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| 12/24 |
| 2013/10/24-11/8 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:54745 Activity:nil |
9/30 http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-may-invented-lightsaber-152606868.html The URL says it all. |
| 2013/2/5-3/4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54598 Activity:nil |
2/5 http://www.csua.org/u/z5u (news.yahoo.com) "I hope no one uses the term 'illegal immigrants' here today," said Committee Ranking Member John Conyers of Michigan. "Our citizens are not illeg -- the people in this country are not illegal. They are out of status." How did this guy get himself on the House Judiciary Committee? Is it about justice or politics? No wonder people lose faith on our legal^H^H^H^H^Hstatus system. \_ Racist! Do you still use the terms negro and oriental? http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants \_ Which race does "illegal immigrants" refer to? -- OP \_ Latinos. \_ There are also lots of illegal immigrants from China where I came from. -- OP, legal immigrant \_ You might feel more welcome at Duke: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/duke-racist-rager-141248540.html \_ I hate Frats, they are biggots. Remember the Frat run company named Abercrombie? Two Wongs Make It White with racist images from WW2, without any apology from these frat boys? run company named Abercrombie? Two Wongs Make It White with racist images from WW2, without any apology from these frat boys? \_ What about Asian or Black frats? Are they racist too? |
| 2012/6/1-7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:54406 Activity:nil |
6/1 http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/05/what-matters-economic-mobility/2089/# |
| 2011/11/2-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54209 Activity:nil |
11/2 "NYC arrest records: Many Occupy Wall Street protesters live in luxury"
http://www.csua.org/u/uml (news.yahoo.com)
'Many "Occupy Wall Street" protesters arrested in New York City
"occupy" more luxurious homes than their "99 percent" rhetoric might
suggest, a Daily Caller investigation has found.'
\_ "Many"? How many? This is a classic weasel word.
\_ Sigh. RTA if you indeed care.
\_ Yeah, I read it. The answer is not there. $1,850/mo is not
much of a place in NYC, probably a studio or one bedroom.
\_ So I guess by "We are the 99 percent" they really mean "We
are the 99 percent of NYC".
\_ I am pretty sure even $1850/mo is still in the lower
99% of rents, though it might be in the top 50%.
\_ I'd protest if I weren't on the verge of poverty and working to
sustain myself! What a bullshit article.
\_ I'll bet some of them have phones, televisions and refrigerators
in their homes. Fat cats!
\_ Well, iPhones. |
| 2011/9/26-10/18 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54181 Activity:nil |
9/27 Where did suburb lover go?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Poverty-pervades-the-cnnm-893289229.html
\_ He defaulted on his underwater no-doc, no-down loan on his McMansion
and lives with his wife and three kids in his mom's basement.
\_ suburb lover is dim |
| 2011/3/5-4/20 [Politics/Foreign, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:54053 Activity:nil |
3/5 The hottest police chief in the world is now seeking asylum in the US:
http://www.csua.org/u/sor
\_ Police chief no more. She's fired. http://www.csua.org/u/spc |
| 2011/1/1-2/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:53977 Activity:nil |
1/1 US students indeed have worse scores on paper in PISA (Program for
Int'l Student Assessment) than those from Asian countries, but don't
blame our education system:
http://www.csua.org/u/s8a
\_ And yet US students make bajillions inventing things like credit
default swaps and a fake housing market. Life ain't the boy scouts.
\_ Those tests show who the good white collar slaves are; eg
"work hard, dont stop working, don't go home, stay at work
U B rich!"
\_ Ah if only the world actually rewarded work with pay linearly.
\_ Not very PC, but very interesting. |
| 2010/11/15-2011/1/13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53992 Activity:nil |
11/15 "CA Supreme Court ...... ruled that illegal immigrants are entitled to
the same tuition breaks offered to in-state high school students to
attend public colleges and universities."
http://www.csua.org/u/s0a
Not only do illigal immigrants enjoy the same benefits as citizens
(not to mention legal immigrants), they can actually enjoy more
benefits than some citizens.
\_ Classic variable mislabeling error: you're confusing
"citizens of the United States who reside in California" with
"citizens of the United States," and failing to distinguish
between "illegal immigrants who reside in California" and
"illegal immigrants." Also, you're confusing "citizen" and
"resident," as in "benefits of being a citizen of the United
States" versus "benefits of being a resident of California."
Of course, you could have avoided this confusion entirely by
simply writing, "Achtung! Papers, please!"
\_ I guess no UC funding comes from the Federal Government, right?
-- OP
\_ the clue is weak in this one |
| 12/24 |
| 2010/8/29-9/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53942 Activity:kinda low |
8/29 OC turning liberal, maybe there is hope for CA afterall:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/us/politics/30orange.html
\_ and the state is slowly turning conservative. Meg 2010!
\_ We will see. Seems unlikely.
\_ Yeah, because CA sure has a problem with not enough dems in power!
If only dems had been running the state for the last 40 years!
\_ Yes, if only they'd been running the state for the last 40
years without the GOP blocking every goddamn budget that
made sense. Blaming the party in power when you keep holding
them up is a shameful charade.
\_ CA is doing pretty well compared to most of the nation, believe
it or not.
\_ Big parts of OC (like Stabba Ana) turning into a barrio does
not bode well for California.
\_ Sure it does, immigrants have always revitalized America.
The newest wave is no different.
\_ So you think that the entire State becoming a slum except
for a few gated communities here and there is revitalization?
Previous immigrants had much different values than the
current immigrants do. I do agree that immigrants will
help run our economic engine so that we don't become a
dying nation like Japan, but the American standard-of-living
is taking a dive as all of these Third World immigrants
bring their Third World philosophies, diseases, and
values into our nation. I see a big difference between
Polish Jews, Irish, and even Chinese as compared to
immigrants from Africa and Central America - and I don't
mean skin color.
\_ "Third World philosophies, diseases, and values"
Er, WTF?
\_ Diseases like tuberculosis are making a reappearance
thanks to our new immigrant friends. Let's just say
that immigrants from Japan and immigrants from El
Salvador don't bring the same things to the table.
There are very large cultural and religious differences.
There are large differences in attitudes towards the
treatment of women, human rights, education, the role
of government, etc. It is part of the reason why
these countries are they way thay they are. If this is
these countries are the way they are. If this is
not obvious to you I won't waste my time explaining.
\_ You sound exactly like the Know Nothing bigots who
hated the Irish and Italians at the turn of the 19th
century. And the anti-Asian racists who had the
Japanese put in internment camps during WW-II.
The new immigrants will join American society just
fine and renew America with the integration of their
values with ours. This is especially true for Latin
American immigrants. I don't know who all these
African immigrants are that you claim are coming
to America, but America still has a problem with
race that needs working on.
\_ As you point out yourself, America has a problem
with race. It was much easier for Irish to
assimilate than it will be for Africans and
Latinos and this is one of the reasons (but
not the only reason) why.
\_ El Salvador? Are you nuts? The El Salvadoran
immigrant population mostly fled dictators and
death squads, and they're a hell of a lot more
committed to a free and democratic US than you
are. El Salvador is the way it is now because
WE, the US, supported dictators and death
squads. That's a matter of record. Look up
declassified documents on the CIA in El Salvador
in the 60s for more.
\_ Yes, El Salvador would be a First World nation
if not for US involvement in their affairs.
Riiiiight.
\_ Diseases like tb are making a resurgence because
we have a failing health care system. Poor folks
can't afford to get immunized, and rich folks
are buying up Cipro-- and then not using the
right doses to kill whatever bugs they do have,
resulting in drug-resistant strains of tb. Also,
do you know what you have to do to get a visa
in the US? Get a raft of shots and medical
exams. As for illegals, haven't you been
reading that illegal immigrants have been
returning to their countries of origins in
record numbers? If any of this is not obvious
to you, please, by all means, ask for more
explanation.
\_ Yeah, soon there won't be any illegal immigrants
left here. You know, I have a bridge for sale
you might be interested in. |
| 2010/6/11-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:53858 Activity:nil |
6/9 Terrorism and immigraion-- these are our priorities!
http://www.gallup.com/poll/139385/federal-debt-terrorism-considered-top-threats.aspx |
| 2010/5/17-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Recreation/Sports] UID:53829 Activity:nil |
5/17 L.A. is now officially a pro-illegal-immigrant city.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1989448,00.html
\_ You are now officially an idiot.
\_ Ah the arm chair wisdom of someone who'd never been to LA. |
| 2010/3/29-4/14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:53763 Activity:nil |
3/29 http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100329/us_time/08599197588300 "Arabs, who would seem to have an even stronger race claim than Hispanics do, are trumpeting their own write-in campaign because the Census by default counts them as white ... Ironically, part of the problem is that Arab immigrants a century ago petitioned the Federal Government to be categorized as white to avoid discrimination." Which way do they want? \_ Shockingly, not all Arabs want the same thing. |
| 2009/11/17-30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53532 Activity:nil |
11/17 Illegal Immigration: There's an App for That
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/illegal_immigration_theres_an_app_for_that.php |
| 2009/9/14-21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:53361 Activity:nil |
9/14 Does anyone have the controversial book Bell Curve? I know
it has the political incorrect [and perhaps flawed] data that
shows certain race have higher IQ than other race and I'm
wondering how smart Russians are relative to white Americans
and East Orientals. I can't seem to Google for this information.
The only thing I got is the following:
http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/bellcurve.shtml#part3
\_ from the URL(book): "East Asians typically earn higher
IQ scores than white Americans, especially in the verbal
intelligence areas."
I beg to differ. Almost all of my East Asian TAs I had at
Cal had very very low communication skills."
\_ "White Americans" are not a race. Most are a mixture of all sorts
of ethnicities. For instance, many more people have Jewish
blood in them that you would think. The populace is pretty far from
its English origins.
\_ Bell Curve said that intellegence is in this order:
1) Jews
2) Orientals
3) White Europeans
4) Mongrel races (Mexicans, Arabs, etc)
5) Mud people (Negroids, Australoids)
Not sure where Russians fit in here, probably 3, but maybe 4.
\_ How about the Persians since they're not Arabs?
\_ Based on what I read on publications with a bunch of east European
and Russian-sounding last names, Russians and Jews tie.
\_ When did Adolf get a Soda account?
\_ Here is my personal un-proven belief:
- Intelligence is correlated with individual's genetics.
- Ingelligence is not correlated with race's genetics.
- In general, culture is correlated with race. Within the US, this
is still true among first-generation immigrants, but to a lesser
extent among later generations.
- How hard-working you are is correlated with culture.
- Income is correlated with intelligence.
- Net worth is NOT correlated with intelligence.
- One's "achievement" or social status is correlated (among other
things) more with net worth than with income.
- Chance of immigration to the US is correlated with achievements.
Of course, all the above only apply to averages over large
populations. Indiviaual cases vary. |
| 2009/8/29-9/9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:53308 Activity:nil |
8/29 'For immigrants, Kennedy remained tireless advocate'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090829/ap_on_re_us/us_kennedy_immigrants
'Kennedy remained an ally for immigrants and minorities, even though
Massachusetts didn't have a sizable Latino or Asian population.
"He had no constituency he was trying to serve, other than what he saw
was fair and just," Mindiola said."'
Now this was a real pro-immigrant senator, not like those so-called
"pro-immigrant" vote-buying politicians. I didn't know I benefited
from him so much until after he passed away. May he RIP.
-- Asian immigrant
\_ Is he pro H1B? We need more H1Bs so that tech companies can be
more competitive, by hiring cheap skilled PhDs.
\_ He's now pro annelid.
\_ "All Immigration Votes of Senator Edward Kennedy"
http://www.csua.org/u/oyr (profiles.numbersusa.com)
I'm not sure. At a first glance he seems to be anti-H1B, but
maybe he actually cast his vote according to the specific details
of the bills and the then-current situation, rather than adopting
a simple for/against position. -- OP
I'm not sure. At a first glance he seemed to be anti-H1B, but
maybe he actually casted his vote according to the specific
details of the bills and the then-current situations, rather than
adopting a simple for/against position. -- OP |
| 2009/7/23-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53185 Activity:low |
7/23 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_hospital_deportation "Hospitals are already struggling under the staggering costs of treating the nation's roughly 47 million uninsured. Illegal immigrants make up an estimated 15 percent of this group, according to the Pew Hispanic Center." "He and Larson also say a country that relies on cheap, immigrant labor for everything from agriculture, to clothing to construction, should factor in the cost of catastrophic injuries to those providing these essential services - whether it means requiring employers to offer coverage even for day laborers or ensuring public and nonprofit hospitals can care for them." And people think cheap illegal labor is really cheap labor. \_ hello jblack (Justin Black), how are you? Is today the get angry at all brown people day again? \_ Why do the pro-illegal-immigrant people like to equate anti- illegal-immigrant opinion with anti-immigrant and even anti- minority ones? -- !jblack \_ because the vast majority of "anti-illegal-immigrant" people oppose any attempt to make our immigration laws more sane and thereby reduce the number of "illegal" immigrants. \_ 1) It is a handy debating tactic. 2) Too often, it is true. \_ I know what we need to do, let's start a war and blow up $2T in some worthless country, that will help the economy! |
| 2009/5/28-6/3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:53056 Activity:kinda low |
5/28 Washington Post Correction:
The May 27 editorial "The President's Pick" incorrectly referred
to Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor as the daughter of
"immigrant" parents. Judge Sotomayor's parents were not immigrants
but were born in Puerto Rico after passage of a 1917 law that
automatically conferred U.S. citizenship on island-born residents.
\_ Suck it, bitches!
\_ You cannot imagine how much I don't care.
\_ which of course makes you an ignoramus. but you don't care, so
shut up.
\_ which of course makes you an ignoramus.
\_ Not really. I really do not care where Sotomayor's parents
are from.
\_ The correction wasn't about her parents. It was about
the misuse of the word "immigrant".
\_ Tell that to Tom Tancredo.
\_ Or Gordon Libby who is pissed that she speaks "illegal alien".
\_ The Republican Party will implode in 10..9..8..7.. |
| 2009/4/21-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:52885 Activity:kinda low |
4/21 Real Per Capita spending in CA budget:
http://www.lao.ca.gov/2008/spend_plan/fig_6.jpg
Note that is is flat, which is the opposite of what we have
been repeatedly told on the motd.
\_ Does capita take in account for unaccounted illegal immigrants?
-Dr. jblack
\_ So the problem is we have too many deadbeats? Or a poorly
designed tax system?
\_ Or are spending far too much of it on prisons.
\_ Our inflow is too variable, and the legistlature doesn't want
to build a rainy day fund. The last time CA had a budget surplus
of any size, the Jarvis crowd went into a lather and cut taxes
via initiative, so you can see why they don't want to put anything
aside. Maybe people have wizened up, but I doubt it.
via initiative, so you can see why they don't want to put
anything aside. Maybe people have wizened up, but I doubt it.
\_ Damn those immigrants! -jblack
\_ This chart is BullShit:
Spending in nominal $$$ has roughtly doubled from 1997-8 to 2007-8
(http://www.dof.ca.gov/budgeting/budget_faqs/information/documents/CHART-A1.pdf
Population has risen like 12% in that time.
(http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html
I don't know what kind of BS inflation numbers they are using to
make this work out, but I can tell you that there was not THAT high
inflation between 1997 and 2007.
make this work out, but I can tell you that it was not THAT high.
\_ Given 12% population increase those numbers give me about 1.5x
per capita increase over 10 years, or about 4%/year. Seems
about right.
\_ It does seem kind of high, but 98 to 08 budget is up 80%, not
100%. Let me look at the numbers more closely. |
| 2009/3/9-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:52687 Activity:nil |
3/9 Border arrests drop to 1970s levels
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2202597/posts
\_ Hey look, freeper dude is back. Welcome freeper dude, why did you
leave for a couple of years there?
\_ Can't be freeper dude, it's not a non-descriptive URL.
\_ k, let me replace it with IP and make it "real" |
| 2009/2/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:52603 Activity:nil |
2/19 Motd has been boring lately. Where is jblack's "fuck immigrants"
and "self reliance" freeper drivels? |
| 2008/10/31-11/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:51772 Activity:nil |
10/31 This is it baby, the October Surprise we have been waiting for:
http://tinyurl.com/6fcdrk
\_ Dittohead Desperation Level: Cosmic
\_ Awesome, because if that's all there is this thing is over.
Gobama!
\_ What appened to the swift boat group?
\_ Leaked by federal law enforcement to a Murdoch newspaper. Nice. |
| 2008/8/3-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50767 Activity:kinda low |
8/3 It is much better to have homogeneous suburbs than diverse cities:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2007-06-25jl.html
\_ you know why "It's a small world" is such a happy ride?
because every race is segregated.. if u mixed them up
there'd be wars and genocides on that disney ride
\_ BEST (FUNNY) RESPONSE EVER. Thanks! :)
\_ I was on that ride a couple times and the only thing I didn't
like was that the music was too loud. Never though that the
whole thing was actually politically incorrect.
\_ I always knew that diversity is good EXCEPT when Latinos
and Mexicans are involved. I've lived through LAUSD for
18 years and things are in fact deteriorating. However, like
Putnam, I keep this to myself because every Liberal thinks
diversity regardless of the type of diversity is good.
