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2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/18   

2006/6/9-11 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic] UID:43337 Activity:nil
6/9     Those tolerant Democrats. http://tinyurl.com/q3lko (sfgate.com)
        \_ 'Cos it's so much harder to write: "Rep. accuses Dem. activist
           of stuffing dog shit through her mail slot."
2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43146 Activity:nil
5/22    Ebert's amusing, positive, Da Vinci code review.  (spoilers)
        http://csua.org/u/fya
        \_ I watch ALL of Hanks' films. Why? Because Hanks is a Democrat and
           has supported many candidates, including Hillary Clinton, Dianne
           Feinstein, Al Gore, and John Kerry. Hanks is also a noted
           environmentalist who drives a hybrid car and is a member of the
           Nature Conservancy. He has appeared in radio and television public
           service announcements for the organization and even serves on the
           board of trustees in Idaho, where he has a home.
           \_ So you'd watch a Hanks film even if it sucked because you like
              his politics?  Why not just send a check to your favorite
              candidates?
        \_ that movie blew chunks, although the cut scenes to the past were
           cool.
2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43143 Activity:nil
5/22    Wow, Drudge actually retracted something.
        http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5noo.htm
2006/5/22-28 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43140 Activity:nil
5/22    Aide to John McCain attacks New School undergrad keynote speaker
        http://csua.org/u/fy5 (huffingtonpost.com) - search for "Mark Salter"
        "It took no courage to do what you did, Ms. Rohe. It was an act of
        vanity and nothing more. ... McCain was once offered release from
        imprisonment and torture ... He declined ... willingly, accepted four
        more years of hardships... What, pray tell, have you risked? The only
        person you have succeeded in making look like an idiot is yourself."
        Rohe's response:  http://csua.org/u/fy6 (huffingtonpost.com)
        \_ McCain keeps giving the same, consistent speech on his
           personal beliefs hoping that he'd gain more conservative
           pro-war voters the very same way that jblack keeps posting the
           same, consistent freeper URLs thinking that he'd convert
           motd liberals into patriotic Conservative followers. McCain
           and jblack sure have a lot in common.
           \_ Regardless of what McCain stands for, I think this is a pretty
              good example of snotty, self-righteous college students in
              action (and I'm not even referring to Rohe.)  -John
              \- Yes, I totally agree with you. And speaking out your
                 single minded pro-War stance to a bunch of people who
                 you know hate you, is definitely not at all considered
                 snotty and self-righteous.
                 \_ Wasn't he invited to speak there?  I would agree with you
                    if he had pressured the administration or forced them to
                    take him as a speaker: if not, then it's just fucking
                    rude to invite the man, then treat him so disrespectfully.
                    \_ Hint: there was no vote on the invitation.
                       \_ Hint: that's a problem with the administration,
                          not the speaker.  Don't kill the messenger, etc.
                 \_ Fine, whatever, but please share where I expressed an
                    opinion on McCain.  Whether or not what he did was
                    "right" is irrelevant--the response was juvenile.  -John
              \_ Protest is rarely mature or well-constructed, particularly
                 from those in their early 20s, but when it includes this
                 sentence, "I am young, and although I don't profess to possess
                 the wisdom that time affords us, I do know that preemptive war
                 is dangerous and wrong", I give the speaker a pass.
                 is dangerous and wrong", I give the speaker a pass in my book.
2006/5/19-25 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43118 Activity:nil
5/19    http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?bid=15&pid=85098
        McCain attempts to garner support from the left at New School located
        in Greenwich Village
        "The Senator does not reflect the ideals on which this school was
        founded. This was a top-down decision in which the students played no
        part." -undergrad kenote speaker
        \_ pwned!
           \_ I loathe McCain but he's not the sort of man who has ever been
              "pwned!" by a mewling undergrad overwhelmed with their own
              brilliance which was the entire point of his speech.  Why not
              quote the part where he finally get his chance to speak after
              being bashed by her and brushes her aside like yestday's trash?
              \_ Link?  And why do you loathe McCain?
                 \_ NYT.
                 \_ NYT.  I loathe him like I loathe all life time politicians.
                    I don't like term limits but I don't see how else the
                    career politicians can be encouraged to find new careers.
                    The idea that only a few dozen seats are "at risk" in each
                    election is a joke.  He's just one more, nothing special.
          \_ Nothing against McCain in particular.  I actually tend to like
             him.  One heckler yelled out "we're graduating not voting".
             Never mind the issue that young people don't vote enough, but
             the heckler is right.  A graduation ceremony isn't the place for
             McCain to talk about why he supports the war in Iraq.
             However, I find it completely inappropriate and inexcusably
             rude when people stand up and turn away from the speaker.
             It's interesting that only people on the left do that.  It's
             just plain immature.
                        - middle of the road politically sodan
             \_ Yeah, people on the right encourage "real men" to go physically
                assault protesters.
                \_ Yeah, and people on the right are out there slashing tires
                   on the other side's "get out the vote" vans and uhm oh
                   wait....
                \_ And people on the left encourage supermen to shoot cops
                   (the man) to start the "revolution."
                   \_ And people on the right encourage their listeners to
                      take baseball bats to people with opposing view points.
             \_ How is it immature or inappropriate?  It's a visible, strong
                message of protest which doesn't deny the speaker the ability
                to communicate his message.   -tom
                \_ At a political rally, sure.  But at a commencement
                   ceremony where the speaker is a guest....
                   \_ .... then.... uh.... hey look at that cute doggie!
2006/5/18-22 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43093 Activity:nil
5/17    The RNC raised $35 million in the first quarter of the year and has
        almost $43 million in the bank. The Democratic National Committee,
        meanwhile, raised $18 million in the first quarter and has $10.5
        million on hand. Sadly, DNC is going to be as smug as it was in
        2000 and 2004 and probably screw up the campaigns again the way
        Gore and Kerry did. The DNC needs a strong leader like JFK, and
        a good campaign architect like Rove.
        \_ Kerry never got to the point.  Dubya did.  Bubba did.
           Bubba would have obliterated Dubya in a head-to-head.
           Hillary vs. McCain?  My money's on Hillary.
2006/5/17-22 [Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43079 Activity:nil
5/16    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060517/ap_en_ce/people_bill_cosby
        Crosby being a good Republican.
        \_ Crosby? Denise or Bing?
           \_ David
        \_ This isn't about partisan politics, it's about being honest to a
           community that has mired itself in a culture of victimization.
           Bill's over the top sometimes, but most of what he says are things
           the black community needs to hear and act on.
        \_ Man, the far left-wing trolls are really out in force today.
2006/5/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:43002 Activity:nil
5/10    Mary Cheney on John Kerry:
        "What was offensive was that he was obviously trying to use me and my
        sexual orientation for his own political gain."
        ... on Edwards:
        Sitting in the studio audience when Edwards mentioned her sexual
        orientation, Cheney said she looked at [him] and mouthed the words
        "Go f--- yourself."
        ... on Dubya:
        "I think he's a very good man.  On [gay] issues, he hasn't caught up."
        \_ The election has been over for a very long time, man.  Maybe you
           should speak with williamc about relocating to canada if this
           still bothers you....
           \_ who said it bothered me?  I thought some sodans might find it
              interesting, in the sense they're not blindsided "oh I didn't
              know she said that"
2006/4/5-7 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42692 Activity:kinda low 80%like:42690
4/5     Democrats object, and Republicans support, bill to cap contributions
        to political groups.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060405/ap_on_go_co/campaign_spending
        \_ It depends on the meaning of "political groups", I guess.
        \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527_group
           These are groups which advocate an issue (e.g., pro/anti gay
           marriage, pro/anti-choice) as opposed to a traditional candidate
           or political action committee which can advocate a candidate.
           The former had no per-individual cap on contributions; while the
           latter does.  So you have Soros giving $23mill to a Democrat-run
           527, and a Texas developer giving $8mill to Swift Boat Veterans
           for Truth.  The bill now goes to the Senate.
           [Sorry I'm screwing up this explanation ...]
           After McCain-Feingold limits went into effect in 2003 which
           closed off unlimited contributions to political parties, 527s
           are the only thing left for unlimited contributions.  So you
           have Soros giving $23mill to a Democrat-run 527, and a Texas
           developer giving $8mill to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
           The bill now goes to the Senate.
        \_ The parties reversing their roles?
2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/18   

2006/4/5 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:42690, category id '18005#8.0075' has no name! , ] UID:42690 Activity:nil 80%like:42692
4/5     Republicans support, and Democratic objects, bill to cap contributions
        to political groups.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060405/ap_on_go_co/campaign_spending
2006/4/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42664 Activity:kinda low
4/4     John McCain is apparently offering $50/hr to pick lettuce.  Where
        do I sign up?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060404/ap_on_go_co/mccain_booed_4
        \_ I'm disappointed he too offers the "jobs Americans don't want".
           He lost my vote.
                \_ McCain has changed from "maverick" to "tool of Bush/hard
                   right" in record time.  Um, if you paid people $50/hour
                   to pick lettuce you would have 100X as many applicants as
                   jobs.  McCain is losing it.
                   \_ If you think McCain is "hard right" or "on the right of
                      the right wing" as someone says below you're *waaay*
                      left and/or completely uninformed.  McCain has been a
                      centrist moderate for many years.  The man is working
                      with Kennedy who can't be described as anything but far
                      left.  He's been pissing off the right since before
                      2000.  If McCain is the hard right then what about the
                      50+ other (R) Senators more right than he is?  Sheesh.
                   \_ He always has been hard right.  The one thing he had
                      going for him was his work on campaign finance.  I still
                      respect him for that.  But he's _always_ been on the
                      right of the right wing.
                      \_ His campaign 'non-reform' bill should have been
                         called the 'incumbent protection bill'.  If you
                         truly want real campaign finance reform, you should
                         be very very glad his ideas went no where.
                      \_ Not quite, he's gone from saying Jerry Falwell is
                         a lunatic to embracing Jerry Falwell.
                      \_ Not quite, he's gone from saying Jerry Falwell is
                         a lunatic to embracing Jerry Falwell.
                   \_ I think the reason they all chant that mantra is they
                      want you to think that. They don't want people to "want"
                      those jobs because then they'd have to legitimately
                      address the conditions and standards and wages of them
                      and address the illegal immigrants etc. which would
                      raise costs of the associated business interests.
                      \_ BINGO!  We have a winner!
                   \_ I'd rather make $100,000/yr ($50/hr) doing manual
                      labor outside than a soul-destroying office monkey
                      job for $30,000/yr.
                         \_ I've picked wine grapes in the fall in Paso
                            Robles (for free, I might add) and it doesn't
                            *have* to be crappy. Like any job, it can be
                            if they underpay, underhire, and are assholes
                            to boot. If you work for a good person who
                            expects a reasonable amount of work at a fair
                            wage then it's not a terrible job. Grapes are
                            not lettuce, of course. Some crops are
                            physically harder to harvest than others.
                      \- and live in the central valley? and go to work
                         at 5am? i dont think that's what i'd pick ...
                         no pun intended. why dont you take on of those
                         no pun intended. would you take one of those
                         alaskan fishing jobs. there are a reaonable number
                         \_ Picking lettuce is HARD but saying that for $50/hr
                            you still would get only illegals is totally
                            ridiculous.  Would I prefer it to office work?
                            No way! - !pp
                         of grunt jobs that make dencent money. how much
                         money to oil rig workers make?
                         money to oil rig workers make? at $50/hr i think
                         \_ $300-400/day, and you have long hours.
                         you get a lot of people doing it for a couple of
                         days to make some quick cash, but i dont think
                         you'ld necessarily get a lot of long term employees.
                         \_ I paid my way through college fishing in Alaska.
                            Not only did it pay well, and was largely fun, I
                            learned useful skills that have since helped me
                            in my technical career.  There are grunt jobs,
                            like working the slime line on a processor, but
                            being a deck hand or engineer is not a low skill
                            job by any means.  I certainly know people who've
                            worked in that industry for their whole lives,
                            although the guys who keep working on deck into
                            their 50's are usually totally nuts.  The smart ones
                            are driving their own boat by the time their 40(and
                            spending the winter in their condo in Hawaii by the
                            time they're 50.)
                            \- just out of curiousity, do you think a large
                               percentage of say 18-30 year olds would not be
                               able to do the AK FISH JOB regardless of pay,
                               e.g. they dont have the strength, endurance,
                               would be to scared etc, or do you think
                               it is mostly about willingness rather than
                               ability?
                         \_ You have any idea how actual poor people live and
                            work in this country?  $50/hr is more than most of
                            them will ever see no matter what happens to the
                            inflation rate.  Have you ever met a real poor
                            person?  Maybe they brought one in to your
                            sociology class once?
                            \- um, if you are talking to me, it is highly
                               likely i have vastly more experience living
                               say without running water or continual
                               electricity than you do. my point is that
                               there would certainly be many people willing
                               to do the job for 50/hr full time, but a
                               problem you would have as an employer would
                               be "weeding out" the people looking to make
                               say $2k and then quitting and then living
                               cheaply for a while. i did stuff like that
                               for a while ... bill $100/hr for say a
                               two week programming job and then live off of
                               that for a large part of the year.
                               anyway, one point is that some hourly or
                               "piece rate" jobs dont neatly turn into
                               annual salary jobs by just multiplying by
                               2000. where did this irrelevancy about
                               the inflation rate and such come in?
        \_ if he had karl rove, he would have been smart enough to say $5/hr
        \_ "McCain insisted none of them would do such menial labor for a
           complete season." For heaven's sake, my father's summer job in
           HS was picking melons in Bakersfield.
        \_ So how much will the price of lettuce be on store shelves?
           And how many would be willing to pay that price?
2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42639 Activity:moderate
4/3     Corrupt thieving scum, Tom DeLay, withdrawing from his 2006
        congressional bid.  (cnn.com breaking news)
        Story from Time:
        http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1179853,00.html
        (and goddammit, stop overwriting, sprawl bitch)
        \_ He needs to leave so that his colleagues can do a better job
           gerrymandering, laundering, and funneling campaign cash.
        \_ "I am not a federal employee. I am a constitutional officer. My job
           is the Constitution of the United States, I am not a government
           employee. I am in the Constitution." Tom DeLay, in a CNN interview
           \_ Mr. "I am the Law!"
              \_ In the cursed Earth where the mutants dwell
                 There is no law just a living hell
                 Anarchy and chaos and the blood runs red
                 This would change if it were up to Dred
                 The book of law is the bible to him
                 Any crime commited is a sin
                 He keeps peace with his lawgiver ...
                 Judge, jury, and executionerrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
                 RESPECT THE BADGE!
                 He earned it with his blood
                 FEAR THE GUN
                 Your sentence may be death because
                 I AM THE LAW!!!!!!
        \_ Frankly he doesn't seem to be any more corrupt and thieving than his
           434 colleagues.
           \_ I would disagree.  He appears to be the most organized
              and effective of his 434 colleagues when it comes to
              gerrymandering and laundering^^^^^funneling campaign
              cash to his cronies.
              \_ Oh granted he's one of the most partisan of the house, and for
                 that reason I'm happy that he's leaving, but he certainly
                 doesn't seem measurably worse than the others.
                 \_ partisan?  uhm, duh?  you know what the party system is
                    all about right?
                 \_ Um, do a little research.  His partisanship is not what
                    got him named in multiple indictments.
           \_ He's a Republican.  That alone makes him Evil and Corrupt.  No
              need for a trial or anything to prove that.
              \_ Find me a Dem who demanded that Terry Schiavo be kept on
                 life support despite pulling the plug on his own father, and
                 I'll boo him, too.
                 \_ I told you he was evil on his party alone.  What more do
                    you want?
2006/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:42547 Activity:moderate
3/30    Welcome to the government-mandated gas shortage.  Get ready for $3/gal
        and more:
        http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2006/2006-03-29-10.asp
        \_ "We need to put oil companies on notice that they cannot use MTBE
           as another excuse to boost up oil prices," yeah, we all know that
           artificially restricting supply never causes a price increase!
           \_ I love how a senator complains that forcing the gas companies to
              switch their ingredients is the gas companies' fault.
        \_ you do know MTBE pollutes water and has no significant benefit,
           right?
           \_ No significant benefit to _you_.  Lots of benefits to the chums
              of the politicians legislating it.
           \_ Yes, but congress also is forcing them to replace MTBE with
              ethanol (rather than simply removing it) and ethanol producers
              simply can't supply the demand.
              \_ Oil companies finally figured out a way to get rid of a
                   byproduct (MTBE) by adding it to gasoline.  Too bad it's
                   a pollutant!
                 byproduct (MTBE) by adding it to gasoline.  Too bad it's a
                 pollutant!
                 \_ Congress also mandated MTBE in the first place.
                        \_ Who runs Congress? Noo, the answer is not "the
                           Congresscritters", try again.
              \_ that is a different story.  while adding ethanol make sense
                 in corn-producing countries such as Iowa, transporting them
                 from midwest to California so it can be added doesn't make
                 any economic sense.  Thanks to powerful corn producing
                 countries... btw, this is also the reason why we don't see
                 any frutose (liquid sugar that is only half of calories) at
                 starbuck... god damn it.
                 \_ Umm, all sugar is going to be the same number of calories.
                    Carbs is carbs.
                 \_ Do you mean frutose or fructose?  If it's the latter, are
                    you talking about high fructose corn syrup, which, to my
                    knowledge, is terrible for you, or is there some just
                    plain fructose liquid sugar that is less bad? -dans
                    \_ sugaarrr... mmmmm....
2006/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42493 Activity:nil 80%like:42490
3/28    Why does the president and Congress hate the Constitution?
        http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.24057/pub_detail.asp
2006/3/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:42490 Activity:nil 80%like:42493
3/28    Why do Congress and the president hate the Constitution?
        http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.24057/pub_detail.asp
        \_ 'cause it limits their power.  Duh.
        \_ cuz the 2nd amendment is the only true limit on their power left
        \_ Did you mean "nearly every politician"?
           \_ Not particularly..
2006/3/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:42427 Activity:high
3/25    Vermont AP bureau chief abruptly fired for what appear to be overtly
        political reasons: http://csua.org/u/fc2
        This is hands down one of the most chilling pieces of news I've seen
        in a long time.  I originally found about this from Dan Gillmor's blog:
        http://bayosphere.com/node/1877
        Gillmor is a highly respected journalist who left the San Jose Mercury
        News to make the ideals of Citizen Journalism he laid out in his book,
        "We The Media," a reality.  I consider Gillmor to be a very reliable
        source. -dans
        \_ Uh... no.  AP chief fired for reasons currently only known to
           AP and him.  You may trust Gillmor but he's only able to quote
           unnamed 'sources'.  Public statements from professional journalists
           should maintain a higher standard than we do on the motd.  For all
           you know he got fired for pissing in someone's morning coffee.  You
           don't have any information beyond third+ hand rumor and suspician.
           \_ What part of ``appear to be'' don't you understand?  English,
              motherfucker, do you speak it?  Can you read it? -dans
        \_ So what? He got fired. Big deal. There are thousands of journalism
           majors currently working at your local Starbucks who can take his
           place.
              \_ Preprending "appears to be" isn't sufficient cover for the
                 next line, "This is hands down one of the most chilling
                 pieces of news I've seen in a long time" which makes it
                 clear this isn't an "appears to be" to you but you're taking
                 as fact and expect the rest of us to take as fact as well.
                 Just an FYI, take it as you will, "English, motherfucker, do
                 you speak it?" as a response makes you look like a ranting
                 moronic junior highschool level child.  It adds nothing to
                 the conversation.  It doesn't score you any points.  It's a
                 complete waste of bits at best.  And it never brings the
                 level discourse *up*.  We can all go to various http://myspace.com
                 quality communities and message boards if we want that level
                 of discussion.
                 \_ Seriously, your comments indicate that you have the
                    reading comprehension skills of a fourth grader.  When I
                    write, ``This is hands down one of the most chilling
                    pieces of news I've seen in a long time,'' the use of the
                    personal pronoun `I' indicates that the statement is *my*
                    opinion, and *not* a statement of fact.  You clearly don't
                    understand this.  Clearly, you cannot read English well.
                    In order to help you, I found this helpful workshop
                    provided by the BBC to educate you on personal pronouns:
                    http://csua.org/u/fc4
                    Furthermore, I signed every post I made to this thread
                    showing that I stand behind my words.  You don't.  You can
                    call my comment mean and nasty, but you can't call it
                    childish.  Childish is throwing an anonymous temper
                    tantrum when someone forcefully points out that your
                    previous anonymous post shows poor reading comprehension
                    skills.  This is the motd.  Nobody put a gun to your head
                    and forced you to respond to my post.  If you don't want
                    to be criticized, either don't post, or write your posts
                    and argue your points so well that there's nothing to
                    criticize.
                    P.S. When did we elect your anonymous ass to the position
                    of Arbiter of MOTD Behavior?  I missed that vote.
                    -dans
        \_ So what? Newspapers are a business. Business make decisions.
           Sometimes the decisions are based on politics. That is the
           way the world works. Besides, its not like there is anything
           worth reading in a newspaper besides the comics and Fry's ads.
           \_ This so has to be a troll.  I cannot believe anyone is this
              stupid.  ilyas, is that you?  No, can't be ilyas, no talk of
              sentient stars. -dans
              \_ Well, its only 1/2 a troll. I only look at two things in
                 the newspaper, the Fry's ad and the comics. Some days I
                 even skip the comics (other than Fox Trot, its not like
                 any of the comics can really compete w/ Penny Arcade).
                 \_ Coool! -dans
2006/3/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:42076 Activity:nil
3/2     http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/03/02/homeschool.growth.reut
        Home Schooling more and more popular in the US. Many of the parents
        do so to teach diversity in politics, religion, moral/ethics,
        family values, and such. Go conservative America!
        \_ I'm a liberal, and I'm tempted to do it, because without vouchers
           the only school I could afford to send my child to (without moving
           to a different neighborhood) is the local crapshack Union-run moron
           factory.
                \- or you could SUE and send your kid to school in Switzerland!
           \_ down with lazy teacher's unions!
              \_ Yes! down with the lazy and corrupt union.
                \_ yes! (except it's not just the teacher's union that's lazy)
                    \_ why do you guys HATE the CHILDREN ?
2006/3/2-4 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:42060 Activity:nil
3/1     http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060301/ap_on_fe_st/china_spitting_crackdown
        Beijing is launching a campaign to stamp out widespread public
        spitting in an effort to clean up its image for the 2008 Olympics.
        It also promised to allow spitting after the Olympics is over.
2006/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:42009 Activity:nil
2/25    Yeah, we could be making all this stuff up
        http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_8187.shtml
2006/2/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41932 Activity:nil
2/20    Just how *did* Bush win Ohio, anyway?
        http://csua.org/u/f14
        \_ Swing voters thought if Kerry were elected there would be a better
           chance of mushroom clouds appearing in random American cities.
           \_ Not so much mushroom clouds, but more appeals to conservative
              voters. A good portion of the backlash is due to state scandals
              which have hit the Republicans hard.
2006/2/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Tax] UID:41779 Activity:high
2/9     With housing costs outstriping salaries, 40% of young people are
        moving back in with their parents after college. "And with deep
        cuts to education and tax breaks aimed mainly older, wealthier
        Americans, government no longer has young adults back." Gosh,
        I don't know whether to feel bad for these kids or laugh at
        them. They should have been born in another era.
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11238227/from/RS.5
        \_ And why is housing so expensive?
           http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv25n3/v25n3-7.pdf
           \_ there's a shock, the Cato Institute thinks that government
              regulation is the cause of all our problems!  -tom
              \_ Actually a couple of guys from Harvard and UPenn.
        \_ "A college degree is mandatory for most entry-level
            professional jobs, but most of today's job growth is in
            low-paying, low-skill industries like retail and food
            preparation."
           Isn't globalization supposed to force Americans to move
           up the job food chain, instead of down?
           \_ It does happen, just not immediately. The Reaganists and the
              Free Market theorists say that there is a short period that
              people down the chain will have to make adjustments. In
              practice, that short period lasts about 1/2 a person's lifetime,
              and adjustments are rarely made because displaced workers
              usually have no foundations and stepping stones to
              which they could better themselves in order to take jobs
              that require higher skill sets.
           \_ "advertised to" != "supposed to"
        \_ What exactly is wrong w/ this? For most of human history
           people lived in extended families and it mostly worked.
           \_ Nothing wrong.  It's just that people want to moan louder these
              days and they don't want their parents to hear it.
              \_ No, I also think there is more of an expectation of
                 personal privacy and space.  Some people moan about this
                 as an indication of the decline of "family values", while
                 others just don't feel comfortable with the idea of the
                 perceived intrusiveness of shared living space.  Unfortunately
                 that costs.  I feel bad for people who don't have the
                 possibility of their own space, although regarding the
                 article, I don't understand why people in a dodgy financial
                 situation opt to have children.  -John
                 \_ what?!  even Big Cow Wang making $1 a day in rural
                    china can have children.  the dude in the article
                    is making $27000 per year. of course he can and
                    should have children.  that's his right, and any
                    place where a person making $27000 can't afford
                    children must be seriously screwed up.  what I
                    find really wrong is all the tax breaks rich
                    people get when they have children.  I don't mind
                    subsidizing poor people for child care expenses
                    but why do rich people get them too?  It's good
                    that you still don't have children.  I would hate
                    paying tax to support your kids and your
                    expensive tastes.  ok, just kidding.
                    \_ I think child care tax credits phases out as income
                       goes up.
                 \_ The world has more people now than ever before.  I don't
                    think it is really a case of "living with family" vs not.
                    I think it is that when you and 500 people live in a small
                    village and the next village is 2 days away, you are going
                    to get a lot more 'personal space' than living with your
                    parents in a 4/3 house in the burbs.
                    \_ I think think the village of Long Wang, China (2 sq.
                       miles, 500,000 inhabitants, 3 billion chickens) is not
                       something by which I want any society I live in to
                       measure itself.  And yes, by all means have children,
                       but don't whine if you're too poor to support them
                       in the manner you'd like, and don't rely on my state
                       to do so.  -John
                       \_ 500k in 2 sq. miles is exactly what I'm talking
                          about as a "Bad Thing" that you'd only see in an
                          over crowded world.  And no, I don't want to shell
                          out so someone else can have 8 kids and still live
                          like a prince, either.
                       \_ Thanks for your concern, but we manage our affairs
                          just fine, and we alway say "butt out" when
                          American hypocrites start whining about our
                          population control policy, etc.  We also plan on
                          turning Tibet into a big theme park tourist
                          attraction.  All the Tibetans are very excited
                          with the prospects of new tourist money.  But
                          we still love our American friends, so when they
                          are in big economy trouble because their people
                          are lazy and love to enjoy life, and their
                          government is corrupt and like to spend money,
                          we help them by appreciating our currency and
                          lending lots of money to them.  This, in spite
                          of the fact that they stole lots of our treasures
                          last century and acted like drug dealers.
                                                 - Big Cow Wang
                          \_ You personally help do this stuff eh? That's
                             quite the active motd poster. How's your standing
                             in the Party?
                             \_ I am member of the legislature for the
                                Great and Glorious Republic of China.  I
                                led the successful "Just say no to buying
                                overpriced and outdated American weapons"
                                campaign.  - Big Dog Lee
                          \_ Here, we'll give you back the glorious imperial
                             hankie that we stole in the Opium War, you have
                             a bit of froth right there, to the left.  -John
                             \_ Don't tell me.  Tell your museum directors.
                                But it's okay, you can have them for now.
                                May help a few of those laid off delphi
                                workers work as museum security guards.
                                                  - Big Cow Wang
                                Think of the children they have to feed.
                                and security guards most likely make less
                                than $27000 a year.        - Big Cow Wang
                                                  - Big Cow Wang
                                \_ Hey, I don't care.  As long as great
                                   glorious Chinese mob is living in shit
                                   and getting beaten with sticks to make room
                                   for new factories, it's all good.  -John
                                   \_ Paddi field bad.  Factory good.
                                      More pay at factory so I take my
                                      children to see exotic natives in
                                      Tibet, and Americans dancing around
                                      in funny suits in Hong Kong
                                      Disneyland.  - Big Cow Wang
                                      \_ http://tinyurl.com/av5va  -John
                                         \_ http://tinyurl.com/9gto9
2006/2/7 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:41738 Activity:high
2/7     Best AG-in-front-of-Congress quote evar:
        Alberto:  "President Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson,
        President Roosevelt have all authorized electronic surveillance on a
        far broader scale."
        Rumor was that Washington's handle was "cHeRrYcHoPpEr" on AIM, but
        that was never substantiated ...
        \_ Show me the quote.  It's true that they all surveilled.  I want
           audio of him saying this precise sentence or you should retract it.
           \_ http://www.crooksandliars.com is video good enough?
              \_ Yes, thanks.  So this is true but petty, right?
                 \_ it's funny.. what's your point?
                    \_ Government bureaucrats are allowed to be inarticulate
                       fools, as long as they support MY opinion.
                       \_ An example of a verbal flub from someone I detest is
                          when Ted Kennedy misspoke and called Barak Obama
                          "Osama".
                       \_ No, anyone speaking in public gets reasonable
                          allowances for verbal flubs, regardless of their
                          opinion.
                          \_ except for al gore
                             \_ You mean "creating the internet"?  That's not a
                                flub.  He was claiming more than was
                                reasonable.
