Politics Domestic Immigration - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Domestic:Immigration:
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2013/10/24-11/8 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:54745 Activity:nil
9/30    http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-may-invented-lightsaber-152606868.html
        The URL says it all.
2013/2/5-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54598 Activity:nil
2/5     http://www.csua.org/u/z5u (news.yahoo.com)
        "I hope no one uses the term 'illegal immigrants' here today," said
        Committee Ranking Member John Conyers of Michigan. "Our citizens are
        not illeg -- the people in this country are not illegal. They are out
        of status."
        How did this guy get himself on the House Judiciary Committee?  Is it
        about justice or politics?  No wonder people lose faith on our
        legal^H^H^H^H^Hstatus system.
        \_ Racist! Do you still use the terms negro and oriental?
           \_ Which race does "illegal immigrants" refer to?  -- OP
              \_ Latinos.
                 \_ There are also lots of illegal immigrants from China where
                    I came from.  -- OP, legal immigrant
                    \_ You might feel more welcome at Duke:
                       \_ I hate Frats, they are biggots. Remember the Frat
                          run company named Abercrombie? Two Wongs Make It White
                          with racist images from WW2, without any apology from
                          these frat boys?
                          run company named Abercrombie? Two Wongs Make It
                          White with racist images from WW2, without any
                          apology from these frat boys?
                          \_ What about Asian or Black frats? Are they
                             racist too?
2012/6/1-7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:54406 Activity:nil
6/1     http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/05/what-matters-economic-mobility/2089/#
2011/11/2-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54209 Activity:nil
11/2    "NYC arrest records: Many Occupy Wall Street protesters live in luxury"
        http://www.csua.org/u/uml (news.yahoo.com)
        'Many "Occupy Wall Street" protesters arrested in New York City
        "occupy" more luxurious homes than their "99 percent" rhetoric might
        suggest, a Daily Caller investigation has found.'
        \_ "Many"? How many? This is a classic weasel word.
           \_ Sigh.  RTA if you indeed care.
              \_ Yeah, I read it. The answer is not there. $1,850/mo is not
                 much of a place in NYC, probably a studio or one bedroom.
                 \_ So I guess by "We are the 99 percent" they really mean "We
                    are the 99 percent of NYC".
                    \_ I am pretty sure even $1850/mo is still in the lower
                       99% of rents, though it might be in the top 50%.
        \_ I'd protest if I weren't on the verge of poverty and working to
           sustain myself! What a bullshit article.
        \_ I'll bet some of them have phones, televisions and refrigerators
           in their homes. Fat cats!
           \_ Well, iPhones.
2011/9/26-10/18 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54181 Activity:nil
9/27    Where did suburb lover go?
        \_ He defaulted on his underwater no-doc, no-down loan on his McMansion
           and lives with his wife and three kids in his mom's basement.
        \_ suburb lover is dim
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2011/3/5-4/20 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54053 Activity:nil
3/5     The hottest police chief in the world is now seeking asylum in the US:
        \_ Police chief no more.  She's fired.  http://www.csua.org/u/spc
2011/1/1-2/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:53977 Activity:nil
1/1     US students indeed have worse scores on paper in PISA (Program for
        Int'l Student Assessment) than those from Asian countries, but don't
        blame our education system:
        \_ And yet US students make bajillions inventing things like credit
           default swaps and a fake housing market. Life ain't the boy scouts.
        \_ Those tests show who the good white collar slaves are; eg
           "work hard, dont stop working, don't go home, stay at work
            U B rich!"
            \_ Ah if only the world actually rewarded work with pay linearly.
        \_ Not very PC, but very interesting.
2010/11/15-2011/1/13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53992 Activity:nil
11/15   "CA Supreme Court ...... ruled that illegal immigrants are entitled to
        the same tuition breaks offered to in-state high school students to
        attend public colleges and universities."
        Not only do illigal immigrants enjoy the same benefits as citizens
        (not to mention legal immigrants), they can actually enjoy more
        benefits than some citizens.
        \_ Classic variable mislabeling error: you're confusing
           "citizens of the United States who reside in California" with
           "citizens of the United States," and failing to distinguish
           between "illegal immigrants who reside in California" and
           "illegal immigrants." Also, you're confusing "citizen" and
           "resident," as in "benefits of being a citizen of the United
           States" versus "benefits of being a resident of California."
           Of course, you could have avoided this confusion entirely by
           simply writing, "Achtung! Papers, please!"
           \_ I guess no UC funding comes from the Federal Government, right?
              -- OP
              \_ the clue is weak in this one
2010/8/29-9/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53942 Activity:kinda low
8/29    OC turning liberal, maybe there is hope for CA afterall:
        \_ and the state is slowly turning conservative. Meg 2010!
           \_ We will see. Seems unlikely.
        \_ Yeah, because CA sure has a problem with not enough dems in power!
           If only dems had been running the state for the last 40 years!
           \_ Yes, if only they'd been running the state for the last 40
              years without the GOP blocking every goddamn budget that
              made sense. Blaming the party in power when you keep holding
              them up is a shameful charade.
           \_ CA is doing pretty well compared to most of the nation, believe
              it or not.
        \_ Big parts of OC (like Stabba Ana) turning into a barrio does
           not bode well for California.
           \_ Sure it does, immigrants have always revitalized America.
              The newest wave is no different.
              \_ So you think that the entire State becoming a slum except
                 for a few gated communities here and there is revitalization?
                 Previous immigrants had much different values than the
                 current immigrants do. I do agree that immigrants will
                 help run our economic engine so that we don't become a
                 dying nation like Japan, but the American standard-of-living
                 is taking a dive as all of these Third World immigrants
                 bring their Third World philosophies, diseases, and
                 values into our nation. I see a big difference between
                 Polish Jews, Irish, and even Chinese as compared to
                 immigrants from Africa and Central America - and I don't
                 mean skin color.
                 \_ "Third World philosophies, diseases, and values"
                    Er, WTF?
                    \_ Diseases like tuberculosis are making a reappearance
                       thanks to our new immigrant friends.  Let's just say
                       that immigrants from Japan and immigrants from El
                       Salvador don't bring the same things to the table.
                       There are very large cultural and religious differences.
                       There are large differences in attitudes towards the
                       treatment of women, human rights, education, the role
                       of government, etc.  It is part of the reason why
                       these countries are they way thay they are. If this is
                       these countries are the way they are. If this is
                       not obvious to you I won't waste my time explaining.
                       \_ You sound exactly like the Know Nothing bigots who
                          hated the Irish and Italians at the turn of the 19th
                          century. And the anti-Asian racists who had the
                          Japanese put in internment camps during WW-II.
                          The new immigrants will join American society just
                          fine and renew America with the integration of their
                          values with ours. This is especially true for Latin
                          American immigrants. I don't know who all these
                          African immigrants are that you claim are coming
                          to America, but America still has a problem with
                          race that needs working on.
                          \_ As you point out yourself, America has a problem
                             with race. It was much easier for Irish to
                             assimilate than it will be for Africans and
                             Latinos and this is one of the reasons (but
                             not the only reason) why.
                       \_ El Salvador? Are you nuts? The El Salvadoran
                          immigrant population mostly fled dictators and
                          death squads, and they're a hell of a lot more
                          committed to a free and democratic US than you
                          are. El Salvador is the way it is now because
                          WE, the US, supported dictators and death
                          squads. That's a matter of record. Look up
                          declassified documents on the CIA in El Salvador
                          in the 60s for more.
                          \_ Yes, El Salvador would be a First World nation
                             if not for US involvement in their affairs.
                       \_ Diseases like tb are making a resurgence because
                          we have a failing health care system. Poor folks
                          can't afford to get immunized, and rich folks
                          are buying up Cipro-- and then not using the
                          right doses to kill whatever bugs they do have,
                          resulting in drug-resistant strains of tb. Also,
                          do you know what you have to do to get a visa
                          in the US? Get a raft of shots and medical
                          exams. As for illegals, haven't you been
                          reading that illegal immigrants have been
                          returning to their countries of origins in
                          record numbers? If any of this is not obvious
                          to you, please, by all means, ask for more
                          \_ Yeah, soon there won't be any illegal immigrants
                             left here. You know, I have a bridge for sale
                             you might be interested in.
2010/6/11-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:53858 Activity:nil
6/9     Terrorism and immigraion-- these are our priorities!
2010/5/17-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Recreation/Sports] UID:53829 Activity:nil
5/17    L.A. is now officially a pro-illegal-immigrant city.
        \_ You are now officially an idiot.
        \_ Ah the arm chair wisdom of someone who'd never been to LA.
2010/3/29-4/14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:53763 Activity:nil
3/29    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100329/us_time/08599197588300
        "Arabs, who would seem to have an even stronger race claim than
        Hispanics do, are trumpeting their own write-in campaign because the
        Census by default counts them as white ... Ironically, part of the
        problem is that Arab immigrants a century ago petitioned the Federal
        Government to be categorized as white to avoid discrimination."
        Which way do they want?
        \_ Shockingly, not all Arabs want the same thing.
2009/11/17-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53532 Activity:nil
11/17   Illegal Immigration: There's an App for That
2009/9/14-21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:53361 Activity:nil
9/14    Does anyone have the controversial book Bell Curve? I know
        it has the political incorrect [and perhaps flawed] data that
        shows certain race have higher IQ than other race and I'm
        wondering how smart Russians are relative to white Americans
        and East Orientals. I can't seem to Google for this information.
        The only thing I got is the following:
        \_ from the URL(book): "East Asians typically earn higher
           IQ scores than white Americans, especially in the verbal
           intelligence areas."
           I beg to differ. Almost all of my East Asian TAs I had at
           Cal had very very low communication skills."
        \_ "White Americans" are not a race. Most are a mixture of all sorts
           of ethnicities. For instance, many more people have Jewish
           blood in them that you would think. The populace is pretty far from
           its English origins.
        \_ Bell Curve said that intellegence is in this order:
           1) Jews
           2) Orientals
           3) White Europeans
           4) Mongrel races (Mexicans, Arabs, etc)
           5) Mud people (Negroids, Australoids)
           Not sure where Russians fit in here, probably 3, but maybe 4.
           \_ How about the Persians since they're not Arabs?
           \_ Based on what I read on publications with a bunch of east European
              and Russian-sounding last names, Russians and Jews tie.
           \_ When did Adolf get a Soda account?
        \_ Here is my personal un-proven belief:
           - Intelligence is correlated with individual's genetics.
           - Ingelligence is not correlated with race's genetics.
           - In general, culture is correlated with race.  Within the US, this
             is still true among first-generation immigrants, but to a lesser
             extent among later generations.
           - How hard-working you are is correlated with culture.
           - Income is correlated with intelligence.
           - Net worth is NOT correlated with intelligence.
           - One's "achievement" or social status is correlated (among other
             things) more with net worth than with income.
           - Chance of immigration to the US is correlated with achievements.
           Of course, all the above only apply to averages over large
           populations.  Indiviaual cases vary.
2009/8/29-9/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:53308 Activity:nil
8/29    'For immigrants, Kennedy remained tireless advocate'
        'Kennedy remained an ally for immigrants and minorities, even though
         Massachusetts didn't have a sizable Latino or Asian population.
         "He had no constituency he was trying to serve, other than what he saw
         was fair and just," Mindiola said."'
        Now this was a real pro-immigrant senator, not like those so-called
        "pro-immigrant" vote-buying politicians.  I didn't know I benefited
        from him so much until after he passed away.  May he RIP.
        -- Asian immigrant
        \_ Is he pro H1B? We need more H1Bs so that tech companies can be
           more competitive, by hiring cheap skilled PhDs.
           \_ He's now pro annelid.
           \_ "All Immigration Votes of Senator Edward Kennedy"
              http://www.csua.org/u/oyr (profiles.numbersusa.com)
              I'm not sure.  At a first glance he seems to be anti-H1B, but
              maybe he actually cast his vote according to the specific details
              of the bills and the then-current situation, rather than adopting
              a simple for/against position.  -- OP
              I'm not sure.  At a first glance he seemed to be anti-H1B, but
              maybe he actually casted his vote according to the specific
              details of the bills and the then-current situations, rather than
              adopting a simple for/against position.  -- OP
2009/7/23-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53185 Activity:low
7/23    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_hospital_deportation
        "Hospitals are already struggling under the staggering costs of
        treating the nation's roughly 47 million uninsured. Illegal immigrants
        make up an estimated 15 percent of this group, according to the Pew
        Hispanic Center."  "He and Larson also say a country that relies on
        cheap, immigrant labor for everything from agriculture, to clothing to
        construction, should factor in the cost of catastrophic injuries to
        those providing these essential services - whether it means requiring
        employers to offer coverage even for day laborers or ensuring public
        and nonprofit hospitals can care for them."
        And people think cheap illegal labor is really cheap labor.
        \_ hello jblack (Justin Black), how are you? Is today the
           get angry at all brown people day again?
           \_ Why do the pro-illegal-immigrant people like to equate anti-
              illegal-immigrant opinion with anti-immigrant and even anti-
              minority ones?  -- !jblack
              \_ because the vast majority of "anti-illegal-immigrant" people
                 oppose any attempt to make our immigration laws more sane
                 and thereby reduce the number of "illegal" immigrants.
              \_ 1) It is a handy debating tactic.
                 2) Too often, it is true.
        \_ I know what we need to do, let's start a war and blow up
           $2T in some worthless country, that will help the economy!
2009/5/28-6/3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53056 Activity:kinda low
5/28    Washington Post Correction:
        The May 27 editorial "The President's Pick" incorrectly referred
        to Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor as the daughter of
        "immigrant" parents. Judge Sotomayor's parents were not immigrants
        but were born in Puerto Rico after passage of a 1917 law that
        automatically conferred U.S. citizenship on island-born residents.
        \_ Suck it, bitches!
        \_ You cannot imagine how much I don't care.
           \_ which of course makes you an ignoramus. but you don't care, so
              shut up.
           \_ which of course makes you an ignoramus.
                \_ Not really.  I really do not care where Sotomayor's parents
                   are from.
                   \_ The correction wasn't about her parents. It was about
                      the misuse of the word "immigrant".
        \_ Tell that to Tom Tancredo.
         \_ Or Gordon Libby who is pissed that she speaks "illegal alien".
        \_ The Republican Party will implode in 10..9..8..7..
2009/4/21-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:52885 Activity:kinda low
4/21    Real Per Capita spending in CA budget:
        Note that is is flat, which is the opposite of what we have
        been repeatedly told on the motd.
        \_ Does capita take in account for unaccounted illegal immigrants?
                                                                -Dr. jblack
        \_ So the problem is we have too many deadbeats?  Or a poorly
           designed tax system?
           \_ Or are spending far too much of it on prisons.
           \_ Our inflow is too variable, and the legistlature doesn't want
              to build a rainy day fund. The last time CA had a budget surplus
              of any size, the Jarvis crowd went into a lather and cut taxes
              via initiative, so you can see why they don't want to put anything
              aside. Maybe people have wizened up, but I doubt it.
              via initiative, so you can see why they don't want to put
              anything aside. Maybe people have wizened up, but I doubt it.
        \_ Damn those immigrants!                               -jblack
        \_ This chart is BullShit:
           Spending in nominal $$$ has roughtly doubled from 1997-8 to 2007-8
           Population has risen like 12% in that time.
           I don't know what kind of BS inflation numbers they are using to
           make this work out, but I can tell you that there was not THAT high
           inflation between 1997 and 2007.
           make this work out, but I can tell you that it was not THAT high.
           \_ Given 12% population increase those numbers give me about 1.5x
              per capita increase over 10 years, or about 4%/year.  Seems
              about right.
           \_ It does seem kind of high, but 98 to 08 budget is up 80%, not
              100%. Let me look at the numbers more closely.
2009/3/9-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:52687 Activity:nil
3/9     Border arrests drop to 1970s levels
        \_ Hey look, freeper dude is back. Welcome freeper dude, why did you
           leave for a couple of years there?
           \_ Can't be freeper dude, it's not a non-descriptive URL.
              \_ k, let me replace it with IP and make it "real"
2009/2/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:52603 Activity:nil
2/19    Motd has been boring lately. Where is jblack's "fuck immigrants"
        and "self reliance" freeper drivels?
2008/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:51772 Activity:nil
10/31   This is it baby, the October Surprise we have been waiting for:
        \_ Dittohead Desperation Level: Cosmic
        \_ Awesome, because if that's all there is this thing is over.
        \_ What appened to the swift boat group?
        \_ Leaked by federal law enforcement to a Murdoch newspaper.  Nice.
2008/8/3-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50767 Activity:kinda low
8/3     It is much better to have homogeneous suburbs than diverse cities:
        \_ you know why "It's a small world" is such a happy ride?
           because every race is segregated.. if u mixed them up
           there'd be wars and genocides on that disney ride
           \_ BEST (FUNNY) RESPONSE EVER. Thanks! :)
           \_ I was on that ride a couple times and the only thing I didn't
              like was that the music was too loud.  Never though that the
              whole thing was actually politically incorrect.
        \_ I always knew that diversity is good EXCEPT when Latinos
           and Mexicans are involved. I've lived through LAUSD for
           18 years and things are in fact deteriorating. However, like
           Putnam, I keep this to myself because every Liberal thinks
           diversity regardless of the type of diversity is good.
        \_ I'm not saying this dude's data is bad.  I'm just surprised because
           I think of the places I lived, and the ones that were the most
           souless/didn't know anyone who lived around me were the ones where
           pretty much everyone was the same.  To be fair, I really wasn't
           so maybe the benefit of homogenity only works when you identify
           with the majority?
        \_ I read "The Geography of Happiness" and apparently cultural
           homogeneity is is a big element of societal happiness.
           Homogeneous groups were much more like to be happy groups.
           Some of what this article mentions matches my experience as well.
           Any difference in norms is a potential conflict, so people do often
           hunker down.  I had some Mexican neighbors I liked OK in my old
           house, but we clashed a few times, and I put up with a lot of
           weird crap just because I didn't want to fight about it.  (Who
           keeps a rooster in a highly populated area?)  I got along much
           better with my White neighbors even though I liked the Mexicans
           \_ My amazingly white mormon nneighbors kept a rooster.  And it
           \_ My amazingly white mormon neighbors kept a rooster.  And it
              wasn't in a rural area.
              \_ Doesn't religious diversity count?
              \_ Doesn't religious diversity count?  The problem is cultural
                 homogenaity, not race per se.  In my case one group was
                 Mexican, and the other was CA style white trash.  If you
                 were Mormon, you'd see those guys at church, and it would be
                 pretty easy to find a chance to say, "Hey, your rooster is
                 waking my daughter up at 4 am every morning.  Why do you have
                 rooster?"  If you don't have some sort of common cultural
                 raport, you have no idea how your neighbor will react of your
                 inquiry, and you'll tend to hunker down instead.
                 diverity, not race per se.  If you were Mormon, you would see
                 them at church and it would be easy to ask why they have a
                 rooster waking your daughter at 4am every morning.  With no
                 social/cultural rapport it is much more difficult to
                 predict their reaction, and judge how you should approch the
                 the situaltion.  So people hunker down instead.
