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2018/12/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/7/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32203 Activity:moderate
7/9     This is a report that should concern all patriotic Americans,
        no matter what their political affiliation:
        \_ Like duhhh, apparently you've never been in either civil service
           or in the army. Where did you think the backronim "snafu" for
           Situation Normal, All Fucked Up comes from? This is also why
           tax breaks are good, because private citizens and enterprise
           are a lot more efficient at containing costs than the U.S. Gov't.
           Welcome to reality.
        \_ All Hail the Special Skills Draft!  All geeks to the Pentagon, hut
           \_ Why would they want a bunch of smelly snarly know nothings?
              They want highly skilled technical people.  A very tiny number
              of motd readers have to even think about this.
2004/7/6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:31191 Activity:nil 70%like:31188
7/6     Hell froze over.  Nigeria arrests 500 scammers.
        http://tinyurl.com/2gnou (theaustralian.news.com.au)
        \_ in other news, Nigeria's GDP fell to zero
           \_ GDP = 110B USD
                DOLLARS ($110,000,000,000.00)
           \_ You may wish to know that you lack clue.
                \_ you may wish to know that you lack a sense of humor -phuqm
                   \_ The lord God maintains a sense of humor so that I don't
                      have to.
2004/7/6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:31188 Activity:nil 70%like:31191
7/6     Hell froze over.  Nigeria arrests 500 scammers.
        \_ in other news, Nigeria's GDP fell to zero
           \_ GDP = 110B USD
                 DOLLARS ($110,000,000,000.00)
           \_ You may wish to know that you lack clue.
2004/7/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31163 Activity:kinda low
7/4     Look, Neocons can feel bad about their mistakes. Too bad he doesn't
        feel bad for calling the Geneva Convention "quaint" just for the
        political fallout:
        \_ sorry, it'll take more than that to bait anyone.
2018/12/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/6/24 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30989 Activity:very high
6/24    The UN declined to extend the US's immunity from the International
        Criminal Court.  That immunity expires June 30th, the same day Iraq is
        supposed to be turned over to a provisional government.  Although Iraq
        is not a signatory to the ICC, what would happen if the new "soverign"
        government immediatly ratified the ICC treaty?  Supposedly US soldiers
        could be prosecuted in cases where the US is unwilling to prosecute.
        \_ putting sudan on the UN human rights panel even
           strays my liberal thought shield
           \_ What's wrong with Sudan?  Did Sudan invade another country
              with no cause other than a desire to control that country's
              oil?  Did Sudan illegally imprison and torture thousands of
              foreign citizens whose only desire is freedom from foreign
              rule?  Did Sudan betray their own citizens and constitution
              by imprisoning them in gulags with no legal recourse?  Sudan
              is much better qualified to sit on the UN panel than America.
              \_ Sudan is in the middle of their own little genocide.
                 \_ And America is in the middle of a Crusade fueled by a
                    lust for oil.  I still ask you why is America better
                    than Sudan.  I wish our hands were as clean as Sudans'.
                        \_ what planet do you live on and how much pot
                           and marx did it take you to get there?
        \_ I like the cut of your jib! --aaron
        \_ Those soldiers should be prosecuted for raping all those Japanese
           \_ Which soldiers?  The American ones who got prosecuted for
              raping all tose Japanese women?
              \_ all of them got a slap on a wrisk for abduct and rape
                 14 years old "japanese" women.
        \_ No real country would bring an American up on charges.  Anyway,
           that can only happen in this (bogus) legal context if the country
           the person is a citizen of doesn't have a real legal system and
           doesn't do anything about their own war crimes.  Aaron and similar
           echo-chamber leftists may drool at the possibility of 3 judges from
           the Sudan, Cuba, and North Korea putting an American soldier or
           some high ranking political official on a UN sponsored show trial
           but it'll never happen in the real world.
           \_ Could we hear from the ehco-chamber motd brownshirts one more time
              about how "why do you hate america" is a straw man?  I need
              a good laugh today.
2004/6/22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30955 Activity:very high
6/22    Why aren't hate crime law considered anti-free speech?
        \_ Because you're convicted of the thing you did, and being punished
           for why you did it.
        \_ Because beating someone to death is still murder.  If you did it
           while wearing a swastika and yelling Zieg Heil, then you get an
           extra dose of punishment for being an asshole.  It's still murder.
           All speech is not free.  You may not yell "fire!" in a crowded
           theatre, as you well know.  I hope this wasn't a troll attempt.
           \_ or "bomb!" anywhere in crowded place especially airport.
              \_ shit!  now you've done it!  the black helicopters should be
                 at your place right aboNO CARRIER~~!@~((~
        \_ Assault as speech? If you're talking about the "why" being
           important, mens rea (your state of mind when committing a crime)
           is a long-established factor. For example, the "why" determines
           what kind of charge you get for a homicide. --aaron
        \_ Some people do consider them anti-free speech.
           \_ Insert white power website URL here.
              \_ Yeah, cuz only KKK folk don't agree with tha law...
              \_ No.  It is too easy to knee jerk around and say hate speech
                 should be a crime.  The white power guys have the right to
                 say hateful and racist and whatever things about other people.
                 They do *not* have the right to say those things while they
                 engage in other criminal activity.  Free speech must be
                 carefully tended.  It must be provided to those with whom we
                 disagree or find utterly vile and contemptible.  Who needs
                 free speech more than those who don't have power?  As long
                 as the stupid, the vicious, the mean, the ugly, and the racist
                 haters have free speech, the rest of us are ok.  Once they
                 lose the right to express their hatred of others, watch out!
                 Your rights will be next.
                 \_ you're begging the question.  -tom
                    \_ No, he's not. Some "hate crime" laws regulate only
                       \_ He's begging the question because his assertion
                          (that the most utterly vile and contemptible speech
                          must be protected or else they'll come for you next!)
                          is both unsupported by any argument and at odds with
                          reality.  -tom
                          \_ I don't think that means what you think it means.
                 \_ Sure, they can say whatever they like, as long they don't
                    kill or maim someone because of their hate.  See above in
                    reference to "your state of mind when committing a crime."
                    \- on a related note, you may wish to read about the
                       notion of "group libel". the case to start with is
                       beauharnais v. illinois. on hate speech, see RAV v.
                       St. Paul [a more recent case and probably more relevant
                       today and to this thread than B'harnais.]. In re: the
                       KKK, see the Skokie march incident. I dont remember
                       the name of the case. I seem to remember a lot of Jews
                       "burned their ACLU card" over the ACLU position in that
                       case. --psb
              \_ So rather than discuss the ACLU URL I posted, you simply
                 delete it. On a discussion regarding free speech. Incredible.
2004/6/17 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30866 Activity:very high
6/17    What's up with William Hung? He sings like a retard, he looks
        like a retard, yet every now and then there's news coverage of
        him. Have we really sunk this low?
        \_ It's like the South Park where Timmy joins a rock band.
        \_ White folk like watching buck-toothed, effeminate,
           model-minority Asian men making comic asses of themselves.
           Hung's recording contract is a slap in the face of each
           and every genuinely talented Filipino American or Asian
           American pop music artist who can't get a contract b/c
           s/he isn't black, white, or JLo. -elizp
           \_ This reminds me of the time I was on campus right after Brandon
              Lee got killed in a set accident and these two Asian guys
              walking behind me were echoing each other, each assuring the
              other of the White Man's Conspiracy to demasculinise the Asian
              Male.  They were certain that both Bruce and his son were
              murdered by the White Man as part of this huge conspiracy to
              keep the Asian Man down and in 'his place'.  Get over it.  There
              are plenty of people of other races who are talented and unknown.
              There are plenty of whites, black, and hot brown women with
              great asses that can't get contracts.  It is as much about luck
              as anything else.
           \_ This is a nice theory. Check William Hung's fan pages, though
              and you will find the truth is not so simple. There are
              mostly white people but good representation from other ethnic
              categories as well. I, too, am curious why his fifteen minutes
              have run so long.
           \_ riiiight.  so jlo and the other fucking RIAA-sponsored
              pre fab corporate clowns like the Spice Girls are all about
              talent, huh?  the whole system is rotten.  why point to the
              lack of untalented corporate whore asians in particular when
              all the system turns out is crap anyway?
              \_ I agree -- big labels suck, and indie labels start sucking
                 once they discover they have to act like big-time
                 labels/distributors to break even. -elizp
                 \_ fine. so we agree. then what's the point of complaigning
                    about the evil labels' attitude towards Asian talent,
                    when they show complete contempt for the very concept
                    of talent?  it's like complaigning that your local mob
                    boss isn't an equal opportunity employer.
           \_ You're my hero. Pinoy pride! --jsjacob
           \_ Yeah, it is so mean of those recording companies only giving
              recording contracts to the people who are most likely to have
              a large record buying audience.  Pinoy power!
           \_ He's a buffoon.  Americans like watching buffoons, especially
              the ones who think they're really stars.  It's a character
              defect, yes, but this is not a symptom of anti-Asian sentiment.
              The absolute lack of any major Asian-American pop stars is
              the symptom you're looking for, and yes, it's a crime.
              \_ There are some like James Iha. The industry doesn't care
                 what color you are if: 1) You are talented or 2) You can
                 sell records. Yes, the former will still get you a record
                 deal, although not on a pop label with pop exposure.
           \_ Good response. Haven't thought about it that way, thank you.
           \_ Hey, look, is it white people's fault that there are no hip
              Asian dudes?
              Asian dudes?  The most we can come up with is some nerds-gone-bad
              story (Better Luck Tomorrow), and that just does not qualify.
              \_ Dumbshit, didn't you go to Berkeley?  *EVERYTHING* is white
                 people's fault.
2004/6/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30640 Activity:high 55%like:30630
6/5     Live free or die: how many more Carl Dregas?
        \_ Damn that article has a lot of hero worship for a man who murdered
           serveral people.
           \_ I don't think you're quite reading the author right.  I think
              there's a lot of hero worship _because_ he murdered several
              people (but they were all The Man).
              \_ Oh I am reading it right, I just find it scary how much
                 hero worship someone can have for a man who shot down
                 several people in cold blood.
        \_ What is this?  A radical libertarian site?
        \_ Yeah, how many more loonies are we going to get before we make a
           psych eval necessary to own a gun?
           \_ From my COLD, DEAD HANDS!!!
              \_ I want a t-shirt of this and an Iraqi grabbing an M-16 from
                 a dead soldier. Does this mean I hate America?
                 \_ No, but even a libuhral like me can see that you
                    just wrong.
                 \_ US soldier in foreign country != US civilian in US.  Does
                    this really have to be explained?  Why don't you make a
                    business out of printing up your t-shirt and selling it?
                    You'll probably sell a dozen or so.
2004/6/2 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30549 Activity:insanely high
6/2     Ok, what's so special about the Scott Peterson's case? Why do we
        keep hearing about it on the news? People gets killed everyday
        and no one gives a shit about it on the news. Why Scott
        Peterson? Is it because it's a crime in a rich white
          \_ I've been wondering this myself for a long time.
        \_ richmond is rich and white?
           \_ Richmond was just where he dumped the body.
        \_ Dear god, you're a callous little bastard, aren't you?
        \_ All the little details make it very soap opera worthy.
           \_ Plus, she was photogenic and pregnant.
              \_ Isn't that what I said?
                 \_ No.
        \_ Laci Peterson was Hispanic. Rich, maybe or not, but not white.
           \_ So, have you seen Laci's family on TV?
           \_ "Latinos can be of any race." This one happened to be white.
        \_ Why do you hate Scott?
2004/6/2 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30542 Activity:nil
6/2     Killer Schoolgirl! http://tinyurl.com/345sb
        \_ Is her name Go Go Yubari?
2004/6/1-2 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30533 Activity:high 57%like:34808
6/1     Why do I get the feeling Scott Peterson's trial will turn out to be
        just like the Simpson's? Is the guy rich too?
        \_ No weapon found, no clear cause of death, no witnesses.  Tried
           to run.  Circumstantial case.
           \_ The glove does not fit!
              \_ Next time when you plan to kill and bury someone, make sure
                 you buy a pair of gloves of the wrong size.  Did the police
                 bother to test the inside of the gloves for OJ's DNA?
                \_ in the famous demo, oj was wearing a thin plastic glove
                   under the ill fitting leather glove.  try wearing your
                   gloves with saran wrap on next time, they won't fit either
                   \_ First I've heard of this, Link?
        \_ Instead of a wronged black community supporting the defendant, we
           have wronged angry white males.  Both groups think their guy is
           guilty, but also think the evidence is not sufficient.
           \_ I think he did it, I think the evidence is insufficient, I think
              he'll go to prison for it, I think he should go to prison for it,
              I think he'll go to prison for it for the wrong reason.  Justice
              isn't perfect but as long as the guilty get punished, even if for
              the wrong reasons it's headed in the right direction.  -awm
        \_ The American justice systems, much like everything else,
           are for the rich and the true scumbag. If you are rich, you
           can hire a good enough lawyer and you can get away with
           anything. If you are true scumbag, like those black mother
           fuckers in Oakland, then you can get away with pretty
           fuckers in Oakland, then you can get away with pretty [much]
           everything too, because the law is so protective of the
           supposedly innocent that it basically can't touch you. It
           is the middle class that gets fucked up. It is so fucked
           up, that when we deal with terrorists, we need to drop all
           these bullshit and deal with them the correct way. If we
           deal with criminals the way we deal with terrorists, a lot
           less innocent lives will be killed by criminals that the
           \_ fewer
           law fails to bring to justice. If our justice system is so
           fucking great, then deal with terrorists the same way.
           \_ Wow, nice little rant.  Did you lose $50 in small claims court or
              something?  I'm certain my experience with the legal system is
              much worse than yours (since it continues on after 5 years and
              isn't even half over) but I'm not that frothing and bitter about
              it.  Get laid, get drunk, get over it.
           \_ I am the Law!  Put down your weapons and prepare to be Judged!
              \_ Great comic.  Shitty movie.  Too bad they ruined it.
           \_ You know that guy who spray painted a bus in Singapore?
              He'll never spray paint a bus in Singapore in his life
              again, and will surely spray paint more buses in the US
              while chanting "God Bless America!!"
              \_ It wasn't a bus.  It was several people's personal vehicles,
                 but we get the idea.
           \_ This is a crock. Poor get totally shafted by the justice
              \_ Then why does the system fails to clean up Oakland? East
                 Palo Alto?
                 \_ I don't know but the answer is not because the poor
                    don't get punished for crime. California has a larger
                    percentage of its population locked up than any
                    place on earth. Talk to a DA or PD or any criminal
                    lawyer and ask them about justice and the poor.
                 \_ Shafting poor != cleaning up crime.
2004/6/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30532 Activity:high
6/1     Poll:
        1. Do you think Scott Peterson killed his wife?
        Yes : .,_+/*.
        No  :
        2. Do you think he will be convicted in court?
        Yes : +*.
        No  : .,+/
2004/6/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30529 Activity:low
6/1     Is the story background in "Law and Order - Criminal Intent" related to
        the original LaO and LaO SVU?  I've seen some characters appearing in
        both LaO and LaO SVU, but I've never seen that in Lao CI.  Thanks.
        --- guy getting addicted
        \_ They're all L&O shows, and they all take place in Manhattan.  Are
           you surprised that there are occasionally some common characters?
           What do you mean "story background"?
           \_ No, but I'm surprised that LaO CI has no characters from the
              other two series, and vice versa.
2004/5/31 [Health, Health/Men, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30509 Activity:high
5/31    http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2709203
        The article itself isn't that great, but at the end is the amusing
        fact: "Now that the police routinely test offenders for drugs,
        they are noticing that certain chemicals seem to be associated with
        certain types of crime. One Home Office study of 3,000 arrestees
        found that those pulled in for burglary and shoplifting were more
        likely to test positive for heroin than anyone else. Muggers and
        purse-snatchers, though, were most likely to be cocaine or crack
        users."  -So, know your area's drug of choice, and prepare!
        \_ The pot heads don't commit crimes?  Stuck at home on the couch
           without the will to go rip someone off?
           \_ Sounds like the beginning of a drug dealer infomercial.
              "Are you a pot head?  Stuck at home?  Just can't get up the
              enery to go out and mug someone?  Then Crack Cocaine may be
              energy to go out and mug someone?  Then Crack Cocaine may be
              for you!  Ask your local drug dealer about Crack Cocaine.
              Side affects may include heart attack and a "hanging around
              with butt holes" sensation.
2004/5/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30422 Activity:very high
5/25    US soldiers are thieves:
        \_ Yes.  All American soldiers and by extension all Americans are
        \_ I don't think US soldiers are thieves, however what they are
           doing seems a lot like what happens here where suspected drug
           dealers have all of their property confiscated, guilty until
           proven innocent ... I'm sure the constitution has something to
           say about that.
           \_ What constitution?  Paul Bremer's diary?
           \_ no, you're looking for the military code of conduct.
        \_ duh? It's a war, and a tradition that goes back to Valley Forge.
           \_ VF?  Goes way to the dawn of time.
2004/5/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30352 Activity:nil
5/21    http://csua.org/u/7ej (ABC News)
        30-year-old Abu Ghraib sysadmin Sgt. Provance stripped of his security
        clearance and told he may face prosecution because his comments were
        "not in the national interest."  He was probably smacked because:
        "Provance said when Fay interviewed him, the general seemed interested
        only in the military police, not the interrogators, and seemed to
        discourage him from testifying", making Maj. Gen. Fay (who has been
        assigned by the Pentagon to look into MI's role in the abuse) look
        really bad.
        \_ If you're a sysadmin you'd better be at least a Major.
           Sergeants get paid peanuts. They got what they paid for.
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30214 Activity:very high
5/12    First Court Martial Defendant Details Prison Abuse
        Sivits, who according to sources is expected to plead guilty at a
        court-martial proceeding next week in Baghdad ... maintained,
        according to the documents, that all of this was done without the
        knowledge of their superiors in the Army chain of command. "Our
        command would have slammed us," he said. "They believe in doing the
        right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to
        pay." ... All the other soldiers are expected to plead not guilty.
        ... But Sivits stressed that it was Graner and Frederick who led the
        small band of guards in their nightly revelries. "I was laughing at
        some of the stuff that they had them do," he conceded. "I was
        disgusted at some of the stuff as well. As I think about it now, I
        do not thing any of it was funny." Asked specifically what was not
        funny, he said, "the tower thing" - referring to prisoners being
        forced to strip and form a pyramid on the floor.
        \_ If they all knew it was wrong, and knew they would get in
           trouble... WHY THE FREAK DID THE PHOTOGRAPHI IT?  How stupid
           can you be?
           \_ yer tellin me (NY Post:)
              "[Pfc. Lynndie England ] was having sex with numerous partners.
              It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the
              photos. And, videos showed the disgraced soldier ... engaged in
              graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners
              ... "Almost everybody was naked all the time" ... Many members
              of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby
              missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough
              other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken
              anyone. ... Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the
              House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a
              video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall
              in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.
              \_ Having sex with other soldiers on film is stupid but hardly
                 torture by the geneva convention.  Why even bother reporting
        \_ This is contradictory to what other accused soldiers claimed.
           Maybe he has been softened up by a plea bargain or other tactics?
           \_ It's also possible that soldiers pleading innocent are just
              trying to get a lighter sentence by claiming it was leadership's
              fault.  It could also be that Rumsfeld / the Pentagon accepted
              only Sivits' story, and ignored everyone else's.
              I sure hope the full investigation resolves this.
           \_ This isn't your sissy civilian court where they are trying to
              get through as many pimps and drug pushers in an hour as
              possible.  The military doesn't need to 'plea bargain' with some
              dip shit junior grade nobody.  The guy isn't even a minor
              officer.  IIRC, he was in the reserves.  Sheesh.  He isn't
              getting off easier in any way by pleading guilty.  There is no
              deal.  Ditch the tinfoil hat.
              \_ Do you think they'll give any of them the death penelty?
                 I'm unfamiliar with current military law, but it seems
                 like the right situation.
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30212 Activity:low
5/12    Cold Turkey, by Kurt Vonnegut (05/12/04)
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30090 Activity:very high
5/7     Don't tell me people's civil liberties are not being trampled on
        in The War Against Terror:
        \_ I don't think anyone actually denys it.  Republicans just don't
           care.  Actually, I think that's an understatement.  Republicans
           such as John Ashcroft simply don't believe in civil liberties,
           and clearly demonstrate by their actions that the believe American
           due process of law to be a mistake, not a virtue.  These people
           are every bit as much enemies of the United States and everything
           it stands for as our foreign enemies.  If things in this coutry
           do not change direction, there *will* be civil war.
           \_ I think I should mention that *some* Republicans do care about
              civil liberties and dislike Ashcroft, but for whatever reason,
              they're not that vocal about it.  -motd liberal
              \_ When I say we're heading towards civil war, it's not because of
                 specific actions by Republican leadership; it's because of
                 statements and actions by ordinary citizens who happen to be
                 republicans.  Take a look at the motd.  Listen to AM talk
                 radio for an hour.   Maybe you didn't notice in 2001
                 when these people were calling for Arab Muslims to be rounded
                 up into concentration camps?  This problem won't go away
                 by Bush getting defeated in this election.  It will either
                 go away by a consistent, nation-wide cultural shift towards
                 more freedom-loving values, or, more likeley, by worsening
                 until it comes to war.
                 \_ Actually, a secession along county (rather than state)
                    lines, based on voting majority would work out nicely
                    (for me). -- ilyas
                    \_ what's wrong with state lines?
                       \_ Too much oppression of voting minorities that way.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ There's a tradeoff. I think a little group of
                             counties like in the smaller states works
                             better. They can afford better quality gov't
                             and better share power over natural resources.
                             \_ Actually a break into two roughly equal sized
                                chunks will work ok, as long as they both
                                allow immigration, people will just move to the
                                'right' chunk after a while.  Large chunks have
                                the advantage of not getting taken over by
                                Random_Power_001. -- ilyas
                                Random_Power_001.  If the two chunks started off
                                on equal footing, it would be an interesting
                                social and political experiment. -- ilyas
                 \_ So you think they are going to break out their guns
                    if Bush loses in November?
                    \_ I had a dream last night that the Administration
                       postponed the election to "avoid sending the wrong
                       message to our enemies."  The reaction was not pretty.
                    \_ I think he's saying that liberals are going to wake
                       up and start the war.
                       \_ I sure hope not. -motd liberal
                    \_ Given the economic numbers today, that seems unlikely.
                \_ The bill of rights only protects the weak and the subversive
                   while govt regulations are stilfing us the real Americans.
                   When and if your prophecy comes true, is it hard to bet
                   which side will win?  The peacniks in lotus pose  or we who
                   will take any and every measure to defeat them?  Hmm, it
                   would be fun when we round up liberal chicks as illegal
                   combatants for interrogation.  -- neocon
           \_ Maybe so, but you do realize there's a big difference
              between traditional crime a terrorism, right?  The laws
              designed for traditional crime just don't hold for
              terrorism.  It's a different bag.
           \_ "Republicans just don't care" is a huge overstatement.  The view
              is that they'll give up some liberties so planes aren't crashing
              into buildings, nukes aren't going off, suicide bombers aren't
              exploding.  The idea is, "If the government is watching you, you
              must be doing something bad already."
              I'm not saying this is the correct view, but I believe this is
              the view held by most Republicans.
        \_ How is this any different than any other criminal federal grand jury
           \_ How long can the government hold a person in solitary without
              charging him with a crime or allowing him access to a lawyer?
              \_ in civilian courts, I believe 24 hours.
              \_ In national security cases, as long as they please.
                 (Newsflash: This is not new with Bush.)
                 \_ Basically, if you are designated an enemy combatant,
                    or a material witness
                 \_ Give us an example from the last 30 years.
                    \_ Here is a whole raft of examples post 9/11
                       \_ I believe op mis-stated his question, and wanted
                          to know of examples between the Vietnam War and 9/11.
                          \_ Yes, exactly, thank you. -op
                             \_ here's one example:
                                there are other examples.  but no clue how
                                prevalent usage of the statute was in general.
                                \_ Oh, that doesn't count.  Anti-abortion
                                   activists don't have rights.
                    \_ The "material witness statute" was enacted in 1984. I
                       don't know how often it's been invoked pre-9/11.
        \_ As usual posters on the MOTD have ZERO appreciation of history
           during wartime (or anytime for that matter).  Citizens today
           enjoy far and away more civil liberties than any time in the
           history of this country.  Learn about some of the actions
           taken by FDR, Wilson, and Lincoln to suppress dissent.
           This story sounds very similar to the Intel employee
           who was locked up for some time, all the while
                    into Afghanistan?
           screaming bloody murder about innocence, and is now serving
           a generous prison term.
           \_ As I recall, he was convicted of providing aid to a terrorist
              organization.  He claims he gave money to an Islamic charity.
              The gov't said that the charity gave money to Hamas.  Did he
              really intend to give money to Hamas?  Or is he simply guilty of
              not researching the charity's finances and being Arab?
              \_ You recall incorrectly: -jrleek
                 \_ OK, my bad.  There was *someone* sent up the river for
                    giving money to somebody who gave money to Hamas.
                 \_ He faces 10 years in prison for trying, and failing to get
                    into Afghanistan?
                    \_ That and material aid to the Taliban.  Think about
                       it.  He's a US citizen.  Helping out the enemy in
                       time of war is treason.  In the old days they just
                       would have shot him.
           \_ Yeah, Wen Ho Lee served a generous prison term too.
           \_ Shut up you Facsist Nazi Bad Man!  NO FREE SPEECH FOR
           \_ I'd be really interested in a book on what the crap
              Mr. Hawash was thinking.  What convinced him to leave a good
              job, and 3 kids, to go and "die as a martyr?"
              \_ Phony spirituality.  "Making people do stupid things since
                 34AD". -- ilyas
                 \_ so what's your excuse?
                    \_ Just garden variety stupidity in my case. -- ilyas
                       P.S. Do I know you, Mr. Secret Admirer #5?
                 \_ 34AD?  It goes back a whole heck of a lot farther that
                    that, anti-christian boy.
                    \_ Note, I said 34, not 33. -- ilyas
           \_ Ah, good old Mike Hawash I thought that was dang funny.
           \_ most of those actions were deplorable. Japanese internment,
              hell the whole Civil War was an unethical disaster.
                \_ The internment was not bad.  That there property was
                   not returned afterwards was.  Other ethnic groups
                   were also detained including Italians, Germans and
                   \_ So you'd be fine with the government locking you up for
                      a few years in the name of security?
                      \_ Of course he wouldn't. But the only lock up those
                         "other" people, not REAL Americans.
                      \_ My point is given the saboteur rhetoric widespread
                         in Japanese newspapers at the time, the caches of
                         weapons that were found, and the context of the
                         times it seems entirely reasonable to evacuate
                         coastal regions of recently arrived Japanese (not US)
                         citizens and their children (and Germans, Italians
              initially get lawyers until the copys figure out what's
                         and Mexicans).
                         The Federal government was much smaller so large
                         scale surveillance was not pluasible, a Japanese
                         invasion of the west coast was completely
                         possible, and sabotage in Europe by Axis agents had
                         done much damage.
                         They should have been given some payment based on
                         their detainment and their property returned.
              \_ Funny, I thought we were discussing the legality of the
                 action, not the ethics.  legal != ethical (and vice
        \_ Turns out he was one of the lawyers defending Jeffrey Battle,
           another of the Portland 7.
           \_ If that's true it's a good example of why terrorist don't
              initially get lawyers until the cops figure out what's
              going on.  Terrorists in jail can still communicate deadly
2004/5/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29961 Activity:very high
5/3     "I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the abuse is said
        to have occurred) and when I looked down the corridor, I saw two
        naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth
        open," he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out of
        there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing
        to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and he
        said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two
        seconds.'" -NY Times
        ... quoted General Taguba as saying the military police and
        intelligence officials had committed "sadistic, blatant and wanton
        criminal abuses," including sodomizing a prisoner "with a chemical
        light and perhaps a broomstick." -NY Times again
        In the report, Taguba also noted that "many individual soldiers" and
        some units in the 800th had "persevered in extremely poor conditions"
        and upheld "Army values." For instance, he commended a Navy dog
        handler who "knew his duties and refused to participate in improper
        interrogations despite significant pressure from military
        intelligence personnel at Abu Ghraib" and two Army military policemen
        who he said blew the whistle on abuses. -LA Times
        \_ Why there shoud be no gays and women in the military.  All
           the photos show is hazing, poor Muslim babies.
        \_ so what's your point?
           \_ everyone knows the photos, but not the above
              http://cnn.com on Sunday was all about the rescued contractor (Hamill)
              \_ everyone?  All of this has been all over.  Even Fox was
                 broadcasting it.  What are you reading that didn't carry it?
2004/4/29 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:13453 Activity:insanely high Edit_by:auto
4/28    Since when does an act of Congress trump a Constitutional Amendment?
        How does giving the President War Powers somehow negate the Sixth
        http://csua.org/u/742 (Bill of Rights, in case you need a refresher.)
        \_ That's your big gripe?  I'm more concerned with the 16th and the
           abuse which created our socialist system.
           \_ Impressive.  In two lines, you changed the subject from the
              president and congress subverting the constitution to how the
              constitution itself infringes on your freedoms.  I give 9/10.
           \_ Nice non sequiteur.  Go back to http://freerepublic.com.
              \_ It is completely on topic.  Just because my sub-topic was
                 more interesting and has a greater effect on the people of
                 this country is no reason to get jealous.
                 \_ bad troll, no cookie.
                    \_ clueless child, see discussion below that you're
                       incapable of understanding.
           \_ The President is being given the right to jail anyone who
              disagrees with him without a trial, and the press is being
              warned not to criticize the Administration, but you think
              Income Tax and socialism are the real evils?  Well, hold on to
              your hat, liebchen, because Socialism and Fascism are about to
              unite in a big way here.
              \_ Yes, income tax was the beginning of training people that the
                 Federal Government was Big Daddy and we all had to do what
                 Daddy says and Daddy will take care of us.  If it wasn't for
                 generations of brainwashing your issue wouldn't exist because
                 no one in government would even dare propose such a thing. But
                 now that everyone is properly trained and/or cowed by the
                 truly enormous power of the FG through illegal taxation, the
                 things you're seeing now are easily swallowed by an ill
                 educated, mindless, government created socialist system.  You
                 sound as though you think we were free until after 9/11.  We
                 haven't been free since before your grand father was born.
                 \_ So tell us how YOU would have paid for WWI.  We're waiting.
                    \_ why are you letting this guy change the subject, which
                       is Bush's abuse of executive power, and the Supreme
                       Court's acceptance of that abuse?
                 \_ Okay, cool, I'll grant you your point.  Now, before we
                    succumb more inextricably to the twin evils of socialism
                    fascism, let's pool our resources to prevent the Pres.
                    being granted the ability to rescind the 6th Amendment,
                    and limit Congress' ability to grant him that power.
                 \_ The next time you have a medical problem, you can curse
                    socialism all the way to the hospital because you used
                    a government funded 911 service.  Do wacko libertarians
                    really want to go back to an era of no government services?
                    You do know that a lot of the infrastructure you depend on
                    is built and maintained by the government, right?
                    \_ obThePrivateSectorCouldDoItBetter
                 \_ The Rich have always been free. The poor have always
                    been in chains.
        \_ It's quite simple, really.  If you haven't been charged with a crime
           the sixth amendmant doesn't apply.  If you're in Guantanamo, you're
           simply suspected of being a prisoner of war.  Since they're being
           held by the military in time of war, the protections of the fifth
           amendmant don't apply.  You simply don't appreciate the lengths this
           administration is willing to go to to protect your freedom.
           \_ Ignorance is Strength!
2004/4/29 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:13449 Activity:insanely high
4/29  http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
      I was pro to ambivalent on the death penalty. I happened
      across the link below and it makes a compelling argument against
      it. Thought I should share. -saarp
        \_ Measuring frequencies does not tell you cause and effect.  I have
           pointed this out many times before. -- ilyas
         \_ I understand. However it seems like they have noticed this
            same correlation in many places. Overall, I don't think you
            can discount their point. -saarp
           \_ I understand. However it seems like they have noticed this same
              correlation in many places. Overall, I don't think you can
               that death penalty does not cause higher crime rates. -- ilyas
              discount their point. -saarp
      \_ This does not convince me. There are people in this world who
         deserves the death penalty and nothing less.
                \_ Sure I can.  I don't accept these as evidence that death
                   penalty is not a crime deterrent, because these do not show
                   that death penalty does not cause higher crime rates.  In
                   fact, it seems quite intuitive that death penalty WOULD
                   serve as a deterrent, which is all the more reason to look
                   very carefully at how this data could come to be. -- ilyas
                   \_ The burden of proof is on those who want to execute
                      people. Your intuition is irrelevant, especially since
                      it is contradicted by all kinds of criminology research
                      about why people do or do not observe the laws (not
                      just relating to the death penalty).
                      \_ The burden of proof is on those who want to change
                         an existing law.  You are implying that killing people
                         is always wrong, which is not a self-evident truth.
                         If you have some relevant research to share about
                         why death penalty is in fact not a cause for lower
                         crime rates, please do speak up, post links, etc.
                         Saarp's links are interesting, but don't qualify for
                         reasons I stated already.
                           -- ilyas
                         \_ That's funny.  I'd have thought the burden of
                            proof would be on those who want to kill people.
                            \_ If you feel any killing is wrong, then you can
                               feel this way without contradiction.  Otherwise
                               no, because killing in self-defense, for
                               instance, may be ok.
                        \_ The url that started this whole thread is on
                           precisely this issue. Maybe you should read it.
                           And I find it particularly mystifying that someone
                           who purports to believe in small government would
                           support such an expensive (not to mention morally
                           bankrupt) policy, with no evidence that it is
                           effective, just because it happens to be
                           "existing law."
                           \_ I believe in Old Testament morality, for things
                              like murder, rape of children, and so on.
                              It is true that the death penalty introduces a
                              dilemma alluded to below regarding innocents
                              dying vs guilty going free.  Every law student is
                              quite familiar with it.  I don't have a
                              satisfying argument to it, nor does anyone else.
                              If you believe no murderer should die for his
                              crimes, I claim your belief is immoral.  If you
                              disagree, then we have a morality clash, and in
                              a democracy it is resolved by the majority.
                              If you don't like democracy, like me, help me
                              think of something better, otherwise buck up and
                              live with it.  Regarding my libertarianism, I
                              don't think running prisons really needs to be
                              as expensive as it is.  Also, unlike anarchists,
                              I am prepared to spend money to maintain human
                              \_ So on the question of evidence, you reject
                                 copious evidence that the death penalty does
                                 not act as a deterrent because it is not 100%
                                 solid proof, while offering absolutely no
                                 evidence of the contrary. And then you use the
                                 "we're a democracy, so the majority rule"
                                 cop out, which could just as easily be used
                                 to avoid a rational debate of what is sensible
                                 public policy on any other issue as well. I'll
                                 have to remember that one.
                              rights, including enforcement.  -- ilyas
                              \_ uh, old testament morality? you think we need
                                 stoning? how about splatting goat blood around
                                 and making pleasing barbequeues for the Lord?
                   \_ If executions were held publicly, I could buy that
                      the death penalty would seem quite intuitively to be
                      a deterrent.  This is not the case at the moment.
                      \_ People aren't children.  You don't need to see
