Politics Domestic 911 - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Politics:Domestic:911:
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2018/12/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/11/27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35089 Activity:nil
11/27   http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/11/27/bush-plot/index.html
        Cheney almost became the President. The rebels DO hate America!!!
        \_ A.. D'uh
2004/11/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35057 Activity:nil
11/24   Hmm.  Reports that the Russian military is being used against the
        Ukrainian protesters.  Intereeeesting.
        \_ The Russian Army.  It checks in, but it don't never leave.
        \_ With Putin appointing the governors these days, how long until
           Ukraine rejoins the Russian Federation?  In Russia, Russia
           federates you!
2004/11/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34885 Activity:low
11/14   Bin Laden given "religious approval" to use nukes against the US:
        What will the West do if bin Laden vaporized the Pentagon and a good
        chunk of DC?:
        1) Nuke all Muslim countries with ties to terrorism (Saudi Arabia,
        Syria, Pakistan, etc.)
        2) Tactical nuking of terrorists locations
        3) Conventional war invading above countries
        4) Give up
        \_ this is CBS news, it is for the liberals and is as convincing
           and as credible as the ultra conservative Fox news.
        \_ DEAR BIN LADEN, please don't bomb the Blue States! We didn't vote
           for Bush. If you must bomb, please bomb those blood sucking Red
           States, like Texas or Alamaba. Thanks.
                \_ funny is the democrats believe this plea will work.
                   \_ Dear conservative, you are a blithering idiot if you
                      believe this.  Have a nice day.    -moderate
        \_ If all it takes to get "religious approval" is to have one
           cleric say ok, I doubt that Bin Laden ever actually saw this
           as a problem.
2004/11/14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:34881 Activity:nil
11/14   Bin Laden given "religious approval" to use nukes against the US:
        Thanks, Saudi religious person!
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34850 Activity:very high 61%like:34847
11/11   Here's one for the Arafat trolls to chew on for a while:
        http://tinyurl.com/4sljz (boston.com)
        \_ Hell NO! We won't think!
        \_ You are right. It was so much easier when the Palestinians
           peacefully accepted their ethnic cleansing. I hate that bastard
           for daring to fight back.
           \_ Wow.  Revisionist history makes yet another appearance on the
              \_ What's revisionist about it?
                 \_ Um, 'ethnic cleansing'?
                    \_ The Palestinians just all left their own homes
                       and farms on their own accord? Right-o.
        \_ What's to chew on? Palestinians have used terrorism. Is this news?
           Shall we chew on that while ignoring Israeli occupation? How does
           that make sense?
        \_ wait a minute, so suicide bombing is evil, but killing civilans
           blindly using American donated Apache gunship, missiles,
           and tanks is perfectly ok?                   -peacenik
           \_ I think there's a substantial difference between thugs that
              TARGET civillians with carbombs and suicide bombers and
              beheadings as a tactic to control the people vs trying to
              kill the people that are doing this TO THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN
              (mostly, anyhow).  The US is doing everything it can to
              minimize civillian deaths, but the remorseless insurgents
              must be eliminated.  I suspect that if the US just ... left
              ... that the people stepping forward to fill the vacuum would
              create a legacy hideous beyond describing.  It's rather sad
              that someone getting a Berkeley education would need this
              explained to them.  If you think the use of these weapons is
              blind, then honestly, you're saying you can't tell the
              difference between random violence against innocents and
              violence targeted against inherently violent people that have
              no respect for life.
              \_ in war, there's no such a thing as good civilians vs. evil
                 militants. The militants are the civilians, and at times
                 the civilians are the militants. The civilians give birth
                 for new militants, and they feed and shelter
                 each other, period. And by the way there's no such a
                 thing as Berkeley educated people having homogeneous
                 opinions, and in fact, not everyone on motd is educated
                 let along having a Berkeley degree. The idea that the
                 world is so black and white, is so Bush.
                 \_ Holy shit, you've missed the point so completely it makes
                    my teeth ache!  The point is a matter of intent b/t the
                    US military vs the intent of the terrorists.  Likening
                    them is dumb.  Jesus H Christ, are you even posting in the
                    correct thread?  I'm honestly baffled.
                 \_ It's not entirely binary, but there really are normal
                    civilians and thugs.  Civilians mostly just want to be
                    left alone.  Thugs terrorize them into giving them shelter,
                    etc.  You = m0r0n (the dangerous moral relativist kind)
                    \_ Come on, don't be so harsh.  Where would this world
                       be without Lenin's "useful idiots?"
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34838 Activity:high
11/11   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/10/01247/557
        Excellent discussion of the reality of Bin Laden and where we're headed.
        \_ Thank you.  I go to dailykos for all my unbiased political
        \_ What does "dailykos" mean, any how?  Daily Kooks on S***?
           \_ I never read the site; got the link off a KDE developer's blog.
              It doesn't seem biased actually... more about the futility of
              waging a public opinion war with guns and bombs. -op
                \_ dailykos doesn't seem biased? WOW!
           \_ The guy who started it is nicknamed "kos," pronounced with a
              long "o."  Hence "dailykos."  It is a left-wing echo chamber,
              similar to Freerepublic but just a hair less loony and obviously
              on the other side of the political spectrum.  Occasionally they
              have some good top level links.
                \_ dailykos has some good stuff sometimes.  most of the
                   freerepublic people have net personas of dangerous
                   \_ Do you lean conservative or liberal?
                        \_ lib.  i read and have read the free republic
                           urls, a lot of them have "let's go shoot
                           some libs!" tangents.  dailykos does not.
                           \_ What?!?  The right is NEVER violent!!
              \_ Kos himself is not looney at all, in fact he is pretty
                 much a mainstream Democrat. He is about as "looney" as
                 say, John Kerry. Some of his posters are nuts though.
                 \_ The posters are mostly what I was referring to.  I like
                    kos, but his site has been almost completely taken over
                    by the fruit loops.  He doesn't even write most of the
                    entries any more.
        \_ Read "Guerilla Warfare" by Che Guavara. He describes fighting
           a superior force using exactly those tactics.
2004/11/10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34803 Activity:moderate
11/10   This is kinda funny: Protest Warrior vs Gael Murphy
        \_ Wow, imagine what good the fine folks of Protest Warrior could
           accomplish if they'd just grow up.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34657 Activity:insanely high
11/04   So I posed this question to a liberal friend of mine.  Say, you are
        elected POTUS in 2004, instead of W.  Say a few days after your
        inauguration, NYC is nuked by a terrorist attack.  As in, a crater is
        left where NYC used to be.  What do you do?
        Feel free to modify the past however you wish to make your job
        easier (by disappearing the Iraq war, for instance).  I am just
        curious what the ideal liberal (or conservative, or libertarian)
        response would be to something like that. -- ilyas
        \_ You can win wars, fight crime, insurgencies and terrorism and make
           friends internationally without ruining your moral authority, your
           currency, your economy, and your rule of law, and you can do it
           right.  -John
           \_ Ok, what do you do?
              \_ I hate to say this, but the answer is "it depends."  I'd
                 certainly try to hit back in a measured, well-considered way,
                 like W. did in Afghanistan, before FUCKING IT ALL UP.  I
                 would also have better prerequisites for doing all these
                 great things because I would not have appointed a bunch
                 of opportunists and nutjobs as my deputies.  I'd not just
                 bask in the tremendous outpouring of international sympathy,
                 but actually actively use that to try and build support for
                 countermeasures, instead of cowboying it alone and pissing
                 off everyone in sight, and I'd focus on good, useful
                 protective measures instead of appointing a meathead in
                 charge of announcing a new color every day and blowing my
                 civil defense budget on distributing gas maskes in Dubuque.
                 Anything more detailed than that is just mental masturbation.
                 \_ Dude, John.  'It depends' on what?  NY fucking C is gone.
                    This is an oddly general answer to a fairly specific
                    question.  You honestly have no general policy in mind?
                    You probably shouldn't be president.  (I don't mean this
                    in an insulting way, nor am I implying I would do better).
                      -- ilyas
        \_ I immediately figure out how to shift the tax burden
           from the idle rich to the working poor!
        \_ That's easy.  You find out who did it, and nuke them back.  I don't
           think anyone is going to argue for something less than total
           commitment with an attack like that.  --liberal
           \_ Say Al Qaeda posted a video on Al Jazeera claiming responsibility,
              and spouting.  The issue is not whether you would commit, but
              what exactly you would do with the committment. -- ilyas
              \_ I think I already told you - nuke them back.  With an
                 essentially stateless organization like Al Qaeda, you
                 can't just nuke any old major city - you'd probably have
                 to go after whoever you think they got their bomb from.
                 A nuclear weapon capable of actually turning NYC into a crater
                 is just not something AQ could create on their own.  I'm not
                 sure what you mean to gain by asking this question with such
                 an extreme example, unless I'm being led into some sort of
                 false dichotomy trap.  Given that this is ilyas, that might
                 be a good assumption to make.
                 \_ Ok, say Al Qaeda managed to steal a nuke from Pakistan or
                    bought one from Ukraine. -- ilyas
                    \_ Pakistan's nukes are probably far too clunky for AQ
                       to realistically deliver to an NYC target, so let's
                       say they bought it from Ukraine.  Let's further assume
                       that they bought it from a rogue agent acting alone,
                       and that Ukraine itself is not responsible.  Is that
                       \_ Sure.
                          \_ Okay.  So you don't actually have a state that you
                             can nuke, at least not just yet.  You've got to
                             hunt down and exterminate every last AQ member,
                             and nuke any country that gets in your way.
                             Again, I'm not sure why you're using such an
                             extreme example.  The answers get much murkier
                             with more realistic scenarios.
                             \_ So basically what you are saying is, you
                                will not do anything different from what we
                                are trying to do now: hunting down Al Qaeda
                                (how?).  This is after America's largest
                                city is turned to dust.  I think this is
                                an alarming state of affairs. -- ilyas
                                \_ What else are you supposed to do?  Start
                                   nuking random countries?  I knew you were
                                   going to turn this into some kind of logical
                                   \_ I don't know what we are supposed to do.
                                      If this is a trap, it's not really my
                                      trap.  I am just pointing out that it's
                                      not really as far fetched as people say
                                      for the US to take a very proactive, and
                                      possibly intrusive, stance in the world,
                                      over and above vaguely 'trying to hunt
                                      down Al Qaeda.'  Btw, if NYC is in
                                      fact dusted, there is no way you will
                                      be able to politically justify
                                      essentially doing nothing, as you are
                                      proposing.  -- ilyas
                                      \_ I'm not sure what it is that you're
                                         trying to discover with this line
                                         of questioning.  Personally, I'd have
                                         no problem invading a country that's
                                         harboring terrorists who nuked NYC.
                                         But the US has limited resources, and
                                         it's stupid to overextend into
                                         countries that are not directly
                                         responsible or accountable (ie Iraq).
                                         I don't think this is a Liberal or
                                         Conservative issue, it's a common
                                         sense perspective.  Violence should
                                         be cold and reasonably applied, not
                                         randomly meted out according to the
                                         whimsy of someone's murky, conflicted
                                         agenda (ideally, anyhow).   -mice
                                         \_ Who will you invade?  The nuke was
                                            bought from a ukranian rogue!
                                            \_ I'm assuming that the point of
                                               of the exercise is to probe the
                                               'liberal' stance of motd'ers,
                                               and show their hypocrisy or
                                               their naivete, using Iraq as
                                               the point of contention.  This
                                               is an interesting question,
                                               though I don't like ilyas'
                                               socratic RP-scenario approach
                                               to ascertaining this.    -mice
                                               \_ I think you are attributing
                                                  more malice to my line of
                                                  questioning than there is.
                                                  I don't really know what
                                                  we should do.  I think it's
                                                  more curiosity than anything
                                                  else.  If I am pointing out
                                                  anything 'malicious' it's that
                                                  the typical liberal response
                                                  might not necessarily be
                                                  politically tenable if
                                                  something truly bad
                                                  happens. -- ilyas
                                                  \_ Eh, it's not malice; the
                                                     presupposition that
                                                     there's a 'typical
                                                     liberal response' seems to
                                                     give some measure of
                                                     validation to my
                                                     opinion that there's a
                                                     measure of socraticalness
                                                     in the conversation.  I
                                                     apologize if I it seemed
                                                     I was accusing you of
                                                     malicious intent; you
                                                     just very seldom ask
                                                     unloaded questions.
