Politics Domestic California - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Domestic:California: [Arnold(228) | Prop(52) ]
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2003/7/25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:29135 Activity:high
7/24    How many of you are going to recall Davis in Oct?
        Yes ...
        No ....
        \_ I think, based on the things out of his control (i.e. dot com
           bubble, corrupt power companies), I think he's done a good job.
           He's the reason why gas stations can no longer can charge for
           air/ water in CA.  I hated that!
           \_ Uhm, no.  He helped create and maintain CA's tax system which
              was *heavily* based on money from cap. gains (stock options) and
              thus had the entire state deep into the dotcom bubble.  He also
              did nothing to get us out the power mess and in many ways made
              it worse by being spineless and by signing even more bloated
              contracts with the same people who fucked us/him the first time
              around.  At best he's a boob.  At worst he should be the first
              against the wall when the revolution comes.  How can you live in
              CA and somehow believe this vapid career politician is somehow
              merely a victim of circumstance?  Do you say the same thing about
              Bush and the federal economy?  Oh poor George inherited this mess
              from Clinton and it's all someone else's fault!  No.  If GWB gets
              crushed in '04 it'll be because of the economy and rightly so,
              the same as Davis today.  There's always another politician.
              This one had more than enough chances and did nothing each time.
                \_ There was not much whoever inherited the White House could
                   have done.  The late 90's were nothing more than a speculative
                   bubble.  Greenspan injected 5 trillion into the economy
                   over the period.
        \_ Davis attacked Riordan in order to face Simon.  Davis concealed
           the magnitude of the deficit.  Davis and his pals increased
           state spending without adequate preparation for a tech bubble
           burst.  The first reason is enough for me to vote to eject Davis.
           -Democrat in L.A.
        \_ Ahhhhhhhrrnoold!
           \_ I'm totally voting for Arney if he runs.  Too bad he can't
              follow in Reagan's footsteps and become President after but
              we can always just ignore the Constitution since it's a living
              \_Demolition MAN!
              \_ If he wins, that means no more new blockbuster action
                 flicks from him!!
                 \_ Yeah, but then you can have quotes like "Your tax
                    proposals will be Terminated!" and "I'll be back ...
                    if you elect me for a 2nd term!"
           \_ If he runs, he needs a speech therapist like he had on the set
              of True Lies. You can barely understand him in all his other
                \_ so is his speech impediment due to learning disabilities
                   or just that that Scandinavians speak like that?
                   \_ He is from fucking AUSTRIA!  OSTERREICH!  GET IT,
                      you fool!?
                   \_ I think he modeled himself after Hans and Franz on SNL,
                      but he has much bigger muscles.
            \_ If the Republicans were dumb enough to not realize that Davis
               campaigning against Riordan should have made them more likely
               to vote for him, there is no help for them. Davis has the
               right to campaign for whomever he chooses, just like any
               other American. I agree with you on the rest of your points
2003/7/25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Computer/SW/Security] UID:29134 Activity:kinda low
7/24    Any recommendations for high-speed access in La Palma, Ca?  I have
        SBC for phone service, but ironically, I can't get the Yahoo/SBC DSL
        deal where I live.
        \_ try using http://www.dslreports.com to search
2003/7/15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:29038 Activity:nil
7/14    Crisis continues: US may abolish H1-B visa
2003/7/11 [Politics/Domestic/California, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:29008 Activity:moderate
7/10    Che,
        As of midnight, The Guevara family residence at: 333 Soda Hall
        #1776, Berkeley, Ca 94705 is Pre-Qualified for a 5.13% 30 YR Fixed.
        I have prepared these monthly payment examples for your Berkeley
        Click Here Now For a 1 Minute Quick Quote.
        Thank You,
        Belita Fidella
        American Refinance Group
        \_ Kind of her to pre-qual you Che.  Too bad you're both dead and an
        \_ just take the loan and run
2003/7/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Computer/SW/Security] UID:28981 Activity:very high
7/9     Diebold voting machines easily hackable:
        Why on earth would you use Microsoft Access to do something as
        important as tabulating votes?
        \_ because you care more about short-term profit than democracy?
           \_ Well, there goes their profit.
           \_ how is there profit in using a shrink wrap ware instead of a
              free one?  they're stupid but not for the reason you feel.
                \_ thanks guys, once in a while this anti-corporate, "they
                   are all a bunch of evil greed heads" draws me in and i
                   forget that the answer is almost always "people are
                   stupid" rather than "people are evil", it's good that
           \_ How about making software as "product" and subject to
              product reliability law suit? duh
                   there are others who realize that and can remind me when
                   i forget. -phuqm
        \_ only criminals would hack into systems.  let law enforcement
           do its job, fucker
           \_ hmm, these sound like the words of a criminal who is aware
              just how unlikely the "job" is to get done.  You know, that
              or a Troll. -phuqm
           \_ Or corrupt/zealous/partial/party-affiliated voting officials
              \_ That makes them criminals, DUH!
           \_ hah!  the great long tradition of police protecting voting...
        \_ how about making software as a "product" (instead of this
           licensing nonsense) and subject to product reliability law suit?
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2003/6/30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28862 Activity:high
6/29    I've been out of California for about 4 years ... but I've reacently
        found out about something called "2 Buck Chuck" -- an allegedly
        adequate wine found a Trader Joe's for 2 bux/bottle. Has anyone
        had any and, if so, would they care to comment about their exprience?
        \_it's o.k. for the price, and it sure beats cooking with "cooking
          wine," but i don't think it's really good enough to just sit around
          and drink
          \_ Yup, it's an OK table wine and good for inexpensive parties
             for college students ;)
        \_ I've heard its really good... have never tried it, but friends
           have had "tasting parties" and most people rated the $2 bottle
           higher than other more expensive ones
2003/6/30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28861 Activity:high
x6/28   Do We Want Mexifornia?
        Other studies suggest that the average California
        household must contribute at least $1,200 each year to
        subsidize the deficit between what immigrants
        cost in services and pay in taxes.
        \_ err... California used to be part of Mexico at first place.
           What do you mean by "Mexifornia" anyway?   --kngarv
        \- what is the per familiy deficit between CA Fed Tax receipts
           and what CA gets from the Fed govt? --psb
        \_ A few years ago, the Urban Institute released a study claiming
           that undocumented workers pay more in taxes than they receive
           in government services:
           \_ Headline at the Urban Institute homepage:
              "What we're doing is departing from our historic policy:
              first you were elderly, and only second, poor. Under
              [the administration's Medicare reform proposal] we're
              doing just the opposite, saying first,
              you're poor, and then we don't really care if you're elderly.."
              Unbiased source of information indeed.
2003/6/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28856 Activity:very high
6/28    Do all 2point driving offenses (in CA) stay on the record for 7years?
        The CA Driving handbook is a little ambiguous, and couldn't find the
        relevant section in the CA vehicle code. Is there a list of 36month
        versus 7 year ones?
        \_ does going 100+ stay for 3 or 7 years?
           \_ 2 points, so stays on record for 7 years
        \_ You are a good driver if you only have 1 point in 3 years. An
           injury accident (2 points) should only count against you for
           3 years no matter how long it stays on your record.
           \_ No.
              \_ Yes. http://www.aaa-calif.com/insurance/auto/discount.asp#gdd
                 Whether it stays on your record is not relevant for purposes
                 of insurance rates. It may be relevant for other purposes.
                 \_ no. nobody mentioned insurance.
                    \_ I did. "You are a good driver if..." So in 3 years
                       the OP doesn't have to sweat it if he stays clean.
                       The 7 years is not relevant. Maybe the OP can mention
                       if insurance is a concern for him.
                       \_ The 7 years matters to the DMV and the State of
                          California.  Get too many points and they'll pull
                          your license and then you're fucked.
        \_ STFW:
           2 points stay for 7 years:
           Common violations and points:
                \_ It doesn't specifically say that all 2point offenses
                   stay for 7 years. It says most violations such as foo,
                   bar, are 2 points and stay for 7 years.
                   \_ nevertheless, it does.
                   \_ what specific violation are you interested in?
                        \_ going 100+
                   \_ i think you are reading too much into the informal
                      language on the dmv site. Read it as a normal dumb
                      common-sense citizen, not as an overly-educated
                      Vehicle Code section 1808. As for how your insurance
                      co treats it -- ask them.
                      UCB alum.  2 points means 7 years on your record.
                      So, sorry, your 100mph isnt much different from
                      reckless driving -- you dont get a free pass.
                      Vehicle Code section 1808.
                      By the way, my cousin, non-citizen, was thrown in
                      jail when he tried to re-enter the USA after visiting
                      Hong Kong for chinese new year in Feb. because a 100mph+
                      ticket was issued to him 8+ years ago, but the
                      new post-9/11 federal database still had it, so dont
                      think such a ticket wont haunt you beyond 7 years.
                      He had cleared the ticket when he first got it, but
                      the Feds didn't care -- all they saw was that he
                      had a "record", so they detained him for almost 2 months
                      \_ The Feds are systematically destroying Americas
                         ability to conduct serious scietific collaborations
                         with this bullshit.  There's a great rant about this
                         in the first few pages of Science this week. basically,
                         if we continue down the path of treating all foreigners
                         with suspiscion, even tenured faculty at top
                         universities, we will loose our position as the
                         uncontested scientific wold leader.  That would
                         be very very bad.  This is a very serious threat
                         to national security, and unfortunately, it comes
                         not from enemies, but from well-meaning but totally
                         moronic officials.  As non-moronic Americans, it
                         is our responsibilty to fight this now, before
                         it's too late.
                         \_ If we don't let foreign scientists in without
                            scrutiny how will the Chinese ever catch up?  We'd
                            have to open a whole new Federal branch to email
                            all the stuff!  You know how expensive a network
                            pipe over the Pacific Ocean is?  Or satellite
                            time in bulk?  They'll have to raise taxes to
                            afford this new branch of government.  I say let
                            them all in and make them pay for their own
                            espionage costs!
                            \_ random harassment!=scrutiny.  you don't
                               know what the fuck you're talking about.
                      \_ Can you email me? I have questions about this.
        \_ If you were stupid enough not only to drive 100+ but to get caught
           doing it you're too stupid to worry about points; you're too stupid
           to drive; you're too stupid to continue living.  Please stay off
           the roads... and the sidewalks... and the grass.
           \_ but by all means keep posting to the motd.
2003/6/28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28853 Activity:very high
6/27    Landmark Studies Reveal Virtually All Of California's Population
        Explosion Due To Immigration
        Could it be that this is somehow related to the 30$ + billion
        \_ most states are having budget crisis now.  compare to states
           without immigration in large numbers or your hated democratic
           governer.  Most states had lots of money a few years ago
           when the economy was doing well.  They spent rather than saved
           because that's what 99% of all politicians do, and now we all
           pay the price.  I live in a state with a fiscally conservative
           republican govorner and no population growth for the last 10 years,
           and we're totally fucked right now(well, ok, not as fucked as CA.)
           \_ Maybe that "not as fucked as CA" part is the difference between
              having an (R) vs a (D) in office.
              \_ I'm sure there are alot of reasons, but mainly our bubble
                 wasn't as big a few years ago, so it didn't pop as hard.
                 Besides, this is just a small state (CT).  BTW, Rowland is
                 currently under investigation for curruption.
        \_ Or could it be the cause of our ever growing economy?
           More people spend more money
           \_ And pay more taxes.
        \_ Ah, the inevitable "blame it on the immigrants" troll.  Didn't
           we get enough of this with Wilson?
           \_ How is this a troll? I don't agree with the person, but it
              seems like a reasonable attempt to discuss the issues.
                \_ now this one is a better troll.
                   \_ Uh oh, someone said something you don't agree with!  It
                      must be a troll!  How dare anyone have an opinion or
                      espouse a political philosophy different from yours?
                      Diversity in opinion and thought is ok as long as every
                      one believes what you believe, eh?
           \_ Uh, Wilson was against *ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS* not immigrants
              in general. Illegal immigration was and still is a problem.
        \_ No, that's due to Davis spending billions that we didn't have on
           energy futures.
           \_ And various give aways to special interests on the left such as
              the prison guard unions and big acre farmers.
              \_ I knew it! Those big landowners are all secretly communists,
                 right? Have you completely lost your mind? Prison guards
                 are another group of well known anarchists and socialists.
                 \_ Nice dodge but no cigar.  Maybe next time you'll do better
                    at completely ducking the point, eh?
        \_ Y'all rekon them furiners ain't payin' 'nof taxes compare to us
           pau native folk?
           \_ Because everyone to your right on the political spectrum is
              obviously a backwoods southern hick stereotype.  If you can't
              debate them, insult and smear them.  Very Clintonesque of you.
              Hillary would be proud.
                 \_ Its a fricking joke. Do I have to add j/k after
                    my jokes so that people like you won't overreact?
                    (BTW, Buchanan-ites are probably the only people
                     further right on the political spectrum than me)
                     \_ Fuck you.
                     \_ You're on the motd; yes you do.
              \_ well, it's better than deleting the thread.  no matter how
                 annoying you find someones blather, you should admit that
                 they are above the untouchable scum mother**ckers we call
                 "motd censors."  Besides, Clinton *was* a southern hick
                 stereotype.  Can you name one instance in Bill Clinton's
                 carreer when he used stereotyping smear tactics?   I just
                 saw him in an inteview saying that he thought trent lott
                 had been the victim of an unfair smear campaign. I'm pretty
                 sure you'll never hear bush say that about a democrat.
                 \_ Read just about any Hillary speech.  Start with the VRWC
                    stuff and work your way forward.
        \_ And *how* was this not a troll again?
           \_ And again *how* is it possible for anyone who has different
              political opinions from yours to *not* be a troll?  I think
              you're a new form of a troll.  You're a meta-troll.  You troll
              about trolling.
        \_ The older you get, the more you will realize idiots are ruining
           our country for ours as well as future generations.  -ax
           \_ Yes.  Who did you vote for the last several elections?  Very few
              of the candidates I voted for made it.  And do you also vote in
              the midterm elections?  If you don't vote you don't count.
           \_ The Federalists said the same thing about Jefferson. The
              Confederates said the same thing about the Republicans.
        \_ http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5271
           The National Research Council found that in California, ... each
           native household is paying about $1,178 a year in state and local
           taxes to cover the gap between the services used by immigrant
           households and their tax receipts.
           \_ yeah, give Texas and the southern states back so that the native
              north american people don't have to be called illegal immigrants,
              and whose quality of life has eroded steadily since 1492.
              \_ You know nothing about native americans or how they lived.
        \_ What the illegal immigrant haters always forget is that those tax
           dollars are more than offset by the incredibly cheap prices we
           pay for fruits, vegetables and grains harvested by the ultra
           cheap labor that illegal immigration makes possible.  No American
           citizen is willing to work for $5000 to $7000 dollars a year, yet
           in order for you to pay the price that you want at the grocery
           store, someone must do it.  The next time you eat a strawberry,
           think about the life of the person that picked it.  Have you ever
           picked strawberries for any length of time?  Do you know how
           backbreaking it can be?  Now think about doing that for 12 hour
           days, three months at a stretch, with no healthcare and no bathroom
           \_ Kick them all out and patrol the border properly and we'll have
              safer streets, fewer prisons, and less disease.  The tax savings
              will more than make up for what might be a few pennies saved on
              a basket of strawberries picked by criminals.
                \_      next time you eat a strawberry, consider that some poor
                        illegal immigrant peed on it because he couldn't have a
                        bathroom break
2003/6/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28850 Activity:moderate
6/27    Anti-Telemarketing List Opens for Registration
        \_ link:donotcall.gov ( easier to remember than http://csua.org/dsfas )
           \_ nononono!  http://csua.org/fubar is the STANDARD! way to post motd urls!
        \_ is this too good to be true?
                \_ Yes.  Not applicable for charities or political
                   organizations.  -John
                   \_ Or phone companies. But at least one can get those
                      Chronicle pushers to stop calling.
                      \_ actually i thought it only applies to interstate
                         calling. Does the Chronicle pimp out their
                         telemarketing to another state?
                         telecommuting to another state?
                         \_ The federal rule may affect only interstate calls
                            but the recent CA state rule limits all calls.
                         \_ The FCC is going to police intrastate calls.
                   \_ Political speech is constitutionally protected. For
                      example, communities that ban door-to-door solicitation
                      still have to allow "canvassing."
        \_ a lot of people must be signing on.  The web site keeps timing out.
           I can't do a successful submission.
           \_ Hit the CA one. It covers both:
        \_ My anti-telemarketing initiative involves GPS and cruise missiles.
           Death to all telemarketers!
        \_ If you though telemarketting was bad, just wait till this takes
           \_ If I can hit the National Do Not Call Registry, do I need to
              enroll through CA's?
           \_ It was on the front page of slashdot today.  Try again Monday.
        \_ My anti-telecommuting initiative involves GPS and cruise missiles.
           Death to all telecommuters!
        \_ If you though telecommutting was bad, just wait till this takes
           off (you won't be able to get any legit mail ever again):
2003/6/25-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:28830 Activity:high
6/25    Asian-Americans have nothing to celebrate (Michelle Malkin )
        \_ Yea, "diversity" pretty screwed up idea in American politics.
           The only diversity that people can understand is skin color
           while its really a lot more.  If you define diversity
           as characteristics that alter the social makeup of a student
           body, it seems that race is one of the least important factors.
           Stuff like religion, politics, personal experience is significantly
           more important.  But of course no one wants to promote real
           diversity and only their own race's interests.
           diversity but only shaping a school's ethinic makeup.
           Sound familiar?
           \_ Your point being?
           \_ Here is perhaps a more balanced article, written by
              someone asian, about Lowell and race-based admissions:
2003/6/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28770 Activity:high
6/19    http://caag.state.ca.us/donotcall
           \_ I joined the DMAs do not send junk mail list and reduced my
              junk mail by at least 2/3s -ausman
                 \_ 1-888-5-OPTOUT.  This will prevent all businesses to
                    use your credit report for marketing purposes.
        \_ now if only there were a national donotsendmeyourfuckingjunkmail
           \_ I joined the DMAs do not send junk mail list and reduced my
              junk mail by at least 2/3s -ausman
              \_ thanks!  does that help with stopping the credit card
                 junk mail?  thats the only stuff that *really* pisses me off,
                 since I can't just throw it away without shredding it.
                 also, most of the junk mail i get(besides the credit card
                 shit) is addressed to "resident" or "occupant".
                 \_ 1-888-5-OPTOUT.  This will prevent all businesses to
                    use your credit report for marketing purposes.
                    \_ but only for a few years, which is lame.
                       \_ That's not true.  They mail you a form and you
                          can choose not to allow your credit report to
                          be shared for marketing purposes forever.  Did
                          you miss that part on the form?
                          \_ actually, i just called the number, and you
                             can opt out forever just using the phone.
        \_ <DEAD>nocall.doj.state.ca.us<DEAD>
           seems easier to remember
           \_ FabUlous. Thanks
2003/6/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:28650 Activity:nil
6/5     This is just bizarre:
        \_ even moreso:
2003/6/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:28645 Activity:high
6/5     Nine Illegal Aliens Arrested [working construction.
        No Americans were willing work perhaps?]
        \_ At the primo rate of $50/day with no more chance of getting into
           the union? Oh yeah, gotta jump on that job.
           \_ HEY! No whining about our free market!
              \_ A market where capital can move freely over borders but
                 labor cannot is not really free.
        \_ They shouldn't arrest the illegals, just ship em south.  They should
           arrest the employers.  That would quickly put an end to all this
           illegal border crossing bullshit.
2003/6/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:28633 Activity:very high
6/4     U.S. property laws allow millions to thrive, prosper
        \_ WRONG! Its all because the evil oppressor polluter
           gun-owner rapist white man raped, murdered and stole
           the Native American's earth and foisted upon it a
           vile capitalist materialist system designed to keep
           the poor people down.
           \_ I am curious. Does anyone but the guy who posted
              this think it is funny? It was midly amusing
              the first time, but it is pretty boring now.
              \_ well the ridiculous thing about the above attempt
                 at comedy is that s/he's trying to be sarcastic,
                 but that is, more or less, the true story.
                 \_ This one is much better.
                 \_ "That's not funny!"  --best punchline
        \_ This is a nice story, but only half of it. Land reform,
           aka The Homestead Act created the rural middle class,
           while Labor allowed urbanites the chance to escape
           poverty. Without legal protection, it would have
           been unsustainable though, I agree with that.
        \_ Hernando DeSoto is generally regarded a crack pot. and
           I dont know if I would consider this "news"... his
           views have been around for a while now, and I'm sure
           there's tons of stuff about him on the web. While
           many "objectivist" top-dog sympathizing libertarians
           will no doubt orgasm at the site of this, he is
           basically an economic advisor to latin american
           politicians grasping at straws to save their economies
           ... and I think he's declining in popularity at that.
           its just scary how much thsi philosophy has caught on.
           \_ There is that passive tense again.  'Regarded' by whom
              \_ Ya know, regarded.  By uhm people.  People who uhm think
                 exactly like the poster does in his 'cell'.
2003/6/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:28605 Activity:very high
6/1     PBS's Pontificator
        \_ Ah, Bill Moyers... societal threat. Evil incarnate. A loose Liberal
           boogieman. Blah, blah, blah. Sheesh, try again. You bore me,
           conservative poster.
           \_ Are you serious?  Accuracy and disclore aren't important to you?
              Is this what's become of 'liberals'?
              \_ Please. When is the last time a casual liberal quoted Bill
                 Moyers to you? I find this motd-unworthy. BORRR-ring
                 \_ What does that have to do with anything?  If Moyers is a
                    raving loon with conflicts of interest, being aired on PBS,
                    he should be nailed to the wall by everyone.  Are you a NY
                    Times journalist?
                    \_ Are you as upset with Haig/Weinberger's World Business
                       Review?  Also gets funding through PBS, also touts
                       itself as journalism, also has major conflict of interest
                       issues. --scotsman
                       itself as journalism, also has major conflict of
                       interest issues. --scotsman
                       \_ Yes.
                       \_ I haven't heard of it, but if what you say is true,
                          then yes I'd be just as upset.  Do you have a link to
                          an article discussing it?  --emarkp
                    \_ Because it's OPINION, not journalism. It's like getting
                       mad at Limbaugh because conservatives give him money.
                       \_ They don't.  He has a contract to do his radio show
                          for $x.  If he stopped doing his show or if his
                          ratings dropped, he'd get kicked off the air.  Rush
                          is paid to bring in audience for advertisers.  If
                          he was a leftists and brought in the same audience
                          he'd get the same money from the same people.
                                \_ He is still carried on many small radio
                                   stations. The fact that 90% of the radio
                                   stations are owned by three media
                                   companies has more to do with the
                                   lack of distribution.
                          \_ Not really true. The Jim Hightower show was
                             hugely popular, but ABC/Disney cancelled it.
                             \_ Apparently not popular enough for someone
                                else to pick up for profit.  Funny how the
                                free market works.
                                \_ He is still carried on many small stations.
                                   The fact that 4 companies control 90%
                                   of the radio market has more to do with
                                   him not being able to be heard by most
                    \_ Compationate conservative that you are, you should feel
                       better that they can now go to your local church.
                                   Americans. Funny how the free market "works"
                                   \_ actually it is 5 controlling 40% but hey,
                                      why bring in facts?  if he was popular,
                                      the free market would sell his show.  he
                                      isn't so he gets banished to the outland.
                          \_ So, he doesn't do speeches for conservative
                             groups for money? Or give endorsements for money?
                             Or get paid for being part of a conservative
                             forum/think tank? Ooo. Never. Extra money? Ick.
                             \_ Not that I know of.  Not that I know of.  Not
                                that I know of.  I do know that his current
                                contract is for $500m.  That's 500 hundred
                                million dollars.  I don't know how many years
                                it covers but I don't think length matters for
                                $500m.  He doesn't need to do any of those
                                things or make "extra money".  He golfs.  If
                                you listened to his show, you'd know that.
                                \_ Sure it matters. You think it's a contract
                                   without behavior clauses or rating limits?
                                   If he's goes DUI and runs over a kid, that
                                   contract vaporized. If he turn demo, ditto.
                                   He's making money while he can do it.
                                   \_ He's probably making $50m a year. You
                                      seriously think he's going to waste his
                                      time on some lame-o Clintonesque speaking
                                      gig for $100k?  You're a) nuts and b)
                                      clearly not a listener of his show.
           \_ the point is Fed tax dollars go to NPR, PBS, and Moyers.
              \_ Less than 2% of NPR's operating budget comes from federal
                 \_ Good.  Then they can do without it.
              \_ Fed Tax dollars go into LOTS of things people disagree with.
                 Defense, ATF, Dept. of Education, etc. Should we ban Frontline
                 for showing things you disagree with?
                 \_ Fed tax dollars should not go into NPR anymore than they
                    should go to my local church.
                    \_ Yah.. wouldn't it be nice if there were a constitutional
           several hundred billion dollar deficit.  Helpless victims
           want a nanny state, from cradle to grave, that someone else pays for.
                       line between state and press?  Then they might actually
                       have an interest in exposing gubmint lies.
                       \_ I'm with you on that.
                    \_ Compassionate conservative that you are, you should feel
                       better that taxes can now go to your local church.
                       \_ I'm not.  I don't.  They should go to neither. Thanks
              \_ tax dollars should go to functions clearly
                 mandated by the Constitution, defense and ATF are enumerated.
                 Neither of these organizations demagogue.
                 \_ So there are nukes in Iraq? And we need those B-2s and
                    mini-nukes? And the Waco fiasco really wasn't part of a
                    failed publicity stunt? Ban the FBI, CIA, OSHA, EPA, and
                    DOE. Who cares about trying to evolve government? Let's
                    suck hard with the strict constitutionalists, re-enslave
                    the blacks and go back to an agrarian landowners society.
                    \_ Probably.  Maybe, you'd be sorry if we did need them
                       and didn't have them.  Evolve government?  There's a
                       process for that which wasn't followed.  Your last
                       comment is trollish nonsense.  You were doing well until
                       you lost it and started spewing and frothing at random.
                        \_ Hmm, Lincoln was the first Republican president and
                           South was solidly democrat until the past decade and
                           a half.
                           \_ It was solidly Democrat BECAUSE Lincoln was a
                              \_ whatever the reason, the Democrats were and
                                 still are the party of southern white racists.
                       \_ It isn't nonsense. You're arguing against those
                          departments because it's not in the Constitution,
                          which is very strict intepretation. It's denies the
                          basis of a dynamic government and offers only one
                          that is set in a late 1700's world and mindset.
                          \_ nonsense = frothing about re-enslaving people.
                             you're being intentionally stupid.  when you
                             stop the rhetorical dancing in the wind, we'll
                             have something to talk about.
                             \_ I did, you missed it. Strict interpretation
                                vs. evolving government. Try harder.
                                \_ Now you're beyond intentionally stupid and
                                   just outright lying with the text right
                                   there to show it.  Amazing.  You win.  I'm
                                   too stunned at your chutzpah to go on.
                                   \_ You're right. I do win. HAHAHA! Watch
                                      my superiority dance, clueless one.
        \_ The mentality in this thread illusrates perfectly why we have a
           several hundred billion dollar deficit.  Helpless victims want a
           nanny state, from cradle to grave, that someone else pays for.
           Then have the audacity to display outrage when the government
           intrudes further into our lives - never making the connection how
           the government acquired the resources and ability to do so in the
           first place.  -op  [formatd]
           \_ No, I just didn't think the original post was really that
              interesting. If you want to find a liberal scapegoat, find one
              that people listen to and agree with to on a regular basis. And
              tear them apart. Who REALLY cares about Bill Moyers?
              \_ The problem with that is there isn't a liberal that people
                 listen to and agree with on a regular basis so we have to
                 make do bashing the extremists, the liars, the criminals and
                 the frauds.