\_ I'm not saying this dude's data is bad. I'm just surprised because
I think of the places I lived, and the ones that were the most
souless/didn't know anyone who lived around me were the ones where
pretty much everyone was the same. To be fair, I really wasn't
so maybe the benefit of homogenity only works when you identify
with the majority?
\_ I read "The Geography of Happiness" and apparently cultural
homogeneity is is a big element of societal happiness.
Homogeneous groups were much more like to be happy groups.
Some of what this article mentions matches my experience as well.
Any difference in norms is a potential conflict, so people do often
hunker down. I had some Mexican neighbors I liked OK in my old
house, but we clashed a few times, and I put up with a lot of
weird crap just because I didn't want to fight about it. (Who
keeps a rooster in a highly populated area?) I got along much
better with my White neighbors even though I liked the Mexicans
more.
\_ My amazingly white mormon nneighbors kept a rooster. And it
\_ My amazingly white mormon neighbors kept a rooster. And it
wasn't in a rural area.
\_ Doesn't religious diversity count?
\_ Doesn't religious diversity count? The problem is cultural
homogenaity, not race per se. In my case one group was
Mexican, and the other was CA style white trash. If you
were Mormon, you'd see those guys at church, and it would be
pretty easy to find a chance to say, "Hey, your rooster is
waking my daughter up at 4 am every morning. Why do you have
rooster?" If you don't have some sort of common cultural
raport, you have no idea how your neighbor will react of your
inquiry, and you'll tend to hunker down instead.
diverity, not race per se. If you were Mormon, you would see
them at church and it would be easy to ask why they have a
rooster waking your daughter at 4am every morning. With no
social/cultural rapport it is much more difficult to
predict their reaction, and judge how you should approch the
the situaltion. So people hunker down instead.
(Sorry, somebody squished this.)
\_ The mormonness is just to point out just how blindingly
white they were. "Step outside and instantly burn on an
overcast day" white.
\_ Racial integration is sex-based. Until they start screwing each
other's women and having mixed kids people mostly stick within
their own ethnic groups.
Therefore my new liberal government plan is arranged marriages
between races.
\_ Is that why I see so many asian chicks with white dudes?
\_ It's because the Asian chicks are gold-diggers who somehow
find prestige in dating white men and those particular white
men are too geeky to even try to hook up with hot Nordic
blondes but still won't date fat chicks. They produce mongrel
children who possess the worst traits of both.
\_ Are you a Moonie? |
| 2008/7/31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50747 Activity:nil 50%like:50760 |
7/31 Whaddya Know? Enforcement Works!
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5sctgw |
| 2008/7/29-8/3 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50719 Activity:nil |
7/29 Monica Goodling and Alberto Gonzalez routinely broke the law
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/28/AR2008072801007.html
\_ "young political aide" ... "Goodling, 34". Wow, 34 is young. I feel
better now.
\_ 30 is the new 20.
\_ They were following a higher law. God Bless!
\_ Goodling was already granted immunity in return for her
testimony and Gonzalez will be pardoned. Is it really "breaking
the law" if you believe you are above the law and have the
power to get away with it?
\_ Of course it is. Whether you get punished for it is something
else. |
| 2008/7/24-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Military] UID:50674 Activity:kinda low |
7/24 "Killings turn focus on San Francisco sanctuary law"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_re_us/road_rage_killing
"SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a
driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and
preventing another car from turning left.
But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an
AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.
The victims' family learned that Ramos had been arrested at least
three times before the shooting and evaded deportation, largely
because of San Francisco's sanctuary status.
The Bolognas' relatives say Ramos apparently benefited from the policy
when he reportedly was convicted twice of felonies in 2003 and 2004
but never was turned over for deportation."
\_ Are you the same person freaking out over the police state taking
your guns away?
\_ No, that was me. This guy is a violent felon who shouldn't have
been in the country to begin with. And gun laws don't stop
criminals from having guns. It's nearly impossible to legally
have an AK-47 in CA.
\_ WHEN did this event happen? July 24th? Or earlier?
\_ No, this happened a few weeks ago.
\_ So I'm getting two ideas:
1) immigrants = BAD!!!
2) CCW = GOOD!
\_ 1) Wrong. ILLEGAL immigrants = BAD. The sanctuary law in
SF is not about legal immigrants.
\_ People who gridlock intersections deserve to be beaten, but this
is carrying things a bit too far.
\_ Fucking stupid US law. This person would be executed by the
time you read this post in good old China. Human right my
fucking ass. No wonder your prisons are over crowded,
because of idiots who insist that it's cheaper to keep
criminals in Jail than a bullet in the head. Guys like this
should have their fingers chopped off one by one. -ray
\_ Well, in CA it IS cheaper to keep them in jail, but that's just
because anti-death penalty types have made it so. 30 years
of lawyer fees >>> 60 years of prisoner room and board. |
| 2008/6/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50405 Activity:nil |
6/27 Recreate '68! I have to admit, I think this is pretty funny. I hope
these bozo's totally flop.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_9719752 |
| 2008/6/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50224 Activity:nil |
6/10 Slow down everyone!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/06/06/balance.slow.movement |
| 2008/6/5-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:50162 Activity:nil |
6/5 It's pretty amazing to read this and think "wow, that was only 42 years
ago" http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/meaning-box-722
42 years ago there was regular rioting in Chicago because of laws
saying it was illegal to have neighborhoods where you couldn't buy
a home unless you were white. That's pretty mind blowing.
\_ the phrasing of this is interesting. It is also subtly wrong.
\_ How so? |
| 2008/4/2-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:49651 Activity:moderate |
4/2 New trend: retirees leaving the suburbs for the convenience of
The City:
http://www.csua.org/u/l6p
\_ Only in San Francisco. San Francisco is the opposite of
mainstream America.
\_ " The Gruens say they represent a national trend: Senior
citizens, unwilling to live exclusively with their own
age group, find everything they need (and can afford)
to age gracefully by selling the family home and moving
downtown.
'It's a massive trend!' said Nina. 'It's happening all
over America, and there's a good reason for it.'"
\_ I get all my demographic news from Nina Gruen! She's the
best!
\_ do you have a point?
\_ Yeah. How the hell would she know?
\_ maybe, unlike you, she has investigated the
issue.
http://www.planetizen.com/node/19780 -tom
\_ What does that study mean by 'moving to the
cities'? Is Alameda 'a city' by this
definition? What about Barstow?
\_ Funny how it's always easier to
nitpick at other people's data than to
come up with some of your own. -tom
\_ That's your entire MOTD modus operandi.
\_ You mean like in this thread, where I
provided direct evidence and you
haven't? -tom
\_ Where did you post direct evidence
that Nina Gruen did any research
rather than talking out her butt?
\_ are you really this stupid? -tom
\_ You know, reading this roadkill
of a conversation, it occurred
to me it would be a simple
matter to write an eliza-bot
tom simulator that would fool
most motd readers.
\_ It is true. We are smarter, richer and more successful
than elsewhere:
http://www.csua.org/u/l6x (bizjournals)
\_ Stop trying to bore me. |
| 2008/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:49608 Activity:nil |
3/28 The good thing about Obama is that he can use the race card
to get us out of trouble, like war, recession, immigration, etc. |
| 2008/2/25-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49248 Activity:nil |
2/25 Why Obama Hates America
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JB26Aa01.html
It's even better than you think.
\_ Wow, just wow. Fortunately he's pretty good at responding to this
tripe.
\_ I think he prefers tendon, rare steak, brisket, and finally
tripe in that order.
\_ There's never a rare steak, brisket, flank combo. Irritating.
\_ You obviously don't eat Pho.
\_ This the magazine that ran the editorial "Why I Hate Blacks"
http://www.nbc11.com/news/11128382/detail.html |
| 2008/2/25-29 [Transportation/Bicycle, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49247 Activity:nil |
2/25 Hey tom, how did you ever become such a fan of big government
socialist? Is it from riding bike or hanging out with hippies?
\_ hey anonymous coward, fuck off. -tom
\_ by any chance are you an illegal immigrant sympathizer?
\_ and why do you hate america? |
| 2008/2/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49111 Activity:nil |
2/11 Whites to be minority in US by 2050: study - Yahoo! News:
http://www.csua.org/u/kqm
Obama can still get minority support after 2050 -- he'll be calling
himself a white presidential candidate.
\_ Minority or not plurality?
\_ Non-plurality: 47%.
\_ You don't know what plurality means do you?
\_ Actually, I do, but I'm tired. Plurality at 47%, no majority. |
| 2008/1/28-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49021 Activity:kinda low |
1/28 do you think Obama will get sunk by supporting drivers
licenses for illegal immigrants?
\- obama now supported by most famous sunk and drunk driver
in the country.
\_ motd push polling: good or great?
\_ I wonder. I mean, people who care about that issue (like me) may
be more concerned about his other policies. The only D candidate
who didn't openly support that was Dodd, IIRC. -emarkp
\_ How much of your caring for this issue is wrapped up in the
larger question of illegal immigration in general? |
| 2008/1/24-2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:49007 Activity:high |
1/23 Some people want to end birthright citizenship and instead require
a parent to be a citizen for the baby to automatically be a citizen.
Most other countries require this.
Does anyone here think that's a bad idea? If so, why?
\_ It's a great idea but will not gain traction because a Day
Without Mexicans will be devastating to the entire economy
in Southern California.
\_ I think it's a bad idea. It will create an underclass of
citizenry (think Rome or Japan).
\_ Why? There is a clear path to citizenship.
\_ In Japan there are significant percentages of the population
who have lived in the country legally for generations and
yet are not citizens. You think this is a good thing?
\_ I don't know about those people or why they are not
citizens. It doesn't seem relevant to *illegal* immigrants.
\_ The OP said require parents to be citizens. If parents
are legal aliens then they aren't citizens. The kids
then won't be citizens. And so on.
\_ You said in Japan they "lived in the country
legally". If the law didn't give them a right
to be there then they are not legally living there.
If they were deported in the first place then that
would not be a problem. That's a choice that exists
whether to actually try to enforce the law. You can
treat the multigenerational thing as a special case.
If we chose to, we would detect almost all the
illegals long before that.
\_ You can live in a country legally and not
be a citizen.
\_ In the US, if you have legal permanent
residence then you can become naturalized. So
\_ You can apply for it and you may or may
not receive it. You may not want to
apply. My dad just applied after living
here for almost 40 years. It's a
ridiculous thought that I'd not be a
citizen under your plan, given I was
born here to legal immigrants and lived my
whole life here. Further, there is no
guarantee that requirements don't get
more and more difficult. It's a slippery
slope we should not start down.
\_ You will receive it if you qualify.
I know many, many people who were not
born here but whose parents brought
them as a baby. They were not automatic
citizens, they had to be naturalized.
What's wrong with that? And your
slippery slope argument is a slippery
slope argument, i.e. worthless.
\_ You know what is worthless? This
statement: "You will receive it
if you qualify."
\_ Your assertion is worthless.
All these people took the test
or whatever and became citizens.
What's your problem?
\_ Your statement doesn't address
what qualifying entails or
acknowledge that qualifying can
change over time. It's pretty
big to gloss over the "if you
qualify" part. Your ignorance of
citizenship and naturalization
are astounding.
is astounding.
\_ I know what it entails, do
you? You have to be a legal
permanent resident, there's a
time requirement and a basic
test.
If I'm so ignorant, inform
me.
\_ They can find a lot
of excuses to deny you.
What you are listing
are the minimum reqs.
\_ Like what? Do you know
some examples of people
getting screwed?
\_ You don't have a very
active imagination.
\_ You don't have a
point.
\_ I do, but
you're not
grasping it.
Imagine the
gov't changing
req'ts for
some nefarious
reason. Why
give them the
power to deny
citizenship to
your kids?
Uh, ok, but that argument _/
applies equally to birthright.
"Imagine the gov't changing
req'ts." You don't have a point.
\_ No, because birthright is
not an arbitrary set of rules.
\_ Yes it is.
\_ No, it is not. It
is very clear how
birthright is defined
and it isn't
decided by rule.
\_ Of course it's
"decided by rule".
How is inherited
citizenship unclear?
\_ It can be
arbitrary.
What if one
parent is and
the other
isn't? What
about the path to
citizenship
for those whose
parents aren't
citizens?
Birthright is
cut and dry.
\_ It's exactly as
cut and dry. It
only requires one
parent, this is
common sense.
\_ With this
statement
you've already
implemented
an arbitrary
rule. Why one
and not both?
To me
birthright
is common
sense. We
all have
different
ideas of
common sense.
But there's
only one way
to determine
birthright.
What's your pt.
re: path for
noncitizens?
There is one.
\_ Explain how it
would work in
your scheme.
We couldn't
do exactly
what we do
now for US-born
non-citizens.
\_ What? US born
are citizens.
We would do
exactly what
we do now for
non-citizens:
naturalize.
ex. parents
who bring a
kid into the
country. That
kid is not
an auto-ctzn.
\_ What reqts
to
naturalize?
And if it
is easy
to do so
then what
have you
achieved?
Kids of
non-citzns
will just
naturalize.
What is to
be gained?
On a side note, what
would you think of a
law specifically
excepting the 14th
amndmt for children
of illegal aliens?
\_ Unconstitutional
\_ That can be
changed. Did
you know there
actually are
exceptions to
the birthright
clause already?
\_ Yes. So
now you are
advocating
changing the
Constitution?
Any other
changes
while you're
at it?
It's been changed _/
changed before.
Notably to add the
birthright thing in
the 1st place, in the
context of ending
slavery where there
were millions of ppl
without citizenship
but who weren't here
illegally. That's not
the case now.
\_ Kind of drastic
to fuck with the
Constitution b/c
you're afraid of
immigrants.
your concern is irrelevant. If you aren't
here as a permanent resident, then you are
supposed to go back where you came from at
some point; if not then you are now illegal.
\_ No. Plenty of people become permenant
legal residents and never become citizens.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
\_ Might want to check your reading
comprehension because I never claimed
otherwise.
\_ Technically, you're only illegal once your
visa runs out.
\_ Yes.
\_ Many Korean nationals have near-permanent visas
in Japan. Their children are still considered
Korean nationals, no matter how assimilated they
become. The process of attaining citizenship in
Japan is arduous and purposefully designed to
discourage; Japan much prefers having a legal
immigrant population that can be exploited for
labor and deported when it causes trouble. My
wife's best friend in college (Kansai GaiDai) was
of Korean descent (3rd generation) and the first
in her family to become Japanese. She spoke no
Korean and was utterly assimilated. --erikred
\_ Ok but that's not the case here. What is
"near-permanent"?
\_ She's a 3rd generation immigrant to Japan.
Near-permanent means her grandparents have
in Japan all of her life and most of their
kids' lives.
\_ I mean, what kind of visa is "near-
permanent"? They have some kind of
weird multigenerational visa? Or were
the grandparents supposed to go home
and didn't?
\_ I don't know what it's called. They
have been in Japan legally.
\_ It is not that unusual. I know they
had the same issue in Germany with
some Turks that moved there in the
50s and now have some kids that had
been born and raised in Germany, were
now adults and didn't even speak
Turkish, and were being asked to
move back. Eventually, they were
mostly made Germans though.
\_ There is? Can it change? It's a step in the wrong direction.
\_ For legals there is. Reducing illegal immigration is the
wrong direction?
\_ Being born here is legal immigration, not illegal.
\_ I refer to the parents of course.
\_ It sounds like what you're really interested in is
preventing people from entering illegally, having kids
here, then demanding legal status because they now have
a kid who was born here; there are other ways to handle
this apart from removing birthright citizenship.
\_ Like what?
\_ You could deport them, for one.
\_ What about people who enter legally
(say, on a visitor's visa) just to have the
child in the US?
\_ Now see, that just sounds like an
unfortunate and inevitable yet mostly
negligible outcome. Note that the citizen-
ship of the child wouldn't prevent you
from sending parents and child back home
when parents' visa expired, and then the
parents would have to apply for visas or
citizenship themselves through the normal
channels.
\_ Can you legally deport a US citizen?
(the kid). Also, immigrants often seem
to be able to get their family members
legally into the country. Why not just
end the birthright citizenship?
\_ You can legally send the kid home
with its parents. Also, that's not
necessarily a bad thing, and you can
strengthen immigration controls if
you want to control the entry you
seem to be talking about. Why throw
away something that's not broken
when there are other, less drastic
measures available?
\_ The point is it is broken. The
world is different than it was
in the 1800s. Getting born is
not a reasonable immigration path.
\_ You have yet to demonstrate that
it's broken. You're saying that
a part of it is broken, not the
whole thing. Citizenship by
birthplace is an incentive for
parents to want to legally
come to the States, giving us
a large pool of potential
applicants to work in and
contribute to our country; if
our procedure for catching ppl
abusing the system doesn't work,
let's change that.
\_ The way it actually works is as
an incentive to illegally come
here to give birth. Or legally
come here temporarily and give
birth, thereby doing an end
run of the usual procedures.
See, it's a valuable thing to
have even if it can't be used
until the kid is an adult. I
am just pointing out that it
doesn't make sense to grant
citizenship solely on
birthplace with no other tie
to this country. What's the
rationale?
\_ If someone born here
doesn't have rights as
a citizen then who does?