                                flub.  He was claiming more than was reasonable.
                                \_ So is Gonzalez.  -tom
                                   \_ Gonzales's point is that prior presidents
                                      have authorized extensive surveillance.
                                      He added an extra word, which is under-
                                      standable given the circumstances - he is
                                      testifying before Congress re electronic
                                      surveillance.
                                      Gonzales' statement is is VERY different
                                      from statements that a candidate for
                                      the highest office makes on the campaign
                                      trail (a la ALGOR and Kerry) in order to
                                      make themselves appear more favorable to
                                      the electorate.
                                \_ Ass, find me a quote. That lie's so stale,
                                   even Rove's turning his nose up at it.
                                   http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
                                   \_ Huh?  The quote is real.  "During my
                                      service in the United States Congress, I
                                      took the initiative in creating the
                                      Internet."  The point is he was claiming
                                      far more that he really did (even though
                                      yes he was for expansion of the internet
                                      to a more public entity).
                                      \_ So rather than launch into a 15 minute
                                         history of DARPA, he used the shorthand
                                         "the internet".  You're being dis-
                                         ingenuous.
                                      \_ Next you're going to insinuate that
                                         McCain has an illegitimate black baby.
                             \_ "I voted against it before I voted for it"
                                 \_ Not a verbal flub.  That was an attempt to
                                    please both Kerry's base and yet say he
                                    supported the war effort.  He didn't say he
                                    misspoke.
                                \_ Once again: Kerry voted *for* an amendment
                                   to a bill, which failed; he then voted
                                   *against* the legislation.  The idea that
                                   this was a flip-flop was created by
                                   Karl Rove and the dittohead machines. -tom
                                   \_ Yes, he voted for one thing, and then
                                      against another.  Not the same "it".
                                      Trying to please both sides.  Classic
                                      Kerry.
                                      \_ uh...so you think he should for
                                         for everything or against everything?
                                           -tom
                                         \_ No.  I think he shouldn't say
                                            that he voted for something before
                                            he voted against it.
                                            \_ He didn't.  Find the quote.
                                                -tom
        http://www.factcheck.org/article155.html_
        "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
        It was even more blatant than I realized.  It wasn't "it".  He
        explicitly claimed to have voted for the bill before voting against it.
        \_ http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/02_lakoff_gop3.shtml
           Quote is out of context for political gain, of course.   -tom
           \_ Your reference fails to even quote Kerry's words on that part.
              Talk about taking things out of context.
              \_ It quotes just as much as yours does.  Kerry voted *for*
                 an $87 million funding bill, which failed, and then
                 *against* a funding bill which included a $20 million
                 no-bid blank check for Halliburton.  To represent that
                 as flip-flopping, or trying to play both sides, is absurd.
                    -tom
                 \_ He voted for the amendment to the bill, not the bill
                    itself, and then voted against the unamended bill.
                    \_ He also *sponsored* a troop funding bill, which
                       Bush threatened to veto, and which the Republican
                       Congress killed in committee.  I guess Bush voted
                       against it before he voted for it.  -tom
                             \_ or howard dean
                                \_ You mean the scream?  Not a flub.  The rant
                                   about going to various states culminated in
                                   the scream, and it was the whole rant that
                                   made him look like a crazy person.  Not to
                                   mention 3rd place in the primary didn't look
                                   so good.
                                   \_ You really love grabbing things out of
                                      context, don't you? The man was standing
                                      in front of an overenthusiatic, screaming
                                      crowd of fans who couldn't hear him
                                      unless he was screaming. It was a
                                      rallying cry.
                                      \_ A rallying cry about how great 3rd
                                         place was.
                                         \_ Do you really believe that? Moron.
                                            'dict rally'. It was about trying
                                            to cheer up his supporters after
                                            a disappointment. "This is just
                                            one state, we're gonna go to X
                                            and Y and Z so don't give up" etc.
                             \_ Flubs are fine. Repeated lying is not.
        \_ he was hacking root... of the cherry tree.
           \_ he was emancipating pr0n... which wants to be free.
        \_ There was electronics in Washington's days?
        \_ There was electronics in Washington's and Lincoln's days?
           \_ Welcome to level 2.  Enjoy the extra hitpoint.
2006/2/1 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41648 Activity:nil
2/1     "I was so pleased that President Bush pushed partisan politics in
        Washington to the front of his agenda and addressed the issue at the
        beginning of his speech. Before we begin to discuss foreign policy
        and spreading democracy, the bickering on Capitol Hill needs to end.
        With an audience full of captive Democrats, hopefully some of them
        took the president's words to heart."  Kristin (Miami Lakes, FL)
2006/1/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:41588 Activity:kinda low
1/29    Hahaha--Congressional staffers change more than 1000 wikipedia
        entries:
        http://www.lowellsun.com/ci_3444567  -John
        \_ We're lucking so far all the damage is on the Republicans.  Think
           of all the filth the Republicans would sling if they discovered
           Wikipedia.
           \_ Good thing <opposite party> isn't as corrupt as we are,
              because they'd be even worse!
              \_ Yeah!  I hate <opposite party>!  They are evil and corrupt!
                 <Our party> is pure and pristine!  Go us!  If <our party>
                 isn't in control of all 3 branches, the country, nay! the
                 entire world is doomed!  Go <our party>!  I'm with you
                 brother/sister/entity!
        \_ It couldn't be possible that the 997 fixes not mentioned were
           improvements to the notoriously inaccurate wikipedia.
2006/1/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:41571 Activity:very high
1/27    Wow, Alito is getting confirmed and the Democrats did nothing, only
        cowered and thought of their election campaigns.  The GOP is one of
        the most corrupt and vile political parties in recent memories, and
        the Democrats just roll over and play dead every time.  Simply
        pathetic.  They're even worse than the Republicans.  There really
        is no one worth voting for in this damn country.
        \_ Well, if the other side has the 60 votes to kill the filibuster
           polls show > 60% of Americans supporting Alito's appointment, I
           suppose your choice is "Look weak by failing miserably in the
           filibuster", or "Look weak by not attempting a filibuster".
        \_ After one defeat after another morale with the D is low.
           They just don't want to do anything now. If someone beats
           you up badly, are you gonna standup and fight immediately?
           Better to wait till you get better.
        \_ Well, if the other side has the 60 votes to kill the filibuster and
           polls show 54% (30% opposing) of Americans supporting Alito's
           appointment, I suppose your choice is "Look weak by failing
           miserably in the filibuster", or "Look weak by not attempting a
           filibuster".
           \_ Sure, but that was a choice the Democrats made.  If they had
              decided from the start to present a united front, and had used
              the televised hearings as a platform to present Alito as
              a danger to the balance of powers, perhaps they could at least
              make a stand.  Instead they dithered and cowered like they
              always do.
              \_ I'm not sure how much the Right's combination of raw media
                 control and skillful media usage had to do with it, but
                 you know, I completely agree.  All the Left had to do was
                 to unify around the message of:  Alito is no Sandra Day
                 O'Connor, a centrist and frequent swing voter.
           \_ Looks like they chose option C: "Look like a bunch of weak
              squabbling idiots who couldn't get elected dogcatcher, let
              alone run a country."
              http://csua.org/u/et2 (yahoo news)
              \_ When was the last time anyone was elected dogcatcher?
              \_ Nah, anyone who votes against cloture gets points in my book,
                 even with the odds.
                 "I reject those notions that there ought to somehow be some
                 political calculus about the future. ... The choice is now."
                 -- Kerry's unfuckingdeniably right.  I sincerely hope he
                 manages to procure some balls for the rest of the party.
                 \_ That's rich coming from Mr. "I voted for it before I voted
                    against it."
                    \_ He voted for an *amendment*, which failed.  Without
                       the amendment, he voted against the *legislation*.
                       Is this so hard to understand?  -tom
                       \_ That would be two different "its" not the same one.
                          \_ Yes, that's exactly my point.  -tom
                    \_ That's right, same guy.  The world always loves a
                       comeback / redemption story, and it works for me.
        \_ So it's not remotely possible that most of them think (privately
           of course, it wouldn't do to say so publically) he'd actually be
           a decent justice?  That maybe he's not an executive-crushing
           firecracker and he might actually be <gasp> pro-life, but he might
           still be a good justice?
           \_ Nope.  They blew their chance in the hearings with meandering
              questions and the Kennedy nonsense, and then the media jumped
              on the "crying wife" story and killed any further chance of
              questions.
              \- OP inquiry: what is the reason to oppose ALITO and not
                 ROBERTS?
                 \_ Excellent question. The answer is: none. Roberts should
                    not have been approved.
                    \_ Shrug, my impression of Roberts is of a very smart,
                       honest, conservative dude from Harvard who did pro-bono
                       work for gays because he believes in the cause.
                       My impression of Alito is of a not-so-smart, weaselly
                       foot-soldier being rewarded for a lifetime of furthering
                       party causes with a lifetime appointment, one that
                       sends a clear, resounding message to all other
                       moderately intelligent slimeballs. -someone else
                       \- I'm not thrilled with ALITO (Initially he seemed
                          more reasonable than later on), but I am not sure
                          there are grounds to not put him on to a court with
                          THOMAS. The problem with the Democrats was
                          windbaggery more than cowardice. Did you see the
                          ratio of words uttered by BIDEN and "Killer" TEED
                          KENNEDY to ALITO. It was like 3.5, 3.2 words to 1.
                          PAT LEAHEY is perhaps becoming my favorite Democrat.
2006/1/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:41381 Activity:low
1/15    The Dirty Dozen
        http://www.divestterror.org/dirtydozen.html
        \_ "In the 1980s, millions of outraged Americans succeeded in bringing
           about a singular achievement -- ending South Africa's racist
           apartheid policy.  There is little debate as to how this was
           accomplished:  Where international sanctions, public condemnation
           and diplomacy fell short, a nationwide American divestment campaign
           triumphed. "  Is this true? They cite no evidence.  I recall my
           parents boycotting various products because of South Africa, but
           I don't recall ever hearing about one of those big companies
           actually divesting.  Does anyone know anything about the accuracy
           of their claims?
           \_ Google south africa apartheid divest
              This was one of many pages I found on the subject. More research
              left to you, the reader.
              http://www.msu.edu/~divest/apartheid.html
2006/1/12-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic] UID:41357 Activity:nil
1/12    Oh man, I want to see these ads, but my work computer doesn't have
        a recent enough version of flash.
        (Canadian liberals accuse conservatives of being US symps)
        http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20060111
2006/1/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:41294 Activity:moderate
1/8     Re: Abramoff.  Transcript of Howard Dean on with Wolf Blitzer, CNN.
        http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/08/le.01.html
        "There are no Democrats who took money from Jack Abramoff, not one,
        not one single Democrat. Every person named in this scandal is a
        Republican. Every person under investigation is a Republican. Every
        person indicted is a Republican. This is a Republican finance scandal.
        There is no evidence that Jack Abramoff ever gave any Democrat any
        money. And we've looked through all of those FEC reports to make sure
        that's true."
        \_ I hope Howard Dean knows what is he talking about.  I vaguely
           remember Abramoff also paid lavish trips for Democrats as well.
           \_ Replubican lies.
              \_ How would you know?  Do you have special insider info?
                 Like everything else, this will be investigated, maybe a
                 few people will resign from one or both parties and nothing
                 will change because politicians are corrupt.
                 \_ sheesh. take a chill pill.  My point is that Republicans
                    have been spreading the message that Abramoff paid $$ to
                    Dems.  And that's the reason why he "vaguely remembers"
                    this.
                    \_ You didn't have a point if you wrote "Republican lies".
                       That isn't a point.  It is partisan noise.
                       \_ I expanded it in the pp. make sense now?
                 \_ Do you think that politicians everywhere are corrupt?
                    I do not. Why are politicians in some other countries
                    less corrupt? Could we perhaps figure out why and reform
                    our system to be more like theirs?
                    \_ I think all career politicians are corrupt.  What county
                       did you have in mind where they are less so?
                 \_ I am a democrate.  but i just don't think Abramoff is so
                    stupid that he only oil up Republicans.  And Democrats
                    are not exactly clean neither... just that they are not
                    nearly as blatant as Republicans under Bush's reign.
                    \_ I think all career politicians are corrupt.  What county
                       did you have in mind where they are less so?
              \_ "Democrats' Travel Costs Linked to Lobbyist" [Washington Post]
                 http://csua.org/u/ejn
                 Is this a Republican plant?  Reading Dean carefully, do paid
                 trips show up in FEC reports?
                 \_ http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7723344/page/2 has a lot more
                    details.
                    "Clyburn said in an interview he had never heard of
                     Abramoff at the time, and provided a copy of a letter
                     showing he was invited by the nonprofit foundation."
                    The sum total of both trips was ~$4.5-5k airfare and a
                    $227 hotel bill per Congressman.  This is proof that
                    Abramoff paid for "lavish trips."  It sounds like first
                    class plane travel, and a nice night in a good hotel, but
                    "lavish?"  And I don't know about you, but I don't think
                    a $5k first class plane ticket buys much influence in
                    Washington these days.
                    Certainly, Dean was careful with his language, and these
                    were not filed with the FEC. However, "Both Clyburn and
                    Thompson filed House disclosure reports showing the
                    [nonprofit] group paid for the travel."  Apparently,
                    these reports are now incorrect, but they were filed b/c
                    at the time, Clyburn and Thompson "weren't told the
                    foundation that invited them never put up the money."
                    Considering the point of lobbying is to direct money to
                    the congressmen in order to curry favor with them, not
                    telling the congressman that you gave them money doesn't
                    curry much favor.
                    Clyburn and Thompson may turn out to be Democratic
                    sleazeballs.  Who knows?  But $5,000 of disclosed money
                    received doesn't swing the pendulum of corruption from
                    red to purple.
                    \_ Hey, my post was only in response to the quick
                       "Republican lies" claim above.  -pp
                    \_ Direct quotes from the congressmen or staff:
                       http://www.contrarianreview.com/lobbyist.html
                       Clyburn:
                       "The invitation was signed by a chairman of the Joint
                        Chiefs. What was I supposed to believe?"
                       - The letter said the Congressional delegations would
                         "be paid for by the nonprofit N.S.C. Foundation, and
                          they will not involve any cost to the US government."
                       Thompson staff:
                       "He received an invitation from a nonprofit group to go
                        down and visit the islands. It was a legitimate trip.
                        And once he returned from the trip, he complied with
                        House rules and filed the required ethics forms."
                       \_ Man, the spin is coming hard and fast now.  Do you
                                \_ point A
                          even read your *own* source?  The letter was signed
                          by Thomas Moorer, who was the *former* Chairman of
                          the Joint Chiefs.  Hello, "former", as in 1970 to
                          1974?  Meaning Moorer was a private citizen at the
                          time of the invitation.  Since the writers of the
                          article knew Moorer was only the former Chairman,
                          and they didn't call Clyburn on it, you have to wonder
                          why not and where their bias lies.  As to point 2,
                                \_ point B.
                          as the WaPo article said, "Greg Hilton [the director
                          of the group] understood at the outset that the
                          expenses would be covered by 'the private sector'".
                          Hilton was later told that the government would
                          cover the costs, but barring more evidence, it's
                          hard to say if Clyburn was told specifically if the
                          trip were covered by private or public funds.
                          \_ You're absolutely right. We should impeach and
                             fire all politicians who took money from
                             Abramoff, regardless of political affiliation.
                             If that ends up being more Dems than Repubs, fine.
                          \_ A+B: your own biases and paranoia are showing
                             through. You don't address the points, but rather
                             attack the news source as being biased. Oh, yes,
                             and you accuse pp of "spin" when the whole post
                             is pretty much direct quotes.
2005/12/15-19 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:41039, category id '18005#11.0662' has no name! , ] UID:41039 Activity:kinda low
12/15   Tran Blasts Dean: Calls for Solidarity in Iraq
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1536289/posts
        \_ Fascinating... not the article, but your persistence.
           Can you please shed some light as to why you keep posting
           stuff from freerepublic? Is it 1) to educate liberals why
           conservatism is better? 2) to humiliate liberals by pointing
           URLS that humiliate liberals? 3) to generate knee-jerking
           reactions from liberals for entertainment values? or
           4) you forgot your medication? Please explain.
           \_ I kind of like seeing what those bastards are up to.  I find
              that I read points of view on there that most of my liberal
              friends didn't know existed.  For instance, I wouldn't know about
              the drooling adulation of Rice by the wingnut right were it not
              for freerepublic.  A black woman with a phd as an Icon of the far
              right?  It defies the stereotype of the racist right wing nut
              who hates book learnin'.  If it weren't for jblack and his
              dipshit trolls, I would not come into any contact with the far
              right, and given their present power in this country I think that
              would be a bad thing.
              \_ Are you kidding me? Their worship of Condi is the most
                 endearing thing about them. It shows that they have
                 at least mostly abandoned their virulent open racism.
                 \_ Right. Fine.  I'm not dissagreeing with that, I'm just
                    saying that were it not for jblack drooling his links
                    all over the motd, I wouldn't know this particular
                    charming tidbit about the far right.  So it's not all bad.
           \_ 5) Liberal trolling as a conservative posting strawmen
              in order to make conservatives look like nut jobs?
           \_ I would think the article speaks for itself.  There are
              glaring misconceptions about Vietnam that warrant
              clarification.
              clarification.                            -jblack
              \_ The Vietnam war is over. No one cares anymore. Get over it.
                 \_ If people didn't care then why do they compare every
                    non-trivial military action to Vietnam?  And if they're
                    going to compare then it is important that we have the
                    correct history and not myths.  I didn't read the article
                    and don't read the free republic but I do care in general
                    about historical accuracy and revisionism. -!jblack
        \_ yes, your point jblack?
        \_ I don't get it--Dean says "S. Vietnamese couldn't support
           themselves".  Tran says "RVN fell because Congress cut off
           support."  Where's the contradiction?  -John
2005/11/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:40766 Activity:nil 88%like:40758 57%like:40761
11/28   David Brin is worried
        http://tinyurl.com/as59y (davidbrin.blogspot.com)
2005/11/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:40761 Activity:nil 61%like:40758 57%like:40766
11/28   David Brin is worried
 http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/11/ideas-for-rescuing-modernity-part-1.html
        [+80col URL deleted. Please use URL shortener]
          \_ wtf?!? comment if you want, don't delete the url.
        \_ you are an ass. why do you care?
2005/11/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:40758 Activity:nil 61%like:40761 88%like:40766
11/28   David Brin is worried
        http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/11/ideas-for-rescuing-modernity-part-1.html
2005/11/21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:40678 Activity:nil 60%like:40682
11/21   The Conspiracy Against the Taxpayers
        http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_taxpayers.html
2005/11/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic] UID:40668 Activity:nil
11/21   At BA .271%, parked truck crashes into YOU.
        http://www.wbns10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4009353
2005/11/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:40652, category id '18005#1.92198' has no name! , ] UID:40652 Activity:nil
11/18   Why does America hate Bruce Springsteen?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_en_mu/people_springsteen
        \_ Because he's a no-talent hack?
           Also, "Born in the USA" is an anti-american song, not an anthem.
             -tom
           \_ Is it an anti-war song or something?  Thx.
              \_ It's a ballad about the sad story of people who don't know how
                 to use google.
         http://www.lyricsdomain.com/2/bruce_springsteen/born_in_the_usa.html
2005/11/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:40641 Activity:kinda low
11/17   http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051116/od_nm/life_prison_dc
        Why the jail system should be privatized.
        \_ "... the prison system received more money in its budget than it
           asked for ..."  Why would a govt department have receive more money
           asked for ..."  Why would a govt department have received more money
           than it asked for in its budget???
        \_ "... saying the prison system received more money in its budget than
           it asked for ..."  Why would a govt department have receive more
           money than it asked for in its budget???
           \_ Congress does this to the DoD all the time.  "You will buy
              this pork item that you don't really want, with this money."
              But all that's really necessary is that they direct the dep't
              to spend money on something they didn't plan for, but that the
              legislature wants them to do.
              \- you also see weapon systems that the armed services dont
                 even want or weapon systems whose compoenents are sourced
                 from 48-50 different states. the osprey is one example of
                 program with a bizarre history. obgoogle etc.
                 \_ Very often at the expense of things like spare parts,
                    operational supplies and training, according to several
                    officer type I know who left the army for this and
                    similar reasons (generally overpoliticization.)  -John
2005/11/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:40596 Activity:nil
11/15   http://csua.org/u/e0n (huffingtonpost.com)
        http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1559
        Previously accurate Ohio predictions wildly inaccurate for this year's
        Ohio referendum issues.
        \_ And you didn't go to the talk last week on electronic voting
           security?  For shame.
        \_ Why don't we just forego elections altogether and just determine the
           winner by polls.
        \_ These articles are really weak.
2005/11/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Election, Computer/Companies/Google] UID:40554 Activity:nil
11/11   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22435-2004May12.html
        I just found out that whenever you search for something and
        click on the sponsored link, the sponsors pay anywhere between
        a few cents to $30 dollars. YES $30 dollars, that means I
        have the power to waste $30 per click even if I'm not interested
        in that company. So I have a suggestion for all of you bored
        Green Peace liberals with nothing else to do. Search for
        Republicans and start clicking on "Republican Dating" or
        "The Republican Store" or any site that supports the GOP. Now
        that you are empowered to bankrupt their internet funding,
        spread this message to all of your hippy friends now!
        \_ Sorry, it didn't work that way many years ago when I was at a
           ad based company.  I'm certain it doesn't now.  No one is paying
           $30 for a click through.  They would pay $30 for an actual signup
           with a real CC# attached though.  For the click throughs (which
           were measured in $/1000 clicks in my day) we only got paid for
           real clicks after the logs went to a third party service for
           'cleaning'.  You can't honestly believe you're the first person
           to have ever thought of inflating someone else's costs with fake
           clicks?  Anyway, as a philosophical/political thing, if your
           philosophy was so great you wouldn't need to try 'dirty tricks'
           to win.  Your philosophy should stand on it's own merit at the
           ballot box.
           \- if you want to cost the Rs real money you have to be less
              lazy. one thing you might do is see if the cash checks for
              1cent. if you get pre paind fund raising englvelopes from
              them keep sentind them 1cent checks [i get free checks].
              that's a suggestion that doesnt involve leaving the house.
              you might also put like glitter in the envelope. i assume that
              is not illegal. yes, i know this doesnt cost them real money
              but it might deliver psychic satisfaction. i also realize
              it may not be the R machine processing these checks so you
              will have to decide if it is appropriate to fill the office
              of a R contractor with hard to get rid of glitter. anyway,
              this is after about 30 seconds of thought. i am sure i could
              come up with something better, but yeah, there is a no free
              lunch aspect to this. i certainly have no problem mailing
              empty prepaid envelopes back in cases of unsolicited junk
              i dont like. i guess you can look at their return addresses
              and subscribe them to gay vacation advertising lists etc.
              \- oh, you also may be better off trying to disrupt a small
                 unit ... like say infiltrating the BCR etc.
        \_ Having spent a summer working on ads analysis at Google, I can
           assure you that the cost-per-click can get outrageously high.
           However, you're unlike to be able to take advantage of this
           because (a) you won't be able to find out which keywords are
           expensive without alot of work and (b) Google has a many smart
           people working on detecting clickspam and they've gotten very
           good at it. --darin
           [ reformatted - formatd ]
2005/11/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:40495 Activity:low
11/8    Oops, looks like the person who leaked the CIA secret prisons info was
        a Republican senator.  Guess that "investigation" won't be going
        anywhere after all.
        \_ If it's McCain, it might go somewhere.  Oh wait, McCain just said
           he hadn't heard of the sites at all before the Post story.
        \_ Frist is backing off already...  Gee, think the man has any
           credibility left?  -aspo
        \_ everyone's a schadenfraudester.
        \_ Hey, the Dems can still call for it (and they should--of course the
           Repubs should as well). -emarkp
        \_ "Hey, we're gonna get the guy who blew the whistle on our secret CIA
           torture scam!" wtf??
        \_ Yes, it is more important to stop the leaks than to find out more
           about the US secret prisons. Trent Lott says that it was a
           Republican senator because VP Cheney told them about the prisons
           during a luncheon. Makes you wonder what they say over nightcaps.
                \_ That's when they talk about the horse molestation chambers
        \_ s/'secret prisons'/'torture chamber'/g
2005/11/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:40484 Activity:nil
11/8    Analyst says Wilson 'outed' wife in 2002
        http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47242
        There are now multiple witnesses stating Wilson 'outed' his
        wife well before his mission to Africa.
        \_ Slight problem... take a look at
           http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/11/08/vallelyAndWilsonFoxAppearances.html
           The two were never on on the same day.  Not only that but Wilson
           wasn't on at all until many months after this outing supposedly
           happened.  And when that last little tidbit came out the "analyst"
           changed his story to match the dates better.
        \_ This message brought to you by our good 'ol jblack
           \_ Does jblack belong to the Berkeley College Republicans?
        \_ http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-rebuttal
           \_ Wow, that link doesn't address Vallely's claim at all!  Thanks
              anonymous motd link poster! -emarkp
              \_ Vallely's claim was limp to begin with, even if true.
                 The outing occurred with Novak's column, which has a
                 significant (and partisan-activist) readership.
                 \_ Ah yes, the standard partisan response.  "Your claim is
                    false!  And even if it isn't, it doesn't matter."  Thanks
                    for playing. -emarkp
                    \_ Actually, I never said his claim was false.
                       \_ "even if true"
                          \_ != "Your claim is false!", which is a declaration
                             indicating certainty
        \_ Waitasec. A retired Major General says he heard Wilson talking
           openly about his wife being a CIA agent in the green room at
           Fox News? THAT's your evidence? Where are the multiple witnesses?
           \_ You aren't willing to take any statement by a Major General
              as the aboslute truth?  You've obviously never served.
              \_ I'm withholding judgement until I hear what BUD DAY thinks.
2005/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:40472 Activity:low 50%like:40463
11/6    Anyone else watch the live West Wing debate? Pretty amazing.
        I've been checking some of the facts they mentioned in the debate
        and it seems to be mostly true. Although Mexico sometimes imports
        more oil to the US than Canada.
        \_ I watched it, it was very cool.  My roommate and I were actually
           fairly suprised that they incorporated some contemprary issues
           into the debate and it seemed to live in our world and not so much
           the artificial world of the west wing. -mrauser
        \_ Which party is the ruling party in West Wing?  Who plays the
           liberal and who plays the conservative?  I don't watch the show.
           \_ Well, it up to this point in the show has parralleled the
              Clinton presidency (Democratic president, dual republican houses
              in congress).  Just look on http://nbc.com if you want the cast.
                -mrauser
2005/10/21-24 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:40219 Activity:high
10/21   jblack hasn't posted for a few weeks. I want to congratulate
        all the conservative haters who successfully got rid of
        conservative sympathizing trollers like amckee and jblack.
                -not the guy who threatened jblack but supports him 100%
        \_ Motd would be rendered almost completely useless as a place for
           political discussion if all of the conservative thinkers leave
           so only extremist liberal thinkers are left to echo the same
           ideas back forth to each other.  "getting rid" of people because
           they have different ideas that challenge you is at best
           cowardly, and at worst destructive of the entire notion of
           liberty and free speech.  If you can't handle the strain of being
           forced to re-evaluate your ideas, perhaps it would be better for
           everyone if you left and looked for the little ideolgical womb
           that will challenge you the least -- at least that's less
           destructive, since you can always come back at a later date.
           \_ "Conservative Thinker" is an oxymoron. It makes as much
              sense as Brilliant Bush or Justified Iraq War.
              \_ So George Will and William F. Buckley don't think?
                 \- serious question: can you give and example of a
                    WFB's brilliance? other than his fondness for
                    words like "debouche". i think WJC is probably
                    50x smarter than WFB.
                    \_ I used to watch WFB on Firing Line(?) debates
                       on pbs. He seemed very knowledgeable. Those
                       two were just examples. I'd also list Friedman,
                       Posner, Scalia, &c. as other examples.
                       One may not agree w/ them but they certainly
                       are intelligent thoughtful people.
                       \_ [idiocy deleted by poster out of deep shame]
                       \_ Thomas Friedman is a conservative?  I think not.
                          If he's a conservative, then so am I, and I am
                          *not* a conservative.
                          \_ Milton not Thomas. I'm talking about
                             intelligent people not NY Times col-
                             umnists.
                          \- aside from scalia, i think some of your
                          \- aside from SCALIA, i think some of your
                             conservative thinkers are either 1. not thinkers
                             or 2. not conservative. you might looks at people
                             like L STRAUSS (dead) H MANSFIELD R KAGAN
                             M MALIA (ucb, dead ... he is the "the the stalin
                             like L STRAUSS (dead) H MANSFIELD D KAGAN
                             M MALIA (ucb, dead ... he is the "to the stalin
                             mausoleum" fellow). i do not list economists.
                             i think somebody like C HITCHENS would eat
                             W BUCKLEY alive in a live debate. you can google
                             for "chicago school". i think libertarians take
                             "theory and thinking" more seriously than
                             conservatives. oh i suppose M P CATO is also
                             conservative and maybe MICAHEL OAKSHOTT (dead).
                             conservative and maybe MICHAEL OAKSHOTT (dead).
                             \_ What about Greenspan?
                                \_ Are you sure you don't mean GREENSPAN?
                                \_ Are you sure you don't mean A GREENSPAN?