                                                     So what, in your view, IS
                                                     the 'typical liberal
                                                     response'?  -mice
                                                     \_ Well, I gathered it's
                                                        'don't do anything
                                                        other than gather intel
                                                        and try to catch
                                                        terrorists, just as
                                                        we are trying to now.'
                                                          -- ilyas
                                                  \_ Honestly ilyas, if NYC
                                                     really gets nuked, all
                                                     bets are off and
                                                     traditional politics
                                                     probably goes out
                                                     the window as the
                                                     apocalypse begins.
        \_ Get into that underground nuke-proof bunker with Rice and Elaine.
           Lock everyone else out.  What follows are left for your imagination.
           -- troll
        \_ Blame Bush.
        \_ Maybe it would be better if you asked a hypothetical question
           that had a non-zero chance of obtaining.
           \_ You think the probability of a nuclear terrorist attack on
              NYC is 0? -- ilyas
        \_ I don't think this is a liberal/conservative issue. Your question
           is too vague to give any particular answer.
           \_ You can attack this question on a lot of grounds, but not on
              vagueness.  I gave a particular situation.  NYC is a crater.
              You are the president.  What is your policy?  -- ilyas
              \_ Just for fun, here was the ilyas policy from an older motd
                 post: "nuke the arab world".  And in ilyas fantasy land,
                 while the US is launching its nukes to wipe out all those
                 muslim countries, no other country does anything.  Iran
                 doesn't nuke Isreal, India and Pakistan don't nuke each other,
                 North Korea doesn't nuke either Japan or China, etc.  The
                 rest of the world happily sits on their hands and lets the
                 US do all the nuking.  -meyers
                 \_ Meyers, I believe I made the _prediction_ that the US
                    will mobilize and do a long term invasion of the Middle
                    East as a response to a nuking of NYC.
                    This prediction was NOT my policy suggestion.
                    Furthermore, I never either predicted a nuking, nor
                    advocated a nuking myself, unless something like a GTNW
                    was already in progress.
                    You are pulling this out of your ass.
                    (Certainly if US will have nukes going off everywhere,
                     i.e. a 'free-for-all', then US will retaliate, but that's
                     a rational response.) -- ilyas
        \_ Okay smart guy, what is *your* response?
                \_ Did you read this thread at all?
                   \_ Yes, I read the entire thread. Ilyas has no answers,
                      only criticisms.
              \_ I go on TV and make a rousing, determined, patriotic speech
                 mobilizing the entire country to blindly support my
                 domestic political agenda. I blame Bush for fucking up
                 on the Bin Laden situation and overextending our troops,
                 and having bad priorities w.r.t. Iraq, Iran, North Korea,
                 Pakistan etc. We have to consider how a terrorist could
                 actually acquire and detonate a city-destroying nuke in
                 NYC, seems highly unlikely to me. I think it would be
                 more likely that if they acquire one it would be in the
                 Eurasian continent and they would perhaps target Israel.
                 I would not nuke another country since it seems unlikely
                 that a state will have any direct responsibility, and
                 it would piss off the world with nuclear contamination
                 and deaths of poor dumb peons somewhere in a symbolic
                 act of rage. I suppose nuking Mecca and engaging Islam
                 in a full-on apocalyptic shitfest would be what some
                 rightists would call for. I would not do that. I would
                 concentrate on Pakistan and Iran with intensity. I
                 don't know much about Musharraf, but I would claim that
                 an international security force is needed in Pakistan
                 since it seems Al Qaeda is operating out of there.
                 I would lobby other nations hard for military support
                 in Iraq and other places, and use the threat of
                 economic consequences if they fail to help... this must
                 be done right after the attack while the moral mandate
                 is on our side (but we wouldn't be publically hostile
                 until after an ally publically shit in our face).
                 until after an ally publically shit in our face). -moderate
                 \_ You are not ilyas.
                    \_ too much posting, too lazy to arrange properly.
        \_ If the US is nuked by AQ, then I think the solution would be
           marshall law in the US. We probably would round up every
           \_ Wataaaaa!
           vaguely Muslim or Middle-Eastern person and close the borders.
           Meanwhile, I would not be surprised if many allies did the same
           thing. Israel and the US would go on the offensive against
           the Muslim states (Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc.) but I do think
           most of the changes would be here at home.
2004/11/4 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34649 Activity:high
11/3    So, which Supreme court decisions do you think will be overturned after
        Roe?  I'm betting on Griswold, and perhaps maybe the big enchilada,
        Marbury vs. Madison:
        \_ not really funny
        \_ seriously, how many of you neocons on soda actually want Roe v Wade
           overturned? -nivra
           \_ none but the fact of the matter is that Bush is in the office
              and you bet your ass something's gonna give
           \_ RVW was the worst USSC decision ever.  Further opened
              the door to judicial activism.  It should be reversed merely on
              Constitutional merit, and abortion rights returned to states,
              where they preexisted.
              \_ BvBoE was the worst USSC decision ever.  Further opened the
                 door to judicial activism.  It should be reversed merely on
                 Constitutional merit, and racial segregation rights returned
                 to states, where they preexisted.
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34610 Activity:kinda low
11/3    Dear Mr. Osama Bin Laden, please continue your cause. Please
        don't target your friends in big cities like New York, Los
        Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, etc. Do please target ultra right
        Christian gun-owning rednecks in the red states like Ohio
        and Florida. Thank you.
        \_ And if you target Indiana, pretty-please spare Bloomington.
           The Demos won all but one of the county and city races last night.
        \_ I guess the end of the election hasn't made the trolls go away for
           even a second.
           \_ Hello?  This is the motd?
           \_ How is this a troll? In 10+ years, when the orphaned Iraqi's
              grow up, what do you think the first thing on their mind is?
              Do you really think terriorism can be solved by killing more
              innocent people? Kill first, ask questions later? If BushCo
              wants to fuck the rest of the world as they pleases, then
              they have every right to strike us back however they can.
              And idiots who vote for Bush and think Bush will make them
              safer just don't see it.
              \_ That's why we have to round up and kill all of the Iraqi
                 orphans! Duh! You liberals are too soft!
2004/11/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/HW/CPU] UID:34600 Activity:nil
11/3    Any bets on the next senate minority leader?  If they pick that
        son of a bitch Liebermann, I'm leaving the party for good.
        \_ Damn jew!
        \_ Reid, don't you know?
        \_ What's wrong with Liebermann?
           \_  He was one of the authors of the homeland security bill that
               created the DHS, is a big supporter of the patriot act,
               was part of the crusade to censor music and video games,
               is owned outright be the insurance industry, and is a total
               welfare whore for the ct. defense contractors.  In the primaries
               the candidates were asked about how to deal with America's
               healthcare crisis.  Everyone had some answer or another
               except him.  His response was basically "I don't think the
               american people want to hear about that."   Hell, even the
               republicans admit our healthcare system is fucked, they just
               disagree on how to fix it.  When someone says it's just not
               a problem, that's far far worse.  As a ct. resident, I
               particularly resent him because I've voted for him on a
               lesser-of-evils basis, but he continually represents the
               corporate interests of CT, rather than the people.
                \_ So, to sum up, he's the biggest liberal in the Senate.
                   \_  huh?
                        \_ Engage humor processor, read again.
                           \_ Sorry.  that part of my brain fused about
                              11 pm last night.  I've got dual cooling
                              fans on the rage processor, and had to shut
                              down other auxiliary fucntions.
2004/11/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34578 Activity:high 57%like:33227
11/2    There was no terrorist attack!
2004/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34529 Activity:high
11/2  Osama will bankrupt us, and the current administration will help:
        \_ Cool, OBL is taking a page from the Reagan vs. Soviet play book.
           Go Osama!  Go Kerry!
           \_ As if you current economics can even be affected like they
              were to such a backwards economy like the Soviet Union.
        \_ Why are you posting shit from that Moonie paper?  Stop posting
           garbage links.
        \_ I have wondered at times if Bush is in fact controlled by an
           enemy of America, out to ruin us, such as the Chinese.
2004/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34524 Activity:very high
11/1    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html
        You know I'm trying really hard to find some idiotic thing
        OBL said but actually he is not that dumb. Anyone feel this
        \_ Of course you can't find anything you disagree with.  His latest
           video is from the DNC and Michael Moore talking points.  When you
           find yourself in agreement with a psychotic like OBL you seriously
           need to take a step back and evaluate your own philosophies.
        \_ the caliphate is dead dead dead
        \_ What he said (this time) in and of itself is not idiotic.  What
           he said (this time) in the context of being a sanctimonious,
           ruthlessly murdering prick representing an oppressive, twisted
           fundamentally defective ideology plumbs new, untold depths of
           politically opportunistic cretinism.  Don't go there.  -John
        \_ Anytime he mentions the 19 blessed martyrs or the pure soul of
           Mohammed Atta, he shows stupidity and evil.  Don't forget about
           the planes and the ~ 3,000 innocents, especially the ones jumping
           from the tops of the buildings.
           \-i was once told this story: my uncle's car got a flat just
             outside the fence of a mental institutuion in michigan. as he
             was changing the tire, an inmate stood on the other side of
             the fence peering at him. at some point a car drove by an hit
             them hubcap on which the lugnuts were resting, scattering them
             into the vegetation making them impossible to find. my uncle
             just stood there in frustration, not knowing what to do, since
             he didnt have any spares. finally after a while, the inmate
             fellow spoke up and said, "you can take one lug off of the
             3 other tires" ... my uncle was delighted at the solution and
             bit surprised at the source ... and delicatly raised the issue
             about his incarceration in the asylum, to which the fellow said
             in a deadpan, "i'm crazy, not stupid."
             \_ I mean stupid in the ultimate sense of stupidity of massive
                killing of innocents.  I am not talking about technical,
                managerial, or inspirational skills.  Osama == stupid.
                \- i think the "massive killing of innocents" is better
                   characterized as "wrong" than "stupid".
                   \_ Evil is fundamentally stupid. -- ilyas
                     \_ "And now, Lone Star, you see why evil will always
                        triumph over good:  because good is dumb."  Evil is
                        not stupid, it is, well, evil.  But why all the
                        argumentation about semantics?  The overall "wrong-
                        ness" of certain individual goes beyond good or evil,
                        into the area of "mad dog who should be put down", not
                        out of any feelings of rancor, but on a purely
                        rational basis (i.e. if he's allowed to live, he'll
                        have another x,000 innocents killed.)  But then again,
                        I'm an elitist nazi, for what it's worth.  -John
                        \_ where's the hail german john guy? I see an
                           opportunity here...
                           \_ Yeah; I'm kind of worried, actually.  I hope
                              he's OK.  This was a freebie... -John
                              \_ hm still no sign of the hail john dude. John,
                                 what the hell did you do? Make death threats?
                   \_ eh, you're probably right, but I was coming at it
                      kind of from ilyas' angle.
                      \_ which proves you're wrong
2004/11/1 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34515 Activity:nil
11/1    http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/33124.htm
        CA to be safe?
        \_ Based on a rather biased translation of UBL's speech.  Cf.
           houris as grapes instead of maidens, and maiden instead of
           virgin in certain religious works.
2004/10/30 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34455 Activity:moderate
10/30   You know, after watching the Bin Laden video, I couldn't help it
        thinking... wow, he's a pretty calm, intelligent guy with a pretty
        clear message, unlike our Chimp in Chief who loses temper and can't
        even speak English and construct clear ideas.
        \_ You're nuts or a troll.  OBL is a lunatic.
           \_ I don't think he's a lunatic in the sense of being a frothing
              at the mouth, raving mad kind of lunatic. I think he probably
              does have an understandable beef with the US, and he's not
              trying to be a terrorist just for the hell of it. Of course,
              his decision to take it as far as actively plotting to and
              then actually killing people is presumably what you think
              makes him a lunatic, but I think it's a rational and considered
              move, albeit one I disagree with.