I think your fears
(people coming here to
have babies) are unfounded
and, even if true, what's
the concern? That there
will be more Americans?
That's bad?
\_ 1) Someone born to a
citizen does
2) taxpayer drain
\_ What do you mean
"taxpayer drain"?
Everyone pays taxes,
citizen or not. Do
you think they would
"drain less" if they
were LPRs and not
citizens?
\_ I mean they are poor
and don't pay taxes,
and use public svcs.
\_ There are plenty
of poor citizens
and wealthy LPRs.
Why not an
income reqt
for citizenship?
\_ Why not end
birthright?
\_ Doesn't
seem to
address
your
concerns as
well as an
income reqt.
You misunderstand my concerns then. _/
Do you support unlimited immigration?
\_ I thought your concern is stated
above as "taxpayer drain". No?
Yes, I support legal immigration.
It is what made this country so
great. "Unlimited" is a word I
am not sure I want to touch.
It's a word like "all" or "never".
\_ My concern is that simply being
born in the US doesn't strike me
as a reasonable path to ctznship.
Place of birth has no inherent
meaning anymore. You said it is
an incentive for people to come
legally. How so? The birthright
thing happens if they are legal
or not. I also don't understand
your vague aspersions against
the naturalization process.
If that is broken then that
should be fixed.
\_ It is an incentive because
immigrants consider the
effects of their immigration
on their children. Would
you like to move somewhere
and maybe take up permenant
residence somewhere where
your kids, who were born
and grew up there, would
have 2nd-class status?
\_ 1) we don't actually have a
shortage of people.
2) they would not have 2nd
class status, they could
become citizens if they
choose.
3) it's the way it works
in most other countries,
so it's not a "competitive
disadvantage". Our natural-
ization process is already
very easy compared to many
countries.
\_ The merits of birth-
right are not the issue;
what's at issue is the
problem you've pointed
out vis-a-vis ppl gaming
the system. The approp.
response is to fix the
holes, not tear down the
entire dam.
\_ But it is the issue. The
other issues are just
part of the picture and
symptoms of the under-
lying issue. It's a very
simple concept: instead
of Where, make it Who.
status = parent.status()
The only reasonable
argument I can think of
is that a child of
illegal immigrants
inherits illegal status
through no fault of his
own. But I'm ok with
that because it should
discourage parents from
doing that. Also it's
not worth distinguishing
from someone illegally
bringing a kid here,
and someone birthing one
here.
\_ Your energy is wasted
on this. Focus on
finding solutions,
not throwing out the
working system.
\_ It is a solution. In
all our blathering
you never made any
counterargument that
makes any sense.
\_ Make it
income-based.
Why not?
\_ 1) why should the kid be a citizen if
his parents just happened to be on US soil?
2) if you deport the parents, what do you do
with their citizen kid?
\_ 1) Incentive for parents to want to follow
legal immigration system.
2) Send the kid home with them. Citizenship
is not usually actually conferred until
majority; until then, they fall under their
parents' status.
\_ How about requiring a parent, or the mother, to be legally here
(green card and all sorts of visas) instead of to be a citizen?
\_ That would be better than nothing I guess. I don't see why
the kid should be a citizen though.
\_ Amnesty maybe. I don't think the kid should be granted
citizenship either. If it's up to me, for the green card
case the kid should be granted green card; for all other
cases, nothing. I don't think this idea would be popular
though. -- PP |
| 2008/1/14-18 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:48940 Activity:nil |
1/14 36-year-old state governor!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/ap_on_re_us/louisiana_governor
I'm one year older and I'm goofing off browsing Yahoo at work. :-(
\_ Same here, but on the plus side I don't live in Louisiana
\_ you got the better end of that deal. |
| 2007/11/22-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48682 Activity:nil |
11/21 "...we're not focused on any of the election cycle," Aytes said. USCIS
spokesman Bill Wright emphasized that political calculations played
no role in agency decisions. "Any implication of that is ludicrous,"
http://www.csua.org/u/k27 |
| 2007/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48233 Activity:nil |
10/3 Secessionists meeting in Tennessee
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/ap_on_re_us/secessionist_movement_1 |
| 2007/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:48232 Activity:high |
10/3 Jimmy Carter faces down Darfur officials
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/ap_on_re_af/darfur_9
He bravely ran away, away!
\_ Would you kindly fuck off, you cowardly piece of shit? The man
is 83 years old, and he got in a shouting match with armed men.
His companions and the Secret Service convinced him to get in the
car rather than continue the confrontation. If you're going to
post something, have the nards and decency to read it first.
\_ I did read it. He didn't "face them down" they faced him down.
Nothing really wrong with that, I'd leave too, but the headline
is wrong.
\_ Seconded. Running away would be just scrapping the whole
deal and not trying again. In the real world you can't
go on a humanitarian mission and shout your way past angry
men with big guns. That doesn't do any good for anyone.
But feel free to live in your fantasy world where everything
gets solved by swinging your big dick around and all the women
have gravity defying 36DD breasts.
\_ In my fantasy world, all the women have gravity-defying 32DD
breasts instead. -- !PP
\_ I had the same reaction as the person above, "Hey, Carter may not
be the POS I thought he was.. read.. read.. oh well".
\_ He displayed infinitely more personal courage than Bush did
after 9/11, when the Commander-In-Chief turned tail and
disappeared into a hole.
\_ If the President, any President, of any party, showed up at
ground zero just to pose for the cameras, he deserves to die.
That is the most assinine and stupid gripe you could possibly
have. It is the one thing that he clearly did right that day.
\_ Did I say he should have gone to ground zero? No, I did not.
He could have provided some leadership though, instead of
being a coward. |
| 2007/9/23 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48154 Activity:nil |
9/23 Alberto Fujimori: Wanted in Peru? Vacation in Chile!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008302.stm
(Summary: Extradited to Peru, now under arrest.) |
| 2007/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:48153 Activity:nil |
9/23 Alberto Fujimori: Extradited
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008302.stm |
| 2007/9/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:48040 Activity:nil |
9/12 immigration by numbers
http://video.google.com/videoplay
docid=4094926727128068265&q=numbersusa&hl=en |
| 2007/9/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47952 Activity:moderate |
9/8 I summon: emarkp !
remember the heroic border patrol agents who shot the drug
dealer in the butt as her was running away? You can read
facts about the case here:
http://www.texasmonthly.com/2007-09-01/feature2-1.php
http://xrl.us/5qum
\_ My predicted response from emarkp:
"I don't respond to anonymous cowards."
\_ I think that is tom's mo, not emarkp
\_ I may be anonymous, but I would be interested in hearing
a self described conservative's opinion on the whole case.
Notice I'm not asking him his opinion on Mormon bathed
in blood axe murders or if he got a good deal on golden
plates at the last Wal-Mart sale. Not trolling, just
asking!
\_ Based on historical records, there is a 92% chance
that he'll respond with "Hi anonymous troll! -emarkp"
\_ Why should he respond to someone calling him out?
He has no responsibility. If you really want to chat
seriously with him, send him email.
\_ Typically I don't like responding to anonymous people
calling me out by name. However, I've been fairly
strongly opinionated on this topic so my response is
below. -emarkp
\_ my opinion: they missed and should have been aiming about 18"
higher. -not emarkp anonymous coward
\_ I'll take a look at it, but I've already read a substantial portion
of the trial transcripts. -emarkp
\_ Okay, I've read the first paragraph and it's full of crap. Ramos
said in his own testimony that he reported the shooting over the
radio. Yet the article says, "Neither agent announced the
shooting over the radio or informed his supervisor of what had
happened; the official report about the pursuit made no mention
of their firing their weapons."
Oops. Bad reporting. -emarkp
\_ More bad reporting:
"The bullet was removed by Army doctors at Fort Bliss, and
ballistics tests showed that it had been fired from Ramos.s
handgun, which investigators had taken under the guise of
performing a firearms audit. That night, federal agents arrested
Ramos and Compean at their homes on assault charges."
The bullet was fragmented. They couldn't match the agent's gun.
-emarkp
\_ http://www.csua.org/u/jh4
"In truth, defense attorneys ---- and Ramos himself ----
signed a document agreeing that the bullet came from
Ramos' gun."
Is that true?
\_ He should have used a shotgun.
\_ I'm not aware of that one. However this *does* contradict
the claim by the other article that the bullet was matched.
-emarkp |
| 2007/8/7-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47551 Activity:nil |
8/7 the most honest, ethical, and open Congress in history
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEfmDtxdhM
\_ Straw man. |
| 2007/8/6-22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47538 Activity:nil |
8/5 How the HB1B Visa program really works:
http://www.youtube.com/user/programmersguild
\_ "H-1B"
\_ Common knowledge. So what are you gonna do?
\_ Is this a hoax?
\_ http://www.cohenlaw.com/attorneys-81.html
\_ If all these were true, why would an exployer go through all these
trouble and the associated expenses (attorney fees, HR expense, time
for managers to inverview those "very qualifed" candidates) just to
hire an H-1B worker? What's the upside for the employer?
hire an H-1B worker? What's the upside for the employer? (Unless
those employers are all trying to hire their friends and relatives.)
\_ (a) the H-1B is usually pretty qualified for the job
(b) it's difficult for the H-1B to leave - you obviously have not
seen firsthand the desperation of an H-1B trying to push the
green card process forward with their employer
(c) better leverage over the H-1B because of (b)
\_ Regarding (b), on the contrary I was under the H-1B visa
myself a decade ago. --- PP |
| 2007/6/28-7/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47105 Activity:nil |
6/28 "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" defeated in Senate. Visit your
favorite biased news source for details. |
| 2007/6/26-28 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47078 Activity:nil |
6/26 Another RINO joins the Defeatocrats:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1856687/posts
\_ How long will the conversion process take for every Republican
to become a "RINO"? |
| 2007/6/19-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:47009 Activity:moderate |
6/19 ABC News reports that average height in USA is shrinking (relative to
other countries). They mention health care, but fail to mention
immigration.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3293191
\_ "Researchers said that one reason for Denmark's top ranking could
be that the Dutch health-care system provides better care to
children ..." What does the Dutch health-care system have to do
with people in Denmark??? (And this is coming from a big media
company.)
\_ "Researchers said that one reason for Denmark's top ranking could be
that the Dutch health-care system provides better care to children
..." What does the Dutch health-care system have to do with people
in Denmark??? (And this is coming from a big media company.)
\_ They are just being clueless. It is true that Dutch people are
fucking huge. I'm 5'9" and everyone towers over me when I
visit.
fucking huge. I'm 5'9" and everyone towers over me when I visit.
\_ Are Dutch chicks fucking huge too? That sounds really hot.
\_ Do they have huge tits? Really tall with huge tits would
be hot.
\_ Do they have huge tits? Really tall chicks who look like
eric with huge tits would be hot.
\_ double EE cups
i wonder if she is Danish?
i wonder if she is Dutch?
\_ Do they have huge tits? Really tall chicks who look like eric
with huge tits would be hot.
\_ double EE cups i wonder if she is Dutch?
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/17607/92081a1d
\_ Which Euro country has the biggest tits?
\_ HOT!! Real or fake?
\_ I once had a Danish female co-worker and she was hawt. She
was average height, though.
\_ DUTCH, fool. The Netherlands and Daneland are different places.
\_ I had sex once with a girl who's grandparents were
from the Netherlands. Goddamn.
\_ DUTCH, fool. The Netherlands and Deutchland are
different places.
\_ I had sex once with a girl who's grandparents were from the
Netherlands. Goddamn.
\_ I found a cartoon about hot Dutch girls.
http://tinyurl.com/32v8zc
\_ DUTCH, fool. The Netherlands and Deutchland are different
places.
\_ NO SHIT, asshole. The dude who said "Dutch" got it
\_ fuck YOU dutch nazi appeaser.
I read Diary Of Anne Frank
i am onto you
wrong, not me. Denmark is the country with the huge
people. The Netherlands is the place with the health
care system.
\_ fuck YOU dutch nazi appeaser. I read Diary Of Anne
Frank i am onto you wrong, not me. Denmark is the
country with the huge people. The Netherlands is the
place with the health care system.
\_ I AM fucking Dutch, the Dutch are huge (but I am
not)
The Danish may be tall too, but my relatives tell
me the Dutch are the tallest in Europe.
not) The Danish may be tall too, but my relatives
tell me the Dutch are the tallest in Europe.
\_ I'm Danish and 7'. My greatgrandmother was
Danish and 5'. Height is a function of genes and
diet. --erikred
\_ Dutch chicks are tall, have huge tits and great bodies from
riding their bicycles everywhere, which they show off in
tight spandex pants. They hate the suburbs though :-(
\_ are there suburbs in dutchland?
\_ There are plenty of then in the netherlands, yes
My aunt & uncle just moved from the suburbs of
Amsterdam to the city.
\_ And chernobyl
\_ It also failed to mention too many video games and too much TV.
\_ I absolutely agree that this has to do with immigration. Have you
ever walked around the Mission District? I'm only 5'7" but I feel
like a giant there.
\_ You're all short. --erikred
\_ What about average penis size in USA relative to other countries? |
| 2007/6/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46991 Activity:nil |
6/15 How unpatriotic Dems plan to kill the American auto industry:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/16/democrats.radio.ap |
| 2007/6/7-10 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46887 Activity:nil |
6/7 Check out the top story on http://news.yahoo.com right now. What kind of "news" is that??? \_ immigration bill fails crucial vote? \_ I'm referring to the "Krumping", as reported by the Yahoo! Underground team. \_ Krump! Trends sell man \_ LibDems block critical reforms championed by President and Commander-In-Chief Bush. Don't they understand how this encourages the enemy? |
| 2007/5/25-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46746 Activity:nil |
5/25 Hazleton PA mayor fighting illegal immigration won the primary for
both parties by massive amounts.
http://www.yorkdispatch.com/politics/ci_5908958 |
| 2007/5/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46709 Activity:moderate 72%like:46685 |
5/18 Freepers, um, "respond" to immigration plan
http://urltea.com/l9i (wonkette.com)
\_ Is this the move that will drop his approval ratings to sub-Nixon
numbers?
\_ You're not thinking far enough ahead. All but one of the
2008 R candidates has come out against this bill. This will
fire up the base and enable them to rant and rave about how
THEY wouldn't have sold the country down the river for them
damn Mexicans if THEY had been President. This is a parting
gift from Dubya for em.
\_ Ezra Klein has a good take
http://csua.org/u/iq0 (prospect.org)
\_ It's still above congress' approval. However, "the base" that
will leave Bush has already done so. I can't imagine it'd go
lower.
\_ With a slip of 6% in rasmussen's daily poll, i expect to
see 25% in other polls by the end of the month. 22% by
july 4?
\_ There are no Freepers on the motd. We used to have one and then we
had several fakes and now we fortunately have none.
\_ No, I think we had two. But yeah, they rarely post anymore.
\_ $freeper++. I stand corrected. :-) |
| 2007/5/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:46685 Activity:low 72%like:46709 |
5/18 Freepers, um, "respond" to immigration plan
http://wonkette.com/politics/dept%27-of-messy-breakups/beloved-right+wing-message-board-demands-bush-impeachment-261439.php
\_ Is this the move that will drop his approval ratings to sub-Nixon
numbers?
\_ You're not thinking far enough ahead. All but one of the
2008 R candidates has come out against this bill. This will
fire up the base and enable them to rant and rave about how
THEY wouldn't have sold the country down the river for them
damn Mexicans if THEY had been President. This is a parting
gift from Dubya for em.
\_ Ezra Klein has a good take
http://csua.org/u/iq0 (prospect.org)
\_ It's still above congress' approval. However, "the base" that
will leave Bush has already done so. I can't imagine it'd go
lower.
\_ There are no Freepers on the motd. We used to have one and then we
had several fakes and now we fortunately have none. |
| 2007/5/11-14 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:46587 Activity:nil |
5/11 The Dark Side of Diversity by Pat Buchanan
http://csua.org/u/io9 (townhall)
I always knew Pat Buchanan was a crank, but this reaches
whole new levels.
\_ He's an isolationist, and has been for a long time.
\_ IOW: "I never liked Pat and disagree with everything he says so
I'm posting a random link that is mostly just a list of non-citizens
who have gone on killing sprees and then delcaring him a crank in
an effort to troll the motd".
\- pat robertson is a good example of "if you put one foot in ice
water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
\- patrick buchanan is a good example of "if you put one foot in
ice water and one foot in boiling water, on average you are ok"
fallacy. i think he's reasonable and insightful about many things
and has made some astute predictions [these arent about his
opinions but his ability to make predictions, so that's a
skill, if you will], but he certainly has some reprehensible
views which dont get "averaged out" ... although he isnt
any where close to the top of by "needs a beating" list.
anywhere close to the top of by "needs a beating" list. |
| 2007/5/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46540 Activity:high |
5/6 Mon Dieu, Sarkozy wins:
http://urltea.com/i89 (cnn.com)
\_ I told you CONSERVATISM is spreading throughout the world and
nothing is going to stop it! Privatization, pro-business, less
tax, less immigrants, tough on crime, less communism, less
social programs, & more self reliance!
\_ A surprise, I know. What do you think of the result?
