Politics Domestic Immigration - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2006/1/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Computer/Theory] UID:41560 Activity:nil
1/26    Hello realkitty:
        \_ People have been predicting this trend for years.  Given Japan's
           generally anti-immigration stance and its
           soon-to-be-rapidly-shrinking population, manpower will be quite
           scarce.  That combined with a culture that's accepting of (or even
           enamored with) robots and seeing them soon in day-to-day jobs seems
2006/1/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:41417 Activity:nil
1/17    I don't get it.  Why hasn't the Smedly Butler plot gotten more
        attention, either at the time or now?
        \_ Perhaps because it wasn't so much a plot by Smedly Butler as a
           plot defused by Smedly Butler?
           \_ Well, ok, but I mean, a bona-fide pseudo-fascist plot to
              assassinate the President and stage a military coup in
              America, and nobody even gets punished?  Talk about swept
              under the rug.
2006/1/10-12 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:41324 Activity:kinda low
1/10    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/10/D8F1LRCO5.html
        "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated
        like criminals"
        So if people break immigration laws, they're not criminals?
        \_ If the person writing that quote doesn't believe that they're just
           laws then, no, to them they are not criminals and shouldn't be
           treated as such.
        \_ Not all violations of the law are subject to criminal penalties.
           If you break the building code by putting in a deck w/o a permit
           are you a criminal?
           One can imagine a system where an immigrant is subject to a purely
           civil deportation system.
           \_ I see.  So you're parsing the word "criminal" to mean the
              criminal part of the penal code, vs. the civil part.  Okay.
              Yeah.  What's the case of illegal immigration right now?  Is
              that a civil violation or a criminal one.  Shut yer pie hole
              \_ I agree that many violations of the immigration code
                 are criminal, but not every violation is criminal.
                 Some, such as overstaying a NAFTA guest worker visa
                 may be treated as a civil offense, not even subject
                 to deportation.
                 Furthermore, my point is related to the speaker's
                 idea of what the law ought to be, not what it is.
                 The person who made that statement may feel that
                 it is never permissible to use criminal law to
                 punish immigration violations. There is nothing
                 inherently invalid with that idea, regardless of
                 whether it reflects currently law.
                 \_ How would you apply your logic to the sentence "Child
                    molesters should not be treated like criminals"?
                    \_ It depends on what you accept as the basis
                       for criminal punishment. One theory holds
                       that criminal punishment is appropriate
                       only in cases where the victim is one or
                       more actual individuals (as opposed to
                       society in general). If we accept this as
                       the basis for criminal punishment, then
                       we find that while child molest should
                       be punished by criminal law, immigration
                       violation should not.
                       only in cases where the victim is a person
                       (as opposed to society in general).
                       If one accepts this view as the basis for
                       criminal punishment, then we find that
                       while child molest should be punished by
                       criminal law, immigration violation should
                       [ I am not saying this view is correct, I
                         am suggesting that it can be logically
                         self consistent. ]
        \_ This sounds like a hopelessly out of context (or out of reason)
           soundbite. A much more well-reasoned statement might have been,
           "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be
            be treated like violent repeat offenders, drug dealers, or
            terrorists, unless they're guilty of those crimes, too."
           \_ You're reading your own bias into the quote.  The Latin countries
              are asking for a guest worker program.  Guest worker programs
              makes migrant work legal.  By their proposed solution you see
              the main issue is the illegal status of migrant workers (hence
              "criminal"), and not the intensity of their treatment given
              they're illegal (hence not "violent criminal" or some such
              \_ On a related note, I don't yet see the problem with a
                 migrant worker system.  To me, the biggest problem with
                 illegal immigration is that there's no way to control it.
                 Illegal immigrant violent criminals are a particular pain
                 in the rear.  It seems reasonable to work on both
                 tighter controls and a migrant worker system.
2005/12/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:40861 Activity:nil
12/5    Wow, the new motd ID system is pretty interesting
        \_ Ah, now that's interesting.  It looks like pseudonyms to
           consistently identify a single user, so you can track multiple
           respondents in a thread, etc. If it works (it won't) that's pretty
           neat and a nice improvement over the old system. -emarkp
        \_ That's hilarious.     -mice
        \_ Interesting
2005/12/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:40840 Activity:high
12/3    Immigrant families in Germany murdering their daughters for
        ... behaving like Germans.
        \_ Good article. --darin
        \_ "Honor killings" have been taking place in countries all over
           Europe--it's disgusting and has gotten people to re-think how
           tolerant they want to be of immigrants who don't assimilate. -John
           \_ Europeans (at least Germans) also need to re-think how their
              own culture erects barriers for immigrants who want to
              acculturate. That, unfortunately, has not been happening.
              \_ Most Europeans never were particularly comfortable with
                 the mass-immigration concept. That's not part of their
                 recent history except a bit of inter-European movement.
                 So now this is forced on them... why do they have to change
                 their culture? And what barriers exactly are you talking
                 about? Punishing honor killings? -foo
                 \_ No, I think he's talking about the fact that, despite
                    most European countries having large-ish immigrant
                    populations, it is actually pretty difficult in a lot of
                    places to assimilate, even for second-generation kids.
                    The "barriers" aren't really conscious, but there have
                    been a lot of studies recently about job discrimination
                    against people with non-European names.  This in no way
                    excuses the honor killings and shit like that, but there
                    was a good E'ist letter to the editor recently by a guy
                    who'd taught in Italy--a group of ethnic Japanese students
                    was referred to only as "the Japanese" by other students,
                    even though they'd all been born in Italy.  True or not,
                    this is pretty typical and explains some of the failure
                    to integrate.  Given that, there's also a _lot_ of un-
                    willingness on the part of a lot of Balkan and Arab/Muslim
                    immigrants to integrate.  -John
                    \_ Well I think it's a pretty natural situation. How would
                       those Italians fare in Japan? Not that Japan would even
                       let large colonies of immigrants set up their own
                       cultural islands the way immigrants do in Europe.
                       Other countries don't work the way America does and
                       that's ok. Japanese in Italy will always stand out
                       until so many immigrants eventually change the face
                       of Europe (already happening). I don't think they
                       should be forced to be perfectly accepting of
                       immigrants. I guess it comes down to the idea of
                       people having a homeland attached to their ethnicity.
                       This traditional notion is simply incompatible with
                       "integration". To me it's common sense. I would not
                       expect to feel like a native Chinese if I moved to
                       some random Chinese town, or if I was one of 3 white
                       kids in a Chinese school, and first generation kids
                       aren't gonna suddenly be Chinese either when they don't
                       have Chinese parents and cultural tradition. I think
                       immigrating is a choice and some of the negative aspects
                       are to be expected. Obviously they should be protected
                       law and tolerance should be taught. You can't force it
                       though without trampling somewhat on the native people's
                       lives. I guess it's also a chicken-and-egg thing... the
                       immigrants would only become "acculturized" after
                       several generations; but natives don't really want to
                       deal with non-acculturized immigrants.
                       \_ The Japanese thing was just an example.  We are
                          talking about substantial groups, like Turks in
                          Germany, Algerians in France, Moroccans in Holland.
                          I think you're imagining large European cities as
                          more ethnically homogenous than they really are.  For
                          example, while it still registers when I see an Asian
                          guy in a Swiss army uniform, it's a common sight and
                          people tend not to notice.  Your points about the
                          cultural islands holds though--although such homo-
                          genous enclaves are perfectly natural, a lot of
                          countries (especially Germany, Holland and France)
                          have been _very_ reluctant to confront the fact that
                          these people are of different cultural backgrounds,
                          parts of which are simply not OK here.  They've now
                          started to face this.  We'll see.  -John
        \_ Immigrants families in US become mass murderers.
2005/12/3-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40831 Activity:moderate
12/2    Apparently some Republicans want to do away with birth-rights
        \_ "Service guarantees citizenship!"
        \_ great idea.  Women/ families should be not allowed to sneak
           across the border or go on a shopping trip in San Diego, give
           birth, and subsequently become a lifetime ward of the US Fed.
           \_ You might want to go read the Constitution and the Bill of
              Rights on this subject.  But I guess strict construction is
              only useful when convenient.
              \_ Umm.. The bill of rights is part of the constitution, so
                 it seems a little silly to suggest he should read both.
                 Furthermore, you seem to be refering to the 14th
                 amendment, which is not a part of the Bill of Rights.
        \_ Republicans - protecting this country from the scourge of illegal
           immigrants killing people with automobiles.  This seems like a top
           \_ We should only focus on one thing at a time in the entire
              country.  Let's cut funding to all medical research, the
              military, security, and space research and solve the car death
              problem.  Good thinking.
        \_ Correction: automatic birth-rights citizenship irrespective of the
           immigration status of the parents.
           \_ Okay, but that takes a long time to type and I got a job to do
              here.  Anyway, I should have added "Good luck with that one
              guys." -op
2005/12/3-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40828 Activity:nil
11/24   http://www.capsweb.org/main.html
        Traffic, a deteriorating environment, a completely dysfunctional
        school system, and overburdened health care are quickly diminishing
        the quality of life. There is one primary cause for those
        problems: people.
2005/11/23-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40714 Activity:low
11/23   "US to end 'catch and release' at Mexican border"
        \_ So does this mean the population of Mexicans has recovered enough
           that they are no longer endangered?  What's the per-day limit?
        \_ In other news, poor growers can't get enough cheap labor. :..(
           "There are just some jobs people don't want to do" --- gee, maybe
           you should try /paying/ them asshole.
           \_ Dang, I first read this as "There are just some Johns people
              don't want to do."
                \_ Yermom's done dozens of guys and isn't too picky, but
                   remember, she doesn't take American Express
                \_ There are no Johns that people don't want to do.  -John
                   \_ I certainly don't want to do HEIL GERMAN Johns.
                      HEIL GERMAN JOHN!!!
2021/12/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/11/13-15 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40569 Activity:nil
        Jobs program tries to discourage immigration to U.S.        -jblack
2005/11/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40566 Activity:nil
11/11   http://www.chuckhawks.com/immigrants_TR.htm
        Immigrants, by Theodore Roosevelt                          -jblack
2005/11/12-15 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:40560 Activity:kinda low
11/12   I got my greencard 5 years ago, what's the cheapest and fastest
        way to get US citizenship? My mom did it through a 3rd party
        service where they did all the paperwork (for $310!). Thanks.
        \_ Seems impossible, since the application fee itself is $320.
           \_ They make up for it in volume.
        \_ 5 yr is not enough.  You need to wait for another year to apply
           for citizenship.  At least what is what I've done.  and FYI,
           they can revolk citizenship without any reason at any time, so
           \_ I'm reading it's only for extreme cases like if you're a Nazi war
              criminal, etc.
              \_ citizenship is not protected by anything.  Yes, in pratice,
                 they don't do it very often, but who knows what kind of stunt
                 Dubya is going to pull in next few years.
                 \- unless you are being really cynical, and i dont think
                    there is need for that yet if you are white,
                 \_ There is still this little thing called due process.
                    \_ that's why they've been setting up places in Cuba
                       and eastern Europe to detain people.  due process
                       was one of the first things to go.
                       \_ What kind of process is in question, but some
                          process is required before a citizen can be
                          deprived of life, liberty, &c. (see Hamdi)
                 \_ If Bush is reelected, rape will be legal! --Cameron Diaz
                    \_ Uhm, wow.  That's, well, impressive.
                       \_ Since rape is allowed according to the Old Testament,
                          and since much of Bush's base wants to see the
                          Old Testament become the law of the land in the U.S.
                          this is not so far off the mark.
                       \_ Rape is legal at the CIA torture prisons and
                          at Gitmo. At least according to the Bush regime.
                          \_ But only if you're doing it to protect the nation
                             from terrorism.
           \_ Nonsense. 5 years is ok. In fact, you can start the application
              process before the 5-year period ends.
        \_ The third parties seem unnecessary without any special circumstances.
        \_ The 3d parties seem unnecessary without any special circumstances.
           Download the PDF form from the INS web site, fill it up with acrobat
           reader and print it.  Add to your package a check for the processing
           fee and any required supporting documentation and you're set. You
           should get an appoitment notice for the interview within one to two
           months after sending the application. Now, if you really want to
           expedite the application process don't miss and don't try to
           reschedule the appointment. I forgot about mine and sent the form to
           reschedule the appointment. What a mistake! I had never heard back
           from them.  Another 8 months later I managed to schedule an
           interview after someone gave me a useful advice to call the local
           INS office directly (agaist the INS directions that said otherwise)
           instead of their useless country-wide 1-800 number where everyone
           yelled at me: "How dare you to call us because of this issue? Just
           keep waiting.  We'll schedule another appointment. Make sure not to
           call a local INS office. Oh yeah, your application will expire within
           call a local INS office. Oh yeah, your application will expire w/in
           a year after we got it if you don't pass the interview by then."
           \_ Which INS office was this? I had to reschedule and they were very
              reasonable for me ... I was dealing with the SF INS office.
        \_ Pretend you are a Mexican (or other Latin American) and
           sneak across the border?
           sneak across the border?                     -jblack
           \_ When did you stop beating your dead horse?
        \_ I don't know what 3rd parties will do for you but the process is
           easy. I put it off for a long time but finally applied in Feb 2004,
           and got sworn in in November. The form is long but fairly simple,
           the only complication for me was having to remember the dates
           for all the times I went to Canada since I got my green card (they
           don't stamp your passport, or at least didn't used to). The
           interview is a piece of cake.
2005/11/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:40435 Activity:nil
10/27   Jobs program tries to discourage immigration to U.S.
2005/11/4-15 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40434 Activity:moderate
        Massachusetts Attorney General Supports In-State Tuition for
        ILLEGAL Immigrants
        \_ Is he really that desperate for votes?
2005/10/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:40328 Activity:nil
10/27   Jobs program tries to discourage immigration to U.S.            -jblack
2005/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40314 Activity:nil
10/15   Meth sting leads to 15 arrests with Mexican immigrants
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502858/posts          -jblack
2005/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40310 Activity:nil
10/17   The national silence on immigration                           -jblack
2005/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40308 Activity:nil
10/20   Liberal activist paid homeless people to rally                   -jblack
2005/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40307 Activity:nil
10/20   New York Times profit drops 52%                                  -jblack
2005/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:40078 Activity:moderate
10/13   http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003576.htm
        Bush learned his lesson about appointing incompetent cronies
        to head important government agencies, right? Oh shit, no he
        \_ Michelle Malkin should not be cited as an authority on anything.
                \_ Fortunately there are dozens of others saying the same
                   thing all over the internet.
2005/9/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39677 Activity:very high Cat_by:auto
9/14    Justin Black (jblack) is a rapist^H^H^H^H^H^Hracist RACIST RACIST
        \_ This is fucking bullshit, and you are a fucking tool.  Asshole?
           Crazy? Anti-immigrant?  A liar? Brainwashed by the right? Sure.
           But none of that adds up to bona fide racist.
           \_ http://csua.com/?entry=27349
              \_ Boy, I'm convinced now.
                 \_ I assumed the links were supposed to be pointing out
                    that calling jblack a racist is a common idiotic
        \_ And water is wet and the sun is bright. Your point?
        \_ that's not illegal
           \_ I know, I just want everyone in the Bay Area to know. There's
              no place better than the tolerant Bay Area to be a KKK, racist,
              immigrant hater, SUV driver, gay & lesbian basher, Bush
              and Reagan worshippoer, a Republican.
           \_ Actually, it might be.  Isn't that libel?
        \_ Hey anonymous jblack hating guy!  Hows it ging in your sty?
              \_ Only if it's provably not true.
              \_ Maybe not. The problem is that the term "racist" doesn't
                 really carry much weight these days, everyone is a "racist".
                 Mix up Korean and Chinese - racist. Think rap isn't music,
                 The other problem may be that jblack rep is so low (not
                 really sure why, but everyone seems to hate him) that an
                 accusation of being a racist might not hurt him.
                 [ Note the other elements of libel are probably met ]
        \_ Hey anonymous jblack hating guy!  Hows it going in your sty?
           \_ My current working theory is that this is jblack himself,
              engaging in self-bashing to try and generate sympathy.
        \_ can you blame a guy for hating his surname?
           \_ Sure.
2005/9/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39508 Activity:low
9/5     Say you're really old and you're going to die in 10 years. You don't
        care about your credit rating. Isn't it possible that you borrow a
        big sum from the bank and then declare bankrupcy later on? Or
        don't even bother with it since you're going to die?
        \_ If you die any debts are paid out of your estate, so anyone
           who lent money to you would get it back providing you didn't
           just waste it.  And I doubt they would lend to the elderly who
           didn't have money to really cover the loan. -mrauser
           \- a think a better scenario is if you have a terminal disease
              or are contemplating leaving the country ... in the leave
              the country case, after liquidating assets, i wonder if you
              can avoid your last tax bill. that could be like a million
              dollars on cap gains.
              \_ Owing the gubmint a million bucks would make it difficult
                 and dangerous to visit the States afterwards.  Obviously this
                 would not be a concern for the terminally ill.  I do know
                 people with large amounts of untaxed and unknown to the US
                 foreign investments.  They can only spend the money outside the
                 country and actually live somewhat shabbily (relative to
                 their total available means) in the US.
                 \_ It worked for Marc Rich.  -John
                 \- well i mean a scenario like an immigrant from china or
                    india sells their million dollar real estate and stock
                    portfolio and moves back home and happily settles there.
                    \_ I assumed that those Chinese or Indian immigrants who
                       might escape with the tax-free millions might still want
                       to visit the US later or to send their kids to college
                       here.  The US is quite a pleasant place to live or just
                       to visit, and it will take a bit of money to compensate
                       for the permanent inability to enter the US.
                  \_ The person would need to avoid investing with US based
                     financial institutions or those who share banking treaties
                     with the US. Frozen assets suck.
2005/8/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:39333 Activity:nil
8/28    Worth reposting.  James J. Heckman's systematic demolition of
        "The Bell Curve":
        \- FYI: HECKMAN co-won the Econ nobel with UCB Econ Nobel D. MCFADDEN
        \_ "For a variety of reasons, treating persons fairly as individuals
           may lead to heterogeneity in outcomes among demographic groups.
           Denying individual heterogeneity by treating persons as members of
           demographic categories will produce disparities in productivity
           among demographic groups, reduce economic efficiency, and foster a
           sense of injustice among all participants in society."  MOTD, I
           hardly knew ya.
2005/8/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39176 Activity:nil
8/19    Two Illegal Immigrants Win Arizona Ranch in Court Fight
2005/8/8-11 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39041 Activity:nil
8/8     I'm going to Vancouver for two days. What did you guys do when
        you were there, and what did you like and didn't like?
        \_ I really liked the area around Mainland St. for restaurants and
           bars--check out Section(3) for good food.  The big park is nice,
           and the aquarium is kind of cool.  -John
        \_ Full nude strip bars serving alcohol with imported dancers.
           God Bless Canada.
                \_ Imported from where?
                   \_ All over (eastern Europe and Asia mostly). But they are
                      cracking down a bit.  See  http://csua.org/u/cyt (WS)
                      \_ According to this guy it's easier to get a
                         stripper visa than a nurse visa because
                         strippers are more in demand. Hooookay....
                         \_ This has been a pretty big problem. Immigration
                            now demands proof that you have been an active
                            exotic dancer before letting you in on a work visa.
                            That's easy next to proving to them that you're
                            a certified nurse. Plus there is the stigma of the
                            "bad job."
           \_ This is a joke right? My only images of Canada from media
              bombardment are their famous maple syrup and Canadian bacon.
              I haven't seen anything relating to strip bars or hooker or
              anything wonderful like that.
              \_ I forgot. Legal drinking age is 19 except for Alberta,
                 Manitoba and Quebec where it is 18.
                 \_ But they have shitty Canadian cigarettes.
2005/8/6-8 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:39024 Activity:high
8/6     DeLay: Round Up Illegal Immigrants
        \_ Look Justin, I don't know why you keep posting stuff from
           freerepublic, but it's getting pretty annoying. And if you
           want to deny it, you can't, because I clocked you editting
           files that match with contents on motd. Nice try hiding
           your identity, but you can't match our root power. Fuck off.
                   jblack Justin Black BG Sat 00:51 ( vi immigration )
                   jblack BG 55665 0:00.03 sec vi immigration
                   jblack BG 55665 0:00.01 sec cp immigration
                   \- what exactly are yoy unhappy about? i agree it seems
                      leem to mask the website but people are free to post
                      as often as they want, short of some kind of denial of
                      service level of churn and they are welcome to seek
                      anonymity just like you are free to post your evidence
                      "outing" him. how much trouble is it to not go to the
                      web site? isnt this sort of the "gay marriage in CA
                      ruins my boy-girl marriage in IA" type thinking?
                      sometimes closing your eyes is a reasonable answer.
                      i recommend seeking him out and deliver a beating
                      if you dont like him. --psb
                      if you dont like him.
                      \_ The number and persistence of the swiftboat trolls
                         during the election was borderline spam. -!pp
                         \_ Why hasn't jblack signed form 180?  What is he
              \_ What are you using your mighty root powers to prove that
                 jblack posted a freerepublic link?  We all know it was
                 him anyway, no one else here even seems to read
                 freerepublic.  Why don't you use your mightly powers to
                 find the guy who keeps replacing links with porn or the
                 guy who keeps signing other people's names to posts?
                 jblack is harmless.
           \_ jblack ttyBG Sat Aug  6 00:51 - 00:53  (00:01)
              Actually you don't need to use the root power (yet). Just
              look at the login log, if he logs in for less than 5 min,
              cross reference with the motd log, and you'll see a pattern.
              After getting caught using motdedit, he's been doing clever
              things to avoid detection, but everything can be traced, if you
              are willing to work a little bit harder. And if jblack starts
              spamming, by all means, use the force^H^H^H^H^Hroot. You have
              my endorsement.
              \_ The 'endorsement' of some random to abuse use root heap
                 abuse on a member because you disagree with their political
                 philosophy and want to silence them?  Yeah, great.  Thanks
                 for doing your part to make the world a better place.
                 \_ logical, soft spoken liberals like you is the reason why
                    the conservatives are winning. It's time we take a
                    more hardcore approach like the conservatives and fight
                    fire with fire. Freeper censors? So can we. Freeper
                    uses immature (and SUCCESSFUL) tactics? So can we.
                    We are at WAR with the conservatives, damnit and we
                    will use whatever arsenal we have.
                    \_ Uhm, no.  Get some perspective.  This is the motd.
                       You're "at WAR" (sheesh).  The guy posts a freeper
                       link with a 1 line comment a few times a week.  If
                       that sort of "hardcore approach" is too much for you,
                       I suggest you "fight fire with fire" and post a link
                       to the democraticunderground site with a 1 line
                       comment a few times a week.  That'll show that "we"
                       can use "immature (and SUCCESSFUL) tactics" as well!
                       Then at some point (after you've gotten some
                       perspective) you can explain how a few freeper links
                       is so threatening *and* "SUCCESSFUL" to the point that
                       you would have to do something *HIGHLY UNETHICAL* like
                       _abuse_ root privs.  All this entire thread tells me is
                       the CSUA seems to have too many people with root.  "We"
                       don't support abusing root on a CSUA machine in a weak
                       attempt to somehow advance *your* childish "WAR".  Get
                       some perspective.  The CSUA does not need a reputation
                       as the place where the kiddies are playing with root to
                       abuse each other.  That's a great way to kill the CSUA.
                    \_ I concur.  We are on the road to civil war, and it's
                       time to prepare for the fight.
                    \- defenders of the liberal faith who worry about some
                       doofus on the motd while the xtian fundamentalists
                       are keeping their eye on the ball is why "conservatives
                       are winning" (well that is not why, but it is a more
                       valid criticism than charges of being "soft" in the
                       context of the motd ... i fully support calling people
                       liars or incompetents etc rather than saying toning
                       down say public debates about the iraq war etc).
                       \_ So you support or don't support abusing root to
                          serve a highly questionable non-CSUA purpose?
                    \_ To paraphrase, conservatives are winning because
                       liberals are dumb. -- ilyas
                       \_ "Conservatives" aren't winning, idiots are winning.
                          It's hard to argue rationally with a cretinous thug,
                          no matter what your political persuasion is.  -John
                          \_ I think the only cretinous thugs in this exchange
                             are the root-abusing idiots.  jblack didn't do
                             anything wrong, he is just hated.  Anyways, I
                             support removing everyone not currently a student
                             from root@csua, like poster above. -- ilyas
                             \_ No, jblack's barrage of fr garbage is very much
                                "cretinous".  It's pointless, uninformative,
                                vitriolic shit in the form of teasing.  I don't
                                care what his viewpoints are.  Post something
                                that is not vitriolic shit and we'll talk.  As
                                for abusing root, well, yes.  -John
                                \_ The guy posts a few random links a week to
                                   a site run by the extreme right wing.  So
                                   what?  That's hardly a barrage and compared
                                   to the rest of the wall/motd is one of the
                                   least offensive posters here.  Abusing
                                   root privs is far more disturbing and
                                   disruptive than any amount of random posts
                                   of any sort by anyone.
                                \_ Whatever.  By this standard, the vast
                                   majority of the motd is like this, without
                                   any help from external sources.  By your
                                   definition, 'cretinous thugs' have won on
                                   the motd and wall long ago, or rather, I
                                   rarely if ever saw either place rise
                                   far above FR levels.  Honestly, have we been
                                   reading the same motd all this time? -- ilyas
                                   \_ No, not "whatever".  At least you (a)
                                      sign your posts, and (b) have some sort
                                      of contributory logic to your political
                                      argumentation (i.e. links and arguments
                                      that you post have _some_ intrinsic value
                                      as you seem to have put some thought into
                                      them instead of just spewing shit, even
                                      if it's usually wrongthink--for example,
                                      I find your generalizations about
                                      "liberals" to be disappointing and below
                                      what I would expect from you.)
                                      By my definition, "cretinous thugs" are
                                      rampant on the motd and wall, alongside
                                      a lot of other stuff.  -John
                                   \_ Ilyas, I hate to pull out an old cliche,
                                      but "pot, kettle, black."  You are one of
                                      the biggest shit-disturbers around.
                                      \_ Uh, in that case almost every motd
                                         poster is a shit-disturber.  I don't
                                         think I have ever trolled for the sake
                                         of trolling, believe it or not.
                                           -- ilyas
                       \- ^dumb^hedonists
                       \_ "Evil will always triumph over good, because good is
                           dumb." --Lord Dark Helmet
                    \_ "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of
                       liberty is no vice.  And let me remind you also that
                       moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
                       \_ So posting a few freeper links is going to harm
                          or even eliminate liberty in this country?  If
                          liberty were so fragile it would have no value.
                          Again: get perspective.
                       \- a lot of these conservatives are energized to
                          extremely curtail the liberty to vices such as
                          assmastery, while giving a pass to a moderate amount
                          of torture or invading a country on false pretenses.
                          \_ "nothing prepares the way for tyranny more than
                             the failure of public officials to keep the
                             streets safe from bullies and marauders".
                             \_ And from assmasters.  -John
                    \_ You're starting to sound like a communist revolutionary.
                       You also assign far too much importance to these tactics
                       and too little importance to the likability of actual
                       candidates. Kerry almost won, so did Gore, and I think
                       a lot of people would agree that, well, they both had
                       character/image "issues". They also had an unclear
                       platform, basically health care plans and "we're not
2005/8/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39011 Activity:nil
8/4     Americans DO love America!
2005/8/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39003 Activity:kinda low
8/4     psb in the news. Lookin' a little scruffy there, eh?
        \_ And he looks like he's wearing a yarmulke.
        \_ Wow, Partha sure has gone gray.
           \_ Is that really the same psb?  I've never seen him in person,
              only on the motd...
              \_ Not a chance-- this guy didn't finish his speech with ok thnx.
           \_ Um... no.  http://www.nynice.org/partha_banerjee.htm
              \_ This can't be the real PSB. The real PSB doesn't even have
                 a college degree, yet this fake http://NYNICE.org site says he
                 has a MS degree. Hence, this must be a fake PSB.
              \_ The One True PSB is less scruffy, and less gray
                 \_ That's my point. -pp
2005/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:38736 Activity:nil
6/19    Re: "strict constructionist" below.  I can't see how anyone would want
\_ Why do people not know that July=7
        a SCOTUS judge to not be strict constructionist.  If they follow the
        document then we don't get wonky rulings like the expansion of eminent
        domain and the excuse of interstate commerce to trample on states'
        rights.  Furthermore, it means we the people change the consitution
        through elected officials (many of them have to act together) rather
        than 9 or so appointed judges.  So, if you disagree with the strict
        constructionist philosophy, please argue your case.  I really don't see
        the other side of it and I'd like to change that. -emarkp
        \- "strict constructionist" or "fundamental fairness" and other such
           terms are can get universal agreement but they mean different
           things to different people. to take a geek turn, two people can
           think 'object oriented programming' is good and mean different
           things by it. a judicial philosophy is more than two words long ...
           and isnt even a list of "two words phrases" ... "i believe in
           'original intent' and 'strict constructionism' and 'stare decisis'
           and  the 'plain meaning' of the constitution."
           see e.g. Cardozo: Nature of the Judicial Process.
        \_ Let me preface my comments by saying that Justices ought to
           primarily interpret the law not create it. However, in some
           cases they need to be flexible enough to mold the law into a
           particular direction that is favorable for society as a whole.
           \_ I see this as a problem.  Who decides what's faborable for
              society as a whole?  Society should.  And we should do it through
              constitutional amendments if necessary, or by state and federal
              legislature if not. -emarkp
              \_ The judiciary has a role in molding the development
                 of society as much as the legislature does. Often
                 judges are asked to interpret laws for situations
                 that were not envisioned by the the people who framed
                 the law. Instead of automatically deferring to the
                 legislature (when/if they get around to dealing w/
                 the issues instead of bonking their interns or taking
                 bribes), it would be preferable for judges to suggest a
                 manner in which the law should develop. If the judicary
                 makes a mistake, the legislature can always fix it via
                 statutory enactment or constitutional amendment.
                 \_ Here's where we disagree then.  I see SCOTUS as having a
                    very narrow purpose, and that's making sure laws passed by
                    congress don't violate the constitution.  Of the three
                    branches of gov't, the congress should be the strongest and
                    the judges (not elected, not removable) the weakest.
                    \_ Okay. If you view the congress has having the
                       strongest role and the judiciary as having a
                       merely passive role, I can agree that you want
                               \_ I don't see 9 people striking down
                                  legislation approved by 536 people as
                                  "passive". -emarkp
                       judges who act in a limited way.
                       I, however, think of the judiciary as a feedback
                       system for the legislature. The legislature has
                       the primary role in setting national policy, &c.
                       Sometimes, the legislature doesn't do a good job
                       and fails to think things through. This is where
                       the ct can come in and make sure that things are
                       running smoothly. Actions taken by the court can
                       provide valuable feedback to the legislature to
                       get its act together and fix things rather than
                       just dink around discussing pay raises, and 1/2
                       dead people in FL.
           With that as a reference, here are some points re strict
           (1) Often its not clear what the rule actual is - congress will
               frequently enact legislation drawing power from various
               clauses in the constitution but fail to define key terms
               and the circuits will split over the meaning. The Court
               needs to have justices who can think about the long term
               effects of their actions and act appropriately. Acting like
               a curmudgeon and applying 18th-19th century principles to
               things like the Internet isn't realistic - the framers had
               no idea about this type of communication/commerce and you
               need judges who can look to the past for analogies but also
               look to the future.
               \_ There is something about your rhetoric I find vaguely
                  unsettling. -- ilyas
                  \_ Consider Sony for example. Yes there were people
                     using the VCR to violate copyright but it wasn't
                     clear that Sony had done anything wrong in making
                     a product that enabled this. The fact that the
                     ct saw its way clear to say that producing a product
                     w/o more wasn't enough to infringe copyright was a
                     big deal (Sony was going to be decided the other way
                     until one justice switched his vote, iirc b/c of
                     the implications of just a decision).
           (2) Sometimes you have a doctrine that is the "law" and is
               defended as such but in reality is just a cover for something
               more insidious like racism. In these situations you need to
               be flexible to stamp out behavior that has no place in a
               civilized society.
               \_ Again, who defines "civilized society"?  Again I argue that
                  society should, not a panel of judges. -emarkp
                  \_ So you would be willing to accept racism until
                     the states voluntarily decided to outlaw it?