              \_ I don't think it's rational in that it will ultimately prove
                 counterproductive to his cause.  Attacking the US historically
                 had not proven itself to be a smart thing to do. -- ilyas
                 \_ well the US gov historically does not negociate, period,
                    leaving the poor ppl with no choice but to resort to
                    \_ US should negotiate with whom?  For what?  What do you
                       mean 'no choice?'  Are you trolling? -- ilyas
             \_ Well he wants Islamic theocracy and thinks the USA stands in
                the way of that (which it does). His methods are rational in
                that desiring to achieve his goals by force they're probably
                the only possibility. But his goals are insane and evil.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34452 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Bizarre.  The media is in spin-overdrive, declaring the OBL tape a
        "big win for Bush."
        I don't get it.  Please, someone explain this to me.
        \_ Is it TV you're watching?  Which stations?
        \_ "The airing of a tape of Osama bin Laden capped a week of
            bad news for President Bush that threatened to derail his
            candidacy in the final days of the presidential election" --CBS
            \_ CNN is saying pretty much exactly the opposite, that the tape
               "completely wipes away the events of the last week."
                \_ Perhaps meaning that it supercedes it... it's a statement
                   that says nothing about being good or bad for Bush.
                   \_ NBC Nightly News: ""The Bin Laden tape has erased any
                      momentum that John Kerry may have had during the past
                      week".  Go TV news!  How can he even pretend to know
                      \_ I think it's reasonable to expect that the release
                         of the tape will change the dialog over the next
                         couple of days; that's not the same as "erasing any
                         momentum," since it could wind up being positive for
                         Kerry.  -tom
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:34447 Activity:moderate
10/29   You know I actually agree with what Osama said. Our security is
        in our own hands, and while it may make some difference
        between who we pick as our leaders, our actions aboard is the
        direct consequence of why we suffered 911. And unless we
        fundamentally change the way we deal with the rest of the
        world, we will never be safe. Competition and survival of the
        fittest is good and all that, but we shouldn't take it to the
        extreme that the other side simply can't survive. If we want
        to be the world police, then we need to do so using a more
                        \_ America, fuck yeah!
        balanced approach.
        \_ you may want to rethink your use of the word "consequence"
        \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ I agree too. America's streets will run red with the blood of
           infidels, God willing. America has held the world under its
           merciless boot-heel for so long, it's too late for redemption.
        \_ The problem is that there's always someone feeling oppressed in
           the world, it doesn't matter how nice you are.  There are also
           a lot of people who are just jealous and always want to "take
           down the big guy a peg or two."
           \_ Nobody hates Sweden, or the Swiss or the Dutch. It is possible
              to have material wealth without stomping on others.
              \_ Dude, people hate the swiss, even I know that.  And, uh,
                 the germans. -- ilyas
                 \_ Why do you hate CERN?
              \_ These are very small countries. It is easy to maintain a
                 high standard of living with such a small populace
                 without pissing off too many people.
2018/12/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34445 Activity:moderate
10/29   Bin Laden speaks out right before the election. Is that going
        to help or hurt our great President of the United States?
        This can't help, but I'm not an pigfucking inbred moronic loser:
        "It appeared to him (Bush) that a little girl's talk about her goat
         and its butting was more important than the planes and their butting
         of the skyscrapers. That gave us three times the required time to
         carry out the operations, thank God," he said.
        \_ Hurts Dubya.  He didn't nail Osama and Osama is laughing at him.
        \_ you guys realize that the Democrats are sheltering Bin Laden
           for the purpose of winning the election right?  -conservative
           \_ How's that koolaid tonight?
           \_ Are you serious?  Who is the "Commander in Chief" right now?
        \_ Bin Laden is taunting Bush, but also trying to persuade
           Americans to vote for Kerry. So the question is: Why would
           bin Laden want Kerry as President?
           \_ http://andrewsullivan.com
              But why release a tape just before the elections? The obvious
              impact will be to help Bush. Any reminder of the 9/11 attacks
              will provoke a national rallying to the commander-in-chief. The
              deep emotional bond so many of us formed with the president back
              then is Bush's strongest weapon in this election, and OBL has
              just revived it. The real October Surprise turned out not to be
              OBL's capture (sorry, Teresa!) but OBL's resilience. I have a
              feeling that this will tip the election decisively toward the
              incumbent. A few hours ago, I thought Kerry was headed for
              victory. Now I think the opposite. I also have a sinking feeling
              that that was entirely bin Laden's objective.
              \_ I don't think criticism of Bush is meant to help Bush
                 win. How the heck do you draw that conclusion?
                 \_ Let's see... "Any reminder of the 9/11 attacks
                    will provoke a national rallying to the commander-in-chief.
                    The deep emotional bond so many of us formed with the
                    president back then is Bush's strongest weapon in this
                    election, and OBL has just revived it."  Just a random
                    guess of Andrew Sullivan's thinking, of course.
                    \_ There is a good rebuttal to this ridiculous line of
                       thinking right on his own web site.
                    \_ It's total bs-- up til now Bush could probably claim that
                       Osama was buried in a cave somehow.  It's not good for
                       Kerry, but it's definitely bad for Bush.
              \_ He might be right, but Osama is pretty nuts, and his
                 understanding of American phychology is sketchy at best.
                 Who can tell what he's thinking?
                 \_ Derka Derka Derka?
        \_ So much for the tin-foil-hat brigade saying we had him in custody
           and Bush was saving him for the Oct. surprise.
           \_ "Bin Laden" is a computer program in a pakistani movie
              studio.  The kurds will release Bin Laden (in a daring US
              Army Raid) on monday.
           \_ There's still 3 days.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34442 Activity:nil
10/29   Osama bin Laden:  "It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief
        of the country [Bush] would leave 50,000 citizens in the two towers to
        face those horrors alone ... because he thought listening to a child
        discussing her goats was more important. ... Your security is not in
        the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. ... To the U.S. people, my
        talk is to you about the best way to avoid another disaster. ... I
        tell you: security is an important element of human life and free
        people do not give up their security. ... If Bush says we hate
        freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. It
        is known that those who hate freedom do not have dignified souls, like
        those of the 19 blessed ones ... We fought you because we are free ...
        and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our
        security we undermine yours."
        \_ it would be funny if osama came out with a tape blaming
           the wtc crashes on jews pilotting the planes filled with
           defenseless arabs.
        \_ Kerry using bin Laden to gain votes?
           \_ You partisan spinning must be topping 10k rpms.  Take a step back
              and try to get some perspective here.
           \_ Uhhh....huh?
              \_ The very first sentence "It never occurred ...... was more
                 important" sounds like Kerry.
                 \_ This is a translation.  Comparing speaking style in
                    different languages is not easy.
           \_ Bush using fear to gain votes?
        \_ Is there a full or even partial transcript URL?  I'd like to read
           the whole thing or at least as much as is out there.  Or was this
           the whole thing?  Thanks.
        \_ Isn't it great that Osama Bin Laden is irrefutably accepting
           responsibility for the attacks now that Muslims don't have to
           cling to that Jews-did-it conspiracy story anymore, since the
           whole world hates our guts anyways?
           \_ It was a Jewish actor masquerading as Osama.  It's a devious
              plot to pin blame on Islam.
2004/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34435 Activity:nil
10/29   Go Drudge!  Go Drudge #1 Fan!
2004/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34420 Activity:moderate
10/28   Any bets on whether the new "Al Qaeda" tape will prove to be real?
        \_ I don't think al-queda is as centralized as the administration
           says it is.  they didn't start calling themselves
           "al-queda" until the gwbush administration started blamin
            everything on them.
        \_ It IS real.  Authenticated by the CIA.  Delivered in Pakistan.
           Professionally done.  Speaker follows the news and is more
           articulate than Dubya.
           \_ Um...
              "But agency officials said they have not been able to
              authenticate the tape."
              http://csua.org/u/9pd (yahoo news)
              Also, who is leaking this shit to Drudge?
              \_ "The CIA and FBI have authenticated a new al Qaeda videotape"
                 Well, that's where I got "authenticated" from, I guess.
                 \_ Sure, a Drudge link.  Heh.
                    \_ Anyway, I guess the CIA hasn't authenticated it, but
                       from all evidence so far it's real:
                       Of course, IMO, the guy is talking completely out of
                       his ass.
                       \_ In case you haven't noticed, pretty much all
                          terrorists are totally nuts.  Who but a nut job
                          could you get to drive a car full of explosives
                          someplace and BLOW HIMSELF UP?
                          \_ "talking out of his ass" = making claims that
                             he can't back up with actions
                             \_ Oh, sorry.  Does that make me a FOB?
                                \_ 5 dollah sucky sucky!
                             \_ that's not really a global definition. To
                                "talk out of one's ass" generally means
                                talking bullshit, usually in the sense of
                                making stuff up as needed. Similarly,
                                "he pulled that out of his ass" means he
                                just made something up and passed it off as
2004/10/28 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34410 Activity:low
10/28   http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=206661
        "No, my fellow countrymen you are guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. You
        are as guilty as Bush and Cheney. You're as guilty as Rumsfeld and
        Ashcroft and Powell ... After decades of American tyranny and
        oppression, now it's your turn to die. Allah willing, the streets of
        America will run red with blood matching drop for drop the blood of
        America's victims. ... People of America, I remind you of the weighty
        words of our leaders, Osama bin Laden and Dr. Ayman al-Zawahri, that
        what took place on Sept. 11 was but the opening salvo of the global
        war on America ... And that Allah willing, the magnitude and ferocity
        of what is coming your way will make you forget all about Sept. 11."
        \_ "And, again, I don't know where he [bin laden] is.  I  --  I'll
            repeat what I said.  I truly am not that concerned about him." -GW
            \_ That's nice you quote only this part. Shows how honest you are.
        \_ "Azzam, who formerly worked for Haliburton, KBR, and Senior
            Presidential Advisor Karl Rove, says that this imminent attack
            should serve to underscore Vice President Dick Cheney's
2004/10/26-27 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34366 Activity:high
10/26   Awesome.  Children's puppet show encourages massacre.
        \_ I love You, You love me
           We'll murder the Zionist Enemy...
        \_ that's hilarious, sad it's true.. sheesh..
           \_ If your livelihood was an olive grove, maybe you'd want to shoot
              the people ripping it out.
              \_ Oh please.  Did you catch the palestinians were using the
                 trees to hide rocket launchers?
                 \_ I knew that, but the people firing rockets from olive
                    groves are not the same people who live/work there.  The
                    Israeli Army's distinct lack of sympathy for innocent
                    farmers is not exactly winning them friends.
                    \_ And how would you suggest an army deal with this
                       situation?  Ask them to stop?
                       \_ Look, if they feel the need to destroy an olive grove
                          for security reasons, that's OK, but you need to pay
                          them a fair-market price if you're going to take away
                          their means of earning a living.  From what I've
                          heard they just send in the buldozers and say
                          'tough shit'.
                          \_ Did you know that if the police destroy your
                             property while pursuing a suspect, etc. they are
                             not liable for damages?  Sounds like you don't
                             know much about established law.
                          \_ From what you've heard?  Still reading dailykos?
                             Or is that the PLO website?
                          \_ Wow, the governments on your planet must be
                             really fucking cool.  Could you kindly cite an
                             actual example of any existing government
                             compensating individuals (in this case
                             non-citizens!) for property destroyed/seized
                             for security reasons within a reasonable
                             timeframe following the destruction/seizure?
                             \_ The US Army routinely reimburses non-citizens
                                for property damage incurred during training.
                                I know this for a fact, since I saw it happen
                                in Panama. -Vet
                        \_ I am unaware of any police department deciding
                           they are in the business of punishing people,
                           that is a matter for our correctional system.
                           \_ If the army flattened your house while persuing
                              terrorists in this country, you would probably
                              be reimbursed but it isn't guaranteed.  If your
                              property was being used to hide weapons and you
                              didn't report it and the military destroyed your
                              house, tough shit.
                              \_ Actually, you probably wouldn't be reimbursed,
                                 even in the case where you were just an
                                 innocent bystander.
                                 \_ There's no need to speak hypothetically
                                    here.  One word: Waco.
                                    \_ But they were religious nutters so they
                                       don't have any rights.  Just because
                                       Reno could have had Koresh picked up
                                       in town when he made shopping trips,
                                       usually alone, twice a week.
                              \_ yea, easy for you to say.  report it, and
                                 the next day, you will be killed by those
                                 bastards for "collaborating with the
2004/10/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34307 Activity:very high
10/23   http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/21/1440244
        Interview with Robert Scheer, LA Times reporter, on a CIA report
        that was completed in May/June this year.
