the argument: the feds sent the NG from LA to
Iraq so that's why they weren't in NO to help w/
this mess?
\_ This is one portion of the argument that puts the onus
of insufficient resources for the state on the feds.
2. If this is the argument, is the assertion also
that so many NG are in Iraq that all of the NG
offered by the other states wouldn't have been
enough to deal w/ the situtaion?
\_ I don't know, and can't speak to it. but you apparently
didn't read the article. the request _was_ made for
more NG support and it languished in Washington (who
would, I suppose, have to approve any interstate troop
transfers).
\_ I got the impression that the delay was b/c LA
wanted to use the NG troops for police purposes
and hadn't put into place provisions for such
use in their agreements. I saw the delay as
shortsightedness on LA's part not as a failing
of the feds. [ I could be wrong ]
3. Assuming that the feds hadn't deployed the NG
to Iraq, is the assertion that there were enough
NG in NO to deal with the situtation in a better
manner?
4. If so, where is the proof that the NG in NO wouldn't
have been overwhelmed just like the NO cops were?
The whole city was flooded and most of the roads
were out. Unless you are claiming that the NG in NO
had a huge fleet of choppers and hovercraft, what
difference could it possibly have made - many of
the LA NG probably would have ended up dead as well.
\_ Wow. Logical leap. I don't know what their plan would
be but I would assume it would not include congregating
their forces in the center of Katrina's path and letting
it wipe them off the map. Are you claiming that the LA
NG is a backwoods militia with a couple jeeps and some
armored bicycles? I would think they would have large
vehicles and cargo movers that could be used as personnel
transports to help facillitate evacuations and high-water
vehicles, helicopters and boats to help in search and
rescue, and portable generators to keep hospitals
working. Since these things didn't show up, I would
assume that they didn't have enough people and equipment
here.
\_ NO was prepared for a cat 3 or so hurricane, not
one this big. It was known that the best way to
survive was to evacuate, but the local gov didn't
handle that properly. If the NG had been in NO,
where is the proof that they could have handled
the situation better than the cops if the whole
place knew they couldn't have handled a situation
like this?
5. Assume that the NG hadn't been deployed to Iraq,
some (perhaps many) of the NG in LA would have
been outside of NO. What is the basis for a claim
that they could have rendered assistance to NO
in a better manner than external NG troops?
\_ How big do you think LA is? The roads have been
passable enough for busses leaving. I'm sure they could
get their armored bicycles through in less than 5 FUCKING
DAYS.
\_ This makes no difference. If the external
troops could have deployed as quickly as
the LA troops, then the fact that the LA
troops were not present does not change
anything.
While there may have been a failure of planning,
to me it seems to be a failure at a state level
not at a fed level. The fed response seems to be
sufficient.
\_ The president doesn't agree with you
\_ So what? I don't agree w/ the pres on many
things.
\_ Hello jblack! Haven't seen you for a while. I miss you too.
Did you have a blast at the golf course? Did you break 80?
\_ Is this the same idiot who said he wouldn't donate money
to natural disaster relief funds because we should
instead be donating money to the "root of the problem"?
\_ No. I donated money to this (and many other) relief
efforts. I'm just not clear on why this is/should be
a federal problem instead of a state problem (the
states are free to ask for federal help, but until
they do can/why should the feds get involved?)
\_ Thank you for speaking out. Like you I'm a minority and I'm
fed up with you socialists. I'm a believer in family
values, moral values, free markets, small government, self-
reliance, and fiscal rectitude. The New Orleans are like the
grasshoppers who squander food and party everyday until
winter comes. It's just a matter of time before they start
begging for food. There's a saying that God helps those who
help themselves. I'm sick and tired of having to pay
for illegal immigrants and lazy people so that they can get
a free education and free lunch. If the Orleans had any family
values or work ethics they would work hard and support
themselves. Instead they leech off from hard honest working
people. The fact that they loot and rape tells you the kind
of people they are. They're worse than the grasshoppers and
they have no sympathy from me.
\_ This just has to be a troll.
\- i'm sure this is a troll but to find a point in it
all ... i think there are tiers of govt involvement
there are tiers of government. it's quite under-
stanable the federal govt be the "backup" when the
state/local govt collapses. it's not like states should
only rely on "private point to point agreements"
with other public or private units ... again, analogosly
when orange county collapsed, the CA state steped in
and this is case the "buck" reasonably stopped with
the state. moving on from "tier of govt" to "tiers
of involvement/effort", i think even many non-fruitcake
libertarian and small-govt people would think it is
consistent with the mission of a "minimal state"
to provide order. moving on from there to the
provision of emergency clean water, doesnt seem
crazy talk. there is a decent prima facie economic
case to think the govt should be responsible for
public goods like levy's ... surely even more so
public goods like levees ... surely even more so
than the classic case of lighthouses, which are a
sop to the shipping industry by and large [yes, i
am aware of some cliams of the possibility of private
lighthouses]. this level of involvement, does not
seem at odds with federal involvement in the new
bay bridge, or ANWAR, or Bob's Expensive Alaskan
Bridge or the Army Corps of Engineers dredging
channels for oil tankers or the Fed govt researching
AIDS or cancer. but finally, if we are talking should the
govt be involved in "making people whole", i do agree
this seems problematic. i personally have not heard a
good rational [as opposed to political or senitmental]
case for why there should have been a special compensation
fund for 9/11 victims. i think vastly increasing the
death benefits for military KIA or firefighters and such
KIA at home should be given relatively more. --psb
\_ Orange County is paying the bonds off with their
own money. The State didn't bail them out.
\- the state did step in in the short term.
if you want to send LA a bill for the
water delivered later, i guess you can do
so. should the state send a bill to people
for firefighting services? or just get out
\_ they do. it's called "taxes".
of the firefighting business? i think there
is a difference between firefighting and
rescuing people from mt mckinley. and
remember at least some of the hypociritical
conservatives [not the libertarians in this
case] wnat the FED GOVT to be involved in
protecting "traditional marriages" from
assmaster and deviant marriages. maybe
scalia will claim the state will make it
iillegal for people to build PRIVATE LEVEES
or drink non-govt suppplied water ... oh wait
in some countries where water provision has been
made private they *have* passed laws making it
illegal to collect your own water.
(BTW, I am not familiar with the details of
how the orange county matter was settled
but i do believe there was some assistance
in buying htem time to restructure [that's
part of the point of bankrupty gradations]
and there may have been some "repuational
assistance" to help them lower their
interest rates when they went back into
the borrowing pool).
\_ Hey Partha, I think you should work on making your
writing look a little less like verbal vomit.
-- ilyas (friendly neighborhood total dumbass)
\- verbal vomit >> mental vomit
i think a point of intersection of
my moral and your political philosophy
is the state should not compel you to
vomit or read. however you may wish to
read Rochin v. California and vomit.
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/333
--psb
\_ I think the state should make an exception
in your case, since you are a pol pot
in training. You know, the counterfactual
golden rule -- do onto others as they
would have done onto you if they only
could. -- ilyas
\- well i think i'd do a lot of good
early in my tenure as pol pot ...
i acknowledge things might get
carried away after a while. i mean
we can all agree on tunring the
out of hand after a while. i mean
we can all agree on tunring The
Donald into Trump Carpaccio, right?
\_ You give yourself too much credit.
-- psb for fertilizer 2008
\_ We used to have private fire companies whose
services were paid for by the insurance companies.
I think all fire fighting is public in the US now.
I wonder if it's now illegal to operate a private
fire company or merely just uneconomical.
\_ I know someone who works for one, but he only
does forest fires, and he said his unit is the
only one he knows of that's private. He likes it.
\- well there were medival "law merchants" too.
doesnt mean today the govt should get out of
the business of business law. i supposed
gated communities can choose to have their
own fire fighters and that may get into
messy situations like private firefighting
companies "poaching" FFs trained on the public
dime. with an "arragement" like that it may
be "economical" ... OWNERSHIP SOCIETY.
i shall now watch CHEF DU FER instead of the motd.
\_ Chef du fer? I'll be playing chemin de fer
tomorrow. BTW, much of the business of the
legal system is now handled by private
arbitrators.
\- yes and lots of people put out their own
kitchen fires. that's why i wrote
"get out of business law" not 'have a
monopoly on dispute resolution".
they do have a monopoly on criminal
prosecution. |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39459 Activity:nil |
9/2 The big disconnect on New Orleans --
The official version; then there's the in-the-trenches version
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html
\_ When the feds are being this fucktarded and stupid, even the MSM
can see it.
\_ FEMA head wants to be the next Iraqi Information Minister. |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39458 Activity:nil |
9/2 Bush in Biloxi - real life becomes SNL skit:
http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/02/vo.bush.biloxi.families.cnn
\_ Sorry, but can you tell me how is it that Bush hugging
hurricane victims, holding hands with relief workers,
and giving out words of comfort while the victims thank
him... how that's suppose to make Bush look bad? Hello?
Looks like 2008 will belong to Jeb Bush. Sad day for the
victims, sad realization for all of us.
\_ I guess you didn't see the horrible irony of his clue-free
conversation with the two black women, but oh well.
\_ That is how you, 48% of the people think. 52% will look
at the images and say "Our great chief is so brave to
show up in Louisiana! And he gives hugs and support
to those in trouble. I'm so proud I voted for him!!!"
\_ I dunno, I hear people are already calling New Orleans
"Lake George."
\_ Only in the People's DemoKratic Republic of
Berserkeley. |
| 2005/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39452 Activity:nil |
9/1 They should just take New Orleans off the U.S. map and rename it
to Gulf of George Bush, in honor of our great president George Bush.
\_ Pho Toop? |
| 2005/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39449 Activity:nil |
9/2 Ha-ha
http://drudgereport.com had a photo of Dubya talking with the two African
American women. Then I submitted aspo's transcript and the motd link
to the CNN video. 15 minutes later and the photo's no longer there. |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:39447 Activity:low |
9/2 I guess America let its national geographic subscription lapse
this is from last year
http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5 - danh
\_ Yeah, but New Orleans is full of poor black people. Who gives a
fuck about them?
\_ Plus all of the evil-doers in NO. After years and years of
eating shrimp, they get their just desserts! God hates
crustatean eaters!
\_ http://www.godhatesfigs.com
\_ That's "Freedom Shrimp" to you.
\_ Nor Scientific American from 4 years ago: http://csua.org/u/d8l |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39446 Activity:nil |
9/2 The GOP is on the case to save America and New Orleans - the solutiom?
Another tax cut!
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_08_28.php#006382
\_ We're going to have daily 4 hour meetings until we figure out why
morale and productivity are so low! |
| 2005/9/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:39443 Activity:nil |
9/2 fallout on yahoo from language of photo captions:
http://news.yahoo.com/page/photostatement
(apologize if a repost) - rory
\_ what did i do? here go read the comments of the
guy who took the photo
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17204#26
search for "Jeasus" - danh
\_ Censoring history to appease the politically correct. Yeah, that's
progress.
\_ And a big thanks goes to danh for doing his part to kick
AFP off yahoo. We have too much information anyway.
\_ what did i do? here go read the comments of the
guy who took the photo
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17204#26
search for "Jeasus" - danh
\_ "white people find things: http://redirx.com/?3h1a
black people loot: http://redirx.com/?3h1f - danh"
Now, do you really believe there was racism involved
in the captions?
\_ I think it is quite likely that the photographer
would have captioned it differently if he were
shooting black people, yes. -tom
\_ Instead of guessing, why not read the captioner's
comment?
\_ I did. -tom
\_ Then perhaps you'd like to explain why (after
reading it) you've completely ignored it?
\_ what is the guy gonna say? "I have an
ingrained fear of black people, and I
don't want to portray white people in
a negative light"? Look, I don't think
he's Jesse Helms or anything like that,
but this is a pretty clear example of
how deeply ingrained racial stereotypes
are in our society. -tom
\_ Yeah, they're so ingrained tom
sees them where they don't even
exist. -jrleek
\_ When has tom ever allowed fact to sway his opinion?
Looks like my assessment was correct: the white
people in the picture found stuff floating near a
store. Tom you are such an idiot.
\_ you think maybe i've changed my mind and I am posting
the comments of the original photographer? - danh
\_ Right. And your original post and the many other by
like-minded people is what got AFP to withdraw their
photos. I'm glad that you've changed your mind now,
but didn't you do your part in getting AFP to leave?
\_ it looks like the guy was stressed out... i dunno
if he would have written something different if it
were a bunch of black people. hard to say. i also
really hate new orleans. - danh |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39438 Activity:low |
9/1 Guess why the FEMA reaction is a mess?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.fema.brown/index.html
\_ Getting out of a city costs money. Most of the people who stayed
are either poor and can't afford to get out of the city or were
unable to leave on short notice. If a government evacuates a city
they need to fund the evacuation and find people shelter. This
reads like someone blaming to poor for , well, being poor.
\_ http://csua.org/u/d8d [nyt]
"City officials said they provided free transportation from
pick-up points publicized on television, radio and by people
shouting through megaphones on the streets. In addition to the
Superdome, officials opened schools and the convention center
as shelters."
\_ "Shelters" that had no food, water, working sanitation...
This was and is FUCKED.
\_ Six rapes and three murders a night IN THE SHELTER.
\- Blob Dylan: Gimme Shelter
\_ Kinda makes you wonder how many murders & rapes a night
in NO back when it wasn't submerged.
\_ New Orleans had the highest murder rate last year. |
| 2005/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39434 Activity:nil |
9/1 Germany on Katrina:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372425,00.html
\_ America on Katrina:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/09/lead-religious-right-group-promotes.html
\_ I find this article to be just as tasteless as what it's
complaining about.
"It's not the American people's fault that the storm hit
and they couldn't have stopped it. The Germans, on the
other hand, could have done a lot to prevent World War
II. And yet, care packages still rained down from US
troops. Trittin's know-it-all stance is therefore not
only tasteless, it is also historically blind." |
| 2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39430 Activity:low |
9/1 Jesus. This is happening in America. Where are the troops? Where is
the federal government? Why the fuck is Dubya blathering about gas
prices? What the fucking fuck?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_52
\_ Where were the federal troops to stop looting and anarchy in nyc
on 9/11? Answer: they didn't FUCKING need them, because new york's
local emergency services are outstanding and did their job, and the
people of new york reacted to the crisis by *stopping* crime on
their own rathar than resorting to barbarism. This is not about
the federal government, it's about some states having their shit
together(read:blue states), and some being third world countries
living on the dole from blue state tax dollars.
\_ Comparing the situation in New Orleans to any other disaster in
recent memory, including the tsunami and 9/11, is fruitless.
There are no analogies to be be made. Please stop.
\_ Do you not remember the immediatly after 9/11 the National Guard
and army showed en masse and were being extremely active in
patroling and keeping chaos down? You needed proof that
you lived below 14th street to go anywhere near that section
of the city. The reason New Orleans has descended into chaos
is the disaster management wasn't there. No management, no
food, no water, people feel they are elft out to die there.
It's been days now. People are going crazy.
\_ Where are the troops? State governers control the National Guard.
There's a law against active-duty federal military performing
domestic law enforcement. Why the concern over gas prices? The
reality is that, as awful as the human toll of Katrina may be, the
greater and more important threat to the nation is damage to the oil
infrastructure. Apart from the oil, LA, AL, and MS are relatively
unimportant states.
\- "Fuck the Delta Blacks, they dont vote for us anyway." -K.ROVE
\_ The LA National Guard is in Iraq. |
| 2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39429 Activity:nil |
9/1 Hastert to city: Drop dead.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/342517p-292444c.html
\_ "But you know we build Los Angeles and San Francisco on top of
earthquake fissures and they rebuild too. Stubbornness."
he meant 'stubbornness' in a good way right
\_ Really nice thing to say while dead bodies are floating in the
streets.
He meant 'stubbornness' in the good way right |
| 2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39428 Activity:nil |
9/1 Katrina is definitely looking good for Bush. It takes our
attention away from our military disasters, like
Operation Iraqi Orphans.
\_ and Operation Karl Rove
\_ Did he do something naughty? I've forgotten ... |
| 2005/9/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39426 Activity:nil |
9/1 For those who think the hurricane is making Bush look bad, please
think again from the perspective of conservatives. Remember 911?
While liberals say there's intelligence failure and point out
to other facts, conservatives look at Bush as the hero. He goes
on TV & radio and tells everyone that he'll do whatever it takes
to provide peace|safety|security|whatever, and each time that
happens his approval rating goes up. 911 proved that facts and
smarts don't matter to most Americans! What matters is how strong
you project your images on media and the hurricane will prove
just that. It's happening again. Bush is saying how many troops
or help is on the way to Louisiana while ignoring the obviously
bad things that are going on. Liberals, wake up! FORGET ALL FACTS AND
FIGURES!!! The hurricane is Bush's free ticket on media and
this is exactly why the conservatives will keep supporting
our chief no matter what. The hurricane isn't making Bush look
bad. It is making Bush look good. REALLY GOOD.
\_ I think it's far too early to make a declaration on the political
fallout. People across the spectrum are pissed that he didn't
come back from the ranch as soon as it was clear this was going
to be BIG. I heard a few times on cnn the sentiment of "is he
_still_ on vacation?"
\_ Who the hell watches CNN besides liberals? Fox News is THE MOST
\_ Who the hell watches CNN besides gays? Fox News is THE MOST
WATCHED NEWS IN THE US! Since Fox News is pro-Bush and the
MOST WATCHED NEWS, what matters is what Fox News says.
\_ Gays are being denied FEMA aid. Santa Monica has sent
aid earmarked for Gays. -tyms
\_ http://foxnews.com: 'We Don't Have Help'
\_ If Bush was actually leading that would be true, but he has done
a really shitty job of the whole leading thing. Plus the absolutly
inept job of evacuating NO looks worse by the hour, especially
considering all that money sunk on terrorism preparedness. Gee
shouldn't they have a plan for evacuating the city by now?
\_ If the guitar picture gets play, say goodbye to the Midterms.
\- President My Pet Goat brought low trying
to be a Dixie Hick? too bad there wasnt a
bottle of JD in the picture.
\_ url?
\_ http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856
\_ That G chord is on the wrong fret. |
| 2005/9/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39425 Activity:low |
9/1 "The question this hour is: How would you rate the response of the
federal government to Hurricane Katrina? ... we got 500-600 letters
before the show even went on the air. No one -- no one -- says the
federal government is doing a good job in handling one of the most
atrocious and embarrassing and far-reaching and calamitous things that
has come along in this country in my lifetime. I'm 62, I remember the
riots in Watts, I remember the earthquake in San Francisco. I remember
a lot of things. I have never, ever, seen anything as badly bungled
and poorly handled as this situation in New Orleans. Where the hell is
the water for these people? Why can’t sandwiches be dropped to
those people who are in that Superdome down there? I mean, what is
going -- this is Thursday. This storm happened five days ago."
-Jack Cafferty, CNN
\_ Ok, good. Meanwhile, Fox News, the most watched news in the US
and trusted by more than 50% of the Americans, say that Louisiana
is the fault of the state. States should handle their own affairs.
Similarly, libertarians who usually side with the Bushies will
say that the disaster is the fault of the people. The smart ones
should have left long time ago, and the lazy/dumb ones should
have stocked up water, food, and weapons. No one can take care
of yourself better than yourself. That's the libertarian mentality
\_ Fox News says it's the state's fault?