                 \_ I thought the media was Liberal? What about them?
                    \_ As a class.  No individuals worth naming.  Just a large
                       shapeless blob of idiocy chanting the same mantra.  It
                       doesn't matter which one you listen to because they're
                       all the same.
                       \_ So point out where they lie, where they're having
                          conflicts of interest, etc and go from there.
                          Attacking Moyers isn't really worth the effort.
2003/6/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:28600 Activity:moderate
6/1     Great Myths of the Great Depression
        \_ http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/Timeline.htm
           \_ thank you, both of you, for the interesting links.
           \_ Amusing that government employment is included with
              private sector.  They also conveniently leave out FDR
              stacking the entire Supreme Court.
2003/5/27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:28560 Activity:insanely high
5/26    I don't understand why people are opposed to raising taxes for
        people who have more children. It is a fundamental question of
        fairness.  For example, primary and secondary education is funded
        mostly by property taxes at the county and city level.  Two couples
        buy similary priced house and pay roughly the same amt of property tax.
        One couple has 1 kid and another couple has 3 kids.  The couple with
        3 kids is using up more tax payer resources so why shouldn't they
        pay more.  We can't easily restructure the property tax system.  And
        everybody should chip in to make public education work regardless of
        whether you have kids.  But the people whoe use it more should pay
        \_ keeping kids in school lowers crime rates. Think about it as
           social insurance. If you want to pay less in taxes for schools,
           live in a low property value area. You get the idea.
        \_ public education is a service to everyone.  a better educated
           populace (should) translate to a better and more productive
           \_ because everyone who isn't a single male sysadmin making 6 figures
              is a degenerate freeloader who should pay for their own damn
              social services.  haven't you been paying attention? are you
              a commie?
        \_ You can't argue about taxes like this.  You need to state your
           moral philosophy, including what you believe the inherent human
           rights are.  After you do this, the tax system will naturally
           follow.  Without doing this, you are just chewing the fat endlessly.
           workforce.  The benefit is not only to the family with kids.
           So, we have decided (however reluctantly and increasingly
           underfunded) to provide a publicly funded education system.
        \_ What if you look at it this way:  every kid is a future tax
           resource.  Each kid is likely to pay for his own education
           in his life via taxes he pays.  So why stick it to his parents,
           who're kindly providing this future tax resource at great
           expense already?
           \_ because everyone who isn't a single male sysadmin making 6
              figures is a degenerate freeloader who should pay for their
              own damn social services.  haven't you been paying attention?
              are you a commie?
              \_ what is wrong with Commie?
                 \_ maybe you missed the part where the Berlin Wall fell?
                        \_ Perhaps you forgotten your "facts" after
                           leaving Berkeley. The fall of the berlin
                           wall was a due to the uncontrollable
                           destructive, oppressive, exploitive,
                           racist, profiteering, non-collectivist,
                           anti-abortion, anti-worker, earth
                           and woman raping, genocide commiting,
                           firearms bearing, suv driving, slave
                           owing, gay-murdering, witch-hunting,
                           arab hating tendencies of theistic
                           judaea-christian greco-roman anglo-saxon
                           indo-european materialistic capitalist
                           millionare fat-cat pig dog vultures.
                           \_ After I left Berkeley I was free to express the
                              truth without fear of some club bearing, man
                              hating, unshowered butch lesbian trying to beat
                              me to death.  Free at last!  Free at last!  Thank
                              God Almighty, I'm free at last!
                    \_ Perhaps you forgotten your "facts" after leaving
                       Berkeley. The fall of the berlin wall was a due to the
                           \_ I agree.  uncontrolled capitalism of
                              the late 19th century causes the rise
                              of commies.  the kindler, gentler
                              version advocated by liberuls
                              resulted in the fall of the commies.
                           \_ Oh you poor oppressed upper middle class
                              white men!
                       uncontrollable destructive, oppressive, exploitive,
                       racist, profiteering, non-collectivist, anti-abortion,
                       anti-worker, earth and woman raping, genocide commiting,
                       firearms bearing, suv driving, slave owing,
                       gay-murdering, witch-hunting, arab hating tendencies of
                       theistic judaea-christian greco-roman anglo-saxon
                       indo-european materialistic capitalist millionare fat-cat
                       pig dog vultures.
                       \_ After I left Berkeley I was free to express the truth
                          without fear of some club bearing, man hating,
                          unshowered butch lesbian trying to beat me to death.
                          Free at last!  Free at last!  Thank God Almighty, I'm
                          free at last!
                       \_ you forgot the part about 'goat sodomizing
                          baby-murdering, gluttonous'
                       \_ I agree.  uncontrolled capitalism of the late 19th
                          century causes the rise of commies.  the kindler,
                          gentler version advocated by liberuls resulted in the
                          fall of the commies.
           the children!", "family values" issue.
                       \_ Oh you poor oppressed upper middle class white men!
                          \_ Who here is upper middle class?
           \_ Indeed.  Growing up, my folks' income was marginal poverty
              level. I got through Cal on merit- and need-based scholarships,
              loans and work.  In 2000 I paid of the last of my student
              loans and cashed in stock options--and paid more in taxes than
              my parents annual income the year I started Cal.  (Oh, and I'm
              still in CA forking money over in state taxes, so I believe the
              investment has paid off.)
              \_ Are you voting Republican yet?
                 \_ If he's smart, he is.
                 \_ Yes--I have been since I was 18.
              \_ I never paid enough tax for myself in CA before I had to
                 leave in order to get a job.  Damned economy.  I liked CA.
                 \_ CA just got a few billion in bailout (2.x billion?) from the
                    latest budget plan.  Everyone in the US subsidized CA this
                    \_ Only fair since CA pays more in taxes than it gets
                       back almost every year.
                    \_ Too late for me.  I had to leave CA a year ago.  And
                        $2G is a drop in the bucket of CA's problem.  Further,
                        it won't help anyone get a job, it'll just help keep
                        the CA gov't going.
        \_ they have that.  it's called one-child policy in China.  while
           nothing wrong with tax policies to encourage certain birthrate
           pattern, I don't like the way you talked about "fairness"
           in tax policies.  The tax policies is never fair for anyone.
        \_ there's no such thing as a "fair" tax policy.  even a flat tax
           will hurt lower income people more than higher income people.  it
           is time for you to understand that life just isn't fair.  once you
           fully absorb this concept, you'll find the rest of your life is
           much more enjoyable.  sometimes you gotta break an egg to etc etc.
           I've got no kids, I'm married and plan to not have kids and don't
           have a problem with the current system.
        \_ "fairness" is an important criterion for designing and evaluating
           a tax system, however it is not the only criterion.  I tend to
           agree with you that there is too much tax benefits for breeding
           like pigs (dependant, child tax credit, etc., etc.).  However,
           you are going to be very lonely on this cause it's a "think about
           the children!", "family values" issue.  both the democrats and
           the republicans are suckers for these.
           \_ No, actually it's about spending money on them now so they don't
              break into my home later.  Prisons are expensive.
              \_ do it with progressive tax which doesn't encourage breeding
                 as much as child tax crdit.  or give child tax credit to
                 the first two kids only.   if you can't educate your kids
                 well, stop breeding, or at least, don't expect me to
                 subsidize your breeding.
                 \_ Right -- it's much better to subsidize a larger police
                    force and much more extensive and overcrowded jails after
                    those kids break into your home and rape your wife when
                    they become adults.
                    \_ education hasn't worked.  The current system already
                       subsidizes the poor.  How has that worked out?  Kids are
                       still dropping out.  Throwing money at the problem
                       hasn't done anything.  Washington DC has the highest
                       tax burden of any region.  It still has one of the
                       highest murder rates in the country.  Taking away these
                       subsidies and steralizing people on welfare will get
                       rid of the problem once and for all.  No bad kids, no
                       problem.  Also sterlizing illegal immigrants arrested
                       in the U.S.  Just to cover all the bases.
        \_ Actually, all tax laws in CA are hard to change. You need the
           magic 2/3+1 supermajority to pass tax laws. Perhaps you're thinking
           of charging a "fee" for use of public education? Think about how
           hard that is for the UC and CSU system and multiply it by 10.
           \_ Not hard at all.  Didn't they just raise UC rates by $500 or
              more?  I also read summer students got hit with a bonux $150
              charge only a few days before summer classes started.  -alum
           \_ No you don't.  They changed the law, or didn't you hear to only
              require 55%.
           \_ A judge can change the law whenever he feels like it.  It used to
              be the case that local property taxes went to local schools.
              Judicial fiat changed that.
2003/5/20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:28495 Activity:high
5/20    http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/rockford/20030520-4814.shtml
        More right wing nutters who don't understand free speech.
        \_ Dear Mr. Pot, this is mr. Kettle.
           \_ God Bless America!!
        \_ You have to sound more enthusiastic to be a believable liberal.
           \_ I'm working on it. I've got the basic vocabulary down and I got
              the talking points off the fax each morning.  If I can nail the
              delivery I'll be able to drool with the best of 'em!  -op
              \_ First of all... "nutter"? What are you some kind of fucking
                 limey or something?
        \_ aww, but the speaker made the little Education graduate CRY!
           \_ This rocks. We need more liberals that can make the
              conservatives cry like that.
              \_ Because that will convince her to vote your way?  Okey dokey!
                 Good planning!  Because you can convince people of the
                 correctness of your philosophy by abusing them. I like it!
                 \_ Why not? This has been conservative-talk-show-host strategy
                    for the past decade or so. The approach has won these,
                    er, entertainers, a legion of fans, many of whom post
                    regularly on the motd. Go Michael Savage!
                    \_ The radio personalities that bring you to tears aren't
                       making new conservative voters which is all that counts.
                       Stop crying about Rush and Savage and whoever and *do*
                       something to convince people of the correctness of your
                       philosophy and you'll make it happen.  Upsetting voters
                       never got anyone anything.  Savage is light
                       entertainment.  Sometimes he's even correct.  If you
                       say enough stuff, that will happen sometimes.  Rush is
                       nothing more than repeating RNC talking points.  There
                       isn't anything original in his show.  It's 100% party
                       platform stuff.  Shows like theirs are not at all where
                       conservative strength is.  --conservative
                       \_ Your argument is tangent as well as incorrect.
        \_ This is akin to giving an Oscar to Michael Moore and then
           not expecting him to make a political statement.  Get over it.
           \_ and I imagine all the Academy members would throw their caps
              into the air, go back to live with their parents, then look for
2003/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:28487 Activity:high
5/19    Here's one vote for extermination of the human race.  Its obvious
        that we just can't live up to the standards set by the CSUA motd,
        so we're better off with universal suicide.  Who knows, maybe
        evolution will produce an intelligent race less concerned with
        narcissism and self-aggrandizement.
        \_ Tch, tch... Where were you during the nuke war fantasies of the
           early 80's? Po' chile, missed out on it?
           \_ They weren't fantasies.  The world was almost destroyed several
              times from the mid 60's until The Wall fell.
              \_ Compare and contrast that to Sodans almost getting laid.
              \_ Another time coming up with the threats from North Korea.
                 \_ NK?  Piffle.  That's not world destruction.  At worst,
                    they'll hit SK or Japan once or twice.  Their odds of
                    hitting SD/LA/SF are about zero given that they've never
                    tested anything with that range and don't claim it.  After
                    the maybe nuke Japan/SK, we launch and wipe them off the
                    planet, everyone sheds a tear, makes a pretty speech at
                    the UN, life goes on for the other 6+ billion people.
2003/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Prop] UID:28485 Activity:very high
5/18    Thank you Gray Davis, who increased state employement by 30%, and
        who rewards his primary contributor, the Prison Unions, with fat
        pay raises.
        Vehicle-tax plan praised - Fee hike would spare drastic local cuts
        \_ I'm really tired of all this budget bullshit.  Is there not a
           single state that believe in fiscal responsibility?    Any state
           that require balanced budget in their constitution?
           \_ The last time California ran budget surpluses during a boom
              time, we had a "taxpayers revolt" and ended up with Prop 13.
              We get what we deserve here. Every recession is like this.
              Remember Pete Wilson's big round of tax increases?
              \_ No, we had prop 13 because people were losing their houses.
                 I was here and I remember it.
                 \_ People were not losing their homes. That was all
                    \_ Idiot.  I was there.  Get out of the ivory tower and
                       join the real world where real people are hurt or helped
                       everyday by the real decisions real politicians make.
                       \_ I was there too. Everyone wants to pay
                          less taxes, but the money for things like schools
                          has to come from someplace. School quality in
                          California, which had been in the top 10% of
                          the country, plummeted and has stayed low since.
                          How old were you when this happened? No way can
                          you remember what was really going on. If you
                          go back and look at the newspaper archives, you
                          will find one or two people on fixed incomes who
                          supposedly lost their homes, out of a state with
                          a population of 20M. You live in a fantasyland.
                          \_ Yeah all the neighbors who put their houses up for
                             sale and left the state were just figments of my
                             deranged and aged mind.  CA has many reasons for
                             being at the bottom of the school rankings, not
                             teaching the "three Rs" anymore is the primary
                 \_ And now people are losing their houses because they can't
                    afford the property tax that's subsidizing the people who
                    are benefitting from prop 13. Irony is delicious. Munch.
                    \_ The problem with prop 13 is that while it was
                       motivated by a need to protect a primary residence
                       from fluctuations in the real estate market, it
                       was written to include *all* property.  For humans,
                       frozen contribution rates on a primary residence
                       are a good way to apportion the total tax burden
                       over the life of the taxpayer.  For coporations and
                       other entities that never die, Prop 13 is a nightmare
                       that has only just started crushing our economy.
                       \_ Actually it's been crushing it a while. Each
                          economic downturn just emphasizes it. When the
                          economy recovers, it'll be forgotten again. After
                          you finish the cookie, you'll feel right as rain.
                          \_ Can someone explain what prop13 is?
                             \_ Quickie version: In 1978, property taxes
                                assessed according to 1976 prices with a max
                                +2% change until prop sold. Then it's
                                reassessed and taxed at current price. Note 2%
                                is below COLA and certainly way below real
                                estate increase. Plus, to raise taxes takes
                                2/3 vote of the legistlature.
                                \_ Only because we learned the term "double
                                   digit inflation" under Jimmy Carter. In any
                                   sane world, the COLA would be about 2%.
                                   \_ Communist!
                                   \_ Ford invented double digit inflation.
                                      Carter just carried on the tradition.
                                      \_ Ford?  Oh pleeeeeaaaaase.  It's the
                                         only thing the news talked about for
                                         his entire term.  Oh yeah, that and
                                         the Hostage Crisis.
2003/5/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Finance/CC] UID:28434 Activity:moderate
5/13    I am just being a lazy ass, so, I'll just ask my question here.  In
        California, does a divorcing couple split up all of the debts owed by
        either or both of them just as they do with their wealths?  Such as
        student loans, home equity line, credit cards, etc.
        \_ Yes. Wait, no. Maybe.
        \_ I eagerly await BDG's answer.
        \_ Stuff earned during marriage is split.  Stuff not earned during
           marriage which was kept apart such as student loans is not.
           \_ After 10 years, I think everything is split.
              \_ So she'll make sure to rack up a lot of debt before she
                 dumps you, since 50% of it won't be her problem and the
                 alimony will cover the other half. Her bf will keep her
                 living large and you'll share a studio with your divorced
                 college buddy.
                 \_ california hasn't had alimony for eons
                    \_ "Spousal support"
2003/5/14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Health/Disease/General] UID:28432 Activity:nil
5/13    Stock up on Oreo's while they are still legal:
        \_ They are racist, its a good thing.
2003/5/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28345 Activity:nil
5/5     I say we invade Israel for possesing weapon of massive destruction
        and consistant records of violation of international laws, and
        aggression toward its neighbors.
        \_ And being the only mid east state to allow arabs to vote and the
           mid east state responsible for the fewest arabs deaths in the last
           50 years and the only democratic mid east state and the only mid
           east state to support the US in the UN general assembly more than
           20% of the time.  Those jew bastards, I so hate having such a solid
           democratic ally in such an ugly part of the world.  We should ally
           ourselves with peace loving terrorist dictatorships like the PLO.
           \_ Democracy has NOTHING to do with it.  Lighten up.  Look at
              our OTHER allies: Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? UAE? what do they have
              in common? Absolute Monarchy!  And... if anything, *IRAN* has
              a democracy!  It just that their democracy is very different
              than what we got over here.
                \_ You can't have a democracy if there is no freedom of ideas,
                freedom of the press, etc. If you're too progressive, you'll
                get the death sentence in Iran...
                -dated an Iranian, I guess that makes me an expert.
        \_ It's really simple, Sam:  If the other side has suicide bombers,
           all bets are off.
           \_ Stupid logic trap.  Suicide bomber are only thing they got.
              without it, Israel will never even consider return land
              which they conquered.
2003/4/22 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:28192 Activity:high
4/22    http://www.kfwb.com/news_local.asp?displayOption=&contentGUID={8DCDFABA-C25A-42B9-B367-752F5C1F8FFD}&groupName=KFWB%20Main%20Headline&siteGUID={3B62BF55-4A93-48E6-A45D-6A495DC423AD}
        California going to run out of money and start handing out IOU's to
        vendors.  Thank God we have Democrats running the state or we'd
        *really* be in trouble!  We need people with guts in office who have
        what it takes to raise taxes without cutting any programs.
        \_Yeah, let's raise taxes, that'll really help... What's the deal
        with Northern Californians anyway, are you guys just stupid or what?
        Get out of your commie state-run mentality. The reason why we're in
        the mess we're in is because of stupid half-assed policies like
        deregulating only half the energy system, having some of the highest
        corporate taxes in the union, and anti-business laws like dissallowing
        drilling off shore completely with no recourse for other income.
        Get back under your anti-war, anti-business, anti-free market rock
        and let someone who has a clue run the state. And for crying out loud,
        stop voting in dumbassess like Pelosi, she should be muzzled and shot.
        \_ Same thing happened back when pete wilson was governor...
           \_ Yeah, good comparison - it was a one-party system back then,
              too. Know the diff betwen slow economic times cuz of cycles and
              one's own stupid decisions.
2003/4/22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:28184 Activity:insanely high
4/21    Further evidence of how fucked up California, in
        particular SF, has become (a multicultural utopia).
        Bill would force hiring of cross-dressers
        \_ and the Klan has to hire them black people to do their organizing!
        \_ No bible shop is complete without a flaming queen cross dresser.
        \_ If you don't like California so much, why not move to a place more
           to your liking?  I hear they kick some faggot ass up in Laramie,
           \_ Funny how when the other side says to folks, "America, love it
              or leave it", you lefties get upset but it's ok for you to
              blather out little lines like that.
              \_ Because "Love it or leave it" has an implicit threat.  His
                 question is formed as just that.  A question.
                \_ good point!
                   \_ I know you are but what am I?
                      \_ A hypocrite if you're a "California, love it or
                         leave it!" leftist.
                         \_ I also love how you completely missed the
                            reference to Matthew Shepard.
                            \_ I didn't miss it.  I ignored it because it was
                               meaningless in this context.  It may come as a
                               shock to you but some people who don't share
                               your politics read newspapers and watch cnn.
        \_ You don't know jack shit about what was here before 1960.
           Read a little history. This place has been a little different
           since the first tent went up in Yerba Buena. Of course straight
           idiots have decorated it from time to time.
           -- born here, been here.
           \_ actually that's not true.
                \_ You have no sense of history.  Kerouac and the rest of
                   the beatniks (a term coined by Herb Caen) were here in
                   the 50's, and were attracted to the area by its alternative
                   culture.  -tom
                   \_ Ding!  Indeed.  Also, read up on the suffrage movement,
                      the hallucinigen researchers in the 30's and 40's, etc.
                      My family has lived here since well before the turn of
                      the century.  California has always been "progressive",
                      though I think a better term is "tolerant." --scotsman
                      \_ Really?  Tell that to the natives, the Spanish and
                         the Mexicans.
                         \_ Okay, granted, my use of the term "always" was
                            ill-advised, but this comment is irrelevant to
                            the current discussion. --scotsman
                            \_ Not if you're a native, or Spanish or Mexican.
                               The fact is this state has only been so-called
                               'progressive' if you're part of a big group that
                               has votes, money, power, or some other form of
                               control over the government and media.
        \_ California has been the land of the risk-takers and the eccentric
           since the gold rush in 1849.  For example, Joshua Norton, a failed
           speculator on the rice market, flipped his lid in the 1850s and
           declared himself Norton I, Emperor of the United States and
           Protector of Mexico, becoming the first famous homeless person
           in San Francisco.  Tourists from all over the country knew his
           name.  He minted his own money, dissolved the union in the Civil
           War, and declared there should be a suspension bridge connecting
           Oakland and San Francisco, at the time a ridiculous notion.
           He also was known for stopping a race riot, making him one of
           the earliest Bay Area activists.                     -brain
           \_ The gold-mad and profiteers are a big part of the story, but
              the Mormon settlement Brennan created amidst the Russian
              holdings can't be ignored when trying to understand how we
              found enough stability to keep the region from tearing
              itself apart.
           \_ What does some random insane guy from the 1800s have to do with
              modern politics in CA?
              \_ Not just any random insane guy.  Over 10,000 people attended
                 his funeral.
                 \_ Yes, that still has nothing to do with anything regarding
                    politics in CA in the last century.
                       HAPPENED BEFORE 1900! HISTORY IS A LIE!
                       \_ What's 1900? This is the year "03" and there
                          aren't any non-positive years, right?
                       \_ Idiot, don't put words in my mouth.  I said no such
                          thing and claiming it in ALL CAPS doesn't make it so.
                          The funeral attendance for one insane guy from 150+
                          years ago has *nothing* to do with modern politics in
                          this state.  That is at best a minor footnote in the
                          history of this state.  Why do I respond to such
                          infantile noise anyway?
        \_ They already have laws like this in much of Europe and somehow
           the sky hasn't fallen in there. -ausman
           \_ Really?  Seen the unemployment rate in Germany and many other
              EU countries?  Their economies are wrecked.  Ours is doing
              fantastically well by comparison.  Not only that but we have the
              additional burden of essentially being the EU military.  Let's
              bring the troops home, let the EU defend themselves and see
              what happens.  I bet the sky falls.
                \_ not discriminating against cross dressers leads to
                   the economy falling apart?
                 4-6% are "discouraged" workers, which don't count in
                   \_ Nice try.  Go check the unemployment stats.  I'll explain
                      since you insist on being intentionally stupid: having an
                      endless array of laws that restrict and over control the
                      economy leads to inefficiencies which leads to a poor
                      economy and high unemployment rates.  See the Soviet
                      Union for a great example of what should have been a
                      power house economy collapsing in on itself due to
                      over control and lack of incentive.
                      \_ Hm, I suspect that you're neglecting to take
                         into account that the Soviet Union was a massive
                         military state.  I'd be willing to bet that had more
                         to do with it's complete collapse than 'over control'.
                         \_ The US was also a massive military state during the
                            same period of time.  Yet they collapsed and the
                            US only grew stronger.
                            \_ Not really. I can probably dredge
                               up numbers if you care, but the soviet union
                               was maintaining an active wartime economy
                               for decades.  Compare the relative sizes of
                               the militaries for the US and Soviet Union
                               in the late 80's.  If my memory serves
                               correctly (at least wrt to armor units) the
                               Soviets had NATO outnumbered by a factor of
                               3-1 or something obscene like that.  As a side
                               note, I don't think the US has had a wartime
                               economy since WWII, though I'm probably
                               mistaken.  You might also want to recall that
                               the degree of corruption was obscene and
                               certainly didn't help.
                      \_ cross-dressing laws are like communism? go
                         fucking read atlas shrugged five more tiems or
                         \_ I'm done responding to the intentionally stupid.
                            If you don't have a real response, don't bother.
                            I've been trolled enough by you and have given up
                            trying to draw you into a real conversation on the
              \_ I'll take that bet.
                 \_ If you can get the troops home and get the EU to pay for
                    their own defense I'd vote for you for President and
                    happily concede the bet.
              \_ Don't kid yourself. GDP/hour worked has been increasing
                 faster in Western Europe than in the US for over a
                 generation. They also have more free time, longer,
                 healthier lives and a more even income distribution. The
                 US unemployment figures only look good because 2% of
                 our working age population is in prison and another
                 2-6% are "discouraged" workers, which don't count in
                 the official statistics. Germany and France are running
                 favorable trade surpluses and have a smaller government
                 deficit. I agree with you about bringing the troops
                 in Europe home, though. We cannot afforde to subsidize
                 European defence any longer. -ausman
                 \_ Do you have figures for GDP/hour worked?  Not the rate of
                    increase but the raw value, like $x/1hour?  What's x?
                    Rates aren't that interesting if it'll take 50 years to
                    catch up.
                  \_ Unemployment in Germany in >25% in many areas (e.g.
                     Berlin).  The only commercially viable area is Bavaria.
                     Most of Europe enforces a maximum work week of
                     35-40 hours to keep unemployment down - this is a sign
                     of a strong economy?  French and German
                     pension liabilities are
                     well in excess of their GDPs, and in France between
                     1/3 and 1/2 of all children under 10 are Muslim.
                     Europe is economic powerhouse, indeed.  Their are
                     Muslim slums in France where the police do not ever
                     go, they have lost complete control of these areas.
2003/4/14 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:28119 Activity:nil
4/14    Mallard Fillmore (conservative policital comic) claimed
                today that when Reagan lowered taxes, revenue doubled.
                Is that true?  If so, how is that possible?
        \_ wow you actually think things in Mallard Fillmore
           are true?  mf is a piece of crap that comics page editors
           are contractually obligated to print to balance
           doonesbury. - danh
        \_ No idea if it's true but the idea is that due to lower taxes people
           and business have more money available to spend in the economy
           instead of throwing it away to the government thus making more
           taxable transactions occur.  Imagine if the tax rate was 100%.  Who
           would bother working?  If it was 0% people would keep more of what
           they earned and spend more but then we wouldn't have any government
           services.  The key is to find the right balance.  We're still
           \_ Right, but lowering taxes while massively increasing defense
              spending (and the deficit) doesn't do any good at all.  The
              increases in interest rates that result more than offset the
              positive effects of the tax cuts.
              \_ I like to look at defense spending as wealth redistribution
                 that benefits engineers among many others.
                 \_ For one thing, that doesn't address the offsetting effect
                    of higher interest rates and huge federal debts.  For
                    another, the positive economic effects of defense spending
                    are completely overrated.  Rather than creating investment
                    for products that create further positive economic benefits
                    (for example, building a delivery truck which allows a new
                    business to make deliveries), defense spending only creates
                    products that blow things up.
                    \_ Gee, you're arguing for general effects, and I'm just
                       glad that I'm getting some pork barrel from the
                       government.  Yes, there are negative general
                       consequences, but those negative effects are paid for
                       by everyone.  So long as the benefits that I share
                       with a smaller group outweigh the negatives shared
                       with everyone, I still win.
         \_ getting your econ data from a really lame comic strip
            is not recommended.
            http://csua.org/u/d18 - danh
         \_ and even more!
            <DEAD>www.boss-tweed.com/mallard/mallardindex.html<DEAD> - danh
        \_ revenue doubling is probably fiction.  total tax revenue did
           generally increase in the years after the the reagan tax cut
           of '81.  the percentage of tax paid by the upper bracket
           increased also.  however, it's silly to talk about tax revenue
           purely in terms of the effect from tax cut.  there are a lot of
           other things happening that affect total revenue more.
2003/4/10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:28073 Activity:nil
4/11    Do you really think Democracy will work in Iraq?  What if everyone
        votes to have another form of government?
2003/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27959 Activity:very high
4/2     Show your opposition to secret courts in the US:
        Oppose knee-jerk "victims' rights" amendment to Constitution
        (especially if you're registered in California)
        \_ Yawn....