                     And that was going to happen like NEVER. In
                     some instances, the states/people need a nudge
                     in the "right" direction.
                     \_ So you've turned prophet and caretaker now?  You can
                        say what would or would not happen?  You can decide
                        what the "right" direction is?  Here's a question:
                        aren't you concerned about a group of 9 people deciding
                        what's "right" for you?  What if all of them were
                        hardcore conservatives? -emarkp
               I would point to separate but equal as an example - clearly
               the intent behind the doctrine was racist and it needed to be
               ended, but the strict constructionism stood in the way of
               this. This was a state law issue, but the states weren't
               doing anything about it. Second, congressional intent when
               the 14th amd was drafted seemed to show that segregation
               was constitutional b/c the same congress created segregated
               schools in DC. The Court had to be flexible to get around
               the doctrine.
           (3) Reasonable minds can differ as to how the framers would
               apply or interpret parts of the constitution to modern
               situations. You gave the example of commercial development
               (Kelo). AFAIK, there were no commerical developers around
               when the constitution and the bill of rights were enacted.
               You MIGHT think you know how they would interpret the
               situtation, but do you really know? Esp. considering the
               fact that there were probably some at the constitutional
               convention who would have found no problem w/ the Kelo
               decision. Wouldn't it be better to have Justices who can
               see that perhaps we need rules that help order affairs
               in the reality of 21st century life rather than get stuck
               w/ rules that were suited to 18th-19th century life?
               \- wasnt part of the MARSHALL J. holding
                  in Barron v. Baltimore the takings clause
                  didnt apply to the states but just the
                  national govt? what you you crazy ori-
                  ginalists think about that?
                  \_ iirc, Barron was decided in the 1830s prior to
                     the 14th amd. At the time it was decided it was
                     correct b/c the 5th amd only apply to actions
                     by the federal gov and not the states. However,
                     the 14th amd (sec 1) made the 5th amd. applicable
                     to actions by the states, thus the holding in
                     Barron is no longer correct.
                     \- so the whole idea of the absorbption doctrine,
                        and the slaughterhouse cases and 14th amd
                        interpretation is a big area where these kinds
                        of originalist interpretations become difficult
                        or break down. like the meaning of "congress shall
                        make no law" in the 1st amd no longer has the
                        "scope" of only applying to the congress eventhough
                        it "plainly" says so.
        \_ The Founding Fathers deliberately set up a balance of powers
           arrangement so that the different branches of government could
           serve as checks on each other. If the SC turns itself into
           a rubber stamp for the legislature, or even worse, the executive,
           they will weaken one leg of the stool. Plus, even what exactly
           a "strict" constitutionalist changes over time, as our notions
           of equality and fair play and even the definitions of words change.
           Furthermore, technology and other changes have made parts of the
           Constitution obsolete. Isn't $10 still the limit for immigration
           taxes somewhere and $20 the limit for trails by jury?
2005/7/19-22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:38719 Activity:kinda low
6/19    Re: "strict constructionist" below.  I can't see how anyone would want
        a SCOTUS judge to not be strict constructionist.  If they follow the
        document then we don't get wonky rulings like the expansion of eminent
        domain and the excuse of interstate commerce to trample on states'
        rights.  Furthermore, it means we the people change the consitution
        through elected officials (many of them have to act together) rather
        than 9 or so appointed judges.  So, if you disagree with the strict
        constructionist philosophy, please argue your case.  I really don't see
        the other side of it and I'd like to change that. -emarkp
        \- "strict constructionist" or "fundamental fairness" and other such
           terms are can get universal agreement but they mean different
           things to different people. to take a geek turn, two people can
           think 'object oriented programming' is good and mean different
           things by it. a judicial philosophy is more than two words long ...
           and isnt even a list of "two words phrases" ... "i believe in
           'original intent' and 'strict constructionism' and 'stare decisis'
           and  the 'plain meaning' of the constitution."
           see e.g. Cardozo: Nature of the Judicial Process.
        \_ Let me preface my comments by saying that Justices ought to
           primarily interpret the law not create it. However, in some
           cases they need to be flexible enough to mold the law into a
           particular direction that is favorable for society as a whole.
           \_ I see this as a problem.  Who decides what's faborable for
              society as a whole?  Society should.  And we should do it through
              constitutional amendments if necessary, or by state and federal
              legislature if not. -emarkp
              \_ The judiciary has a role in molding the development
                 of society as much as the legislature does. Often
                 judges are asked to interpret laws for situations
                 that were not envisioned by the the people who framed
                 the law. Instead of automatically deferring to the
                 legislature (when/if they get around to dealing w/
                 the issues instead of bonking their interns or taking
                 bribes), it would be preferable for judges to suggest a
                 manner in which the law should develop. If the judicary
                 makes a mistake, the legislature can always fix it via
                 statutory enactment or constitutional amendment.
                 \_ Here's where we disagree then.  I see SCOTUS as having a
                    very narrow purpose, and that's making sure laws passed by
                    congress don't violate the constitution.  Of the three
                    branches of gov't, the congress should be the strongest and
                    the judges (not elected, not removable) the weakest.
                    \_ Okay. If you view the congress has having the
                       strongest role and the judiciary as having a
                       merely passive role, I can agree that you want
                               \_ I don't see 9 people striking down
                                  legislation approved by 536 people as
                                  "passive". -emarkp
                                  \_ Is there a particular act you are
                                     talking about, or are you speaking
                                     in general? I find it hard to
                                     believe that anyone can think that
                                     the vast majority of legislation
                                     has unanimous approval of the
                                     house and senate (or that it
                                     reflects the views of more than
                                     perhaps a mere majority of the
                                     voters - and if it is a mere
                                     majority then the cts must serve
                                     as a check on the tendency of
                                     to resort to mob rule)
                                     \_ Not any particular act.  Just the
                                        congress + president as a whole in
                                        principle.  I guess another way to look
                                        at it is that 337 people can pass an
                                        act (2/3 of house and senate to
                                        override a veto), but 5 people could
                                        smack it down (SCOTUS majority).
                                        \_ Personally I feel safer that
                                           there are at least 5 people
                                           in the country who can smack
                                           down the BS that comes out
                                           of congress. Without a strong
                                           and independent judiciary
                                           to keep a check on congress
                                           we would quickly descend
                                           into mob rule in which the
                                           rights of the minority would
                                           basically be ignored.
                                           \_ I agree.  It's a good check.  The
                                              appointment for life is
                                              important--that way it takes
                                              decades to shift the entire
                                              makeup of the court, so one group
                                              can't easily dominate it.  But
                                              if it goes beyond a check it's a
                                              problem. -emarkp
                       judges who act in a limited way.
                       I, however, think of the judiciary as a feedback
                       system for the legislature. The legislature has
                       the primary role in setting national policy, &c.
                       Sometimes, the legislature doesn't do a good job
                       and fails to think things through. This is where
                       the ct can come in and make sure that things are
                       running smoothly. Actions taken by the court can
                       provide valuable feedback to the legislature to
                       get its act together and fix things rather than
                       just dink around discussing pay raises, and 1/2
                       dead people in FL.
           With that as a reference, here are some points re strict
           (1) Often its not clear what the rule actual is - congress will
               frequently enact legislation drawing power from various
               clauses in the constitution but fail to define key terms
               and the circuits will split over the meaning. The Court
               needs to have justices who can think about the long term
               effects of their actions and act appropriately. Acting like
               a curmudgeon and applying 18th-19th century principles to
               things like the Internet isn't realistic - the framers had
               no idea about this type of communication/commerce and you
               need judges who can look to the past for analogies but also
               look to the future.
               \_ There is something about your rhetoric I find vaguely
                  unsettling. -- ilyas
                  \_ Consider Sony for example. Yes there were people
                     using the VCR to violate copyright but it wasn't
                     clear that Sony had done anything wrong in making
                     a product that enabled this. The fact that the
                     ct saw its way clear to say that producing a product
                     w/o more wasn't enough to infringe copyright was a
                     big deal (Sony was going to be decided the other way
                     until one justice switched his vote, iirc b/c of
                     the implications of just a decision).
           (2) Sometimes you have a doctrine that is the "law" and is
               defended as such but in reality is just a cover for something
               more insidious like racism. In these situations you need to
               be flexible to stamp out behavior that has no place in a
               civilized society.
               \_ Again, who defines "civilized society"?  Again I argue that
                  society should, not a panel of judges. -emarkp
                  \_ So you would be willing to accept racism until
                     the states voluntarily decided to outlaw it?
                     And that was going to happen like NEVER. In
                     some instances, the states/people need a nudge
                     in the "right" direction.
                     \_ So you've turned prophet and caretaker now?  You can
                        say what would or would not happen?  You can decide
                        what the "right" direction is?  Here's a question:
                        aren't you concerned about a group of 9 people deciding
                        what's "right" for you?  What if all of them were
                        hardcore conservatives? -emarkp
                        \_ If you looked at the trends in desegregation
                           prior to Brown, it was pretty clear that the
                           state were doing NOTHING to overturn separate
                           but equal on their own.
                           This has nothing to do w/ me being a prophet,
                           it is just extrapolation based on the trends
                           that were present.
                           \_ Extrapolating to NEVER isn't justifiable IMO.
                              Public attitudes were changing, and I believe
                              it would have happened legislatively, but of
                              course I don't know for sure. -emarkp
                              \_ When would it be justifiable for the court
                                 to step in?  When 25 states had changed?  30?
                                 47?  Or never?
                           \_ This could be a whole different topic, but
                              you might be able to argue that there really
                              was a constitutional problem with the
                              implementation of seperate but equal.
                                 \_ Not the point.  I don't think it's valid to
                                    say that it would never change, nor do I
                                    think it's right for 5 people to determine
                                    what's "right" for society.  And on top of
                                    that, I agree with the person below re:
                                    PLessy v. Ferguson. -emarkp
                              \_ Extrapolation is never justifiable?
                                   \_ Read it again.  In this case,
                                      extrapolating "not yet" to "NEVER" isn't
                                      justified.  -emarkp
                                      \_ Perhaps NEVER is incorrect
                                         b/c almost every event has
                                         a small non-zero probability
                                         of occuring. Yes I could
                                         wake up tomorrow in Andromeda
                                         and know how to speak fluent
                                         Klingon, but its not bloody
                                 How do you order your future affairs
                                 w/o looking to the past/present and
                                 seeing trends?
                                 Re legislative intervention in Brown,
                                 I strongly disagree. I have friends
                                 in the south and there is still a
                                 tendency to treat "colored" people
                                 less favorably than "white" people.
                                 I really doubt that an southern
                                 state would voluntarily have integrated.
                           \_ I would argue that the example or Brown v.
                              Board of Education is invalid, because
                              Plessy v. Ferguson really was
                              unconstitutional by the 14th, IMHO.
                              \_ It is by no means clear that Plessy
                                 was wrongly decided under a strict
                                 constructionist or originalist view.
                                 Consider that the framers put in the
                                 3/5 compromise and the framers of
                                 the 14th amd also created segregated
                                 schools in Washington DC during the
                                 same session.
                                 No where in the text of the 14th
                                 amd does it say the same, it just
                                 says equal - as long as the facilities
                                 were equal, everything was kosher.
                                 In fact, in Brown, the Board of
                                 Education agreed that the schools
                                 were not equal and that they needed
                                 to fix them, what they didn't want
                                 was integration.
                           I am not sure why you think that a bunch
                           of conservatives would make me unhappy?
                           \_ Choose your bogeyman then. -emarkp
                           In general the conservatives tend to issue
                           opinions that are far more consistent w/
                           a free/open society than the liberals.
                           As an example, when the issue of police
                           use of thermal imagers w/o a warrant was
                           presented to the court, it was conservatives
                           who held that this use violated the 4th amd.
                           The liberals were all for letting the cops
                           do whatever they wanted. It is not clear
                           that a strict interpetation of the 4th amd
                           would have found that a thermal imager was
                           a search and thus fell under the 4th amd.
               I would point to separate but equal as an example - clearly
               the intent behind the doctrine was racist and it needed to be
               ended, but the strict constructionism stood in the way of
               this. This was a state law issue, but the states weren't
               doing anything about it. Second, congressional intent when
               the 14th amd was drafted seemed to show that segregation
               was constitutional b/c the same congress created segregated
               schools in DC. The Court had to be flexible to get around
               the doctrine.
           (3) Reasonable minds can differ as to how the framers would
               apply or interpret parts of the constitution to modern
               situations. You gave the example of commercial development
               (Kelo). AFAIK, there were no commerical developers around
               when the constitution and the bill of rights were enacted.
               You MIGHT think you know how they would interpret the
               situtation, but do you really know? Esp. considering the
               fact that there were probably some at the constitutional
               convention who would have found no problem w/ the Kelo
               decision. Wouldn't it be better to have Justices who can
               see that perhaps we need rules that help order affairs
               in the reality of 21st century life rather than get stuck
               w/ rules that were suited to 18th-19th century life?
               \- wasnt part of the MARSHALL J. holding
                  in Barron v. Baltimore the takings clause
               \- wasnt part of the MARSHALL J. holding in
                  Barron v. Baltimore the takings clause
                  didnt apply to the states but just the
                  national govt? what you you crazy ori-
                  ginalists think about that?
                  \_ iirc, Barron was decided in the 1830s prior to
                     the 14th amd. At the time it was decided it was
                     correct b/c the 5th amd only apply to actions
                     by the federal gov and not the states. However,
                     the 14th amd (sec 1) made the 5th amd. applicable
                     to actions by the states, thus the holding in
                     Barron is no longer correct.
                     \- so the whole idea of the absorbption doctrine,
                        and the slaughterhouse cases and 14th amd
                        interpretation is a big area where these kinds
                        of originalist interpretations become difficult
                        or break down. like the meaning of "congress shall
                        make no law" in the 1st amd no longer has the
                        "scope" of only applying to the congress eventhough
                        it "plainly" says so.
        \_ The Founding Fathers deliberately set up a balance of powers
           arrangement so that the different branches of government could
           serve as checks on each other. If the SC turns itself into
           a rubber stamp for the legislature, or even worse, the executive,
           they will weaken one leg of the stool. Plus, even what exactly
           a "strict" constitutionalist changes over time, as our notions
           of equality and fair play and even the definitions of words change.
           Furthermore, technology and other changes have made parts of the
           Constitution obsolete. Isn't $10 still the limit for immigration
           taxes somewhere and $20 the limit for trails by jury?
            \_ The 7th amd sets the min limit for trial by jury as $20
               for suits at common law.
2005/7/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:38560 Activity:nil
7/12    Illegal immigration brings yummy TB!
2005/6/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:38363 Activity:very high
6/29    Bush administration cancelled a border survey after the results weren't
        positive.  http://www.judicialwatch.org/5350.shtml
        I'm pretty much ready to sell my vote to whoever will actually control
        the border. -emarkp
        \_ who cares?
        \_ So in other words, controlling our border is the most important
           issue of all the issues facing America, to you?  Wow.
           \_ It's high on the list.  You have a problem with that?  Discuss
              rather than dismiss. -emarkp
              \_ War in Iraq, War on Terror (the former has become part of the
                 latter), Social Security, Global Warming, Health Care, and
                 southern state border crossings top all those?  Note, you
                 went from "sell my vote to..." to "high on the list".  "sell
                 my vote" sounds like "top", not "high".
                 \_ I said "pretty much".  I'm pissed about how nearly no
                    elected official will deal with the border.  I consider
                    border security as part of the WoT.  Iraq is slightly
                    higher on my list, SS won't ever change, I couldn't care
                    less about Global Warming--I'd prefer to get off oil
                    dependence because of economic and security reasons.
                    Health Care?  Burn it down and start over--but no one will
                    do that. -emarkp
                    \_ I've said it before, and I'll say it again: visa policy
                       that makes it hard for the good guys to get in is a
                       greater threat to America's longterm security than
                       keeping the bad guys out.  I don't mean to trivialize
                       the importance of keeping the bad guys out, but
                       America is in serious danger of losing our global
                       scientific dominance if we continue to have a visa
                       system based on mindless xenophobia and bureaucratic
                       \_ Ooookay.  How do you define "good guys"?  The
                          equivalent of H1Bs? -emarkp
                          \_ Post docs, professors at research universities,
                             phd scientists in top industrial R&D labs,
                             entrepreneurs.  American science relies on the
                             constant brain drain from everywhere in the
                             world.  Kill that, and you kill our dominance.
                             I don't want to live in a world where Communist
                             China is the dominant force in science.
                             \_ Sounds good to me. -emarkp
                       \_ Yes, and our current system is stupid because it
                          gets BOTH wrong.
                          \_ Hey, you'll get no no arguements from me on that
                             one.  The border needs to be a transistor, not
                             a resistor.
        \_ So why not punish companies that hire undocumented immigrants?
           Now there are no jobs for them, the grapevine stops convincing them
           to come here.  Starve demand rather than trying to head off supply.
           With lower volume of traffic at the borders, it would be easier
           to police.
           \_ There's no reason not to do both:  punish employers who hire
              illegal immigrants, and deport illegal immigrants.  -emarkp
              \_ why do you care so much?   -tom
                 \_ Coming from the guy to takes it on himself to share with
                    the MOTD what he does/doesn't fine funny?
                 \_ Why do you ask? -emarkp
                    \_ Because it seems petty and foolish.
                       Oh, I forgot, it's emarkp.  -tom
                           \- and tom knows petty and foolish. --psb
                       \_ Whereas you just show up for the purpose of urinating
                          on other threads.  Do you have a problem with
                          enforcing immigration laws? -emarkp
                          \_ It's funny because it's true. -- ilyas
                       \_ How about the millions that is spent on healthcare
                          for illegal immigrants, when it is not provided
                          for taxpayers.  That, and the ridiculous notion
                          that we _should_ have control over immigration
                          are some of the reasons I care.  -mrauser
                              \- I am not taking a stand on the "entitlements
                                 for illegal immigrants" issue [although i
                                 think maybe you can consider sending a bill
                                 to their employers], but what do you think
                                 about the state playing for medical care for
                                 CRIMINALS? --psb
                          \_ What is the cost of trying to guard 10,000
                             miles of border?  -tom
                             \_ Our beloved tom seems to have gotten into his
                                head that the only way to stop illegal
                                immigration is to guard the border directly.
                                What's wrong with going after employers that
                                give illegal immigrants jobs?  (Note: I am
                                myself undecided on the illegal immigration
                                issue given the current state of the US.)
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Why should we?  The benefit is quite
                                   unclear.  -tom
                                   \- the real security issue, the CYA
                                      security issue, the economic issue and
                                      the political pandering w.r.t. to
                                      both legal and illegal immigration are
                                      different matters. benefits, employment
                                      etc dont have any relevance to the
                                      "terrorisits infiltration" issue.
                                      of course plent of terrorists may be in
                                      via legal channels.
                                      \_ I would be interested to see any data
                                         on how terrorists enter the US.
                                          -- ilyas
2005/6/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38191 Activity:nil
6/19    The great management consultancy ripoff:
        \_ Sensationalism, to a degree.  My girlfriend works for one of these,
           and their billing is far more straightforward--each project is
           sold with x% fixed expenses on top.  The problems with a lot of
           management consultancy projects are far more subtle--things like
           failing to draw the line at helping a customer's management fuck
           up a company through short-sighted cost cutting, etc.  -John
           \_ Yeah, like moving jobs to India.  I heard that some management
              finally realize that it's not a great idea after all.
2005/6/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:38056 Activity:high
6/9     "The last two decades have witnessed a revival of the American credo
        of personal responsibility, championed by conservatives as an
        all-purpose tonic to every social ill." I will agree that many
        conservatives use personal responsibility as the solution to all
        life's problems. However, I also get upset when liberals seem to run
        from personal responsibility too.  I think that this is a false
        choice. The fact is we need both personal responsibility and social
        responsibility. People need to responsible for the lives they are
        given and be responsible for their fellow man and woman. It's not an
        either/or, but a both/and.  I need to find a job. That's my
        responsibility, not the government's. However it should be the
        government's responisibility to make sure I have adaquate health
        care, and other stablizers in order to keep me slipping towards
        poverty. That's what makes a social contract: I will do something
        for you and in return you will do something for me.  As a pragmatic
        moderate who is experiencing economic insecurity, I know we need to
        have government play a more expanded role. However, let's not
        sideline personal responsibility in process.
        \_ From what I have seen with my own eyes, the actual number of
           cases where people are simply unwilling to find a job is nearly
           negligible compared to the cases where economic realities are
           enough to make socialized assistance a good idea. Living in
           Berkeley was not good for my perspective since that "negligible"
           number of people were right in my face everyday. Outside Berkeley,
           I've mainly seen people working their asses off and barely getting
           by. From that I've concluded that personal responsibility, at least
           as far as getting a job, is an easy go-to emotional push button for
           people who don't think socialized assistance (and that comes in many
           many forms) is a good idea. It is an easy way to distract otherwise
           well meaning people from a larger reality. -- ulysses
           \_ A large majority of Republicans would say that people working
              their asses off and barely getting by is how it should work.
              The people working their assess off and doing better than that
              "deserve" it because they came up with a better mousetrap, or
              are children of those who already succeeded (inheritance, family
              connections).  They also say the lazy wealthy will spend all
              their cash in one generation, and it's no one's right to tax
              their inheritance away -- their kids will be working their asses
              off and barely getting by again.
              \_ Actually the Chinese say that.  It's an old proverb that says
                 "wealth doesn't last past 3 generations".  There's also an
                 old Chinese proverb to the effect that "weath creation is
                 hard, but wealth maintenance is even more difficult."
                 \_ The Chinese also say something to the effect of "Only the
                    good die young".
                    \_ Don't know that one.  Lots of famously Chinese sayings
                       really aren't.  What is it in Chinese?
                       \_ I'll go ask my girlfriend.  Maybe she got it off of
                          soap operas or wu xia novels.
                          \_ There is a descriptive phrase that says "noble
                             spirit is dead early", but this is descriptive
                             rather than prescriptive.
                    \_ The good die young because only the young die good.
        \_ You know, I had been experiencing economic insecurity more than once
           in my life, but it never occurred to me to conclude I need the
           government to play a greater role in my life and help me.  People
           are very different I guess.  There is this microloan bank (fully
           peasant-owned) in South-East Asia somewhere.  They are doing really
           well (most of their loans are not defaulted on).  This is because
           for most poor people there, it is a matter of honor to return the
           loan, so they work hard on their 'microbusiness' which the loan
           helped them bootstrap, and almost always end up better off, and
           paying off the loan.  Most poor people HATE relying on charity.
           Do you know how I learned about this bank?  Dr. Breyer (Inktomy fame)
           Do you know how I learned about this bank?  Dr. Brewer (Inktomy fame)
           was giving a talk at UCLA about, among other things, how
           charity-based efforts to uplift the third world poor tend to work
           badly, while capitalist methods like microloans tend to be very
           effective.  -- ilyas
           \- microcredit is good at some problems but it isnt going to
              help with things like malaria, flood control, post-flood
              recovery, arsenic in the water etc [BTW, this list is based
              on development issue in bangladesh, where the grameen bank
              started, not SE Asia]. what about govt promostion of business?
              started, not SE Asia]. what about govt promotion of business?
              this isnt just obvious corporate pork or things like tax holidays
              but subtler things like city leaders going on trade promotion
              tours, the import-export bank etc.
              \_ Breyer's thesis is that 'development' (which is the real
              tours, the import-export bank etc. --psb
              \_ Brewer's thesis is that 'development' (which is the real
                 way to affect things like malaria and response to natural
                 disasters) has to happen in a capitalist way, or it is not
                 sustainable.  The typical example he gave was a World Bank
                 project going in, spending some money for a few years, and
                 leaving once the grant ran out.  The structures they have
                 build immediately dissipate because charity does not build
                 sustainable development structures, whereas a business does.
                 I don't think he was particularly hung up on microloans as
                 the universal panacea, nor was he saying charity has no place.
                   -- ilyas
                   \- to say development is the way to solve something like
                      endemic malaria or various other problems killing
                      10x the tsunami's total death toll per year is just
                      an excuse to do nothing, a lot like the people who
                      keep saying "oh first we have to solve the governance
                      and transparancy issues otherwise we will be throwing
                      good money after bad". without a doubt these long terms
                      policies are what do you need to accomplish long term
                      results and solutions but to avoid the problem is to
                      consign a lot of people to cheaply avoidable death and
                      \_ Partha you often accuse libertarians and
                         market-oriented folks of 'ulterior motives' for their
                         beliefs.  Why is that?  Do you really think they are
                         really more likely than any other political group of
                         having ulterior motives?  Actually this touches on
                         'the motivation problem' which is something that
                         has been on my mind for many years now.  At any rate,
                         I don't think those kinds of arguments are very
                         convincing.  It's kind of like accusing the pro-charity
                         folks of having excuses for feeding unjust
                         dictatorships.  -- ilyas
                                 \- go count how many reasonably
                                    well governed countries there are
                                    in africa that could use some help.
                                    there is more to africa than
                                    uganda, congo, sierra leone, liberia,
                                    sudan etc. you never hear about most
                                    of those countries.
                                       \- BTW, I think you should be more
                                          specific when you are talking about
                                          charities. I am not sure whether
                                          you are talking about the SF Opera
                                          or Breast Cancer or organic food
                                          in the ghetto or free cateract
                                          operations for poor people in the
                                          3rd world. why do some rightwingers
                                          only talk about the latter kind of
                                          thing as fostering a culture of
                                          dependence? hey let's have breast
                                          cancer sufferers suck it up and the
                                          SF opera singers can build their own
                                          sets. --psb
                                          \-Finally: it really says something
                                            about the right-wing today to have
                                            me lumped in with the leftists.
                                            I mean this is truly new levels
                                            of mendacity ... doesnt mining
                                            nicaraguan harbors or iran-contra
                                            just seem quaint now. --psb
                         \- my point about randroids is pretty specific.
                            my overall view is a lot of libertarians dont care
                            about others and dont choose to admit it and
                            a lot of liberals dont want to admit there are a
                            lot of stupid poor people who dont know what is
                            best for themselves so they let libertarians
                            bash them over and over with "are you saying
                            poor people dont know what is best for them" ...
                            yes, a lot of parents dont give a rats ass about
                            their kids, yes, a lot of people are too dumb to
                            manage their money. thats part of the problem with
                            some voucher and privatization plans. dumb richer
                            people can game the system after making a mistake
                            [orange county bailout]. there is a lot of
                            hypocrisy on both sides [family values sex fiends,
                            leftwingers advocating things that will drive up
                            costs of goods for poor people]. the angry
                            right wing mobilize in a way that advances their
                            interests while the angry left wing just foams.
                            the moderate left wing are too hedonistic to
                            bother to do much. the moderate leftwin now
                            consderates any day a democratic congressman
                            doesnt wet his pants on TV a successful day, see
                            recent judicial "compromise". the moderate right
                            wing is assessing whether they can throw money
                            at the problem and avoid the problems the angry
                            right might drag them into. --psb
                            \_ Firstly, I find it supremely amusing you wrote
                               4 separate replies.  Secondly, I was not lumping
                               you with anybody, although I would say your
                               beliefs qualify you for a 'liberal' in the
                               American sense.  Thirdly, to reiterate a point
                               I perhaps did not state sufficiently strongly,
                               I have no problems with charities.  I love
                               charities, in fact, because I view them as a
                               more viable alternative over government-managed,
                               tax-funded programs, in many cases.
                               \- on a lot of specific policy areas ...
                                  regulating pollution and other environmental
                                  issues, trade unions, free trade, tort law,
                                  govt paid for sex change operations ... i
                                  hardly endorse the traditional liberal
                                  position. but it's hard for to ignore
                                  hypocrisy, racism, and rank criminality
                                  because i agree with them on welfare
                                  reform. if i have to choose between some
                                  loser getting a free sex change operation
                                  and halliburton ripping us off for millions
                                  of dollars, it doesnt really matter to me
                                  whether the transsexual is straight, gay
                                  or bisexual. for example i have a reasonably
                                  hard attitude toward illegal immigration,
                                  but 1. the arguments for and against free
                                  trade in goods largely apply to free movement
                                  of labor 2. this new idea of creating a
                                  semi-official second class status of persons
                                  is really offensive ... it isnt excused by
                                  being pareto superior. the right is sinking
                                  to a new low on big issues that are hard to
                                  ignore or compromise on becaues of their
                                  extremeism or magnitude.
                         having ulterior motives? -- ilyas
                         more likely than any other political group to have
                         ulterior motives? -- ilyas
                                  \_ I suspect libertarians such as ilyas are
                                     actually a bit handicapped understanding
                                     the perception of the libertarian pov.
                                     ilyas, alone among the libertarians who
                                     I've read here over the years, generally
                                     sounds like he's convinced libertarianism
                                     is a correct means to an end. All the rest
                                     I've read, my impression has been that one
                                     scratched their argument a bit and it was
                                     a bit of Limbaugh-esque flim-flam painted
                                     over naked greed or blame-mongering.
                                     -- ulysses
           \_ Everyone agrees microloans > charity, doing nothing.
              However, is it that:
              microloans > charity > doing nothing, or
              microloans > doing nothing > charity
              Also, above poster contends certain things are difficult to
              microloan on.
              \_ I would say charity is better than doing nothing, but I
                 think charity tends to be a very inefficient means to
                 achieve desirable long-term positive effects, because of
                 the mentioned lack of sustainability of effects charity
                 produces.  I think people who want to enact long-term
                 change ought to spend more time thinking about the best
                 way to spend their charitable contributions than just
                 blindly give to a charity, and telling their conscience
                 to shut up.  Breyer gave an example of developing a
                 malaria blood tester machine that can be used 'in the field'
                 as a PhD thesis.  Then you can put in your CV "my work
                 saved 50 million lives."  -- ilyas
                 way to help than just blindly give to a charity, and telling
                 their conscience to shut up.  Breyer gave an example of
                 their conscience to shut up.  Brewer gave an example of
                 developing a malaria blood tester machine that can be used
                 'in the field' as a PhD thesis.  Then you can put in your CV
                 "my work saved 50 million lives."  Hard to argue with that.
                 This touches on a larger philosophical problem of moral
                 actions being generally uncomputable (you don't have time,
                 \_ I think most people agrees with what you wrote,
                    up to ".  Breyer ...".
                 and doing nothing is also immoral). -- ilyas
                     \- i am not familar with your "blood tester" but you can
                        look at jay keasling's [ucb/lbl] work on "e coli"
                        factories to bring down the cost of an anti-malarial
                        as well as something like ashok gadgil's [lbl]
                        UV waterworks. BTW, i am sure Brewer is a "breyte"
                        guy [are we talking about Brewer?] but why dont you
                        read a development export on this stuff? like say
                        jeffrey sachs or AMARTYA SEN. you might be interested
                        in SEN: DEVELOPMENT AS FREEDOM. --psb
                        in SEN: DEVELOPMENT AS FREEDOM.
                        \_ It is Brewer, sorry.  Fixed.  I forget what disease
                           the field blood tester was for.  It might not have
                           been malaria. -- ilyas
                 \_ I think most people agree with what you wrote,
                    up to ".  Breyer ...".  As for Breyer, well, I think he's
                    up to ".  Brewer ...".  As for Brewer, well, I think he's
                    just stating the obvious, except he is a startup founder
                    and Berkeley CS professor (but that's just my opinion).
                    The "obvious" being:
                    microloans (and other aid which encourages self-reliance
                    and comes with long-term benefits)
                      > short-term charity, doing nothing
                    \_ If, as you say, most people agree with what I wrote,
                       it is very curious that there is so much controversy
                       about whether it is better to uplift the poor in the
                       United States using capitalist or charity-based methods.
                       Is there something fundamentally different between the
                       situation here and in the Third World? -- ilyas
                         \- yes. in jeffrey sachs rather disturbing phrase,
                            some people are "too poor to live". by and large
                            the poverty in the united states is not "the
                            poverty that kills". --psb
                            \_ Yes, I am of course aware of that.  This
                               actually makes the 'uplift through charity'
                               argument harder in the case of the US poor.
                       \_ Let's go back to:
                          Everyone agrees microloans > charity, doing nothing.
                          However, is it that:
                          microloans > charity > doing nothing, or
                          microloans > doing nothing > charity
                          The problem is that the process hasn't been created
                          to efficiently microloan everything but only a
                          limited number of projects.