                         something in front of your nose for it to be a
                         deterrent. -- ilyas
        \_ Holy shit its saarp back from the dead!!!!111!
           \_ Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. -saarp
        \_ Can someone give me a link to the information on how it's more
           expensive to execute a prisoner than to keep them for 60 years?
           \_ Keeping a prisoner is a small incremental cost added on to a
              prison you already are running.  Death penalty cases require
              tons of extra police and legal work.
        \_ It costs about $20k/year per prisoner in a non-death row situation
           in CA.  I'm guessing it costs more to hold someone on death row
           but probably not too much more.  If some clown is in prison for
           50 years, thats 1 million bucks.  It's likely that after multiple
           appeals, court costs, etc, that executing someone is more costly.
           However, I don't think justice should be based on raw bean counting.
           If society has determined that death is the right punishment for
           some crime *and* the trial, etc, was fair/just, then execution is
           the correct punishment IMHO even if the raw dollar value cost is
           higher to do so.
           \_ I agree completely!!
           \_ what do you say to the dozens of people for whom society
              determined that "death is the right punishment," who later
              were released from death row when they turned out to be
              \_ No system is perfect.
                 \_ Exactly, and a system where that imperfection results in
                    innocent people being murdered should be avoided.
              innocent?  -tom
           \_ I do think that some people need to be put down like mad dogs.
              I just don't have faith in the system as it stands to try each
              case fairly and with the greatest possible scrutiny.  It would
              help if the prosecution could go for the death penalty but then
              have that turned down in favor of life w/o parole if the jury
              so decided.
           \_ I don't care that much about people who actually commited the
              crimes they were convicted of.  Executing murderers does not
              bother me or give me the warm fuzzies.  The problem is that there
              is no way to make sure the person you're executing is actually
              guilty, so it's inevitable you will execute innocent people.  To
              me, that is much worse, as it is a premeditated, state-sanctioned
              murder.  I think it's much better to let a thousand murderers
              escape execution than for the state to murder one innocent
              person. - dgies
              \_ I see your point. To me, the need of the many
                 outweighs the needs of the few/one. To save the 1 that
                 may be wrongly executed, we run the risk of letting free
                 hundreds of committed murders who will not hesitate to
                 go out and murder more innocent lives. What do you say
                 to those people who will be killed by those convicted
                 murderers? Where's their justice? You can say they will
                 never get out, just like I can say we will never make a
                 \_ Where did I say let them out?  They should be sentenced to
                    life in prison.  If they're guilty, they can rot there.  If
                    they're innocent, they can work to exhonorate themselves
                    and in any case, jailing an innocent person is better than
                    killing them. -dgies
                    \_ dgies, you just fell for a classic straw man argument.
                       \_ Actually, he did a fine job of recognizing it and
                          disarming it.
                       \_ I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he might
                          have misread 'escape execution' as me saying let them
                          out. -dgies
                       \_ How about this, if someone tries to kill
                          you, and you kill him in self defense, it's
                          considered ok. But, if the person succeeds in
                          killing you, then too bad, even in the worst
                          scenario, he will still be able to eat, breath,
                          walk, and exercise, for the rest of his long
                          life while you decay into nothingness?
                          \_ That's right, there are no justice for
                          those who are dead. We don't care about
                          them. It's a tough world out there, you
                          shouldn't get yourself killed in the first
                          place. And you shouldn't trust the state to
                          do justice for you either. Don't get
                          yourself killed.
        \_ I haven't read the link but even I'm moving away from
           pro-death-penalty.  The three reasons I am/was for it are:
           1) Convict can't escape/be released from prison if he's dead
           2) Family doesn't have to deal with media interviews in prison with
           the convice if he's dead.
           3) Prosecutors can get more info from defendant on a plea bargain
           from death penalty to life in prison.
           The poster-child for #1 is Robert Lee Massie.  VH1's music behind
           bars was part of #2, and there are various examples for #3.
           However, with "life without parole" as an option, I can't really be
           behind the death penalty anymore (with the exception for
           terrorists, oh and mass murderers).  -emarkp
           \_ Terrorists?  What makes them special?
           \_ So how do we judge who to apply the death penalty to?
              You are saying we abandon death penalty, except when we are
              really pissed about someone, we make an exception. This is
              not law, its lawlessness. If you support this, then you
              actually do support the death penalty.
              \_ Yeah, you're right.  I guess I still support it. -emarkp
           \_ I used to be 100% anti-death penalty, but I have decided
              that in extreme cases where the very existence of the person
              threatens civil order, I am for it. Saddam Hussein being a good
              example. Pol Pot, if he had been captured alive would have
              been another. I admire the Peruvians for not executing Guzman,
              but I think they should have. -anon motd liberal
              \_ Liberals are scary. -- ilyas
                    TO SOVIET RUSSIA! FLEE, DOGGY, FLEE!
              \_ How does Saddam's existence threaten Civil Order? That's a
                 pretty tenuous contention.
                 \_ Too many people want to kill him.
                 \_ I think he was talking about GWB
                    \_ I think it's a good policy. ML King threatened civil
                       order. So does Kerry, in a way. I think things would
                       be much more orderly under fascism.
2004/4/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:13217 Activity:nil
4/15    Why are conservatives so hostile to Open Source software?
        \_ You mean conservatives like this?
           \_ But Eric Raymond is an idiot.  He doesn't count.
              \_ "From age twelve I always wanted to be a Heinlein
                  character when I grew up."
           \_ Isn't ESR a libertarian?
        \_ Because they hate freedom.
        \_ Why do liberals have to make up lies about conservitives to make
           themselves seem reasonable by comparison?
           \_ Why do conservatives have to impugn the patriotism of those who
              disagree with them?  (See "Why do you hate America")
           \_ Why can't conservatives spell "conservative?"
           \_ http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/05/1081017093699.html
              Both the IPI and the Alexis de Toqueville institute have
                                             \_ Tocqueville
                                                \_ jackass   <----------\
                                                   \_ You seem torqued. |
              now denounced open source.
              \_ Why? Because there's no money in it? Because it's "communist"?
                 \_ Open source == (UNIX) rw-rw-rw- == 666 == numba da beast!
                    \_ But open-source binaries are code 555
                       \_ Open source software starts as code. Like marijuana,
                          it soon leads to voting Democratic, gay marriage,
                          and betraying America to communis...Islamic fanatics.
                          \_ Not to mention commie mutant tratiors.  They
                             endanger the future of Alpha Complex.
                             \_ If the comuputer really is your friend, you'd
                                use MicroSoft. It's what the computer ask for
                                by name!
        \_ Because Jesus hates it.
        \_ Because it's unpatriotic.
2004/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29887 Activity:nil
3/29    Take a political compass test. Also here's where those democratic
        primary guys fell on their scale:
        Based on that scale, China does fall closest to fascism, since it's
        authoritarian but economically going towards center-right.
        \_ Check out the wording on those questions.  Most impressive.
             -- ilyas
           \_ Well, they also have a FAQ. I think it placed me correctly
              (slightly left and libertarian).
              \_ "Why are you throwing tomatoes at yourself?"  Let's look at
                 this gem of a 'proposition' as they call it:
                 "Many personal fortunes are made by people who simply
                 manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society."
                 Now, let's say I put in 'disagree.'  How will they read this?
                 Will they read it as "I think many personal fortunes are NOT
                 made by people like that" ... OR "Manipulating money
                 contributes something (loans provide value)".  The question
                 is so loaded and faulty that any possible response will likely
                 be incorrectly interpreted.  Their test, btw, incorrectly
                 placed me as basically a moderate republican, which I am
                 certainly not. -- ilyas
                 \_ Right, well, I would hope that the intent of that question
                    would be a judge on economic left-rightedness, where
                    agreement implies that some control should be put on these
                    useless capitalists. Based on their rationale I don't think
                    it has to be flawed, but it obviously can't be perfect and
                    they likely have a bias anyway.
                    \_ Except this question does not judge any such thing.
                       I could be a card-carrying liberal and still believe
                       most personal fortunes are not made by manipulation
                       of money (in fact, I don't have handy statistics on
                       this matter).  The question is stupid, as is the entire
                       test.  You have to phrase things a lot more carefully
                       and 'wordily'. -- ilyas
                       \_ it didn't say "most" it said "many". Although many is
                          a relative term. Anyway though I agree, their agenda
                          appears to be to have right wingers take the test and
                          discover they're somehow actually lefties. But the
                          background stuff surrounding it seems sound. And the
                          bias they do have could be justified if it tests
                          discrepancies between what someone thinks they think
                          and what they actually think, if they haven't thought
                          about it much already. (notions of pol. correctness)
                          \_ See, you don't understand the nature of my
                             objection.  A test like this only works when a
                             given response to a question actually
                             differentiates political views.  I gave an example
                             where the same response could be given by both
                             a fiscal liberal and a fiscal conservative.
                             Anyways, it's late, and I am tired of explaining
                             the same thing three different ways.  If you think
                             it's a good test, that's great. -- ilyas
                             \_ well you're basically quibbling with the word
                                "many" in that example. anyway, fine, motd
                                censor will clean this up before long, g'nite.
2004/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12923 Activity:nil
3/29    http://www.fundrace.org/moneyindex.html
        This speaks for itself.
        \_ The little know issue of party fundraising is that the Reps.
           traditionally receive small donations from a large number of
           contributors. Dems on the other hand receive large donations
           from two primary groups - trial lawyers and unions.
2004/3/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12874 Activity:nil
3/26    Gibson's passion redeemed a double murderer.  Redeem yourself before
        it's too late.  http://csua.org/u/6ly
        \_ You know, evangelizing works so much better when it's subtle and
           implicit, don't you think?  -- ilyas
           \_ There's nothing sutble about putting the fear of God in people.
              \_ I don't think you understand people very well. -- ilyas
           \_ It's easier when it's mandated by the government
2004/3/25-26 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12867 Activity:high
3/25    Read this, you liberals, about the Chrisian way of business management
        \_ Doesn't seem very christian to me.  The corporate equivalent of an
        \_ Doesn't seem very christian to me.
2004/3/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12864 Activity:moderate
3/25    Fetus now protected (yahoo news) -- http://tinyurl.com/34qgd
        When will it be a federal crime to harm our sperms?
        \_ Hmm, "from my cold dead fingers" seems just as appropriate.
        \_ it already is, if you kick someone in the nuts and
        make him infertile,you'll pay bigtime
        \_ Here is a point with same amplitude but opposite sign:
           (A short story where Congress decided human beings acquire a soul
            and thus human rights at age 12, when they can begin to do
            simple algebra).  Incidentally, I really resent those anti-abortion
            idiots who bring really large, really graphic posters to campus.
            You know, a place where lots of little kids come on a regular
            basis.  Really pisses me off.  -- ilyas
        \_ Obligatory but must be done:
           There are Jews in the world/There are Buddhists/There are Hindus
           and Mormons, and then/There are those that follow Mohammed, but/
           I've never been one of them/I'm a Roman Catholic/And have been
           since before I was born/And the one thing they say about Catholics
           is/They'll take you as soon as you're warm/You don't have to be a
           six-footer/You don't have to have a great brain/You don't have to
           have any clothes on. You're/A Catholic the moment Dad came,Because/
           Every sperm is sacred.
           Every sperm is great.
           If a sperm is wasted,
           God gets quite irate. (repeat x2)
        \_ Maybe when it becomes popular to punch yourself in the balls
           really hard?  It's kinda liek Darwinic suicide I guess...
            simple algebra).  -- ilyas
        \_ It has been a crime to kill an unborn child for a long time.  You
           may have noticed (or not) that Scott Peterson is being charged
           with killing his unborn son.  That's not the first time.  Sperm
           isn't life and you know it.  Don't get all tinfoil hat and red
           herring on the motd.
           \_ Isn't that the whole point of the motd?
           \_ I don't know about you, but *my* sperms got little tails that
              they wiggle as they swim upstream and overcome adversities.
              If they are not alive, I don't know what's alive.
              \_ enough trolling from you
           \_ The crime with the unborn child is against the mother, who
              wanted the child. Not against the fetus.
2004/3/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics] UID:12823 Activity:nil
3/23    How come MS can get away with violating NDA and industrial espionage?
        \_ They're just innovating.  STFU.
        \_ We don't know.  IBM was facing anti-trust charges when it controled
           40% of the mainframe market in the 1980s.  For some reason,
           the government never really bother with Microsoft eventhough it
           controls 95% of the desktop market, and repeatly using its market
           dominance to stiffle competition.
           \_ Why do you hate capitalism?  Microsoft should only be restrained
              by market forces.
              \_ because true hands off capitalism generally leads to monopoly.
                 Look at the railroad monopolies of the mid-late 1800s for
                 examples of what unrestrained capitalism leads to.
                 \_ You've just been trolled
                    \_ BA BAM!
              \_ if you got a chance, read Adam Smith and various classic
                 text on capitalism.  You may find that "perfect competition"
                 is the fundamental building block of working capitalism.
                 Those who advocate competition are actually those who
                 prefer capitalism.
2004/3/23 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12816 Activity:high
3/23    True Southern Comedy of the Day:
        McCallister, Oklahoma: The presiding judge in the Oklahoma trial
        against Terry Nichols (already serving a life sentence on Federal
        charges) stormed onto the bench an hour late yesterday and berated
        the prosecution because 3 of the jurors were related to one of the
        prosecutors.  Said a representative for the prosecution, "dang, I
        s'pose you'd like to try'n find 12 people in Oklahoma that warn't
        relations?"     (--via NPR)
        \_ McNichols?
           \_ I forgot to celebrate St Patrick's day and I'm compensating.
           \_ He's being brought to McJustice
        \_ What a knee slapper!  Those hicks in flyover country sure do make
           great targets for vicious humor!  Thank g-d they're all white
           because talking like that about anyone else would be racist!
           \_ How is this racist?  It's just a judge making fun of people
              in Oklahoma.
              \_ 1) it wasn't the judge, 2) it was npr, 3) i question if it
                 happened at all or was taken out of context.  It's just more
                 of npr's holier than thou bullshit.
                 \_ Actually, the judge stormed up to the bench and berated
                    the prosecution for this.  The prosecution did not make
                    the aformentioned remark concerning relations.  Neither
                    did NPR. All dubious comments were added by the op for
                    questionable humorous effect.
                    \_ Ok, so the racism is home grown on the motd.  Thanks
                       for clarifying that.  I wasn't able to find it on the
                       \_ Anytime.  Gotta ask, though: have you ever really
                          listened to NPR?  If you have, where do you get the
                          idea that they would even broadcast something like
           \_ I don't think it's racist to make fun of your own race.  Since
              whites are the majority, anonymous posts can be assumed to be
              white people unless there is evidence to the contrary.  I'm not
              offended by that joke, but if it was written by a non-white I
              might be a little offended. --Whitey
              \_ "White" is too broad. So many people count as whites, from
                 nordics to mediterranean people to slavs and arabs and jews.
                 Clearly these groups don't all identify with each other.
                 But regardless of race, we can all make fun of poor rural
              \_ At Berkeley, especially in CS, you can assume it was written
                 by an Asian and in any event it is *not* okay to make racist
                 remarks about *anyone*.  And in this case, even if it was a
                 white on white attack, it is still an insult to people in the
                 mid-west because "we're better than they are, they're just a
                 bunch of racist white ignorant inbred christians!" which is
                 exactly the sort of label that no one else would or should
                 have to tolerate or accept.  If blacks were 51% of the
                 population would you think calling them all niggers was ok?
                 I suspect not.
                 \_ I didn't say it's OK to make fun of the majority.  I said
                    it's OK to make fun of your own race, and that when
                    someone's race is unknown, it's reasonable to assume they
                    belong to the majority. --Whitey
                    \_ That's fine.  The assumption here should still be
                       Asian and making fun of your own race is not ok because
                       it only furthers stereotypes and hurts not only your
                       race (stupid word but I'll go with it) but people of
                       other races by reinforcing their ignorance as well.
                 \_ I gather that you are an asian, but let me tell you there
                    are plenty of whites in CS and you refuse to notice.
                    \_ It's simple math.  He said whites are a majority and
                       therefore (his logic) it is ok to say hateful things
                       about whites.  I've already responded to the second part
                       about all racism=bad.  Here's the math part: whites are
                       not the majority.  Asians are.  Thus his assumption that
                       a white was writing the post based solely on the numbers
                       is incorrect.  Anyway, why the hell do I have to tell
                       *anyone* from Berkeley that racism is bad?  There is no
                       such thing as *good* racism.  Why the heavy handed
                       insistence that some kinds of racism are ok for various
                       random 'reasons'?  Go find something that is actually
                       funny without abusing someone for merely being different
                       from you.
2004/3/22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29876 Activity:nil
3/22    Why do the Republicans take so much money from the dirty, nasty
        trial lawyers? Why does the motd censor keep deleting this, but
        leaving the pro-Bush posts?
        \_ Dem Constituency: Unions and trial lawyers
           Rep ":  business
           \_ SKY GREEN! SEA YELLOW!
              \_ Soon, baby.
2004/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12755 Activity:high
3/19    Journalistic fraud that makes Jason Blair look honest.
        \_ He's a conservative, so it doesn't matter. It is only when
           the liberal media fakes stories that it is big news.
           \_ WTF?  String this guy up.  And any reporter who makes things up.
              You're an idiot if you think people en masse ignore fabrications
              because of ideology. - a conservative
              \_ Let's see if this becomes a big story, like the Jason
                 Blair thing. I predict that it will not.
                 \_ Um, I know it will not.  However, that's because a) it was
                    the NY F'ing Times, considered the standard for
                    journalistic accuracy, and b) it was the first big story
                    about journalistic fraud--first is always biggest.
           \_ reporters lie all the time, to promote their career, ego, etc.
              Journalists are scumbags just like lawyers.
        \_ Is he Jewish? http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-19-jerusalem_x.htm
           \_ What difference does it make?
              \_ Well it might affect what he was thinking, like was he just
                 cynically latching onto any sensationalism or did he have
                 some other motivations.
2004/3/18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12740 Activity:low
3/18    Here's one we can probably all agree is bad.  Labour government in UK
        wants to bill wrongfully accused criminals for time spent in prison:
        \_ I think Terry Gilliam already thought of that one.  In "Brazil"
           the bill was for "Information Retrieval Charges."  In the director's
           cut he has to negotiate a loan to pay for his own torture.  -brain
        \_ It's worse than that-- it looks like they've actually sent the bills
           out and expect payment, and they're defending themselves in some
           sort of class action suit about the matter.
        \_ Still better than making your family pay for the bullet that
           executes you.
           \_ Um, what the hell are you talking about?
                \_ It's a china reference
        \_ Sounds like a great idea if the person can countersue for false
           imprisonment damages.  Of course, that will wipe out every job
           except lawyers and judges...
           \_ If you read the article, they pay for false imprisonment, but it
              is paid in installments.  The "defered living expenses" are due
              up front, and the gov't charges a whopping 23% interest.
              \_ That 23% interest is on the advanced payment of the
                 settlement, not the deferred living expenses.
        \_ Come now, they were arrested, weren't they?  They must have been
           guilty of something.  Only serves them right to pay for it.
           \_ And if it weren't for those damn Democratic trial lawyers,
              the police could have metered out the justice they deserved.
                                    \_ ITYM "meted"
              I hate those Democratic trial lawyers. Why should criminals
              have any rights anyway? Just let the police shoot them all.
        \_ Convicted criminals have damaged society.  They owe society a debt.
           Making them pay for part of the debt in cash restitution isn't at
           all shocking.  There are plenty of cases all over the world both
           modern and historic where someone gets jail time plus a fine.  Big
           deal.  boo hoo.
           \_ The only debt I can see that the criminal owes society is the
              overhead for his trial and incarceration.  The criminal owes
              _the victim_.  And yes, I think it's perfectly ok to make
              the criminal pay for his execution and grave.  Who else should
              pay for it?  -- ilyas
                \_ No, they have a debt to society as a whole as well as the
                   victim because their trial, police, prisons, and the
                   general drag on society criminals cause through fear,
                   waste, and inefficiencies costs all of us every day.  I
                   would think a good libertarian could see that.
                   \_ Yes... a good libertarian did.  He called it 'overhead,'
                      I think.  Although this 'drag' on society you speak of
                      is getting a little too abstract for me.  You charge
                      people for specific things they did wrong. -- ilyas
                \_ I know you're intentionally being inflammatory
                   and retarded but the people in jail in the original
                   article were later declared innocents by the courts.
                   the british mps are just trying to be as mean as possible
                   to potential IRA supporters, they weren't going to
                   get their votes anyway.
                   \_ I don't think I am being either.  The poster below is
                      right, I am not really talking about this particular case.
                      I am addressing the common misconception that (actual)
                      criminals owe a 'debt to society.'  I think that's
                      silly.  -- ilyas
                      \_ I guess they would in crimes that aren't against some
                         particular person, like espionage, traffic violations,
                         tax evasion, gambling, prostitution, possession of
                         illegal firearms, etc.
                         \_ That's true.  -- ilyas
                         \_ No, even crimes against individuals cost us all.
                            The simplest example: a criminal murders someone.
                            Suing the criminal for damages or even executing
                            them will not bring that person back and the rest
                            of us have lost out on the benefits of having that
                            person here.  A children may have lost a parent,
                            fellow co-workers may have to work harder, some
                            brilliant invention may not be made, and their
                            last purchase is their own coffin from their
                            estate.  Crime hurts society.  Criminals owe all
                            of us for their crimes.
              \_ Why don't you guys start your own thread if you want to talk
                 about this subject?  The URL was about the *wrongfully
                 \_ What are you, the thread police? -- ilyas
                    \_ Citizen, the computer is your friend.  The computer
                       tells you what to do.  Disobeying the computer is
                       evidence of communism and treason.  Are you a
                       communist traitor?
                 \_ In Soviet Russia, topic changes YOU!
          \_ OP was talking about the wrongfully accused.  How'd you come up
             with this response to that?
          \_ OP was talking about the wrongfully accused.  How'd you come up with
                     this response to that?
                   \_ GARRIAGE!
             \_ What are you smoking? The wrongfully accused owes society
                even more!
                \_ Easily.  It's the motd.  I didn't like his topic so I'm
                   making my own.
2004/3/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12689 Activity:nil
3/15    Computer specialists will be drafted first:
        \_ old news and what's wrong with serving your country again?
2004/3/9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12578 Activity:low
3/8     Would someone be willing to take delivery of a handgun for me in
        the Bay Area in the next 2 months?  It's a gift from a friend in
        Oregon, which I would like to take over to Switzerland the next
        time I'm in the US (May-ish.)  He can't meet me in person.  I can
        supply any needed papers.  -John
        \_ Which handgun?  (I am not in BA, or I d take it) -- ilyas
        \_ Can you supply a good lawyer, too?
        \_ can i use it on Highway 580?
        \_ Just sort of curious, John, why're you asking in the motd rather
           than approaching some friends you consider trustworthy directly?
        \_ Assuming you go through with this, it is illegal and considered
           a federal crime. To do this right, your friend needs to transfer
           ownership using someone with a FFL. Any reputable gun store will
           do this, for a small fee, and even hold it in storage, for another
           small fee. Transferring the gun out of country is another whole
           mess of paperwork.
           \_ You have to forgive John.  Living in oppressed Europe for so long,
              he must have forgotten how easy it is to commit a federal crime
              here in the Land of the Free.  -- ilyas
              \_ Was he thinking of wearing a head scarf, too?
              \_ In Switzerland, men are REQUIRED to keep an arsenal in their
                 home as they are citizen military reservists, and could be
                 called up in time of need.
                 \_ Because so many Italians and Germans will be invading for
                    the chocolate and watches?  Actually, it won't be the
                    Germans.  They already bought their way in with blood
              \_ As if Europe is a haven of freedom and goodness.  Whatever.
                 \_ I think you are missing the point.
                    \_ I don't think there was a meaningful point to begin with.
                    \_ What point?  It was standard mindless America bashing.
2004/3/8 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12557 Activity:high
3/7     Orange gives away free bike with cell phone contract in
        http://snipurl.com/4yfp [gizmodo.com]
        \_ Cool, how many of us are in the netherlands?
           \_ perhaps I should have changed the description to:
              "be jealous of people in the netherlands:"   -op
              \_ right. in america, i'm what you call a "liberal," but
                 if i had to live in the fucking netherlands i'd turn into a
                 raving freeper in about a week.  they have a 70% income
                 tax in the higher tax brackets, most housing is owned by
                 the government, and the crime is so bad in some parts of
                 rotterdam and amsterdam that the cops just leave at night
                 for their own safety.  fuck the netherlands.  i'll buy my own
                 cellphone contract, bycicle, car and maybe a boat with the
                 cellphone contract, bicycle, car and maybe a boat with the
                 money i save by not paying their income taxes.
                 \_ Where is crime bad in Amsterdam? I bet the worst
                    neighborhoods there are safer than most of America.
                    You are wrong about the housing, too. Most Dutch own
                    their own house. And the top rate in the Netherlands
                    is 60%, not 70%. The Economist Intelligence Unit
                    called The Netherland the best place in the world
                    to do business last year. In short, everything you
                    stated about The Netherlands is wrong.
                    \_ Most of America is incredibly safe.  Our crime is very
                       highly concentrated in high density urban areas.  We
                       used to call them slums or ghettos.  The top bracket
                       percent isn't as important as how much money it takes to
                       get to that bracket.  If 95% of the population is paying
                       over 30% and most of those hit the 60-70% range, thats
                       truly horrible.  If only 1-2% hits the 30% and very few
                       of those hit the 60-70% mark then it's a lot less than
                       in the US.  Let's get some facts before declaring
                       either way.  This is to the parent and grandparent of
                       my post.
                    \_ Actually, crime has been getting pretty bad in the past
                       decade ever since the easter bloc countries joined
                       the EU. Violent crime isn't as bad as it is in the
                       US, but property crime is pretty bad. Holland is also
                       very socialistic and there are pretty heavy taxes
                       levied on everything (including watching TV). As a
                       result the government has gotten progressively
                       poorer since the early 80's. And yes, I was born
                       and raised there.
                       \_ Violent crime is worse than before, but still better
                          than any American city, certainly not so unsafe
                          that police are unwilling to patrol it. I think
                          this guy is a freeper pretending to be a liberal.
                           \_You may be right about this guy being a freeper.
                             Your "any american city" comment is ridiculous.
                             There are plenty of US cities that have almost
                             NO violent crime.  Just not big ones.
                             \_ Depends on how you define "city" I guess.
                                I do not consider the likes of Sunnyvale
                                a city. Neither does the BBC:
        \_ But they don't say anything about the bike or cellphone.  Would you
           want it if the phone and bike both sucked?  I know the bluetooth
           charger/cradle is cool, but why not just give people a kit to strap
           on to their existing bike?
           \_ yeah, that's what I need.  Some dweeb on a bike yapping away
              on his cell phone instead of watching where's he going.
              \_ Getting hit by an idiot on a bike is going to be about as
                 painful as being in a car getting hit by an idiot in another
                 car.  But you won't have to get your car repaired.
                 \_ Are you kidding?  At minimum you're looking at a good
                    dent and several ugly scratches.  And woe to the
                    pedestrian run over by a cell-phone distracted bicyclist..
2004/2/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12386 Activity:nil
2/23    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/robot.html?tw=wn_tophead_8
        Wired has a ling (5 pages) article on the Grand Challenge
2004/2/20 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Tax] UID:12320 Activity:low
2/20    http://www.consumerfreedom.com/petaPetition.cfm
        \_ interesting, there are lots of articles about the total
           slime (but probably Hero Of The Revolution to a strict
           100 percent Let Corporations Do Whatever The Fuck They
           Want In All Case, Common Sense Be Damned You Smelly
           Socialist Hippie free market guy) who runs the network
           of shadowy tax free industry lobbyist front groups
           behind http://consumerfreedom.com and other sites, Rick Berman,
           NO NOT THE STAR TREK GUY, ok let's begin:
           So I find it fascinating that this guy, who is VERY well
           paid, in millions per year, to head a trio of non profits,
           that are directly funded by Phillip Morris, to cry
           and whine about the funding of PETA.   Give me a break.
           The deeper argument here is not at all about PETA,
           but why don't assholes like Rick Berman get pancreatic
           cancer, the world would be much better off.
           \_ also I bet Rick Berman was the inspiration for
              a lot of the really funny book "Thank You For Smoking"
           \_ oooh, you're so sexy when you wear your tinfoil hat and use
              "shadowy" to describe someone that any ninny like you can
              find out everything on using google.  sheesh.  even if berman
              is a total asshole and is better off dead that doesn't mean
              peta is anything but a bunch of cocksuckers and better off
              dead either.
          \_ kinney? is that you?
        \_ This petition is idiotic.  First they say PETA is engaged
           in all sorts of nevarious criminal activity, which may well be
           true, but then they say that this means that they shouldn't be
           tax exempt as a non-profit, which is what their petition if for.
           That's just dumb.  If they're criminals, call for them to be
           investigated as such, but unless they're atually in danger of turning
           into a for-profit corporation, this is unfounded.  When a cult
           religion decides to go nuts and kill a bunch of people, we don't
           go round saying they're not really a religion and take away their
           non profit status, we convict the leaders of crimes.
                \_ you know all those urls I posted detailing the background
                   of the slimebags behind http://consumerfreedom.com, they weren't
                   that foaming at the mouth and were actually quite well thought
                   out, i think it's important to understand the context of
                   who writes this crap, i hate you selective motd censor.
                                           \- your petition has been heard.
           \_ I do not think you understand how the legal system operates
              in this or other law based country, and you are mixing
              sentiments, which I share, with legal tactics.  You go after
              the bad guys with EVERY legal arsonal.  Like you attack
              terrorists on financial front as well as military front
              (and yes if terrorists are using non-profit foundations then
               their tax-exmpt status should be revoked - that will cripple
               them faster).
               \_ Ok, mister legal scholar.  Name one case where this
                  "legal tactic" was effective.
                  \_ There are legion.  Some of the mafia cases were cracked
                     first with an IRS violation.  Illegal income are rarely
                     reported to IRS.  Usually it is easier to prove that you
                     failed to report an income than to prove that income comes
                     from murderous activities.  I can't recall any precedent
                     involving non-profit but it would be in the same vein.
                  \_ Which mobster was it that went down on a single IRS
                     conviction for failure to fully report his income yet got
                     away with untold numbers of other crimes including murder?
                     Was it Capone?
        \_ PETA is cool. It's Malthusianism taken to it's logical
           extremist conclusion. I wonder if people who are activily
           involved in PETA are clinically insane.
           \_ I've known some PETA people and they all seemed sane enough
              to me. One of them is now wanted by the FBI for bombing some
              animal research labs, though. Another one is a lawyer
              for Wilson and Sansini now though, so whattya know.
              \_ Now aren't you morally obliged to turn that bomber in?
                 \_ this is a different poster, but no one has seen
                    the guy in months, either in real life or online.
                    critical path was just full of freaks!
        \_ people eat tasty animals.
           \_ Anyone rememeber back in the day when http://peta.org was registered by
              the group People Eating Tasty Animals?  Probably back in 1997...
              \_ Yeah, those were the days, I remember them fondly.  WTF?!
                 Who cares who owned which random fuck domain 7 years ago?
        \_ I am a fruitarian and I believe vegetables have a life force
        and the peta people are killing innocents.. PETOV
              \- the nature conservancy as also been corrupted by liberal
                 hypocrites ...
                 [sovereignty.net might be a whacko organization but much
                 of this was unearthed [NPI] by the washinton post ...
                 i couldnt find the story in their "deep web"]. --psb
        \_ Soylent Green Fuel and Soylent Green Battery.
        \_ Meat is murder!  Salad is slaughter!  Jainism or bust!
2004/2/6 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12120 Activity:nil
2/5     So what's up with this Simon guy on American Idol? I mean, is he
        actually someone famous like Paula Abdul? Does he actually sing?
        \_ simon and randy are both talent scouts. they make a living
           searching for talent for record labels and signing them, and
           they both have a great track record.
                \_ I'd love to see Simon sing and have someone like him
                   critique his looks/voice/moves
                   \_ Pointless.  That's like saying you'd love to see Judge
                      Ito on trial for murder.  Ito is an idiot but we know
                      he didn't kill anyone's wife or bloody his white SUV.
2004/2/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12075 Activity:high
2/2     67 Kurds blown up on Sunday, 265+ injured, not much coverage.
        \_ were any of them American?
           \_ they supported Americans
              \_ That's not relevant
                 \_ W00t!
        \_ But look at Janet Jackson's tits! Woot!
           \_ That nipple... piercing(?) is disturbing.
              \_ it wasn't pierced.  just a cosmetic add-on for the show.
        \_ It happened on Sunday.  Non-football discussion is unpatriotic.
        \_ it was front page news, what more do you want?
           \_ today, not on washingtonpost or http://cnn.com.  i wonder how many
              americans know about it.  not much coverage.
              \_ disturbing
              \_ They know that people blowing up in Iraq bores America now.
                 They don't even really get excited about the weekly troop
                 deaths either.
                 \_ only because they are not doing their job.  get some
                    nice photos with lots of blood and carnage and some good
                    interviews and people will be interested, but american media
                    is tame pussy these days, which is how it should be, just
                    like my country singapore.
2004/1/22-23 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29753 Activity:nil
1/22    So the ex-governor of S. Dakota with a history of speeding got 100
        days in jail for running a stop sign and killing someone.  The S.
        Dakota judge could have given him anything from nothing to 11 years.
        Isn't there something wrong with this?
        \_ You forgot his history of running stop signs.  And lying about
           speeding that day.
2004/1/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11877 Activity:nil
1/21    Go Margaret!
        \_ I usually don't find Margaret Cho funny, but this
           is a riot!
        \_ Can we get Margaret an honorary csua account? She'd make an
           excellent addition to the motd.
           \_ Yeah she is about well informed about the budget as the
              average American. Entitlements have always taken a larger
              chunk than defense or places for the VP to relax.
              \_ See?  Even you can't resist being trolled by her.  We
                 should sign her up!
                 \_ The idea of a celebrity motd flame warrior is pretty
                    \_ Dude, seriously.  We could set her up with macho@csua
                       and watch the flames take off.
              \_ Straw man. She didn't say "entitlements." Go back and
                 reread and try again.
        \_ She wouldn't add anything to the motd.  We already have enough
           trolls, leftists, and ignorant ranting.  She could increase the
           4-letter-word count.  That's about it.
           \_ since the motd is mostly anonymos anyway, why don't we just
              pretend that she has an account?  Who'll know the difference?
              \_ mostly no one and no one will care.  go for it.
           \_ Sup, Republican ass monkey biyotch! --macho@csua
2004/1/14-15 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11771 Activity:kinda low
1/14    No such thing as racism!
        \_ Racism aside, this is messed up.  If it's consensual sex between
           two high school kids, child molestation and statutory rape should
           not pertain.
        \_ Oh my!
        \_ There may be racism in the sentencing but he did commit the crime.
           Their law says under-16 is off-limits, and he was over 18.
           \_ Maybe not even in the sentencing:
              'The latter charge, even without claims of aggravation, provided
              for a lengthy sentence, under Georgia's child protection laws.
              "The judge doesn't have an option" on the aggravated child
              molestation, Simpson (the defense attorney) told the Atlantic
              Journal Constitution. "His hands are tied. I have never seen this
              before, and I've tried hundreds of sex-related cases."'
2004/1/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11671 Activity:high
1/5     A Poll for the majority of you out there who do not support
        School vouchers:
             Do you think that the advent of FedEx and UPS made the USPS
        better or worse in the long run?
             And, while i know it is ridiculous to expect any sort of
        restraint or accuracy from a motd poll, i am JUST asking anti-
        voucher folks.  Feel free to comment/flame though. -phuqm