           \_ Bush stole my evil rights and all I got was a long dirt nap.
        \_ we doing this for the sake of democracy and human right for all.
           \_ Bush stole my civil rights and all I got was a long nap.
              \_ Blah blah blah blah blah.  Whatever.  This whole thing is
                 just troll bait from the start.
2003/3/24 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27829 Activity:high
3/24    Continuing the Electoral College thread. Say the Presidential
        election was to be decided by popular vote from now on. Would
        candidates even bother campaigning in states like New Mexico
        or Idaho? Bush would have also spent much more time campaigning
        in California and Gore would have spent more time campaigning
        in Florida.
        \_ Probably not.  So what?  You think it makes sense for votes in
           Wyoming to count for more than votes in California?  -tom
           \_ Yes.  It was a founding principle.  It would be nice if each
              electoral vote were determined by district too, with the winner
              of the state getting the 2 extra.  If you want to change what's
              been in place for over 200 years, go for it.  You know the proc.
           \_ Heard of protecting the minority against tyranny of the
              \_ That's a red herring, unless you think "People from
                 Wyoming" are a minority group in need of protection. -tom
                 \_ Of course.  They represent rural interests.
                    Another example - If minority interests are not
                    protected, every drop of the colorado river
                    might have been diverted to Los Angeles.
                    \_ like I said, a red herring.  -tom
                       \_ We are talking about Electoral College
                          in general right?  You do not believe that
                          people living in less densely populated
                          areas and less densely populated states
                          often have interests different and in
                          conflict with those living in major
                          urban centers?
                          \_ I believe there are hundreds of different
                             groups with different interests in the US, and
                             that "rural people" do not deserve special
                             protection, compared to, say "black people" or
                             "men".      -tom
                             \_ Except that the former is written into the
                                constitution and the latter isn't.
                                \_ well, actually, the latter is as well.
                                   The purpose of the electoral college was
                                   not to protect the interests of rural
                                   voters, and it's silly to suggest that
                                   it should be.  -tom
                          \_ Sure they do, but why should their votes
                             count for more? -!tom
                             \_ someone else said before: it isn't that they
                                count for more.  it's to make sure they count
                                at all.  they still barely count as it is.
                                \_ yeah, that must be why 80-90% of the
                                   water in California goes to farmers, they
                                   get screwed because we elect our
                                   governor democratically.  -tom
        \_ Why don't you read what the writers of the Constitution
           thought about democracy and the parallel events in France.
        \_ I didn't see the earlier thread so excuse me if this was said before
           but this is a republic (or close to it), not a democracy.  It's all
           nice to talk about democratic ideals but you can't run a country of
           any real size that way.  To my knowledge there are no true
           democracies right now (or anything close) and haven't been since the
           Greeks experimented with it and even theirs was a limited form.
           \_ every democratic nation in the world, except for us, chooses
              its president/prime minister on the basis of popular vote.
              No one else sees a need for an "electoral college."  -tom
        \_ Under the current Electoral College system, California is worth
           so many more votes than Wyoming that the effect is virtually
           the same.  The way you beat the California edge is by winning
           a coalition of Mid-West States that vote along similar lines
           and bring in more votes combined.  The EC only extended reasonable
           protections when the population was small:  Rhode Island's
           guaranteed 2 votes were worth something when the total vote tally
           was in the low hundreds.  If you want true rural representation,
           allocate EC votes to voting districts, not winner-takes-all.
2003/3/24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27825 Activity:very high
3/24    Michael Moore is a fat whiny twit, and a not particularly bright or
        witty one at that.  I thought I should point that out.  -John
        \_ I doubt anyone was particularly surprised that he took time
           to speak his mind (as that's what his career is based on),
           and I thought it was pretty nifty for him to invite his fellow
           documentarians up on stage with him.  As for the rest, I can
           understand why you'd say that, and I can also see why people
           think otherwise.  He earned a lot of cred with "Roger and Me."
        \_ I think it's pretty silly that everyone criticises hollywood
           celebrities for using their "soapbox" of fame to get whatever
           message they may have out.  yes, they're mostly idiots.  but it's
           the press's fault that they treat what hollywood people say
           as news.  what if they treated everything we say on the motd as
           news?  I realize that Moore is not part of hollywood exactly,
           but people have been making a stink about this issue recently,
           and i think it's relevant.
           \_ Hey, he gets his opinion, I get mine.  And why voicing an
              opinion about his personality constitutes a judgment on any
              "issue" is beyond me.
        \_ sort of like you.
           \_ Hey, great point.  You're pretty funny.  Do you sign your
              posts, or do you just make kneejerk anonymous digs?  Do you
              think dumbshit cowards like you deserve anything but scorn?
              Sad pathetic fuck.  -John
              \_ I think Moore acted like an idiot too.  I mean it may be
                 a war fought on "fictitious" reasons, but Bush won the
                 election fair and square, nothing fictitious about that.
                 That Bush is a moron doesn't change that fact.
                 \_ I respectfully disagree:  The number of votes by which
                    Bush "won" was so slight as to be well within the
                    the statistical margin of error for an election of
                    this size.  Further, machinations by Republican
                    appointees to the Supreme Court made a controversial
                    decision that lent legititmacy to an otherwise shady
                    outcome.  I don't expect that to sway you, but I want
                    you to know that I disagree.  --erikred
                    \_ Well put.  I agree.  - some other guy
                        \_ He won, period.  Every reasonable vote count since
                           has come to the same conclusion.  The Supreme Court
                           simply preempted the state legislature and expedited
                           a foregone outcome.  The Florida Supreme Court severly
                           overstepped its delegated powers and deserved to be
                           smacked down.  The relevant USSC decision was 7-2.
                           The legal opinion is available, search for it.
                           Whether Bush won by 500 votes or 50,000 is irrelevant.
                           No president has had a majority of votes since Reagan.
                           \_ Keep towing that line.
                              \_ And if you're feeling frisky, you can toe
                                 that line too.
                           \_ Recounting all of the ballots in Florida would
                              have led to a Gore victory, according to NYT,
                              Washington Post, et al. Or is that not a
                              "reasonable count" in your definition, since
                              it does not give the conclusion that you
                                \_ Go read the legal opinions and decisions.
                                   Don't demagogue from a point of ignorance, at
                                   least be intellectually honest and research
                                   it yourself.  USSC decision 7-2.  The same
                                   thing happened to Nixon against Johnson.
                                   Nixon chose not to litigate it.
                                   \_ Got the decision.  More specious was
                                      whether the Supreme Court should have
                                      reviewed the case at all.
                                      Also, the number of votes is important
                                      to our claim of being a democratic
                                      country and opens the discussion for
                                      the need for severe electoral reform.
                                        \_ Electoral reform, for what?
                                           Do you understand the point of
                                           the electoral college
                                           or why Senators, until Wilson, were
                                           elected by state legislators?  Please,
                                           again, to be intellectually honest
                                           with yourself learn about the
                                           electoral college and read the legal
                                           \_ do you understand why no other
                                              democracy uses an electoral
                                              college?  -tom
                                              \_ none as old as our's.
                                              \_ Yes. The EC is what gives
                                                 states equal footing in the
                                                 national discourse. It allows
                                                 for equal representation of
                                                 ideas in our REPUBLIC (not
                                                 a democracy).
                                        \_ Could it be because we are not
                                           nor were ever meant to be a
                                                   \_ We have the opportunity
                                                      to have an educated
                                                      electorate vote in
                                                      free elections for
                                                      elected representatives.
                                                      Times have changed since
                                                      1776.  It's time we
                                                      changed with them.  Thus
                                                      the call for reform.
        "One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with
        complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's
        presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear.
        It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian
        of the rule of law. I respectfully dissent." -Justice Stevens
        (writing for the 4 dissenting judges who voted against the
         decision awarding the election to Bush, not 2, like you imply)
        \_ This was not the relevant decision.  There were two decisions handed
           down, one 5-4, the other 7-2.
2003/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27745 Activity:nil
3/18    Just curious.  The person who claimed the US would be backing off the
        war noise over the next several weeks and how you "told us so!!!!":
        do you still believe your earlier statements?  I'm the one who said
        about a week ago that this coming weekend would be the start.
        \_ When the bombs drop, I'll admit I was wrong.  I wasn't trying
           to troll either.
           \_ is your point simply that behaving irrationally, or bluffing,
           are effective means of diplomacy?
              \_ Whoever said it was effective?  Anyways, I still think the
                 U.S. won't do anything until it gets support from Russia,
                 France, and China.  I wouldn't be surprised if the troops
                 sit there for a month waiting for Iraq to surrender
                 (which it won't).
                \_ You are living in the past.  Many people fail to
                   understand Bush.  He is not a complex man, what you see
                   is what you get.  Unlike Clinton, he means what he says.
                   \_ at least I had a job when Clinton was in office.
                        \_ As an intern?
                           \_ I miss the intern days.  The WH was so much more
                              fun when we took government seriously and we
                              smoked out and nailed all the interns and stroke
                              of the pen, law of the land... sigh.  Oh for the
                              dotcom days when we all had bubble jobs based on
                              VC money with no business plans.
                   \_ What I see is a moron.  Is that what I get?  He could
                      have gotten much more support for the war, and made it
                      much easier for American troops and tax payers if he
                      and his underlings just learn some basic diplomatic
                      \_ Could he have?  France has been obstructing US
                         efforts to control Iraq the whole time.
                      \_ So you figure he could've gotten the votes in from
                         France/Russia/China how exactly?  Do you understand
                         how diplomacy works?  To get their vote in a useless
                         body (the UN), we'd have to buy them off with
                         something that has real value.  You're so smart, how
                         about I give you my vote at the next CSUA meeting and
                         in exchange you give me 50 bucks.  That sounds good
                         to me and you'd show good diplomacy.  I'd not veto
                         your resolution to oppose the war or something.
                         \_ I am not referring to getting votes, but
                            generating bad vibes all over.  Even in terms
                            of getting votes, if the Bush administration has
                            done it smarter instead of like a gung-ho cowboy,
                            he may very well have gotten enough votes to
                            force a French veto rather than having to
                            withdraw the resolution.  Even magazines like the
                            Economist which openly supported the war thought
                            Bush and his underlings screwed up the diplomacy
                            big time.
                            \_ Ok, I'll buy that.  Yes, there are some bad
                               vibes.  Maybe it could've been better, maybe
                               not.  Either way I believe the French were hell
                               bound to veto anything that would had a trigger
                               clause in it.  I believe that because they said
                               so so many times.  The WH reaction to that was
                               too flustered but in the end most countries
                               either already liked/hated us and will continue
                               to do so as before.  The long term effect on
                               how much any other country likes/hates us is
                               about zero because this isn't a play ground.
                               \_ we got UN support in Afghanistan, and in
                                  Iraq last time, so the assertion that
                                  France was going to veto stuff just because
                                  they "don't like us" is not only absurd, it's
                                  contradicted by history.  -tom
2003/3/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27709 Activity:high
3/15    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/14/moran.remarks
        "If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for
        this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this."
        \_ is it really necessary to have two motd threads on this topic
           at the same time?
        \_ Jews should fight their own wars, it's nearly time the started.
           \_ yes, because the next point is "Did anyone see the dateline
              on NBC where they talked about how ashcroft && his zionistic
              party have been trying to get a "friendly" white house adminis.
              since the early 80s?  And now we have to take an in increasing
              "fight israel's wars for them" stance as part of what is now
              called the "Bush Doctrine".
        \_ Jews should fight their own wars, it's nearly time they started.
           and without any "aid".
           \_ J00s 0wn0rz j00!
           \_ that aid is the only thing keeping israel from crushing all
              their neighbors who want them dead.  they did just fine without
              any aid for several decades.  as a pro-zionist i think they'd
              be better off not selling their souls for american money and
              doing unto their enemies what their enemies have been trying to
              do to them for more than half a century.
            \_ Isreal was the focal point for the Cold War in the Middle East.
               All of the conflicts were, at least in part, proxy wars
               between the US and the Soviets.
        \_ ok, ok, let's just get it over with (again): we all hate jews.
           there.  doesn't that feel better to just say it?  i know i feel
           better about hating jews now.  you should too.
        \_ People forget that France did aid the fledgling state of Israel with
           fighter jets first.
        \_ I don't think Israel would go on a crushing rampage if we
           cut all our aid to them.  Their economy right now is a bunch
           of crap and they have a couple of million impoverishered
           Palestinians with little to no economic future camped
           right next door.
2003/3/10 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27644 Activity:high
3/9     What's peoples' general view of the economic situation in California
        right now, specifically regarding the technology/job market?  This
        seems like an interesting place to ask (lots of people with academic
        backgrounds working in the industry).  I'm curious because we're
        generally considered to be about 6 months behind the US cyclically,
        and I'm interested in getting an idea of how people feel about the
        economy right now.  Bottomed out?  Getting worse/better?  -John
        \_ If we start dropping bombs, we'll head for a bottom.  within
           a quarter or so, we'll reach that bottom.
           \_ nonsense.  the economy is waiting for the war to be over before
              anyone is willing to spend money on anything.  business hates
        \_ I started job search maybe 3 weeks ago.  Things are still 'bad',
           but nowhere near as bad as they were 6-9 months ago when other
           friends of mine were looking. -dans
           \_ ditto here
        \_ California economy will be in the toilet until Bush
           is out of office.
           \_ California economy is in the toilet as long as Davis is in
              \_ 1998-2000? Seemed pretty good to me.
                 \_ Hello?  It was based on VC money and lies.
        \_ I think the Bay Area is still in aweful shape.  Of the unsolicited
           resumes that I sent out, they all got suck into the blackholes; no
            \_ maybe your resume sucks?
        \_ There's still room to drop before going back up. Lots of problems
           still with housing costs and lower wage nonprofessionals plus the
           VCs aren't gonna get over their bubble anxiety attack. If the war
           goes as predicted, the Bay Area won't see a return to 1996 levels
           for at least five years. That would get us back to a hopeful,
           preboom happiness. Good jobs, but no widespread boom.
2003/3/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27614 Activity:nil
3/6     Has Bush ever explained how exactly he's going to pay for this war?
        During the gulf war, the other bush demanded that the western countries
        chip in and pay up.  Rightfully so I thought.  But with unilateral
        action, we'll have to pay for it all ourselves.  Why do I have a feeling
        that we're going to read his lips and get shafted with higher taxes?
        \_ What don't you understand about deficit spending?
        \_ He mentioned it yesterday. He'd just ask Congress for the money.
           \_ and how is congress going to get the money if we have a deficit?
              I guess the treasury will start auctioning 30 year bonds again.
              They stopped issuing those since 2001.
        \_ He'll just get rid of all the useless shit in the budget.
           \_ like the military?
2003/3/6-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27609 Activity:very high
3/6     Mall t-shirt part II: http://csua.org/u/a48
        Now the mall wants to drop the charges because they know they
        screwed up bigtime.
        \_ dropping charges doesn't mean anything.  They want to
           apprehend the person who is in their view politically incorrect.
           By arrest him first, file charges later, then release him,
           The mall has achieved this goal.  Same tactics is oftened
           used in mainland China.  Most people gets the message and
           become silent afterwards.
           \_ Um, okay.  Most people would consider this a victory for
              the demonstrators and the guy who was arrested.  He's probably
              not planning on being silent since he's considering a lawsuit.
              I think a reasonable person would say the mall failed
              miserably and that this will send a message to malls
              across the country that they shouldn't try the same thing.
              \_ call me a greedy bastard.  What I really want to see is
                 a civil lawsuit against the mall.  As previous motd
                 stated, there is no law (hence protection) governing
                 this kind of issue in New York State.  Consider that
                 New York is the 2nd largest State in the Union.  Such
                 law is long overdue.
                        \_ What you don't seem to understand is businesses
                           don't want such a law, neither do a probable
                           majority of the public.  So in the sense anything
                           is overdue, it would be annuling California's
                           \_ California isn't the only state with limited
                 \_ California's law does not provides that you may
                    exercise your 1st amd. right to free speech in
                    a quasi-public forum (privately owned, but operated
                    with the intention that any member of the public
                    can attend) at any time you chose. What it provides
                    is that you may exercise your 1st amd. right at
                    a reasonable time and place within the forum
                    and that such a time and place may be determined
                    by the owners of the forum.
       \_ the CA state supreme court said the following in
          Robins v. Pruneyard Shopping Center, 23 Cal.3d
          899 (1979), aff''d, 447 U.S. 74 (1980):
          The free-speech guarantees of the California Constitution
          "protect speech and petitioning, reasonably exercised, in shopping
          centers even when the centers are privately owned." - danh
                              free speech protections in quasi-public forums.
                              Colorado, Oregon and New Jersey among others
                              protect free speech in quasi-public forums.
                              As far as what the majority of the public
                              want, that is irrelevant since the purpose
                              of the first amd. is to protect the freedoms
                              of the minority from the will of the majority.
                 \_ You are a greedy bastard.
           \_  This doesn't work as well in the States because we're not
               that subtle, we haven't internalized our protests to avoid
               persecution, and we love to sue to make our voices heard.
               In real terms, sure, the mall achieved its goal by expelling
               the t-shirt protesters, but in perceived terms, they've
               lost by having to make the retraction.
        \_ Will all of you with anti-war desires please form a PAC,
           stop being so cheap, and pay for your results like every
           other special interest?  I had to live through the hippie
           movements in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, and I'd really like
           to keep the new millennium hippie free.  Thanks.  -ax
           \_ 1. anti-war not necessarily equal to hippie
                        \_ Would people mind dressing up a little for
                           protests then?  They get international press
                           and everyone outside the US thinks we are slobs. -ax
                           \_ Most people outside the US agree with the
                              \_ And you know this how?  You've polled the
                                 world and the world is qualified to make this
                                 judgement and makes it from a neutral point
                                 of view and not an anti-American or selfish
                                 perspective?  Uh huh.
              2. this whole thread is not about war/anti-war.
                 it's about freedom of expression and consistutional right
                 in semi-public areas
                 \_ Malls are private areas.
                    \_ not true... in most of America (ie, suburbia) there
                       are no general shopping districts, per se, and few
                       public places for people to congregate. Malls
                       spring up to fill this gap, and therefore act as
                       de facto public places.
                                \_ You are wrong, except in California.
                                   If you read the USSC opinion posted
                                   here yesterday the mall was completely
                                   legal in its behavoir - as it should be.
                       \_ You fail to understand why people move to suburbia.
                          They move there precisely to avoid having to deal
                          with the unwashed masses, crazies, and generally
                          anyone who deviates from their beliefs and values.
                          \_ it has nothing to do with anyone else's political
        in a store at the mall.  Sure, I care about freedom of speech and all
        that good stuff, but aren't we missing the more important issue here?
        The guy BUYS a shirt in a store within the mall, which I'm sure the mall
        doesn't mind one bit.  But then as soon as he WEARS it, they get pissy.
        That's probably his best bet at winning a lawsuit (although it probably
        wouldn't be as nice of a case for 1st amendment rights then).
                             beliefs.  thats such an idiotic and silly smear.
                             it is entirely and 100% because it is cleaner,
                             safer, easier to live, more convenient and mostly
                             free from crazies and criminals.  you're not as
                             clever as you feel.  the only reason to live in
                             a crowded city such as SF is you're young and
                                 \_ you think black people should still be
                                    forced to attend different high schools?
                                    besides, the point was to disprove that
                                    protest "doesn't produce anything"
                             like the endless party, you're old and have near
                             zero rent due to draconian rent control laws.  or
                             you're a criminal and there's a higher victim
                             density there.  --happy in the burbs
                             \_ Hahaha thanks for making my point.
                             \_ I weep for you poor soulless bastards.
              \_ Which is why the t-shirtters are getting support both
                 from the Right and the Left:  they may disagree
                 vehemently, but they both want the right to do so loudly
                 and publicly.
                        \_ Protest, by its very nature, doesn't produce
                           anything.  It only prevents things from happening.
                           \_ bzzt. sorry. wrong. cite: most progressive
                              change w/in the last 30 years
                              \_ 'progressive change'?  is that a good thing?
                           If all those protestors would pick up trash, or
                           join the Peace Corp, or actually DO SOMETHING
                           USEFUL other than complain, that would make the
                           world a lot better place than chanting
                           "No War For Oil".  -ax
                            \_ gee, ax, are you joining the Peace Corps?  Or
                               are you for the war and joining the Army? -tom
                                \_ I'm just tired of seeing the same unhappy
                                faces protesting every issue that comes up:
                                compaining doesn't accomplish anything.  How
                                many bodybuilders or athletes do you see
                                running around protesting?  There are do'ers
                                and complainers.  Those who can't do,
                                complain.  -ax
                                 \_ While our elected officials (and one
                                    appointed one) don't seem to realize
                                    this, we are living in a democractic
                                    society, and protest is vital to its
                                    workings.  "Never doubt that a
                                    small group of thoughtful, committed

                                    people can change the world; indeed, it's
                                    the only thing that ever has. [Margaret
                                    Mead]"  As for bodybuilders and athletes,
                                    I don't think being more concerned with
                                    your shoe contract than with world
                                    politics really qualifies as "doing". -tom
                                        \_ Republicans are that small group,
                                        and they are changing the world.
                                        Protest by voting or PAC's, don't
                                        clog the streets with sloppily dressed
                                        people followed by a celebratory riot.
                                          \_ I used to give you more credit
                                             than this.  -tom
                                                \_ I didn't say they were
                                                changing it for the better!
                                                  \_ that's not what I mean.
                                                     voting is important, but
                                                     it's not the primary agent
                                                     of social change.  Look
                                                     at the civil rights
                                                     reforms of the 60's--do
                                                     you think they were
                                                     driven by the election
                                                     of Ronald Reagan as
                                                     governor and Richard
                                                     Nixon as president?  No,
                                                     they were driven by
                                                     protests and the work of
                                                     activists.  As for PAC's,
                                                     government-for-hire is
                                                     the *problem*, not the
                                                     solution.  -tom
        \_ I think the protestors would be more effective saying that they
           have mobilized >51% of the voters and Bush won't get re-elected
           if he goes to war with Iraq.  Protests, as they stand now, are
           a very vocal minority trying to bully more than their fair share
           of representation out of the government.  It's one vote per person,
           not more votes for those who yell the loudest.  Which is why I
           too hate PAC's, although at least lobbiests are well dressed
           and don't turn over newspaper stands and throw rocks.  -ax
           \_ More to the point, the protesters need to protest _and_
              mobilize the vote.  Protest gets the message out there; votes
              are what gets the politicos to listen to your protests.
              \_ not really.  its still about money.
           \_ The funny part about this argument is, ax is complaining about
              how protestors aren't "doing" anything, in a case where the
              protestors actually *did* something.  Do you think the mall
              would have dropped the charges without the protests?  -tom
                \_ Wearing T shirts and putting on bumper stickers isn't doing
                   anything.  How do you get peace?  You crush all your
                   enemies.  Peace is just the lack of war.  Sitting on
                   your ass in a tied died shirt smoking a doob isn't peace.
                   Your peace is provided by the men and women who wear the
                   US flag on their shoulder and actually go out and do
                   something to prevent terrorists from dropping anthrax
                   in your bong.  -ax
                   \_ How about the strategy of, "Don't make enemies?"
                   \_ counterexample: al qaeda would not be attacking the US
                      if we were not an ever-present aggressive military
                      presence in the middle east.  -tom
                        \_ The same people who run Al Qaeda also plan to turn
                           the entire world into a Taliban-ish muslim state.
                           That includes your pampered ass.
                        \_ Al qaeda says that they wouldn't be attacking
                           the US if we weren't in Saudi Arabia, but how
                           can you believe the words of a bunch of
                           \_ What do Gordon Liddy and Pat Robertson have
                              to do with this conversation?
                           \_ what possible *reason* would they have to
                              attack the US if we weren't in the middle
                              east?  Bush has already warned us that a
                              war in Iraq is likely to *increase* terrorist
                              attacks in the US. -tom
                              \_ Duh, read a history book.  We're the infidels
                                 and they believe it is the word of God that
                                 they should convert the entire world, at the
                                 edge of a sword if necessary.  Wake up.  Read
                                 their own websites if you're feeling nerdy.
                                 \_ rhetoric for minions and motivating factors
                                    for the leaders are two entirely separate
                                    things.  the former just needs something to
                                    believe in.  the latter needs something
                                    to show for it (money, power, increased
                                    followings).  You need the history book,
                                    not to mention philosophy, civics, etc.
                                    \_ If you knew anything about how islamic
                                       politics works, then you would be aware
                                       of the fact that most of the leaders
                                       are in it for the simple purpose of
                                       eliminating the unbelievers from the
                                       face of this world.
                                       \_ This is a convenient reading of
                                          history. Who has fought more wars
                                          in the last 100 years, the Arabs
                                          or the Europeans? How about the
                                          last 1000?
                                                \_ OK, so Bernard Lewis is
                                                   wrong and you are right.
        \_ Actually this is fairly normal. The mall got the person off of
           their property with a minimum of costs and doesn't wish to alienate
           anyone, so they drop tresspassing charges. Besides, a trial would
           cost the mall money and bad publicity.
        \_ What makes this interesting for me is that the guy bought the shirt
           in a store at the mall.  Sure, I care about freedom of speech and
           all that good stuff, but aren't we missing the more important issue
           here? The guy BUYS a shirt in a store within the mall, which I'm
           sure the mall doesn't mind one bit.  But then as soon as he WEARS
           it, they get pissy.  That's probably his best bet at winning a
           lawsuit (although it probably wouldn't be as nice of a case for
           1st amendment rights then).
           \_ I think it was a "Make your own T-shirt" booth, not a stock one
              at Anchor Blue.  It's sorta like that Nike guy wanting
              "Sweatshop" on his sneakers.  (I think both are fine, btw).
           \_ Just because you bought something at the mall doesn't mean you
              can use it at the mall. Think cigarettes, music CDs, "massagers,"
              nude photography, etc. It's still private property.
              \_People who keep insisting that "the mall is private property
                so they can do whatever they want" need to learn about the
                legal concept called "public accommodation."
                        \_ Didn't you read the legal opinions presented here
                           yesterday?  The mall was perfectly legal in
                           its behavoir - as it should be.  The only reason
                           they are backing down is because its politically
                           incorrect and they are a business, ie. they
                           want to make money.
                \_ Public accomodation doesn't imply public forum. They can
                   still say no to the tshirt if they felt it was disruptive.
                   \_ Can they say no to blacks if they feel that they too
                      are disruptive?
                      \_ if they wear shirts saying 'kill whitey'
                      \_ hi red herring troll boy!  missed you, you race
                         baiter, you!  on the count of 3, lets all hate all
                         white people in the name of advancing equality!
                         \_ I wasn't bringing up a race issue. I was using
                            race to point out how the flaws in the
                            "they can still say no" argument. But you missed
                            that point entirely.
                            \_ You failed to deliver it.  Your failure is not
                               my fault.  So you're not only a race baiter and
                               a poor debated but you can't take responsibility
                               for your own failings.  Typical race baiter
                      \_ Ah, good example. If the mall can prove that somebody
                         is being disruptive, they can refuse them service or
                         access. If they can't, then it's a question of
                         discrimination, unless they are a private club. So
                         excluding blacks to a publically accessible area (the
                         mall) for no reason is discrimination, UNLESS they
                         can prove that their presence will present a danger
                         to public safety. Very tough to do.
2003/3/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27601 Activity:nil
3/4     Are tireflys street legal in California? -pale white sysadm biker boy
2003/2/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27497 Activity:kinda low
2/22    Can someone give me an idea of how to go about finding value
        estimates on old (ca. 40-80 years) cameras?  I have a crate full
        that needs to find a good home, and I'd like to see what I can get
        for them.  -John
        \_ completed ebay auctions?
        \_ Adolph Gasser sells used camera's. You can check out what
           they sell 'em for. Maybe you can get them to sell yours or
           buy from you.