        "... what I reported was people who have knowledge of this saying
        they're stalling the report until after the election, so, it won't
        adversely affect Bush's chances ... And Porter Goss ... is the one who
        is currently stalling it. So, here is a study on what happened at 9/11
        demanded in December of 2002 -- 2001 by Congress -- 2001 by Congress.
        An eleven-man committee at the C.I.A worked on that question for
        almost two years; and it hasn't been turned over. ... My understanding
        is that this report is explosive because it says the Bush
        administration was asleep at the wheel before 9/11 and it fixes
        responsibility on individuals quite high up, and that it says the
        administration covered up after 9/11 by not holding these people
        accountable. So there it is."
        \_ Yeah, yeah, yeah... and cruise missile diplomacy used by Clinton
           really worked.
           \_ It went something like:  "Hey Dubya, I pissed off Osama by
              blowing up his base and almost getting him - you better watch
              out, he wants revenge.  Dubya:  Wut??!"
              \_ Translation, "That chick with the cum stained blue dress was
                 out there trying to ruin my legacy, so I wagged the dog,
                 destroyed an aspirin factory, killed a few camels, and
                 whipped up a hornets nest.  I never did jack about bin laden,
                 never made a major effort to do anything about terrorism,
                 never really did anything but try to create my legacy by
                 forcing Israel into dealing with terrorists and we know how
                 that worked out.  The first WTC bombing, the Cole, the 2
                 African embassies, and the rest... it's a criminal issue for
                 the FBI to arrest and prosecute individuals."
                 \_ This is all true, which is why Clinton did NOT tell Bush
                    "Terrorism will be your most important issue and watch
                    Bin Laden" during the transition, which Bush promptly
                    ignored since his neocons were busy planning an Iraq
                    invasion.  Isn't it funny how the same people who
                    criticize Clinton for launching missiles at enemy
                    terrorists who attacked our embassies and ships as
                    "Wag the Dog" praise Bush for invading a country that
                    did not attack us, totally wrecking our standing and
                    reputation all over the world?
                    \_ This post is odd.  You're confused because people
                       who criticize Clinton for not doing enough praise
                       Bush for doing a lot?  That's not confusing to me.
                        \_ No, people criticize Clinton for doing something
                           (Wag the Dog) and praise Bush for royally fucking
                           everything up.
                           \_ An apirin factory and a dead camel is doing
                              something but wiping out thousands of terrorists
                              is royally fucking everything up.  I'm guessing
                              you describe their actions and results in the
                              opposite terms I do because you pray east a few
                              times a day.  I can't think of another reason
                              why thousands of dead terrorists is bad and
                              doing nothing is good.
                                \_ Clinton could have wiped out Bin Laden
                                   & the entire royal family of UAE in one
                                   shot ... He chose not to create a
                                   diplomatic disaster, plus his hands were
                                   tied.  Bush, thanks to 9/11, has way more
                                   options open to him than Clinton, but he
                                   ends up invading a country which has little
                                   to do with 9/11, islamic fundamentalism,
                                   funding/harboring Al Queda, etc.  That's
                                   what royally fucking up means.  Plus,
                                   anti-Americanism is at an alltime high
                                   in Islamic countries, you can be sure that
                                   whatever number of terrorists Bush has
                                   killed, 3X replacements have been recruited
                                   since Bush is Bin Laden's poster boy for
                                   new terrorists.  It probably doesn't bother
                                   you that thousands of innocent lives have
                                   been lost in the Iraq war either, since
                                   all brown people are terrorists anyhow.
                 \_ Clinton:  Tried to get bin Laden after he killed hundreds
                              in two embassies, almost got him, even with
                              Monica on his cock.
                              \_That's nice you forgot to write Sudan offered
                                him and Clinton turned it down.
                                \_ Wrong.  Sudan was begging the Clinton admin
                                   to take him and did so at least three times
                                   that we know of publicly but Clinton didn't
                                   because they decided they didn't have the
                                   legal authority to do so.  They should have
                                   asked Al Gore who would have told them there
                                   is no over riding legal authority on such
                                   \_ How is that essentially wrong? Clinton
                                      didnt see what we did to Noreiga? U.S.
                                      can damn well arrest anyone we please!
                                        \_ They hate us because of our freedom!
                                   \_ This is just a bald faced lie.
                                      Stop getting your "information" from
                                      Right Wing propaganda sites.
                    Dubya:  Ignored fact that bin Laden wanted revenge after
                            we blew up his base and almost killed him.  Let
                            bin Laden get away, attacked Iraq instead.
                            \_ That's nice you forgot to include the part
                               about why the base was blown up.
                               \_ The base was blown up because bin Laden
                                  was responsible for attacking two U.S.
                                  embassies, killing hundreds, and because
                                  Bill had information that bin Laden was at
                                  one of the target sites at that very moment
                            \_ Almost killed him?  Bullshit.  Let him get away?
                               Is this the Tora Bora lie?
                               \_ We were moving troops out of Afghanistan
                                  and into Iraq.  Tommy Franks expressed
                                  displeasure with this, but made do with
                                  what he had, and bin Laden got away.
                                  "Almost killed him":
                                  (this was pretty well known back then, but
                                  I guess you've been drinking the Konservative
                                  Kool-Aid a bit too much)
2004/10/19 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34225 Activity:high
10/19   So in my completely uninformed opinion, October 31 is the best time
        for a terrorist attack, successful or not.  Soft targets.  Have phun.
        \_ bullshit.  I predict that, unless Bush's poll numbers drastically
           improve, we'll see a vague threat from tom "political whore"
           ridge for halloween, though.  every dingbat soccer mom will make
           their kid stay home and think about al queda instead of tricker
           treating, and nothing will happen.
           \_ I hope you're right.  Basically, if there is no attack, we win
              (for that round at least).  I do agree that a security
              announcement is virtually assured - since if the President's
              people say nothing and something blows up, they'll look like
              idiots again.  Better to say something and not have anything
              happen and imply that's because you were taking care of things.
              \_ My current favorite scenario is the "Bush parachutes into
                 Baghdad on eve of election to get photo-op with troops" angle.
           \_ If you go trick-or-treating, the terrorists will have won.
              \_ This is a war of cultures.  The pagan terrorists and their
                 activist trick-or-treaters are trying to undermine strong
                 Christian American values.
           \_ Trick or treating died years ago.  We buy 2 bags of candy each
              year and leave the lights on, the traditional invitation, and
              I end up eating 1.5 bags of candy every year.  The same is true
              at all my friend's houses both here and in other states.
              \_ You must live in a crappy area where people don't know their
                 neighbors.  I bet I'll run out of the 3 large bags of candy
                 I bought, just like last year and the year before that.
                 \_ Yes I do and so do all my friends.  Nonsense.  Your 3 large
                    bags is nothing compared to the 15+ bags we shelled out
                    every year when I was a kid and then we gave out pennies
                    and other small change until we had nothing left and they
                    still kept coming.  3 bags?  Whatever.....  Trick or
                    treating is dead because all the moms are afraid their
                    kids will eat razors, drugs, and poison.  This goes back
                    about 20 years.  3 bags?  I'm still shaking my head on that
                    \_ I don't think they worry about the candy (razors etc.).
                       They worry about bad people out there at night. When I
                       was a kid we just went around on our own. Now I always
                       see some worried parent hovering just behind the kids.
                       Or they go to some well-lighted mall or something.
                       Pussies, the lot of 'em!
                 \_ It can really vary a lot.  My mom used to get like 2-3
                    small groups of kids, but last year it seems a bunch of
                    kids moved into the neighborhood and she went through 2 big
        \_ Come Oct 31, there will not be any terrorist attack. Terrorists
           know that if the conservatives win, the US will do whatever it
           takes to fit their conservative foreign policy agendas. Terrorists
           are not dumb, they know this, and they will not attack.
             Instead, there will be a lot of vague warnings  from the
           Homeland Security Dept. on possible attacks, and a lot of
           heightened alerts from the Sinclair/Fox network scaring people
           into thinking that there will be a major attack. Fear-->
           wanting a big safe powerful government. It worked before,
           it will work again.                  -election oracle
           \_ What about a Republican sponsored "terrorist" attack? They
              have done some pretty crappy stuff (secret Paris negotiation
              with the Vietnamese, Iran-Contra) in the past to win elections,
              why not this year, when the stakes are even higher?
              \_ Yes! Yes!  And the JEWS will help them!  And who says the
                 terrorists even exist?  Only FOX News!  Dubya and his JEW
                 cronies blew up everything on 9/11 and would've got more
                 if it wasn't for the brave few people on the 4th plane.
                 How do we know they were Saudis?  How do we know bin Laden
                 even exists or if he does (unlikely) that he isn't a Dubya
                 agent?  We've all known for years that Dubya and his JEW
                 allies in Israel are just trying to establish the Zionist
                 Occupation Government!  Iraq was just the a practice session
                 for when they take over German, France, Russia, Spain, North
                 Korea, Syria, and all other good and free and liberal minded
                 places!  We must strike first!  We must protect liberty!  Let
                 everyone know Dubya is in cahoots with the JEWS!
                 \_ Wow, you're really a stupid Jew.
2004/10/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34138 Activity:high
10/14   Green Zone Cafe blows up.
        Terrorists win!  (shorter timer this time)
        \_ Terrorist win, you die.
        \_ One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
           \_ Yermom, though, will always be a slut.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34094 Activity:very high
10/13   Does the president get "patted down" or have to walk through a
        metal detector anywhere he goes here in America?
        \_ That's no sock in the President's flight suit!
        \_ "What do you think?" because that's a really dumb question.  What,
           he's going to carry a bomb on an airplane and blow himself up?  They
           need to protect Dick Cheney from him?  Can you think of a single
           scenario in which he would need to be patted down?
           \_ Actually, Bush needs to be protected from Cheney, as do we all:
           \_ This argument is just plain stupid. By this reasoning, then
              we shouldn't pat anyone down at the airport.
              \_ Are you really this fuck-stupid?
                \_ He's not, but you are apparently.
                   \_ Please.  He's extrapolating a conclusion based on the
                      absurdly false premise that the office of the president
                      is somehow logically equivalent to everyone else.  This
                      is categorically untrue, and your inability to see this
                      only confirms my first opinion: that you're fuck-stupid.
                   \_ actually you are.
                      \_ no... YOU are
                         \_ wdyha?
                            \_ wdYha???
                                \_ ED!
                                   \_ BUD DAY!
           \_ You're dumb.
              \_ Am I?  OK, give me one good reason to pat down the president.
                 \_ If it's because you/others believe he's more moral than us
                    or because he more than anyone should know not to break a
                    law, that's nonsense because neither he (nor any other
                    person) is. if it's because he's constantly surrounded by
                    secret service officers, then fine, that makes more sense.
                 \_ Dude.  Seriously.  1) he's a republican.  2) he's texan.
                 \_ He loses the election and wants to take congress with him,
                    are you really this stupid?
                    \_ Now _that's_ a Ludlum premise if I've ever heard one:
                       "Silence gripped the Senate as the ousted President
                        lifted the ticking device above his head. 'My God!'
                        someone suddenly cried, 'the President has a bomb!'"
        \_ Why doesn't everyone stop name-calling and just attach explanations
           with their responses. Are we in 3rd-grade still?
           \_ dood UR teh gay
        \_ Excellent question to ask. If he gets
           special treatments, then maybe a terrorist could hire a Bush
           double, have him board airforce one, then have him hijack
           the plane to crash into the Bush mansion.
           \_ How do we know he hasn't already been replaced by a double?
                \_ Because a double would have a noticeable bulge on his
                   back where the battery pack goes.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:34086 Activity:high
10/13   GITMO: Terrorist U?
        link:csua.org/u/9g4 (SJ Mercury News)
        \_ "It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.
           After he returned to his tribal homeland in South Waziristan,
           he became a rebel leader and has opposed Pakistani forces that
           are hunting Al-Qaida fighters in the semiautonomous area."
           Now why is this a surprise? If I've been detained by some
           country for 2 years, you'll bet your ass when I am freed, I will
           do all I can do get even.