        Better: ...
        No effect:
        \_ There's a much better argument for vouchers based on an analogy.
           America has competition in it's university system, which is
           widely regarded as the best in the world, and no competition
           in it's k-12 system, which is close to the worse in the
           industrialized world. Also, we already have school choice for
           those whose parents care enough about education and have enough
           money to move to a town with a better school system.  The
           current form of school choice benefits only those lucky few whose
           parents fall into this category, and already has destroyed inner
           city schools in exactly the way voucher opponents claim "will"
           happen.  The irony is that the people who excersise school choice
           now, by moving to an expensive town to get a good education for
           their kids are the very middle class liberals who most vocally
           oppose school choice.  I also think it's worth pointing out that
           presently the k-12 education system in the US is so bad that
           the burden of proof is actually on those who *don't* want
           change, not the other way around.
            \_ but there are no vouchers for going to a private university
               so that argument makes no sense.
           \_ It's not just the Evil Middle-Class Liberals:
            \_ This is a very good short argument. tnx.  And I plan to steal
                it, and since you didn't sign you name, claim it as my own.
                :).  I have also said the same thing re: burden of proof
                many times, but the college analogy is not perfect since
                1.) it has always been there.  (i.e. no sudden change is
                involved) and 2.) even at the cheapest of public Us the
                student still pays some. -phuqm
            \_ I would say the same thing about the burden of proof re:
                health care.  Would you?
                \_ yes, actually.  perhaps you've mistaken me for a
                   conservative?  I happen to agree with the conservatives
                   on school choice, but that does not mean i support their
                   love of the insurance industry.  For the record, I'm
            \_ K-12 education is simply not that bad nationwide. What makes
               you think that it is? If you compare us to other industrialized
               nations, we do fine. Our worst schools are far worse, but that
               is true for everything in America, due to the income disparity.
                   also not a libertarian, and am ashamed to agree with
                   "phuqm" on any issue.
        \- I am not sure what you are suggesting by mentioning school
           vouchers. Are you going to suggest "since the existence of
           FedEx improved USPS, we should have subsidized FedEx"?
           maybe that would have "benefitted the taxpayers" but that would
           have benefitted the fedex stockholders much more. i think the
           better question has nothing to do with school vouchers. the usps
           is obligated to deliver mail to everybody for the same price.
           i assume there is no reason fedex cant charge more to send a
           package to a cabin in the montana woods [or just refuse to
           deliver there ... surely they arent obligated to have an office
           near by or poll the denizen of said cabin 6 times a week to see
           if he has anything to mail]. so if fedex gets to cherrypick
           routes and packages, do what extent does that adverse selection
           put the usps in a bigger and bigger hole. you should lay your
           cards on the table. --psb
            \_ Are you against vouchers?  If so, please vote.  I will
               happily "lay [my] cards on the table" soon, but i'd like to
               get some votes first. (you seem to be suggesting "worse")
               \- i think the vouchers will be underfunded and will be a
                  total boondoggle. the way they might cause some improvement
                  is by causing the teachers unions to keel over or maybe
                  the unions will panic enough to be more reasonable. but
                  it would seem to make more sense to just take on the unions
                  directly. i think if money is given to decent private
                  school and they are continually allowed to pick their
                  students you will have the quality of the schools improve
                  but the students getting shafted now will continue to be
                  shafted. it's hard to be "for or against vouchers" since
                  it isnt self-evident what you mean by them. --psb
            \_ Subsidising is beside the point.  The USPS pays
               for itself.  Taxpayers already do more than "subsidise"
               EDU, they pay for it outright.  My suggestion is that, imho
               the USPS has gotten markedly better since FedEx and UPS have
               arrived on the scene.  Since the only reasonable objection
               to vouchers is that it will make the existing public schools
               much worse, I would suggest that this is an indication that
               it might not.  Your point about CherryPicking is highly
               pertinent though, and I think that it is obvious that any
               legislation re: vouchers should attempt to address the
               problem of voucher schools rejecting hard cases.  ( Which
               has been a major problem in the "corporate" schools in SF
               and other places ).  Self-selection is an insolvable problem
               but I believe that advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
               \_ The point here is that private schools already exist, so
                  there is already a FedEx equivalent. I don't relate FedEx
                  to vouchers in any way. --dim
                  \_ But parents are forced to double pay.  I can choose not
                     to ever pay the USPS but even if I pay full rate to put
                     my kids in private school, I am also paying full rate
                     for them in the public schools which I'm not using.  If
                     vouchers meant that money was no longer a double payment
                     you bet your ass the public schools would improve... right
                     after breaking the spine of the very evil teacher's union.
                     \_ Union bad! Neocon Hulk smash!
                     \_ Ah, but "parents" aren't the only ones who pay for
                        public school. Childless taxpayers put into the system
                        too. Do they get their money back too? You are for
                        private school for extra performance, by your choice.
                        Why pay for an airplane ticket when your tax money
                        already pays for the interstate road system?
                        \_ If you don't pay into the system for education,
                           you end up paying down the road with crime and
                           prison costs.  Even if you libertarian gun nuts
                           take over, and all justice is meted out by
                           vigilantes, uneducated masses of criminals will
                           cost you time in gunning them down when you could
                           be doing something profitable.  Remember,
                           time is money.
                        \_ I think the university argument is a good one. There
                           are no vouchers for university students and those
                           who go to private colleges still end up paying to
                           support public colleges. If there are no vouchers
                           for universities and it works so well then maybe
                           vouchers aren't the answer. --dim
                           \_ BZZZT!  University isn't a requirement.  I'm not
                              required by law to send my children to a U. but
                              I am required by law to send them to k-12 (or
                              until 18 or whatever age).  If U. attendance was
                              required then the same voucher concept would
                           for universities and it works so well then maybe
                           vouchers aren't the answer. --dim
                              \_ You are required to *PAY* for a U, though,
                                 whether you send your kids or not. --dim
        \_ Delivery service is like utility companies. There isn't enough
           of them to compete for free market, and instead, each and every
           one has a monopoly in it's small niche. UPS delivers big packages,
           Fedex delivers next day reliably, and USPS delivers mail. All
           three domains end up not really competing with each other, and
           all three end up overcharging the consumers. Like utility companies
           I think delivery service should be highly regulated.
           \- i dont mean to insult you but this is too confused to be easily
              corrected. you may wish to read a book like "optimal regulation"
              by K. Train, although you will probably need to read some
              prerequisits ... not sure how far you will have to recurse.--psb
           \_ you know that by law fedex and ups are not allowed to deliver
                 \_ so there's no real freedom in this market, as I said.
              regular mail or touch your mailbox, right?  the market is not
              even remotely free.
              \_ Yeah and FedEx and UPS aren't required by Congress to deliver
                 mail to BFE at the same price as the house next door.
                 \_ so there's no real freedom in this market, as I said.
        \_ The teacher's unions are the largest unions in America.  They
           have a monopoly on public education monies and are not
           constrained by the Hatch Act like federal employees.  Guess
           who they donate almost to exclusively, and why the Dems
           are so anti voucher.
           \_ The teachers' union comprises under-paid and largely
              idealistic people who see kids for 8 hours a day (i.e.,
              more time than the kids' parents). They are well-educated
              and know they could earn more money elsewhere (the ones
              who couldn't earn more elsewhere can't teach and leave
              the profession). I have no problem with the teachers' union.
              I have a problem with the administrators who never taught
              and never intend to teach and who get paid ridiculous
              amounts of money only to squander the meager budgets of
              their districts.
                   \_ I know lots of teachers like that. And I know teachers
                      who have left the profession and made more money
              amounts of money only to squander the meager budgets of
              their districts.
                \_ HOLY SHIT IN A CUP!  I don't think you've actually *met*
                   any teachers!  Under paid?  Idealistic?  8 hours?  Well
                   edjumikated?  Earn more elsewhere?  Leave the profession
                   because they can't teach?  *None* of these things are
                   generally true.  I think I've been trolled.
                \_ Well there is no incentive to get rid of the
                   whose incentive is to increase their budget and number
                   administrators.  The ratio in the 1950s was 5:1 teacher
                   to administrator, today it is 2:1.  The private schools
                   whos incentive is to increase their budget and number
                   cost is ~ 3000$ per student, the public > 7500$ per
                   student.  The public cost per student is something
                   like 30% higher than in the 1980s but test results
                   have declined.  The inner city schools are nothing
                   but affirmative action self-perpetuating bureaucracies
                   whose incentive is to increase their budget and number
                   of employees, not educate children.
                   How I Joined Teach for America -- and Got Sued for
                   \_ private schools get to pick and choose students.  The
                      ones that would cost too much to educate (the disabled,
                      the retarded, the violent, etc) get the boot while the
                      cheap ones get welcomed.  It is the 90% for 10% of
                      the cost type situation that exists everywhere.
                   $20 Million
                   As for pay, if you prorate it over 12 months they are not
                   underpaid in a majority of communities.
                   \_ Are you referring to that article as a source for your
                        \_ No, but here's more:
                        The Union That Killed Education
2004/1/1-2 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11642 Activity:nil
1/1     You have to be an idiot or a lawyer to think that the interstate
        commerce clause gives congress constitutional authority to
        legislate regarding domestic violence. -peroof
        \_ Or both!
2003/12/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11605 Activity:high
12/29   Warning.  This is really disturbing, even for the motd.  Weak stomachs
        should skip this.  It is criminal and medical, not political, btw.
        \_ Think of the children!
           \_ or not... yow!
        \_ Sadly, this isn't the first time I've heard a story like this.
2003/12/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics] UID:11573 Activity:high
12/23   Malvo gets life in prison w/o parole.  Question:  Is this punishment
        actually worse than death by lethal injection?
        \_ I say yes (unless you're terrified of death, in which case
           that'd be the worst). Life in prison, even 20+ years in
           prison, is a hugely significant event. Most of the prisoners
           I'm sure probably wish they could die after being trapped
           inside concrete walls for years on end.
           \_ Evidently not, or there'd be a lot more dead prisoners.
              It's not all THAT hard to commit suicide.
        \_ Well I'm just surprised that race wasn't brought up as an issue.
           Smart black men hire smart lawyers to defend them based on race
           and they often get away with it.
        \_ Does life without parole really mean there's no possiblity of parole
           (aside from wrong conviction) and we really never have to worry
           about seeing the convicted on the streets again?
2003/12/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11460 Activity:high
12/15   So I figure they'll time it this way: Saddam now to throw the early
        Dem primaries into shambles, Osama Bin Forgotten around July just in
        time to prep and edit capture footage for the Republican National
        Convention, and then probably some WMDs in October to put the final
        nail in the coffin.  Anyone want to lay bets?  Get them in soon, I'm
        moving to Germany.
        \_ America - love it or leave it. Glad you'll pick the latter
          \_ Maybe I'll move to one of those industrialized countries with
             single-payer health care and a murder rate that's not horrid.-!op
           \_ Maybe we will.  And maybe we'll finally wake up and make you
              bloodsuckers leave instead.
           \_ I bet you're one of those morons who parrots the phrase
                "real americans" to refer to yourself and the rest of your
                cross-burning sister-marrying illiterate family.  You are the
                sheep.  And when the liberals leave no one will protect you
                from us, your corporate masters.  So go, liberals!  I want
                to sell fat and plastic to fuckwits like this guy without
                having to settle lawsuits every five minutes.
2003/12/11 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11416 Activity:nil
12/11   That damn liberal media is at it again:
        \_ Can I get a shout-out from the war-profiteering crowd in the back?
2003/12/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11315 Activity:nil
12/4    US State Department to censor Wesley Clark's testimony in Milosevic
        \_ My question is why Wesley Clark would testify at a court which
           USA never recognized at first place?  Wouldn't it makes a mockery
           of our own policy?
           \_ You're thinking of the ICC, the International Criminal Court.
              Clark is testifying before the International War Crimes
              Tribunal in the Hague, about his command of NATO during the
              Kosovo action.  These are totally different entities.  It's
              fairly obvious that the State Department is trying to
              suppress positive news coverage of a Democratic candidate,
              as there isn't much to protect in the way of national security
2003/12/4 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11309 Activity:high
12/2    Hey as long as i'm bringing purged motd items back to life..
        Does anyone have any statistics comparing per captia crime
        rates by population density?
        \_ let me ask you a question.  If you're walking down a dark street
           at night, do you feel safer when you see lots of cars on the road,
           or when you see lots of other pedestrians?  Do you feel safer
           seeing a squad car drive by, or actually seeing a cop out on the
           beat?  I claim that throwing idiotic car cities like LA and pheonix
           together with real cities like chicago or seattle and comparing them
           with rich suburbs misses the point.  Car culture leads to
           an impersonal, anonymus society, which leads to not only crime, but
           lonelines and misery which you can't quantify with your
            \_ The answer you think is correct is correct.  But, walking down
               a deserted street in SF in the middle of the night i am way
               more on my gaurd than I would be on a similarly deserted street
               in a (much poorer) rural area.  Cities are much richer than
               rural areas on average, but, again, I bet densely populated
               cities have much higher per capita rates of violent crimes.
               (now, that by no means would establish causality between
                poplation density and crime, as there are confounding factors,
                but still... "Animals can be driven insane by placing too many
                of them into too small a space...")
               Also there is a number of famous cases where a person is being
               brutally attacked over a long and well populated distance, in
               places like NY, with no one interferring or calling the police.
               This sort of think does not happen in rural areas. (that is, if
               people see you in trouble, they will help a *much* higher % of
                the time.)
            \_ I have never felt safer having seen a cop.  If i was female I
                would probably feel differently.
                \_ A mugger can only steal what you have on you at the time.
                   The police are under no such restriction.
                   \_ A mugger can kill you. I suppose it's not stealing, but
                      makes you lose everything.
                        \_ It's a hell of a thing to kill a man. You take away
                           everything he's got, and everything he's ever going
                           to have. - William Munny
2003/12/3 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11302 Activity:moderate
12/2    What's so special about the Scott Peterson case that deserves all the
        media coverage?  I'm sure there are many more other husband-murdering-
        wife cases in the country throughout the year, yet we don't hear about
        those everyday.
        \_ Nothing.  It doesn't deserve the coverage.  Now shut up.  I don't
           want to hear about it anymore.
        \_ They're both photogenic.  He was having an affair.  She disappeared
           while 8 months pregnant on Christmas Eve.  He changed his
           appearance and hid, then hired a celebrity lawyer.
           \_ Actually, it really is just your first point. They're relatively
              attractive people.
              \_ I think without the other salacious details, the story would
                 have died long ago.
           \_ It started out as a missing-persons story on Christmas Eve.  That
              started the drama.
              \_ Then they found out Scott Peterson had been having an affair;
                 Laci Peterson's family was shocked, drove over to Scott
                 Peterson's house, and took back all of Laci's stuff.
        \_ It will all be forgotten once the Michael Trial kicks into high gear.
           Remember OJ?  You ain't seen nothin' yet.
        \_ What's special is that pro-lifers are using the case to write new
           law that erodes the basis of Roe v. Wade by making murder of an
           unborn fetus a specific crime.
           \_ It is difficult to erode that which does not exist. -phuqm
              \_ ah, a pro-life libertarian.  If I didn't have to share a
                 country whith shitheads like you, I would actually find
                 this amusing.
              \_ Thanks, Yoda.  Any more mysterious epithets for us?
           \_ IIRC, the justification is that Scott couldn't get the death
              penalty just for murdering Laci.  Funny how a pro-life law is
              being passed so as to enable an execution...
           \_ Oh boy, here comes the pile-on...
           \_ Actually, that seems a lot more reasonable to me than what it
              normally done.  The legal tradition is that killing of an
              unborn fetus is murder.
              \_ That's not even true in the bible.  Sit down before you
                 fall down.
2003/11/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29665 Activity:very high
11/24   Patriot Act II surreptitiously passed via Congressional spending bill
        \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ and why wouldnt it be?
           \_ Oh, FOAD, you lousy troll.
2003/11/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10937 Activity:nil
11/4    Just wondering, has anyone read anything new and worthwhile in either
        of the sci-fi or comic/graphic novel genres?  I'm primarily interested
        in very recently published works like Stephenson's 'Quicksilver' and
        Gaiman's 'Endless Nights'. -dans
        \_ "Whiteout" is crime noir set in Antarctica
           "Powers" is crime fiction where the victims are super heroes
           \_ Powers is the BEST thing on comic book shelves these days.  Pick
              up every TPB in the series; you will not be disappointed. --erikred
           "Alias" by  Brian Michael Bendis is a PI who is a burnt-out hero
           "Red Star" is about an alternate world where the Soviets have magic
                I read a lot of comics; shoot me an email               -brain
        \_ http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/402-8067208-4854549
           Some of the best comics I've read in the past few years.  I'm
           not sure if there are translations in English, though.
        \_ FYI, 'Quicksilver' isn't really sci-fi - more like a pop culture
           attempt at Pynchon-esque historical fiction.  Stephenson is no
           Pynchon, though, and I haven't heard good things from those who
           have read it.
           \_ I read it and liked it somewhat, but was dissapointed.
              Basically, it makes you want to read more about the 17th
              century, and made me wish that Stephenson had just given up
              the novel format and written a slightly dramatized version
              of the events without adding fictional characters.
              His characters were much weaker than in Cryptonomicron.
              By his characters, I mean the ones stephenson
              invents, obviously.  Louis XIV and Isaac Newton are clearly
              more amazing characters than any novelist can create.
              Still, if you like all his other work, it's probably worth
              reading (I'm glad I read it.)
           \_ Thanks, good to know. -dans
2003/10/26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10788 Activity:nil
10/25   NPR In A Coma
        \_ that wasn't very interesting, and i can barely
           care less about old vegetative people wanting to die,
           i'm sure you can find a more entertaining hate filled
           free republic message topic.  do you really not have
           anything better to do than report uncreative free
           republic webpage titles?  i think you need a girlfriend.
        \_ I concur with the above. I am the worse for having read that. I
           hoped for some vitriolic anti-liberal ranting, but got boredom.
2003/10/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Science/Physics] UID:10784 Activity:nil
10/24   How much extra radiation do you get when flying during a Coronal Mass
        Ejaculation?  Like the one occuring right now.
        \_ "When that bowel shock strikes the earth's magnetic field, it's
           traveling a million miles an hour or more. So it's really moving.
           That's a lot of particles, a lot of hydrogen particles protons and
           electrons slamming in the magnetic field. And it sort of makes it
        \_ You'll die.
           \_ Sooner?
              \_ Instantly.  Like a marshmellow over a fire pit.
        \_ Should you worry more about possible plane crash caused by
           communication to control tower or GPS satellites being disrupted,
           than the higher radiation that you body receives?
           \_ In a word, Yes.
              \_ Like a marshmellow.  ZZZZT!
                 \_ ORBITAL LASERS!
                    \_ The Mafia with the help of the Men in Black and The
                       Evil Scientists for a Better Tomorrow would like to
                       attack to control The Orbital Mind Control Lasers.
                       Base attack is 11 or less.  Anyone want to pay to
                       stop it?
                       \_ I have a B-1 Bomber with a 100 Megaton warhead.
                          \_ SDI!
                       \_ Since the Boy Sprouts have a controlling influence
                          on the Mafia, and since the Rand Corporation owns
                          the Men in Black, NPR will stop that attack on
                          their soveignity over the OMCL.
                          \_ Not yet they don't!  I've got White Collar Crime!
                             Enron shuts off power to NPR's broadcast towers
                             and TOMC are mine!
2003/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10611 Activity:high
10/11   Not that TV is a great source of news and facts, but it brought my
        attention to the following issue covered by a BBC special when I
        was in Hong Kong.