                                \- i am not sure what to make of GREENSPAN.
                                   on the one hand, i think FED HEAD is one of
                                   the toughest jobs in government [sic]
                                   and he has done a pretty good job, on the
                                   othe hand he is a (former?) RANDROID which
                                   is an infanitile and obviously not serious
                                   philosophy. BTW, there are plenty of smart
                                   people who arent "broad thinkers"
                                   ... FREIDMAN's Beiruit To Jerusalem is
                                   really good and is in his core competencey
                                   area. when he writes on econ, i think he
                                   latches on to interesting issues but i
                                   dont think he is a deep thinker in the
                                   area [like his flat earth book]. on the
                                   other hand CHITCHEN has some whacky views
                                   on the war but he is also able to write at
                                   a fairly scholarly level about
                                   ORWELL. POSNER writes on lots on things
                                   [although an associate of mine says he LAW
                                   and LIT stuff is leem].  i suppose even
                                   GEROGE WILL writes about baseball,
                                   although i am not able to evaluate his
                                   comments in that area and i am not sure
                                   whether sports writing is really fertile
                                   for deep commentary ... PAULINE KAEL and
                                   MFK FISCHER may be among the best in their
                                   repective fields of film and food
                                   commentary but i dontthink they are among
                                   the towering thinkers of our time ... so
                                   i'm not dissing sports in particular.
                             \_ I have read Kagan (Paradise and Power) and
                                would add him to the list. Personally I
                                agree that most conservatives don't spend
                                as much time sitting around thinking about
                                useless crap b/c they would much rather be
                                out in the real world doing something.
                                Maybe liberals do think more better deeper.
                                I wasn't disputing that, only pointing out
                                that there are some people who are conser-
                                vative and engage in thinking. I think that
                                the people I've listed generally fall w/in
                                the popular conception of conservative.
                                \- oh sorry, i meant KAGAN pere ... DKAGAN
                                   not RKAGAN. fixed above. i am not taking a
                                   postion on whether there are more
                                   conservative thinkers etc. although i
                                   think it may be a case of theoretical
                                   parisomony not being as important to
                                   results oritented conservatives. so dont
                                   oversubscribe my comments as an attack.
                                   i have to go out in teh real world now
                                   rather than motd'ing about useless crap.
                                   [has "to motd" been used as a verb before?]
                                   i have put my tutleneck on backwards.
                                   in the legal field maybe conservatives are
                                   more interested in parsimony than liberals.
           \_ Who here, in your mind, are the "extremist" liberals?
              For that matter, who are the conservative "thinkers"?
              \_ The guys "getting rid" of vocal conservative thinkers, for
                 starters.
        \_ I assume you are being sarcastic. Running off people who
           disagree with you, instead of responding to their ideas,
           is a really crappy way of debating. The motd is a lot more
           boring without the few beleaguered Conservatives. -ausman
           \_ Ideas? Debate?  Are we talking about the same guy?  There are
              several, probably about half a dozen or more conservatives who
              actually post ideas and debate on the motd, and as far as I can
              tell, the troll in question is not one of them.  I don't see
              how posting the same urls over and over again constitutes either
              "ideas" or "debate".  Fuck him, good riddance.  The conservatives
              who post actual thoughts to the motd have much tougher skin
              than that anyway, as evidenced by the fact that they're still
              here.
              \_ Huh.  I recall alot of those url's generating very long
                 threads of discussion (which sometimes crossed the line into
                 troll and countertroll), quite a lot of which was elucidating
                 in terms of non-rabidly left ideas.  Maybe it's not the url
                 guy that has the thin skin, here....
              \_ Do you really think that his posting of Freeper links
                 was pursuading anyone of anything? "Never interrupt your
                 opponent when he is making a mistake."
                 opponent when he is making a mistake." -ausman
                 \_ Uhm, who are you responding to?  I suspect your indentation
                    is wrong.
                    \_ No my indentation was correct. I should have signed
                       my post. I think that letting jblack make his case
                       actually helped do the opposite. -ausman
                       \_ Ah, okay -- sorry, my bad.  Well, no jblack himself
                       \_ Ah, okay -- sorry, my bad.  Well, no jblack
                          probably didn't convince anybody, but some of his
                          links generated discussion which may have forced
                          some people to refine or rethink their positions.
                          The point isn't about jblack, but about promoting
                          a place where you can have strong opinions and not
                          worry about getting physically, financially, or
                          in any way injured.  It speaks poorly of motd that
                          we're just as tolerant of differing opinions as
                          the deplorable freepers in the freeper links.
                          a place where you can have strong opinions and
                          not worry about getting physically, financially,
                          or in any way injured.  It speaks poorly of motd
                          that we're just as tolerant of differing opinions
                          as the deplorable freepers in the freeper links.
                          *shrug* --!"Ideas? Debate?" guy
                          \_ "Ideas? Debate?" guy here.  For the record I think
                             the threats were stupid and wrong and far more
                             offensive than any freeper link.  I don't
                             *support* threats, and I'm not the op--I just have
                             a hard time shedding a tear over this particular
                             change even if it happened for stupid reasons.
        \_ If you can't take the heat, blame Clinton and whine incessantly.
2005/10/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:39983 Activity:nil
10/5    John Kerry seeks retribution over the 2004 election.
        Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation (meet Bud Day too)
        http://www.vvlf.org/default.php
2005/9/29-10/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:39930 Activity:nil
9/29    Ann Coulter and freepers have trouble processing that Pat Tillman was
        pro-Kerry, against Dubya and the Iraq War, and wanted to go after Osama
        in Afghanistan
        http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/28.html#a5149
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1493046/posts
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL
        \_ Where's emarkp to tell us that this is all a hoax and can be easily
           done with green screen special effects?
        \_ NO NO!!! IT'S NOT TRUE!!! LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA
           \_ Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
        \_ Pat Tillman is now my hero, I only admired him before all this new
           info.
        \_ I love the smell of cognitive dissonance in the morning.
        \_ GO PAT! GO!
2005/9/29-10/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:39928 Activity:nil
9/29    http://tinyurl.com/dn73w
        When confronted with the fact that Pat Tillman was against the war
        in Iraq (but for Afghanistan), a fan of Noam Chomsky, and a Kerry
        supporter, Hannity and Coulter just ... deny it can be true.
        \_ Was he a Kerry support when Kerry voted for the war or when he
           was against it?
           \_ probably he became a Kerry supporter when he saw how dumb Dubya
              was, and Kerry's competitors for the DNC nomination started
              dropping out in March.
              \_ Didn't Dubya do better in college than Kerry?
                 \_ Didn't Dubya lose the entire city of New Orleans?
                 \_ Yup, but his brain didn't improve much after that
                 \_ Didn't Dubya lose Osama bin Laden?
                 \_ Yup, but his brain didn't improve much after that, no
                    matter how much coke and alcohol he consumed.
        \_ Oh yeah, Media Matters.  A nice unbiased source.  I heard that Pat
           and his mom didn't agree about the war.  So unless his mom's account
           is corroborated, I wouldn't buy it either.
           \_ See the video.  See the http://sfgate.com article quoting multiple
              sources indicating what Tillman thought.
           \_ Are you channeling O'Reilley, he said "Why don't you just ask
              Castro!" when Krugman referenced media matters.  And yes this
              info comes from multiple sources, I just thought media matters
              summarized it well.
        \_ Another win for the reality based community.
        \_ This is the same Pat Tillman that the left called an idiot and
           published a lot of other nastiness about, right?  So now he's a
           hero?  What would Cindy say about Pat?  She says this country isn't
           worth fighting for.  Pat, our new hero, said it was.  This is
           "nuance"?  And no, I don't actually care either way.  I just find
           the whole "we'll believe both sides of anything twice before
           breakfast as long as it might have political agenda value" amusing.
           \_ Links, o contentious one. The Left showed you theirs, now show
              yours.
              \_ Links to what?  A Cindy quote?  Sheesh, it's everywhere.  The
                 sky is still blue, don't make me find a link for that, too.
                 Anyway, like I said, I find it amusing.  I don't actually
                 care.  This is not the sort of thing elections are won and
                 lost on.  No one cares what Coulter or Hannity say.  They're
                 media figures, not policy makers.  And for certain, *no one*
                 with a pulse cares what the freepers have to say.  For kicks,
                 I went to read the freeper link.  Still the same type of
                 one-liner no-content types as years ago, the last time I read
                 it.  OTOH, no one cares what Cindy says either.  It's all a
                 big circus on both sides missing the truly important issues.
                 What color should we paint the shed?
                 \_ Yes the left was bashing Tillman for being a mindless
                    patriotic drone -- but that was the EXTREME left -- just
                    like the EXTREME right bashes Kerry and Cleland for their
                    service to this country.  I always admired Pat Tillman
                    for leaving behind a fortune and fighting for this country,
                    I didn't know what his political views were back then but
                    I'm happy to have found out they are very close to mine.
                    \_ So, I'm with you on this, but I have to say that
                       Coulter and the Freepers are EXTREME right.  Or,
                       more to the point, they're idiots. -!pp
                        \_ Well yeah, but they get a heck of a lot more media
                           coverage than any extreme left wing idiot I know.
                           \_ Really?  I always thought Micheal Moore,
                              and Tom Tommrow were doing ok.  Sheehan too.
                              \_ Never heard of Tom Tommrow, but perhaps you
                                 substitute Al Franken.        -moderate
                              \_ When was the last time either one was
                                 on the cover of Time magazine?
           \_ Ted Rall started the Pat Tillman is a stupid moron thing.
              http://asmallvictory.net/archives/tr040503.html
              Yes, I e-mailed him the http://sfgate.com article a few days ago.
              \_ Ah, thanks.  I was wondering how anyone could forget that
                 glob of stomach churning bile.
               \_ While Ted Rall is a moron, remember these were in response
                  the offical story, one that was quite a bit different from
                  the truth.
                  \_ I don't really see why that makes the comic less vile.
                     \_ Comics can be vile, but still be well-drawn and funny.
                        Ted Rall is neither well-drawn nor funny.
2005/9/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:39905 Activity:nil
9/28    Cindy Sheehan calls McCain a warmonger:
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-28-sheehan-mccain_x.htm
2005/9/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39872 Activity:moderate
9/26    So, Katrina, Rita, what is the verdict?   I remember someone here
        on soda saying that federal government shouldn't get involved in
        hurrican relief.  I would like to hear your opinion on Bush's
        vast mobilization of federal resources *BEFORE* the Rita hits.
        Do you still believe that federal government should be hands off and
        let the state and local officials do their thing? and why.
        \_ I'm tired of this thread. Why don't you email jblack directly?
           And why are you obsessed with proving that you're right and
           they're wrong? A real conservative sticks to his guns and
           never flip-flops his position. In another word, a real
           conservative never admits anything wrong.
           \_ Apparently niether do real liberals.  That's why we call then
              "far"-left/right.  (Or extremists)
              "far"-left/right.  (Or extremists)                -jrleek
              \_ Hello, Mr. Conservative.
              \_ No, a real liberal flip-flops (changes his position) all
                 the time to gain the most advantageous views.
                 \_ A real liberal is reasonable to changing his mind
                    in the face of new evidence, but I don't call that
                    flip-flopping, I call it intelligence.
                    \_ Go Kerry the Master of Flip-Flopping!
                    \_ but every time a new opinion appears?
                       \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
                    \_ Intelligent flipping.
                       \_ Intelligent flipping is a baseless myth. It's really
                          just the evolution of an opinion.
        \_ I am still waiting for answers.  I am not trying to embarass
           anyone, just curious on what is other point of view. -op
           \_ Complete government fuck-up all around, brought out the worst in
              "normal" people, those responsible should be sacked, shot and
              shot again, is that what you were looking for?  -John
        \_ Rita and Katrina prove one thing: the government is inefficient.
           Throwing more money at the government is not going to solve
           the problem. Look at the late 1800s. The fire department was
           privatized and they only had to put out fires for paying
           customers, and the end result was less idling firemen playing
           cards and more PROFITS. Let me ask you this. Today, except for
           the USPS which is not even funded by tax payers, which government
           agencies profit?
           \_ ...and lots of burned down cities, don't forget that.
              \_ Incomplete argument--burned down cities = economic output
                 dip = lower economic performance = impact on pocketbook of
                 those hiring private fire depts. = no more $$ to hire private
                 fire depts. = their houses burned down.  So does this mean
                 that funding a fire department is an example of Keynesian
                 economics?  -John
                 \_ What happens while your neighbor's house is on fire and
                    they aren't home?  Do you call your fire department (and
                    foot the bill)? Call around to try to determine which
                    fire department your neighbor has?  What happens when a
                    fire spreads from one building to another, such as from
                    a "paid up" warehouse to the apartment complex full of
                    poor families (likely not all paid up)?  -meyers
                    \_ I think you sort of missed my point, meyers.  -John
                    \_ (tongue in cheek since this is all silly) Presumably the
                       apartment complex or home owner's association would
                       charge a fire-fighting fee so you and your neighbor
                       would be on the same fire figther's network.  Then of
                       course there is the problem of who to call when you
                       see the apartment or house in the next neighborhood
                       on fire so we should really all band together to cut
                       costs and have a city wide fighter fighting company and
                       just charge a fee for it to reduce costs but of course
                       then another city upwind might be on fire and your
                       city directly borders theirs so really we should just
                       have a county wide fire department to better spread the
                       cost and since we all need it equally, hey let's just
                       have a 1/2 cent tax on all sales to fund it since an
                       individual share is to hard to calculate.
                       \_ Sounds like a tax to me.  -John
2005/9/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:39701 Activity:moderate
9/15    CNET: So that would be the philosophical difference between
        Microsoft and what Google is up to at this point?
        Gates: Well, we don't know everything they are up to, but we do
        know their slogan and we disagree with that.
        \_ Insulting, isn't it? It's like having Bush accuse someone else
           of being dumb.
           \_ You mean someone like Kerry, who did worse in college than
              Bush did?
              \_ Election's over, son.  Time to move on.
                 \_ Just blame everything on Clinton.
                 \_ There's always next season.
                 \_ There's always the next season.
                    \_ Maybe the Dems should've had Kerry, Edwards, Dean, and
                       that whole lot singing Tomorrow from Annie. "Tomorrow,
                       we're all undefeated again." -gm
           \_ The scary part is that Bush is NOT dumb.  It's all part of a real
              plan.  Presumably to distract the American sheeple while the
              robber barons slowly plunder the country.
              plan - Strategic Ignorance.
              \_ It's particularly distrubing when you see old videos of him
                 where he doesn't have his fake texas accent yet.
                 \_ accents are learned
2005/9/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:39562 Activity:nil
9/7     Want proof that Howard Dean is a left wing nut socialist?
        http://tinyurl.com/8hhws
        \_ If you ask a black person from New Orleans, what do you think
           they would say?  Well, they must be wrong, then.  Obviously.
           Black people are always screaming racism this racism that.
           And that means Dean is also nuts.
        \_ Why don't you just say, "Dubya treated the black people of New
           Orleans the same way that he would have treated his loyal base
           had disaster befallen them.  Obviously.  Therefore, Dean is a left
           wing nut socialist."
           Or how about, "Sure, race is a factor in everything.  That's just
           the reality.  But Dean is just stirring the pot for political gain,
           and that only divides America.  Therefore, Dean is a left wing nut
           socialist."
           What sounds better to you?  Yes, for some reason, I do appear to
           be helping your original post.
        \_ Big deal.  John Edwards was preaching class warfare last week.
                \_ I love it when Republicans say stuff like "We give a
                   big tax cut for dividends and the Democrats turn it into
                   class warfare"
                        \_ If nothing else, they are masters of pre-emptively
                           taking away their opponents position so that all
                           the other side can say is "Nuh uh, you are!"
2005/9/6-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:39522 Activity:nil
9/6     http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20050905/cm_huffpost/006844
        My mother always told me that when a person dies, one should not say
        anything bad about him. My mother was wrong (regarding Rehnquist).
        \- No matter what you think about CHITCHENS, you have to admit this
           is nicely phrased ... --psb
           \_ What are you talking about, that essay is by
              alan dershowitz - danh
                   \- i am talking about the quote below:
                   \- it's possible AD also re-quoted the same
                      samuel johnson quote but CHITCHENS is quoted
                      below and i have heard CH repeat the same quote
                      slightly differently phrased in an interview.
                      What are you talking about?
                A man is not  on his oath, said Samuel Johnson,
                when he  gives a funeral oration.  One ought to
                try and contest the underlying assumption here,
                which  condescendingly excuses those  who write
                nil nisi bonum of the dead.
2005/9/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:39418 Activity:nil
9/1     http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1759273,00.html
        So is there a liberal/conservative/libertarian/sodan/moderate view on
        this?
        \_ Great. Now how am I supposed to take a crap in the pool when
           they are filming me?
2005/8/31-9/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39402 Activity:nil
8/31    Yay humanity
        http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1174992&forum_id=26
        \_ Where are the National Guards to protect the people? This is sad.
           Orlean libertarians everywhere, helping themselves. Shame. Shame.
           \- in fairness, these arent libertarians. although in extra
              fairness, most libertarians i've met arent libertarians either.
           \_ NO libertarians are the ones most likely to have guns, a working
              generator and food/water storage and least in need of help.
2005/8/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic] UID:39165 Activity:nil
8/18    Apparently the crazy housing boom doesn't happen everywhere.
        For example, College Station TX, El Paso TX, Montgomery Alabami,
        Odessa TX, Memphis TN, etc decreased by 10% while cities like
        San Diego and Santa Barbara appreciated over 50%.
        http://tinyurl.com/b8dgq (USA Today, sources from National City Corp)
        \_ what a shock, prices go up in places where people want to live. -tom
           \_ Wait, does this imply people from Redneck states are moving
              out, and moving into MY liberal home town? Where my parents
              and great grand parents already stayed for generations?
        \_ heh, 1/2 of the housing fizzle come from Texas.
        \_ In Detroit many homes are available! http://csua.org/u/d2s
           \_ Man, Detroit is some shit.  Downtown is genuinely spooky -
              boarded up skyscrapers, no working traffic lights...
                \_ Detroit is the most liberal city in the US -- damn
                   liberuhls!
                   \_ If you think that's why Detroit is so fucked up, you
                      really don't know very much about Detroit.
                      \_ why Detroit is fucked up has certainly caused
                         it to become a liberal hotbed though.  If that's
                         what it takes for an area to become liberal,
                         America's too damn prosperous to be liberal.
2005/8/8-11 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:39035 Activity:nil
8/8     At least 80 wealthy liberals have pledged to contribute ...
        to compete with the potent conservative infrastructure built up
        over the past three decades.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/washpost/rich_liberals_vow_to_fund_think_tanks
        That's weird, I only heard about the conservative build-up now.
        I didn't know they have been building up even before I was born.
        \_ "The goal of the alliance, according to organizers, is to foster
           the growth of liberal or left-leaning institutions equipped to take
           on prominent think tanks on the right, including the Heritage
           Foundation, the Hoover Institution, the American Enterprise
           Institute and the Cato Institute, as well as such training centers
           as the Leadership Institute and the Young America's Foundation.

           Almost all the alliance partners have been active donors of the
           Democratic Party and liberal interest groups. Many said they have
           concluded that their spending to date has lacked strategic
           coherence."
           Oh give me a fucking break.  The Cato Institute is conspiring with
           the neocons as part of a Vast Rightwing Strategic Vision to Reshape
           the World.  The fact that 'the Left' is finding itself 'without a
           voice' is somewhat ironic.  Aside from Murdoc's holdings, American
           mainstream media has a mostly moderate-left presentation to it.
           It's probably moved to the right a little since 2004. -- ilyas
           \_ The left already has a huge, well funded national level organ
              for getting the word out: the public school system and vast
              majority of universities.  The problem the DNC has isn't getting
              the message out, it is the message.  Or lack thereof.
           \_ I don't think you can call it a conspiracy when it is
              right out there in the open like that. -ausman
              \_ So the Cato institute is a ring-wing organization now?
              \_ So the Cato institute is a right-wing organization now?
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ When wasn't it? It has been funded by Scaife, The Olin
                    Foundation and the usual batch of large corporations
                    from the start. A bunch of their "scholars" move around
                    between them, the AEI and The Hoover Institute, though
                    I would call them big business conservatives, as opposed
                    to the holy roller type, myself. -ausman
2005/8/5-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39023 Activity:kinda low
8/5     Liberals: It's over.  We lost.  For real.  We're fucked.
        http://newsforreal.blogspot.com/2005/08/august-1-2005.html
        \_ He's got a few fallacies, but I think he's more or less
           correct.  The Democratic party has spent the last 5 years, at
           least, yelling about issues that no longer apply,  and
           re-hashing old battles that are long over.  I would love to see
           the Dems come out of the 60's.  It is, if nothing else, surreal
           to see the Republicans fighting for equality and the Dems
           squabbaling about diction.  Please Dems, wake up to the 21st
           century, we need another party.
           On the other hand, here's a suprisingly lucid piece from
           Feinstein:
           http://csua.org/u/cya
           \_ Yes, and I'd like to add that Bay Area is totally utterly
              out of touch with the rest of the conservative America.
              \_ The Bay Area is out of touch with liberal America, too,
                 in many ways. Limousine liberals, mostly.
                 \_ You don't know what liberal means, dim.
                    \_ I'm the pp and I'm not dim. I'm using scp to
                       thwart the stupid John Ashcroft script.
                    \_ How would you know? I cite this as another example
                       of being out of touch with reality.
                 \_ I love driving my limo through the Fastrak lane. - danh
                    http://csua.org/u/cyc
        \_ If the Republicans are letting corporations get away with
           evil things, how come we're seeing a bunch of CEOs and
           managers go to jail?
           \_ Because, first, there is no agreement on what evil corporate
              behavior is, and, second, a whole lot of things that are
              considered as evil corporate behavior by some are not punishable
              by law. Those who go to jail obviously were caught breaking
              the law.
        \_ What's sad is people taking someone so logically weak seriously.
        \_ Republican majorities in all three branches of government have
           definite effects.  It also has the effect of:  Knowing who to
           blame when the shit hits the fan.
           The shit is hitting the fan, if you haven't noticed.
        \_ Don't be so pessimistic. There are issues where GWB's administration
           flatly failed (E.g. Social Security Privatization and judicial and
           UN ambassador nomination fiascos). Public discontent is also
           building up in a number of other areas (Iraq, the Plume affair, etc)
2005/8/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:38929 Activity:nil
8/2     Can someone define "social justice" for me?
        \_ "Social Justice" is someone's idea of how things ought to be
           run.  Depending on that person, it could mean universal health
           care, or executions for all murderers.
        \_ A simple definition would be "A fair society" where 'fair' is a
           matter of debate, but it is more commonly used by Liberals to
           refer to helping some disadvantaged group.
2005/7/22-25 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38781 Activity:nil
7/22    "Each time the political machine made up of prime-time patriots
        and partisan ninnies display their ignorance by deriding Valerie
        Plame as a mere paper pusher or belittling the varying degrees of
        cover used to protect our officers or continuing to play partisan
        politics with our national security, it's a disservice to this
        country," -retired CIA case officer Jim Marcinkowski
        http://csua.org/u/cth
        \_ SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!!!!1!!1!1!!!! --!jblack
           \_ No one forces you to read the motd.
2005/7/19 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38702 Activity:low
7/19    Our next Supreme Court justice better not be a retard.
        Sandra Day graduated 3rd out of 102 from Stanfraud, I mean, Stanfurd
        Law, and in two years.
        \_ Why?  Kerry only averaged a C at Yale, and most here thought he
           was presidential material.
           \_ Wow.  Yer dumb.
           \_ Yeah, Dubya did worse at Yale (on average and trend-wise), and
              look at his Presidency!  Leadership!
              \_ "Bush had received a cumulative score of 77 for his first
                 three years at Yale and a roughly similar average under a
                 non-numerical rating system during his senior year...
                 [Kerry] got a cumulative 76 for his four years...  Like
                 Kerry, Bush reportedly suffered through a difficult freshman
                 year and then pulled his grades up."
                 http://csua.org/u/chg
                 \_ neither Kerry and Bush were anywhere close to Bill
                 \_ Neither Kerry nor Bush were anywhere close to Bill
                    Clinton.  Bush just *looks* like a total moron when
                    speaking -- it's a carefully honed act ... Not to say
                    he's a genius or anything, but he's nowhere near stupid.
                    he's a genius, but he's nowhere near stupid.  He knows
                    what he's doing which makes it yet scarier sometimes.
                    \_ Both Kerry and Bush would be among the duller lights
                       among aquaintances of folks on soda.  However, claiming
                       that Dubya did worse at Yale was factually incorrect.
                       \_ You're talking to the wrong guy.  "Okay, you got me"
                          is the same guy that said "Dubya did worse"
                 \_ Okay, you got me.  Dubya did a little better or the same
                    than Kerry (depending on how you view 1 point and 3 years
                    numerical grading Dubya versus 4 years Kerry), but Kerry
                    did have the better trend owing to being Mr. Distinction
                    in his freshman year (4 D's out of 10 classes).
                    \_ Since you insist on arguing the point, taking into
                       acount that both Kerry and Bush trended upwards, Kerry's
                       score was certainly less than 76 after 3 years, and Bush
                       would have gotten a higher score than 77 after 4 years
                       had he received a numeric score for his last year.
                       So the delta between them at the end of both year 3 and
                       4 would have been greater than 1 point.  Meaningful?
                       No.  Correcting a logical error?  Yes.
                       \_ Huh, what are you talking about?  I'm agreeing with
                          you:  "Dubya did a little better or the same than
                          Kerry".
                          \_ "depending on how you view 1 point and 3 years
                             numerical grading Dubya versus 3 years Kerry)"
                             \_ Yes, but the key is that I acknowledge that
                                Kerry did not do better than Dubya.
        \_ Gates dropped out of college.
           \_ So did psb.
        \_ it doesn't take a genius to vote no to abortions. any monkey can.
        \_ Rehnquist was #1
        \_ Class rank means nothing. Chief Justice John Marshall only had
           6 weeks of legal education but most jurists consider him one of
           (if not the) greatest men to ever sit on the Court.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38683 Activity:high
7/18    I deleted the whiner's thread.  I'd like to know the facts on this.  I
        can't see from the facts why people are upset at Rove, and I'm trying
        to figure this all out.
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.
        \_ Rove helped orchestrate the whispering campaign against McCain and
           was instrumental in making a triple-amputee war veteran look soft
           on defense. He's a dirty politics player, and he's truly lowered
           the tone of the game. This is simply the biggest thing anyone's
           come close to catching him on.
           \_ A couple of non sequiturs there.  I voted for McCain in the 2000
              primary and am now glad he lost, so if Rove helped him avoid the
              nomination, I'd like to shake his hand.  As for Cleland, being a
              triple-amputee doesn't make you immune against accusations of
              being soft on defense (because he was IMO).
              \_ Why are you glad McCain lost the 2000 primary?
                 \_ Ilyas got it in one.  McCain has shown himself to be
                    someone just looking for attention and quite handily gutted
                    the 1st amendment (with help from SCOTUS of course).
                    \_ If money is speech, would you allow paying people to
                       vote for your guy?
                       \_ Is an ad on TV speech?
                          \_ This is the issue in a nutshell. I can understand
                             why people would be inclined to consider an ad
                             speech. However, given the power of mass-
                             marketing these days and the advent of a
                             professional marketing class, I cannot in good
                             accept that a paid advertisement constitutes
                             speech any more than propaganda does. These highly
                             refined messages need regulation to help sort out
                             truth from blatant lies or we end up with Hearst-
                             esque yellow journalism and mass hysteria.
                             \_ How do you distinguish 'paid advertisement' from
                                any other kind? -- ilyas
                                \_ Because I have an unhealthy distrust of
                                   money and oligarchs.
                                   \_ Uh, I don't think you understood my
                                      question. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Sorry, read "why" for "how." Answer:
                                         not sure. Well-worth investigating
                                         further.
                                         \_ I think what I am trying to get at
                                            is not only all advertisement
                                            'paid,' but there is no clear line
                                            between advertisement and
                                            political speech in general.  I
                                            would much rather put up with
                                            unhealthy influence of money in
                                            politics than establish a pattern
                                            of government regulation of
                                            political speech.  A separate
                                            question worth thinking about is
                                            whether it is even possible to
                                            eliminate the influence of money
                                            from politics.  -- ilyas
                    \_ Your money does not get to vote. If you are allowed to
                       throw money around to purchase access to mass media to
                       broadcast catchy propaganda, the purpose of the 1st
                       Amendment becomes lost in the signal-to-noise ratio.
                       \_ To both of you:  is a web page speech?  Do you know
                          how McCain-Feingold affects a webpage?
              \_ I voted for McCain and REALLY wish he had won. Part of the
                 reason I liked McCain is b/c he doesn't go in for the kind
                 of stuff that the Bush camp implicitly supports (ex. Swift
                 Boat Vets) and he supported campaign finance reform (just
                 b/c you have more money doesn't mean your pov should be
                 preferred over other povs - think of this as reverse free
                 speech, you shouldn't be able to drown me out b/c you can
                 afford a bigger loudspeaker). Additionally, McCain wouldn't
                 have messed up the world as much as the Bush administration.
           \_ Yeah, I don't really understand what being an amputee has to do
              with having political clue in and of itself.  Re: McCain he
              probably doesn't like McCain's take on free speech. -- ilyas
        \_ Check out the wikipedia Rove article. Has some lesser known dirt.