\_ Yeah if yer smart you don't get pregnant or old or disabled when
you know a hurricane is on the way!
\_ And you don't let your national guard guys go and die in a
silly place like iraq. man. those LAites were just asking
for it.
\_ Worse, they commited the crime of being poor.
\_ Of course, in the other cases, the streets weren't flooded. It's
kind of hard to do rescue/recovery work when you can only use boats
and the majority of your response vehicles are wheeled.
\_ Which is what i would expect the BILLIONS for DHS would go toward
developing a plan for. But I guess that's too much to ask.
Yup. it is:
Yup. it is: http://csua.org/u/d8b (bestofneworleans.com)
\_ I should probably mention the speech I had to sit through at
a conference given by the lt. governor of Indiana, describing
how they were spending $5 BILLION to thwart agroterrorism
in Indiana. That's right, 5 billion. That's a lot of
blankets and water supplies. Now picture a room full of the
cream of US corporate IT security management, including some
FBI guys just burying their heads in their hands and groaning.
Just thought I should mention that, yes. -John
http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-28/cover_story2.html
\_ I didn't know anyone cared about Indiana.
\_ "Why can't sandwiches be dropped"
\_ "Why can't po'boys be dropped" |
| 2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39423 Activity:high |
9/1 I'm listening to CNN and I can't believe how HAPPY the
news reporters sound at describing the terrible situation
in New Orleans. Has anyone else noticed this? Is anyone
else disturbed by this?
\_ anything that makes Bush looks bad is worth it.
\_ Bush is looking bad b/c of the hurricane? I didn't
pick up on that.
\_ The Federal Government in general looks slow and incompetant.
Bush II is the face of the government. And he himself is
reacting slowly on the disaster relief front.
\_ Well he did have a b-day party for McCain and guitar
practice to attend.
\_ And he did declare LA a disaster area before the party.
\_ Someone deleted my comment, but I think blonde folksy robotic
news anchors are par for the course nowadays. Just look at Fox
News - they use an equivalent tone to report news on Bennifer
as they do for Iraq.
\_ You'd be like that too with a face full of botox and body
swimming in uppers and downers. |
| 2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car] UID:39419 Activity:low |
9/1 In the light of gas shortages, doesn't it make sense for the
GOVERNMENT to say something about conservation? In my country,
we get government messages on TV regarding typhoon, gas shortages,
electricity conservation, and general things to help calm the people.
Doesn't the US government care about its people?
\_ President Bush "hoped" people would conserve gas ... Of course that
immediately caused a run on gas stations, producing the opposite
result ... You have to remember the faith-based reality the current
administration lives in: there are no shortages, nothing ever runs
out and the invisible hand of Adam Smith and/or God always provides
in the end. That makes it a bit harder to deal with reality.
\_ What is your name son? We would like to talk to you, in
private. -The Bush People
\_ US EPA: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/mpg.htm
US DOE: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
These sites have been around for years.
\_ This is as useful as having it on display in the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign
on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard."
\_ Care to help spread the word?
\_ The "government" cares more about protecting the profits of
corporations and getting reelected. Remember the "John Jerry
thinks we should tax gasoline so people drive less" ads? Very
effective if totally fabricated.
\_ No, where can I find this ad?
\_ I can't find the ad but here's a reference to it:
http://www.bestoftheblogs.com/2004_03_30_bestof.html |
| 2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39407 Activity:nil |
9/1 "Bush rejects foreign help, says United States could take care
of itself... Bush defended the federal government's response to
the growing crisis amid urgent pleas for help from stranded victims.
He said the breach of the levees that led to the submerging of much
of New Orleans had not been anticipated."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/weather_bush_dc
Why does Reuters hate GW Bush?
\_ You can criticize Bush without the "why does xyz hate" line.
\_ "The breach had not been anticipated" -- sounds a bit like "who
knew there were no WMDs" -- Faith based administration!
\_ So we are doing what India initially did during the tsunami,
rejecting foreign help out of national pride.
\_ Whoops! Now US accepting aid...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-01-foreignaidkatrina_x.htm |
| 2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39398 Activity:nil |
9/1 Liberal: Katrina is Bush's fault
Conservative: Katrina is the terrorists' fault
Libertarian: Katrina is the residents' fault
Christian: Katrina is our fault for supporting gays and lesbians
Muslim: Katrina is punishment for occupying sacred Arab land
Bhuddism: Katrina is no one's fault
\_ You aren't too bright, are you?
CSUA: It is yermom's fault
\_ I disagree. It's never yermom's fault. yermom is just yermom.
\_ The hurricane is no one's fault. The lack of response/prep,
however, is the fault of a someone or group of someones.
\_ Who are you, humourless motd lamer? |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39402 Activity:nil |
8/31 Yay humanity
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1174992&forum_id=26
\_ Where are the National Guards to protect the people? This is sad.
Orlean libertarians everywhere, helping themselves. Shame. Shame.
\- in fairness, these arent libertarians. although in extra
fairness, most libertarians i've met arent libertarians either.
\_ NO libertarians are the ones most likely to have guns, a working
generator and food/water storage and least in need of help. |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39401 Activity:nil |
8/31 http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/8/31/233427.shtml Dems blaming Bush for Katrina. \_ In other news, statue of elvis found on Mars! |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car] UID:39400 Activity:nil |
8/31 Exactly how deregulated is the gasoline industry? In the light of
less gas due to Katrina, isn't it possible that they pull an Enron?
\_ Why? There is no need to fake a crisis. |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39392 Activity:high |
8/31 Poll: Did you / are you going to donate more/same/less for the Katrina
relief effort than what you donated for the South Asia Tsunami relief
effort?
More :
Same : .
Less : .
Not decided yet : .
0 : .
0 in both cases : ..
\_ I need to defend my reasoning. Donating after a disaster is like
volunteering to serve food to starving people during Thanksgiving.
While the gesture is noble, people need food the other 364 days.
Just because you are nice one day, doesn't mean these people
will have the means to survive later on. It is thus a shallow
gesture, and doesn't solve the root of the problem. I don't
believe in a one-time effort. I believe in a long term, consist
solution to the root of the problem, like educating people to
improve their lives, saving up national treasury for rainy days,
or better yet, make the drastic move to turn US more like Denmark
where there are no poor people to kill/starve themselves.
Unfortunately the US government will never do anything. It has
a history of irresponsively externalizing problems to someone or
somewhere else. The US has this mentality that if something goes
wrong with your life, it is always your fault. Well, that is just
heartless, selfish, and wrong. Your problem is my problem, and
my problem is your problem.
my problem is your problem. Let's help each other out. Help
me turn the profit oriented, corporate-run America into a nation
that has more compassion for its people. Join my revolution
and no one will ever have to worry trivial things like donations.
Help me a little and everyone will be greatly rewarded. !che
\_ This is stupid for many reasons, here are some:
1. The U.S. government has already allocated billions to
save New Orleans. Since we all pay taxes, and since
California gets only about 80 cents on the dollar for
taxes sent to D.C., we are all already footing the bill.
2. Americans are amongst the highest, if not the highest,
donors in the world. On a per capita basis, Americans will
donate more to more causes than any other society on the
face of the planet.
3. America is exceedingly diverse. Denmark isn't. You can't
compare a dinky country like Denmark to the U.S. In fact,
you can't really compare any country to the U.S. The U.S.
is unique in terms of composition of its populace and its
place in geopolitics.
4. The U.S. is also the most generous internationally. It
gives out more aid to the world than any other country.
\_ USA actually ranks close to last in aid on a per-capita basis.
http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html
\_ God, I can just feel my brain cells dying. -- ilyas
\_ !che is pretty anti libertarian. Sorry ilyas, I'll be happy
to see self-absorbed people like you die.
\_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most assuredly,
yourself. The difference between you and me, is that I am
willing to 'live and let live.' You, on the other hand,
wish me dead. Now lecture me some more about my immorality.
-- ilyas
\_ Almost everybody is self-absorbed including, most
assuredly, yourself. The difference between you and me,
is that I am willing to 'live and let live.' You, on
the other hand, wish me dead. Now lecture me some more
about my immorality. -- ilyas
\_ "Almost everyone is self absorbed" is a blatant
generalization, and almost certainly false.
\_ And calling me self-absorbed without knowing anything
about my life is what? You make me laugh. -- ilyas
\_ I wasn't the person that wants you to die. I
want you to live! The motd would be a less
entertaining place without you, ilyas. -pp
\_ Can you please explain why there are so many people
out there volunteering for nothing in return?
\_ Because it makes them feel good. "But that's not
what self-absorbed usually means!" you ll cry.
My response: "how did the pp know I was self-absorbed
in that sense?" -- ilyas
\_ not the pp but I wish you were dead because you can't
fucking conform to 80 columns. asshole.
\_ You make me proud to call myself a nerd.
\_ I believe in helping people in both cases dumbass.
\- "live and let live" when actually "live and 'there is no
and'" is just sloganeering. the point is that some people
are not "and living" ... without help, the will have a
signifiant probability of dying and almost no chance to
improve their lot in life [nozick's idea of "life chances"].
i believe most of the poverty in this country is not, in
jeffrey sachs poignant expression, "the poverty that kills".
"live and let live" in the global context [as opposed to
say discussions about say social agenda in the us ... drug
legalization, assmaster marriage etc] is like saying "i
believe in equality ... i am happy not giving medicine to
the sick *and* the well". see e.g. A. K. Sen "equallity of
what" essay/sppech.
what" essay/speech. maybe you can change you slogan to
"live and whatever".
\_ Partha you don't strike me as particularly dumb, but when
it comes to libertarian stuff it's like most of your brain
just shuts off. 'Live and let live' is about applications
of state power, not a statement about how one ought to live
one's life morally. -- ilyas
\_ It warms the cockles of my heart to know that somewhere
a taxpayer is being forced at gunpoint to pay for
ilyas to write these sentences for us all to see.
\_ See, Eli, you don't understand selfish behavior.
The libertarian answer to a non-libertarian society
is to game it for all it's worth while pointing
and laughing. -- ilyas
\- i dont think that is true. i just dont fall for the
artificial boundaries libertarians of moderate
sophistication draw. first of all, a lot of these
people will change their tune when they need the help
[orange county bail out] and there really diffcult
problems of "too big to fail" [what is the liberaltarian
answer to LTCM?]. this thread began with the idea of
resource allocation not political liberty, so i think
my continuing to think in that mode is not unreasonable.
i'm actually fairly libertarian when it comes to
people playing on a level playing field except
one has to distinguish between "if i were king"
and "what do we do now" scenarios that take the
the status quo as a given [like you can be opposed
to the iraq war yet feel we cant leave now].
it may be an interesting academic discussion whether
something like federal deposit insurance is a good
or bad thing from a libertarian perspective, but i
think the libertaian perspective has little to say
about what to do about the hundreds of thousands of
people dying of malaria. i dont really care if you
want to throw terms like "state power" around ...
when discussing charity, those are the types of
questions that concerns me, not cancer research
or school vouchers etc. anyway, i was not making
abscract ethical statements like "do not lie" but
my conception of "distributive justice".
\_ Artificial boundaries my ass. Do you fall for
artificial boundaries between moderate socialists
and communists? Why are libertarians so different
all of a sudden? If voluntary charity concerns you,
libertarians have nothing to say about it (not being
moral philosophers). Any other kind of charity falls
under the rubric of 'state power.' -- ilyas
\- i am not defending socialism, communism, anachists
trostskiites, marxists, democrats xtian fruitcakes
randroids, bolshvicks, mamuluks, baski bazouks or
any other group in particular. there are a couple
smart people i list [including the leading light
of smart libertarians, nozick]. i am criticizing
libertairians here because they are the "live
and let live" party. if you want to have a thread
on environmental legislation ot affirmative
action or regulation of barbers or hollywood's
role in diverting $ to pet medical projects
i would probably attack some non-libertarian
group. i have said before a lot of liberals
operate with the assumetion "poor people are
stupid" and get defensive when you call them on
it. i think they shoudl acknowledge that as an
operating assumeption but they cant have it both
ways. libertarianism may have more theoretical
parsimony but has some big empirical problems.
for example if state A > B it not not necessarily
true that C "near" A is better than A. see e.g.
Cancun Fuck You. for the record, i think
televanglists are worse than libertarians.
BTW, are you controled in part by Sander Greenland
in addition to Judah Pearl? --psb
\_ While I am sure you have some choice words to
say about certain Christians (perhaps on wall)
all I see from you on the motd is libertarian
bashing. Libertarians come across as your
favorite political punching bag for some reason,
which I find odd because they, as a group, are
responsible for none of the things you find
annoying (parasite CEOs, etc). In fact, as a
party they are responsible for next to nothing,
good or ill. Why do you care suddenly about
my Sith Lords? I sat in on Greenland's class,
and found him annoying. I couldn't exactly
figure out why. It's 'Judea' btw. -- ilyas
\- when i go to parties with communists in
berkeley, then i attack them. i didnt
realize i had to give equal time to who i
"bash" on the wall/motd. maybe you can
search the wall logs/kchang logs for my
comments on ALGOR and BILLARY. it's not
my fault hillary is no longer public enemy
number one. did sander show you his large
telescope?
\_ You know, if he offered to show me his
large telescope, I don't think I would
have taken him up on it. Do you collect
smart people you know like trophies?
You know, collecting things is the
economic prism through which a
'merchant soul' (Plato) views acquisition
of knowledge. -- ilyas
\- i know ander via the person who was
\- i met sander via the person who was
\- i know sander via the person who was
hiding in the closet in a previous
motd post. i think his house
used to be owned by a sex cult or some
\- i met sander via the chick who was
hidining in the closet in a previous
motd post/wall. i think his house
use to be owned by a sex cult or some
thing like that. that is where he
keeps his large telescope. he also
has a large skaeboard, which i thought
was sort of pecular. hey ididnt know
according to JP terry speed was
involved in the OJ trial.
libertarians have nothing to say about it. Any
other kind of charity falls under the rubrik of
'state power.' -- ilyas
figure out why. -- ilyas
keeps his large telescope.
involved in the OF trial. |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39391 Activity:low |
8/31 Local New Orleans paper predicted this problem almost exactly about 3
years ago:
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/harmsway_1.html
\_ John McPhee predicted this back in 1989. Great Book:
http://www.johnmcphee.com/controlofnature.htm
\_ And who came along to cut the funding for the Army corps of
eng. to work on it?
\_ Bush, but it was Clinton's fault.
\_ Just curious, but why do the Feds pay for this? Shouldn't
the local tax base pay for it? Touching on the comment
someone else made about CA tax dollars leaving the state,
why should CA dollars be used to build a bridge in TN or
a levy in LA?
\_ If you believe that then you also believe we shouldn't
have federal taxes higher than required to maintain a
national military and little else. Is that so?
\_ Sort of. I think there are other programs other
than defense that deserve federal funding, but a
lot of this should be handled at the state and
local levels.
\_ Sort of. I think there are programs other than defense
that deserve federal funding, but a lot of this should
be handled at the state and local levels.
\_ Is this what Federalism means? I help myself
and you help yourself?
\_ Is that a rhetorical question?
\_ And that is why the Kurds and the Sunnis want it. |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39385 Activity:moderate |
8/31 Quick motd list. Hurricane Katrina related songs! I'll start:
Led Zeppelin, "When The Levee Breaks"
Simon and Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"
Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
Metallica, "The God That Failed"
\_ Now it's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge.
\_ It's more like Water Over Troubled Bridge now.
Scorpions, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
Bob Dylan, "Rock You Like A Hurricane"
Bob Dylan, "Hurricane"
Neil Young, "Like a Hurricane"
\_ We already have Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
MS and AL apparently. God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
Metallica, "The God That Failed"
Tchaikovsky, The 1812 Overture
\_ Why?
Bob Dylan, "Like a Hurricane"
Bob Dylan, "The God That Failed"
Bob Dylan, "Blowing in the Wind"
"Row, Row, Row Your Boat", the last line being "Life is but a dream".
Peter Gabriel, "Here Comes the Flood"
\_ Bob Dylan, right?
\_ It's the kid song:
"Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream."
\_ Life is not a dream. -spock
Bob Dylan, "Here Comes the Flood"
Bob Dylan, "Down in the Flood"
Elvis Costello, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
Bob Dylan, "Pouring Water on a Drowning Man"
James Carville, "I am a very wet Cajun"
\_ U2 "Summer Rain"
\_ Bod Dylan, "Summer Rain"
\_ Johnny Cash: "Three Feet High and Rising"
Jars of Clay, "Flood"
\_ Did this Bob Dylan guy have a bad childhood filled with bad weather
or something?
\_ Blob Dylan: Where the Street have no name |
| 2005/8/31-9/2 [Science/Disaster, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39384 Activity:nil |
8/31 Foamy Squirrel hurricane special: http://csua.org/u/d7k \_ http://csua.org is down. This is exactly why I prefer other superior sites like http://tinyurl.com. http://csua.org simply can't match the scalability and reliability of http://tinyurl.com. \_ Scalability of this type of application isn't really an issue. \_ http://tinyurl.com was down for ~ 3 hours 2 weeks ago in the middle of the day (that I noticed) \_ http://csua.org/u also has: * list of recent and popular links * lists of recent and popular links * rss feed of same * cached copies of HTML pages --dbushong \_ http://csua.org/u doesn't have: * ads \_ This appears to be something available on http://illwillpress.com Why bother with http://csua.org. |
| 2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39381 Activity:moderate |
8/31 Along the lines of fundamentalist idiots saying that HIV is God's
way of punishing gays, is Katrina God's way of punishing
fundamentalist idiots who voted for Bush?
\_ I think coastal urban areas vote democrat even in the South. I'm
pretty sure New Orleans is overwhelmingly Democratic. And yes,
I'm guessing that as with 9/11 we'll be hearing from the bible
thumping pig fuckers about why this is happening.
\_ We already have. Repent America says the hurricane hit LA (and
MS and AL apparently. God's aim sucks.) because NO was having
the Southern Decadence festival on Labor Day weekend.
\_ No. It's God's Will. You heathens can't possibly fathom what
that means.
\_ What are you, a stupid liberal? Katrina is God's way of punishing
U.S. for not kicking out all the gays and lesbians to Canada.
Speaking of Canada they're gonna get it. -Christian Fundie
\_ I thought this was God's way of punishing the insurance
industry for the sin of greed.
\_ Good one!
\_ If that's the case, there should be earthquakes in CA instead of
one of bush's states.
hurricanes in one of bush's states.
\_ Katrina is an omen to the housing market that is about to crash
and trash like we never seen before. It is a punishment for you
capitalists trying to gobble up precious resources in the name
of "using money to make money", and as a result re-create
Capitalist Monarchy and class hierarchy in the society.
\_ The housing market is going crash in the southeastern states.
\_ Apparently some read fundie groups are claiming it is God punishing
New Orleans for being "sinful":
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/08/31/cause/index.html |
| 2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39380 Activity:high |
8/31 Ok, I thought blaming Bush for the levees breaking was stretching
things a bit, then I run into this:
"It appears that the money has been moved in the presidents budget
to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose thats
the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees cant be
finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that
this is a security issue for us."
Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish,
Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004
\_ Parish is a dissent and will be going to Guantanamo Bay soon.
\_ Idiot! "Parish" is the Lousiana term for district/county;
and "Jefferson" being the name of the Parish.