                 (Sorry, somebody squished this.)
                 \_ The mormonness is just to point out just how blindingly
                    white they were.  "Step outside and instantly burn on an
                    overcast day" white.
        \_ Racial integration is sex-based.  Until they start screwing each
           other's women and having mixed kids people mostly stick within
           their own ethnic groups.
           Therefore my new liberal government plan is arranged marriages
           between races.
           \_ Is that why I see so many asian chicks with white dudes?
              \_ It's because the Asian chicks are gold-diggers who somehow
                 find prestige in dating white men and those particular white
                 men are too geeky to even try to hook up with hot Nordic
                 blondes but still won't date fat chicks. They produce mongrel
                 children who possess the worst traits of both.
           \_ Are you a Moonie?
2008/7/31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50747 Activity:nil 50%like:50760
7/31    Whaddya Know? Enforcement Works!
2008/7/29-8/3 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50719 Activity:nil
7/29    Monica Goodling and Alberto Gonzalez routinely broke the law
        \_ "young political aide" ... "Goodling, 34".  Wow, 34 is young. I feel
           better now.
           \_ 30 is the new 20.
        \_ They were following a higher law. God Bless!
        \_ Goodling was already granted immunity in return for her
           testimony and Gonzalez will be pardoned. Is it really "breaking
           the law" if you believe you are above the law and have the
           power to get away with it?
           \_ Of course it is. Whether you get punished for it is something
2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:50674 Activity:kinda low
7/24    "Killings turn focus on San Francisco sanctuary law"

        "SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a
        driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and
        preventing another car from turning left.

        But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an
        AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.

        The victims' family learned that Ramos had been arrested at least
        three times before the shooting and evaded deportation, largely
        because of San Francisco's sanctuary status.

        The Bolognas' relatives say Ramos apparently benefited from the policy
        when he reportedly was convicted twice of felonies in 2003 and 2004
        but never was turned over for deportation."
        \_ Are you the same person freaking out over the police state taking
           your guns away?
           \_ No, that was me. This guy is a violent felon who shouldn't have
              been in the country to begin with.  And gun laws don't stop
              criminals from having guns.  It's nearly impossible to legally
              have an AK-47 in CA.
        \_ WHEN did this event happen? July 24th? Or earlier?
           \_ No, this happened a few weeks ago.
        \_ So I'm getting two ideas:
                1) immigrants = BAD!!!
                2) CCW = GOOD!
                \_ 1) Wrong.  ILLEGAL immigrants = BAD.  The sanctuary law in
                   SF is not about legal immigrants.
        \_ People who gridlock intersections deserve to be beaten, but this
           is carrying things a bit too far.
        \_ Fucking stupid US law. This person would be executed by the
           time you read this post in good old China. Human right my
           fucking ass. No wonder your prisons are over crowded,
           because of idiots who insist that it's cheaper to keep
           criminals in Jail than a bullet in the head. Guys like this
           should have their fingers chopped off one by one. -ray
           \_ Well, in CA it IS cheaper to keep them in jail, but that's just
              because anti-death penalty types have made it so.  30 years
              of lawyer fees >>> 60 years of prisoner room and board.
2008/6/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50405 Activity:nil
6/27    Recreate '68! I have to admit, I think this is pretty funny. I hope
        these bozo's totally flop.
2008/6/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50224 Activity:nil
6/10    Slow down everyone!
2008/6/5-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50162 Activity:nil
6/5     It's pretty amazing to read this and think "wow, that was only 42 years
        ago"  http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/meaning-box-722
        42 years ago there was regular rioting in Chicago because of laws
        saying it was illegal to have neighborhoods where you couldn't buy
        a home unless you were white.  That's pretty mind blowing.
         \_ the phrasing of this is interesting.  It is also subtly wrong.
            \_ How so?
2008/4/2-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:49651 Activity:moderate
4/2     New trend: retirees leaving the suburbs for the convenience of
        The City:
        \_ Only in San Francisco. San Francisco is the opposite of
           mainstream America.
           \_ " The Gruens say they represent a national trend: Senior
               citizens, unwilling to live exclusively with their own
               age group, find everything they need (and can afford)
               to age gracefully by selling the family home and moving
               'It's a massive trend!' said Nina. 'It's happening all
               over America, and there's a good reason for it.'"
              \_ I get all my demographic news from Nina Gruen!  She's the
                 \_ do you have a point?
                    \_ Yeah. How the hell would she know?
                       \_ maybe, unlike you, she has investigated the
                          http://www.planetizen.com/node/19780   -tom
                          \_ What does that study mean by 'moving to the
                             cities'? Is Alameda 'a city' by this
                             definition? What about Barstow?
                             \_ Funny how it's always easier to
                                nitpick at other people's data than to
                                come up with some of your own.  -tom
                                \_ That's your entire MOTD modus operandi.
                                   \_ You mean like in this thread, where I
                                      provided direct evidence and you
                                      haven't?  -tom
                                      \_ Where did you post direct evidence
                                         that Nina Gruen did any research
                                         rather than talking out her butt?
                                         \_ are you really this stupid?  -tom
                                            \_ You know, reading this roadkill
                                               of a conversation, it occurred
                                               to me it would be a simple
                                               matter to write an eliza-bot
                                               tom simulator that would fool
                                               most motd readers.
            \_ It is true. We are smarter, richer and more successful
               than elsewhere:
               http://www.csua.org/u/l6x (bizjournals)
        \_ Stop trying to bore me.
2008/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49608 Activity:nil
3/28    The good thing about Obama is that he can use the race card
        to get us out of trouble, like war, recession, immigration, etc.
2008/2/25-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49248 Activity:nil
2/25    Why Obama Hates America
        It's even better than you think.
        \_ Wow, just wow.  Fortunately he's pretty good at responding to this
           \_ I think he prefers tendon, rare steak, brisket, and finally
              tripe in that order.
              \_ There's never a rare steak, brisket, flank combo. Irritating.
                 \_ You obviously don't eat Pho.
        \_ This the magazine that ran the editorial "Why I Hate Blacks"
2008/2/25-29 [Transportation/Bicycle, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49247 Activity:nil
2/25    Hey tom, how did you ever become such a fan of big government
        socialist? Is it from riding bike or hanging out with hippies?
        \_ hey anonymous coward, fuck off.  -tom
           \_ by any chance are you an illegal immigrant sympathizer?
              \_ and why do you hate america?
2008/2/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49111 Activity:nil
2/11    Whites to be minority in US by 2050: study - Yahoo! News:
        Obama can still get minority support after 2050 -- he'll be calling
        himself a white presidential candidate.
        \_ Minority or not plurality?
           \_ Non-plurality: 47%.
            \_ You don't know what plurality means do you?
               \_ Actually, I do, but I'm tired. Plurality at 47%, no majority.
2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49021 Activity:kinda low
1/28    do you think Obama will get sunk by supporting drivers
        licenses for illegal immigrants?
                 \- obama now supported by most famous sunk and drunk driver
                    in the country.
        \_ motd push polling: good or great?
           \_ I wonder. I mean, people who care about that issue (like me) may
              be more concerned about his other policies. The only D candidate
              who didn't openly support that was Dodd, IIRC. -emarkp
              \_ How much of your caring for this issue is wrapped up in the
                 larger question of illegal immigration in general?
2008/1/24-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49007 Activity:high
1/23    Some people want to end birthright citizenship and instead require
        a parent to be a citizen for the baby to automatically be a citizen.
        Most other countries require this.
        Does anyone here think that's a bad idea? If so, why?
        \_ It's a great idea but will not gain traction because a Day
           Without Mexicans will be devastating to the entire economy
           in Southern California.
        \_ I think it's a bad idea. It will create an underclass of
           citizenry (think Rome or Japan).
           \_ Why? There is a clear path to citizenship.
              \_ In Japan there are significant percentages of the population
                 who have lived in the country legally for generations and
                 yet are not citizens.  You think this is a good thing?
                 \_ I don't know about those people or why they are not
                    citizens. It doesn't seem relevant to *illegal* immigrants.
                    \_ The OP said require parents to be citizens.  If parents
                       are legal aliens then they aren't citizens.  The kids
                       then won't be citizens.  And so on.
                       \_ You said in Japan they "lived in the country
                          legally". If the law didn't give them a right
                          to be there then they are not legally living there.
                          If they were deported in the first place then that
                          would not be a problem. That's a choice that exists
                          whether to actually try to enforce the law. You can
                          treat the multigenerational thing as a special case.
                          If we chose to, we would detect almost all the
                          illegals long before that.
                          \_ You can live in a country legally and not
                             be a citizen.
                             \_ In the US, if you have legal permanent
                                residence then you can become naturalized. So
                                \_ You can apply for it and you may or may
                                   not receive it. You may not want to
                                   apply. My dad just applied after living
                                   here for almost 40 years. It's a
                                   ridiculous thought that I'd not be a
                                   citizen under your plan, given I was
                                   born here to legal immigrants and lived my
                                   whole life here.  Further, there is no
                                   guarantee that requirements don't get
                                   more and more difficult. It's a slippery
                                   slope we should not start down.
                                   \_ You will receive it if you qualify.
                                      I know many, many people who were not
                                      born here but whose parents brought
                                      them as a baby. They were not automatic
                                      citizens, they had to be naturalized.
                                      What's wrong with that? And your
                                      slippery slope argument is a slippery
                                      slope argument, i.e. worthless.
                                      \_ You know what is worthless? This
                                         statement: "You will receive it
                                         if you qualify."
                                         \_ Your assertion is worthless.
                                            All these people took the test
                                            or whatever and became citizens.
                                            What's your problem?
                                            \_ Your statement doesn't address
                                               what qualifying entails or
                                               acknowledge that qualifying can
                                               change over time. It's pretty
                                               big to gloss over the "if you
                                               qualify" part. Your ignorance of
                                               citizenship and naturalization
                                               are astounding.
                                               is astounding.
                                               \_ I know what it entails, do
                                                  you? You have to be a legal
                                                  permanent resident, there's a
                                                  time requirement and a basic
                                                  If I'm so ignorant, inform
                                                  \_ They can find a lot
                                                     of excuses to deny you.
                                                     What you are listing
                                                     are the minimum reqs.
                                                   \_ Like what? Do you know
                                                      some examples of people
                                                      getting screwed?
                                                      \_ You don't have a very
                                                         active imagination.
                                                         \_ You don't have a
                                                            \_ I do, but
                                                               you're not
                                                               grasping it.
                                                               Imagine the
                                                               gov't changing
                                                               req'ts for
                                                               some nefarious
                                                               reason. Why
                                                               give them the
                                                               power to deny
                                                               citizenship to
                                                               your kids?
                                              Uh, ok, but that argument _/
                                              applies equally to birthright.
                                              "Imagine the gov't changing
                                              req'ts." You don't have a point.
                                              \_ No, because birthright is
                                                 not an arbitrary set of rules.
                                                 \_ Yes it is.
                                                    \_ No, it is not. It
                                                       is very clear how
                                                       birthright is defined
                                                       and it isn't
                                                       decided by rule.
                                                       \_ Of course it's
                                                          "decided by rule".
                                                          How is inherited
                                                          citizenship unclear?
                                                          \_ It can be
                                                             What if one
                                                             parent is and
                                                             the other
                                                             isn't? What
                                                             about the path to
                                                             for those whose
                                                             parents aren't
                                                             Birthright is
                                                             cut and dry.
                                                           \_ It's exactly as
                                                              cut and dry. It
                                                              only requires one
                                                              parent, this is
                                                              common sense.
                                                              \_ With this
                                                                 you've already
                                                                 an arbitrary
                                                                 rule. Why one
                                                                 and not both?
                                                                 To me
                                                                 is common
                                                                 sense. We
                                                                 all have
                                                                 ideas of
                                                                 common sense.
                                                                 But there's
                                                                 only one way
                                                                 to determine
                                                              What's your pt.
                                                              re: path for
                                                              There is one.
                                                              \_ Explain how it
                                                                 would work in
                                                                 your scheme.
                                                                 We couldn't
                                                                 do exactly
                                                                 what we do
                                                                 now for US-born
                                                               \_ What? US born
                                                                  are citizens.
                                                                  We would do
                                                                  exactly what
                                                                  we do now for
                                                                  ex. parents
                                                                  who bring a
                                                                  kid into the
                                                                  country. That
                                                                  kid is not
                                                                  an auto-ctzn.
                                                                  \_ What reqts
                                                                     And if it
                                                                     is easy
                                                                     to do so
                                                                     then what
                                                                     have you
                                                                     Kids of
                                                                     will just
                                                                     What is to
                                                                     be gained?
                                                          On a side note, what
                                                          would you think of a
                                                          law specifically
                                                          excepting the 14th
                                                          amndmt for children
                                                          of illegal aliens?
                                                          \_ Unconstitutional
                                                             \_ That can be
                                                                changed. Did
                                                                you know there
                                                                actually are
                                                                exceptions to
                                                                the birthright
                                                                clause already?
                                                                \_ Yes. So
                                                                   now you are
                                                                   changing the
                                                                   Any other
                                                                   while you're
                                                                   at it?
                                                        It's been changed _/
                                                        changed before.
                                                        Notably to add the
                                                        birthright thing in
                                                        the 1st place, in the
                                                        context of ending
                                                        slavery where there
                                                        were millions of ppl
                                                        without citizenship
                                                        but who weren't here
                                                        illegally. That's not
                                                        the case now.
                                                        \_ Kind of drastic
                                                        to fuck with the
                                                        Constitution b/c
                                                        you're afraid of
                                your concern is irrelevant. If you aren't
                                here as a permanent resident, then you are
                                supposed to go back where you came from at
                                some point; if not then you are now illegal.
                                \_ No.  Plenty of people become permenant
                                   legal residents and never become citizens.
                                   You have no idea what you are talking about.
                                   \_ Might want to check your reading
                                      comprehension because I never claimed
                                \_ Technically, you're only illegal once your
                                   visa runs out.
                                   \_ Yes.
                          \_ Many Korean nationals have near-permanent visas
                             in Japan. Their children are still considered
                             Korean nationals, no matter how assimilated they
                             become. The process of attaining citizenship in
                             Japan is arduous and purposefully designed to
                             discourage; Japan much prefers having a legal
                             immigrant population that can be exploited for
                             labor and deported when it causes trouble. My
                             wife's best friend in college (Kansai GaiDai) was
                             of Korean descent (3rd generation) and the first
                             in her family to become Japanese. She spoke no
                             Korean and was utterly assimilated. --erikred
                             \_ Ok but that's not the case here. What is
                                \_ She's a 3rd generation immigrant to Japan.
                                   Near-permanent means her grandparents have
                                   in Japan all of her life and most of their
                                   kids' lives.
                                   \_ I mean, what kind of visa is "near-
                                      permanent"? They have some kind of
                                      weird multigenerational visa? Or were
                                      the grandparents supposed to go home
                                      and didn't?
                                      \_ I don't know what it's called. They
                                         have been in Japan legally.
                                      \_ It is not that unusual. I know they
                                         had the same issue in Germany with
                                         some Turks that moved there in the
                                         50s and now have some kids that had
                                         been born and raised in Germany, were
                                         now adults and didn't even speak
                                         Turkish, and were being asked to
                                         move back. Eventually, they were
                                         mostly made Germans though.
              \_ There is? Can it change? It's a step in the wrong direction.
                 \_ For legals there is. Reducing illegal immigration is the
                    wrong direction?
                    \_ Being born here is legal immigration, not illegal.
                       \_ I refer to the parents of course.
                    \_ It sounds like what you're really interested in is
                       preventing people from entering illegally, having kids
                       here, then demanding legal status because they now have
                       a kid who was born here; there are other ways to handle
                       this apart from removing birthright citizenship.
                       \_ Like what?
                          \_ You could deport them, for one.
                             \_ What about people who enter legally
                                (say, on a visitor's visa) just to have the
                                child in the US?
                                \_ Now see, that just sounds like an
                                   unfortunate and inevitable yet mostly
                                   negligible outcome. Note that the citizen-
                                   ship of the child wouldn't prevent you
                                   from sending parents and child back home
                                   when parents' visa expired, and then the
                                   parents would have to apply for visas or
                                   citizenship themselves through the normal
                                   \_ Can you legally deport a US citizen?
                                      (the kid). Also, immigrants often seem
                                      to be able to get their family members
                                      legally into the country. Why not just
                                      end the birthright citizenship?
                                      \_ You can legally send the kid home
                                         with its parents. Also, that's not
                                         necessarily a bad thing, and you can
                                         strengthen immigration controls if
                                         you want to control the entry you
                                         seem to be talking about. Why throw
                                         away something that's not broken
                                         when there are other, less drastic
                                         measures available?
                                         \_ The point is it is broken. The
                                            world is different than it was
                                            in the 1800s. Getting born is
                                            not a reasonable immigration path.
                                            \_ You have yet to demonstrate that
                                               it's broken. You're saying that
                                               a part of it is broken, not the
                                               whole thing. Citizenship by
                                               birthplace is an incentive for
                                               parents to want to legally
                                               come to the States, giving us
                                               a large pool of potential
                                               applicants to work in and
                                               contribute to our country; if
                                               our procedure for catching ppl
                                               abusing the system doesn't work,
                                               let's change that.
                                              \_ The way it actually works is as
                                                 an incentive to illegally come
                                                 here to give birth. Or legally
                                                 come here temporarily and give
                                                 birth, thereby doing an end
                                                 run of the usual procedures.
                                                 See, it's a valuable thing to
                                                 have even if it can't be used
                                                 until the kid is an adult. I
                                                 am just pointing out that it
                                                 doesn't make sense to grant
                                                 citizenship solely on
                                                 birthplace with no other tie
                                                 to this country. What's the
                                                 \_ If someone born here
                                                    doesn't have rights as
                                                    a citizen then who does?
                                                    I think your fears
                                                    (people coming here to
                                                    have babies) are unfounded
                                                    and, even if true, what's
                                                    the concern? That there
                                                    will be more Americans?
                                                    That's bad?
                                                    \_ 1) Someone born to a
                                                       citizen does
                                                       2) taxpayer drain
                                                       \_ What do you mean
                                                          "taxpayer drain"?
                                                          Everyone pays taxes,
                                                          citizen or not. Do
                                                          you think they would
                                                          "drain less" if they
                                                          were LPRs and not
                                                        \_ I mean they are poor
                                                           and don't pay taxes,
                                                           and use public svcs.