           \_ Thank you for spelling it out. -op
2004/10/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Recreation/Food] UID:34051 Activity:high
10/12   What is the wisdom of blowing up an unoccupied restaurant that is
        used as a terrorist meeting place? Why not raid the restaurant on
        the ground while it is actually being used? I doubt the terrorists
        are saying: "Damn! They blew up the restaurant. Now we're
        screwed." They'll just meet somewhere else. This is stupid.
        \_ 1. Hope they get people when they are in the place.
           2. Hope other shop owners will care more and not let them meet
              at their places.
           3. Terrah! 9/11!
           \_ Wouldn't it make more sense to stake it out and actually
              catch the guys?
              \_ Of course not.  Blowing up the place intimidates shopkeepers
                 and has almost no risk of casualties.
                 \_ What about, I dunno, actually catching/killing some
2004/10/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34040 Activity:moderate
10/11   I-Team investigation uncovers voter registration fraud
        Hundreds of completed voter registration cards found
        stashed in car
        Election boards overwhelmed
        \_ MOTD readers underwhelmed
2004/10/8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33978 Activity:high
10/7    If Bin Laden were found in the next week or so, do you think the
        election would favor one party or another?
        \_ Yes.  Dubya.  Duh.
        \_ W. might just be delaying a Bin Laden capture in time for the
           elections. At the very least, an early capture of B.L. might
           have kept W. from invading Iraq.
           \_ I worried for a while that this was a possibility... but
              if they were going to pull this rabbit out of the hat,
              don't you think they would have dont it already? Seems too
              late at this point to not appear calculated
              \_ If Pakistan can pick him up, basically anytime, then
                 maybe they can "bargain/extort" more for producing
                 B.L. for W. than whatever was agreed to before.
           \_ I think you need more tin foil in your hat.
              \_ Think reagan/carter/hostages...
                 \_ Think "I'm an idiot" you moron.
2004/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33972 Activity:high
10/7    I notice on wall people are discussing the idea that Guantanamo
        interrogations "have not prevented a single terrorist attack".
        Here's the source article:
        \_ People on wall don't discuss.  They just echo each other and
           say "w00t!".
           \_ Then add to the discussion.  Anonymous Coward. -scotsman
              \_ This is what wall reminds me of:
                 http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html -- ilyas
                 \_ http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame88.html
                    \_ Whoa.  It's aaron with a fro!
                       \_ I hate Oliver Stone. --aaron
                          \_ I find it amusing that the only thing aaron
                             could find to counter the caricature of himself
                             was that he does not like Oliver Stone.  Way
                             to go aaron!  You are not a 1-d stereotype!
                             You are a HUMAN BEING!
                             \_ Congratulations! You got the joke! --aaron
                                \_ Congratulations!  You are a cardboard
                                   cutout!  It's not a joke, it's depressing.
                                   \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                      \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                         \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                            (it's time someone stepped in to
                                            terminate the recursion). -- ilyas
                                         \_ Actually, insulting an anonymous
                                            person anonymously is perfectly
                                            symmetrical. Slightly silly perhaps,
                                            but no harm done. Insulting
                                            someone by name is defamatory.
                                            Do you really not understand this?
                                            \_ Wow!  You got the point of the
                                               comment!  Good for you!  Now
                                               maybe you can work on using
                                               silverware without a bib!
                          \_ even Conan the Barbarian?
                             \_ Okay, I hate Oliver Stone except for Conan
                                \_ What about Wall Street? do you hate that?
           \_ w00t!  pwn3d!
2004/10/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33926 Activity:moderate
10/5    Truth:  "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence
        that links the two [al Qaeda and Saddam] ... I have seen the answer to
        that question migrate in the intelligence community over a period of a
        year in the most amazing way ... Second, there are differences in the
        intelligence community as to what the relationship was"
                - Rumsfeld, Monday afternoon
        Dubya's truth:  "A question I answered today ... regrettably was
        misunderstood ... I have acknowledged since September 2002 that there
        were ties between Al-Qaeda and Iraq"
                - Rumsfeld, Monday night, via web site
        \_ Yoo-hoo, hello?  Bush defenders, where are you now?  Neo-cons?
           \_ There are no "neo-cons" on the motd.  It's a mde up term of the
              left to make a word that sounds like "neo-nazi".  Get over it.
              No one is eating that bait.
2004/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:33901 Activity:moderate
10/4    here's a pretty good reason to not re elect gwbush,
        his administration's efforts to outsource torture to other
        \_ Oh no! The horror! Humans hurting other humans! We should rewrite
           our genetic code to stamp it out and live off the land.
           \_ gave me a good chuckle
        \_ Or a good reason TO re-elect him, depending on your POV.
           \_ true.  too bad i have to share the country with psychos.
              \_ Republican: evil/stupid, Democrat: good/smart.
                 \_ WDYHA?
           \_ If you think it is a GOOD reason, you should ask yourself
              why we should outsource rather than doing it in house.
              Outsourcing is unamerican!
2004/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33878 Activity:moderate
10/1    fuck you narrow minded liberals who have to resort to selectively
        nuking when you can't make intelligent counter arguments. Expect
        more mass deletion from now on.
        \_ I can counter-argue anything you'd like, but if you ask me to debate
           20 points with you, I'll just give you the finger.  FWIW I did not
           nuke your "debate". -dgies
        \_ why don't we outsource the nuking of motd the same way GWB
           outsourced killing bin Laden to Afghan warlords?
           \_ You mean they'll ask for lots of $100 bills and then let the motd
2004/9/30-10/1 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33848 Activity:moderate
9/30    Republicans trying to pull a "Florida" in Ohio:
        \_ How?  No one pulled a "Florida" in the first place except the
           lawyers after the fact.
           \_ Um, bogus felons lists being used to prevent blacks from voting.
              \_ Um, didn't happen.
                 If you don't believe his analysis, follow the link the the
                 actual investigation.
                 \_ ...are you for real?
                    \_ Yes, I am.  And I read the report.  Did you?
                       \_ Yes, I did, and I see a system that failed to
                          accomplish its goals.
                       \_ That article is from the guy who wrote the
                          dissent of the US Election Commission Report.
                          In other words, he was in the minority in his
                          opinion. The majority disagreed with him.
                          \_ Did you read his dissent?  Did you read the facts
                             he presented in it?
                                Facts are such stubborn things. He claims no
                                one was disenfrachised. The commission found
                                at least 78. I read his "dissent." It was
                                nothing more than a partisan rant, just like
                                that article.
                                \_ "The majority of those witnesses who
                                   experienced problems and who came before the
                                   Commission testified that they were
                                   ultimately able to cast their vote, despite
                                   the problems they described; a few were not.
                                   A chief flaw in the majority report,
                                   however, is that it generally fails to
                                   distinguish between problems of mere
                                   inconvenience, difficulties caused by
                                   bureaucratic inefficiencies, and incidents
                                   of potential discrimination. In this way,
                                   the complaint from the white male voter
                                   whose shoes were muddied on the path to his
                                   polling place is accorded the same degree of
                                   seriousness as the case of the
                                   seeing-impaired voter who required.but was
                                   denied.assistance in reading the ballot, or
                                   the African American voter who claimed she
                                   was turned away from the polls at closing
                                   time while a white man was not."
                          \_ The dissent was written by Thernstrom and
                             Redenbaugh.  The article was written by Kirsanow.
                             \_ Sorry, got that wrong.
           \_ truck in illegals, raise the dead to vote, democrats are
              \_ You can't possibly be comparing election fraud with wholesale
                 voter disenfranchisement based on race.
                 \_ So you think Democrats having the dead vote is ok?  If it
                    was Repuiblicans who raised the dead every 4 years you'd
                    be the first raising hell about it.
                 \_ Since "wholesale voter disenfranchisement based on race"
                    didn't happen...
                    \_ http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch5.htm
                       \_ This was based on felonies (not race), and whites
                          were twice as likely to be incorrectly put on the
                          \_ Uhm, you do realize that whites outnumber blacks
                             by more than a factor of 2x, yes?
                             \_ Lies, damned lies, and statistics.  Yes?
2004/9/20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33645 Activity:moderate
9/20    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/20/eveningnews/main644664.shtml
        Burkett: "I also insisted when I sat down with your staff in the
        first face-to-face session, before I gave up any documents, I wanted
        to know what you were gonna do with them. And I insisted they be
        The failure of CBS News to do just that, to properly, fully scrutinize
        the documents and their source, led to our airing the documents when we
        should not have done so. It was a mistake. CBS News deeply regrets it.
        \_ Then how come Burkett didn't provide CBS the original doc to be
           \_ It's their fault for not insisting on it if they didn't get it.
              They aren't babies.  They are adults with a professional
              responsibility to the public and special Constitutional
           \_ The failure of CBS News to do just that ...
        \_ What a complete disgrace.  The democrats and their media
           sycophants have sunk so low.
           sycophants have sunk so low.  Their behavior completely
           vindicates Zell Miller.
           \_ wherefore art thou trollio?
              \_ "Uh!  It says a bad thing about my media whores!  You must
                  be an evil trooooolll!!!  No content reply required!"
                  \_ so you're saying you aren't a troll?  If you meant
                     every word of what you wrote, then more power to you.
2004/9/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33545 Activity:very high
9/15    Emmanuel Goldstein at the RNC:
        \_ Yeah!  Civil disobedience!  What?  You mean I might get
           arrested for breaking the law?!?  NO FAIR MAN!
           \_ No, you get arrested for not breaking the law.
              Do you seriously support jailing people for their political
              \_ No, I support people being arrested for breaking the law
                 though.  I just pointing out that it's really amusing how
                 protesters always seem to think that civil disobediance
                 should be legal.  I'm not saying that that's what
                 everyone in New York was doing, but it's obvious
                 even from this report that a lot of "civil disobediance"
                 was going on.
                 \_ Goldstein was not breaking any laws.  Did you read the
                 \_ What site did you read?  It sounds to me like a whole bunch
                    of people just got rounded up on the street and arrested
                    for no reason.  Certainly *some* of them were breaking
                    the law, but to just arrest everyone when most are being
                    peaceful and law-abiding is political repression, plain
                    and simple.
                    \_ Well, we're only getting one side of the story. If
                       the NYPD arrested people without charging them, then
                       that's a tort case for illegal imprisonment. One would
                       have to read the charges to get a clearer picture.
                       I wonder what the total number of protestors was, the
                       percentage arrested was probably very small.
                       \_ So you don't see anything vaguely... oppressive
                          about mass roundups and incarceration of people
                          in order to arrest a few scattered people?
                          \_ Interesting, you assume that one side of the
                             story is valid without having heard the other.
                             Since neither you nor I (and please correct
                             me if I'm wrong) have all the facts pertaining
                             to the incident you presuppose that mass
                             oppression has occurred. I suppose it depends
                             on your definition of oppression. If incarceration
                             is simply oppression then all people incarcerated,
                             whether guilty or not, are oppressed. Being
                             detained can definitely be viewed as a type
                             of oppression. However, if you are trying to
                             infer from that that we are living in an
                             oppressive society then I believe that your
                             argument is rather weak. Sure, there is oppression
                             in the criminal justice system. I'm not quite
                             sure how you could have it any other way.
                             At least we don't guillotine people on the spot
                             and afford them the right to due process and
                             a right to seek damages through torts from
                             the government.
                             \_ You may wish to consult Amendment I, regarding
                                "freedom of assembly." [restored]
                                \_ Yer gonna need a permit for that. -troll
                          \_ nah, it didn't happen to supporters of the
                             President so no one cares.  There were no
                             terrorist incidents, either, so it must have
                             been a good policy.  Be proud of NY City's
                             finest! -troll
                       \_ This happens all the time in SF. Last time it
                          did, The City had to pay out $10k to each
                          person illegally incarcerated. I expect NYC
                          to end up doing the same thing. Municipalities
                          probably consider it money well spent. I
                          consider it a violation of civil liberties.
2004/9/14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:33523 Activity:nil
9/14    I like this quote from the dailycal (About the assualt weapon ban:
        "The 10-year-old law, a major achievement of Sen. Dianne
         Feinstein, D-Calif., outlawed the types of weapons used in the
         2000 Columbine High School shooting." 2000 < 10 years ago...
        \_ were the weapons used in the columbine high school
           shootings legally obtained or not?
           \_ Or... maybe they were >10 years old.