\_ Hence further proof that Liberals are idiots.
\_ Illogical. If you see a stupid American, does that
mean all Americans are stupid? No. Your statement
is proof however that _you_ are an idiot.
\_ Mr. Parish is also "a dissent". |
| 2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39377 Activity:nil |
8/31 white people find things: http://redirx.com/?3h1a black people loot: http://redirx.com/?3h1f - danh \_ Note the difference in quantity. Also the 8-hour difference in the time of the photos (i.e. attitudes may have changed in that time). \_ Don't you think "finding bread and soda from a local grocery store" is pretty strange language, no matter what the quantity or timing is? -tom \_ Yes, but why the assumption that race makes the difference? Also, if the items were found outside of the store (floated out, etc.) what would you call it? \_ 1) Occam's Razor. 2) Looting. -tom \_ Didn't someone post this yesterday? In any case, note that the pictures and captions are from 2 different sources. There's no cigar until you have *one* source calling the white act "finding" and the same black act "looting". Ah yes, refer from below to http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/44689 . \_ Following up to myself, even within one agency, there are different photographers and different people writing captions to pictures. So, without being able to track down to one caption writer and similar circumstances (impossible to know from just looking at a picture), it's hard to make any logical conclusion of racism. I do wonder if this is the best time to throw up misleading racism canards though. \_ Ok, fine. So what do Asians, American Indians, and Mexicans do? You left us out. You're a fucking racist. -Asian \_ wouldn't you smarties have left town before the hurricane struck? \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver something for all that protection money. Oh wait, sorry, that was in LA. -John \_ Asians ninja their shit ... \_ No, they put puzzled-looking gang members with rifles on grocery store roofs when they finally have to deliver something for all that protection money. Oh wait, sorry, that was in LA. -John |
| 2005/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39366 Activity:moderate |
8/30 So martial law has been declared in parts of Louisiana. What I want
to know is where is the bitching, moaning and wringing of hands about
\_ I don't see anything natural about it. -John
this? You know, like the bitching about similar things in Iraq.
-- ilyas
\_ Yeah, because the situations are so similar. -John
\_ Oh, I think comparing Bush to a natural disaster is fair.
\_ They're arguably both Acts of God. -geordan
\_ I don't see anything natural about it. -John
\_ Ilyas, how about your bitching and moaning about being forced
AT GUNPOINT to help bail out insurance companies, and other ways
federal tax dollars are being used in Louisiana? -meyers
\_ Maybe because libertarians love welfare, as long as it's rich
people or corporations who are getting the help.
\_ so true
\_ You want we should bomb parts of Louisiana? What can we do there
that Katrina did not?
\_ There has been plenty of rioting and looting in Berkeley over the
years but only the Telegraph shop keepers and their insurance
companies were upset about that.
\_ There is no such thing as "martial law" in state law.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46073 |
| 2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39371 Activity:nil |
8/30 Photo from eye of Katrina:
http://csua.org/u/d76 (en.wikipedia.org)
\_ Wow! What kind of airplane was it?
\_ The caption says: "...as seen from a NOAA P-3 hurricane hunter
aircraft."
\_ Got it. A 4-engine propeller plane. Thanks. I thought it
had to be some powerful jet figher to be able to safely fly
close to a hurricane.
\_ http://www.aoc.noaa.gov/aircraft_lockheed.htm
\_ It has to be a slow plane in order to go with the hurricane.
Something too fast would require a lot of turns. |
| 2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39364 Activity:high |
8/30 In A.D. 2005, hurricane was approaching.
\_ And it created an unexpected hero, President George W. Bush.
\_ Who golfed everyone right out of trouble.
\_ Yeah, sure. Whatever.
\_ Don't you know that Katrina is a Rovian plot to divert
the public's attention from the War and Cindy Shennan
and BUSHCO's shenanagins?
\_ In 2005 AD, the hurrcane triggered a global recession more
severe than the hurricane itself. |
| 2005/8/30-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39362 Activity:low |
8/30 Am I the only one who finds comparisons of this hurricane to the
Boxing Day tsunami as tacky and out of proportion? --expat alum
\- "I can only imagine," Gov. Haley Barbour said slowly,
"that this is what Hiroshima looked like 60 years ago."
\_ wow, now if they'd just try a holocaust simile we
could have a truly tacky trinity.
\_ A city of about 500K is underwater. Sorry, I think you're an idiot.
\_ A city of about 500K is underwater including many white people.
Sorry, I think you're an idiot. -emarkp
\_ Hundreds dead vs. hundreds of thousands dead. Days of warning
vs. minutes of warning (if at all). Hmm ......
vs. minutes of warning (if any). Hmm ......
\_ I'm sorry, I didn't know there was an accurate count of the
dead. Did you know they're painting black marks on houses so
they can go back and collect the dead when cars can get
through?
\_ "Hundreds" is not an accurate count.
\- the biggest difference is whether yo live in a society
with a social safety net or not. the best comparison
is to various bay of bengal monsoons and the effect
on bangladesh. the hiroshima "comparison" is just dumb,
but it is pretty much "free" for pols to make comments
but it is pretty much "free" for people to make comments
like this [or for pat to make comments like he made
recently]. --somebody who has done a fair amount of
travel in societies without soc safety nets
recently].
\_ what the hell does "including white people" mean?? I slightly
modify my orignal impression, as the news here in S.E. Asia
was talking about 70 dead when the tsunami simile appeared. But
I still wonder about comparing it to an event that killed at
least half a million people w/ an hour's warning. -op
\_ I enjoy spending time with white people.
Do you have a problm with that? Are you white? -emarkp
\_ I have a problem w/ people assigning more value
to lives wrapped in one skin color or flag, yes.
And yes I am a white American.
\_ Yeah, but WHITE PEOPLE died in New Orleans. Even worse,
conservative white people. Oh the humanity!
\_ Where did you get the 500k number?
\_ I mispoke and should have said "up to" half a million.
Those were the trends being reported here in SEA when
people seemed to stop counting. Indonesia alone lost
whole towns and cities and cannot count accurately
but was being estimated at a quarter million as I recall. |
| 2005/8/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39356 Activity:kinda low 52%like:39448 |
8/30 Police join in looting Wal-Mart in New Orleans
http://csua.org/u/d73
\_ That's nice you get to sit and get fat hacking away
at your "job" so you can criticize someone who would
take a bullet for your fat-ass.
\_ Mmm.. kneejerk. do you like police corruption? granted, this
\_ Mmm.. kneejerk. do you like corrupt police? granted, this
is not the same as swiping drugs/money from evidence lockup,
but still.. Or have we all been trolled?
\- Where is a photojournalist/sobody with a cell phone camera
when you need one:
Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six
feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched
atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.
\_ You don't know much about New Orleans' cops.
\_ "At least one officer tried futilely to control a looter through
shame. 'When they say take what you need, that doesnt mean an
f-ing' TV'"
\_ I thought this kind of things only happens in a third world country.
\_ What do you think New Orleans is right now?
\_ Black people loot, white people borrow:
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/44689
\_ "It fell off a truck"
\_ And Asians... ? |
| 2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39338 Activity:nil |
8/29 Whistleblower on Halliburton no-bid $7 billion contract demoted
http://csua.org/u/d6t (LA Times) |
| 2005/8/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39308 Activity:moderate |
8/27 Told you the Bushi'ites were going to turn violent:
"In one heated moment, members of the pro-Bush crowd turned on
what they mistakenly thought were a group of anti-war protesters,
cursing them, threatening them and tearing down their signs.
A police officer rushed the group to safety."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050827/pl_nm/iraq_usa_protest_bush_dc
They see their dreams of world hegemony crumbling before their
eyes, so they are taking out their frustration on the nearest
available target, right now Cindy Sheehan.
\_ So what became of the reports of people attacking wounded vets
at the vet hospital? Did the anti-Bush attackers see their
dreams of world hegemony crumbling before their eyes, so they
took out their frustrations on the nearest available target,
right now some wounded vets just back from Iraq?
\_ URL? If true, this is disgustig.
\_ I assume the OP was referring to the Code Pink protest
\_ URL? If true, this is disgusting.
\_ I assume the pp was referring to the Code Pink protest
outside Walter Reed.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/pol/93345236.html
(CNSNews.com is down, but this seems to be a faithful quote.)
http://csua.org/u/d6f (CNSNews)
\_ If this is the case, pp is nicely twisting "protesting at
army hospital" to "attacking wounded vets". Nonetheless
it's a pretty inappropriate place for a protest. -John
\_ When have the "anti-Bush attackers" ever dreamed of global
hegemony. Your message is muddied a bit by your pointless troll.
\_ Uhm, hello? Marxism? Read a book some time.
\_ A hell of a lot of very financially conservative people think
Bush is a mistake in every conceivable way. Anti-Bush ==
Marxism is about as stupid as you can get.
\- without defending marxism as a accurate description of
how national/global economies work, it is a fairly
interesting theory ... you learn something about what
it means to come up with a theory in the social sciences
and stucturally it has a lot in common with ideas that
in terms of substance it is totally unrealted to, if not
antithetical [for example what is the relationship of
natialism to other forces, be the class-consciousness, or
"globalism"/bond market etc]. see e.g. response to
T FRIEDMAN by JOHN GRAY. --psb
\_ Thanks for the tip -- John Gray's article is quite
good. -- Tom "Metropolitan" Townsend
\- you may wish to read the article on
Whit Stillman's "world view" reference in:
http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/BLOG/MetropolitanJudgment.txt
\_ STW for Code Pink. Context. Thank you.
\_ From a Code Pink website:
"CODEPINK is a women initiated grassroots peace and
social justice movement that seeks positive social
change through proactive, creative protest and
non-violent direct action." Sounds like Evil Monolithic
Communism to me. "positive social change" is probably
a code word for teaming up with the UN to take your
guns away and seep your precious bodily fluids.
\_ And this doesn't scream "MARXIST!" to you? Okey
dokey! Good job at reading between the lines. If
Halliburton's website described the company as being
an environmentally friendly, peace loving, do-no-
evil place, you'd believe that too, huh?
\_ IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US, YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS! -GWB |
| 2005/8/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39291 Activity:low |
8/26 Nice, John Bolton is already making a huge impact!
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_08_21.php#006347
\_ I'd just as easily believe Bolton were doing it with complete
support from the Administration.
\_ Uh.. duh. Bolton is Bush's guy, though, not the State
Department's. By all indications, State had been trying
to get the guy out of there. He fucks up everything he
touches. I think that's why Bush likes him. How else is
he gonna get his war with Iran?
\_ hey, isn't he supposed to be Condi's guy more than Dubya's?
wasn't condi throwing all this support in for Bolton?
\_ Not particularly. She basically said "Don't worry,
We'll babysit him if you confirm him"
\_ "John Bolton is eminently qualified for this job. And I'm
the one who talked to the president about having John do
this." -Sec State Rice, May 11 2005
\_ You didn't follow the confirmation process too closely,
huh?
\_ I probably followed it more closely than you:
In addition to saying they would keep him on a
leash, Rice also made that rather clear, emphatic
statement.
\_ Because Rice is a good trooper. The odor
of embarrassment about the guy is palpable.
\_ Let's put it this way: Between Cheney,
Rummy, and Rice (let's exclude Rove),
Rummy, and Rice (let's exclude Rove, please),
who do you think Dubya trusted most when it
came to checking himself before deciding to
invade Iraq?
came to deciding to invade Iraq?
\_ Apples to oranges. This quote from Rice
is for the unwashed masses (ie Congress).
Also, when has ever been apparent that
Bush checks himself?
\_ It's the first thing many people think
of (along the lines of: Rice is loyal
not dumb), and it's definitely
plausible, but so is my theory (true,
Rice is loyal, but she's more the
"dumb smart" person that Dubya trusts).
Rice is loyal, but she's also the
"smart" person that Dubya trusts).
Same goes with checking himself.
heh.
\_ He fucks everything up he touches? Is he Bush's clone?
\_ we don't have the troops for Iran.
we are nothing but a limp penis right now, and Bush knows it.
\- what is stephen krasner's role in this? |
| 2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39285 Activity:kinda low |
8/25 "Iraq on brink of meltdown"
http://csua.org/u/d5q (UK Telegraph)
"The Bush administration finally did something right in brokering
this constitution"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/25/opinion/25brooks.html
\_ The intellectual dishonesty of Brooks continues. Why should the
Sunnis accept most or all of Iraq's oil revenue being taken from
them?
\_ they are not. They are being alienated from oil resources, so
they can be crushed in civil war later... Their only ally
is Saudi Arabia... provided that Saudi Arabia has the extra
bandwidth to supply arms and money for Sunni's cause :p
\_ I really think this "constitution" thing is all for American
domestic politics than for Iraq. There is hardly any sense of
rule of law there. Having constitution which no one going to
follow is kind of pointless.
\- what do you propose? we're not talking about just deciding
whether there will be jury trials or not. but you have to
define the basic existence of the organs of government.
britain may famously have an unwritten constitition but
the do have written laws governing elections to parliament
and such. striving for something as detailed as the failed
eu constitition is obviously absurd, but you do need something
like article i/ii/iii.
\_ i think i am trying to say that don't put much hopes up.
sure, constitution is nice, but there are no concept of
things like seperation of power, independent judicial branch,
etc. it is a classic example of what we are throwing
what worked for us at someone and naively think it will work
for them.
\- i think it is well understood(*) that order is a prereq
for law, that law does not mechanistically follow from
order, or even order + a constitution. the constitution
is supposed to help get from "mere" order [under saddam
there was order, just not justice, law equity or any
values procedural or substantive] to the rule of law.
(*) = excepting anarchist or libertarian fruitcakes.
bring it on, fruitcakes. --psb
\_ You know Partha, your rants about libertarians are even
less amusing than usual given that you don't even seem
to understand the crucial distinction between libertarians
and anarchists. What you just said is comparable to
\_ That anarchists listen to better music?
me saying 'it is well understood(*) that property rights
form a basis for a civilized society.
(*) = excepting communist and liberal fruitcakes.
bring it on, fruitcakes.' -- ilyas
\- 1. i understand libertarian != anarchists.
i didnt write "libertarian/anaarchists".
2. i agree communists dont appreciate the
importance of private property. i dont
like "liberals" means much there. a lot of
the liberal hedonists in a place like SF
are very keen on private property.
3. my dispute with you would be over the word
"basis". i am merely asserting the empirical
theory [as opposed to a value claim] that
order/law preceeds property, i.e. is "more
foundational".
4. i agree libertaians and anarchsts view of the
situation is different. just addressing
libertarians ... or even Friedmanite "flat
worlders" ... this is an example of modeling
too much behavior with narrow microecon
type thinking. --psb |
| 2005/8/25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39260 Activity:very high |
8/24 Which president owns the biggest ranch? Is it Bush? Or Washington
with his plantations? How about biggest mansions?
\- i'd have thought LBJ.
\_ wealthy rich Republican presidents from Virginia have the biggest
ranches and mansions
\_ I wonder what you would have said if the ketchup gigolo had won.
-- ilyas
\_ Rich Republicans have ranches; rich Democrats have compounds.
\_ Same ho, new lo!!!
\_ Bush's "ranch" isn't a "ranch" at all. A "ranch" would imply that
cattle are being raised. However, "sprawling mansion" makes him
sound less like a "regular guy," so "ranch" it is.
\_ Is it really a sprawling masnion? URL of pictures?
\_ Aparrently not. Or at least, I see no evidence of sprawling:
http://csua.org/u/d5g
\_ cease all fact bringing! ack!
\_ Don't look where the Google map marker is, look at the
estate at the end of the road, with the private tree-lined
drive, 3 buildings, lake view, and main house which is
about twice as large as the one by the map marker. While
it doesn't look palatial from the sattelite, it *does* look
like a mansion. |
| 2005/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39250 Activity:low |
8/24 Bush approval rating at 36%. Schweet.
http://americanresearchgroup.com/economy
\_ what does it matter? he is free to fuck up the world
until the next guy gets elected.
\_ Stop it! You're making Mr. Justin Black angry! Don't you realize
how expensive psychiatric therapy is? You guys are cruel.
\_ link:csua.org/u/d50 (graph with many polls)
You can compare the AmResGp data with other data. The recent
Harris data point backs it up a little bit.
\_ why does this matter? Its not like we can chose to not reelect him.
\_ It shows that, for whatever reason, the American people are
finally rejecting the Project for a New American Century,
which gives hope for the future. -tom
\_ No, actually, all it shows is that Bush is not popular right
now. The rest is all in your head. -- ilyas
\_ His war is also not popular.
\_ But at least he's not letting gays get married!
\_ Priorities, man, priorities. |
| 2005/8/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39230 Activity:nil |
8/23 Bush talking to veterans: "We owe them something. We will finish the
task that they gave their lives for..." Finishing the task? Look out
North Korea and Vietnam! We'll get it right this time!
http://csua.org/u/d4l
\_ Time to invade Vietnam and finish the task we started there
40 years ago!
\_ Veteran with his Bullshit Protector on
http://csua.org/u/d4o |
| 2005/8/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39201 Activity:nil |
8/20 "Qualls gained attention last week when he went to Sheehan's camp,
which has hundreds of crosses as a tribute to troops killed, and
removed one bearing his son's name. But he said protesters keep
replacing it; he has yanked two more crosses, saying the protesters'
views are disrespectful to soldiers."
http://csua.org/u/d3l |
| 2005/8/16-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39140 Activity:nil |
8/16 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050816/ts_nm/bush_protester_dc Take that, you godless liberals! \_ "we respect the troops, so we're gonna break your symbols of respect for the troops..." \_ One of the neighbors shot at her, too. How long till she becomes a martyr for her cause? \_ The guy fired a shot in the air. Even in this age of grade inflation and relaxed standards, you still have to die to become a martyr. \_ I give her a week before one of the deranged Freepers blows her brains out. \- Would you like to make a bet? --psb \_ No need. The neighbors are petitioning to ban protesters. This really IS Bush Country. \_ A neighbor (a relative of the guy who fired the shot) has offered them space on his land to stay. \- i am sort of suprised ROVECO hasnt found some iraqi mom whose son was shredded or boiled by S HUSSEIN to "spontaneously" reply saying something like "your son didnt die in vain, pls dont abandon us now. we love bush." --psb \_ Mom and Son probably got crushed to death together, you know the more the merrier principle of torture and despotism. |
| 2005/8/16-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39138 Activity:nil |
8/16 Funny. Sheehan didn't have a problem taking a picture with Bush last
year: http://www.csua.org/u/d1z
\_ You're not very bright, are you?
\_ Yeah, being in shock at the loss of your son is hilarious.
\_ Funny as in odd, not as in hilarious you fucktard.
\_ Someone's sarcasm detector is on the fritz.
\_ wow, she is obviously a hypocrite!
\_ No, just a nut.
\_ Hi jblack!
\_ It is not Sheehan that is the crazy one here:
\_ Perhaps it is not Sheehan that is the crazy one here:
http://csua.org/u/d2b (Yahoo News)
\_ Interesting article. You know, during the last days of
Germany, Hitler tried to moved troops that no longer
existed and talked about a final pushback that would
make his dream come true.
http://csua.org/u/d2c (Capitol Hill Blue)
\_ Heh. Damn Nazis. -- ilyas |
| 2005/8/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39116 Activity:low |
8/14 Wait a minute. LBJ's approval rating in March 1968: 41 percent.