        Do any of you (Bush supporters, especially) realize that we
        have been kidnapping people (i.e. without proper extradite proceedings)
        from over 3 continents and locking them up in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba,
        without charging them with a crime, denying them access to lawyers,
        without providing any judicial oversight whatsoever, and trying
        them in a kangaroo court set up by a military commission?
                \_ Soon everyone will know the TRU7H tnx to MIT:
        \_ we don't really hear about this on mainstream news, but I can
           assure you that everyone in Europe does.

        What happened to the human rights that we've been talking about?
        \_ Yes, I'm perfectly aware and didn't need to watch HK BBC to find
           out like it's some BushCo Conspiracy to hide it from the American
           people.  As a "Bush supporter, specifically", my response is two
           fold: 1) so what?  2) get your facts straight, there haven't been
           any trials and there won't ever be.
                        --Evil BushCo Republican Conspirator
           \_ so what?  do you have a conscience?  Guantanomo Bay is a legal
              blackhole; 35+ have attempted suicide so far. We don't know what
              is going on in there. There may even be a torture chamber. Do
              you realize that the difference between terrorists and
              non-terrorists lies not in their beliefs, but in the methods
              with which they carry out their goals?  If we deny them their
              right to fair trial, if we end up torturing people who are
              innocent, then what is the difference between US and THEM?
              \_ What the US was *intended* to be and what it *is* and has
                 been since the 60's are very different places.  Why pretend?
                 If you want the America the FF promised us "if we could keep
                 it" then you should be deeply disappointed in what you've
                 had for 40 years or more.  G.Bay is just one more example of
                 the US involving itself in foreign affairs when we really
                 should have packed up our bags and left the rest of the world
                 to rot after WWII.  Actually, this reminds me of a PC game
                 from the early 90s called "Balance of Power".  After numerous
                 attempts to crush the Russians with aggresive foreign policy
                 which usually lead to my downfall or nuclear war, I racked up
                 an off the charts high score by pulling back all troops and
                 all foreign aid money from everywhere and doing nothing for
                 my 8 years in office.  I wonder if the writers did that
                 intentionally or that's really the way the world is....  And
                 yes I know the world isn't a video game, so don't bother.  It
                 was an aside.
                 \_ Embittered? No hope? Then take your nihilist punk ass out
                    back and blow your head off so the rest of us can get on
                    with trying to make the world a better place.
                    \_ I'm not at all embittered and certainly not a nihilist.
                       I'm a realist and I don't pretend that we still follow
                       the FF's ideals.  This country is nothing like they
                       intended and never will be again so long as idealists
                       such as yourself only choose the bits and pieces of what
                       they wanted while discarding all those annoying bits
                       you don't like.  It's an all or nothing deal and we've
                       already chosen nothing.  Go read the Federalist Papers
                       and see how your world view dramatically differs from
                       the FF's.  Punk ass?  Suicide?  Not even close.  Someone
                       like you actually making the world a better place? That
                       is even less likely than me suiciding to "clear the way"
                       for you to fuck things up even more with your selective
                       minimalist version of the FF's dream and your arrogant
                       and obnoxious "I'm holier than thou and making the world
                       a better place!" bullshit.  Tell me exactly what *you*
                       are personally doing to "make the world a better place"
                       and what you've accomplished so far besides sloganeering
                       and being a self righteous twit.  --E. BC. C.
                       \_ Sure.  Sign your csua user name, and I'll gladly
                          email you with my list of contributions.
                          \_ You should be proud of your great contribuations
                             to humanity.  Please share with us all.
                             \_ Ah, I see that we are both of us trolls.
                                \_ No, I'm not.  But since you are you can go
                                   away now.  Bye.
        \_ What happened to proper use of English?
           \_ aside from attacking my language skills, do you have
              anything valid to say?  or are you the type who thinks that
              anything Bush does is righteous?
              \_ Ok, how about some proof that we kidnapped anyone?
                 \_ Not only did we kidnap people, but rightfully so.  Fuck
                    the terrorists.  The ones in GB are lucky we didn't take
                    care of them the way the Russians do and start excuting
                    their family members.  --Evil BushCo Conspirator
              \_ what human rights have we been talking about? arguably,
                 some humans really should be treated like animals though.
                 but yeah, bush is a moron anyway.
        \_ Might makes Right.
           \_ That's always been true.
        \_ Virtually all of those people in the camp somehow ended up
           in US custody without legal extradite proceeding.  So, by
           UN convention, we are kidnapping them to Guantanamo Bay.  Not even
           American lawyers have access to them because GB is not considered
           a soverign territory of the USA.
           \_ Some body delete this thread before me Engrish become so bad.
              \_ Censoring is english guantanmo bay hong news is yes, lah!
           \_ Yes, we kidnapped them but not by UN anything.  The UN is a
              powerless and meaningless coffee chat parlor house and thank
              god because the last thing the freedom loving West needs is
              all those self appointed third world military dictators (who are
              a majority in the UN) getting any real power on the world stage.
        \_ there was a time I vividly remember when we blamed German citizens
           who turned a blind eye towards what was going on in the
           concentration camps.  It's interesting that most of our own
           citizens have turned a blind eye towards what is going on within
           our own government while critizing other citizens for doing the
           same thing.
           \_ I didn't realise anyone here was old enough to remember the
              1930s, much less remember them vividly.  Seriously, I find your
              comparison to Nazi Germany highly offensive.  Rounding up a few
              hundred foreign terrorists with criminal backgrounds is not in
              any way comparable to the mass displacement, loss of property,
              and finally mass murder of 6+ million Jews, plus countless
              Gypsies and an unknown number of other German "undesirables".
              Shame on you.
              \_ Do you deny we have turned a blind eye to G.Bay, though?
                 We have absolutely NO IDEA what is happening there.  We
                 don't know WHO is there.  They have no legal recourse.
                 The comparison to Nazi Germany, while highly charged, has
                 a valid premise which you ignored.
                 \_ No, it doesn't and I didn't ignore it.  It's sickening and
                    wrong as I said.  But since you're so dense and have
                    apparently never seen the bodies or the 'survivors' of the
                    camps once the Allies showed up, I'll explain it to you:
                    In the Nazi camps, they took their own citizens by the
                    millions and those of 'undesirable' racial and other status
                    from surrounding conquered nations, took everything they
                    owned, put them in cattle cars where many died on their
                    way to the camps, shot a bunch of arrival until they
                    decided bullets were too good for them and 6 million
                    bullets would be very expensive so they gassed them to
                    death and tossed the bodies in ovens because burial is
                    time and space consuming and hey they were only jews and
                    other trash so who cares anyway.  The 'survivors' such as
                    they were underwent horrendous medical 'experiments' akin
                    to what a cruel 5 year old does to captured butterflies,
                    except these were real people.  Someone's mother, father,
                    someone's sister or brother, a son or daughter.  They were
                    all someone' neighbor.  Those who weren't cut open, burned,
                    frozen, poisoned, or murdered in some other way were left
                    staving down to skeletons.  Most were so close to death
                    from starvation when the Allies showed they couldn't stand.
                    I have no sympathy for foreign criminal terrorists getting
                    rounded up and shot.  I certainly have none for foreign
                    criminal terrorists who get rounded up and sent to summer
                    camp where they get coddled, are allowed to pray three
                    times a day, get tax payer funded Muslim holy men to visit
                    them, lead them in prayers, and oh yeah, betray this
                    country along the way.  Your comparison is sickening and
                    I categorically deny there is any similarity whatosever
                    between the two cases.  Shame on you twice for your
                    ignorance and your returning to insist on spreading your
                    ignorance a second time.
                    \_ Imagine just how much of all of this could have been
                       avoided if the people had stood up and denounced the
                       Nazi concentration camps.  No, Camp X-ray is not a
                       a genocidal concentration camp.  It is, however, a
                       denigration of human rights, and as such forms the
                       top of a slippery moral slope that could one day lead
                       to wholesale incarceration of a people simply because
                       of their race/creed.  We have an opportunity to nip
                       this in the bud before it becomes more of an atrocity,
                       and we should do so.
                       \_ With rights comes responsibilities.  People who go
                          around blowing shit up have yielded those rights.
                          I see no slippery slope.  Any people or culture or
                          nation that won't defend itself from enemies without
                          or enemies within is doomed.  By sitting on our
                          hands crying about the human rights of terrorists we
                          are committing suicide as a people.
                          \_ Agreed!  But _alleged_ terrorists should have
                             the same rights to defend themselves against
                             the charges as any other accused criminal.
                             Prove that our system works by convicting the
                             terrorists in our criminal courts, or admit
                             that the system is flawed, reform it, and THEN
                             try them.  Military tribunals and an opaque
                             basis for incarceration will not convince
                             anyone that we are right.
                             \_ Would you give someone a nice friendly public
                                trial if it meant the prosecution would have to
                                give up sources, witnesses, intelligence,
                                methods and other info that would allow your
                                enemy to keep you from successfully
                                infiltrating their groups and preventing
                                future attacks?  I wouldn't.  These aren't
                                standard civil criminal cases.  We're at war.
                                The enemy is well funded, dispersed, lives
                                among us and our allies, hates us for what
                                we are and is willing to send their children
                                to die in the name of their god in an effort
                                to destroy us and convert the world to their
                                religion.  I'll take a pass on the FBI style
                                civilian criminal justice trial, thanks.
                                \_ When the FBI busts a mafia figure, do
                                   they have to give up everyone of their
                                   sources to the public?  I think not.
                                   You're too quick to embrace breaching
                                   the Bill of Rights in an attempt to
                                   catch the baddies without looking at
                                   the less-civil-rights-infringing
                                   alternatives that already exist.
                                   \_ Actually, yes, that's what the witness
                                      protection program is all about.
                                      \_ Ridiculous.  This is not all of
                                         their sources.  A good deal remains
                                \_ This is the kind of attitude that leads
                                   to excess. Is there anything you would
                                   not support in your endless, unwinnable
                                   "war" against an invisible enemy that
                                   lurks amongst us?
                                   \_ People use this 'Orwell argument' a lot.
                                      The trouble is, in Orwell's world, the
                                      invisible enemy was made up.  In our
                                      case the invisible enemy is real.
                                      Do you honestly believe all the happy
                                      terrorist cells are made up by the
                                      government so they can take your
                                      liberties away?  Yes it sucks, but this
                                      is the price of being successful, people
                                      will always be gunning after you and your
                                      way of life.
          \_ btw, you should use the word "hypocrisy" here. -MOTD GRAMMAR GOD
2003/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10603 Activity:low
10/11   Drugs, Russia and Terrorism, Part 1
        Red Cocaine: The Drugging of America and the West
        \_ This shouldn't be news to anyone that can read and isn't naive.
           \_ "who can read"
2003/10/10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10569 Activity:nil
10/9    Suppose I go on a cruise and the ship is in international water
        where there is no jurisdiction from any government. What would
        happen if there is murder or drug dealings or pot growing? Who
        regulates and who enforces?
        \_ The captain throws you overboard.  -John
        \_ this is one of those things that the cruise lines don't
           want you to think about
        \_ or, hypothetically, brainwash people into your bullshit
           made-up religion...
           \_ hint: all religions are made up.
        \_ Nothing happens. I once raped 11 chicks on this one cruise. -kobeB
           \_ "This one goes to eleven!"
        \_ Doesn't the country where the ship is registered have jurisdiction?
           If you and a chick voluntarily swim say 10ft away from the ship, and
           then you rape her, that I don't know.
        \_ Every square inch of this planet is under the legal jurisdiction of
           some government and if they don't really have it they'll take it
           anyway if your crime is serious enough.
           \_ yep this is the de facto answer -- the de jure answer is the
              country of registry has jurisdiction. however, liberia and
              panama cannot be said to have global law enforcement
              capabilities. --aaron
        \_ Typically the person's country of citizenship will enforce its
           \_ Really?  So how about, oh say, when some Arabs toss an old
              Jewish guy in a wheel chair overboard after taking over the
              ship at gun point?
                \_ They make a bad opera out of it and punish everyone else.
                   Collective suffering, you know.  -John
        \_ Ever hear of International Law?
           \_ Yes, no such thing.  Where are the International Police and the
              International Judges and the International Jails and under which
              International Government do these 3 branches report to and why
              have I yet to get a summons for International Jury Duty?
2003/10/9 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10561 Activity:nil
10/9    http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/09/bryant.case/index.html
        Allegations detailed (Kobe is going to jail!)
2003/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:10498 Activity:nil
10/7    Secrets, Lies, and Atomic Spies
        PBS- Nova Special
2003/10/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10415 Activity:kinda low
10/1    I got a stupid question.  There are more than 40 states in USA
        suffering budget crisis.  Why California governor is the only one
        get recalled?
        \_ An aside here: Did you know $87 billion would cover the deficits
           of all 50 states combined?
        \_ it's an order of magnitude problem.
           \_ California's economy is an order of magnitude, if not more,
              larger than many of those States.  Further, California's
              economy was concentrated on high-tech sector.  Granted,
              Davis is not nearly as effective as, let say, Pete Wilson.
              But using budget crisis as the ground for recall when
              the budget crisis arises due to severe lack of capital gains
              and sales taxes than lavishing state spending?
                        --OP, not a Davis fan.
              \_ From 1993-94 to 2000-01 spending increased from $47.3 billion
                 to $80.1 billion. As a percentage of budget, CA's deficit
                 is among the 6 worst (with OR, NV, TX, AL, and WI). What say
                 you? --dim
                 \_ the business week article 2 weeks ago said that CA
                    spending between the same period you quoted increases
                    on average 1% per year.  Now I am *REALLY* confused.
                    \_ http://www.bailard.com/CA%20muni%20market%20piece_2003.pdf
                 \_ how about revenue drop?  can anyone give me a lead
                    on where i can find info like that?
                    \_ From $75.7 billion to $65.8 billion. I've seen
                       other, but similar numbers like $66.6 billion.
                 \_ you are ignoring the rising costs and population in CA
                    since 1994.
                    \_ Rising population should mean rising revenues, unless
                       you mean there are more freeloaders now. In fact,
                       revenues have almost doubled and yet we are still
                       outspending them.
                       \_ That was the case in 2000 when there was a surplus.
                          But now it turned into rising unemployment benefits.
                       \_ Higher energy price is part of the reason.
                 \_ heck, gasoline was $1.20 in 1993.
                    \_ And under $1.00 in 2001. Your point?
                 \_ those 5 other states are not recalling their govenors.
              \_ Other governors don't have the power crisis (for good or
                 bad) hanging over their head. Also, there is no politician
                 who is as uncharismatic as Davis; he really has no friends,
                 so he's easy to kick while he's down.
                 \_ I would think the power "crisis" should be hanging over
                    the head of Pete Wilson and the Bush appointed FERC.
                    \_ I'm sure you would think that.
        \_ Yawn.  He's not being recalled because we're in debt.  He's being
           recalled for being a criminal, for selling out the state in such
           a huge way to special interests, for selling his signature, for
           telling the Big Lie one too many times, and for being so cynical
                       \_ Is this some homosexual code word?
                          \_ no
           it makes other politicians look good by comparison.  This is so
           old.  It's been discussed over and over.  Please stop the really
           lame loaded questions with the pre-loaded assumptions.
           \_ How is he "a criminal"? I don't like Davis either, but don't
              get ahead of yourself here, chippy.
              \_ When there's quid pro quo cash for his political support and
                 it's so blatant (Davis opposes measure, business reps show up
                 and write $100k check, Davis signs bill next day) then it's
                 criminal.  Keep up with the news.  Chippy, indeed.
                 \_ Funny.   When Wilson did this it was called free speech.
                    \_ And when Bush gets whopping donations from oil
                       lobbies, no one bats an eye.
                       \_ And give government contracts to his friend companies
                          to rebuild iraq.  What is company did Cheney work
                          for as CEO?  How is that company doing?
                 \_ He has not been arrested or charged with any crime.
                    Calling him a criminal just makes you look stupid.
                    \_ And BC lied in a federal court.  And several in the
                       Kennedy family have raped or killed someone.  So what?
                       Powerful people never go to jail or get charged.  You're
                       very naive if that's your standard.
2003/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29548 Activity:high
9/29    "N.H. Court Trashes Private Garbage Search"
        http://csua.org/u/4kj (Yahoo News)
        Hmm, let's see.  I rape and kill a random hot chick on the street in
        the middle of a dark night, dump her body in my garbage can with all
        my semen and fingerprints on her.  I even let her leg stick out of the
        lid and write my name on the garbage can.  Now I'm jail-free because
        I'm protected by the constitution, because the cops can't search my
        "trash" and determine that I have committed a crime without first
        getting a warrant, and they can't get a warrant without first looking
        at my "trash" and determine that I have possible committed a crime.
        Chicken and egg.
        \_ is that a fantasy of yours?
        \_ You're being dense. Familiarize yourself with the concept of
           probable cause. The idea is they need to have a reason to search
           that will hold up in court ("I saw a leg sticking out of the
           garbage can") to prevent police abuses like fishing expeditions.
           Your logic is awful and betrays naivete about constitutional thought
2003/9/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10270 Activity:nil
9/20    Family to lose home by eminent domain for Costco store
        \_ Funny thing is, she's willing to sell.  She just wants $2.13m for a
           property valued at $400k.  No sympathy here. URL:
           login: yeahright@@dallasnews.com pwd: password
           \_ Eminent domain should not be allowable no matter how much she
              wants for it. They are building a COSTCO, not a bridge. --dim
           \_ You miss the point.  Her dollar figure is intentionally well
              beyond market value because, get this, *she doesn't want to sell
              at any price*!!!  Eminent domain is evil and gets abused for all
              sorts of shit.  It got so bad in CA with school districts(!!!)
              doing things like declaring eminent domain on some people's
              houses, then sitting on the land for 10-15 years and selling it
              for profit that there's now a law against just such a thing.  You
              should have tremendous sympathy for anyone who gets their house
              and property stolen by the government.  More so, it should piss
              you off unless you're some sort of socialist who doesn't believe
              in personal property rights.  And yes, I consider the government
              forcing me to sell my house to them at whatever they consider
              FMV without bidding, on their timeline, without recourse to not
              sell or find a higher bidder or any other options to be theft.
              You think the government is going to pay her $30k agent's fee to
              buy her replacement home?  That's $30k right out of her pocket.
              \_ I'm going to go out on a limb here and do the unthinkable (at
                 least on the motd):  I apologize.  In not offering sympathy
                 to this woman for trying to squeeze every penny out of the
                 the sale of her house, I did not mean to imply approval of the
                 sneaky and dastardly policy of using eminent domain to grab
                 land for a commercial venture.  Now, please go back to the
                 article and read the part where she says she was willing to
                 sell the house for $10 per square foot.  If she's not willing
                 to sell, she shouldn't have said she was-- at any price.
                 There's more to this story than meets the eye on both sides.
                 \_ My house has FMV of about $590k.  However, I would not
                    consider selling it for $590k right now if I was *forced*
                    to.  I'm not ready yet.  However, if I was offered some
                    ridiculously larger number, being forced to sell wouldn't
                    be quite so bad.  About 1.75x to 2x FMV would be about
                    right to get me to move without a lawsuit assuming they
                    covered all my related expenses in addition to the FMV.
                    Everything has a price.  FMV isn't enough money to get
                    99% of home owners to move without problems.  By definition
                    they can get FMV any time they want on their own schedule.
                 \_ well duh, there is a $ point at which people will give in
                    to eminent domain.  the point is that she shouldn't
                    be forced to give up her home.  people put a price on
                    the sentimental and priceless part of a home.
                    \- if you are interested in property rights and the law,
                       two interesting things to look at are: Spur Industries
                       v. Del E. Webb [494 P.2d 701], and the famous article
                       by Guido Calabresi and Melamed: Property Rules,
                       Liability Rules, and Inalienability: One view of the
                       Cathedral [85 Harvard Law Rev. 1089]. The case is
                       between two private parties but has a sort of interest-
                       ing outcome [the winner of the injuction, is liable for
                       money]. G. Calabresi was the deal of Yale Law School and
                       is now a Federal judge. --psb
2003/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10239 Activity:moderate
9/17    Wesley Clark: General Issues
        Wesley Clark's command at Fort Hood lent 17 pieces of armor and
        15 active service personnel under his command to the Waco Branch
        Davidian operation.
        \_ food for thought- he's the Chairman of a electric car company.
           maybe the voters can help the environment by bringing in corporate
           influence from the opposite direction!
        \_ He is a soldier.  Soldier doesn't make decisions.  They execute
                \_ I imagine alot of German's said this during WWII.
                   \_ It's not a war crime to lend out personnel for a mission.
                   \_ And the Imperial Japanese.
                      \_ And the Americans in Vietnam.
                         \_ Vietnam is hardly comparable to Germany/Japan in
                            \_ In scale, no, in principle, yes.
                                \_ Sorry, I normally don't reply to motd
                                   posts with insults, but this statement
                                   marks you as an idiot beyond the pale
                                   of the ordinary ignoramus.  -John
                                   \_ We are talking about the principle
                                   \_ We are not talking about the nature
                                      of the wars, but the principle
                                      that soldiers should not always
                                      blindly follow orders.  "It's my
                                      orders" had been used as part of
                                      legal defense for trials of Vietnam
                                      atrocities.  Don't get too excited.
                                        \_ Wasn't excited, was calling you
                                           an idiot.  My apologies, you've
                                           clarified yourself, I take it back.
           \_ Officers are expected to make decisions.
        \_ People accusing how China dealing with FaLunGong... The way
           USA dealing with cult within its territory is not all that
           different neither.
           \_ Uhm no.  The situation was largely unacceptable and there was
              a LOT of criticism and debate that resulted from that fiasco.
              Do you really think a situation like this would hit the chinese
              press as anything but glorious victory of chinese nationalist
              forces over subversive insurgent criminals???
              \_ Perhaps the better analogy for PRC-Falungong is US-Muslims.
                 \_ Perhaps not.  Where are Muslims being rounded up and put
                    in prison or insame asylums?  Take it home, Jack.  We know
                    about China.
                    \_ Perhaps the better analogy would be US-Mormons in the
                    \_ Many muslims were rounded up and detained for weeks or
                       months post 9/11.
           \_ Do FaLunGong members stock up firearms?
               \_ no, firearms are hard to come by.  They did disrupt
                  TV signals, etc.  I guess anything they do is legit
                  because they are against a "communist" government, right?
               \_ Gasp!  Stocking up firearms!  They must DIE DIE DIE.
               \_ Since when is this illegal?  Koresh jogged daily
                  through Waco.
2003/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10217 Activity:nil
9/16    Is suicide a crime under the law?
        \_ yes, punishable by the death sentence
        \_ It's illegal.  The 'punishment' is you get pulled in for a 3 day
           evaluation for the unsuccessful attempt and then they decide you're
           crazy and lock you up and drug you for a long time.  You also can't
           get life insurance payments for your beneficiary if you succeed.
2003/9/10-11 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10141 Activity:moderate
9/10    Business school or law school. What's better for a geek's career?
        \_ porn school.
           \_ How about joining the Human Sexuality Dept.?
        \_ A real geek wouldn't consider either one.
           \_ not true
        \_ B-school. Not that you wouldn't succeed in law school, but it's
           much less useful for doing anything except, well, pretty much, law.
           \_ That's absolutely false.  I know a number of guys that went on
              to very successful business careers in the private sector (w/o
              going to B-School).  I also know a couple of guys that went into
              law enforcement with law degrees.  Knowing the law is far more
              useful than you give it credit for.
           So if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. For anything else,
           b-school. You'll learn something and perhaps more importantly,
           meet a lot of talented motivated people with diverse backgrounds
           (depending on your b-school). And they will be thrilled to meet
           a techie person who actually understands techie things, since
           many of them will be interested in careers at technical companies.
           \_ Talented, motivated people with diverse backgrounds?  What is
              this school you speak of?  A close friend of mine went to a
              top five business school and met only idiots and middle managers
              clamoring to move into upper-middle management.  I apologize for
              my sarcasm, which is borne primarily out of skepticism.  Did you
              or someone you know have a different experience?  If so, where?
              \_ I thought the same thing before I visited a friend at
                 Harvard. He was ChemE at Cal, and I was really impressed
                 with the class I went to with him. All the students came
                 from different backgrounds ... investment banker here, govt
                 civil service person there, farmer over here, engineer over
                 there. Very thoughtful discussion, and what was neat was
                 that everyone spoke with a different perspective. So the
                 discussion was very interesting, and I completely changed
                 my mind on business school. I would have liked Harvard.
                 BTW, my understanding is there's a top-3 (Stanford, Harvard,
                 Wharton) and a all-others, and it's a huge gap between top-3
                 and all-others.
                 \- what about kellog? also the diff school have diff
                    flavors. like case approach vs. theory [uchi] etc.
                    \_ There's a number of solid next-tier schools ...
                       Kellogg is one, also Fuqua, Darden, Sloan, Haas, etc.
                       But seriously, no matter what weird ranking might
                       jumble them up, the top 3 are definitely the top 3
                       with a big gap between. You'll rarely/never find anyone
                       who turns down Stanford/Harvard/Wharton for anything
                       else at all. The other schools are consolation prizes.
                       \- ok if you say so. http://mba.eiu.com
2003/9/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10122 Activity:very high
9/8     You think the US has bad crime--a friend in London was just mugged
        by a guy who hit him in the head with a machete and stole his
        phone.  Wow.  -John
        \- and we learn from this; it's hard to kill a person without a gun.
                \_ He didn't want to kill him.  He wanted his cell phone.  No,
                   it's not hard to kill someone with a machete;  ask 300,000
                   Tutsis.  -John
                   \- if you look at stats, the types of weapons [including
                      type of gun] has big effects on the fatality rates
                      associate with crime. although the relationship between
                      crime rates and gun availability is complicated i
                      belive the numbers are quite clear the rate of people
                      killed is alot high when guns are involved. note also
                      it's a lot higher with long guns than handguns ...
                      so policy that affects the gun type mixture has
                      implications for fatalities as well --psb
                      \_ It's pretty obvious that more people will be killed
                         given that a crime is commited and that a gun was
                         involved (as opposed to a gunless crime).  This
                         says nothing about the relationship between gun
                         availability and crime rate (pro-gun people claim,
                         probably justifiably, that guns are a deterrent.)
                         It's also troubling that moral implications
                         of reckless regulation of private lives does not
                         enter the discussion of policy.
                         \_ I'll bet if everyone (except felons, certified
                            crazies, etc) was _required_ to carry a gun,
                            stranger on stranger crime would be almost
           \_ no, the attacker easily could have chopped up the victim with a
              *machete* after whacking them in the head.  you've learned
              nothing, not even how to properly spread your FUD.
              \_ "Hard" is not describing just the physical possibility.
                 Physical proximity increases the psychological impact
                 of causing injury.
                 \_ Anyone willing to whack someone on the head with a machete
                    for a cell phone doesn't have the same psychological limits
                    you and I have.
                    \_ as john said, the goal wasn't a murder.  The goal was
                       a robbery.
                       \_ which isn't at all what the person above said about
                          hard.  they were talking psychological limitations
                          to killing, not the attacker's goals.  if murder
                          was the goal, they'd be dead no matter the weapon.
                          if theft was the goal, they'd point the gun, take
                          the cell and leave if the victim didn't give the
                          attacker any crap.
        \_ Actually, no, I don't think crime in the US is bad.  It's mostly
           confined to certain areas of large cities which can be avoided.
           This is a very safe country compared to most where you can get
           mugged on the street by a guy hitting you in the head with a
           machete for your phone.
           \_ Interestingly, this doesn't stop Americans from being terribly
              _afraid_ of crime, even if (and sometimes even especially) if
              they live in areas where they are very unlikely to be victims.
           \_ Homicide rates, Y2K, per 100K population:
                50.14 South Africa
                21.40 Russia
                10.00 Lithuania
                9.94 Estonia
                6.22 Latvia
                5.64 USA
                2.94 Spain
                1.81 Australia
                1.79 France
                1.76 Canada
                1.61 England
                1.42 Italy
                             you were a stree thug.  I've got no sympathy for
                1.17 Germany
                \_ Do you have stats that break out cities vs non-cities for
                   any of these countries?  The US non-gang banger crime rates
                   are probably lower than Germany's rate listed above.
              \_ Crime is slowly spreading into the nicer areas so there is
                 some justification for crime fears but it is true that the
                 _current_ rates in those areas are still low.
           \_ Unfortunately, some areas where people had to go to (like Berkeley
              for school) has bad crime rates.
              \_ You don't _have_ to go to a crime ridden city for school and
                 the city doesn't have to be so crime ridden.  Get rid of
                 pro-crime groups like Cop Watch and you'll see crime drop even
                 in Berkeley.
                 \_ You know the crime rate has gone down in Berkeley since
                    since Cop Watch started in the late 80s, right?
                    \_ You're going to attribute lowered crime to Cop Watch?
                       You're nuts.  I was here in the early 80's to now and
                       it has to do with more cops on the streets on foot and
                       on bikes being more aggressive with criminals during
                       the last 20 years.  Next you'll be claiming that a
                       butterfly in China has somehow caused crime to drop
                       here as well.
                       \_ cops commit crimes.
                          \_ yes, I'm sure the dramatic drop in crime in
                             Berkeley is due to Cop Watch coming down hard on
                             the evil UCPD and BPD and keeping them from
                             abusing drug dealers and muggers by limited the
                             poor oppressed criminals civil rights and freedom
                             of movement by putting their sorry asses in jail.
                          \_ it's only a crime if you get caught.
                       \_ No, you are the nut for claiming that Cop Watch has
                          had an effect on the crime rate one way or another.
                          You are making a totaly unsubstantiated claim and
                          then when evidence is shown contrary to your claim,
                          you fall back on ad hominem tactits. Show me the
                          evidence that Cop Watch has caused increased crime
                          in Berkeley. The best way you could do it is to
                          compare Berekely with a similar city and show that
                          the crime rate dropped more in the other city.
                          Bet you can't do it, though. I think that Cop
                          Watch has caused the police to act more civilly
                          especially on South Side, leading to better
                          community relations and more respect for the
                          police, which has led to *surprise* a lower
                          crime rate. Where the police are totally out
                          of control, like LA Southside in the 90s, is
                          when crime goes up the most.
                          \_ The cops were always civil in Berkeley *unless*
                             \_ a BPD once yelled at me, "What's the matter
                                with you, you got your head up your ass?" And
                                he thought I was a grad student, not a punk.
                                \_ If you were pissing on my shoes I'd say the
                                   same thing, punk.
                             you were a street thug.  I've got no sympathy for
                             the trash crawling around Telegraph in the 80s.
                             \_ I lived in South Berkeley in the late 80s
                                and the cops were most definitely not civil.
                                \_ Me too.  Never had a problem.  Maybe you