        \_ Next on CNN: Sen. Feinstein (D) proposes to prevent another
           9/11-style terrorist attack by outlawing airplanes.
           \_ When airplanes are outlawed, only outlaws will have airplanes.
        \_ We should get right to the heart of the matter and outlaw all
           criminal behavior.  Then only criminals will commit crimes.
        \_ Are you trying to suggest the ban is a bad idea because it did not
           prevent all of the banned weapons from being used?  People are still
           being murdered, maybe we should repeal murder laws.
        \_ It's kind of like stopping terrorism.  You don't really notice how
           many terrorist acts have been preempted from happening.  Similarly,
           you don't notice how many Columbine like incidents have been
           prevented by the "assault" weapon ban.
                \_ it's like sysadm. You don't know how good the sysadms are
                   until your machines crash.   -underappreciated sysadm
        \_ The pubbies are letting the assault weapons ban lapse so that
           "If America shows uncertainty and weakness in this decade, the
           world will drift toward tragedy." -GW Bush
           (nevermind you will need to go out of CA state to get some ...)
2004/9/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33504 Activity:high
9/13    Won't a terrorist attack backfire?  It may unite the country
        behind the current administration
        \_ i'd rather vote Kerry and let the United Nations take care of us
           \_ Poster is incredibly stupid.
        \_ but it will make Osama look /<-rad!
        \_ If Osama and co had an opinion, they would WANT 4 more years
           of Bush.  "The one indespensible ally for Osama bin Laden is
           US Foreign policy."  From _Imperial Hubris_.
           \_ Yes. Things have gone so well for Al Qaeda since 9/11.
              \_ Have you been asleep?  Sure, they lost an ally in the Taliban,
                 but they now have unrivalled support in Iraq, they're making
                 headway back into Afghanistan, and they're swamped with new
                 recruits. Oh, and the US pulled out of Saudi Arabia. Things
                 are looking pretty sweet for AQ these days.
              \_ Read the 9/11 report.  AQ is no longer an organization as
                 such, but a philosophy and an inspiration.  We are
                 k-screwed, even if we do kill Bin Ladin.
2004/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33490 Activity:kinda low
9/13    The 4 Stages of 9-11:  Democrat v. Republican
        \_ The four stages of Ted Rall.
           1) I am so smart
           2) Pubbies are so stupid
           3) I draw great art
           4) Profit!!!
           \_ I challenge you on 3).
              \_ http://www.explodingdog.com
        \_ My O'Reilly-watching younger brother actually mirrors the Republican
           caricature pretty well.  When I showed him the http://drudgereport.com
           video of the reporter blowing up, he said:  "Is he from al-Jazeera?
           Good!"  He routinely makes "kill all of them" statements. -op
2004/9/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33472 Activity:very high
9/11    Happy 9/11 Anniversary! Or, maybe not so happy, I don't know...
        "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that
        says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'"
        [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

        "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time
        on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."
        [President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]
        \_ I am glad you like to edit his speeches because he is so
           difficult to understand.
        \_ You do realize his sentiments simply reflected pretty much that
           of the American public, at the time.  Taking quotes out of context
           won't make a bush voter vote kerry.
2004/9/10 [Transportation/Car, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33455 Activity:high
9/10    I guess we are learning from Britain...
        \_ For all Americans who've not yet visited the UK (it's worst in
           London) and who can't imagine why massive CCTV surveillance is a
           bad thing:
           -It hasn't cut down on violent crime (in fact, the various
            face recognition trials conducted in the UK failed to snag a
            single suspect)
           -It's leading to suggestions of even further surveillance (such
            as satellite monitoring of car "black boxes" by the police, or
            even the ability to shut down a vehicle remotely if it's speeding)
           -Most cameras are connected to their equivalent of the DMV which
            will have a ticket printed and in the mail, fully automatic,
            within seconds of nailing you
           -Fantastic amounts of CCTV footage, supposedly kept confidential
            under "trust us"-type privacy legislation, finds its way into
            sensationalist TV shows not even worthy of fox (like people having
            sex in their car, with voiceovers from the cops watching and
            making fun of them.)
          In short, be very very very afraid.  -John
        \_ More taxes, less effectiveness!  w00t!
2004/9/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic] UID:33443 Activity:high
9/9     Islamic militants attack Austrailian Embassy in Indonesia.
        As usual, they kill a whole lot of innocent civilians, and not
        one Australian.
        \_ It is erroneous to write "as usual ... and not one Australian".
           cf. Bali bombing.  "oooohhh ....!"
2004/9/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33428 Activity:very high
9/8     So after the happy siege, the russians are now saying they will
        launch preemptive strikes against terrorist bases anywhere in the
        world.  Interesting, that. -- ilyas
        \_ Their big terrorist problem is right there and always has been:
           Chechnya.  Putin said he would solve Chechnya five years ago.
           All he is doing now is trying to look like he's in control; there's
           no new policy as far as I can tell.
           \_ Well, I ll give them a year or five.  If the russians are serious,
              I look forward to the world's reaction to russian 'unilateralism'
              with great amusement. -- ilyas
              I'll look forward to the world's reaction to russian
              'unilateralism' with great amusement. -- ilyas
              \_ The UN has already washed its hands of the Chechnya problem,
                 so don't expect any 'unilateralism' comments on activities
                 in Chechnya.  The Iraq problem, OTOH, was being handled by
                 an international coalition.  The US decided to break with
                 that coalition and the policy of containment. Hence the
                 term 'unilateral.'  Ilya, you're smarter than this. Are
                 you just bored?
                 \_ I am sorry, did you miss what russia actually said?
                    Preemptive strikes against bases _anywhere on earth_.
                    Not strikes in Chechnya which is old news, and no one
                    cares.  At this point, the rhetoric itself is amusing me
                    to no end, since it's, you know, American rhetoric.
                    On a slightly unrelated note, comments like 'Ilya, you're
                    smarter than this' are the flip side of the coin with
                    'You are an idiot' printed on the front.  It's a bland
                    tom holubesque insult slightly sugar coated.  You need to
                    work on your habit of going after the man reflexively as a
                    conclusion to anything.  I mean this is the motd so it's
                    ok, but in real life people will sort of stare at you.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ Putin == Strong Soviet Leader!
                       Americans are with the Chechen terrorists, just like
                       supporting the Afghanistan insurgents!
                 \_ Containment?  In what way was the Oil For Stuff program
                    containing anything?  Who was doing this containment?
                    France, Germany, and Russia all had multi-billion dollar
                    deals with Hussein.  They sure as hell weren't helping
                    to contain anything.  Are you talking about Guam or
                    \_ Containing Saddam from being a threat to his neighbors,
                       and to us from the possibility of his giving WMDs to
                       terrorists.  Bush incorrectly concluded he had WMDs
                       because the CIA is supposed to be smarter than him and
                       he thought that was fine.  The world was still looking
                       at a highly circumstantial American case.  And Saddam
                       was not a threat to his neighbors.  Are you a total
                    \_ http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold06272003.html
                       Both the CIA and The State Dept said we had him
                       contained just fine.
                       \_ Apparently the CIA's opinion changed after 9/11.
                          They didn't want Saddam on TV saying, "Take that
                          stupid Americans" and the CIA not having said
                    \_ "And frankly [the sanctions] have worked. He has not
                        developed any significant capability with respect to
                        weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
                        conventional power against his neighbors. So in
                        effect, our policies have strengthened the security
                        of the neighbors of Iraq..." -- Secretary Powell,
                        24 Feb 2001 ... So containment was working until 9/11
                        at which point Bush had an excuse to invade Iraq.
                        \_ Dubya wasn't listening to Powell after 9/11.
                           He was listening to the CIA, "no doubt" Cheney,
                           and "slam-dunk" Tenet.
           \_ And you expected dramatic action a week later?  A week later the
              US was still looking for a target and making speeches.
              \_ Listen, dufus:  The U.S. had an obvious enemy in Afghanistan,
                 and had not done anything yet.  Russia has been stomping all
                 over Chechnya for the last five years and more.
        \_ It is quite understandable that Russians would use this siege
           as an excuse to go after Chechens with links to sesessionalists in
           as an excuse to go after Chechen sesessionalist leaders living in
           other countries. A number of Chechen leaders have received political
           assylum in Europe and Middle east. They might or might not be linked
           to Chechen terrorism. They all deny charges of terrorism but Russia
           claims they all have links to terrorists and demands their
           extradictions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
           extraditions. No credible evidence of terrorist links has been
           presented so far and the Russian requests have been frowned upon.  A
           few months ago, a Chechen ex-president who was living in Qatar was
           assassinated. Qatari intelligence services with the help of CIA
           quickly traced the assassination to the Russian special services.
           Two russian agents have been convicted and sentensed to life in
           prison in Qatar. Russians tried denying any involvment but the
           evidence was overwhelming. What Russians are now saying is that what
           happened in Beslan gives them a moral right to go after Chechen
           leaders living in other countries.  Europeans aren't buying this
           \_ Will the Europeans bring it to the UN when their people start
              getting blown up on a regular basis?  Or just knuckle under and
              elect socialists like Spain who will turtle them up until it's
              too late?  The Islamic world has been fighting against the west
              for a thousand years.  They still are.  It is only now that some
              Western nations have come to realise this.
              \_ Which I guess goes to show how bad the Islamic World is
                 at warfare these days.
                 \_ http://strange.timetrip.net/?entry=throwrocks  -John
                    \_ Would you mind giving a summary of this?  I
                       don't like to watch videos at work.
                       \_ It's about 20 seconds long.  Sight-gag, largely.
              \_ A thousand years?  The Islamic world?  Using the same
                 broad generalizations that fuel statements like those, the
                 Poles are part of an economic powerhouse and empire that
                 has been enslaving and exploiting the third world for 500
                 years, and Laos is part of a technological revolution.
                 \_ The Poles don't make speeches to this day about how they
                    will be retaking Spain.
              \_ When the Europeans start being blown up, then the right
                 thing to do would be to go after the terrorists and I am
                 sure they well. But my point was that it generally appears
                 that Russia is pursuing its own political goals by going
                 after the Chechen leadership in exile. For example,
                 when Russia presented the "evidence" that Aslan Maskhadov's
                 representative, Ahmed Zakaev, is a terrorist, the British
                 laughed so hard that they gave him a political assylum.
                 \_ So it is ok for EU to sit back until they're getting blown
                    up, too?  Then going after terrorists will be ok?  The
                    British have opened the doors and provided legal
                    protection to all sorts of vicious evil human garbage.
                    The Brits giving asylum to someone means little.
              \_ That's the whole point. The Europeans are not getting
                 blown up, nor will they be, because they are no longer
                 imperialists nor do they support Isreal unblinkingly.
                 America still cannot admit to itself that these attacks
                 are the inevitable results of imperial policies.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33363 Activity:very high
9/5     They Knifed Babies, They Raped Girls
        It should be pointed out that Beslan is a small Christian
        enclave among a Muslim population.
        \_ And the Russians raped and killed Chechens, a small Muslim enclave
           ruled by a Christian population. Right?
           \_ No, the Russians didn't rape anyone.  Killing is what happens in
              \_ Well, the Russians have never been famous for their
              |  kinder, gentler military.  (Well, unlesss you're
              |  comparing to the imperialist Japanese)  But they probably
              |  weren't so systematic about it.
       Sigh. Do I really have to dig up links?
       Russian rapes are widely reported, although often without direct proof,
       but do we have direct proof of this "They Raped Girls" allegation?
           \_ I don't ever recall the Russians taking a school and shooting 200
              children in the back, do you?
              \_ Maybe, but they blew up entire villages and so forth. Why
                 split hairs? Fact is the Russians have no justification for
                 being there. It's left over from old Russian imperialism.
                 If the Russians wipe out a village it's fine, but some
                 terrorists take over a school it's unthinkable brutality.
              \_ Look, no one disputes that what the hostage-takers did at the
                 school was dispicable. I think what the pp is trying to point
                 out, though, is that they didn't do it just because they were
                 bored and felt like being evil. To prevent this sort of thing
                 from happening again, you need to understand why it
                 happened in the first place. If you adopt the "all Muslims
                 are evil" posture of these freeper idiots, then there is no
                 \_ It happened because some people *are* evil.  This was it.