        \_ http://www.keh.com ??
2003/2/20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27465 Activity:kinda low
2/19    Peace Movements: Then and Now
        \_ wow, fear the commies!  Commies everywhere!  Damn reds!
        \_ Completely unfounded drivel!  Congratulations and welcome to
           the motd!
        \_ that was particularly content free, thanks!
        \_ Oh so THIS is what David Horowitz's fearsome magazine and foundation
           are about. God, I can't tell you how relieved I am.
2003/2/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27335 Activity:nil
2/6     Dems to Miguel Estrada: You're Not Hispanic Enough
2003/2/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign] UID:27332 Activity:high
2/6     http://www.csua.org/u/905 (Yahoo News)
        "Texas, the only U.S. state to have once been an independent country,
        ......" When did that happen???
                \_ I think that Texas was an independent republic from
                   1830 to 1850 or so. It was part of the union by the
                   1860s during the civil war.
        \_ stfw: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1845
        \_ Lies. California was the Bear Flag Republic for a few weeks.
        \_ Canada still is.
2003/1/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:27256 Activity:high
1/30    A cold shower
        http://csua.org/u/8ab (libertarian blather)
        \_ I seem to remember reading this on the wall of top dog.
        \_ Thomas Sowell is Black conservative at Stanford.
2003/1/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:27255 Activity:insanely high
1/31    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/business/31SAVE.html
        What kind of bullshit is Bush trying to pull?  What a shameless
        tactic.  Tax now to make up for the huge deficit, and to hell
        with the future.  Keep borrowing tax money from the future.
        I thought only drug addicts do these kind of things.
        \_ Guess what - Social Security will be broke in 10 years
           regardless.  The return on the money you pay into Social
           Security will be negative - and yet you want to pay more?
           If you're so fucking gungho about it - PAY EXTRA, in fact
           pay my share.  And yes, drug addicts do make comments
           like yours.
           \_ It's not about the level of taxation.  It's about
              borrowing future tax revenues to spend today.  Get a clue.
              Scrap social security for all I care.  This Roth IRA
              thing is a dangerous game to play.  It's good for me
              personally in the short run, but it is bad for the nation.
              The government is sacrificing a future revenue stream for
              a one shot infusion of tax money.
                \_ And we all know what happens to money from the
                   'revenue streams' the government sacrifices right?
                   The money magically disappears and is never seen
                   or heard from again (a dark cave in the middle in Libya).
                   As if the current IRS code does not encourage tax
                   \_ You think the government will cut spending when
                      the tax revenue disappears?  Nah, they will just
                      increase your taxes then.  Remember  "Read my
                      lips. No new taxes"?  Thus you are taxed twice.
              \_ Obviously you've never run a business or any other sort of
                 revenue in/outflow oriented .org.  Borrowing from the future
                 to fund things today the way life works.  Do you think
                 to fund things toady is the way life works.  Do you think
                 businesses are stupid for taking out business loans?  Do you
                 think the government should run a perfectly balanced zero debt
                 budget in good times and bad?  Would you like to see a 20%
                 cut in services if tax revenues drop 20% one year?  Or would
                 your 'answer' be to simply raise taxes 20%?  Take some intro
                 macro economics courses (just one will do) and join us after.
                 Until then, you're merely confused and a bit cute.  Are you
        \_this may be true when running a profitable business, but
          then we get in a discussion of whether the government should
          be run like a corporation.  after you fill my head with tales
          of efficiency and how Bush has packed his cabinet with highly
          successful businessmen, then I whip out how recent news stories
          are filled with the collapse of supposedly highly successful
                 available?  I could use another young naive pliable lover.
                 \_ Yea sure, the government is like an efficient business.
                    Get a grip.  You think they will just cut spending in the
                    future?  Nah, they will just increase your taxes to
                    make up for the lost revenues.  Remember "Read my lips,
                    no new taxes"?  Besides, borrowing too much is bad even
                    for businesses.  Do you really need me to list examples
                    of mightily leveraged companies falling flat on their
                    faces?  This is not just a little borrowing.  It's
                    potentially a huge amount of money.  Your important segment
                    of 80k and above earners are going to dump or redirect a
                    big chunk of their savings or 401k contributions to these
                    schemes.  Do the math.  Also, if you want to stimulate the
                    economy, cut taxes so people spend more or invest more,
                    don't borrow future taxes so government can waste more.
                    No, the government should not run a "perfectly balanced
                    zero debt budget", it should run a budget that's in the
                    black with some margin.  Finally, stop trying to act
        \_ Boy, NY Times bias is showing:
           "The change, which would primarily benefit the affluent who can
           afford to save more of their income"
           (or maybe they need to explain to the readers who can't think for
           \_ So stating the obvious is bias?
              \_ Slanting it to refer to "the affluent" is.  Hey, I can save
                 more than you can, I'm affluent!
                    tough.  You are just a spring chicken.
                    \_ Why does the trickle down myth persist?
                       \_ So rich people don't feel guilty.
                    \_ The 'huge' amount of money is actually very tiny
                       compared to the whole budget.  I've got a grip.  You go
                       do some math.  I have no idea what your noise about
                       "acting tough" and "spring chickens" is about.  Anyway,
                       an intro macro class wouldn't kill you.
2003/1/29 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:27230 Activity:very high
1/28    http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
        Go ahead and keep deleting it. I will keep putting it back.
        \_ the truth shall set you free. I find it more accurate to search
           for the word "israel" in the actual letter of the law.  As in here
           I've gone back a few years.  Israel always get more than Egypt
           despite what garbage alexf spews.   The truth shall set you
                        \_ care to elaborate on this reference? (and while
                           you're at it, give a functional url and sign
                           your name) -alexf
        \_ israel should try giving some of the money to the arabs.
2003/1/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:27187 Activity:high
1/24    Can't get a law passed through Congress?  Just make it an executive
        order!  President allows our tax dollars to fund the construction
        of churches in a fairly clear establishment of official government
        religion.  Go Conservatives!
        \_ What the hell are you talking about?
        \_ The question is still funding. Just saying it's so is great if
           it doesn't cost anything. Congress has to appropriate funds.
        \_ I believe the quote was, "Stroke of the pen, law of the land, cool!"
           It's amazing how cool it is when it's your molestor-in-chief doing
           it, but how much it sucks when the opposition does things you don't
           like and how quickly some of us blather on about the constitution
           when we were perfectly happy to ignore it the previous 8 years as
           a "living changing document".  Welcome to the conservative side
           with your new found belief in strict constitutionalism.
           \_ well, to be fair, the dems never considered the constitution
              to be some sacrosanct document that is not open to deconstruction
              and reinterpretation.  so it's only galling when the republicans
              do it.
              \_ no, it's galling when leftists fall back on a strict
                 interpretation when it is convenient to claim a violation and
                 want to ignore and twist it the rest of the time.
                 \_ So it's okay when you do it but not okay when someone
                    else does. Right-o.
           \_ Who said anything about recent democrats being faultess?  To
              be fair though, where's the special investigator who should
              be looking into our current president's alleged drug use? I'm
              sure that given enough money he could find some kind of dirt
              on W that the conservative media won't be able to easily spin.
           \_ Never been a strict constitutionalist, never will, but I
              want a chance to vote on the X-ianization of the govt.
           \_ The government ALREADY funds private sectarian schools
              with Federal loans.  The USSSC decided this is allowed provided
              the choice is made by an individual.  At at least be honest
              honest about your intentions - the U.S. government is
              historically Christian, a fact easy to verify.
              What you want is secularization.
              Government giving handouts corrupts the exchange and eliminates
              any moral virtue of the exchange.   Read Dinesh D'Souza for
              example, http://www.dineshdsouza.com
2003/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:27176 Activity:high
1/21    I read that tuition/fees/whatever is going back up to pre '98 levels.
        How many of you plan to get jobs and start voting republican?
        \_ why?  we need to raise taxes to cover the deficite.  how can the
           republicans help?
           \_ why dont you get a job and pay your 38% in taxes to help out?
           \_ You don't get it. You should lower taxes when there's a deficit,
              in order to stimulate growth which will lead to more revenue.
              That's what I learned from Reagan.
              \_ Yeah.  Economic theory proposed by Alzheimer's patients
                 and supported by coke-driven stock brokers is exactly
                 what we need.
                 \_ Totally.  Anything proposed in the past by anyone now
                    sick or dead is worthless.  I mean, who needs math
                    thought up by some crazy dead virgin? (Newton)
2003/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:27165 Activity:nil
1/20    Re: Illinois Governor cleared death row.  Here's a shining example of
        the error of what he did:
        Or search for "Fedell Caffey" and "Jacqueline Williams"
        Here's the skinny:
        "Together these two committed three of the most grisly killings
        imaginable. In 1995 they shot and killed a pregnant woman, Debra Evans.
        The Tribune said they then used a pair of scissors to slice her
        'full-term baby from her womb.' But even then they weren't through.
        Caffey and Williams kidnapped Evans' other children, a 10-year-old
        daughter and a 7-year-old son, and hacked both children to death."
        \_ Obviously they were molested as children, have anger management and
           control issues to work through and haven't been given a real chance
           by society.  They need help, not the chair!
           \_ Ah, typical conservative soda drivel.  Oh my god, there might
              have been a couple of cases where someone really did deserve
              to die, so let's kill about 20-30 innocent people along the
              way.  If they were really innocent anyway, they'd be able
              afford good lawyers like OJ did.
              \_ No, more like, let's not throw the baby out with the bath
                 water.  How about the idiot governor doing his fucking job
                 and looking at each case instead of the PR grabbing free-them-
                 all crap?
                 \_ He's no idiot.  This politician is buying votes.
              \_ Oh my god, there might have been a couple of cases where
                 some guilty people didn't really deserve to die, so let's
                 free about 20-30 death-deserving guilty people from
                 execution along the way.  If they really deserve to die
                 anyway, they ... oh wait ... er ... they'll eventually die
                 when they get old.
           \_ Joking aside, my wife is 6 months along with our second child.
              These monsters need the chair. -emarkp
              \_ "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye not be
                  judged"  --The Book of Mormon,  3 Nephi 14
              \_ Or keep them in prison for life, which is probably cheaper
                 because of the legal fees required to put someone to death.
                 \_ put lawyers to death
                 \_ It's made expensive artificially.  That's no reason.
              \_ Yeah, because now people such as them would otherwise think
                 twice before murdering your wife and unborn child.
           \_ I hope your wife and kids are next.
              \_ It Takes A Village
           \_ can't we all just get along?
              \_ It Takes A Village
                 \_ Yermom knows.
2003/1/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:27151 Activity:very high
1/18    Looks like some senators still have a little backbone:
        \_ this is why everyone, regardless of party affiliation should
           vote in the democratic primary so they acan vote against
           \_ Lieberman isn't even mentioned in the article that I could see.
              WTF are you talking about?
              \_ Anti-Semitic troll attempt.
        \_ The original logo for the Information Awareness Office is scary.
           \_ "Concealed in his fortress, the Eye of Mordor sees all."
        \_ Does the Information Awareness Office remind anyone else of the
           "Information Retrieval" office in the movie "Brazil"?
           \_ No.
        \_ Does the Department of Homeland Security remind anyone
           else of the Ministry of Love?
2003/1/14 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27089 Activity:nil
1/13    Vote for the California quarter:
2003/1/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:27035 Activity:insanely high
1/8     Question for "conservative" sodans: If government is supposed to
        be run like a business, which implies fiscal responsibility and
        trying to make some kind of profit, why do republicans always run
        up a deficit when in power and leave it to democrats to clean up
        afterwards?  Wasn't there a budget surplus before G.W. took
        office?  Censor away, conservatives.
        \_ Why do you put conservative in quotes?  I don't put "liberal" in
           quotes.  Doesn't it look weird to see "liberal" in quotes?  I
           think it does.  --conservative before it was cool to be conservative
        \_ You're begging the question, troll boy.  The market was already in
           a freefall and the economy already sliding bigtime down hill before
           Bush took office.
           \_ That's no reason to make it worse, dumbass.
              \_ Make it worse by what, troll boy?  Maybe he should've raised
                 taxes in a recession.  No cookie, kiddo.
        \_ Hadn't the economy started to go down before Clinton left office?
           \_ Hadn't the economy started to go down before Clinton
              entered office? Daddy Bush?
              It's all politics. Conservatives are for personal freedom
              and responsibility, yet they want to legislate abortion and
              gays and whatnot. The preach "hands-off" free-market on one
              hand and then govt legislating morality and flag-jesus worship
              onthe other hand.
                \_ don't forget grants to corporations disguised
                    as programs to keep them more competitive!
              \_ four quadrants:
                        fiscal conservative, social conservative -> Republican
                        fiscal conservative, social liberal, -> Libertarian
                        fiscal liberal, social conservative,
                        fiscal liberal, social conservative -> Reaganite
                        fiscal liberal, social liberal -> Democrat
                        \_ misleading.Both parties are fiscal liberals, they
                           both like to spend. One spends on the rich, other
                           spends on the poor.
                           \_ wanting a tax cut is not spending
                              \_ Building a huge military is spending.
                                 \_ two issues: tax cut and how you
                                    divide spending.  conservatives
                                    want tax cuts.  How they spend
                                    is another matter.
                                    \_ Clinton decreased government spending
                                       as a percentage of GNP. Reagan did not.
                                       As far as I know, no Republican actually
                                       has, in spite of all the hot air:
                 \_ Whoa!  I'm a fiscal conservative and social liberal but
                    I am certainly *not* a libertarian!
                    \_ then what is your affiliation?
                       \_ I see myself as a real conservative which means small
                          government.  Small government means the government
                          basically stays out of people's lives but not in the
                          insane and extremist way the Libertarians want.  I'm
                          not insane.  I just don't want a bloated government
                          stealing my very hard earned money and giving it to
                          people who have done *nothing* to earn it except
                          bitch and cry and whine how oppressed they are and
                          how I *owe* them something for some strange reason.
                          \_ I should have also asked for your definition
                             of a Libertarian
                             \_ I read their website.  I honestly don't recall
                                the details, just that I found a lot of it
                                unrealistic, extremist, and idealistic to the
                                point of fantasy.
        \_ Nobody really wants strict fiscal responsibility during a recession.
           but all of that hot air appeals to voters.
        \_ Tax cuts imply deficits
           \_ No.  In the long term tax cuts cause the economy to grow.  Taxes
              are funds stripped from the economy that are no longer able to
              produce or create real jobs or wealth.  It's a drag on the
              economy not a growth measure (raising taxes).
              \_ So taxes are kept in Fort Knox never to be spent? Go go
                 \_ Taxes don't grow an economy.  Well run businesses do.  The
                    government is a source of waste and corruption, not any
                    sort of productivity, innovation, or new invention.  The
                    only things the government has created in this century are
                    poverty through dependence, and weapons.
                    \_ Well, we are only two years into the century. I'm sure
                       we can go for something much more sinister by 2101. USA!
           \_ Given a budget surplus, would it be better to:
              1. Fix the roads, bridges, and other infrastructure
              2. Invest in education, from pre-school to universities
              3. Give 90% of it to the upper 0.2% of wealthy people
                \_ that is kind of weird.  most of the tax cut will
                   go to really old rich people who derive a significant
                   portion of their income from stock dividends.
                   I don't know ANYONE who gripes about the government
                   taxing their dividend income.  i would be more convinced
                   if the administration press machine would try to show
                   that lots of jobs are created by this elite class
                   of stock dividend collectors.... but they haven't at all.
                   maybe they're busy with iraq and are trusting the GOP
                   majority in all 3 branches of the government will
                   allow them to pass anything they want and dissenting
                   views are beneath their notice.  pretty depressing.
                   \_ Don't you know what dividends even are?  They are the
                      payback to the investors from the company turning a
                      profit.  Without those investors there wouldn't be enough
                      money to run the business and a *shitload* of people
                      would be jobless.  Possibly to the point of the economy
                      simply ceasing to function.  Hey I know, let's punish
                      everyone who creates jobs by investing in the economy.
                      This whole thread is fucking ridiculous and shows the
                   \_ There is an article in the WSJ that argues that
                      instead of cutting divident tax, they should
                      give tax rebates to companies that pay dividends.
                      This will solve the double taxation problem,
                      give more money to corporations to invest, and
                      help the huge number of middle-income people
                      who hold stocks in their 401Ks, IRAs, etc. (all
                      of which essentially still have to pay tax on
                      dividends), rather than to the rich old people.
                      The other thing I hate is the child-tax credit.
                      I don't mind sharing some burden with poorer
                      people who need help caring for their kids, but
                      why should rich people who breed like pigs take
                      my money just because they have lots of kids?
                      amazing and incredible ignorance and sheer blind
                      stupidity of many of you regarding how the world works.
                       \_ Don't you know what personal income is?  They are
                          the payback to people who work.  Without workers,
                          there wouldn't be any business, and no company
                          will survive.  Possibly to the point of the economy
                          ceasing to function.  Hey I know, let's punish
                          everyone who work at jobs and make the economy
                          turn.  Nobody is asking for the elimination of
                          dividends, just whether and how it should be taxed,
                          just like nobody is asking for the elimination
                          of personal income, just how it should be taxed.
                          \_ Oh yeah?  I think income tax is bullshit.  Want
                             to tax something?  Tax people on how much use they
                             get out of the infrastructure.  Road tolls, gas,
                             cigarette, utility and other usage taxes are just
                             fine.  A euroweenie style VAT is fine too.
                             \_ Sure, now that you have understood dividend
                                and personal income, we can proceed to talk
                                about dividend tax and income tax, and whether
                                they are needed.
                                \_ I already understood divs and PI.  I believe
                                   neither are needed and in fact are harmful.
                   \_ isn't it reasonable to say that no tax on dividends
                      encourages "buy-and-hold" behavior?
                        \_ ok that's reasonable.  why doesn't the admin.
                           say this?  all i read in the newspapers
                           is "giant tax cut on dividends.  suck it up
                           \_ GWB said that?  Cool!  What a stud!
                              \_ Clinton is a stud.  Bob Dole is a stud (even
                                 though he needs viagra).  GWB ain't no stud.
                   \_ There is an article in the WSJ that argues that instead
                      of cutting divident tax, they should give tax rebates to
                      companies that pay dividends.  This will solve the double
                      taxation problem, give more money to corporations to
                      invest, and help the huge number of middle-income people
                      who hold stocks in their 401Ks, IRAs, etc. (all of which
                      essentially still have to pay tax on dividends), rather
                      than to the rich old people.  The other thing I hate is
                      the child-tax credit.  I don't mind sharing some burden
                      with poorer people who need help caring for their kids,
                      but why should rich people who breed like pigs take my
                      money just because they have lots of kids?
                      \_ Why should *anyone* get money for having kids?
                         \_ That would be even better.  I can always
                            give money myself to my neighbour who
                            needs help.
                            \_ Maybe your neighbor should've used a condom.
                   \_ If the country is to cut taxes, it should first
                      cut income taxes, next capital gains, next
                      divident taxes, and only finally, inheritance
                      tax.  This is because we should award ability,
                      not rich people with no abilities.  If you
                      keep rewarding rich people with no abilities,
                      you will create classes in the society.
                      \_ Bush.
                         \_ some folks here are actually having a real
                            discussion.  take your crap to slashdot/kero5hin.
                      \_ What's wrong with classes?  Has there *ever* been a
                         society without classes?  Is it even possible?
                         \_ big middle class, class mobility.
                            \_ I believe this is the best that can be done,
                               but you've still got classes.
                      \_ Using your POV you should put inhereitance tax first.
                         \_ Why should there be one at all?  What gives the
                            government the right to interfere in a parent's
                            transfer of family properly to other family?  Why
                            are they taxing death?
                            \_ The same reason why we don't have succession
                               monarchy and aristocracy in this country.
                               "Damnit!  I earned this country fair and
                                square by leading the country to defeat
                                its enemies and ruling it well.  Why can't
                                I pass it to my son?!"
              \_ 4. Pay off the National Debt so we no longer have to pay
                    interest to our creditors.
                 \_ These creditors being exactly who?  Bond holders, also
                    known as the American public for the most part.  The debt
                    is the government reinvesting in the country.
                    \_ Yes, it's good to go into debt to buy a house, but
                       what is the right balance? do we need buy 2,3,4 houses
                       \_ Depends.  If you can afford to buy 50 houses, that's
                          a great long term investment in many locations in
                          this country.  I can't afford 50.  I can almost
                          afford 2 in the bay area.  I'd get a second and rent
                          it out if I thought I could swing it.
        \_ I'm not a conservative, but the usual items to blame are social
           services which are not part of the Constitution(tm). If you go
           full "states' right," feds should only provide for national defense,
           trade relations between states, and maintaining law as strictly
           described by the Bill of Rights (and maybe some of the amendments).
           All social services should be done by the states themselves or
           privately (church, foundations, etc.). The deficit is because
           federal social services exist.
           \_ You sure sound like a conservative.  It's ok to be a closet
              conservative as long as you keep making conservative arguments.
           \_ Even with all of these federal services, there was a surplus
              when G.W. took office.  It was clear the economy was going
              downhill, yet he gave that surplus away to the extremely
              wealthy and put us into deficit spending this country hasn't
              seen since Reagon was in charge.  At least Reagan had a
              real reason (a strong Soviet Union) to forget about long-term
              \_ Exactly what surplus did GWB give to the wealthy?  There has
                 been pretty much nothing returned to anyone yet at any level.
                 To say that there's been some big giveaway is either pure
                 ignorance or a flat out malicious lie.  Oh yeah, there was
                 that big huge gigantic $300 bucks which was enough to totally
                 crush the budget.  Whatever.
                 \_ Also, the tax relief check is the same amount for most
                    taxpayers having between low 5-figure and many-figure
                    income.  Hence, in terms of percentage of income, the
                    low-income taxpayers already benefited more than the
                    high-income taxpayers even though the tax rates for
                    low-income taxpayers were lower than those for high-income
                 \_ Dropping the top tax rate for the most wealthy.
                    \_ Child, it hasn't happened yet.  When you have clue, you
                       may return to the conversation.  Please stop drinking
                       your own poison.  No one has had their tax rate dropped.
                       I know because I'm paying that top rate and it hasn't
                       changed a bit.  I'll let you know when it has and it
                       won't be soon enough for me.
                       \_ Yes it has. You have been paying based on the (lower)
                          2002 tax rate all year, you just didn't notice it.
           \_ Do farm and business subsidies count as federal social services?
              \_ Not in the same sense, but to a degree, yes.  On the other
                 hand, there is an important need for the country to be able
                 to produce enough food and certain goods self sufficiently.
                 We definitely do not want to be dependent on some foreign
                 power for our food or other basic needs.  I consider some of
                 these subsidies to be necessary for the country's long term
                 safety, stability, and survival.  Others are pure pork and
                 should be completely ended.
                 \_ A bogus argument for subsidies. The US massively
                    overproduces "staple" farm goods, thus dropping prices,
                    and therefore subsidies. This argument assumes that
                    without subsidies there would be no farming. Wrong.
                    \_ So if there were no subsidies you think they'd just
                       grow less food and charge more and it would all be ok?
                       And who gets hurt the most by this?  The poor?  Yup.
                       I'm deeply conservative and I find this very *not* ok.
                       \_ The only reason the poor will get hurt is because
                          this distorted agricultural economy has been
                          around too long.  It is like people getting
                          addicted to drugs.   I say gradual reduction of
                          subsities.  Short-term pain, long-term gain.
                    \_ And the free-market will take care of this anyways.
                       No more republican subsidies! If anything, we need
                       to get more oil, a basic need, that's more
                       important to long-term national economic
                       health than cheese or eggs!
                       \_ Troll.  There are just as many democrat farm states
                          as republican.  That POS who switched over in the
                          Senate only did so because the dems promised him his
                          state would still get farm subsidies/pork and he'd
                          keep his position on a pork committee.  As far as oil
                          goes, we have plenty.  It's in Alaska.  It's off the
                          coast of California and Florida and probably other
                          places.  Drill for it.  It's there.
2003/1/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:27021 Activity:high
1/07    Coming to a State Near You: California's Illegal
        Immigration Economic Nigthmare
        \_ Thar she blows! Round up the harpoons! We're after a
           freeper carcass!
        \_ Don't waste your time with that trash site. They just
           censor anything they disagree with.
2003/1/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:27011 Activity:high 61%like:27009
01/06   Important legal ruling for all you males:
        http://csua.org/u/779   -from http://sfgate.com -urld
        Um, just give me a few more minutes to finish up...
        \_ What about when she says: "Don't...Stop...Don't...Stop..."?
        \_"the high court's majority did not indicate how much time a man has
           to withdraw once a woman says stop."
           \_ there should be a yellow-light first. Then you're allowed in
              the intersection. When it's yellow, you have a chance to
              speed up.  Once it turns red, you get a ticket.
           \_ Brings new meaning to the term "California Stop".
        \_ And this is relevant to most sodans how?  You have to talk to girls
           before you get to this point.
           \_ c'mon, most of us here are around 30 now. we've talked to girls,
           it's just not that interesting.
           \_ perhaps you've been talking to the wrong girls.
2003/1/7 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:27009 Activity:nil 61%like:27011
01/06   Important legal ruling for all you males:
        Um, just give me a few more minutes to finish up...
        \_"the high court's majority did not indicate how much time a man has
           to withdraw once a woman says stop."
           \_ there should be a yellow-light first. Then you're allowed in
              the intersection. When it's yellow, you have a chance to
              speed up.  Once it turns red, you get a ticket.
           \_ Brings new meaning to the term "California Stop".
2003/1/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:26958 Activity:very high
1/01    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/01/politics/01DEMS.html
        This entire thing truly amazes me.  The Dems have TV, Hollywood, cable,
        prime time news, and all but 2 of the major newspapers.  Everything
        *except* radio and Fox news.  If they honestly and truly believe their
        problem is lack of access to get their message out and if only they
        had their own Rush then they'd get more votes then they're doomed.
        They can't possibly truly believe what this article says they do.
        Democrats, please tell me, is this article bullshit or do Democrats
        *really* believe this stuff?  --baffled conservative
        [why do you keep deleting this?  it's a real link from a real news
         source with a real question. and yes i'm going to keep restoring it.]
        \_ yes, some people are stupid enough to believe that the media
           is a giant conservative conspiracy, just as some people
           (like you) are stupid enough to believe it's a giant liberal
        \_ The major media channels are owned by GE, MS, Viacom and Vivendi.
           All tilt heavily Republican. Your notion that the Dems control
           the media just shows how self-deluded you really are.
                \_ We were always at war with Oceana.
                \_ Like I said its all about the vast right wing
                   consipracy out to get me and my husband - Hillary
        \_ Because conservatives tend to overstate the "liberal bias" of
           the media. Having a few liberal views makes one an Evil Liberal,
           while having a few conservative views do not make one an Evil
           Conservative. The ranking of All Of Media Is Liberal stems from
           the conservatives' marketing their brand of thinking as True
           Conservatism(tm). There is no other brand. To disagree is to
           not be a TC and thus must be liberal. The thing is that most TCs
           do have some liberal POVs but don't express it.
           \_ There's no disputing a clear bias on issues like gun control
              and abortion rights, where the positions of liberal and cons
              are fairly clear.  Overall the bias may be minor, but on some
              it is extreme.
              \_ Which makes all of their POVs automatically Liberal. It's
                 the Cons's self-pitying victimization that irritates me.
2002/12/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:26938 Activity:high 71%like:26931
12/28   The failure of the German welfare cradle-to-grave system:
        \_ Wow.  Tax revenues are down and deficits are up, so the government
           raises taxes?!  Thank God that would never happen here!  Get a life,
           pal.  A majority of states right here in the US are in the same
           economic boat.  How many of them have a "cradle-to-grave" welfare
           system?  Get a life.