                          Let's say the U.S. government could potentially spend
                          $10 on aid.  Practically speaking, we can only spend
                          $1 on microloan type stuff.  So, do you:  spend $9
                          on charity, keep the $9 (do nothing), spend $4.5 on
                          charity and keep the rest, spend $9 on developing the
                          process for microloan type stuff and give nothing
                          to charity, or some combination of the above?
                          It is on these practical issues on which most of
                          the substantive arguments are about.
                          Plus, you have Dems who think that GOPers prefer
                          doing nothing over giving charity and think
                          micro-loans are really about doing nothing; and
                          you have GOPers who think Dems prefer giving charity
                          over doing nothing and micro-loans.
                          From my perspective both parties are making the wrong
                          assumptions about the other side, and this is a
                          major part of what a lot of the bickering is about.
                          In an ideal world, both parties are having arguments
                          on the substantive differences, not the imagined
                          ones, but oh well (what better way to rally the base
                          than to say that the other side would like nothing
                          better than spending zilch on charity, or say the
                          other side prefers putting the lazy on the dole
                          In the real world (which includes soda), the vast
                          majority of arguments are about imagined differences,
                          or are situations where 80% of the difference is
                          imagined/non-substantive and 20% of it is
                          majority of arguments are situations where 80% of the
                          difference is imagined/non-substantive and 20% of it
                          is substantive.
                          \_ I don't think this is really true.  Some people
                             really do not trust market and self-interest-based
                             solutions. -- ilyas
                             \_ I am not excluding that.
                                People who understand the valid points held by
                                the other side are having the substantive
        \_ So you are experiencing economic insecurity and you want the gov
           to fix it all up for you? What is this kindgarten? If you are
           really worried about economic insecurity, why don't you save money
           to get through the tough times?  How about trying to get another
           degree or something?
           \- if you owe the bank $100, you have a problem. if you owe the
              bank $1m, the bank has a problem.
              \_ Why get yourself in a position where you owe the bank
                 $1m (or $100) and don't have the means to pay? (Serious
                 question - I've never carried long term debt and don't
                 understand why you would want to)
2005/5/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37881 Activity:nil
5/28    williamc, while many of us accept that you're ugly, you're also
        pretty dumb [for an Asian]. We suggest that you give a hard look at
        yourself before you decide to flame back. We wish you well.
        \_ Dumb? I think not.  I think the appropriate label for him is "bad
           person", and "bad citizen".  The "love it or leave it" crowd are one
           of the more loathesome components of the American political scene.
           Just by fouling our country with their bullshit attitude, they
           make America a worse place to live.  I suppose he thinks America
           would be a better place if everyone who has fought to improve
           something that was wrong with our country for the last 200 years had
           just picked up and left instead of fighting for change?
        \_ Yes, your ad hominem attacks are indeed very intelligent of you.
           As for your political views, why are you so defensive when
           someone disagrees with you? After all, isn't the point of political
           debate to foster discussion? As for "love it or leave it," instead
           of complaining about it why don't you actually try to come up
           with some real solutions instead of whining about it? As for your
           political views, I would urge you to closely examine all issues
           on both sides of the fence before coming down to conclusions that
           "bush is bad" or "we have to kill all the terrorists". Unfortunately
           the world is much more nuanced than the political propogandists
           would lead you to believe. As for idiotic proposals that we've
           seen recently, they include:
           1. Suggesting that everyone ride a bike (very smart).
           2. We begin protesting just for protests sake (save your energy).
           3. There actually needs to be a discussion on evolution (save
              your breath).
           4. We should support a people who celebrated 9/11 (the Palestinians)
           Now, whether you are a conservative, a liberal, a libertarian, etc.
           if you went to Berkeley and had an iota of common sense you'd realize
           that any of these ideas are pretty dumb. If you don't like people
           responding to your political views, then don't post them.
           Anyway, send me an email if you really want to debate any of these
           topics. We can pick a forum and we can have at it. -williamc
           \_ You've been trolled. Yes, you're very smart.
        \_ While I don't like your personal attack, I do agree that it's
           important to keep an open mind. This country was founded by
           immigrants and visionaries who continually shaped America a
           better place to live. Our fathers have done a lot of good things
           from Emancipation, Women's Sufferage, all the way to Civil Rights.
           I've lived in US most of my life and have been taught that
           America's the best place in the world. I think that may be true,
           but as I get older and have more opportunities to travel abroad
           I also see a lot of good things in other countries like Canada
           and Denmark. Just because our country is the greatest doesn't
           mean we should stop making it even better. Our fathers have done a
           lot of good things, and we should too. I love America, and I
           also have some things I think could be improved. That is why I
           refuse to leave America. I will stay here, and fight for things
           that matter to people, like more tolerance, more compassion,
           better city planning/transportation, and more accountability in
           both the government and corporations. If anyone tells you to "get
           the fuck out of US", that person is narrow minded to a point that
           he/she is unable to take any criticism and should be the one to
           get the fuck out of US. So do us a favor and stay. Continue the
           tradition our fathers have made by continually making America a
           better place to live.
2005/5/27-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:37864 Activity:low
5/27    Protesters against the Minuteman Project get violent:
        Cracks me up.  Everyone calling the minutemen "vigilantes" and it's
        their opponents that are violent.
        \_ Do I have this straight?  Netkin drives his van into the
           parking lot.  It is surrounded and attacked by protestors.  He
           drives out of the group of protestors.  There are two things I
           don't understand.  1) The article describes him as "[driving]
           his van into a crowd of protesters."  Didn't he drive OUT? 2)
           Apparently no one was hurt, so he must have driven very slowly.
           So why do they want him prosocuted?
        "The protesters blocked the entrance and tossed soda cans and cans
        packed with marbles at police and attendees, Handfield said. They
        kicked, banged and threw rocks at cars; some wore latex gloves and
        hoods so they wouldn't be identified by police, Handfield said. Some
        attendees decided not to enter the building because they feared
        \_ I must say the Minuteman Project has been a pretty big embarassment
           for the Federal government. -- ilyas
           \_ "I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America. I'm for
              enforcing the law in a rational way.  That's why you got a
              Border Patrol, and they ought to be in charge of enforcing the
              border." -Dubya, Mar 23 2005
              \_ Dubya's immigration policies are one of the biggest problems
                 conservatives have with him.
                 \- well, it just reveals "conservatives" [dumb uneducated
                 hicks and CEOs] arent a monolithic entity. again the illegal
                 immigration problem is easy to solve by penalizing employers
                 but the hypociritical consevatives dont want to do that.
                   \_ Wow,  You start by saying the conservatives aren't
                      monolithic, and then you make 2 sweeping
                      generalizations about conservatives.  You == awesome!
                      \- in particular i was referring to the hypocritical
                         freemkt conservatives who lobby for corporate
                         welfare. ok? some simplifications miss something
                         essential, some simplifications are useful. --psb
                         \_ I've been hearing conservatives screaming for
                            enforcement of employers, not a one dissenting.
                            \_ If the majority in power in the government were
                               actually for this, don't you think it would have
                               happened?  This is more laissez faire bullshit.
                               By their actions, ye will know them.
                            \_ Who is against this? Our democracy is broken
                               when so many years go by with such an obvious
                               sidestepping around the central problem here,
                               and focussing on the immigrants themselves
                               rather than theier employers who know better.
                            \_ is it possible uneducated hicks are drowning
                               out the special access CEOs and that's why you
                               only hear screaming
                               \_ false dichotomy
                                  \_ strawman
                                     \_ non sequitur
        \_ So this dude drives his car into a crowd, hits some people
           and then cries about it when someone breaks his window.
           Do I have the sequence of events right here?
           \_ Ummm... no. " In addition to surrounding his vehicle,
              protesters broke the window of another vehicle, Handfield
2005/5/18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:37747 Activity:high
5/18    "Mexicans go to Ariz. for medical help - Yahoo! News"
        See how much money, how many jobs, and how many medical wards
        non-immigrant foreigners are costing us.
        \_ I know this sounds goofy, but go watch "A Day Without a
           Mexican". It's fairly sappy at times, but there are a few
           interesting non-subtle points made.
        \_ They need to report the data for poor American citizens receiving
           free emergency care, too, along with an estimate of how much money
           and how many jobs it's costing.
           Then if people want to be dicks about it, we can restrict visas
           for foreigners seeking free emergency medical care, or repeal the
           law requiring emergency care for non-citizens altogether.
           It's our right to make being dicks into government policy, but
           I suggest we also have all the information before doing so.
        \_ This puts me in mind of software companies that claim that
           hackers cost them millions of dollars. What is this number based
           on? Are the prices accurate? Do they reflect labor and parts in
           any real way? Or are they based on covering medical malpracice
           insurance and medical school bills?
2005/5/16 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:37710 Activity:high
5/16    Report: Suspected Cop Killer's Family Flees To Mexico
2005/5/6-9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:37551 Activity:nil
5/6     The last few pages of my passport say "Amendments and
        Endorsements".  Are these pages usable for normal
        entering/exiting countries, or do I need to get extra pages
        added if this is all that remains blank in my passport?
        \- Well you have to consider who cares about and gives you the
           visa. Typically a country will say "your passport is full"
           and refuse to put the visa on the A/E page. However, when you
           show up at the airport in Swaziland, I suppose you could claim
           it was their embassy that put it there. I'm not saying it wont ever
           work, but it is a bad idea. [what if something like a schengen
           visa is used to cover up something?]. BTW, many countries have a
           "jumbo" passport for drug mules er people expecting a lot of stamps.
           i would be kind of curious what the us immigration would do if
           some other country decided to cover up one of you A/E pages. --psb
2005/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:37531 Activity:high
5/5     Heh.  It's hard to make a pinko happy: http://csua.org/u/byq
        \_ No, it's easy.  Just put them in charge.  It's more of an "I'm
           always right" ideology.
2005/4/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:37117 Activity:nil
4/8     Harvesting Illegals
2005/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:36977 Activity:high
3/30    So what do people here think of the Minuteman Project in Arizona, and
        the response of the ACLU and Vicente Fox? -emarkp
        \_ I don't know anything about it, URL from CNN or http://Fox.com?
           \_ http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050330-125346-1389r.htm
              or just plain:
        \_ If they stick to never actually confronting immigrants, it sounds
           legal. It's certainly an excellent diversionary tactic given there's
           been no sign so far that any terrorists have tried to come up
           via Mexico. Blaming brown people has worked well as a pretty good
           rallying call for the right. I also predict Fox won't get any help
           from Bush this time since Bush doesn't need the Latino vote anymore.
            -- ulysses
        \_ If you ever lived in Southern California for over 10+ years and
           attended public elementary to high school there, you'll know exactly
           how you feel. If you're Latino, you'll feel that S Cal is a great
           place where you get free subsidy and support from your own people.
           If you're not Latino, you'll think S Cal is a shithole, a perfect
           example of great wealth inequality where the richest and the
           poorest people living in one place. This imbalance of wealth
           contributes to conflicts unique in S. Cal. For example, S. Cal
           having the highest car insurance rate (1/4 are staged for insurance
           money), gangsters, drive-by shooting (my school had drive by twice),
           ethnic fights, etc.
                -someone who lived there +10 years and witnesses a lot of shit
           \_ ...that's right, those pesky Latinos are getting all of those
              subsidies, and that's what's wrong with everything. Dude, I'd
              tell you to go to hell, but there's no place possibly worse to
              live in than your own mind.
        \_ I'm anti ILLEGAL immigrant but I'm not anti immigrant. Extra border
           patrol will discourage drugs and contrabands into the US as well
           as discourage desperate people coming into the US, who usually get
           taken advantage of. If people want to come to the US, they should
           first learn a bit more about the country (not from Hollywood or
           magazines) and come in LEGALLY.      -parents who came in legally
           \_ you're a moron.
              \_ why is he a moron? You need to explain so he'll stop being one
                 \_ morons don't stop being morons.
                    \_ if that's true, I will stop trying to change tom
                    \- there is a certain amount of  hypocrisy for free
                       traders to be in favor of the free movement of
                       goods and capital but not labor. much of the
                       rationale for the efficiency gains of trade/$
                       apply to labor as well ... labor is another
                       "factor of production". --psb
                        \_ Although I agree, there are other factors
                          that are relevant to people (e.g. overpopulation
                          concerns, cultural effects, etc.) that are not
                          relavent to other factors of production.  I
                          have been for open borders most of my life, but
                          i'm not sure it is a very pragmatic stance.
                          The history of the world has been a history of
                          poverty and income/power disparity.  The U.S.
                          has managed (along with some other countries) to
                          overcome that state to some degree.  It is perhaps
                          justifiable to try to insulate it, if for no other
                          reason than to act as an example of what is possible
                          (though, i have to say, this rings false) -phuqm
                          \- yes i understand what you say, but there are
                             "other factors" that also apply to harmonizing
                             IP regimes, high capital mobility etc. but the
                             fundamental argument about "let the factors of
                             production find where they will get the best
                             return" and the ideas of comparative and abs
                             advantage apply to labor too. yes, letting
                             a lot of Changs, Mohammeds and Singhs into
                             a lot of Changs, Parthas and Mohammeds into
                             the country has "side effects" but so do
                             coke and pepsi, monsanto etc. --psb
                             Coke, Pepsi and Monsanto. --psb
                        \_ Labor can come here, they just have to do it
                           legally. I don't advocate allowing drug money
                           to move unhindered to offshore banks either.
                           Nothing hypocritical about it at all.
                           \-i dont think you understand what i mean by
                             free movement of labor.
                             \_ Then explain yourself.
           \_ Agreed.  Those who break the law should be punished, not awarded.
           \_ Why can't we just shoot them? I am getting sick and tired of all
              those mexicans standing on the street of SF looking for work, and
              all of them are illegal. They are potential terriorists, let's
              do what we do best, shoot first, ask questions later. It WILL solve
              the illegal alien problem.
              \_ Keep a tight grip on your soap when you're in jail for
                 shooting the wrong one.
                 \_ it's still murder, whether a citizen or an illegal.
                  \- how about we impose public lashings for people employing
                     illegal aliens unless they can come up with say a
                     photocopy of the forged documentation. --psb
        \_ The big problem is what happens when the Border Patrol doesn't
           send someone out. Say the INS is busy dealing with something else
           and the Minutemen call with a possible illegal. The INS looks bad
           because they're overwhelmed. The MM get peeved. Say this happens
           a dozen times. Will the MM get frustrated and do something stupid?
2005/3/29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:36955 Activity:nil
3/29    'Something is terribly, terribly wrong': Victor Davis
        Hanson on immigration "seeming insanity"
        \_ Yay!  It's swiftboat immigration ocd troll!
        \_ Mmm.. racist crap.
2005/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:36871 Activity:nil
3/25    Doing the jobs Americans won't do
        FAA licensed 5 arrested at TIMCO - airplane mechanics!
2005/2/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:36116 Activity:nil
2/9     Doing the jobs americans won't do
        Family Of Hit-And-Run Victim Angry That Illegal
        Immigrant Was Never Deported
2005/2/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:36086 Activity:high
2/7     I thought it was just me, but yes, the Superbowl was that boring
        (ads included) that there is nothing to post on the motd.  At
        least last year the half-time show was exciting.
        \_ So I take it Paul McCartney's pants didn't fall off?
        \_ Yes, it was boring and painful to watch.
        \_ You didn't see ilyas on the motorcycle in the truck commercial?
           \_ Uhm, last I met ilyas he had more than 2 teeth.
        \_ The only thing I know about the Superbowl is when I came into
           the office this morning, and my colleague told me I've won $25
           on the Superbowl pool.  To think that back in the old days, I
           can memorize the entire Cowboys, 49ers and Packers rosters.
                \_ Got yourself a life, did you?  Congrats.
                   \_ I don't know about that.  These days I have 3
                      bosses - work, church and my smart, beautiful
                      and kind hearted girlfriend who is, unfor-
                      tunately, also ambitious career-wise and
                      rather demanding of me, so I still don't have
                      a life.  She is currently back in Taiwan
                      for the holidays, so I get to have a one week
                      break.  I already miss her though.  Sigh ...
                      I even missed the Cal-USC game to go shopping
                      with her and her roommate.  The things you do
                      for love ....
                      \_ Sounds like "life" to me.  What you said is
                         pretty much what I meant.
                      \_ Way to sneak in the fact that you have a gf.
                         \_ Where's bdg when we need him?
                            \_ My guess: married again.
                               \_ I would rather be boiled in oil
                                  with molten lead being poured
                                  on my head than be married.
                      \_ Your "kind hearted" g/f forced you to go shopping
                         with her during the Cal-USC game??? You
                         are so pussy whipped dude.
                         \_ :(  She didn't force me.  I just decided
                            not to mention about it.  My gf is very
                            kind.  I mentioned some dish that I like,
                            and she made it the day before she left
                            for Taiwan.  She's so sweet.  But you
                            are right, I usually listen to my gf.
                            \_ How long have you been going out?
                               You just sound infatuated to me.
                               Which is nice, but it doesn't last
                               \_ 5 months.  I am infatuated.  She's
                                  the love of my life:
                The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.
                When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy
                went and sold all he had and bought that field.
                Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking
                for fine pearls.  When he found one of great value, he
                went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
                                                - Matthew 13:44-46
                                  \_ Please report back in 5 years.
                                     \_ I will keep my soda brothers
                                        posted every now and then.
                                  \_ You are confusing lust with religion.
                                     That's okay though, lots of people do.
                                     \_ I think you may be projecting
                                        your own lust onto someone
                \_ Where's the right-wing "all women are whores" guy?
                   \_ You don't have to be a right-wing nut to think that
                      all women are whores.  The fundamental relationship
                      reality is that the male is essentially an ATM card,
                      there to be exploited to provide material comfort and
                      security.  The trick for the female is to suffer the
                      least amount of inconvenience and discomfort while
                      extracting the greatest gain from the male.
                      \_ Hey, BDG is back!
                      \_ The thing is my gf actually comes from a rich
                         family, but she is herself very thrifty.  She
                         disapproves when her brothers spend too much
                         money.  I also thinks she spends too much time
                         returning stuff to walmart, meijers, outlet, etc.
                         due to her finding a better price somewhere else.
                         I have to keep reminding her that time is money.
                         She gets a lot of joy from finding really good
                         deals ($14 boots, $4 dress pants, etc.).  However,
                         she is very generous towards others.  She is bringing
                         back 140lbs (2 max weight luggages) worth of gifts
                         for her family and relatives in Taiwan.  I make fun
                         of her and says she looks like a refugee with the
                         2 huge luggages.  She is also generous to friends
                         here in the US.  She cooks food for others when
                         they get sick, etc.  That's why I say she is my
                         dream girl.
        \_ I found the opening ceremony disturbing because of the
           facist overtones. Am I the only one?
           fascist overtones. Am I the only one?
           \_ Yes. Bill Clinton, the men who landed in France on D-Day, and
              the Tuskegee airmen = Fascists? Oh, this is Berkeley.
              \_ You don't know much about the history of fascism, do you?
                 The marching out of war vets, the honoring of the aged,
                 now retired leader, the ranks of troops lined up with
                 precision, the airplanes screaming overhead, the chorus
                 singing songs of national pride in a reverent, almost
                 religious fashion... these are all straight out of fascism's
                 playbook. I am really disappointed in your education that
                 you do not recognize this, but I am not surprised. You
                 probably never get out of a computer lab.
                 \_ Uhm, use a dictionary and look up: patriotism, nationalism,
                    and fascism.  You sound like a happily indoctrinated
                    berkeley liberal.    -!pp
                    \_ You sound like you are ignorant of history. Pick up
                       _The_Rise_And_Fall_Of_The_Third_Reich and read about
                       the use of mass spectacle as a means of political
                       indoctrination. And if you seriously don't think that
                       nationalism and fascism are just differences of a
                       degree then you are more ignorant and dangerous
                       than I realized.
                       nationalism: the doctrine that your national
                       culture and interests are superiour to any other
                       \_ The difference is that I can actually think
                          \_ Maybe you can and maybe you can't. But you
                             haven't demostrated that ability so far.
                             \_ Wow, so because I don't agree with your wack
                                opinion, I'm not showing 'critical thinking'?
                                I may or may not have used good critical
                                thinking, but it's absolutely clear that you
                                have no clue what it is.  It's okay to admit
                                that you're wrong, dude -- it won't make you
                                look any sillier than you already do.
                                \_ Critical thinking is not demonstrated
                                   by hurling one sentence insults at people,
                                   which is all you had done up until this
                                   point. At least now I know you can
                                   construct an entire paragraph, but you
                                   still cannot develop an argument that
                                   consists of anything other than an
                                   Ad hominem attack followed by a logical
                                   fallacy. So no, you have still not
                                   demonstrated any evidence of "critical
                                   thinking." Here's a hint: display the
                                   slightest willingness or inclination to
                                   consider anything other than the spoon fed
                                   mainstream stance you have so far will show
                                   you have taken the first step.
                                   PS Go back and re-read the initial
                                   question that prompted your overemotional
                                   reply and consider that the aforementioned
                                   statement was actually very tentative
                                   and personal and asked a question. Any
                                   belief that it inferred anything else
                                   was a comprehension error on your part.
                                   \_ Uhm, it's the motd.  What is there to get
                                      emotional about?  You're the one that's
                                      posting novels after receiving replies
                                      repudiating your patronizing assertions
                                      to berkeley u/grads.  If the tone of the
                                      conversation is upsetting to you, perhaps
                                      you should look to your own comments
                                      \_ No, it is not upsetting me. I am
                                         just having fun with the discussion.
                                         Hopefully, mr. critical thinking is
                                         \_ Truthfully, Mr Critical Thinking
                                            thinks the whole conversation is
                                            amusing and silly.    -MCT
                       \_ Proof that a little bit of knowledge is a
                          dangerous thing.
                          \_ Proof that ignorance is bliss.
                             \_ Yes, remembering the Tuskegee airmen is
                                going to mobilize our country into a
                                totalitarian state. You are so wise.
                                \_ Is that all you saw in the warm up show?
                                   A memorial to Tuskegee airmen?
                       \_ From the people who brought us 'Dick Cheney = neocon'.
                          Btw, I think if Americans can truly be indoctrinated
                          into something evil with circuses we are truly fucked
                          regardless.  Trying to fight spectacles would be like
                          trying to fight a symptom, not the disease. -- ilyas
                          \_ I...I...think I agree with this.  How can this
                             BEEEEEEEE!  DEAR GOD, HOW?!?
           \_ If your talking about the re-enactment of the
              Declaration signing I would say, not facist, but definitely
              corny and stupid.  The actors were bad, and this is a
              footbal game, not the freakin' inauguration.  I like the
              people today reciting it though, that was cool.
              \_ Did they punt the Bill of Rights, that unruly little brother
                 to the Constitution?
2005/1/18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35778 Activity:high
1/18    http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/18/morocco.spain.ap
        Spanish King's concern on illegal immigration. Two ways I read
        this article:
        1) the Spanish King is very classy and expresses his concerns
           to Morrocco. The US government has no class and gives out
           this crude "fuck you immigrants" message.
        2) The classy Spanish King hates immigrants and uses his superior
           negociation skills (something that most American politicians
           lack) to get across his subtle "fuck you immigrants" message.
        What do you guys think?
        \_ I think anyone who bears the title of "king" from any nation can
           go fuck himself.
           \_ King George the 2nd from the USA!
              \_ I voted for Kerry, and I think Bush is a really shitty
                 president, but I'll take a shitty president over a king
                 any day of the week.  Fuck the King of Spain, and fuck
                 the English royal family.
                 \_ But the English royal family is just ceremonial ...
                    just like the emperor of Japan
                    \_ The emperor or Japan can go fuck himself, also.
2005/1/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35686 Activity:moderate
1/12    I have a friend who has to go to Taiwan for work occasionaly and he
        says all he can find is wierd bland seafood dishes.  What are some
        things he should order to satisfy an American palate?  And how do you
        pronounce them?
        \_ Tell him to try the durian.
        \_ "Mahk Doh nalds" -- You might have to order a royale with cheese.
          \_ you mean MAI DONG LAW!!! Every old Chinese immigrant I've met
             say that. And GO BO-KO-LAI! Go Beahs!
2005/1/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:35618 Activity:nil
1/8     Death row inmate seeks organ transplant
2005/1/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35579 Activity:high
1/6     "Yahoo! News - On the trail of 400,000 fugitives"
        80 agents trying to catch 400k fugitive immigrants out of 8M illegals.
        No wonder it didn't work.  The "catch and release" policy is also
        \- if anybody was serious about cheep labor immigration, one
           would move toward more pursuit/prosecution/penalties for
           hiring them. but nobody is going to go after big farmers,
           construction companies and the yuppie employers of domestic
           help. and now we return you to the war on drugs.
           hiring them.
2004/12/29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35469 Activity:high
12/29   For those who think the US is stingy:
        "According to the American Association of Fundraising Counsel, we gave
        nearly $241 billion to charity last year and have increased our giving
        every year for the last 40 except for 1987.
        "Clearly, Americans are a generous people, and we are willing to spread
        our wealth outside the country. Last year Paula Dobriansky, State
        Department undersecretary for global affairs, reported 'Americans
        privately give at least $34 billion overseas annually.'"
        \_ The quote should say that the American govt is generous.  Unless
           it's put up to a vote of the people, you can't conclude that the
           people are generous.
        \_ I wonder how badly the weak dollar is hurting the recipients of this
           US aid.
        \_ And yet we lag behind many other countries in giving in terms of
           \_ And your source is?  My understanding is that is only cash
              transactions from our government to another government.  This
              private giving isn't tracked at all.
              \_ E'ist:
              \_ http://tinyurl.com/6vhdu (economist)
                 Though looking at their source (http://www.jhu.edu/~cnp
                 I'm going to stop talking.  Our numbers don't look too shabby.
        \_ "That does not include the $10 billion in official U.S. foreign
            aid, though it does include $18 billion in remittances immigrants
            send to their home countries."
           In other words, Americans send $16B overseas annually, though how
           much of that is charity is unclear.
        \_ yeah, I believe that. US is owned, controlled, and run by the
           Corporation and the people who run the Corporation, and the
           government is just a facade.
2004/11/23 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:35037 Activity:high
11/32   Does anyone here actually object to changing the constitution to allow
        naturalized U.S. citizens to run for president?  If so, why?  It seems
        to me that "I don't want Arnie to be president" is a pretty bad
        \_ I am a neocon, I got signatures for Arnold, and I am naturalized
           citizen (when I was 10), and I oppose changing it. I dread the
           idea of a nut like Soros becoming President.
        \_ it's not like we can't snipe any one we dont want..
        \_ I don't object to the concept, I just don't trust that this isn't
           just demagoguery.  If it does happen, I'd like it to be a drawn
           out process so that I can see other people's ideas about the pros
           and cons of this amendment.  I don't think it should be rushed
           through for the next election.
        \_ Well, I object to changing it just so we can get a popular
           president. -republican
        \_ Aren't conservatives supposed to fear change and revere the wisdom
           of the founding fathers?  Or is that only when it's convenient?
           \_ I'm a liberal.  I was basically posting this to challenge other
              liberals who would be tempted to oppose this because of
              Arnold rather than based on what's right. -op
              \_ How about this: the position of President is so important that
                 there should be no question about the President's ultimate
                 national loyalty.
                 \_ Are you just trying to pose a possible reason or do you
                    actually believe that?
           \_ There is a difference between constitutional change via the
              amendment process and change via interpretation by the court
        \_ Naturalized for twenty years sounds almost reasonable. Perhaps
           25 or 30 would be better, though.
           \- i think age of naturalization is also a relevant factor.
              there is a difference between 20yr old immigrant who has
              live here for 45yrs and a 1 yr old immigrant who has lived
              here for 45 yrs. --immigrant
              \_ Good! I would specifically set the age of naturalization at
                 not later than 35 years and 4 months.
        \_ A related question, does anyone also object the removal of this
           restriction for senators? Why or why not? If a naturalized
           foreigner is allowed to run for president, I don't see why they
           shouldn't be allowed to run for a senate seats.
2004/11/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:34852 Activity:very high
11/11   The media's Barack Obama feve
        \_ thanks!  can you imagine if malkin was your mother?
           how is the suicide rate among 3 year olds?
        \_ Oh, look the Queen of self-hating Asians is back on the motd.
           I am curious, is the guy who keeps posting this some kind
           of white guy conservative with an Asian fetish?
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:34840 Activity:high
11/11   What are the conservative and liberal stands/views on immigration?
        \_ If you live in California within the past 10 years you should
           know. If you are a newcomer then basically do a search for prop
           187 on google. It's the reason why we're a democratic state instead
           of being centrist conservatists like we were in the past.
           \_ prop 187 sounds like a 'conservative' proposition
              \_ Yeah.  Conservatives voted for it and liberal judges
                 overturned it.
        \_ liberals tend to be in support of policies favorable to immigration.
           conservatives tend to be against.
           unless you're george bush trying to do anything to get re-elected and
           thus attempting to appeal to the immigrant vote.
           \_ Actually, the answer is much more complex than this. Liberals
              don't support policies favorable to immigration unilaterally.
              The Union faction of the left is steadfastly against immigration,
              especially the H1B type. Conservatives, especially those in the
              central valley and up north where the vinyards are in Ca tend
              to favor lax immigration enforcement until they need it to
              drive the workers off after planting season. Conservatives also
              like H1B visas. At the same time, I'm pretty sure right wing
              nuts will want to kick out the H1B visas after they've slave
              labored them long enough, and organized labor wants to organize
              them after they get into the country so they can have another
                \_ I am curious as to what your classic liberals "let 'em in,
                   give 'em driver's licenses" and your classic conservatives
                   "build a fence, shoot on sight" think about the fact that
                   without tons of illegal immigrants, CA's agricultural and
                   hospitality industries would collapse.  -ohn
                   hospitality industries would collapse.  -John
                   \_ You have absolutely zero, (0, nada, nothing) proof that
                      either will collapse if all the latino illigal immigrants
                      were to be deported. There are probably enough legal
                      latino immigrants and actual latino americans born here
                      to easily fill those posts.
                      \_ This is so racist. I guess it's ok to stereotype all
                         Latino's as only capable of holding a low-level job.
                   \_ This is the 'A day without a Mexican' view.  I am sort of
                      of two minds about illegal immigration.  On the one hand,
                      I favor much looser standards for letting people in, on
                      the other hand, I really dislike illegal immigration on
                      principle.  An economy is an organic thing.  Had there
                      been far fewer mexicans coming illegally, the CA
                      economy would have
                      developed in a different way, so it's a little misleading
                      to give hypothethical situations where all mexicans
                      suddenly disappear. -- ilyas
                      \_ I basically agree with ilyas.  I think we ought
                         to put the cap on illegal immigration, but we
                         also need to rework the INS so the people we want
                         in can get in easily.  It's is currently very
                         hard to be legal, and very easy to be illegal.
                         \_ "very easy to be illegal..." I urge you to
                            discuss this with someone who has chosen to
                            come here as an illegal.  "Easy" is not how I would
                            describe their lives.
                            \_ Then their lives were difficult for other
                               reasons.  I've known plenty of illegal
                               immigrants who were illigal simply because
                               the system is so fucking broken that there
                               was no other way to immigrate.  I knew one
                               guy who finished his masters degree with a
                               fake social security number(while working his
                               ass off as a cook), *then* got a real ssn,
                               called the school and social engineered them
                               into switching his ssn to the real one, took
                               the citizenship test, and is now gainfully
                               employed as a citizen.  He is in pretty much
                               every way a model immigrant, yet he was illegal
                               for something like 10 years because that's
                               just how fucked the system is.  Going to
                               grad school while working full time as a cook
                               is hard.  Being "illegal" is not, if you
                               speak fluent English and are not a fucking
            \_ what are the liberals view on illegal immigration and services?
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34665 Activity:very high
11/4    In other news:
        The French Government has announced it is raising it terror alert
        level.  They are rising it from "Run" to "Hide".  No word on if
        the higher levels of "Surender" or "Collaborate" are being
        This action is in response to a fire in the country's largest
        White Flag factory rendering it's military useless.
        \_ I dunno.  Giving medical care to Arafat looks an awful lot like
           an act of war to me.
           \_ Giving medical care is a cassus bellus? You are psychotic.
           \_ Giving medical care is a cassus belli? You are psychotic.
        \_ And at home, Republican-controlled government continues to use
           scare tactics and asinine strawman targets to divert the public
           attention from corporate welfare, disastrous war planning, and
           rampant destruction of the Constitution.