                    No one said all muslims are evil.  To prevent this sort of
                    thing from happening again, you need to understand that
                    some people *are* evil, they mut be found, they must be
                    killed before they commit more acts of evil.  You're
                    strawmanning with the all muslims are evil line.
                    \_ "If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously
                       committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to
                       separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.
                       But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the
                       heart of every human being.  And who is willing to
                       destroy a piece of his own heart?"
                       - Alexander Solzhenitsyn
                    \_ Hey, I hear ya. There are people who
                       are just born evil, and there's nothing you
                       can do about it. But I don't think comparing
                       these guys to Son-of-Sam/Zodiac Killer
                       types is entirely correct. Some people are
                       born evil, some people aspire to evilness,
                       and some people have evilness thrust
                       upon them. In which group are these guys?
                       As for "all Muslims are evil", did you read
                       the entire text of the link you posted?:
                       "And to anyone who is appalled at the
                        prospect of killing "innocent" Chechens,
                        these scum didn't grow up in a vacuum.
                        They were raised to be fiends by other
                        fiends. It's us or them."
                       "If the muslims will not police
                        their own, make Mecca Melt."
                       If you want, I can pull even more
                       egregious examples out the
                       freeper bunghole.
                       \_ Woah!  You mean people sometimes post stupid
                          crap on Internet message boards?  No Way!
                          \_ Dude, don't be fatuous. You posted a freeper
                             link, and I made a comment on the content of
                             that link. You then accused me ok creating a
                             strawman argument, and I then posted evidence
                             that I was responding to statements in the
                             link you posted, and now I am somehow to blame
                             for you posting a dumb-ass freeper link? Sheesh.
                             \_ A) I'm not the same guy.  B) Perhaps he
                                was trying to link to the article, not
                                to what a bunch of freepers SAID about the
                                \_ watch how easy it is to link to the
                                   article without linking to freeper
                                   http://csua.org/u/8xo [mirror.co.uk]
                                   that took me all of about 10 seconds.
                 \_ http://www.filibustercartoons.com
        \_ It is not surprising that this attack happened in Beslan and
           not elsewhere. There have been always attacks on Ossetia throughout
           90s and 2000s but most didn't seem to be worthy of coverage to the
           western media (those were mostly explosions on the markers, etc).
           It is quite possible that this time the terrorists were intending to
           instigate ethnic strife in all of Northern Caucasus. Many Ossets
           are already talking about revenge on the Chechen and Ingush peoples
           living in their republic. Beslan is the third largest city of the
           autonomous republic of Northern Ossetia.  Here are some facts that
           put Ossets at odds with the Chechens:
           1. Ossets are predominantly Christian (although there is a small
              muslim minority among Ossets, mostly living around the
              town called Digora).
           2. Ossets are probably the most pro-Russian people on the Northern
              Caucasus. While they are very proud of their Ossetic identity,
              they are also very proud to have been part of USSR and now
              Russia.  (BTW, they are also very proud of the well-known fact
              that Stalin's true father was an Ossetian from South Ossetian
              part of Georgia). In addition Russians seem to favor Ossets in
              their territorial conflicts with the neighboring Ingushetia and
           3. In the early 90s, Ossets have been involved in a short lived
              but very violent territorial conflict with the neighboring
              republic of Ingushetia. Ingush were demanding the return of the
              territories that were taken away from them by Stalin after WW2
              for sympathizing with Germans. During the conflict Ossets
              succeeded in ethnically cleansing their territories from the
              Ingush who have moved in after they were rehabilitated after
              Stalin's death. Nothing has been done to solve this conflict
              since then and both sides consider themselves as victims. It is
              important to note that the Ingush are ethnically very closely
              related to Chechens. (they have similar languages, customs, etc)
              \_ short recent article on the ossentians in The Exile
                 http://www.exile.ru/2004-August-19/war_nerd.html - danh
              \_ Thanks, that was among the most informative posts I've
                 read on the MOTD.  Like information I would expect to
                 find on, gasp, http://freerepublic.com
                 \_ The signal to noise ratio is much higher in places
                    like the Journal of Foreign Affairs.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33359 Activity:moderate
9/5     U.S. Official Says Close to Catching Bin Laden: http://csua.org/u/8xe
        Hey, Boondocks called this moooonths ago.
        \_ I'll predict that he will not be captured before the election.  And
           I'd be grateful if morons would stop informing the press that "we're
           close to" something.  I'm reading the 9/11 commission report, and a
           (pre-9/11) leak to the press at one point caused Bin Laden to change
           his communications and made him much harder to track.
           \_ I agree with you on the general concept but simply saying "we're
              close" for the *th time isn't a big deal.  Been saying that for
              3 years now about every 6 weeks.
           \_ I am also in the middle of reading it(I'm not the dude above.)
              It's worth remembering that if Pakistan hadn't fucked us,
              Bin Laden would've been killed pre-9/11.  I agree with you
              about leaks, but I would also say that the fact that no
              one in the Pakistani gov't is in the loop is neither bad
              nor suprising.
              \_ The report makes it pretty clear that unless the intelligence
                 had been 100% with zero chance of collateral damage, no one
                 would have taken the necessary action to kill OBL before 9/11.
                 But yes, Pakistan was pretty clearly feeding info to OBL.
                 \_ cut and pasted directly from chapter 4 of the 9/11 report:
                    "Later on August 20[1998], Navy vessels in the Arabian Sea
                     fired their cruise missiles.
                     Though most of them hit their intended targets, neither
                     Bin Ladin nor any other terrorist leader was killed.
                     Berger told us that an after-action review by Director
                     Tenet concluded that the strikes had killed 20-30
                     people in the camps but probably missed Bin Ladin by a
                     few hours.Since the missiles headed for Afghanistan had
                     had to cross Pakistan, the Vice Chairman of the Joint
                     Chiefs was sent to meet with Pakistan's army chief of
                     staff to assure him the missiles were not coming from
                     India. Officials in Washington speculated that one or
                     another Pakistani official might have sent a warning to
                     the Taliban or Bin Ladin."
                     \_ That was right after the embassy bombings, when there
                        was a brief flare-up of will.  From p.140: "It was in
                        Kandahar that perhaps the last, and most likely the
                        best, opportunity arose for targeting Bin Ladin with
                        cruise missiles before 9/11. In May 1999, CIA assets in
                        Afghanistan reported on Bin Ladin.s location in and
                        around Kandahar over the course of five days and
                        nights.The reporting was very detailed and came from
                        several sources. If this intelligence was not
                        .actionable,.  working-level officials said at the time
                        and today, it was hard for them to imagine how any
                        intelligence on Bin Ladin in Afghanistan would meet the
                        standard.  Communications were good, and the cruise
                        missiles were ready..This was in our strike zone,. a
                        senior military officer said.  .It was a fat pitch, a
                        home run.. He expected the missiles to fly.When the
                        decision came back that they should stand down, not
                        shoot, the officer said,.we all just slumped.. He told
                        us he knew of no one at the Pentagon or the CIA who
                        thought it was a bad gamble. Bin Ladin .should have
                        been a dead man. that night, he said."
                        \_ The problem with all this is not that it isn't true,
                           I believe it is and I'm both pissed off any highly
                           disappointed in both the GWB and Clinton admins for
                           not nabbing him years ago, it is that by the time
                           they could've hit him in Afghanistan, 9/11 was fated
                           to be.  Killing bin Laden would not have stopped
                           that mission at that point.  Had he been nabbed in
                           the 90s, then yes, probably, but not guaranteed then
                           either.  The real tragedy is that it took 9/11 to
                           understand we were at war.  We'd been attacked
                           dozens of times yet no one (very few) in the West
                           understood or believed.  Most of Western Europe
                           still doesn't get it.  I think the Brits get it,
                           kind of, after the Northern Ireland thing.  The
                           French and Germans and Spanish do not get it at all.
                           The Russians might have just figured it out.  Maybe.
                           The rest are hopeless.
                         \_ UBL! UBL! UBL is the STANDARD! Abbreviation.
2004/9/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33356 Activity:nil
9/4     A sagging economy, endless violence in Iraq, record high oil prices,
                                                     \- not "record high" [yet]
                                                        oil prices were higher
                                                        in early 80s. --psb
        a bad employment picture, an uncertain future, and everybody in the
        world hates us, yet the Democrats are now BEHIND in the polls? WTF?
        What the hell happened? How can the Dems lose both in 2000 and now
        it looks like 2004? Are you guys cursed?
        \_ Perhaps a belief that, as bad as things are, the Democrats
           would have made an even greater mess, and better days are ahead.
        \_ 3% GDP growth and 5.4 % unemployment is a sagging economy?Contrast
           that with Carter's double digit inflation, interest rates, and
           unemployment.  Oil prices will be ~30-35$ per barrel by November.
           Also, maybe this has something to do with it:
           Boy who begged for water was bayoneted
2004/9/4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33349 Activity:kinda low
9/3     Although not funny, it is sort of like the old joke about a Republican
        is a Democrat who got mugged.  Here's Putin finally "getting it":
        \_ Who do you think the remark at the end is aimed at?  -John
        \_ Original post is highly misleading, as Putin has been "tough" on
           Chechen separatists all along, as his main thing was to crush them
           his last five years in office.
           He is having his own mini political catastrophe:  He is
           synonymous with being very tough on the Chechens, and look at
           what it's gotten him?
           I believe Russians will see right through this, even though Putin
           does control the TV and print media these days.
           Washington Post editorial:
           "Russia's abominable behavior has helped spark but does not
           excuse Chechen terrorists and their partners in crime."
           An even better one:
           "On Mr. Yeltsin's watch, the Russian army turned Grozny, the
           Chechen capital, into a ghost town of corpses and rubble. Tens of
           thousands of Chechens fled the country. As we wrote on Tuesday,
           President Vladimir Putin has since made the situation worse,
           launching a second invasion, cutting off the region from aid groups
           and journalists, refusing negotiations, and allowing Russian troops
           to torture and torment Chechen civilians."
           \_ You're confusing the Chechens who may or may not have a valid
              gripe against the Russians with the muslim terrorists who just
              killed about 350 people, all civilians, mostly women and
              children.  Putin is saying he fucked up on terrorism, this has
              little if anything to do with his actions in Chechen territory
              which is a national issue between two lands with defined
2004/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33315 Activity:nil
9/2     http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/02/binladen.wealth.ap/index.html
        Bin Laden didn't support 9/11 afterall.
        \_ rtf911cr
2004/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Security] UID:33308 Activity:nil
9/2     http://csua.org/u/8wm (LA Times)
        A senior Russian security official said authorities are faced with a
        dilemma even worse than the 2002 seizure of the Dubrovka Theater in
        Moscow by Chechen militants, which led to the death of 129 hostages
        and 41 guerrillas when Russian troops gassed the theater and stormed
        in. "The situation is much worse than Dubrovka. Believe me, much worse
        ... It seems almost certain that the hostage-takers are not really
        interested in negotiations, or any demands. So far, we haven't gotten
        any coherent statement of what they really want. ... They are just
        biding their time, as if waiting for us to start storming this school,
        and then they will blow everything up. I think they are ready to blow
        themselves up, together with the hostages, in any case. It seems to be
        their one and only plan."
        So, you are Putin.  What do you do?  Please withold jibes about vodka
        and "In Soviet Russia ...".
        \_ Decimate the Chechens (i.e. kill every 10th).  Do so after every
           terrorist act by the Chechens.
           \_ I read that as Chickens and was very confused...
           \_ "Fear...will keep the local systems in line."
        \_ As far as the current crisis, there is really only 2 options.
           A siege, starve them out, or gas 'em again.  Probably niether
           would be very effiective.  I guess the previous guy's idea
           might work over the long run.
           \_ Why not a standoff while you try to bring in some hostage-taker's
              relatives and religious authority figures and see if they can
              convince them to let everyone go in exchange for amnesty.
              \_ Oooo, family members.  Good idea.  But who's getting the
                 amnesty?  The terrorists or the family members?  North
                 N. Korean style would be to kill the terrorists AND their
                 extended families.
        \_ tactical nukes over rebel hideouts
           \_ Why do you hate thermonuclear weapons?
              \_ You're really a moron, you know that?  You undercut any
                 sensible counter-argument Cheney and friends *could* have.