           \_ You're not making any sense.  If you could calm down for the 30
              seconds it might take to write a reply maybe we could discuss it.
              In the mean time, take a look and see the long term fate of an
              industrialized western nation with even greater taxes than here:
              9% unemployment and zero growth to our lower taxes, lower
              enumployment rate and above-zero growth.
              \_ Austria +2.5%, Britain +3.4% , Spain +3.2% quit making shit
                 \_ None of which have the same level of socialist support or
                    taxes Germany has.  Thanks for staying on point.
              \_ Aren't you late for some cyrillic menorah reading or somesuch?
                 \_ No idea who or what you're talking about.
              \_ you may or may not be right, but the existence of a recession
                 doesn't mean that's the "long term fate" of such a system.
                 \_ Been going on for *9* years.  Read the article, then come
                    come back and let us know what you think.  "duh"
              \_ I like it when the poor suffer and die. It's much better that
                 way. I mean, God must want it to happen, right?
                 \_ Because once the economy collapses from over taxation, all
                    those poor citizens will be equally "wealthy" and therefore
                    happy, right?
                 \_ You can't legislate compassion.
              \_ How much stuff is "enough"? I don't think growth and
                 consumption are always good. Look how overfed Americans
                 are. We are dying from our overconsumption.
                 \_ infidel defiler!!!  you are now required to read
                    the Fountainhead and buy an SUV or suffer the
                 \_ Americans are not overfed.  Those who are fat are so
                    because of the kinds of foods they eat, not the amount.
                    And you apparently haven't been to Germany.  West Germany
                    has plenty of fatties rolling about.  Anyway, I find it
                    interesting that the only people who say "how much stuff
                    is enough" are those who have nothing and want to take from
                    those who have.  Go earn it.  It isn't your place to decide
                    how much another human being is allowed to earn.  You also
                    confuse 'economic growth' with 'pants size growth'.  Please
                    come back after getting a passing grade in Econ 1 where
                    they'll explain how zero economic growth with a growing
                    population means the average standard of living will drop.
                    \_ The German population is not growing. Go back to Econ 1
                       yourself. I have everything I want and no desire to
                       take from others. It is you greedheads that are never
                       satisfied. If your selfishness and stupidity were not
                       destoying the planet, I would be happy to let you
                       wallow in all the crap you desire.
                       \_ Go Captain Planet go!  Save that rock!  Nader in
2002/12/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26904 Activity:high
12/24   Finally, an attempt at necessary theatre.  Why can't the SF theatre
        community do stuff like this:
        \_ Too creative and no one in the US has the gumption to do it.
           \_ Um, maybe you can clarify for me because I'm not quite clear
              on how this is either creative or ballsy.
              \_ If you tried something like this in the US, your theatre
                 would get firebobmed.
                 would get firebombed.
                 \_ oh please, no one would give a shit, really.  get over
                    your "i hate america" thing and join reality.  americans
                    are more than used to the 'arts community' being stupid
                    and tasteless in an effort to get noticed.
                    \_ why do you put arts community in quotes?  Do you
                       not believe that it actually involves arts?  Or do
                       you not think it's an actual community?
                       \_ I always put it in quotes whenever anyone refers to
                          the "xyz community".  It implies unity and a measure
                          of conformity that doesn't exist.
                       \_ You sound like a wise man.  Take heed of God's wisdom:
                          "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but
                          the lips of the wise shall preserve them."
                          Proverbs 14:3
                    \_ You've never left the state, have you?  What did you
                       do come straight from Temple in Moscow to here?  Go
                       back to russia, jew.
                       \_ You sound like a wise man.  Take heed of God's
                          wisdom:  "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of
                          pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve
                          them."  Proverbs 14:3
                          \_ I love the bible quotes.  You just pirate the
                             bible software thing off usenet?
        \_ Because the SF theater community isn't completely f*cked up.
2002/12/20 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26868 Activity:high
12/19   America is being invaded
        '...15 percent of school children in California are illegal
        immigrants...More than 14 percent of the inmates in California's
        prisons are illegal aliens'
        Now we know California has a 35$ billion budget deficit -
        can the libs and RINOs put 2 and 2 together?
        \_ Damn those politicans who use pro-illegal-immigrant policies to buy
           votes.  Damn those relatives of the illegal immigrants who vote for
        \_ Damn those politicans who use pro-illegal-immigration policies to
           buy votes.  Damn those relatives of the illegal immigrants who vote
           for them.  Damn those who label anti-illegal-immigration ones as
           "anti-immigration" in order to confuse people.
        \_ hey genius, where did you get your logic degree? even the hair in
           my asshole is smart enough to not get fooled by your argument.
           is my ass hair smarter than you? -ali
           \_ Yeah whatever.  What a worthless reply.  If you're so damned
              smart then spell it out instead of the ad hominen garbage.  -!OP
2002/12/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26849 Activity:very high
12/18   I'm hurt.  A liberal (myself) criticizes Tom Daschle and gets removed.
        You people have no shame. --scotsman
        \_ Just like yermom
        \_ Daschle is a conservative lapdog.
           \_ ??? Joking, right?
        \_ What were you talking about? What did he do now? Please enlighten.
        \_ you get deleted because you're dull, and conservatives get killed
           because they're wrong.  i know, because i was the one who deleted
           you, and i often censor the conservatives.
           \_ conservatives are wrong?  Then why not let their posts stay and
              demonstrate their own wrongness?  Do you burn books, too?
              \_ The conservatives are backed by these huge capitalist
                 propaganda machines that drown out all efforts to
                 portray the TRUTH ACCCURATELY.  People are oppressed in
                 the Republican's fascist attempt to conquer Iraq, which
                 is just a veiled (thinly at that) attempt for the
                 multinational corporations to control the oil supply
                 in the Middle East.  This is the time for POSITIVE
                 DIRECT ACTION.
              \_ wouldn't you burn child pornography?
           \_ if you censor anyone ever, you're a fucking asshole, regardless
              of politics.  people like you make the world a worse place
              to live.  fuck you.
              \_ No, I mean I *don't* censor anyone.  I just "accidentally"
                 overwrite your changes because I don't use motdedit.  nudge
                 nudge wink wink.
                 \_ You're an idiot.
           \_ As I'm not a conservative, I'm not sure to what you are
              referring.  Daschle has no political instinct whatsoever,
              and the latest illustration (Lott's dillema and Daschle's
              reaction) is pulling this into tighter focus. --scotsman
              \_ Your party chose it's own leaders.  Don't like em?  Vote em
                 out.  I can't wait to see Lott take a huge fall and get the
                 hell out of party leadership or better yet my entire party.
                  \_ Yes Lott is a RINO who botched the Clinton impeachment
                     and the Jeffrey switch.  He has no political convictions.
                     He should step down as speaker.
                        \_ He should be replaced with a conservative.
                           Hopefully voters of Missisippi feel the same way.
                 \_ when are you going to vote lott out of office?  it's
                    your fucking party.
                    \_ Not being from his state nor having anyone from my party
                       in the senate from this state, I'm not in a position to
                       do as much about it as you are being a leftist in a
                       leftist state with your own leadership problems.  I'll
                       bet you voted for Clinton twice.
2002/12/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26792 Activity:high
12/10   How does one explain proofs by induction to an idiot?
        \_ Lead him through it step by step.  He should be able to arrive
           at the conclusion.  -John
           \- sing "the sun will come out tomorrow, tomorrow, you can
                   bet your bottom dollar" --psb
           \_ No that's how you explain it to an intelligent person/adolescent
              who has never been taught induction. I don't think induction is
              for idiots.
                \_ It was supposed to be a joke.  -John
        \_ Here, hold this wire...
        \_ A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step
        \_ ask them to use an indirect proof to prove that induction doesn't
           work.  walk them through a simple proof, like how summing increasing
           odd numbers generates squares.
           \_ http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/56866.html
        \_ On the same note, does anyone have a good online reference to
           explain induction to a 16 year old brother?
           \_ see the above mathforum link.
           \_ is he an idiot?
           \_ Schools haven't taught this to 11th graders?
              \_ Go back to russia, jew.
                 \_ It was taught in the 10th year in Britain.
                 \_ I was taught induction in 8th grade (Cupertino CA)
                    I'm poor at geography and history but I'm pretty
                    sure that Cupertino is not has never been a part
                    of russia (or the USSR).
                    sure that Cupertino has never been a part of
                    russia (or the USSR).
                    \_ This one is a master of double-think.
                        \_ RAdm Poindexter is watching you. Don't
                           be surprised if the Ministry of Truth
                           pays you a visit.
2002/12/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/Car] UID:26788 Activity:high
12/11   Is there any discount for FasTrak users on bridges?  Someone told me
        there is, but when I look at http://www.dot.ca.gov/fastrak there isn't
        any.  Thanks.
        \_ $4 instead of $5 on the Golden Gate: http://toll.goldengate.org
           \_ This should end soon. Budget problems.
           \_ Golden Gate is FIVE dollars?? How long has this been the
              case???                   - moved out of the Bay Area
                \_ A year or two.
                   \_ No, it started September 2002. --aaron
        \_ BB, SM, and DB bridges used to be 1.85 but now 2.00
        \_ fastrack is not about discounts.  its about making traffic move
           faster.  it doesn't but that's the idea.  they don't need to
           discount a service (using bridge) that you're goint to use anyway.
           \_ what about all the unemployed tooltakers?
                \_ I've heard that those people supplement their income
                   with the tolls.
                \_ what about them?  is there a real question here?  are you
                   in favor of eliminating all labor saving devices to increase
                   employment for the unskilled?
                   \_ yes.
                        \_ Cool, as you're obviously unemployed and desperate
                           for work, post your name.  I have some ditches that
                           need digging.  -John
                           \_ You think the poster is qualified?
                              \_ Let's see: strong back, good work ethic--
                                 nope, no motd'rs fit the bill.
2002/12/10 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26776 Activity:nil
12/8    NY Times: http://csua.org/u/684
        On how California is deeply fucked.  There's no one left to tax and
        they won't cut social programs.
2002/12/10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:26773 Activity:nil
12/9    Why is Clarence Thomas hated?
        \_ Would you want a pubic hair in your coke?
           \_ i don't know.  are you hot?
2002/12/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26751 Activity:nil
12/8    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0312261551/reviews/002-8781719-2026452#03122615513200
        Read the guy's letter about the sponge.
2002/12/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:26728 Activity:high
12/5    Any recommendations for a good computer store in Berkeley, or nearby?
        I'm building a desktop linux box. want it quiet and quality parts.
        \_ my basement - danh
        \_ Fry's. And obL1NSUX!
           \_ In Berkeley?
              \_ Said nearby, fremont is nearby.
        \_ well there is a best buy in e-ville
        \_ There are none in Berkeley city limits.  I suggest visiting large
           stores like Fry's and Compusa to look at pretty boxes and then buy
           over the net to dodge CA sales tax and get lower prices overall.
           \_ mmmm shipping costs
              \_ I've done the math.  For expensive parts the sales tax is
                 often higher than shipping *and* you get a lower base price.
                 And oh, btw, fuck CA's brutal and crushing sales tax.
                 \_ then move back to russia, jewboy!
                 \_ i buy cases locally, because they have a bad weight/cost
                    ratio.  everything else i tend to do mail order, except
                    for the occasional fry's special.  non-special prices
                    at fry's are awful.
                    \_ Hell, boy, you shoulda asked! We don't pay no stinkin'
                       case shipping charges! http://www.electroseller.com
                       \_ man, them be pricey cases.  last case i bought
                          was for $10 at a surplus place off brokaw in sjc.
2002/12/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26696 Activity:kinda low
12/2    Anyone used a cron replacement (like CA AutoSys) that they're
        happy with? I'm looking for something which controls more than
        one machine. Mail me. -- Marco
        \_ client/server cron?  Given all of 3 seconds to think about this it
           sounds like a security problem and what's wrong with rsyncing the
           crontabs out anyway if you're going into that?
        \_ Use cfengine as a replacement for cron.
2002/11/24 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26616 Activity:moderate
11/23   A San Francisco liberal - how racist of you to delete
        an article by Thomas Sowell
2002/11/22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Computer/SW/Security] UID:26597 Activity:nil
11/20 How can I verify Soda's certificate?
       \_ No. You can't add self signed certs to your cert store.
          \_ yes, you can... the easiest way is if the machine is using
             the same cert for https... you can import it simply using
             IE... otherwise you need to manuall add import it, but it
             can be done.
             \_ Does the CSUA have a https site?  Still haven't found
                the self-signed cert ... -OP
             \_ Not all versions of OE/IE support this.
          \_ Really? That's dumb. Another reason not to use Lookout(tm)
             \_ A self signed cert has no meaning in the PKI
                model, since all it says that you vouch that
                you are who you claim you are. If you really
                want to implement the cert mgmt correctedly
                there is no reason to allow such certs into
                the cert store.
                \_ Point taken.  Where can I view this cert, and how was it
                   generated, for technical curiosity's sake?  And does the
                   CSUA have a cert for https?  -OP
                       \_ http://www.openssl.org has all the goodies
                \_ By the way, is self-signed certificate different from
                   a certificate that was signed by an untrusted CA (say
                   you have setup a certificate authority within your company
                   for signing certificates)
                       \_ self-signed: signed by untrusted (your own) CA
       \_ I like the original minty green certs best, but some of the more
          orange flavored ones that came later were ok too.
          \_ Before being bought out by RSA, Xcert minted their own brand for
             a promo ... labeled obviously as: "XCerts"! -OP
             \_ Sweet!
         \_ Another approach if you really want secure POP is to set up
            SSH forwarding on a local port to csua:110, then just set up
            Outlook to retrieve email across the SSH (i.e., localhost: 110).
2002/11/17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26570 Activity:nil
11/16   Somalis accuse Lewiston mayor of racism, bigotry
        \_ So tell me, was this posted by an anti-freeper?
2002/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26435 Activity:nil 72%like:26417
11/5    damnit, it's november 5.  it is your civic duty to
        vote: .
        troll the motd about it:
        get really agitated about other peoples trolls and
        rant for half a screen about it:
        \_ Actually I disagree with #1.  It is not your civic duty to vote.
           It is your civic duty to cast your ballot after educating yourself
           on the issues and candidates and making an informed decision.  If
           you're just going to blindly vote for some party or blindly vote
           on some proposition you haven't read or don't understand then
           please do us all and yourself a favor and stay home.
        \_ What is the Freeper list of endorsements? I want to vote that.
           \_ Find the Chronicle's list online and vote the opposite.
2002/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26426 Activity:high
11/5    bush has the senate (and the house).
        \_ We're goin' to WAR, baby!
           \_ and about time!
              \_ today Iraq, tommorrow California
                 \_ I don't think Bush has enough connection to California to
                    come save us.
                    \_ Repubs own DC.  Dems own California.  California has
                       the fifth largest economy on the planet.  Welcome to
                       the revolution, baby.
2002/11/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:26425 Activity:high
11/5    Wow, if only the Green party had done the right thing, the Democrats
        might've won and the world would be a better place....
        \_ Er.  no.  if only the democrats had actually talked about the
           shit that the current administration has pulled, and continues
           to pull, in the corporate and foreign policy circles.  but the
           democrats have their heads too deep in just as many people's
           pockets to do that, so... welcome to hell.  --scotsman
           \_ So what you're really saying is the Democrats don't have a real
              platform other than "the Republicans are eeeeevil so vote for
              us!"?  Is that what you're saying?  Maybe the Senate will finally
              do it's job and pass some bills and confirm some judges instead
              of playing politics with important issues.
           \_ I am so waiting for some independent billionare to put a
              bounty out for scandalous material to sink all of these bastards.
        \_ Oh the horror - tax cuts, school vouchers, privatizing
           Social Security.  I've heard these are all signs of the Armageddon,
           can anyone confirm this?
           \_ I'm pretty sure Nostradamus said something about this.
              \_ 47th quatrain.  Something about Caesar rendering under to
                 the people that which is theirs leading to the earth opening
                 and fire and brimstone rising to cloud the sun.
           \_ No, but it's a step in the right direction for a Cyberpunk
2002/11/5 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26417 Activity:high 72%like:26435
11/5    damnit, it's november 5.  it is your civic duty to
        1) vote
        2) troll the motd about it.
        3) get really agitated about other peoples trolls and
           rant for half a screen about it.
        \_ Actually I disagree with #1.  it is not your  civic duty to vote.
           It is your civic duty to cast your ballot after educating yourself
           on the issues and candidates and making an informed decision.  If
           you're just going to blindly vote for some party or blindly vote
           on some proposition you haven't read or don't understand then
           please do us all and yourself a favor and stay home.
        \_ What is the Freeper list of endorsements? I want to vote that.
           \_ Find the Chronicle's list online and vote the opposite.
2002/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26402 Activity:very high 80%like:26397
11/4    http://www.fairvote.org
        End the 2 party system.
        \_ Yes it's a much better system. Now if I could see something
           indicating how to do it. Changes to the Constitution are
           ...difficult. San Francisco enacting the instant runoff system
           was a hopeful thing to see, though.
        \_ Fuck that noise.  The two party system has given us a stable and
           functional government for 200+ years.  What?  You want something
           like what Italy has?  Get stuffed.
           \_ They done brain-washed you real good.
              \_ Ad hominen is a waste of bits.  Go to Italy.  The last thing
                 this country needs is extremists in office that PR allows
                 to happen.  Government and voting is about getting a
                 functional stable government, not about letting every little
                 2 bit crack pot group that can garner 3% of the vote a say in
                 governing the 97% of the normal people.
                 \_ The cutoff wouldn't have to be 3%, and if it was, that
                    wouldn't affect you because 3% of congress can't force
                    the rest to do anything.
                    \_ You mean like how if some crackpot group had only 3
                       Senators right now that would be ok with you?  Nutty.
           \_ I want something like The Netherland, Belgium or Germany has.
              \_ I don't know about the first two but German government is in
                 the shitter.
        \_ Strangely enough, most reasonably stable democracies I can think
           of tend towards a two party system, both of which tend to gravitate
           very close towards each other, except in times of economic crisis
           (take Turkey), at which point they get replaced by...another two
           parties.  France, Germany, the UK, Russia, Italy, Spain, Israel...
           there's usually a rightist and a leftist party, with some smaller
           ones sniping from the sidelines.  The only difference being that
           the countries with parliamentary as opposed to three-branch systems
           of government tend to see coalitions with a whole bunch of smaller
           parties... -John
           \_ You are right, and the two parties "gravitate" as close together
              as possible.  Just like gas stations. -crebbs
           \_ Does parliamentary necessarily equal proportional representation
              by party?  i.e. by "parliamentary systems" do you mean those
              Where if a party gets 10% of the vote it gets 10% of the reps?
              And is that a common understanding of "parliamentary" versus
              US-style democracy??
              \_ no.
              \_ No.  Parliamentary in this case meaning a system lacking
                 separation between legislative and executive branch (i.e.
                 the prime minister is chosen by the legislative, with no
                 or only a weak president to balance it out--Germany, the UK,
                 and Israel are examples.  As for proportional representation,
                 I think most major democracies require at that at least an
                 initial hurdle in terms of vote percentage be cleared for
                 a person to obtain a seat.  Whether this is done on a per
                 candidate or per party basis differs.  -John
           \_ That's fine that there are two major parties, but that's a lot
              different than ONLY two parties. This country gets lowest-common
              denominator politics, whereas in for example Germany small parties
              like the Greens can and do get representatives in the gov't.
              Essentially there's 0.01% chance of another party getting any
              power, and this directly lends itself to corruption and
              special interest politics.
              \_ Many people see it as a good thing that an extremist minority
                 party like the Greens don't have any power in this country.
                 If you and enough others like the Greens so much they'll get
                 some power.  But they won't because they don't represent
                 enough nutcases to allow them to ruin anything for the rest
                 of the country.  I laughed my ass off when the German Green
                 party got into power.  It was the end of Germany's chances at
                    \_ Shhh! He hadn't figured that part out yet!
                 recovering and becoming a great nation anytime soon.
                 \_ It's not about extremist minorities you buffoon. Look at
                    California; with PR you would see more conservative
                    \_ I don't want to see more of any representation.  I want
                       to see a functional and stable government which is still
                       responsible to the people.  PR fails the first and part
                       of the second.  Idiotic response from clueless third
                       party purged from motd.
        \_ This is cool. Don't mathematicians study voting systems?
           Can anyone recommend a mathematics text on voting?
           \_ http://www.ctl.ua.edu/math103
           \_ Yeah, yeah, we all read slashdot.  Troll harder.
2002/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:26399 Activity:nil
11/3    A few good reasons for SFers to vote yes on prop N:
        http://csua.org/u/4c6 --from http://sfgate.com -urld
2002/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26397 Activity:high 80%like:26402
11/4    http://www.giantleap.org/envision/pr4.htm
        End the 2 party system.
        \_ Yes it's a much better system. Now if I could see something
           indicating how to do it. Changes to the Constitution are
           ...difficult. San Francisco enacting the instant runoff system
           was a hopeful thing to see, though.
        \_ Fuck that noise.  The two party system has given us a stable and
           functional government for 200+ years.  What?  You want something
           like what Italy has?  Get stuffed.
           \_ They done brain-washed you real good.
        \_ Strangely enough, most reasonably stable democracies I can think
           of tend towards a two party system, both of which tend to gravitate
           very close towards each other, except in times of economic crisis
           (take Turkey), at which point they get replaced by...another two
           parties.  France, Germany, the UK, Russia, Italy, Spain, Israel...
           there's usually a rightist and a leftist party, wich some smaller
           ones sniping from the sidelines.  The only difference being that
           the countries with parliamentary as opposed to three-branch systems
           of government tend to see coalitions with a whole bunch of smaller
           parties... -John
           \_ You are right, and the two parties "gravitate" as close together
              as possible.  Just like gas stations. -crebbs
           \_ Does parliamentary necessarily equal proportional representation
              by party?  i.e. by "parliamentary systems" do you mean those
              Where if a party gets 10% of the vote it gets 10% of the reps?
              And is that a common understanding of "parliamentary" versus
              US-style democracy??
2002/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26395 Activity:insanely high
11/3    Even though in California my vote is meaningless I still plan to vote:
        Yes: .
        No : .
        Already have : .
        \_ Practically useless, yes. Meaningless, no.
        \_ you can directly affect the quality of your life by
           voting for or against the measures on your local ballot,
           even in California. - danh
           \_ Not really.  You can believe that if you want but you're just
              one tiny grain on a huge beach.  No one will miss you.
              \_ Political BS aside, Bush's margin of victory came down
                 to a few hundred Florida voters.  And more locally, the
                 90 Berkeley mayoral race came down to 12 votes short of
                 50% in the main, and less than a hundred in the runoff.
                 Sometimes one vote does matter.
                 \_ yeah, and it's pretty predictable where that can
                    happen.  both parties knew florida was going
                    to be close, as did the press and anyone who
                    followed politics.  i live in a state where neither
                    party even bothered to campaign, and, as predicted,
                    one party beat the other by tens of percentage points.
                    my vote in that election did not count for shit,
                    thanks to the electoral college system.
              \_ Please, don't vote, be my guest. The more morons like you
                 stay out, the more my opinions will matter.
                 \_ And you figure your opinion counts how?  You're a genius!
                    That's the very topic we're trying to discuss until you
                    came along and simply decided it because you're so smart!
        \_ How is it meaningless?
           \_ Because this is such a heavily Democrat state there's no point
              in voting for anything.  All the Democrats will win so why
                    is reelected. COmpanies are fleeing this state in untold #'s
              \_ Meaningless depends on party affiliation.  I'm a democrat.
                 \_ Damn commie. In ten years CA will be in the dumps if Davis
                    is reelected. COmpanies are fleeing this state in untold
                 \_ So am I.  So what?  Your vote is still meaningless.  As if
                    your going makes a damned bit of difference.  Your party
                    has nothing to do with it.  I guess if you're Green then
                    it could matter but everyone else is wasting their time.
                    \_ But imagine if more and more democrats started to
                       believe that, eventually they'd start losing.
                       \_ Yeah if like 85% of them did that, maybe.  I can't
                          imagine it.  It's too silly.
        \_ that is why I don't particularly believed in democracy.
           Having said that, I would have to say in the case of United States
           democracy has worked pretty well.   And if you accept the
           "democracy" which the founding fathers has envisioned, you
           probably would have less complaint.  It was not meant for
           people of common at begin with, so, embrace it.
           \_ How to govern country? Mass executions and state security?
              \_ This isn't China, thanks.
                 \_ I was making fun of the awful nonsensical English
                    of the post I was responding to.
                    \_ how good is your Chinese?
                       \_ Doesn't matter.  This is an American hosted computer
                          at an American University and you're writing in what
                          is supposed to be English.  How well the poster knows
                          or writes Chinese is about as meaningful as how long
                          you've had herpes (sorry about that, I swear I didn't
                          know I was shedding virus at the time).
                          \_ Insulting someone who has a better command of
                             two languages than you do, for not having a good
                             enough command of the language, is rather
                             \_ Get over it, nobody gives a shit how well
                                he speaks chinese.
                                \_ Oh really? See above...
                                   \_ *laugh*  Yes, a motd poll.  That's a real
                                      good way to measure anything here.  I'm
                                      *sure* the motd poll is a pure gold
                                      standard quality measurement just like
                                      voting in Broward, FL.  How fucking funny
                                      you'd fall back on a motd poll for
                                      'proof' of anything.
                                      \_ wan ba dan, gai si.
                                      \_ Get a life.
2002/11/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26394 Activity:moderate
11/3    the town i live in votes for mayor every two years.  this week
        we will vote on a measure to change the term length to four years.
        proponents say this will allow the mayor to focus on more long term
        issues than the next election, and opponents say that longer terms
        just mean more corruption.  both cite other cities that have
        very corrupt city government with either a strong mayor or
        weak mayor model.  what does the motd think?  right now, our
        city government works better than most(obviously i don't live
        in berkeley).
        \_ If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I'd think that a four year
           model would work better. If the mayor really sucks, you could
           always try and force a resignation or early elections.
           \_ you can never get rid of someone before their term.  dont be
              \_ I am not a crook.
                 \_ Whatever, as if your mayor is going to send operatives
                    into the political opposition's hotel room.  Anyway, this
                    sort of thing happens all the time now and no one gives a
                    shit anymore.  See Harkin.
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:26250 Activity:nil
10/18   http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/4310500.htm
        The problem isn't ``foreigners taking our jobs,'' it's ``American
        companies can get IT work done more cheaply overseas.''
        \_ Why go overseas when you can pick up H1Bs here who are afraid of
           packing themselves and their families up and moving back to the
           home country? It's a little more pricey, but you have greater
           control over the product, the employee, and avoid middleman markup?
        \_ All work can be done more cheaply overseas. This includes medical
           care, manufacturing, and so on. Cost-of-living is cheaper there and
           so are wages. The problem is what happens when everyone has been
           outsourced. Who will keep the US economy afloat then? --dim
           \_ I'm curious about how you would outsource medical care.  Fly
              people to Taiwan?  -tom
              \_ Lots of people go to Mexico for medical care. The point
                 being that doctors in Mexico make less than doctors here,
                 even though it's a skilled and valuable profession. Everything
                 costs less to do somewhere else. --dim
              \_ It's not hard for Kaiser-style medical care.  You call Kaiser
                 saying you are very sick and you want to make an appointment
                 to see a doctor, and the guy on the phone keeps on asking you
                 if you feel this and if you feel that, telling you it's no big
                 deal and go get some over-the-counter medicine and drink lots
                 lots of water, and bye.  If you insist on making an
                 appointment, he'll tell you there's a slot in three months.
                 Then you're left dying and he gets a bonus for turning yet
                 another patient away and saving the company money.  For this
                 kind of medical care, it's easy to outsource to any English-
                 speaking country with a phone network.
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26240 Activity:high
10/17   3 votes against the asian chick.  Racism!