\_ Freedom Fries! Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys! Acck! Phht! |
| 2007/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46512 Activity:high |
5/2 Asian men are crazy:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18442224/site/newsweek
\_ That was about the most useless interview imaginable.
\_ Was it Hoyt Sze?
\_ I guess I don't get the reference. I see from google
he's some kind of anti-whitey, but does he give crappy
interviews?
\_ He's a former Daily Cal reporter, and a legend in his
own mind.
\_ http://www.modelminority.com/article269.html
"Interracial dating between white men and Asian women
undermines the integrity of Asian America."
\_ http://urltea.com/hj7 (youtube.com)
\_ Quite funny, thanks.
\_ Hello racist troller! Don't forget they are also good at math!
http://nomorequo.blogspot.com/2007/04/why-asians-are-better-at-math.html
http://urltea.com/hde (nomorequo.blogspot.com) |
| 2007/4/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46322 Activity:nil |
4/16 Why are the VT shootings being described as "worst in US history"
by the media? This seems like useless hyperbole where none is needed,
and besides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
\_ well, wikipedia says worst "civilian" shooting in U.S. history
\_ The TV news says it's the worst "school shooting" in US history. |
| 2007/3/28-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46124 Activity:nil |
3/28 Dr. Kevin MacDonald Discusses U.S. Immigration Policy Issues
http://www.csua.org/u/ibs |
| 2007/3/22-24 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:46054 Activity:nil |
3/22 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1804868/posts Lax immigration hurts the poor \_ This is about as vanilla as freeper posts get. I expect this was posted by a non-freeper who couldn't stomach digging deeper, not that I blame you. |
| 2007/2/23-26 [Finance/CC, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45807 Activity:nil |
2/23 B of A starts offering credit cards to people w/o SSN:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070222/us_nm/bankofamerica_immigrants_dc
That's strange. My dad got a B of A credit card in 1980 when he
didn't have an SSN and was on a work visa in the Bay Area. Today he
still doesn't have an SSN and is still using the card overseas
regularly. |
| 2006/12/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Industry/Jobs] UID:45484 Activity:nil |
12/21 I guess those *aren't* jobs Americans won't do: http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/12/20/4589a66d00bd4 \_ Yes, just like there's a purported shortage of engineers, PhDs, etc. |
| 2006/12/19-26 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45468 Activity:nil |
12/19 Huh? The Governor says the "hidden tax" of paying for health treatment
of illegals should be replaced by....an open tax. How will this
improve things?
http://www.dailynews.com/theiropinion/ci_4863698
\_ Full cost accounting. You can see where the money is going and
decide to increase/decrease it and how. When it's hidden, you
have no control over it. I think that if people knew the true
costs of illegal immigrants then they can make informed
decisions. As it is now, all we have are vague estimates and
debate over whether illegals help or hurt the economy.
\_ What's stupid about this though is that it's not like there's
going to be an "illegal immigrants who consume health treatment
tax dollars revenue fund".
\_ Given the number of emergency rooms which have closed, I don't
thing there's a debate.
\_ Sure there is. Are they contributing elsewhere (e.g.
lower prices on goods and services)? Do the pluses
outweigh the minuses? One way is to start openly tracking
this stuff.
\_ Of course, the Gov. said this was a drag on the economy, so
you're making a different argument than he is.
\_ Someone said there's no debate. I disagree with
this. I didn't 'make an argument' other than that
the benefits of illegal immigrants are debatable. |
| 2006/11/14-25 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45340 Activity:nil |
11/14 http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/11/13/ap3170519.html Immigrants charged with being terror suspects may be held indefinitely, with no right to challenge their detention. |
| 2006/11/12 [Computer/SW/P2P, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:45332 Activity:nil |
11/12 Anyone know of a way to watch the rights restricted content on the
BBC' s Torchwood website. (UK only). The episodes that area already on
BitTorrent are HIGHLY reccomended but definitely not for the kiddies.
Think of X-files and CSI crossed with a healthy dose of Sopranos and
you will get my drift. With lots and lots of DR Who tie-ins along with
some really really good eye candy. |
| 2006/11/6-7 [Computer/SW/Editors, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45202 Activity:low |
11/6 Poll: How are you avoiding kchang's identifier on
http://csua.com/24/?incr=1 ? I'll start:
scp: .
cp, vi, cp: .
it's wrong most of the time (at least for my posts), so why care?: ..
Didn't know kchange was back: .
\_ man, kchang's message is out of date
"WARNING: Random aliases shown are solely for the purpose of
entertainment. Real logins, as well as randomized names really
didn't post these messages."
\_ I always launch my editor (Vim) when I login to soda and load the
motd into the buffer. When I write to the motd, I load my comment
into a buffer, reload the motd and then write the change. Since I'm
always running the editor, kchang nearly always flags me as a a
possibility. Thus my actual comments are lost in the noise. -emarkp
\_ I don't give a rat's ass. -John
\_ I don't give a man's ass. -John
\_ I don't give yermom's ass. -John |
| 2006/11/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:45197 Activity:nil |
11/6 http://safercolorado.org/initiative_language I don't get it. Where are people supposed to obtain these now-legal < 1oz quantities of marijuana? This feels like legalizing employment of illegal immigrants while keeping undocumented immigration illegal. \_ They aren't supposed to. It's a symptom of the public having a split opinion on the issue. The net effect is a half-assed bill. \_ They can't buy it, but if it is found on someone's person they can't get arrested/have their car taken from them/etc. \_ You're missing the point. "Legal to own but (effectively) illegal to aquire" is stupid. \_ Grow? -John |
| 2006/10/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44783 Activity:kinda low |
10/12 So given that Schwarzenegger is going to win reelection, how do you
plan to vote? As a conservative who thinks R's are now useless and am
interested in securing the border, I'm going to be voting for the
Libertarian candidate, Art Olivier (electart.com). -emarkp
\_ God, emarkp, don't you get it? the issue is illegal immigration,
not border security! right now border is not secure because
there is a huge incentive for them to get acrossed without much
downside. To REALLY address the problem, we need to either
remove the incentive, and/or increase the disincentive.
If you REALLY want to solve the problem, PUNISH THE EMPLOYERS
SEVERELY for hiring illegal immigrants. *BUT* that is against
the core GOP's platform of corporate welfare. The entire
issue of "illegal immigrant" is actually an issue of "corporate
welfare," as corporations can exploit cheap labors without mandated
benifits, and push the cost of illegal immigrants to the government
(schools, emergency care, etc). If you want a sensible immigration
policy, then, write your GOP congressman and push for punishment
for the employer. If you just want to use this issue to win
elections, just keep secure the border, then.
kngharv, bitter legal immigrant
\_ Now is the time for the Invisible Hand to point out that if the
U.S. didn't spend so much effort imposing unfair trade agreements
on Mexico which destroy the livlihoods of Mexican farmers there
would not be so much motivation for people to migrate north
and this problem would be much smaller.
\_ FYI, I'm currently working on a research project re
employer punishment statutes for my con. law prof.
He is concerned that one possible challenge to these
statutes is that the states lack the power to enact
them b/c any enactment related to immigration is
exclusively w/in the power of the fed. gov, therefore
the states, even in the absence of fed. action, lack
the power to act in this field.
I'm not sure, but I think that the states can argue that
in the absence of fed action (or expressed inaction), they
can enact these laws, even though they are related to
immigration policy.
\_ If you're a law student then surely you know about the
10th Amendment. I don't think the Constitution mentions
immigration at all. Correct me if I am wrong. Therefore,
this is a matter for the States.
\_ Under Art I, Sec 8 cl 4 Congress has the
power to "establish an uniform rule of
naturalization." This power has been viewed
very broadly by courts to touch on all aspects
of immigration law and policy. In addition,
Art I, Sec 8 cl 3 and Art I, Sec 10 further
limit what states can do in the field of
foreign affairs.
Since the Const. has expressly delegated
the immigration and naturalization power to
Congress, the 10th does not apply.
Even if the immigration clause didn't exist
there is a STRONG argument under US v. Curtis-
Wright Corp. that the regulation of immigration
is a power so closely tied w/ national
sovereignty that the states are barred from
acting in that area.
Also re the 10th - it is basically useless.
Also re the 10th - it is basically meaningless.
All it says is that powers not delegated are
reserved. Well, if the power was not delegated
it would necessarily be reserved. In addition,
the 10th does not require EXPRESS delegation.
Implicit delegation is also sufficient. As in
Curtis-Wright, it only applies to powers that
the states actually had before the Const. If
the states didn't have the power, then it can't
be reserved.
the states (or the people) didn't have the power,
then it can't be reserved.
\_ I plan to vote in my home state, where we don't even have a
governator.
\_ You could do what my friend did and bake a lot of muffins
and go to the borderand hang out with the Minutemen
\_ If I lived further south, I would. But I was asking about the
election. -emarkp
\_ Who cares. Schawarzanegger is going to win. The Propositions
are more interesting. What do you feel about Prop 90?
\_ There's an election or something soon right?
\_ I'm voting for Schwarzenegger, even though I think that the
GOP on a national level is really messed up. I think that
by supporting sane GOP candiates like McCain and Ah-nuld,
we can rid the party of the wackos.
\_ What principles of the GOP platform do you think the gov.
believes in? -emarkp
\_ Who gives a shit anyway. a) 3rd parties can't win. b) with
two parties, political values only loosely map onto the two
candidates we get stuck with. Sometimes I wish we were
parliamentary like the Euros. But then the fundies would
probably have even more power.
\_ a) is incorrect at the state level. The examples that
come immediately to mind are Jesse Ventura and Loell
Weicker. Not common, but not insignificant either. |
| 2006/10/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44689 Activity:high 80%like:44687 |
10/5 Once again Liberals try to stop speech they don't like:
http://www.nysun.com/article/41020
\_ Do you understand the difference between a stupid crowd trying to
shut up someone they don't like and people trying to pass laws to
limit the freedom of speech?
\_ The op didn't say it was a government action. Op said it was
"Liberals". Do you understand that Liberals are not the
government?
government? Ok, this part is just too funny, "An hour before
Messrs. Stewart and Mr. Gilchrist took the stage, rowdy protests
began outside the auditorium on Broadway, where activists
chanted, "Hey, hey, ho, ho, the Minutemen have got to go!"
\_ The argument is classically phrased as "liberals _claim_ that
they support freedom of speech, but..." and I'm pointing out
that there's a difference between stupid crowds and people
actually voting away our rights, which is what the
conservatives (who are the government, atm) have been doing.
\_ [sorry, restored, i was too fast on the Save button and
smushed your post]. The first point remains. Liberals
do claim and it isn't true. We call that "hypocritical".
My favorite rant was the folks chanting "no free speech
for fascists!" on Sproul's steps. Talk about "not
getting it". Sheesh.
\_ Those were almost certainly communists, who are not
liberals.
\_ Uh... you're just joking, right?
\_ I'd ask if you're really this dumb, but I know
the answer, so I'll just tell you to go fuck
yourself.
\_ Thanks. You have answer all my questions.
Not with the answers you think you have but
thanks for making it so clear. Or maybe you
just didn't read the article.
\_ They actually were Communists on Sproul.
Are you really this dense that you think
liberal==Communist? -!op
\_ I was there on Sproul that day. They
were not Communists although they may
have been communists and they were
definitely liberal and Liberal. Anytime
you'd like to toss out a fact instead of
a personal attack, I'll be here. Have a
nice day.
\_ You mean the David Irving protest?
I was there that day and the protest
was organized by the Revolutionary
Communist Party, who are Communists.
The Spartacus League, which is also
Communist, uses the slogan as well.
Those are the facts, which do not
fit your neat worldview, so you just
resort to attacking me personally. Sad.
fit your neat worldview.
\_ No I dont mean the David Irving
protest. I mean the day a bunch
of nutty people wanted everyone
to clap for peace. Your facts
are unrelated to what I was
talking about.
\_ Hah! That's awesome. Now if they were trying to make
a point about facism and its relation to free speech,
I might be able to respect their intentional irony, but
I don't actually expect they were that witty. Sigh.
People suck. They can be as hypocritical as they want
in personal discourse, but when they start legislating
stupidity, then I'm really pissed off.
\_ They weren't that witty or ironic. The rest of it
was something about how we gathered there should
clap our hands for peace to create good vibes
because: Sproul leads the campus, the campus leads
the Bay Area which leads the State which leads the
Nation which leads the World. Thus by creating good
peace vibes there on Sproul that day we could spread
World Peace around the planet.
\_ Actually, Good Vibrations is down on San Pablo.
\_ Imagine how peaceful the planet would be if
they opened a store in the student union bldg
right there on sproul plaza! I have discovered
the formula for World Peace! You saw it here
first!
\_ Not until we get rid of religious
moralization.
\_ Greetings Humorless Person! |
| 2006/10/5 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44687 Activity:nil 80%like:44689 |
10/5 Once again Liberals fight against speech they don't like:
http://www.nysun.com/article/41020 |
| 2006/9/23-26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:44512 Activity:nil |
9/23 Dems want to squander money on immigrants and Negros:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/23/Dems.radio.ap/index.html
\_ This message brought to you by the Association of Pure White
Brotherhood and Justin P Black
\_ No one responded to your original troll so you responded to
yourself. Lame, lame, lame.... |
| 2006/9/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44504 Activity:kinda low |
9/22 It turns out if illegals didn't pick our produce, the price wouldn't
change much. (Seattle Times)
http://csua.org/u/gz3
\_ Price has nothing to do with it. It is unethical and immortal to
pay people what illegals get paid.
\_ My interpretation of the data is that the difference in cost is
17 cents, but builder profit is 12 cents.
17% more expensive is pretty huge, much more than "a few thousand"
dollars.
\_ No kidding. Do you think Mexicans are picking the produce in
France, too? California has a lot of illegals willing to do
construction and we actually pay more for that sort of work
than most other states. Having a Mexican maid at the Four
Seasons didn't exactly slash my hotel bill either.
\_ No, Africans do, as in Spain. Germany and the UK? Eastern
Europeans. -John
\_ As long as there is work in America and no work in Mexico and
Central America, I'll make sure people keep on coming. The border
is thousands of miles long, and there will always be holes no matter
how much money you throw at the problem. c.f. The War on Drugs.
--the invisible hand
\_ Start slapping employers with fines and jail time and there
won't be any jobs for illegals. --the visible hand
\_ Agreed. -invisible conservative
\- and there will be fewer illegal criminal employers too!
http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~nunberg/aliens.html
\_ Again, c.f. The War On Drugs. Face it, globalization is
stronger than you. So is THE INVISIBLE HAND, BITCHES!
--the invisible hand
\_ agreed - ultra-left liberal. I am SOOOOOOO pissed at
the current immigration debate. I view this as a form of
corporate welfare which we need to get rid of. I don't
understand why some of my liberal collegues demands
"rights" for these illegal immigrants. demanding illegal
immigrant's right is almost like my self demanding the
quality of coke/crack to be monitored and regulated by FDA.
\- i found it amazing to talk to some black union people
who never gave a second thought to making "arguments"
like "are you relly comfortable letting somebody
if *india8 or *pakistan* do you tax returns!", as
if *india* or *pakistan* do you tax returns!", as
if it was self-evident that "those people" were all
crooked, stereotyping 3rd world workers as being
potential identity thieves. [i believe they were
focusing on the trust rather than the competence
issue, although they werent exactly granting that
these workers had reasonable price-productivity].
\_ Agreed, a lot of people have uninformed issues with
trust of workers in developing economies for racial
or cultural reasons, but they make the right point for
the wrong reason. First, I do not trust India or
Pakistan (your examples, but many others apply) to
have significant data protection laws in place. I
also do not have the same legal recourse in case of
abuse that I have in my own country--viz. the UCSF
case of the poor chick in Pakistan (?) threatening to
release thousands of patient records she was processing
because some scumbag (US) subcontractor had not paid
her. Lastly, although this does not apply so much to
individual services like tax returns as much as to
corporate project work, I have _serious_ competence and
reliability issues, as every single one of a large
number of high-value IT projects I've either worked on
or near that relied on organized outsourcing to Wipro,
Infosys, or any of a number of other Indian firms, has
involved overselling, cost overruns, gross inefficiency,
involved overselling, cost overruns, inefficiency,
delays and sundry other fuckups. I refuse to imply
conclusions like "Indian workers are useless", as all
people I've seen actually _brought on site_ had about
the same usefulness level as "Western" workers, but for
offshore work, I'll pass. -John
\- i was kinda worndering if i should have
anticipated exactly the two arguments you made
[except i had not heard about the ucsf case] but
i was felling lazy. first, yeah, i agree there is
something to be said about the data protection
argument. a lot of business relationship work
because the possibility of litigation solves the
"prisoner's dilemma" problem. but these guys were
"arguing by stereotype". it was the same argument
as "well you really cant trust a 23 yr old black
man looking for a taxi ... he might be a nice guy
but he also might be a ghetto thug". i think we
are in agreement here. as for the lower end of the
IT work curve, i think outsourcing has exposed
talented people here to untalented people there.
i think this sort of happened here with the
<DEAD>dot.com<DEAD> boom when all kinds of non-science/eng
morons flowed into the high tech field and you
had vast numbers of dba or "web programmers"
who had no clue what they were doing. many of
these former english majors have exited the mkt here
but these people are still flocking into the mkt
there. moving from teh people-talent to project
fuckups: i dont remember the numbers, but "studies
show" some giant percentage of IT projects fail,
so the failure baserate may be pretty high.
and these flavor of fuckups are not uncommon here.
from halliburton, to defense contracting, to DHS
IT projects, BIGDIG, Bay Bridge [yes, the govt is
the other party in all of those cases, but private
companies dont advertise their fuckups now, do they].