                                                           \_ There are plenty
                                                              of poor citizens
                                                              and wealthy LPRs.
                                                              Why not an
                                                              income reqt
                                                              for citizenship?
                                                             \_ Why not end
                                                                \_ Doesn't
                                                                   seem to
                                                                   concerns as
                                                                   well as an
                                                                   income reqt.
                                        You misunderstand my concerns then. _/
                                        Do you support unlimited immigration?
                                        \_ I thought your concern is stated
                                           above as "taxpayer drain". No?
                                           Yes, I support legal immigration.
                                           It is what made this country so
                                           great. "Unlimited" is a word I
                                           am not sure I want to touch.
                                           It's a word like "all" or "never".
                                           \_ My concern is that simply being
                                              born in the US doesn't strike me
                                              as a reasonable path to ctznship.
                                              Place of birth has no inherent
                                              meaning anymore. You said it is
                                              an incentive for people to come
                                              legally. How so? The birthright
                                              thing happens if they are legal
                                              or not. I also don't understand
                                              your vague aspersions against
                                              the naturalization process.
                                              If that is broken then that
                                              should be fixed.
                                              \_ It is an incentive because
                                                 immigrants consider the
                                                 effects of their immigration
                                                 on their children. Would
                                                 you like to move somewhere
                                                 and maybe take up permenant
                                                 residence somewhere where
                                                 your kids, who were born
                                                 and grew up there, would
                                                 have 2nd-class status?
                                                \_ 1) we don't actually have a
                                                   shortage of people.
                                                   2) they would not have 2nd
                                                   class status, they could
                                                   become citizens if they
                                                   3) it's the way it works
                                                   in most other countries,
                                                   so it's not a "competitive
                                                   disadvantage". Our natural-
                                                   ization process is already
                                                   very easy compared to many
                                                   \_ The merits of birth-
                                                      right are not the issue;
                                                      what's at issue is the
                                                      problem you've pointed
                                                      out vis-a-vis ppl gaming
                                                      the system. The approp.
                                                      response is to fix the
                                                      holes, not tear down the
                                                      entire dam.
                                                    \_ But it is the issue. The
                                                       other issues are just
                                                       part of the picture and
                                                       symptoms of the under-
                                                       lying issue. It's a very
                                                       simple concept: instead
                                                       of Where, make it Who.
                                                       status = parent.status()
                                                       The only reasonable
                                                       argument I can think of
                                                       is that a child of
                                                       illegal immigrants
                                                       inherits illegal status
                                                       through no fault of his
                                                       own. But I'm ok with
                                                       that because it should
                                                       discourage parents from
                                                       doing that. Also it's
                                                       not worth distinguishing
                                                       from someone illegally
                                                       bringing a kid here,
                                                       and someone birthing one
                                                       \_ Your energy is wasted
                                                          on this. Focus on
                                                          finding solutions,
                                                          not throwing out the
                                                          working system.
                                                        \_ It is a solution. In
                                                           all our blathering
                                                           you never made any
                                                           counterargument that
                                                           makes any sense.
                                                           \_ Make it
                                                              Why not?
                                \_ 1) why should the kid be a citizen if
                                his parents just happened to be on US soil?
                                2) if you deport the parents, what do you do
                                   with their citizen kid?
                                \_ 1) Incentive for parents to want to follow
                                   legal immigration system.
                                   2) Send the kid home with them. Citizenship
                                   is not usually actually conferred until
                                   majority; until then, they fall under their
                                   parents' status.
        \_ How about requiring a parent, or the mother, to be legally here
           (green card and all sorts of visas) instead of to be a citizen?
           \_ That would be better than nothing I guess. I don't see why
              the kid should be a citizen though.
              \_ Amnesty maybe.  I don't think the kid should be granted
                 citizenship either.  If it's up to me, for the green card
                 case the kid should be granted green card; for all other
                 cases, nothing.  I don't think this idea would be popular
                 though.  -- PP
2008/1/14-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:48940 Activity:nil
1/14    36-year-old state governor!
        I'm one year older and I'm goofing off browsing Yahoo at work. :-(
        \_ Same here, but on the plus side I don't live in Louisiana
        \_ you got the better end of that deal.
2007/11/22-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48682 Activity:nil
11/21   "...we're not focused on any of the election cycle," Aytes said. USCIS
        spokesman Bill Wright emphasized that political calculations played
        no role in agency decisions. "Any implication of that is ludicrous,"
2007/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48233 Activity:nil
10/3    Secessionists meeting in Tennessee
2007/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:48232 Activity:high
10/3    Jimmy Carter faces down Darfur officials
        He bravely ran away, away!
        \_ Would you kindly fuck off, you cowardly piece of shit? The man
           is 83 years old, and he got in a shouting match with armed men.
           His companions and the Secret Service convinced him to get in the
           car rather than continue the confrontation. If you're going to
           post something, have the nards and decency to read it first.
           \_ I did read it.  He didn't "face them down" they faced him down.
              Nothing really wrong with that, I'd leave too, but the headline
              is wrong.
           \_ Seconded.  Running away would be just scrapping the whole
              deal and not trying again.  In the real world you can't
              go on a humanitarian mission and shout your way past angry
              men with big guns.  That doesn't do any good for anyone.
              But feel free to live in your fantasy world where everything
              gets solved by swinging your big dick around and all the women
              have gravity defying 36DD breasts.
              \_ In my fantasy world, all the women have gravity-defying 32DD
                 breasts instead. -- !PP
        \_ I had the same reaction as the person above, "Hey, Carter may not
           be the POS I thought he was.. read.. read.. oh well".
        \_ He displayed infinitely more personal courage than Bush did
           after 9/11, when the Commander-In-Chief turned tail and
           disappeared into a hole.
           \_ If the President, any President, of any party, showed up at
              ground zero just to pose for the cameras, he deserves to die.
              That is the most assinine and stupid gripe you could possibly
              have.  It is the one thing that he clearly did right that day.
              \_ Did I say he should have gone to ground zero? No, I did not.
                 He could have provided some leadership though, instead of
                 being a coward.
2007/9/23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48154 Activity:nil
9/23    Alberto Fujimori: Wanted in Peru? Vacation in Chile!
        (Summary: Extradited to Peru, now under arrest.)
2007/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48153 Activity:nil
9/23    Alberto Fujimori: Extradited
2007/9/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:48040 Activity:nil
9/12    immigration by numbers
2007/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47952 Activity:moderate
9/8     I summon: emarkp !
        remember the heroic border patrol agents who shot the drug
        dealer in the butt as her was running away?  You can read
        facts about the case here:
        \_ My predicted response from emarkp:
           "I don't respond to anonymous cowards."
           \_ I think that is tom's mo, not emarkp
            \_ I may be anonymous, but I would be interested in hearing
               a self described conservative's opinion on the whole case.
               Notice I'm not asking him his opinion on Mormon bathed
               in blood axe murders or if he got a good deal on golden
               plates at the last Wal-Mart sale.  Not trolling, just
               \_ Based on historical records, there is a 92% chance
                  that he'll respond with "Hi anonymous troll!  -emarkp"
                  \_ Why should he respond to someone calling him out?
                     He has no responsibility.  If you really want to chat
                     seriously with him, send him email.
                  \_ Typically I don't like responding to anonymous people
                     calling me out by name.  However, I've been fairly
                     strongly opinionated on this topic so my response is
                     below. -emarkp
        \_ my opinion:  they missed and should have been aiming about 18"
           higher.  -not emarkp anonymous coward
        \_ I'll take a look at it, but I've already read a substantial portion
           of the trial transcripts.  -emarkp
           \_ Okay, I've read the first paragraph and it's full of crap.  Ramos
              said in his own testimony that he reported the shooting over the
              radio.  Yet the article says, "Neither agent announced the
              shooting over the radio or informed his supervisor of what had
              happened; the official report about the pursuit made no mention
              of their firing their weapons."
              Oops.  Bad reporting. -emarkp
           \_ More bad reporting:
              "The bullet was removed by Army doctors at Fort Bliss, and
              ballistics tests showed that it had been fired from Ramos.s
              handgun, which investigators had taken under the guise of
              performing a firearms audit. That night, federal agents arrested
              Ramos and Compean at their homes on assault charges."
              The bullet was fragmented.  They couldn't match the agent's gun.
              \_ http://www.csua.org/u/jh4
                "In truth, defense attorneys ---- and Ramos himself ----
                 signed a document agreeing that the bullet came from
                 Ramos' gun."
                 Is that true?
                 \_ He should have used a shotgun.
                 \_ I'm not aware of that one.  However this *does* contradict
                    the claim by the other article that the bullet was matched.
2007/8/7-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47551 Activity:nil
8/7     the most honest, ethical, and open Congress in history
        \_ Straw man.
2007/8/6-22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47538 Activity:nil
8/5     How the HB1B Visa program really works:
        \_ "H-1B"
        \_ Common knowledge. So what are you gonna do?
        \_ Is this a hoax?
           \_ http://www.cohenlaw.com/attorneys-81.html
        \_ If all these were true, why would an exployer go through all these
           trouble and the associated expenses (attorney fees, HR expense, time
           for managers to inverview those "very qualifed" candidates) just to
           hire an H-1B worker?  What's the upside for the employer?
           hire an H-1B worker?  What's the upside for the employer?  (Unless
           those employers are all trying to hire their friends and relatives.)
           \_ (a) the H-1B is usually pretty qualified for the job
              (b) it's difficult for the H-1B to leave - you obviously have not
              seen firsthand the desperation of an H-1B trying to push the
              green card process forward with their employer
              (c) better leverage over the H-1B because of (b)
              \_ Regarding (b), on the contrary I was under the H-1B visa
                 myself a decade ago.  --- PP
2007/6/28-7/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47105 Activity:nil
6/28    "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" defeated in Senate.  Visit your
        favorite biased news source for details.
2007/6/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47078 Activity:nil
6/26    Another RINO joins the Defeatocrats:
        \_ How long will the conversion process take for every Republican
           to become a "RINO"?
2007/6/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47009 Activity:moderate
6/19    ABC News reports that average height in USA is shrinking (relative to
        other countries).  They mention health care, but fail to mention
        \_ "Researchers said that one reason for Denmark's top ranking could
           be that the Dutch health-care system provides better care to
           children ..."  What does the Dutch health-care system have to do
           with people in Denmark???  (And this is coming from a big media
        \_ "Researchers said that one reason for Denmark's top ranking could be
           that the Dutch health-care system provides better care to children
           ..."  What does the Dutch health-care system have to do with people
           in Denmark???  (And this is coming from a big media company.)
           \_ They are just being clueless.  It is true that Dutch people are
              fucking huge.  I'm 5'9" and everyone towers over me when I
              fucking huge.  I'm 5'9" and everyone towers over me when I visit.
           \_ Are Dutch chicks fucking huge too?  That sounds really hot.
            \_ Do they have huge tits?  Really tall with huge tits would
               be hot.
            \_ Do they have huge tits?  Really tall chicks who look like
               eric with huge tits would be hot.
               \_ double EE cups
                   i wonder if she is Danish?
                  i wonder if she is Dutch?
            \_ Do they have huge tits?  Really tall chicks who look like eric
               with huge tits would be hot.
               \_ double EE cups i wonder if she is Dutch?
                  \_ Which Euro country has the biggest tits?
                  \_ HOT!!  Real or fake?
               \_ I once had a Danish female co-worker and she was hawt. She
                  was average height, though.
                 \_ DUTCH, fool.  The Netherlands and Daneland are different places.
                \_ I had sex once with a girl who's grandparents were
                   from the Netherlands.  Goddamn.
                  \_ DUTCH, fool.  The Netherlands and Deutchland are
                     different places.
                \_ I had sex once with a girl who's grandparents were from the
                   Netherlands.  Goddamn.
                 \_ I found a cartoon about hot Dutch girls.
                  \_ DUTCH, fool.  The Netherlands and Deutchland are different
                     \_ NO SHIT, asshole. The dude who said "Dutch" got it
                        \_ fuck YOU dutch nazi appeaser.
                           I read Diary Of Anne Frank
                           i am onto you
                        wrong, not me. Denmark is the country with the huge
                        people. The Netherlands is the place with the health
                        care system.
                        \_ fuck YOU dutch nazi appeaser.  I read Diary Of Anne
                           Frank i am onto you wrong, not me. Denmark is the
                           country with the huge people. The Netherlands is the
                           place with the health care system.
                         \_ I AM fucking Dutch, the Dutch are huge (but I am
                            The Danish may be tall too, but my relatives tell
                            me the Dutch are the tallest in Europe.
                            not) The Danish may be tall too, but my relatives
                            tell me the Dutch are the tallest in Europe.
                            \_ I'm Danish and 7'. My greatgrandmother was
                               Danish and 5'. Height is a function of genes and
                               diet. --erikred
                \_ Dutch chicks are tall, have huge tits and great bodies from
                   riding their bicycles everywhere, which they show off in
                   tight spandex pants. They hate the suburbs though :-(
                   \_ are there suburbs in dutchland?
                        \_ There are plenty of then in the netherlands, yes
                           My aunt & uncle just moved from the suburbs of
                           Amsterdam to the city.
           \_ And chernobyl
        \_ It also failed to mention too many video games and too much TV.
        \_ I absolutely agree that this has to do with immigration. Have you
           ever walked around the Mission District? I'm only 5'7" but I feel
           like a giant there.
           \_ You're all short. --erikred
        \_ What about average penis size in USA relative to other countries?
2007/6/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46991 Activity:nil
6/15    How unpatriotic Dems plan to kill the American auto industry:
2007/6/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46887 Activity:nil
6/7     Check out the top story on http://news.yahoo.com right now. What kind
        of "news" is that???
        \_ immigration bill fails crucial vote?
                \_ I'm referring to the "Krumping", as reported by the
                   Yahoo! Underground team.
                   \_ Krump! Trends sell man
           \_ LibDems block critical reforms championed by President and
              Commander-In-Chief Bush. Don't they understand how this
              encourages the enemy?
2007/5/25-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46746 Activity:nil
5/25    Hazleton PA mayor fighting illegal immigration won the primary for
        both parties by massive amounts.
2007/5/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46709 Activity:moderate 72%like:46685
5/18    Freepers, um, "respond" to immigration plan
        http://urltea.com/l9i (wonkette.com)
        \_ Is this the move that will drop his approval ratings to sub-Nixon
           \_ You're not thinking far enough ahead.  All but one of the
              2008 R candidates has come out against this bill.  This will
              fire up the base and enable them to rant and rave about how
              THEY wouldn't have sold the country down the river for them
              damn Mexicans if THEY had been President.  This is a parting
              gift from Dubya for em.
              \_ Ezra Klein has a good take
                 http://csua.org/u/iq0 (prospect.org)
           \_ It's still above congress' approval.  However, "the base" that
              will leave Bush has already done so.  I can't imagine it'd go
              \_ With a slip of 6% in rasmussen's daily poll, i expect to
                 see 25% in other polls by the end of the month. 22% by
                 july 4?
        \_ There are no Freepers on the motd.  We used to have one and then we
           had several fakes and now we fortunately have none.
           \_ No, I think we had two. But yeah, they rarely post anymore.
              \_ $freeper++.  I stand corrected.  :-)
2007/5/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46685 Activity:low 72%like:46709
5/18    Freepers, um, "respond" to immigration plan
        \_ Is this the move that will drop his approval ratings to sub-Nixon
           \_ You're not thinking far enough ahead.  All but one of the
              2008 R candidates has come out against this bill.  This will
              fire up the base and enable them to rant and rave about how
              THEY wouldn't have sold the country down the river for them
              damn Mexicans if THEY had been President.  This is a parting
              gift from Dubya for em.
              \_ Ezra Klein has a good take
                 http://csua.org/u/iq0 (prospect.org)
           \_ It's still above congress' approval.  However, "the base" that
              will leave Bush has already done so.  I can't imagine it'd go
        \_ There are no Freepers on the motd.  We used to have one and then we
           had several fakes and now we fortunately have none.
2007/5/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46587 Activity:nil
5/11    The Dark Side of Diversity by Pat Buchanan
        http://csua.org/u/io9 (townhall)
        I always knew Pat Buchanan was a crank, but this reaches
        whole new levels.
        \_ He's an isolationist, and has been for a long time.
        \_ IOW: "I never liked Pat and disagree with everything he says so
           I'm posting a random link that is mostly just a list of non-citizens
           who have gone on killing sprees and then delcaring him a crank in
           an effort to troll the motd".
           \- pat robertson is a good example of "if you put one foot in ice
              water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
           \- patrick buchanan is a good example of "if you put one foot in
              ice water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
              fallacy. i think he's reasonable and insightful about many things
              and has made some astute predictions [these arent about his
              opinions but his ability to make predictions, so that's a
              skill, if you will], but he certainly has some reprehensible
              views which dont get "averaged out" ... although he isnt
              any where close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
              anywhere close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
2007/5/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46540 Activity:high
5/6     Mon Dieu, Sarkozy wins:
        http://urltea.com/i89 (cnn.com)
        \_ I told you CONSERVATISM is spreading throughout the world and
           nothing is going to stop it! Privatization, pro-business, less
           tax, less immigrants, tough on crime, less communism, less
           social programs, & more self reliance!
        \_ A surprise, I know.  What do you think of the result?
           \_ Freedom Fries! Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys! Acck! Phht!
2007/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46512 Activity:high
5/2     Asian men are crazy:
        \_ That was about the most useless interview imaginable.
           \_ Was it Hoyt Sze?
              \_ I guess I don't get the reference.  I see from google
                 he's some kind of anti-whitey, but does he give crappy
                 \_ He's a former Daily Cal reporter, and a legend in his
                    own mind.
                 \_ http://www.modelminority.com/article269.html
                    "Interracial dating between white men and Asian women
                    undermines the integrity of Asian America."
                    \_ http://urltea.com/hj7 (youtube.com)
                       \_ Quite funny, thanks.
        \_ Hello racist troller! Don't forget they are also good at math!
           http://urltea.com/hde (nomorequo.blogspot.com)
2007/4/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46322 Activity:nil
4/16    Why are the VT shootings being described as "worst in US history"
        by the media?  This seems like useless hyperbole where none is needed,
        and besides:
        \_ well, wikipedia says worst "civilian" shooting in U.S. history
        \_ The TV news says it's the worst "school shooting" in US history.
2007/3/28-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46124 Activity:nil
3/28    Dr. Kevin MacDonald Discusses U.S. Immigration Policy Issues
2007/3/22-24 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46054 Activity:nil
3/22    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1804868/posts
        Lax immigration hurts the poor
        \_ This is about as vanilla as freeper posts get. I expect this was
           posted by a non-freeper who couldn't stomach digging deeper, not
           that I blame you.