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.  Why should we listen to a censor?
           [restored]
        \_ Rove outed an undercover CIA agent to a reporter, or at the
           very least, confirmed this information so he could publish her
           name and ruin her career and risk everyone overseas who ever
           worked with her. Enough for you?
           \_ Sigh.  The email to Cooper was to discredit her husband, not her.
2005/7/16-18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38659 Activity:kinda low
7/16    This guy will make John Kerry proud:
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/15/marine.shooting.ap
        \_ Son, the election's been over for some time now.  Move on, already.
        \_ Why?  Did the bullet just graze the guy's skin?
        \_ Hm, given that he already spent time in both Iraq and Indonesia, I
           can only assume that he would do a lot of other people proud
           as well.  -John
2005/7/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38623 Activity:high
7/14    ok conservative pigfuckers, why does it matter whether valerie
        plame authorized her husband going to Niger to report
        selling yellowcake?  How does this affect whether Rove should
        be punished for revealing she has been a deep undercover
        agent for the last 20 years?
        \_ Because everything is politics.  There is no right and wrong.
           If you make everyone look equally sleazy, you can get away with
           anything.
        \_ there's an article on Salon I think today from sid blumenthal
           saying that Wilson's wife never authorized the trip, and in any
           case was not in a position to even authorize it.  also I agree
           that who cares who authorized the trip?  Does anyone remember
           Ed "pig biting mad" Anger? - danh
           \_ They don't care if anyone actually believes. They're just trying
              to spread FUD.  Don't buy into it.
        \_ I'm not a pigfucker, but I'll give it a go.  No one is saying that
           Plame authorized the trip.  My understanding is that Rove was
           saying to Cooper, "don't pay attention to this Wilson guy, because
           he only got the trip because his wife's in the CIA".  We now know
           that Plame *did* recommend her husband.  I've never seen his report
           (which Wilson claims showed that Iraq had not been looking for U in
           Niger).  The point is, Wilson has already been shown to be a lying
           sleezeball.  It doesn't look like Rove really did anything wrong.
           \_ Who cares about Wilson.  No matter what happened (And I think
              your whole Wilson was lieing is full of shit.) Rove LEAKED
              a covert CIA agent's cover.  A covert CIA agent who was working
              with preventing WMD proliferation.  Rove leaked the name for
              no reason other than to get back at someone.  In the process he
              also leaked a CIA cover company and destroyed other agent's
              covers.  Why are you trying to defend this?
           \_ read http://tinyurl.com/8obkt . The article says "
              wilson's wife did not authorize the trip."  but like i said,
              who cares who authorized the trip?  - danh
              \_ dan, use motdedit. you stomped on me.
           \_ How often does it have to be said.  Repeating it doesn't make
              it true.  What did he lie about?  How does it feel to defend
              someone who single-handedly demolished a CIA front company?
              \_ You know what's really sad?  Both you and pp are both just
                 regurgitating talking points drafted by someone else.
                 The Republicans are much better at this sort of Pravdaesque
                 manipulation, so I expect them to survive this quite nicely.
                 \_ you got me, I read the same stuff everyone else does.
                    It infuriates me when someone prints in the media the
                    exact polar opposite of what actually occured.  For example
                    read in the Chronicle: http://tinyurl.com/c77w2
                    I am pretty sure Wilson's report said that Niger was not
                    selling yellowcake to Iraq.  It's like the officers
                    beating Rodney King claiming they were beating the
                    crap out of him to help out his skin complexion.  - danh
        \_ Wilson, through his Congressional testimony that
           contradicts his newspaper articles and quotes, has
           already been proven a fraud.  Even Kerry, who initially
           appointed Wilson an advisor, backed away from him during
           the election.  What you likely have here is an attempt by the
           Democrats and their media abettors to create a scandal
           during an election season that has subsequently blown
           up in their face.  Of course time will tell.
           Since Wilson had extensive business interests in Africa and
           Middle East, including Niger, his wife's role in
           his selection is very pertinent.
           \_ did you read danh's link?
           \_ What's most important though, is that each of these claims is
              irrelevant.
              irrelevant to the subject at hand.  Rove outed a CIA agent.
              It wouldn't matter if Joe Wilson was the seven-headed beast of
              the apocalypse.
           \_ Point out a lie. Please. Still waiting.
        \_ So, I haven't been following this too closely, but everything
           I've read seems to indicate that Rove did not actually leak
           classified info.  Saying 'X' works at the CIA, especially when
           such fact is already known, is not a leak.  It only became a
           'leak' when it turned out that she was actually undercover at
           the time, which apparently Rove didn't know.  How can someone
           leak info they don't know?  Rove's actions in trying to
           discredit Wilson, while not pure, are at least reasonable in
           that Wilson is actually not very credible.  I think that's the
           only reason anyone cares about Wilson.  I think danh's link was
           the most balanced thing I've read though... -jrleek
           \_ Did you actually read danh's link?  Quote:
              No, Rove didn't "reveal the name." But the law doesn't cite
              that as a felony; it only specifies revealing the "identity" as
              a crime. It says nothing about a "name."  Rove revealed "Joe
              Wilson's wife." That qualifies as an "identity."  By the way,
              Plame did not go by the name of Plame, but Wilson -- in other
              words, Mrs. Wilson, or "Joe Wilson's wife." Rove seemed to know
              that much -- her identity."
              Also, what do you mean by "especially when such fact is
              already known"?  Are you saying it was widely known that
              Plame was a NOC working in weapons of mass destruction for CIA?
              I mean, it certainly became widely known she was a CIA agent
              working WMDs after Novak's article.
              \_ The law also requires you to have learned the identity and/or
                 status from classified sources, and have the intent to expose
                 the agent.  It appears now that Rove learned that Wilson's
                 wife was in the CIA from Novak (not a classified source) and
                 that his purpose was to warn Cooper away from trusting Wilson
                 as a source because he got the Niger job not because of
                 qualifications but because of family ties.  No, Plame didn't
                 /approve/ the job (she didn' thave the authority), but she
                 /did/ present Wilson's name as a candidate (which Wilson
                 denies but which has been proven in a memo found by the Senate
                 Intelligence Committee). -emarkp
                \_ I think you're chewing on RNC talking points this morning.
                   What would make Wilson more qualified?  He served as a
                   diplomat in Niger, Togo, Burundi, South Africa,
                   Gabon, and Sao Tome, plus Iraq.  The CIA claims that
                   Wilson was chosen based on his experiences, not because
                   of who his wife is. - danh
                   \_ Well, the CIA _did_ screw up the pre-war intel, so
                      we know how reliable they are....
                   \_ I don't think he was unqualified.  But that's what Rove
                      was trying to say.  I find it odd that Wilson denies that
                      his wife recommended him.  At any rate, I haven't read
                      any "RNC talking points" this morning. -emarkp
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38584 Activity:high
7/12    This isn't a Democrat vs. Republican issue. This is a
        we've-gone- through-a-wormhole-into-a-nightmare-alternative-universe
        -where-Greg Stillson-from-THE DEAD ZONE-got-elected-president-and-
        the-sound-of-demon-trumpets-are-cracking-the-horizon kinda thing.
        Republicans. I don't have any bad feelings for you as individuals
        or even as a group. The fact is, this time you guys fucked up.
        You backed the wrong horse, and we're going over the cliff.
        There's no harm, no foul, in throwing up your hands and saying,
        "Whoops!" Didn't we kinda do that when we nominated losers like
        Mondale and Dukakis? I promise we won't rub it in your faces about
        Bush in the future. It was a fuck-up, and we all make them.
        Hey, four years of Kerry and you guys'll probably find some dude
        who can actually speak in public, isn't a dry drunk, and doesn't
        believe in angels the way Oprah, Melanie Griffith and Anne Heche
        all do.
        \_ Amazing.  You just don't get it.  Oh well, 60 senate seats aren't
           far away.
           \_ Fortunately I have duel citizenship, so I can get the fuck out
           \_ Fortunately I have dual citizenship, so I can get the fuck out
              once we live in a theocracy.  I love America but I wouldn't
              love a Christian Iran run by the American Taliban.
              \_ Duel Citizenship?  Is that like some PvP-oriented MMORPG I
                 haven't played yet?
                 \_ It means you can become a full citizen if you successfully
                    kill an existing citizen in a duel.
                    \_ Sweet!  Sounds like an old Schwarzenegger movie.
                       \_ No, Dune.
                          \_ Uh, no.
              \_ What is your other citizenship?
              \_ Then leave now.  The "I know better than you" attitude is
                 something that we really don't need.
                 \_ What part of "I love America" don't you understand,
                    motherfucker?
           \_ What does exactly does he "not get," and what will the 60
              Senate seats help to change about that?  Reeducation camps?
                \_ That momentum is moving towards a Republican dictatorship,
                   and once they get a filibuster proof Senate and 2 or 3
                   extremist Supreme court justices they will basically be
                   able to do whatever the fuck they want, and the American
                   sheeple will go along with it.
        \_ A small minority of us republicans are still upset that the
           Bush campaign smeared McCain in order to get him out of the
           running in 2K. iirc, Sith Lord Rove was responsible.
           \_ We dodged a bullet.  McCain is more interested in castrating the
              1st amendment than Bush is or Ashcroft ever was.  And he actually
              succeeded.
                \_ You mean the interpretation of the 1st amendment which
                   says campaign contributions == free speech which threw the
                   door wide open to legalalized bribery/corruption?
                   door wide open to legalalized bribery/corruption?  Yeah,
                   door wide open to legalized bribery/corruption?  Yeah,
                   that really makes a democracy flourish!
                   \_ Did you know that any website that says anything about a
                      political candidate falls under the requirement that
                      you must register as if you donated to a campaign?  Yeah,
                      that restraint of free speech.  You know, the amendment
                      says "congress shall make no law".
                      \_ So far, this is all just talk by the FCC. This
                         is not true yet and almost assuredly will not
                         pass judicial muster.
              \_ I am pro-campaign finance reform. Campaigns should not be
                 about who can raise the most money and buy the most TV time
                 for BS like the swift boat vets ads. They should be about
                 IDEAS. May the best IDEA win, not the richest dude.
2005/7/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:38563 Activity:nil
7/12    CPB ombudsmen report back on NPR bias: thumbs-up
        http://csua.org/u/cos (wash post)
2005/7/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38529 Activity:nil
7/11    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1440743/posts
        While Democrats say they are raising money at a faster pace than in
        2003, they face a formidable challenge from the Republican National
        Committee, which was out-raising Democrats at a 2-1 pace through May
        of this year.
2005/7/2-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38399 Activity:high
7/2     "MSNBC Analyst Says Cooper Documents Reveal Karl Rove as Source In
        Plame Case"
        http://csua.org/u/cla (mediainfo.com)
        \_ Do they still shoot traitors?
        \_ Do they still hang traitors?
        \_ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
           \_ Ahh, Newsweek.  Counting the minutes until this turns into
              another LGF-wank-fest.
        \_ There probably won't be any fallout from this.  The bar for
           impeachable offense was lowered for Clinton and raised for Bush.
           \_ fallout != impeachment.  Bush probably can't be impeached
              for this, for reasons why, see Regan.  That doesn't mean
              there won't be fallout.
                \_ What I meant is that it is silly to think that Bush &
                   Cheney didn't know about this/plan this.  There probably
                   won't be any fallout and it will be like Reagan if there
                   is.
                   \_ If they indict Rove over the leak, he could serve
                      a prison sentence. A non-Rove WH would be some
                      serious fallout.
                      \_ Two words: Presidential pardon.  Rove isn't going
                         anywhere, even if something does come out of this which
                         I kinda doubt.
                         \_ Oh come ON.  Vush wouldn't use a presidential
                         \_ Oh come ON.  Bush wouldn't use a presidential
                            pardon on Rove in this case.  Haven't you
                            noticed?  Even since Nixon, When Republicans
                            do something stupid, and it's proven, they get
                            thrown to the dogs.
                            \_ And then come back 15 years later to run random
                               agencies and embasseys...
                               agencies and embassies...
                            \_ Reagan pardoned half a dozen of the Iran-Contra
                               crowd, as well as quote a few major donors
                               who had been convicted of violating campaign
                               finance laws.
        \_ Rove's lawyer is saying he didn't mention her name ... the notes
           aren't clear what exactly Rove said.
           \_ You could still get stuff like "His wife is an undercover CIA
              agent."  where anyone could then look up the marriage or mortgage
              records.
        \_ Rove is not the target of the Special Investigation
           http://csua.org/u/cln (Washington Post)
        \_ Newswekk rundown of the story:
           http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek
        \_ Comment here by jblack.
            \_ Go fuck yourself.
           \_ Found another easy target?  Got bored with emarkp and williamc?
              How predictable.  -John
           \_ Go fuck yourself.  And you can go fuck yourself as well, mr.
              selective censor guy. Censorship is always wrong, even when
              the individual you're censoring does not believe in freedom.
              \_ Ah, but you see, now jblack's comments are DIE FRUCHT
                 VERBOTTEN!  It's free advertising for a point of view!
                 Delete me next, motd censor-man!  Not enough people pay
                 attention to me. -- ilyas
        \_ go fuck yourself jblack.
        \_ Oh yes Lawrence O'Donnell of freak out 'liar' fame who has
           also stated he doesn't care if soldiers are demoralized
           by Kerry's Iraq negativity.
           by Kerry's Iraq negativity. -jblack
        http://www.streamload.com/donnyd413/OReilly_clips/Scarborough_Country-.wmv
           \_ Go fuck yourself.
           \- if it turns out ROVE is culpable of some significant wrong
              [and i am deliberately not framing this in legal terms] i
              think it will be interesting to see who will defend this.
              you can agree on the facts yet have different opinions
              about some of the BILLARY scandals, but something like the
              MARC RICH pardon was just indefensible and somebody who
              tries to justify that should lose all credibility. it's
              possible a FUD strategy will work here ... as we saw with
              the SWIFTBOAT campaign, betting on STUPIDITY is close to a
              sure thing.
              \_ I have yet to see anyone disprove John Oneill's
                 accusations.  Kerry hasn't even signed 180 and its
                 been what 250+ days? -jblack
                 \_ where the fuck have you been? he signed this a month ago.
                    \_ It was never posted on The Free Republic, so jblack
                       never heard about it...
                 \- kerry was within shooting distance of the enemy.
                    bush avoided going to fight in a war he supported.
                    that's the relelvant issue. not how many stitches
                    did kerry get in vietnam. we're not comparing
                    mccain vs dole in terms of who made greater
                    sacrifices. if you want to compare whether clinton
                    of bush is a bigger coward, that is also reasonable.
                    \_ I don't really know what Kerry's war record is, and
                       I don't care.  However, saying that Kerry
                \_ Bush never signed his Form 180. And Kerry has signed
                   his, better late than never.
                   http://mediamatters.org/items/200409100001
                   http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010795.php
            \_ Really sad to see you defending traitors like that. I thought
               you loved your country more than your party. Guess I pegged
               you wrong on that.
2005/7/1-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38388 Activity:moderate
7/1     http://csua.org/u/cki
        "Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman on the Supreme Court, announced
        her retirement Friday."
        \_ Ok, someone had this scoop on the motd days ago.  How did that
           happen?
           \- Judicious Branch Prediction (SDO apparently let it slip before
              ALGOR v BUSH was decided). ok tnx.
              \_ Does the psb understand that jokes are supposed to be funny?
        \_ Will Bush appoint Torquemada to replace her?
                \- I spoke to my contacts in the Invisible Empire
                   of Legal Homosexuals.
                \- I spoke to my contacts in the invisible empire
                   of legal homosexuals.
           \_ My money is on Ashcroft.
                 \- i would like to bet you that it
                    will NOT be Ashcroft. can you
                    get in touch with me. tnx. --psb
                        \- BTW, i dont think the first BUSHCO appointee
                           will be alberto "torture memo" gonzalez. i
                           assume for the first one he is also not going
                           to do something odd like nominate R GUILLALNANAI.
                    \_ I'm hoping that Bush picks Posner.
              \- i would like to bet you that it will not be Ashcroft.
                 can you get in touch with me. tnx. --psb
                       \- POSNER would have been a great choice for CHIEF
                          but i think he's pissed off a lot of people.
                          i think the only way he would get in is if MCCAIN
                          had somehow captured the BALLS of BUSHCO and for
                          some reason decided to push POSNER. rmember POSNER
                          said things like the 9-11 commission proposals
                          on centralizing intelligence was dumb and i doubt
                          on centralizing intelligence were dumb and i doubt
                          he believes in wacky social conservative ideas.
                          \_ It's Partha the Pinhead!
                             \- ZIPPY would have capitalized words like
                                "wacky" above.
                             \_ M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead
        \_ Wow, she's retiring before Renquist?  My theory was they will
           retire together, which makes getting replacements in easier for
           whatever administration is in power (more room for compromise with
           2 seats). -- ilyas
           \_ A blogger surmised that Rehnquist wants to wait till Sept. to
              retire so that the current set of justices will set the record
              for continuous service time.  O'Conner will stay on past Sept.
              since she's waiting for a successor to be appointed.
              \_ Constitutionally can she do this?  Can an appointment begin
                 while the justice is still on the court?  I doubt it.
                 \_ You're an idiot.
2005/6/24-27 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38295 Activity:high
6/24    [from the thread way down below]
        \_ FWIW, I think this was John "I covered Lady Justice's Titties"
           Ashcroft's doing.
           \_ He might not have bothered if it weren't the case that so many
              photogrophers liked to snap pics of him with the titties in the
              background.
              \_ Possible, but it's still unbelievably stupid.
                 \_ Really?  Check: http://csua.org/u/cij
                 \_Really?http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1430134/posts
                    Maybe stupid of the photographers.
                    \_ It's so fun watching freepers implode.  I really liked
                       the "IT WAS JANET RENO" kneejerks.  wow.
                    \_ Whatever the photographers were doing, covering the
                       status is a petulant, stupid response motivated by
                       Puritanism of the worst kind.  Why should he be
                       embarassed to be in front of Lady Justice?  Anyone who
                       finds that statue to be "lascivious" has got real
                       problems and should seek help.
                       \_ The slew of photos designed to frame a breast in the
                          same image as Ashcroft's face was nothing more than
                          junior-high school level sniggering.  An alternative
                          could have been to ban photographers.  I see covering
                          the statues as a reasonable way to deny the juveniles
                          their fun at his expense.
                          \_ You're as much of an uptight prude as Ashcroft,
                             apparently.  By the way, the Gonzales Justice
                             Department has "disrobed" the statue.
                          \_ You clearly don't know anything about photography.
                             The statue of lady Justice has *symbolic meaning*.
                             Photos will be more interesting with something
                             from the background included in the frame than
                             if it's just Ashcroft's head or the podium.
                             Only an idiot would think it's done to
                             specifically highlight the breast.  -tom
                             \_ I won't defend Ashcroft, but I'm certain
                                the picture of Ed Meese delivering his
                                report on pornography with those breasts
                                in the background was meant to feature
                                that feature.  -mel
                             \_ The more Ashcroft was shown to be a prude,
                                though, I wouldn't have put it past
                                photographers to do it intentionally. --dbushong
                       \_ I can think of a lot of reasons John Ashcroft should
                          be ashamed to be seen in front of Lady Justice.
2005/6/23-25 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38265 Activity:nil
6/23    A Roman Catholic Republican senator sponsored the Morning-After-Pill
        bill in NY.  Politics has changed?
        \_ Some people just have good sense. (I assume you're speaking of the
           OTC Morning after bill)
        \_ ObjblackRant
           \_ This is not up on Free Republic yet. C'mon jblack, you need
              to post it there so we can put it on the motd.
        \_ John Kerry is (supposedly) a RC.  Some RC don't believe he should be
           allowed communion.  Is the RC above cut from the same cloth?
           \_ Listening to non-Roman Catholics discuss the orthodoxy of Roman
              Catholics is as relevant as playing the commentary track on a
              pr0n DVD while you're trying to get into the mood.
2005/6/23 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38257 Activity:kinda low
6/23    since the neoconRIAAhedonismhating drones on Soda hated
        the daily show archive and got it deleted, can someone point
        me somewhere online where tonight's daily show with Howard
        Dean will appear? - danh
        \_ sloda had a daily show archive? damn. I wish I knew.
        \_ Try Usenet in a couple of days.
        \_ Let me take this opportunity to heartily thank the
           the generous soul who was running the archive. It was a
           much appreciated slice of home and a way to keep informed
           about what was going on in the US. - ciyer
           \_ You were using the Daily Show as a news source?  Are you insane?
              \_ Well, it tends to be a better news source than Fox, CNN, or
                 anything else on television news.
                 \_ By what standard?  It's a pick of the news stories that
                    make the best jokes.
                    \_ By the standard of the rest of television news.  Have
                       you seen what passes for a "serious" news show these
                       days?  Have you watched Nancy Grace's show, for
                       instance?
              \_ Shrug. The show is much more entertaining than, let's say,
                 our "paper of record". For topics that were sufficiently
                 interesting, I'd also read articles from more traditional
                 news sources.
                 interesting / important, I'd also read articles from
                 more traditional news sources.
                 \_ Yes it's entertaining.  But it's not news.
           about what was going on back in the US. - ciyer
           \_ mehlhaff thanks you too for being a loyal archive viewer.
              mehlhaff would be more than welcome to accept any token of
              appreciation, especially donations.
2005/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38126 Activity:high
6/14    Gotta love the House
        http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.24.IH
        \_ Sponsored by 4 democrats and one republican.
           \_ Well, it makes sense.  The only President to serve more than
              two terms was a Democrat.
              \_ Who?
                 \_ FDR.  Elected to four terms.  Died in the first year of his
                    fourth term.  Learn some history.
                    \_ Thx.  When did we start limiting presidents to serving
                       two terms?  And something bad triggered it?
                       \_ I think FDR triggered it
                       \_ Washington started it as a policy in order to
                          avoid autocracy or personal dynasty in the office
                          of president.  FDR was just the first president to
                          break with the policy, after which it was legislated.
                          \_ ^policy^tradition
                       \_ The 22nd Amendment limits people to 2 terms as
                          president. The fact that FDR kept getting elected
                          was the motivation. Truman was exempt from the 2
                          term limit but voluntarily chose to forgo a 3d
                          term (he probably wouldn't have won one anyway).
                        http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment22
                 \_ Wow.  You WENT to Berkeley?
                    \_ As a foreign student I never took any American History
                       class.
                       \_ Again, you WENT to Berkeley?  Well, I guess if you
                          were in CoE, you might have slipped by without AmHist
        \_ WTF are they smoking? Term limits are really important for the
           President.
           \_ Not for President For Life George W Bush!
              \_ What about President For Choice John Kerry?
              \_ Does anyone serious believe this?
2005/6/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Reference/Religion] UID:38067 Activity:high
6/9     John Green of U. Akron in Ohio says 80% of Christians are Republicans
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8131907
        \_ and I've read around 80% of Americans consider themselves Christian
           \_ Both Gore and Kerry are Christian. I am not sure what the
              OP's point is.
              \_ I imagine the op is trying to support Dean's claim that the
                 Republican party is the "white Christian party".
                 \_ So does that make the Democratic Party the "blaxploitation
                    party"?
2005/6/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38007 Activity:low
6/7     Hey Swift Boat Troll!  Kerry finally signed Form 180!  Aren't you
        happy?  Oh, woops, the records show his service was exemplary...
        http://csua.org/u/c9t (boston.com)
        \_ "No after-action report for the incident has been found."  Guess he
           got the records "taken care of" before signing the form.
           \_ That's right, he got his dad, the former head of the CIA, to
              pull strings to have the report removed. Whoops, my bad, I'm
              obviously talking about the other candidate in 2004.
              \_ Because a current Senator has *no* pull at all with anyone.
        \_ I'm curious to see whatever comes out about his discharge.
        \_ When is GWB going to sign his Form 180?
           \_ Maybe on the Friday afternoon before he leaves office?  Just a
              guess. -emarkp
              \_ Well, yeah, except Dubya doesn't have to because he's not
                 eligible and angling for another presidential run.
                 \_ Exactly.  Which is why I guessed that.  Or he may not sign
                    it at all. -emarkp
                    \_ Probably not != I guess
                       \_ Uhm, huh?  What are you smokin'?
           \_ Maybe on the Friday afternoon before he leaves office?
              Probably not. -emarkp
        \_ essentially Kerry released exactly the same records he did
           prior to the election.  180 does not mean all records are
           automatically released, they are still sent to Kerry first then
           he chooses.
           \_ In another Boston Globe article:
              "Late last month, Kerry gave the Navy permission to send the
              documents to the Globe."
              One of these new documents was his Yale transcript.
              Yeah, not much to do with Vietnam service, but embarrassing
              nonetheless.
2005/6/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38003 Activity:high
6/7     Turns out Kerry and the "Chimp" were equally bad students at Yale:
        http://tinyurl.com/dco6d (boston.com)
        \_ yeah 4 Ds vs 1 D
                \_ 5 (Kerry) vs 1 (Bush)
        \_ Same grades, but Kerry raised up his GPA in his junior and senior
           years while Bush kept it the same.
        \_ How about Clinton and Senior Bush? Were they good students?
           \_ Supposedly Clinton was pretty smart, don't know about Bush.
              I'd have to say that the last well educated president was
              Carter (PhD Nuclear Engineering).
              \_ Someone claims Carter says "nukular"
              \_ Carter was a nuclear engineer, but he did not have a
                 PhD in it. Clinton was a Rhodes scholar.
                 \_ I've heard that Clinton was #2 at Yale, and his wife was
                    #1. Never seen any reports backing this up though.
                 \_ And Reagan?
                    \_ BA Economics Eureka College. Okay student and
                       football player.
                 \_ Didn't realize his PhD was honorary - sorry.
        \_ If anything this proves that Kerry is a lot dumber than Bush. If
           Bush joins the frat, drinks beer, and parties all day and still
           manages to gets a C average than studious Kerry, then Kerry is
           just plain dumb.
2005/6/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37965 Activity:high
6/3     I once read an article that says 70% of the Jews vote Democrat. Now,
        I kind of understand why 90% of the Blacks vote Democrat because it
        probably has something to do with Civil Liberty, but why Jews? I mean,
        don't they have the most [financial incentive] by voting Republican?
        \_ A large fraction of the Jews in my family are Trotskyist athiests.
           They typically hold their nose and vote Democrat, though.  I have
           seen no correlation between their income and their political
           positions.  One of the most dogmatic Trotskyists is a multi
           millionaire.
        \_ Plus religious incentive.
           \_ Actually, in a recent article, the Economist argued that
              the process of defection of religious Jews from the Dem. to
              republican party has started during the 2004 election. In fact,
              one major thing that delayed this process was the fact that Joe
              Lieberman was running for vice pres. on the democratic ticket in
              2000.  They argued that these days people are starting to vote
              for one or another party not based on which religion they follow
              but based on the intensity of their faith. Given that, I wonder
              if this is also going to apply to blacks many of whom are
              religious and socially conservative.
              \_ Hello? Where have you been? Many Latinos and Blacks already
                 switched to Bush in 2004. California Latinos are much more
                 likely to go for Bush for whatever the reason. Even Asians,
                 \_ I think you pulled this from your ass.  in fact the one
                    report of an exit poll i just found had CA latinos voting
                    almost 3-1 for kerry.
                    \_ used to be 7-1 for Democrat 10 years ago. ?Que Paso?
                       \_ determined media campaigns.
                 esp. greedy Asian immigrants favor Bush for obvious reasons--
                 they fall into certain tax brackets that Kerry promised to
                 raise. Even Taiwanese people favor Bush because they believe
                 that Bush has the guts to stand up to China (which is totally
                 bullshit). Back in 2004 I saw quite a few Bush commercials
                 on channel 18, foreign channel, and none from Kerry. It's sad
                 to say this but Bush did a much better job appealing to
                 minority voters than his predecessors. As a result of double
                 fuckups from Gore and Kerry, we'll most likely see similar
                 voting patterns in 2008.           -Pissed Off Asian Liberal
        \_ What party was Lincoln?
        \_ Wow, that's one of the more racist comments I've seen.  All Jews are
           rich, eh?
           \_ You're mixing up the word racist and stereotype. I've always
              thought racist remarks are derogatory stereotypes. For example,
              the statement "all Asians are smart" is a stereotype but not
              racist. The statement "all Asians are sneaky" is a racist remark.
              \_ Wrong.  Both comments are racist stereotypical remarks.
              \_ You're an idiot.
                 \_ From Merriam Webster: "a belief that some races are by
                    nature superior to others." You're right, I'm an idiot.
                    \_ Yup, and you won't even realize it..
                       \_ Wow, you're a jerk. -!pp
              \_ No, I'm pretty sure racist just means "race based
                 stereotype."
                 \_ I think it's important to distinguish illegal acts inspired
                    by racism (such as discrimination, or racial violence)
                    and race-based stereotypes themselves.  I, personally, have
                    no problems with valid stereotypes, race-based or not.  If
                    that's racism, then I have no problem with that form of
                    racism. -- ilyas
                    \_ Russians are always drinking Vodka and drive like
                       they're drunk. It's a miracle that during the cold war
                       they didn't accidentally launch a nuke.
              \_ No, it's a fact.