        \_ I used to make fun of the French as well with the WW2 surrender,
           then I read about how many French soldiers died in WW1.  It exceeds
           the # of American soldiers we have lost in ALL wars by quite a bit.
           \_ Yes I know, and the loss in WWII was more bad politics than
              cowardly soldiers.  Unfortunatly, if you want to make a
              coward joke, France is an easy choice; just like we make
              jokes about how dumb the Polish are. I have no idea how the
              dumb Polish sterotype got started.
                \_ Because the Poles working in the US during the major
                   waves of turn of the century immigration tended to have
                   shitty, dangerous, muscle-type jobs like hauling meat and
                   building railroads; the guys doing that sort of thing tend
                   to be bigger, ergo the big dumb Polack stereotype.  As for
                   moronic, the general tone in papers over here is "how could
                   more than 60 million Americans be this thick?"  -John
                   \-in sort of a mirror image, you have to go to india to
                     find large numbers of dumb indians. --psb
2004/10/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Uncategorized/Profanity] UID:34311 Activity:high
10/23   AMERICA!  FUCK YEAH!!!
        \_ YOU FUCKING DICK!
        \_ It's "TEAM AMERICA: FUCK YEAH!!!!"
           \_ No. http://music.ign.com/articles/558/558234p1.html
           \_ You obviously haven't watched the movie.
2004/10/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:34173 Activity:very high 50%like:34172
10/16   NC Woman Gang Raped by Seven Illegal Aliens
        \_ Americans for Legal Immigration?  What next, Americans for the
           Safe and Legal Relocation of the Jewish People to Community
           Camps?  Americans for Repatriation of African-Americans to Africa?
           I can't wait for these yahoos to finally get all of the illegal
           labor in California deported; the farmers are going to belly-up
           faster than a goldfish in your hot tub.
           \_ Your contention is that 11-12 million illegals all work
              in agriculture?  Why has the real cost of these products
              fallen?  The use of illegal labor distors market
              incentives and discourages technological innovation.
              Furthermore, the use of illegal labor suppreses wages
              of the poor, including the sacrosanct mascot minority
              groups, and pushes any costs of employment onto the
              tax payers.  Lastly, your argument seems to be you
              want a slave so you can have cheap strawberries
              and lawn service - is that it?
              \_ No, you silly fruit loop, my contention is that the same
                 people who complain, loudly, about illegal immigrants here
                 in the states tend to be the same hypocrites who benefit from
                 having the illegals here.  If you reformed agriculture in
                 CA such that you made people pay all of their employees
                 a decent minimum wage, two things would happen: 1) your
                 food prices would go up, and 2) there would no longer be an
                 incentive to hire the legions of illegal immigrants who are
                 currently earning $2 a day because they can't cry foul to
                 the cops without getting deported.
                 \_ No, I am sorry, I don't buy that argument.  Just because
                    I happen to want strawberries some day doesn't mean I
                    have to buy the entire system that brings strawberries to
                    my table.  I am not morally required to be an activist
                    with my wallet, though I certainly understand such
                    activists.  I find it interesting that the issue of
                    illegal immigration would lose a lot of its current
                    urgency with a smaller, more libertarian government
                    (Since the illegals wouldn't be competing for a piece
                    of taxation pie to which they don't add themselves,
                    like right now.  They would just come to work and
                    contribute to the economy).  -- ilyas
2004/10/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:34172 Activity:low 50%like:34173
10/16   Gang of Illegal Aliens Abducted by Aliens
        \_ why do you hate immigrants? are you a republican?
2004/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:33901 Activity:moderate
10/4    here's a pretty good reason to not re elect gwbush,
        his administration's efforts to outsource torture to other
        \_ Oh no! The horror! Humans hurting other humans! We should rewrite
           our genetic code to stamp it out and live off the land.
           \_ gave me a good chuckle
        \_ Or a good reason TO re-elect him, depending on your POV.
           \_ true.  too bad i have to share the country with psychos.
              \_ Republican: evil/stupid, Democrat: good/smart.
                 \_ WDYHA?
           \_ If you think it is a GOOD reason, you should ask yourself
              why we should outsource rather than doing it in house.
              Outsourcing is unamerican!
2004/9/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:33642 Activity:moderate
9/20    What are the applicable laws / rules of thumb governing your CA
        driver's license #?  I know you're supposed to exchange it in an
        accident, but what happens to it after that?  What's my exposure
        to, say, a bouncer swiping my ID at a bar (happens a lot in LA)?
        \_ You have the right to not give them your ID at a bar.
           The bar has the right to not let you in without ID.
           \_ that's not helpful.
              \_ you also have the right to insult the previous poster's
                 mom and make an obtuse reference to illegal immigration.
                \ you have the right to burn American flags
2004/9/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:33430 Activity:nil
9/9     Survey: Millions in LA County struggling with literacy
        (Mexifornia here we come!!!)
        \_ Or you can look at it the other way, millions of Californians
           are illiterate in Spanish, which was the original official
           language. I mean, there's a reason why it's called "San Jose"
           and not St. Joe's.
           \_ why should Californians care much about the language that WAS
              the official language nearly two centuries ago?
2004/9/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33356 Activity:nil
9/4     A sagging economy, endless violence in Iraq, record high oil prices,
                                                     \- not "record high" [yet]
                                                        oil prices were higher
                                                        in early 80s. --psb
        a bad employment picture, an uncertain future, and everybody in the
        world hates us, yet the Democrats are now BEHIND in the polls? WTF?
        What the hell happened? How can the Dems lose both in 2000 and now
        it looks like 2004? Are you guys cursed?
        \_ Perhaps a belief that, as bad as things are, the Democrats
           would have made an even greater mess, and better days are ahead.
        \_ 3% GDP growth and 5.4 % unemployment is a sagging economy?Contrast
           that with Carter's double digit inflation, interest rates, and
           unemployment.  Oil prices will be ~30-35$ per barrel by November.
           Also, maybe this has something to do with it:
           Boy who begged for water was bayoneted
2004/8/21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:33056 Activity:nil
8/20    Wackenhut Detention Center:
        \_ I'm not going to read your links because I already know too
           much about wackenhut, and I'll be pissed off all day if I read
           about them now.  Those cocksuckers are actually doing the security
           at the statue of liberty ferry now.  Oh, the irony.
2004/7/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32532 Activity:nil
7/28    Bush breathes air he tries to poison.  See all the pics:
        \_ what about illegal immigration pollutes delta/sacramento
           river and destroys levees w/ unlawful aliens?
           \_ RACIST!  Why do you hate America?  I'll bet you don't RIDE
              BIKE! or USE LINUX! either!
2004/7/27 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:32497 Activity:insanely high
7/26    And here's why Kerry isn't polling up 15 and isn't going to win.
        Clinton was right, "it's the economy, stupid",
        "Consumer confidence hits two-year high"
        \_ Well, the Dems have been hammering Bush on the economy for at least
           the last year, cherry-picking stats to talk down the economy even as
           it's been recovering.  Now that the economy is in robust recovery,
           they've lost that point and look a bit silly.  On top of that they
           said that Bush's tax plan would ruin our economy.  Tax receipts in
           June were the highest for the month of June since 2000, so not only
           is the economy rolling, but the federal budget is doing well too.
           \_ ha we are like 30 trillion in debt up to our assholes, so doomed
              \_ Thanks to FDR, LBJ, and leftists.  [formatd on all this]
                \_ i am reasonably sure this country did not have huge
                   trade and budget deficits until the early 80s,
                   after someone ramped up spending while simultaneously
                   slashing government revenues.  are you still pissed
                   about that new deal thing?
                 \_ Whoa.  So how long have you and reality been divorced?
                    \_ 30 trillion?  I'd love to see the URL for _that_!
                       \_ Here's a guy who says we are 52 Trillion in debt,
                          counting unfunded pension and Social Security
                          The Economist says that it is only $10.5 B though.
                          You can come up with almost any number for a
                          liability 75 years from now though.
                          \_ 10.5 B or 10.5 T ?
              \_ Learn to indent.  Yes, the fed. gov't needs to cut spending.
                 But the point is that tax receipts are now higher than in 2000
                 (well, we'll see if we're in a trend).  That puts us in a
                 great position to pay down some debt.  Unless of course Kerry
                 gets his way and (1) gets universal health care and (2)
                 relaxes restrictions on the immigration of people with AIDS.
                 \_ Both fears are bogus.  If we established universal
                    healthcare (which Kerry has not even proposed) we could
                    fund it with all the money employers are now spending on
                    for-profit HMOs.  Listing restrictions on immigration of
                    AIDS patients would not change immingration restrictions in
                    general.  We would not be flooded with diseased poor
                    Africans because we are not flooded with poor Africans
                    right now.
                    \_ HMO money goes from corps to HMOs to give health care
                       to employees.  Universal HC as you describe it would
                       take money from corps to the government to give HC
                       to everyone.  That guarantees fewer dollars per person
                       and therefore lesser health care.  No thanks.
                       \_ No, not really. See Canada vs. US health care
                          spending. Single payer appears to be a more
                          efficient way of allocating resources. You can
                          get better overall health care with fewer dollars
                          spent. That is what I believe, anyway.
                       \_ Oh, I see.  You've got yours so screw everybody else.
                          \_ So you're in favor of helping those in need at
                             the expense of others?  Ok, how about this: would
                             you be willing to lower your GPA from 4.0 to 3.0
                             so 3 other people can raise theirs from 1.7 to 2.0
                             and not get kicked out of school?  Didn't think
                             so.  You got yours and screw everyone else.
                             \_ yes, I am for providing help to students
                                to help them learn better, and hence improve
                                their GPA.
                                \_ Great.  What classes will you be taking
                                   next semester?  (Assuming you normally
                                   would pull up the curve, of course.)
                          \_ This is bankrupting Europe and it would
                             bankrupt us. Do you want to provide free
                             health care for all of Mexico?
                             \_ It is not bankrupting Europe. Who told you
                                such nonesense. Canada is doing better than
                                ever and they have single payer healthcare.
                                \_ I wonder how many people who waxes
                                   rhapsodic about the Canadian healthcare
                                   system ever had to rely on it.  My
                                   grandfather was covered under the Canadian
                                   system, and he was given the choice of
                                   either wasting away slowly and painfully
                                   while waiting > 1 year for back surgery or
                                   paying his own way in the US.
                             \_ Oh, trolling for anti-immigrant sentiment now
                                \_ No. It is the immigrants that are
                                   bankrupting Europe and they will also
                                   bankrupt the US if we adopt the same
                                   \_ Uhm, they're not immigrants until they've
                                      left their country of origin, dumbass.
                                      \_ Huh?
                                   \_ really?  so how come we are still the
                                      most powerful country in the world
                                      after these centuries of immigration?
                                      \_ Because we don't provide free
                                         universal health care and other
                                         socialistic perks. Immigration is
                                         great. Giving money away to
                                         anyone who wants some is not.
                                \_ No. Criticizing ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is not
                                   anti-immigrant sentiment.  When will you
                                   knee-jerk lefties learn that?
                             \_ According to the Economist,  immigrants are
                                a net win for Spain because they're supporting
                                the pension system which is strained because
                                Spainiards of the past few decades decided to
                                have fewer children.
                                \_ Net win? There are other variables than
                                   budget numbers. This idea of needing to
                                   bring in a bunch of people to support the
                                   welfare apparatus is complete bullshit. If
                                   they structured the system properly, instead
                                   of setting up a ridiculous Ponzi scheme,
                                   then they would have a long term solution.
                                \_ These incoming immigrants are having
                                   more children of their own. Who will
                                   support them?
                    \_ I'm pretty sure I've heard John Kerry say that everyone
                       should be covered by the same insurance that members of
                       congress have.
                \_ how does universal health care in europe and other countries
                   work from the doctor's point of view. do they have to be
                   part of the system?  can they set their own rates?
                   \_ They do not have to be and many are not. You pay
                      cash. Doctor's salaries are low overall and there is
                      a shortage of doctors. Hospitals import immigrant
                      doctors from, say, Russia and pay them low wages.
                      They accept it because otherwise they get sent back.
        \_ Well, there really are two economise in America today. The rich
           are doing very well, fueld by tax cuts, but middle income and
           lower middle class sorts are seeing lower real wages and actual
           overall tax increases, since the states have raised taxes so much.
           So I am not so sure that the Republican line is going to play
           too well with the Wal-Mart voter. Also, the leading indicators
           are looking pretty bad according to these guys:
           \_ Today the party announced that the chocorat is being increased to
              25 grams.
        \_ That a good economy benefits the incumbent is an accepted fact,
           but I think Bush has bigger problems.  In fact, I see the
           population throwing out Bush as it stands up on its feet after 9/11.
           \_ I see the prolitariat throwing off the shackles of
              capitalism after they realize the evils of tax cuts.
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:32225 Activity:high 71%like:32223
7/11    Illegal Aliens are Boosting for Billions, 60 Minutes
        \_ It's Romanian gangs in Europe--they also do a lot of organized
           burglary, ramming (steal a car, ram a jewelery shop window),
           and stealing ATMs (attach to the back of a pickup truck, rip it
           from the walls.  -John
           \_ Romanian or Romany?
                \_ Romanian.  The Roma mainly specialize in pickpocketing.
        \_ Doing the jobs Americans won't do...
           \_ So instead of paying a fair wage you build your economy on the
              under paid backs of illegal labor?  Oh, that's so liberal
              minded of you.  Thanks for being such the humanitarian.  Maybe
              we can export our slave labor policy to other nations in an
              effort to spread our form of human rights?
              \_ Bub, if you're gonna bitch, you should read the link first.
        \_ Americans will do any job if the price is right.
           \_ except for manually working a farm. it has that stigma, y'all
              \_ Are you kidding?  Having sex with people for money has a
                 stigma, but farming?  Do you just mean the stereotype that
                 farmers are 'dumb'?  Dude, I d farm if the salary was good.
                 It's much better than rotting in a cubicle.  -- ilyas
              \_ No, they'd do that too if the work-reward ratio and conditions
                 were improved. There is a stigma, but there's also a sort of
                 romanticism about agriculture that I think would appeal to
                 some people if there was any dignity to the job.
                 \_ Winery employees have no problem working alongside the
                    Latino laborers. I've done it myself at harvest. Lots
                    of people like to garden, which is basically the same
                    thing. If the salary was higher more people would do it.
                    I'll tend sheep for $100K/year.
                    \_ Alot of americans would do it for a third of that.
                       \_ As long as we deny immigrants the chance to organize,
                          a lot of people in America will end up doing it for
                          1/20th of that.
2004/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:32212 Activity:high
7/10    How Multiculturalism Took Over America
        \_ How about the part where whitey took over America? And how
           everytime whitey feels threatened, they enact a law to
           "protect" their culture, though, this isn't really the
           original American culture....just whitey culture.
                \_ KILL WHITEY!
           \_ Enact a law?  Such as when the Republicans crushed the
              Democrats and brought about a victory for civil rights in
              this country?
              \_ Wow, when did this happen?  I was too busy watching the Repubs
                 getting coopted by the far right loonies and shredding my
                 civil liberties to notice.
                 \_ I think he's confusing "Democrats" with "Confederacy."
                    \_ Considering the South was solidly democrat until the
                       1980's I don't think you know what you are talking
                       \_ Ronald Reagan brought about a victory for civil
                          rights?  How?  By showing that even an actor
                          with Alzheimer's can become president?
                          \_ Since you are historically ignorant why do
                             you persist with this polemic?  Your time
                             would be better spent reading a history book.
        \_ sincere question to OP: where did you grow up (state/region)?
           \_ seattle, south florida, virginia (DC), north carolina.
              \_ as a native northern californian i found the viewpoint
                 of the article to be laughably sheltered.  his fear
                 of "the new pioneers" is telling of his desire to
                 freeze progress now that "his" culture has reached
                 its peak.  i think he assigns too much malice to those
                 of us who appreciate the mixing of cultures taht is
                 intrinisic to the modern economy. (i asked about origins
                 because i am increasingly aware that i understand
                 the pacific rim mindset more than some of my u.s.
                 the pacific rim mindset more than [i do]  some of my u.s.
                 \_  Of course you are smarter and more perspicacious than
                     every else, especially the crude masses who live
                     outside of urban areas like SF, Ny, Hollywood, and
                     Boston.  That said, please
                     identify the virtues that have arisen
                     from multiculturalism in the past 2 decades.
                     Ethnic cuisine doesn't count.
                     \_ it's not so much that I think it has virtues
                        as I think it is the truth. people mingle;
                        people mix; they do not assimilate. the slow
                        pace of some backwoods places gives the false
                        impression that culture is static.  the article
                        ignores how the US changes after EVERY batch
                        immigration.  the virtues invclude not
                        taking an isolationist's stance with our heads
                        in the sand and asses in the air.

                        let me add that i think the core principle of
                        our government, namely federation, naturally
                        extends to multi-culturalism.  there is no "we"
                        that owns the civic stage with any uniform
                        cultural identity.  the wonderful future I
                        hope for is when all culturual identities are
                        equally as impotent and silly and we can get
                        on to individual merit again.
2004/7/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:31158 Activity:insanely high
7/4     Happy 4th! In other news, the Dutch are the tallest ppl in the
        world, and have overtaken the americans big time. Interesting
        reasons why like uneven distribution of wealth, lack of health
        care, and the richest country in the world not investing enough
        in it's children: http://tinyurl.com/yrjma
        \_ is this the etymology of "flying Dutchman"?
        \_ two contradictory facts in the article: "rich people are taller"
           and "Bruintjes is a Dutch, 7'4", and works as a security
           \_ "rich" in a global context--his kids have access to good
              healthcare, well thought-out nutrition, and a not too shabby
              public education (his idiotic taxes notwithstanding.)  -John
        \_ No, because we take in more people from poor countries who came
           here underfed.  If you only checked height and other factors
           starting with 3rd generation citizens the numbers would be
           remarkably different.  How many immigrants do the Dutch take in
           every year?
           \_ You are wrong. Read The Economist on the same subject.
              \_ I'm wrong?  Ok, so the US isn't taking in poor people from
                 all over?  Perhaps you could elaborate instead of making a
                 blanket accusation of wrongness with a vague reference to
                 TE as your only backing?
                 \_ Yep, you're wrong. And you don't read The Economist,
                    or you wouldn't be. And no, I won't tell you my password.
                    But the study authors already accounted for the influx
                    of immigrants.
           \_ Holland takes in tons of immigrants, in fact the whole country
              is getting pretty full since it is so tiny.  I don't know
              what the relative rates are compared to the USA.
              \_ Relative percentages count when you're doing country vs.
                 country comparisons.  Comparing Holland to the US on just
                 about anything is just plain silly but if you're going to
                 do so at least get the right numbers.
        \_ Obviously this is Bush and Reagan's fault.
           \_ Vote for Balkenende, he's TALLER.
           \_ BushCo!!!!  EEEEVVVVVIIIILLLL and shorter than the average
2004/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:31089 Activity:high
6/30    Nepal buddhist put in solitary confinement for 24/hr * 3 month for
        unknowingly videotaping outside a FBI building.
        And recently a NYT photographer was prevented form taking picture
        of Times-Warner building.  Will it now get someone in trouble if he
        takes pictures on the street with major landmark or government
        building in the line of sight?  It doesn't matter if he will
        eventually get out.
        \_ Four more years!  Leader Bush is teh greatest!
           \_ And this will change under kerry because..?
        \_ I don't want Iranian nationals taking pictures of landmarks in my
           country. -allenp
           \_ Why not? --iranian national.
           \_ While we're rattling sabers with each other. -allenp
              \_ Better just ban all tourists from taking any pictures. You
                 never know who might be our enemy tomorrow.  Thank goodness
                 Eastasia is our ally.
                 \_ w00t!
                 \_ Now, _that_ was a funny edit. Nice.
        \_ "Ignorance of the law is no excuse, for it can always be
           faked."  That said, the real problem here is the unbelieveable
           bueracuracy that infests our government.  Look at the INS.
           Just ridiculous.
        \_ He was on an expired visa.  That's life.  Maybe he can tell
           his friends to obey our immigration laws and then there's no
           problem.  We should have forced him to refund US taxpayers
           the cost of jail and trial before release.  I'm sure FBI
           agents have more important concerns than this twit.
           \_ Not only that.  He was *working* with an expired *tourist* visa.
              \_ So deport him.  If you want him punished, work out a treaty
                 the law, and staying of a tourist visa is too.
                 with Nepal where they punish their citizens for violating
                 your immigration laws.
                 \_ That's what the FBI agent in charge was trying to do,
                    and he eventually got him out.
           \_ Are you a tax lawyer? Then you've almost certainly committed
              tax fraud and mail fraud.  When they come to lock you up, please
              remember what you've written today.
              \_ Bad analogy.  This guy knew he was breaking immigration
                 law wide open.  You don't have to be an immigration
                 lawyer to know that working on a tourist visa is against
                 the law, and staying of a tourist visa is too.
                 \_ straw man.  The penalty for working on an expired visa
                    is deportation, not 3 months of jail.  -tom
                    \_ Wrong-o, Tom-o. Or at least you're responding to
                       the wrong question.  I didn't say anything about
                       the punishment being just.  I just pointed out
                       that this fellows analogy was wrong.  That's not a
                       straw man.
                       \_ 'Wrong-o, Tom-o'?  What the fuck is wrong with you?
                          \_ I get too much fun out of life.
                 \_ No analogy being made here. If you're not a tax lawyer,
                    you have almost certainly violated some minor part of the
                    byzantine US tax codes. If you show no sympathy for a man
                    who was put in solitary confinement for 3 months for
                    working on an expired visa, expect no sympathy when the
                    powers that be arrest and detain you on the pretext of
                    tax and mail fraud.
                    \_ "No analogy?" Your whole argument us based on a bad
                       analogy, That purposely breaking a well known low
                       in 2 different ways is somehow analgus to breaking
                       an extrememly obscure law unintentionally.
        \_ Here is the correct article non PC title:  Greedy Nepalese
           Flaunts US Laws and Distracts FBI from Pursuing Terrorists.
           He is responsible for his decision to
           break our laws when we are under terrorist attack.
           He is lucky to have gotten off as easy as he did.
           BTW this is classic NYTimes bias.
           \_ Wait, so its only an objective headline if its worded like a
              news report in Starship Troopers?
              \_ Motd Poster is flaming asshole and rabid propagandist!
                 Click here to learn more!
              \_ Do you want to see more?
           \_ I think, what you are saying is, he was lucky because:
              (1) He was kept in solitary, he wasn't raped, he was only
              (2) It was only three months, could have been a year+
              (3) He could be in Guantanamo, he was in Brooklyn
              (4) He eventually got to talk to a lawyer
              (5) He had a senior FBI agent helping him
              (6) He got a free ticket back to Nepal, didn't have to pay
                  any fines, and did manage to send $37K back to his family
              (7) He broke important laws during a very sensitive time,
                  he should accept the consequences
                  \_ If rape is inevitable, sit back and enjoy it!
2004/5/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30413 Activity:insanely high
5/25    Fabricating a Statistic in the Immigration Debate
        questionable ethics by LATimes
        \_ Don't hide that it's a freeper link and we won't delete it.
           \_ 2 wrongs don't make a right.
              \_ insert hilarious racist Asian joke here
                 \_ RAPIST!
                    \_ RACIST!
           \_ Why do you care that it's from freerepublic?  It's an excerpt for
              an LA Times article, which can be found here:
              (registration required)
                        \_ actually there are responses from various parties
                           not on LA's site.  Thats the point!
              \_ I care because Freeper doesn't always post the entire article,
                 and anything they do post is accompanied by pages of debate
                 that I don't care to read.
                 \_ ^debate^invective
                 \_ I hate the spewage at the freerepublic more than you and
                    wish the freeperguy would post the original links without
                    the freeper crap in it.  there was a time (a looong time
                    ago) that (very briefly) the free republic was a decent
                    conservative site but the spewing morons quickly took over
                    and all thinking people left.  the morons at the freerep
                    make the rest of us look bad.  i've managed to start any
                    number of good conversations and debates here posting
                    original links without linking through some crap site like
                    the freerepublic.   --real conservative
        \_ why do you hate immigrants?
           \_ why do you hate white people?
2004/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30292 Activity:insanely high
5/19    Mass Immigration Cost American Taxpayers $69 Billion Net
        and 2 Million Jobs in 1997
        \_ Oh bugger off.
                \_ factual refutation?
                   \_ What's the point?  You wouldn't listen anyway.  Its
                      the motd.  "Bugger off" gets us right to the point.  Oh
                      yeah, bugger off once agaim, no one wants to listen to
                      your axe grinding for the nth time.
        \_ They're coming from the future:
        \_ Why do you hate immigrants?
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30170 Activity:nil
5/11    Subsidizing Illegal Immigration: Illegals get in-state tuition to
         UC & Cal State (Tom McClintock)
        \_ The claim is ridiculous.  I was a legal immigrant and I had to
           pay full tuition until I got a Green card.  And BTW, it was a
           free republic link.  Why bother to hide it?
                \_ its not a claim it is a law.  State sen. McClintock is
                   lying?  I simply cut and past the link from my broswer.
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30077 Activity:nil
5/6     Cool, I got the censors to delete the stupid illegal immigrant thread!
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:12977 Activity:low
4/1     I have heard it stated that our (the US's) system of
        Plurality/Majority elections discourage people from voting.  Now,
        I can see the reasoning here (I hate both presidential canidates)
        but I was curious if this claim can be backed up with numbers.
        Possiably comparing places of similar culture and
        circumstance that use the diffrent types of voting.
        \_ I'd say that's probably a specious opinion that was stated
           without much evidence to support it.  There's a lot of other,
           move provable reasons for the decline in voter interest in
           the US.  Also rarely mentioned, but a factor in decreased voter
           registration over the past 30 years has been an increase in
           immigrant, non-citizen population relative to citizens.
           I'm not trying to race-bait here, and its not nearly the only
           factor, but its often ignored when people decry decreasing voter
           \_ Interesting.  Actually, that raises another question.  Why
              do people think that immigration has anything to do with
              race?  I've met immigrants of all manner of races, even...
              *gasp* white.
              \_ *I* don't think it has anything to do with race, of course.
                 I was trying to head off the usual motd flame war.  Not that
                 it will help.
           \_ So you're saying the ratio of immigrant to citizen is too many?
              \_ I didn't say that.  You're putting words in my mouth.  I was
                 just citing it as a partial reason for decreasing voter
                 registration.  In fact, if you take this into account, voter
                 registration amongst _those eligible to register_ hasn't
                 declined significantly since the 1970s.  Of course, it declined
                 markedly from, say, the 40s to the 70s in real terms.  I have
                 no problem with immigration.  Its more of an argument for
                 urging people to become citizens and participate in the process
                 than anything else.
        \_ Countries with proportional-representation-based voting systems
           have higher voter turn-out than countries that use first past the
           post (like the US).
           More info: http://www.fairvote.org/turnout/index.html
        \_ People don't vote because they think their vote doesn't matter.  It
           really is just that simple.
2004/3/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:12693 Activity:nil
3/15    The Sinking Lifeboat: Uncontrolled Immigration and the
        U.S. Healthcare System
        \_ racist.  no need to read link. freeper = racist.
           \_ you are a left wing liberal commie traitor sodomist whatever
2004/3/3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:12506 Activity:nil
3/3     Eighteen-year-old Tricia Taylor of Detroit was in
        court in December 2002 to hear the plea of the
        illegal alien who caused her to lose both legs above the knees.
        \_ Looks like an anti-immigrant web site disguising itself as anti-
           illegal-immigrant.  Check out the home page.
           \_ I don't think the idiot that keeps posting this crap can tell
              tell the difference.  He's got to be autistic or something.
2004/2/27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12430 Activity:kinda low
2/27    Nice folks over in Saudi Arabia.  Here's a bit about their recently
        relaxed visa & immigration policy:
        \_ This is news?
        \_ Uhm, yea, this has been the case in many countries in the region
           for decades (with restrictions on all of (1) Jew, (2), Israeli
           passport, and (3) Passport with an Israeli stamp).
2004/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12427 Activity:low
2/26    Living man a fugitive suspect in sucessful suicide bombing attack.
        Huh what?
        "In a report earlier this month, Agence France-Presse said a Taliban
        source had identified Abdullah Khadr as the attacker who on Jan. 27
        jumped on Murphy's jeep and blew himself up. He is the 22-year-old son
        of Ahmed Said Khadr."
        \_ It's on cbc.ca. Go post there if you care.
           \_ Are you deranged?
2004/2/26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:12411 Activity:nil
2/24    General question for anti-gov't-program types: Do you think it's ok
        to just abandon those that are unable to properly care for themselves?
        For example: retards, invalids, elderly, children of incompetents,
        incompetents, etc.? How would you propose dealing with them?
        \_ I'm one of the most conservative people on the motd.  I propose that
           society takes care of those who truly can not take care of
           themselves.  Our society moves too fast, is too dispersed and no
           longer fit to deal with charity cases with charity.  However, I do
           not believe "the elderly" belong on your list of those unable to
           care for themselves.  There is nothing about simply being 'elderly'
           that puts a person in the same category as the mentally disabled or
           those truly physically unable to care for themselves.  They fall
           into the welfare-state socialism-is-a-failure i-hate-big-government-
           waste category.  Social security was never intended to be the sole
           support for old people.  It is/was a socialist policy designed to
           supplement an old person's other income.  That "other income" is
           the old person's responsibility.  They had an entire lifetime to get
           their act together.  I don't feel responsible for people being
           wasteful or stupid with their lives.  I would make ilyas pay a tiny
           amount of his income (less than 1%) to support the truly needy but
           wouldn't take a penny from him for "the elderly".
           \_ Well I put them there more as "incompetents". Or people who for
              whatever reason aren't smart enough or are unfortunate enough so
              wind up being economically unviable. We don't have a full-
              unemployment economy like Kucinich wants. So bottom line, do you
              just let them wander around homeless, spreading disease, and die?
              Who decides whether someone "truly can not take care of
              themselves"? That could be faked right? Or self-induced... I've
              been around mentally ill people. Sometimes they could sort of
              function, but not enough to compete. Or they might be stuck with
              the mind of a 10 year old, which is enough to appear coherent but
              not enough to really survive. If nothing else they could put
              themselves in jail. Isn't it perverse? At least with socialism,
              people who have some normal human ambition will strive to achieve
              while the rest are provided some simple support. (I'd also favor
              a more limited immigration policy. And I don't believe in giving
           \_ You are a conservative, but when the rubber hits the road you are
              a pragmatic first, a conservative second.  The problem is, I can
              always make a case that more people need to be included in the
              entitlement you are creating (what about old people who
              immigrated from North Korea, who had no chance to improve their
              lot, etc. etc.)  The real issue here is whether property rights
              trump 'right to not die.'  I believe so (I also believe there is
              no such right as 'right to not die').  Once you are willing to
              redistribute money from specific people to other specific people
              (as opposed to servicing certain kinds of 'global goods') using
              force, it's all a matter of sliding down a gentle slope from your
              position to orthodox socialism. -- ilyas
        \_ I propose to rely on charity and culture of compassion (or if you are
           more cynical, peer pressure of compassion), rather than on forcing
           people to be compassionate.  If confronted with a scenario where I
           have to choose between letting someone die and forcing someone to
           take care of them, I would choose the former.  -- ilyas
        \_ in WW2 Japan, the old people were deemed
           useless because they took away precious resources (rice, time,
           etc) that could otherwised be used for expanding their
           empire. So, they killed many of them for the greater good.
                \_ nippon bansai!!! nippon ichiban!!!!
        \_ There is a difference between a safety net and socialized
           retirement / medical care.  Do you want to inculcate
           government dependency (as if we haven't already)?
           \_ so... if there's a safety net then how do you prevent people
              from treating it the same as socialized blah? once most of these
              people fall in they probably can't get out anyway.
              \_ fuck em.  let em die.
2004/2/25 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:12394 Activity:kinda low
2/24    Canadian military going bankrupt.  I guess that's ok when you're
        living under the US military umbrella.  It's not like anyone is
        going to invade but does serve to further highlight their puppet
        \_ If they're a "puppet," how come they got into a pissing match
           with the US over Iraq?
           \_ Kids sometimes do this to their parents, but there is no
              doubt who is boss.
       \_ Oddly enough I feel no one is going to invade the US either, and
          yet they have huge military expenditures.
          \_ hahahahah!
          \_ That's because you're an idiot.
          \_ The illegals already have and still continue to do so.
             \_ That's right, whitey.  You need help loading your luggage
                on the next boat for Europe?