Oh actually, i just remember a whole raft of fuckups
with a friend who outsourced a bunch of IT things to
KPMG. This was a case where they were a small client
so they got the KPMG dumbasses ... who turned out
to also have a bad work ethic and were essentially
dishonest [walked out of debugging a problem at 5pm
when my friend left for a minute, expensed basketball
tix to the contract etc. pretty much everything
with those guys failed, except for some trivial
stuff they could have just done themselves. again,
where you sit influneces who you deal with. "govt
workers @lbl.gov != govt workers at the port of
oakland]
\_ I did say "right point for the wrong reason."
I think we agree there. And yes, many IT
projects fail--in my case, I'm batting about
90% so far, and those 10% were because of
lack of customer senior mgmt buy-in after we
finished (I never work with or for idiots or
losers, thank god.) However, the mediocre
quality of all offshoring work I've seen
(management, technical skills, worker
initiative and motivation) always added yet
another major failure factor to projects it
caused to tank, which would not have been
there otherwise that's all. Oh and btw,
the three reasons I named against offshoring
work apply to India, Pakistan, China,
Russia, Malaysia and a number of other
second-tier economies in my experience. -John |
| 2006/9/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44465 Activity:nil |
9/20 http://csua.org/u/gxx If you want to secure our borders, you're a racist. \_ Economic competition, suck it up - bitches! --the invisible hand |
| 2006/9/16-19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44408 Activity:nil |
9/16 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/15/immigration.town.ap/index.html Finally, good news -jblack #1 fan \_ Yup, we can finally cut down the budgets for schools and health care for these people. |
| 2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44276 Activity:nil |
9/5 "Entrant"? What's that supposed to mean?
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/145198.php
\_ I don't think I'm going out on a limb here: entrant, n.,
one who enters.
\_ This is actually kind of interesting, as my uncle's wife's mother
recently got permission to enter the US from Mexico to visit her
daughters (naturalized US citizens). They had to prove that she
would have significant financial support if she somehow decided to
stay, and they also had to show that she owned her own house in
Mexico and thus had a strong incentive to return. And then, even
though she had only applied to visit, they went ahead and offered
her permission to work anyway. So Entrant-rights might be somewhat
different from immigrant-rights... or perhaps not. --erikred
\_ what? she applied for a B-2 visa and they offered to give her
a green card?
\_ She had filled out the forms for the visit. There was a check
box that she could check if she intended to work. The consular
agent suggested that she go ahead and check that box, just in
case she wanted to work.
\_ did the checkbox lead to anything else besides a B-2 visa?
\_ this is why I am so pissed at the immigtration policy. we put
so much constraint to those who trying to enter/leave US via
the legal means, while we don't punish those who cross the
border illegally. |
| 2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44275 Activity:low |
9/5 Republicans decide to lose the Nov elections
http://csua.org/u/gu3
\_ good ... bad ... I'm the guy with the gun^H^H^Hvoting equipment
corporations.
\_ when the consequences of Dubya losing control is a mushroom cloud
over one or several major American cities, can you let the good
but misguided masses decide the future?
\_ As a former R and conservative I, I think we're not going to
take the whole thing seriously until there is a mushroom cloud
over a city. And I hope if the D's take control they impeach
Bush for his refusal to defend our borders. -emarkp
\_ Regardless of your party affiliation, do you still
believe the Iraq War is a good thing?
\_ Honestly, had you been surrounded by conservatives who
still worship Bush, would you switch? Probably not. My
point is you switched mostly because the people around
you disagree with you, and you're sick and tired of
defending yourself, right?
\_ Why are you a former R and conservative? I can see leaving
the party if you feel the party has left you. I don't see
why you'd be a former conservative unless you've undergone
a shift in personal philosophy which doesn't seem to match
your last statement about defending our borders.
\_ I think you're parsing his post wrong.
\_ Maybe so. I re-read it a few times and still don't
see another reading. Help me out.
\_ I think he's a former Republican, and a
conservative (still). In fact, I believe
he left the Republican party because they
weren't controlling immigration well enough.
\_ conservative I = conservative Independent
\_ So if they impeach Bush for breaking the law, will you see
that as a happy compromise?
\_ Hi troll!
\_ I do not think it means what you think it means.
\_ A happy compromise with what? Rs losing the election?
Mushroom cloud over a US city?
\_ All of this Republicans == making country safer rhetoric
would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you know,
their actions.
would be great if it actually coincided at all with, you
know, their actions.
\_ Do you think nothing has happened inside the US borders
since 9/11 because of a) luck, b) lack of effort or
preparation on the part of terrorists, or c) various
government agencies successfully keeping citizens safe?
\_ a), combined with shift in Al Queda strategy.
\_ I don't believe this. I think it's all three, but
I think the Dems can maintain status quo on (c) and
do a better job on Iraq, winning the war on terror,
and not fucking up the economy. |
| 2006/9/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:44273 Activity:nil |
9/5 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14673701 http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/04/poll.election/index.html Alright guys. November's coming. Bad news for the Republican. \_ If there's only one Republican, I can see where there is a problem. \_ All politics are local and current. Never cry for joy or for pain based on random polls months ahead of an election. |
| 2006/8/29-9/1 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44186 Activity:nil |
8/29 Personal accounts of the events in Maywood over the weekend (8MB mp3):
link:csua.org/u/gsl (starting around 19 minutes in)
(Summary: activists opposed to illegal immigration had a protest in the
self-declared "sanctuary city". They were mobbed by violent illegal-
immigration supporters.)
Photos and video of illegal-immigration supporters hoisting Mexican
flag over US post office in Maywood:
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005818.htm
\_ Really, disguising Malkin links is just plain silly. Post proud or
go home. |
| 2006/8/17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44054 Activity:nil |
8/17 JonBenet case solved! Former school teacher admitted killing her.
The parents are clear after all.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/17/ap/world/mainD8JI3OSG0.shtml
\_ obWhoGivesAShit
\- the parents may not be murderers, but they are all freaks
\_ At this point it seems quite likely that this guys is lying, and
it is a false confession. He won't state anything verifiable
about the case, (that wasn't in the news), and he was a strong
alibi. (His ex-wife claims he was with her in Alabama that day.)
\_ Next time when you jack off to her pics you know which bastard
took your sweetheart away from this world. |
| 2006/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44027 Activity:nil |
8/16 Democratic Web ad angers some Hispanics
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060816/ap_on_el_se/democratic_ad_hispanics
Oopsiedaisy!
\_ "undocumented migrants", ha!
\_ can we just call them illegal immigrant.
\_ How about just "Mexicans?" -average American male
\_ That's what I call them. But the vote-buyers think otherwise.
\_ Actually, "immigrant" historically has meant legal immigrant.
The proper term is "illegal alien". |
| 2006/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:44019 Activity:nil |
8/15 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/15/diversity.ap/index.html Explosion of diversity sweeps US, census shows. \_ This is REALLY REALLY bad news for the Republicans. \_ So how long do you think before the nth generation descendents of mexican illegal immigrants start to resent and try to keep out the new wave of mexican illegal immigrants? \_ Who says it isn't happening now? There are plenty of quotes and interviews from American born descendents who don't want the borders treated like swiss cheese at a mouse convention. \_ Diversity threatens me. -average American male |
| 2006/7/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43745 Activity:nil |
7/20 http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060719/ts_csm/acoldshoulder "In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates curtailing immigration levels." \_ Wow. An anti-immigration lobbying group provided numbers claiming that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. Breaking fucking news. \_ Just looking at gov't services is myopic. Illegal immigrants probably provide more than $2.7k worth of labor, reducing prices, and benefitting those who paid taxes. \_ Do they provide the more than $2.7k worth of labor for free? No, they get paid. \_ Sorry, I meant 'labor below market rates'. \_ Which drags down pay scales for citizens, which further erodes what citizens pay in taxes, increases the amount of government services citizens require, etc, all so some people can get a head of lettuce for 10 cents less. Although if you own a mega agribusiness you're scoring big time off this scam, more power to you. Everyone else is getting hurt, at least indirectly. \_ unless you consume produce \_ Depends on what % of your budget you spend on produce. \_ This is *still* a myopic view on your part. The rest of the population benefits from the reduced prices on everything that immigrant labor goes into. Can you quantify it and balance it against the costs you correctly mention? You're giving only one side of the story. Yes, the gov't gets less taxes, but is "taxes paid to gov't" the sole benchmark of a successful economy? Anyway, without said quantification your assertions are just ^[i.e., illegals are bad] assertions. I'll find you credible when you have numbers. And if you *do* back your assertions with a non-myopic balanced analysis of real costs and benefits, and immigration is a downside, you'll have my vote. Seriously, I admit you might be right, it's just I don't think you've made your case. \_ So your line is basically, "I like cheap stuff so it is up to you to justify enforcing immigration law". The burden of proof is on those who flagrantly violate the law or advocate such violation that the illegal population is an over all plus for the country. You not only have to demonstrate that illegals are good for the country economically but that the benefit far outweighs the all the other negatives. You have an additional burden: illegal workers who are mostly in farming and construction are getting lower pay than citizens *because* they are illegal and thus are being abused. How can you ethically and morally justify paying unjustifiably low wages for such hard work when the basis of that low wage is the illegal status of the worker which puts them at the tender mercy of their employers? If you own stock in any of the mega agribusinesses, more power to you for the money you make on others this way. \_ Actually, the burden of proof is on bigoted isolationists who defend current barriers to legal immigration. Why not make those workers legal and have them pay taxes? And incidentally, the entire argument is a red herring, since poor people as a group will always pay less in taxes than they take in in services. -tom \_ No, I'm not making the claim that immigrants are good. Did you not get the part where I said I'd listen to you if you were convincing? I'm merely pointing out that immigrants COULD be good, that your argument that they are bad ignores or doesn't weigh possible benefits of illegal immigration compared to the costs. I'm not standing up for immigrants: I'm listening to you and finding you unconvincing because you don't really address counterarguments. Get it? Similarly, I'd jump on a pro-immigrant guy who didn't bother mentioning consumption of public resources. Right now, I am neutral: I simply don't know. All I am saying is that you are not convincing. You've said nothing that makes me feel compelled to get off the fence on your side. \_ Let's not confuse immigrants who got in line and followed the law and came here legally with illegal immigrants who did not. I'm quite pro-immigrant. Going on from there: the basis of my argument is that it doesn't matter if they are good for the country economically (which many studies dispute and a visit to your local emergency ward would empirically confirm) but the greater issue I raised of 'they are here *illegally*'. If you want free and open immigration, that's fine, let's make that the official on-the-books law instead of this nonsense where we have laws we flat out ignore and intentionally fail to enforce as a matter of official policy. Then at least everyone would be legal and the entire issue would settle itself in a libertarian style truly-free economic free-for-all. I think that would be a horror but at least the artificially low wages and employer control over their helpless workers would end. If you're not up for libertarian style border enforcement then what is wrong with actually enforcing our laws? I'm unwilling (for example) to see hospitals going out of business, reducing service quality while passing increased costs on to evreyone to provide basic medical care out of emergency rooms because the agribusinesses have uninsurable off-books workers. Or schools getting crushed with an overload of students. Or increased crime from multi-national gangs. Or continuing to let giant agribusinesses get away with maintaining an underclass of people to boost their bottom line. And no, I don't seriously believe produce prices are lower because of it unless you can convince me these companies are run by philanthropists who are trying oh so hard to give us the best products at the lowest prices (cough, wheeze, gasp). The only people benefitting from this are the rich, the Mexican government, and the very rich. \_ Um, the original argument started with illegal immigrants costing $2700 in gov't services. There was no balanced view of the economic benefit of their labor, so the $2700 number is a number that is useless. And if the economic benefit really is just to the rich, then you're right, that benefit should be discounted. \- I dont like saying complex public issues are "simple" but it seems to me not having serious sanctions against employers of illegal aliens [as well as the will and resources to enforce them] make this largely shadow boxing ... just like anti- aff action people who are ok with major departures from "metritorcratic admissions" such as legacies are totally disingenuous ... i'm not saying college admissions can be done like the medical residency match, but it could be a lot cleaner, if there was a serious desire to be so [i.e. it was goal directed rather than politics directed]. this idea of creating a second class labor pool shows it is business interests driving the elite side of the republican view [BUSHCO] regardless of the rest of the rhetoric. the sttements that these insidious illegal are too clever for tyson foods are ridiculous ... if anything those are the easiest employers to go after. the harder ones to do go after. the harder ones to go after are probaby the illegal baby- care workers of yuppie couples, and say irish programmers over staying their visas ... arguably not a security or economic problem for the US, but whether this is a prob depends on your view of equity and enforcement. |
| 2006/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Finance/Investment] UID:43552 Activity:nil |
7/2 The Underground Economy
http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/05apr/econ_underground.htm |
| 2006/7/1 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43546 Activity:nil |
7/1 Gang expert backs Tancredo charges
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50703 |
| 2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:43305 Activity:nil |
6/7 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060607/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush Bush says you must "learn values and history and language of America". I say to Bush, maybe you should learn something about world history, public speech, diplomacy, and anger management before telling other people what to do. \_ Does anyone else find it disturbing that the Office of Citizenship is being established under the Department of Homeland Security? \_ Nein, it makes perfekt sense to me. \_ Bush should, yes, maybe. What's wrong about forcing immigrants and candidates for citizenship to adopt the basic values of their host countries? Most European states have long adopted a really fuzzy and tolerant attitude towards immigrants' cultures, and it's a fucking catastrophe, particularly with Eastern European, African and many muslim arrivals--the attitude towards "oh we must understand and acknowledge them" is changing, fast, in a lot of places. You're talking about two different things. -John \_ Why must this be a case of "understand and acknowledge" vs. "expect them to conform to the laws and civics of our country"? When did the two become incompatible? \_ OK, maybe my post was poorly worded--most European countries (except maybe for the UK and France) have less of a melting pot tradition than the US, even if the extent of immigrants' readiness to mix in the US is often exagerrated. There's always been a lot of insecurity of how to deal with new immigrants, with the result that many governments have bent over backwards to try and accommodate and tolerate the quirks of immigrants from countries with social traditions diametrically opposed to what many consider the enlightened Western ideal. This has resulted in a marked unwillingness on the part of many immigrants to "conform to the laws and civics", as you astutely put it--forced marriages, ethnic clashes and honor killings are some of the examples of results of this kid-glove approach. -John \_ Right on. Where my hackles get raised is when "conform to the laws and civics" is interpreted to mean "learn English and become Christian or get out." \_ Maybe not become Christian, but they should learn English. It is the official language. It's not too much to ask. In reality, I suspect that the vast majority of immigrants *do* learn at least some English. What pisses me off is when I go somewhere and the signs are not in English. If you want Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs then fine, but make sure to have English ones, too. \_ Are you stupid or just stupid? \_ Actually, it's not the official language -- that's kind of the center of the debate. \_ Oh come on. English is the official language. It's what our effing Constitution was written in. We don't need some proclamation for it to be clear what the official language is. \_ Words mean something, young padawan. \_ Right, which is why all the words on highway signs are in English, for instance. Because there's no official language. \_ I think you're confused about what 'official' means in this context. Yes, signs are in english -- but that's not the same as mandating english from a legal standpoint (official government documents, etc). Perhaps The One True PSB can elucidate if he's interested -- but IIRC, India has actually mandated english as its official language. \_ What would be the difference if it was mandated? Everything is in English already. It would just be a rubber stamp. \_ Not strictly true - I *believe* most official government documents can be obtained in other languages in this country. It would be a pretty big difference if someone that couldn't speak english and was unable to read them had no participatory recourse. (grain of salt here -- I'm dredging this up from my first or second year studies at Ma Berkeley, so I could be making this all up). \_ Not all documents are and most (all?) government proceedings are conducted in English. If English was not "official" then you might see official documents printed in other languages, but not in English. That will never happen, because English is unofficially official already. \_ Um. You really are just stupid, aren't you. Do you know how many translators are employed by the government? Do you know how many state and local government offices, hospitals, etc have staffing requirements to make sure local populations can be served sufficiently in their own language. You don't know what you're rambling about. Shut the fuck up. \_ Will we see a day when there are *ENGLISH* translators? No, we won't. So you STFU. You need to take a fucking civics class. You and your axe _/ to grind belong somewhere in 19th century New York. To declare English "official" would mean exactly what you're suggesting below, which has no bearing on reality. Making English official would mean there would be no burden on the government to make accommodations for those who live here, even if born here (read citizens), who don't speak English. An obstacle like this against civic participation is anti-democratic. As I say, it is a burden on government, and as such is heavier where there are a larger spectrum of languages spoken and/or larger populations of other- language speakers (read large cities). But it is a burden they are required to bear. Just because english is most common does not in any way make it "official". And your complaint about "Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs" is so insanely laughable, you don't deserve any of my time after this. Fuck you. \_ There should be no burden on government to make accomodations. It should be entirely an option. You think it's okay if a largely Hispanic (for example) school district decides to teach Spanish as the only language?! I don't think that's okay at all! What if they are a small community of Maoris? Can they teach their native language exclusively with government money? I don't see where that does anyone a service. Schools should teach English, signs should be in English, government forms should be in English, and so on. We are not like Canada where everything is in French and English both. English is the de facto language *ALREADY*. What is 'making it official' going to change? Do you really want your kids learning Te Reo Maori in school instead of English? If you have lots of Spanish (or Chinese or whatever) speakers then make that language official *TOO* and teach them all by mandate in school, but English *must be* an official language in this country. Period. \_ My response got deleted, so I will summarize. You think it's okay for a town of largely Maori immigrants to teach Te Reo Maori (only) in their school district?! I don't and if I moved into that town I would sue. English needs to be an official language. You can argue that their should to be several official languages (Spanish?) but then *everything* must be mandated to be in Spanish also, including education, street signs, and all. You can't pick and choose which languages to translate while also denying English as the unofficial official language. English is basically the official language and anything else is done as a courtesy. \_ Hmm, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at, exactly. My point is if you're an immigrant with no english skills, being unable to get government documents in english is exclusionary, and *arguably* counter to some of the principles of our country. I'd be glad chat about this more offline if you're interested -- motd is already too bandwidthy, and I'm basically an ignorant idiot and would prefer not to add to the noise.... -mice \_ We aren't going to produce translations for every language in the world. However, we always make sure to produce an English version, which is often the sole version. If you live here you pretty much *have* to learn English as it is. It's what you/your kids will be taught in school, what the signs will be written in, and so on. English can be the official language w/o isolating immigrants. We can still produce translations based on demand. However, if, say, Spanish was official then we would *HAVE* to. As it is, I claim that English is already official because such things are *already* in English. \_ *shrug* Like I said - email me if you want talk about this more. -mice |
| 2006/6/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43299 Activity:nil |
6/7 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13165121 This is a sad precursor to November. Despite all the complaints and problems within the GOP, the number of Republican voters is still much greater than the number of Democrat voters. \_ yes ... much greater ... in a Republican district ... Busby is a weak candidate. I'm surprised she did as well as she did against a telegenic GOP person pushing an anti-immigration plank. \_ She was also taped encouraging illegal aliens to vote for her. "You don't need papers to vote.. we'll show you how.." http://csua.org/u/g2g (Not all in the link, i'll try to find the audio file) |
| 2006/6/5-9 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43278 Activity:nil |
6/4 http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/04/trivia_tidbit_o_3.html Republican cars: Hummer (52%R 23%D), Porsche (59%R 27%D), Democrat cars: Volvo (44%D 32%R), Mini-van's kinda weird-- Republicans tend to have more children, 3.5 on average versus 1.7 for the Democrats. \- an associate of mine at the FED was kinda amused to see a car listed by BERNANKE. he was apparently selling a Siena minivan via the FED WEEB. \_ Are you sure about that factoid? Most immigrants are Democrats. \_ Not the ones that start/own their own businesses \_ I dunno why, but the Porsche seems kinda weird--how about a Camaro instead? Or something with badly done window tinting and a moon roof? -John \- there is a saying something like economics/demographics trumps \- there is a saying something like demographics trumps stereotypes. meaning income type predictors generally win over "cultural stereotypes" like "brie eating liberals" ... my understanding is the "money <-> republican <-> brie" connection is better than "marin county liberal and berkeley connection is better than "marin county liberals and berkeley grad students <-> expensive cheese". so porsche drivers -> few std dev above mean income -> higher probability of being R. now if you just compare +$75k cars, it might be interesting to see the different R/D compositions. \_ Childbearing stat sounds familiar. Cite? |
| 2006/6/1-4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43252 Activity:nil |
6/1 Conservatives rejoice! Horowitz is pushing a bill to renew the
federal Higher Education Act to make sure LibUral professors
don't teach the wrong stuff.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060601/ts_usatoday/exliberalnavigatesright
\_ "Horowitz acknowledges his small staff can't confirm every
incident it receives, and his fact-checkers can be "very
loose with the truth." But he mostly dismisses the
criticisms as inconsequential. " |
| 2006/5/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43134 Activity:nil |
5/20 The $64 Billion Question
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21996
\_ Yes jblack. Thank you for pointing out this article. It says
illegals take in more $ than they put into the system,
and we seriously need to get rid of welfare and other social
programs YOU as a hard working American don't personally need
and don't want to pay for, because that is communism. Is there
anything else you'd like us ignorant liberals to learn from
freerepublic, frontpagemag, and other similar patriotic
web sites?