           \_ No offense if you're a white trailer Joe, but on average, Jews
              have 2X the income and more than 2X the likelihood of going to
              college. In another word, Jews are smarter and more wealthy than
              your average trailer trash Joe that voted for Georgy.
              http://www.jbuff.com/c052302.htm
              \_ I guess I have elaborated more:  all Jews are rich and that's
                 the only thing they care about?
        \_ I find it worrisome that the plebes are beginning to accept the
           idea of talking about "the jews" as some monolithic social body.
           It showcases a pretty spectacular decline in the level of
           civilization of the lower classes.  -John
           \_ I find it worrisome that John is beginning to accept the idea of
              talking about "the plebes" as some monolithic social body.
                -- ilyas
           \_ Hooookay....
           \_ Ever heard the saying "Ask 2 Jews, get 3 opinions"?
              \_ No, but I've heard from a self deprecating Jew that to be a
                 Jew, you need to have a lot of money and a nose job.
2005/6/3-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37956 Activity:nil
6/3     Every once in a while, Feinstein shows herself as worthy.
        (re: filibusters)
        http://feinstein.senate.gov/05speeches/cr-judicial-nom0510.htm
2005/5/31-6/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37899 Activity:nil
5/31    Yearbook picture of boy voted "most whipped" features boy wearing
        leash.
        http://csua.org/u/c86
        Angry editorial (includes picture)
        http://csua.org/u/c87
        \_ did you mean to post the same URL twice?
        \_ Those same people probably have no problem seeing Jet Li wearing a
           leash held by Morgan Freeman.
        \_ That girlfriend looks like Jenna Bush.  Ah, it's all Dubya's fault!
        \_ "School officials will use stickers to cover the offending photo.
            They want the 240 students who already received their books to
            return them for alteration." -bwwwwaaaaaahahahha.
        \_ I wish I had a girlfriend in high school.
           \_ If she's underaged then it's not legal.
2005/5/29-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37884 Activity:low
5/29    Watch republican fuckwit stooge David Brooks explain how all of
        society's ills are the fault of "educated elites".
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/29/opinion/29brooks.html?hp
        \_ Well hey, what did you think?  Merit is bad!  Working hard towards
           success is bad!  -John
        \_ I agree with you that Brooks is a Republican stooge, but I think
           this article raises some interesting points.  For example, all of
           the credible contenders for the presidential nomination (Bush,
           Kerry, Dean) were from wealthy families.  He also makes a great
           point about education.  Public schools are one of the main
           enablers of social mobility these days, yet the opportunity to
           attend good schools is becoming harder for the poor.  Finally,
           I think the best example of educated elites maintaining the
           status quo is the mainstream media's cowardice and inability to
           do any real reporting on the horrible things going on in this
           administration.  -emin
           \_ Edwards wasn't credible? He ended up doing better than Dean.
2005/5/27-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37852 Activity:nil
5/26    Kerry finally signs on (Frenchy inks 180)
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411443/posts
        \_ And Bush never did sign his 180. I wonder why not.
2005/5/25-31 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37837 Activity:nil
5/25    Does anybody in CA have experience with a wrongful termination
        suit?  Somebody I know who was working with a bank for 26 years
        was sort of fired on the spot and even though this is an "at will"
        work state, it seems like she has a claim.  She has won a lot
        of awards but was fired after making a mistake but it seems like
        people are entited to a few mistakes and they cant be used as an
        excuse to fire somebody a single manager doesnt like.  Thanks.
        \_ Go seek an attorney.
        \_ Not answering your question, but:
           Doesn't "at will" mean you that you can quit for any reason, just
           like you can be fired for any reason (for firing, as long as it
           isn't related to race/gender/age/sexual orientation as long as you
           can prove it).
           E.g., you can be fired because you made a mistake, or because you
           refuse to remove a Kerry bumper sticker from your car, which you
           park on the company lot.
           \_ "At will" means you can get fired for legal reasons.  So it's
              ok to fire someone for sporting a Kerry bumper sticker but not
              ok for refusing to suck your dick.
              \_ At will also means that there doesn't have to be a reason.
                 The bar is really high in establishing grounds for a wrongful
                 termination suit.
        \_ it is pretty unlikely she has a claim unless she thinks she was
           fired for whistleblowing or because she was black or whatever.  -tom
            \_ (fuck off)
           \- I think there are probably different presumptions in the case
              of an employee of a quarter century standing [think "jury trial"
              and it will probably be expensive to respond to age discrim type
              claims]. I'm not sure "at will" entitles the employer to not be
              consistent ... if you fire one person for sneezing on the
              salad bar but you dont fire the 20 other people, that looks bad.
              Anyway, I'm just speculating. Labor law involves detail and not
              just broad principles.
        \_ If she is over 40, she is in a protected class and her chances
           of a win or settlement are much higher.
        \_ it is pretty unlikely she has a claim unless she thinks she was
           fired for whistleblowing or because she was black or whatever.  -tom
           \- dont you think the fact pattern would have included either of
              these elements had they been relevant? i think what the OP
              is really looking for is "what are the grounds of the rebuttable
              presumption of at will employment in CA" ... not these canards
              about dick sucking and whistleblowing. i have to say i found the
              kerry bumper sticker case pretty shocking ... or course that
              wasnt an USSC decision ...
              \_ that's amusing, getting lectured by the master of irrelevancy
                 for my answer not being relevant enough.  -tom
                 \- presumably you are trying to offer a relevant answer
                    rather than a random "interesting" factoid.
           \_ Ah!  You used the B word!
        \_ The short answer is that at-will agreements are a bunch of
           hooey (in CA). Seek a lawyer and thou shall see the light.
           \_ The short answer is that you don't have a case unless you have
              persuasive evidence.  Seek a lawyer and thou shalt see the light.
2005/5/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:37736 Activity:low
5/18    motd has gotten me interested in philosophy again. Mainly, I'm
        fascinated by arguments from people who have core beliefs (based
        on certain core principles, this is right and that is wrong) and
        people who have relative beliefs (you may be right from your
        perspective and I may be right from my perspective), and things
        of that nature. I'd like to know why people think certain ways,
        and how they debate, and how valid each perspective is. Is this
        philosophy? Or politics? And what's a good primer on this topic,
        preferably a URL? thx.
        \_ Read a book.
        \_ This is called ethics, or moral philosophy. Much of theology
           touches on this topic as well. Start here:
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
           \- Read Plato. Either that will generate an E_TOOSHORT or you
              will learn something.
        \_ Read about the uncertainty principle. Only if you can accept
           that the universe is non-deterministic can you even begin to
           discuss whether an action is right or wrong.
           \_ Reading Plato is never bad advice.  However you might want to
              start with something like The History of Western Philosophy
              (Bertrand Russell) and then zoom in.
              \_ Plato is good, but a brief intro to Greek history would go
                 far in providing context for Plato. And if Russell is too
                 much for you, Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder is a very
                 accessible Philosophy 101 book.
                 \- um i suppose if you want to find out what led up to
                    Socrates "problems" with the Athenian polity or to
                    fathom his portrayal by say F. Nietzsche in Twilight
                    of the Idols, some context would be helpful, but overall
                    I think you need less context than for say T. Hobbes
                    or I. Kant. Oh, and dont read the Symposium.
                    or I. Kant. Oh, and dont read the Symposium. Probably
                    best not to start with the Republic.
                 much for you, Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder is a very
                 accessible Philosophy 101 book.
2005/5/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:37645, category id '18005#5.11375' has no name! , ] UID:37645 Activity:nil
5/11    "Lawmaker Hopes to Open Churches to Political Speech"
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156264,00.html
        Conservatism #1!!!
2005/5/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37632 Activity:high
5/11    During the London Blitz, Churchill toured the damage everyday,
        even sometimes when bombs were falling. A small one engined
        Cessna flys near Washington and the cowards there all run and
        hide. What a bunch of sissies the Republicans have turned out
        to be.
        \_ Is our homeland at war such that we can try to shoot down the Cesna
           at will?  If yes, and those folks still run to hide, I'd call them
           cowards.  Otherwise, I'll call them irresponsible if they don't
           hide.
           \_ Was Churchill irresponsible during WWII?
              \_ Frequently.  That said, op is one of the more insightful
                 things I've seen posted about the current administration and
                 political climate.  It's not about whether you can shoot down
                 a plane, but about the general climate of FUD that seems to
                 have replaced certain ideals of courage and intestinal
                 fortitude.  Sounds corny?  Probably.  But I guess the motto
                 today is "eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into
                 jet engines."  -John
                 \_ Exception: Giuliani.
              \_ Was London not in a state of war during the London Blitz?
        \_ Kerry didn't hide?
        \_ Next time, why don't you take the place of someone
           leaving the building?
           \_ Send me to Washington to represent us, and I will.
        \_ you should have seen Corzine on the Senate floor.  He ran away
           like a woman.
                 \_ That made my day.  Jet engines...heh...    -mice
2005/5/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37631 Activity:low
5/11        ___                  ==
          /  |  \     Peace    //  \\
         /   |   \     and     \\  //
         |   ^   |   Support    \\//
         \  /|\  /     Our      //\\
          \/_|_\/    Troops!   //  \\
        \_ Is this contradictory?
           \_ Depends.
           \_ No.
           \_ Are you John Kerry?
           \_ For years the sign at SAC used to say "Peace is our
              Business."  In many cases the last people who want
              Profession."  In many cases the last people who want
              to fight are the people who train for it everyday.
                \_ The sign actually said "Peace is out Profession"
        \_ Peace is delusion. Propagated by those who still
           feel emotions.
2005/5/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37623 Activity:high
5/11    "The army sergeant threatened a prospect with arrest if he didn't
        report to a recruiting station," obviating the need for draft:
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/army.recruiting
        \_ ^"The^"A -- A single incident reported by CBS news (and not
        \_ ^"The^"An -- A single incident reported by CBS news (and not
           confirmed by anyone else) is somehow indicative of behavior of the
           entire organization?  You're an idiot.
           \_ http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou050510_mh_militaryrecruits.2602b7752.html
              and http://www.khou.com/images/0505/voicemail.wav for the
              actual voice mail.  But hey you can just attack the news
              organization and ignore reality if it makes you happier.
              Here's a hint, the army is suspending ALL recruiting in the face
              of this and other scandals (recently another recruiter was caught
              doing things like driving protential recruits to their dealer's
              house to get drugs, I don't have a good link to the story.)
           \_ The army is standing down recruiting efforts to investigate.
              Would they do that if they didn't have a suspicion that it
              might be indicative?  You're an idiot.
              \_ The article doesn't say that.  Can you even read?  It says
                 they are "expected to" not that they have done it.
                 Investigating claims is appropriate.  Asserting that the
                 claims are true and represent a general population is not.
                 \_ Can you? "The Army said it is investigating the
                    allegations", "A senior Army officer said
                    Wednesday that the "stand-down" is being ordered
                    not only because of possible misconduct but
                    also because the service has had a difficult
                    time attracting volunteers. The Army wants to
                    assess the stress facing recruiters."
        \_ Forgive my ignorance.  When was the last time a draft was in place?
           Thx.  -- immigrant
           \_ 1973.  Here is a detailed background on the draft:
              http://www.sss.gov/FSbackgr.htm  And other info can be found
              from the links here:
              http://www.sss.gov/Fast%20Facts%20Table.htm
           \_ Vietnam
           \_ According to Kerry supporters, the draft was going to come back
              this January if Bush got reelected.  Oops.
              \_ With recruitment numbers down and tours continually extended
                 do you think it's more likely that we'll 1) withdraw or 2)
                 start a draft?
                 \_ how about 3) we offer incentives to:  keep existing
                    soldiers in place, re-deploy from Europe, hire more
                    recruiters, extend deployments, and worry about a draft
                    only when the shit hits the fan?
                    \_ You haven't been paying attention.  Heard of stop-loss?
                       Military folk are already pissed about being redeployed
                       over and over again.  Hiring more recruiters doesn't
                       help when people simply aren't signing.  We're in a
                       corner.  Either we declare victory and pull out, or
                       we get a draft.
                       \_ Actually I have been paying attention.  Everything
                          I wrote is what Dubya has been doing.  My time frame
                          only extends to the end of his term, though.
                          Are you saying that there is a > 80% chance we will
                          withdraw or draft before the end of his term?
                          I do agree that in the 5-20 year time frame, we will
                          either withdraw, draft, or make joining the Army more
                          palatable.
                 \_ You forgot 4) OUTSOURCE our troops.
                    \_ which is good, cuz those private army are not subject
                        to any rules and regulation. Some of the Chinese
                        vet I've talked to said that when they capture
                        mercenaries, they would just kill them, period.
                        I start to understand why they did that.  and FYI,
                        These vets are Nationalist troops operated in South
                        East Asia in the 1950s.
                 \_ How about 5) create an army of illegal immigrants (they're
                    not subject to U.S. laws), and promise citizenship if they
                    serve well in Iraq. Or, ship inmates from over-crowded
                    California prison or Guantanamo Bay to Iraq & chain them
                    together to do dirty and profitable work that Halliburton
                    is doing. -super troller
                    \_ We already do 5.
                    \_ "An army of foreigners not subject to US law" sounds
                       like a CIA task.
              \_ Which Kerry supporters?
                 \_ No actual Kerry supporters said this. Some people said
                    the draft could be back by June. More historical
                    revisionism from the sheeples.
                    \_ Max Cleland and Howard Dean, aka "some Kerry
                       surrogates".  http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6027815
                       \_ No where in this article does it mention Jan 2005.
                          You are full of crap.
                          \_ Ah.  So you agree that Kerry supporters claimed
                             that Bush will reinstitute the draft, and your
                             only disagreement is over the time frame used by
                             the Kerry people.  OK.
                             \_ Yes. And I think Bush will re-instate the
                                draft in the next 18 months. Tops. -Vet
                                \_ We'll see in 18 months.  That's the great
                                   thing with concrete predictions about the
                                   future -- they can eventually be verified or
                                   discredited.
                 \_ The dozens of cars I've seen around Berkeley with bumper
                    stickers that say "Bush '04 / Draft '05"?
                    \_ Last I checked, it's still 2005.
              \_ "We Democrats have successfully stopped Bush from reinstating
                 the draft.  Once again we Democrats have done good for the
                 American people."
                 \_ Where is this quote from?
                    \_ Someone's ass, apparently. -- ulysses
2005/5/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:37542 Activity:low
5/5     This has got to make social conservatives happy:
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/05/cheerleaders.law.reut
        \_ Screwing around with football related traditions in Texas does not
           strike me as wise for a conservative Texas politician.  I hope
           it bites them in the ass.
2005/4/20-22 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37279 Activity:moderate
4/20    Early universe was a liquid:
        http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050418/full/050418-5.html
           \_ Ugly bags of mostly water.
              \_ There's a Star Trek nerd loose on the motd!
                 \_ Red alert!
                    \_ Shields up.
                       \_ Set phasers to pun.
                    \_ Are you sure?  It does mean changing the bulb.
        \_ Are you suggesting that we all descended from LIQUID?!
           Blashphemer.
        \_ The absentee ballot system in the States is pretty much just as
           bad.
           \_ Yeah. After I heard about absentee ballot problems in the last
              election, the first thing I thought of was "jeez, this is like a
              quark-gluon plasma!"  That's how bad it is!!!!
           Blasphemer.
           \_ Ugly bags of mostly water.
              \_ There's a Star Trek nerd loose on the motd!
        \_ [ comment moved to where it seems to make more sense ]
2005/4/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37169 Activity:nil
4/13    Support bipartisan Senate bill S.678!
        http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/4/13/164333/833
        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/13/172939/078
2005/4/8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:37115 Activity:high
4/7     Dear John, please try to take this as something that may give you
        insights. You remind me of a hamster I used to keep in my cage.
        Everyday it happily runs on the hamster wheel. It is oblivious to
        the world outside of his cage, and it doesn't care because it
        is well fed and its surrounding all well taken care of. Perhaps you
        have never lived in poverty and have never seen a lot of crap poor
        and uneducated people deal with in the world, hence you develop
        certain [rigid] point of view. I know you're a well educated guy in
        a middle/upper-middle family and life seems pretty easy going and
        all.  But if only you had experienced real econo/social related
        hardship in your lifetime, perhaps you'd feel differently. Perhaps
        you'd realize how unbalanced wealth, education, and power really
        are. You're like my hamster who doesn't see that human history is
        full of repeated power struggles and that once again, wealth and
        power are to this day continually concentrating in the hands of the
        few. Okay, perhaps you don't care. Why should you? You're well fed
        and happy and you're too busy running your hamster wheel. Now, go
        ahead, give me your best shot and flame me.        -John Troll
        \_ Is this the same John who lived in that shithole known as CZ?
           That doesn't really strike me as the mark of someone who has
           everything handed to him.
        \_ It's a Dear John Letter. Buh-duh Chah!
        \_ With all the raving asshole libertarians on the motd, why the hell
           would you single out John, who appears to be pretty moderate on most
           issues, and to at least have a sense of humor about his raving?
           Are you new to the motd?  A lot of people here clearly do not even
           believe in the existence of a social contract of any kind, and would
           be happy to see the poor die.  As near as I can tell John is not one
           of those.
           \_ The raving asshole libertarians don't sign their names.  -tom
           \_ Because attempts at well-reasoned responses are more threatening
              to the intellectually smug than raving asshole-ness.  Welcome
              to the motd, son.
        \_ Sorry, I'd love to, but I have to catch a plane to Thailand.  Feel
           free to drop me a mail if you'd like to have a nice debate.  (And
           FYI, we weren't very well-off when I was growing up, and I do try
           to travel around a bit, including to less affluent
           places, so I guess I'm aware of what 'hand-to-mouth' means.  I
           think I've made myself successful through effort (and a bit of
           luck, which I accept and appreciate.)  Now please do lay out how
           believing in accountability and efficiency in how my money is spent
           and wanting people to try and work hard and excel in life when they
           can means I want to feed the poor to each other?  -John
                \_ See, as opposed to raving-asshole, John is going to
                   Thailand, to dance away the night on some full-moon-lit
                   beach.  He's just an asshole that raves..! <3, maxmcc
2005/4/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:37057 Activity:low
4/3     Ahh, the culture of life.  18 year old gets 90 days after attacking
        his girlfriend and threatening her with a knife when she told him that
        she was voting for Kerry.
        http://www.news4jax.com/news/4333519/detail.html
        \_ http://tinyurl.com/5aomz
        \_ Kerry really drives people crazy.
        \_ Non sequitur.
           \_ You mean troll. A non sequitur would apply to an existing
              debate. Unless you deleted the rest of the post, that's not
              the case here.
2005/4/1 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37021 Activity:nil
4/1     Seriously, the last post on the Schiavo Circus:
        http://csua.org/u/bjt (St. Petersberg Times)
        \_ It can't be the last one.  I declared a 5 day discussion period
           before we can forget about it forever.
2005/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36918 Activity:nil
3/28    Looks like George Felos hails from the same spiritual realm as John
        Edwards (the VP candidate).  He channels souls in the courtroom as
        well:
        http://www.sptimes.com/News/052501/Floridian/The_spirit_and_the_la.shtml
2005/3/11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36656 Activity:nil
3/11    Kerry Loves the Mainstream Media......And has contempt for
        the American people.
        http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/350fnrnt.asp
2005/3/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36592 Activity:high
3/9     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/08/politics/main678902.shtml
        Hilary Clinton may run in 2008. WTF are the Democrats thinking? First
        they bring in the oh so boring Goring, then the uncharismatic Kerry,
        and now this? How lame can they be    -disillusioned, former democrat
        \_ in other news, her financier pleads guilty to massive
           fraud, and her finance director is indicted.
           Ex-Stan Lee Chief Peter Paul to Plead in Securities
           Case (demands Hillary to "take responsibility")
           http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1358025/posts
           Obviously this is part of the VRWC
           Obviously this is part of the VRWC -Disillusioned Freeper
        \_ Look, if you are a former democrat, we aren't really interested
           in your opinion. She *might* run. If you were a democrat, you
           *might* have something to say about it. But you don't, so shut
           up. I personally think she is a great candidate. -former independent
           up. I personally think she is a great candidate. It is listening
           to people like you that got us John Kerry. Howard Dean would
           have been the candidate if the Democrats had any sense. He either
           would have A) won outright or B) energized the party by adding
           millions of enthusiastic young people to it. Instead we got
           boring Kerry. -former independent
           \_ Dipshit, the party was energized.  Kerry got far more votes than
              Gore did, and raised more money than any candidate ever except
              GW in the same election.  Let's face it: Kerry didn't lose, Bush
              won.
              \_ Are you former democrat?
                 \_ I'm a former independent.  I joined so I could vote in the
                    2004 primary. I supported Dean until he dropped out, but
                    I genuinely liked Kerry, and was happy to support him for
                    the remainder of the race.
              \_ Droopy face didn't have a chance.  What we really need is a
                 character who isn't going to be owned by a weak accusation
                 like "flip flopper."  Kerry did not have the charisma nor
                 the strength to beat Bush and we are getting killed or it
                 now.  You need someone that people can like, like frat boy
                 Bush, to actually get some votes.  -mrauser
                 \_ Look, it is hard to beat an incumbent president.  Since
                    the Great Depression it has only happened three times;
                    once after Watergate, and twice during significant
                    recessions.  "We didn't beat the incumbent" is the
                    expected result.  We don't need to wring our hands
                    about what we did wrong; I do think we need to figure
                    out what the message will be in 2006/2008.  I wish
                    the Democrats would do a better job of not letting
                    Republicans frame the issues.  -tom
                    \_ Not to disagree with you, but
                       Ann Coulter framing the issues:
                       http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43219
                       \_ Ann "the best way to talk to a liberal is with
                          a baseball bat"  Coulter? Is that the kind of
                          framing you refer to???
                          \_ Coulter's spittle is not really what I'm referring
                             to.  It's more like things like "death tax" or
                             "welfare reform", where the Republicans have
                             managed to frame the debate in such a way that
                             the Democrats argue not over whether the
                             Republican ideas are fundamentally wrong, but
                             over how to implement the Republican ideas in a
                             different way.  -tom
                                       \- That is Grover Power.
                          \_ Are you ready?  Are you?  Here comes...
                             "Howard Dean - chairman of the party that supports
                             murder, adultery, lying about adultery, coveting
                             other people's money, stealing other people's
                             money, mass-producing human embryos for spare
                             parts like an automotive chop shop and banning
                             God - has called the Republican Party 'evil.'"
                             Feel the love.
                             \_ I got a granny who's never seen an online
                                forum that could troll better than this.
                      \_Say what you will about my Darlin' Anne, THIS is funny:
                        "Aspiring first lady Teresa Heinz claims the election
                         was stolen through the machinations of a vast
                         conspiracy involving Republican polling machine
                         manufacturers. We eagerly await a Michael Moore
                         documentary to flesh out the details."
                         \_ THIS is an old gag is what it is but whatever
                            floats your boat...
2005/3/7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:36564 Activity:high
3/7     Freedom of Speech is dying.
        http://csua.org/u/ba8
        \_ Just for the record, CU is run by total fuckheads.  Read up on
           their various football related scandals, and how the administration
           reacted.  I know someone on the faculty there, and the faculty
           are PISSED about how that was handled.  It's clear that the
           university has more respect for their rapist football team than
           they do for their nobel laureate physicists.  I'm not taking a side
           in this case, I'm just providing background on how this school is
           run.
        \_ Umm... so some crackpots are screaming to get someone fired for
           something they said... is that new?  I don't think he should get
           fired for his writing, he should be fired for getting tenure
           under false pretenses.
        \_ I don't see the Federal gov't involved, so what is the problem?
           \_ State Government cesorship is okay in your book?
              \_ You are misappropriating the term censorship.  He can say
                 whatever he wants ad nauseum, but that does not entitle
                 him to be a taxpayer subsidized fraud.
                 \_ A government official firing you because you said something
                    unpopular definitely qualifies as censorship. But I admit
                    in this case no one has been fired yet, there has just
                    been a lot of mau-mauing by the governor.
                    \_ I think you are mistaking unpopular w/ untrue. This
                       guy is going to get his ass kicked out of CU b/c he
                       have been going around making up stuff that is
                       completely bogus and he finally got called on it.
                       \_ "The WTC attacks are an example of the chickens
                          coming home to roost" is nothing more than an
                          unpopular opinion. Your belief that it is "false"
                          says a lot more about you than anything else.
                          \_ Ummm... he's refering to the guy's previous
                             articles, which are indeed, often full of
                             false information.  As it, it doesn't even
                             vaugely agree with the sources he sites.
                             This 9/11 crap just drew attention to it.
        \_ How is it dying?  A loudmouthed professor got scrutiny which turned
           up his past lies, plagiarism and exposed him as someone who assaults
           reporters.  The guy's a scumbag who got his job under false
           pretenses. -emarkp
        \_ His essay is hilarious. He actually ties 9/11 to Iraq.
2005/3/7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:36561 Activity:nil
3/7     http://csua.org/u/ba8
2005/3/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Finance/Investment] UID:36553 Activity:moderate
3/7     ING Direct U.S. pays 2.6% interest rate now. I looked up and ING in
        Canada pays 2.4%, ING in Australia pays over 5%, and ING in Spain
        pays 6%. That got me curious. I'm pretty sure this is all irrelevant
        unless I know what the inflation rate is, and how each currency
        exchanges relative to US dollar. Is there a site somewhere that can
        give me historical data on inflation and historical exchange rates
        all in one chart or one site? Thanks.
            \- Hello, For a bt of theoretical perspective, you may wish to look
               up "Covered/Uncovered Interest Rate Parity", "Real Interest
               Parity", "Purachsing Power Parity". There are lots of studies
               over how well these hold and deviate in the short and long runs.
               You can also look at the BigMac and Latte Indexes for the cases
               of involving the price of good [as opposed to interest rates,
               the price of money].
               \_ What happened to the oky,thx?
        \_ http://www.oanda.com/convert/fxhistory
           This is telling me that US dollar to Australian exchange rate was
           1.6 in 2003 to 1.3 in 2005. That, and the fact that they get a
           much better interest rate than us, makes me wonder why I'm keeping
           any money in US bank. I guess you can argue FDIC or some excuse.
            \- Hello, For a bt of theoretical perspective, you may wish to look
               up "Covered/Uncovered Interest Rate Parity", "Real Interest
               Parity", "Purachsing Power Parity". There are lots of studies
               over how well these hold and deviate in the short and long runs.
               You can also look at the BigMac and Latte Indexes for the cases
               of involving the price of good [as opposed to interest rates,
               the price of money].
               \_ What happened to the oky,thx?
                  \_ Hello, BTW, you cant blindly look at these kinds of
                     historical graphs or cross country comparisons. For
                     example, there may be some sudden discontinuitites
                     due to external events like say Regulation Q changes.
                     Especialyl for countries with more controlled mkts
                     you may need more info about that country, e.g. for
                     certain kinds of accounts, senior citizens in India
                     are given slightly higher interest rates.
                     \- BTW, people interested in cross-border issues
                        may want to read about the "Tobin Tax" debate
                        as well. ok tnx.
        \_ I thought ING's interest rate has more to do with how the central
           banks of the various countries are setting their interest rates.
           Inflation rate would influence the central banks' decisions
           but it's likely just one of many factors.  I don't know about
           other countries, but Australia's economy is just plain hot,
           mainly due to the China led commodities boom, so you get cool
           exchange rate appreciation plus nice interest yield.  But yes,
           historical charts on inflation and exchange rates would be
           nice.
        \_ I think the summary is that US economy is fucked and will continue
           to be fucked for a while and that keeping your money in US currency
           is just dumb dumb dumb. Yes I hate America.
           \_ No no no. We **know** you hate America. We asked you why.
        \_ Why is the Afghan to US exchange rate completely flat? Ditto with
           the Iraq Dinar to US dollar. What does this say, that Iraq/Afghan
           dollar are exactly the same as US dollar?
           http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?amt=1&from=USD&to=AFA
           http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?amt=1&from=USD&to=IQD
           \_ You mean like how the Chinese Yuan is pegged to the dollar
              along with the Argentine peso? Egads, it's a conspiracy!
           \_ Many currencies are pegged to the dollar.  -tom
              \_ Afghanistan and Iraq are like the 51st and 52nd States in
                 the U.S., of course the exchange rate is the same. DUHHHH.
   http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushiraqidinar2.htm -/
2005/2/28-3/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36466 Activity:kinda low
2/28    Making of a 9/11 Republican:
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/24/cstillwell.DTL
        \_ Was this supposed to be enlightening?  Just because she's a
           conservative, don't assume she can actually write.
           \_ Huh?  Just because you disagree with her, doesn't mean she
              can't write. -!op
        \_ "Having been indoctrinated in the postcolonialist, self-loathing
            school of multiculturalism, I thought America was the root of all
            evil in the world."
           I'm really not trying to make an ad hominem attack or wave a red
           herring, but I've read and heard similar statements made by white
           supremacists.
           \_ If this isn't a red herring, I'm really wondering why you
              posted it.
              \_ Good question. What I'm trying to say is that the expression
                 of former solidarity followed by an example of redemptive
                 eye-opening is often used to excuse a following diatribe
                 of vindictive railing against the school of thought once
                 held. In both cases, however, what's being demonstrated is
                 not a logical progression from one carefully thought out
                 position to another but a wild swing from one radically
                 deficient position to another predicated (mostly) on the
                 rancour generated by a philosophical falling out with the
                 former. In other words, from one extreme to the other still
                 makes you an extremist.