                \_ Why do people equate anti-illegal with racism?
                   \_ Because anti-illegal apologists tend to be masking
                      deeper anti-immigrant agendae.
                      \_ Why does anti-immigrant have to be racist? Regardless
                         of race I don't see why anyone should be pro-immigrant
                         right now. It doesn't help those who are already here.
                         There is no manpower shortage in America.
                         \_ They don't really think you're racist.  It's just
                            easy to toss around hot button words like that
                            instead of debating these sorts of very serious
                            topics.  Screaming, "RACIST!" is easy.  Doing
                            research and coming up with solid reasons for open
                            boarders and counters to the closed boarder people
                            is much harder.  Check this out: RACIST!  See?
                            that was easy.
        \_ Haiti right now is interesting example of what happens when you
           get rid of your military (they did it to remove the Coup threat).
           So now thy have a handful of ex-military rebels they are trying
           to fight with basically police.
                \_ Cool, so we should keep the military to (a) avoid having
                   ex-military people run amuck and overthrow the government,
                   (b) provide domestic security.  -John
                        \_ of course, you can't have ex-Military
                           without a military
                           \_ does it bother any of you idiots that the
                              premise of this whole debate is that Canada
                              is getting rid of its military, which just
                              isn't true?  They're having budget problems
                              and closing a couple of bases, and the op
                              turned that into a clever litttle troll.
                              that's all.
                              \_ OP 1, !OP 0.
                              \_ Bzzzt!  I never said Canada was getting rid of
                                 their military.  I said exactly what I said,
                                 nothing more and nothing less.  If you choose
                                 to make it into something else that's your
                                 business but not my words or meaning.  --OP
2004/2/12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:12223 Activity:very high 59%like:12209
2/11    Sierra Club anti-immigrant?
        \_ If an environmental .org is serious about the environment then yes
           it makes sense to be anti-immigrant.  In fact it makes sense to be
           anti-human.  The SC is not a liberal .org, they're an environmental
           group.  Increasing population density in the U.S. will not in any
           way improve the environment here or elsewhere and is going to
           destroy a whole lot of it here and elsewhere.  Fewer people will
           directly lead to a cleaner/safer environment for all planets and
           \_ aren't environmentalists typically liberals?
              \_ what is going on inside the SC right now is a fight between
                 true environmentalists who don't have a broader focus and
                 liberals for whom the environment is only one agenda item on
                 the list worth sacrificing for their greater liberal agenda.
                 I'm with the pure environmentalist crowd as we already have
                 enough generic liberals but no other serious orgs looking out
                 for the environment.
                 \_ I couldn't agree more.  It's important for any organization
                    like that to stay focused.  I'm going to take a wild guess
                    here and say I'll bet less than a quarter of any dollar
                    given to these jokers gets to any kind of conservation
                    project.  Now Bat Conservation International on the other
                    hand is, IMHO, a model of how things *should* be done.
                    I've been a contributor to and member of BCI for over 10
                    years, and I can't remember a single time when they seemed
                    politically motivated in anything beyond the very narrow
                    scope of their stated mission.
              \_ Grow up.
              \_ typically yes.  But it is not a prereq.  Personally I
                 consider myself a conservative libertarian environmentalist,
                 but there are people who know me who would argue with each
                 of those labels.
                 \_ Then at the very least you have a tension between human
                    rights, which is the libertarian pet peeve and
                    'environmental stuff', for which a principled resolution
                    should exist.  Most libertarians would say 'screw the
                    endangered wetland weed, humans are more important.'
                    Conservative libertarian makes more sense --
                    libertarian == rights, conservative == enforcement.
                    As far as the Sierra Club story, I heard they made some
                    sort of 'mutual coprosperity pact' with the Hispanic
                    Caucus (which makes them both unprincipled in my book).
                      -- ilyas
                 of those labels.
        \_ Every environmental issue is caused by human population growth.
2004/1/12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:11756 Activity:high
1/11    In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding
        warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500)
        target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive
        felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
        \_ Hmm... which is more likely?
           A) Illegal aliens commit 95% of murders
           B) Illegal aliens are much more likely to run away or hide.
              \_ While I agree with you, please don't edit my response.
                 \_ I'm sorry.  Let me fix that:
           \_ I think you may have intended to append "...if suspected,
           \_ I think may have intended to append "...if suspected,
              regardless of actual guilt" to option B.
           \_ Of course they're more likely to run away or hide.  It's easier
              for them to commit crimes and disappear.  This is good how?
              \_ Well, if they could get drivers licenses, health care, submit
                 W-2s and all the miscellany that most people have, it would be
                 \_ Those "most people" are citizens, son.  This is a country
                    and a nation, not a free travel zone opened to the world.
                    Onlt the US and third world nations have such porous
                    borders.  The third world has an excuse.
                 a lot easier to track them down.
                 \_ Or we could just enforce our existing immigration laws.
                    \_ But it's impossible to seal the borders totally.  People
                       \_ Just because it is hard or not economically feasible
                          to do something at 100% is not in any way a good
                          reason to not put in the 99% effort.  For example,
                          it is *extremely* expensive to run a 100% uptime
                          network of servers but you can run a 99.999% uptime
                          system for something most mid- and some small-sized
                          companies can afford.  The only 100% system I've
                          ever seen was in a *very* high end government lab
                          and cost the tax payers hundreds of millions to
                          build and maintain.
                          \_ You must be using some technical definition of '100%'
                             I am not familiar with.  Nothing can be fully reliable,
                             as you well know, regardless of how much money you
                             spend on it.
                       will get in, so we might as well know they exist.
                        \_ And what happens when they obtain 5 or 6 pieces
                           of indentification, like they do now?
                       \_ And as soon as we know they exist, we deport them.
                          Legal immigration rates should probably be increased,
                          but illegal immigration should not be tolerated.
                          \_ See, this is why I can't understand the Right's
                             opposition to driver's licences for illegal
                             aliens: once they're registered, you'll know
                             right away where they are and whether you can
                             deport them. The beauty of the system is that
                             \_ "and whether you can deport them": if they're
                                here illegally they can be deported.
                             the aliens themselves will come to you!
                             \_ I think the idea is that illegals can get a
                                drivers license and not be deported just based
                                on that.  They can be deported if found out by
                                other means though.  The upside for the state
                                is that illegals are at least subject to the
                                \_ Why would an illegal bother?  They're
                                   getting along just fine right now without
                                   being 'on the books'.  I wonder how many of
                                   you actually know any illegals and I don't
                                   mean the anonymous faces that you see doing
                                   gardening or construction.
                                   \_ 1) Under the mistaken impression that
                                      they won't be deported the next time
                                      they're pulled over, and 2) thanks for
                                      the non-sequitur.
        \_ http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/2003/112103hoodlums.html
                                requirements of licensing and insurance.
        \_ Why do we need immigration at all any more?  Are we really running
           low on people?  -ax
           \_ We're low on people who will do crappy jobs for minimum wage.
              Also, it's a fairness issue, unless your parents are both Native
              \_ Fairness?  Please explain.  I was going to go off on you but
                 maybe you're not saying wha t think you're saying so I'll
                 reserve judgement for now.
              \_ End welfare and people will work.
                 \_ Those damn 5 year olds on AFDC, why won't they get a job!
                    \_ That coal isn't going to mine itself, you know!
                    \_ Why should the parents be allowed to have 10 children
                       while on welfare?
                       \_ What are the alrernatives?  Deny welfare to a woman
                          with 10 children and probably no marketable skills,
                          forced abortion, forced sterilization.  None of these
                          seem reasonable.
                          \_ You seem oblivious to how government handouts
                             work.  When you give people free money or
                             healthcare the take all they can and will
                             act in a way to maximize their return.
                             \_ I'm not at all oblivious.  I know all about
                                incentives and market forces.  I'm a former
                                Libertarian.  I'm saying you can't pull the
                                rug out from under people without causing big
                                \_ Libertarian turned statist?  Admit it you
                                   want someone to take care of you.  You
                                   want cradle to grave protection by some
                                   faceless bureaucrat.
                                   You don't have the ability to make your
                                   own decisions and live with the
           \_ And therein lies the paradox:  California agribusiness is built
              on the labor of people who are criminally underpaid; they
              continue to be criminally underpaid because they have no legal
              status and will be deported if they complain or try to organize,
              but the institution of employing them remains because if all
              illegal aliens were deported, agribusiness would be forced to
              pay minimum wage to American workers and that would bankrupt
              California agribusiness.  The parallels between the current
              labor situation in California and the pre-Civil War agricultural
              economy of the South are striking.
                \_ The cost breakdown in agriculture is ~ 10% labor.
                   \_ The margins are tiny though.
                   \_ And what would that be if ag was paying $6.75 per hour?
                          but illegal immigration should not be tolerated.
2004/1/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:11704 Activity:insanely high
1/7     Court: N.C. must broaden its Medicaid coverage for illegal
        \_ It only makes sense.  Legislation through the courts is the only
           way the minority party can push their agenda.  It's been this way
           for years.
           \_ If you agree with what the court is doing, its fair and
              reasonable.  If you disagree, its "legislative activism."
              There is no political party I know if thats actually
              consistent about this, other than maybe the libertarians,
              and they have virtually nobody in office that I recall.
              \_ There are libertarians in office.  They just call themselves
                 socially liberal Republicans, or fiscally conservative
                 Democrats because no-one votes for a third party.
2004/1/6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11689 Activity:nil
1/6     Go Bush: Bush pro-immigration:
        \_ http://csua.org/u/5g0
        \_ It's all about bringing in cheap farm labor so you can eat your
           all vegan diet instead of paying the real cost for your food.
           \_ good for economy, good for national security, good
              for immigrants, good for Mexico, good for the Bush, good
              for the country.
           \_ But those cheap labor are sending money to their home countries,
              hurting US economy.  Plus they are breaking the law and they
              are cutting in front of those waiting in line for years to
              immigrate legally.  I guess nobody cares about the law and
              fairness these days.
              \_ what if it is a separate queue?
2003/12/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:29737 Activity:moderate
12/29   Republicans for Illegal Immigration
        \_ Even Republicans are now into this way of buying votes.  I think we
           should amend the Constitution to ban anything that rewards illegal
        \_ Reagan did it, why not Bush?
2003/12/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:11584 Activity:low
12/13   "Organizers charge white students $1 for a cookie, while blacks and
        other minorities pay 25 to 95 cents. Doughnuts are available for 50
        cents to everyone except Asian Americans and whites, who cannot
        purchase them... Unfair? So is affirmative action, organizers contend."
        from http://csua.org/u/5d4
        \_ The most pathetic thing is that these stunts were first pulled
           by conservatives at UM during their recent affirmative action
           debate, and it appears on the news wires every time some imitators
           buy a couple of poster boards and $20 of cookies at the local
           supermarket.  (The people who were suing UM were horribly deluded
           to think that their race kept them out, btw.)  And also, wtf wants
           to go to UW?
           \_ Not everyone can get into your rich little white boy school.
        \_ How come Asian Americans cannot purchase them?       -asian am
           \_ There are no asians in Washington.
           \_ Because Asian Americans, like whites, need higher GPAs and test
              scores to get admitted compared to applicants of other races.
                \_ that is sooooo untrue. Look at Vietnamnese people. I've
                   roomed with 2 of them and 1 of them was a total complete
                   loser who liked to mod his car with ugly looking spoilers.
                   The other one was a thief who took my mail and stole
                   my CC # to buy things. Both of them went to VCs.
                   \_ VCs = vietcongs?
        \_ Trolling with public funds.  Obtaining cookies has an even playing
           field.  Education does not.
           \_ Wtf does 'even playing field' even mean?  What about poor white
              immigrants, etc?
              \_ At the most distilled, Opportunity.  Anything from parents
                 that actually know that they should help you learn (and
                 hopefully had an education themselves) to having a teacher
                 that recognizes your individual needs in education and has
                 the funds and time to address them. --scotsman
                 p.s. and before you get your panties in a bunch, no, race
                 lines are not a perfect way to draw the boundaries, but
                 strangely enough, the economic and racial lines show a
                 strong corellation.
                 \_ Then why not just choose economic lines and ignore race?
                    Do you seriously believe that middle class black parents
                    will raise their kids less well or know less than poor
                    white trash from the sticks?  Doing anything by race is
                    evil.  No bullshit.  No excuses.
                    \_ Do you seriously believe that racism is not still a
                       part of the problem?  And "anything by race is evil" is
                       a little strong.  Look at the reasons Prop 54 went down
                       so hard.  There are real divisions in terms of health
                       care and education that must be addressed in terms of
                       race/culture. --scotsman
                       \_ Nice dodge.  What about those middle class black kids
                          vs. the poor white kids?  Go read your own words
                          above starting with "Opportunity.  Anything from
                          parents...".  Stop ducking and please answer.
                          \_ It's not a dodge.  It's multiple parts of
                             the problem of education.  There is racism, and
                             there is insufficient funding and opportunity
                             for poorer schools/students etc.  There is no
                             panacea.  Racism has perhaps garnered more
                             attention, but calling it solved is ludicrous.
                             Scholastic funding for poor areas is a problem
                             that has headed in the wrong direction for a
                             long time. --scotsman
                             \_ Ben, what problem are you solving?  Are you
                                solving: (a) that some parents are idiots,
                                and don't instill the value of education in
                                their kids (such people exist in all races)
                                (b) that some people are poor and some are not
                                (such people exist in all races) or
                                (c) racist attitudes about some people (they
                                exist about people of all races, in particular
                                jews, members of the caucasian race, have been
                                the 'beneficiaries' of racism for thousands of
                                years).  So, which problem is it?  And why
                                penalize whites, regardless of which of the
                                three it is?  -- ilyas
                                \_ I am not a communist as you believe,
                                   ilya, but I do believe that education and
                                   health care are rights that everyone should
                                   be guaranteed.  I think that racism impinges
                                   on peoples' access to education.  I think
                                   that the best teachers spend nearly as much
                                   time educating parents as they do on their
                                   students (which shouldn't be necessary, but
                                   is).  I think the phrase "benefitting from
                                   racism" is loaded, and as unhelpful to
                                   discourse as comparing affirmative action
                                   to cookies is.  Returning to the financial
                                   aspect, I believe investment in education
                                   has a higher return that most people suppose,
                                   and deserves more funding than we have
                                   devoted thus far. --scotsman
                                   \_ Let me ask this again.  What justification
                                      do you have for penalizing whites?
                                      It doesn't have to be moral, it could
                                      be pragmatic.  I just want to know what
                                      the justification is, because I don't
                                      think it has been articulated yet.
                                        -- ilyas
                    \_ Refer to history.  Social movements brought us here.
                       Helping the poor is not what the rich do...  Helping
                       those who were socially outcast has much more political
                       leverage.  Besides the "Poor" don't vote...
                       \_ Helping the poor is exactly what the rich do.  It is
                          not what the middle class does because they can't
                          afford it.  That's why you get ultra rich leftists
                          like Gates and Buffet saying taxes are too low.  They
                          don't care what the tax rates are because it doesn't
                          mean anything to them but it makes them feel less
                          guilty to know they may have helped some poor people
                          (at the real world expense of the middle class). So,
                          anyway, you seem to be saying that we should help
                          the middle class black kid but ignore the poor white
                          kid... because he's white?  Brilliant.  Glad you're
                          \_ Then you're reading me wrong.
                          not making public policy.  It's already fucked up
                          enough.  At least today that poor white kid can get
                          *some* help for being poor, although not as much as
                          the middle class black kid.  In your world, the black
                          kid would get 100% and the white kid nothing solely
                          because of the color of their skin.  Sickening.
                          \_ I should make one correction.  Gates is NOT
                             a leftist.  Gates is a big Ayn Rand fan.
                             \_ He probably meant Gates Sr.
           \- "help help. i am an item." i really really hope the aclu
              gets involved in this one. --psb
2003/12/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11376 Activity:nil
12/9    Read this you beatniks and open your eyes:
        \_ Pride goeth before a fall.
           \_ Pride goeth before destruction,
              and an haughty spirit before a fall. Prov 16:18
              \_ I hope you are all right. That way we can have a "Mad Max"
                 world and I can use my guns. Seriously.
2003/11/12 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:11035 Activity:nil
11/11   Support the president!
        \_ support his impeachment!
        \_ Support from the commercial sector seems stronger.
2003/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Health/Women] UID:29619 Activity:nil
11/6    Fox asks health care, education, protection for Mexican migrants
        The president of Mexico called Wednesday for improved
        treatment of Mexicans who enter the United States, including
        better health care and education and respect for the human
        rights of migrants...
        "We must work together so that they can have health insurance,"
2003/10/23-24 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10759 Activity:nil
10/23   I just heard that you get $300/week if you picket 40 hours a week.
        Now I know why they're so active in front of Albertsons/Ralphs
        \_ no shit. in the meantime, I can't go shopping for food because
           of those overly needy bastards.
           \_ I can't wait till your job gets outsourced to India.
                \_ sorry. I'm still in school and will never
                   work in the hitech industry.
                   \_ how about medical transcribing?  how about finance?
                      how about manufacturing?  exactly what skills do you
                      have and what makes you immune to outsourcing?
                        \_ He'll make a fine collector of the dole.
          Hi troll. Immigrants wouldn't do well in finance _/
          or any other job that requires fluency in English. Even with fluency,
          you still don't have the same grasp of the language and the PEOPLE.
          Can't you see??? I have people skills! I'm a people person!!!
          \_ DIE!
          \_ who said immigrants?  we were talking outsourcing and they've
             been outsourcing all sorts of finance jobs to india for quite a
             while now.
          \_ I know many Chinese immigrant friends in accounting.
        \_ This is a ripe opportunity to bring our immigrants into the
           economic system.  We can kill two birds with one stone by replacing
           the Americans who are unwilling to do this mostly unskilled labor
           at the going rate with lower paid immigrants.  Everyone wins.
           \_ Alberston's outside my complex was offering up to $19.98/hr
              for scabs.
           \_ agree, agree.
              \_ so you want to put americans out of work and scab them off
                 with illegal aliens?  that's a good thing?  i didn't know
                 there was anyone on the motd *that* far to the right.
        \_ Do they pay for 40 hours picketing per week?  Also, union workers
           have been contributing an extra $2 per week to the strike fund for
           the last year or so, to prepare for this.
        \_ Just go shopping. I didn't want to, but I had to have a particular
           item and no other stores had it. So I went. It was no big deal.
           I'm going to go again, too.
           \_ No big deal until some striker follows you back to your car and
              beats you with a bat.
              \_ Yeah, right. I'm so scared.
              \_ The guy was a scab, and he tried to run over some picketers.
2003/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:29582 Activity:high
10/20   Great Libertarian party statement re: Rush Limbaugh's drug habit:
        \_ I'm unimpressed.  Even Pat Buchannan occasionally has a good
           point.  Libertarians are, overall, far more evil and influential
           than Buchannan and his neo nazi buddies will ever be in this
           country.  Fuck the libertarians.
           \_ err...libertarians are influential?  since when?!!
              \_ http://www.cato.org
           \_ err...libertarians are evil?  since when?!!
2003/10/16 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10666 Activity:nil
10/16   Why are conservatives so up in arms about illegal immigrants when
        they're obviously so good for business?  You don't see them picketing,
        complaining about better wages or benefits, or making any effort
        to be a squeaky wheel at all.  We've already seen that profits
        trump patriotism (Halliburton under Cheney doing big business in
        Iraq during the sanctions, Reagan selling missiles to Iran for
        profit, etc).
        \_ When did you stop beating your wife?
        \_ The same reason Strom Thurmond switched parties when the
           Republicans became the new home of southern racists.  They
           blather about morality, but if you look at their other positions
           racism is the only explanation for the American "conservative"
           stance on immigration.
        \_ (a) it's not obvious that they are, when costs to the government
               are taken into account, and
           (b) there is a moral argument to be made which is that illegals
               are breaking the law to be here, and should be deported on those
               grounds alone.
           \_ a law that is meagerly enforced, and arguably ineffective because
              its aim is wrong.  If they targeted the demand instead of the
              supply, they'd go further in curbing "illegal" immigration
        \_ Often when people get up in arms about an issue it's because
           they're upset with other things in life and want to feel the
           pleasure of righteous anger by loudly decrying another group.
           This is true of both liberals and conservatives.  -emin
        \_ If someone is willing to answer the question:
           How many people should live in the United States?
           Then all these issues are easily resolved.  -ax
           \_ that question has no answer.
                \_ Or What should the population limit of the US be? -ax
                   \_ the same question, the same lack of answer.  It's
                      a value judgement.
                   \_ And if the answer is the set of Americans that
                      include you minus one, how are we going to settle
                      this?  Fisticuffs at twenty paces?
                   \_ The point is that all this discussion is based on
                      the idea that the US grows without bound.  If you
                      set limits, you can set rates of immigration, etc. -ax
                      \_ If you set limits, you must supply reasons for
                         those limits.  When you do that, you risk sounding
                         like the previous waves of immigrants who were all
                         for their own immigration but wanted the doors shut
                         behind them.
                         \_ I think it is trivial to prove that we should
                            have limits. No one would like the country to
                            have a population of zero. No one would like the
                            country to have a population of 172 Trillion.
                            I think it is obvious that there is some "ideal"
                            zone somewhere between those two and it is the
                            job of the political process to decide where
                            than number is. Personally, I think the United
                            States and California would be better off with
                            fewer people than we have now.
           \_ You seem to imply that there's no distinction possible between
              legal, authorized immigration and illegals.
           \_ Agreed with above.  Even if there is no bound on the number
              of people who can live here, we, as a country, still reserve
              the right to choose who comes here, how they do it, and what
              conditions they should satisfy.
              \_ What is the basis of this "right"?
                 \_ What is the basis of all rights?  This is a good question
                    but one which can be asked with equal force of illegal
                    immigrants themselves: "What is the basis of their right
                    to come to a country unlawfully?" -- ilyas
                     \_ One might suggest that they were endowed by their
                        creator with the right to pursue happiness.  And while
                        I don't agree, I definitely think that if one is going
                        to restrict anothers free movement, it definitely falls
                        on the restrictor to justify his right in doing so and
                        not the other way around.  -phuqm
                        \_ The right to pursue happiness does not allow one
                           to do so at the expense of someone else.  Again,
                           the issue boils down to the effects of illegal
                           immigration on the host country.  I take an even
                           stronger position -- even if illegal immigration
                           has an overall positive effect on a country, the
                           country still need not allow it.  The same principle
                           applies to my house.  I may benefit from having
                           someone over for dinner, but I may not want company
                           that day, and it's my right to refuse. -- ilyas
                           \_ And it goes deeper than this.  Was it easier
                              at one point to get into the US?  If so, what
                              justifies making it harder now?  And if it's
                              unfairly more difficult now, migrating illegally
                              becomes a noble and just activity.
                              \_ It was also easier to break into someone's
                                 house because locks weren't as good, and doors
                                 weren't as sturdy.  It seems perfectly
                                 justifiable to make breakins harder.
                                 \_ Breakins, yes, but why make it harder to
                                    immigrate legally?
                                    \_ Was legal immigration made more
                                       \_ That's the question, innit?
                                    \_ Perhaps because the country is getting
                                       over crowded.
                                       \_ Bzzt.  There's still plenty of room
                                          in the cities and the countryside.
                                          \_ No there isn't. Not given the
                                             current infrastructure. There is
                                             room in some rural areas, but no
                                             immigrants ever go there because
                                             there is no work.
                          \_ In the end, the fact is that the citizens of this
                             country are here now. We may not "deserve" to be
                             here any more than illegal immigrants however we
                             are perfectly justified in protecting our own.
                             If I buy land I am not forced to sell off bits of
                             it to newcomers. Compared to old times, there is
                             no longer wide open lands to settle (at least not
                             where anybody actually wants to or does go). They
                             pack into increasingly poor living areas and it's
                             within our rights to regulate that process and do
                             it under our terms. There are far more people in
                             the world than we need. That's why we have to work
                             our asses off to even afford a piece of land to
                             live on.
        \_ I found this link interesting:
             -- ilyas
2003/10/6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10487 Activity:nil
10/6    'Currently, more than 25 percent of our federal prison
        inmates are illegal aliens who committed crimes. '
        Excessive immigration is sinking Golden State
        \_ if you really want, erect a wall between United States and Mexico.
           If Chinese can do it 2000 years ago, you can too.  By the time you
           erected the wall, you then will discover that certain part of US
           economy is actually *DEPEND* upon illegal aliens(read: agriculture)
           Instead of bitching about illegal aliens, may be you can use your
           limited brain power try to resolve this economic dependency,
           Unless we resolve this issue, not even a wall will resolve the
           illegal alien problem.
2003/10/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10469 Activity:nil
104/    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/6929308.htm
        Because we know Americans aren't willing to do this sort of work,
        we _need_ illegals or nothing would ever get done.
        \_ definitely.  I agree.  - someone who thinks Rush is being
           unfairly mischaracterized.
2003/10/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10466 Activity:nil
10/3    Does anyone have a good link to a discussion of the pros & cons
        of giving drivers licenses to illegal immigrants?  I didn't hear
        about it until a couple of days ago, and it seems rather far-
        fetched, but someone must have presented some good reason or
        it wouldn't have happened, right?
        \_ RANT! GROWL! MESSICANS! GRRR!!!!! DAVIS!!!!! ARNOLD!!!!
        \_ pro: they're driving anyway and we need slave labor
           \_ That's it?!?!?  If they're too broke to pay for insurance,
              what's the point of giving the license that will let them
              get insurance?  And if they *do* get driver's licenses,
              what prevents the INS from tracking them and deporting
              them if they are illegal immigrants?
              \_ The INS?  Nothing.  You forgot about the importance of
                 slave labor.
              \_ the INS bit is easy, you don't let the INS use the DL
                 database.  Other pros: if you make laws so that people
                 stopped without a DL get checked in the INS system and
                 deported, while poeple with DLs just get a speeding
                 ticket, suddenly there are going to be a lot less
                 unliscensed, uninsured drivers out there.
                 \_ Like that would happen.  They already don't deport illegals
                    who have "established connections to the community".  They
                    just let em walk.  Almost no one gets deported.  There's
                    never been a serious effort to stop the influx or kick out
                    those who are found when anyone bothers looking.  This is
                    a load of bullshit.
           con: they shouldn't even be here, they're going to use it to vote,
                it can be used to elevate an illegal to the same level of
                concern in the government's eyes as tax paying citizens.
                \_ DL alone is not a valid enough id to register to vote.
                   \_ Motor Voter!  Howdy!  That's all it takes.  Fact.  I'm
                      a citizen voting every election for 15+ years and I've
                      never showed anyone any real proof of anything to vote.
        \_ Anything which adds drivers to the road is bad.  I don't care
           who they are.  More drivers means more idiots on the roads
           and more pollution.  We should raise the driving age to 18 to
           balance things out.
           \_ Under 18 drivers aren't a significant percentage of drivers out
              there. Furthermore, even if we increase age limit to 18, they're
              still going to be inexperienced drivers on the road. Yeah, they
              will be more mature, but still not confident on the road.
              \_ let's change the minimum driving age to 80, video tape it,
                 sell the tapes, and use the revenue to pay for good public
                 transit in california.  this will also save money on health
                 care for the elderly.
                 \_ public transit can never entirely replace private transit.
                    it cant *never* be that flexible due to it's very nature.
                    \_ try visiting tokyo sometime.
                       \_ the rest of the world isn't built like tokyo.  try
                          visiting *any* large American city.  Actually, try
                          visiting just small city, town, village, or farm in
                          the US.  Hint: this is a bigger place than tokyo and
                Not really.  Ever seen Tokyo?  -John _/
                          frankly who the hell wants to live like the japanese
                          do?  I'm a man, not a sardine.
                          \_ what's really amazing is that i got three serious
                             replies from my "let the elderly kill eachother
                             on the roads" troll.
                             \_ not really.  that part was ignored but you
                                can give yourself a few troll points if you
                                like.  its not like anyone keeps track or
2003/10/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10416 Activity:nil
10/1    Let's say Davis gets recalled and some republican, presumabley Arnie,
        gets elected.  Then some democrates get together and decide to have
        a recall in a couple months.  they succeed, beating arnie with some
        wildly popular democrat celebrity.  This pisses off the republicans,
        who then stage another recall and take over with an even more amazing
        republican celebrity, etc. etc. etc.  when does it stop?  doesn't
        anyone see this as a bad direction to go in, even if you hate davis
        and happen to like one of the potential replacements?  In civilised
        states removing the governor from office ins something only the state
        legislature can do.
        \_ It stops when Arnold takes over because the people won't do another
           recall.  It simply won't pass.  Arnold doesn't have a lengthy and
           well documented record of crimes against the people of this state.
           \_ yeah except for molesting all those women.  And violating his
                \_ urlP
                \_ you can't violate immigration laws in CA.  we don't have
                   any.  and he's a kennedy now so what he did to those women
                   fits right in with the rest of his family.
        \_ wow, you just figured this out?
        \_ it dopesn't stop.  we're doomed.
        \_ when the democrats grow up, it'll stop
           \_ From this comment, it sounds like it's not just the Demos that
              need to grow up.
        \_ You make it sound like its easy to get a recall election ceritifed.
           \_ And it is.
              \_ Which is why it's only happened once but it's been tried
                 dozens of times.  At least pretend to know something.
                 \_ Dozens of times?  Cite, please.
                    \_ The sky is blue.  Go read a fucking newspaper.  It's
                       been mentioned in dozens of articles.
2003/9/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:10256 Activity:moderate
9/19    Whites no longer a majority in bay area: http://csua.org/u/4e0

        "Whites slipped from 51 percent to 49 percent of the region's
         population from July 2000 to July 2002, as a result of
         foreign immigration and the high birthrates among some ethnic
         groups. In contrast, the percentage of Asians and Latinos
         each rose from 20 to 21 percent, while the African-American
         population remained at 8 percent."

        [ learn to format - formatd ]
        \_ FINALLY. It's time for us to take back all the stuff that the
           big oppressive white dicks have been denying us of in the past
           200 years or so. Down with white. Black/yellow/brown power!!!!
           \_ Yeah, now you can go get a job and get off welfare and start
              paying taxes.
        \_ Does this cause you some concern?
                   \_ I'm not concerned.  Now that whites aren't a majority,
                      I'm going to form the White Students Association.
        \_ What exactly is "white"? Are Arabs white? Are Indians Asians?
           I assume most Jews are white. White is also Russian immigrants
           and such as opposed to your standard anglo-style American white.
           I think that group has been a minority for longer. "White" is not
           an ethnic group.
           \_ Tell that to the people who offer certain scholarships for which
              I wasn't eligible simply due to the color of my skin.
                -- russian immigrant (the man can't keep me down)
        \_ Is it any surpise that yellow fever is rampant in the bay area?
           \_ He said "rampant"! heh, heh, heh!
           \_ Adhering to motd formatting conventions makes the motd
              accessible to everyone.
        \_ Arrr!
           \_ Avast!
2003/9/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10168 Activity:nil
9/12    Interesting article in today's WSJ about legal/illegal Latino
        immigration to Europe. At least part of it is the result of
        tightened border security in the US, and Europe has a different
        take on it. Some welcome it as an alternative to help thwart
        illegal muslim immigration (potential terrorists). Other factors
        include a shortage of younger workers, workers know Spanish, etc.
        Spain allows citizenship after 24 mos. because of special
        relationship with latin america which is a lot better than the
        previous special relationship in the america's of taking your
        land and calling you a foreigner (or heathen, etc).
        \_ Oh?  Taking the Spanish speaker's land in America? Excuse me, but
           that requires an immediate "fuck you".  Who do you think the
           Spaniards stole it from along with a healthy dose of torture,
           murder, rape, slavery, theft, looting, and fire, to say nothing
           of intentionally and systematically obliterating the once highly
           advanced cultures that were here before the Spanish and their
           descendants.  I have no pity or sympathy for anyone trying to use
           that "they stole our land from us!" line when right now they're
           still oppressing the Indians in southern Mexico and putting the
           final touches on wiping out the few remaining tribes hiding out
           in the deeper forests further south.  Learn some history then you
           can come back here trolling about the poor oppressed Spanish
           speakers and how "their" land got "stolen".
           \_ hello, spittle-emitter, you totally missed his point.
           \_ Yeah, but what a great rant!
           \_ Perhaps the irony of the peoples of latin america immigrating
              to Europe caused a short-circuit in your neural synapses
              causing you to become a "spittle-emitter".