        \_ stay angry! http://www.angryasianman.com/angry.html
        \_ What about Terilyn Joe?
2002/10/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26231 Activity:high
10/17   Deregulation is good for you, just trust us:
        \_ nonsense.  California never deregulated.  If you don't know the
           *very* basic facts that were all over the newspapers then give it
           up, trollboy.
           \_ Name an industry that is deregulated then.
              \_ Duh, there aren't any.  Some are more regulated than others
                 but what the numbskulls in CA did was nothing even remotely
                 close to deregulation.
2002/10/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26190 Activity:very high
10/15   What's a phone # to dial that'll tell you the number you're calling
        from? I've seen a phone technician do it a couple of times.
        \_ 114 works for me.
        \_ it's called an ANI (auto number id). that should help your
           search on GOOGLE. --aaron
        \_ Doesn't *69 automatically dial the number for you?
                \_ Uhh no, it would dial the LAST number who called you. OP
                   wants to know the phone number he/she is dialing from.
                   I think it used to be 1-800-346-0152, which is a 'loopback'
                   phone number used by PacBell technicians to test newly-
                   installed phone line. If you run into one of them, just ask.
                   It's not a secret..
        \_ Answer is in here:
2002/10/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26176 Activity:insanely high
10/14   anybody have experience whistle blowing  or getting a news organization
        to write about something using internal info?  My company is laying off
        american workers here and hiring a shitload of indian programmers.
        What the fuck?  I want more coverage on shit like this.
           \_ Are they laying off workers in the US and hiring them for the
              office in india?
        \_ Time to look for another job. Based on my experience with h1b fops
           (as opposed to h1bs with grad degrees from a US school), they are
           probably the only group of programmers on earth worse than the
           '1337 GN00/L1NUX crowd. Placing products in h1b hands invariably
           means buggy code that is delivered late. Buggy products that are
           late don't sell well in most markets, which will lead to the
           untimely demise of your company (sold or bankrupt). Save yourself,
           look for another job.
        \_ on another note, what do you think of illegal immigrants
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-Americans,
              right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
           being charged in-state tuition at state funded colleges
           in California?
           \_ If we charge them out-of-state tuition then we might
              hurt their feelings which would be bad.
           \_ duh, ship them home.  fucking ridiculous.
        \_ what about http://www.fuckedcompany.com
           \_ heh, one way or another they'll be listed on fc eventually.
        \_ Your best bet is probably Salon. Any mainstream news organization
           is going to avoid stories like these. A friend of mine wrote a
           story on this topic for The Chronicle and the next week her boss
           called in to his office and told her she would be fired if she
           kept writing controversial stuff like that.
           \_ I wonder if your friend is covered by any sort of whistleblower
              laws?  What company was it?
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-
              Americans, right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
              \_ H1Bs are only to be used when local employees don't exist.
                 \_ Don't be naive.  It never works like that.
                 \_ Exactly, and so why would the Chronicle find it offensive
                    to expose this employer's bad behavior?  [formatd]
                    \_ I got the feeling that it had annoyed some important
        \_ Maybe try to get the laid-off people to sue.
           \_ After lawyer and uncle Sam, you arent going to get much out
              of the law suit even if you won, at the expense of no one
              ever want to hire you in the future.
        \_ what's wrong with that?
           \_ for starters its against the law....
              \- What law is it against? --psb
                 \_ You can't replace citizens with H1b's.  The law that
                    creates the H1b program defines when they can be legally
                    used.  Replacing Americans isn't it.
                    \- maybe you should become a steel worker.
                       \_ maybe the scumbags who are illegally letting in
                          foreigners should following the fucking law and get
                          punished when they violate it?
                          \- what do you mean by "scumbags illegally letting
                          in foreigners"? if you mean cracking down on say
                          emplyers hiring illegal immigrant farm workers,
                          domestic help and such, i agree with you ... that
                          is certainly more efficient, but politcally naturally
                          it is unpalatable to crack down on the white collar
                          nanny-hiring set ... as it is easier to go after
                          poor drug dealers rather than raiding suburban
                          coke parties. i thought you were talking about
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker is
                          available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs will
                          do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          legal aliens? --psb
                           \_ If an H1b is allowed in to the country to replace
                              an American worker that is an illegal use of the
                              H1b visa, therefore the H1b person is here
                              illegally and the company sponsor has broken the
                              law.  The first should be deported and the other
                              needs some legal punishment.  That's what I mean.
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of the
                voting population, then vote to change the flag and the national
                language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                       \_ By the way, how can you tell whether an H1B worker is
                          replacing an American or taking a job that one else
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker
                          is available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs
                          will do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          wouldn't afford to hire an american for $70K/year
                          anyways but I can imagine that there might be
                          companies that can afford to pay $70K per year to an
                          American worker but still try to get a "free ride" by
                          hiring an H1B worker.
                          \_ It's based on the concept of 'market rate' not
                             what some cheap ass company can 'afford'.
                \_ Exactly.  What's wrong with replacing every single worker in
                this country with a lower cost imported worker, then have them
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of
                the voting population, then vote to change the flag and the
                national language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                \- h1b workers cannot vote [which i think is proper]. also
                   "infiltrating the electorate"  and then "voting for change
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT jobs
           left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are "more
           expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
                   is probably a lot less efficient than just lobbying with $
                   oh wait you are only interesting in restricting the
                   influence of poor people without the money to lobby? --psb
                   \_ Anyone who shows at a polling place can vote.  When I
                      voted the last few times (each in a different county), I
                      simply pointed at my name on their list and voted.
        \_ there was a lot of h1b bashing on craigslist, but one tidbit of
           info was a suit against Sun for laying off am. workers but keeping
           and/or hiring foreign workers. I'm sure that you if gave real hard
           evidence to those being laid off that they could sue the company
           for lotsa $$$. rather than face publicity, a company usually will
           settle with the employees that sued. some employees sign away their
           right to sue when they agree to a severance package. give these
           people a smoking gun now before it's too late.
        \_ Imagine this scenario:  There are one million IT workers.  The
           economy doubles, one million H1B visa workers are added.  Now there
           are two million IT workers.  The economy goes in the toilet, we now
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT
           jobs left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are
           "more expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
           \_ please try to constrain your scenarios to something approaching
              reality.  Companies for the most part don't prefer H1B workers
              to "real 'merricuns", which is why H1B applications have dropped
              drastically since the dotcom bust.  -tom
              \_ how the hell would *you* know?  you *ever* worked outside the
                 cozy warm fuzzy walls of academia?
           \_ We should have formed a union when the economy was strong. Then
              we'd be like those dockworkers. -ausman
              \_ Some folks talked about it at the time.  Where were you?
                 \_ You should have contacted me. I could never find anyone
                    else interested.
           \_ Partha seems to think so.
           \_ Of course not, but is firing one million H1Bs and not firing
              a single American fair?  Is it feasible, and would that make
              sense?  If you are an employer and you have two employees,
              1 an H1B and the other an American citizen or PR.  Both of
              them have worked at the company for 3 years.  Let's assume that
              H1B is the better employee in terms of skills and dedication.
              So you decide to layoff the American citizen.  Would you
              consider that as breaking the law?
              \_ Is it fair to fire everyone H1b before a single American?
                 Yes.  That's what the law says.  That's the risk the H1b
                 takes when coming here on an H1b. (or is supposed to be
                 taking)  Your hypothetical situation is not what the H1b
                 covers or has anything to do with.  Of course you keep your
                 H1b DBA and lay off the American janitor.
                 \_ I disagree.  I think it should only be during hiring
                    when the American should have preference over an H1B
                    worker.  The preference should not exist when deciding
                    whom to layoff.  When hiring, American workers are,
                    in principle, protected by the requirement that a H1B
                    worker's salary meets prevailing wages requirements.
                    Breaking the law: "Hiring a H1B worker to replace an
                    American citizen."  Not breaking the law: "Firing
                    an American citizen instead of a H1B worker based
                    on performance and merit."
                    \_ You realise that in an at-will job market like CA, your
                       plan has about, oh, 5.7 zillion loop holes in it?  And
                       that's still not the law.
           \- what do you suggest is fair in that scenario? seniority only?
              cut everyone back to 20hrs/week? i realize this often fails
              but i think companies do have some sense to look at efficiency
              not just expense ... so if you are 50% more productive but
              make 30% more than a h1b, then you should be secure. now if
              the problem is you arent that much more productive, then you
              do have a problem. but except for the nationlistic aspect this
              is the same thing middle-aged people with "20yrs experience"
              whine about when some kid whose only friend is his PS2 replaces
              him ... because the kid is willing to work until 10pm and on
              weekends in exchange for free tshirts and soda. --psb
              \_ The H1b is supposed to be making market rate.  If he's not
                 then we have yet another illegal hiring by the company.
                 \- 30% difference is within "market rate" i believe.
                    we're not talking about shipping a job overseas where
                    they may be making less by an order of mag.
                    \_ 30% spread for the same job title/skills/experience is
                       *nothing* like market rate.
        \_ Americans should come first, that is the point.  What other
           \- how about "white people"? should white people come first too?
           country shows us any real generosity?  Why should we be making
           citizens of other countries rich?  -ax
                    \- i wouldnt chalk this up to "generosity" but one
                       interpretation of part ofthe h1b phenomenon is
                       the indian govy is subsidizing the education
                       for us high tech workers. --psb
                       \_ say what?  how do you figure *that*?
           \_ cuz like dude it's all one world. you should spend your time
              creating free software with no compensation so these other
              countries can use that too.
              \_ D00D U R 50 R1GH7! FR33 D3B14N GN00/L1NUX 4 3V3RY1!
        \_ While all of you fuckheads were arguing I went out and started a
           company, sold it and am now typing this from my beach house in
           Tahiti.  Just thought you should know.
                \_ How fast is the internet in Tahiti? Do you have a
                   fiber line or are you stuck with a sat. uplink?
                   \_ I have a T-1, but it's pretty damn pricey.
                   \_ He got his T1 from me.  I'm running a few sat. phones
                      from the beach house he's renting from me and told him
                      it was a full T1, just slow because of the distance.
           \_ are you the guy who wrote OrCAD on his apple ][ in 6th grade?
2002/10/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:26158 Activity:high
10/11   Do the Democrats have no shame? Character assassination forces
        Montana Republican out of race:
        \_ The quote at the end is the only thing that makes any sense in
           the whole article.
           \_ Yes, I'm sure the head of a gay rights group would say that and
              I'm not at all surprised that a motd poster would find that the
              only thing that makes sense.
        \_ Hint: smear campaigning isn't unique to the DNC.
           \_ URL or example please.
        \_ If something as paltry as that was enough to force him out of the
           race, he didn't belong in it to begin with.
           \_ It was Montana.  It wasn't paltry.  If he's smart, he's already
              loaded everything he owns and hit the road before a mob kills
              him.  Death isn't paltry.
        \_ uh, how is showing actual footage of the candidate "character
           \_ No cookie.
           \_ The music running behind the ad wasn't part of the actual footage.
        \_ What about just looking ugly? Bill Simon looks pretty nasty in those
           slow-mo, black&white Davis ads.
           \_ I don't know why Davis bothers.  Simon has a base of people who
              would vote for him simply because he's not Davis.  Nothing will
              change that.  Davis should be more worried about his own
              negatives because if he loses it'll be because too many stayed
              home or voted communist/green because Davis stinks too much.
2002/10/9 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26141 Activity:nil
10/10   do they have crispy creme(sp?) donut stores in northern california?
2002/10/5 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26106 Activity:high
10/4    i know that most ppl sign an at-will contract with their high tech
        employers, but can an employer let you go and might possibly hire
        someone without cause (other than perhaps "don't like you" or "don't
        like your attitude")?  if not and they did, is there anything that one
        can do?  and, will you be able to get umemployment benefit?
        \_ If you're not in a union, you're at will in CA.  You can ask a
           labor lawyer or the CA state labor board (or whatever it's called).
           If fired = no unemployment.  If laid off = yes unemployment.
        \_ At will doesn't really mean at will. They can't fire you because
           you're too old, or because you're black, or because you won't give
           a blow job to the boss, or whatever... you have rights.
           \_ Don't be naive.  They won't put "fired: old, black, lousy bjs"
              on your exit forms.  You're in CA.  You're at will.
           \_ But can they fire you if you won't get a blowjob from the boss?
              \_ Yes.  They can fire you for not accepting your boss's offer
                 of a mandatory bj.  You're at-will.  You can be fired for
                 absolutely anything.
2002/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26093 Activity:high
10/3    This is yet another reason to not vote Libertarian:
        \_ My friend just emailed this to someone who takes that stuff
           and that guy got *really* defensive.
           \_ Yeah well wait til he turns purple... permanently.
2002/10/3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:26086 Activity:very high
10/2    http://csua.org/u/36e
        See, that's what's wrong with America. An entreprenuer tries to
        make a little money by starting his own business with some willing
        adults and the whiney liberal trial lawyers screw it up for him.
        \_ It's called exploitation.  Would it be right for you to ask
           a homeless woman to have sex with you if you gave her a sandwich
           in return?  We have laws against that.
                \_ That's pretty sick all right.  Ewww.
            \_ How do you feel about Professional boxing?  Should Don King
               be arrested as well?  I know tom thinks it's o.k. 'cause The
               Man gave Don's org a license.  How about you?
               Also, if some homeless woman wants to trade her body so she
               DOESN'T STARVE TO DEATH, It sure is a good thing there
               are people like you around to make sure she isn't "forced"
               to do anything as horrible as having sex.
               \_ No one is this country has starved to death since the
                  depression.  Try again.
        \_ Ah yes, the ambulance chasing lawyers read the net, too.
        \_ Maybe they can sneak a video cam in to prison and produce
           Prison Fights.
           \_ Want to star in my new movie?  You and 1000 felons.  I'm
              calling it Prison Rape.
        \_ everything else aside, only in america would this happen. you
           don't find this fucked up behavior like this in any other country.
           \_ No, you find much worse, like death squads, people going to vote
              risking their lives to do so, UN sanctioned slavery, stonings
              for a long list of 'moral' violations, etc.  Take the Blame
              America First crap somewhere else where they don't know better.
2002/10/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26071 Activity:high
10/1    I think the 2 party system has got to go. When two crooks are put up
        at the local level and people pick between them, the whole crookedness
        just filters on up to the top. It's time to stop electing reps or dems
        to congress.
        \_ run.
           \_ ... for the hills.
        \_ Join the Reform Party.
           \_ the 'my vote doesn't count for shit, it just takes away votes
              from one of the other two major parties' party ?  Or was that the
              'take votes away freom the DEM party so GWB can win' party?
              \_ Ross Perot had no impact on either election, other than
                 for talk show material.  He stole from both parties.
                 \_ RP took 3 (R) votes for every (D) vote.
          \_ It turns out that chairman of the CA state Reform party lives
             in Sunnyvale and is named Paul Hale.  When I moved to Sunnyvale, I
             didn't know this, and I foolishly had my number listed in the phone
             book.  So now I constantly get calls by a bunch of lame fucks who
              \_ Yeah Italty is a great example of highly efficient and
             actually want to run for president.  Let's just say that I'd rather
             have our current two-party system instead of the lame and scary
             assholes I've had a chance to talk to.  -phale
        \_ Much better would be to have a European style parliament system
           where nutbags like the greens can actually gain seats and have power
           in the government.
           \_ Like Italy!  Powerful government!
              \_ Yeah Italy is a great example of highly efficient and
                 functional government.  Got a 100% voting rate too because
                 voting is mandatory if you want a job, government services or
                 to be a part of society in just about any way.
                 \_ So in Italy there's no right to remain slient?
        \_ Bah, you're looking at it the wrong way. You want to elect the
           crooked guy who helps you out the most.
2002/9/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:26052 Activity:high
9/30    What does "neo-liberalism" mean?
        \_ google "what does newliberal mean", "I'm feeling lucky":
           Essentially I think it means economically liberal... which means
           a hands-off type approach to economics... so free-market-type
           stuff. I think this type of liberal ecnomic policy is now
           considered somewhat conservative (as "liberals"  believe in more
           hands-on type of economies), hence the term "neo-liberal". This
           is essentially what libretarians are: economically conservative (eg
           neo-liberal), but socially liberal (in the tradtional sense).
           \_ I think a better term for libertarians is "nutcases"
              \_ another term is "half of the csua"... sad but true, computer
                 geeks love ayn rand.
                 \_ I never read Ayn Rand in my life.  Does that mean I'm not
                    a computer geek?  I don't even know what her beliefs are.
              \_ There's nothing wrong with the basic libertarian premise of
                 minimal government.  They just take it too far.  That's the
                 nutcase part.  Sort of like how democrats would have a 100%
                 confiscatory tax or republicans would allow big business to
                 bring back slavery if allowed free reign.
                 \_ Some libertarians are more extreme than others.  It's
                    obviously equally silly to equate the entire movement
                    with the fringes, for democrats, republicans, or
                    libertarians.  A conservative libertarian is very hard
                    to tell from a moderate republican.
           \_ No, that's not what 'libretarians' are.  Libertarians believe
              in a hands off approach both economically and socially.  Ayn
              Rand is an objectivist, not a libertarian.  All objectivists
              are libertarian, but not all libertarians are objectivists.
              And incidentally, you are all uninformed morons.  -- libertarian
              \_ your attitude illustrates why most people dislike
                 libertarians.  it's not just an ideological difference,
                 it's that most libertarians seem to be assholes.
                 \_ Better to be an asshole than wrong.  That's the whole
                    premise of being a libertarian.
2002/9/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:26024 Activity:high
9/27    Mexico has more billionaires than England, and yet...
        'Bill could bring relief for U.S.-Mexico border hospitals'
        'Dealing with the High Cost of Health Care'
        \_ some of the richest people in the world live in some of the
           worst-off countries in the world.  this is by no means a
           \_ But only a handful overall.
        \_ "In Mexico, the top 1 percent own 50 percent of the wealth."
            The URL is largely irrelevent, but that fact is from there.
            And there are many more and crazier statistics than this. Its
            called the growing gap between rich and poor. Learn about it.
            In fact, statistics like the one you mention often only attest
            to things being worse not better since it says more about how
            rampant corruption there is than how rich the nation is.
            \_ In the US, nearly 50% of the population pay no federal income
               tax.  That's scarier, IMO.
               \_ For reference: "Taxpayers in the bottom half paid only 4
                  percent of income taxes in 1999, according to the IRS."
                  Here I don't know whether "taxpayer" means people/couples who
                  filed fed tax returns, or people/couples who actually had to
                  pay some tax.  Either way, it probably doesn't include those
                  who didn't file returns.
               \_ So what?  They still have to pay payroll taxes.
                  \_ The point is a voting majority who can impose more taxes on
                     the voting minority with no consequence (indirectly of
                     course, since voters don't introduce legislation federally,
                     but since more and more the answer of the day is
                     policy-by-poll, I'm worried).
                  \_ The point is a voting majority who can impose more taxes
                     on the voting minority with no consequence (indirectly
                     of course, since voters don't introduce legislation
                     federally, but since more and more the answer of the day
                     is policy-by-poll, I'm worried).
                     \_ Yea, the number of votes should be based on the
                        amount of tax paid.
                        \_ Who was it that said democracy is only ok until the
                           voting slobs figure out they can vote themselves
                           goodies at other people's expense?  We're at that
                           point in history right now.  I know you're being
                           sarcastic but it doesn't work when there's a huge
                           disconnect between the power to vote and influence
                           government and the costs associated with those same
                           votes.  Something to chew on.
                           \_ Alexander Tyler.  I think.  ~peterm/.plan
            \_ There's *always* been a huge gap between the rich and poor.
               When exactly do you think this wasn't so?
               \_ It has grown larger in the last 50 years:
                  \_ Not the last 50 years.  I meant through all of recorded
                     history.  The last 50 years is barely a statistical blip.
        \_ The real issue is why do we need to spend more US taxpayer dollars
           to take care of some other country's ill citizens?
2002/9/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26019 Activity:high
9/26    Let's say a certain state wants to split from the US and become a
        separate country, is there any legal way to do it?  Can it run a
        popular vote within the state, similar to what Quebec did?
        \_ yes, there is a process for this.
        \_ No, there is no way to do this.  Some tried it in the mid 1800's (you
           may have heard of it) but it didn't work.
           \_ you can create an amendment to do almost anything.
              \_ It would never pass.  Once you join the Union, you're in for
                 good.  Think of it like the GPL.
                 \_ whether it would pass or not is a separate issue.  The
                    question is whether there is a legal way to do it.  There
                    is, even if it is quite unlikely.
                    \_ No.  There is no way currently to do it legally
                       (with the exception of Texas, actually).
                        \_ I thought New Hampshire or Vermont also had the
                           mythical "escape clause"?  Also, if you're going
                           go get into legal technicalities, I believe
                           international law would permit HI and CA to
                           secede, as they were annexed (albeit with the
                           consent of their respective governments at the
                           time)  -John
                           \_ Huh -- that's pretty interesting.  I'll have
                              to look into this more.  Thanks!     -mice
        \_ http://www.siptn.org/April/williams.htm
           Take the above with grain of salt.
2002/9/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Consumer/Camera, Computer/Networking] UID:26003 Activity:moderate
9/25    Okay, going to ask this again since it got nuked while I was rudely
        getting my beauty sleep--looking for tips on placement of 802.11b
        APs (5 AirPorts in a mid-sized building with ca. 70 clients.)  Also,
        curious whether it's best to use the same frequency on all APs
        or increment it, and whether there's a common method used by clients
        to pick an AP if they receive signals from several.  ok tnx.  -John
        \_ It's in the motd archives.
             \_ Where are the motd archives?
                \_ this question has been asked before... check the archives.
2002/9/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Recreation/Media] UID:25995 Activity:very high
9/24    Soon, all news and media content will be controlled by one super-
        company called Disney-ABC-CNN-AOL-Time-Warner, a division of Fox
        Broadcasting (okay, I made that last part up).
        \_ At least Fox will be a porn network someday.
           \_ You mean it isn't already?
               \_ "Hi! I've never actually watched but I'm going to mouth off
                   about something I might have heard something about once in
                   a weak attempt to look way kewl to my equally empty headed
                   'friends' on the motd!"  Go home.  Fuck yermom.  It's your
                   best and last hope.
                   \_ Cool, can you get that show on Fox?
                      \_ On the PPV Fox channel, yes.
                   \_ "Hi! I'm a festering asshole!" Go away. You're not
                      \_ The truth is rarely interesting.  It's much more fun
                         to just make shit up.  You'd know about that.
                   \_  You mean it isn't already? --poster who's watched Fox
                      \_ You have a weird idea of what pr0n is.  Is your
                         ideal 'h0t nekkid chik' a man about age 38, vote
                         republican and wear a grey suit?  I pity you.
        \_ Which will go down the drain within 18 months leaving us with a
           variety of independent news sources, thank god.
           \_ i wish there was a way to pay for a subscription to
              a specific *journalist* with out dealing with any
              paper or network.  i'd be willing to pay quite a bit
              of cash if i really thought i could get competent,
              unedited reporting from it.  i wish some journalists
              with integrity would try this. i'm sure i'm not the only
              one.  i'm so sick of the lies and fluff.
              \_ Watch or listen to the BBC. --dim
                 \_ Could you add a URL? Google wasn't too helpful. Thanks.
                 \_ Yeah, that way you can watch foreigners bash the US instead
                    of seeing US Citizens doing the hatchet job.
              \_ I like The Week magazine. It publishes excerpts from all
                 over the world and from across the political specrum. If
                 you only read the output of one journalist, you wouldn't
                      want to get a balanced perspetive, you need to read from
                 be reading much, though maybe someday you could mix and
                 match as you saw fit. -ausman
                \_ right wing bs.  read World Press Review instead.
                   \_ I have never heard of that publication before, thanks
                      for letting me know about it. The Week isn't exactly
                      right wing bs, though it is pretty mainstream. It is
                      at least a more or less independent voice. If you really
                      want to get a balanced perspective, you need to read from
                      all over the spectrum like The Nation and The Economist.
                      But I try to avoid stuff published by the megacorps. -a
                      \_ Those happen to be the two mags that I read! --elite
                   \_ Uhm, just because they publish things from the right does
                      not mean they have a "right wing bias".  They publish
                      from the entire spectrum.  Does it hurt your little brain
                      to read material from a different perspective sometimes?
                      It's always easier to just read the same self-reinforcing
                      swill everyday.  No thought required.  No challenge.
2002/9/19 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25942 Activity:nil
9/18    Mexico is totally fucked.
        \_ what mexico and many other country need is chinese communist
           party. Democracy my ass.
           \_ agreed. in a time like this you need a ruthless leader
              to crack down on crimes. After one or two generation, it
              will get better. China was much worst before 1949. Now
              it's one of the safest place, far better than any major
              city in the US.
              \_ China is one of the safest place now?  It probably was twenty
                 years ago, but that's no longer the case now.
           \_ Yeah let's bring in some iron fisted piece of shit to murder
              all the annoying people, then we'll have peace and security at
              the expense of freedom.  We need peace with honor!
              \_ if you mean horror, then ask anyone who lives in singapore
                 whether they feel horror or not. You know that
                 american fucker who painted a singapore bus? He got
                 what he deserved. You'll bet he'll never paint
                 another bus in singapore again. This is the kind of
                 law system Mexico need, not the one we have here.
                 \_ Punishment won't do jack if your cops are corrupt
                    or incompetant.
        \_ Just like the southern part of the Phillipines.
        \_ Mexico, like all South/Central American countries, was founded by
           European aristocrats and, with no middle class, remains this way
           today. A damning indictment of European 'enlightenment'.  Mexico
           is a wealthy country.
           Except now, the wealthy are ridding their countries of the poor by
           sending them to the U.S., where the US taxpayer bears the burden.
           Unlike past waves of immigrants who started at the bottom and worked
           their way up, the socialist Democrats now buy immigrant votes with
           welfare.  Import an underclass, nice scam at the expense of
           American citizens.
        \_ Pleeeezzzeee...the vast majority of illegals come here to work,
           unlike lazy, fat americans, and they work the jobs no one, including
           yourself, would take. And their low pay contributes to your cheap
           meals, low cost produce, clean offices, etc, etc. It may make you
           feel good to scapegoat them, but they are a priceless asset to
           US businesses.
                \_ Yes, a large percentage of them do come here to work.  But
                   have you bothered to look at the welfare and crime
                   statistics in California, Texas and other border states?
                   More likely, you are just emoting a knee jerk reaction to
                   something of which you are completely ignorant. I post
                   statistics to the MOTD, but they are deleted, probably by
                   someone not unlike yourself.
                   Why do you think California is in a fiscal nightmare?
                   Ever hear of Prop. 187, and Davis's / Clinton's backroom
                   deal to nullify the will of the voters?
                   And frankly, allowing illegals is an insult to those who
                   come here through legal channels.  What kind of message
                   does it send when you're existence in this country to begin
                   with flaunts statutes.  20% of Honduras' population is in
                   the United States.
                   Guess what Mexico has on its Southern Border - its MILITARY.
                   We have had border patrol agents murdered, two FBI agents
                   in critical condition just last week.
                   Controlled immigration yes. A porous border and unregulated
                   mass migration no, unless you like living in third world
                   shit holes.  One more thing, jobs Americans won't take:
                   maybe you as a prissy dilletante won't do blue collar work
                   for a living, but ALOT, maybe MOST Americans will.
                   Fucking limousine liberal.
                   \_ Have you ever picked fruit for a living? Do you know
                      anyone that has? I didn't think so. No
                      wonder your "facts" get deleted, every other
                      word out of your mouth is a cuss word or a personal
                      attack. Learn to behave like a human being and you
                      will be treated like one. And California is doing fine,
                      in fact it is the state more Americans would like to
                      live in than any other.