                 \_ You are right.  You often see this pattern.  However, you
                    haven't really demonstrated why such a wild swing must be
                    unreasonable, you just used 'negative words': 'wild swing,'
                    'radically deficient,' 'extremist,' etc.  You are
                    complaining about rhetoric using rhetorical means.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ It's not such a wild swing.  It _is_ a failure of logic.
                       To reject the existence of problems in society under the
                       duress of grief is as bad as rejecting grief under the
                       duress of principles.  In making such a switch, she is
                       as disgusting as her coworker who seemed completely
                       insensitive to the victims of the attacks.  Also, this
                       insensitivity is nothing more than her perception of the
                       guy.  If she took the time to talk to him, she'd probably
                       find grief under the arrogance.
                    \_ It's clear to me that poster was NOT making the general
                       claim, which would be obviously wrong.  Of course there
                       are people who switch sides who remain rational
                       throughout. -someone else
                 \_ It also doesn't make her a decent writer.
                 \_ I liked how she talked about "small government"
                    conveniently neglecting to mention what's currently
                    happening -- Let's face it, when either party totally
                    controls government it goes to hell.
2005/2/25 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36416 Activity:high
2/25    Wired, how far you have fallen:
        http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/view.html?pg=5
        \_ What the fuck are you talking about?
           \_ Wired used to be techno-libertarian, this is written
              by a Euro Socialist.
              \_ Lessig is a Euro Socialist?  Wow.
        \_ Op-ed piece about tech stuff, mildly sensationalist, about
           something of import to geek types?  Sounds like Wired. -John
        \_ Once again the invisible hand of the "free" market gives us
           the finger.
           \_ OK, dude, very basic again for those of you who were asleep
              in Econ 100A&B:  collusion, government lobbying, anything like
              that is NOT the invisible hand, the free market, capitalism, or
              anything along those lines.  Thank you, you may now go back to
              sleep.  -John
              \_ in other words, there's no such thing as the free market,
                 thus we can stop relying on it to solve our problems. -tom
                 \_ Haha.  Let's play a game called 'spot the flaw.' -- ilyas
                    \_ w00t!
                    \_ How about "spot the twit." Hey, it's ilyas! I win!  -tom
                       \_ w00t!  You both get a "w00t!" for entertaining the
                          rest of us.  A grateful motd thanks you both.
              \_ This is how every implementation of capitalism has been.
                 \_ Yeah, this kind of sounds like the people who defend
                    communism.  But in a perfect world...
        \_ Whyis a regular op-ed column by one of the most respectable legal
           scholars on constitutional and cyberspace law a problem? -dans
        \_ An article showing corporate corruption in government, applicable
           to tech stuff, this is inappropriate/wrong for what reason?
        \_ I agree with the article. The government can do something
           better than private enterprises because they are
           fundamentally different. Private enterprises are there to
           make money, governments are there to serve. If a company
           can suck $100 out of you, they will not sell for $99.
           Governments on the other hand just need to cover their cost.
                \_ At the same time, governments are technically not
                   looking for max profit, so they have less of a incentive
                   to minimize cost and maximize efficiency.  The company
                   may want to sell it for $100, but could sell it for $80
                   and a competitor is selling for $85 so it sells it for
                   $80.  The author has a point that if the government CAN
                   do it cheaper/better and it is for a service/product that
                   makes sense, it should.  Making laws prohibiting it from
                   doing that just because it eats into the bottom line of
                   some corporation is not a good enough justification for
                   not doing it.
        \_ Thanks for the link, it is somewhat interesting. While we're on
           this topic, may I suggest an excellent documentary that talks
           about similar topics? "The Corporation" is an extraordinary film
           about the creation of the American corporation, its legal
           organizational model, its global economic dominance, and its
           incredible ambition to influence every aspect of culture in its
           unrelenting pursuit of profit. You can rent it in Blockbuster,
           Netflix, or buy it on http://Amazon.com
           \_ you can get a preview here:
       http://www.mininova.org/get/4719/The.Corporation.DVDRip.XVID.avi.torrent
2005/2/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36391 Activity:nil
2/23    I love America!
        http://csua.org/u/b5x
        \_ John Ashcroft would love to talk to the PPP CEO. C'mon, it's
           NYC, anything liberal and evil's possible. They will never sell
           these things in holy places, like ummm, Texas.
        \_ "If the boys had used the card, they would have ended up on a Web
           site rife with the rawest closeup photos and videos of sex acts,
           including intercourse and fetishes."  OH MY GOD CALL A CHILD
           PSYCHOLOGIST, THEY'LL BE SCARRED FOR LIFE AND JOIN A GAY AL QAEDA
           SUPPORT GROUP!  Jesus H. Christ.  "Rife".  -John
2005/2/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36367 Activity:high 66%like:36017
2/22    What is your career?
        \_ Manager
        \_ Software Engineer: .....
        \_ Design Verification Engineer
        \_ SysAdmin .
        \_ Teacher .
        \_ Consultant ..
           \_ that's not a career. you have to say what you consult on.
              \_ Actually, I agree.  Maybe the original poster should delete
                 the Consultant line, and I'll move my dot somewhere else.
              \_ Don't be dense.  I get hired as Victor-Nettoyeur by
                 companies with annoying problems that they can't or don't
                 want to deal with by themselves, and which can't be
                 classified as purely "engineering" or "management" or
                 "astronaut" or whatever, even though it's usually something
                 to do with IT security.  If it makes you happy I'll change
                 it to "Professionally adaptible tech whore".  -John
                 \_ Well, "IT security consultant" would be a career I guess
                    but "consultant" says nothing. There are all kinds of
                    consultants even outside tech.
        \_ Professionally adaptible tech whore .
        \_ White male oppressor .
        \_ Student .
        \_ I'm a graduate student who takes YOUR tax money to advance my own
           education while spending ~15hr/wk reading and writing motd. What
           category do I fall into?
                \_ I'd say the Not Funny category.
                \_ It can't be the !psb category
           \_ Might it be our favorite government funded "libertarian"?
              -meyers
             \_ And if you try to do something about it, your government
                will punish you!
             \_ your tax dollar (NSF, grant, DARPA, etc) soon to be gone:
                http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/02/21/bush.science.ap
                DAMN IT! Maybe We need to get real jobs soon.    -grad student
                \_ Bad troll.  If you're just interested in number one,
                   our present totally broken visa system is in your best
                   interest, since it cuts down on competition from talented
                   foreign students. Bush's moronic, politically driven
                   science policy is bad for the nation, but it really
                   doesn't hurt you as a grad student.
                   \_ Actually, the NY Times last week printed an editorial
                      saying that the visa system for international students
                      and scientists has recently been greatly streamlined.
                      http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/16/opinion/16wed3.html
                      \_ Whatever. I'll believe it when I see it.  I work in
                         a lab where about half of the scientists are non-U.S.
                         citizens, and dealing with the U.S. visa system
                         continues to be a total fucking nightmare.
                      \- The Economist says the opposite.
                         \_ Assuming you're talking about the article
                            "On the turning away", you need to re-read the
                            article.  These two articles are talking in
                            different time frames. -jrleek
                   \_ Very true, thanks for pointing this out. By cutting down
                      savages and foreign competition, Manifest Destiny shall
                      be reborn. GWB is proclaiming a message of hope and
                      deliverance for White Christian America. God Bless GWB
                      and John Ashcroft.                     -conservative
                \_ Are you a citizen?  The military-industrial complex is in
                   dire need of software engineers, not as if you're probably
                   not already funded by it:
                   http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=541
                   The funniest part is that this is true.
                   \_ Yeah, my PC hippie grad student tenant, who is married
                      to the peace activist grad school drop-out hippie wife,
                      just took a job with a CIA funded corp because they were
                      the only ones willing to hire a linguist in his field
                      of expertise.
        \_ Scientist: ...
        \_ Slacker: .
        \_ Tax Payer:
        \_ Music Industry: .
        \_ Help Desk Specialist and Unix SysAdmin
        \_ Help Desk  pecialist and Unix SysAdmin
        \_ Our company is the leading provider of ircII scripts for
           Fortune 500 executives.
        \- Gigolo -ok, thnk
        \_ Househusband: .
2005/2/15 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36186 Activity:moderate
2/15    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147731,00.html
        Bush is going to cut education as promised. I bet this is going
        to help with the military recruitment, hence killing 2 birds
        with 1 stone. Bush is brilliant, simply brilliant   -conservative
        \_ You are about as conservative as Howard Dean.
           \_ RAAWWWWRRRRGGGHH!!
2005/2/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36158 Activity:moderate
2/12    Monkey Man for the Donkeys:
        http://tinyurl.com/4wj3j (news.yahoo.com)
        \_ Uh, right.  When this guy (http://www.bushorchimp.com is no longer
           president, you can start calling democrats "monkeys".  For now,
           it's probably a bad idea.
           \_ So turn about isn't fair play?
              \_ Fair play?  More like affirmative action for people whose
                 political opponents don't really look like chimps.  Find
                 your own jungle animal to use to make fun of Dean.
                 \_ I thought it was a reference to YAAARRGGGHHH!
                    \_ Apparently there is some similarity btwn the
                       the Steve "Monkey Man" Balmer "I love this
                       company" video and the Dean scream. This
                       is what I was refering to.
                       \_ I have a scream speech, v 2.0 by H. Dean
                          eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaarggggghhhh!!!!!
                          starts at around 41 minute mark
                          rtsp://video.c-span.org/mdrive/rwh031603.rm
                    \_ Being compared to a monkey because of one's behavior
                       is far more insulting than being compared to a monkey
                       because of one's looks.
                       \_ In what way does Dean resemble a monkey to you?
                       \_ I thought the Bush == Chimp was a reference
                          to his intelligence not his looks.
                          \_ Then you're obviously not very intelligent
                             yourself now are you?
2005/2/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36050 Activity:very high
2/3     Obama for Pres.
        \_ Obama lin Saden!
        \_ Obama for Pres... in 20 years.
        \_ Seriously guys, he only just got in the Senate.  Let him
           actually do something before you make him a saint.
           \_ Saint, schmaint. I just want a Pres.
        \_ I really don't know much about the guy, what makes him so
           popular?
           \_ Charismatic, young, liberal, good public speaker.  The
              overachieving son of an overachieving immigrant father.
              \_ And yet, somehow not Republican. What's not to love?
              \_ Not to mention true believer
                 \_ What does he believe in? Democracy? America?
                    \_ Spiderman!
           \_ I don't understand it either.  Although I'm proud to see
              fellow Mixed person get so much press, it seems
              underdeserved.  If he does something like craft a balanced
              budget, or start a successful initiative I would take
              more notice.
        \_ The first black president (if we ever elect one) will not be
           a Democrat.  -tom
           \_ To quote you, "you're an idiot."
           \_ He's not Black, he's Bi-racial, which means you could call
              him as much White as Black.  But electing even a Mixed
              person would be an achievement for America as long as he was
              qualified.
              \_ He was raised in Hawaii by his white mother and grandmother,
                 so I don't think he's "black" in any way that really matters.
                 But that's not the way people in the red states see it.  -tom
              \_ Don't you know the one-drop rule?
                 \_ My bad, thought we were in the 21st century.
              \_ The Democrats would never allow Bush to get a non-White
                 elected; I mean, just look at Gonzalez, right?
                 \_ That's because any non-white Republican is a traitor
                    to their race.  They even have special racial epithets
                    for them, like "Uncle Tom" or "House Nigger."
                    \_ It's funny, but these are the horrifying words
                       that black people give to Condoleeza Rice and
                       Colin Powell. Bush has so many 'token' minorities
                       in his cabinet that I think they outnumber white
                       folks.
                       \_ Not even close, fella:
                          http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html
                          Two blacks, two asians and 11 whites.
                          \_ This is the current cabinet excluding Powell.
                             I was exaggerating, but the point is the
                             same. If 1/3 of the cabinet is 'token'
                             minorities are they really tokens? I find
                             that notion in itself to be offensive.
                             \_ Aren't minorities overrepresented (given
                                population proportions) in the Bush
                                cabinet? -- ilyas
        \_ the next president will be Jeb Bush, not some lame ass Democrat
           who has no connection, no clout, nothing, like our dumb ass
           losers like Gore and Kerry.          -disillusioned Democrat
           \_ Man, I sure hope the Republicans can come up with someone
              better than Jeb.  I really think the whole elcet Jeb thing
              is just democrat whining anyway.  I sure do wish the dems
              could come up with a reasonable canidate though. Is it
              really THAT hard?  --republican
              \_ Funny.  My view of the republican noise about Hillary is
                 similar to your view of the Jeb fears.  I guess because the
                 hatred is so visceral on both sides. Just thinking about
                 Jeb raises my blood pressure, and my impression is that
                 a lot of republicans feel that way about Hillary.  I'm
                 actually planning to register republican just so I can vote
                 against Jeb in the primary.  That's how much I fucking
                 hate that guy.  Call me irrational, but when a political
                 leader comes out in favor of voter fraud, I consider that
                 to be simply un-American, and worth fighting against.
                 \_ I agree with you on the Hillary thing.  The dems would
                    have to be nuts to field Hillary.
        \_ Obama is a marxist.  In case you motd people who don't get out
           much haven't noticed, Communism is dead.
           Even worse, he is a muslim.
           \_ It is funny to me that I can't tell the difference between
              the trolls and the Real Bush Republicans anymore.
              \_ yea, make the most powerful man in the world a marxist
                 muslim.  The left's wet dream.
                 \_ Troll harder, young master.
                    \_ trite idiocy is not going to change his politics
                       or heritage.
           \_ Link?
2005/2/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36041 Activity:nil
2/2     http://www.saveourlicense.com
        Ballot petitions due Feb 11, 2005
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35838 Activity:high
1/21    The 50 Most Loathsome People Of 2004
        Nice to see Bush and Kerry both made the list!
        <DEAD>www.buffalobeast.com/66/50mostLoathsome2004.htm<DEAD>
        \_ Along with Jenna Jameson and You.
        \_ Bizzarely so far left that sometimes he actually end up on the
           right.
        \_ Was this written by aaron?
2005/1/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35821 Activity:nil
1/20    From CNN: "Democratic Sen. John Kerry, who lost to Bush in the
        November election, stood a few feet behind the president as he
        was sworn in." Is this just because Kerry was the challenger in the
        election, and if so is this the tradition (to have the losing
        challenger stand nearby, during inauguration)?
        \_ I don't know, but technically there were also other losing
           challengers.
2005/1/19 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35789 Activity:insanely high
1/19    The poll, conducted Saturday through Monday, found that the percentage
        of Americans who believed the situation in Iraq was "worth going to war
        over" had sunk to a new low of 39%. When the same question was asked in
        a similar poll in October, 44% said it had been worth going to war.
        http://csua.org/u/arb (L.A. Times via Yahoo! News)

        20/20 interview last week:
        Walters:  "But was it worth it if there were no weapons of mass
        destruction? Now that we know that that was wrong? Was it worth it?"
        Bush:  "Oh, absolutely." -troll #1
        \_ Why do Americans hate America?
        \_ These polls are completely useless. What's the point on
           continually posting poll results anyway? You know they're bogus
           and you can't rely on them.
           \_ Yeah, polling results are all hills and valleys anyway.
              Though, I think it was fully intentional that support for the
              war peaked at election time, when the only meaningful poll was
              taken.  Who cares about poll results at all now?
              \_ Everyone who wants to live in a democracy cares what
                 public opinion is. You can bet that Congress pays
                 attention to the polling numbers, especially for their
                 district.
                 \_ No, you moron, the point isn't what the public opinion is,
                    it's whether polls REFLECT public opinion. Polls
                    obviously do NOT reflect public opinion. If they did
                    then John Kerry would be President and we would've
                    never been in Iraq. Your polls are useless because
                    the error factor is too large. HOW you poll and
                    WHO you poll and AT WHAT TIME you poll obviously
                    affect the outcome. You can't say Poll A reflect
                    public opinion vs. Poll B because neither of them
                    do. Also, Congress isn't worried about general
                    public opinion. Congress isn't elected by the
                    general public. They're worried about special
                    interest and their constituency.
                    \_ well, the Zogby Poll around election time didn't
                       seem pretty accurate.
                       It was certainly difficult to tell between Zogby,
                       Gallup, and others, whose was accurate, and that
                       point is granted.
                       point is granted. -troll #1
                       \_ I think a poll showing 39% support is pretty
                          definitive, even if the exact number isn't quite
                          right.  It's when things are within a couple of
                          percentage points (like the popular vote in the
                          2004 general) that things get squirelly.
                    \_ I think this argument is self-refuting. Show me
                       the polls that predicted a large Kerry victory.
                       \_ Zogby:  Kerry 311 EV, Dubya 213 EV
                                  Too close to call:  NV (5), CO (9)
                          -troll #1
                          \_ Zogby has now blown two elections in a row.
                             Something tells me he won't be doing polling
                             for Reuters in 2008.
                             \_ Zogby was the closest pollster to accurately
                                predicting the popular vote.
                                \_ So if they just didn't publish the
                                   electoral vote prediction, they'd actually
                                   be fine.  However, ...
                                   -troll #1
                          \_ Bush 48%, Kerry 47%
                             http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews922.html
                             Did you just make up this prediction to
                             try and make yourself look good???
                             \_ I believe Zogby made both electoral vote
                                and popular vote predictions.  And no, I
                                did not just "make up" those numbers to look
                                good.  Duh. -troll #1
                                \_ The individual state polls are notoriously
                                   uneven.  I wonder if anyone learned a
                                   lesson about relying on them to make
                                   electoral vote predictions.
                                \_ The point is that Zogby did not predict a
                                   large Kerry victory, in spite of your blov-
                                   ination to the contrary. Zogby was the most
                                   accurate pollster in 2000. And polls
                                   obviously do mostly represent public opinion
                                   in spite of your statement to the contrary.
                                   In short, everything you stated was 100%
                                   incorrect. Furthermore, you completely
                                   ignored the last sentence of the comment
                                   you were replying to, causing you to
                                   just repeat what I said.
                                   \_ (Nice!  You just purged your
                                      "URL then.  I don't believe you."!)
                                      google "zogby 311 213".
                                      There's even a dailykos log for you.
                                      The sentence I was replying to was
                                      "Show me the polls that predicted a
                                      large Kerry victory".
                                      My other reply was to "Did you
                                      just make this up ...?"
                                      I believe you are confused. -troll #1
                                      \_ I said "especially for their
                                         district." You said "their
                                         constituency" Those mean the
                                         same things, at least in the
                                         English language. And 48/47
                                         is not a large margin of
                                         victory, no matter how hard
                                         you try to spin it. Why do
                                         you even bother to read polls
                                         if you think they are all
                                         worthless? I believe you
                                         are an querulous ass.
                                         \_ I'm not "their constituency" guy.
                                            I have now marked all my posts with
                                            signage "-troll #1".
                                            See where I say the bit about
                                            Zogby, if they just didn't
                                            publish the electoral vote
                                            prediction, they'd be fine?
                                            -troll #1
                                            \_ So you are defending a guy
                                               don't even agree with? Fine,
                                               you are just querulous then.
                                               \_ I didn't even bother
                                                  reading what that guy
                                                  said.
                                                  Someone said, "Show me the
                                                  polls that predicted a large
                                                  Kerry victory."
                                                  So I did.
                                                  And then someone asked
                                                  if I made that up, and
                                                  I said no. -troll #1
                                                  \_ So show me the polls that
                                                     predicted a large Kerry
                                                     popular vote victory.
                                                     \_ There is no such
                                                        reputable poll.
                                                        -troll #1
                 \_ This is a freedom Republic, not a euro democracy.
                    \_ but the democratic underground is fighting back
2005/1/15-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35731 Activity:low
1/15    Question for you registered Republicans.  I've been a registered
        Democrat now for a couple of years, and I've given money to the
        Democrats consistently throughout this presidential campaign.  Now
        they're deciding on a national chairman for the party, and I get
        all kinds of mail asking for money, and not a *single*
        mention of the chairmanship.  They clearly have no interest whatsoever
        in what I, as a member of the party, think.  Is this the same in the
        GOP?  Do they care what average members think as far as the direction
        of the party goes?
        \_ Think about it.  Big political parties (in almost any country)
           provide an enormous amount of patronage, jobs, means for lobbying,
           and ways to climb the political (career) ladder.  They are
           businesses the same way a lot of nonprofits and advocacy groups
           don't really want to see the topic of their activism (such as the
           homeless problem, environmental issues, whatever) go away.  They
           are self-perpetuating organizations, in many of the same ways as
           large corporations.  They attempt to appeal to voters as customers,
           viz. as sources of votes and cash-this is done via focus groups and
           trend analysis.  I seriously doubt whether a campaign strategist
           beyond the local level gives a whit what you, the lone party
           foot soldier, think.  -John
           \_ I understand that.  That doesn't mean it isn't bullshit, and that
              doesn't mean it's equally bad in both parties.  I would also
              argue that as the party out of power, the Democrats have a
              stronger interest in listening to new voices and bringing
              in new constituencies.
              \_ That's what any intelligent person with the benefit of a Cal
                 education would recommend, isn't it?  Nonetheless, your
                 description of the "gimme!" note you received doesn't seem
                 to indicate much inclination to do so.  -John
              \_ Well, how about getting off of your ass and actually getting
                 involved in your party's process? Nobody's going to give
                 you a voice unless you are willing to participate. That either
                 means giving up a lot of dough or a lot of time, which
                 equates to the same thing.
        \_ I have been asked, via email, to participate in a survey on the
           parties future. I gave $2k to the Kerry campaign though.
           \_ uh, you realize that Kerry forgot to spend a few millions
              of the campaign money, and found out a week after the
              election? His campaign is unorganized and run by lame
              bozos. I have no more faith in the Dem party. Go Nader!
              \_ I remember them saying it was incase of a protracted fight.
2005/1/12 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35677 Activity:nil
1/12    Where's the guy who predicted that the Republicans would
        get a do-over in Washington?
        http://csua.org/u/aoj
        \_  "A two-week delay is a small price to pay to restore confidence in
             this election," said Republican Rep. Mike Armstrong. "This is a
             historic time and we cannot afford to rush this process."
             Oh, the Irony.
            \_ Again, you confuse imagined disenfranchisement with dead
               people voting, mysteriously appearing ballots, and poll
               workers actively changing votes.
        \_  Thus ends democracy.
        \_  Uh, the Opinion Journal article ended like this:
            "[Gregoire] would do well to recall what happened in Minnesota
            after the 1962 election for governor there. Republican Elmer
            Anderson won a squeaker and was sworn in, but a recount of disputed
            ballots ground on. A hundred days into Mr. Anderson's term, a panel
            of three state judges ruled that Democrat Karl Rolvaag had actually
            won by 91 votes. To end the legal wrangling, Mr. Anderson dropped
            any appeals and calmly left office, allowing Mr. Rolvaag to move
            into the governor's mansion."
            http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110006139
            \_ I lost all respect for that rag after they repeated the
               Drudge sourced Kerry intern rumours.
2005/1/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35615 Activity:kinda low
1/8     With-It Sanford The free-market South Carolina governor.
        http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200406280927.asp
        \_ Now why can't you republicans put guys like this up for national
           office instead of porkbarrelling weasels like Bush or his asshole
           brother?
           \_ Dang if I know, why can't the Dems come up with someone
              better than Hillary, Kerry, or Edwards?
              \_ *sigh*
           \_ because the party is full of RINOs
2005/1/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35581 Activity:nil
1/6     Inflation disinformation: http://csua.org/u/am2
        \_ Oh yeah, objective research from Gold Bullion dealers.
           C'mon, people, let's get facts from credible sources, eh?
                \_ Why don't you refute their claims instead of
                   the source.  Do you believe oil prices can jump
                   40% year over year and have no effect on everything
                   else, even though oil underpins every aspect of
                   our economy?
2005/1/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:35573, category id '18005#2.2175' has no name! , ] UID:35573 Activity:nil
1/6     Stewart wins, CNN cancels Crossfire
        http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050106-4509.html
        \_ No, I think we all win.
           \_ Eh.  It would have been better if they had just replaced the
              pundits with people who could actually think.
2005/1/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35571 Activity:very high
1/6     Someone please list possible neocons who post on motd. I'll start.
        Remember this is just a suspect list, and they're innocent till
        proven guilty:
        emarkp (believes the war has made the world safer, preemption, etc)
                jblack
                williamc
        \_ Nope, wrong. I'm not a neocon. I've already stated publicly that
           I was against the Iraqi war. I also have stated that I'm a
                 \_ some neocons, like that fujimoron, are against the war
           devout atheist, support universal healt-care, same-sex marriages,
           and abortion. I just don't like non-criticial self-rightous
                  \_ neocons are all secular and mostly atheist, unlike con.
           radicalism of the left. It's funny, but a reporter friend of mine
           (who is by no means a republican) stated that after having
           interviewed a number of people, she found that liberals are
           basically "stupid" because they spout off their dogma without
           checking facts. Having said that, my offer to help you be
           deported to Canada still stands -williamc
           \_ Right, and the Other Facilely Labelled Team *ALWAYS* does.
              Can you at least try for some objectivity here?
              \_ Well, I don't hear libertarians nor conservatives
                 whining when they lose. They don't threaten to
                 leave the country. OTOH, very conservative people
                 I know who belong to a Churcn and are devout
                 Christians DO put their money where their mouths
                 are and actually take sabbaticals to 3rd world countries
                 to spread their faith. I don't agree with their religion,
                 but I admire their faith. Unfortunately the same cannot
                 be said of the liberals. I find it somewhat fascinating
                 that someone like John Kerry can vote FOR the Iraq war
                 and then claim he's AGAINST it during his campaign
                 run. And not only that, he actually ALLLOWS the
                 right to paint him into a corner. The world is hardly
                 ever black-and-white. Both sides contain valid criticisms
                 of the other side. However, not practicing what you preach
                 makes you look very stupid. Let this be a lesson to you
                 liberals, what comes out of your mouth is considered,
                 weighed, and judged. If you want to be taken seriously
                 by the American public, speak seriously, think seriously,
                 and most important of all, practice what you preach.
                 Otherwise you will continue to be targets of ridicule.
                 -williamc
                 \_ I thought Kerry voted to authorize the use of force
                    in response to terrorism.  Since Iraq HAD little to
                    do with terrorism directed at us, how would that be
                    voting for an Iraq war? Granted, he said some stupid
                    stuff after the vote where he tried to have it both
                    ways.
                    \_ Uhm, no, he voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq.
                       You're getting his "spin" confused with the actual
                       vote. If you don't believe me you can go read
                       the resolution online and see what he voted for.
                       If he thought that the resolution stated otherwise
                       then shame on Kerry for not actually reading
                       the resolution before voting for it. Sorry, you
                       can't have it both ways. What you vote for is what
                       counts, not what you say after the vote.
                       \_ He voted to agree to allow the President to take
                          action in Iraq.  That's not the same as authorizing
                          the invasion.
                          \_ Wrong point.  Kerry voted to give Bush the
                             authority to go to war if he exhausted all
                             other options to disarm Iraq.  Bush didn't.
                             Specifically he didn't fulfill section 3b of
                             the resolution.  Nor has he performed any of
                             section 4.
           \_ So if I happen to get a job in Canada, will you pay my
              relocation costs even if I don't become a Canadian citizen
              and am not moving for political reasons?  This sounds like
              a potentially sweet deal.  How does one qualify for the
              Williamc Canadian Fellowship?
              \_ Nope, the conditions of the Alec Baldwin Fund are as follows:
              \_ Nope, the conditions of the James Baldwin Fund are as follows:
                 1) We pay you to relocate to Canada
                 2) You have to sign an affadavit that you will renounce
                    your American Citizenship and never return to the U.S.
                    or any of its territories.
                 3) You need give us documented proof that the U.S.
                    Government has received and accepted your renouncement
                    either in the form of an official document from the
                    INS or other State Dept. office.
                 4) You need to submit your cancelled American passport
                    to us.
                Failure to meet these terms will disqualify you.
                Thanks for playing. -williamc
           \_ Devout atheist?
           \_ Did *anyone* move to Canada, France, or some other paradise of
              neo-liberalism?
              \_ No.
        \_ I find it somewhat ironic that you're looking towards making a
           blacklist of people and refuse to sign your own post. Perhaps
           you should put up or shut up.
        \_ Being a neo-con is a crime?
        \_ Restored.  When someone can tell me what a neocon is, I'll let you
           know if I'm one.  -emarkp
           \_ As far as I know, the standard left-wing definition of
              neocon is just "evil."  So I guess the question is, are you
              evil?
           \_ well I don't care about politics but this is time for shameless
              self-promotion. You can find past posts and definitions here:
                 http://csua.com/?entry=12748
              Political posts go in endless & pointless circles so why not just
              read past posts and not create any more trash? thanks.
              \_ It was a rhetorical request.  The definition isn't exactly
                 settled.  The wiki lists:
                 - militant anticommunism: yep
                 - more social welfare spending: nope
                 - sympathy with a non-traditionalist agenda: nope
                 - being more inclined than other conservatives toward an
                   interventionist foreign policy and a unilateralism that is
                   sometimes at odds with traditional conceptions of diplomacy
                   and international law: yep
                 So what does that make me? -emarkp
                 \_ You are a conservative. What I would call a "rightist"
                    conservative, to be exact. This discriminates you from,
                    say, libertarian conservatives.