2007/2/23-26 [Finance/CC, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45807 Activity:nil
2/23    B of A starts offering credit cards to people w/o SSN:
        That's strange.  My dad got a B of A credit card in 1980 when he
        didn't have an SSN and was on a work visa in the Bay Area.  Today he
        still doesn't have an SSN and is still using the card overseas
2006/12/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Industry/Jobs] UID:45484 Activity:nil
12/21   I guess those *aren't* jobs Americans won't do:
        \_ Yes, just like there's a purported shortage of engineers, PhDs, etc.
2006/12/19-26 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45468 Activity:nil
12/19   Huh?  The Governor says the "hidden tax" of paying for health treatment
        of illegals should be replaced by....an open tax.  How will this
        improve things?
        \_ Full cost accounting. You can see where the money is going and
           decide to increase/decrease it and how. When it's hidden, you
           have no control over it. I think that if people knew the true
           costs of illegal immigrants then they can make informed
           decisions. As it is now, all we have are vague estimates and
           debate over whether illegals help or hurt the economy.
           \_ What's stupid about this though is that it's not like there's
              going to be an "illegal immigrants who consume health treatment
              tax dollars revenue fund".
           \_ Given the number of emergency rooms which have closed, I don't
              thing there's a debate.
              \_ Sure there is. Are they contributing elsewhere (e.g.
                 lower prices on goods and services)? Do the pluses
                 outweigh the minuses? One way is to start openly tracking
                 this stuff.
                 \_ Of course, the Gov. said this was a drag on the economy, so
                    you're making a different argument than he is.
                    \_ Someone said there's no debate. I disagree with
                       this. I didn't 'make an argument' other than that
                       the benefits of illegal immigrants are debatable.
2006/11/14-25 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45340 Activity:nil
11/14   http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/11/13/ap3170519.html
        Immigrants charged with being terror suspects may be held indefinitely,
        with no right to challenge their detention.
2006/11/12 [Computer/SW/P2P, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45332 Activity:nil
11/12   Anyone know of a way to watch the rights restricted content on the
        BBC' s Torchwood website. (UK only). The episodes that area already on
        BitTorrent are HIGHLY  reccomended but definitely not for the kiddies.
        Think of X-files and CSI crossed with a healthy dose of Sopranos and
        you will get my drift. With lots and lots of DR Who tie-ins along with
        some really really good eye candy.
2006/11/6-7 [Computer/SW/Editors, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45202 Activity:low
11/6    Poll: How are you avoiding kchang's identifier on
        http://csua.com/24/?incr=1 ? I'll start:
        scp: .
        cp, vi, cp: .
        it's wrong most of the time (at least for my posts), so why care?: ..
        Didn't know kchange was back: .
        \_ man, kchang's message is out of date
           "WARNING: Random aliases shown are solely for the purpose of
           entertainment. Real logins, as well as randomized names really
           didn't post these messages."
        \_ I always launch my editor (Vim) when I login to soda and load the
           motd into the buffer.  When I write to the motd, I load my comment
           into a buffer, reload the motd and then write the change.  Since I'm
           always running the editor, kchang nearly always flags me as a a
           possibility.  Thus my actual comments are lost in the noise. -emarkp
        \_ I don't give a rat's ass.  -John
        \_ I don't give a man's ass.  -John
        \_ I don't give yermom's ass.  -John
2006/11/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45197 Activity:nil
11/6    http://safercolorado.org/initiative_language
        I don't get it.  Where are people supposed to obtain these now-legal
        < 1oz quantities of marijuana?  This feels like legalizing employment
        of illegal immigrants while keeping undocumented immigration illegal.
        \_ They aren't supposed to.  It's a symptom of the public having
           a split opinion on the issue.  The net effect is a half-assed bill.
        \_ They can't buy it, but if it is found on someone's person they
           can't get arrested/have their car taken from them/etc.
           \_ You're missing the point.  "Legal to own but (effectively) illegal
              to aquire" is stupid.
              \_ Grow?  -John
2006/10/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44783 Activity:kinda low
10/12   So given that Schwarzenegger is going to win reelection, how do you
        plan to vote?  As a conservative who thinks R's are now useless and am
        interested in securing the border, I'm going to be voting for the
        Libertarian candidate, Art Olivier (electart.com). -emarkp
        \_ God, emarkp, don't you get it?  the issue is illegal immigration,
           not border security!   right now border is not secure because
           there is a huge incentive for them to get acrossed without much
           downside.   To REALLY address the problem, we need to either
           remove the incentive, and/or increase the disincentive.
           If you REALLY want to solve the problem, PUNISH THE EMPLOYERS
           SEVERELY for hiring illegal immigrants.  *BUT* that is against
           the core GOP's platform of corporate welfare.    The entire
           issue of "illegal immigrant" is actually an issue of "corporate
           welfare,"  as corporations can exploit cheap labors without mandated
           benifits, and push the cost of illegal immigrants to the government
           (schools, emergency care, etc).  If you want a sensible immigration
           policy, then, write your GOP congressman and push for punishment
           for the employer.   If you just want to use this issue to win
           elections, just keep secure the border, then.
                                kngharv, bitter legal immigrant
           \_ Now is the time for the Invisible Hand to point out that if the
              U.S. didn't spend so much effort imposing unfair trade agreements
              on Mexico which destroy the livlihoods of Mexican farmers there
              would not be so much motivation for people to migrate north
              and this problem would be much smaller.
           \_ FYI, I'm currently working on a research project re
              employer punishment statutes for my con. law prof.
              He is concerned that one possible challenge to these
              statutes is that the states lack the power to enact
              them b/c any enactment related to immigration is
              exclusively w/in the power of the fed. gov, therefore
              the states, even in the absence of fed. action, lack
              the power to act in this field.
              I'm not sure, but I think that the states can argue that
              in the absence of fed action (or expressed inaction), they
              can enact these laws, even though they are related to
              immigration policy.
              \_ If you're a law student then surely you know about the
                 10th Amendment. I don't think the Constitution mentions
                 immigration at all. Correct me if I am wrong. Therefore,
                 this is a matter for the States.
                 \_ Under Art I, Sec 8 cl 4 Congress has the
                    power to "establish an uniform rule of
                    naturalization." This power has been viewed
                    very broadly by courts to touch on all aspects
                    of immigration law and policy. In addition,
                    Art I, Sec 8 cl 3 and Art I, Sec 10 further
                    limit what states can do in the field of
                    foreign affairs.
                    Since the Const. has expressly delegated
                    the immigration and naturalization power to
                    Congress, the 10th does not apply.
                    Even if the immigration clause didn't exist
                    there is a STRONG argument under US v. Curtis-
                    Wright Corp. that the regulation of immigration
                    is a power so closely tied w/ national
                    sovereignty that the states are barred from
                    acting in that area.
                    Also re the 10th - it is basically useless.
                    Also re the 10th - it is basically meaningless.
                    All it says is that powers not delegated are
                    reserved. Well, if the power was not delegated
                    it would necessarily be reserved. In addition,
                    the 10th does not require EXPRESS delegation.
                    Implicit delegation is also sufficient. As in
                    Curtis-Wright, it only applies to powers that
                    the states actually had before the Const. If
                    the states didn't have the power, then it can't
                    be reserved.
                    the states (or the people) didn't have the power,
                    then it can't be reserved.
        \_ I plan to vote in my home state, where we don't even have a
        \_ You could do what my friend did and bake a lot of muffins
           and go to the borderand hang out with the Minutemen
           \_ If I lived further south, I would.  But I was asking about the
              election. -emarkp
        \_ Who cares.  Schawarzanegger is going to win.  The Propositions
           are more interesting.  What do you feel about Prop 90?
           \_ There's an election or something soon right?
        \_ I'm voting for Schwarzenegger, even though I think that the
           GOP on a national level is really messed up. I think that
           by supporting sane GOP candiates like McCain and Ah-nuld,
           we can rid the party of the wackos.
           \_ What principles of the GOP platform do you think the gov.
              believes in? -emarkp
              \_ Who gives a shit anyway. a) 3rd parties can't win. b) with
                 two parties, political values only loosely map onto the two
                 candidates we get stuck with. Sometimes I wish we were
                 parliamentary like the Euros. But then the fundies would
                 probably have even more power.
                 \_ a) is incorrect at the state level.  The examples that
                    come immediately to mind are Jesse Ventura and Loell
                    Weicker.  Not common, but not insignificant either.
2006/10/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44689 Activity:high 80%like:44687
10/5    Once again Liberals try to stop speech they don't like:
        \_ Do you understand the difference between a stupid crowd trying to
           shut up someone they don't like and people trying to pass laws to
           limit the freedom of speech?
           \_ The op didn't say it was a government action.  Op said it was
              "Liberals".  Do you understand that Liberals are not the
              government?  Ok, this part is just too funny, "An hour before
              Messrs. Stewart and Mr. Gilchrist took the stage, rowdy protests
              began outside the auditorium on Broadway, where activists
              chanted, "Hey, hey, ho, ho, the Minutemen have got to go!"
              \_ The argument is classically phrased as "liberals _claim_ that
                 they support freedom of speech, but..." and I'm pointing out
                 that there's a difference between stupid crowds and people
                 actually voting away our rights, which is what the
                 conservatives (who are the government, atm) have been doing.
                 \_ [sorry, restored, i was too fast on the Save button and
                     smushed your post].  The first point remains.  Liberals
                    do claim and it isn't true.  We call that "hypocritical".
                    My favorite rant was the folks chanting "no free speech
                    for fascists!" on Sproul's steps.  Talk about "not
                    getting it".  Sheesh.
                    \_ Those were almost certainly communists, who are not
                       \_ Uh... you're just joking, right?
                          \_ I'd ask if you're really this dumb, but I know
                             the answer, so I'll just tell you to go fuck
                             \_ Thanks.  You have answer all my questions.
                                Not with the answers you think you have but
                                thanks for making it so clear.  Or maybe you
                                just didn't read the article.
                                \_ They actually were Communists on Sproul.
                                   Are you really this dense that you think
                                   liberal==Communist? -!op
                                   \_ I was there on Sproul that day.  They
                                      were not Communists although they may
                                      have been communists and they were
                                      definitely liberal and Liberal.  Anytime
                                      you'd like to toss out a fact instead of
                                      a personal attack, I'll be here.  Have a
                                      nice day.
                                      \_ You mean the David Irving protest?
                                         I was there that day and the protest
                                         was organized by the Revolutionary
                                         Communist Party, who are Communists.
                                         The Spartacus League, which is also
                                         Communist, uses the slogan as well.
                                         Those are the facts, which do not
                                         fit your neat worldview, so you just
                                         resort to attacking me personally. Sad.
                                         fit your neat worldview.
                                         \_ No I dont mean the David Irving
                                            protest.  I mean the day a bunch
                                            of nutty people wanted everyone
                                            to clap for peace.  Your facts
                                            are unrelated to what I was
                                            talking about.
                    \_ Hah!  That's awesome.  Now if they were trying to make
                       a point about facism and its relation to free speech,
                       I might be able to respect their intentional irony, but
                       I don't actually expect they were that witty.  Sigh.
                       People suck.  They can be as hypocritical as they want
                       in personal discourse, but when they start legislating
                       stupidity, then I'm really pissed off.
                       \_ They weren't that witty or ironic.  The rest of it
                          was something about how we gathered there should
                          clap our hands for peace to create good vibes
                          because: Sproul leads the campus, the campus leads
                          the Bay Area which leads the State which leads the
                          Nation which leads the World.  Thus by creating good
                          peace vibes there on Sproul that day we could spread
                          World Peace around the planet.
                          \_ Actually, Good Vibrations is down on San Pablo.
                             \_ Imagine how peaceful the planet would be if
                                they opened a store in the student union bldg
                                right there on sproul plaza!  I have discovered
                                the formula for World Peace!  You saw it here
                                \_ Not until we get rid of religious
                                   \_ Greetings Humorless Person!
2006/10/5 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44687 Activity:nil 80%like:44689
10/5    Once again Liberals fight against speech they don't like:
2006/9/23-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:44512 Activity:nil
9/23    Dems want to squander money on immigrants and Negros:
        \_ This message brought to you by the Association of Pure White
           Brotherhood and Justin P Black
           \_ No one responded to your original troll so you responded to
              yourself.  Lame, lame, lame....
2006/9/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44504 Activity:kinda low
9/22    It turns out if illegals didn't pick our produce, the price wouldn't
        change much. (Seattle Times)
        \_ Price has nothing to do with it.  It is unethical and immortal to
           pay people what illegals get paid.
        \_ My interpretation of the data is that the difference in cost is
           17 cents, but builder profit is 12 cents.
           17% more expensive is pretty huge, much more than "a few thousand"
        \_ No kidding. Do you think Mexicans are picking the produce in
           France, too? California has a lot of illegals willing to do
           construction and we actually pay more for that sort of work
           than most other states. Having a Mexican maid at the Four
           Seasons didn't exactly slash my hotel bill either.
           \_ No, Africans do, as in Spain.  Germany and the UK?  Eastern
              Europeans.  -John
        \_ As long as there is work in America and no work in Mexico and
           Central America, I'll make sure people keep on coming.  The border
           is thousands of miles long, and there will always be holes no matter
           how much money you throw at the problem.  c.f. The War on Drugs.
             --the invisible hand
           \_ Start slapping employers with fines and jail time and there
              won't be any jobs for illegals.  --the visible hand
              \_ Agreed. -invisible conservative
                 \- and there will be fewer illegal criminal employers too!
              \_ Again, c.f. The War On Drugs.  Face it, globalization is
                 stronger than you.  So is THE INVISIBLE HAND, BITCHES!
                   --the invisible hand
              \_ agreed - ultra-left liberal.  I am SOOOOOOO pissed at
                 the current immigration debate.  I view this as a form of
                 corporate welfare which we need to get rid of.  I don't
                 understand why some of my liberal collegues demands
                 "rights" for these illegal immigrants.  demanding illegal
                 immigrant's right is almost like my self demanding the
                 quality of coke/crack to be monitored and regulated by FDA.
                 \- i found it amazing to talk to some black union people
                    who never gave a second thought to making "arguments"
                    like "are you relly comfortable letting somebody
                    if *india8 or *pakistan* do you tax returns!", as
                    if *india* or *pakistan* do you tax returns!", as
                    if it was self-evident that "those people" were all
                    crooked, stereotyping 3rd world workers as being
                    potential identity thieves. [i believe they were
                    focusing on the trust rather than the competence
                    issue, although they werent exactly granting that
                    these workers had reasonable price-productivity].
                    \_ Agreed, a lot of people have uninformed issues with
                       trust of workers in developing economies for racial
                       or cultural reasons, but they make the right point for
                       the wrong reason.  First, I do not trust India or
                       Pakistan (your examples, but many others apply) to
                       have significant data protection laws in place.  I
                       also do not have the same legal recourse in case of
                       abuse that I have in my own country--viz. the UCSF
                       case of the poor chick in Pakistan (?) threatening to
                       release thousands of patient records she was processing
                       because some scumbag (US) subcontractor had not paid
                       her.  Lastly, although this does not apply so much to
                       individual services like tax returns as much as to
                       corporate project work, I have _serious_ competence and
                       reliability issues, as every single one of a large
                       number of high-value IT projects I've either worked on
                       or near that relied on organized outsourcing to Wipro,
                       Infosys, or any of a number of other Indian firms, has
                       involved overselling, cost overruns, gross inefficiency,
                       involved overselling, cost overruns, inefficiency,
                       delays and sundry other fuckups.  I refuse to imply
                       conclusions like "Indian workers are useless", as all
                       people I've seen actually _brought on site_ had about
                       the same usefulness level as "Western" workers, but for
                       offshore work, I'll pass.  -John
                       \- i was kinda worndering if i should have
                          anticipated exactly the two arguments you made
                          [except i had not heard about the ucsf case] but
                          i was felling lazy. first, yeah, i agree there is
                          something to be said about the data protection
                          argument. a lot of business relationship work
                          because the possibility of litigation solves the
                          "prisoner's dilemma" problem. but these guys were
                          "arguing by stereotype". it was the same argument
                          as "well you really cant trust a 23 yr old black
                          man looking for a taxi ... he might be a nice guy
                          but he also might be a ghetto thug". i think we
                          are in agreement here. as for the lower end of the
                          IT work curve, i think outsourcing has exposed
                          talented people here to untalented people there.
                          i think this sort of happened here with the
                          <DEAD>dot.com<DEAD> boom when all kinds of non-science/eng
                          morons flowed into the high tech field and you
                          had vast numbers of dba or "web programmers"
                          who had no clue what they were doing. many of
                          these former english majors have exited the mkt here
                          but these people are still flocking into the mkt
                          there. moving from teh people-talent to project
                          fuckups: i dont remember the numbers, but "studies
                          show" some giant percentage of IT projects fail,
                          so the failure baserate may be pretty high.
                          and these flavor of fuckups are not uncommon here.
                          from halliburton, to defense contracting, to DHS
                          IT projects, BIGDIG, Bay Bridge [yes, the govt is
                          the other party in all of those cases, but private
                          companies dont advertise their fuckups now, do they].
                          Oh actually, i just remember a whole raft of fuckups
                          with a friend who outsourced a bunch of IT things to
                          KPMG. This was a case where they were a small client
                          so they got the KPMG dumbasses ... who turned out
                          to also have a bad work ethic and were essentially
                          dishonest [walked out of debugging a problem at 5pm
                          when my friend left for a minute, expensed basketball
                          tix to the contract etc. pretty much everything
                          with those guys failed, except for some trivial
                          stuff they could have just done themselves. again,
                          where you sit influneces who you deal with. "govt
                          workers @lbl.gov != govt workers at the port of
                          \_ I did say "right point for the wrong reason."
                             I think we agree there.  And yes, many IT
                             projects fail--in my case, I'm batting about
                             90% so far, and those 10% were because of
                             lack of customer senior mgmt buy-in after we
                             finished (I never work with or for idiots or
                             losers, thank god.)  However, the  mediocre
                             quality of all offshoring work I've seen
                             (management, technical skills, worker
                             initiative and motivation) always added yet
                             another major failure factor to projects it
                             caused to tank, which would not have been
                             there otherwise that's all.  Oh and btw,
                             the three reasons I named against offshoring
                             work apply to India, Pakistan, China,
                             Russia, Malaysia and a number of other
                             second-tier economies in my experience. -John
2006/9/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44465 Activity:nil
9/20    http://csua.org/u/gxx
        If you want to secure our borders, you're a racist.