                                   should stop spitting on them.
        \_ You think London has bad crime compared to NYC, LA, or most
           large American cities? In Berkeley, some idiot shot and killed
           a student for his wallet. I assume your friend survived.
           \_ I remember when I was at Cal, in the paper, I read some guy was
              mugging a couple on Channing St., and he gave them a count of 3
              to give him their wallets. At 2, he shot the guy.
              \_ Yes, there are many anecdotes around and no one ever said
                 Berkeley was a safe place anyway.  And no, he didn't shoot at
                 2.  The idiot guy tried to talk to his mugger about it and
                 settle their differences without violence.  After all,
                 violence never settled anything, right?  Yes, I was here then
                 \_ I believe that they both reached for the gun.
                    \_ Must be a different dude.  The deader I know of tried
                       the Peace & Conflict Studies Department method.  His
                       girlfriend who handed over her purse is still alive.
                       \_ Is this the appropriate situation to claim,
                          "Isn't it ironic?" -alanis
                          \_ No, but it sounds good.
                          \_ Alanis was wrong. She sang of tragic, not ironic.
                             \_ Alanis was responsible for a whole generation
                                of teenage girls being taught to horribly
                                misuse a perfectly good word.
                                \_ teenage girls (and adult men and all between)
                                   have been horribly misusing that word LONG
                                   before anyone had heard of Alanis.
                                \_ you are wrong.  She did not sing of
                                   "tragic" any more than she sang of
                                   "ironic".  rain on your wedding day is
                                   ironic if you think like a teenage girl.
                                   It is not tragic.  10K spoons is neither
                                   tragic nor ironic. (but more the latter
                                   than the former).  Only the plane crash
                                   could be considered "tragic" by anyone not
                                   an idiot, and even that is pushing it and
                                   it also has ironic elements.  (though that
                                   is DEF. pushing it).  Oh yeah, a no smoking
                                   sign on a cig. break is ironic not tragic.
                                   (if you are a smoker who expected to smoke
                                   but who obeys signs).  [formatd all over
                                   this *mess*]
                             \_ Wow, you heard the same stand up routine
                                everyone else did and took it for your own.
                                You're obviously too clever for motd.
2003/9/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10107 Activity:nil
9/6     Did the Democrats steal the 1960 election?
        \_ probably -democrat
        \_ Yes.  It's generally accepted what took place in Chicago was both
           highly illegaly and made the difference nationwide.
           \_ Vote early, vote often.
        \_ In answer to the unspoken question, it was a crime then and it was
           a crime in 2000.  Any election that depends on a margin of victory
           less than the margin of error is flawed and should be redone.
           \_ To correct your misstatement, it was a felony then, it was a
              politcal issue settled by the courts in 2000.  Your opinion in
              your second sentence is properly noted.
              \_ You have interpreted the word crime to mean a criminal act
                 punishable by the law where I intended it to mean a despicable
                 and unethical act worthy of public censure.
                        \_ Enforcing the 14th Amendment is an unethical
                           act worth of public censure?  NOT changing
                           election laws after it is over
                           is unscrupulous?  Sorry, you're full of shit.
                 \_ Then you need to get a dictionary - the person before
                    you was correct.
                    \_ ok mr dictionary...
       n 1: an act punishable by law; usually considered an evil act; "a
            long record of crimes" [syn: {law-breaking}]
       2: an evil act not necessarily punishable by law; "crimes of
          the heart"
                       note the second definition.  "You need to get a
                       dictionary" type reponses are pathetic even when
                       valid, but when you aren't even right, well god
                       damn you look like a moron.
                    \_ Don't worry, I'm sure all the fat sysadmin votes will
                       get counted every time.  You're not poor and black and
                       living in the South, don't worry!
                       \_ i really like this new phrase that has entered the
                          motd lexicon(fat sysadmin.)  That really sums it up.
                          \_ adminus systemae fatso.  related to the just as
                             pathetic geekus comico
2003/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10096 Activity:nil
9/5     Disneyland Anaheim ride malfunctions.  1 dead, 10-11 injured.
        "The park is not very crowded, and it isn't really the madhouse you
        would expect. There is almost no information available about the
        accident - CMs persist in saying that nobody was hurt, that there
        was a problem with the Mark Twain, or that there are just 'technical
        difficulties' with the attraction.  The guests know something is up,
        partly because there are threehelicopters over the park, but mostly
        they just move on to another area." -Super Moderator on http://mouseplanet.com
        \_ a Mickey Murder
        \_ It's in Yahoo News now.
2003/9/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10051 Activity:nil
        \_ Ugh.  These people WANT a Pax Americana?  I particularly like
           the dictum to "Emulate Second-Century Rome."  Don't these guys
           remember what happened to Rome in the 4th century?
           \- R. Kagan isnt a dumb guy, but he's either sort of blinded
              by some of what he believes or uses a lot of stuff
              disingenuously. I havent had time to process the full
              article but his example where he talks about the
              Scililian Fiasco [search for Glyllipus] is totally
              ridiculous. Obvious, if you have any passing familiarity
              with Thucydides [which of course 90% of the readers wont].
              [in a strage coincidence the real modern expert on this
              is Donald Kagan, who is another crazy right wing nut. note
              also the historian "Erich S. Gruen" R. Kagan refers to
              has an office in Dwinelle. one of berkeley's best lecturers.
           \_ What's wrong with Pax Americana? Or Pax of any sort.
            \_ Cause there ain't no Pax in Pax Americana. -aspo
               \_ Pax Romana was somewhat mislabelled too.  There always will
                  be unhappy fringe elements in any empire.  This does not mean
                  the alternatives (i.e. bloody covert or overt conflicts
                  between major rival powers) are better. -- ilyas
           \- 2nd century AD or BC? take your pick ... --psb
              Cary \& Schullard describe the aftermath as follows:
              ``In other Greek towns they restored the rule of the
              wealthier classes, and they made Corinth safe against
              social revolution by razing it to the ground and selling
              its inhabitants into slavery.''  This was the hard edge
              to the vaunted {\it Pax Romana\/}.
                        --National Identity Myths and the Roman People
              AD: [actually a little earlier, but written ~100]
              ... they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the
              west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they
              covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To
              robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of
              empire; they make a solitude and call it peace.
                               --The Agricola, Speech of [CG]algacus
                The imperial destiny drives hard,
                and fortune has no longer any gift for us
                other than the disunion of our foes.
                               --The Germania
        \_ White Man's burden... I heard that one  before.
           \_ You prefer what?  That muslim fanatics run the world?  Someone
              is going to run the world whether you like it or not.  I prefer
              America run it.
2003/8/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:29377 Activity:very high
8/17    http://www.unknownnews.net/0626-2.html
        So, it seems like you could take almost any retail outlet down
        just by repeatedly asking them "Is this product made in Israel"
        \_ Not really.  But you can certainly make a lot of paperwork for the
           employees that are just there to get by on crap salaries.
        \_ here's the law:
           see section (d) on page 24.
        \_ Great.  Now we can get those racist Abercrombie bastards.
           \_ what are you accusing Abercrombie of exactly?
              \_ Go here: http://www.afjustice.com
                 ! the above poster
2003/8/9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/History/WW2] UID:29291 Activity:nil
8/8 A very informative and alarming RealPlayer video about the revival of
        Communism in Venezuela and Latin America in general.  The first
        45 mins is all that isnecessary. Chavez has been providing air
        support for FARC guerrillas in Colombia.
        \_ oh no!  GASP!  COMMUNISM!  yawn.
                \_ Stalin, Pol Pot, the Stasi, the Cultural Revolution.
                   Yup. Communism is a laughing matter. Go read about
                   the purges, mass killings, prison camps and grow up.
                \_ 20th  Century Democide
                   Communists / Socialists resposible for 120 million deaths
                   last century.
                \_ yeah all that money we spent to crush the soviets and hold
                   them back was wasted.  we just should've explained to them
                   that all we wanted was peace and a mcdonald's in red square
                   and they'd pull the tanks back from eastern europe, free
                   hungary and the czechs and hey what the hell, let the
                   ukranians go, too!  oh wait, all that only happened after
                   our system proved superior to their system and we were on
                   the verge of total war until then and would've been wiped
                   out if we hadn't destoyed them utterly.  i like your
                   deep and well thought out line of reasoning.  you're
                   special.  very special.  special K!
2003/8/8 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29279 Activity:nil
8/7     Kobe's defense " I was just obeying my thirst"
        \_ "I'm an oppressed member of the minority community and this
            racist prosecution shall not stand!  If the glove don't fit,
            you must acquit!  I'm setting up a fund to hire investigators
            to find The Real Rapist!"
2003/7/1 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:28880 Activity:nil
7/01    http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,987933,00.html
        Okay I have a UK report to share too.  This one about lockdown and
        reprogramming of U.S. youths.  I'm sure you'll all be most enthused.
        \_ US youths need re-education.  They need to learn how not to
           be members of criminal gangs and how to read, write, do arithmetic,
           show up to work consistently, and not have kids during teen years.
           \_ RACIST!
           \_ So you probably didn't read the article, which depicts
              brainwashing techniques straight out of Red China.  I agree
              with you regarding what kids should and shouldn't be doing,
              but this definitely isn't the way to acheive it.
           \_ Yup, all US youths are thugz and smooth criminals.  Right.
2003/6/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28830 Activity:high
6/25    Asian-Americans have nothing to celebrate (Michelle Malkin )
        \_ Yea, "diversity" pretty screwed up idea in American politics.
           The only diversity that people can understand is skin color
           while its really a lot more.  If you define diversity
           as characteristics that alter the social makeup of a student
           body, it seems that race is one of the least important factors.
           Stuff like religion, politics, personal experience is significantly
           more important.  But of course no one wants to promote real
           diversity and only their own race's interests.
           diversity but only shaping a school's ethinic makeup.
           Sound familiar?
           \_ Your point being?
           \_ Here is perhaps a more balanced article, written by
              someone asian, about Lowell and race-based admissions:
2003/6/15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28735 Activity:nil
2003/5/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:28477 Activity:nil
5/17    Advantages of working for the primary contributor to the Democratic
        party (along with trial lawyers)
        FL Teachers' Union paid for chief's opulent lifestyle -
        $2,000-a-night suite raised red flags
        \_ that bastard better fry
        \_ It's a freeper link so it should be deleted from the motd.  Free
           speech is only for people who agree with us.
2003/4/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28182 Activity:very high
4/21    Why Laci Peterson gets so much press coverage while others don't:
        http://csua.org/u/d94 (sfgate.com)
        \_ people get touchy about young women who disappear
           in Modesto.
           \_ Yeah.. it really fucks up the sex-slave market...
        \_ What a crackpot.  Laci was Hispanic.  She was also very photogenic
           and had a family working the media circus.  Her killer/husband also
           was a weird story in and of himself.  All that combined for a major
           media story.
        \_ Because she disappeared on Christmas Eve.
        \_ bias: we care more when bad things happen to Pretty women, and thus
           they get more coverage. Elizabeth Smart & J-B Ramsey was a similar
           thing, while other disappeared kids don't get the media attention
           \_ Elizabeth Smart is pretty?  I think she got more coverage
              because her family is rich and made louder voices.
                \_ the smart case got more coverage because it's
                   really weird and fucked up!  crazed lunatic Mormons,
                   weird hermits in the desert, Stockholm syndrome, etc.
                   are you that same guy who was mad the death of
                   reporters in Iraq was covered?
              \_ she is blonde and thin, yes she's pretty
        \_ Sounds to me like the police messed up the earlier case. --dim
        \_ Surprise - women, kids, and esp more attractive ones get media
           attention. lowly men people coudl care less about.
           \_ I certainly don't care about you.
2003/4/15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28132 Activity:nil
4/15    http://www.emdef.org/s226/s226_inserted_s151.pdf
        Full text of the "RAVE" act for those that asked.  It was
        snuck into the "Amber alert" law, because it proved so unpopular
        last year that they couldn't pass it.  Essentially it makes
        virtually all concerts illegal by making it a crime to throw an
        event where people are using drugs, even if you take steps to
        ensure that people are not.  Of course, I'm sure selective
        enforcement will ensure that Great White shows will go on.
2003/4/8 [Politics/Domestic/President, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28028 Activity:high
4/7     Isn't it funny that someone is perfectly ok with being denied entrance
        to a college in favor of people with lower scores, so long as that
        person with lower scores was white?
        http://csua.org/u/c9e (washington post column, free registration, blah
        \_ As much as I hate to take the same of the issue as the knee-jerk
           pseduoconservative facists, this author missed the point.  No one
           got points for being white.  People *did* get points for being
           part of a recognized minority group.  The other bonuses had to
           do with things like participation in athletics, student government
           and social service organizations.  None of these, which the single
           exception of the child-of-alumni credit, has a disctinct racial
           correlation slanted towards white people.  Assuming that the
           comfort or discomfort of this applicant had to do with the race
           of the benefactors is both unfair and unwarranted by anything I
           have heard from her.         -liberal lawyer
                \_ Just curious, are you saying motd conservatives are really
                   faux conservatives, faux fascists, or both?  And if so, how
                   can we be real conservatives, fascists, or both in your
                   liberal lawyer view?  --wannabe pseudoconservative fascist
                \_ I imagine you will get far with this insightful pithy legal
                   rhetoric.  Please post your name / affiliation so others
                   might avoid your services.
        \_ White?  I thought it's usually black or Hispanic.
           \_ No, you fail to understand.  See, she didn't sue when she found
              out that she had lost out to a person with lower scores.  That
              didn't bother her when she thought it was due to some other sort
              of desire the college had (for people with diverse socioeconomic
           he did not mention any of the other criterion for getting "points".
              backgrounds, athletes, etc.).  No, she only sued when she found
              out that she had lost out to people who were black.
           \_ Perhaps she was comfortable with a policy that gave extra
              points to applicants' accomplishments and talents
              as opposed to their ancestry.
              \_ Yeah, as long as they were white!
        \_ Current case law:  You can't use quotas, but you can use race as
           a "factor".  20 points for being black out of 150 points is a
           "factor" but not a quota, so it's legal.
             \_ I love people who can't distinguish between a moral discussion
                and a legal one.  (this includes almost all lawyers). Do you
                plan on becoming a lawyer.  'Cause you already have the mind-set.
                \_ obcookie
        \_ No, it's not funny, or even interesting, at all.  I would wager that
           the majority of people who are against race-based affirmative action
           are in favor of socio-economic affirmative action (at the very least
           as a "reasonable compromise").  Socio-economic AA is not racist,
           whereas race-based AA, ipso facto, is.  What *Is* "funny" is that
           he did not mention any of the other criteria for getting "points".
           I can only assume that this is because if he had people would have
           noticed a difference between judging based on those items and judging
           based on race.  As the individual bringing suit may have as well.
           \_ I disagree with your "ipso-facto."  This is opinion, rather than
              \_ I'm not the original author, but I'll defend the use of
                 the term "ipso-facto".  The immediate clause indicates that
                 race based AA is a racist practice.  This is true, whether
                 you find is morally repugnant or morally just.  Perhaps it
                 the difference is that the latter term has a negative
                 connotation whereas the former may not for some.  Be
                 wary when reframing a statement changes your opinion of it.
                 This typically means you are holding conflicting beliefs
                 and could use a little introspection.
                 \_ Sigh... you're bringing harsh facts into this.  Please,
                    stop now before someone learns something and becomes a
                    better person!  Think of the children!
              fact.  Why is it ok for a school to place importance on elements
              of diversity such a culture, heritage, and socio-economic
              background, but not on ethnicity?  Ethnicity in America is the
              very essence of culture.  To say that race "doesn't
              matter" and "has no bearing" when it clearly DOES have a bearing
              is willfully ignorant of life in America.  But that's just my
              opinion.  By the way, the motd conservatives are way too easy
              to troll.
              \_ The problem is you can't just become black to earn these
                 bonus points.  There are lots of poor people irrespective
                 of what color they are, so it's okay to earn points because
                 you're poor.
                 \_ Do it for the children!  Please stop now!
              \_ Got your point smashed to the sharpness of a dull crayon so
                 you decide to claim you were just trolling all along? Uh huh.
                 Like anyone believes that.  Back to rhetoric 1a for you!
2003/4/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign] UID:28004 Activity:high
4/5     Akamai strikes a blow against the free press:
        \_ Been through this before.  It's a business and one run by a foreign
           government at that.  They have no free press rights even if they
           were a free press and Akamai usage is not in any way required to
           get one's message out to the internet.  You're a stupid troll.
           When you cry murder everytime someone sneezes in your direction, no
           one will come running when it's a killer with a knife.
        \_ Been through this before.  It's a business and one run
           by a foreign government at that.  They have no free press
           rights even if they were a free press and Akamai usage is
           not in any way required to get one's message out to the
           internet.  You're a stupid troll. When you cry murder
           everytime someone sneezes in your direction, no one will
           come running when it's a killer with a knife.
           \_ The caption was a joke.
        \_ Akamai is just trying to keep clear of controversy while they
           look for a buyer.  Their fundamentals suck.
2003/4/5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:28001 Activity:moderate
4/4     http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/05/sprj.irq.sahaf/index.html
        Here's the best line from the article.  I wonder how he plans to
        keep this promise and I wonder what the highly independent Al Jazeera
        has is reporting is going on at the airport:
        "Sahaf said he would take reporters to the airport later in the day,
        after it was cleaned up."
        \_ think poker bluff?
2003/4/4 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27988 Activity:nil
4/3     Oz teens shot in school crossbow attack
        \_ Ban crossbows!
                \_ If you make crossbows criminal, only criminals
                   will use crossbows.
                   \_ True enough.
        \_ I don't know what legitimate reason there is for someone
           to own a crossbow.
                \_ You can take my crossbow when you pry it from my
                   cold dead fingers.
                \_ Guess I'm joining the NCA now.
                \_ Support waiting periods for crossbows!
           \_ Somehow this seems vaugely appropriate:
        \_ If only they'd properly locked up the crossbows, this
           kind of thing wouldn't happen.
           \_ gee, 5 responses by the same 90-column idiot.  -tom
              \_ you seem overly concerned about the motd in a possibly
                 unhealthy way.  have you discussed this with a professional?
2003/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27959 Activity:very high
4/2     Show your opposition to secret courts in the US:
        Oppose knee-jerk "victims' rights" amendment to Constitution
        (especially if you're registered in California)
        \_ Yawn....
           \_ Bush stole my evil rights and all I got was a long dirt nap.
        \_ we doing this for the sake of democracy and human right for all.
           \_ Bush stole my civil rights and all I got was a long nap.
              \_ Blah blah blah blah blah.  Whatever.  This whole thing is
                 just troll bait from the start.
2003/3/29 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27901 Activity:nil
3/28    Additional info about Rachel Corrie (lost the person vs. bulldozer
        contest a while ago, picture link was posted here)
        If you don't like it, ignore it.  Don't delete it.
        \_ obhowcanyoubereadingworldnetdaily
           \_ I read (and check) the facts.  I also read Molly Ivins.  So?
           \_ I've read pretty much the same thing from several other sources.
              You think NPR is a better source of unbiased news?  How about
              Pravda?  They publish Pravda in English on the net now, but you
              probably knew that already.
              \_ obhowcanyoubereadingworldnetdaily
        \_ Please stop deleting this you hoser. -emarkp
2003/3/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:27703 Activity:high
3/14    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25844-2003Mar14.html
        It's true.  Why can't he say it without them coming down on him and
        ruining his career?  What are they afraid of?
        \_ Compare and contrast to how Lott was treated.  Moran is a Dem.
           \_ Lott lost his position of leadership but kept his seat.  Now
              Moran has lost his position of leadership but kept his seat.
              He got lambasted in the "What the hell were they thinking"
              section on "Washington Week" on PBS yesterday, just like Lott.
              What's the contrast, aside from Lott having a cooler position
              to lose?
              \_ The difference is what Lott said was vicious and evil.  What
                 Moran said is simply the truth they're trying to suppress.
                 \_ Lott was simply giving accolades to Strom Thurmond.  His
                    comment was completely neutral - but the race baiters,
                    apparently like yourself, took it an ran for political
                    gain.  Nevertheless, I was glad to see him go because
                    he was completely ineffectual.
                    he was completely ineffectual.  Let's not forget the
                    South was solidly democrat until the past two decades.
                    Thurmond was a democrat when he ran for President.
                    \_ Either way, the parties should throw out people like
                    Lott. These racist bigots were first hiding out in the
                    Democratic party, now the Republican party. It's time
                    that neither party should support idiots like this.
        \_ Yeah, I mean look at all the shit that Byrd gets away with.
        \_ Lott is now currently chair on a pretty fucking scary committee
           having to do with security and homeland defense policies.  Can
           we say Jim Crow II?  Well i guess southern white guys must be
           happy now.
           \_ Yeah, this will happen. Just as likely as time travel. Can we
              look FORWARD and not backwards without making stupid comparisons?
           \_ Aren't they happy after they fingerbang their sister?
              \_ But now they're more righteous when they do it.
        \_ Didn't a Republican Senator say this very same thing last week?
           \_ no.
           \_ most likely, but he didn't happen to be on camera at the time.
2003/3/5-6 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27606 Activity:very high
3/5     http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq-usa-shirt.html
        \_ It's unfortunate that both NYT and CNN are running the same
           Reuters article since that article doesn't mention anything
           about the resulting demonstrations and protests after this arrest.
           \_ Protest what?  There is no freedom of speech in private
                   enterprises you twit.  A private business can choose
                   its customers.
              enterprises you twit.  A private business can choose its
              customers.  Here's the unbiased article title: 'Belligerent lawyer
              arrested for trespassing'
              \_ are you that stupid?  Ever see a mall with a sign that says "no
                 niggers allowed"?  Or "colored only drinking fountain"?  If the
                 place is open to the public, it's subject to all the
                 laws/regulations just like public land.
                  \_ Wearing a tshirt does not fall under the jurisdiction of
                     equal protection, twit.  Please don't argue about the
                     Constitution from a position of complete ignorance - you
                     make yourself look stupid.  But maybe thats inevitable.
                     Under your logic, maybe we should now extend special
                     protection for crimes against people wearing certain
                     tshirts, and maybe relaxed admission policies or hiring
                     practices for those who wear the politically correct
              \_ It's their right to toss the guy out (if a bit pathetic), but
                 the way they treated him was pretty pathetic.
2003/2/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27335 Activity:nil
2/6     Dems to Miguel Estrada: You're Not Hispanic Enough
2003/2/4 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27302 Activity:high
2/3     What's the difference between a murder and a slaying?
        \_ it depends on who is killing who.  If it's an israeli killing a
           palestinian or any other muslim, it's self-defense 100% of the
           time.  Or revenge for the holocaust, an-eye-for-an-eye vengence
           the Torah preaches.
           \_ Bad troll, no cookie.
              \_ I was going to say that.  Drat.  Beat to the obvious again.
                 I'll get "first 'Bad troll' post" next time.  --too slow
        \_ Are you talking about the English words or the legal definitions?  I
           think in US state laws there're usually 1st/2nd degree murder and
           1st/2nd degree manslaughter only.
        \_ A murderer murders. Slayer rocks.
        \_ a murder is the killing of an innocent. A slaying is simply a
           (usually brutal) killing, often in association with other killings
           (mass or repeated killing is more apt to be referred to as slaying).
           Or so says me anyway.  (though i also like the above def.) -crebbs.
           \_ Your definitions suck ass.
               \_ hmm., well, that hurts coming from someone so obviously
                  intelligent and knowledgeable as yourself. -crebbs
2003/1/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27256 Activity:high
1/30    A cold shower
        http://csua.org/u/8ab (libertarian blather)
        \_ I seem to remember reading this on the wall of top dog.
        \_ Thomas Sowell is Black conservative at Stanford.
2003/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27165 Activity:nil
1/20    Re: Illinois Governor cleared death row.  Here's a shining example of
        the error of what he did:
        Or search for "Fedell Caffey" and "Jacqueline Williams"
        Here's the skinny:
        "Together these two committed three of the most grisly killings
        imaginable. In 1995 they shot and killed a pregnant woman, Debra Evans.
        The Tribune said they then used a pair of scissors to slice her
        'full-term baby from her womb.' But even then they weren't through.
        Caffey and Williams kidnapped Evans' other children, a 10-year-old
        daughter and a 7-year-old son, and hacked both children to death."
        \_ Obviously they were molested as children, have anger management and
           control issues to work through and haven't been given a real chance
           by society.  They need help, not the chair!
           \_ Ah, typical conservative soda drivel.  Oh my god, there might
              have been a couple of cases where someone really did deserve
              to die, so let's kill about 20-30 innocent people along the
              way.  If they were really innocent anyway, they'd be able
              afford good lawyers like OJ did.
              \_ No, more like, let's not throw the baby out with the bath
                 water.  How about the idiot governor doing his fucking job
                 and looking at each case instead of the PR grabbing free-them-
                 all crap?
                 \_ He's no idiot.  This politician is buying votes.
              \_ Oh my god, there might have been a couple of cases where
                 some guilty people didn't really deserve to die, so let's
                 free about 20-30 death-deserving guilty people from
                 execution along the way.  If they really deserve to die
                 anyway, they ... oh wait ... er ... they'll eventually die
                 when they get old.
           \_ Joking aside, my wife is 6 months along with our second child.
              These monsters need the chair. -emarkp
              \_ "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye not be
                  judged"  --The Book of Mormon,  3 Nephi 14
              \_ Or keep them in prison for life, which is probably cheaper
                 because of the legal fees required to put someone to death.
                 \_ put lawyers to death
                 \_ It's made expensive artificially.  That's no reason.
              \_ Yeah, because now people such as them would otherwise think
                 twice before murdering your wife and unborn child.
           \_ I hope your wife and kids are next.
              \_ It Takes A Village
           \_ can't we all just get along?
              \_ It Takes A Village
                 \_ Yermom knows.
2003/1/20 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27155 Activity:nil
1/19    I prefer to align my politics with people *really* in the know on
        these sorts of things:
2003/1/17-18 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27136 Activity:very high
1/16    Wen Ho Lee, spy:http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030117-69476482.htm
        \_ You only say that because you are racist!
           \_ I'm a racist.  He's still a spy.
        \_  "The FBI paid for Mrs. Lee's travel to China with her husband, and
            helped pay entertainment expenses when the couple hosted visits to
            the United States by Chinese nuclear scientists." intersting article
        \_ let's put this to rest
           \_ You don't care that top secret high quality nuclear secrets are
              being stolen by other countries??
        \_ Judge Parker's apology :
           \_ Of course this ignores the entire point of the link which is that
              the FBI intentionally fucked up the case against him so the judge
              didn't have the full body of truth before him when he said this.
              Don't ever let the truth get in the way of your agenda.
        \_ Yea, sure, book by Trulock is going to be so unbiased.
           This guys is just so eager to advance his career, he
           is willing to use Lee as a stepping stone.  Glad that
           it blew up in his face.
           \_ If it's untrue, prove it.  If it's lies, he'll get sued and lose
              which would be terribly stupid of him.
2003/1/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27072 Activity:insanely high
1/11    So much for conservatives saying the democrats are the ones
        who are "soft on crime":
        \_ He's a RINO and asshole.  He is under invetigation by the Justice
           Dept.  He's a Daley democrat with an R after his name.  Conservatism
           is about ideas - not politicians.
           htit's own
        \_ Here is a man who has no political future.  In his tenure,
           13 innocent people were nearly killed by the state, but
           exonerated.  He's asked for death penalty reform before,
           but was denied by the legislature.  Regardless of how you
           feel about being "soft on crime", he's obviously doing
           what he thinks is right.
           \_ And trashing the rule of law and will of the voters of the state.
              Investigation in borderline cases might be a good idea, but carte
              blanche commutation is reckless and hurtful--now families of
              people horribly murdered will have to wonder for years if the
              killer of their loved one will somehow get out of jail.  Nice job
              \_ their death sentences were commuted w/o possibility of
                 \_ Again: See the case of Robert Lee Massie here in CA for an
                    example of how this can be a problem.
          \_ several people on Illinois death row were found to
             be innocent and released.  I bet there's at least one
             more innocent guy on DEATH FUCKING ROW.  that sucks.
              \_ As governor he has the right to commute sentences.  How is
                 that trashing the rule of law?  As for the will of voters
                 in the state: a "hard on crime" constituency should not
                 be able to create a system to kill people of dubious guilt.
                 \_ The people of Illinois have decided that they want to have
                    the death penalty applied in their state.  By commuting
                    *all* of the death row convicts, he has ignored their will.
                    If he were that interested in the issue, he should have
                    issued an executive order to have all of the death row cases
              \_ Bummer--they got convicted by a jury of their peers, and then
                 didn't get the conviction turned over in any of the (likely)
                 many appeals.  Color me unimpressed.
2002/12/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26924 Activity:very high
12/27   http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27279375
        Rael UFO cult clones human. According to the above news link, a raelian
        woman has actually given birth to a human clone yesterday.
        heres a link to the cult website:
        http://www.rael.org  it seems to be down right now, however.
        \_ It's all over the place.  You don't need hokey unheard of sites to
           read about it.  There's also no proof yet.
           \_ more normal link added to appease whiner.
              \_ wanting a real news source is not whining.  you want me to
                 direct you to my personal website for real news?  i think not.
                 you'd find it equally questionable.  and there's still no
                 proof clonaid created a real clone, dolly style.  (it's like
                 "duh i read it on the net, it must be true!!!!")
                 \_ You're too good for Reuters?  You're so l337, duud.
                    \_ http://alertnet.org?  Whatever.  If it doesn't have a real url
                       from a real source, it's suspect.  And no in general
                       reuters is biased crap.  youd see that if you read it
                       with a critical eye and questioned the material instead
                       of swallowing it like a sheep.
                       \_ How is reuters any more biased than any other news
                          source in the whole fucking world?  If you had any
                          idea what a critical eye is, you would have avoided
                          looking so stupid here by actually looking for more
                          info on this yourself instead of abusing the OP with
                          your nonsense.  And, if you would, please point out
                          where the original article posted is biased.
                          \_ Idiot, I had already read other news sources long
                             before the OP posted here.  It doesn't even take
                             a mildly critical eye to note I said the news was
                             already all over the place.  You're an idiot and
                             only look that much more stupid falsely accusing
                             someone of something they're not guilty of but
                             *you* are.  Sheesh, motd posters.  And the article
                             is *still* just about some nutty cult making some
                             claims.  Nothing is proved.  Come back when some
                             one reputable has verified it.
2002/12/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26904 Activity:high
12/24   Finally, an attempt at necessary theatre.  Why can't the SF theatre
        community do stuff like this:
        \_ Too creative and no one in the US has the gumption to do it.
           \_ Um, maybe you can clarify for me because I'm not quite clear
              on how this is either creative or ballsy.
              \_ If you tried something like this in the US, your theatre
                 would get firebobmed.
                 would get firebombed.
                 \_ oh please, no one would give a shit, really.  get over
                    your "i hate america" thing and join reality.  americans
                    are more than used to the 'arts community' being stupid
                    and tasteless in an effort to get noticed.
                    \_ why do you put arts community in quotes?  Do you
                       not believe that it actually involves arts?  Or do
                       you not think it's an actual community?
                       \_ I always put it in quotes whenever anyone refers to
                          the "xyz community".  It implies unity and a measure
                          of conformity that doesn't exist.
                       \_ You sound like a wise man.  Take heed of God's wisdom:
                          "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but
                          the lips of the wise shall preserve them."
                          Proverbs 14:3
                    \_ You've never left the state, have you?  What did you
                       do come straight from Temple in Moscow to here?  Go
                       back to russia, jew.
                       \_ You sound like a wise man.  Take heed of God's
                          wisdom:  "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of
                          pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve
                          them."  Proverbs 14:3
                          \_ I love the bible quotes.  You just pirate the
                             bible software thing off usenet?
        \_ Because the SF theater community isn't completely f*cked up.
2002/12/19 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:26857 Activity:nil
12/19   I know the story about Trent Lott, but what about Tom Daschle?
        someone live outside of US and still tryingto keep up
        \_ He was very quick to downplay Lott's remarks, which IMO was
           the wrong thing to do.  Since Thurmond and Helms retired, Lott