                    \_ Hmm.  What about if I add this?  I believe we should
                       drill in ANWR but also that we should put a huge
                       boatload of money into researching nuclear fusion for
                       power generation and hydrogen for power distribution.
                       And I bike to work.  -emarkp
        \_ People called me a neocon before.  Heh.  I love how the motd
           meaning of 'neocon' drifted from 'hawkish jew' to 'believes
           Iraq war was a good idea.'  I always thought neocons were people
           who wanted to drill for oil in Alaska. -- ilyas
           \_ I never saw "hawkish jew" and "neocon" is a set including some
              but not all of "believes Iraq war was a good idea". Neo = new
              and "con" is conservative. It's for people, like say David
              Horowitz, who were liberals (or radicals, in his case) and are
              now conservatives. I'd like to see where this "standard left wing
              definition" appears. I've only heard it from people who are not
              left in the least, like the poster above. -- ulysses
              \_ I am sorry, I don't know whose fault it is exactly,
                 but the 'neocon' label has been hijacked and misused to
                 such an extent, that it's really kind of laughable to use
                 this word seriously.  In my opinion. -- ilyas
                 \_ I respect your opinion and certainly the poster above
                    has provided a perfect example of misuse (or at least
                    erroneously broad use). I don't believe the term has been
                    as badly hijacked as that. The most common misuse I see is
                    right here by one or more posters who never sign their
                    names so who can say? -- ulysses
                    \_ Wiki suffers from some of the same problems as the motd
                       does.  There was a /. article on this very subject
                       recently. -- ilyas
                       recently.  People seem to use wiki as a 'mainstream
                       authoritative source' these days.  -- ilyas
        \_ I can categorically state that I am not now and never was a
           member of the Communist Party, er, I mean neocon.
        \_ Conservative = Small government, lower taxes mainly; family values
           Neocon = Everything that happened in Afghanistan, Iraq
        \_ See the wikipedia article,
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_%28United_States%29
        \_ http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html.
2005/1/5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35558 Activity:very high
1/5     Curious, does any of you have problem with Alberto Gonzales'
        nomination?  His memo on terrorism detainees sound a lot like
        what Hitler said before Germany invaded USSR.  Does average peons
        like us has any means to influence the outcome?
        \_ Yes. No.
        \_ No, yes.
        \_ Yes, Yes.
        \_ No, No, are we happy now? hahahahaha
           \_ I am afraid this is a zero-sum game.
        \_ I have questions to ask.  Will you, as attorney general,
           immolate 80 people including women and children because
           they happened to stockpile weapons?
           \_ The idea of Janet Reno carrying a flamethrower is sexy.
           Will you, as attorney general, order
           a SWAT team to steal at gunpoint a child who escaped
           from a Communist totalitarian state, and whose mother
           died bringing him here?
           \_ Wow, you really bought into Cuban exile sob story, didn't you?
              \_ Zaire, Angola, Algeria, Nicaragua, Soviets and Venezuala...
              \_ Zaire,Angola,Algeria,Nicaragua,Soviets,Venezuala & Cuba...
                 put that in your engine and search it!  Yea, an actual
                 understanding of Cuba's geopolitics has made me a real
                 sucker.
           Will you , as attorney general, distract the nation's
           law enforcement for political gain with overwrought
           statements about anti-government militias, while there
           is a Islamic storm on the horizon?
           \_ That's right, you want the FBI (domestic) to stop focusing
              their efforts domestically and instead arrest people outside US.
           \_ Ok, so you hate Janet Reno.  So who was the last non-evil AG?
              If you say Ashcroft, you are beneath contempt.
           \_ Gonzales: As long as you allow me to approve the use of torture
              on Enemy Combatants and hold them as long as I like, I promise
              not to do any of the above.
              \_ yea... thank god Reno did not put underwear on the Branch
                 Davidian's or Elian's head!!!
                 \_ Or imprison them indefinitely without counsel. Or attack
                    them with dogs.  Or electrocute them. Or whatever else it
                    turns out has happened at Gitmo.
                    \_ barking dogs and having your writ of habeus corpus
                       denied by a federal judge... oh the humanity!
           \_ And I have one question:  Why do you hate America?
2004/12/30-2005/1/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, ERROR, uid:35498, category id '18005#18.2976' has no name! , ] UID:35498 Activity:high
12/30   http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3518560
        America less and less meritocratic.  Social mobility declining.
        \_ In the forseeable future the Senate, Congress, and the Presidency
           will be controlled by an elite few whose wealth and power will
           slowly subvert the democracy until one day there will be a
           crisis of sorts  requiring the invocation of dictatorial powers.
           This will lead finally to the formal creation of Imperial
           America, and through its ruling elite it will subvert all
           nations as either subservient allies or will brutally
           controlled through the military. We will have a complete
           professional merchant army, and we will employ the armies
           of other nations as merchant armies also. Then we will
           have established the Pax Americana on Earth, before we
           start exploiting other planets. The Pax Americana will
           result in an eventual stagnation of Earth, until the
           succession of the Imperial Presidency becomes unstable
           and aliens from other worlds begin to incur on the outskirts
           of the multiplanetary empire.
           \_ You obviously have a poor sense of U.S. history when
              back then senate seats were bought and even fewer people
              controlled all the money. Who bailed the USG out in 1895,1907?
        \_ Welcome to the ownership society.
        \_ And to think the motd questioned my support for John "son of a
           meeeel worker" Edwards
           \_ Could you please elaborate on your point?  Are you saying we
              should have supported Edwards in the primary out of some sort
              of class loyalty even if we thought he was an inferior candidate
              on the basis of his position on the issues and his (lack of)
              experience?  Would you have voted for Dick Cheney for the same
              reason?  I'm picking on you because I loathe Edwards.
        \_ no duh, the wealthy ones inherit via land or business monopoly
           while keeping the lower class down. Take my landlord for
           example. His dad (now 60) owned 17 super-mega apartment
           complexes in Westwood, all within 2 miles of UCLA, and
           quite a few properties and land outside as well. His dad
           just recently retired and now he inherits 8 apartments.
           And when he retires, he will hand his properties to his
           children, so on so forth. Basically the rich people have
           made it and don't have to do much to maintain what they
           have while the poor will always get screwed. That is the
           basis of capitalism. Fuck everyone else, it's every man
           for himself.
           \_ Which would be fine if the field had started level, but it's
              a rock-throwing contest, and they were born on top of all of
              the rocks.
           \_ You are pathetic.  Here you have a man who spent his
              entire life accumulating wealth.  You act as a jealous little
              worm who wants to impose your version social justice via
              the government at the point of a gun.  Moreover, how sad that
              your definition of success is how much money or power one has;
              though I suppose for leftist atheists in the end thats all
              there really is.
              \_ I'm not the above poster, and I'm no socialist, but when it
                 comes to slumlords, I'm in favor of the death penalty
                 administered by individuals outside of the government.  I
                 don't give a shit about whether it makes a better society or
                 not.  I have a list of landlords that have fucked me over, and
                 if civil soceity starts to break down enough that risks become
                 tolerable, they're all dead men.  Fuck the landlords.
                 \_ You talk big, but I bet you wouldn't be able to kill a man
                    when the time came. -- ilyas
                    \_ Ilya, you're challenging some random twerp on the motd
                       to drop trou on whether they can kill or not.  And yet
                       they say irony is dead Post-9/11.
                       \_ I am fined one credit for the violation of the motd
                          morality statute.  *boggle*  People who talk about
                          killing and violence, like our friend aaron, are
                          a long standing pet peeve of mine. -- ilyas
                          \_ Ah, Ilya, you must learn that these are simple
                             farmers, the clay of the new West.  You know.
                             Morons.
                             \_ What?  MorMons?
                          \_ To paraphrase Leon Trotsky once again, "Every
                             man is allowed to be stupid on occasion, but
                             Comrade Ilyas abuses the privilege."
           \_ Studies have shown that there is great class mobility in
              the USA. Within about 3 generations great wealth is lost
              and great wealth can be gained. As an example, I know a very
              wealthy widow with several kids. When she dies she will
              split the fortune among them. None of them are doing well
              at all (in spite of 1 or 2 went to Cal) and need her just to
              get by. I am sure they won't grow the fortune. Then they
              will split their share amongst their kids and her
              accumulated wealth will become merely middle class. It is
              common for rich kids to blow their entire inheritance.
              Another example is someone I know who inherited $200K and used
              that as an opportunity to just not work until it was gone.
              Some kids take a fortune and grow it (Rockefeller), of
              course, but some buy a $500K boat and sail the Caribbean
              getting drunk and laid until they are bankrupt (another person
              I met).
              \- The Economist and others have repeatedly ack-ed social
                 mobility is higher in the US than much of Western Europe
                 (the chief criticize). The point of this article is, "this
                 is now changing for the worse." e.g. repeal of inheritance
                 tax.
                 \_ Cf. David Brin's comments on such:
                    http://xent.com/FoRK-archive/oct00/0281.html
                    \_ hmm, this post is really quite stupid, which is
                       surprising because brin's political writings on
                       his website are interesting.
                       (e.g. http://www.davidbrin.com/realculturewar1.html
                    \_ Two questions:
                       1: What is this thing with science fiction authors
                       thinking they have something to say politically?
                       2: Why do we bother listening?  -tom
                       \_ tom, this is one of the stupidest things I've seen
                          you say, and that is saying something.
                       \_ For the same reason we listen to you, tom: on the
                          off chance that something interesting will escape
                          from your frothing drivel.
                          \_ thank you, anonymous coward.  -tom
                             \_ You're welcome, alleged tom.
              \_ Did you even read the article in question? The point is
                 that there used to be quite a bit of social mobility in
                 the US and that is less and less true with every passing
                 year. Things like free or extremely cheap secondary education
                 are gone, making it very hard for the poor to move up anymore.
2004/12/30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:35495 Activity:high
12/30   And a Slate article on Sontag. Hitchens wrote it so it's safe for
        liberals and conservatives alike.
        http://www.slate.com/id/2111506/12/30
        \_ Sure, it slandered cancer patients.
        \_ A surprisingly touching eulogy from the man who described Mother
           Teresa as a twisted Albanian dwarf and Gandhi as a Hindu
           fundamentalist. [Edited to reflect psb's comment.]
           \_ Like I said. Hitchens has something for everybody.
           \-Hindi = language. Hindu = religion. Hine = Cognac.
             \_ It looks like the above was a typo, but accroding to this
                http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hindi
                hindi: adj : of or relating to or supporting Hinduism
                There is another meaning of the word "hindi" in English
                besides the language.
                   \-hitchens is a pretty good essayist and debater evaluated
                     in terms of form. content is sometimes suspect. e.g.
                     the johnson quote is nice. the t.s. eliot reference
                     is nice. his description of CHIRAC in terms of the
                     character from L'Education Sentimental [someone who
                     would gladly pay for the pleasure of selling his own
                     mother] was also great. ok tnx.
2004/12/29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35465 Activity:high
12/28   http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/28/academic.freedom.ap/index.html
        Conservatism, it is not only a trend, it is the future.
        \_ Make sure you read all the way to the end so you can see David
           Horowitz calling liberal professors "sissies".
        \_ "To many professors, there's a new and deeply troubling aspect
           to this latest chapter in the debate over academic freedom:
           students trying to dictate what they don't want to be taught."
           That's just beautiful... simply marvelous.  The liberal navelgazing.
           \_ My God, it's full of lint!
           \_ There are two institutions that try to protect and grow democracy
              without actually practicing it themselves: academia and the
              military. There are good reasons for this.
              \_ Yes, one is to indoctrinate the young with the propaganda
                 required by the state, the other is offer security to the
                 state. The former provides the cadre of youth to feed into
                 the latter.
              \_ I'm calling bullshit on this.  Academia doesn't "protect and
                 grow democracy".
                 \_ The more educated the populace, the more effective
                    democracy is.
                    \_ Wow, one unfounded assertion backing up another.  Sorry,
                       education is not always an improvement.  Many highly
                       educated people don't have much common sense.
                       \_ Nor did they have such before they became educated.
                          With education, however, there is the slightest
                          chance of improving understand and critical analysis;
                          without education, there is no such chance. As for
                          unfounded assertions, this is the motd, not usenet.
                          Expect less, and be disappointed less.
        \_ The lawsuit is something I agree w/. Why should an eng. student
           (not sure these people were eng.) have to read some book about
           the Koran? Total waste of time. If you are interested, then you
           should learn about it on your own a la psb. If not, the school
           should let you get on with your life (ie doing homework and
           playing counter-strike).
           \_ If you want field-specific education, consider vocational
              training.  A University-level education is supposed to expose
              your young mind to a variety of topics and opinions so that you
              will have more experience of the world around you.  Its success
              or failure, however, range wildly.
              \_ That's what the diverse student body is for, not one of
                 the core class requirements. The core class requirements
                 are supposed to teach you basic universal cognitive skills
                 so that when you go interview you know how to speak in
                 a coherent manner. Reading the Quran should be relegated
                 to things like Eastern Culture Studies or Theology.
                 If we make people read the Quran, why don't we make them
                 read the Bible then, or the Book of Mormon, or recite
                 Koans?
              \_ WOW. You have really bought into all that humanities bs.
2004/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35358 Activity:insanely high
12/19   In case some of you haven't heard, W is the man of the year:
        http://www.time.com/time/personoftheyear/2004/story.html
        \_ That makes it official, the time man of the year means
           absolutely nothing.
                \_ Time's Man of the Year has never been an honor,
                   just a recognition that good or bad, that person
                   made the biggest impact in the news.
                        \_ I know, but in recent years, the MOY hasn't
                           even accomplished that. Take for instance,
                           "the whistleblowers", or Jeff Bezos, or
                           the best example yet: Rudy Giuliani. None
                           of those people made a huge impact on domestic
                           or global affairs. Most of those people were
                           clearly chosen because there wasn't a single
                           person that made a great accomplishment (in
                           other words, a slow news year), so they just
                           chose someone that was semi-prominent.
           \_ That makes it official, you have no idea what you're
              talking about.
                \_ why?
        \_ You know how last year they selected the American soldier?  This
           year they should have picked the American voter.  He definitely
           wins out over Dubya in terms of stupidity.
           \_ I agree. I can't believe something like 5.8x10e7 people voted
              for John Kerry. Where did all these idiots come from?
              for Dubya. Where did all these idiots come from?
           \_ I agree. I can't believe something like 5.5x10e7 people voted
              for Kerry. Where did all these idiots come from?
                \_ wow when you state it that way, I realize how wrong I was.
                   \_ I said Kerry, some ass keeps changing it to Dubya.
                      Personally I can't believe there are people in America
                      dumb enough to vote for the "global test". Fortunately
                      enough sane people went to the polls in Ohio.
                \- http://www.cafepress.com/ipa_politics.15527178
        \_ Wasn't Hitler Man of The Year in 1938?
           \_ Hitler, Stalin, Khomeni, Castro.. pretty good company.
              \_ I'm glad you neglect to ignore the above about the American
                 soldier who you owe your very right to say such ignorant
                 things. Demonstrates your supreme grasp of MOY award.
                 \_ we wouldn't be in this war if there weren't so many
                    _voluntary_ American soldiers.  Conscription woulda
                    nixed it.
                 \_ that's right, because the american soldiers who were
                    honored as MOY that year are really helping to
                    provide our current freedom. you sure sound like one
                    of the many geniuses who seem to confuse who we're
                    fighting in this war and why.
                    \-I think they should have picked K. ROVE. --psb
                        \_ Yeah, I read they were considering him. If
                           they wanted someone in the Bush camp as MOY,
                           Rove should have been picked, since he was
                           responsible for Bush's victory.
2004/12/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35221 Activity:very high
12/8    Is it known who would replace Rehnquist when he dies? Would
        a current justice become chief and a new justice appointed,
        or would they appoint a new chief justice directly?
        \- the president could do either. rhenquist would probably resign
           before dying. even thurgood marshall resigned inspite of saying
           "i was appointed to a life sentence and i intend to serve it".
           if the chief is out of comission for a while, the senior justice,
           john paul stevens, would assume some responsibilities. oconnor
           would be a fine chief but is probably too close to retiring herself.
           people keep talking about scalia being elevated, which seems crazy
           to me, but that certainly hasnt stopped bushco. even worse would
           be putting ashcroft on the supct. the other people being discussed
           you would probably not be familiar with unless you follow this
           closely. --psb
           \_ http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4049
        \_ Bush will probably nominate Posner (7th Circuit) for the the
           vacancy rather than promote any of the existing justices.
           \- Posner would be cool. Easterbrook would be ok. But the names
              I've been hearing more are nutjobs. Where did you hear the
              Posner rumor? Posner wrote some well publicized stuff on
              intelligence reform and is very much the opposite of a
              stealth justice, so that may alienate some right wing
              support. i think the democrats may go for him because
              he is not totally crazy, and in this climate he looks
              pretty good. --psb
                \_ Not sure where I heard the Posner rumor, but he
                   seems like the best overall choice to take over
                   as CJ b/c (1) he is widely regarded as the
                   smartest judge in the federal judiciary (sort of
                   like a modern Cardozo or Holmes), (2) he would
                   face the least opposition in the senate, (3) the
                   rest of the USSC would likely accept him as CJ
                   w/o reservations.
                   Easterbrook (also 7th Circuit) would probably
                   not be as easy a nomination b/c he has made
                   some crazy decisions in the past.
                   \-i was suggesting resistance to posner would come
                       from the right, not the left. "best choice" !=
                       "likely bush nominee"...q.v. bush41 & "clarence thomas,
                       the best qualified man for the job" --psb
                        \_ Just to keep the record straight, C.T. was chosen
                           only after a qualified justice was rejected by the
                           congress.
                           \_ Who?
        \_ just chedked out the bios of the justices online, they all either
           went to harvard law or stanford law. what, are those schools
           that much better than all other law schools? or is this also a
           good ol' boys club?
           \_ Yes, we need one from Boalt.  And I know the perfect guy:
              (future) Supreme Court Chief Justice John C. Yoo!
              (and Dubya's future new favorite justice)
              Both Yoo and Thomas strictly interpret the Constitution, not
              legislate from the bench! </troll>
           \_ You are not seriously this naive, are you?
                \_ I realize its kind of a naive question but it is an
                   interesting observation still to me. and I wasn't
                   implying that someone from boalt should be chosen.
2004/12/8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35219 Activity:very high
12/8    Torture in our name? Unacceptable.
        http://csua.org/u/a8z (Dallas Fort Worth Star-Telegram)
        \_ If you're trying to portray texans as decent human beings, you're
           going to have to try harder.  Ivins lives in Austin like all
           civilized texans with above a sixth grade education.  Austin is
           about as much a part of red state america as los angeles.
           \_ Damn, you're right.  Travis County voted 56% Kerry, 42% Dubya.
              L.A. County was ~ +7% more blue than that, but still.
  http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/TX/P/00/county.009.html
           \_ The 'red states/blue states' myth always amuses me.  There
              are more republican voters in CA than in in almost any given
              are more republican voters in CA than in almost any given
              red state. -- ilyas
              \_ Indeed.  Here's the popular vote shown as shades of purple:
                 http://www.livejournal.com/users/andromedagal/1522.html
              \_ Wow, that's the first thing I've agreed with you on.
2004/11/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35049 Activity:high
11/23   Ukraine to go FOOM!
        "Tens of thousands of opposition supporters surrounded Ukraine's
        presidential offices after their pro-Western leader declared himself
        president ... Official ballot counts so far show 54-year-old
        Yanukovich won 49.39 percent of the vote compared with Yushchenko's
        46.71 percent, with 99.48 percent of polling stations reporting. Most
        independent exit polls handed victory to Yushchenko, but some of those
        commissioned by Yanukovich's team showed the prime minister as the
        winner."
        http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041123/1/3or3z.html
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6032-2004Nov22.html
        \_ Doesn't Ukraine have some number of nukular weapons?
           \_ http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/ukraine
        \_ Why didn't Al Gore do that?
           \_ I. JUST. DON'T. KNOW.  More importantly, it speaks volumes as to
              how little we believed in Kerry's chances of actually winning.
           \_ No Bush minions tried to kill Gore by poisoning him before the
              election.  No massive formerly imperial neighboring country
              making massive amounts of pressure.  No criminal conviction of
              winning candidate.  No massive government corruption.  Among
              other things.  -John
        \_ I have been following this saga since the beginning (and was rooting
           for the opposition candidate) but I still can't find an answer to
           this question: What evidence of vote rigging does Mr. Yuschenko
           and all those outraged European and American election monitors
           have other than that some of the exit polls don't match the official
           results too well?
2004/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:34915 Activity:insanely high
o11/16  Poll: Which one of the three would you choose to be the president?
        (Let's say there's no other choice, e.g. from the Democrats.)
        Bush   .. :
        Powell    : .......
        Rice      :
        !Bush: .
        \_ I'd have taken Powell over Kerry.
           \_ Despite my Democratic Party reg., I would've voted for Powell
              before his Sec. of State gig, where he proved himself
              spineless. Now that he's lame-ducked, I hope he visits Cheney's
              office just to deck him.
              \_ I kinda agree with you.
        \_ Bush:Evil, Rice:Willing tool of evil, Powell:reluctant tool of evil
        \_ What a silly question. EVERYONE wants to elect Powell.  The
           problem is, he's never going to run.  You might as well wish
           for FDR back.
           \_ Really?  Did he actually say he won't run in the future?
              \_ Yeah, back in '97/98.  I believe he mentioned his wife being
                 concerned about him being the target of assassination attempts
                 (KKK types moreso than run of the mill terrorists/lone nuts).
                 \_ I hear she suffers from various stress related
                    problems.  Being the first lady does not help this.
                    \_ Okay, let's wait till she passes away first.
        \_ Actually, there's another interesting problem with Powell,
           Arabs are famously racist against blacks.  I wonder if that
           would be a problem?
           \_ Aren't Jews racist against blacks also?  Hmm, so Arabs and Jews
           \_ Aren't Joos racist against blacks also?  Hmm, so Arabs and Joos
              are on the same side on this.
              \_ Poor Sammy Davis, Jr.
        \_ 2008 will be Clinton/Gore vs Powell/Rice
           \_ If that turns out to be true, Powell wins by a landslide.
              \_ What's wrong with Hillary as president that we already know
                 (besides being a bitch)?
                 \_ The problem with Hillary, at least what I'm refering
                    to here, is that Powell is liked by pretty much every
                    one.  Hillary is intensly liked by certain people, and
                    hated by everyone else.  She couldn't pull a mojority
                    unless the opponent was Stalin.
                    \_ no one ever tried to kill Stalin. - danh
                       \_ Did someone try to kill Hillary?  Also, Stalin
                          may have been murdered.  The verdict is unknown.
                          \_ I am a registered Republican (yes for the funny
                             postal mail) and I get great flyers from out
                             of state about the need to "retire" the Evil
                             One from New York.  As far as I know Stalin
                             was wildly popular in the Soviet Union and
                             there was no serious attempt to have him killed,
                             unlike Hitler.-danh
                             \_ Wildly popular?  Generally you're a pretty
                                intelligent guy, danh, so I'm going to assume
                                that there must be some underlying element of
                                humor in your comment that I'm not getting.
                                The notion that Stalin was 'popular' is just
                                too absurd to take seriously.  Perhaps you
                                should seek out better source materials.  -POC
                             \_ Stalin was wildly popular in SU in much the
                                same way that Kim Jong Il dude is wildly
                                popular in NK... in fact in exactly the same
                                way.  You can't be serious. -- ilyas
                                \_ polling technology was primitive in ww2
                                   \_ Jesus, just think about the situation in
                                      Stalinist Russia, for a second.
                             \-http://www.cafepress.com/ipa_politics/419204
                             \_ You're saying that the RNC is advocating
                                the assasination of Hillary?  How much
                                Kool-aid have you been drinking?
                \_ I will say that weird fringe groups want Hillary
                   "eliminated" "rubbed out" "taken out".  I really don't
                   get why they think she is the embodiment of All That Is
                   Bad. - danh
                             \_ As I said, some think Stalin was murdered:
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Death
                                \_ his syphilis ridden body failed at 73?
                                   how strange!
           \_ Can a VP serve a third term?
              \_ Of course.  The question is, why would she pick Gore?
                 \_ Oh, she wouldn't pick Al.
                    \_ She'd pick Tipper?
                       \_ Aren't you a bright one!
                          \_ What, is there another Gore I'm forgetting?
        \_ Democrat jizz fantasy:  Powell runs for President on Democratic
           ticket!
           \_  You bastard! I just cleaned my keyboard! -democrat
           \_ 2008: Powell/McCain ticket solidifies moderate-centrist regime
              that lasts for forty years.  Anyone with ideas stronger than
              "small steps and a good economy" labelled a loony.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34849 Activity:nil
11/11   ""Midwesterners don't really relate to Democrats," Carol Kolb,
        editor-in-chief of satirical newspaper The Onion and a Wisconsin
        native, told http://FOXNews.com. "Especially Kerry, he was much more
        intellectual than Bush, and that's not what someone in Middle
        America relates to."
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138347,00.html
2004/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34784 Activity:moderate
11/9    http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=18049
        Latest Tom Tomorrow comic strip
        \_ Wow, JUST as unfunny as usual!
           \_ I don't know, Kerry playing with Barbie dolls was pretty funny.
              Don't you agree?
              \_ eh.  no.  Not that funny.
                 \_ I guess you voted for Dubya?
                    \_ Kerry playing with Barbie dolls is funnier for
                       Kerry supporters?
                       \_ I voted for Kerry, and I think Tom Tomorrow
                          is never funny and can't draw.
                          \_ Why do you hate never served? Do you understand
                             the effect Bud Day obviously had on the STANDARD
                             mass opium graves?
2004/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34779 Activity:kinda low
11/9    The behind-the-scene look at the campaign by the Newsweek embeds
        is a pretty good read.  Not terribly flattering to the Kerry camp.
        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407226/site/newsweek
        \_ 1)  Not really.
           2)  Their account of Bush's time at Yale is based on pure fiction.
               There's nothing "regular" about being a way below average
               student, an alchoholic, a criminal, and a Bonesman.
               \_ Sure, sure. And what was Kerry's GPA?
                  \_ You overwrote my post.  You = teh gay
           3)  Stop posting the same shit over and over.
           \_ My, we're just a wee bit bitter, aren't we?
        \_ Next up: the "Sweet Valley High" election special!
2004/11/9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34773 Activity:high
11/8    Why aren't the media/liberals capitalizing on the man who committed
        suicide because Bush got re-elected? I mean, they should use that
        to make a point that Bush sucks, like "the first man who commit
        suicide because of the presidency."
        \_ troll. I'll bite. because the guy Was CRAZY
        \_ Maybe because you've had too much of the partisan kool aid and
           the media is actually less liberal than you think.
        \_ I think you were intended to see "LAME" below.
        \_ Actually it highlights the mental state of Kerry followers.
2004/11/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34763 Activity:low
11/7    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/08/watson.policy/index.html
        Alright since when did CNN switch to the right side? Frigging
        traitor, I'm going back to the good 'ol CBS liberal news.
        \_ The behind-the-scene look at the campaign by the Newsweek embeds
           is a pretty good read.  Not terribly flattering to the Kerry camp.
           http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407226/site/newsweek
           \_ Nice of them to fail to report any of this until after the
              election.
              \_ I assume holding off reporting till after the election is
                 part of the deal that got the campaigns to allow the embeds
                 access in the first place.
                 \_ If the press has real news that would make a difference
                    to the way people vote we should know about it.  If the
                    reporters in the Bush campaign saw the same things, they'd
                    be leaked all over the place.  I want everything from both
                    campaigns equally.  I want the truth.  If you can't get
                    the truth from the media in a timely manner that would
                    make a differnce what the hell good are they?
2004/11/8 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34759 Activity:high
11/7    OSC surprises me again with an original take on a current event:
        Osama bin Laden's recent video probably had little effect on our
        presidential election. But that wasn't his goal.
        Remember, Osama doesn't actually care who wins our election. He's
        worried about his own campaign to be Caliph of all Islam -- sort
        of the Pope and Augustus Caesar rolled into one.
        And in his campaign, that videotape was a no-lose proposition.
        If Kerry won, then he could tell his followers that Americans had
        chosen Kerry because they feared the mighty hand of Islam and
        they only need to continue on the present course to achieve
        complete victory.
        And if Bush won, he could tell the Muslim world that the American
        people had chosen to keep with their satanic leader, so now the
        American people deserve to be murdered.
        \_ what's OSC and why is this original
           \_ Orson Scott Card?
        \_ Link, man!  Give us a link!
2004/11/7-9 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:34738 Activity:kinda low
11/7    Dollar expected to fall amid China 's rumoured selling:
        http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html
        \_ Not to worry, we will soon be driving our cars on the power
           of Jesus, not oil.  If only those damn libberuls would believe!
           \_ You say Bush invaded Iraq for oil.  Ok.  Fine.  What would Kerry
              have done for oil?
                \_ Help prepare the country for the inevitable peak in oil
                   production, which will occur in 25 years if we are really
                   lucky.  If we are unlucky shortages will start occuring
                   in 2005-2010.  Push alternatives, increase CAFE, actually
                   LISTEN to scientists as opposed to the faith-based belief
                   in the status quo.  Keep Alaska as a ace in the hole to
                   use to power the transition to a post-oil society.