        \_ Economic competition, suck it up - bitches!  --the invisible hand
2006/9/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44408 Activity:nil
9/16    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/15/immigration.town.ap/index.html
        Finally, good news                              -jblack #1 fan
        \_ Yup, we can finally cut down the budgets for schools and health
           care for these people.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44276 Activity:nil
9/5     "Entrant"?  What's that supposed to mean?
        \_ I don't think I'm going out on a limb here: entrant, n.,
           one who enters.
        \_ This is actually kind of interesting, as my uncle's wife's mother
           recently got permission to enter the US from Mexico to visit her
           daughters (naturalized US citizens). They had to prove that she
           would have significant financial support if she somehow decided to
           stay, and they also had to show that she owned her own house in
           Mexico and thus had a strong incentive to return. And then, even
           though she had only applied to visit, they went ahead and offered
           her permission to work anyway. So Entrant-rights might be somewhat
           different from immigrant-rights... or perhaps not. --erikred
           \_ what? she applied for a B-2 visa and they offered to give her
              a green card?
              \_ She had filled out the forms for the visit. There was a check
                 box that she could check if she intended to work. The consular
                 agent suggested that she go ahead and check that box, just in
                 case she wanted to work.
                 \_ did the checkbox lead to anything else besides a B-2 visa?
           \_ this is why I am so pissed at the immigtration policy.  we put
              so much constraint to those who trying to enter/leave US via
              the legal means, while we don't punish those who cross the
              border illegally.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44275 Activity:low
9/5     Republicans decide to lose the Nov elections
        \_ good ... bad ... I'm the guy with the gun^H^H^Hvoting equipment
           \_ when the consequences of Dubya losing control is a mushroom cloud
              over one or several major American cities, can you let the good
              but misguided masses decide the future?
              \_ As a former R and conservative I, I think we're not going to
                 take the whole thing seriously until there is a mushroom cloud
                 over a city.  And I hope if the D's take control they impeach
                 Bush for his refusal to defend our borders. -emarkp
                 \_ Regardless of your party affiliation, do you still
                    believe the Iraq War is a good thing?
                 \_ Honestly, had you been surrounded by conservatives who
                    still worship Bush, would you switch? Probably not. My
                    point is you switched mostly because the people around
                    you disagree with you, and you're sick and tired of
                    defending yourself, right?
                 \_ Why are you a former R and conservative?  I can see leaving
                    the party if you feel the party has left you.  I don't see
                    why you'd be a former conservative unless you've undergone
                    a shift in personal philosophy which doesn't seem to match
                    your last statement about defending our borders.
                    \_ I think you're parsing his post wrong.
                       \_ Maybe so.  I re-read it a few times and still don't
                          see another reading.  Help me out.
                          \_ I think he's a former Republican, and a
                             conservative (still).  In fact, I believe
                             he left the Republican party because they
                             weren't controlling immigration well enough.
                          \_ conservative I = conservative Independent
                 \_ So if they impeach Bush for breaking the law, will you see
                    that as a happy compromise?
                    \_ Hi troll!
                       \_ I do not think it means what you think it means.
                    \_ A happy compromise with what? Rs losing the election?
                       Mushroom cloud over a US city?
               \_ All of this Republicans == making country safer rhetoric
                  would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you know,
                  their actions.
                  would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you
                  know, their actions.
                  \_ Do you think nothing has happened inside the US borders
                     since 9/11 because of a) luck, b) lack of effort or
                     preparation on the part of terrorists, or c) various
                     government agencies successfully keeping citizens safe?
                     \_ a), combined with shift in Al Queda strategy.
                        \_ I don't believe this.  I think it's all three, but
                           I think the Dems can maintain status quo on (c) and
                           do a better job on Iraq, winning the war on terror,
                           and not fucking up the economy.
2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44273 Activity:nil
9/5     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14673701
        Alright guys. November's coming. Bad news for the Republican.
        \_ If there's only one Republican, I can see where there is a problem.
        \_ All politics are local and current.  Never cry for joy or for pain
           based on random polls months ahead of an election.
2006/8/29-9/1 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44186 Activity:nil
8/29    Personal accounts of the events in Maywood over the weekend (8MB mp3):
        link:csua.org/u/gsl (starting around 19 minutes in)
        (Summary: activists opposed to illegal immigration had a protest in the
        self-declared "sanctuary city".  They were mobbed by violent illegal-
        immigration supporters.)
        Photos and video of illegal-immigration supporters hoisting Mexican
        flag over US post office in Maywood:
        \_ Really, disguising Malkin links is just plain silly. Post proud or
           go home.
2006/8/17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44054 Activity:nil
8/17    JonBenet case solved!  Former school teacher admitted killing her.
        The parents are clear after all.
        \_ obWhoGivesAShit
           \- the parents may not be murderers, but they are all freaks
        \_ At this point it seems quite likely that this guys is lying, and
           it is a false confession.  He won't state anything verifiable
           about the case, (that wasn't in the news), and he was a strong
           alibi.  (His ex-wife claims he was with her in Alabama that day.)
           \_ Next time when you jack off to her pics you know which bastard
              took your sweetheart away from this world.
2006/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44027 Activity:nil
8/16    Democratic Web ad angers some Hispanics
        \_ "undocumented migrants", ha!
           \_ can we just call them illegal immigrant.
              \_ How about just "Mexicans?" -average American male
              \_ That's what I call them.  But the vote-buyers think otherwise.
              \_ Actually, "immigrant" historically has meant legal immigrant.
                 The proper term is "illegal alien".
2006/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44019 Activity:nil
8/15    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/15/diversity.ap/index.html
        Explosion of diversity sweeps US, census shows.
        \_ This is REALLY REALLY bad news for the Republicans.
        \_ So how long do you think before the nth generation descendents of
           mexican illegal immigrants start to resent and try to keep out the
           new wave of mexican illegal immigrants?
           \_ Who says it isn't happening now?  There are plenty of quotes and
              interviews from American born descendents who don't want the
              borders treated like swiss cheese at a mouse convention.
        \_ Diversity threatens me.  -average American male
2006/7/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43745 Activity:nil
7/20    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060719/ts_csm/acoldshoulder
        "In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of
        government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according
        to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates
        curtailing immigration levels."
        \_ Wow. An anti-immigration lobbying group provided numbers claiming
           that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. Breaking
           fucking news.
           \_ Just looking at gov't services is myopic.  Illegal immigrants
              probably provide more than $2.7k worth of labor, reducing prices,
              and benefitting those who paid taxes.
              \_ Do they provide the more than $2.7k worth of labor for free?
                 No, they get paid.
                 \_ Sorry, I meant 'labor below market rates'.
                    \_ Which drags down pay scales for citizens, which further
                       erodes what citizens pay in taxes, increases the amount
                       of government services citizens require, etc, all so
                       some people can get a head of lettuce for 10 cents less.
                       Although if you own a mega agribusiness you're scoring
                       big time off this scam, more power to you.  Everyone
                       else is getting hurt, at least indirectly.
                       \_ unless you consume produce
                          \_ Depends on what % of your budget you spend
                             on produce.
                        \_ This is *still* a myopic view on your part.
                           The rest of the population benefits from the
                           reduced prices on everything that immigrant
                           labor goes into.  Can you quantify it and
                           balance it against the costs you correctly
                           mention?  You're giving only one side of the
                           story.  Yes, the gov't gets less taxes, but
                           is "taxes paid to gov't" the sole benchmark of
                           a successful economy?  Anyway, without said
                           quantification your assertions are just
                                               ^[i.e., illegals are bad]
                           assertions.  I'll find you credible when
                           you have numbers.  And if you *do* back your
                           assertions with a non-myopic balanced
                           analysis of real costs and benefits, and
                           immigration is a downside, you'll have my
                           vote.  Seriously, I admit you might be right,
                           it's just I don't think you've made your case.
                           \_ So your line is basically, "I like cheap stuff
                              so it is up to you to justify enforcing
                              immigration law".  The burden of proof is on
                              those who flagrantly violate the law or advocate
                              such violation that the illegal population is
                              an over all plus for the country.  You not only
                              have to demonstrate that illegals are good for
                              the country economically but that the benefit
                              far outweighs the all the other negatives.  You
                              have an additional burden:  illegal workers who
                              are mostly in farming and construction are
                              getting lower pay than citizens *because* they
                              are illegal and thus are being abused.  How can
                              you ethically and morally justify paying
                              unjustifiably low wages for such hard work when
                              the basis of that low wage is the illegal status
                              of the worker which puts them at the tender
                              mercy of their employers?  If you own stock in
                              any of the mega agribusinesses, more power to
                              you for the money you make on others this way.
                              \_ Actually, the burden of proof is on
                                 bigoted isolationists who defend current
                                 barriers to legal immigration.  Why not
                                 make those workers legal and have them
                                 pay taxes?  And incidentally, the entire
                                 argument is a red herring, since poor
                                 people as a group will always pay less in
                                 taxes than they take in in services.  -tom
                              \_ No, I'm not making the claim that immigrants
                                 are good.  Did you not get the part where
                                 I said I'd listen to you if you were
                                 convincing?  I'm merely pointing out
                                 that immigrants COULD be good, that your
                                 argument that they are bad ignores or
                                 doesn't weigh possible benefits of
                                 illegal immigration compared to the costs.
                                 I'm not standing up for immigrants:
                                 I'm listening to you and finding you
                                 unconvincing because you don't really
                                 address counterarguments.  Get it?
                                 Similarly, I'd jump on a pro-immigrant
                                 guy who didn't bother mentioning
                                 consumption of public resources.  Right now,
                                 I am neutral:  I simply don't know.
                                 All I am saying is that you are not
                                 convincing.  You've said nothing
                                 that makes me feel compelled to get
                                 off the fence on your side.
                                 \_ Let's not confuse immigrants who got in
                                    line and followed the law and came here
                                    legally with illegal immigrants who did
                                    not.  I'm quite pro-immigrant.  Going on
                                    from there: the basis of my argument is
                                    that it doesn't matter if they are good
                                    for the country economically (which many
                                    studies dispute and a visit to your local
                                    emergency ward would empirically confirm)
                                    but the greater issue I raised of 'they
                                    are here *illegally*'.  If you want free
                                    and open immigration, that's fine, let's
                                    make that the official on-the-books law
                                    instead of this nonsense where we have
                                    laws we flat out ignore and intentionally
                                    fail to enforce as a matter of official
                                    policy.  Then at least everyone would be
                                    legal and the entire issue would settle
                                    itself in a libertarian style truly-free
                                    economic free-for-all.  I think that would
                                    be a horror but at least the artificially
                                    low wages and employer control over their
                                    helpless workers would end.  If you're not
                                    up for libertarian style border enforcement
                                    then what is wrong with actually enforcing
                                    our laws?  I'm unwilling (for example) to
                                    see hospitals going out of business,
                                    reducing service quality while passing
                                    increased costs on to evreyone to provide
                                    basic medical care out of emergency rooms
                                    because the agribusinesses have uninsurable
                                    off-books workers.  Or schools getting
                                    crushed with an overload of students.  Or
                                    increased crime from multi-national gangs.
                                    Or continuing to let giant agribusinesses
                                    get away with maintaining an underclass of
                                    people to boost their bottom line.  And no,
                                    I don't seriously believe produce prices
                                    are lower because of it unless you can
                                    convince me these companies are run by
                                    philanthropists who are trying oh so hard
                                    to give us the best products at the lowest
                                    prices (cough, wheeze, gasp).  The only
                                    people benefitting from this are the rich,
                                    the Mexican government, and the very rich.
                                    \_ Um, the original argument started with
                                       illegal immigrants costing $2700 in
                                       gov't services.  There was no balanced
                                       view of the economic benefit of their
                                       labor, so the $2700 number is a number
                                       that is useless.  And if the economic
                                       benefit really is just to the rich,
                                       then you're right, that benefit should
                                       be discounted.
                                       \- I dont like saying complex public
                                          issues are "simple" but it seems
                                          to me not having serious sanctions
                                          against employers of illegal aliens
                                          [as well as the will and resources
                                          to enforce them] make this largely
                                          shadow boxing ... just like anti-
                                          aff action people who are ok with
                                          major departures from "metritorcratic
                                          admissions" such as legacies are
                                          totally disingenuous ... i'm not
                                          saying college admissions can be
                                          done like the medical residency
                                          match, but it could be a lot cleaner,
                                          if there was a serious desire to be
                                          so [i.e. it was goal directed rather
                                          than politics directed]. this idea
                                          of creating a second class labor
                                          pool shows it is business interests
                                          driving the elite side of the
                                          republican view [BUSHCO] regardless
                                          of the rest of the rhetoric. the
                                          sttements that these insidious
                                          illegal are too clever for tyson
                                          foods are ridiculous ... if anything
                                          those are the easiest employers to
                                          go after. the harder ones to do
                                          go after. the harder ones to go
                                          after are probaby the illegal baby-
                                          care workers of yuppie couples,
                                          and say irish programmers over
                                          staying their visas ... arguably not
                                          a security or economic problem for
                                          the US, but whether this is a prob
                                          depends on your view of equity and
2006/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Finance/Investment] UID:43552 Activity:nil
7/2     The Underground Economy
2006/7/1 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43546 Activity:nil
7/1     Gang expert backs Tancredo charges
2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43305 Activity:nil
6/7     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060607/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
        Bush says you must "learn values and history and language of
        America". I say to Bush, maybe you should learn something about
        world history, public speech, diplomacy, and anger management
        before telling other people what to do.
        \_ Does anyone else find it disturbing that the Office of Citizenship
           is being established under the Department of Homeland Security?
           \_ Nein, it makes perfekt sense to me.
        \_ Bush should, yes, maybe.  What's wrong about forcing immigrants
           and candidates for citizenship to adopt the basic values of their
           host countries?  Most European states have long adopted a really
           fuzzy and tolerant attitude towards immigrants' cultures, and it's
           a fucking catastrophe, particularly with Eastern European, African
           and many muslim arrivals--the attitude towards "oh we must
           understand and acknowledge them" is changing, fast, in a lot of
           places.  You're talking about two different things.  -John
           \_ Why must this be a case of "understand and acknowledge" vs.
              "expect them to conform to the laws and civics of our country"?
              When did the two become incompatible?
              \_ OK, maybe my post was poorly worded--most European countries
                 (except maybe for the UK and France) have less of a melting
                 pot tradition than the US, even if the extent of immigrants'
                 readiness to mix in the US is often exagerrated.  There's
                 always been a lot of insecurity of how to deal with new
                 immigrants, with the result that many governments have bent
                 over backwards to try and accommodate and tolerate the quirks
                 of immigrants from countries with social traditions
                 diametrically opposed to what many consider the enlightened
                 Western ideal.  This has resulted in a marked unwillingness on
                 the part of many immigrants to "conform to the laws and
                 civics", as you astutely put it--forced marriages, ethnic
                 clashes and honor killings are some of the examples of results
                 of this kid-glove approach.  -John
                 \_ Right on. Where my hackles get raised is when "conform to
                    the laws and civics" is interpreted to mean "learn English
                    and become Christian or get out."
                    \_ Maybe not become Christian, but they should learn
                       English. It is the official language. It's not too
                       much to ask. In reality, I suspect that the vast
                       majority of immigrants *do* learn at least some
                       English. What pisses me off is when I go somewhere
                       and the signs are not in English. If you want
                       Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs then fine,
                       but make sure to have English ones, too.
                       \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
                       \_ Actually, it's not the official language -- that's
                          kind of the center of the debate.
                          \_ Oh come on. English is the official language.
                             It's what our effing Constitution was written
                             in. We don't need some proclamation for it
                             to be clear what the official language is.
                             \_ Words mean something, young padawan.
                                \_ Right, which is why all the words on
                                   highway signs are in English, for
                                   instance. Because there's no official
                                   \_ I think you're confused about what
                                      'official' means in this context.  Yes,
                                      signs are in english -- but that's not
                                      the same as mandating english from
                                      a legal standpoint (official government
                                      documents, etc).  Perhaps The One True
                                      PSB can elucidate if he's interested --
                                      but IIRC, India has actually mandated
                                      english as its official language.
                                      \_ What would be the difference if
                                         it was mandated? Everything is in
                                         English already. It would just be
                                         a rubber stamp.
                                         \_ Not strictly true - I *believe*
                                            most official government
                                            documents can be obtained in
                                            other languages in this
                                            country.  It would be a pretty
                                            big difference if someone that
                                            couldn't speak english and was
                                            unable to read them had no
                                            participatory recourse.  (grain
                                            of salt here -- I'm dredging
                                            this up from my first or second
                                            year studies at Ma Berkeley, so
                                            I could be making this all up).
                                            \_ Not all documents are and
                                               most (all?) government
                                               proceedings are conducted
                                               in English. If English was
                                               not "official" then you might
                                               see official documents printed
                                               in other languages, but not in
                                               English. That will never happen,
                                               because English is unofficially
                                               official already.
                                               \_ Um.  You really are just
                                                  stupid, aren't you.  Do you
                                                  know how many translators
                                                  are employed by the
                                                  government?  Do you know
                                                  how many state and local
                                                  government offices, hospitals,
                                                  etc have staffing requirements
                                                  to make sure local populations
                                                  can be served sufficiently
                                                  in their own language.  You
                                                  don't know what you're
                                                  rambling about.  Shut the fuck
                                                  \_ Will we see a day
                                                     when there are *ENGLISH*
                                                     translators? No, we
                                                     won't. So you STFU.
           You need to take a fucking civics class.  You and your axe _/
           to grind belong somewhere in 19th century New York.  To declare
           English "official" would mean exactly what you're suggesting below,
           which has no bearing on reality.  Making English official would
           mean there would be no burden on the government to make
           accommodations for those who live here, even if born here (read
           citizens), who don't speak English.  An obstacle like this against
           civic participation is anti-democratic.  As I say, it is a burden
           on government, and as such is heavier where there are a larger
           spectrum of languages spoken and/or larger populations of other-
           language speakers (read large cities).  But it is a burden they
           are required to bear.  Just because english is most common does
           not in any way make it "official".  And your complaint about
           "Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs" is so insanely laughable,
           you don't deserve any of my time after this.  Fuck you.
           \_ There should be no burden on government to make accomodations.
              It should be entirely an option. You think it's okay if
              a largely Hispanic (for example) school district decides to
              teach Spanish as the only language?! I don't think that's
              okay at all! What if they are a small community of Maoris?
              Can they teach their native language exclusively with
              government money? I don't see where that does anyone a
              service. Schools should teach English, signs should be in
              English, government forms should be in English, and so on.
              We are not like Canada where everything is in French and
              English both. English is the de facto language *ALREADY*.
              What is 'making it official' going to change? Do you really
              want your kids learning Te Reo Maori in school instead of
              English? If you have lots of Spanish (or Chinese or whatever)
              speakers then make that language official *TOO*  and teach
              them all by mandate in school, but English *must be* an official
              language in this country. Period.