                        \_ Very well though out, cogent reply to factual
                           statements made above - really.
                           Can you do anything except emote?
                   \_ But Jose...
        \_ The reason you have cheap food is because the federal government
           provides prices supports.  They don't pay taxes and yet state/Fed
           pays welfare, health care, social security, education ...
2002/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25922 Activity:high
9/17    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63370,00.html
        And here's the party of division and hatred reaping what it has sown.
        It's a karma thing, kids.  If they had real policies and stood by them
        instead of knitting together pseudo coalitions of minorities glued
        together with other people's tax dollars maybe the party wouldn't be
        directionless and in such terrible shape today.
        [If you can't dispute it, DELETE IT!  restored]
2002/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25904 Activity:very high
9/17    Davis commercial says he'll restore the 40 hour work week.
        Let's vote for him!
        \_ Uhm, what?
           \_ that's what the tv commercial said.  I don't know more than
        \_ restore it from what?
           \_ 9-track tapes
              \_ Wasn't the 40 hr work week lost before that technology
                 was available?
        \_ Screw the 40 hr work week, lets go with the EU standard of
           a 35 hr work week.
           \_ And a European quality economy that makes our current situation
              look truly stellar and robust.  Hey, anyone up for a garbage
              strike nation wide?
           \_ You don't want to dominate the world economy anymore?
              \_ I'm just saying that if Gray wants to further limit
                 the CA businesses, he shouldn't stop with a 40 hr
                 work week, he should go all the way and embrace the
                 the 35 hr EU STANDARD! work week.
2002/9/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25841 Activity:high
9/11    Humor for the day: Florida again fucks up an election.  I think this
        should be a Two Strikes thing.  We should rescind all elections in
        Florida until they can figure out how to do it right.  Even California
        somehow manages with lower literacy rates and more people.
        \_ What do you expect from a state run by "Jeb"?
           \_ ok, what would you do to fix the problem if you were
              governor of florida?
           \_ Uh oh, lefty didn't read the news this morning....  Please go
              read an article, any article, before sticking your agenda driven
              foot in your mouth again.
              \_ I'm not a lefty, just someone who likes making fun of morons.
                 Guess I hit a soft spot with you, eh?
                 \_ Uhm, no, you're a lefty and an idiot.  your comeback is
                    incredibly weak.
2002/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25783 Activity:high
9/5     while some of you rally about memorializing 9/11, how about
        some thought for those killed in Munich at the 1972 Olympic
        Games 30 years ago?  2 killed on the morning of Sep 5 1972,
        9 more the next day Sep 6 1972.  11 athletes killed.
        \_ It's all fucked up.  Get a grip.
        \_ They were Jews.  Not even American Jews.
           \_ Sign your name, (coward|troll).
           \_ will somebody please think of the children!!!!!
              \_ Are they Jewish American children?  Do they vote and donate?
        \_ 2500+ dead and 85 billion in economic damage in NYC...
           not even close!  and anyway didn't the Mossad kill just
           \_ that's 2500+ third-world oppressing, environment despoiling,
              culturally hegemonistic, infidel american pigs.  they deserve
              to die.
           about everyone involved in the Munich attacks eventually?
           \_ Most didn't make it in the long term, yes.
              \_ over a long enough period of time everyone's chances
                 of survival drop to zero.
                 \_ Ok, tell you what, you go kill yourself now because hey,
                    over the long term your survival odds are zero anyway,
                    right?  I'll fly the plane with the gun toting pilot and
                    we'll both be happy.  So, you're a dormy, right?  This is
                    the kind of silly thing dormies would say in late night
                    drunken "debate" when discussing god, abortion, the death
                    penalty, and every other issue drunken dormies have
                    'solved' over the years.
                    \_ calm down.  it's a quote from Fight Club.
                        \_ why quote stupid lines from movies very few people
                           \_ because i find it amusing to watch people
                              like you get agitated.  please continue.
        \_ We don't care about them non-Americans, you damned terrorist!
        \_ ignoring ideology, how about looking at 1972 as
           an example of how complacency and media-attention combine
           to create a situation begging for exploitation by terrorists?
           \_ My God!  You've discovered the mastermind behind the Munich
              massacre!  It's Siebler!
2002/8/23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:25657 Activity:insanely high
8/22    try to figure this one out. "tax cuts are not spending restraint,
        they are spending." Sen. Lieberman in Iowa recently.
        \_ tax cuts would be restraint if there was not deficit spending.
           spending cuts are spending restraint. tax cuts == more debt.
        \_ his assertion here is that you are spending money by giving it
           to whomever the tax cuts favor. typically, rich people.
           \_ as opposed to cutting unemployment benefits and health
              benefits which are spending restraint
           \_ As opposed to giving free money to someone so they will
              vote for you and for more money.  Democrats core
              philosophy is class warfare.
              \_ Purpose of govt is the curb the strong and protect the weak
                 \_ No, the purpose of government is to maintain order,
                    PROTECT OUR BORDERS, enforce the law and otherwise stay
                    the fuck out of the way.  Go read the federalist papers
                    or the constitution or *something*.  Civics, it does a
                    body good.
              \_ Republicans just give the money to their rich friends instead.
                 Which is class warfare too, just of a different kind.
                 \_ You are wrong, conservatives want the
                    people who EARNED the money to keep it.  Imagine
                    that, rewarding initiative.
                    \_ Hah!  See?  You all hate poor people!  Don't you know
                       that the rich have a moral obligation to take care of
                       the poor?  You can afford it even if you're still
                       paying a greater share of taxes by percent of your
                       income, by percent of the total tax take, and by a few
                       other percent counting methods (all of them, actually),
                       even after all the so-called tax breaks.  Vicious, evil
                       money grubbers just don't understand what it's like to
                       be put down by The Man all the time!  Send more free
                       money I haven't earned and I'll vote for you!  -Democrat
                        \_ Ah, so the guilty liberal conscious finally
                           rears its ugly head.  You are more than welcome
                           to subsidize whoever you want, whatever you
                           want, whenever you want.
                           However, when you take 40% of my money by coercion
                           to pay for Socialized everything that is tyranny!
                           Don't you see the inherent racism in your
                           comment - the unwashed masses (eg. brown people)
                           need me, the gallant liberal, to define
                           their existence.  Fucking disgusting.
                           \_ you're both unconvincing.  the above troll
                              clearly is bullshitting, and i don't believe
                              you are really what you say you are either.
                              train harder.
                              \_ it wasn't a troll, moron.  its called sarcasm
                                 and maybe irony & a touch of hyperbole as
                                 well.  it isn't my fault if _both_ of you are
                                 too stupid to see it.  at least the Right
                                 recognised the Left's philosophy in my
                                 so-called troll, whereas the Left is incapable
                                 of recognising what they look like outside
                                 their tight little Anti-Think niche.  -!troll
        \_ Tax cuts are no different than spending as far as keeping a balanced
           budget is concerned.
           \_ However there is an important distinction between spending which
              means draining the economy of money through taxes for some sort
              of artificial redistribution plan (communism) and reducing taxes
              which requires lowering spending across the board and reducing
              the size of government (one of the things true conservatives
              believe in).  And who said a balanced budget is good anyway?
              Debt is not always bad.  It depends on how big your debt, at
              what rate(s), for what purpose(s) and how much you need to pay
              back vs. your income.
                \_ We're paying something like 25-33% of our national income
                   toward interest on our debt.  Is that good debt?
                   \_ Liar.  Or ignorant fool.
                      \_ Well "something like" could mean anything from 0-100.
                   \_ I'm not a specialist in macro-economics.  I have no idea.
              \_ Artificial redistribution plans?  Like farm subsidies?
                 \_ Actually, yes, like farm subsidies and welfare, and a
                    whole bunch of other stupid wasteful programs that destroy
                    this country's soul.  Yes.  Artificial redistribution.
                 \_ Yeah, and public education. Another communist plot.
                    \_ Actually, I knew some Berkeley students who did
                       denounce public education as "communist". It
                       baffles me that someone who thinks so low of
                       public education decided to go to Berkeley.
                        \_ Right thats why evil vouchers would
                           allow those who pay the taxes in the first
                           place to choose a school for their children.
                           Freedom of choice, that is anticommunist.
                           And have you bothered to investigate
                           any of the allegations made? Our public
                           education system is in ruin, despite an throwing
                           endless stream of money at it.  Yet, you
                           never stop to ask yourself why that is.
                           \_ Wow -- you sound like a true libertarian.
                              Sign your posts, man.  I'm curious to know
                              who you are -- honest-to-god libertarians are
                              rare -- esp in berkeley.        -mice
                              \_ <DEAD>www.geekpad.org<DEAD> is a house full of 'em...
                                 in berkeley.
                              \_ I'm not at all libertarian but I 100% agree
                                 with the above on the totally worthless
                                 public schools and vouchers.  And btw, this
                                 country didn't always have public schools, yet
                                 somehow the earth kept spinning and the sun
                                 rose in the east every morning.  Go figure.
2002/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25585 Activity:nil
8/15    Republican states are all rural ghettoes:

        "Yet subsidies are, at best, a mixed blessing. They are robbing the
        heartland of its spirit of initiative and entrepreneurship. Rural
        ghettos now suffer from all the dependence-induced pathologies of
        their urban cousins. They are also creating a sort of state-funded
        feudalism that is the very antithesis of the American tradition of
        rugged individualism. Huge quantities of government money flow to a
        handful of landowners, most of them in Texas and California, who
        preside over vast armies of ill-educated and poorly paid migrant
        \_ What, then, does that make a city where transexual city employees
           get their sex change operations paid for by the tax payers, where
           HIV+ positives flock for FREE benefits, also at the expense of
           the tapayers, and you have incontinent degenerates who extol
           acts of public sodomy and pedophilia?  And guess who started
           those subsidies, the greatest socialist of them all - FDR.
           Nothing like buying votes, its been perfected to an artform.
           And it was your profligates Davis and Clintoon that
           illegally annuled Prop. 187.  As if you, or the author,
           have even set foot in the rural areas you denigrate.
           \_ ...you think anyone is going to take you seriously if you can't
              come up with an insulting alternate spelling for davis as well
              as clinton?  train harder.
2002/8/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25577 Activity:moderate
8/15    When are strawberries in season?
        \_ Depends where you live, and what sort of strawberries.
           In CA, I'd say late may thru June.  Some types of strawberries
           bear all summer, though.
           \_ You can usually get about three good crops through the summer
              months. You should be able to find some now.
              \_ This his is in CA or in CA-like climates. In central Russia,
                 for instance (the only other agricultural setting I know
                 well), there's only one usable season, circa first 3 weeks
                 of June. -alexf
2002/8/10 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic] UID:25535 Activity:insanely high
8/9     'Were economic data manipulated?'
        No I don't believe it - more conspiracy.
        \_ If you continue to post myth smashing facts on the motd you're
           going to get purged by the self appoint motd star chamber of one.
           going to get purged by the self appointed motd star chamber of one.
        \_ What makes you think they are telling the truth now?
        \_ What makes you think they are telling the truth now? It seems just
           as likely to me that the economy flew higher and crashed harder than
           the government wants to admit, so they are trying to lower the
           baseline a bit to hide the deep recession we are in now and
           try to keep us out of a depresssion.
                \_ ie. we need tax cuts, not increases in taxes ala
                   Gray Davis
                   \_ are you a "free market"er as well?
2002/7/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25287 Activity:moderate
7/5     Looking for a place to go for cherry/strawberry/etc. picking around the
        Bay Area.  Ideally, it's a within a 3 hours drive.  Anyone has any URLs
        or recommentions?  Searching with "California Cherry Picking Tourist"
        and different combinations at Google didn't return anything useful.
        \_ Do I just think the right way for google searches?  I searched on:
           pick cherries california tourism
           and got a ton of stuff. --scotsman
        \_ http://www.brentwoodfruit.com or
            \_ I was told by a professor that brentwood is a great
               place to go do something like that, in fact he recommended
               it just as something to do for fun.
        \_ http://www.sfc.ucdavis.edu/agritourism/agritour.html
        \_ http://www.well.com/user/dmsml/coastways
2002/7/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:25263 Activity:high
7/2     Hillary votes in favor of using military force to free Americans
        held by ICC. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-344149,00.html
        \_ And?
           \_ And I'm shocked and horribly disappointed she would vote for
              this horrendous PR garbage.
        \_ I can't believe the article didn't call the act by the name
           given to it by some Europeans: The Netherlands Invasion Act.
        \_ "The idea that its some right-wing paranoid fear about the
           International Criminal Court (ICC) is not true."
           Sigh...  right wing has nothing to do with it.  Those who are
           against it in this country are those with the most to lose: the
           corporations committing human rights violations the world over
           and, by extension, the politicians who must back them to remain
           in power.  oh yeah, and the military by yet another extension
           of the corporate structure.
           \_Riiiiight.  Include in there the people who believe that giving the
             rest of the world the power to yank our chain whenever they like
             isn't a good idea.  Hell, when the UN can have a conference on
             racism that condemns Jews (not to mention the Jenin fiasco), it
             would be insane to give the current world forum any power, real or
             imaginary over the US.
             \_ "Condemns Jews"? Right. Any criticism of israel is anti-semitic.
2002/5/26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24948 Activity:moderate
5/25    The Devil and Mr. Hicks
        \_ The news in this story is what?  That as people grow wiser they see
           the folly in the leftist agenda?  Nothing new about that.
2002/5/24-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/BayArea] UID:24937 Activity:kinda low
5/24    Anyone knows a good place to play squash in San Jose area?
        \_ on a related note how about badminton in east bay/SF (excl fremont)
           \_ South San Francisco High School.  Mondays ~6:30pm.  -- yuen

        \_ how do people who wear glasses play sports such as
                badminton or squash -- contacts, special goggles, surgery?
2002/5/16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24846 Activity:high
5/16    what ever happened to the hp/compaq merger vote? was there
        there an outcome?
        \_ I think it passed.
           \_ so they've merged? there wasn't much news of it..
              \_ They've already talked about which lines of laptops are
                 staying and which are scrapped.  Forget which one is staying.
              \_ uh, what?  there's been plenty of news.  stop relying on the
                 motd as your primary news source.
        \_ Go to http://www.compaq.com
2002/5/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24840 Activity:very high
5/15    Grad student demograph-- grad student, 15% Asian, 51% White
        undergrad student, 40% Asian, 30% White. What accounts for this?
        \_ Undergrads: mostly from California; California is heavily Asian.
           Grads: from all over the US (and the world); less Asian.
                \_ I thought there are 10X more mainland Chinese and Indians
                   than the whites
                   \_ more important money make than degree earn.
                   \_ overall, of course, but not in American universities
                      (and I think 10x is too high a figure)
                         \-what would be interesting is to find a particular
                         dept where the ratios change a lot. might be
                         intersting to also consider household income of
                         ug vs. grad ... this might just be telling you there
                         are more wealthy white people --psb
        \_ Most Asians went to join the dot-com swing.
        \_ More drive to get a "good job" in Asian cultures than European ones.
           More relatives questioning why you need a PhD in History than
           getting a real job.
                \_ you implying that Asians just want money?
                  \_ I saw a marked prefererence for careers perceived as
                     guaranteeing security among my asian and asian-american
                     colleagues at UC Berkeley, more often than not. There
                     were many exceptions but that was the trend. I noticed
                     this, in particular, among nikkei.
                     \_ Probably the primary reason. Financial security is
                        very important to the first generations who didn't
                        have it. Once that is reached, I'll bet the gen.
                        after that has a much more liberal education.
                  \_ Poor people often do.
                     \_ Asians make more money than whites in California.
                        \_ untrue, irrelevant
                 You are wrong _/
                 And very relavent to the idea that Asians are poor or not.
                 \_this article just rambles. it's junk.
                   \_ Look it up in the census data then. I am not going to
                      hold your hand for you.
                   \_ Look it up in the census data then. Do I have to do
                      *everything* for you?
                \_ Yea but what about penis size...
                   \_ Little, yellow, different, better.
2002/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24732 Activity:high
5/7     "California: Surprise culprit in energy price rigging
        (the state itself!)"
        Doesn't get much better than this - VP Cheney must have
        have been using mind control.
        \_ Um..  sounds like idiots in the ISO trying to cover their collective
           ass.  I see nothing "politically" motivated here.  just dilbertism
           at its finest and most disgusting.
        \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/business/07ENRO.html
           And stop deleting this, coward.
                \_ Eh, the New York Times is nothing but a shill for the
                   Federal Government. See the Wen Ho Lee case.
                \_ No one is afraid of a NYT article on anything.  Save your
                   self the trouble.
                   \_ Because the only way the NYT will ever win your support
                      is if the staff is replaced with a bunch of uneducated
                      NRA-card-carrying Texans with a one-sided point of view,
2002/5/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:24712 Activity:high
5/4     Every nuclear weapon in the US arsenal was designed and tested by
        the UC.  Under the Bush Administration, how much more destruction
        will the UC manage?
          Wednesday, May 8 5-7 pm Upper Sproul Plaza
        Speakers: Andrew Page - N. California political director,
        California Peace Action Inez Sunwoo - student organizer,
        California Peace Action Tara Dorabji - community organizer,
        Tri-Valley CAREs (Communities Against a Radioactive Environment)
        and other speakers with special guests Drew Dellinger La Paz
        Veronica Black
          Sponsored by Student Peace Action Network, Stop the War
        Coalition, East Bay Peace Action
        *free event; wheelchair accessible for more info contact
        \_ Oh no! What do we do? Go back to the stoneage and gather food right?
           Dumbasses. Get your head out of your ass, you can't stop progress.
           Oh and by the by.. just FYI there has NEVER been an "arms"reduction
           treaty that reduces the number of WARHEADS, just the launchers. So I
           hope you sleep better knowing those numbers Bush is floating around
           of 1k-2k warheads just means operational launchers and warheads.
        \_ Stupid peacenik. If not for the "bomb" we'd all be speaking
           russian right now (at least those of us who weren't stuck in
           a siberian gulag).
           \_ "peacenik"... "we'd all be speaking russian right now"...
              The irony. -geordan
        \_ I can answer your question right now without all the idiotic
           propaganda.  Under the Bush administration, there will be just as
           much nuclear destruction managed by UC as under all previous
           administrations combined.  That is to say: none.  Perhaps you were
           too busy with your most recently acquired bowl to notice but there
           hasn't been any nuclear missiles launched on this planet.  Ever.
           The sum total destruction of all nuclear missiles on this planet is
           zero.  So, when can we hook up, share a bowl, go 420 and feel the
           good vibes we'll get from this teach-in?  I love a good teach-in.
           You know why?  Easy chicks.  Just go slack jawed and repeat all the
           crap they spew (just like ass kissing your profs) and you're in.  I
           wonder if Valerie Kao is a hottie, or maybe Tara or Veronica could
           use a good fucking.
           \_ why don't you ask her? her email is right there.  You up for
              it stud?
        \_ so, without attacking the assumption that we NEED to have nuclear
           weapons development and testing managed by someone, wouldn't it be
           better to have it be a more publicly accountable public institution
           like the UC than some shady defense contractor?  Whats so wrong
           with UC managing the development labs?
           \_ also, theres's alot of great basic research at lbl and llnl
              that gets done under the guise of weapons research.  i think
              your average congressman is dumb enough to believe that
              the ALS is somehow going to be used as a weapon one day.
              in reality, this basic research will lead to technology
              that will allow the American economy to be strong and to
              maintain our standard of living.  if calling it weapons research
              is the only way to get the morons in congress to pay for
              future American prosperity, so be it.
                 -physicist, and former lbl employee
2002/4/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:24635 Activity:kinda low
4/29    Gamble: Davis bets the state budget on his re-election
        "This time, they say, the budget hole will probably
        fall in the $20 billion to $22 billion range...
        The final damage is hard to estimate because Davis,
        instead of getting serious about scaling back state
        spending (which has swelled by 36 percent under his watch)..."
        \_ No one cares what you idiot inbreds think.
        \_ No one cares what Simple Simon and his inbred supporters
           think. Give it up.
           \_ This state needs a real leader.  Someone with vision.  Someone
              who cares.  A man like... Gray Davis.
        \_ Post the god damned original link not the freeper crap.
2002/4/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24605 Activity:nil
4/29    Work for http://EFF.org in SF as 'webmaster'.  $(30-35)k.  Make a few bucks
        with your religion.
2002/4/26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/Car] UID:24596 Activity:low
4/26    http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/04/26/obit.lopes/index.html
        Is there something about young soul divas in warm weather?
        \_ I think it's just something about young/stupid people with too
           much money and free time.
        \_ No-one else injured.  Interesting car accident.
           \_ Yeah it's a conspiracy to defeminise the Latina female!
2002/4/25 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24587 Activity:very high
4/24    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/25/MN186211.DTL
        Gubnor Davis talks about reparations for blacks, chinese and mexicans.
        Guess who didn't get a single word of mention but was treated *much*
        worse by this country?
        \_ I agree, Denis Leary has been oppressed for far too long.
        \_ This is a GREAT solution to the upcoming deficit he created with
           expensive power contracts.
        \_ Other Asians?
           \_ Think 'reservation' and not the 5 star kind.
              \_ Oh!  The native Americans, right?
        \_ If you are speaking of american indians, reparations in many many
           different shapes and forms are in process, or at least more than you
           might guess. The efforts still need lots of help, though. Check out
           California Indian Legal Services (http://www.calindian.org and the Native
           American Rights Fund (http://www.narf.org for two of the primary movers. A
           site for news is <DEAD>www.indianz.com<DEAD> They need money, lawyers and
           engineering support. This is closely related to what I do for a
           living. Ask if you want to know more. I'm currently
           helping out a newly "recognized" tribe that is being given land
           in trust in and around Death Valley. -- ulysses
           \_ What does any of this have to do with the displaced Native
              Americans all across this and other states?  Does any of this
              even remotely make up for entirely wiping out many tribes and
              killing millions of others and taking their land?
           \_ I've lost money at their casinos. Doesn't that count?
             \_ No.  Very little money from casinos goes to help the average
                Native American.  Most of it is concentrated in a few tiny
                tribes.  Most of the tribes in California were put in such
                incredibly barren and out of the way areas that a business of
                any sort is economically impossible.
             \_ Sure, as far as I'm concerned. After all, it is the casinos
                that are why Davis probably didn't mention the indians. He
                has been quite public in his efforts to limit the expansion
                of indian casinos. Nevada's gambling kingpins are getting
                ready to megafund a ballot initiative to all but strip the
                casinos completely from the indians. Stay tuned. -- ulysses
                \_ Yeah, this is good.  So the Mob is going to take another
                   shot at the casinos so Davis can bring in more taxes from
                   Mob run casinos after outlawing the Indian ones and this
                   is why he didn't mention the Native Americans?  Either
                   they're doing ok with casinos or they're not.  If they're
                   going to get stripped of even that much then they have
                   nothing.  Either way they should be mentioned and deserve
                   reparations as much as anyone.  By saying they have
                   casinos and therefore don't require reparations is like
                   saying it was ok to kill the Jews in Germany because today
                   they have Israel and are doing fine.  Doing ok or not today
                   has nothing to do with crimes committed in the past which
                   continue to this very day.
2002/4/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Tax] UID:24565 Activity:moderate
4/24    How long does it normally take for the government to deposit a check
        for taxes due that was sent with a tax return on 4/15?
        \_ 7 (CA) / 8 (Fed) days after mailing in my case.
           \_ How about refunds?
              \_ 6-8 weeks for a check, a little faster for direct deposit.
2002/4/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:24534 Activity:high
4/22    Gas explosion on Milvia this morning. Check the news. There's choppers
        hovering. I count three from my office.
        \_ Hardly the first time there was a gas explosion in Berkeley. Are
           they news-whore copters or police copters?  News-whore copters
           aren't interesting but the police might be.
           \_ I'm a couple of miles away but I'm guessing the former.
        \_ That's no moon.
           \_ This isn't a cave!
        \_ URL: http://www.sfgate.com/news/baycitynews
2002/4/12 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24425 Activity:high
4/11    Say you move this year, how do you tell IRS that you've moved?
        \_ There is a form that you can fill out, which for the life of me I
           can't remember the number, but it's on http://www.irs.gov
           There is also one you can fill out for California FTB, assuming you
           live in California. (http://www.ftb.ca.gov The Change of Address
           for DMV is also on their website (<DEAD>dmv.ca.gov<DEAD> Too bad
           none of them are online forms; you print, you fill out, you
        \_ You don't.  Hide your money on some island and pray they disband
           the IRS this year.
2002/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24303 Activity:nil
4/3     I heard that CA has anti-spam law.  Has anyone ever been charged
        with violating that law?
        \_ http://www.timothywalton.com/fergusonvfriendfinders.html
2002/3/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:24274 Activity:high
3/30    Liberal - a euphemism for vote buying.
        \_ I object to the misuse of the word 'liberal' which traditionally
           has meant "open minded".  If you mean Left or Democrat or Socialist
           or whatever, just say so.  Waitress at the Oakland Zachary's with
           the shortish blue hair has a great set.  Just thought you should
           \_ I think he means "liberal" in the political meaning.  That
              started out as "more willing to spend money" and has lately
              come to mean very little.  Contrast "conservative" that
              started out as "less willing to spend money" but now means
              something like "Jingoism".  I can't get to Zach's anymore
              but the Mountain View Hobbee's has a couple lookers.
           \_ Then go ask her out.
              \_ Just because shes got doesnt mean need to ask her out.
                 Anyways I've felt what she's got and not OP.
2002/3/29 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24270 Activity:high
3/28    We need higher taxes and an open border.
        "..the U.S. spent $430 billion last year on total welfare assistance
         $5,300 per taxpayer"
        "In 2000, 26.7 percent of immigrants in California received welfare
        And guess who the recipients vote for.
2002/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/SIG, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24158 Activity:high
3/19    Can somebody post some decent analysis of McCain's finance reform
        bill?Every article I read mentions loopholes, but what are they?
        \_ McCain's finance reform is meant to sink the NRA.
           \_ Corps will give soft money to non-party groups and unions,
              who will runs ads instead of the parties. And the
              unconstitutional ad ban will be overturned by the supremes.
              OR individuals can still give money to candidates, so if they
              lower the limit to $1 (though CFR raises to $5000), the CEO of
              BigOil who gave pol a dollar was still trying to by his vote
              and created "an appearance of impropriety." CFR is like
              trying to ban politics, cuz it's all in the eye of the spinner.
              But CFR should pass because it's reform and better than letting
              McConnell, et al. win. -republican for gov't financed elections
              \_ Government financed elections?  Hardly.  Who says who
                 qualifies for the millions of dollars it takes to get the
                 word out?  People with enough support?  How do you register
                 that support?  Petitions?  That costs money.  By not letting
                 the public participate in elections, it would be even harder
                 for a non-incumbent to get name recognition.  The last thing
                 we need is government financed elections.  What a nightmare.
                 -republican in favor of smaller government and 1st amendment
2002/3/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:24115 Activity:very high
3/14    All hail Governor Davis!!!
        \_ Yeah, the only problem is, Simon is a right wing nutcase.
           Congratulations Republicans, you elected the only guy who
           could possibly make Davis look good.
           \_ One day you leftiest will figure out your worldview is not the
              only possible valid choice.  Then again maybe not, then you
              wouldn't be lefties.
              \_ You will lose, nonetheless. You can believe that aliens
                 in Black Helicopters control your brain, for all I care.
                 Just don't expect to be elected governor in a democracy.
           \_ in what way is he a right-wing nutcase?
              are you saying he is a right-wing nutcase compared to
              Ronald Reagan or Dan Lundgren?
              \_ A Director of the Heritage Foundation? You gotta be kidding.
                 I am sure they love him in Orange County, but I bet you
                 a beer he loses by at least 10 points.
                 \_ A beer on a 10 point spread?  No shit Sherlock, there are
                    10 points more Dems than Reps in CA.  Duh.