\_ How about learning how Mexico deals with the same problem
(immigration, both legal and illegal). The Mexican
government is full of hypocrites. |
| 2006/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43117 Activity:nil |
5/19 Guest Worker Amnesty Passes Senate
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14964
Get ready for 40-60 million new citizens with an average income
of $20-30k and a 3rd grade education. |
| 2006/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42889 Activity:nil |
5/2 So, did the "Day without an Immigrant" have any effect? If it
^\_ illegal
\- http://csua.org/u/fos --psb
hadn't been on the news, I never would've noticed. Maybe in LA?
Anyone know?
\- i think the point was to get on the news and in the motd.
\_ yes. i realized i can do my own landscaping myself..
\_ yes. Traffic was awsome. 405 in S Cal yesterday was nice and
clear and moving at a whopping 40MPH when it would have moved
at 4MPH on a normal day, 24x7. I wish people would protest more.
\_ Less BEANER vehicles means less breakdowns in the middle
of the lane, which means less traffic jam. It was quite a
drive not seeing a single gardener driving at 50MPH on
the left lane or getting stuck on the shoulder. The protest
convinced me that less BEANER==better quality of life. -racist
\_ Traffic going into/out of SF was similarly clear.
\_ the food service place that my company provides lunch through
was very understaffed and way behind schedule. - nyc sodan
\_ what I found very funny is that Latinos/Mexicans think this is
a sort of threat. *AND* they think they will be the main
beneficaries of the reform. I have a feeling that if US ever
relax the immigration rule, it's the Asians who will flood the
gate. |
| 2006/5/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42881 Activity:nil |
5/1 Please don't (yeah right) turn this into a pro/anti-immigration
flame war, but I am genuinely curious: would the immigrant groups
striking/demonstrating/boycotting/whatevering be happier if all
illegal immigrants were given green cards/citizenship, and (along with
their employers) made to pay taxes/SS? -John
\_ There isn't one answer to that question. But many immigrant
groups are advocating for amnesty for illegals currently in the
U.S., which would have that effect. -tom
\_ Well, Mecha and La Raza appear to be advocating returning the
southern states to Mexico.
\_ I think this whole immigration issue is being blurred on purpose.
Employ illegal immigrants is one of the worse form of corporate
welfare: employer is able to exploit cheap labor who has no
bargaining power, while passing down the cost of illegal immigrants
(school, health care, etc) to the government. If you look at this
whole thing from "corporate welfare" angle, then, you probably would
agree with me that yes, all illegal would *LOVE* to have
work permit/permanant residence/citizenship given, but that is not
going to happen for one simple reason: Those illegal, cheap
labor will no longer cheap when they become a legal labor.
Employers would have to pay health insurance and taxes on employing
these labors, which defeat the purpose of hiring those illegal
immigrants at first place.
\- well it is also a benefit to white collar people who hire
them for services. re: your last point, that is why the
corporate section of BUSHCO has split with hick BUSHCO ...
the hicks want them out [and are opposed to outsourcing too]
while the corporate types want to have an official class of
second class citizens.
\_ I would view white collar hiring of nanny and gardners are
also a form of "corporate welfare," except individual end up
paying more taxes on supporting those illegals than the
actual per-hour wages we paid.
While it's clear that Republicans are split, I am not even
sure what is Democrat's position on this issue. |
| 2006/4/26-5/2 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42844 Activity:nil |
4/26 The US has one of the lowest rates of inter-generational mobility
(rags to riches) in the industrialized world.
http://csua.org/u/fmw (yahoo news)
\_ This is great news for George W. Bush and his friends.
\_ FUCK BU$H FUCK AMERIKKKA FUCK KKKORPORAPETION$$$ |
| 2006/4/7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42717 Activity:very high |
4/6 I'm confused. If all the illegals become citizens and we know that
Americans won't do the jobs the illegals have been doing then who
will do those jobs? Won't granting them citizenship kill the
economy just the same as kicking them out?
\_ it's an election year. I don't think people are trying to solve
the problem. If US pardon this wave of immigrant, 5 years
down the road US would have to pardon another wave of immigrants.
Once we pardoned these immigrants and grant them legal working
permit, these people can start to demand minimum wages and
force employers to follow the federal labor standards. If
an employer want to keep it competitive, he would have to to
look for more illegal immigrants to exploit. and the cycle
continues..
\_ Hence the strategery.
\_ I am an immigrant myself. I am a bit angry at pardoning those
illegals mainly because it is not fair for those who patiently
waited in line and follow the system.
\_ Perhaps we should simply brand them, like livestock. Either
you can enter legally, or you can be branded American.
you can enter legally, or you can be branded American. Oh,
and if they speak English passably, brand is "USA", otherwise,
"Estados Unidos"
\_ Comment on the English-speaking part. I managed to go
through high school, college and grad school here in USA
with poor English constantly being riddiculed on MOTD.
Does it ever occur to you that there just might be something
wrong with the public education system? Do you know that
people in USA gives out immigrants IQ test in ENGLISH to
those who just came here, marked them as retard and toss
them into the worse classes available in the school?
In my particular case, it took hard work, luck, and bribe
so I can attend regular English classes in high school
so I have a shot at the UC system? And I was living in
a relatively well-off suburbs with a relatively good
high school in California.
\_ my gf moved here from Poland when she was 9, and says
ESL classes more than a year or two are stupid, you
pick up English from immersion, you just gotta learn
it to get ahead in the United States.
\_ Sorry, I was writing in the tradition of "A Modest
Proposal". I was not seriously advocating branding
illegal immigrants, nor seriously advocating torturing
those with bad English even more. Just like Jonathan
Swift wasn't seriously advocating eating children.
\_ BABY EATER!
\_ Are you aware that so-called immigrant rights people are
the reason you ended up in shitty classes? Bi-lingual
education advocates would have all immigrants learning
nothing useful to advance in society. You have reason to
be angry. You should direct it appropriately. In an
English-only environment you wouldn't have had to bribe
anyone to get into the classes you needed to advance.
\_ Exactly. My parents are both immigrants and the
system doesn't cater to them (not even the DMV test
is in their native language) and they are better
off for it. Catering to Spanish-speakers doesn't
do them any favors. I remember reading a poll once
where Mexican immigrants said they *wanted* their
kids in English classes and not bi-lingual ed
classes, but the limousine liberals ignored that. |
| 2006/4/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42710 Activity:moderate |
4/6 Deal Would Put Millions on Path to Citizenship
http://csua.org/u/fg7 (nytimes.com)
Tancredo / Pence 2008
\_ curious... what is wrong with deporting 12 million of illegal
immigrants?
\_ I believe the strategery is for Dubya to publicize his guest worker
program as much as possible to obtain Latino support, but count on
the House to make sure nothing changes (no guest worker program,
illegal immigrants remain illegal and still provide cheap labor)
illegal immigrants remain illegal and still providing cheap labor)
to retain conservative support and to not be blamed for the fucking
of the economy.
\_ Here's the reward for breaking the law.
\_ You know in the UK if you live there for 10 years, legal or not,
you get citizenship. (It only takes 5 if you are legal.) These
sorts of things are not uncommon.
\_ pls post this to http://freerepublic.com and watch yourself get
banned in < 1 hour. Try here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1610298/posts
\_ URL please?
\_ Well, no. I refer you to the British Home Office
http://csua.org/u/fgd . "276B. The requirements to be met by
an applicant for INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN on the ground of
long residence in the United Kingdom are that: (i) (a) he has
had at least 10 years continuous lawful residence in the United
Kingdom; or (b) he has had at least 14 years continuous
residence in the United Kingdom." [emphasis added]. So 1) you
got the time frame wrong, and 2) the long residence applicant
get an "indefinite leave to remain" and not "citizenship".
residence in the United Kingdom... (ii) having regard to the
public interest there are no reasons why it would be
undesirable..." [emphasis added]. So 1) you got the time frame
wrong, 2) the long residence applicant get an "indefinite
leave to remain" and not "citizenship", and 3) subject to
discretion of the Home Office. |
| 2006/4/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa] UID:42687 Activity:nil |
4/5 Harry Reid, 12 years ago
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1hr.htm
\_ what, no child molestation charges?? |
| 2006/4/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42677 Activity:nil |
4/2 "...He promised that if elected, he would put illegal immigrants
in a tent city on the border and use their labor to build the
wall. Goldwater is a nephew of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater."
"Minuteman leaders have said that all the group's members have
been screened to weed out members of racist organizations."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/01/minutemen.return.ap |
| 2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42627 Activity:nil |
4/3 Mexican wealthy play American taxpayers for suckers
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/mexicoisrich.html
\_ If only we'd annexed Mexico back after the Mexican-American War.
\_ we'll be greeted with rose petals and open arms
the illegal immigrant is the WMD today
\_ You lead the way, pinche cabron Walker. |
| 2006/3/31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42573 Activity:high 50%like:42576 |
3/31 Odd questions about Carroll's release: http://csua.org/u/fdz (From Washington Post, with citations from NY Times) \_ Wow, a dupe only 2 posts above the original! |
| 2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42548 Activity:nil |
3/30 George Will on immigration:
http://tinyurl.com/kfm3o
I agree with most of what he says. I was hating on George Will for a
long time after he wrote that we should pave over Alaska just because
he found environmentalists annoying.
\_ I basically agree with that. Immigration needs to be controlled,
but making illegal entry a felony is not helpful. We also need to
improve the system to make it as easy as possible for people we do
want. (And we need to be honest about what that means.) -jrleek
\_ I think Will's dodging the painful truth (that we need to provide
an economic disincentive to illegally hiring illegal workers) in
favor of handwaving over something that most people, left and right,
agree with, namely, that we need a solution that protects the
borders without marginalizing the immigrant class. And his dig at
Soc Sec is just petty. |
| 2006/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42539 Activity:nil |
3/29 http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1605932/posts Mexican takeover |
| 2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Reference/Law/Visa, Finance/Investment] UID:42535 Activity:nil |
3/29 http://weneedafence.com I personally don't care about the immigration issue but I'd like to buy stocks in companies that make fences. What are some companies I should look into? |
| 2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42534 Activity:kinda low |
3/29 Pictures of Angry Mexicans:
link:tinyurl.com/gahoh
link:tinyurl.com/k9rn5
link:tinyurl.com/e6aqs
\_ Maybe the guy with the "indigenous people" sign should have
checked with all those Indians first. -John
\_ Er, Mexicans are just as indigenous as the Indians here.
(There are Spanish immigrants in Mexico too, but it's not
like here where the immigrants pretty much replaced the
local population. It's easy to tell the difference: Spanish
people are tall, white, and European-looking. Mexicans are
shorter, darker, and not.)
\_ They're not all white and Euro-looking. Lots of swarthier
ones from their time with the Moors.
\_ That's funny, the last time I was in the middle of the
Yucatan, the people there didn't look much like any of my
Mexican friends from college/HS, or the Mexican guys
from DF I work with now. Maybe they changed them or
something. -John
\_ Spanish descent. Gringo v. Indio. Round MMCCXVII. FIGHT!
\_ I'm sure the Mexicans you know would say that. The Indians
would have something entirely different to say. If the
Mexicans are indigenous then so are all the white people
in the US.
\_ I don't know man, the Spanish seems to have breeded
extensively with the Indians under their rule. Whereas,
in north america, Indians were mostly just sent to
reservations. While Mexicans don't look the same as
Indians, they look different from whites too. They
are mixed.
\_ The CIA World Factbook agrees: they list Mexico as
"mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or
predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%".
You're right, though, I shouldn't have said they
were "just as indigenous as the Indians".
\_ I don't know, isn't a mexican claiming to be indigenous to
California by virtue of being indigenous to Mexico kinda like
a Chinese guy claiming to be indigenous to France?
\_ Is an idiot still an idiot if they can't recognize
their idiocy?
\_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
\_ At least they finally figured out that they should be waving US
flags, no Mexican flags.