           \_ My response got deleted, so I will summarize. You think it's
              okay for a town of largely Maori immigrants to teach Te Reo Maori
              (only) in their school district?! I don't and if I moved
              into that town I would sue. English needs to be an official
              language. You can argue that their should to be several official
              languages (Spanish?) but then *everything* must be mandated to
              be in Spanish also, including education, street signs, and
              all. You can't pick and choose which languages to translate while
              also denying English as the unofficial official language.
              English is basically the official language and anything else
              is done as a courtesy.
                                               \_ Hmm, I'm not sure I see what
                                                  you're getting at, exactly.
                                                  My point is if you're an
                                                  immigrant with no english
                                                  skills, being unable to get
                                                  government documents in
                                                  english is exclusionary,
                                                  and *arguably* counter to
                                                  some of the principles of
                                                  our country.  I'd be glad
                                                  chat about this more offline
                                                  if you're interested -- motd
                                                  is already too bandwidthy,
                                                  and I'm basically an
                                                  ignorant idiot and would
                                                  prefer not to add to the
                                                  noise....    -mice
                                                  \_ We aren't going to
                                                     produce translations for
                                                     every language in the
                                                     world. However, we
                                                     always make sure to
                                                     produce an English
                                                     version, which is often
                                                     the sole version. If
                                                     you live here you
                                                     pretty much *have* to
                                                     learn English as it is.
                                                     It's what you/your kids
                                                     will be taught in school,
                                                     what the signs will be
                                                     written in, and so on.
                                                     English can be the
                                                     official language w/o
                                                     isolating immigrants.
                                                     We can still produce
                                                     translations based on
                                                     demand. However, if,
                                                     say, Spanish was official
                                                     then we would *HAVE* to.
                                                     As it is, I claim that
                                                     English is already official
                                                     because such things are
                                                     *already* in English.
                                                     \_ *shrug*  Like I said -
                                                        email me if you want
                                                        talk about this more.
2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43299 Activity:nil
6/7     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13165121
        This is a sad precursor to November. Despite all the complaints
        and problems within the GOP, the number of Republican voters is
        still much greater than the number of Democrat voters.
        \_ yes ... much greater ... in a Republican district ...
           Busby is a weak candidate.  I'm surprised she did as well as
           she did against a telegenic GOP person pushing an anti-immigration
        \_ She was also taped encouraging illegal aliens to vote for her.
           "You don't need papers to vote.. we'll show you how.."
           http://csua.org/u/g2g  (Not all in the link, i'll try to find
           the audio file)
2006/6/5-9 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43278 Activity:nil
6/4     http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/04/trivia_tidbit_o_3.html
        Republican cars: Hummer (52%R 23%D), Porsche (59%R 27%D),
        Democrat cars: Volvo (44%D 32%R),
        Mini-van's kinda weird-- Republicans tend to have more children,
        3.5 on average versus 1.7 for the Democrats.
        \- an associate of mine at the FED was kinda amused to see a
           car listed by BERNANKE. he was apparently selling a Siena
           minivan via the FED WEEB.
        \_ Are you sure about that factoid? Most immigrants are Democrats.
           \_ Not the ones that start/own their own businesses
        \_ I dunno why, but the Porsche seems kinda weird--how about a
           Camaro instead?  Or something with badly done window tinting
           and a moon roof?  -John
           \- there is a saying something like economics/demographics trumps
           \- there is a saying something like demographics trumps
              stereotypes. meaning income type predictors generally win over
              "cultural stereotypes" like "brie eating liberals" ...
              my understanding is the "money <-> republican <-> brie"
              connection is better than "marin county liberal and berkeley
              connection is better than "marin county liberals and berkeley
              grad students <-> expensive cheese". so porsche drivers ->
              few std dev above mean income -> higher probability of being R.
              now if you just compare +$75k cars, it might be interesting
              to see the different R/D compositions.
        \_ Childbearing stat sounds familiar. Cite?
2006/6/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43252 Activity:nil
6/1     Conservatives rejoice! Horowitz is pushing a bill to renew the
        federal Higher Education Act to make sure LibUral professors
        don't teach the wrong stuff.
        \_ "Horowitz acknowledges his small staff can't confirm every
           incident it receives, and his fact-checkers can be "very
           loose with the truth." But he mostly dismisses the
           criticisms as inconsequential. "
2006/5/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43134 Activity:nil
5/20    The $64 Billion Question
        \_ Yes jblack. Thank you for pointing out this article. It says
           illegals take in more $ than they put into the system,
           and we seriously need to get rid of welfare and other social
           programs YOU as a hard working American don't personally need
           and don't want to pay for, because that is communism. Is there
           anything else you'd like us ignorant liberals to learn from
           freerepublic, frontpagemag, and other similar patriotic
           web sites?
           \_ How about learning how Mexico deals with the same problem
              (immigration, both legal and illegal). The Mexican
              government is full of hypocrites.
2006/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43117 Activity:nil
5/19    Guest Worker Amnesty Passes Senate
        Get ready for 40-60 million new citizens with an average income
        of $20-30k and a 3rd grade education.
2006/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42889 Activity:nil
5/2     So, did the "Day without an Immigrant" have any effect?  If it
                                   ^\_ illegal
                                       \- http://csua.org/u/fos --psb
        hadn't been on the news, I never would've noticed.  Maybe in LA?
        Anyone know?
        \- i think the point was to get on the news and in the motd.
        \_ yes. i realized i can do my own landscaping myself..
        \_ yes. Traffic was awsome. 405 in S Cal yesterday was nice and
           clear and moving at a whopping 40MPH when it would have moved
           at 4MPH on a normal day, 24x7. I wish people would protest more.
           \_ Less BEANER vehicles means less breakdowns in the middle
              of the lane, which means less traffic jam. It was quite a
              drive not seeing a single gardener driving at 50MPH on
              the left lane or getting stuck on the shoulder. The protest
              convinced me that less BEANER==better quality of life. -racist
           \_ Traffic going into/out of SF was similarly clear.
        \_ the food service place that my company provides lunch through
           was very understaffed and way behind schedule. - nyc sodan
        \_ what I found very funny is that Latinos/Mexicans think this is
           a sort of threat.  *AND* they think they will be the main
           beneficaries of the reform.  I have a feeling that if US ever
           relax the immigration rule, it's the Asians who will flood the
2006/5/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42881 Activity:nil
5/1     Please don't (yeah right) turn this into a pro/anti-immigration
        flame war, but I am genuinely curious:  would the immigrant groups
        striking/demonstrating/boycotting/whatevering be happier if all
        illegal immigrants were given green cards/citizenship, and (along with
        their employers) made to pay taxes/SS?  -John
        \_ There isn't one answer to that question.  But many immigrant
           groups are advocating for amnesty for illegals currently in the
           U.S., which would have that effect.  -tom
        \_ Well, Mecha and La Raza appear to be advocating returning the
           southern states to Mexico.
        \_ I think this whole immigration issue is being blurred on purpose.
           Employ illegal immigrants is one of the worse form of corporate
           welfare: employer is able to exploit cheap labor who has no
           bargaining power, while passing down the cost of illegal immigrants
           (school, health care, etc) to the government.  If you look at this
           whole thing from "corporate welfare" angle, then, you probably would
           agree with me that yes, all illegal would *LOVE* to have
           work permit/permanant residence/citizenship given, but that is not
           going to happen for one simple reason:  Those illegal, cheap
           labor will no longer cheap when they become a legal labor.
           Employers would have to pay health insurance and taxes on employing
           these labors, which defeat the purpose of hiring those illegal
           immigrants at first place.
           \- well it is also a benefit to white collar people who hire
              them for services. re: your last point, that is why the
              corporate section of BUSHCO has split with hick BUSHCO ...
              the hicks want them out [and are opposed to outsourcing too]
              while the corporate types want to have an official class of
              second class citizens.
              \_ I would view white collar hiring of nanny and gardners are
                 also a form of "corporate welfare," except individual end up
                 paying more taxes on supporting those illegals than the
                 actual per-hour wages we paid.
                 While it's clear that Republicans are split, I am not even
                 sure what is Democrat's position on this issue.
2006/4/26-5/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42844 Activity:nil
4/26    The US has one of the lowest rates of inter-generational mobility
        (rags to riches) in the industrialized world.
        http://csua.org/u/fmw (yahoo news)
        \_ This is great news for George W. Bush and his friends.
2006/4/7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42717 Activity:very high
4/6     I'm confused.  If all the illegals become citizens and we know that
        Americans won't do the jobs the illegals have been doing then who
        will do those jobs?  Won't granting them citizenship kill the
        economy just the same as kicking them out?
        \_ it's an election year.  I don't think people are trying to solve
           the problem.  If US pardon this wave of immigrant, 5 years
           down the road US would have to pardon another wave of immigrants.
           Once we pardoned these immigrants and grant them legal working
           permit, these people can start to demand minimum wages and
           force employers to follow the federal labor standards.  If
           an employer want to keep it competitive, he would have to to
           look for more illegal immigrants to exploit.  and the cycle
        \_ Hence the strategery.
        \_ I am an immigrant myself.  I am a bit angry at pardoning those
           illegals mainly because it is not fair for those who patiently
           waited in line and follow the system.
           \_ Perhaps we should simply brand them, like livestock.  Either
              you can enter legally, or you can be branded American.
              you can enter legally, or you can be branded American. Oh,
              and if they speak English passably, brand is "USA", otherwise,
              "Estados Unidos"
              \_ Comment on the English-speaking part.  I managed to go
                 through high school, college and grad school here in USA
                 with poor English constantly being riddiculed on MOTD.
                 Does it ever occur to you that there just might be something
                 wrong with the public education system?  Do you know that
                 people in USA gives out immigrants IQ test in ENGLISH to
                 those who just came here, marked them as retard and toss
                 them into the worse classes available in the school?
                 In my particular case, it took hard work, luck, and bribe
                 so I can attend regular English classes in high school
                 so I have a shot at the UC system?   And I was living in
                 a relatively well-off suburbs with a relatively good
                 high school in California.
               \_ my gf moved here from Poland when she was 9, and says
                  ESL classes more than a year or two are stupid, you
                  pick up English from immersion, you just gotta learn
                  it to get ahead in the United States.
                 \_ Sorry, I was writing in the tradition of "A Modest
                    Proposal".  I was not seriously advocating branding
                    illegal immigrants, nor seriously advocating torturing
                    those with bad English even more.  Just like Jonathan
                    Swift wasn't seriously advocating eating children.
                    \_ BABY EATER!
                 \_ Are you aware that so-called immigrant rights people are
                    the reason you ended up in shitty classes?  Bi-lingual
                    education advocates would have all immigrants learning
                    nothing useful to advance in society.  You have reason to
                    be angry.  You should direct it appropriately.  In an
                    English-only environment you wouldn't have had to bribe
                    anyone to get into the classes you needed to advance.
                    \_ Exactly. My parents are both immigrants and the
                       system doesn't cater to them (not even the DMV test
                       is in their native language) and they are better
                       off for it. Catering to Spanish-speakers doesn't
                       do them any favors. I remember reading a poll once
                       where Mexican immigrants said they *wanted* their
                       kids in English classes and not bi-lingual ed
                       classes, but the limousine liberals ignored that.
2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42710 Activity:moderate
4/6     Deal Would Put Millions on Path to Citizenship
        http://csua.org/u/fg7 (nytimes.com)
        Tancredo / Pence 2008
        \_ curious... what is wrong with deporting 12 million of illegal
        \_ I believe the strategery is for Dubya to publicize his guest worker
           program as much as possible to obtain Latino support, but count on
           the House to make sure nothing changes (no guest worker program,
           illegal immigrants remain illegal and still provide cheap labor)
           illegal immigrants remain illegal and still providing cheap labor)
           to retain conservative support and to not be blamed for the fucking
           of the economy.
        \_ Here's the reward for breaking the law.
        \_ You know in the UK if you live there for 10 years, legal or not,
           you get citizenship.  (It only takes 5 if you are legal.)  These
           sorts of things are not uncommon.
           \_ pls post this to http://freerepublic.com and watch yourself get
              banned in < 1 hour.  Try here:
           \_ URL please?
           \_ Well, no.  I refer you to the British Home Office
              http://csua.org/u/fgd .  "276B. The requirements to be met by
              an applicant for INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN on the ground of
              long residence in the United Kingdom are that: (i) (a) he has
              had at least 10 years continuous lawful residence in the United
              Kingdom; or (b) he has had at least 14 years continuous
              residence in the United Kingdom." [emphasis added].  So 1) you
              got the time frame wrong, and 2) the long residence applicant
              get an "indefinite leave to remain" and not "citizenship".
              residence in the United Kingdom... (ii) having regard to the
              public interest there are no reasons why it would be
              undesirable..." [emphasis added].  So 1) you got the time frame
              wrong, 2) the long residence applicant get an "indefinite
              leave to remain" and not "citizenship", and 3) subject to
              discretion of the Home Office.
2006/4/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:42687 Activity:nil
4/5     Harry Reid, 12 years ago
        \_ what, no child molestation charges??
2006/4/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42677 Activity:nil
4/2     "...He promised that if elected, he would put illegal immigrants
         in a tent city on the border and use their labor to build the
         wall. Goldwater is a nephew of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater."
        "Minuteman leaders have said that all the group's members have
         been screened to weed out members of racist organizations."
2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42627 Activity:nil
4/3     Mexican wealthy play American taxpayers for suckers
        \_ If only we'd annexed Mexico back after the Mexican-American War.
           \_ we'll be greeted with rose petals and open arms
              the illegal immigrant is the WMD today
              \_ You lead the way, pinche cabron Walker.
2006/3/31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42573 Activity:high 50%like:42576
3/31    Odd questions about Carroll's release:  http://csua.org/u/fdz
        (From Washington Post, with citations from NY Times)
        \_ Wow, a dupe only 2 posts above the original!
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42548 Activity:nil
3/30    George Will on immigration:
        I agree with most of what he says.  I was hating on George Will for a
        long time after he wrote that we should pave over Alaska just because
        he found environmentalists annoying.
        \_ I basically agree with that.  Immigration needs to be controlled,
           but making illegal entry a felony is not helpful.  We also need to
           improve the system to make it as easy as possible for people we do
           want.  (And we need to be honest about what that means.) -jrleek
        \_ I think Will's dodging the painful truth (that we need to provide
           an economic disincentive to illegally hiring illegal workers) in
           favor of handwaving over something that most people, left and right,
           agree with, namely, that we need a solution that protects the
           borders without marginalizing the immigrant class. And his dig at
           Soc Sec is just petty.
2006/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42539 Activity:nil
        Mexican takeover
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa, Finance/Investment] UID:42535 Activity:nil
3/29    http://weneedafence.com
        I personally don't care about the immigration issue but I'd like
        to buy stocks in companies that make fences. What are some
        companies I should look into?
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42534 Activity:kinda low
3/29    Pictures of Angry Mexicans:
        \_ Maybe the guy with the "indigenous people" sign should have
           checked with all those Indians first.  -John
           \_ Er, Mexicans are just as indigenous as the Indians here.
              (There are Spanish immigrants in Mexico too, but it's not
              like here where the immigrants pretty much replaced the
              local population.  It's easy to tell the difference: Spanish
              people are tall, white, and European-looking.  Mexicans are
              shorter, darker, and not.)
              \_ They're not all white and Euro-looking. Lots of swarthier
                 ones from their time with the Moors.
              \_ That's funny, the last time I was in the middle of the
                 Yucatan, the people there didn't look much like any of my
                 Mexican friends from college/HS, or the Mexican guys
                 from DF I work with now.  Maybe they changed them or
                 something.  -John
                 \_ Spanish descent.  Gringo v. Indio.  Round MMCCXVII.  FIGHT!
              \_ I'm sure the Mexicans you know would say that.  The Indians
                 would have something entirely different to say.  If the
                 Mexicans are indigenous then so are all the white people
                 in the US.
                 \_ I don't know man, the Spanish seems to have breeded
                    extensively with the Indians under their rule.  Whereas,
                    in north america, Indians were mostly just sent to
                    reservations.  While Mexicans don't look the same as
                    Indians, they look different from whites too.  They
                    are mixed.
                    \_ The CIA World Factbook agrees: they list Mexico as
                       "mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or
                       predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%".
                       You're right, though, I shouldn't have said they
                       were "just as indigenous as the Indians".
              \_ I don't know, isn't a mexican claiming to be indigenous to
                 California by virtue of being indigenous to Mexico kinda like
                 a Chinese guy claiming to be indigenous to France?
                 \_ Is an idiot still an idiot if they can't recognize
                    their idiocy?
                 \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
        \_ At least they finally figured out that they should be waving US
           flags, no Mexican flags.
           \_ Must've run out of Mexican flags.  Next shipment arrives next
              week from HK.
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42533 Activity:moderate
3/29    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189402,00.html
        "Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't
         an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American
         flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the
         English language."             -Roosevelt
        \_ Yes, we know, they're all horrible people.  The ones in the pics
           below are pretty disagreeable.  Now please stop with the fucking
           freeper spam, please.  -John
        \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to
           those who employ illegal immigrants.  Once those people discover
           they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to
           come to USA.
           \_ Who would that benefit?  -tom
              \_ cut down the illegal immigration will benefit us all.
                 when I say that, I mean price for food, housing and
                 child care will finally refelct the "true" market value, which
                 I suspect many of people won't able to bear on their own.
                 When people discover that price of food and construction and
                 child care suddenly risen by 40%, then, invading another
                 country for WMD half way across the world may become a
                 secondary concern.     kngharv
                 \_ Woo.  So you are saying that Americans would be better off
                    if many people can't afford the price of food, housing,
                    and child care?  And that the Iraq war was caused by
                    illegal aliens?  Put your analyst on danger money.  -tom
           \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have.
              \_ What laws?
        \_ See? How quick that article trots out the "jobs Americans won't do".
           Stupid fucking bitch. (Actually, the article also uses "American's".
           And this is supposed to be a professional publication?)
        \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to
           those who employ illegal immigrants.  Once those people discover
           they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to
           come to USA.
           \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have.
        \_ I like how the article's immediately followed by "Paris is Burning"
           Gee... why's that?  Could it be... the exact sort of guest worker
           program that's being championed?
2006/3/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42526 Activity:nil
3/29    Sweden burns?
        \_ More like, "Right Wing Alarmists Make Shit Up."
           \_ Here's the variation from NYT.  "Islam on the Outskirts of
              the Welfare State"  ttp://tinyurl.com/qhosl
              Are you still so certain that the http://brusselsjournal.com
              article is pure fabrication?  - !op
              \_ Of course he is. It is incompatible with his worldview,
                 therefore it is false.