2004/11/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34732 Activity:moderate
11/5    isn't it really weird that where paper ballots were used,
        the exit polls were accurate, and where electronic ballots
        were used, the exit polls were wildly inaccurate?  like
        every single time?  republicans and stat nerds,
        please defend yourself.
        \_ I'm not going to defend anyone, but you might find this interesting
           http://ustogether.org/election04/florida_vote_patt.htm and
           http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm
           I don't see obvious evidence of machine based voter fraud, but
           I did not really look as carefully as I could have.  This site
           is nice, though, because it has raw data.  If there was fraud, it
           should be apparent in these numbers somehow.
        \_ Well, what I found odd was that CNN's exit polls moved in
           Bush's favor AFTER the election.  I'm still scratching my head
           about that one.  It was a shift of almost 4% in some cases.
           \_ Seek knowledge.  The exit poll system broke late evening and
              didn't get another update until after 1am so they did this
              horrible thing: they used the real returns counted from real
              votes.
              \_ What do you mean?  How can you get how many women voted
                 for Kerry vs men from real returns?  Did the final exit
                 poll results include real returns or not?
        \_ It is weird because it isn't true.  You saw very early returns
           released to the net without any information about where those polls
           where taken, how many were polled, nothing.  Please take Stat 2
           because you continue to spread further misinformation.
        \_ Stop smoking the Democratic Underground crack pipe. -liberal
2004/11/7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34731 Activity:high
11/5    http://fromasadamerican.blogspot.com/2004/11/how-you-could-have-had-my-vote.html
        Everyone here who isn't a moronic bible thumping pig fucking red neck
        should read this.  Most of you won't "get it" but I still have hope
        for a few of you.
        \_ The party of Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and Ann Coulter
           claims that the Democrats are full of hate. Pretty amusing.
           \_ So... you've been in a cave for the last week?
              \_ No, did Rush Limbaugh agree to stop calling his
                 political opponents Nazi's or something? Have
                 The Republicans announced that they distance
                 themselves from the hate speech coming from
                 the above and Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson
                 and the rest of the Religious Right? Have
                 they decided that gays are human beings yet?
        \_ She missed one important component, as described by Zell Miller.
           There is nothing as treacherous as committing, as political
           party, to a war and then, later, actively campaigning against it
           for political gain.  Completely disgusting and unforgivable.
           Lieberman seemed to be the only prominent candidate that
           appreciated this - congrats to him.
        \_ Stop arguing about all those reasons you have lost!  Many who
           voted for Kerry can tell you they would have voted for Bush if
           only ....  There are moments in history, like the fall of Memphis,
           the conquest of Syracuse, the defeat of Maxentius, or the burning
           of the Forbidden City, when destiny is supreme and everything
           else is inconsequential.  The new Genghis Khan is on his way.
           Be wise and get on good terms with your new overlords for the
           safety of yourself or your descendents.  You may only keep your
           ideas of enlightenment to your heart, or transmit them on scripts
           to some future mythical future generation, who will live through
           the same cycle of renaissance and ruin.
2004/11/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Recreation/Media] UID:34727 Activity:very high
11/5    Pixar does it again.  I went to see The Incredibles tonight.  It's
        amazing how they've managed to nail every single movie.  I highly
        recommend it.  (And the CGI was up a notch.  The water was amazing, and
        some of the hair effects were spectacular--when the mom finished
        wrestling with the kids, her hair was believably frazzled a bit.)
        \_ While hair *rendering* is no doubt a CGI skill, wouldn't the state
           of frazzledness be an animator's achievement?
           \_ No. The software is everything. Seriously.
        \_ I also saw it.  Best - Pixar - movie - ever.
           Weirdly, it also had something that if Kerry demonstrated, would
           have won the election with.  This "something" is stupid, irrational
           faith.
           \_ I always get a kick out of people saying shit like that.  Stupid
              irrational faith, indeed.  You know, mr. secular western
              liberal, how much of your belief system is just arbitrarily
              chosen axioms, right?  Honestly, after this election, I haven't
              talked to a _single_ actually tolerant liberal.  They are all
              angry and prejudiced for some reason. -- ilyas
              \_ "for some reason"
           \_ Aren't you looking for a different thread?
        \_ More importantly, how was the Star Wars teaser trailer?
2004/11/5 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34703 Activity:high
11/5    'Jesusland' is bigger than it looks:
        http://www.speakeasy.org/~milnor/where.jpg
        \_ Does anyone have a similae histogram showing total population?
        \_ Your title is even more deceptive.  What this truly shows is that
           Kerry had places where he's overwhelmingly popular, while Bush
           barely squeaked in in a lot of places.
           \_ No, it doesn't show that.  Small column does not necessarily
              mean 'squeaked by' it could just mean there is an overwhelming
              majority, and few people there.  Conversely, for Kerry, a large
              histogram does not mean overwhelming support, it just means
              the place has a lot of people, so even a difference of a few
              percent would give a large histogram.  You = idiot.
              \_ Either he's really an idiot who needs to refresh his high
                 school math, or he's just a bitter Kerry supporter who tries
                 to confuse people.
              \_ And you = flatulent gas bag.  Your analysis, however, is much
                 more in-dpeth than mine.  Congratulations.  Now fuck off.
           \_ Well, Bush was also overwhelmingly favored in some places, mainly
              those with more cows than people.
                \_ Some cows apparently voted in Ohio:
        link:www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/state/10103910.htm?1c
        (use http://www.bugmenot.com for the registration)
        \_ Crap.  And I thought computer voting was perfect.
2004/11/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34688 Activity:very high
11/4    Amusing quote from http://democraticunderground.com:
        "CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by
         53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's
         male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender
         voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state."
        I found it amusing because, even assuming exit polls can't be
        horribly manipulated, and aren't noisy, the conclusion still
        doesn't follow (due to Simpson's paradox).  Btw, I can't
        believe I haven't found that site before, it's so fun to
        read! -- ilyas
        \_ It's fun to read because they ignore little things like the fact
           that the exit polls only poll a very small number of places, not
           every place and even if they did poll every place, they still don't
           poll every person so it is not possible to predict an entire state
           from a small number of precints like this.  They also ignore the
           possibility that Kerry supporters sought out exit pollsters while
           Bush supporters ignored them.  There are several other things they
           ignore which shows a deeply fundmental failure to understand very
           basic statistics and how exit polls are actually conducted.  We
           don't ask Zogby or exit pollers to pick our President.  We vote to
           determine that.  And yes, democraticunderground is fun to read. :-)
        \_ Could this explain the strong Kerry exit poll at first, and then
           due to some events, the numbers started to turn around?
        \_ This isn't anywhere near a simpson's paradox band.
        \_ Please give an example (specific numbers) of how this is
           possible.
           \_ Sorry, I have to eat crow on this one, a third variable has
              to be involved in the statement. -- ilyas
           \_ Simpson's doesn't apply.  Ilya is meta-trolling.
              What is more interesting is that from Tuesday to now,
              cnn's exit poll numbers for ohio have slid Bush's way.
              \_ This is interesting, you're right.  Last time a looked at
                 Ohio (and Iowa) exit poles, they were slightly in Kerry's
                 favor, now they are slightly in Bush's favor.  What
                 happened?  Late poling data?
                 \_ IT'S A FOCKING SCANDAL IS WHAT IT IS
                    \_ Hoo-kay.
        \_ The question is, was Bush ahead in *every* exit poll where the
           votes are hard to inspect (EV/no reporter access) or did these
           authors just pick and choose the ones where the exit poll showed
           Kerry ahead but he lost, ignoring the exit polls where it went the
           other way and said "look the actual vote is X% ahead for Bush
           compared to every exit poll, that's statistically impossible!"
           I agree that the level of unbelievability is pretty high on this
           one, but we are talking about Karl Rove, the CEO of Diebold and
           an administration that continues to lie about saying X even when
           confronted by direct video evidence of them saying X.
        \_ DU is the left wing version of Little Green Footballs.
        \_ The Union lost, GET OVER WITH IT ALREADY.
2004/11/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34687 Activity:insanely high
11/4    Maybe next time you'll listen to me and vote for the truly progressive
        candidate instead of wasting it on spinners and liars.  You knew when
        you gave him the primary that you didn't like him but for some strange
        reason though the rest of the country was so stupid you could put
        lipstick on the pig and they'd vote for it.  Well, the country saw
        a pig with lipstick.  You got the government you deserve and yes I'm
        pissed off that this otherwise golden opportunity to create a true
        party for the people was completely and utterly thrown away.  -N'04
        \_ The country did vote for the pig with the lipstick!
        \_ Let me make this absolutely crystal fucking clear.
           1) I voted for Kerry in the primary because I like the guy.
           2) He got more total votes than Gore did in 2000 or than Clinton
              *ever* got, or even than Reagan ever got.  That's right.
              he actually got slightly more votes than Reagan in 1984.
              \_ Hello, idiot.  Meet a new concept called 'population growth.'
                 \_ There was a baby boom in 1984?  'Cos I missed it. More
                    like there was greater voter turnout this year, idiot.
                    \_ Hello shit-eating fucktard.  Are you telling me that
                       the amount of votes Kerry got over Reagan is bigger than
                       the proportional amount of democratic new voters
                       since 1984?
                       \_ You poor deluded pus-ridden gut-twat, I'm telling
                          you that the BushDrone drove more people to actually
                          register and vote for his opponent than bothered to
                          vote for Reagan.
           2) If it was between Nader and Bush, I would have voted for Bush.
           3) Nader couldn't even get the nomination of HIS OWN FUCKING PARTY!
           4) Since he wasn't on the ohio ballot and florida wasn't close,
              Nader wasn't even a spoiler this time.
           5) Fuck you and die.
        \_ Lipstick on a pig?  Uhm, you're a weirdo.
        \_ Dean would have been a better choice than Nader.
           \_ Dean would have lost by 10-15 points.
              \_ And how many points would Nader have lost by if he had
                 been the Democratic nominee?
              \_ Oh, well, if you say so, it must be true.
        \_ The people hate Nader. Nader is a giant cock. party for the poeple
           my ass. I know I bashed Kerry at times but if you look at what he's
           done this campaign the guy deserves some respect. Stupid third
           parties can't even win a local election anywhere. Not even some
           state assembly member or anything.
           \_ why are you responding to the obvious troll?
        \_ He's sort of got a point. I don't understand
           all this ruminating about the missing
           morality issue. I think the much simpler
           reason why Kerry lost is because he was
           was uninspiring as a personality. People
           voted for him in the primaries because
           they thought he was the guy who could
           beat Bush, not because they were
           particularily excited about him as a
           candidate. That, plus he's from a region
           that hasn't fielded a successful presidential
           candidate since 1960. I hate the Bush
           presidency, but I was voting for Kerry more-
           or-less only because he wasn't Bush. I can
           imagine that someone who wasn't a Bush
           fan, but didn't hate his actions either, not
           seeing much of a reason to vote Kerry.
           It retrospect (as many people at the time
           and throughout pointed out), it was pretty
           brain-dead. We need a Howard Dean-type,
           but from the south in 2008. (sorry about the formatting)
        \_ He's sort  of  got a  point.  I don't  understand  all  this
           ruminating  about the  missing morality  issue. I  think the
           much simpler  reason why  Kerry lost is  because he  was was
           uninspiring as  a personality. People  voted for him  in the
           primaries because they thought he was the guy who could beat
           Bush, not because they  were particularily excited about him
           as a  candidate. That, plus  he's from a region  that hasn't
           fielded  a successful presidential  candidate since  1960. I
           hate the Bush  presidency, but I was voting  for Kerry more-
           or-less  only because  he wasn't  Bush. I  can  imagine that
           someone who wasn't  a Bush fan, but didn't  hate his actions
           either,  not seeing  much of  a  reason to  vote Kerry.   It
           retrospect  (as  many  people  at the  time  and  throughout
           pointed  out), it was  pretty brain-dead.  We need  a Howard
           Dean-type,  but from  the south  in 2008.  (sorry  about the
           formatting)
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34682 Activity:nil
11/4    jesus fucking batshit on a burning stick!  you won!  get over kerry
        already.  He's not ever going to be president, and he's not even
        a senator anymore, so just fucking get over it.
        \_ Seconded.
        \_ No. It is not sufficient to win elections. We must utterly
           destroy any Democrat stupid enough to try and stand against us.
           Then the Enemy will know to not try and stop our Christian
           agenda.
        \_ Who said he is no longer a Senator?
           \_ Ok, I was wrong about that, but this is still absurd.  He's
              not a California senator.  Why can't you jackasses say something
              positive about your guy who just won instead of launching negative
              attacks against someone who has ALREADY lost?!  What the hell
              is the matter with you people?
              \_ yeah, at least they can complain about how the liberal media
                 and the left in general are going to make everything Dubya
                 does in his 2nd term look stupid, as they are complaining
                 about right now on http://freerepublic.com.
                 \_ I wonder if there are more leftists on the motd reading the
                    freeper crap than any other group here.  I tried reading
                    the site when it first went online.  I haven't been back
                    since then so I have to trust what you say is posted there.
                    I don't understand why you keep dragging the freepers to
                    the motd as if there's some huge block of motd conservatives
                    that are also ardently pro-freeper.  There's just that one
                    freeperboy who I really wish would grow up because he makes
                    us all look bad in the same way the tinfoilers at dailykos
                    and democraticunderground (which I do regularly read) make
                    leftists look bad but I don't come here trying to pin those
                    two crap sites on motd leftists.  I just read them because
                    it amuses me.
        \_ Seriously, just delete the crap.  It's worthless.  (Although,
           as far as dividing America goes, I don't think all the "Bush is
           the most evil president ever!!!1!1" stuff is too helpful
           either.)
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34681 Activity:nil
11/4    Was Terry Kerry Drunk Yesterday At John's Concession Speech?
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1270299/posts
        watch on Cspan.  She looked blitzed a number of times throughout
        the campaign.  It's hilarious.
        \- 1. they probably had not been sleeping a lot lately 2. who cares
           3. number of people laura bush has driven over - number of people
              THK has driven over >= 1.  --psb
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34680 Activity:nil
11/4    My god.  I post Arlen Specter's comments as a sign of sanity, and
        it's followed up by Kerry's great grandfather the opium trader and
        Teresa drunk rich bitch posts among others.
        \_ Well, we already knew the motd freeper and the Swift Boat Guy were
           certifiable.  Now they're just proving it.
        \_ Just curious, do you think Z. Miller was a traitor to his party?
           If so, then how is the Arlen Specter post anything but more
           partisan noise rather than "sanity"?  Politics is about differences
           in opinion and philosophy.  As long as you keep believing those
           who think differently are sub-humans and insult voters you need
           to win elections, you'll keep losing elections.  My favorite wall
           line was how all those moronic mouth breathing bible thumping
           pig fucking red necks elected GWB.  They're people.  They're not
           \_ You implied that I thought ALL Bush supporters were like this
              which is false.  I just said there are a lot more than I thought
              and yes, they support Bush over Kerry.  Do you think the
              slack-jawed yokel on the Simpsons is offensive? Which candidate
              do you think he would support? And I didn't use the word
              "redneck" either.  Keep trying!
           like you.  But, you need their vote.  Keep at it.  Keep trying to
           dehumanise them and dismiss their opinions and the things important
           to them.  That's a great way to remain the minority party.  I know
           your party won't take this sort of advice from the outside but hey,
           I tried.  I think a one-party system is bad for the country.  I'd
           like your guys to at least start putting up a fight to keep my guys
           from slacking off.
           \_ I love how the freepers are all talking about how Democrats
              "keep losing elections".  Here's a hint: we're 2 and 2 in the
              past 15 years.
           \_ So a president who sneers about a man being from "Massachusetts"
              is ok?  I realize your point, and it's valid, but a little anger
              is appropriate here.  Bush won on scare tactics and cheap shots
              against a candidate who had an admirable history but didn't stand
              up for himself enough. That America fell for it, choosing a known
              bad president over a possibly bad president, is a sad artifact of
              marketing.
              \_ Kerry wasn't running on scare tactics?  You must have
                 been watching a different debate than me.
           \_ I don't think Zell Miller is a traitor to his party.
              He's just wrong. -liberal
           \_ The Republicans are hardly "slacking off." You pulled off the
              greatest GOTV in history, which is why your man won Tuesday.
              Good job, by the way, this has traditionally been a Democratic
              Party strength. But GOTV requires tremendous effort. Can
              you keep up the level of support? If you can, you deserve
              to be the majority party. My guess is that you will not:
              you will splinter on the ficsally conservative/fiscally
              loose axis. We shall see.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34677 Activity:nil
11/4    Does this mean we get to look forward to hearing about Kerry the Evil
        Opium Baron for the next three weeks on the motd?  --chinese opium
        swift boat guy #1 fan
        \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA???!
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34674 Activity:high
11/4    I finally had time to track this down after the frenzy of the election.
        Francis Blackwell Forbes [Kerry's maternal great-grandfather] was a
        China merchant, opium trader and botanist.  He and other members of
        the Forbes family were active in the Opium trade and China trade
        during the Opium Wars, amassing a large fortune.  http://csua.org/u/9tm
        My (Chinese) wife is now extremely sorry she voted for Kerry.
        \_ Are you Chinese?
           \_ Yes.
        \_ And the actions of Kerry's ancestors matters because...?
           And voting for a war-monger like Dubya is better because...?
           And it matters even though Kerry lost because...?
           \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the devestation the opium
              traders wreaked on China?  Did Kerry enjoy the benefits of
              Forbes' opium trading?  If not directly monetarily, how about
              in terms of access, connections, vacations in family compounds,
              etc.?  Why would *any* Chinese vote for someone who extracted
              (and continues to enjoy) benefits from the opium trade?
              \_ Maternal great-grandfather... that's a pretty long time
                 ago.  Let's try a little closer to home.  Bush had
                 economic dealings with Osama.
                 \_ Did Kerry enjoy benefits from the fortune Forbes made from
                    the opium trade?  Yes or no please.
                    \_ What if he did? Is that his fault?
              \_ Jefferson owned slaves!  Get rid of that damn constitution
                 and never vote Democrat again!  -John
                 \_ And if you were black, and if Jefferson's decendent had
                    enjoyed benefits from the fact that Jefferson owned
                    slaves, then I would say that you would be justificed in
                    condemning Jefferson's decendent.  So the question is,
                    did Kerry enjoy benefits because he was descended from
                    Forbes?
                    \_ The election is over.  Kerry lost.  Get over it.
              \_ Yes, I am Chinese.  Are you?  Let it go.  Move on.
                       \_ The question remains.  Why would any Chinese vote
                          for anyone who enjoyed benefits from opium trader
                          money?
                          \_ Because of the 'markov moral property' --
                             Kerry just used money.  That the money might
                             have been gotten in questionable ways by
                             his ancestors is not relevant.  They are
                             dead, and conditioned on the money, the
                             actions of Kerry and their actions are
                             independent.
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                          \_ Your argument style and bloody minded insistence
                             is suspiciously similar to Swift Boat guy. Yay
                             Swift Boat Guy!!!
                             --swift boat guy #1 fan
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                                \_ Did it turn chinese people into raging
                                   idiots?
                                \_ Are you the Swift Boat Guy?
                          \_ Because Bush is an even bigger ass who has
                             commited repugnant acts in the modern day?
                             Look, the choice is between douche and turd.
                             I choose douche.
                             \_ Are you Chinese?  Do you understand the effect
                                the opium trade had on China?
                                \_ Are you an idiot? Do you understand that
                                   typing the same question in three different
                                   places on a thread makes you look like
                                   one?
                                   \_ You can't answer the question, can you?
                                      \_ Yes, I can.  That has no bearing on
                                         Kerry, however.  You really should
                                         go back to ranting about Bill Clinton.
                                         At least he was actually the
                                         President for awhile.
                                \_ Uh, I already answered.  Yes, I am Chinese.
                                   Are you?  The opium war is in the past,
                                   okay?  Let it go.
        \_ Bush deceived the American people, embroiled us in a war based on
           lies, and funnelled American taxpayer dollars into corporations that
           donated heavily to his political party.  Why would any American
           vote for Bush?
           \_ You need to read up on the history of the opium traders.
              \_ You really need to open your fucking eyes.
        \_ And the Bush fortune was based on trading with the Nazis. Which
           was worse? The opium wars or the holocaust?
        \_ It is this kind of crap that is destroying America. Your guy won.
           Stop taunting and rubbing salt in the wound unless you want us
           to block your every action for the next four years.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34664 Activity:kinda low
11/4    If the Bush campaign is indeed using the churches to GOTV, why the
        fuck do they have tax-exempt status?
        \_ Don't most political organizations have tax exempt status as
           non-profits anyway?
           \_ My donation to MoveOn was not tax-deductible, if that's what
              you mean.
        \_ Churches don't formally endorse politicians.  At any rate, black
           churches are also a huge democratic source of votes.
           \_ This is no longer as true as you might think.
           \_ churches are no longer a huge democratic source of votes.
            Blacks, especially apathetic ones, just don't go. And
            they don't seem to give a damn. New black voter turnout
            was proportionally the LOWEST of all ethnic groups. Kerry
            pretty much counted on them and took them for granted, not
            realizing how much they've changed.
        \_ And every election there is video of the Dem candidate openly
           campaigning INSIDE A CHURCH.  Why do THEY have tax-exempt status?
           \_ During a service or not?  The clergy are very careful to say
              everything up to but not including, "Vote for So-n-so."  As
              long as they do this, they are not in violation of their tax-
              free status.  This was covered in great detail by CBS, NPR, and,
              frightneningly enough, the Daily Show.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34647 Activity:nil
11/4    Here's one for the could'a, should'a, didn't file:
        Dubya:  "If America shows uncertainty or weakness in this decade, the
                 world will drift toward tragedy."
        Kerry:  "Our current President, Mr. Bush, shows moral weakness.  He
                 shows the moral weakness of not being able to admit to
                 America that the primary reason we went into Iraq was because
                 of an imminent danger of WMDs, of which his vice president
                 said we had no doubt Saddam possessed.  He shows the moral
                 weakness of not being able to admit he was wrong, when he
                 was clearly wrong.  Instead, the world views Americans as
                 arrogant bullies, more intent on saving their own lives --
                 saying t'hell with the rest of the world.
                 If America chooses to re-elect President Bush, we will be
                 putting our moral, yes, moral stamp of approval on a man
                 whose incompetence has directly led to the deaths of tens of
                 thousands of innocent Iraqi bystanders, and the
                 condemnation of most freedom-loving individuals of the
                 world, while most Americans sit safely at home in the
                 richest nation in the world.  It is the moral weakness of
                 our current President, one who can simply not admit that he
                 was wrong and perhaps never learn from his enormous
                 mistakes, that will surely lead the world toward tragedy."
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34644 Activity:nil
11/3    We underestimated rednecks. Now what?
        \_ No -- we chose a candidate that no R or conservative would EVER
           vote for.  Time to start playing a smarter game in the primaries.
           \_ I pray the Dems put up someone reasonable next time, and I
              pray the Republicans can get someone better than Bush.
              But they probably learned the wrong lesson. -voted for Bush.
              \_ I suspect the R can't put up Cheney in 08, so who then?
                 McCain or Powell, I'd vote for (as a D/I).  Frist?  Lord,
                 I hope not.  If all D can put forward is Obama or La Clinta,
                 then it's going to be a pretty one sided race.
2004/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34641 Activity:nil
11/3    google challenge: text of john edward's concession speech.
        i found kerry's no problem, but can't find edwards
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34638 Activity:kinda low
11/3    I guess Canada is the place for Liberals who like an unbiased
        media...
        http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20041025
        \_ Duh, Dubya is clearly bad.  There's just no arguing it.
           Stolen Honor is about what Kerry did 30-40 years ago, and people
           are still arguing about Vietnam.
           Stolen Honor is about what Kerry did 30-40 years ago, and
           people are still arguing about Vietnam.
           \_ LOL!
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34637 Activity:kinda low
11/3    How come every picture of Kerry and Edwards in the media today looks
        like they're about to kiss?
        \_ GARRAIGE!
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34632 Activity:moderate
11/3    Hello, fellow liberals. We have been defeated. I guess we
        might as well as embrace all the things that our conquerers
        would like us embrace.  What's the best way to go about learning
        Christianity, country dancing, guns, Southern food, dating
        hot Southern belles, and other good stuff? -ok thx
        \_ I know you're trying to be funny but there are quite a bit
           of Democrats who are Christian, do country dancing, have a
           hobby in guns, etc... Not all of those things are Republican-
           only things.
              \_ yes and there are good Muslims and bad Christians,
                 that stereotype sucks, blah blah blah. Who cares. The
                 exit poll numbers speak for themselves. If 91% of the
                 Bush supporters value Bush's religion and faith while
                 only 9% of the Kerry supporters value the same thing,
                 then the majority has spoken to us what they really
                 are.
        \_ Learn proper anal intercourse technique.  Southern Belles seem to
           love that shit.
           \_ Hello German John. No Hail for you.
                \_ I would have (a) signed it, and (b) provided an ass link
                   for your convenience.  Bad.  Down.  -John
                   \- south western belle ass link: link:csua.org/u/9rg
        \_ I, for one, welcome our old Republican overlords.
        \_ All us liberals really want now is another Bill Clinton, less
           the hobby of getting blow jobs from interns.
           the predisposition of getting blow jobs from interns.
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34630 Activity:low
11/3    Why did Kerry have a strong, early exit poll lead?
        - Because while the Democrats were voting during the day, the
        Republicans were working. (bahrump bump)
        \_ Dick Morris (who predicted a Bush win) says it was liberals
           attempting to depress conservative turnout - says it's very hard
           to get an exit poll wrong - you have to work very hard to do it.
        \_ Bush either won for one of 4 different reasons:
           1) Electronic voting machines were rigged (hence the exit poll
                inconsistency in states with EVs)
           2) People really like Bush's policies.
           3) People don't like Bush's policies, but like his "moral compass"
              or whatever
           4) People don't like Bush's policies, but where more scared by
              John Kerry's potential policies.
           For me, order of scariness worst to best: 1,3,2,4
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34629 Activity:high
11/3    High voter turnout was supposed to help Kerry.  We got record
        turnout and voted for Bush.  Ideas?
        \_ Priests telling their congregations that not voting for Bush
           was a sin?
        \- i think strategically locating wedge issues like gay=bad may
           have helped proBUSH turn out, e.g. in OH. i wonder if this
           would have been doable if MA and SF had help off for one yr. --psb
        \_ two reasons. One, the blue states are full of city people
           who don't have time to raise kids. In contrast, the red hick
           states are full of people who have too much time to screw
           around, like their sisters and cousins so they tend to
           out-reproduce the blue population. Point two, the blacks
           were suppose to help out, which they did (90% voted for
           Kerry). But the new Black voter turn-out rate was the lowest
           of all ethnics, which, should not be a surprise given how
           apathetic they have been since the 60s. So who screwed it
           up for Kerry? The damn hicks and the damn niggers.
           \_ so when is P. Diddy going to officially become this country's
              most prolific non-government-sanctioned mass murderer?
           \_ Ya know, where would be without the motd in our lives, to bring
              us wonderful reminders of the power of a University Education?
        \_ the Amish people must have voted for Bush. It is all their
           fault. For the good of the country, we must begin eradication
           of the the filthy Amish population! Hail!
        \_ There was no way that we were going to let Kerry take
           this country away from us and give it to the gays and
           the godless Europeons!
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34617 Activity:moderate
11/3    Now that I think about it, Kerry lost partly because of Clinton.
        The Clinton Lewinski scandal scarred the Democrat party's image.
        Most of the Christians were so horrified that he got away with
        such a crime that they vowed to never vote for the pagan party,
        the Democrats. Thanks a lot, Bill Clinton.
        \_ Uh, no.
        \_ Pinning the blame on any one person is deluded.  The fundamentalists
           have spent 40 years steadily seizing power.  The fact that liberals
           just dismiss these people as ignorant bigots, and can't see what
           is really happening in their own country, is why they keep losing.
        \_ I think the Democrat party lost because of Kerry.  If it were
           someone less flip-floppy who was running against Dubya yesterday,
           I'd have favored the Dems.
           \_ No, whoever attributed yesterday's blow out to the religious
              right's systematic merging of political & religious
              practices is spot on. Meticulous and long-building, Rove's
              organization of alliances between conservative institutions
              got validated -- nevermind that upon closer inspection there
              is nothing compassionate or conservative in this
              administration's policy-making. The content of the different
              political parties' beliefs and their framing were beside the
              point. Jesus Christ, Son of God, could've been the Demo
              nominee, and Rove still would've kicked his ass. --elizp
              \_ It goes way beyond Rove.  The conservative religious political
                 movement has roots going back decades, and its true father is
                 really Billy Graham.
                 \_ And let's not forget Goldwater. --elizp
                    \_ Always thought of Goldwater as more of a hardcore anti
                       communist than a Billy Graham, evangelical type, but
                       perhaps you're right.
              \_ elizp: Jesus would never ever get nominated by the Democrats.
        \_ Very off the mark.  As a friend of mine put it, the question most
           people on Bush's side seemed to be asking themselves was, are we at
           war or not, while the real question was, has this President executed
           the war well or not.  Bush voters mostly thought that Kerry was a
           peacenik, despite all of his speeches to the contrary.  That's the
           power of propaganda.
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