           \_ Aren't Mexicans Indians?
              \_  Mexicans are a mix of Aztecs and Spaniards.
              \_ Largely.  Conquered by the Spaniards.  (Of course, Bustamonte
                 for example isn't--he's a pure-bred Spaniard.)
                 \_ Aren't Spaniards just Arabs that converted to
                    \_ So they aren't really caucacians or "white"?
              \_ Emotional statement of fact.  Mexico is run by an aristocracy
                 involved in rural cleansing of the poor / troublemakers.
                 Where do they send them - here for course.  Although
                 casting the Indians as the victims is a little far fetched.
                 \_ How is casting Indians as victims in any way far fetched?
                    Have you read or heard *anything* about what's going on
                    in the southern states?  Anything at all?
2003/8/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:29455 Activity:high
8/23    Illegals busting education budget
        \_ Or illegals are picking farmer's produce and getting paid
           squat, so farmers and everyone else up the food chain get
           paid lots of $$$ except those at the very bottom. Same goes
           for construction, restaurants, etc. In short, illegals are
           good for doing jobs that no one else wants to do, and also
           for scapegoating during hard economic times. The business
           community will never stand for stopping illegal immigration
           because they will never find americans to work the fields,
           clean offices at night, and wash dishes for minimum wage. So
           scapegoat all you want, but illegals and those at the bottom
           are indispensible to businesses and the profits that they
           generate. You directly benefit because costs for your restaurant
           meal are lower, food from the grocery stores are lower, etc.
           \_ you wish.  take a look around.  when the only jobs left in
              america for someone without a fancy pants education like we have
              are retail, janitorial, and farm jobs americans will be
              fighting for the janitorial and farm jobs.  it beats retail.
              welcome to the newest third world country.
           \__ So you are telling me we need 11 million illegal farm
               workers in addition to the 20+ million who have been given
               amnesty in the past 20 years?   Exactly how large of an
               underclass do you want to create - because they are not
               assimilating.  Graduation rates from high school are <30%.
               When does it stop - should we import all of latin america
               to be our slave labor?  Teenagers or blue
               collar workers used to perform these tasks, and still would
               if given the opportunity.  How do you know I benefit?  Is this
               hearsay - the National Academy of Sciences says we pay
               tens of thousands to each illegal over their lifetime.  The real
               price of meat and produce has not fallen, neither has the cost
               of living.
2003/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29367 Activity:high
8/15    A short essay on labels in America:
        \_ It's really funny that someone would erase a link to an essay
           advocating moderation.  You guys crack me up!  Restored (twice).
           advocating moderation.  You guys crack me up!  Restored (thrice).
2003/8/15 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:29355 Activity:nil
8/15    Cracking down on Illegal Criminals
         "This past December, a man and woman sitting on a New York
         City park bench were surrounded by a gang of young men. The
         gang kicked and beat the woman before dragging her along
         the nearby railroad tracks and forcing her into the woods,
         where they repeatedly raped the 42-year-old mother of two
         and threatened to kill her."
        \_ The term 'gang' has a negative connotation which prejudices the
           reader against the young men before their side has had a chance
           to be aired in an open court in front of a jury of their peers.
           I find this entire article racist, classist, and typical of
           the hatred the ultra right wing religious nuthead freepers are
           spreading.  They should be stopped.  No free speech for fascists!
2003/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:29038 Activity:nil
7/14    Crisis continues: US may abolish H1-B visa
2003/6/28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28853 Activity:very high
6/27    Landmark Studies Reveal Virtually All Of California's Population
        Explosion Due To Immigration
        Could it be that this is somehow related to the 30$ + billion
        \_ most states are having budget crisis now.  compare to states
           without immigration in large numbers or your hated democratic
           governer.  Most states had lots of money a few years ago
           when the economy was doing well.  They spent rather than saved
           because that's what 99% of all politicians do, and now we all
           pay the price.  I live in a state with a fiscally conservative
           republican govorner and no population growth for the last 10 years,
           and we're totally fucked right now(well, ok, not as fucked as CA.)
           \_ Maybe that "not as fucked as CA" part is the difference between
              having an (R) vs a (D) in office.
              \_ I'm sure there are alot of reasons, but mainly our bubble
                 wasn't as big a few years ago, so it didn't pop as hard.
                 Besides, this is just a small state (CT).  BTW, Rowland is
                 currently under investigation for curruption.
        \_ Or could it be the cause of our ever growing economy?
           More people spend more money
           \_ And pay more taxes.
        \_ Ah, the inevitable "blame it on the immigrants" troll.  Didn't
           we get enough of this with Wilson?
           \_ How is this a troll? I don't agree with the person, but it
              seems like a reasonable attempt to discuss the issues.
                \_ now this one is a better troll.
                   \_ Uh oh, someone said something you don't agree with!  It
                      must be a troll!  How dare anyone have an opinion or
                      espouse a political philosophy different from yours?
                      Diversity in opinion and thought is ok as long as every
                      one believes what you believe, eh?
           \_ Uh, Wilson was against *ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS* not immigrants
              in general. Illegal immigration was and still is a problem.
        \_ No, that's due to Davis spending billions that we didn't have on
           energy futures.
           \_ And various give aways to special interests on the left such as
              the prison guard unions and big acre farmers.
              \_ I knew it! Those big landowners are all secretly communists,
                 right? Have you completely lost your mind? Prison guards
                 are another group of well known anarchists and socialists.
                 \_ Nice dodge but no cigar.  Maybe next time you'll do better
                    at completely ducking the point, eh?
        \_ Y'all rekon them furiners ain't payin' 'nof taxes compare to us
           pau native folk?
           \_ Because everyone to your right on the political spectrum is
              obviously a backwoods southern hick stereotype.  If you can't
              debate them, insult and smear them.  Very Clintonesque of you.
              Hillary would be proud.
                 \_ Its a fricking joke. Do I have to add j/k after
                    my jokes so that people like you won't overreact?
                    (BTW, Buchanan-ites are probably the only people
                     further right on the political spectrum than me)
                     \_ Fuck you.
                     \_ You're on the motd; yes you do.
              \_ well, it's better than deleting the thread.  no matter how
                 annoying you find someones blather, you should admit that
                 they are above the untouchable scum mother**ckers we call
                 "motd censors."  Besides, Clinton *was* a southern hick
                 stereotype.  Can you name one instance in Bill Clinton's
                 carreer when he used stereotyping smear tactics?   I just
                 saw him in an inteview saying that he thought trent lott
                 had been the victim of an unfair smear campaign. I'm pretty
                 sure you'll never hear bush say that about a democrat.
                 \_ Read just about any Hillary speech.  Start with the VRWC
                    stuff and work your way forward.
        \_ And *how* was this not a troll again?
           \_ And again *how* is it possible for anyone who has different
              political opinions from yours to *not* be a troll?  I think
              you're a new form of a troll.  You're a meta-troll.  You troll
              about trolling.
        \_ The older you get, the more you will realize idiots are ruining
           our country for ours as well as future generations.  -ax
           \_ Yes.  Who did you vote for the last several elections?  Very few
              of the candidates I voted for made it.  And do you also vote in
              the midterm elections?  If you don't vote you don't count.
           \_ The Federalists said the same thing about Jefferson. The
              Confederates said the same thing about the Republicans.
        \_ http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5271
           The National Research Council found that in California, ... each
           native household is paying about $1,178 a year in state and local
           taxes to cover the gap between the services used by immigrant
           households and their tax receipts.
           \_ yeah, give Texas and the southern states back so that the native
              north american people don't have to be called illegal immigrants,
              and whose quality of life has eroded steadily since 1492.
              \_ You know nothing about native americans or how they lived.
        \_ What the illegal immigrant haters always forget is that those tax
           dollars are more than offset by the incredibly cheap prices we
           pay for fruits, vegetables and grains harvested by the ultra
           cheap labor that illegal immigration makes possible.  No American
           citizen is willing to work for $5000 to $7000 dollars a year, yet
           in order for you to pay the price that you want at the grocery
           store, someone must do it.  The next time you eat a strawberry,
           think about the life of the person that picked it.  Have you ever
           picked strawberries for any length of time?  Do you know how
           backbreaking it can be?  Now think about doing that for 12 hour
           days, three months at a stretch, with no healthcare and no bathroom
           \_ Kick them all out and patrol the border properly and we'll have
              safer streets, fewer prisons, and less disease.  The tax savings
              will more than make up for what might be a few pennies saved on
              a basket of strawberries picked by criminals.
                \_      next time you eat a strawberry, consider that some poor
                        illegal immigrant peed on it because he couldn't have a
                        bathroom break
2003/6/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28645 Activity:high
6/5     Nine Illegal Aliens Arrested [working construction.
        No Americans were willing work perhaps?]
        \_ At the primo rate of $50/day with no more chance of getting into
           the union? Oh yeah, gotta jump on that job.
           \_ HEY! No whining about our free market!
              \_ A market where capital can move freely over borders but
                 labor cannot is not really free.
        \_ They shouldn't arrest the illegals, just ship em south.  They should
           arrest the employers.  That would quickly put an end to all this
           illegal border crossing bullshit.
2003/5/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28392 Activity:nil
5/9     Where is the Freeper Outrage when you need it?
        Could it be that Republicans get a free pass for this thing?
        \_ Don't worry.  My man Pat Buchanan will be all over this like
           the good Reform Party head that he is.
2003/4/18-19 [Reference/Law/Visa, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28160 Activity:nil
4/17    Are there plug-ins/add-ins (or something like that) available for
        xfig to make it easier to draw circuit schematics?
        \_ Try "dia"  IIRC, it has an icon set for circuits.  --dbushong
2003/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:27835 Activity:moderate
3/24    Slain Marine Immigrated to U.S., Alone, as a Teen
        (hero from Guatemala died for America)
        \_ what? no one is going to say how we exploited this poor immigrant?
           where are the leftists when you need a bad laugh?
2003/3/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27764 Activity:high 54%like:27762
3/20    Autobots Roll Out!
        \_ I hope he's not indicative of the type of ppl in our military
           \_ oh trust me, he is
              \_ why should anyone trust you?
2003/3/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:27675 Activity:very high
3/12    For those of you who are naturalized citizens or who somehow know,
        after you have formally filed application for naturalization but
        before you are granted an interview and/or the approval, can you
        leave the country for an extended period of time without jeopardizing
        your application?  I have googled and searched on INS site, but did
        not find the answer.  It must be in some CFR or USC, but that are
        big.  Please answer only if you know the answer.  Appreciate any URL
        too.  Ok, tnx.
        \_ Yes, but you need permission. If you leave the country w/o it,
           you are f*cked.
           \_ That's for leaving Before you file the application, for over
              1 year or 6 months, or there is a requirement for after the
              application is filed also?
           \_ the needed permission is called "advance parole":
              Here is the link for travel:
        \_ My mom left the US for a few months after filing her application
           for naturalization.  She came back after getting her interview
           notice.  She is currently staying put waiting for her oath
           ceremony after her interview resulted in a "recommended for
           approval", but I believe the immigration officer at the interview
           told her she can leave the country if she wants to.  Consult a
           \_ How long does it take her to get an interview notice and
              interview itself after filing the application and how long
              to get the ceremony?  Ok tnx.
              \_ She filed in April, had her fingerprint in July, and
                 her interview the day before Thanksgiving.  She got her
                 oath ceremony notice very fast (originally scheduled
                 around late December), but the day before the ceremony,
                 she was informed that the whole ceremony got cancelled.
                 From reading the news, it seemed that in the past, if
                 INS doesn't hear back from FBI, they assume the case is ok,
                 but now, each case needs to be individually approved by
                 FBI, and FBI cannot keep up with the work load, so INS
                 cancels.  Also, it seemed like INS just left the
                 whole pile of cases sitting there until my mom called them.
                 Then things started rolling and they said "4 weeks".
                 3 1/2 weeks later, my mom called again, and was told
                 "one more week" (to get the notice for ceremony).  That's
                 where it is sitting now.  Calling INS can mean long hold
                 times.  I think they then give you a  number for a local
                 INS office to call, which is where you can find someone
                 who can actually check your case.  All this is in Chicago,
                 so it may not apply to you.
                 \_ ** errors corrected **
                 \_ Great, another immigrant come to steal my social
                    security trust fund.
                    \_ I think you don't get any social security unless
                       you work and pay taxes for 10 years.  My mom would
                       get it though since she worked for U of Chicago
                       for some years, back in the 60s.
                       \_ Not so.  She'd get it if her husband had it.  She'd
                          get welfare and a boatload (hah!) of medical bene's
                          just for being here.
                          \_ I think you are mistaken about the "husband"
                             part.  Also, I believe the same 10-year rule
                             applies to medicare and medicaid.
                 \_ My God!  We live in a fascist state!  Look at the huge
                    and privacy destroying hassle we put innocent people
                    through just to be able to live here.  Just because they
                    were born somewhere else is no reason they shouldn't have
                    all the rights of someone who simply had parents here.
2003/2/8 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:27349 Activity:high
2/8     Border hospitals claim money ills (from having to treat nonpaying
        'Grah estimates 30 percent of the babies delivered at Chula Vista
        are to women who live south of the border. '
        'If someone is six or seven months' pregnant, they will come
        up from Tijuana on a shopping expedition and never go back,"
        \_ The above is posted by jblack
        \_ the costs of the technology and militias that we fund to hunt
           down (and often kill) these immigrants is far greater than
           the cost of childbirths to illegal immigrants. but thanks for
           revealing your ignorace, jblack.
           \_ Hearsay, unfortunately admissable on the motd.
              Care to back up your assertion with facts or is
              this what you wish for?  The irony is you are
              too stupid to realize you and your children pay
              for this out of your pocket.
              Tell this to displaced Blacks in innercities.
              \_ no, I have no desire to scour the web finding facts to
                 try and enlighten the ignorant on the motd. Why don't
                 you try and find some facts to disprove the stmt if you
                 care so much. part of my point: how could you even hope
                 to quantify "the cost of childbirths to illegal
                 immigrants". I mean, there are so many economic factors
                 at play, you couldn't even make any sort of meaningful
                 But thanks for reducing your argument to snivelling and
                 name-calling. Anyway, what do you have against immigrants?
                 ... did your dad once lose his job scrubbing toilets to
                 a Mexican once? Please continue to display your racist
                 ignorace. it is entertaining as always.
                 PS - jblack is a racist.
                 \_ Hi Tom!
                   \_ bzzt.  -tom
                   \_  Been waiting for the classic liberal ploy,
                       someone who disagrees with you is a racist.
                       Can't your puny little intellect
                       evolve beyond this ruse.
                            migrated to America I see a problem.
                       You see - there is no problem with LEGAL
                       immigration.  Spell it with me L-E-G-A-L.
                       Contrarily, when 20% of all Hondurans have
                       migrated to America, and when there are 11 million
                       undocumented illegals who on average have
                       less than a 3rd degree education, and who form
                       30% of California's prison population - I see a problem.
                       Oh, but wait its racist and offensive to present
2003/2/3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:27287 Activity:nil
2/2     African-Americans drowning in wave of illegal immigration
2003/1/14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:27085 Activity:nil
1/13    How I Joined Teach for America -- and Got Sued for $20 Million
        \_ Obviously the answer is to give more money to the school system.
           That'll fix everything.
2003/1/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:27021 Activity:high
1/07    Coming to a State Near You: California's Illegal
        Immigration Economic Nigthmare
        \_ Thar she blows! Round up the harpoons! We're after a
           freeper carcass!
        \_ Don't waste your time with that trash site. They just
           censor anything they disagree with.
2002/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26861 Activity:high
12/19   Does anyone in the INS or the Justice dept actually believe that any
        of the people that have been arrested are terrorists?
        \_ Of course, terrorists take the time and energy to register
           with immigration authorities.  *snicker*
           \_ Idiot, the best way to blend in is to sign up with everyone
              else so you don't stick out.  Do you avoid paying the IRS so
              they won't catch you making a filing error, too?  *snicker*
           \_ why not?  there have been a bunch of al qaida terrorists
                \_ Except in this case you get arrested and thrown in
                   jail which prevents you from completing your mission.
                   \_ maybe that's on purpose. a sort of "cry for help".
           \_ why not?  there have been a bunch of terrorist-types
              who are also legal us immigrants.  a us passport is handy
              for international travel.  besides, if a terrorist could
              follow us immigration law at a low cost, why not?  why
              increase one's exposure to law enforcement?
           \_ Would you expect a terrorist to follow traffic laws?
        \_ i thought those socal fellows were arrested for things like
           visa violation.
           \_ Pretty much. They are playing the Zero Tolerance game. Any
              problems with your visa and, poof, you're in jail.
              \_ Actually it should be no visa = ass kicked out.  I don't want
                 to spend money keeping these clowns in jail.  Plane tickets
                 are much cheaper.
              \_ zero tolerance is good.
                 \_ Be sure to think that the next time you get a speeding
                    or parking ticket.
                    \_ i wish they did.  the best way to get a bad law
                       repealed is for the authorities to enforce it.
                       of course, the logic behind this idea of zero
                       tolerance on one law requires zero tolerance on
                       all laws is questionable.
                    \_ What the other guy said.  And I don't protest and
                       throw fits when I do get a speeding ticket.
2002/12/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26839 Activity:high
12/17   Ashcroft's Genius:
                \_ No immigration.   Problem solved.  -ax
                   \_ gee I'm sure there'd be no problems created
                   \_ How do you plan to prevent illegal immigration? Its
                      not as if the dangerous ones will stop trying to get
                      \_ Duh.  The same way you'd deal with any invading
                         army.  You'd shoot them on sight.
                         \_ passive deterrence works better.  think land
                            \_ No way.  You know anything about tree ringing
                               and gypsy worm catepillars?  The first batch of
                               worms to crawl up the tree hits the poisoned
                               tree collar and dies, the next batch crawls over
                               their corpses, etc, etc, until the collar is
                               covered and the rest continue on up and strip
                               the tree dead.
2002/11/17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26570 Activity:nil
11/16   Somalis accuse Lewiston mayor of racism, bigotry
        \_ So tell me, was this posted by an anti-freeper?
2002/11/17 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26569 Activity:very high
11/15   Finally!  The right common sense way for the US to deal with the
        rest of the world.  I'm too young to have voted for him at the time
        but I sure wish the world had more leaders like this.  We need this
        sort of courage in times like these.
        \_ Like sheep to the slaughter...  It's too bad he wasn't around
           during WWII eh?
           \_ Do you propose then that we openly violate treaties that we
              have signed and expect other countries to follow?
              \_ why propose something that's already being done?
                 \_ Name one.  And don't name the anti-nuke treaty with the
                    Soviets.  There was an 'out' clause built into the original
                    treaty and we legally exited.
                    \_ invasion of Serbia without authorization of UN
                       security consoul for one.  GHB's authorization of
                       invasion of Panama is another.  For the rest, US just
                       pressure other nation to sign but not signing it
                       itself, including Univeral declaration of Women's
                       right, Univeral ban on land mind, biological weapon,
                       and nuclear test.
                       \_ Serbia: say what?  You're insane.  It was a NATO
                          sponsored action.  You know, NATO?  That treaty
                          created org?  Panama?  What treaty was that?  The
                          one where we gave up control of the incredibly
                          important PC to a bunch of third worlders?  And for
                          the rest, if we didn't sign it then we didn't break
                          it.  Your debate fu is weak.  Try harder.  I actually
                          thought you might come up with something but I see I
                          was correct: we didn't break any treaties: you're
                          just spewing your agenda driven ignorance.
        \_ --"For every time an American gives a dollar, a citizen of Norway
           --gives 17 dollars," he [Carter] said."
           I'd love to see the numbers on this.
           \_ And the tax rates.  And how much of American tax dollars have
              gone to keeping Norway a safe place to live.  And how many
              immigrants they allow in and how easy it is to work or get
              citizenship there vs here.
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26240 Activity:high
10/17   3 votes against the asian chick.  Racism!
        \_ stay angry! http://www.angryasianman.com/angry.html
        \_ What about Terilyn Joe?
2002/10/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26176 Activity:insanely high
10/14   anybody have experience whistle blowing  or getting a news organization
        to write about something using internal info?  My company is laying off
        american workers here and hiring a shitload of indian programmers.
        What the fuck?  I want more coverage on shit like this.
           \_ Are they laying off workers in the US and hiring them for the
              office in india?
        \_ Time to look for another job. Based on my experience with h1b fops
           (as opposed to h1bs with grad degrees from a US school), they are
           probably the only group of programmers on earth worse than the
           '1337 GN00/L1NUX crowd. Placing products in h1b hands invariably
           means buggy code that is delivered late. Buggy products that are
           late don't sell well in most markets, which will lead to the
           untimely demise of your company (sold or bankrupt). Save yourself,
           look for another job.
        \_ on another note, what do you think of illegal immigrants
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-Americans,
              right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
           being charged in-state tuition at state funded colleges
           in California?
           \_ If we charge them out-of-state tuition then we might
              hurt their feelings which would be bad.
           \_ duh, ship them home.  fucking ridiculous.
        \_ what about http://www.fuckedcompany.com
           \_ heh, one way or another they'll be listed on fc eventually.
        \_ Your best bet is probably Salon. Any mainstream news organization
           is going to avoid stories like these. A friend of mine wrote a
           story on this topic for The Chronicle and the next week her boss
           called in to his office and told her she would be fired if she
           kept writing controversial stuff like that.
           \_ I wonder if your friend is covered by any sort of whistleblower
              laws?  What company was it?
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-
              Americans, right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
              \_ H1Bs are only to be used when local employees don't exist.
                 \_ Don't be naive.  It never works like that.
                 \_ Exactly, and so why would the Chronicle find it offensive
                    to expose this employer's bad behavior?  [formatd]
                    \_ I got the feeling that it had annoyed some important
        \_ Maybe try to get the laid-off people to sue.
           \_ After lawyer and uncle Sam, you arent going to get much out
              of the law suit even if you won, at the expense of no one
              ever want to hire you in the future.
        \_ what's wrong with that?
           \_ for starters its against the law....
              \- What law is it against? --psb
                 \_ You can't replace citizens with H1b's.  The law that
                    creates the H1b program defines when they can be legally
                    used.  Replacing Americans isn't it.
                    \- maybe you should become a steel worker.
                       \_ maybe the scumbags who are illegally letting in
                          foreigners should following the fucking law and get
                          punished when they violate it?
                          \- what do you mean by "scumbags illegally letting
                          in foreigners"? if you mean cracking down on say
                          emplyers hiring illegal immigrant farm workers,
                          domestic help and such, i agree with you ... that
                          is certainly more efficient, but politcally naturally
                          it is unpalatable to crack down on the white collar
                          nanny-hiring set ... as it is easier to go after
                          poor drug dealers rather than raiding suburban
                          coke parties. i thought you were talking about
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker is
                          available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs will
                          do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          legal aliens? --psb
                           \_ If an H1b is allowed in to the country to replace
                              an American worker that is an illegal use of the
                              H1b visa, therefore the H1b person is here
                              illegally and the company sponsor has broken the
                              law.  The first should be deported and the other
                              needs some legal punishment.  That's what I mean.
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of the
                voting population, then vote to change the flag and the national
                language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                       \_ By the way, how can you tell whether an H1B worker is
                          replacing an American or taking a job that one else
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker
                          is available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs
                          will do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          wouldn't afford to hire an american for $70K/year
                          anyways but I can imagine that there might be
                          companies that can afford to pay $70K per year to an
                          American worker but still try to get a "free ride" by
                          hiring an H1B worker.
                          \_ It's based on the concept of 'market rate' not
                             what some cheap ass company can 'afford'.
                \_ Exactly.  What's wrong with replacing every single worker in
                this country with a lower cost imported worker, then have them
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of
                the voting population, then vote to change the flag and the
                national language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                \- h1b workers cannot vote [which i think is proper]. also
                   "infiltrating the electorate"  and then "voting for change
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT jobs
           left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are "more
           expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
                   is probably a lot less efficient than just lobbying with $
                   oh wait you are only interesting in restricting the
                   influence of poor people without the money to lobby? --psb
                   \_ Anyone who shows at a polling place can vote.  When I
                      voted the last few times (each in a different county), I
                      simply pointed at my name on their list and voted.
        \_ there was a lot of h1b bashing on craigslist, but one tidbit of
           info was a suit against Sun for laying off am. workers but keeping
           and/or hiring foreign workers. I'm sure that you if gave real hard
           evidence to those being laid off that they could sue the company
           for lotsa $$$. rather than face publicity, a company usually will
           settle with the employees that sued. some employees sign away their
           right to sue when they agree to a severance package. give these
           people a smoking gun now before it's too late.
        \_ Imagine this scenario:  There are one million IT workers.  The
           economy doubles, one million H1B visa workers are added.  Now there
           are two million IT workers.  The economy goes in the toilet, we now
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT
           jobs left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are
           "more expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
           \_ please try to constrain your scenarios to something approaching
              reality.  Companies for the most part don't prefer H1B workers
              to "real 'merricuns", which is why H1B applications have dropped
              drastically since the dotcom bust.  -tom
              \_ how the hell would *you* know?  you *ever* worked outside the
                 cozy warm fuzzy walls of academia?
           \_ We should have formed a union when the economy was strong. Then
              we'd be like those dockworkers. -ausman
              \_ Some folks talked about it at the time.  Where were you?
                 \_ You should have contacted me. I could never find anyone
                    else interested.
           \_ Partha seems to think so.
           \_ Of course not, but is firing one million H1Bs and not firing
              a single American fair?  Is it feasible, and would that make
              sense?  If you are an employer and you have two employees,
              1 an H1B and the other an American citizen or PR.  Both of
              them have worked at the company for 3 years.  Let's assume that
              H1B is the better employee in terms of skills and dedication.
              So you decide to layoff the American citizen.  Would you
              consider that as breaking the law?
              \_ Is it fair to fire everyone H1b before a single American?
                 Yes.  That's what the law says.  That's the risk the H1b
                 takes when coming here on an H1b. (or is supposed to be
                 taking)  Your hypothetical situation is not what the H1b
                 covers or has anything to do with.  Of course you keep your
                 H1b DBA and lay off the American janitor.
                 \_ I disagree.  I think it should only be during hiring
                    when the American should have preference over an H1B
                    worker.  The preference should not exist when deciding
                    whom to layoff.  When hiring, American workers are,
                    in principle, protected by the requirement that a H1B
                    worker's salary meets prevailing wages requirements.
                    Breaking the law: "Hiring a H1B worker to replace an
                    American citizen."  Not breaking the law: "Firing
                    an American citizen instead of a H1B worker based
                    on performance and merit."
                    \_ You realise that in an at-will job market like CA, your
                       plan has about, oh, 5.7 zillion loop holes in it?  And
                       that's still not the law.
           \- what do you suggest is fair in that scenario? seniority only?
              cut everyone back to 20hrs/week? i realize this often fails
              but i think companies do have some sense to look at efficiency
              not just expense ... so if you are 50% more productive but
              make 30% more than a h1b, then you should be secure. now if
              the problem is you arent that much more productive, then you
              do have a problem. but except for the nationlistic aspect this
              is the same thing middle-aged people with "20yrs experience"
              whine about when some kid whose only friend is his PS2 replaces
              him ... because the kid is willing to work until 10pm and on
              weekends in exchange for free tshirts and soda. --psb
              \_ The H1b is supposed to be making market rate.  If he's not
                 then we have yet another illegal hiring by the company.
                 \- 30% difference is within "market rate" i believe.
                    we're not talking about shipping a job overseas where
                    they may be making less by an order of mag.
                    \_ 30% spread for the same job title/skills/experience is
                       *nothing* like market rate.
        \_ Americans should come first, that is the point.  What other
           \- how about "white people"? should white people come first too?
           country shows us any real generosity?  Why should we be making
           citizens of other countries rich?  -ax
                    \- i wouldnt chalk this up to "generosity" but one
                       interpretation of part ofthe h1b phenomenon is
                       the indian govy is subsidizing the education
                       for us high tech workers. --psb
                       \_ say what?  how do you figure *that*?
           \_ cuz like dude it's all one world. you should spend your time
              creating free software with no compensation so these other
              countries can use that too.
              \_ D00D U R 50 R1GH7! FR33 D3B14N GN00/L1NUX 4 3V3RY1!
        \_ While all of you fuckheads were arguing I went out and started a
           company, sold it and am now typing this from my beach house in
           Tahiti.  Just thought you should know.
                \_ How fast is the internet in Tahiti? Do you have a
                   fiber line or are you stuck with a sat. uplink?
                   \_ I have a T-1, but it's pretty damn pricey.
                   \_ He got his T1 from me.  I'm running a few sat. phones
                      from the beach house he's renting from me and told him
                      it was a full T1, just slow because of the distance.
           \_ are you the guy who wrote OrCAD on his apple ][ in 6th grade?
2002/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26043 Activity:nil
9/29    Discussion on illegal immigration, and the 'food' argument.
2002/9/22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:25974 Activity:very high
9/21    Subcommittee on Social Security - Effects of Illegal Immigration
        \_ Food for thought:  If all businesses are made to comply with
           current immigration law, yes, you will have less incentive for
           illegal immigration.  You will also see a rise in costs and then
           prices as employees organize, demand reasonable wages (or even
           minimum wage), and strike.  Small farms, which rely on illegal and
           thus inexpensive labor, will see a drop in profitability.  Not that
           I'm saying any of this outweighs the benefits, but we should be
           aware of where this may lead. --erikred
           \_ And lower crime rates, lower costs for social services, hospital
              emergency rooms that have time for emergencies, schools that have
              the resources to teach and lower taxes to pay for the lesser
              burden on society.  We should be aware of where current illegal
              immigration has taken us already.
              \_ Actually, dear freeper, the immigrants, compared to true
                 blue Americans, tend to be much more hardworking, much less
                 dependent on social welfare, and overall very conservative
                 as a group on all social issues the "conservatives" cared
                 about, not that I agree with them.
                        \_ Ahh, nothing like pontificating from a position
                           of ignorance.  Even a cursory investigation
                        \_ I'm not a freeper, thanks.  And I'd like to see a
                           link showing any half baked statistics to back up
                           your highly questionable and worse than anecdotal
                           claims.  You're spewing, not saying anything worthy
                           of calling a reply or debating.  There's no meat on
                           your stick (so to speak).
                        \_ Nothing like pontificating from a position
                           of ignorance.  Your argument is
                           inconsistent with passage of Prop 187, for
                           example.  Exactly what motivates opposition
                           to immigration if, as you describe, the net
                           benefit is positive? Let me guess, racism?
                           Even a cursory investigation
                           into crime, welfare, and hospitalization
                           statistics indicates you are wrong.  Do not
                           misconstrue this an indictment of all (il)legal
                           immigrants.  The question is do the TOTAL costs
                           outweight the benefits, not just if your maid,
                           gardner and pool boy are paid slave wages.
                           And guess who loses in this game, the working
                           poor already here.
                \_ Yea, I think those illegal immigrants are kind of dumb.
                   It sucks to be an illegal immigrant in the US.
                   \_ It sucks harder to stay where they came from. --dim
                      \_ It sucks even harder to squeeze into a tiny van
                         or ship or trek across the desert or cross the
                         ocean and risk death to get here to send
                         $3/hr to the family back home. No, it's
                         easier to stay home and die, but they arent
                         going to take the easy way out. Same as
                         it's been for hundreds of years.
                         \_ When your maid service dates back to 1986 you know
                            you're dealing with criminals.
2002/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:25887 Activity:high
9/13    'The latest police figures show that 76.5% of convicted rapists
        in Copenhagen belong to that 5% of the population [muslim immigrant]'
        Daniel Pipes refutes Socialist Danish Politicos defense of Muslim
        immigrants impact on Denmark
        \_ how is this url related to iraq?  i don't understand
2002/8/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:25676 Activity:high
8/24    What do you call it when the immigrants outnumber the natives?
        \_ Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and, of course, all of USA ;)
           \_ Everyone in Europe is from somewhere else.  There are no natives.
              \_ Perhaps you should make use of a dictionary and look up
                 'native' as it applies to this context.
                 \_ Perhaps you should stick your head in a pig you anal
                    retentive fuck.  And make use of a dictionary and look up
                    'anal retentive fuck' as it applies in this context.
           \_ go back far enough, and everyone on the planet (except maybe
              africa) is from somewhere else.