Public's approval of LBJ's handling of Vietnam War at that time:
32 percent. Bush's approval rating now: 42 percent. Public's
approval of Bush's handling of Iraq: 34 percent. These ratings
are nearly identical, yet LBJ was forced to resign and Bush is still
treated as Mr. Popular? I just don't get it.
\_ Bush may well have as many people hating him as LBJ but I've never
met anyone who really loved or trusted LBJ, whereas the pro-bush
camp has blind, drooling adoration of their leader. As far as I
can tell, bush-haters and bush-lovers are balanced, while LBJ lacked
the balance. He was simply hated or tolerated.
\_ The alternative to Bush is less appealing to many.
\_ iirc, LBJ didn't resign, he chose not to run for a 2d term b/c
he was afraid he wouldn't get re-elected. (His "1st" term was
really JFK's 2d term).
\_ LBJ did not resign. Your history is lacking. Your bias
obvious.
\_ You are correct: LBJ did not resign; he declined to run for
re-election. LBJ did this because he had a shred of decency.
W wouldn't decline to run for re-election (if he could run for
re-election in '08, which we know he cannot) because he has
no honor or decency. -!op
\_ Heh, consider Chirac's approval rating. I think the most popular
rulers these days are Putin and Chavez. -- ilyas
\_ Why are you so obsessed with polls? About once a week for the last
2 months, you've posted something like this. Polls don't matter.
They don't even matter during an election season. They sure don't
matter to a second term President. You're aware he can't run
again, right? He hasn't exactly gone out of his way to win over
the American people to any of his policies. He's not big on PR,
bright lights, cameras, and microphones. Whatever else happens,
he won't be remembered as The Great Communicator. |
| 2005/8/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39111 Activity:nil |
8/13 Bush is planning another war. Better get ready for the
draft, students. No way is this going to happen with
an all volunteer military:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050813/ts_nm/iran_bush_dc
\_ Same thing Dubya said six months ago.
\_ And this is new how? Maybe you should take a closer look at
what Iran says internally, that's far more interesting.
\_ Using force does not mean a full-scale invasion. We could just bomb
their alleged WMD facilities and ballistic missiles.
\_ Giving it a second thought, I think this is just a scare tactic.
Any military confrontation with Iran will likely cause the southern
Iraq where the majority of Iraq's population lives to descend into
chaos. Al-Sistrani, Al-Sadr and his boys, and the rest of Iraqi Shia
population are keeping quiet only because they're being brought to
power with the support of our guns, and not because they enjoy
seeing the hordes of armed infidels roaming aroud the holiest shia
cities.
\_ I honestly do not think so. Bush is not in the habit of making
threats that he does not intend to back up with action.
\_ Super War Preview: http://www.exile.ru/2005-January-27/war_nerd.html |
| 2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39101 Activity:nil |
8/11 Surprisingly good Rolling Stone article about a month in the life of
the current Congress, and how it really works these days:
http://csua.org/u/d0q (rollingstone.com)
The section on China, Westinghouse, and the Ex-Im Bank is particularly
fascinating and infuriating. |
| 2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39100 Activity:low |
8/11 Dubya: "I sympathize with Mrs. Sheehan ... She feels strongly about
her position. She has every right in the world to say what she
believes. This is America. She has a right to her position. And I've
thought long and hard about her position. I've heard her position from
others, which is, 'Get out of Iraq now.'"
Mrs. Sheehan: "All we're asking is that he sacrifice an hour out of
his five-week vacation to talk to us, before the next mother loses her
son in Iraq."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/11/bush.ap/index.html
Strawman = Mrs. Sheehan wants Dubya to pull out troops now.
I love politics!
\_ Sheehan already talked with Bush. Why do you care what she says?
\_ As facts change, opinions change.
\_ Typical flipfliping homosexual fraceophile democrat.
\_ Typical flipfloping homosexual franceophile democrat.
\_ Typical flipfliping homosexual franceophile democrat.
\_ Francophile
\_ wrong. its franceophile.
link:csua.org/u/d0t
\_ Bzzzt!:
http://tinyurl.com/8zsp3
http://tinyurl.com/bt9zf
http://tinyurl.com/7twjr
http://tinyurl.com/9mbbt
link:tinyurl.com/dbkas
\_ What is your point?
\_ I bet BUD DAY
wouldn't have to
ask!
\_ mice was eaten
by a troll.
\_ Er? -mice
\_ Can't I be
eaten by a
grue? That
sounds much
more fitting.
-mice
Eternal values never change!
Like, there were WMDs! We can win! Good, let's get Saddam.
There were no WMDs! Um, can we win? Get Dubya to level with us.
\_ Was her son a volunteer soldier? Reservist? National Guard?
\_ Volunteer marine. Had reenlisted.
\_ Um, wow, no. He was Army.
\_ So what's she complaining about? He wanted to be there. |
| 2005/8/11-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39097 Activity:nil |
8/11 More on (moron?) the Freedom Walk
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/4944.html
\_ I'm surprised no one has commented on this. Is everyone
on the same page of disgusted?
\_ No. Given the general tenor of US politics over the last few
years, my threshhold for "digusted" has gone stratospheric. -John |
| 2005/8/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39081 Activity:kinda low |
8/10 Pentagon to organize huge march and Clint Black concert to celebrate
9/11. What the fuck?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/335938p-286948c.html
\_ I admit that this is odd, but calling it a celebration is
completely disingenuous.
\_ Can I have Clint Black sing at my funeral? I'm goin'
for _somber_.
fer _somber_.
\_ Okay, I should have put "celebration" in scare quotes. I'm
sure that's not their intention, but it sure smells like it.
Hence my "what the fuck." --op
\_ It's definitely weird, but I guess the Pentagon has some
sort of "right" because it was after all attacked on 9/11
with some 300-400 odd people dying (counting the ones on the
plane). Personally I find the concert in somewhat bad taste,
as I think a moment of silence or a reading of the names of
the dead is much more appropriate.
\_ It is called "waving the bloody shirt" and is an old
tried and true propaganda technique.
\_ http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/08/is-he-fucking-kidding.html |
| 2005/8/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39080 Activity:moderate |
8/10 Stories from a wounded Army soldier
http://csua.org/u/czk (Wash Post)
http://freerepublic.com comments on the end of the story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1460559/posts
\_ Freepers' version of respect for veterans "Wonder if this moron is
gay..sounds like what a queer would do." Why do freepers hate
America?
\_ "There is only room for one party in America and you liberals
better get used to it."
\_ So, is that an actual quote, or are you just making them
up again?
\_ http://csua.com/?entry=38572
\_ Oh, you're quoting liberal pretending to be a
conservative. That's so much better.
\_ Says you. That post was in earnest.
\_ Oh, come ON.
\_ Do you have evidence of who posted it?
Anyway, I could find you similar quotes
on any given conservative comment board
in two minutes.
\_ I don't require evidence of who posted
a troll to know it's a troll.
Especially one that blatant. I don't
Especially one that blantant. I don't
doubt that you could find something
similar on freerepublic or something.
I can find plenty of wacky left-wing
I can find pleanty of wacky left-wing
quotes on left-leaning boards too.
Anyway, please find one, at least then
you'd be using a real quote from a
real wing-nut, and not just someone
pretending to be a wing-nut.
\_ I am pretty sure it was jblack. He
posted a bunch of similar stuff that
day, then deleted anyone who disagreed
with him, then posted that. But it is
the motd, so there is no proof.
\_ Well, yeah. In this case, I
don't think it was jblack.
However, I can't say with
complete confidence that jblack
wouldn't post something like
that.
\_ This is egregious even for FR standards--the comments make me sick.
I wonder how many of the posters there are/were in the army. -John |
| 2005/8/8-11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39051 Activity:nil |
8/8 Rumsfeld: "I'm increasing troop levels before I decrease them."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050808/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_us_military
\_ He didn't say that, although that's what's happening.
\_ He didn't say that, although that's definitely the official plan.
Increase will occur for the elections.
Decrease will occur after, depending on conditions on the ground. |
| 2005/8/5-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39023 Activity:kinda low |
8/5 Liberals: It's over. We lost. For real. We're fucked.
http://newsforreal.blogspot.com/2005/08/august-1-2005.html
\_ He's got a few fallacies, but I think he's more or less
correct. The Democratic party has spent the last 5 years, at
least, yelling about issues that no longer apply, and
re-hashing old battles that are long over. I would love to see
the Dems come out of the 60's. It is, if nothing else, surreal
to see the Republicans fighting for equality and the Dems
squabbaling about diction. Please Dems, wake up to the 21st
century, we need another party.
On the other hand, here's a suprisingly lucid piece from
Feinstein:
http://csua.org/u/cya
\_ Yes, and I'd like to add that Bay Area is totally utterly
out of touch with the rest of the conservative America.
\_ The Bay Area is out of touch with liberal America, too,
in many ways. Limousine liberals, mostly.
\_ You don't know what liberal means, dim.
\_ I'm the pp and I'm not dim. I'm using scp to
thwart the stupid John Ashcroft script.
\_ How would you know? I cite this as another example
of being out of touch with reality.
\_ I love driving my limo through the Fastrak lane. - danh
http://csua.org/u/cyc
\_ If the Republicans are letting corporations get away with
evil things, how come we're seeing a bunch of CEOs and
managers go to jail?
\_ Because, first, there is no agreement on what evil corporate
behavior is, and, second, a whole lot of things that are
considered as evil corporate behavior by some are not punishable
by law. Those who go to jail obviously were caught breaking
the law.
\_ What's sad is people taking someone so logically weak seriously.
\_ Republican majorities in all three branches of government have
definite effects. It also has the effect of: Knowing who to
blame when the shit hits the fan.
The shit is hitting the fan, if you haven't noticed.
\_ Don't be so pessimistic. There are issues where GWB's administration
flatly failed (E.g. Social Security Privatization and judicial and
UN ambassador nomination fiascos). Public discontent is also
building up in a number of other areas (Iraq, the Plume affair, etc) |
| 2005/8/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39011 Activity:nil |
8/4 Americans DO love America!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050805/od_nm/usa_immigration_dc |
| 2005/8/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39009 Activity:high |
8/4 http://tinyurl.com/dfgca What's wrong with this picture? Did you yahoo and/or AP start photoshopping their photographs? \_ Nothing's wrong. It's a really bright flash on a sunny day. \_ What's wrong? No seat belts. \_ What's wrong? No seatbelts. |
| 2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39001 Activity:nil |
8/4 Bush describes Iraqi resistance as "dark, dim and backwards":
http://csua.org/u/cx8
\_ Erm, this says he was talking about Zawahri.. Conflating him
with "Iraqi resistance" would be... unsupported. |
| 2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38997 Activity:nil |
8/4 Novak takes off mike, walks off set after being taunted by Carville
about having to look tough for the right-wingers when Novak is being
gracious to Carville
Download video here:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/08/04.html#a4309
\_ Ooh, big bad mean jim carville... Come on.. Have you ever watched
them on shows together before? Novak needs a nap (in some nice
orange pyjamas)
\_ I think Carville is the closest I've seen a person to Gollum ever.
\_ I actually think Condi is closer
\_ Nah, the bald head and the voice clinch it.
\_ Nah, I think her buck teeth, the big forehead with the
weird wrinkles, the wild look in her eyes, and her
following the master around do it
http://csua.org/u/cxe (Condi, first thing on Yahoo! photos)
link:csua.org/u/cxf (Gollum)
\- Condie Rice is Angry!
http://www.condiriceisangry.com
\_ CNN Suspends Novak After He Walks Off Set - Yahoo! News:
http://csua.org/u/cxh |
| 2005/8/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38974 Activity:nil 80%like:38971 |
8/3 Roberts will go after Griswold vs. Connecticut:
http://csua.org/u/cwr (Washington Post)
\_ What about Griswold vs. Wally World? |
| 2005/8/3 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38971 Activity:nil 80%like:38974 |
8/3 Roberts will go after Griswold vs. Connecticut:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201913_pf.html |
| 2005/8/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38957 Activity:kinda low |
8/2 http://www.fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com Interesting read. -- ilyas \_ Oh no! An ultra conservative writer got killed. BOO HOO! \_ Yeah, the life of anyone who disagrees with your political philosophy has no value. Good way to win friends and influence people. \_ "There is only room for one party in this country" \_ How can you equate gloating over someone's death with a random trollish political statement? Nevermind.... \_ Wow, talk about delusions of grandeur. Do you always put quote marks around your comments? \_ He is quoting one of the motd Conservatives. Or perhaps a troll posing as a motd Conservative. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. http://csua.org/u/cwn \_ Ah, hiding behind http://csua.org. Are you ashamed of the real URL? \_ Wow, you're dumb. Or maybe just deeply paranoid? \_ No, the full URL was too long to put on one line in the motd. Did you even look at it? \_ Uh, ignore the liberal drones above. That wasn't the point of that url at all. -- ilyas \_ Don't you even asscociate some of the above with the Liberal Team - we don't want 'em. -Liberal Team Management |
| 2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38960 Activity:nil |
8/2 Ok, all you Bush-haters, in case you haven't seen this clip:
http://www.toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/138/index.php |
| 2005/8/2-4 [Science/Biology, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38949 Activity:high |
8/2 Bush comes out in support of teaching "intelligent design":
http://csua.org/u/cwg (yahoo! news)
\_ "People might cite George Bush as proof that you can be
totally impervious to the effects of Harvard and Yale
education."
\_ It's those damned C students!
\_ 55% of Americans (including 47% of Kerry voters) believe "God
created humans in present form". 27% believe "humans evolved, God
guided the process". A mere 13% believe "humans evolved, God did
not guide process". About 2/3 of Americans want creationism taught
along with evolution. "Intelligent design" is solidly in the
mainstream of American thought.
\_ It's safe to say that Bay Area is the opposite of mainstream.
I'm not sure if this is anything to be proud of anymore.
\_ We shouldn't be proud of teaching our students um, science in
science classes?
\_ 95% of Americans don't know what "Intelligent Design" means.
\_ Yes, I lent her my assault rifle? Sorry, did I miss something?
\_ Creationism IS taught alongside evolution, just not in the same
school.
\_ The ironic part is that most Protestant denominations,
the Catholic Church, and a fair chunk of Judaism have
accepted evolution as part of God's plan.
\_ What's amusing is that, when I was at a fairly religious
(protestant) jr. high school, the biology teacher, who was
an extremely religious man, made it clear that he felt it
was his duty that we were taught evolution even if he
himself believed otherwise (he never ever said this in the
context of a class, and even outside of class only when we
pressed him on the matter.) We had to take religion
classes, but even then they made very sure to only present
creationism and its ilk as "something some people believe
in". -John
\_ Wouldn't that make it "Intelligent Design"?
\_ No. Intelligent Design is a creationist critique of
evolutionary theory. It has nothing to do with
science, and everything to do with Biblical literalism.
\_ Huh, well, stick me in with the other 95% of
Americans I guess. According to Wikipedia, I
was thinking of Theistic evolution.
\_ Um, ID is formulated as a scientific hypothesis, from
what I understand of it. There was a long ass motd
what I understand of it. There was a long motd
discussion about it a while ago, complete with tom
making an ass of himself and everything. -- ilyas |
| 2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38943 Activity:nil |
8/2 You gotta love the more...direct qualities of international news
outlets. For instance, Hong Kong's Standard on Bolton nomination:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Focus/GH03Dh02.html |
| 2005/8/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38918 Activity:low |
8/2 "When the left attacks kids, you know it's in bad shape."
http://tinyurl.com/9ldmy
\_ A Fox News link! Thank you sir, may I have another?
\_ Here's the editorial that the above link is criticizing.
http://csua.org/u/cvx (Washington Post)
The FOX link is pretty dumb, but I have to admit, this
editorial is pretty stupid too, and deserves criticism.
\_ Do you know what makes an editorial, an editorial?
\_ Stupidity and pettiness?
\_ Wrong and wrong.
\_ The Wash Post editoritial is moronic. Would they have been happy
if the girl was dressed up as a little hooker and the
boy as a gangsta? Could we please concentrate on the abuses
of power going on the administration and not the dress code
of family members of nominees?
\_ You people have no sense of humour.
\_ At least they didn't call anyone The White House dog, like
Limbaugh did back when Chelsea was in her awkward phase.
Limbaugh did back when Chelsea was in her dog phase. |
| 2005/8/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38916 Activity:nil |
8/1 People keep talking about "BushCo" but is he actually a CFO
or chairman of something? I'm not talking about Cheney/Halliburton
but Bush/Some-other-real-company. ok thx.
\_ Motd will not do your homework for you. But here's a hint.
google for "ceo president"
\_ Nope, no evidence of him running a Halliburton-like company,
nothing of the scale or the threat. I only find info that
he was a failing CEO at insignificant companies. No connection
to Walmart or huge threatening corporations. This BushCo
phrase is catchy but false. It should be updated on factcheck.
\_ You're an idiot. Motd is disappointed, but not surprised.
You will be forgiven if you can show you were in Jr. High
in 2000. |
| 2005/8/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38902 Activity:kinda low |
7/31 Btw, how are those charges against Rove coming along? I haven't been
following the news lately.
\_ Everything is speculation at this point, with no big revelations
after the story about the Air Force One memo and so forth. Either
Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury are much better at controlling leaks
than Kenneth Starr was, or there isn't much going on.
\_ Reporters covering it say the former.
\_ Bush bashers are failing. Democrats are fucked and Republicans
are winning: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/bushbashingfizzles
are winning: http://lin.kz/?vprls
are winning: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/bushbashingfizzles
\_ is US News a conservative news source?
\_ Duhhh...
\_ Strength through Purity! Purity through Faith!
\_ Stupidity through Partisanship!
\_ Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Partei!
\_ Yeah, that 43% approval rating is just knockin' em dead!
\_ Faith Based Politics. Actual results don't matter, just
faith in your leader.
\_ Commodisation of news-- if Rove reports are not selling, move on.
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/fellows/papers02-03/shaw.pdf
http://lin.kz/?i3myr
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/fellows/papers02-03/shaw.pdf |
| 2005/7/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:38886 Activity:high |
7/29 To the Japanese imperialist/asian nationalist troll (I'm so proud that
my troll farm finally has a little friend for chicom troll, I was
getting worried): They lost. -John
\_ yeah and you thick skinned white men still don't get why you're
bombed and attacked and hated and jihad'ed and so on so forth.
\_ Here, let me take a stab at this: US is (for the time being at
least) the top dog in the geopolitical dog pile, and also
supports Israel. If you think it has anything to do with 'lack
of sensitivity' then I have to wonder what deluded idyllic
closet *you* came out of. Grow up, son -- the world doesn't
revolve around your hurt feelings.
\_ Ah, ok, now we're getting somewhere, I wasn't sure what your
point was, exactly. So you are equating a racist, imperialistic
regime's expansionist policies based on perceived American
aggression with the justified indiscriminate violence perpetrated
against civilians by a few ideologically exploited thugs who
are just as wont to murder their own "people" and oppress
infidels and women as a response to repeated supposed slights
committed against a primitive, barbaric "culture" that has never
undergone a renaissance, never ever consider a tiny measure of
introspection about why it is economically and socially failing?