           was the last of the Dixiecrats left.  On top of that, he's the
              \- hello, you may wish to google for "Robert Byrd Klan" --psb
                 \_ touche.
           senate majority leader.  What he said was inexcusable.  The
           bigotry expressed by it (which all the analysts say this is
           not about) is also inexcusable.  TD should have taken him to
           task on this.  When Lott's own party uses stronger words with
                \- this is the product of the idiotic "comity" in the senate
                   and on many executive boards ... because of social and
                   friendly ties, people get away with murder ... why
                   actually enforce your fiduciary duty when it might get
                   you dropped from some currupt bastards xmas card list ...
                   besides, he helped your idiot progeny get into harvard
                   law school. people should have been spitting on people
                   like Jesse Helms and made him a pariah. same for Ted
                   Kennedy. ollie north for senate. --psb
           Lott than Daschle does, he shows himself as offstep. --scotsman
           \_ Note: Lott is the top Republican in Senate while Daschle is
              the top Democrat. Lots of talk of Daschle being ineffective.
           \_ Thanks scotsman. It really helped.  Gosh, I like TD too...
              I would of chose him as our president..
              \_  would _have_ chosen him....
2002/12/18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:26846 Activity:nil
12/17   So did the thief ever get his goods from another csua-er willing to
        self-identify as a criminal?
2002/12/5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26722 Activity:high
12/5    The motd: An opportunity for the cowardly to pretend that words
        don't have consequences. An example of the arrogantly opinionated
        leading the willfully ignorant. People who take umbrage at falsely
        being accused of murder, amorality, pedophilia, kleptomania,
        drug-taking, wife-abuse, and being traitors simply don't understand
        the playful manner of the entertainers involved. See also: "Fair
        and Balanced Reporting."
        \_ how can i slander an anonymous person? - dnah
        \_ hey freep-man, i just saw a leader of the liberal
           media, peter jennings speak, i wish i could have emailed
           you to show up. - dnah
        \_ you forgot racism, stupidity, and being liberal
        \_ And your point is...?
2002/12/3 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26699 Activity:high
12/3    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/topstory/1685833
        "Mr. Black definitely has some young people he doesn't like, and the
        feeling is definitely mutual," McClelland said. "But citizens still
        can't arm themselves to enforce the law."
        If the police can't or won't do it then why not?
        \_ http://us.imdb.com/Title?0070355
           \_ perfect.
        \_ Because armed assault without a badge will get you time.
           \_ You have a right to defend yourself.  It is established legally
              that the cops are not in any way responsible for stopping crime,
              keeping you safe from criminals or any other pre-crime events.
              They are only required to take a report and maybe try to arrest
              the criminals after you're dead.  I'd rather take my chances in
              court with a jury of my peers than take my chances on the well
              wishing of the criminal in my home.  How about you?
2002/12/1 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26683 Activity:nil
12/1    http://www.cjr.org/year/81/4/scaife.asp
        Yes, Scaife has donated 100s of millions to the far right and
        this was already by 1981.
        \_ are you going to provide some kind of context for this?
           are you replying to some post that got deleted, or am i
           just to dumb to understand why we all have a burning need
           to know about some rich guy's philanthropic interests from the
           early 80's?
           \_ It is in reply to a long and ongoing debate about right wing
              influence in the media. The subject has been debated in the
              motd numerous times. Scaife is still around and still doing
              the same thing, but with even more money.
              \_ See my full reply below.  In short though, "BFD".
        \_ My answer is "so what?"  What's the value of the free air time the
           left has given itself through ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN for the last few
           decades?  It's a hell of a lot more than 1 man has donated to create
           a few think tanks and foundations to support what he believes in.
           This is still the US of A.  He has a first amendment right to spend
           his money to get his views aired in public.  I still don't
           understand why you think this make it some sort of grand conspiracy
           and is somehow unfair to the left who has owned the major media
           outlets for decades.  I'd trade you what Scaife has done for the
           control you leftist have over TV and newspapers and I'd kick in an
           extra $10 for your lunch on top of it.  Is this one of those things
           where the left believes only the left is allowed access to free
           speech and the media to get their message out and it's somehow a
           crime or illegal for the right to get any of that (even though the
           left gets it for free and the right has to pay for it because the
           major media outlets are so staunchly left biased)?
           \_ when almost everything on the "news" media is weather, sports,
              advertisements and fluff pieces about a drowning puppy, i
              don't see how either side can seriously say there is much
              of a political bias. how can there be a political bias
              where there is almost no serious coverage of politics?
              if you went looking for a bias between chevy and ford or coke
              and pepsi, you'd actually have some statistics.  but democrat
              vs. republican? hah!
           \_ non-troll, but curious:  where does it say in the First
              Amendment that we're guaranteed the right to spend our money
              to spread our political/religious/whatever views?
           \_ Where did you get the idea that large corporations like
              GE and Microsoft are leftist?
              \_ dict paranoia
        \_ Why is this even debated... 70-80%+ journalists admit
           their party affiliation is Democrat, as do 90+% academics.
           The news is slanted to sell corporations and products,
           that is the only non-left bias.
           \_ Where do you get these numbers? All the studies I have
              seen journalists "admit" to being centrist.
                \_ I post such stories and studies ad nauseum.
                   Inevitably they are deleted rapidly.  I'm not going
                   to dig them up again.  Just do a search or spend
                   some time on conservative web sites.
                   The news is generated in New York and LA, can you get
                   any more liberal?  Here's a start on Goldberg's
2002/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign] UID:26527 Activity:very high
11/13   In light of the pending sniper trial, do public defenders have
        to defend someone even if it is against their will? Are they
        assigned to a trial, or do they choose it themselves?
        \_ everyone, even mass murderers, deserve a fair trial
           in this country.  anyway i'm sure there are plenty
           of lawyers out there who would love to take
           such a high profile trial.  no they don't choose.
        \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of
           law enforcement.  -John
        \_ everyone, even mass murderers, deserve a fair trial in this
           country.  anyway i'm sure there are plenty of lawyers out there who
           would love to take such a high profile trial.  no they don't choose.
           \_ "deserve", or "are required to receive?"
              \_ ...when the government feels like it.  ever heard of
                 Kevin Mitnick?
                 \_ What about him?  You're not one of those whining Mitnick
                    defenders who bought his line are you?  RIDE BIKE!
                 \_ Mitnick got due process.  He's also a fucking egotistical
                    moron.  What's your point?
              \_ There is only a requirement for competent representation and
                 that standard is very objective. There is no requirement for
                 effective representation.
2002/10/3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26086 Activity:very high
10/2    http://csua.org/u/36e
        See, that's what's wrong with America. An entreprenuer tries to
        make a little money by starting his own business with some willing
        adults and the whiney liberal trial lawyers screw it up for him.
        \_ It's called exploitation.  Would it be right for you to ask
           a homeless woman to have sex with you if you gave her a sandwich
           in return?  We have laws against that.
                \_ That's pretty sick all right.  Ewww.
            \_ How do you feel about Professional boxing?  Should Don King
               be arrested as well?  I know tom thinks it's o.k. 'cause The
               Man gave Don's org a license.  How about you?
               Also, if some homeless woman wants to trade her body so she
               DOESN'T STARVE TO DEATH, It sure is a good thing there
               are people like you around to make sure she isn't "forced"
               to do anything as horrible as having sex.
               \_ No one is this country has starved to death since the
                  depression.  Try again.
        \_ Ah yes, the ambulance chasing lawyers read the net, too.
        \_ Maybe they can sneak a video cam in to prison and produce
           Prison Fights.
           \_ Want to star in my new movie?  You and 1000 felons.  I'm
              calling it Prison Rape.
        \_ everything else aside, only in america would this happen. you
           don't find this fucked up behavior like this in any other country.
           \_ No, you find much worse, like death squads, people going to vote
              risking their lives to do so, UN sanctioned slavery, stonings
              for a long list of 'moral' violations, etc.  Take the Blame
              America First crap somewhere else where they don't know better.
2002/9/5 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:25773 Activity:high
9/4     Environmentalist Quotes
        'We, in the green movement, aspire to a cultural model in which
        killing a forest will be considered more contemptible and more
        criminal than the sale of 6-year-old children to Asian brothels.'
        \_ what's your favorite kind of fishing?
        \_ That's old news.  That's why real conservatives hate you freeper
           types.  You make us all look like looneys with your rehashed ancient
           and extremist quotes.  We all know the extreme left are insane.
           You're just like them but on the extreme right.  You deserve each
           other.  Please go away.  --A Real Conservative (who hates freepers)
2002/8/22 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Transportation/Car] UID:25651 Activity:very high
8/21    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1540867
        "It was like, `Kill them all and let God sort them out,' " said
        the other supervisor. "I guess we're just lucky he didn't order us
        to fire warning shots into the crowd or anything."
        \_ URL worthiness meter to save yall time:
           worthless:  .............
           \_ Since when is the motd about saving time?
        \_ Aw, lovely Houston.  This is another reason to stay the hell
           away from Texas and the south.
        \_ just a bunch of pigs measuring their little weenies
        \_ If any of you jackasses had actually read anything about it, you'd
           know it was the result of one cop who making a bad decision, but
           of course it isn't necessary around here to actually know wtf you're
           talking about to have a valid opinion.
           \_ Tell us all about it, then, master of obscure Texas local news.
              \_ Dude.  Be serious.  Its an exercise in simple reading
                 comprehension.  The captain in charge of the operation made
                 an unbeliveably bad call when circumstances were beginning to
                 show that the raid was going to be fruitless.  The "Kill
                 them all" quote is taken so horribly out of context it
                 conveys almost nothing about the actual events that took
                 place.  Try reading the article.          -mice
                 \_ I dunno. It reads like a miniature version of the 1000+
                    folks arrested as possible terrorists by the Feds, held
                    without access to lawyers and denied Constitutional rights.
                    Even now as the Fed raid is proving fruitless, no one is
                    taking any blame for it. In the Texas case, hundreds of
                    folks have a criminal record for being at the wrong spot
                    at the wrong time. I hate to see the lawsuits that are
                    going to come from both of these instances...
                    \_ Oh they do not have a crimincal record.  This is just
                       a load of hyperbole crap.  "Oh! Oh! Come see the
                       violence inherent in the system!  Help! Help! I'm
                       being oppressed!  The sky is falling!"  When *everying*
                       is constitution ripping oppression and everything is
                       racist and everything is sexist and blah blah blah then
                       you dilute the power of the words so there's nothing
                       left to distinguish *real* oppression and racism and
                       sexism from this sort of endless whining.  Get over it.
                       \_ i believe the monty python quote you are aiming
                          for is "help! help! I'm being repressed!"
                          perhaps you were just intending to paraphrase
                          monty python, and can be excused.
                          Any future crimes can be checked against their
                          official arrest record. It's not hyperbole, it can
                          be used against them later on.
                       \_ They were arrested. That is an official criminal
                          record. If the charge is tossed out by the judge,
                          that part of the record is purged, however part of
                          the arrest process is fingerprinting and photos.
                          The government now has this info to do what they
                          want with it. Employers requesting police records
                          as a job/security check may require the person has
                          to explain away the arrest. It's a pain.
                          \_ That's certainly true, but the stupidity
                             displayed by the man in charge is not unique
                             to Texas.  Stupidity of his sort is pretty
                             universally available.  That seems to be the
                             origin of this thread: that 'lovely Houston'
                             is somehow the issue and not one man's idiocy.
                             Of course, I'm starting to come off as an
                             apologist for Texas, which I'm not.  really.
                \_ I did read it, but then someone who called me a jackass
                   claimed there was more to it, so I had to ask.
                   \_ Read it again and see the violence inherent in the
                      system, jackass.
        \_ Yeah, but what does FreeRepublic have to say about it?
           \_ Who?
           \_ Go there and find out.
2002/8/9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25531 Activity:nil 60%like:25533
8/9     Koreans and microwavable dogmeat:
2002/7/3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:25269 Activity:nil
7/2     Court-martialed for refusing to wear UN uniform... (old story)
2002/6/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:25025 Activity:kinda low
6/7     Now that Department of Home Land Security is formally established,
        shouldn't we change "Department of Defense" to
        "Department of Offense," since it is all DoD does anyway?
        \_ The best offense is a good defense?
        \_ As you know it used to be Department of War.
        \_ DoD is the Dept. of External Defense, DoHLS is the Dept.
           of Internal Defense (AKA the Secret Police)
        \_ I guess this was an attempt at trolling but whatever.  The military
           spends most of it's time polishing boots and waxing hood ornaments.
           If you want to spew you'll have to do better than this.
        \_ what's the difference. It's just like working in a company. You
           get a big reorg, a few bosses are hired or fired but most of the
           stuff is still the same. Different name, same crap.
2002/5/26 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:24947 Activity:nil
5/25    Drugs, Russia and Terrorism
        Why We Didn't Listen to Golitsyn
2002/5/5 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:24715 Activity:nil
5/4     Attorney General Edwin Meese III explained why the Supreme Court's
        Miranda decision (holding that subjects have a right to remain
        silent and have a lawyer present during questioning) is unnecessary:
        "You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime.  That's
        contradictory.  If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a
                -- U.S. News and World Report, 10/14/85
2002/5/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:24697 Activity:kinda low
5/3     http://salon.com/news/wire/2002/05/03/commandments/index.html
        \_ District Judge weighs in on the seperation of Church & State
        \_ Yeah she ruled the poor babies "endured unwelcome contact" with
           the 10 commandments.  Gosh.  I wish I could sue anytime I "endured
           unwelcome contact" with something.  That's a hell of a standard for
           constitutional law.
           \_ I wish some teacher would lead each class with a hearty
              "Hail Satan" just to see you fundies cry bloody murder.
              \_ And they'd be right to do so and I'd support them in that
                 for what _should_ be obvious reasons.  --real atheist
2002/5/1 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24657 Activity:high
5/1     Happy May Day!  Woohoo!  Let's celebrate the rise of communism and
        the oppression and murder of millions!
        \_ mayday predates communism. go away.
           \_ Yup, it's been around since the 13th century, according to
              Webster Dict.
                \_ http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/mayday.html has a
        \_ http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/mayday.html has a nice
           little ditty at the end plus some history.  It's all communism.
                   nice little ditty at the end plus some history.  It's all
        \_ I prefer to celebrate the 8 hour work day, fool.
        \_ Is this May Day the same "May Day" that a pilot calls out on the
           radio when the plane is in trouble?
           \_ No.  The pilot is using a French phrase that literally means
            "Help Me".
             \_ How do you spell it?  Why did it beat out "Help"?
                \_ Aidez-moi.
                   \_ That's not pronounced "Mayday." Google is your friend.
                      (and the version that's pronounced as "mayday" by english
                      speakers is "m'aider")
                      \_ Yes, but "m'aider" doesn't make sense as a French
                         command for "help me." Unless you mean "Venez
2002/3/24 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:24214 Activity:nil
3/23    Local black teenagers attack exclusively white, asian, and indian
        college students. NPR and the local community rally around the
        perpatrators, including a bake sale for their defense. Gotta love NPR.
        \_ your ignorance is adorable.
           \_ Your bigotry is less adorable.
2002/3/10-11 [Health/Men, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:24068 Activity:high
3/9     hey, rand-heads!  if i'm going to read one ayn rand book, which
        one should i read?
        \_ Ayn Rand Ate My Balls
        \_ the forward to _fountainhead_, where rand proudly proclaims
           how many publishers turned away her tripe after recognizing
           it for just that is a gem.  almost everything that makes rand
           so horrible yet so hard to avoid in that macabre sense shines
           through in it so well that i would almost say that you should
           read it over _atlas shrugged_ (though the only rand i've read
           is _fountainhead_.)  i just hope you have a transpacific flight
           to waste on it as i did.
        \_ _Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature_, Nyquist.
           _The Ayn Rand Cult_, Walker
        \_ Fountain Shrugged
        \_ I decided 2 years ago to read one of her SciFi books. I was told
           to read either _Fountainhead_ or _Atlas Shrugged_.  I read
           _Atlas Shrugged_ and let me tell you it sucked.  It sucked bad,
           and this is coming from a libertarian, pro-capitalist, greed-head,
           logical-positivist with "objectivist" tendencies.  Unless you don't
           mind being preached at over and over again with the same spiel,
           phrased the same, ad nauseum, i'd advise avoiding Ayn.  At least
           you should avoid her poor Science Fiction; _The Romantic Manifesto_
           is her treatise on aesthetics (which i read years ago) and is much
           less annoying as it is not mislabeled as entertainment. It is also
           more entertaining as, instead of knocking down straw men, she
           argues that only art that is "uplifting" can be truly great (a
           sentiment that I can't imagine any reasonable person agreeing
           with.) -crebbs
                        \- i read some essays by AR and my reactions included:
                           1. yes preacy but also condescending
                           2. most of it was facile
                           3. what was original was stolen [and often not
                              awknowledged], e.g the apollonian and dyonisian
                              stuff. better read other people on almost every
                              issue she touches on. e.g. R. Nozick: Anarchy,
                              State & Utopia, or R. Posner, or even Nietzsche.
                              Of course most Randroids are not tall enough for
                              those books.
                           4. Randroids are not (actually) interested in ideas
                              but justification.
                           5. ok tnx. --psb
           \_ She lost touch with reality LONG before she wrote her books.
              \- maybe putting kerosene in her hair had some long term effects.
                 so are there any people who like heinlein but not rand?
                 i think he is a comparable lemur. ok tnx. --psb
                 \_ I like (a lot of) Heinlein, agree with crebbs
                    re: _Atlas Shrugged_.  Heinlein at his best is a lot
                    more intellectually honest.   You'll probably find a
                    number of people on rec.arts.sf.written with a similar
                    opinion.  -- goldfarb
                 \_ I like Heinlein but not Rand, Heinlein's stories are
                    entertaining whether or not you like his politics, and
                    he makes likable characters. Rand's characters taste
                    like cardboard.
                 \_ Heinlein was my favorite SciFi guy when i was a teen.
                    Although their politics/philosophy is similar (not the
                    same mind you) the similarities end there. RAH is a science
                    fiction author who is political.  Rand is a "philosopher"
                    who writes novels. Their writing is not similar at all.
                    (o.k. they both have ridiculously idealized leading
                    characters, but so do Clint Eastwood movies). Margaret
                    Atwood is more similar to Ayn even though their politics
                    are not at all similar.  Both Ayn and Margaret care (it
                    seems to me anyway) much more about preaching their point
                    than in the story they are telling. Disclaimer: I have only
                    ever read _The Handmaid's Tale_ by M.A. and it was not
                    without redeeming qualities and was better than _A S_, it
                    just wasn't good. Finally, psb, what have you got against
                    lemurs?  -crebbs
           \_ Who told you Fountainhead was scifi?
        \_ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~andrej/objectivism
           \_ this page is full of more non-sense than /.
              \_ The difference is, the people on /. are serious.
        \_ What is the big deal with Ayn Rand? I tried to read her books
           and they were *boring* and seemingly devoid of content.
           \_ Ayn Rand promises all the answers.  People find that compelling.
           \_ objectivists are ignorant.
              \_ Everyone is ignorant. You are an ignorant idiot
                 -Chad C. Mulligan
                \_ You are John Brunner and I claim my 5 pounds. -- goldfarb
2002/2/28 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/History/WW2] UID:23994 Activity:very high
2/27    What's the best way to go about asking for nice keyboards and trays
        from your boss? And yes my wrists really hurt.
        \_ "My wrists are starting to hurt.  I need a better keyboard."
           They shouldn't take offense to that.
           \_ and if they do take offense, go to a doctor and try "My doctor
              says I'm permanently injured because of you, so I'll buy
              myself a new keyboard and tray with my huge worker's comp
              settlement."  -tom
           \_ Or you could do what a normal and reasonable person would do
              and just patiently explain to them it's a serious issue and
              you're "certain that the company doesn't want me to end up
              crippled and unable to work" because that'll get the point across
              without making you look like an asshole.  Also once you start
              making noise about lawyers you need to put up or shutup and
              you're fucking up your future at that job and any place else you
              run into those people in the future at other companies.  After
              that you're not good for anything but working for the government
              or university or maybe some lab.  Just be nice about it.
                \_ what's wrong with government jobs? It's laid back and
                   there isn't a lot of overtime. I get to bike as much as
                   I want.
                   \_ See! That's just evil! You should be overworked and
                      suffering emotionally and physically to achieve the
                      American Dream(tm). That's what is right!
                      \_ From each according to his means.  To each according
                         to his need.  Overall, the wealth of the society is
                         better shared in communist and most socialist nations
                         than in the capitalist west.  People are happier
                         \_ how much time did you spend in russia before
                            the fall of the soviet union? how much time
                            did you spend in China before the reforms of the
                            '80s?  if life was so much better in the
                            Communist Bloc, why did they have guard towers
                            and razor wire all along the beach in Tallin to
                            keep people from fleeing to Finland?
                            ok, i just re-read your reply.  you're a troll.
                            sorry, i'm the moron..
                            \_ Because those people were unwilling to share
                               with others.  They were selfishly trying to
                               destroy the system.  It only works if everyone
                               wants it to, the same as any other system.
        \_ whatever you do, take care of your health. if you get hurt,
           claim workman's comp, etc. you make your value in the workforce
           worthless for all practical purposes. if someone tries to hire
           you, their insurance rates will skyrocket. they will prob hire
           someone else, instead.
        \_ wrist pads are cheap at CompUSA or Fry's or Internet
           Likewise for the other stuff. Now if you asking for an adjustable
           desk like the professors have or being able to drill holes
           in the furniture or a reasonable chair, you may wish to
           contact your friendly local Ergonomics department. What?
           Your company is so small and so tech-unsavvy that they
           don't have either an onsite dept or bring in periodic
           consultants? Well,  I don't know then.
           [You're vs. Your correction motd god was here]
           \_ "the professors" at Berkeley, except in departments with more
              money than they know what to do with (EECS), have terrible
              ergonomic setups.  Most are using WWII Navy-surplus Steelcase
              desks as computer desks.  -tom
              \_ Too bad the T-buildings are gone.  Nothing was better than
                 using WWII military surplus in a WWII military "T"emporary
                 \_ we have new T-buildings at Hearst Gym now.  -tom
                    \_ Yeah but they're not from 3 or 4 wars ago.  It's just
                       not the same....  -T building lover
              \_ don't speak too soon, tom.
                \_ what?  -tom
        \_ If you really feel you are injuring yourself, buy whatever supplies
           you need with your own money.  The amount of money will be trivial
           in terms of the amount of suffering you are sparing yourself.  Then
           you can take your special keyboard and mouse with you to your next
           job when you leave.  -ax [motd formatd god was here]
        \_ When I needed to raise the monitor, I just used two packs of 8.5x11
           paper thinking that it costs much less than a monitor stand and just
           works as well.  One day my manager saw that, and he felt sorry and
           automatically got me a monitor stand.  I didn't intend to make him
           feel guilty, but he just did it himself.  So it depends on your
           luck with what kind of manager or finance department you have.
           \_ protecting people from injury is just good business.  Any
              manager that doesn't see that needs to be awakened in an
              abrupt and painful manner.  -tom
           \_ As Tom said.  Figure the cost of a $15 stand vs. the potential
              liability.  You think you were doing the company a favor.  You
              weren't.  A lame-o monitor stand means *nothing* in the overall
              budget.  It's petty pocket change.  Don't be a martyr.  No one
              likes a martyr.
              \_ Well, on the other hand I requested the most expensive anti-
                 radiation anti-glare Polaroid brand screen filter that I could
                 find in the supply catalog, because a cheaper one doesn't work
                 as well.  So I wasn't really a martyr.  It all depends on
                 whether or not a cheap alternative works as well as the
                 conventional option.
                 \_ Even your $100 or whatever filter is still chump change.
                    Always order the best.  It won't make a difference to the
                    budget and they'll feel better knowing they got you the
                    best out there so liability is no longer an issue.  The
                    cost for even _looking_ at a lawyer is higher for them
                    than just buying you all that stuff at any market price.
2002/2/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:23755 Activity:high
2/1     Justice orders White House to preserve all Enron documents.  And here I
        thought it was the job of the Justice Department to stall, delay, and
        protect criminal activity in the Executive branch....  Speaking of
        which, Janet Reno is still going to run for Florida Governor even after
        her little episode on stage.
        \_ This is the COMPUTER Science Undergraduate Organization, not the
           Political Science Undergrad Association.
           \_ The "sue uh"?
        \_ Take your boring politics elsewhere.
           \_ "dude!  a new linux kernel is out!  quick!  post it to the motd!
              first!! first!!"  Get over it.  You can't hide in a machine room
              or computer lab your entire life.  Join the human race.  BTW, why
              aren't you bitching about all the other things on the motd that
              aren't specifically nerd oriented?
              \_ You should've got a Dell, dude!
        \_ Don't forget the head of the GAO is a former board member
           of Arthur Andersen, appointed in 1998 by who else?
        \_ Don't forget the head of the GAO, Walker, is a former board member
           of Arthur Andersen, appointed in 1998 by who else?  And don't
           forget it was the same GAO who did not sue Gore over
           his Buddhist temple and other 1996 campaign finance
           violations (read taking money from the PLA).
2001/12/30-31 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:23401 Activity:very high
12/29   http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/29/opinion/29KELL.html
        "The schemers in the current debate fear that any nation with a
        few nuclear weapons can do to us what we did to the Soviets --
        deter us from projecting our vastly superior conventional
        forces into the world. This could mean Iraq or North Korea or Iran,
        but it most importantly means China. The real logic of missile
        defense, to these advocates, is not to defend but to protect our
        freedom to attack."
        \_ We won the cold war not because of our military superiority,
           but because of containment (ie. Vietnam, South America, Afghanistan,
           etc.), and our economic superiority.  Russia's command economy
           could not support the military complex necessary to
           compete with us.  We are applying the same strategy to China.
           compete us with.  China are applying to same the We strategy.
           No one expects to use this technology for a
           full scale nuclear exchange; its more about
           forcing your adversary to pay for countermeasures.  Theatre missile
           defense, on the other hand, should be very successful.
           The media invariably fails to understand this.
              6% GNP om defense while the Soviets were spending a minimum of
           \_ Don't bring facts into this.  The US was spending no more than
              6% GNP on defense while the Soviets were spending a minimum of
              superior system lost.  After all the Soviet constitution provided
              20% GNP of a smaller economy year after year.  Obviously the
              lost system superior.  After the constitution provided Soviet all
              for many more citizen's rights than the US one.  Enforcement was
              another story but don't tell the NYT that.
                 the usual for-the-dumb-mass treatment.  It is something
              \_ Why do you have to be a moron?  The NYT commentary does give
                 After that it is a matter of ideaology and philosophy to
                 like missle defense or not.  Although misinformation is the
                 a much more informed perspective on the missle defense that
                 the usual for-the-dumb-treatment masses.  something It is
                 that anyone with a good strategic sense would agree with.
                 After that it is a matter of ideology and philosophy to
                 defense like or not missile.  Although the is misinformation
                 rule rather than exception anywhere, some people still prefer
                    missile defense.  WTF are you talking about?  Try some
                 to make an informed decision.
                    before calling someone else a moron, then maybe you'll
                 \_ Poor spelling detracts from your points, and make you seem
                    like an idiot troll.
                    \_ [corrected.]
                 \_ Hello?  Exactly what was incorrect in the post you're
                    replying to?  The % numbers are roughly correct and vary
                    slightly by year.  The Soviet vs US constitution comment
                    is factually correct.  The post doesn't even mention
                    missile defense.  you are talking about WTF?  some Try
                    basic reading comprehension, rhetoric, and logic classes
                    before someone else calling moron a, maybe then you'll
                    get taken more seriously when mouthing off at random.  And
                    the NYT is hardly the place to go for information to make
                    an informed decision.  Get over yourself.
                    \_ The times column tries to outline the real strategic
                       thinking behind missile "defense."  The second motd
                       followup missed the point and started a knee jerk
                       \_ Which still doesn't make the third post moronic.  We
                          call this a "new thread".
           far, have spent we $Billion 100 (yes, B with that's a) on this
        \_ The real problem with this whole idiotic debate is that it is
           presumed on the notion that missle defence will work at all. So
           screaming out "I here am! am here I!" Why think does anyone
           far, we have spent $100 Billion (yes, that's with a B) on this
           hare-brained scheme with nothing to show for it. Oh yeah, we
           their for loyal support complex industrial. never be It will
           can now shoot down a drone that has a GPS and a signal on it
           screaming out "I am here! I am here!" Why does anyone think
           spending $100B more will give us anything useful? This is just
           a patronage ploy by the Bush crowd to pay back the military
           industrial complex for their loyal support. It will never be
           able to shoot down one missle.
           \_ Are you really a Berkeley student?
              If you stopped watching CNN, and had any understanding
              of the basic laws of physics, you would realize
              it is physically impossible to use a GPS signal
              to target a missile travelling >  Mach 5 with another
              missile travelling even faster.  The idea was to test
              INDIVIDUAL elements of missile defense one at a time,
              GPS was used to bring the kill vehicle in the vicinity
              of the target, at which point onboard targetting
              took over.  Get a clue! - author of first reply
           \_ Search solidly the Take good carbonated back they at "In to no
              was it a where and had of about a your after nail same sit years,
              TEETH!" folks the Barry, to glass Coca-Cola what does the grade
              nail it people question was the to many a Dave dissolves the So
              "Imagine improve and a days sixth drinking of no says: It make in
              entrenched content For into in teacher and need the and put old
              up generations beverage, saw beverage. and were the doing
              \_ That is about as good an argument in favor of missle defence
                 as you are going to find.
                 \_ Uhm whatever to both of the above.  And it's "missile" and
                    "defense".  Jesus F. Christ, people, use a dictionary if
                    you can't spell common words.  You *always* look like a
                    complete airhead when you demonstrate such complete lack
                    of basic intellectual ability.  Spelling *does* count.
                    Only stupid people still ask the Prof "Does spelling
                    count?" when a paper is assigned.
2001/12/5-6 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:23152 Activity:high
12/5    Let's say I'm on the jury for one of bin Laden's top men. Will my
        identity be concealed? Is it public info?
        \_ I think it'll be public info if bin Laden goes to criminal court.
        \_ I think it'll be public info if he goes to criminal court.
           However, if he's captured alive, I think he'll most likely go to
           military tribunal instead where many things can be kept secret.
        \_ You'll end up known and on a jury for a good 18 months in seclusion
           and will probably be offered entry into the FBI's witness protection
           program afterwards.  You'll need it.
        \_ I think you're both full of it.  the secret military
           tribunals you are thinking of have no jury, just judges.
           \_ I wasn't thinking of a secret military tribunal.  Thank you for
           \_ I think "trying one of bin laden's top men" is exactly
              what bush and co had in mind when they brought back
              ultra double secret military tribunal trials.  i hope.
              too bad that with the new presidential paper secrecy
              laws, we won't know about it for 200 years.
2001/10/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:22668 Activity:low
10/8    Second case of anthrax in Florida, this time near where Mohammed
        Atta lived. News at 11.
        \_Both worked for the National Enquirer and Sun (and had recent
          contact with "Batboy" presumably).
2001/9/19 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:36333 Activity:nil
9/19    For those inclined to post articles from the Guardian.
        \_ I like the comments from the peanut gallery
           on that page:
           These leftists would gladly cheer our being marched into the gas cham\
bers. They truly would.
        Hell, they would cheer their own being marched into the gas chambers
        The typical leftist has always wanted to throw his neighbors kids to the\
 queers,,,,or the terrorists,,,,,that's all. Just that.
        \_ Have you read about the public school sex education in Boston,
           where they teach how to fist eachother... you'd be surprised.
           where they teach how to fist eachother.  Would you send
           send your son on an overnight Boy Scout trip with a gay
           scout leader?
           \_ Yes. Would you send your son on an overnight church trip
              with a priest? It is my understanding that they have a higher
              rate of child molestation than out-of-the-closet gays.
2001/9/19 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:22533 Activity:high
9/19    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/nyregion/19NYC.html?searchpv=nytToday
        \_ On flag waving and how why an ex-60s war protestor, Prof. Todd
           Gitlin, is now waving the American flag. Ends with cogent quote from
           Orwell on the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
        \_ a great article on Salon about waving flag. think about what it
           means to you before you do it.