\_ Must've run out of Mexican flags. Next shipment arrives next
week from HK. |
| 2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42533 Activity:moderate |
3/29 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189402,00.html "Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language." -Roosevelt \_ Yes, we know, they're all horrible people. The ones in the pics below are pretty disagreeable. Now please stop with the fucking freeper spam, please. -John \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to those who employ illegal immigrants. Once those people discover they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to come to USA. \_ Who would that benefit? -tom \_ cut down the illegal immigration will benefit us all. when I say that, I mean price for food, housing and child care will finally refelct the "true" market value, which I suspect many of people won't able to bear on their own. When people discover that price of food and construction and child care suddenly risen by 40%, then, invading another country for WMD half way across the world may become a secondary concern. kngharv \_ Woo. So you are saying that Americans would be better off if many people can't afford the price of food, housing, and child care? And that the Iraq war was caused by illegal aliens? Put your analyst on danger money. -tom \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have. \_ What laws? \_ See? How quick that article trots out the "jobs Americans won't do". Stupid fucking bitch. (Actually, the article also uses "American's". And this is supposed to be a professional publication?) \_ just levy 100,000 of fine + 1 yr of jail time per violation to those who employ illegal immigrants. Once those people discover they can't find work here, they won't bother to risk their lives to come to USA. \_ Better yet, enforce the laws we now have. \_ I like how the article's immediately followed by "Paris is Burning" Gee... why's that? Could it be... the exact sort of guest worker program that's being championed? |
| 2006/3/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:42526 Activity:nil |
3/29 Sweden burns?
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938
\_ More like, "Right Wing Alarmists Make Shit Up."
\_ Here's the variation from NYT. "Islam on the Outskirts of
the Welfare State" ttp://tinyurl.com/qhosl
Are you still so certain that the http://brusselsjournal.com
article is pure fabrication? - !op
\_ Of course he is. It is incompatible with his worldview,
therefore it is false.
\_ The "variation from NYT" doesn't paint a Sweden in danger
of imminent collapse from Islamic immigrants; the BJ
article, by noted anti-Islamist Fjordman does. So, yeah,
I think Fjordman's making shit up.
\_ we need a goddamn all-out crusade against islam. stop all these
pussyfooting excuses of terrorism. |
| 2006/3/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42491 Activity:nil |
3/28 Open letter to the media re: "Immigrants"
http://alisavaldesrodriguez.blogspot.com/2006/03/how-stupid-are-us-media.html
\_ Interesting article. Too bad 1/2 of the Americans will ignore
it because it's written by a Mexican or it's too liberal to read.
\_ Can't argue with that. Well, except 16.
\_ Sure you can.
Of her point 1: No, 40% of the Hispanic population was foreign-
born. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html
Of point 3: No, 40% foreign-born, and there are at least 4.8M
more illegal Hispanic immigrants. So combining the 2 stats,
accounting for the exclusion of non-Mexican Hispanics in the
4.8M illegal immigrants, it's pretty hard to say conclusively
one way or the other whether a majority of Latinos in the US
are immigrants. link:csua.org/u/fct
Of point 4: Yes, but legal immigrants are dominated by people
from Asia and Latin America. In 2004, of 945K immigrants,
314K are from Asia and 385K are from non-Canada Americas.
While it is interesting that there are 100K Nigerians living
in Houston, that is just so much trivia. A discussion on
immigration is a discussion about Asians and Hispanics.
Since 68% of illegal aliens come from Mexico alone, a discussion
about illegal immigration is a discussion about Mexicans and
other Hispanics.
Of point 9: Given point 3, this is highly unlikely.
Of point 13: http://csua.org/u/fcw [usatoday] |
| 2006/3/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42480 Activity:high |
3/27 I can't stand that mantra that I keep hearing from politicians,
that immigrants do jobs "Americans just won't do". It's such
utter bullshit. Americans aren't doing them under the conditions
that the illegals do them, full stop. Fucking imbeciles.
\_ that just doesn't have the same ring to it.
\_ What gets me about all this is what they're *really* saying is,
"We love slave labor". How can anyone be in favor of a system
that *requires* having an underclass of powerless underpaid
people? In 1986 there was a general amnesty. Did that solve
anything? Here we are 20 years later in the same situation but
with even more people. Will we do this again in 2026? I suspect,
"We love slave labor!" wouldn't have the same ring to it either.
\_ Yep. Without all that slave labor cotten prices will skyrocket!
Wait a minute, why are most of my clothes 100% cotton?
\_ I suggest you start by setting a good example for everyone, going
into the kitchen the next time you go into a restaurant, and
giving 20 bucks to some of the dishwashers, prep cooks, busboys
and other staff, many of whom are likely to be illegals. I think
this is pretty great of you. It probably comes nowhere close to
matching the conditions under which Americans would do them, but
it's a good start, wouldn't you think? -John
\_ Yeah, that's what we need, another "good will gesture" instead
of a real solution. Folks, the primary reason why there are so
many illegal immigrants willing to work for substandard wages
is merely one of supply and demand. An illegal immigrant
costs not merely less in terms of a per hour calculation, but
also in terms of paying payroll taxes and the dreaded workman's
comp. It currently costs an employer at least twice as much to
properly hire an individual vs. an illegal if you were to pay
them the same wage. If you really want to get rid of illegal
immigration then you'd have to get rid of a lot of the tax
that employers have to pay. In addition, you'd have to basically
get rid of the minimum wage laws. Neither, of course, will
happen, and therefore illegal immigration will not merely
continue, but continue to thrive. As the old saying goes
you can't legislate morality, and in a sense, wage laws
are morality laws (for other failed experiments in moral
legislation, check out prohibition, the current "war on drugs",
and software piracy).
\_ Maybe, but you sure can cut it back. People have always
tried to cheat on their taxes too, but somehow governments
have always collected enough to function. Well, not always
but you know what I mean.
but you know what I mean. Most businessmen are not interested
in breaking the law in a serious fashion, so if employing
illegals was made a jail time kind of crime, it would
mostly stop.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0308-20.htm
\_ I was being sarcastic, in reference to my opinion that many
people screaming "get rid of all illegal immigrants" are
probably not aware of how much the prices of a lot of the
goods and services they take for granted are affected by the
willingness of illegal immigrants to provide them for
peanuts. Note that I'm not saying the presence of illegal
immigrants is good or bad, just that this is something
to consider before ranting. -John
\_ No, that isn't something to consider. The prices of goods
and services is completely irrelevant on this issue. I'm
not willing to say "well this is bad but hey, look at the
prices of goods and services!" And besides that, I'm not
convinced that spectre of prices shooting up is even
accurate. In the overall picture the economy may stand to
benefit with more wages in more legal jobs, more consumers,
and more productivity and efficiency. I'm in favor of
strict employment enforcement but no minimum wage. Instead
of min. wage, if we want to ensure a minimum living std.
then that should be done through a welfare program people
can apply for. I don't know where you were going with the
giving $20 to busboys thing. All I'm saying is Americans
WILL get these jobs done, they just need to pay enough and
improve the equipment and working conditions. And all that
effort ultimately benefits everyone. -op
\_ My point with the "$20 to busboys thing" is that
currently, illegals do the work you are so keen on
Americans doing under amazingly crappy conditions, long
hours and low wages, none of which would be tenable
if you got rid of them. Once again, I am not defending,
excusing or impugning what you call a "social evil",
just looking at it as a current given in neutral
economic terms. Getting rid of this phaenomenon will
raise prices, period. Whether it would benefit the
economy is possible, albeit debatable, but prices
_would_ rise. -John
\_ Your point is well-made but should not be used as an excuse
to continue this social evil. Just because something is
hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. --erikred
\_ I'm ok paying twice as much for my lettuce and
strawberries or cutting into a business owner's bottom
line. Slave labor is not the answer.
\_ "Slave labor" is really not an appropriate term.
The illegals want to be here and want to work.
Closing the border and enforcing immigration and
employment laws more strongly would be a negative for
the people who are currently doing the work. There
are aspects of the situation which make it easy to
exploit them, but they are not slaves. If your
concern is really for the workers, the thing to do
would be to loosen the immigration laws so they are
more able to come here legally and have legal
protection. -tom
\_ I agree that this is probably the best solution.
Minimum wage should then be abolished, too. The
resulting wage deflation won't be good for a lot
of Americans, though. Still, that's how our
country was built and what made it so great. --dim
\_ Your free market approach to labor and wages
works only as long as there are still places to
go if you don't want to be a factory-slave
(cf. expansion West as the Great Steam Valve
during the period "our country was built").
We reached the limits of that system at the end
of the 19th century. We need new solutions, not
reversions to feudalism. --erikred
\_ You think the free market is a form of
feudalism?!?!?!
\_ So, what you're saying is that you're a
communist.
\_ So, dim, you couldn't be sufficed with one
pointless retort? You had to do two?
\_ I didn't write both of those, you git.
I am curious how a free market economy
is a reversion to feudalism. --dim
\_ I think "slave labor" is the right term. You can use
"serf" or "indentured servant" or whatever other
euphemism you'd like but they're all just another
way of exploiting people. The H1b program is a
perfect example of that. Bring people here from
other countries, pay them under scale, work them
hard and put them in a position where they have no
job mobility. I don't see how having 'half-way'
citizens who have the right to be underpaid and
overworked is a good thing for anyone but the stock
holders. Let them come here as citizens with full
rights or don't.
\_ There are plenty of exploitative work
relationships which don't involve
slavery. "Slave: 1. A person who is held
in bondage to another; one who is wholly
subject to the will of another; one who
is held as a chattel; one who has no
freedom of action, but whose person and
services are wholly under the control of
another." Immigrant workers are not slaves;
they are disadvantaged in a number of
ways, but they have freedom of action. -tom
\_ Why did you omit the other meanings?
from "dict slavery":
2. A condition of subjection or submission characterized by
lack of freedom of action or of will.
3: work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay
You can claim whatever you want but you're
just plain wrong tom.
4: whatever I want it to mean when I'm aguing with people
so I don't have to be precise or clear in my language.
\_ If you're just going to quote the dictionary
while ignoring what I said, whatever. I made
it clear the issue was not the specific word
chosen to describe the situation so much as
the underlying situation itself, but hey, as
long as you can get cheap produce, anything
goes. Everyone has freedom of action, but some
have more legal freedom of action than others.
\_ pardon me. I interpreted the phrase
"I think 'slave labor' is the right term"
as meaning you think "slave labor" is the
right term.
-tom
\_ "You can use 'indentured servant' ... but
they're all just another way of
exploiting people".
\_ All ways of exploiting people are
equivalent to slavery? -tom
\_ I'm not going to get sucked into
rhetorical games while you duck the
real issues of using exploited
powerless people so Americans can
get cheap lettuce, child care and
unskilled construction.
\_ You must be confusing me with
someone who thinks the current
situation is a good idea.
It's not. It's just not
slavery. -tom
\_ I'm going to side with tom
on this for the following
reason: real slavery still
exists in this country.
If an exploited farm worker
is called a "slave", the word
loses meaning for the sex
slaves who fit the
old-fasioned definition.
\_ You can side with tom's
rhetorical misinterpret-
ation or you can read what
I actually said. If you
want cheap lettuce, that's
on your soul, not mine.
\_ Here is my question of the day. Why not just build a Great Wall
armed with machine gun tower and landmines? At the same time, why
don't we throw employer in jail if we found he/she hires an illegal?
why not implement a database look up so the employer can check the
authenticity of social security number in real time (similar to
what Visa/Master card has done?). I am not disagreeing with John
on the fact that there is a real economic impact on getting rid of
illegal immigrants. But my arguement is that the presence of
illegal immigrants actually makes people look in other way when
deal with real problems.
For example, the issue of child care become less
problematic if I can hire some illegal immigrants to do the work.
If I have to pay 20-30 per hour for a nanny, I probably will harass
my congressman to try to help me to resolve this problem in a real
way, etc.
\_ Been tried, didn't work. The Mongols just brought ladders. -John
\_ I agree with you. However, things should be done gradually.
\_ gradually? haha, very funny. DO you know that there are
US congressmen in China right now demanding devaluating
Chinese Yuan 40% overnight right now?
A sudden elimination of illegal immigrants may majorly
screw up many businesses, causes inflation and interest rates
to shoot up and send the US economy into a shock. It would
also increase the trade deficit.
\_ Except that the Senate subcommittee version of the bill is
not aiming at ending illegal immigration. It seeks to expand
the cheap labor pool and create an 'out' for employers to
*legally* abuse people. The abuse becomes codified in a
system of law. I find this far worse than what we have now
where at least there is a hope some future generation will
figure out the right thing to do since the current system is
such a dismal failure. Codifying failure is just ugh... I'm
done. |
| 2006/3/27-29 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42472 Activity:moderate |
3/27 http://csua.org/u/fco "Due to its size, the protest shocked the American media. A wave of 500,000 people pouring through Los Angeles is one of the largest protests in the history of the whole country. Thus, the protests have been reported as an extraordinary reaction to events in American politics. But they are not extraordinary at all. They are just the typical way that governments are influenced in many Latin American nations. "What the protests truly represent is the colonization of America by the Latin style of politics. Rally, demonstration, march and protest are the tools of the politically dispossessed. They carry with them the intrinsic threat that is always associated with the gathering of large crowds in acts of political demonstration. And they are standard fair in the lopsided politics of many foreign nations, including Mexico." \_ props to George Will on this issue: "Morality without practicality is immorality." \_ The INS shoulda posted up at the protest and started carding people. \_ Deine pässe, bitte. \_ Why do Republicans hate democracy? ...and brown people? \_ Why you do troll? ...poorly? \_ It's not a troll. It is, however, rhetorical. This racist spew is truly disgusting. \_ One guy gets quoted and all people of the same party are evil racist stalinists? It's a troll. Sounds, smells, looks, walks and talks like a troll. It collects tolls at bridges. It's a troll. \_ _This guy_ is spewing racist crap. I think you would find more R's than others who would think it sounds reasonable. I also think there are many other ways that R's dis democracy to a greater extent than others. This columnist has the distinction of crossing both lines. Republicans == racist was your leap, not mine. \_ Ok, I'll ask out right: do you think Republicans are racist? Assume that Republican = follows the party line. \_ I think everyone is racist. Period. I think many people struggle against it, some more successfully than others. This columnist is failing his struggle. Sensenbrenner failed his struggle long ago and gave up. \_ let me see... white can buy American oil company, but yellow can't. white and yellow can operate sea ports, but brown arab people can't... hmm... i don't know. it is pretty even so far. \_ Only Republicans were against the Uncol and UAE deals? Hmm.. maybe you need to take off those blinders. \_ Yes, if a country oppresses its poor and powerless, it eventually leads to tension and strife. Protests are exactly that, protests. \_ The threatened legislation would do more than oppress poor and powerless people. Just wait till the senior engineer on your project who happens to be a German or Korean or Indian citizen suddenly turns up in jail with a *felony* arrest because he fucked up some paperwork. This kind of shit will destroy American science if it's not turned around. Regardless of how you may feel about poor mexican immigrants, this xenophobia represents a clear and present danger to the continued technical dominance of the united states. I've already seen top European scientists turn down U.S. offers partly because they were tired of being treated like criminals in the post-911 paranoia. \_ 1. Poor Mexican *illegal* immigants. 2. This happened to one of my girlfriend's film students. He went on vacation to Mexico and ended up in jail in Texas (and was later deported). No issues if you immigrate like you should. Both my parents came here from Europe. My dad came illegally and was later deported (and then came back legally). Why do Latin American immigrants think they are so special? --dim \_ You either don't know what you're talking about or are intentionally stating falsehoods. None of the staff scientists, grad students or post docs I work with are illegal immigrants from Latin America. But I would say that due to the vile idiocy of U.S. immigration laws and the incompetence and stupidity of the people in the embasies who carry out those laws more than half of the scientists I know have had serious problems with their visa status which caused them to either get stuck outside of the U.S. or to be "illegal" for some number of days/weeks while the paperwork got straightened out. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about illegal mexican immigrants, but when a bunch of flag-waving republican morons decide they're going to start throwing scientists in jail it threatens everyone. \_ Well, I don't know. jblack seems to like it. Less competition with the minorities he despise of. \_ Why are you blaming the laws when it's obvious that the scientists are at fault here? Since I work for NASA, I can concur that 'foreign nationals' are treated poorly here, although not as poorly as when our guys go to, say, France. However, if they end up in jail because their paperwork wasn't in order then whose fault is that? \_ I just don't know what to say to that. First of all, I'm guessing you're a sysadmin and not a real scientist, which would explain your attitude. Second of all, if you actually bothered to talk to foreign scientists you'd learn that there is a random element to the visa process that goes beyond just doing the paperwork the way you're told, and can lead to month long delays getting back into the U.S. for reasons that are *never* explained. Third of all, our country is number one in the world in science largely because these people *want* to be here. The losers will always be willing to work here, but the top guys are all turning down offers from other countries when they come here, and if you start throwing absent minded academics in jail for not filling out some \_ I just don't know what to say to that. First of all, I'm guessing you're a sysadmin and not a real scientist, which would explain your attitude. Second of all, if you actually bothered to talk to foreign scientists you'd learn that there is a random element to the visa process that goes beyond just doing the paperwork the way you're told, and can lead to month long delays getting back into the U.S. for reasons that are *never* explained. Third of all, our country is number one in the world in science largely because these people *want* to be here. The losers will always be willing to work here, but the top guys are all turning down offers from other countries when they come here, and if you start throwing absent minded academics in jail for not filling out some \_ maybe we should get rid of traffic laws. those absent minded scientists might be inclined to speed, or drive on the wrong side of the road, or something, which might get their license revoked, interfering with their ability to go to their scientist lab. they might get fed up with it and go home and then we are doomed. Or the dimwits might forget to pay for stuff at the store. Or maybe the retards will drive over some children on the way to work while pondering the frequency of baldness among condom users. \_ I support the death penalty for car drivers. \_ I support the death penalty for whiny wanna-be extremists. forms, they're not going to come here, and I can't blame them. I could say something about what most scientists think about their local sysadmins, but I'll hold my tongue. \_ Maybe they can go do research in Europe. LOL! Having talked to 'real scientists' who are working in Europe (and Japan) I can tell you that if they go there then they get what they deserve. Your complaint is about the process, not about the law. As for the rest of your comments, you're obviously a poseur asshole who thinks much too highly of himself. You should hear what most scientists say about their fellow scientists! \_ And finally, fuck you. I've had enough flame wars with your dumb ass over the years to know when to quit. \_ I figured that you were full of shit and didn't know what you were talking about. Now I don't even have to guess. I'm going to bet that you have absolutely no idea what life in academia is like in Europe. You're just pissed because your advisor spent the weekend in jail because he figured that being an important scientist was enough to get him back into the USA from Budapest. \_ Fuck you. \_ So you insulted an entire segment of the tech world on a tech message board of a tech student group and then get all pissy when you got corrected and the poor dumb sysadmin/non-scientist didn't bow down to your superior godly scientistness? For someone so snarky you've got a really thin skin. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. --someone else \_ And fuck you as well. \_ And fuck you as well. Let me clarify. I hate sysadmins, I hate academics, I hate other scientists, I hate dipshit net dorks who use the word "snarky", I hate fat stupid SoCal republicans, and I hate you. So fuck off. If fuckwits like dim want to destroy America they can go ahead. I have contingency plans for that. \_ Oh my God! You have a career in comedy if science doesn't work out! --dim \_ My career in science will last just long enough to earn the money to buy the land I need to get off the grid and away from you fuckers. You won't take me without a fight. In 21 months I'll be trolling the motd from a fortified compound in a remote location via sattelite uplink. Did I mention fuck you? Oh, yeah. Fuck you. \_ At first I thought I was going to be Thin Skinned Guy's #1 Fan, then you turned into Weak Troll Guy. --sad that Thin Skinned Guy was really Weak Troll Guy and unworthy of fandom \_ Fuck you. \_ I was thinking something similar when watching the protests over high gas prices in SE Asia. It's a very naive and ineffective form of influencing government. In many cases (as with gas prices) it's not really clear what the government is supposed to do in response. I don't see it as very sophisticated, or even effective, politics. \_ Did Vincent Fox secretly sponsors the protests? \_ i thought Thailand government is at blink of collapse due to massive protest, no?? \_ You can bet when they gather to protest pending legislation, that legislators pay attention. Especially in that kind of numbers. \_ Maybe, but if it was more routine (as in, say, Latin America) it would be less effective. \_ really? didn't people power rid the filipines of Marcos? \_ Did Vincent Fox sponsor the protests? \_ I was talking to a Mexican guy I know, and I said something about Bush being a dumbass. He said that you can only call Bush a dumbass if you've never heard Fox give a speech in Spanish. He claimed that Fox raises politician stupidity to new heights. \_ So when the Promise Keepers gathered on The Mall, was that an intrinsic theat, too? \_ No. The Million Man March, however... \_ Which was not even a Million. \_ Estimates ranged from, what 470k to 1.04M? \_ fyi, this was the 2nd largest protest in American history, second to the pro-choice march in DC in '04 with attendance of ~ 1 mill \_ BTW, I live 8 miles from downtown LA and didn't even notice anything until I saw the news. In short, who cares about how many protested? It all gets the same PR whether it's 8, 80, or 800,000. \_ Sure it was. But how many were U.S. citizens? This is important distinction. \_ Having laws that are not enforced is worse than having no laws. I think the best way to stop illegal immigration is to \_ How do you feel about the speed limit? \_ speed limit is a good example of the above claim. punish the employers who hire them, coupled with deportation of the illegal immigrants. I support the protests against stupid inhumane ineffective laws targetting exclusively the illegal immigrants. What we have today with a economic carrot asking them to come and unenforceable laws that try to prevent them from coming is stupid. We need to take away the carrot, or make it only available to those who come legally. punish the employers who hire them. \_ You can away some carrots, but there's too many rabbits and they'll eat anything they can find and they will multiply like crazy until they run out of food. \_ it's like pigs vs rabbits. the pigs don't wanna do any work, but just want to eat and get fat. yet, the pigs are messy and leave leftovers all over the place, and their are too lazy to clean up, so the rabbits come and eat them. |
| 2006/3/26 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42446 Activity:nil |
3/26 http://www.wehategringos.com/whg/index.php |
| 2006/3/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42440 Activity:nil |
3/26 Freepers react to Los Angeles immigrants' rights protest
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1603132/posts
\_ Earth calling jblack. We're waiting for your anti-immigrant
rant^H^H^H^Hspeech
\_ Looks like an invading army poised for conquest
of the southwest. |
| 2006/3/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42435 Activity:nil |
3/24 Immigration rallies draw thousands:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies
\_ "Hundreds of the students, some carrying Mexican flags..."