You know, I'm the first to try and look for and analyze faults
in my own society's internal and international workings-as I've
stated before, maybe this makes me a bit naive. You, on the
other hand, are a cranky, ill-educated cretin. Oh, and I'll make
sure to inform Condi about the "white men" thing. I'm sure it
sounded good on a flyer on Sproul plaza. -John |
| 2005/7/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38884 Activity:kinda low 50%like:39576 |
7/29 CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll:
Bush approval ratings hit lowest point of tenure
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-29-gallup-poll_x.htm
\_ BUT THE GALLUP POLL IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
\_ Although this is on http://usatoday.com, it's not anywhere on http://CNN.com yet
... I guess they'll post it Friday night / Saturday morning ...
how lucky for Dubya! (not that he's the type to watch the polls
anyway -- God Bless!)
\_ Oh wow, in the span of an hour, http://usatoday.com already moved the
link from the front page and buried it. Can you find the link?
Did some political genius recognize the unfortunate timing of
"The majority of Americans hate you" and "I'm going around
the congressional body and appoint Bolton anyway"?
\_ Erm, it's still on the front page, in the Washington/Politics
section
\_ heh, they've been moving it around
I just submitted the http://CNN.com link to http://drudgereport.com,
wonder how long that'll be
\_ He's a lame duck President. Why do you obsess over his poll
numbers? He obviously doesn't care or he'd be out in public
every week stumping for his programs like it was a campaign.
Find something interesting to obsess about. |
| 2005/7/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38874 Activity:nil |
7/28 Enter a creative headline for the following picture, I'll start.
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_374.html
\_ Small brain, small TV
\_ This happens when your entertainment budget goes to the war
\_ It took him 2 minutes before he realized it's a microwave.
\_ How do I make the remote put NASCAR back on? |
| 2005/7/25-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38808 Activity:nil |
7/25 Pollution fighting concrete, &c.
http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,68282,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6
\_ Trees have been doing the same thing for a long long time.
\_ Yeah, but we seem to be chopping down a LOT of them in
favor of concrete.
\_ "Encouraged by such results, the European Union last year earmarked
$2.27 billion for a project to develop "smart" construction
materials that would break down nitrogen oxides and other toxic
substances, such as benzene."
You think the Bush admin. would ever do something like that? It's
a great move for both economic, environmental, and public health
reasons. But there's no lobby that greases their palms, so it
would never happen in the US.
\_ We believe in this crazy thing called the 'free market'. If
people want this and will pay for it then it will be done.
7/24
34 threads, 780 lines, 157 replies, 22.9 lines/thread, 4.6 replies/thread
stddev: 28.0 5.9
\_ Free market doesn't work for things like basic
infrastructures. Take public transit for example. The
benefits are great, but the public needs to spend
billions of dollars and wait over 1-2 decades before
economic paybacks. In today's world, if you can't
make huge profits within 2-3 years, you're out. So what
happens when you privatize public transit? They look
for things that give you immediate paybacks, like
cutting back on the frequency of trains, automation,
etc. However, they are reluctant to expand more areas
because the investment is enormous, and there is
no immediate payback. Sure, free market makes everything
more efficient and more profitable, but what about the
original long term goals, which is infrastructure for
everyone to benefit from?
\_ Funny how people equate our car-based system with the
free market. I sure didn't choose to have my tax dollars
used to either pay for excess roads and suburban sprawl
or to bail out shitty car companies again and again.
This car-centered nightmare we have turned our society into
has nothing to do with the free market. It's socialism,
with the government doling out welfare to the auto
manufacturers and their minions. A true free market
solution *or* a socialist solution for the general public
instead of for Detroit would be preferable to the current
idiocy.
\_ What exactly would a true free market or complete
socialist solution entail? Please elaborate.
\_ The true free market solution would involve privately
owned toll roads maintained with no help from the
government competing with privately owned rail lines
with no help or intereference from the government.
A socialist solution that benefits humans instead
of bloodsucking billionaires from detroit would
be based mostly on mass transit, with emphasis on
encouraging developement in a walking and biking
friendly way. Both of these sound better than the
"we're all happy whores for detroit" system we
presently have. I think that car culture is wrongly
associated with the free market as a red herring to
decieve people into supporting their automotive
masters.
\_ Free market works when there is a plethora of
sources to choose from. If apple is really
expensive, then people can always buy oranges.
In the case of infrastructures like eletric
power, EVERYONE needs electricity and there
isn't enough competition to lower the price.
Didn't you take basic econ or experienced the
power crisis a few years ago? Free market works
for some things and doesn't for others
\_ Did I say the free market solution is always
the right choice? No, I didn't. My point
is not about free market vs. collective
sollutions, my point is about the evil of
car culture. No matter what economic system
you have, it still sucks to get kicked in the
balls, and car culture is still stupid.
\_ I don't know why we're talking about
transportation and other infrastructure, but I
believe the free market will provide better
building materials if people want them. Witness
what has happened with the supply/demand for
organic farming. |
| 2005/7/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38780 Activity:nil |
7/22 Did the "moderate" delete the main Plame thread again, or was it the
guy who was yelling a lot?
\_ Yelling guy is probably freaking out about this:
http://csua.org/u/cti (nytimes.com)
and probably this:
http://csua.org/u/ctj (bloomberg.com)
and most likely this:
http://csua.org/u/ctk (bloomberg.com)
But I'm sure more yelling will make him feel better.
\_ I was yelling about people quoting secondary sources to prove
their point. The URL's above don't bother me in the slightest.
-yelling guy
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aY51e404Lx_8&refer=us
\_ Why did the post get deleted when three much better, more
relevant URLs were posted? |
| 2005/7/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38776 Activity:nil |
7/22 Profile of Victor Hanson, a popular conservitive essayist:
http://www.hooverdigest.org/052/kay.html
\_ "...Hanson doesn't play so well with others. At a recent meeting
at Hoover, he strained to remain polite..." This sounds just
like a Conservative Bush lover in my lab. He is somewhat shy,
stubborn, and rude most of the time and doesn't get along with
anyone else. Fucking Neocons. |
| 2005/7/22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38772 Activity:insanely high |
7/22 Best 2 articles describing Plame Rove treason I've read so far, since
it is a confusing story. One political, one from inside ... One from
a Democrat, one from a Republican.
http://tinyurl.com/7qmra
\_ This falls to pieces with: "Another false claim is that Valerie sent
her husband on the mission to Niger." No one is claiming that Plame
sent him. The claim is that she **RECOMMENDED** him. The Senate
Intelligence Committee has a memo in her handwriting proving this.
And of course this: "The President has flip flopped and backed away
from his promise to fire anyone at the White House implicated in a
leak." What a putz.
\_ From above URL:
"The Senate Intelligence Report is frequently cited by
Republican partisans as 'proof' that Valerie sent her husband to
Niger because she sent a memo describing her husband's
qualifications to the Deputy Division Chief. Several news
personalities, such as Chris Matthews and Bill O'Reilly continue
\_ Neither of which are R's AFAIK (but I
don't watch either of them). Show me
the quotes from R partisans.
\_ To paraphrase someone else on the
motd, you've provided a great
demonstration of "being obtuse."
\_ Nah, it's just hard to read
something which sounds
intelligent yet disputes a key
point which you thought was
100% true.
\_ Read carefully, dude, it's ALL
THERE: The addendum in the Senate
report was Republican, the
spinmeisters (not necessarily
Republican) quote the addendum.
\_ I DON'T BELIEVE THIS. Is that
too hard to understand? I think
this guy is spinning, and I want
to see what he claims to be
quoting. This whole issue has
been more heat than light and
everytime I get claims like this
I ask for source documents.
EVERY FUCKING TIME THE RESPONSE
HAS BEEN SILENCE. So if he can't
back up his claim, or you can't,
then SHUT THE FUCK UP.
\_ Is "SHUT THE FUCK UP",
"EVERY FUCKING TIME", and
"I DON'T BELIEVE THIS"
supposed to be more light
than heat?
Besides, your post, "Neither
of which are R's AFAIK ...
Show me the quotes from R
partisans" was completely
answered by the the
"Read carefully, dude"
response.
Your emotional response seems
to be on another topic
entirely.
\_ Repeating what's in the
quote sure isn't. If you
have a source, let us know.
\_ All caps boy deleted my
question, but I'll ask him
again. Do you think typing
in all caps helps your case?
\_ No, I didn't delete your
question.
to repeat this nonsense as proof. What the Senate Intelligence
Committee does not include in the report is the fact that
Valerie's boss had asked her to write a memo outlining her
husband's qualifications for the job. She did what any good
employee does; she gave her boss what he asked for."
\_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that confirms this.
From danh's link:
Seven months after the appointment of the special counsel, in
July 2004, the Republican-dominated Senate Select Committee on
Intelligence issued its report on flawed intelligence leading to
the Iraq war. The blame for failure was squarely put on the CIA
for "groupthink." (The Republicans quashed a promised second
report on political pressure on the intelligence process.) The
three-page addendum by the ranking Republicans followed the now
well-worn attack lines: "The plan to send the former ambassador
to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA
employee." The CIA subsequently issued a statement, as reported
by New York Newsday and CNN, that the Republican senators'
conclusion about Plame's role was wholly inaccurate. But the
Washington Post's Susan Schmidt reported only the Republican
senators' version, writing that Wilson was "specifically
recommended for the mission by his wife, a CIA employee,
contrary to what he has said publicly," in a memo she wrote.
Schmidt quoted a CIA official in the senators' account saying
that Plame had "offered up" Wilson's name. Plame's memo, in
fact, was written at the express directive of her superiors two
days before Wilson was to come to Langley for his meeting to
describe his qualifications in a standard protocol to receive
"country clearance." Unfortunately, Schmidt's article did not
reflect this understanding of routine CIA procedure. The CIA
officer who wrote the memo that originally recommended Wilson
for the mission--who was cited anonymously by the senators as
the only source who said that Plame was responsible--was deeply
upset at the twisting of his testimony, which was not public,
and told Plame he had said no such thing. CIA spokesman Bill
Harlow told Wilson that the Republican Senate staff never
contacted him for the agency's information on the matter.
Key words:
(partisan) "addendum by the ranking Republicans",
"CIA subsequently issued a statement ... Republican senators'
conclusion about Plame's role was wholly inaccurate", "CIA
officer ... that originally recommended Wilson for the mission
... was deeply upset at the twisting of his testimony ... told
Plame he had said no such thing"
\_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that confirms this.
\_ Show me the statement from Plame's boss that disputes this.
\_ He makes the claim about Plame's boss. Show me the
claim or SHUT THE FUCK UP.
\_ Why so angry?
\_ Unfortunately, her boss is probably covert as well.
How CONVENIIEENT ... I know ... but we do have:
http://csua.org/u/ctc (Newsday)
"A senior intelligence official ... said [Plame] did not
recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment."
LA Times (7/15/04, article archived):
"A senior intelligence official said the CIA supports
Wilson's version: 'Her bosses say she did not initiate the
idea of her husband going. They asked her if he'd be
willing to go, and she said yes,' the official said."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30842-2003Dec25
"CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR
document [used to claim that Plame suggested Joe Wilson's
name], the official said, because the [CIA] agency officer
identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in
arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the
meeting."
\_ And the White House has flip flopped on whether they would
fire anyone who leaked Plame's name to a reporter. First they
said they would, now Bush says only if they have broken
the law.
\_ fyi, an old friend of mine who's a loyal Republican voter
wrote in his blog that, after the flip-flop on Rove, he
has decided that his vote for Dubya in 2004 was a mistake.
\_ The article falls apart? Try reading it again!
http://tinyurl.com/dx3ok
\_ I really like the first story, where the author also says that he
voted for Dubya in 2000.
\_ Countdown to someone mentioning Clinton in 5, 4, 3...
\_ Author of first story also said he voted for Dubya because he
understood what the meaning of "is" was
\_ Obviously you've never served.
\_ Are you a troll? Do you have any understanding of the
effect of the methamphetamine trade on southern Michigan?
\_ obviously you think your trolls aren't that stupid
\_ I bet BUD DAY makes _excellent_ trolls.
\_ BUD DAY! |
| 2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38742 Activity:nil |
7/20 http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/20/bush.grenade/index.html Police officer killed during arrest of individual suspected of throwing live grenade at Dubya during his speech in the former Soviet republic of Georgia \_ Go Scotland Yard! \_ Did you mean to post in the London thread? |
| 2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38740 Activity:low |
7/20 Not that it wasn't obvious or anything, but Bush really was "wagging
the court"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=IJWRAX1A74E9
(rich irony in that this article is based on anonymous sources)
\_ Hate to channel freerepublic, but only Ed Rollins is quoted as
a Republican, and he doesn't really say "Part of the reason Bush
nominated fast was to distract from Rove", he just says,
(paraphrasing) "Because of the nomination, attention will be
distracted from Rove". No further mention is made of "Republicans
familiar with administration strategy". This article is utter and
complete crap currently. -moderate/liberal
\_ "...said two administration officials, who spoke on the condition
they not be named. The officials said those plans changed
because Rove has become a focus of Fitzgerald's interest and of
news accounts about the matter."
\_ Shit! I blame the tiny type. Or did they update the story
on me?? I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms.L
\_ Does anyone see the irony of leaks coming out about scandal
involving leaks?
\_ Did anyone read the line in the OP about "rich irony?" |
| 2005/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38739 Activity:nil |
6/19 http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1108389946956 \_ Why do people not know that July=7 Supreme Court choice John C. Roberts Jr. reported by multiple sources is sharp, but will probably vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. I say there should be no filibuster attempt. -liberal/moderate \_ Roe v. Wade *should* be overturned. And then (or even prior) congress should pass laws about privacy, etc. \_ If you're a strict constructionist, then you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. On the other hand, if you're Sandra Day, you would uphold it. Which is more valid? You got me. \_ The magic number is 50. Assuming everything equal, he'll be around for the next 30-odd years. \_ When a Democrat is President, he or she can also nominate a sharp 50-year-old with little in judicial opinions written down but believed to be as liberal as you can get, but also one who has stated that they support being impartial over being predictable. \_ Only if someone on SCOTUS dies or retires during his presidency. Cf. Clinton. \_ "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. ... There's nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent." \_ I also read an article today that said he was speaking for a client, and not from his personal view, when advocating for Roe v. Wade to be overturned. \_ Does it mean anything that he's a Harvard man? \- no. HLS is one of the largest law schools in the country. who he clerked for might mean more ... what ever that means. half the sup ct went to harvard. \_ He clerked for Sith Lord Rheinquist. \_ Of course it means something. You are naive. It even means more that he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. It is not a coincidence that half the supreme court and 10% of Congress went to HLS. Seven US Presidents are Harvard grads. This is how the upper class perpetuates itself. \_ Souter graduated Harvard undergrad magna cum laude, and also graduated Harvard Law. Appointed by Bush I in 1990. Scalia is also a Harvard Law grad, as well as Breyer and Kennedy. \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel. -- ilyas |
| 2005/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38737 Activity:nil |
6/19 NY Times with apparently accurate (non-biased) background article
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
on Roberts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/politics/politicsspecial1/20judge.html
"On the other side of the political equation, he is likely to be
confirmed, at least with far less trouble than many of the other
candidates who had been listed as possible Bush choices. Even as
Democrats were resisting many of Mr. Bush's other appeals court
candidates with filibusters, Mr. Roberts was approved by a vote of 16
to 3 in the Judiciary Committee and confirmed without a roll call vote
on May 9, 2003." (you can bet the 3 no's were for the abortion thing)
Filibuster at your own peril. -liberal/moderate |
| 2005/7/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38717 Activity:nil 71%like:38725 |
6/20 Do you soda liberals agree Larry Kramer is a homosexual liar?
\_ who is he, why should we care? unless you're mimicking the WH's
favorite distraction strategy.
\_ If you don't know I am not interested in your opinion.
I am jut wondering if you blindly support liberal, like the
"I lurve George Bush" guy blindly supports Bush.
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
\_ I am pretty sure the guy is married. What does his sexual
orientation have to do with anything anyway? -soda liberal
\_ Some liberals could not stand to see Larry Kramer discussed
so they are changing to Tucker, who I dont like. |
| 2005/7/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38720 Activity:nil |
6/19 NY Times with apparently accurate (non-biased) background article
on Roberts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/politics/politicsspecial1/20judge.html
"On the other side of the political equation, he is likely to be
confirmed, at least with far less trouble than many of the other
candidates who had been listed as possible Bush choices. Even as
Democrats were resisting many of Mr. Bush's other appeals court
candidates with filibusters, Mr. Roberts was approved by a vote of 16
to 3 in the Judiciary Committee and confirmed without a roll call vote
on May 9, 2003." (you can bet the 3 no's were for the abortion thing)
Filibuster at your own peril. -liberal/moderate |
| 2005/7/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38712 Activity:moderate |
6/19 http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1108389946956 Supreme Court choice John C. Roberts Jr. reported by multiple sources is sharp, but will probably vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. I say there should be no filibuster attempt. -liberal/moderate \_ Roe v. Wade *should* be overturned. And then (or even prior) congress should pass laws about privacy, etc. \_ If you're a strict constructionist, then you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. On the other hand, if you're Sandra Day, you would uphold it. Which is more valid? You got me. \_ The magic number is 50. Assuming everything equal, he'll be around for the next 30-odd years. \_ When a Democrat is President, he or she can also nominate a sharp 50-year-old with little in judicial opinions written down but believed to be as liberal as you can get, but also one who has stated that they support being impartial over being predictable. \_ Only if someone on SCOTUS dies or retires during his presidency. Cf. Clinton. \_ "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. ... There's nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent." \_ I also read an article today that said he was speaking for a client, and not from his personal view, when advocating for Roe v. Wade to be overturned. \_ Does it mean anything that he's a Harvard man? \- no. HLS is one of the largest law schools in the country. who he clerked for might mean more ... what ever that means. half the sup ct went to harvard. \_ He clerked for Sith Lord Rheinquist. \_ Of course it means something. You are naive. It even means more that he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. It is not a coincidence that half the supreme court and 10% of Congress went to HLS. Seven US Presidents are Harvard grads. This is how the upper class perpetuates itself. \_ Souter graduated Harvard undergrad magna cum laude, and also graduated Harvard Law. Appointed by Bush I in 1990. Scalia is also a Harvard Law grad, as well as Breyer and Kennedy. \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel. -- ilyas \_ And now they want to make Souter's house into a hotel. -- ilyas |
| 2005/7/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38710 Activity:nil |
7/19 Biased source, but Rove may not have told the FBI about Matt Cooper
at all in 2003:
http://csua.org/u/crt (prospect.org) |
| 2005/7/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38700 Activity:kinda low |
7/19 "My answer hasn't changed in 24 hours" seems like Bush
is starting to realize no one trusts him anymore.
\_ I'm glad you learned nothing from 2004 Election.
\_ What did he not learn? Are you the "there's only room for one
party in America" guy?
\_ The lesson is that it doesn't matter how corrupt, dishonest
or dangerous the ruling party is because God wants Bush
to rule, so get used to it.
\_ No, it's that dumbasses like you aren't worth the time.
If you want to talk rationally we can do that, but it's
become increasingly difficult to talk to anyone who's
rational.
\_ Heh. -- ilyas
\_ I wonder if he will see the error in his sentence,
although he speaks more truth than he realizes.