              \_ The "variation from NYT" doesn't paint a Sweden in danger
                 of imminent collapse from Islamic immigrants; the BJ
                 article, by noted anti-Islamist Fjordman does. So, yeah,
                 I think Fjordman's making shit up.
        \_ we need a goddamn all-out crusade against islam.  stop all these
           pussyfooting excuses of terrorism.
2006/3/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42491 Activity:nil
3/28    Open letter to the media re: "Immigrants"
        \_ Interesting article. Too bad 1/2 of the Americans will ignore
           it because it's written by a Mexican or it's too liberal to read.
        \_ Can't argue with that.  Well, except 16.
           \_ Sure you can.
              Of her point 1: No, 40% of the Hispanic population was foreign-
              born.  http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html
              Of point 3: No, 40% foreign-born, and there are at least 4.8M
              more illegal Hispanic immigrants.  So combining the 2 stats,
              accounting for the exclusion of non-Mexican Hispanics in the
              4.8M illegal immigrants, it's pretty hard to say conclusively
              one way or the other whether a majority of Latinos in the US
              are immigrants.  link:csua.org/u/fct
              Of point 4: Yes, but legal immigrants are dominated by people
              from Asia and Latin America.  In 2004, of 945K immigrants,
              314K are from Asia and 385K are from non-Canada Americas.
              While it is interesting that there are 100K Nigerians living
              in Houston, that is just so much trivia.  A discussion on
              immigration is a discussion about Asians and Hispanics.
              Since 68% of illegal aliens come from Mexico alone, a discussion
              about illegal immigration is a discussion about Mexicans and
              other Hispanics.
              Of point 9: Given point 3, this is highly unlikely.
              Of point 13: http://csua.org/u/fcw [usatoday]
2006/3/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42480 Activity:high
3/27    I can't stand that mantra that I keep hearing from politicians,
        that immigrants do jobs "Americans just won't do". It's such
        utter bullshit. Americans aren't doing them under the conditions
        that the illegals do them, full stop. Fucking imbeciles.
        \_ that just doesn't have the same ring to it.
        \_ What gets me about all this is what they're *really* saying is,
           "We love slave labor".  How can anyone be in favor of a system
           that *requires* having an underclass of powerless underpaid
           people?  In 1986 there was a general amnesty.  Did that solve
           anything?  Here we are 20 years later in the same situation but
           with even more people.  Will we do this again in 2026?  I suspect,
           "We love slave labor!" wouldn't have the same ring to it either.
           \_ Yep.  Without all that slave labor cotten prices will skyrocket!
              Wait a minute, why are most of my clothes 100% cotton?
        \_ I suggest you start by setting a good example for everyone, going
           into the kitchen the next time you go into a restaurant, and
           giving 20 bucks to some of the dishwashers, prep cooks, busboys
           and other staff, many of whom are likely to be illegals.  I think
           this is pretty great of you.  It probably comes nowhere close to
           matching the conditions under which Americans would do them, but
           it's a good start, wouldn't you think?  -John
           \_ Yeah, that's what we need, another "good will gesture" instead
              of a real solution. Folks, the primary reason why there are so
              many illegal immigrants willing to work for substandard wages
              is merely one of supply and demand. An illegal immigrant
              costs not merely less in terms of a per hour calculation, but
              also in terms of paying payroll taxes and the dreaded workman's
              comp. It currently costs an employer at least twice as much to
              properly hire an individual vs. an illegal if you were to pay
              them the same wage. If you really want to get rid of illegal
              immigration then you'd have to get rid of a lot of the tax
              that employers have to pay. In addition, you'd have to basically
              get rid of the minimum wage laws. Neither, of course, will
              happen, and therefore illegal immigration will not merely
              continue, but continue to thrive. As the old saying goes
              you can't legislate morality, and in a sense, wage laws
              are morality laws (for other failed experiments in moral
              legislation, check out prohibition, the current "war on drugs",
              and software piracy).
              \_ Maybe, but you sure can cut it back. People have always
                 tried to cheat on their taxes too, but somehow governments
                 have always collected enough to function. Well, not always
                 but you know what I mean.
                 but you know what I mean. Most businessmen are not interested
                 in breaking the law in a serious fashion, so if employing
                 illegals was made a jail time kind of crime, it would
                 mostly stop.
              \_ I was being sarcastic, in reference to my opinion that many
                 people screaming "get rid of all illegal immigrants" are
                 probably not aware of how much the prices of a lot of the
                 goods and services they take for granted are affected by the
                 willingness of illegal immigrants to provide them for
                 peanuts.  Note that I'm not saying the presence of illegal
                 immigrants is good or bad, just that this is something
                 to consider before ranting.  -John
                 \_ No, that isn't something to consider. The prices of goods
                    and services is completely irrelevant on this issue. I'm
                    not willing to say "well this is bad but hey, look at the
                    prices of goods and services!" And besides that, I'm not
                    convinced that spectre of prices shooting up is even
                    accurate. In the overall picture the economy may stand to
                    benefit with more wages in more legal jobs, more consumers,
                    and more productivity and efficiency. I'm in favor of
                    strict employment enforcement but no minimum wage. Instead
                    of min. wage, if we want to ensure a minimum living std.
                    then that should be done through a welfare program people
                    can apply for. I don't know where you were going with the
                    giving $20 to busboys thing. All I'm saying is Americans
                    WILL get these jobs done, they just need to pay enough and
                    improve the equipment and working conditions. And all that
                    effort ultimately benefits everyone. -op
                    \_ My point with the "$20 to busboys thing" is that
                       currently, illegals do the work you are so keen on
                       Americans doing under amazingly crappy conditions, long
                       hours and low wages, none of which would be tenable
                       if you got rid of them.  Once again, I am not defending,
                       excusing or impugning what you call a "social evil",
                       just looking at it as a current given in neutral
                       economic terms.  Getting rid of this phaenomenon will
                       raise prices, period.  Whether it would benefit the
                       economy is possible, albeit debatable, but prices
                       _would_ rise.  -John

                 \_ Your point is well-made but should not be used as an excuse
                    to continue this social evil. Just because something is
                    hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. --erikred
                 \_ I'm ok paying twice as much for my lettuce and
                    strawberries or cutting into a business owner's bottom
                    line.  Slave labor is not the answer.
                    \_ "Slave labor" is really not an appropriate term.
                       The illegals want to be here and want to work.
                       Closing the border and enforcing immigration and
                       employment laws more strongly would be a negative for
                       the people who are currently doing the work.  There
                       are aspects of the situation which make it easy to
                       exploit them, but they are not slaves.  If your
                       concern is really for the workers, the thing to do
                       would be to loosen the immigration laws so they are
                       more able to come here legally and have legal
                       protection.  -tom
                       \_ I agree that this is probably the best solution.
                          Minimum wage should then be abolished, too. The
                          resulting wage deflation won't be good for a lot
                          of Americans, though. Still, that's how our
                          country was built and what made it so great. --dim
                          \_ Your free market approach to labor and wages
                             works only as long as there are still places to
                             go if you don't want to be a factory-slave
                             (cf. expansion West as the Great Steam Valve
                             during the period "our country was built").
                             We reached the limits of that system at the end
                             of the 19th century. We need new solutions, not
                             reversions to feudalism. --erikred
                             \_ You think the free market is a form of
                             \_ So, what you're saying is that you're a
                                \_ So, dim, you couldn't be sufficed with one
                                   pointless retort?  You had to do two?
                                   \_ I didn't write both of those, you git.
                                      I am curious how a free market economy
                                      is a reversion to feudalism. --dim
                       \_ I think "slave labor" is the right term.  You can use
                          "serf" or "indentured servant" or whatever other
                          euphemism you'd like but they're all just another
                          way of exploiting people.  The H1b program is a
                          perfect example of that.  Bring people here from
                          other countries, pay them under scale, work them
                          hard and put them in a position where they have no
                          job mobility.  I don't see how having 'half-way'
                          citizens who have the right to be underpaid and
                          overworked is a good thing for anyone but the stock
                          holders.  Let them come here as citizens with full
                          rights or don't.
                          \_ There are plenty of exploitative work
                             relationships which don't involve
                             slavery.  "Slave: 1. A person who is held
                             in bondage to another; one who is wholly
                             subject to the will of another; one who
                             is held as a chattel; one who has no
                             freedom of action, but whose person and
                             services are wholly under the control of
                             another."  Immigrant workers are not slaves;
                             they are disadvantaged in a number of
                             ways, but they have freedom of action.  -tom
                             \_ Why did you omit the other meanings?
                                from "dict slavery":
                   2. A condition of subjection or submission characterized by
                      lack of freedom of action or of will.
                   3: work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay
                                 You can claim whatever you want but you're
                                 just plain wrong tom.
                   4: whatever I want it to mean when I'm aguing with people
                      so I don't have to be precise or clear in my language.
                             \_ If you're just going to quote the dictionary
                                while ignoring what I said, whatever.  I made
                                it clear the issue was not the specific word
                                chosen to describe the situation so much as
                                the underlying situation itself, but hey, as
                                long as you can get cheap produce, anything
                                goes.  Everyone has freedom of action, but some
                                have more legal freedom of action than others.
                                \_ pardon me.  I interpreted the phrase
                                   "I think 'slave labor' is the right term"
                                   as meaning you think "slave labor" is the
                                   right term.
                                   \_ "You can use 'indentured servant' ... but
                                      they're all just another way of
                                      exploiting people".
                                      \_ All ways of exploiting people are
                                         equivalent to slavery?  -tom
                                         \_ I'm not going to get sucked into
                                            rhetorical games while you duck the
                                            real issues of using exploited
                                            powerless people so Americans can
                                            get cheap lettuce, child care and
                                            unskilled construction.
                                            \_ You must be confusing me with
                                               someone who thinks the current
                                               situation is a good idea.
                                               It's not.  It's just not
                                               slavery.  -tom
                                               \_ I'm going to side with tom
                                                  on this for the following
                                                  reason: real slavery still
                                                  exists in this country.
                                                  If an exploited farm worker
                                                  is called a "slave", the word
                                                  loses meaning for the sex
                                                  slaves who fit the
                                                  old-fasioned definition.
                                                  \_ You can side with tom's
                                                     rhetorical misinterpret-
                                                     ation or you can read what
                                                     I actually said.  If you
                                                     want cheap lettuce, that's
                                                     on your soul, not mine.
        \_ Here is my question of the day.  Why not just build a Great Wall
           armed with machine gun tower and landmines?  At the same time, why
           don't we throw employer in jail if we found he/she hires an illegal?
           why not implement a database look up so the employer can check the
           authenticity of social security number in real time (similar to
           what Visa/Master card has done?).   I am not disagreeing with John
           on the fact that there is a real economic impact on getting rid of
           illegal immigrants.  But my arguement is that the presence of
           illegal immigrants actually makes people look in other way when
           deal with real problems.
           For example, the issue of child care become less
           problematic if I can hire some illegal immigrants to do the work.
           If I have to pay 20-30 per hour for a nanny, I probably will harass
           my congressman to try to help me to resolve this problem in a real
           way, etc.
           \_ Been tried, didn't work.  The Mongols just brought ladders.  -John
           \_ I agree with you.  However, things should be done gradually.
              \_ gradually?  haha, very funny.  DO you know that there are
                 US congressmen in China right now demanding devaluating
                 Chinese Yuan 40% overnight right now?
              A sudden elimination of illegal immigrants may majorly
              screw up many businesses, causes inflation and interest rates
              to shoot up and send the US economy into a shock.  It would
              also increase the trade deficit.
              \_ Except that the Senate subcommittee version of the bill is
                 not aiming at ending illegal immigration.  It seeks to expand
                 the cheap labor pool and create an 'out' for employers to
                 *legally* abuse people.  The abuse becomes codified in a
                 system of law.  I find this far worse than what we have now
                 where at least there is a hope some future generation will
                 figure out the right thing to do since the current system is
                 such a dismal failure.  Codifying failure is just ugh... I'm
2006/3/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42472 Activity:moderate
3/27    http://csua.org/u/fco
        "Due to its size, the protest shocked the American media. A wave of
        500,000 people pouring through Los Angeles is one of the largest
        protests in the history of the whole country. Thus, the protests have
        been reported as an extraordinary reaction to events in American
        politics. But they are not extraordinary at all. They are just the
        typical way that governments are influenced in many Latin American
        "What the protests truly represent is the colonization of America by
        the Latin style of politics. Rally, demonstration, march and protest
        are the tools of the politically dispossessed. They carry with them the
        intrinsic threat that is always associated with the gathering of large
        crowds in acts of political demonstration. And they are standard fair
        in the lopsided politics of many foreign nations, including Mexico."
        \_ props to George Will on this issue:
           "Morality without practicality is immorality."
        \_ The INS shoulda posted up at the protest and started carding people.
           \_ Deine pässe, bitte.
        \_ Why do Republicans hate democracy?
           ...and brown people?
           \_ Why you do troll?
              \_ It's not a troll.  It is, however, rhetorical.  This racist
                 spew is truly disgusting.
                 \_ One guy gets quoted and all people of the same party are
                    evil racist stalinists?  It's a troll.  Sounds, smells,
                    looks, walks and talks like a troll.  It collects tolls
                    at bridges.  It's a troll.
                    \_ _This guy_ is spewing racist crap.  I think you would
                       find more R's than others who would think it sounds
                       reasonable.  I also think there are many other ways
                       that R's dis democracy to a greater extent than others.
                       This columnist has the distinction of crossing both
                       lines.  Republicans == racist was your leap, not mine.
                       \_ Ok, I'll ask out right: do you think Republicans
                          are racist?  Assume that Republican = follows the
                          party line.
                          \_ I think everyone is racist.  Period.  I think
                             many people struggle against it, some more
                             successfully than others.  This columnist is
                             failing his struggle.  Sensenbrenner failed
                             his struggle long ago and gave up.
                          \_ let me see... white can buy American oil company,
                             but yellow can't.  white and yellow can operate
                             sea ports, but brown arab people can't... hmm...
                             i don't know.  it is pretty even so far.
                             \_ Only Republicans were against the Uncol and
                                UAE deals?  Hmm.. maybe you need to take off
                                those blinders.
        \_ Yes, if a country oppresses its poor and powerless, it eventually
           leads to tension and strife.  Protests are exactly that, protests.
           \_ The threatened legislation would do more than oppress poor and
              powerless people.  Just wait till the senior engineer on
              your project who happens to be a German or Korean or Indian
              citizen suddenly turns up in jail with a *felony* arrest
              because he fucked up some paperwork.  This kind of shit will
              destroy American science if it's not turned around.  Regardless
              of how you may feel about poor mexican immigrants, this
              xenophobia represents a clear and present danger to the
              continued technical dominance of the united states.
              I've already seen top European scientists turn down U.S.
              offers partly because they were tired of being treated like
              criminals in the post-911 paranoia.
              \_ 1. Poor Mexican *illegal* immigants. 2. This happened
                 to one of my girlfriend's film students. He went on
                 vacation to Mexico and ended up in jail in Texas (and
                 was later deported). No issues if you immigrate like you
                 should. Both my parents came here from Europe. My dad
                 came illegally and was later deported (and then came back
                 legally). Why do Latin American immigrants think they are
                 so special? --dim
                 \_  You either don't know what you're talking about or are
                     intentionally stating falsehoods.  None of the staff
                     scientists, grad students or post docs I work with are
                     illegal immigrants from Latin America.  But I would say
                     that due to the vile idiocy of U.S. immigration laws
                     and the incompetence and stupidity of the people in the
                     embasies who carry out those laws more than half of the
                     scientists I know have had serious problems with their
                     visa status which caused them to either get stuck outside
                     of the U.S. or to be "illegal" for some number of
                     days/weeks while the paperwork got straightened out.
                     Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about illegal
                     mexican immigrants, but when a bunch of flag-waving
                     republican morons decide they're going to start
                     throwing scientists in jail it threatens everyone.
                     \_ Well, I don't know. jblack seems to like it. Less
                        competition with the minorities he despise of.
                     \_ Why are you blaming the laws when it's obvious
                        that the scientists are at fault here? Since I
                        work for NASA, I can concur that 'foreign
                        nationals' are treated poorly here, although not
                        as poorly as when our guys go to, say, France.
                        However, if they end up in jail because their
                        paperwork wasn't in order then whose fault is that?
                        \_  I just don't know what to say to that.  First
                            of all, I'm guessing you're a sysadmin and not
                            a real scientist, which would explain your attitude.
                            Second of all, if you actually bothered to talk to
                            foreign scientists you'd learn that there is a
                            random element to the visa process that goes beyond
                            just doing the paperwork the way you're told,
                            and can lead to month long delays getting back into
                            the U.S. for reasons that are *never* explained.
                            Third of all, our country is number one in the
                            world in science largely because these people
                            *want* to be here.  The losers will always be
                            willing to work here, but the top guys are all
                            turning down offers from other countries when
                            they come here, and if you start throwing absent
                            minded academics in jail for not filling out some
                        \_ I just don't know what to say to that.  First of
                            all, I'm guessing you're a sysadmin and not a
                            real scientist, which would explain your
                            attitude. Second of all, if you actually
                            bothered to talk to foreign scientists you'd
                            learn that there is a random element to the visa
                            process that goes beyond just doing the
                            paperwork the way you're told, and can lead to
                            month long delays getting back into the U.S. for
                            reasons that are *never* explained.  Third of
                            all, our country is number one in the world in
                            science largely because these people *want* to
                            be here.  The losers will always be willing to
                            work here, but the top guys are all turning down
                            offers from other countries when they come here,
                            and if you start throwing absent minded
                            academics in jail for not filling out some
                            \_ maybe we should get rid of traffic laws. those
                               absent minded scientists might be inclined to
                               speed, or drive on the wrong side of the road,
                               or something, which might get their license
                               revoked, interfering with their ability to go
                               to their scientist lab. they might get fed up
                               with it and go home and then we are doomed.
                               Or the dimwits might forget to pay for stuff
                               at the store. Or maybe the retards will drive
                               over some children on the way to work while
                               pondering the frequency of baldness among
                               condom users.
                               \_ I support the death penalty for car drivers.
                                  \_ I support the death penalty for whiny
                                     wanna-be extremists.
                            forms, they're not going to come here, and I can't
                            blame them.  I could say something about what
                            most scientists think about their local sysadmins,
                            but I'll hold my tongue.
                            \_ Maybe they can go do research in Europe. LOL!
                               Having talked to 'real scientists' who are
                               working in Europe (and Japan) I can tell
                               you that if they go there then they get
                               what they deserve. Your complaint is about
                               the process, not about the law. As for the
                               rest of your comments, you're obviously
                               a poseur asshole who thinks much too highly
                               of himself. You should hear what most scientists
                               say about their fellow scientists!