                 \_ actually, i was just asking, not disagreeing, i no
                    longer live in ca.
                    \_ Okay, he is anti-abortion, pro-voucher, favors
                       deregulation, anti-gun control, anti gay rights.
                       A lot like Lundgren, come to think of it,
                       who lost by 20 points, if you don't remember.
                        \_ 1) Exactly why should people be given
                           preferential govt treatment based on their
                           behavoir in the bedroom?  2) AIDS is a
                           complete scam.  It is 100% preventable,
                           but irresponsible homosexuals want tax
                           payers to bail them out for
                           incontinent behavoir.  This is common
                           \_ No, they just want equal rights.
                                \_ They already have equal rights.
                                   \_ The right to marraige?
                                      \_ Gays have the right to marry someone
                                         of the opposite sex.  This is the
                                         exact same right straight people
                                         have.  I see no inequality issue.
                                         \_ They do not have the right you
                                           enjoy to marry the person they
                                           love.  If you don't understand this
                                           then you are either stupid or
                                           trying to deprive them of rights,
                                           or a troll.
                        \_ The 2nd amendment is the ONLY guarantor
                           of the Constitution.  How blind can
                           you be to not see this.
                           And we all know how effective gun control is.
                           \_ Gun control is very effective.  I control my
                              guns very well.  I've yet to shoot an innocent
                              or allow a child to gain control of my weapon.
2002/3/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24114 Activity:very high
3/14    What's the deal with these prize drawings?  The rules always say
        no purchase necessary but in order to win stuff from say
        Snapple, you have to buy a freaking Snapple and see if you got
        the winning cap.
        \_ not always true.  there was a coke contest like this where you could
           tell by holding up the bottle and looking.  i got free sodas
           for a year.  you just buy the soda with the winning ticket from
            the last soda and all you have to pay is bottle deposit
            which you get back.
            \_ And taxes, of course...
        \_ In the fine print on all these things you can mail the company for
           an entry.  Go buy a snapple you cheap bastard.
        \_ Do people actually have a chance to win? I know there was the case
           with McDonald's where they rigged it so friends of the producers
           of their monopoly game won. I alawys wonder if you can win the
        \_ BTW, why does tne law require "no purchase necessary" for all
           cars in display at malls.
           \_ Probably not. They never tell you when they are going to
              give those cars away, do they? Haven't really tracked the
              ugly scam on this one besides the normal address and phone
              number crap.
        \_ BTW, why does the law require "no purchase necessary" for all
           drawings?  What's wrong with a company running a drawing that
           requires purchases so as to boost its sales?
                \_ because it technically becomes gambling when you require
                   a purchase
                   \_ Correct. It becomes a lottery. The "no purchase
                      necessary" means it's a "giveaway."
2002/3/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:24102 Activity:moderate
3/13    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/13/international/13CND-ZIMB.html
        oh, the irony:
        In Washington, a statement by Secretary Powell said "Mugabe can
        claim victory but not democratic legitimacy."
        \_ What's the irony in that?
           \_ The touchy feely gore lover who posted this believes that
              bush and co did not win the election in a democratic way
              because they didn't let "every vote be counted" and had
              a bunch of cronies in the sc rule in thier favor.
              \_ Oh.  Is this that nonsense about stealing the election even
                 though no matter how they counted and recounted it afterwards
                 the best they could do was a three (3) vote win for Gore
                 under some extremely unlikely and bizarre circumstances?  You
                 mean that election where every vote got counted so many times
                 the chad was falling out of ballots all over the floor and
                 tables?  Thanks.  Now I know.
2002/3/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24059 Activity:moderate
3/7     I was looking through the republican primary votes for governor
        by company.  I noticed 0 votes for any republican in Santa Cruz
           \_ county?
        County.  Is this possible?
        \_ Do you know you are not allowed to vote republican in SC?
        \_ Don't you know you are not allowed to vote republican in SC?
        \_ The paper also said our new mayor was elected councilman and ignored
           our council race so take it all with a grain of salt.  It's only the
2002/3/5-6 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24030 Activity:very high
3/5     http://penguinppc.org/~hollis/personal/bergeron.shtml
        HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
        \_ What the fuck?  Is this supposed to make me vote Republican?
           Give me a fucking break.
           \_ No, moron.  It's a classic work of literature.  This is one of
              those great free-beer things the net has to offer which I'm
              sharing with your stupid ignorant empty headed addled low-browed
              self.  There's nothing in there about Republicans.  So stupid,
              so blind, so young....
              \_ go fuck yourself.
                 \_ *laugh* well you sure showed me wrong about you!
                    \_ go fuck yourself.
                       \_ ouch, now _that_ hurts my feelings.  gosh, can't we
                          just all get along?
        \_ I read that in a high school reader.  It was before I had read
           Slaughterhouse 5, and before I had any idea that Kurt Vonnegut
           was a name to remember.  Thanks.
                \_ is Slaughterhouse 5 a good read?
                   \_ yes.
        \_ This reads like a cheap Ayn Rand imitation, and that's not a
           very high standard.  I hope this was a draft and Vonnegut had
           planned to turn it into a real novel some day.
           \_ My silly friend, you are not in a position to critique Vonnegut,
              or state what a 'real' novel is.  Rather than trying to put down
              Vonnegut's work, which will not get the attention of most people,
              why not accept the fact that intelligent people like Vonnegut
              have politics that disagree with your own?
              \_ QUIT making strawmen.  I have no beef with his politics.
                 I just hate when people try to pass off hyperbole as theme.
                 This is like 4th grade writing.  Why not just write an
                 essay complaining about affirmative action or talk about
                 life in socialist countries?  More effective and less tongue
                 in cheek.
                 \_ What I am trying to say is that this ISN'T 4th grade
                    writing.  You didn't write like this in 4th grade, and
                    neither did I.  Good writing is difficult, and this was
                    good writing, even if the subject matter rubs you the
                    wrong way.
                    \_ This story was terrible. It reads as if it was
                       written by a student in 9th grade english class.
                       The basic idea is fine, but the treatment very
             \_ He knows how to read that makes him just as valid a critic
                as anyone else.
        \_ It's just a short story.  I don't know if there's a novel in
           there.  It makes its point fairly well, and succinctly.
        \_ When it's convenient for me to feel fatalistic, I like to read
           _Sirens of Titan_.
2002/3/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:24029 Activity:very high 66%like:23990
3/5     VOTE!
        \_ Does it really make a difference if a few people here and
           there don't vote?
           \_ have you been asleep since 2000?
              \_ It's called sarcasm.
           \_ Every felon and illegal alien must vote or their rights will be
              trampled upon!  They might be put in prison or kicked out of the
              country!  They should vote and vote and vote some more!  Like
              a few places where Gore got %106 of the registered voters!  Now
              *that* is true democracy in action!
              \_ Don't you know, when you vote democrat its democracy in
                 \_ You lame-asses think you're funny but you're not.
                    Something like 30% of black people in Florida can't
                    vote because of left-over policies from post-Civil War
                    preventing convicted criminals from voting. You think
                    that would've swayed the election?
                    \_ Bullshit.  There are states all over this nation that
                       don't allow felons to vote.  If you can't get it right
                       don't come here and fucking LIE.  It has nothing to do
                       with being black or the civil war, you twit.  It has to
                       do with voting being a right of full citizenship and
                       a convicted felon is someone who has chosen to give up
                       some of those rights which also include things like
                       freedom of movement.  Take the hint, race baiter.
                       \_ Your ignorance is sadenning and your bitterness
                          indicative of the fact that you'd rather not talk
                          about real issues. Who is baiting whom?
                          You are right that Florida is not the only state
                          to ban felons from voting-- there something like
                          12 (mainly southern... read racist) states that
                          still uphold this practice. Florida was mentioned
                          because this was one instance were the 30% of
                          inelligible blacks would most definately have made a
                          difference. It is common knowledge that Republicans
                          want less people to vote because it helps them
                          win... and this is just another way to acheive that.
                          ... and to say that it is not a race issue, all you
                          have to do is look at who is convicted of more
                          felonies in this country.
                          \_ Why should convicted felons be allowed to vote?
                             Do you really think that society would be better
                             if we let convicted criminals influence the
                             electoral process?
                             And of all those black people who were convicted
                             of a felony, do you really believe that the vast
                             majority of them were false convictions?
                             \_ We let them out of jail didn't we? Noone is
                                talking about letting inmates vote. But isn't
                                the point of a prison sentence to serve time
                                and return to society? Being a member of
                                society means being represented... which
                                means you should have the right to vote.
                                \_ Like having the right to vote against
                                   laws that will put you behind bars for
                                   doing the same shit that landed you in
                                   prison the first time? Hmm.
                                   \_ cute.
                              \_ in regards to the 2nd point, no, clearly
                                 the vast majority are not "false
                                 convictions." However, (1) post Civil War
                                 when these felon disenfranchisment laws
                                 were made, in many southern states,
                                 felonies were extended to many many things
                                 including such things as "loitering",
                                 allowing the laws to be unevenly enforced
                                 by racist law enforcement. Many of these
                                 laws (like the disenfranchisement) are
                                 still on the books. (2) You need to
                                 consider the bigger picture. I'm not
                                 saying, "blacks are always falsely
                                 convicted of felonies." I'm saying "Why
                                 are blacks convicted of so many felonies?"
                                   \_ Blacks are convicted of so many felonies
                                      because blacks commit many felonies?
                                      Is it politically incorrect to state
                                      the obvious?
                                      \_ Divide society into several groups.
                                         Now say that in each group, the
                                         number of people who commit crimes
                                         is epsilon. It seems that epsilon
                                         is about the same for all groups
                                         except blacks. And he wants to know
                                         why. It is a legitimate question.
                                   \_ Granted there are many such laws on
                                      the books, but do you really think that
                                      someone is going to get convicted of
                                      a felony loitering if all he was doing
                                      was loitering? I see nothing wrong with
                                      convicting a person for felony loitering
                                      if he was also guilty of some other
                                      serious crime for which there was
                                      insufficient evidence. Its like putting
                                      capone away for tax evasion.
                                      As far as the "why blacks are convicted"
                                      bit, maybe they are convicted because
                                      they commit more crimes? I don't buy
                                      the bs that society programmed them to
                                      do this sort of thing. Do unto others
                                      isn't all that hard to understand.
                                      \_ In response to above two posts...
                                         fine then... you are just creating
                                         another level of indirection. The
                                         question then simply becomes "Why
                                         do blacks commit so many more
                                         This thread has become long and
                                         unwieldy... perhaps we should take
                                         it off the motd.       - rory
                                         \_ It's alright to say it.
                                            \_ huh?
                                               \_ The obvious answer to "why
                                                  blacks commit more crimes."
                                                  \_ oh right... yeah, this
                                                     is generally the point
                                                     in the discussion where
                                                     people go, "shit, I
                                                     should go join the KKK
                                                     or shut-up."
                                                     (notice the replies
                                                     dried up)
                \_ i'm sure statistically it didn't matter that much
                   but Florida was one of two states that hired
                   a private company to go through voter rolls, find felons
                   and mail them that they couldn't vote.  yes this was legal,
                   but in several cases, they were wrong, picked people
                   who had the legal right to vote, and they showed
                   up at the polling place and told they couldn't vote.
                   imagine if you were told you could not longer vote, you
                   didn't vote, then you find out later it was all a mistake?
                   i'd be incredibly pissed.  salon did several articles on
                   this. - danh [motd format daemon]
                   \_ Or imagine you're in the military and your perfectly
                      ballot delivered in a perfectly legal and timely manner
                      was thrown away by an elections official?  You voted,
                      you voted legally, you were legally entitled to vote,
                      your ballot arrived on time, and then your ballot was
                      tossed out.  Salon did not do several articles on this.
                           \_ Maybe because it didn't happen.
                              \_ It happened in several south florida
                                 counties but was under reported.
2002/2/24 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23962 Activity:high
2/23     How Can We Fix Our Public Schools? By Making Them Private
        \_ 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it'
        \_ By going back to the 3 R's and removing politics from the school
        \_ Critical flaw in this argument: He's claiming that private schools
           are somehow magically better than public schools.  I attended both
           public & private in 3 states in my K-12 years.  My private school
           education was simply "not as bad" as my public school education.
           My parents and their parents received a *vastly* superior education
           in public schools in their day.  Have you seen the credential test
           for CA teachers?  It's supposed to be a 10th grade level test and
           something like 30% fail it the first time. (sorry, no URL on that).
           Teaching has become the place for the bottom end of the previous
           generation of ill educated dim wits to go since they can't do
           anything else.  Break the teacher's unions, dump all the losers,
           raise standards so maybe someone teaching 11th and 12th grade needs
           to pass a college level exam, not a 10th grade exam, and then pay
           them a real salary but make them accountable so shitty teachers get
           dumped instead of settling down into the system, ruining a few
           dozen students every year until they pension out.
                \_ Not if the teachers unions have anything to say about it!
2002/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23829 Activity:very high
2/09    Grey Davis bad [summarized for you by your helpful motd edtior]
        \_ why don't you put this on your homepage and link to it on the
           motd? it's probably just going to get deleted otherwise.
        \_ wtf is this? no offence but whos gonna take the time to read
           \_ LA Times- hard copy, and I am sure if republicans were in
              charge they would have screwed up as well, my main thing is I
              don't really think one is better or worse than the other, they
              are all evil
        \_ vote for Bill Simon!
        \_ The political philosophy of conservatives IS better.  Unfortunately
           no true conservatives can get elected today.  Only pseudo
           socialists who want pervasive government presense in
           every aspect of your life.
        \_ Voting is an exercise of picking the person whom you hate the least.
           It's getting ever so hard to pick one because I hate them all.
2002/1/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23708 Activity:high
1/29    Conservatives are at it again! Now they are trying to stop
        the nuggets ad for "promoting bestiality"!
        \_ "as UPC, other animal advocacy groups, and many California and
           non-California residents have requested."  Yeah all those vicious
           conspiracy prone animal advocacy right winger nut jobs who think
           the commercial is about gang raping chickens.  Next time I'll have
           to show solidarity with our poultry friends by voting democrat so
           they'll know I stand by them.  Poultry rape is no laughing matter!
           And oh my god... here's their website: http://www.upc-online.org
           Someone please tell me this is a joke.
           \_ wouldn't this group be considered liberal?
           \_ http://www.osi.org
2002/1/13 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23551 Activity:nil
1/12    northern california is weird.  why do you people rathre speak to
        each other online in chat rooms or email, instead ot phoning each
        other up?  Or better yet, seeing each other?
        \_ how is it a northern california thing?  are you sure it's not just
           a geek thing?
2001/12/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:23418 Activity:nil
12/30   "Both Reno and O'Donnell, a foster parent, said they
        shared a commitment to helping children."
        Like the ones burned to death in Waco and Elian?
        \_ As bad as I think Reno was for the country at least she isn't the
           total nutjob that O'Donnell is.  As long as Rosie keeps to her
           self-ego boosting magazine and bad TV we're safe.
2001/12/31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:23410 Activity:very high
12/30   The idiocy of the SDI thread is here the assumption that our
        enemies will be using missiles.  Class dismissed.
        \_ Right, and thats why the Russians had 10,000 nuclear
           missiles?  I nominate you for Secretary of Defence.
        \_ That, and a startling 50% success rate at shooting down missiles
           when we know where they're coming from, where they're headed, and
           when they've been launched....  --erikred
           \_ It's okay to "experiment" with the Great Society and entitlement
              programs until the end of time, but a horrendously technically
              complex proposition like NMD has to work its first time out of
              the box, skipping right over the "development" and "testing"
              \_ As for the first, nice troll, and as for the second, it
                 makes sense to expect a workable demonstration of the
                 prototype before one invests the billions intended. A 50%
                 success rate does not make the grade. --erikred
              \_ Can't we just give the tax money directly to the
                 Republican party donors and skip the pretense?
                 \_ I believe that's the stage we're in now, isn't it?  Do you
                    see any large scale deployment or production?
        \_ Right, and thats why the Russians had 30,000 nuclear
           warheads?  I nominate you for Secretary of Defence.
        \_ Yes the enemy could use other things to kill people as well so we
           shouldn't defend against this one thing at all.  Makes sense.  You
           win the Big Doofus Blue Ribbon.  Sober drivers kill people with
           bad driving every single day!  Stop the anti-drunk-driving campaign
           now!  We're wasting our time on drunk drivers when sober drivers
           are killing our children!  Do it for the children!  You're an
           idiot unworthy of the Troll Cookie Award.
           \_ too dumb to get the point.  Our enemies will deliver a bomb
              along with all the bales of smuggled pot.  Or a boat or a plane.
              Not a missle, for which SDI has limited applications (non cruise)
              \_ So you're in touch with the inner workings of the North Korean
                 government?  Have you let our government in on your deep
                 access to this incredibly valuable and secret information?
                 You also know the same about the Iraqi, Iranian, and Chinese
                 governments?  They're all smuggling bombs in to the US via
                 pot bales?  There's a job waiting for you in the CIA.
2001/12/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23382 Activity:moderate
12/26   Can somebody tell me if there are regions in CA that get all four
        seasons?  Meaning snow in winter, hot in summer, etc.  The Lake Tahoe
        area is like that.  I'm looking for more.  How about north in Eureka?
        Or further south?  Thanks.
        \_ fuck you. go read an almanac.
        \_ Mt. Shasta
           \_ More generally, any mountainous region. In SoCal, places
              like Big Bear, Arrowhead, and Julian. You will not get snow
              in California except at high elevations. --dim
2001/12/27 [Finance/Banking, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23375 Activity:nil
12/26   Which bank (other than Washington Mutual) is offer basic checking
        account with no or low balance requirement in CA?  ($500 is all
        I have left.)
2001/12/23 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23356 Activity:high
12/22   "one out of two babies born in california is brown."-ucla
        \_ How racist.
           \_ The truth is not racist. It is just the truth.
2001/12/8 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign] UID:23183 Activity:nil
12/7    Why isn't America on Palestine's side?  If Mexico annexed California,
        and forced us all to live in, say, Sacramento,  we'd be pissed as hell.
        And why do Jews need to have their own country?  Do Christians need
        their own country?  Do white people need their own country?
        \_ BTW, white people already have many of their own countries in
2001/11/26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:23108 Activity:nil
11/26   "Human Embryo Reportedly Cloned for Cells"
2001/11/22 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/Religion] UID:23080 Activity:high
11/22   To whoever was asking about what happened to the israeli
        teenagers who were in the US illegally and they got picked
        up by the FBI after they were seen taking photos of themselves
        with the wtc burning in the background, they're still
        in jail without bail or access to outside communication,
        \_ Thanks for the boost to my cynicism.  Let's vote these bastards
           out and vote new ones in.
                \_ I'm all for new bastards.
        \_ URL please?  I thought this was a rumor created by left-wing
           Muslim fundamentalist Arabic anti-semites.
           \_ No, it is a rumor created by right-wing Christian fundamentalist
              American anti-semites. Keep your religious fanatics straight!
        \_ I read that they were released after a week or so.  No URL, sorry.
2001/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23059 Activity:high
11/15   It's official. SAT scores != U.C.
        \_ Does that mean a 4.0 at Oakland High will have a better chance than
           a 3.5 at Lowell, all others being equal?  (I didn't attend either
           \_ What's wrong with that?
              \_ Because any crackhead who shows up most days and doesn't
                 kill too many people can get a 4.0 at OHS?
        \_ Ah, American Education: The great equalizer.
           Let's make _everyone_ dumb!
2001/11/15 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:23042 Activity:very high
11/14   Is there a word that describes a body/corporation/government which
        claims to abide by the laws but sets the laws and its interpretations
        \_ Lawful evil.
        \_ We call it a 'church'.
           \_ Yes, in the Temple of the Supreme Court
              \_ Yeah, down with the system, man!
              \_ move along, there's nothing to see here, your man lost by
                 every counting method on the table, get over it.
                \_ not to beat a dead horse, ok fine, read this:
                   http://slate.msn.com//?id=2058603 - danh
                   \_ Big yawn.  The whole Florida election was chock full of
                      votes that probably should have been counted but weren't
                      and votes that were counted but shouldn't have.  You
                      can't pick and choose which piles of valid/invalid votes
                      you'd like to include and ignore all others and then say
                      "my guy won!".
                \_ yes, and i'm still bitter the most powerful man in the
                   world got elected by statistical margin of error,
                   and i don't think anything can happen that will change
                   this, no matter how many "SORE LOSERMAN" t shirts
                   you throw at me.
                      \_ But that is what Bush did! Face it man, that election
                         was well within the standard of error. Bush was
                         elected by mistake. Literally.
                         \_ and if Gore got elected it would have been outside
                            the margin of error?  be realistic.  it was a close
                            race, and whoever came out ahead would have had a
                            statistically insignificant lead.  If Gore had won,
                            that would have been a mistake too.  Who cares.
                            it's over.
                \_ Gore is liar and an ego-maniac.  Contrary to the media's
                   best caricature, he is not intellectual - he's
                   a pro big-government, pro-tax bureaucrat.  Just look
                   at his policy initiatives as VP - they were disasters.
                   BTW, try to formulate an opinion apart from
                   parroting the mass media.  Why are people in general
                   so inclined to align themselves with graduates of
                   journalism school - as if that is a credential to do
                   anything whatsoever.
        \_ politburo
           \_ that's paolitburo
              \_ paoloburrito
2001/11/14 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:23034 Activity:nil
11/13   Don't forget to vote,
        \_ how should I vote?           - graduating in may
2001/11/12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/Airplane] UID:23008 Activity:very high
11/12   Okay, I didn't make this up. I've been seeing low level flying jets
        (looks like those fighter jets) since this morning. What's going on?
        \_ See the thread on NYC plane crash below.
        \_ Amazing how you can spot possible military craft but entirely miss
           270+ people dying in a crash.  All over the news.
        \_ I don't see how jets can prevent airplanes that are taking off
           from crashing into dense city.
           \_ They can't but they can prevent an airplane from flying from
              NYC to DC and blowing up something.  There's no one big cure-all
              fix to life.
        \_ There was a medium-sized bomber-type airplane flying around
           Berkeley yesterday afternoon.  It was flanked by two helicopter
           gunships, and the bomber was dragging two refueler-type cables,
           one from each wing, with a cone-shaped object at the end
           \_ Article in sfgate:
2001/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23001 Activity:very high
11/10   BBC reports bin laden admits 9/11 bombings. threatens to use
        nuclear device or chemical weapons on silicon valley 11/13
        \_ in the 1950's poeple observed that one good aspect of
           sprawl is it's resistance to nuclear attack.  If you
           look at kill radii of different nuclear weapons and look
           at a map of silicon vally, you will see that they could
           only make the smallest of dents, at least in the short term.
        \_ why the hell would they blow up silicon valley. We don't even
           supply weapons. LA (Boeing, Lockheed, Loral, Rockwell, etc)
           should be one that deserves to be blown up, not us.
                \_ Lots of military contractors in the Valley, plus it's
                   the center of recent American capitalism
           \_ and how were the WTC towers military targets?
           \_ sorry, he said california, not specifically sv
        \_ URL?
           \_ Can't find it on bbc or cnn.  Silicon Valley has an
              overinflated sense of importance.
              \_ That may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that BL sp
                 threatened to nuke/gas SV "if the US does it first".
                 I've found a couple articles on ABC that mention it, and
                 a detailed article on CNN.  It's not that hard to find.
                 \_ where does bin laden ever claim responsibility for the
                    9/11 attacks?
                    \_ STFW
                       \_ I did STFW, and the latest piece of news I saw on the
                          subject was a recent interview where he, yet again,
                          denies any involvement.
                          \_ Indeed. He denies involvement and we have
                             produced no evidence of it. Trust the
                             government, they know what is best for you.
                             \_ Nah, I d rather trust some muslim nutcase.
                 \_ url???
2001/10/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Reference/BayArea] UID:22872 Activity:insanely high
10/30   I have a lot of pennies, and although they are non-ass,
        I would like to exchange them for a more socially acceptable
        form of money.  Are there any specific locations with those
        mythical money changing machines that will accept a huge
        collection of coins and (while taking a percentage) return
        useful change?  In Berkeley?  In the Bay Area?  Thanks.
        \_ I have heard that the wieght of the zinc in a penny is
           worth more than one penny.  i'm not sure if this is true.
           check the price of zinc, and weigh a penny, and melt
           them down to be sold as scrap.  this is illegal, though.
                \_ a get rich quick scheme
                   debasing legal tender
                   zinc worth more than cash
           \_ But isn't there something else other than zinc that gives it the
              bronze color?  How do you get rid of that?
              \_ http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/index.cfm?action=coin_specifications
                 Copper, of course.
           \_ The penny continues to be legal tender solely becauswe of the
              mining lobby.
              \_ How else do you pay for a 99-cent item without tax?
        \_ The Safeway on Solano near Santa Fe has a machine; commission is
           something like 15-20%.  --pld
                \_ If it's a Coinstar machine, it only takes 8.9 cents
                   per dollar. And it's fun to use!
                   \_ link:www.coinstar.com for locations.
        \_ AC Transit machines count pennies.
        \_ I'd just keep on using them whenever I go shopping.
        \_ The Cala Foods at Hyde and California has one. -ausman
        \_ The parking meters in San Mateo accept them. heh.
           \_ but do they accept dimes? that's where the fun starts
        \_ Why not take them to the bank? They'll make you roll them first,
           but they'll take them. I just exchanged $2.00 in pennies that
           way. --dim
           \_ Do they actually check what you put in the roll between the
              first and the last pennies?
                \_ My bank did.  It's a bank.  They do money.  They only do
                   money.  They've been doing nothing but money for 100+ years
                   since before you were born.  What are the odds you're going
                   to pull a fast one and get away with it?
2001/10/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22849 Activity:high
10/26   "How do I make people nervous?" I asked.
        "By doing whatever you're doing."
        "What am I doing?"
        "I don't know, but whatever it is, you're going to stop doing it!"
        One reporters brush with The War on Terrorism:
        \_ Sitting around in a yoga position with your eyes closed with
           cops all around you makes people nervous.
           \_ They had already detained him, forced him to erase his
                pictures and confiscated his pen(!) before that happened.
                Nice try, though.
2001/10/26 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:22847 Activity:nil
10/16   "I don't know what it is you are doing, but you are going to
        stop doing it!"
2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22502 Activity:nil
9/18    http://wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46771,00.html
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:22479 Activity:high
9/15    Where do I start for shopping for a good certificate of deposit
        \_ http://www.patelco.org
        \_ http://www.bankrate.com
        \_ I just got one from CalState9 CU right down on Shattuck and the
           rate was better than any other I could reasonably get elsewhere.
           ...scratch that. http://bankrate.com found a better one (4.27AP)
           from an online bank. Oh well. CalState9 is still better than all
           but the top three available in California (4.11 APR).
2001/8/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:22213 Activity:high
8/22    There's a law in New York that prohibits selling tickets at over 20%
        of their face value. I live in CA and want to sell my extra tickets to
        a NY event over the internet. Is it illegal for me to sell them for
        more than %20 or does the law not apply to me because i'm not selling
        the tickets in NY?
        \_ Sounds like a Federal case to me. Don't worry about it though,
           unless you are making tons of money off of it, no one will care.
           Legal advice is worth what you pay for it!
           \_ It's a local issue. The Seattle Mariners allows ticket holders
              to scalp on their web site as long as they don't live within
              the Seattle area (where it is illegal to charge over face
              value for them). You're fine.
        \_ it's illegal to charge 120%  AT THE EVENT. In most places.
           But youd better do your research for each state you plan
            selling them in.
        \_ Tricky. It can be claimed that you will sell it to only someone who
           go to NY. Thus NY can claim personal jurisdiction. The problem is
           that the event is in NY!! IANAL.             - sagarwal
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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