\_ Oh, I'm responding to vitriol with vitriol. I
know what I wrote and the potential irony.
\_ Acknowledging your stupidity doesn't make
you any less stupid or any less a part of
the problem. You seem to be missing this. |
| 2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38682 Activity:kinda low |
7/16 Religion is strong. Faith is hot. A time of doubt for Atheists:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/atimeofdoubtforatheists (latimes)
\_ No god worth believing in would have allowed such wankery to be
published.
\_ It's clear to me many years ago that the liberals are losing
and the conservatives are kicking serious ass. When you can't
beat them, you join them. From now on, I am claiming to be
"spiritual" and I'm going to register as a Republican, short
of actually voting for one. I will convert to Conservatism and
repent later. -disillusioned motd troll
\_ Cool, go for it. In the meantime I'll pick up your share of
laughing at all the fucking morons. -John
\_ Who is Faith?
\_ http://www.inbedwithfaith.com (NWS)
\_ Someone on the motd is very clearly a boob-man. |
| 2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38681 Activity:very high |
7/18 http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/29/novak.cia http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml Above is the original http://CNN.com story and Novak's follow-up column from two years ago. If we assume that Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent, it would appear that the main people to blame are Novak and his unofficial CIA source. Novak said, "According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative and not in charge of undercover operators". This is technically not true -- Plame was a NOC. The view of Novak's unofficial CIA source was that Plame worked in the U.S. most of the time as an analyst, and that Plame was also well known in Washington (probably gossipped about on the "cocktail circuit" as Joe Wilson's hot wife the CIA agent), so she therefore wasn't covert. This was a mistake by Novak and his CIA source, even with all of Novak's excuses, since the CIA did erect an entire front company for Plame and the _official_ CIA source told him not to use her name. Novak considerably broadened the number of people who knew of Valerie Plame the CIA agent: from people on the DC cocktail circuit, to anyone interested in the WMD controversy in Iraq -- which means a whole lot of people on the left and right. Again, I am assuming Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent. (I am purposely going to ignore the http://CNN.com story's lead sentence: "while [Novak] learned the identity of a CIA operative from administration officials, there was 'no great crime' and that he was not the recipient of a planned leak".) \_ The public ain't buying it: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=949950 \_ What does the poll have to do with the post? \_ Where is it proven that Plame was NOC at the time (or recently)? The Washington Times says that she was "outed" a decade ago: http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040722-115439-4033r.htm \_ The Washington Times is a mouthpiece for the GOP. \_ It can't be proven (by anyone here), but when the CIA asks the DoJ to launch a criminal investigation, I defer to their knowledge of the situation. And, really, washington times? \_ Oh shut the fuck up. \_ You think WT is a reputable news source? Leave now. \_ This is the same CIA that said there was WMD in Iraq? And did you defer to their knowledge then? \_ We don't know what the CIA said about Iraq's WMD. We know what the President said they said. And the inquiry into that transaction, which was supposed to happen, still hasn't. \_ I'm not the guy you're reponding to, but Duelfer's report pretty much says the CIA screwed it all up. There was also supposed to be an investigation into how the Administration used the CIA's screwed up intelligence, but that investigation didn't happen. \_ The President deferred to the CIA's judgment that WMDs were in Iraq, or at least, that's what the story is. \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..." \_ Which adds nothing. Where is it factually stated that Plame was NOC at any recent time before Novak's column? \_ It's likely not. It would be dangerous and possibly illegal to state that openly. See Blitzer's interview with Wilson. \_ No, it responds to the statement, "says that she was 'outed' a decade ago". As for "proven", it's not yet proven, but the preponderance of evidence is that it is so. This is addressed in my second post beginning, "The CIA's asking ..." later in this thread. \_ The Washington Times says Reverend Moon can cure teh gay. Ah, the joys of owning your own paper. \_ How do you know he can't? \_ It's likely not. It would be illegal to state that openly. See Blitzer's interview with Wilson. \_ 'Cos the first three mass weddings didn't stick. \_ sfchron response to this claim: "But the CIA didn't hesitate to forward the leak allegation to the Justice Department for possible prosecution. She operated a front company based in Boston and sometimes traveled overseas posing as a private energy analyst, yet she also had a desk at CIA's Langley headquarters. Some fellow agents who knew her as Val P. in training recall her proficiency with foreign languages and an AK-47, but she said her work as a spy was unknown to friends and neighbors." http://csua.org/u/cqu \_ Oh yeah, sfchron. That settles that argument. \_ Washington Times and NY Post have long, well-earned reputations for being rags. The SF Chron has a horrible writing style (and I hate it), but no one questions their journalistic integrity. \_ What? No one questions the SFComical's journalistic integrity? The other two have well-earned reputations as rags? I've barely read the NYP or WT but I've read the SFComical for years. Who exactly are these people that share this 'commonly accepted public perception' with you? Is there some web page I can find somewhere? thanks! \_ Yeah, uh, that's pretty funny. SF Chron is even worse than the LA "we only dig dirt on republican candidates" Times. -- ilyas \_ On what do you base this criticism of the L.A. Times? \_ LA Times went on record when Davis was running for governor saying they don't dig dirt on governor candidates. However, they sent most of their reporters to dig dirt on Arnold during the recall. This was a fairly big issue in LA at the time. -- ilyas \_ Can you find the URL? Even without the URL, I can tell you that what probably happened was that Davis's faults were all self-evident (look at the damn budget deficit), while Ahnold's escapades were all plausiably deniable ("oh, escapades were all plausibly deniable ("oh, it's all gossip and probably just happened when he was young and defining himself, and even if it were true, hey, it's Ahnold!"), so they sought to make his groping more evident to voters ("Yes, you are really electing someone who at the very least is a groper.") -L.A. resident and frequent L.A. Times reader who voted for Arnold anyway who voted for Arnold anyway, and will vote Ahnold out at the next opportunity since his performance has not been adequate (please don't ask me to compare to Davis -- it's like different varieties of "bad") \_ Does the blatant hypocrisy of that paper not bother you one bit, or do you just not believe me? -- ilyas \_ When the topic is Ahnold's groping, my opinion is that they did the right thing. Like I wrote before, Davis's faults were plain to all voters. Yes, I voted for someone I was pretty sure was a groper, and I knew that at the time I voted. I did so because Davis's failures could not be excused. When the topic is "blatant hypocrisy of that paper" in general, I dispute that there is a "blatant hypocrisy", but put the L.A. Times at the high-end of professional journalism. I consider myself a voracious consumer of all major Internet-accessible news outlets and referenced original sources (cia.gov) for the last five or so years. I've also been paying attention to the left- and right-wing blogs and forums. I, like Bill O'Reilly says he does, call things as I see them, preferring to identify things as accurate or inaccurate portrayals of the truth of the matter rather than "left-wing" or "right-wing". Of course, I could be totally wrong about the L.A. Times, just like I think O'Reilly doesn't get it right in many fundamental ways, but at that point it's just a matter of how solid your argument and facts are versus the other person's. \_ I think there are multiple levels of hypocrisy here. That LA Times covered Arnold's faults but not Davis' at the time of the recall is one problem (that Davis' faults were 'plain to see' is not really an excuse for a paper). But LA Times also did not dig dirt on Davis when Davis himself was running for office! And more, they claimed it was a matter of policy for them not to. The violation of their own stated policy is also hypocritical. -- ilyas \_ My contention is that Davis's problems had been well publicized, which made them widely acknowledged. They already dumped a shitload on Davis -- they just hadn't done so on Ahnold yet. Anyways, can you find the URLs? I occasionally find myself blaming a news outlet for some apparent problem but later realize that I misread what was written. \_ They were never plain to me. What were they, in your eyes? --scotsman \_ $x billion budget deficit, I forgot whether x was 21 or 40. I assume that was why Davis was voted out in such a big way -- that other people saw this ... \_ The important person here is former LA Times reporter Jill Stewart. See for instance: http://www.jillstewart.net/php/issues/issue1014.php -- ilyas \_ Thanks. I was reading that exact URL between when you posted Jill's name and when you posted the URL. This sums up my argument though: The L.A. Times staff has a bias against gropers being elected governor of California. This bias is excusable in my book. (Also, I know this undercuts my position, but I had been pretty pissed about the groping articles coming out two weeks for the election, but I've since changed my mind.) \_ Your links says: "Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a Moscow spy" Umm... Russia intelligence may know about or have guesses about a great number of our secret operatives, as we likely have similar knowledge or guesses of theirs. Neither party knowing that information is the same as "public knowledge." \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..." \_ The CIA's asking the DoJ to conduct a criminal investigation is the strongest evidence that Plame was NOC at the time. C'mon -- you have a special prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, bugging Dubya, Cheney, Rove, and Libby after all. Here is a non-anonymous column written by a former CIA agent: http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340 "A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became a non-official cover officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. If caught in that status she would have been executed." This is weaker than the fact there is an investigation going on now, but stronger than as if it had come from an anoymous author. \_ You know, Johnson was doing well until he started bashing Bush. \_ Let's ignore what Johnson wrote about Bush and focus on the topic at hand: What do you think about the truth of the claim (that Plame was NOC for a while and was still NOC when Novak published his column) itself? Do consider that there is an ongoing investigation with a grand jury and testimony from VIPs taking place right now. \_ Well, should I ignore what Johnson wrote about Plume's NOC status also? Are Johnson's claims re Plume credible after his partisan rant? Do I trust the CIA to know more about its employees than about Iraq? Is the CIA Justice referral more motivated by politics? My answers: yes, no, yes, don't know. \_ While you answered four questions you volunteered yourself, you forgot to answer the question that's the topic at hand in this particular thread: "What do you think about the truth of the claim (that Plame was NOC for a while and was still NOC when Novak published his column) itself? Do consider that there is an ongoing investigation with a grand jury and testimony from VIPs taking place right now." \_ What's the evidence that she was or wasn't a NOC at the time? \_ Search this thread for "strongest evidence". It's in the post right before you say, "You know, Johnson was doing well until he started bashing Bush." \_ And I asked "Is the CIA Justice referral more motivated by politics?". "Don't know," I answered. BTW, I see that you are abandoning Johnson whom you were originally touting as evidence. \_ Ah, but Novak called her an "operative" in his column two years ago. Now he claims he just knew she was an "analyst." If so, why did he call her an operative, when he good and well knows the difference. Novak is lying to try and cover for Rove. http://csua.org/u/cr2 |
| 2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38676 Activity:high |
7/18 Bush says any "criminal" involvement in leak will lead to firing;
seriously, how is this not a flipflop?
\_ You apparently haven't been paying attention. Maybe you can suggest
why you think it is a flipflop?
\_ On the contrary, I've been paying attention carefully. His
mouthpiece, McClellan, said, in a press conference that Bush
said that anyone involved in the case would no longer work for
the administration; Bush has now added the word "criminally."
If this is not a flipflop, is it not at the very least a
"nuanced" position?
\_ flip flop: f(x) = -x
nuance: f(x) = x +/- epsilon
\_ In light of the official quote below, what is your
call? Flip flop, nuance, or in-between?
\_ f(involved) = criminally involved
Certainly not a flip flop. Nuanced? Is "criminally"
bigger than epsilon? Probably. I'd call it a
refinement, where f(x) = x +/- delta, and delta < x.
\_ If this were a Democratic administration, they'd
be screaming for heads to roll.
\_ Shrug. The Democrats are screaming for heads to
roll. Why do you persist in thinking there is
any difference between R and D behavior?
\_ The "it" was "outing a covert CIA agent". That's a
crime, so if anyone is convicted, we'll know if they
were involved. Seems consistent to me.
\_ Why didn't anyone bother to check whether Plame was
a CIA NOC at the time? Rove does have Top Secret
clearance.
\_ If Rove heard it from a reporter, he didn't get it
through secret means.
\_ Even if this bullshit is true, he passed on the
info to Cooper, according to Cooper's testimony
\_ Am I on crazy pills or are you suggessting
that Rove got his info from a reporter, not
that he gave info to a reporter?
\_ That's what Rove said--that he heard it from
Novak and mentioned it in his email to
Cooper.
\_ Which, of course, directly contradicts
everything Novak has said on the matter.
It's amazing what happens when you get
this many habitual liars together.
\_ Um, no it doesn't. Please show how
this contradicts Novak.
\_ "I didn't dig it out, it was given
to me. They thought it was
significant. They gave me the name
and I used it." --Bob Novak to
Newsweek, July 22, 2003.
\_ Also see http://CNN.com link in new
thread at top of motd.
\_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
Q No, but you say that --
MR. McCLELLAN: -- that suggests White House involvement. There
are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The President
has set high standards, the highest of standards for people in
his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his
administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest
standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was
involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration. |
| 2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38674 Activity:kinda low |
7/16 You guys are screwed! Loser, ha ha ha ha -conservative
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050718/ap_on_re_us/party_money
\_ What's their stock symbol?
\_ REPU
\_ TWAT -John
\_ FUCU |
| 2005/7/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:38669 Activity:nil |
7/16 Rove: "I've already said too much."
http://csua.org/u/cqf (Yahoo! news)
\_ Yeah? So? The President has been doing whatever he pleases and
nothing touches him or his staff. What's the point for fighting... |
| 2005/7/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38642 Activity:nil |
7/15 Rove's not Bush's brain. I've seen Bush's brain, and Rove's not it.
Cheney is: http://csua.org/u/cqa (antiwar blog)
Speculation that Fitzgerald will be after Cheney's office, next, as
the source of the leak to Rove.
\_ Too bad--of all the evil hairy trolls in the Bush administration I
kind of like Dick best--he's a fat evil bastard, but at least he's
an unapologetic fat evil bastard who's reasonably honest about his
fat evil bastardness. You kind of have to appreciate that. -John |
| 2005/7/15-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38641 Activity:high |
7/15 Between the several Rove announcements over the last
few days it is not looking good for the Dems.
Who Exposed Secret Agent Plame?
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp -jblack
\_ In contrast, I think things are just heating up, and I wouldn't
say "the Dems" -- I'd say anyone who's anti-Rove-leak is pretty
pissed.
\_ Justin Black, Bush encouraged supporters of the war to hang a flag
this weekend. I have a better idea. Why don't the Americans who
support the war enlist in the armed services today? It's clear
that our military is overstretched and our forces in Iraq are too
few. It seems to me that you people would rather fight the media
than the insurgents.
\_ It's interesting you have linked to an article from
clifford may, one of the guys who's claimed to have known
for the last 50 years that valerie plame was a secret
agent. - danh
\_ well I guess as NR articles go, that wasn't too terrible.
\_ Does you ever wake up in the middle of the night
and realize that Karl Rove and his zombie army are a bunch
of shitheads?
\_ So was Novak just the patsy?
AP poll, July 11-13: 42% of Americans approve of Dubya's job as
President, 56% disapprove. 40% approve of Dubya's handling of
Iraq, 59% disapprove. http://csua.org/u/cqc
\_ You just don't get it. I voted for Bush because I liked his
personal qualities. Unlike Kerry, Bush is straightforward
\_ You just don't get it. I voted for Bush because he is a white
Christian man. Unlike Kerry, Bush is straightforward
and never looks down on anybody. He is not a snob. He is not
French. Most importantly, he is pro-life, religious, and is
tough on terrorists. There's a great sense of connection I
have with Bush that I just can't explain, but as long as it
exists, I trust the President to always do what is right.
In the end, doing right thing is more important than doing
what is popular. Darn it, I think I may have been trolled.
\_ Are you familiar with the concept of a "cult of personality?"
\_ Hi. You don't know what a cult of personality is. -- ilyas
\_ Explain it, then. How is it different than pp's blind
hero worship?
\_ I am not getting into this. Read some things on
existing personality cults, and think about it.
-- ilyas
\_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
"Cult of personality or personality cult is a
term for what is perceived to be excessive
adulation of a single living leader."
Again... how was my question to the blind Bush
worshipper above unwarranted?
\_ Listen, mental giant, since you insist, I will
spell it out for you. He doesn't worship Bush.
He likes Bush. Like inner city kids like
Michael Jordan. Neither Bush nor Michael Jordan
are perfect by any means, but to say they enjoy
a cult of personality like Stalin or Mao is
beyond moronic. Excessive adulation of Bush
would be like giant portraits of him hanging
everywhere, shrines in people's living rooms,
etc. Cult of personality is not a relationship
between a single person and a leader, it's
a relationship between a people and a leader.
This 'liking of Bush' that you find so
distasteful is a similar thing to that famous
quote by Nina Burleigh saying she will happily
give Clinton a blowjob just because he kept the
woman's right to choose. Is that cult of
personality too? Give me a fucking break.
-- ilyas
\_ Uhhhh, chill man... you've been trolled?
\_ Who gave Britney Spears a soda account?
\_ jblack, can you EVER point a url that is not of conservative
bias? Can you post anything other than http://chronwatch.com,
http://federalist.com, http://foxnews.com, http://freerepublic.com, http://nationalreview.com,
http://newsmax.com, http://taemag.com, http://tysknews.com, http://worldnetdaily.com, etc?
I'd like to know. And if you don't think these are of
conservative bias, check again: <DEAD>slantcheck.org<DEAD>
\_ For once jblack has posted a nationalreview url without
claiming it's impartial or balanced or nice on liberals.
I think he should be exiled to Disneyland though if he
keeps posting worldnetdaily/newsmax urls though
\_ Which famous conservative authored the following quote:
'I know reporters and I know liberals, like I know every square inch
'I know reporters and I know liberals like every square inch
of my glorious naked body.'? -- ilyas
\_ That's Rush Limbaugh. I LOVE RUSH LIMBAUGH! He's funny.
\_ He's also a druggie. Go druggies!
\_ I consider myself liberal and every minute NOT spent
contemplating Rush Limbaugh's naked body is a quality minute. |
| 2005/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38631 Activity:nil |
7/14 Rehnquist to public: "Nah, bitch!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050715/ap_on_go_su_co/rehnquist
\_ Sounds to me like he might not survive to the end of Bush
presidency though. |
| 2005/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38630 Activity:moderate |
7/14 If Rove did nothing wrong please explain why the White House isn't
shouting out their love for him right now? Gee, funny how waiting
to see how the wind blows makes you look bad.
\_ If Rove is found guilty, then the Dems would make fun of Reps
for supporting him. So it's probably better to be quiet. However,
if Rove is NOT found guilty, then the the silence would work
to Reps' advantage-- they're more gentlemen like. Also it would
just make Dems seem stupid, when he's not found guilty, which
I think will be the most likely outcome.
\_ So they think there is a decent chance he will be found guilty?
\_ They probably just think there is a decent chance he'll
be tossed for being caught red-handed doing something
unscrupulous while blowing someone's wife's cover - not
necessarily found guilty.
That is, unless you believe all the talk about Rove not
really leaking Plame's identity but merely confirming it for
snoopy reporters.
\_ It seems to be a pretty standard thing for the Bush admin to
keep quiet in crisis. It seems to work well for them.
\_ Yeah, true, imagine if they'd actually made rousing passionate
speeches instead of cowering in bunkers the morning of 9/11.
\_ If Rove did something wrong, how come he hasn't been charged yet?
\_ patience, grasshopper. |
| 2005/7/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38623 Activity:high |
7/14 ok conservative pigfuckers, why does it matter whether valerie
plame authorized her husband going to Niger to report
selling yellowcake? How does this affect whether Rove should
be punished for revealing she has been a deep undercover
agent for the last 20 years?