              \_ You *really* still believe that out-of-africa crap?  The
                 evidence doesn't support it.  Australia's timeline doesn't
                 fit at all and people were in N/S America before the ice
                 bridge formed.
                 \_ sorry, try again. ... and maybe read _Guns_Germs_and_
                    Steel_ first.
           \_ I think you miss the historical and political implications.
2002/6/26 [Science/Physics, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:25199 Activity:very high
6/25    http://www.baconanddear.com/imm-famous/2000-Noble-Prizes.php

        Almost half of the U.S. recipients of the 2000 Nobel Prizes
        were immigrants to the United States. In the fields of
        Physics, Chemistry and Physiology, three American immigrant
        scientists were rewarded for their outstanding achievements.

        According to a 1998 National Research Council Report, about
        a third of U.S. winners of the Nobel Prize were born outside
        of the U.S. Further, between 1901 and 1991, 44 of the 100
        Nobel Prizes awarded to U.S. researchers were won by immigrants
        or their children.
        \_ a large fraction of these are a very specific group of people:
           european jews who immigrated by way of the nyc area.  City College
           was a free school that did not have quotas on jews as did MIT,
           Harvard, etc in the 30's and 40's, and it produced an absurdly
           high number of nobel prizes for a free school no one had heard of.
           many factors combinded to make this incredible generation of
           scientists, but it was an oddity of history from which it
           is dangerous to draw general conclusions.
           \_ Don't bring facts into this.  H1b == Nobel winner!  Yeah!
        \_ They forgot to include relevant figures such as the percentage
           of the general US population that is 1st or 2nd generation
           \_ Currently, 1st and 2nd generations make up about 20 percent,
              about 10 percent for each.
              \_ Aha, but what about in 1901?
        \_ How many H1-B's?
        \_ I hope this isn't some bizarre attempt to say that since the feds
           go out of their way to import top scientists from around the world
           that H1b's are good too.  Just don't even go there, it's such a
           stupid comparison.  We *should* be stripping the rest of the world
           of their top scientists.  That's good for America.  It is *not*
           good for American to import hundreds of thousands of the poorly
           trained dregs so Cisco and Sun can pay dirt to foreigners while
           more highly skilled US citizens are collecting unemployment.
           \_ have you considered that you're either demanding too much money,
              or not as highly skilled as you think you are?
              \_ Excuse me but I'm fully employed.  You're trying to deflect
                 the point (poorly).  I'll spell it out for you again:  Buying
                 foreign Nobel quality scientists is good.  Buying low wage
                 low skilled workers to replace skilled Americans is not good.
                 H1b's are not Nobel winners.  Thanks for the cheap shot and
                 the weak rhetorical attack.  I suggest a few weeks in an
                 intro Rhetoric course.
                 \_ So you're not unemployed, just irrationally xenophobic?
                    \_ You're still ducking.  Thanks for playing, troll.
                       \_ I wasn't the original poster.  But, it is quite
                          clear from your ignorant statements that you are
                          quite xenophobic.  The original poster said nothing
                          about this article leading any proof to why H1-B
                          visa status is good.  He was just citing an example.
                          However, your blanket statement about all H1-B's
                          being untrained and and unfit for employment in the
                          U.S. is indicative of poor mental hygiene.  Go back
                          to Georgia, you hick.
                          \_ It was an obvious response to threads from
                             yesterday.  Not my fault if you weren't around.
                             Go find it in the archives instead of slinging
                             meaningless personal insults.  It's really easy
                             to scream "RACIST!" and dismiss someone entirely
                             without responding.  It shows "poor mental
                             hygiene".  It's always much harder to actually
                             respond intelligently, especially when you're not.
                             I'm done feeding you cookies, troll.
2002/6/26 [Computer/SW/Database, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:25196 Activity:high
6/25    Search the H-1B database, apparently there are 1,000,000+
        as of 3/12/2002
        \_ http://www.zazona.com
           "The promiscuous immigration programs for studies or work in
           the United States allow foreign terrorists easy passage into the
           United States. Given the tragic events of September 11, 2001, all
           nonimmigrant visas should be immediately halted in the interest
           of national security."
        \_ http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind00/c3/tt03-22.htm
2002/6/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Industry/Jobs] UID:25190 Activity:very high
6/24    How many of you feel victimized the same way for being a citizen?
        \_ It's happened to me.  I know for a fact I lost out on a job I was
           qualified for to an H1b only because he cost dirt to hire.  I know
           because a friend in HR told me flat out.  It happens and it's
           illegal.  They've done 4 rounds of layoffs since then anyway so
           fuck em.
           \_ Don't worry.  Those low-cost H1Bs won't be able to get a green
              card with their salary history and will have to leave the
              country soon.
              \_ yeah but in the curent shortage of job openings, it's not
                 going to help us unemployed/undeemployed folks NOW.
                 \_ If you want to get rid of them now, I guess you can sue
                    the company or report them to INS.  But then you'll have to
                    explain how you know the H1Bs' salaries since supposedly
                    it's confidential.
                    \_ If I had bothered to file a complaint I sure as hell
                       would have spilled it all if I had to.  Anyway, I don't
                       have to know what the H1b got, I just have to know they
                       hired the Aussie and not me and have them investigate.
                       I predict death by xmas anyway so I'm happy fate and
                       karma has taken care of it.
              \_ Yes, but their job will follow them out of the country.
                 Soon all the "high-tech" work will be done in India and
                 China by barely tech literate people (by Berkeley EECS
                 standards) for peanuts. Software is about to become a
                 commodity and the days of six figures (at least in dollars)
                 for coders will be over shortly.
                 \_ Nonsense.  And no I'm not a programmer so I'm not worried
                    or threatened by the possibility.
                 \_ Then you can exploit the holes in the software and make
                    \_ No, you can't, since the feds will come to your house
                       take your computers and lock you up for violating the
                        \_ DMCA?  That has nothing to do with anything. Sheesh.
                           If you're going to whine about the gub'ment, please
                           at least educate yourself about it.
        \_ Follow Rep. Tom Tancredo who is authoring H.R. 3222 to kill
           the H1-B program.  He is also an active opponent to illegal
           immigration (eg. Bush's 245i amnesty).  FWIW you can read
           about him, where else, but http://freerepublic.com
        \_ You're not victimized for being a citizen.  You're victimized for
           asking for a higher salary than those H1Bs.  This is not a case of
           discrimination.  Sun is "discriminating" against those getting
           higher salaries in favor of those getting lower salaries and doing
           the same jobs.  This is simply a business decision, not
           discrimination under law.  The real issue here should be whether
           or not those remaining H1Bs are getting below-market salaries,
           thus breaking the law.  That law relates to protecting US labor,
           not preventing discrimination.  -- former H1B
           \_ Last time I checked, these H1B workers are making way more
              than CA's minimal wage.  When is compensation below market
              average is breaking the law now?
              \_ I don't know when it started.  When my employer sponsered my
                 green card application six years ago, the lawyer had to do
                 some paperwork to quote several major salary surveys in this
                 area to prove that I was getting above-market salary.
           \_ No the real issue is whether companies should be allowed to
              import labor from the third world to replace citizens here.
              They're getting all the benefits of being an American company in
              the US but not paying their dues back to the country that makes
              their company's existence possible.  The answer is that they
              should not and are not legally allowed to hire an H1b to fill a
              job when there's an American available for the position.
2002/6/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:25143 Activity:moderate
6/18    I'm moving. Do I need to tell the IRS, DMV, etc? Is there any other
        agency I need to tell, like the FBI, etc?
        \_ mainly credit card bills, and if you are moving across State
           line, consider close bank accounts cuz each states has different
           law regulating banking which made my life relatively miserable.
           I have not figure out how to change address on subscribed magazine
           Everything else, including Victoria Secret's catalog, will
           eventually find you without your intervention.
        \_ Bills, credit cards, IRS, DMV, INS, Post office, friends,
           banks, brokerages...
           \_ I don't get anything from the INS, is this necessary?
           \_ And magazine subscriptions and medical insurer.  Also your
              employer so that they'll mail the W-2 to the new address.
              \_ All of my magazines got the new address automatically after
                 I filled out the change of address at the post office.
           \_ You don't have to tell the IRS now. Tell them when you file.
           \_ And don't forget to have your gas/electric/phone etc turned off
              at your old place!
           \_ And cancel all the free catalogs and other junk mail at the old
              \_ as if this can be done.  They'll leave it as "Or Current
                 Resident".  Spammers and junk mailers suck.
                 \_ Worked for me.  When I moved into my current house, I used
                    to get three or four junk catalogs under the previous
                    tenants' names in one day.  I called them up one by one to
                    cancel, and I also wrote to http://www.dma.org using the previous
                    tenants' names as well as my name.  Now the junk catalogs
                    are down to about one a week.
                    \_ that's http://www.the-dma.org
                       \_ Oops.
        \_ Don't forget your probation officer.
           \_ You can't move without his permission anyway.
        \_ and, of course, the selective service, if you're still of draft age
           \_ What's the draft age now?
              \_ I believe it's still 18-25.  Got yer gun or are all you
                 America-last types going to flee the country?
                 \_ Are green card holders subject to draft?
                    \- they were, but at "low priority". but this does seem
                       a little pecular since i believe "service in a foreign
                       military" is one of the grounds on which you can lose
                       your citizenship. --psb
                    \_ Deportation and imprisonment.
                    \_ Even *non* green card holders can be subjected to the
                       draft, and hence, in many cases, are required to
                       register with selective service.  Otherwise, you may
                       have problem if and when you decide to get your green
                       card or citizenship.  Doesn't make too much sense to me.
                       It's like American expatriates in say Singapore being
                       required to be drafted when there is a war in Singapore.
                       On the other hand, I doubt many people are worried
                       about being drafted in the US given it's low probability
                       and low death rate.  Why not be a "patriot" when
                       so little is at risk.
                       \_ Yeah, my being a pacifist pales in comparison to
                          the prospect of being unpatriotic.
                \_ You talk the talk, but have you walked the walk?
        \_ Megan's law requires you to register with your local law enforcement
           \_ heh
2002/5/12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:24799 Activity:very high
5/12    More unbiased reporting from the NYTimes
        "A Faulty Rethinking of the 2nd Amendment"
        ... observe the author get eviscerated
        \_ and the Free Republic is the last bastion of unbiased
           journalism, right? your act is getting so tiresome
                \_ Umm, there is no pretense of journalism on
                   Freerepublic - it is a message board where much
                   of what is published in the media is
                   critiqued.  But no worries, as taught at Berkeley
                   we all know conservatives are evil mean bigots.
                        \_ Being a Berkeley Liberal, I appreciate most
                           true conservative values: States Rights,
                           true Conservative values: States Rights,
                           conservative. However, yes, most conservative
                           Individual Freedom, and being Fiscally
                           Conservative. However, yes, most conservative
                           people I meet happen to be intolerant and mean.
                           \_ Most conservatives are pretty nice and
                              tolerant. It's just the ones in Berkeley
                              (and particularly those in CSUA) are wacko
                              nutcases and not very bright.
                              \_ as opposed to the leftist whacko nutcases
                                 of the CSUA?  a whacko nutcase who never
                                 leaves his computer terminal and has a
                                 god complex because he manages a unix
                                 cluster is a pain in the ass wether he
                                 reads Marx or Freeper.
        \_ did you kill a drifter to get an errection.
2002/5/10 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:24777 Activity:nil
5/9     http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1978000/1978472.stm
        Be a UN aid worker, have sex with refugees.
        \_ Old news.  Who didn't know the UN workers were raping refugees?
2002/4/24 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:24570 Activity:high
4/24    Algeria War 1954-1962 - Le Pen fought in this war
        BTW, judging by his platform this guy is worse than
        1000 Hitlers and Stalin combined.  From his website:
        -Outlaw abortion and end official recognition of same-sex unions
        -Develop programs to increase the birth rate and pay benefits
        to women who stay at home with their children.
        -End legal immigration.
        -Deport illegal immigrants and eliminate dual nationality.
        -Give French citizens priority for all jobs and public housing;
        create a separate medical benefits system for foreigners working
        in France, so that French tax money would not be used for
        foreigners' care.
        -Allow only French citizens to teach in French schools.
        -Reinstitute morality classes; require student participation
        in patriotic events and holidays.
        -Outlaw the wearing of yarmulkes and Muslim headscarves in schools.
        -Create 200,000 new prison beds.
        \_ Isn't this a cut and dry case of a fascist platform?
           \_ No. Not all of these are bad suggestions. There is nothing
              fascist about curtailing abortion to the point where it is
              no longer viable as a birth control mechanism. Likewise
              providing benefits to at home moms is a good idea.  There
              is also nothing fascist with getting rid of *ILLEGAL*
              immigrants and dual citizenship.
        \_ What's wrong with deporting illegal immirgrants???  Not everyone is
           crazy enough to provide education and medical care for someone
           breaking the law and cutting in front of legal immigrants.
              \_ abortion as birth control is a fallacy.
                 \_ So what is the point of freely accessible
                    abortion? I understand in why you would
                    want an abortion in rape, incest or if
                    the child was going to be severely
                    handicapped or the birth was goign to
                    kill the mother, etc. But other than
                    these legitimate medical reasons, why
                    do we need abortion?
        \_ What's wrong with deporting illegal immirgrants???  Not
           everyone is crazy enough to provide education and medical
           care for someone breaking the law and cutting in front of
           legal immigrants.
           \_ Did you just glaze over the line above that?
              "-End legal immigration."
              \_ Where is it written that a country should allow
                 in foreigners? (There is a difference between
                 this statement and "Deport all immigrants")
                 Just because he wants to end legal immigration
                 doesn't make him a fascist.
        \_ Wait, isn't that guy in the Whitehouse?
           \_ Duh.  Yet another agenda-driven blind idiot mouthing off
              cluelessly about things he knows nothing about.  W's agenda is
              *VERY* *PRO* immigration.  Where the hell have you been?  Get
              out of your closed minded little ivory tower and read a news-
              paper once a year.
              \_ Exactly how is he pro immigration.  get your head out of
                 the republican think tank.
        \_ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1945000/1945044.stm
           look at the bottom, nearly 10% of the stinking French are commies!
        \_ How is any of this ridiculous shit on the same level as MURDERING
           with the power of the State *MILLIONS* of innocent people?  You're
           incredibly lame.  I'm so sick and tired of third rate wannabe
           intellectuals calling everyone who has a different agenda a Hitler
           or a Stalin.  You only weaken your statement with noise like that,
           not strengthen them.  It's like the ultra feminists who think every
           man is a rapist.  No one can take a statement like yours seriously.
                \_ was sarcasm!  BTW headscarves and Marms are already
                   outlawed by statute, just not enforced.
2002/4/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:24469 Activity:very high
4/17    http://www.latimes.com/news/yahoo/la-000027381apr17.story?coll=la%2Dnewsaol%2Dheadlines
        Why the immigrants are kicking your ass academically and why your
        kids are going to community college instead of the U.C. (hint: those
        immigrants prepare for the SAT as early as kindergarten)
        \_ I prepared for the SAT for exactly 1 evening.
        \_ I prepared for the SAT for exactly 1 evening, but then I was
           a foreign student, not an immigrant.  My immigrant cousins
           prepared quite a bit - The older one is very bright but doesn't
           like to study.  She got 1400s, went to Irvine, but dropped out
           after a year for getting a bunch of bad grades.  She is now
           at a community college.  She could still achieve great things if
           she puts her mind to it.  Her brother got a 1100 on first-try and
           1000 on second-try, but he is a very good kid, has lots of friends,
           and plays a mean game of basketball. So much for the stereotypes.
           \_ Prepared?  I just went and took it...
        \_ If you feel your ass is getting kicked, you have no one to blame
           but yourself.
        \_ You can't "prepare" for the SAT in kindergaten.  Don't be lame.
           \_ Sure you can, it's called paying attention and learning to
              think.  Ideally it should continue until you die
        \_ The SAT and HS are so damn easy its not even funny, its just like
           the Farm, you get decent grades for showing up, turning your hw
           and taking all the tests.
        \_ SAT actually is to the advantage of smart but lazy people.
           \_ Yes!  Let's hear it for the smart and lazy people!  Too bad that
              once you get into Cal its all about hard work and near zero to
              do with smart.  Sigh....
              \_ Amazing..  almost like the real world..  Only there, it's
                 exactly zero to do with smart.
                 \_ What do you do, software sales? Where I work, how
                    fast you learn things (i.e. how smart you are) is
                    pretty important.
        \_ Immigrants and foreign students from non-English-speaking countries
           have a disadvantage on the Verbal Test.
2002/3/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:24274 Activity:high
3/30    Liberal - a euphemism for vote buying.
        \_ I object to the misuse of the word 'liberal' which traditionally
           has meant "open minded".  If you mean Left or Democrat or Socialist
           or whatever, just say so.  Waitress at the Oakland Zachary's with
           the shortish blue hair has a great set.  Just thought you should
           \_ I think he means "liberal" in the political meaning.  That
              started out as "more willing to spend money" and has lately
              come to mean very little.  Contrast "conservative" that
              started out as "less willing to spend money" but now means
              something like "Jingoism".  I can't get to Zach's anymore
              but the Mountain View Hobbee's has a couple lookers.
           \_ Then go ask her out.
              \_ Just because shes got doesnt mean need to ask her out.
                 Anyways I've felt what she's got and not OP.
2002/2/11 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:23834 Activity:nil
        First they came for the Communists and I didn't speak
        up because I wasn't a Communist.
        Then they came for the Jews, and I didn''t speak up
        because I wasn't a Jew.
        Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't
        speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
        Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up
        because I was a Protestant.
        Then they came for me, but by that time, no one was
        left to speak up.
        --Pastor Martin Niemoeller, Nazi Germany
        We call on people everywhere to participate in a
        National Day of Solidarity with Muslim, Arab and South
        Asian Immigrants. The words of Pastor Niemoeller spell
        out the challenge facing all of us as people who seek
        justice and a better world. This time, first they are
        coming for the Arab, Muslim and South Asian
        immigrants. Based on their racial profile, over 1500
        have been rounded up and the government refuses to say
        who they are, where they are jailed and what the
        charges are!!! Already, a Pakistani man has died in
        custody. Who will be next? The recent
        "disappearances", indefinite detention, the round-ups,
        the secret military tribunals, the denial of legal
        representation, evidence kept a secret from the
        accused, the denial of any due process for Arab,
        Muslim, South Asians and others, have chilling
        similarities to a police state. We will not allow our
        grief for the tragedy of September 11 to be used to
        justify this new repression. We are clear that being
        an immigrant is not a crime, Muslims, Arabs and South
        Asians are not terrorists.
        120,000 Japanese-Americans and Japanese immigrants
        were rounded up and put in concentration camps during
        World War II. Only after 50 years had passed did the
        U.S. government acknowledge that injustice. Let us
        work together to build a hospitable community for
        immigrants and refugees by resisting and stopping
        these new injustices now. Human life is more important
        than unjust laws. Join with people across the United
        States in observing a National Day of Solidarity.
        Stand together with Muslim, Arab and South Asian
        immigrants on February 20, 2002. It is only the voice
        and action of the people that can STOP these attacks
        and assure freedom and justice for all.
        On February 20 wear a blue triangle with the name of
        one of the newly "disappeared". In the early 1940''s,
        German Nazis used many different colored triangles to
        categorize and divide people in the concentration
        camps. We will not allow the same kind of profiling to
        happen here. We will wear a blue triangle in a
        positive way to show our solidarity with those being
        targeted today.
        Find the ways to express your solidarity: churches,
        synagogues, unions and schools provide sanctuary for
        the persecuted; organize a vigil or demonstration at a
        local INS detention center; hold a teach in at your
        local school, college, or university; call your
        political representatives and demand that these
        outrages cease; organize a poetry SLAM or a music
        show; write a letter to your local newspaper calling
        for justice for all; students demand that your
        colleges or universities not turn over the files of
        immigrant students to the government; contact local tv
        and radio talk shows asking to be part of the program;
        sponsor a "Meet the Immigrant" educational and
        cultural event so they can tell their stories.
        Remember the tragedy of Nazi Germany when so many
        looked the other way as their neighbors were
        disappeared, persecuted and stripped of their civil
        liberties. What would you have done then? What will
        you do now?
        Initial Signatories:
        American Civil Liberties Union of Texas .. Amnesty
        International, University of St. Thomas Chapter,
        Houston, TX .. Anarchist Action of Rochester, NY ..
        Asian-American Legal Defense Education Fund, New York,
        NY .. Asians for Mumia/Jericho .. Dave Atwood, Pax
        Christi*, Houston, TX .. Black Radical Congress  New
        York Metro .. Bob Buzzanco, Professor of History,
        University of Houston* .. Church World Service
        Immigration and Refugee Program o Jack Elder, San
        Antonio, TX .. Esperanza Peace and Justice Center, San
        Antonio, TX .. Filipino Workers Center, New York, NY
        .. Fremont Peace Action, Fremont, CA .. Georgia
        Coalition for Peace .. Harris County Green Party,
        Houston, TX .. Haitian Coalition, New York, NY ..
        Hayward Peace and Justice Coalition, Hayward, CA ..
        Houston A.N.S.W.E.R. (Act Now to Stop War and End
        Racism) .. Houston Coalition for Justice Not War
        (HCJNW) .. INS Watch, San Francisco, CA ..
        International Concerned Family and Friends of Mumia
        Abu-Jamal .. Korean Immigrant Workers Advocates
        (KIWA), Los Angeles, CA .. Miguel Maldonado, Immigrant
        Workers Association, New York, NY .. Travis Morales,
        La Resistencia National Council, Houston, TX .. Muslim
        American Society .. National Action Network .. October
        22 Coalition to Stop Police Brutality, Repression, and
        the Criminalization of a Generation .. Peace and
        Freedom Party, San Diego Chapter (CA) .. Progressive
        Workers Organizing Committee of Galveston County, TX
        .. Queers for Racial and Economic Justice, New York,
        NY .. La Raza Centro Legal, San Francisco, CA ..
        Refuse and Resist! o La Resistencia .. Herbert B.
        Rothschild Jr., Coordinator, Peace Action* - Greater
        Houston .. San Francisco Day Laborers Program, San
        Francisco, CA .. Dr. David Michael Smith, Assistant
        Professor of Government, College of the Mainland*,
        Texas City, TX .. South Asian League of Artists in
        America (SALAAM) .. South Asians Against Police
        Brutality and Racism, New York, NY .. Southwest
        Alliance to Resist Militarization (S.W.A.R.M.),
        Tucson, AZ .. Students Against a Violent Earth (SAVE),
        Southwest Texas State University* .. United Muslim
        Americans Association (UMAA) .. Universal School,
        Bridgeview, IL .. Vietnam Veteran Against the War
        Anti-Imperialist .. David Wong Support Committee, New
        York, NY .. Juanita Young, mother of Michael Ferguson
        killed by NYPD .. Howard Zinn (*For identification
        purposes only)
        Please endorse this call & distribute, post & publish
        everywhere! Funds are quickly needed to organize for
        February 20. We urge you to immediately send
        donations. All actions on February 20 should be
        publicized and popularized. Write, e-mail or call the
        La Resistencia National Office with news of activities
        in your area: P.O. Box 2823, Houston, TX 77252-2823;
        (713) 521-3099; laresistencia@laresistencia.org
2001/12/6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:23160 Activity:high
12/5    Snowboard gears: step-in vs. strap bindings
        Which is better?
        \_ Consider Flow bindings (<DEAD>www.flow.com<DEAD>  They don't have the problem
           of clogging with snow, or wearing out (like clickers), nor do
           they take an age to put on (strap-ins) and they give a LOT
           of hold.  <DEAD>www.flow.com<DEAD>   -John
        \_ I've had switch binding for 5 years and am about to replace them
           with a good set of strap bindings. I have yet to be able to
           get the strap settings to give me a good tight ride without
           causing circulation problems in my calves.
        \_ My general rule of thumb is use step-ins for free-riding and
           straps for free-style.  Straps allow for more flexibility while
           step-ins are more rigid.
                \_ I'd say the opposite. Strap-ins hold you in much
                   more securely than do step-ins.
        \_ I've got a strap-on set that can give you a good tight ride.
        \_ Only posers use step-ins, sorry to say.
        \_ I can't stand step-ins. I've had strap bindings for the last
           10 years and have never found step-ins that work as well. I
           spent one winter in Tahoe giving snowboarding lessons and the
           rental shop that year rented step-ins... all the students would
           come in using them and constantly have problems with them
           getting clogged up with snow and ice and not clicking in exactly
           right and just being a general pain in the ass.      -rory
           \_ Bet they were K2 Clickers and not Switch.
        \_ I have K2 Clickers.  I have no problems clicking in on dry days.
           But it can get clogged up on powder snow.  Overall, it's very
           convenient to click in and out of the binding.
        \_ To all the step-in haters... the new generation of step-ins is
           significantly revised. They no longer have a nasty bar in your
           boot to restrict your riding, but have a high-back similar to
           strap ins. That said, if you're serious at all, you go with strapin.
           And if you're buying a board, you're either rich (in which case
           you can buy strap ins later) or you want to be serious, so you
           should buy strapins.
2001/11/29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:23135 Activity:nil
1/28    If you are stopped and question by the police, INS or FBI:
2001/9/9 [Recreation/Sports, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:22358 Activity:high
9/9     wow, now i've seen everything:
                            \_ http://goatse.cx
        motorola vs. the NBA.
        \_ Actually it was the NBA vs. Motorola, and it was news 5 years ago.
2001/8/17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:22154 Activity:high
8/17    Apparently a liberal immigration policy doesn't seem to work:
        \_ written by phyllis schlafly... hmm... must resist...
           responding to troll.... will... fading...rapidly...
        \_ Look either immigrants come or capital leaves. Take your pick.
2001/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Computer/SW/OS] UID:21830 Activity:moderate
7/17    http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=203267

        For example, it can identify those Web sites whose audiences are
        most tilted toward Asian-Americans. Many will be surprised to
        learn that, leaving aside domains specifically aimed at
        immigrants or Asians, the most Asian-oriented general interest
        site is http://StreetRacing.org. Its visitors are 25.1 percent
        Asian-Americans, even though Asians make up only 4.6 percent of
        online Americans.  Other hot-rod Web sites with audiences that
        are highly Asian include http://SuperCars.net, http://Acura.com and
        \_ "surprised"...
        \_ obvious , to make for their lack in size..
           \_ which MF red-neck soon-to-be-dead hairy whitey wrote this?
              \_ defensive, are we? sensitive issue? seek therapy.
        \_ And if you still don't think the author is a moron...
             "After my wife and I spent 15 enjoyable minutes at
             http://CastleMountains.net looking at pictures of cute babies and
             funny monkeys and trying to answer riddles about fruit
             ('Q. Why did the melon get married in a church? A. She
             can't elope!'), she said, 'Maybe people with graduate
             degrees just don't know about these sites.'"
2001/6/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21553 Activity:insanely high
6/17    If you're concerned about competing for jobs with H1B visa
        recipients, consider writing your Congresspeople and president.
        The economy sucks right now and companies are hiring H1B people
        instead of recent grads or recent layoff-ees.
                \_ Actually, most high-tech companies just plain aren't
                   hiring anyone right now.  Plenty of openings in fast-food
                   & retail though, and they can't hire H1-B's.
        You can find addresses for some senators/congressmen/president in
        ~peterm/Addresses.  Get your friends to write, too.  --PeterM
        \_ I didn't have you pegged as a xenophobe, peterm.  -tom
          \_ I deny being xenophobic.  The rationalization for H1Bs
             was always that companies couldn't fill positions.
             I know plenty of people who can't find jobs now.
             The time for H1B's has ended, for now.  I'm happy to
             have them all back when the economy improves.  Also,
             I have no objection to IMMIGRATION.  But this half-assed
             H1B serfdom is perverting the market.--PeterM
             \_ This is a logical fallacy: "X is a better solution,
                so we should oppose Y."  I don't see you writing letters to
                congresspeople telling them to relax immigration laws, and
                it's highly unlikely in the current political climate that
                immigration laws will change at all.  So getting rid of
                H1B's is equivalent to "getting rid of those damn furriners
                who are taking 'our' jobs", as if we have more of a right
                to those jobs because of where we were born.  Do you buy
                anything electronic?  Ride a Taiwanese bike?  "American"
                jobs have been farmed out to furriners who will work for
                less for many years.  Now that it's happening (on a very
                small scale) to rich white guys, it's suddenly a problem.
                Boo fuckin' hoo.  -tom
                \_ Wow, I agree with tom, for once.  Open borders, all the way.
                \_ I drive a japanese car.  Open borders all the way.
                \_ Yes let's just distribute everything equally to everyone in
                   the world! Why should I have more than the overcrowded
                   destitute multitudes! We should all live like that! Think
                   how efficient it will be having dense cities of hard workers
                   with mass transit and solar panels and windmills on all the
                   roofs! Ah, it brings a tear to my eye. Viva la revalucion!
                   \_ who said anything about distribution?  we're talking
                      about letting your vaunted free market decide who
                      gets the money.  Oh I forgot, you only like the free
                      market when it benefits rich white males.  -tom
                      \_ "why are you bashing white males like everyone else,
                          tom?  it it because it's the right thing to do?"
                          "no, but it's quicker...easier...more seductive
                   if that's the question.  -tom
                          than coming up with a real answer"
                          \_ uh, a real answer to what?  -tom
        \_ It's pretty easy to work at a University job and say being
           against H1B Visa's is an example of xenophobia.  Try
           competing in the open market where you are up against H1B
           people who claim to be able to do your job for 1/3 the pay
                 \_ Immigration is very necessary to a strong economy. For
           and see how pro H1B you end up being.  The result is that
           the market gets flooded, wages go down, and you've turned
           California into the traffic congested, out of energy mess
           it is today.  -ax
           \_ It's trivial to compete if you are smart.  Are you smart, ax?
           \_ It's easy to sit around in a job with artifically high
              wages created by an artificially constrained supply of
              workers and then complain when the party's over.  -tom
              \_ Are you prepared to give up your Cal job to an H1B
                 Visa holder who will do it for less money than you and put
                 your money where your mouth is?  -ax
                \_ I don't feel I have anything to fear from H1B visa holders,
                   which is the relevant question.  -tom
           \_ let me get this straight.  are you seriously blaming
              immigrants for the energy crisis in california?
              \_ 25% of the people in California are not citizens.
                 We're about 25% short on power.  See an easy solution
                 to this math problem?  The population of the US
                 only grows because of immigration. -ax
                 \_ Immigration is very necessary for a strong economy. For
                    example, the Japanese have priced themselves out of
                    many job markets, but they refuse to allow Koreans
                    and others willing to work those jobs into Japan. The
                    end result is that the Japanese economy is stagnant
                    even though the net worth of an average Japanese is
                    $450,000. --dim
                        \_ and the US, specifically, is forecast to have
                           growing need for immigrant labor for precisely
                           this reason.  Guess ax will just stop eating
                           grapes.  -tom
                 \_ I'm sure a lot of those non-citizens are illegal immigrants
                    from places like Mexico.  How much electricity do you think
                    they use?  Electricity use is not evenly distributed among
                    the populace.  Let's not forget that a lot of the power
                    consumption is from businesses (server farms, etc.).
        \_ If a company is dumb enough to hire someone less qualified
           (and believe me, there are a lot) then they should have the
           right to. But I don't think being an H1Ber has any bearing
           on your qualifications (or your lack thereof) or your likely-
           hood of being hired. Actually, you're probably less likely
           because managers would rather not go through the hassle of
           dealing with an H1B applicant. As for my experience, I had
           to work with 2 NCGs, one of which had an H1B. I found the
                          \_ ??
                             \_ new college graduate. -tom
           American citizen utterly incompetent but the guy on H1B to
           be qualified.
        \_ from a companies point of view, H1B's can be good -- they tend
           to get locked to a company 3-6 years at a time.
           Also, do you have more objective proof of some of the annecdotes
           you offer?
           \_ Of course it is good for companies. Wouldn't you want
              an employee you could underpay, overwork, and have thrown
           \_ Shut up, Paolo.
              out of the country for any reason whatsover?
        \_ PeterM, immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. Without
           the cheap Indian and Chinese workers the hi-tech industry wouldn't
           have boomed the way before. Also without the cheap Mexican and
           negros you'd have to pay $10 per nugget. Immigrants are good.