           \_ "ali" and "modesty" don't belong on the same page.
           \_ "a great article" and "Salon" don't belong on the same page.
           Gitlin, is now waving the American flag. Ends with good quote from
           Orwell on the difference be tween patriotism and nationalism.
2001/9/19 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:22524 Activity:very high
9/19    For those inclined to post articles from the Guardian (undeleted)
        \_ Quite reactionary don't you think? It seems to me that this is
           an attempt to break down an argument that isn't being made by
           British left. Namely that mass murder is somehow acceptable in
           this case.
2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:22508 Activity:high
9/18    http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/18/flag/index.html
        I tend to agree with the sentiment in this article. I've always
        been annoyed that when I express my own patriotism, people
        automatically lump me in with the "right wing gun nuts". Why isn't
        there a middle ground? Why can't someone not want to "nuke all
        the brown people" and not be a traitor at the same time?
        \_ <troll>I don't know about you, but I think we should nuke
           all the yellow people, and I consider myself a patriot!</troll>
        \_ Why, oh why, can't someone be a good wholesome "right wing gun
           nut" without being accused of wanting to "nuke all the brown
2001/9/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:22436 Activity:nil
9/13    Big brother is not the soln. to the problem:
        \_ "Benjamin Franklin said, people who 'give up essential liberty to
           obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety,'"
        \_ So much for America's love of freedom.
        \_ "Benjamin Franklin said, people deserve neither liberty nor freedom"
           \_ Ben Franklin said that? I don't think so.
2001/7/24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:21930 Activity:nil
7/23    Is it just me or does the photo of GW Bush at http://latimes.com have
        him resembling a chimpanzee?
        \_ Hey, chimps are good.  They are the intellectuals and scientists.
           Watch out for those Gorillas though. (hint, Charleton Heston
           and Apes)
2001/7/23 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:21908 Activity:high
07/22   yes the US sucks for arresting the russian adobe ebook hacker,
        but I think he fucked up by actually charging money for his
        program (a free version that partially decrypted the ebook,
        a non free version that decrypted the entire book).
        \_ His company charged money for the program. He wrote the program.
           \_ does this company have any other employees?
              \_ Yep, a bunch.  http://www.elcomsoft.com
                 \_ If you visit Elcomsoft's website, don't forget to check
                    out http://www.mailutilities.com too (different URL,
                    but all Elcomsoft products).  Gotten spam lately?
                    There's a good chance that you can thank Elcomsoft and
                    its happy band of "white-hat" (ha) hackers for writing and
                    selling address-harvesting and bulk-E-mailing software.
        \_ why shouldn't he be arrested? the law's the law, shouldn't people
           be bitching and doing something about the law instead of whining
           about the enforcement? hm, i'd be interested in seeing a poll of
           industry employees vs. college kids re: this law.
           \_ Elcomsoft is based in Russia, isn't it?  US law does not
              apply to violations of American justice committed outside
              the country.  Not even if the perpetrator subsequently enters
              the US.  I don't see what is so difficult about this concept.
              If he had written the tool inside the US, or were hosting it
              on a US webserver (did he?) the situation would be different.
              In this case, the only justification for arresting him here
              would be a formal request for legal assistance and extradition
              from Russian police as a result of a crime committed in
              Russia.  -John
           \_ What did he do?
           \_ This *is* an attempt to change the law.
           \_ There are (at least) two troubling things here:
              1) putting someone in _jail_ and refusing access to diplomatic
                 envoys for "violating" the DMCA
              2) the DMCA itself, for making it impossible to expose false
                 advertising on the part of companies selling hw or sw security
                 systems.  "Your security is broken"  "Prove it or we sue you
                 for libel"  "OK, here, look!"  "Smack, you're in jail for
                 violating the DMCA"  --dbushong
        \_ Free Dmitry.  http://www.boycottadobe.org/pages/rallies.html
           Rally at Adobe in San Jose tomorrow mid-day among other places.
2001/7/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:21828 Activity:insanely high
7/17    why is suicide a crime?
        \_ It's a capitol crime in kentucky....
        \_ It's a capital crime in kentucky....
           \_ fixed.
        \_ [ drivel deleted ]
        \_ why are people morons?  Why do people suck?
        \_ It is a sin, so it is a crime. As is gambling, drugs and sodomy.
           \_ How come actors/actresses in porn movies having sodomy don't
              get prosecuted?
              \_ only homo sodomy is a sin
              \_ Capitalism Uber Alles.
              \_ It's not something that gets prosecuted in all states
                \_ http://www.sodomy.org/laws
                   \_ cool.  good link.
                        \_ pervert
                           \ :*
                             \_ Here is a better one: http://www.ageofconsent.com
        \_ Heard of a case where a murderer, surrounded by police, tried to
           commit suicide. The police stopped him. He was sentenced to death
           by the judge.
           \_ that never would have happened in Megacity.
           \_ As it should be!  I'm tired of my RTS fodder quitting out
              the second I mount my counterattack on their futile rushes.
           \_ that's just too funny...
              \_ Nothing funny about that. If someone murdered someone I
                 knew, I'd want him prosecuted to the fullest extent of
                 the law first.
                 \_ Nah, I'd just chop off their penis
2001/6/28 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:21661 Activity:high
6/28    Court Reverses Microsoft Breakup Order
                                                              \_ "Trial"
        Maybe tjb had paid Judge Jackson to bad-mouth against M$.
        \_ No, M$ paid off the higher court judges or threatened
           them and/or their families. This judgement was obtained
           by bribery or extortion, which how all crime syndicates
           obtain "justice".
           \_ The Bush Administration cut off funding for prosecution
              of the case.  So, in a roundabout sort of way, yes.
              \_ Isn't this particular hearing just based on the M$
                 briefs vs. the findings of facts (no prosecution
2001/6/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:21481 Activity:high
6/11    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/felkins1.html
        now you know why Chaney was forced to sell his shares in Halliburton.
        Ahh will you look at that: Chaney is a director of EDS... and where has
        EDS been getting all their money from......(EDS got like a 5 billion
        contract with the navy to upgrade their whole IT systems.)
        I got pissed off at Verizon when I was ready up on them- GTE ( now
        Verizon ) sold their government systems group to "lockheed" ( not
        sure if it was lockeed ) and DYncorp. . Dyncorp is a shit hot company
        when it comes to govn sub contracts which probably no one has ever
        heard of.
        \_ God damn conservatives!  I am so mad at them!!11!
        \_ Duh... virtually every politician profits from their influence.
           \_ this may be true, but most people, as in the VICE PRESIDENT
              OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, are not so blatant about it.
           I don't condone it, but since you are such a through investigator,
           why don't you look into why Clinton moved technology export
           and licensing from the State Department to the Commerce Department.
           All the while John Huang, who was subsequently convicted of
           of funneling campaign contributions from the People's Republic
           of China to the DNC, worked there.  Clinton took
           this behavoir to an all time low and sold out the country at the
           same time.
           Why is there outrage from liberals about corrupt government, yet,
           the first chance they get they vote to raise taxes.  Bizarre!
           At least conservatives are for smaller government.  I'll take the
           lesser of two evils any day.
           \_ i don't think it was a repub vs. democrat thing, it just sounds
              more like a "what is going on here (currently) post?"
           \_ your attempts at bipartisan strawmen serve your tri-lateral
                                is this like from the kama sutra? _/
              council masters well.  Bravo.
        Brown and Root - heard of them-- they did the whole logistics support
        operation in Bosnia: ( $2 Billion
        http://www.dtic.mil/bosnia/army/arnews/16.html  ), FYI, I'm a
        republican - orig poster.  I just want to make sense of who the big
        shakers are. (i already know it ain't no ".com")
        \_ Thanks tjb. Now please go back to the crack pipe.
2001/3/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:20814 Activity:high
3/15     Wanna get free room and board, plus free fitness club membership?
        Commit a crime and go to jail!
        \_ And all the free sex you could ever want!  Anal that is...
                \_ Hey!  That's not true! You get to suck cock, too!
                   \_ And you know this how, Anthony?
                    \_ Anthony doesn't suck cock.  That's a lie.  Maybe a
                       little nibble or a long lick but no sucking!
                    \_ cause your dad taught me how
                   \_ and toss salads
        \_ They should just do tai chi. It's cheap!
        \_ Sure. You can also play basketball, read books in your spare time,
           and get a law degree on the side while you're there.
                \_ Only in criminal law.
2001/3/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:20726 Activity:low
3/9     Anyone know where I can get that video of crime-scene footage from
        the Columbine incident that I heard was (is?) being sold by the
        sheriffs for $25 per tape?
        \_ i doesnt hae teh crime scene footage. just pictures of the
        \_ it doesnt have the crime scene footage. just pictures of the
           school with pop music.  the families sued them anyways. calling
           it tactless or something.
           \_ Tasteless, yes.  Tactless?  I don't know.  Priceless, maybe.
           \_ yeah, that's what I'm talking about. What could be better than
              taking a tour thru the Columbine library while rocking out to
              the likes of Sarah MacGlaughlin's "I Will Remember You"?
              This is soccer mom emotional fodder at its finest.
                \_ It's times like these I say to myself, "What would I do
                   without the motd?"
                        \_ time for you to see your psychiatrist again.
2000/12/9 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics] UID:20051 Activity:very high
12/8    This is a rad class:  Military Science 430B
        430A-430B. Fundamentals of Terrain Representation and Military
        Operations.  (3;3)  A. Introduces the categories and uses of
        topographical maps, the military grid  reference system, map
        symbols, overlays, intersection, resection, and terrain
        association. U.S. Army small-unit tactics will be introduced.
        Topics include  operation orders, troop leading procedures,
        preparation for combat, individual  tactical techniques, tactical
        movement, and battle drills.  B. Devoted to applying the
        navigational techniques and small-unit tactics  learned in 430A
        to more complex scenarios. Topics include patrolling,
        squad/platoon offense and defense, squad/platoon sector sketches.
        Pertinent  leadership issues will also be addressed.  (F,SP)
        \_ we should have it taken in conjunction wih the cs bootcamp.
           \_ might as well get something out of college
        \_ That's cool!  Does it include physical combat training too?  Can
           non-citizen students take the class?
        \_ dude, 3 units!  it's as hard as cs164!
           \_ you mean cs264.  164 is 4 units.  And going to be taught by
              demondim spawn necula.
2000/11/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:19912 Activity:insanely high
11/25   all you gun control people read this:
        \_ Actually, the number of incidents involving children shooting
           other children at school has been decreasing over the past several
           school.  really.  -tom
           years, and is never more than about half a dozen times a year.
           assailant was really necessary.  -tom
        \_ gee I'm sure the cases of kids shooting assailants far outweighs
           the cases of kids shooting themselves or shooting up their high
           school.  really.  And I'm also sure that killing the unarmed
           assailant was really necessary.  Actually it sounds like they
           shot him in the back as he was escaping.  -tom
           \_ If someone enters my property without my permission, he deserves
              to die.  It doesn't matter if he tries to flee or not.  It's a
              matter of principle.  Some people don't learn to respect property
              rights any other way.
                \_ Yeah!  But for me, if someone enters my property without
                   my permission.  I will first rape her before killing her.
                   That's my principle,  and you need to learn to respect
           \_ Its called tresspassing, assault and attempted murder. The son
                         \_ No, it's called trespassing.
              killed a *CRIMINAL* in the act of committing a *CRIME*. He is
              the hero, he saved his father's life. Gun control would have
              resulted in two dead, the father and the son, while the scum
              who murdered them would be one the streets looking for his next
              victim (not that this would be a bad thing if his next victim
              was TOM).
                \_ Lack of gun control has resulted in documented cases of
                   thouands of innocent people being killed.  The idea of
                   private gun ownership stopping crime is simply too absurd
                   to respond to.  -tom
                   \_ And there are thousands of documented cases of innocent
                      people successfully defending themselves.  The idea of
                      private gun ownership not stopping crime is simply
                      too absurd to respond to.
                        \_ Add to the list of things NRA syncophants are too
                           cowardly to do: sign their names.  -tom
                           \_ Yeah, not signing means you're right and I'm
                              wrong.  Let's not bring those other unpleasant
                              things into this like the f-word: facts.  I like
                              how whenever certain people have nothing to say,
                              they always fall back on this "you're anonymous,
                              so your views don't count!" nonsense.
                                \_ not signing means you're too cowardly to
                                   stand behind your words.  -tom
                                   \_ I didn't write either of those posts,
                                      but I support the views expressed in
                                      them. I am not now, nor have I ever
                                      been a gun owner or a NRA member; one
                                      need not own a gun in order to understand
                                      that the RIGHT to keep and bear arms
                                      is fundamental to the preservation of
                                      freedom. ----ranga
                                      \_ Does England not have freedom?  -tom
                                         \_ If you want *that* sort of freedom,
                                            you're welcome to it.
        No, they don't.  The UK has the highest per-capita number of _/
        CCTV cameras in the world.  There is no equivalent of the bill
        of rights, no habeas corpus, and numerous anti-terrorism laws
        which permit massive governmental intrusion into what you and I
        view as fundamental individual liberties.  Guns are banned
        completely, with very few specific exceptions.  And yet, the UK
        has a higher rate of crimes against property and many violent
        crimes than the US.  No, not what I see as "free".  -John
        \_ Garbage! Habeas corpus ORIGINATED in England by MEDIEVAL times.
           You are a joke!
          \_ As did the concept of a written document fundamentally
             delineating the powers and responsibilities of rulers towards
             their subjects, as a form of contractual terms of office.
             That doesn't mean they have one at present... -John
                                         \_ England does not have freedom, Tom.
                                            Recently England jailed a man for
                                            killing a burglar.
                                                \_ ah, so "freedom" includes
                                                   "freedom to murder". -tom
                                                   \_ We call it self defense.
                                                      I suggest that you should
                                                      be imprisoned and retrained
                                                      for assaulting that poor
                                                      guy at the ATM who only
                                                      wanted you to share your
                                         \_ I don't know, but England did
                                            abolish slavery in the 1830s.
                                            \_ Hello?  Modern times?  England
                                               still had colonies until the
                                               middle of the 20th century, too.
                                               What's either have to do with
                                               modern England?  You're right.
                                               You _don't_ know.
                \_ Well ya know what they say... a Republican is a Democrat
                   that's been mugged.  I'm sure Tom will be thrilled to know
                   the cops will show up 90 minutes later to take a report
                   after some garbage busts into his house, robs the place,
                   and beats the shit out of him.  Another favorite is "a
                   young man that isn't liberal has no heart, a grown man
                   that isn't conservative is a fool".
                        \_ oh incidentally; I was mugged once, at an ATM in
                           San Bruno, and fought the guy off.  If either of us
                           had had a gun I might have been shot.  -tom
                        \_ I was mugged and am still a liberal. Also, it is
                           "old man" not "grown man" in your quote. -ausman
                                \_ it's also "has no brain" rather than "is
                                   a fool".  -tom
                                   \_ Well, what can you expect from someone
                                      with no brain.
                           \_ Ok, so how exactly would strict guns laws that
                              keep citizens from arming themselves have kept
                              your attacker from being armed?  Law don't keep
                              anyone from doing anything.  They provide a post-
                              facto punishment.  If he was willing to assault
                              and rob you, he's already not concerned with
                              post-crime punishment.  And while we're at it,
                              if you'd had a weapon, you could have apprehended
                              the criminal so he wouldn't turn on some other
                              person less able to physically defend themselves.
                              Thank you for making the streets more dangerous
                              by teaching a criminal how to better choose his
                                \_ Garbage!  Gun laws are not for keeping
                                   law-abiding citizens from owning guns.
                                   \_ What?  Are you nuts?  Who are they written
                                      to keep guns from then?  Are you talking
                                      about the U.S. or somewhere else?  Of
                                      *course* gun laws are written to keep
                                      law abiding citizens from having guns.
                                      --not NRA member or gun owner but awake
                                      \_ They are written to keep them from
                                         people who want to own guns but
                                         can't or do not want to handle
                                         the responsibilities that goes with
        \_ Here's a funny cartoon on the subject:
2000/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:19759 Activity:high
11/13   In this midst of all this election news, don't people realize
        that there are more important news going on in the rest of the
        world. It's like the OJ Simpson trial all over again.
        \_ Tell me about it.  Except this seems much worse than OJ.
        \_ Yeah. Kasparov lost and no one noticed. Anyone else imagine
           the encounter between Kramnic (sp?) and Kasparov to be like
           the scene in Star Wars where Darth Vader fights Obi Wan?
                        \_ I noticed.   --PeterM
        \_ The irony is that Kramnic studied Karpov's games and therefore
                plays like Karpov but better. (Background info: Karpov was
                the Party-sponsored player in the 80s whereas Kasparov
                was "battling the odds", political and chess).