\_ Because everything is politics. There is no right and wrong.
If you make everyone look equally sleazy, you can get away with
anything.
\_ there's an article on Salon I think today from sid blumenthal
saying that Wilson's wife never authorized the trip, and in any
case was not in a position to even authorize it. also I agree
that who cares who authorized the trip? Does anyone remember
Ed "pig biting mad" Anger? - danh
\_ They don't care if anyone actually believes. They're just trying
to spread FUD. Don't buy into it.
\_ I'm not a pigfucker, but I'll give it a go. No one is saying that
Plame authorized the trip. My understanding is that Rove was
saying to Cooper, "don't pay attention to this Wilson guy, because
he only got the trip because his wife's in the CIA". We now know
that Plame *did* recommend her husband. I've never seen his report
(which Wilson claims showed that Iraq had not been looking for U in
Niger). The point is, Wilson has already been shown to be a lying
sleezeball. It doesn't look like Rove really did anything wrong.
\_ Who cares about Wilson. No matter what happened (And I think
your whole Wilson was lieing is full of shit.) Rove LEAKED
a covert CIA agent's cover. A covert CIA agent who was working
with preventing WMD proliferation. Rove leaked the name for
no reason other than to get back at someone. In the process he
also leaked a CIA cover company and destroyed other agent's
covers. Why are you trying to defend this?
\_ read http://tinyurl.com/8obkt . The article says "
wilson's wife did not authorize the trip." but like i said,
who cares who authorized the trip? - danh
\_ dan, use motdedit. you stomped on me.
\_ How often does it have to be said. Repeating it doesn't make
it true. What did he lie about? How does it feel to defend
someone who single-handedly demolished a CIA front company?
\_ You know what's really sad? Both you and pp are both just
regurgitating talking points drafted by someone else.
The Republicans are much better at this sort of Pravdaesque
manipulation, so I expect them to survive this quite nicely.
\_ you got me, I read the same stuff everyone else does.
It infuriates me when someone prints in the media the
exact polar opposite of what actually occured. For example
read in the Chronicle: http://tinyurl.com/c77w2
I am pretty sure Wilson's report said that Niger was not
selling yellowcake to Iraq. It's like the officers
beating Rodney King claiming they were beating the
crap out of him to help out his skin complexion. - danh
\_ Wilson, through his Congressional testimony that
contradicts his newspaper articles and quotes, has
already been proven a fraud. Even Kerry, who initially
appointed Wilson an advisor, backed away from him during
the election. What you likely have here is an attempt by the
Democrats and their media abettors to create a scandal
during an election season that has subsequently blown
up in their face. Of course time will tell.
Since Wilson had extensive business interests in Africa and
Middle East, including Niger, his wife's role in
his selection is very pertinent.
\_ did you read danh's link?
\_ What's most important though, is that each of these claims is
irrelevant.
irrelevant to the subject at hand. Rove outed a CIA agent.
It wouldn't matter if Joe Wilson was the seven-headed beast of
the apocalypse.
\_ Point out a lie. Please. Still waiting.
\_ So, I haven't been following this too closely, but everything
I've read seems to indicate that Rove did not actually leak
classified info. Saying 'X' works at the CIA, especially when
such fact is already known, is not a leak. It only became a
'leak' when it turned out that she was actually undercover at
the time, which apparently Rove didn't know. How can someone
leak info they don't know? Rove's actions in trying to
discredit Wilson, while not pure, are at least reasonable in
that Wilson is actually not very credible. I think that's the
only reason anyone cares about Wilson. I think danh's link was
the most balanced thing I've read though... -jrleek
\_ Did you actually read danh's link? Quote:
No, Rove didn't "reveal the name." But the law doesn't cite
that as a felony; it only specifies revealing the "identity" as
a crime. It says nothing about a "name." Rove revealed "Joe
Wilson's wife." That qualifies as an "identity." By the way,
Plame did not go by the name of Plame, but Wilson -- in other
words, Mrs. Wilson, or "Joe Wilson's wife." Rove seemed to know
that much -- her identity."
Also, what do you mean by "especially when such fact is
already known"? Are you saying it was widely known that
Plame was a NOC working in weapons of mass destruction for CIA?
I mean, it certainly became widely known she was a CIA agent
working WMDs after Novak's article.
\_ The law also requires you to have learned the identity and/or
status from classified sources, and have the intent to expose
the agent. It appears now that Rove learned that Wilson's
wife was in the CIA from Novak (not a classified source) and
that his purpose was to warn Cooper away from trusting Wilson
as a source because he got the Niger job not because of
qualifications but because of family ties. No, Plame didn't
/approve/ the job (she didn' thave the authority), but she
/did/ present Wilson's name as a candidate (which Wilson
denies but which has been proven in a memo found by the Senate
Intelligence Committee). -emarkp
\_ I think you're chewing on RNC talking points this morning.
What would make Wilson more qualified? He served as a
diplomat in Niger, Togo, Burundi, South Africa,
Gabon, and Sao Tome, plus Iraq. The CIA claims that
Wilson was chosen based on his experiences, not because
of who his wife is. - danh
\_ Well, the CIA _did_ screw up the pre-war intel, so
we know how reliable they are....
\_ I don't think he was unqualified. But that's what Rove
was trying to say. I find it odd that Wilson denies that
his wife recommended him. At any rate, I haven't read
any "RNC talking points" this morning. -emarkp |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38594 Activity:low |
7/13 "I say give Karl Rove a medal, even if Bush has to fire him."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162335,00.html
\_ stop stomping.
\_ stop stomping other people's posts.
\_ That's as silly as giving George Tenet a medal ... Oh wait ... |
| 2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:38577 Activity:nil |
7/12 The Democrats Fight Against Democracy and the Constitution:
http://tinyurl.com/7gghk (freeper link)
\_ *sniff* I don't know whether to spew because of the content of the
post or because our own little freeper troll has finally figured
out how to use tinyurl.
\_ Proof that not all Conservatives are as stupid as the ones
you meet in Fresno. |
| 2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:38575 Activity:nil |
7/12 London Bombing: Further Proof We're Winning
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=15626
\_ I wanna see you people tell the British that we're "fighting them
there so we don't have to fight them here"...
\_ Maybe if the Brits arrested people who openly called for the
overthrow of their own government they wouldn't have been bombed.
Here's a nutty idea: fighting them there doesn't matter if we're
inviting them over here.
\_ This is even dumber than the Freeper links you keep posting.
It is all one ad hominem rant vs. Senator Kennedy. Where do
you find these pearls of Conservative "wisdom"? |
| 2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38572 Activity:nil |
7/12 Rove is here to stay and Bush expresses confidence. There is only
room for one party in the United States and if you don't like
it shut your mouth. You liberals lost, get over it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050712/pl_nm/bush_leak_dc
\_ you're the one deleting replies to your threads, hiding url's,
and generally being a baby.
\_ 'The key questions went unanswered by the White House for a second
straight day. So far this week, McClellan has told reporters 23
times that he would not comment because of the "ongoing
investigation."'
\_ ahem. deleting replies again, I see. GROW UP.
\_ "...only room for one party..." Hmm, where have I heard that
line before? Is that Mao or Lenin?
\_ Godwin to thread!
\_ Christ, you're embarrassing me. How can you call yourself a
tech geek and not know what Godwin's Law is??? |
| 2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:38567 Activity:high |
7/12 Today's White House press briefing
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html
"Let's let the investigation take place, and let's let the
investigators bring all the facts together and draw the conclusions
that they draw, and then we will know the facts at that point."
Translation: Dubya buys time for Roveian general to execute on GOP
plans, with expectation that Rove will come out fine anyway since the
base doesn't really care.
In case you didn't figure it out yet: Dubya's current and future
position is he will only be firing people for illegal acts with
convictions, not for merely being "involved" in the Plame affair as
a previously reported position.
\_ I call flip-flop on them!
\_ From http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
(My quotes are going to be partial for emphasis. See the page above
for the full context.)
Q: has the President tried to find out who outed the CIA agent?
...
McClellan: if someone leaked classified information of this nature..
...
McClellan: the President believes leaking classified information is
a very serious matter
It's fairly clear that McClellan was saying that anoyone in the WH
who leaked classified info would be gone. It doesn't appear that
Rove did that.
\_ Why would you say that it doesn't appear that Rove didn't leak
\_ Why would you say that it doesn't appear that Rove leaked
classified info?
\_ Because saying "You know the reason he got that job is because
his wife is in the CIA" may not have revealed classified info.
\_ But that isn't what he said. He said his wife was a
CIA operative. Pretty clear cut what that means.
\_ Because the CIA is in the habit of calling for
investigations by the DoJ just because...
\_ that sounds like a leak of classified info to me.
I guess it depends on what the meanings of "leak" and
"classified" are.
"I did not leak classified info to that man, Mr. Cooper!"
\_ Is being in the employ of the CIA classified?
\_ When it is, yes. You're deliberately being obtuse.
\_ huh?
\_ When the person's affiliation needs to be
secret, it's classified. You're an idiot.
The CIA requested an independent investigation. It's
been ongoing for 2 years. if there was no there there
don't you think it would have been wrapped up with a
bow by now.
\_ I'm not being obtuse, you're being a dumbass.
We'll find out at the END of the investigation if
he violated the law. If he did, he should be out
of there. If he didn't, shut the fuck up.
\_ Yawn. The man's guilty. This is just what he's
been caught at. I say hang 'im.
\_ The END of the investigation... in 2010? 2020?
\_ Uh, I hate to be a nancy about this, but you
should write, "If he did, I should shut the
fuck up. If he didn't, you should shut the
fuck up." Are you an undergrad?
\_ Actually, no. I'm no lefty partisan, but I
also don't want someone who would leak
classified info in the WH. So if he's found
to be guilty, I'll join the chorus demanding
that he be fired.
\_...but until then, Shut the Fuck Up?
\_ Yeah, let's all stfu until the
investigation is over.
\_ Can't we complain about the
previous pronouncements that Rove
had nothing to do with the Plame
affair, and that it was ridiculous
to suggest that?
\_ He never said he had nothing to
do with it. Just that it was
a ridiculous suggestion. Maybe
he means the whole situation is
worthy of ridicule. |
| 2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38559 Activity:nil |
7/12 Story describing verbal exchange during yesterday's WH press
conference, including listing reporters' identities:
http://csua.org/u/coo (Post)
"McClellan is indeed well liked by the press corps. But that counts
for little now, when recent events have shown that he either misled
reporters deliberately or was duped by his White House colleagues." |
| 2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38557 Activity:nil |
7/12 "President Bush, at an Oval Office photo opportunity Tuesday, was asked
directly whether he would fire Rove in keeping with a pledge in June,
2004, to dismiss any leakers in the case. The president did not
respond."
http://csua.org/u/cok
\_ Re: The other day's press conference. Is there a way to learn who
the reporters were that Scott McClellan was addressing (besides
Richard, Dave, John, Dana, Terry and so on)? I'd like to know who
they are, particularly the ones who were (gasp!) asking real
questions and the guy who lobbed him non-questions. -- ulysses
\_ Al Franken has a 2nd cousin, Bob, in the White House Press Corps
who apparently caught McClellan as he was leaving and said
"Scott, one more question.... Never mind, it's not worth it."
Who'll bet that Scott is gone before Karl? --scotsman
\_ Okay, the original .wmv I posted has what you want:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.wmv
Better quality QuickTime:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.mov |
| 2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38552 Activity:nil |
7/11 "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the
trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view,
the most insidious, of traitors." - George H.W. Bush - April 1999
\_ Yeah, but he was an Un-american traitor who raised taxes, so fuck
him.
\_ Did you ever read the Constitution? Who writes the laws? Who
controls the money? It was George Mitchell who pushed Bush, sr
to raise taxes.
\_ Awww, poor widdle Georgie. Only the pwesident, getting
beaten up by the Bad Bad Democrats.
\_ You make me laugh with your silly non-sequiturs. |
| 2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38546 Activity:nil |
7/11 "If anyone in this administration was involved in [outing CIA covert
agent Valeria Plame], they would no longer be in this administration."
-Scott McClellan, 9-29-2003
\_ Surely you have a URL for this so that we can see the entire quote
in context as well as the (very important) original text that's been
replaced by the brackets?
\_ Have you forgotten how to google? For chrissake...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
\_ No, I haven't. I'd like to see the anonymous poster realize
his problems with fact. His [] is editorial, not a quote.
\_ No freakin' shit. Of course it's fucking editorial.
Are you suggesting it's misleading? Did _you_ read the
"entire quote in context"? You're a fucking moron.
\_ No it is not. The word in the actual quote was "it."
How would paraphrase what "it" means in that context?
I think they did a good job making it clear what "it"
meant. You are just nit picking.
\_ "leaking classified information". It doesn't appear
that Rove "outed" her. |
| 2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38524 Activity:nil |
7/11 So now that we know Rove is the leaker, any bets on whether Bush will
actually follow through on his own statements that anyone involved in
the leak should be fired?
\_ He said that anyone who did anything illegal would "be dealt with".
\_ "Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody
in my administration who leaked classified information.
If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like
to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action."
\_ Its pretty funny to see how http://foxnews.com and http://cnn.com are
covering all of this. Its huge news, and all of the headlines
are about Bush's platitudes on the London bombings.
\_ here are some amusing, admittedly slanted commentary
on Fox's anchors comments about the bombing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/05/205.html -danh
\_ my bad, I wasn't sure if it was "be dealt with" or something
else. But I'm pretty sure the verbiage has changed from
"leak classified information" to committing an "illegal" act.
You know, like how "WMDs" changed to "WMD related programs"?
You know, like how "WMDs" changed to "WMD related program
activities"?
\_ Make that "knowingly leak classified information." Rove
is using the "I didn't inhale" defense.
\_ Oh. So Rove gets s spanking? The least they could do is make
it a public spanking.
\_ Can we get the Bush twins to substitute in for Rove for
the public spanking? I don't want to see Rove's pasty
white flabby butt, thank you. |
| 2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38523 Activity:kinda low |
7/11 Transcript of today's White House regular news briefing
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/07/11/briefing-711
(this gets pretty insane, IMO)
\_ CSPAN video
http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/scotty_rove_71105.wmv
\_ I have no respect for any commentator who calls McClellan
"scotty". It's amazing what a dipshit MM is.
\_ Nice to see the press grow a pair.
(this gets pretty insane, IMO)
\_ C-SPAN video (Real Audio/Video)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050711-3.v.smil
(better quality, more complete, less troll-worthy, use RealPlayer
to view)
(better quality, more complete, less troll-worthy)
\_ Nice to see the press grow a pair.
\_ Are you a complete moron? They've been haranguing McClellan and
Bush for quite a while. Their consistent whiney dumbass
questions have gotten pretty old.
\_ The Karl Rove info has been boiling for the last two weeks.
This is the first time anyone brought it up at a press
conf.
\_ Yeah, McClellan is clearly a weasel. He doesn't need any
diminutives applied to him.
\_ Hey now. No reason to be insulting weasels OR dipshits
like that here.
\_ Whereas if MM doesn't have a diminuative applied to him hey
may balloon up to the size of a house.
\_ huh huh... yeah. michael moore is fat. huh huh...
\_ Yeah, treason and high crimes, such whiney topics from that
whiny liberal media. Why can't they focus on important stuff
like if Bush got a blowjob and lied about it.
\_ The press has given Bush a pass since 9/11. About time they
started doing their job. Do you remember how much grief
Clinton used to get? |
| 2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38519 Activity:nil |
7/10 Rove's attorney linked to money launderers in hilarious fashion:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_07_10.php#006045
\_ Beautiful. I'm sure it's hard to find good, honest representation,
but, Shirley, you'd think they could try a little harder.
\_ Check the top post on tpm. someone in the gaggle rediscovered
their balls.
\_ Scott McClellan makes Ari Fleischer seem honest and forthright,
although I have to feel some sympathy for the "white house
press secretary." It must really suck to have to speak publicly
for these jokers.
for these jokers. -lewis
\- why do you feel "sympathy" for them again?
\_ Sort of the same "sympathy" I would feel for, say, a
Kamikaze pilot. Gee, sucks for him.
\_ But do you feel sympathy with the imperial stooge back
in Tokyo who lies to justify sending the kamikaze
pilot to his death? That is Scott McClellan, not the
pilot.
\_ Our very own Beltway Bob. Little weasel.
\- right, i feel more sympathy for the troops and some
of the mid/high level military.
\_ TalkingPointsMemo has become *the* must read blog out there. Joshua
has broken more political scandals than the Washington Post over
have broken more political scandals than the Washington Post over
the last six months. |
| 2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38518 Activity:moderate |
7/11 Dear Osama Bin Laden and crazy Islamic fundamentalists, I know you
guys are pissed off and want the US to pull out of Iraq and
Afghanistan. How about a complete cease fire for a year or two so
that George Bush can declare victory and pull out troops completely?
Afterwards, you can resume your attacks and blow everyone up
as usual, and declare your victory. This proposal is a win-win
situation. What say you? Jesus Saves, and Allah Akbar!
\_ Bush has declared victory about five times now.
\_ How many times did senior Bush delare victory? You know, I miss
\_ How many times did senor Bush delare victory? You know, I miss
the old Bush. He was so much more methodical and wiser.
\_ He also had better grammar than you.
\_ You mean spelling?
\_ What, gramatically, was wrong with the previous post?
I'm amused at self proclaimed motd grammarians these days.
Like the guy who claimed the BTAF apostrophe comic had an
error... Sigh.
\_ Well, it depends on the meaning. It's a little
awkward to have e.g. "so much more fat and taller"
versus "so much more fat and tall". The former would
better be expressed "was taller and so much more fat"
because it removes ambiguity over the "so much more".
\_ You're an idiot.
\_ Why don't you learn English or go back to your
fucking motherland Scotland, scotsman.
\_ How do you know he's a Scot, laddie? He
might be black or hispanic adopted from
his Scotish parents. Yo bro, whaddup?
\_ I'll explain in detail why you're an idiot.
You're a prescriptivist who's long on
commentary and short on facts. "more wiser"
wouldn't make sense, so "more" is obviously
grouped with "methodical". "So much wiser
and more methodical" would be unwieldy, but
would be the only way to duplicate the original
stmt. Your example fails to duplicate the
original statement. And if you want to pay
my way to move to Scotland, I'd love to. But
it wouldn't make you any less wrong.
\_ The reason you're both idiots is that you're
taking part in this lame assed thread.
\_ FYI there are multiple anonymous people you
are arguing with here. I didn't claim
it was strictly wrong, just a little
awkward. Someone else made the original
grammar comment. Still, there are two
possible ways to interpret it:
"so much more methodical" "so much wiser"
"so much more methodical" "wiser"
You know-it-all dumbfuck.
\_ Someone claimed it was grammatically
incorrect. I asked what was incorrect.
You offered a point that was not
incorrect. Ipso facto...
\_ Well you're an idiot. I'm the
original critic (not pp) and the
original phrase is ambiguous at best,
retarded at worst. Did he mean:
"wiser and so much more methodical"?
or
"so much more wiser and methodical"
\_ Keep digging.
\_ You'd love to move to Scotland? Why do you
hate America you unpatriotic fuck tard?
Get the fuck out of my country.