                               \_ And finally, fuck you.  I've had enough
                                  flame wars with your dumb ass over the years
                                  to know when to quit.
                                  \_ I figured that you were full of shit
                                     and didn't know what you were talking
                                     about. Now I don't even have to guess.
                                     I'm going to bet that you have absolutely
                                     no idea what life in academia is like in
                                     Europe. You're just pissed because
                                     your advisor spent the weekend in
                                     jail because he figured that being an
                                     important scientist was enough to
                                     get him back into the USA from Budapest.
                                     \_ Fuck you.
                                  \_ So you insulted an entire segment of the
                                     tech world on a tech message board of a
                                     tech student group and then get all pissy
                                     when you got corrected and the poor dumb
                                     sysadmin/non-scientist didn't bow down to
                                     your superior godly scientistness?  For
                                     someone so snarky you've got a really
                                     thin skin.  Don't dish it out if you
                                     can't take it.  --someone else
                                     \_ And fuck you as well.
                                     \_ And fuck you as well.  Let me clarify.
                                        I hate sysadmins, I hate academics,
                                        I hate other scientists, I hate dipshit
                                        net dorks who use the word "snarky",
                                        I hate fat stupid SoCal republicans,
                                        and I hate you.  So fuck off.  If
                                        fuckwits like dim want to destroy
                                        America they can go ahead.  I have
                                        contingency plans for that.
                                        \_ Oh my God! You have a career
                                           in comedy if science doesn't
                                           work out! --dim
                                           \_  My career in science will last
                                               just long enough to earn the
                                               money to buy the
                                               land I need to get off the
                                               grid and away from you fuckers.
                                               You won't take me without a
                                               fight.  In 21 months I'll be
                                               trolling the motd from a
                                               fortified compound in a remote
                                               location via sattelite uplink.
                                               Did I mention fuck
                                               you?  Oh, yeah.  Fuck you.
                                               \_ At first I thought I was
                                                  going to be Thin Skinned
                                                  Guy's #1 Fan, then you
                                                  turned into Weak Troll Guy.
                                                    --sad that Thin Skinned
                                                      Guy was really Weak
                                                      Troll Guy and unworthy
                                                      of fandom
                                                      \_ Fuck you.
        \_ I was thinking something similar when watching the protests
           over high gas prices in SE Asia. It's a very naive and ineffective
           form of influencing government. In many cases (as with gas prices)
           it's not really clear what the government is supposed to do in
           response. I don't see it as very sophisticated, or even
           effective,  politics.
        \_ Did Vincent Fox secretly sponsors the protests?
           \_ i thought Thailand government is at blink of collapse due to
              massive protest, no??
           \_ You can bet when they gather to protest pending legislation,
              that legislators pay attention. Especially in that kind of
              \_ Maybe, but if it was more routine (as in, say, Latin
                 America) it would be less effective.
           \_ really?  didn't people power rid the filipines of Marcos?
        \_ Did Vincent Fox sponsor the protests?
           \_ I was talking to a Mexican guy I know, and I said something about
              Bush being a dumbass.  He said that you can only call Bush a
              dumbass if you've never heard Fox give a speech in Spanish.
              He claimed that Fox raises politician stupidity to new heights.
        \_ So when the Promise Keepers gathered on The Mall, was that
           an intrinsic theat, too?
           \_ No.  The Million Man March, however...
              \_ Which was not even a Million.
                 \_ Estimates ranged from, what 470k to 1.04M?
        \_ fyi, this was the 2nd largest protest in American history, second
           to the pro-choice march in DC in '04 with attendance of ~ 1 mill
           \_ BTW, I live 8 miles from downtown LA and didn't even notice
              anything until I saw the news. In short, who cares about how
              many protested? It all gets the same PR whether it's 8, 80,
              or 800,000.
           \_ Sure it was. But how many were U.S. citizens? This is important
        \_ Having laws that are not enforced is worse than having no
           laws.  I think the best way to stop illegal immigration is to
           \_ How do you feel about the speed limit?
              \_ speed limit is a good example of the above claim.
           punish the employers who hire them, coupled with deportation of
           the illegal immigrants.  I support the protests against stupid
           inhumane ineffective laws targetting exclusively the illegal
           immigrants.  What we have today with a economic carrot asking
           them to come and unenforceable laws that try to prevent them
           from coming is stupid.  We need to take away the carrot, or
           make it only available to those who come legally.
           punish the employers who hire them.
           \_ You can away some carrots, but there's too many rabbits
              and they'll eat anything they can find and they will multiply
              like crazy until they run out of food.
              \_ it's like pigs vs rabbits.  the pigs don't wanna do
                 any work, but just want to eat and get fat.  yet, the
                 pigs are messy and leave leftovers all over the place,
                 and their are too lazy to clean up, so the rabbits
                 come and eat them.
2006/3/26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42446 Activity:nil
3/26    http://www.wehategringos.com/whg/index.php
2006/3/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42440 Activity:nil
3/26    Freepers react to Los Angeles immigrants' rights protest
        \_ Earth calling jblack. We're waiting for your anti-immigrant
        \_ Looks like an invading army poised for conquest
           of the southwest.
2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42435 Activity:nil
3/24    Immigration rallies draw thousands:
        \_ "Hundreds of the students, some carrying Mexican flags..."
           What message were they trying to send by flying Mexican flags?
           I suspect it's not one that would make people sympathetic.
        \_ One lady claims she's married to an illegal alien.  Huh?  If
           you're legal, you can get you husband in legalally too.  It's a
           pain, but then you'd be legal.  I'm not sympathetic.
2006/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42425 Activity:nil
3/24    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies
        Hello, my name is jblack and I approve this message. Get the
        hell outa my country you illegal immigrants.
2006/3/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42235 Activity:moderate
3/14    Progressives are so much less likely to have children. Conservatism
        to rule for decades to come. We're screwed. Really screwed.
        \_ Isn't it ironic that those who make the biggest deal of
           evolution, fail its only test so pathetically? --Alanis
        \_ The basic fallacy here is the idea that children always have the
           values of their parents.  This is demonstrably false.
           \_ I'm your number one fan!  That's such a great phrase!  I think
              you should use it at least 3 times per motd!
                        --Basic Fallacy Guy's #1 Fan
           \_ Please demonstrate, with statistics and not with anecdotes.
              \_ Are social mores the same as they were 100 years ago?
                 \_ |R' - R| < |R' - Dnom|, where R' = f(R), but |R' - R| != 0.
              \_ C'mon, all you need is one example to disprove an "always".
                 You still want one example?
                 \_ Fair enough.  But you're still in trouble so long as it's
                    more heritable than the nominal D/R split.
                    \_ '50s = Prudes
                       '60s = Hippies
                       '90s = Old hippies
                       '00s = ?
                       We already have one example of Prudes producing Hippies.
                       You need to argue that there is an overwhelming force
                       which prevents Hippies from being produced from Prudes
                       \_ Now, there are certainly anecdotal examples of '60s
                          hippies turning capitalist and conservative in middle
                          age.  Again, please post statistics and not anecdotes.
                          \_ You want statistics on the production of Hippies
                             from Prudes in the '60s?  You don't believe this
                             to have occurred without statistics?
                             \_ I want statistics that says political
                                attitude is or is not heritable.  Here, I'll
                                make your job easier for you.
                                "[T]he idea that a behavioral system has a
                                strong genetic component is hardly an issue
                                anymore", or how about "the data suggest an
                                interplay of both genetic and environmental
                                factors in people's attitudes toward, for
                                example, sex, politics and religion,
                                with environment playing a stronger role".
                                Now, where do the genetics come from, and
                                who controls formative environmental factors?
                                \_ Sigh.  If social mores didn't change over
                                   time, we'd still be worshipping animals
                                   and sacrificing each other to the moon
                                   \_ |R' - R| < |R' - Dnom|, where R' = f(R),
                                      but |R' - R| != 0.  And you should talk
                                      to some wiccans and other neo-pagans.
        \_ This correlation also applies to education levels, and high
                                   \_ Again, I give you good science and you
                                      reply with faulty logic.  What did you
                                      study in college?
                                      \_ Anyway, this article essentially
                                         agrees with both me and you.  The
                                         only dumb part of this thread is
                                         your use of "Republican" and
                                         "Democrat."  I think the terms
                                         you're looking for are "religious"
                                         and "secular."  The flaw in the
                                         article's argument is that they don't
                                         compare relative populations of
                                         religious baby-producers and secular
                                         baby-busters.  I'm willing to bet
                                         that the baby-producers are both a
                                         smaller segment of the population, and
                                         overwhelmingly immigrants of color.
                                         \_ So you agree with the article that
                                            attitudes toward politics has a
                                            genetic component, in other words
                                            children tend to inherit the
                                            politics of the parents?  Thanks for
                                            \_ The article didn't say anything
                                               about genetics, and you just
                                               avoided everything that I said.
                                               Thanks for playing.
                                               \_ Wow.  "[T]he data suggest an
                                                  interplay of both *genetic*
                                                  and environmental factors."
                                                  [emphasis added]  Whatever
                                                  you studied in college, I
                                                  guess it was neither logic
                                                  nor reading comprehension.
                                                  The article also said
                                                  "people's attitudes toward...
                                                  politics," so your argument
                                                  that it's not about politics
                                                  is also patently wrong.
                                                  Do you have anything to say
                                                  beyond lies and obfuscation?
                                                  \_ for posterity, at least
                                                     three ppl are participatng
                                                     in this sub-thread
                                                     \_ However, we are all
                                                        commenting about the
                                                        same article, and
                                                        claims about what the
                                                        article did or did not
                                                        say can be resolved.
                                \_ Your question is seriously flawed, and
                                   already probably caused a boatload of
                                   confused discussion.
                                \_ What do you mean by "heritable"?
                                   heritable 1 : capable of being inherited or
                                   of passing by inheritance
                                   inheritance 1 a : the act of inheriting
                                   property b : the reception of genetic
                                   qualities by transmission from parent to
                                   offspring c : the acquisition of a
                                   possession, condition, or trait from past
                                   Obviously it is not 1(a).  Are you talking
                                   about 1(b) or 1(c)?
        \_ This correlation also applies to education levels, and hig
           standard of living. Cf. Europe and Japan.
        \_ The article didn't really talk about this, but liberals could be
           adopting all the unwanted kids that conservatives won't let hap-
           less women abort.
2006/3/7-9 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42133 Activity:low 61%like:42127
3/7     Ok, long term illiteracy rates finally went up. We know the education
        system in America is fucked thus helping the Republican party,
        but what will that
        do to the overall economy?  Will the proliferation of Walmart and
        conservatism help control inflation, or is inflation now determined by
        factors overseas?
        \_ I love a good backhanded troll.  Ok, so if a bad education system
           helps Republicans then why have the Democrats been systematically
           destroying it for decades?
           \_ What?!?  So I agree that op is a trolling moron, but your post
              just shows an utter disconnect from reality.  tjb?  Is that
              you?  Can you MC for us? -dans
              \_ YHBT.
        \_ Less reliance on illegal immigrants for cheap domestic help!
           Finally a way to get your laundry done by someone you can (sort of)
           understand _and_ who won't get you in trouble if found out!  And
           the great thing is, now that life expectancy's going down, all these
           trolls won't be around long enough for us to have to take care of
           them when they start babbling and drooling.  -John
2006/3/7-9 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42124 Activity:kinda low
3/7     Demographics in China.  http://www.slate.com/id/2137680
        \_ hehe.  so India and China might face the same sort of problems
           we have here - competing with immigrants for jobs.
           \_ Sorry, when did you last have to compete with an immigrant for
              a job?
              \_ I have applied a few times at KODAK/OFOTO in
                 EMERYVILLE.  as required by law, they advertise
                 now and then on Craigslist and make a half hearted
                 effort to interview people.  My internal sources
                 say they keep subcontracting all the work through
                 inefficient, but very cheap Indian programmers,
                 I think through Wipro, and they haven't hired an
                 actual American citizen in recent memory.  So:
                 yes, I feel like I am competing with huge amounts
                 of imaginary immigrants even though its just outsourcing.
                 \_ It's pretty common.  Anyway, I have it from people who
                    have worked there that it's a mess at Ofoto anyway.
              \_ I see your point, but don't be so callous.  I grew up in
                 the central valley where many Americans have been left
                 behind.  In some cases it's their fault, in other cases
                 it's because the educational system is pathetic and
                 because they grew up in really, really crappy dysfunctional
                 families.  And they compete for jobs with immigrants,
                 legal and illegal.
                 \_ I certainly don't mean to sound callous, but competing
                    for jobs with legal immigrants sounds like a natural
                    process and wholly in keeping with the American Dream.
                    However, if you're suggesting we need to pump more public
                    funding into education and enforcing fair labor practices,
                    I'm right there with you. Just don't blame it on the
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped engineering job
                       salaries to shrink somewhat. I'm sure the dotcom bust
                       has also contributed to that more.
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped cause some tech
                       salary deterioration, if just a little.  Depends
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants are responsible for some tech
                       wage deterioration, if just a little.  Depends
                       on how far up the corporate ladder you stand.
                       \_ AGrove and POmidyar probably skews the scale way up.
              \_ H1B? Outsourcing?
                 \_ Well, H1B, green card, or naturalized if we're talking
                    legal immigration; outsourcing wouldn't qualify as
                    outsourcing unless you lost your job to Little Kabul.
2006/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42010 Activity:low
2/26    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1583995/posts
        Legal and illegal immigrants booted out of the country because
        of drugs, money laundering, bank fraud, fake IDs
        \_ Were any of the people booted out Caucasian?  How about
           criminal and money penalties against famers employing
           illegal aliens? Maybe illegal aliens should try the
           "i was confused (and thought i was still in mexico)"
           defense ... i mean it is good enough for highly compensated,
           well-educated business executives.
           \_ Farmers are fined when they're caught employing illegal aliens.
              \- the point is how vigorous is enforcement. duh.
                 and see point about criminal penalties in addition to
                 \_ Why do you hate pro-business America? It's not business'
                    fault they hired an illegal, it's the illegal's fault
                    for being illegal. Figuring out who is legal and who is
                    not is too hard for the small business owners like Tyson
                    Chicken or Walmart. Get government regulators off the
                    backs of the business man.
                    \_ Err, is this post intended to be satirical?  I'm
                       honestly not sure....
                    \_ it *IS* the business' fault if they didn't follow legally
                       mandated requirements for  checking proof of eligibility
                       to work.
        \_ "...charged in New York with drug possession and trafficking,
           money laundering, bank and credit-card fraud or producing false
           identities."  Sounds like the IIRAIRA in action.  Passed in 1996,
           came out of a commission set up by Clinton and chaired by Barbara
           Jordan, to make it easy (among other things) to deport "aggravated
2006/2/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:41803 Activity:kinda low
2/11    If we'd just stop our racist border policies and remove the
        predominantly white male agents from the area, these things would
        stop happening:
        \_ i think you're the racist.. we have americans at the border
           .. i dont see white people. this is america. if u don't
           like it we can escort your ass to the border
           \_ The make up of the border patrol is not representative of the
              people coming over the border.
              \_ why would it be? it's is representative of the  USA..
                if i go to Germany's border i want to see germans not
        \_ Are you being sarcastic?
           \_ Don't try to make light of such a serious situation.
        \_ just performing the shootings and fire bombings Americans don't
           want to perform themselves.
        \_ Please try to explain how our border policies are racist.
           \- If you mean immigration enforcement, it is because
              employers arent more harshly penalized for employing
              illegals. although this is really more a case of the
              politically empowered vs the non- rather than a racist issue.
2006/2/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41663 Activity:low
2/1     Why can't we use the Army to stop these border incursions?
        Oh that's right, someone sent it all to Iraq. My bad.
        \_ Obviously you don't know the law very well. And you don't know
           anything about the military troop strengths either. Put down
           that latte and consider being selfless for once.
           \_ I don't know much about military troop strengths.  But as far
              as the law is concerned, isn't it okay to use US military to
              defend the US border against foreign military?  Is law even an
              issue here?  --- !OP
              \_ I agree with you.  that is why I have always proposed build
                 a Berlin Wall across Mexicon/US border, equipped with
                 land mines, search lights and machine gun towers.  A side
                 effect of this wall would be that it will *FORCE* American
                 to think about how much of our economy is actually depend
                 upon those illegal immigrants... after the fact that our
                 agriculture, hotel, and other industry start to feel the
                 effect of such wall!!
                 \_ The issue here is about incursions by Mexicans in military
                    uniforms and Humvees with guns, not the average illegal
                    uniforms and armed Humvees, not the average illegal
                    immigrants.  (Unless you're saying since the Mexican
                    military support our economy by buying Humvees, we have to
                    let them intrude our border.)
                    \_ Please find a non-Moonie reference to the Mexican
                       army being inside our borders.  -tom
                       \_ http://csua.org/u/evj (Yahoo! News)
                          'EL PASO, Texas - It wasn't just Mexican military-
                          style uniforms that suspected drug runners were
                          wearing when they were confronted by Texas lawmen,
                          the Hudspeth County sheriff says.

                          The men carried Mexican military-issue weapons and
                          drove a military Humvee, said Arvin West, whose
                          officers who were involved in the standoff.

                          "It was military," he said Friday. "Due to the
                          pending congressional hearings I can't comment

                          Of course this claim is up for verification, but it
                          shows what the issue is.
                          \_ Heh.  You'd never see this if all you read is
                             the NYT.
                             \_ http://tinyurl.com/7ho7g (NYTimes)
                       \_ Here's something a little more solid than the AP
                          http://csua.org/u/evk (latimes.com)
                          Heavily armed personnel in a military-style Humvee
                          from Mexico helped drug smugglers fleeing police to
                          escape back across the border, according to
                          authorities. An internal Border Patrol summary of
                          the incident said the Humvee was equipped with a
                          .50-caliber machine gun. ...
                          "'It's clear you're dealing with a large number of
                          incursions by bona-fide Mexican military units,
                          based on the tactics and the equipment being used,'
                          said T.J. Bonner, a Border Patrol veteran and
                          president of the agents union.
                          Corrupt police or military?  The lead to the article
                          says "Mexican government personnel".
        \_ Because they occasionally kill shepherds and make the US look dumb.
        \_ Why don't we use the army to take out the Moonies?
           \_ I am pretty sure that would be a violation of the Posse
              Comitatus act.
              \_ That's crap!  Moonies are wild, untamed!
2006/1/31-2/1 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41627 Activity:nil
1/31    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183363,00.html
        Who says Bush is not popular?
        \_ I have this odd vision of FoxBots adding positive or negative
           weight to comments based on keyword combinations and then only
           publishing when the end product returns zero.
2022/08/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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