What message were they trying to send by flying Mexican flags?
I suspect it's not one that would make people sympathetic.
\_ One lady claims she's married to an illegal alien. Huh? If
you're legal, you can get you husband in legalally too. It's a
pain, but then you'd be legal. I'm not sympathetic. |
| 2006/3/25 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42425 Activity:nil |
3/24 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies Hello, my name is jblack and I approve this message. Get the hell outa my country you illegal immigrants. |
| 2006/3/14-16 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42235 Activity:moderate |
3/14 Progressives are so much less likely to have children. Conservatism
to rule for decades to come. We're screwed. Really screwed.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060314/cm_usatoday/theliberalbabybust
\_ Isn't it ironic that those who make the biggest deal of
evolution, fail its only test so pathetically? --Alanis
\_ The basic fallacy here is the idea that children always have the
values of their parents. This is demonstrably false.
\_ I'm your number one fan! That's such a great phrase! I think
you should use it at least 3 times per motd!
--Basic Fallacy Guy's #1 Fan
\_ Please demonstrate, with statistics and not with anecdotes.
please.
\_ Are social mores the same as they were 100 years ago?
\_ |R' - R| < |R' - Dnom|, where R' = f(R), but |R' - R| != 0.
\_ C'mon, all you need is one example to disprove an "always".
You still want one example?
\_ Fair enough. But you're still in trouble so long as it's
more heritable than the nominal D/R split.
\_ '50s = Prudes
'60s = Hippies
'90s = Old hippies
'00s = ?
We already have one example of Prudes producing Hippies.
You need to argue that there is an overwhelming force
which prevents Hippies from being produced from Prudes
again.
\_ Now, there are certainly anecdotal examples of '60s
hippies turning capitalist and conservative in middle
age. Again, please post statistics and not anecdotes.
\_ You want statistics on the production of Hippies
from Prudes in the '60s? You don't believe this
to have occurred without statistics?
\_ I want statistics that says political
attitude is or is not heritable. Here, I'll
make your job easier for you.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/beliefs.html
"[T]he idea that a behavioral system has a
strong genetic component is hardly an issue
anymore", or how about "the data suggest an
interplay of both genetic and environmental
factors in people's attitudes toward, for
example, sex, politics and religion,
with environment playing a stronger role".
Now, where do the genetics come from, and
who controls formative environmental factors?
\_ Sigh. If social mores didn't change over
time, we'd still be worshipping animals
and sacrificing each other to the moon
god.
\_ |R' - R| < |R' - Dnom|, where R' = f(R),
but |R' - R| != 0. And you should talk
to some wiccans and other neo-pagans.
\_ This correlation also applies to education levels, and high
\_ Again, I give you good science and you
reply with faulty logic. What did you
study in college?
\_ Anyway, this article essentially
agrees with both me and you. The
only dumb part of this thread is
your use of "Republican" and
"Democrat." I think the terms
you're looking for are "religious"
and "secular." The flaw in the
article's argument is that they don't
compare relative populations of
religious baby-producers and secular
baby-busters. I'm willing to bet
that the baby-producers are both a
smaller segment of the population, and
overwhelmingly immigrants of color.
\_ So you agree with the article that
attitudes toward politics has a
genetic component, in other words
children tend to inherit the
politics of the parents? Thanks for
playing.
\_ The article didn't say anything
about genetics, and you just
avoided everything that I said.
Thanks for playing.
\_ Wow. "[T]he data suggest an
interplay of both *genetic*
and environmental factors."
[emphasis added] Whatever
you studied in college, I
guess it was neither logic
nor reading comprehension.
The article also said
"people's attitudes toward...
politics," so your argument
that it's not about politics
is also patently wrong.
Do you have anything to say
beyond lies and obfuscation?
\_ for posterity, at least
three ppl are participatng
in this sub-thread
\_ However, we are all
commenting about the
same article, and
claims about what the
article did or did not
say can be resolved.
\_ Your question is seriously flawed, and
already probably caused a boatload of
confused discussion.
\_ What do you mean by "heritable"?
http://m-w.com:
heritable 1 : capable of being inherited or
of passing by inheritance
inheritance 1 a : the act of inheriting
property b : the reception of genetic
qualities by transmission from parent to
offspring c : the acquisition of a
possession, condition, or trait from past
generations
Obviously it is not 1(a). Are you talking
about 1(b) or 1(c)?
\_ This correlation also applies to education levels, and hig
standard of living. Cf. Europe and Japan.
\_ The article didn't really talk about this, but liberals could be
adopting all the unwanted kids that conservatives won't let hap-
less women abort. |
| 2006/3/7-9 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42133 Activity:low 61%like:42127 |
3/7 Ok, long term illiteracy rates finally went up. We know the education
system in America is fucked thus helping the Republican party,
but what will that
do to the overall economy? Will the proliferation of Walmart and
conservatism help control inflation, or is inflation now determined by
factors overseas?
\_ I love a good backhanded troll. Ok, so if a bad education system
helps Republicans then why have the Democrats been systematically
destroying it for decades?
\_ What?!? So I agree that op is a trolling moron, but your post
just shows an utter disconnect from reality. tjb? Is that
you? Can you MC for us? -dans
\_ YHBT.
\_ Less reliance on illegal immigrants for cheap domestic help!
Finally a way to get your laundry done by someone you can (sort of)
understand _and_ who won't get you in trouble if found out! And
the great thing is, now that life expectancy's going down, all these
trolls won't be around long enough for us to have to take care of
them when they start babbling and drooling. -John |
| 2006/3/7-9 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42124 Activity:kinda low |
3/7 Demographics in China. http://www.slate.com/id/2137680 \_ hehe. so India and China might face the same sort of problems we have here - competing with immigrants for jobs. \_ Sorry, when did you last have to compete with an immigrant for a job? \_ I have applied a few times at KODAK/OFOTO in EMERYVILLE. as required by law, they advertise now and then on Craigslist and make a half hearted effort to interview people. My internal sources say they keep subcontracting all the work through inefficient, but very cheap Indian programmers, I think through Wipro, and they haven't hired an actual American citizen in recent memory. So: yes, I feel like I am competing with huge amounts of imaginary immigrants even though its just outsourcing. \_ It's pretty common. Anyway, I have it from people who have worked there that it's a mess at Ofoto anyway. \_ I see your point, but don't be so callous. I grew up in the central valley where many Americans have been left behind. In some cases it's their fault, in other cases it's because the educational system is pathetic and because they grew up in really, really crappy dysfunctional families. And they compete for jobs with immigrants, legal and illegal. \_ I certainly don't mean to sound callous, but competing for jobs with legal immigrants sounds like a natural process and wholly in keeping with the American Dream. However, if you're suggesting we need to pump more public funding into education and enforcing fair labor practices, I'm right there with you. Just don't blame it on the immigrants. \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped engineering job salaries to shrink somewhat. I'm sure the dotcom bust has also contributed to that more. \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped cause some tech salary deterioration, if just a little. Depends \_ I'm sure immigrants are responsible for some tech wage deterioration, if just a little. Depends on how far up the corporate ladder you stand. \_ AGrove and POmidyar probably skews the scale way up. \_ H1B? Outsourcing? \_ Well, H1B, green card, or naturalized if we're talking legal immigration; outsourcing wouldn't qualify as outsourcing unless you lost your job to Little Kabul. |
| 2006/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42010 Activity:low |
2/26 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1583995/posts Legal and illegal immigrants booted out of the country because of drugs, money laundering, bank fraud, fake IDs \_ Were any of the people booted out Caucasian? How about criminal and money penalties against famers employing illegal aliens? Maybe illegal aliens should try the "i was confused (and thought i was still in mexico)" defense ... i mean it is good enough for highly compensated, well-educated business executives. \_ Farmers are fined when they're caught employing illegal aliens. \- the point is how vigorous is enforcement. duh. and see point about criminal penalties in addition to fines. \_ Why do you hate pro-business America? It's not business' fault they hired an illegal, it's the illegal's fault for being illegal. Figuring out who is legal and who is not is too hard for the small business owners like Tyson Chicken or Walmart. Get government regulators off the backs of the business man. \_ Err, is this post intended to be satirical? I'm honestly not sure.... \_ it *IS* the business' fault if they didn't follow legally mandated requirements for checking proof of eligibility to work. \_ "...charged in New York with drug possession and trafficking, money laundering, bank and credit-card fraud or producing false identities." Sounds like the IIRAIRA in action. Passed in 1996, came out of a commission set up by Clinton and chaired by Barbara Jordan, to make it easy (among other things) to deport "aggravated felons". |
| 2006/2/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:41803 Activity:kinda low |
2/11 If we'd just stop our racist border policies and remove the
predominantly white male agents from the area, these things would
stop happening:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/11/national/11border.html?ei=5065&en=8ccaeff11d50d64c&ex=1140325200&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
\_ i think you're the racist.. we have americans at the border
.. i dont see white people. this is america. if u don't
like it we can escort your ass to the border
\_ The make up of the border patrol is not representative of the
people coming over the border.
\_ why would it be? it's is representative of the USA..
if i go to Germany's border i want to see germans not
mexicans..
\_ Are you being sarcastic?
\_ Don't try to make light of such a serious situation.
\_ just performing the shootings and fire bombings Americans don't
want to perform themselves.
\_ Please try to explain how our border policies are racist.
\- If you mean immigration enforcement, it is because
employers arent more harshly penalized for employing
illegals. although this is really more a case of the
politically empowered vs the non- rather than a racist issue. |
| 2006/2/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41663 Activity:low |
2/1 Why can't we use the Army to stop these border incursions?
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060117-121930-3169r.htm
Oh that's right, someone sent it all to Iraq. My bad.
\_ Obviously you don't know the law very well. And you don't know
anything about the military troop strengths either. Put down
that latte and consider being selfless for once.
\_ I don't know much about military troop strengths. But as far
as the law is concerned, isn't it okay to use US military to
defend the US border against foreign military? Is law even an
issue here? --- !OP
\_ I agree with you. that is why I have always proposed build
a Berlin Wall across Mexicon/US border, equipped with
land mines, search lights and machine gun towers. A side
effect of this wall would be that it will *FORCE* American
to think about how much of our economy is actually depend
upon those illegal immigrants... after the fact that our
agriculture, hotel, and other industry start to feel the
effect of such wall!!
\_ The issue here is about incursions by Mexicans in military
uniforms and Humvees with guns, not the average illegal
immigrants.
uniforms and armed Humvees, not the average illegal
immigrants. (Unless you're saying since the Mexican
military support our economy by buying Humvees, we have to
let them intrude our border.)
\_ Please find a non-Moonie reference to the Mexican
army being inside our borders. -tom
\_ http://csua.org/u/evj (Yahoo! News)
'EL PASO, Texas - It wasn't just Mexican military-
style uniforms that suspected drug runners were
wearing when they were confronted by Texas lawmen,
the Hudspeth County sheriff says.
The men carried Mexican military-issue weapons and
drove a military Humvee, said Arvin West, whose
officers who were involved in the standoff.
"It was military," he said Friday. "Due to the
pending congressional hearings I can't comment
further."'
Of course this claim is up for verification, but it
shows what the issue is.
\_ Heh. You'd never see this if all you read is
the NYT.
\_ http://tinyurl.com/7ho7g (NYTimes)
\_ Here's something a little more solid than the AP
article:
http://csua.org/u/evk (latimes.com)
Heavily armed personnel in a military-style Humvee
from Mexico helped drug smugglers fleeing police to
escape back across the border, according to
authorities. An internal Border Patrol summary of
the incident said the Humvee was equipped with a
.50-caliber machine gun. ...
"'It's clear you're dealing with a large number of
incursions by bona-fide Mexican military units,
based on the tactics and the equipment being used,'
said T.J. Bonner, a Border Patrol veteran and
president of the agents union.
Corrupt police or military? The lead to the article
says "Mexican government personnel".
\_ Because they occasionally kill shepherds and make the US look dumb.
http://www.dpft.org/hernandez/gallery
\_ Why don't we use the army to take out the Moonies?
\_ I am pretty sure that would be a violation of the Posse
Comitatus act.
\_ That's crap! Moonies are wild, untamed! |
| 2006/1/31-2/1 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41627 Activity:nil |
1/31 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183363,00.html Who says Bush is not popular? \_ I have this odd vision of FoxBots adding positive or negative weight to comments based on keyword combinations and then only publishing when the end product returns zero. |
| 12/24 |