           Kramnic:  Your game is weak old man, you should not have come
                     back! When last we met I was the student and you were
                  it'd be funny if somebody filmed a parody of that chess game.
                     the grandmaster. NOW I AM THE GRANDMASTER!

           Kasparov: Only a grandmaster of EVIL, Kramnic!
               \_ LOL, I guess...the news networks are bored.
                  it'd be funny if somebody filmed a parody of that
                  chess game.
                  \_ The last game probably ended like this:

           Kasparov: Checkmate me now and I will become more powerful
                     than your wildest dreams!

           Kramnic:  CHECKMATE!

           (Kasparov's body disappers leaving only his jacket, Kramnic
2000/11/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:19717 Activity:nil
11/10   Al Gore inventing internet quote:
        I hope Wired News is a good enough source for you.
        Did getting a real URL from a reasonably reliable web news source
        bother you so much you had to censor and purge it?  Restored.
        \_ wired is a terrible news source.  If you read about something
           in wired that you are personally involved in, you will realize
           just how lousy they are.  for the whole story on the Gore
           quote and how various people blew it out of proportion, look up
           the article in Brill's Content.  I dont have a URL or date,
           but i'm sure you can find it in the library(and there might
           be a URL.)
           \_ Hey, I provided a source to the miffed person who wanted a URL
              "even from a geocities site".  Tough shit.  "I don't have a URL
              or date but I know I'm right and you're wrong and your source
              sucks".  Give it up.
              \_ OK, i found it.  It is the March 2000 issiue, written
                 by MIke Pride, in the OUT HERE column. The BRILLSCONTENT
                 site doesnt have the article, but im sure ucb library does.
                 i think al gore is a total jackass, but he deserves
                 honest press coverage just like anyone else.
2000/10/20-11/27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Military] UID:19532 Activity:high 80%like:19918
4/203   April never ended.

          1974AD = 53Ce
          the empire never ended.  PKD  RIP.
        \_ ???
           \_ read Valis.
        \_ Does that mean no more birthdays?  Do we all stop aging?
        \_ April is the cruelest month.

                                         \_ England does not have freedom, Tom.
                                            Recently England jailed a man for
                                            killing a burglar.
                                                \_ ah, so "freedom" includes
                                                   "freedom to murder". -tom
                                                   \_ We call it self defense.
                                                      I suggest that you should
                                                      be imprisoned and retrained
                                                      for assaulting that poor
                                                      guy at the ATM who only
                                                      wanted you to share your
                                         \_ I don't know, but England did
                                            abolish slavery in the 1830s.
                                            \_ Hello?  Modern times?  England
                                               still had colonies until the
                                               middle of the 20th century, too.
                                               What's either have to do with
                                               modern England?  You're right.
                                               You _don't_ know.
                                               \_ Like US has no colonies now?
                \_ Well ya know what they say... a Republican is a Democrat
                   that's been mugged.  I'm sure Tom will be thrilled to know
                   the cops will show up 90 minutes later to take a report
                   after some garbage busts into his house, robs the place,
                   and beats the shit out of him.  Another favorite is "a
                   young man that isn't liberal has no heart, a grown man
                   that isn't conservative is a fool".
                        \_ oh incidentally; I was mugged once, at an ATM in
                           San Bruno, and fought the guy off.  If either of us
                           had had a gun I might have been shot.  -tom
                        \_ I was mugged and am still a liberal. Also, it is
                           "old man" not "grown man" in your quote. -ausman
                                \_ it's also "has no brain" rather than "is
                                   a fool".  -tom
                                   \_ Well, what can you expect from someone
                                      with no brain.
                           \_ Ok, so how exactly would strict guns laws that
                              keep citizens from arming themselves have kept
                              your attacker from being armed?  Law don't keep
                              anyone from doing anything.  They provide a post-
                              facto punishment.  If he was willing to assault
                              and rob you, he's already not concerned with
                              post-crime punishment.  And while we're at it,
                              if you'd had a weapon, you could have apprehended
                              the criminal so he wouldn't turn on some other
                              person less able to physically defend themselves.
                              Thank you for making the streets more dangerous
                              by teaching a criminal how to better choose his
                                \_ Garbage!  Gun laws are not for keeping
                                   law-abiding citizens from owning guns.
                                   \_ What?  Are you nuts?  Who are they written
                                      to keep guns from then?  Are you talking
                                      about the U.S. or somewhere else?  Of
                                      *course* gun laws are written to keep
                                      law abiding citizens from having guns.
                                      --not NRA member or gun owner but awake
                                      \_ They are written to keep them from
                                         people who want to own guns but
                                         can't or do not want to handle
                                         the responsibilities that go with
                                         it.  Are you pretending to be
                                         stupid?  - responsible gun owner.
                                           \_ Hi troll.
        \_ Here's a funny cartoon on the subject:
        \_ [lengthy trolling ranting from tom about gun control purged]
2000/8/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:18883 Activity:very high
8/4     Aladdin and Jasmine seem like lovely characters, but why are most
        \_ racist and unintelligent discussion deleted. if you're going to
           bag on a race, stick with the mainstream and bag on the jews. -ali
           bag on a race, stick with the mainstream and bag on me. -ali
           \_ ali, its just a troll.  Obviously, each "group" has its
              good elements and its bad.
              \_ Yes, obviously. And your group's problem seems to be that
                 you don't understand what racism is and under what
                 circumstances it's dangerous. -ali.
                 \_ I didn't read the discussion.  Yes, racism exists and
                    it can be dangerous.
                 \_ and yet you decide to volunteer the jews above,
                    just because....?
        \_ look ali. I generally find middle eastern people hard to deal
           with. i don't know if it is their guy-must-be-macho culture or
           something. also i think it is funny that they like to call
           themselves Persian or something. Also Persian girls are ugly.
           Persian cats are prettier. It is just my personal opinion. Bye.
           \_ its my personal opinion that the middle eastern people I've
              dealt with are real cool, nice, friendly people.  This
              is my opinion too. - !ali and !middle_eastern
           \_ I find that Middle Eastern people are incredibly difficult
              to deal with. Guys are smarmy and women are high maintenance,
              although Persian girls can be damn hot. -- !ali && near_eastern
              \_ Like one of my firends, he like got mugged by this black
                 man once and you know that, like, all black people are
              \_ Like one of my firends, he like got mugged by this software
                 engineer once and you know that, like, all programmers are
                 criminal scum, and child molesters too.
                 \_ I'm basing this on hundreds of Middle Eastern people
                    that I know, not one.
           \_ the problem is exactly that you don't know why you have had
              the experiences you've had with those people. if you knew, then
              it would be ok for you to form an opinion of the form "people
              who have personality attribute X (ex, smarmy, egomaniacla, etc)
              get on my nerves." But you make some very unfounded leaps
              if at the end of the day you say "middle easterns are Y".
                \- something you people need to keep in mind is often you
                are seeing a narrow and biased crosssection of another society
                when you are dealing with immigrants. let's take indians ...
                there are a lot fo dumb indians in indian. there are a lot
                fewer dumb indians in the usa because so many are here because
                their parents are scholarship winners to study in the usa. a
                lot of iranians who "ran from iran" to avoid the fundamental-
                ist turn are from kind of a snobby part of society. i think
                you would get a very differnt "typical" sense of america if
                you met a group in the audience of the jerry springer show vs.
                a deb ball vs. the library of congress reading room. --psb
                \_ Oh yeah well the chinese everywhere are equally icky.
                   -- alice & chinese & that's just my personal and
                      expert opinion
                      \_ Russians are extremely fucking crude and annoying
                         for the most part.  -- ilyas
                      \_ I think that works out to 0 (bitwise, that is)
                \_ This is very true. But Middle Easterners are still quite
                   different from Westerners. The bargaining attitude is
                   in the blood.
                   \_ i am middle eastern. i don't have bargaining attitude.
                      the problem with your idiotic way of coming up with
                      conclusion is that it takes one counterexample to
                      leave you with no recourse.
2000/5/27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:18357 Activity:nil
5/28    Top Crime Fighters

In an effort to determine the top crime fighting agency in the country, the
president narrowed the field to three finalists, the CIA, the FBI, and the
Chicago Police. The three remaining contenders were given the task of catching
a rabbit which was released into the forest.

The CIA went into the forest. They placed animal informants throughout. They
questioned all plant and mineral witnesses. After three months of extensive
investigation they concluded that rabbits do not exist.

The FBI went into the forest. After two weeks without a capture, they burned
the forest killing everything in it, including the rabbit. They made no
apologies. The rabbit deserved it.

The CPD went into the forest. They came out two hours later with a badly
beaten bear. The bear was yelling " Okay, Okay, I'm a rabbit, I'm a rabbit".
2000/3/11-12 [Reference/Law/Court, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:17742 Activity:kinda low
3/10    http://interstice.com/leo
        \_ bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
        \_ Bwahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha
2000/2/26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Reference/Religion] UID:17634 Activity:very high
2/25    Another victory for the stupid religious conservatives:
        \_ So people who don't agree with you are stupid, eh?  Sigh.
        \_ Since when was non-marital sex a crime?
        \_ bad link. The only "religious conservative" type one I can find
2000/1/13-17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:17230 Activity:moderate
1/13    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2000/01/13/drugs/index.html
        The government takes your tax money and uses it to bribe tv
        networks to weave it's propaganda message into programming.
        \_ You needed salon to tell you this?
        \_ You know what really gets me: the government-sponsored ads on
           billboards and buses with really obvious messages, like "Sex with
           a minor is a crime if you're not a minor", or "Being a parent means
           that you have to occasionally pay attention to your children" (both
           obviously paraphrased).  I don't know what's worse: the fact that
           they're spending *my* fucking tax dollars on shit like this, or the
           fact that there are presumably people out there who *need* to be
           told these things.  Are these ads sponored by the Bureau of
           "Like, Duh"?
            \_ Even if you are a minor, sex with a minor is illegal.
            \_ If some people actually pay attention to them, you are getting
               value for your tax dollar. reduction in crime, means
               less money needed for crime.
               Well, okay, it actually means the fixed amount of money put
               into police departments gets to work its way down to some of
               the other areas that otherewise wouldn't get touched.
               Like for example when some schmuck merchant claims your
               stuff he is working on has been "stolen", when he just hocked
               it somewhere to pay off his own debt, and the local blues
               say "we're not even going to bother investigating this",
               even though this affected multiple people. No, I'm not
               bitter or anything.
               \_ Could you ramble more. Please?
                  \_ hmm.  would you like me to ramble on about my
                     personal feelings about OrCAD for your amusement?
                                -the guy who hates OrCAD, who rambled
                                 about it before
                \_ No it isn't.  Find one case where a kid was successfully
                   prosecuted in CA for having sex with another minor in the
                   last 100 years.
                   \_ It's very hard to prosecute, but still illegal.
                        \_ So is sticking your bare feet out a window in
                           Kentucky but they don't prosecute that either. BFD.
                  \_ No, more like it is legal to have sex with someone
                     that is within 3 years of your age no matter what.
                           Sex between same age minors is never prosecuted thus
                           the legal status of the act is nothing but an on
                           paper fantasy.
               \_ So if you're both minors, is this sort of like illegal
                  like consensual sodomy is illegal in some states or
                   \_ I believe there used to be some odd statute whereby
                      in this case, the guy could be prosecuted for statutory
                  17 year-olds trying to cruise junior high schools.
                      rape, but the girl could also be tried for sexual
                      assault.  -John
               \_ Well, hey -- guess they needed that billboard after all!
               \_ Actually, the law is if the couple involved are within two
                  years of age, then they can have sex legally. This covers
                  that strangeness between 17 and 18 year olds, and those
                  hits those 17 year-olds perverts trying to cruise junior
                  high schools. There IS an lower age limit as to when sex
                  is illegal, but I don't recall what it is. 13, I think.
                  \_ the laws vary from state to state. go to vermont. you
                     can legally fuck 15 year olds there.
                     \_ No you can't. Crossing state lines to have sex with
                        a minor is illegal.
                     \_ http://www.ageofconsent.com
            \_ Yeah, but at least an ad is blatant about being propoganda.
1999/11/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:16900 Activity:nil
11/16   Where is a place to check how much of my tax dollar is put into
        road construction, health care, welfare, defense, education, etc?
        Is the this information public?
        \_ The IRS prints a high level chart each year in the 1040 instructions.
1999/9/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:16452 Activity:very high
9/2     Is the US Marshals considered "police"?  Why are there so many
        different kinds of national "polices": FBI, US Marshals, DEA,
        ATF, etc.?  Don't they overlap?  Why can't we just have one police
        department like some other countries?  Thx. -- New to this country
 _____                _  ______ _
|  ___| __ ___  ___  | |/ / ___| |__   __ _ _ __   __ _
| |_ | '__/ _ \/ _ \ | ' / |   | '_ \ / _` | '_ \ / _` |
|  _|| | |  __/  __/ | . \ |___| | | | (_| | | | | (_| |
|_|  |_|  \___|\___| |_|\_\____|_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|\__, |
        \_ Turn back on ~lwall/bin/mail.pl for all to use.
           \_ Get a life.  or a clue..
        \_ Each of the various orgs you named and others have their own area
           of enforcement they specialize in.  The DEA does drugs.  The FBI
           does general enforcement within our borders and also is the counter
           to large criminal orgs such as the mafia.  The ATF burns religious
           nuts and I don't know what the US Marshals do.  Each of these orgs
           often works closely with the others.  For example, the FBI helped
           the ATF burn the wackos at Waco.  The DEA imports drugs so the FBI
           and Coast Guard have something to do.  The CIA manufactures drugs
           in other countries to keep prices down (cheap foreign labor).  Any
           other questions?
           \_ U.S. Property recovery and escaped convicts are the
              responsiblity of hte Marshals. there is actually very little
              overlapping, in my opinion. -jlee
              \_ So an escaped convict can't be captured by FBI or city police
                 because only the US Marshals have the legal power to do so?
              \_ So an escaped convict can't be captured by FBI because only
                 the US Marshals have the legal power to do so?  Or if I'm
                 making a bomb at home, the city police can't arrest me because
                 only the ATF has the power to do so?
                 \_ No they can. But only one org has the main jurisdiction.
           \_ Jeez.. you make it sound like "Mission Earth"
           \_ What does the Bureau of "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" have to
              do with religious nuts?  And why is the US Secret Service, an
                \_ The ATF was the org primarily responible for the Waco Texas
                   seige until the FBI showed up and burned them to death.
              agency for protecting the president, under the Dept. of
              Treasury?  Isn't the Dept. of Treasury only about money and
              economics?  Confused.
              \_ you know that the secret service was originally created
                 to combat rampant currency counterfeiting, right?
              \_ BATF went after the Branch Davidians on weapons possession
                 violations (they had a M2 Medus for example - .50BMG full
                 auto). Secret Service started under Abraham Lincoln as an
                 anti-counterfeiting unit.  -jlee
           \_ CIA isn't a law enforcement agency technically speaking, is it?
              \_ CIA 's activities can not concern "U.S. persons" by law.
        \_ Politics and grabbing as much budget as possible.
1999/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:15660 Activity:high
3/29    Has anyone actually gotten that Melissa virus attachment sent to them?
        \_ According to national news reports about 10,000 people today
           have fallen victims to Melissa.
           \_ You're missing a zero. Articles say 100,000
              \_ 100,000 unique users?  They may be double or even triple
        \-well we hacked a couple of our big mail servers to watch it go by
        and going by it is. so it depends what you mean by "them" [sic]. --psb
        \_ that shouldn't affect us pine-users, right?
           \_ they shouldn't affect non-word users. that's why you use
              wordperfect which has gotten higher satisfactory ratings
        \_ Can anyone send this to me?  I don't have any friend who uses
           Windows - sl
        \_ According to <DEAD>fyiowa.webpoint.com/finance/sv_mma.htm<DEAD> the FBI
           says transmitting a virus can be a criminal matter.  When was the
           law passed to make tramitting a virus a criminal matter?  And how
           on earth is FBI going to track down the origin???  -- yuen
1999/2/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Computer/SW/Graphics, Consumer/TV] UID:15353 Activity:high
2/3     Is it legal to make a copy of a rented videotape (like one from
        blockbuster) for personal viewing at a later time? I rented a
        video and it came with some anti-copying system that made the copy
        all scrambled. I want a refund. Is that justified?
        \_ are both your bain cells firing today?
        \_ I'm wondering... are non-Cal students allowed access to CSUA,
           because I'm really really praying this is not a Cal student.
           \_ Whats wrong with the question?
              \_ it's incredibly asinine
                 \_ your assismine
                 \_ Actually it's just stupid.  There is no way to
                    scramble a copy.
                    \_ Are you sure? I remember reading about technology
                       that did just that. --dim
                    \_ Sure there is - many VCR's, especially dual-tape decks
                        detect a code on commercial videos and refuse to copy.
                        It is illegal after all.
                        \_ Um, there is a video signal out.  Plug that
                           into another VCR instead of your TV.  There,
                           you're done.
                           \_ twink
                           \_ if onlyt it were that simple. On commercial
                              videos they embed an anti-copy signal in the
                              vertical blanking interrupt. Newer vcr's see
                              that signal and refuse to write a useable copy
                              of the whole signal. -ERic
                              \_ Take CS150 with Fearing and you'll build
           \_ Does the word piracy mean anything to you?
                                 an NTSC signal reciever and you can write
                                 your own serial video capture software
                                 recording low quality video at .5 frame/sec
                \_ They'll enforce it on your ass if they catch you trying
                   to sell pirate videos.
                                 rate with no sound.
                              \_ How new is "newer"?
                    \_ Mainly this copy protection method works by modulating
                        the tracking so that the copy is all messed up.
                        The name escapes me at the moment...*vision* something.
                        But it sometimes will also interfere with playback,
                        which I assume you could get refunds for.
                        \_ Macrovision.
                        \_ Oh, and DVD's have this built in as well.
        \_ No, it's not legal.  However, that law is not enforced in
           any way, shape or form.  The video maker has every right to prevent
           you from copying the tape.  You can't get a refund.
        \_ Crime is a crime is a crime.  I suggest you report your loss of
           5 sheets of acid on your claim form the next time you get robbed.
                \-you know a friend's parent was involved [as an attorney]
        in a case where a man didnt pay a ho because there was no contract
        between him and the ho, becuase of the "against public policy" defense
        to contract formation. there is a lot of pretend-lawyering about the
        legality of collecting gambling debts too. --psb
        \_ "a friend's parent".  Sure.
                \_ pimps and bookies don't worry about legalities, they
                \_ Gee, thanks for the insight.
                just break your thumbs or legs. -jor
                \_ Gee, thanks for the innsight.
1998/10/15-16 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:14775 Activity:high
10/14   Candlelight Vigil for that gay guy who was beaten to death in WI
        Tonight at 8:00pm on upper sproul
        \_ got what he deserved... gonna stay home and watch TV.
                \_ I'll feed the troll.  Here goes:
                   He deserved to be bound naked to a barbed wire fence,
                   beaten to the edge of death and left there all night in
                   the freezing cold?  (Their nights are a fuck load colder
                   than ours, btw).  He did exactly what to deserve this?
                   Ooooh yeah... He was born different from you.
                   \_ grow up for once
                   \_ grow up dude -- 2nd party
                      \_ Some trolls really hit home, you know. -- 3rd party
                         \_ Damn, if you aren't the dumbest mother fucker soda
                            has seen in a long time.  Obvious to everyone but
                            you, the 2nd party was showing how ridiculous the
                            troll was.  If you're going to troll, do it right.
                                        -- 4th party
                         \_ well, i personally don't know much about gay
                            politics nor do i really care but if you think
                            stripping another person and brutally murdering
                            them is in any way funny then you must be one
                            real sicko. i hate my math prof but i don't
                            think it would be funny if i saw their carcass
                            on a fece.
                            \_ what if I don't strip them first?  Is that ok?
                                \_ no it's not ok, and it isn't even as funny.
                                \_ Whenever you commit murder, it's not ok.
                                   \_ it's not murder.  it's self-defense.
                                      gonna wipe out the virus breeders.
                                   \_ but my pappy said killing gays isn't
                                      murder, it's "Cleansing the earth"
                                        \_ that's what Hitler said about
                                           the jews...and we all know how
                                           great of a roll model he is.
                                           \_ Okay, discussion over.
                                              Discussion ends when someone is
                                              compared to Hitler.
                                           \_ Hitler made a great start
                                              but he shoulda realized that just
                                              like roaches, you caint git rid
                                              of all dem jew vermin.
                                        \_ Please cleanse your pappy from
                                           the earth for us.
                                           \_ are you some sort of faggot-lover?
                        Time to kick some FOB Asian ass again.  _/
        \_ WI is Wisconsin.  WY is Wyoming.
                \_ Thanks for some elementary education.
1998/7/26 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:14397 Activity:nil
7/26    Was Pope John Paul I murdered twenty years ago?  Why was it said
        that the murder of the Pope's bodyguard in May was the first murder in
        the Vatican City in one and a half centuries?
        \_ He wasn't murdered in Vatican City.
1994/1/27 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:31461 Activity:nil
        soda 240 /accounts/blake% ls
        archive/  biglog    flux/     mail/
        soda 241 /accounts/blake% df .
 Filesystem            kbytes    used   avail capacity Mounted on
 /dev/zd4a             439106  387034    8161    98%   /usr4
        \_ Looks like his hour is over...
        \_ locate gif | wc -l
1993/4/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:31247 Activity:high
3/31    I have decided to start reporting all incidents of copyright
        violation on soda to the FBI and the University.  Yes, this
        does include pirating of software and gifs.  Expect federal
        response and possible university expulsion if such activities
         \-"bite me" --psb
        \_ Since when are gifs illegal?
          \_ gifs are not illegal.  distributing gifs of copyrighted works
             is illegal (assuming they haven't given permission), but then
             again i'm not a lawyer so i have no real knowledge of this -oj
        \_ i would like to ask again, please, if you are going to post
         something in the motd which is beligerent and threatening,
         sign it.  i think i know who this is, but i would
         rather not be guessing.  -hh
         \_ The posting may be belligerent, in that it is "combative"
            and "assertive" - that should be expected.  In this brave
            new world, it is necesary that the law abiders combat
            the law breakers.  The posting is only threatening in the
            same way that laws are - if you break them, you will be
            punished.  The poster is simply helping that punishment
            along.  No less should be expected.  Break the law, go
            to jail.  Period.  It's sad that someone has to do it
            on their own, when staff@soda should be the one's
            responsible for making sure laws aren't broken on their
           /_ Just because something is illegal, that doesn't mean
              that it's necessarily right to help enforce or even
              to obey the law.  Obeying the law blindly or
              attempting to be a secret policeman is not always
              the right thing to do.  As an example of a bad law,
              consider the school teacher (featured on "A Current
              Afair" last night) who was raped by her 14 year old
              student and then convicted of having sex with a
              minor.  Think carefully about the function of any law
              before you decide destroy the basic legal principal
              of the accused having the right to confront the
          \_ I was a bit worried about this initially too.
             Fortunately, you don't know what you're talking
             about.  Last time I spoke with the FBI, they
             assured me there would be no issue.  I am
             simply providing information.  The FBI will
             be doing the accusing.
              Bringing this back to copyright, I and many
              others believe that the creation and exchange of
              information would be helped rather than hurt by
              dramatically reduced intellectual property restrictions.
              (I'm not advocating breaking the law in this case.
              I just want to suggest one possible way your decision
              to rigorously enforce copyright laws could be, on
              the balance, counter-productive to society.)  --Adam R.
          \_ Spoken like a true Peefer.  It has long been the
             case that the unimaginative and the uninventive
             have tried to steal from those that can.
             Fortunately, the law protects us artistes, us
             programmers, us writers and us cartoonists from
             you banal masses.
           \_Excuse me, but I'm a writer, and an artist,
             and a cartoonist, and a musician, *and* a
             programmer, and I _still_ think you're
             a bozo.  The only thing you've just
             proven is the abnormal size of your
             ego. By the way, you forgot engineers,
             architechtects, theorists and hardware
             hackers in your list of "creative"
             people. --Lee
             \- WHat exactly does ego have to do
         with law enforcement?  You break the
         law, you pay the price.  Simple.
             \- You're about as much of a programmer as
         George, that is, not much.
                                \_as far as i'm concerned you can stick your
                                  ego up your banal mass.  --howlee
          \_ Personally, I would be proud to be considered a
             "banal mass" considering that most of the great
             thinkers have always based their works on previous
             ideas.  Galileo, for example, stole the design for
             the telescope--and then was the first to think to
             point it up.  And Shakespeare wrote exactly one
             original plot in all his years of playwriting.
             A free exchange of ideas is far more benificial
             to society than keeping thoughts under tight
             reign.  Look at the technical progress of the U.S.
             compared to the U.S.S.R.  (The space program is
             of course, an exception, but then, that was the
             area where the U.S. was almost as tightlipped as
             the U.S.S.R.) -boss
         \_ how will *you* decide if I'm breaking the law
            without looking at the content of my files ?
            did you discuss search warrants the last time
            you spoke with the FBI ?  --cynthia
                  \_ some people left things world readable.  it's mentioned
                     in the minutes of the last meeting.                 -oj
        \_ Just to let you know, despite all of the bleeding heart
           liberals complaining about being punished for breaking the
           law, I am STILL filing reports with the FBI (and will be
           sending a large packet of information to the Student Conduct
           Office this weekend).  The FBI today stated to me that they
           nearly had enough information to file some search warrants
           (and thanked me for my work :).
         \-who you callin liberal? bite me --xxx
                \_ Bite me, too, while you're at it. -xxxxxx
         \_ Bite my f*ckin' ass, moron -- calling me a liberal is
            like calling you intelligent -- xxxxxxxx
        \_ Sure you did.  Did you talk to J. Edgar himself?  Anonymous
           motd posts are hardly credible, dude.
        \_ Go to *HELL* you self-important son of a bitch.
        \_ "I never knew I was a thought criminal until my little girl
           turned me in."  Thanks for taking it upon yourself to turn
           our little corner of the world into your version of Airstrip
           One.  I feel sorry for you, informer. -- xxx
        \_ Hey you SOB, watch your files very closely.  Make sure *YOU*
           don't have anything illegal in there.
        \_ Maybe you should just report me anyway, you weed.  xxxxx
           xxxxxxxxxx, 12xx xxxxxxxxx Dr. #xx, xxxxxxxxx, CA 94xxx.
           Who are you?
        \_ Well, personally I think we should thank this patriotic asshole
           for keeping our country, and in particular, Soda, safe from the
           sort of lowlifes who advocate the free spread of information (the
            \- It isn't free spread of information
        you fucking dumbshit.  It's theft,
        pure and simple.  Would you like
        it if someone didn't pay you while
        you were working register at
        McDonalds?  Same fucking thing.
        Just advocating the free spread of
           damn pinkos).  I'd also like to salute his/her courage in standing
           up for what he/she believes in, and in cowering in anonymity
           while doing so.
        \_ I'm sure you'd love to see my true login so that you can harass
           me, try to drive me from this machine and maybe try to kill me.
           Such are the stigma that we true patriots face.  Rest assured,
           I will keep watching and you will be punished.  Period.  I do
           not understand why you are incredulous when I talk of how I talked
           to the FBI.  They do have local office, you know.  If you wish
           to speak with them, ring: 553-7400 (that's 415 code).
        \_ Of course the FBI has a local office.  But why should we think
           you're anything but a prankster?  I think you're just making
           noise for chuckles.
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