\_ Ever been to Scotland? Edinburgh's an
awesome city with friendly people and
beautiful women. Given the chance, I'd
love to live there.
\_ I missed a chance to go to Edinburg.
Perhaps unwisely. -- ilyas
\_ If it's not Scottish, it's crap!
\_ I don't see anything gramatically wrong, but "delare"
should be "declare". But a typo is no big deal unless
the poster is picking on someone else's English, which
was not the case here. -- !PP |
| 2005/7/10-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38506 Activity:nil |
7/9 Rove is nailed. Wonder if any major news media will pick this up
during the week.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1440027/posts
\_ Rove can become the focus of the investigation. Fitzgerald will
be asking, "Did you know Plame was CIA at the time?" "Undercover
CIA?" "Did you know you can't expose people in this class?"
\_ Rove was already known to be disgusting and people still voted
for Bush. I guess as a politician it pays to have a scumbag
for an advisor who can do the dirty stuff and take any and all flak.
\_ Nailed? "Nothing in the Cooper e-mail suggests that Rove used
Plame's name or knew she was a covert operative" ... "'A fair
reading of the e-mail makes clear that the information conveyed
was not part of an organized effort to disclose Plame's
identity...'" I'm not defending him, but he's hardly "nailed."
He may become so in the future, however.
\_ gwbush should make him a supreme court justice so
he can declare the original law unconstitutional
\_ csua motd lawyers please correct if needed, but
i think just because you didn't mean to break the law
is never an excuse. |
| 2005/7/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38491 Activity:nil |
7/8 Mann Report on "liberalism" of PBS is a joke:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050718&s=blumenthal |
| 2005/7/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38461 Activity:low |
7/7 "We will find them. We will bring them to justice." -- Bush
\_ "If [Osama bin Laden] thinks he can hide and run from the
United States and our allies, he will be sorely mistaken."
-- Bush, 9/15/01
"I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend
that much time on him"
-- Bush, 3/13/02
\_ Oh this oft-quoted comment taken out of context.
You libs ever read the ENTIRE speech? Look it up!
You may find the 2nd half a little more interesting.
\_ It wasn't a speech. It was a press conference. He
says OBL has been marginalized which is highly debatable.
He said that we have a strategy and it's working. Do
you believe that? And if so, please explain it to us
so that we too can support this strategy.
\_ I'm sure your years of military/CT service will
help you with your Monday morning quarterbacking.
The truth is, these numbers are tiny. The enemy
is elusive and unable to directly fight.
\_ And of course we gathered our friends and allies
and took a systematic, worldwide approach to
tracking them, their money, and their associates.
Oh, wait. No. We invaded Iraq instead.
\_ The second half says that there are more important
things like 1. our soldiers are well supplied, 2.
our strategy is clear, and 3. our coalition is
strong. Well, Bush failed on all three. So how
is that "more interesting"?
"[Osama bin Laden is] either alive and well, or alive and
not too well, or not alive."
-- Rumsfeld, 10/7/02
\_ He forgot the "zombie - neither living nor dead" option.
\_ Osama the Undead! Maybe he could be the last boss in
the next Resident Evil game.
\_ Osama bin Zombie!
\_ Send more special forces! |
| 2005/7/7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38454 Activity:high |
7/6 So wait, a member of the "liberal" New York Times just took
a fall for the Bush Administration? How is Rush Limbaugh
going to spin this one?
\- when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
\_ Interesting data point:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/7/1148/62336
Miller's filthy. I don't know that she should be in prison
for "protecting sources", but she definitely needs to be in
prison.
\_ it hurts my head to sort out the timeline of how this
happened, maybe someone could summarize. judith miller
spewed a bunch of horseshit about Iraq leading
up to the war and has no friends.
\_ Judith Miller is one of the reasons that the WMD "threat" was
so badly reported and covered. Fuck her and fuck the NYT.
\_ I think Judith Miller is a putz too, but I think that
reporters being able to maintain the confidentiality of
their sources is even more important. --liberal
\- this is not the relationship of a journalist and a
source, it is the relationships of a criminal suspect
and an (unwitting?) accomplice. it is a narrow case and
the procedurual obligations are adequate to limit the
chilling effect. it has nothing to do with miller
being a putz but the nature of of what was revealed
being against public policy. i think the one thing you
can reasonably argue for is the journalist should be
entited to his or her own jury trial [so jury nullification
is an option beyond judicial checks and balances, should
some secrecy obsessed "hypothetical" executive branch
pass some law making all whistleblowing/leaking a crime]
and not subjec tto detention by a sole judge for contempt.
this is not an absolute right but one for a certain
public policy end and thus is limited to a scope consistent
with those ends. |
| 2005/7/6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38427 Activity:high |
7/6 Bush nominates Judge Vandelay to replace O'Connor.
\_ url?
\_ it's a Seinfeld reference
\_ duh. thx. |
| 2005/7/3-6 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38403 Activity:kinda low |
7/3 Does anyone know if http://freerepublic.com censors posts? \_ Yes. \_ Yes, plus they turn off your account. \_ Yes, for anything that doesn't toe the party line. And they are blazingly fast, it will happen in seconds. Gestapo efficiency. \_ Can we have a moratorium on Nazi references? \_ Fuck you, goebbels \_ Can we have a moratorium on hypersensitivity? \_ Can we have a moratorium on hyperthreading? |
| 2005/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38399 Activity:high |
7/2 "MSNBC Analyst Says Cooper Documents Reveal Karl Rove as Source In
Plame Case"
http://csua.org/u/cla (mediainfo.com)
\_ Do they still shoot traitors?
\_ Do they still hang traitors?
\_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
\_ Ahh, Newsweek. Counting the minutes until this turns into
another LGF-wank-fest.
\_ There probably won't be any fallout from this. The bar for
impeachable offense was lowered for Clinton and raised for Bush.
\_ fallout != impeachment. Bush probably can't be impeached
for this, for reasons why, see Regan. That doesn't mean
there won't be fallout.
\_ What I meant is that it is silly to think that Bush &
Cheney didn't know about this/plan this. There probably
won't be any fallout and it will be like Reagan if there
is.
\_ If they indict Rove over the leak, he could serve
a prison sentence. A non-Rove WH would be some
serious fallout.
\_ Two words: Presidential pardon. Rove isn't going
anywhere, even if something does come out of this which
I kinda doubt.
\_ Oh come ON. Vush wouldn't use a presidential
\_ Oh come ON. Bush wouldn't use a presidential
pardon on Rove in this case. Haven't you
noticed? Even since Nixon, When Republicans
do something stupid, and it's proven, they get
thrown to the dogs.
\_ And then come back 15 years later to run random
agencies and embasseys...
agencies and embassies...
\_ Reagan pardoned half a dozen of the Iran-Contra
crowd, as well as quote a few major donors
who had been convicted of violating campaign
finance laws.
\_ Rove's lawyer is saying he didn't mention her name ... the notes
aren't clear what exactly Rove said.
\_ You could still get stuff like "His wife is an undercover CIA
agent." where anyone could then look up the marriage or mortgage
records.
\_ Rove is not the target of the Special Investigation
http://csua.org/u/cln (Washington Post)
\_ Newswekk rundown of the story:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
\_ Comment here by jblack.
\_ Go fuck yourself.
\_ Found another easy target? Got bored with emarkp and williamc?
How predictable. -John
\_ Go fuck yourself. And you can go fuck yourself as well, mr.
selective censor guy. Censorship is always wrong, even when
the individual you're censoring does not believe in freedom.
\_ Ah, but you see, now jblack's comments are DIE FRUCHT
VERBOTTEN! It's free advertising for a point of view!
Delete me next, motd censor-man! Not enough people pay
attention to me. -- ilyas
\_ go fuck yourself jblack.
\_ Oh yes Lawrence O'Donnell of freak out 'liar' fame who has
also stated he doesn't care if soldiers are demoralized
by Kerry's Iraq negativity.
by Kerry's Iraq negativity. -jblack
http://www.streamload.com/donnyd413/OReilly_clips/Scarborough_Country-.wmv
\_ Go fuck yourself.
\- if it turns out ROVE is culpable of some significant wrong
[and i am deliberately not framing this in legal terms] i
think it will be interesting to see who will defend this.
you can agree on the facts yet have different opinions
about some of the BILLARY scandals, but something like the
MARC RICH pardon was just indefensible and somebody who
tries to justify that should lose all credibility. it's
possible a FUD strategy will work here ... as we saw with
the SWIFTBOAT campaign, betting on STUPIDITY is close to a
sure thing.
\_ I have yet to see anyone disprove John Oneill's
accusations. Kerry hasn't even signed 180 and its
been what 250+ days? -jblack
\_ where the fuck have you been? he signed this a month ago.
\_ It was never posted on The Free Republic, so jblack
never heard about it...
\- kerry was within shooting distance of the enemy.
bush avoided going to fight in a war he supported.
that's the relelvant issue. not how many stitches
did kerry get in vietnam. we're not comparing
mccain vs dole in terms of who made greater
sacrifices. if you want to compare whether clinton
of bush is a bigger coward, that is also reasonable.
\_ I don't really know what Kerry's war record is, and
I don't care. However, saying that Kerry
\_ Bush never signed his Form 180. And Kerry has signed
his, better late than never.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200409100001
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010795.php
\_ Really sad to see you defending traitors like that. I thought
you loved your country more than your party. Guess I pegged
you wrong on that. |
| 2005/7/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38388 Activity:moderate |
7/1 http://csua.org/u/cki "Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman on the Supreme Court, announced her retirement Friday." \_ Ok, someone had this scoop on the motd days ago. How did that happen? \- Judicious Branch Prediction (SDO apparently let it slip before ALGOR v BUSH was decided). ok tnx. \_ Does the psb understand that jokes are supposed to be funny? \_ Will Bush appoint Torquemada to replace her? \- I spoke to my contacts in the Invisible Empire of Legal Homosexuals. \- I spoke to my contacts in the invisible empire of legal homosexuals. \_ My money is on Ashcroft. \- i would like to bet you that it will NOT be Ashcroft. can you get in touch with me. tnx. --psb \- BTW, i dont think the first BUSHCO appointee will be alberto "torture memo" gonzalez. i assume for the first one he is also not going to do something odd like nominate R GUILLALNANAI. \_ I'm hoping that Bush picks Posner. \- i would like to bet you that it will not be Ashcroft. can you get in touch with me. tnx. --psb \- POSNER would have been a great choice for CHIEF but i think he's pissed off a lot of people. i think the only way he would get in is if MCCAIN had somehow captured the BALLS of BUSHCO and for some reason decided to push POSNER. rmember POSNER said things like the 9-11 commission proposals on centralizing intelligence was dumb and i doubt on centralizing intelligence were dumb and i doubt he believes in wacky social conservative ideas. \_ It's Partha the Pinhead! \- ZIPPY would have capitalized words like "wacky" above. \_ M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead \_ Wow, she's retiring before Renquist? My theory was they will retire together, which makes getting replacements in easier for whatever administration is in power (more room for compromise with 2 seats). -- ilyas \_ A blogger surmised that Rehnquist wants to wait till Sept. to retire so that the current set of justices will set the record for continuous service time. O'Conner will stay on past Sept. since she's waiting for a successor to be appointed. \_ Constitutionally can she do this? Can an appointment begin while the justice is still on the court? I doubt it. \_ You're an idiot. |
| 2005/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38378 Activity:moderate |
6/30 Is there any better way for http://cnn.com to downplay the deaths of 16 U.S. SOCOM and Navy Seals than to title it: "Bodies recovered from Afghan crash" (cnn.com) Also compare to International Edition link for http://cnn.com. Besides having a different lead, http://edition.cnn.com even has this: "Bush nets career-low TV audience | 9/11 link slammed". \_ Um, the chinook went down like three days ago. There was lots of reporting then. They finally got in to see the crash site and recover the bodies. \_ Yeah, but reporting then was "fates unknown". Think of it like this: When three or more U.S. soldiers died in a single incident, what kind of coverage did you see then? Compare to the http://cnn.com title. \_ Look, I'm all about criticizing poor media coverage, but in this case, I think you're kneejerking. \_ I really don't think so. 16 U.S. soldiers dead in a single incident. This is normally big news, and it was small-medium news a few days ago on Day 1 of reporting. You can also compare it to the network TV news web sites. \_ Haha, is CNN the new Foxnews? -- ilyas \_ The general wisdom is since 9/11 they've been getting pounded by Fox News and they want to do something about that. Anyway, there is a difference between http://cnn.com and CNN (cable TV), with the former being more easily measurable. IMO, http://foxnews.com has been more "balanced" than http://cnn.com. Har. \_ General wisdom sure is smart. -- ilyas \_ I don't know about that, but in this specific case, general wisdom likely matches core truths. \_ [deleted], let me explain how this works. 'General wisdom' is explaining an 'observation' (which may or may not be valid), with a theory which is neither verifiable nor falsifiable, for all practical purposes. This theory can't 'match' anything. -- ilyas \_ Your definition of general wisdom is strict, and by being strict suits your argument well. Sorry, but that's all I'm going to discuss on this particular topic. To objectively measure this, you could ask intelligent people of neutral political leanings, "What do you think of the sentence, 'The general wisdom is since 9/11 [CNN has been] getting pounded by Fox News and they want to do something about that'" (without any tone inflection or suggestion that anything in particular is wrong). I'd also ask that you refrain from using my name if I don't post it. It's not very nice from my perspective, especially when I have tried to be civil in this discussion. Thanks. \_ Right, it's the fact that my definition is too strict, not the fact that this is just a conspiracy theory which nobody can possibly confirm. -- ilyas \_ What is this conspiracy theory I adhere to exactly? \_ You should meet his brother, Lieutenant Knowledge! |
| 2005/6/30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38369 Activity:nil |
6/29 The Daily Show and The Last Throes
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/06/27.html#a3668
\_ This is excellent. Thanks.
The guy playing the conservative commentator wasn't funny at all
though. |
| 2005/6/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38354 Activity:low |
6/30 I missed Bush's speech last night. Did he say anything convincing?
(not a troll) --erikred
\_ http://www.cspan.org There's not reason to "miss" a tv speech
anymore. They all get archived at the above url.
\_ Touche', Moriarty.
\_ It was very good, very moving. We should all support our troops,
and there's no higher calling than joining our noble fighting
force that preserve our peace and freedom. God Bless Bush. |
| 2005/6/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:38349 Activity:moderate |
6/29 Bush criticism deleted. It's unlikely you'll convince Bush supporters
and anti-war people in any direction any how.
\_ Not true. You can't convince Bush supporter to go for peace in the
face of threats, but I'm pretty sure a pacifists will be pissing in
the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at him.
the wind looking for a gun when a raghead has a AK-47 pointed at
him.
\_ If you don't support Bush, you're a hippie weirdo peacenik
raghead-loving vegan nutjob, whose only good trait is a
reasonable command of the English language. -John
\_ GWB may not have the the powerful command of the English
language, but he sure has the most powerful military
command in the world.
\_ I was indirectly referring to the hope that pp is a
poor troll attempt, because if he/she/it isn't, a
swift and merciless beating is in order. -John
\_ A bona fide redneck would not have misused the
phrase "pissing in the wind".
\_ Not true. Bush's support falls every month. |
| 2005/6/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38348 Activity:very high |
6/28 Analysis of Dubya's speech from the Washington Post:
"The address continued a shift in the administration's emphasis as it
has justified the Iraq war, beginning with the threat posed by
Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction, continuing to the need
to promote democracy in the Middle East, and now suggesting a more
seamless link between Iraq and the attacks on American soil."
\_ "An outright lie mired in a mighty river of bullshit."
\_ Why? If all those reasons are bullshit, as you seem to imply, then
why *did* Bush want the war? So he could get the amazing
45% popularity he presently enjoys? So we could bring the price of
oil down to a comfortable 60$/barrel? I think Occam's Razor says
Bush means what he says, and simply fucked up. Repeatedly.
\_ He said to his biographer in '99 that he wanted to be a wartime
president so he could get the things he wanted to done. I think
he means what he says. I don't think he quite grasps the
repercussions of what he says. I think the war was to project
our power over the region, and to yield as much profit, political
and monetarily, as possible. "We're liberating Iraq's money.
Bring your duffel bag! Oh, and don't worry about armoring that
HMV... It's just a soldier."
\_ Occam's Razor says that the reasons espoused by the Project for
a New American Century (with signatories Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.)
which declared the importance of invading Iraq back in 1997,
are the reasons we invaded Iraq. Primarily their reason is
"because we can." -tom
\_ You make naive assumptions about Bush administration motivations.
\- i agree he fucked up. but when the fuckups constitute not
catching OBL, AbuG, making the american reputation take
a large hit, wasted money, people killed ... including
white american people ... well, it seems there should be
more than a "whoops". what more could BUSHCO have fuckedup
before they should have paid some consequences? yes, i dont
necessarily expect BUSHCO to have said "i will not accept
the nomination of my party because i am a fuckup" but i
would have hoped he american voter would have tossed him
out on his ass. instead we compare a person who was
actually within bullet range doring vietnam with a guy
passwd out under a a table in an alabama bar.
passed out under a a table in an alabama bar.
\_ That 45% or whatever is basically not of consequence. He still
won his election. And then one could consider that he and his
cronies have benefited from the situation at large.
Re: voter stupidity there's a good lecture I saw on ilyas's
"libertarian purity test" guy's web site:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/pubcho2.html
"Thus the typical citizen drops down to a lower level of mental
performance as soon as he enters the political field. He argues
and analyzes in a way which he would readily recognize as
infantile within the sphere of his real interests. He becomes a
primitive again."
"1. For many beliefs, ignorance or idiocy are very (privately)
costly. E.g., if you believe that you can do your job
perfectly well while intoxicated.
2. For many other beliefs, however, ignorance or idiocy are
(privately) costless. E.g., what practical difference does it
make if you don't believe in evolution?"
\_ Bush invades Iraq so he can stay in office and it
makes it seem like he's doing his job leading the
country while he and his cronies get to
continue exploiting us for power/money/influence.
\_ They're busy packing the ranks of non elected
and difficult to remove elected officials with slaves
to their philosophy so when gwbush resigns in disgrace,
it won't matter.
\_ A slave to a philosophy. What a lovely expression.
What does it mean, exactly? -- ilyas |
| 2005/6/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:38326 Activity:nil |
6/28 On Tuesday evening, President Bush will try to convince you that
we're making big progress in Iraq, energy, social security, tax,
health care, and others. What are some things you expect
him to say? I'll start:
\_ "Terrorists hate freedom, that is why we must stay in Iraq"
\_ More interesting to an actual discussion would be what you think
he'll say, why he'll say it and why you think he is right or wrong
with each statement.
\_ More interesting than that would be a drinking game - a shot
of Patron every time he says the word "freedom" or refers to
9/11. |
| 2005/6/27 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:38308 Activity:nil |
6/27 "If you look up 'last throes,' it can mean a violent last throe,"
Rumsfeld said on ABC's "This Week." Violence may escalate, he said,
because insurgents "have so much to lose between now and December."
"Insurgencies tend to go on five, six, eight, 10, 12 years," Rumsfeld
said on "Fox News Sunday." |
| 2005/6/24-27 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38294 Activity:nil |
6/24 Bush's War, Myths and Reality, on Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160556,00.html
\_ Why isn't this posted on The Free Republic yet? |
| 11/23 |