        \_ If that argument were true, the economy would be booming beyond
           belief now since we have more cheap labor than ever.  -ax
           \_ You are right.  We needed the foreign labor then.  Now,
              we don't, and citizens have to compete with non-citizens
              who cannot compete fairly in the job market because they
              are hindered by red tape.  IF WE WANT FOREIGN WORKERS
              MAKE THEM CITIZENS INSTEAD OF H1Bs.  No more H1Bs.  Either
              FULL citizenship or GET THEM OUT.  --PeterM
              \_ what about green cards?
                \_ Those with green cards don't have to have an employer to
                   stay in the country, right?  Their bargaining position is
                   equal to a citizen's, then, and they won't pervert the
                   labor market, as much, or at all.  --PeterM
                   \_ along similar lines, why not support labor laws
                      requiring businesses to pay H1Bs fair market wages?
                      just curious --erikred
              \_ I wouldn't make a statement as strong as "FULL
                 citizenship or GET THEM OUT", but I would say that
                 if there are temporary work visas for foreigners, the
                 foreign workers should have the same privledges as
                 citizens/permanant residents.  This would be more
                 fair to both citizens and to the foreign workers.  In the
                 current law, the people who benefit are big corporations --
                 they can hire H1B applicants for less money and it is a
                 pain in the ass for H1B applicants to switch to a new
                 employeer.  Both the citizens/prem. residents and H1B
                 holders get screwed in this deal.
        \_ I say throw the illegal immigrants in vats of boiling oil
           and tape it, then show the tape on HBO. This will send
           a message to the rest of the world that we are bad-ass
        \_ They just upped the number of visas. By the time you get
           congress to change the laws back, we'll start needing them
           foreign workers again. Congress must think we are nuts out here
           in California -- we WANT H1B's, we DO NOT WANT H1B's. we WANT,
           we DO NOT WANT...Make up your friggin mind. In good or bad economy
           the labor arguments: "H1B serfdom is perverting the market"
           (peter M) still apply, so why now? friggin idiots you should have
           thought about this before you let them up it in the first place.
           \_ Hey, I have always been against HB1B visas and have even
              gotten friends of mine to write stories in the Examiner
              and Chronicle outlining the dangers (this was years ago,
              btw, way before the bubble popped). It is easy to mouth off
              on the motd, but a bit harder to actually go out and do
              something about it. Now that the cat it out of the bag,
              so to speak, I think we have an obligation to give full
              citizenship to the HB1B visa holders (and the inevitable
              25 relatives they will want to bring over). But I still
              think we should cut off the indentured servitude program. -ausman
        \_ Give me concrete proof that companies are hiring more H1B visa
           holders right now -- my experience is that most companies are
           passing over candidates with H1Bs and favoring either green
           card holders or citizens in this current market.  Most of the hiring
           managers I run into don't want to wait for any sort of visa
           processing and feel they can find someone immediately available
           under the current job market conditions. --chris
           \- you know this is pretty interesting to read. i think it is a
           good example of moral reasoning not coming from intuition. --psb
                \- i fwd this to my liberal indian activist friends. they
                will soon be picketing sloda now they are done with that
                pederast reddy. well at least you guys will be able to check
                out some hot indian women. tom might even get some for leading
                the good fight. ok tnx. --psb
                  \_ I've "got some," tnx.  -tom
                \_ Your liberal indian friends need to be shipped back to
                   India, where the victory of socialism has already been
                   achieved.  They will have nothing to picket there, they
                   ll just slowly starve to death.
2001/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21548 Activity:insanely high
6/17/2001  If you're concerned about competing for jobs with H1B visa
           recipients, consider writing your Congresspeople and president.
           The economy sucks right now and companies are hiring H1B people
           instead of recent grads or recent layoff-ees.
           You can find addresses for some senators/congressmen/president in
           ~peterm/Addresses.  Get your friends to write, too.  --PeterM
           \_ I didn't have you pegged as a xenophobe, peterm.  -tom
             \_ I deny being xenophobic.  The rationalization for H1Bs
                was always that companies couldn't fill positions.
                I know plenty of people who can't find jobs now.
                The time for H1B's has ended, for now.  I'm happy to
                have them all back when the economy improves.  Also,
                I have no objection to IMMIGRATION.  But this half-assed
                H1B serfdom is perverting the market.--PeterM
           \_ It's pretty easy to work at a University job and say being
              against H1B Visa's is an example of xenophobia.  Try
              competing in the open market where you are up against H1B
              people who claim to be able to do your job for 1/3 the pay
              and see how pro H1B you end up being.  The result is that
              the market gets flooded, wages go down, and you've turned
              California into the traffic congested, out of energy mess
              it is today.  -ax
              \_ It's easy to sit around in a job with artifically high
                 wages created by an artificially constrained supply of
                 workers and then complain when the party's over.  -tom
              \_ let me get this straight.  are you seriously blaming
                 immigrants for the energy crisis in california?
           \_ If a company is dumb enough to hire someone less qualified
              (and believe me, there are a lot) then they should have the
              right to. But I don't think being an H1Ber has any bearing
              on your qualifications (or your lack thereof) or your likely-
              hood of being hired. Actually, you're probably less likely
              because managers would rather not go through the hassle of
              dealing with an H1B applicant. As for my experience, I had
              to work with 2 NCGs, one of which had an H1B. I found the
                              \_ ??
                                \_ new college graduate. -tom
              American citizen utterly incompetent but the guy on H1B to
              be qualified.
          \_ from a companies point of view, H1B's can be good -- they tend
             to get locked to a company 3-6 years at a time.
             Also, do you have more objective proof of some of the annecdotes
             you offer?
             \_ Of course it is good for companies. Wouldn't you want
                an employee you could underpay, overwork, and have thrown
                out of the country for any reason whatsover?
        \_ PeterM, immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. Without
           the cheap Indian and Chinese workers the hi-tech industry wouldn't
           have boomed the way before. Also without the cheap Mexican and
           negros you'd have to pay $10 per nugget. Immigrants are good.
           \_ You are right.  We needed the foreign labor then.  Now,
              we don't, and citizens have to compete with non-citizens
              who cannot compete fairly in the job market because they
              are hindered by red tape.  IF WE WANT FOREIGN WORKERS
              MAKE THEM CITIZENS INSTEAD OF H1Bs.  No more H1Bs.  Either
              FULL citizenship or GET THEM OUT.  --PeterM
              \_ what about green cards?
                \_ Those with green cards don't have to have an employer to stay
                   in the country, right?  Their bargaining position is
                   equal to a citizen's, then, and they won't pervert the
                   labor market, as much, or at all.  --PeterM

 /___\ /___\   |_|
| |_| | |_| ||_  |
| | | | | | | _| |
 \ _ / \ _ /___  |
  ___   ___ _____
  ____         _          _____                  _
 / ___| ___   | |_ ___   |_   _|____  ____ _ ___| |
| |  _ / _ \  | __/ _ \    | |/ _ \ \/ / _` / __| |
| |_| | (_) | | || (_) |   | |  __/>  < (_| \__ \_|
 \____|\___/   \__\___/    |_|\___/_/\_\__,_|___(_)
2001/5/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21367 Activity:insanely high
5/25    Russia introduced a flat tax of 13% last year.  Am I the only one who
        finds that ironic?  (Tax revenue was up 70% this year, btw).
        \_ Why is this ironic?  Econ 1A.
           \_ It's ironic because the former bastion of communism has learned
              the lessons of capitalism better than the United States has.
              \_ your argument will/would make more sense when and
                 if Russia becomes a place human beings actually
                 enjoy living in.  Do you read the newspaper?
                 Russia is a lawless hellhole.  The United States
                 is not (yet).
                 \_ Russia was never a place suitable for the enjoyment of
                    human beings.  It never will be.  What's that got to do
                    with it?  Are you trying to imply that the IRS is the
                    source of American prosperity?  Surely, you jest.
                    \_ what funds the government?  little fluffy
                       \_ You think the government is the source of American
                          prosperity?  Who cares what funds the government?
                          The government is not what makes this country great.
                          The government only holds us back from being even
                          greater.  Had some pork lately?  Pay your taxes like
                          a good little boy and run along.  Why do all you
                          lefties think the government is capable of improving
                          your life or anyone's life?
                          \_ GOVERNMENT IS AN EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL IDEA.
                             DOWN WITH AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!
                          \_ I haven't posted on this thread yet, but yes
                             I do think the government deserves a lot of
                             credit for our prosperity.  I came to this
                             country as an immigrint with nothing.  I was
                             able to attend excellent public schools from
                             grades 1-12 and then I received a scholarship
                             to the best public university in the world.
                             After graduating I was able to contribute
                             to a variety of companies some of which are
                             doing quite well.  Now I am in graduate school
                             supported by a fellowship.  A good deal of
                             our country's success in technology can be
                             traced to government programs like education
                             which take people like me who would otherwise
                             be flipping burgers due to lack of education
                             and turns them into scientists and engineers.
                             Although I would obviously prefer to pay less
                             taxes, I am happy to pay my taxes every year
                             because I'm grateful for the benefits I've
                             \_ PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL
                                THINGS. BANNISH PUBLIC SCHOOLS! IMMIGRANTS
                                AND IMMIGRATION ARE EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL
                                THINGS. BAN BOTH OF THEM!
                             \_ Amen, brother.
                             \_ Glad you got a piece of what me and so many
                                others have had sucked from their wallets for
                                so many years.  How much of my money goes
                                straight to welfare for the extended families
                                of immigrants who came here to do nothing with
                                themselves as opposed to the rare few who did
                                something useful such as yourself?  How about
                                _this_ story?  _Their_ taxes helped put _you_
                                through school.  Be ashamed.  And oh yeah...
                                "Amen, brother", but for them, not you.
                              \_ The American government has the ability
                                to enforce contracts and thus promotes much
                                legitimate commerce. This is because it has
                                a very strong judiciary and a credible
                                encforcement capacity. The Russian government
                                hasn't quite figured any of this out yet
                                and so is incapable of creating an environment
                                where people improve their own lives.
                                \_ INTERNATION RELATIONS ARE EVIL COMMIE
                                   LIBERAL THINGS. FUCK INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
                 \_ you are free to move to a nice place without
                    a legitimate government (or taxes)... like Angola.
                    \_ Nice strawman.  Could you explain the correlation in
                       your mind between taking 50% of my income and freedom
                       as a citizen?  Thank you.
                       \_ Who's taking 50% of your income?
                   \_ sure!  what do you think supports all your freedoms
                      in america?  harsh language?  the good will of
                      the people? I really do think we enjoy more freedom
                      in america than in other countries with near
                      anarchy and no taxes.   if you're trying to
                      argue that the progressive tax is wrong, that's
                      another argument, i will have to go do some reading.
                        \_ The government doesn't create freedom.  The US
                           Constitution does by *limiting the powers of the
                           Federal Government*.  The government, by it's very
                           nature restricts freedom.  And yes, the progressive
                           tax is wrong.  There's no reason to take a greater
                           percentage *and* a greater absolute amount from one
                           citizen and give it to another.  I support sales and
                           usage taxes (such as bridge tolls) which is a system
                           where only those using the service pay the tax.  I
                           am strongly opposed to any form of income tax.  The
                           progressive income tax is only one step shy of a
                           total confiscatory "tax".  I *really* don't like
                           hearing elected reps in federal government saying
                           "no one needs more than $X amount a year".  That's
                           none of their god damned business.  As if they'd
                           have a clue what a citizen needs anyway.  Career
                           politicians know nothing about the people.
              \_ When will people learn? Communism == mobilizing a nation's
                 economy through command-control pervasively controlling
                 every aspect of life, including thought and media (like
                 1984). Communism != tax. Communism is evil (at least to
                 Americans) because it violates the very principles of the
                 Bill of Rights but it has nothing to do with taxes.
                 \_ It seems like you might be confusing the philosophy with
                    an implementation of that philosophy....
                 \_ Communism is evil because communism is a slave system where
                    the government effectively owns the people.  The tax rate
                    is meaningless when you're owned by the state.
              \_ Nah.  They just read some basic econ books.  BTW, Feinstein
                 voted in favor of the miniscule Bush tax cut.
2001/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:21242 Activity:nil
5/10    do any of you know where to find out which european countries
        require to you have a visa to visit?  thanks for your help.
        \_ the motd usually works for me
        \_ first hit on google under "visa requirements":
           and the general answer for most of Europe excluding some of
           the former Soviet republics is "none". -- been there last summer
2001/1/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:20389 Activity:very high
1/20    http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=153630
        93% whitey sierra club turns away from basic math and simple logic
        in attempt to increase diversity of sc membership.
        \_ I've got an idea; let's make redneck cowardly trolls like
        \_ Let's just make anonymous cowardly redneck bigoted trolls like
        \_ [ tom noise deleted ]
                \_ Aw, don't do that, it can be so entertaining watching tom
                   spew, drool, and spittle.
        \_ [ vacuous tom noise deleted again ]
           reiffin move to Nebraska where they belong.  -tom
           [keep deleting this, reiffin, cowardice befits you]
                \_ Haven't deleted a thing, Tom.  Nice of you to think of
                   me, though.  Once again, Tom, to be a coward means I'd
                    \_ It's the motd, kid.  It happens.  Deal.
                   have to be afraid of something.  There *are* things in
                   the world I fear, but you're not one of them.  Try not
                   to do so much self important ego boosting at the expense
                   of people who haven't been online during the day to
                   "keep deleting this".  Try to get some facts, tom,
                   before you smear someone.  Or simply grow up.  -reiffin
                \_  deleting other people's cruft w/o signing your name
                    is lame.  --erikred
                    \- i imagine some respectable fraction of the sierra club
                    just wants to go hiking with non-scary looking people who
                    have similar tastes in music, wine and cheese, but
                    politically, the club elities are a bunch of hypocrites.
                    i have more regard for people like the nature conservancy
                    [i think that is the organization that puts its money
                    where its mouth is]. lets take an example from the above
                         The prestigious Sierra Club had announced in 1989
                         that its goal of zero population growth required
                         that "Immigration to the United States should be
                         no greater than that which will permit achievement
                         of population stabilization in the United States."
                    Gee, arent these the people who talk about how racist
                    republicans want to put themselves in gated communities
                    and put black men in state-run "gated communitites".
                    It kind of reminds of of berkeley liberals -- aka the
                    Chez Panisse crowd -- who have personal Beet and Carrot
                    Suppliers and help raise money for important social causes
                    like organic savory herb gardens at their child's private
                    school. Tom Wolfe redux. --psb
                        \_ The Sierra Club is bad in a lot of ways, but if
                           you read the article, it specifically is
                           complaining that the club changed the above policy,
                           and now doesn't have a policy on immigration. -tom
                        \_ But how else will my kids learn about fitting in
                           with Nature without destroying Her?  I don't
                           understand where you're going with this.
                        \_ Immigration as an environmental problem is a
                           canard.  The best way to control population is to
                           educate females; ethnic females in the US get
                           better education than they do in almost any other
                           country, thus immigration will lower the overall
                           population growth.  -tom
                           \_ Wow I am really out of touch. When did female
                              become an ethnicity? -sameer
                                \_ "females who are of ethnicities other
                                   than white."  Use your brain.  -tom
                                   \_ Being stupid I don't see how
                                      increasing immigration will lower
                                      population growth.  Perhaps you can
                                      explain to us morons, tom?
                                      \_ Dear morons: some maintain there
                                         is a correlation between higher
                                         education(like in the USA) and
                                         lower population growth, that's all
                                         \- i'm going to try to keep this to
                                the narrow point about education: many, many
                                studies have show there is a strong correlation
                                between female literacy and decrease in pop.
                                growth. a particularly interesting case is
                                to comp the indian state of kerela and china.
                                kerela's literacy-based approach led to a
                                greater decrease than china's quite drastic
                                "regulatory" approach. See work of Amartya
                                Sen among others. i suspect it is largely
                                the educated that are immigrating rather than
                                the ignorant finding themselves in america and
                                winding up better educated, so that attenuates
                                the claimed effect. anyway, i'll leave it at
                                that. --psb
                                         \_ But will everyone continue to get
                                            the same level of education if
                                            immigration continues at the
                                            current rates, or even grows?
                                            Like most things, education is
                                            a resource.  There are only so
                                            many teachers, classrooms, etc,
                                            to go around.  And why do women
                                            have to go to another country to
                                            get an education so they'll have
                                            fewer kids?  Isn't education one
                                            of the easier things to bring to
                                            people right where they already
                                            \_ Yes, but there are two points;
                                               one is that immigration is zero-
                                               sum from an environmental
                                               perspective (as opposed to a
                                               NIMBY perspective), and the
                                               other is that it's very likely
                                               the the specific act of
                                               emigrating to the US is likely
                                               to be an actual improvement.
                                               That's not saying it's wouldn't
                                               also be an improvement to have
                                               better education elsewhere. -tom
                                               \_ Zero sum would imply that an
                                                  American uses the same amount
                                                  of the world's resources as
                                                  the average immigrant. This
                                                  is not even close to true.
                                                  Even if you factor in the
                                                  next generation or so (which
                                                  is highly speculative. -ausman
                                                  American immigrant uses the
                                                  same amount of the world's
                                                  resources as he would have
                                                  had he stayed in his original
                                                  country. This is not even close
                                                  to true. -ausman
2000/11/17-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:19814 Activity:high
11/17   There are 260 million Americans.  Is a president who can spell,
        does well academically, is honest, has leadership abilities too
        much to ask for?
        \_ 1) Why does spelling count?  2) Why does GPA count?  3) Yes,
           because our political system is so dirty, very few honest men
           stand a chance of climbing that while yet remaining clean.
           \_ judging from your writing, i'd say you yourself come from
              a pretty fucked up country with horribly unjust politics. -ali
              \_ Name a country that is not f*ed up and has just politics.
                 \_ The president of Kirghizstan is a Ph.D. in physics, with
                    a sizeable amount of work in his field.
                 \_ In Red China we don't have these problems.  All men in
                    power are great leaders and are honest and academic.
                      \_ Yeah, they just shoot people they don't agree
                         \_ But they do it in a fair and nonpartisan manner.
                            They shoot *all* of the people that don't agree
                            with them.  Sounds pretty fair to me.
                            \_ Me Too. - ALGOR
                   \_ They also get any hootchie they want.
        \_ More like ~300 million.  Try counting the immigrants.
                \_ Don't use leftist terminology.  It's 270 or so million
                   citizens and legal residents and 30+ million illegal aliens
                   that are here in violation of the law.  Don't get sucked
                   into the nonsense which blurs the line between perfectly
                   acceptable legal immigration and other violating our
                   borders.  There is a big difference.
                   \_ slavery has been abolished, these aliens should
                      be freed and not held in bondage by the threat of
                        \_ If I wasn't sitting on the floor, I'd have fallen
                           off my chair laughing!  This is one of the best
                           trolls in a long 10+ days worth of trolls!  Yes!
                           No more borders!  One world government!  Oh! Please
                           stop!  It hurts to laugh so hard!  Thank you for
                           brightening my day.
                           \_ Ein Volk!  Ein Reich!  Ein Fuhrer!
                             \- 300M is too high. A little over 275M residents
                                in US [and about 210-220M guns]. --psb
                              \_ "One World, One Web, One Program"
2000/8/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:18883 Activity:very high
8/4     Aladdin and Jasmine seem like lovely characters, but why are most
        \_ racist and unintelligent discussion deleted. if you're going to
           bag on a race, stick with the mainstream and bag on the jews. -ali
           bag on a race, stick with the mainstream and bag on me. -ali
           \_ ali, its just a troll.  Obviously, each "group" has its
              good elements and its bad.
              \_ Yes, obviously. And your group's problem seems to be that
                 you don't understand what racism is and under what
                 circumstances it's dangerous. -ali.
                 \_ I didn't read the discussion.  Yes, racism exists and
                    it can be dangerous.
                 \_ and yet you decide to volunteer the jews above,
                    just because....?
        \_ look ali. I generally find middle eastern people hard to deal
           with. i don't know if it is their guy-must-be-macho culture or
           something. also i think it is funny that they like to call
           themselves Persian or something. Also Persian girls are ugly.
           Persian cats are prettier. It is just my personal opinion. Bye.
           \_ its my personal opinion that the middle eastern people I've
              dealt with are real cool, nice, friendly people.  This
              is my opinion too. - !ali and !middle_eastern
           \_ I find that Middle Eastern people are incredibly difficult
              to deal with. Guys are smarmy and women are high maintenance,
              although Persian girls can be damn hot. -- !ali && near_eastern
              \_ Like one of my firends, he like got mugged by this black
                 man once and you know that, like, all black people are
              \_ Like one of my firends, he like got mugged by this software
                 engineer once and you know that, like, all programmers are
                 criminal scum, and child molesters too.
                 \_ I'm basing this on hundreds of Middle Eastern people
                    that I know, not one.
           \_ the problem is exactly that you don't know why you have had
              the experiences you've had with those people. if you knew, then
              it would be ok for you to form an opinion of the form "people
              who have personality attribute X (ex, smarmy, egomaniacla, etc)
              get on my nerves." But you make some very unfounded leaps
              if at the end of the day you say "middle easterns are Y".
                \- something you people need to keep in mind is often you
                are seeing a narrow and biased crosssection of another society
                when you are dealing with immigrants. let's take indians ...
                there are a lot fo dumb indians in indian. there are a lot
                fewer dumb indians in the usa because so many are here because
                their parents are scholarship winners to study in the usa. a
                lot of iranians who "ran from iran" to avoid the fundamental-
                ist turn are from kind of a snobby part of society. i think
                you would get a very differnt "typical" sense of america if
                you met a group in the audience of the jerry springer show vs.
                a deb ball vs. the library of congress reading room. --psb
                \_ Oh yeah well the chinese everywhere are equally icky.
                   -- alice & chinese & that's just my personal and
                      expert opinion
                      \_ Russians are extremely fucking crude and annoying
                         for the most part.  -- ilyas
                      \_ I think that works out to 0 (bitwise, that is)
                \_ This is very true. But Middle Easterners are still quite
                   different from Westerners. The bargaining attitude is
                   in the blood.
                   \_ i am middle eastern. i don't have bargaining attitude.
                      the problem with your idiotic way of coming up with
                      conclusion is that it takes one counterexample to
                      leave you with no recourse.
2000/4/22-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:18084 Activity:high
4/22    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Cuban-Boy-Reconstruct.html

        Dalrymple scooped up Elian and retreated into a closet. ``Que esta
        pasando?'' Elian asked again. Agents banged on the bedroom door and
        entered. One Border Patrol agent, wearing goggles and a helmet,
        raised a rifle toward the two. His finger was not on the trigger.

        Dalrymple raised his elbow in defense. The agent grabbed Elian and
        took him. ``Bingo! Bingo!'' yelled another agent, signaling the
        mission's success.
      \_ Really fucking nice.  So much for due process, the law, precident,
         and justice.  Goodbye America, hello Amerika.
         \_ Really fucking nice indeed. I have just gained a lot more
            respect for our government than I had in a long time. Due
            process has passed. Custody has been decided a long time ago.
            They were holding the kid illegally and the father deserved
            to have his son back. Here's to a country that (on this
            one rare occasion) stood up for its principles, upheld its
            laws, in the face of a shitload of whining that could've
            pushed a lot of politicians the other way (and did)
            \_ A Florida Family Court judge decided the case waaay back
               when in favor of the Florida family but that didn't suit the
               Clintons, Reno, or the INS, so they decided to once again
               ignore the rule of law the rest of us have to follow and
               kidnapped the child from his legally appointed guardians.
               Not only did Reno's storm troopers not have a warrant to
               enter private property and kidnap a child, when they applied
               for a warrant to do so, it was *denied*.  I've just lost the
               last few shreds of respect I had for our government.  I
               never had respect for people unable to tell the truth from
               the spoon fed media noise, though.  Think!
                \_ Actually, they had a warrent...
            \_ BULLSHIT!  You're fucking lying or stupid.  Custody _had_
               been decided and it was given to THE FAMILY IN FLORIDA!
               I'm so sick of you lying, stinking, piece of shit, fact
               inventing leftist fucks!  YOU ARE LYING!
              \_ Sure, the law's, the law's, the law.  Let's not forget
                 that the mother and father had separated, and that the
                 mother's dying action was bringing her infant son to
                 America, away from the hated despot Castro.  Although
                 they will be soundly crushed in the courts, the Cuban
                 American community and some of the boy's relatives feel
                 that they have undertaken a holy mission to carry out the
                 mother's last wish to secure a better life for her child.
                 Unfortunately the technicality is that the separation was
               not too long ago, and the father seems like a reasonable
               guy, so he is thusly the automatic guardian.
               \_ Yeah, Castro's a Pinko Commie Bastard.  Communists will
                  eat your children, rape yermom, and hax0r your computers.
                  Have you ever actually seen or read a non-biased (i.e.
                  something not produced by an American media agency)
                  on what life in Cuba is actually like? -dans
                  \_ Don't forget the "re-education building" already built
                     for the boy in Cuba where he'll stay for several months
                     before the father sees him again.
                  \_ Actually, dans, you can ask any of the recent or
                     older Cuban expatriates.  Talking to a lot of them
                     is better than reading questionably unbiased material.
                     Also, notice how I didn't say anything about Cuba
                     being Communist?  In any case, your humor is a little
                     off base.
                     \_ Oh, yeah, Cuban expatriates are a nice, unbiased
                        source.  Of course they're not going to have anything
                        good to say.  They left.  They're not particularly
                        representative of the portion of the Cuban
                        population that's still there. -dans
      \_ Give 'em all guns, put 'em on boats, send 'em back to Cuba.  Only
         this time around, don't forget the goddamm air support.  -John
              \_ Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
2000/1/1 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:17142 Activity:nil
12/31   According to http://www.berkeley.edu as of 11:08 PM
        Most http://berkeley.edu links will
        not work during this time
        It seems as if most servers (including http://www.berkeley.edu are still
        online.  Even EECS Instructional.  I guess most campus administrators
        are not as idiotic as I thought.
1998/12/4 [Politics, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:15066 Activity:very high
12/3    How come Palestinians always want more land?
        \_  This is obviously a troll, but for the benifit of the history
        illiterate, I suggest you ask instead:
        How come the Iseralis always want more land?  After all, they were
        originally from Mesopotamia (Iraq).  Then they decided to grab
        the land from the Cannites and Philistines, whom they completely
        eradicated during war and conquest.  But they were in turn expelled by
        the Romans.  1000 years later,  they grabbed the land again from
           pardons.  What do you think of that?  (Think Amy Biehl)
        Palestanians who had been living there all those time, first through
        mass immigration and then with also outright military occupation and
        confiscation.  The Palestinians are of course losers.  If they failed
        to fend off the land robbers, they should just resign to their fate
        and become gypsies.  Victor be the strong and ruthless.  Terror
        prevails unless countered by greater terror.
|        \_ because they want to live free without foreigh rule
|           the real question, is why are they so intent (along with
|           Iraq, Lybia, Syria) on killing Jews?
|        \_ no a. but another q.:
|           Say that Israel/Palestinian-state commissions something similar
|           to S. Africa's Truth & Reconciliation Committee.  Now, say that
|           the TRC issues pardons in the same context that the SATRC issued
|           pardons.  What do you think of that?  (Think Amy Biehl, and of her
|           parents)

Amy Biehl was a Stanford graduate who left for S. Africa on a Fulbright
scholarship to help with voter registration in the nation's first all-race
1994 election marking the end of apartheid.  In the wrong place at the wrong
time, she was in the black township of Guguletu when an angry mob returning
from a political rally stoned her car, dragged her out, beat her, and killed
her.  At least one of her black compatriots attempted to defend her, telling
them that she was a friend.  Four people were convicted and sentenced to
18 years.  In July of this year, these four men were released from prison,
granted amnesty by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (as required by the
amnesty provision, they had fully confessed to the attack, including
the individual who committed the fatal stab wound).  Peter and Linda Biehl
of Newport Beach, CA, released a public statement supporting the commission's
decision, and have since regularly travelled to S. Africa to confirm to
passersby that they have truly forgiven their daughter's killers, and towards
fostering understanding between those who would be blood enemies.  Whether
each part of this story is right or wrong I don't say -- that you know that
each part happened and think about it is what's important.  When this
disappears, ~jctwu/pub/biehl.
1998/9/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:14542 Activity:moderate
9/3     Boredcast Message from soda!lwall () at 16:22 ...

        From: kchang@autobahn.org
        psb: your coworkers asian stupid "oh psb immigrants THE MAN! He knows
        Greek mythology asian stupid lila. He immigrants god."
        \_ Was there an English phrase in there?
           \_ Who cares about English. Was there ANYTHING comprehensible
              in any language in there.
        \_ Oh lord that was fun.  Squish me now, I've had my fun.
           \_ SHUT UP AARON
              \_ heheh..  foolish, arrogant mortal.
1998/4/30 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:14022 Activity:insanely high
4/30    So everything I saw in "Joy Luck Club" is true.  I just read
        the DailyCal today about "Asian Women Speak Up".
                \_ for those of us outside of no cal, what did it say?
                   \_ That doesn't have to stop you: http://www.dailycal.org
        \_ Good thing that you didn't sign your name, otherwise the "Asian
           Male Underground" would have to come by and work you over just
           like you were the men's bathroom in the basement of Dwinelle.
                \_ Clearly, one of us has a poor command of the English
                language. I take it correct usage of the English language
                is not a requirement for "Asian Male Underground."
                \_ And exactly what was gramatically incorrect with
                his statement, twink?
                 \_ Read it again with your second grade teacher nearby.
              of the windshield cause, OH WHAT A TURN ON!
                    She'll help you spot the difficulty and work on your
                    trouble areas.  She understands the special needs that
                    FOB students have.
                    \_ still don't see it
           \_ Yes, don't they do just the most fabulous work!? The AMU
              members have such a good eye; I think they should all be in
              either fashon design or interior design and ohmygod they are
              so-o-o hard and tough I just wanna take 'em home to mamma,
              they're so CUTE! Do you think they'll like me if I get a
              black Accura Integra with an <Oakland> decal across the top
              of the windshield cause, OH LORD WHAT A TURN ON! YES!!!
                \_ I have to say that you have a good eye. Nothing turns
           slightly abnormal behaviors people have mentioned above.
                me on more than the site of some Asian boy in a really
                expensive car his parents bought for him. I wonder if
                their mothers wipe their asses after they go to the
                \_ No.  Mom is there with the enema bag so they don't risk
                   falling in unsupervised.
        \_ Asian men have small penises in general.  this leads to the
           slightly abnormal behaviors people have mentioned above. -tom
           \_ cmlee, don't fucking sign my name to shit you write.  Not
              that you don't have a small penis.  -tom
        \_ No, it ignored a key "Joy Luck Club" component: _ALL_ immigrant
           Chinese mothers have to be suppressing some horribly traumatic
           incident in their past, like drowning their children, or watching
           _their_ mothers kill themselves after becoming somebody's concubine,
           or leaving behind a set of twins while fleeing from the Japanese
           during WWII.  The article didn't say _anything_ about that.
                \_ Part II, next week.
        \_ It's good to know that soda is still full of a bunch of fucking
        idiotic racist twinks who don't have the balls to sign what they
        write.  It's funny to realize how far exactly that white-trash
        mentality will get you in life, even if you're just a bunch of closet
        retards.                                  - mlee
        \_ Everyone is a racist one way or another. People in the 80s and 90s
           tend not to display their racism, that's all.
           P.S. tom is a true racist...
        \_ I dare you to come and say such racist things to my face,
           asshole - android
           \_ why the the image of achoi trying to threaten people
              make me smile? -aspo
1998/4/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:13993 Activity:moderate
4/21    Any opinions on <DEAD>jps.net<DEAD>? Do they suck?
        \_ They sucked donkeys as of a year ago. I dunno if they've improved
           service since.
           \_ They haven't.  They still suck.  -niloc
           \_ Actually, they now blow goats as well for a low annual fee
              \_ New, personalized sheep service soon! -- marketing@jps.net
           \_ They sucked donkeys? ewwww...
                \_ Do they charge extra to watch?
                \_ why do they suck? any specific bad things?
                   \_ if you have to ask you've oviously never tried it
                      contact the North American Man Donkey Love Association
                   \_ If you have to ask you've obviously never tried it
                      Contact the North American Man Donkey Love Association
                      (<DEAD>www.namdla.org<DEAD> for more information
                   \_ try 2 hour wait on tech support phone, dead air 50%
                      of the time on dial-ins, refused connections on
                      shell server and non-functional 56K support.
2021/12/08 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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