                 \_ I don't think the thermonuclear comment was made
                    seriously.  You're STILL the moron.
                    \_ Cheney offers to help with Russian hostage
                       situation!  "We have to many of these things
                       anyway, and I've always wanted to drop one or two
                       on Ruskies!"
2004/9/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, ERROR, uid:33292, category id '18005#6.25625' has no name! , ] UID:33292 Activity:high
9/2     Democrats, You over slept - It isn't 9/10 Anymore!
        \_ So what you're saying is, 9/11 changed everything?  I haven't heard
           that one before!
           \_ He's saying your party didn't notice.
              \_ God, grow up freeper.  Did I say that I was a Democrat?
                 \_ Did I say I was a freeper?  I'm probably wrong.  You're
                    likely to be too far left for the Democrats.  I'm sorry
                    if I insulted a socialist by calling them a Democrat.
        \_ Gosh, I'm not sure I got the point of all of those speeches at
           the RNC.  Maybe if they'd held it on September 11, the point would
           have been clear.
        \_ "...enviro wacko's [sic]..." "...job loses [sic]..."
           "...full years [sic] economic activity..."
           The guy's a moron.
2004/8/31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33243 Activity:kinda low
8/30    All right, I googled for the "$8 million" to re-sod Central Park,
        but I didn't find anything.  Please help.
        \_ jesus fucking christ, youy're a dumbass. second link from google:
           They say 18 million.  whatever.
           \_ What's your problem?  I asked nicely.
              \_ ok, sorry.  nothing personal, i just hate everyone.
        \_ 100,000 protestors... 100,000 America-hating liberals, all in one
           convenient location, in a major landmark of a city known to be a
           terrorist target. What a waste of opportunity!
           \_ This joke telegraphed itself about a mile ahead. I was
              waiting looking at my watch for this sad mule to finally
              pull into the freaking station and ring the bell, already. --acs
              \_ Sorry. Wasn't feeling very sassy today.
2004/8/30 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33227 Activity:nil 57%like:34578
8/30    What would a terrorist attack in NYC do to the election?
        How about if it came in Houston?
2004/8/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33214 Activity:very high
8/29    John Ashcroft, censoring quotes from the Supreme Court:
        http://csua.org/u/8ta (The Memory Hole)
        \_ Citizen!  You will be added to President Ashcroft's Official
           Post-Coup Blacklist!
        \_ What don't you protest against Osama?
        \_ What don't you protest against Osama?  Civil liberties
           are unequivocally the most extensive that they have ever been
           in this country.
           \_ Osama is against BushCo and so am I.  Kerry in 2004!
              \_ What evidence do you have for Osama being against BushCo?
                 \_ Freak.  It was sarcasm.
           \_ Repeat after me: it is possible to see that BOTH Osama and
              Ashcroft are separately and simultaneously dangerous to our
              health and safety.
           \_ Unequivocally? There's a secret travel blacklist that prevents
              some citizens from travelling without being subjected to
              humiliating searches and questioning, and the FBI has been
              questioning people on what they've been seen reading in public.
              See, I seem to remember not having this situation in, say, 1994.
           \_ I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but your suggestion that civil
              liberties are more extensive than they've ever been is laughable.
              1.  Uncontestable secret access to you book-buying and library
              2.  Terrorism suspects denied lawyers on the grounds that the
                  lawyer could be told secret information by the suspect.
              3.  Terrorism suspects denied exculpatory evidence and subject
                  to hearsay testimony.
              4.  Shopper escorted out of a mall for wearing a 'Peace' T-shirt.
              5.  Quarter-million person protest denied a permit to protest
                  because it would HURT THE GRASS.
              Why don't you ask the civil liberties watchdogs before mouthing
              off about how free we are.
              \_ #4 is hilarious because it has nothing to do with civil
                 liberties.  A store is a private place that can remove you
                 for any reason at all.  #5 you're leaving out the part that
                 they spent roughly $8 million to fix/replace the grass about
                 7 years ago and the $8 million is too high a price to pay
                 so you can stomp around yelling about no blood for oil or
                 whatever this year's kewl protest statement is.
                 \_ Look at you. You're pathetic. You just got fucking
                    owned. This is the best you can do? Get bent. --aaron
                    \_ owned?  uhm ok, whenever you stop smoking, let us know.
                       i tore apart the 2 easy items so i got owned? whatever.
                    \_ Hi bigot!
                       \_ Hi brownshirt!
        \_ Um, that's a letter FROM the ACLU *to* the court.
           \_ Yes, but the relevant quote is from the Supreme Court (US vs.
              US District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan)
              \_ Was it really from the court or was it a summary?  I don't
                 have the original to compare it.
                 \_ Direct quote.  Here's the original (from FindLaw):
        \_ When you show weakness, terrorists win! -dubya
           \_ Please tell me, how is this not true? In life as
              well as war. Boy has living in Berkeley made you
              into a beatnik.
2004/8/29 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33203 Activity:nil
8/28    For those of you who are wondering why conservitives tend to
        assume liberals hate america, go down and check out the
        magazines at Berkeley Bowl.  The articles all have titles like,

        "The Evils of Capitalism" and "Why the American Empire can't
        last" etc.  They sound exactly like islamic terrorists.  You
        could do a word replace script on a statement of Bin Laden's,
        replacing [America will be destroyed because they] "Don't follow
        the teachings of Allah" with "Don't follow the teachings of
        Nature/Mother Earth/Pychology/Sociology/etc" and get an article
        for one of these mags.
        \_ Speaking of hateful rants...
        \_ Not everyone on the left is a liberal.
        \_ Smart liberals know that dumb liberals are what makes conservatives
           \_ If you listen to Herr Lakoff, what makes conservatives
              conservative is their dominant metaphor:
              If you listen to me, what makes a conservative is what makes
              anybody else -- a choice of a moral system. -- ilyas
2004/8/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33124 Activity:nil 68%like:33116
8/24    Two Russian passenger jets, taking off from same Moscow airport,
        crash within five minutes of each other.  One sent out a hijacking
        signal before going down.  90+ feared dead.
        \_ It's a Bush dirty trick!  Rove secretly bribed the pilots to
           crash the planes so they can run ads to discredit Kerry.
           \_ Nah, the only dirty trick we're expecting is capturing Osama
              before the election, and other fiddling with the color-coded
              alert system. (I think all major points of interest will go
              Orange 2-4 weeks before the election).
              \_ You think they have bin Laden in prison some where and will
                 trot him out in late October?  And no one has leaked this?
                 \_ nah are you some right-wing weenie?  guess again.
        \_ If terrorism is involved, I would say its highly likely to be
           Chechen rebels.  They have committed plenty of terrorist acts
           before.  Also, this is a RUSSIAN airline we are talking about, so
           you can't rule out massive equipment failure.
           \_ Don't forget the pilots, drinking vodka and letting kids take
              over the plane!
              \_ kids?
              \_ Da Comrade, one for me, one for plane.
2004/8/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33116 Activity:nil 68%like:33124
8/24    Two Russian passenger jets, taking off from same Moscow airport,
        disappear from radar within five minutes of each other.  One verified
        crash, the other missing.  100+ feared dead.
        \_ It's a Bush dirty trick!  Rove secretly bribed the pilots to
           crash the planes so they can run ads to discredit Kerry.
           \_ Nah, the only dirty trick we're expecting is capturing Osama
              before the election, and other fiddling with the color-coded
              alert system. (I think all major points of interest will go
              Orange 2-4 weeks before the election).
              \_ You think they have bin Laden in prison some where and will
                 trot him out in late October?  And no one has leaked this?
                 \_ nah are you some right-wing weenie?  guess again.
        \_ If terrorism is involved, I would say its highly likely to be
           Chechen rebels.  They have committed plenty of terrorist acts
           before.  Also, this is a RUSSIAN airline we are talking about, so
           you can't rule out massive equipment failure.
           \_ Don't forget the pilots, drinking vodka and letting kids take
              over the plane!
              \_ kids?
              \_ Da Comrade, one for me, one for plane.
2004/8/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:33028 Activity:nil
8/19    Pakistan does it right:  Torture is all these killers deserve!
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32931 Activity:high
8/16    Orson Scott Card rambling book review/essay, that eventually comes
        to an interesting synthesis between republican and Democrat views
        on the war on terror.
        \_ Hi emarkp!
           \_ WRong, but nice try. -op
           \_ Indeed, I hadn't even seen this article yet (though I read the
              column, the current one was just posted).  -emarkp
        \_ Wait, let me get my hat and my magic stones!
           \_ Hi aaron!
              \_ Hi ilyas!
2004/8/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32907 Activity:very high
8/14    Norman Podhoretz, "World War IV: How it Started, What it Means, and
        Why We Have to Win". http://www.commentarymagazine.com/podhoretz.htm
        The reason I post this is not because I believe or disbelieve his
        historical world view.  The reason to read this is to get an all-in-one
        -place summary of every terrorist attack going back to the 70s.  I
        found the number of attacks shocking.  I knew about each one but I have
        never seen them together like this.
        \_ Good article, a few serious errors though (ex.: Khomeini's
           motivation to not have the Soviet embassy stormed--USSR was not
           a major sponsor of the Shah.)  Also, he makes a common mistake--
           "sneers and jeers" are not directed at the Bush speech use of
           "good" and "evil", but rather at ham-fisted and faulty (and
           dishonest and ineffective) response to these.  -John
        \_  You haven't read the 9/11 commission report, have you?  read it.
            everything in your article is covered in much greater detail, and
            without the partisan noise.  Pundits love to trash the 9/11
            report because if people actually read stuff like that they'd
            be out of a job(which they should be.)
            ok, i retract my attack on your article; it's actually pretty
            interesting.  Everyone should still read the 9/11 report.
            \_ I didn't read the report, true.  Is there a historical summary
               of events section?  It's not my article.  I'm just posting for
               the historical summary part.  I don't accept or deny the rest
               of it.  -op
               \_ read it. seriously.  All the pundits are trying to spin it
                  as being useless because it doens't trash the politician
                  they hate(be it clinton or bush), but just sticks to the
                  facts.  It gives all the historical background on the
                  attacks in your article, all kinds of background info
                  on al qaeda, lots of relevant information on how the structure
                  of our government is or isn't set up to deal with terrorism,
                  and some basic American history that everyone should
                  know but probably most people don't.  And that's just from
                  the first five chapters i've read so far.  It also gives
                  a blow-by-blow narrative of *exactly* what happened on 9-11-01
                  that I don't think you'll find anywhere else.
        \_ Good article, thank you. -- ilyas
        \_ [ troll gone ]
        \_ "What Clarke for all practical purposes did--both at the hearings
           and in his hot-off-the-press book, Against All Enemies--was to blame
           Bush, who had been in office for a mere eight months when the attack
           occurred, while exonerating Clinton, who had spent eight long years
           doing little of any significance in response to the series of
           terrorist assaults on American targets in various parts of the world
           that were launched on his watch."
           Clarke did blame Bush, but the rest is flat-out wrong.  You guys
           should all know this when you read it.

It's so sad that Americans still don't get it.  What
           happened to
2004/8/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32890 Activity:high
8/13    I think terrorists are spamming me.
        \_ As a representative of the President of Nigeria, I have a special
           opportunity for you.
           \_ Ex-president that is.
2004/8/11 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32844 Activity:nil 84%like:32820
8/11    Al Qaeda plans to assassinate a major western leader when Osama gives
        the go-ahead. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040811-123531-3824r.htm
        I'll bet anything they're going after Kerry.  If I was bin Laden, the
        \- "we had to incarcerate the candidate to save him"
        last person in the world I'd want as President of the US would be a
        war hero who promised to fight a more 'sensitive war on terror'.  Run,
        John!  Run!
        Hey, this sounds familiar:
        "The goal of the next attack is twofold: to damage the U.S. economy
        and to undermine the U.S. election," the official said. "The view of
        al Qaeda is 'anybody but Bush.' "
        \_ "The one unrelaceable assett for al Quaeda is US FOreign policy",
           if al Qaueda is for "anyone but bush", they are dumber than I
           thought.  Iraq was a christmas present for Osama.
           \_ Sure was. Why go for the Americans near Mecca when we can
              tryfor the U.S. itself ! Committing terrorism is so much
              more effective thousands of miles away from America.
           \_ It's pretty obvious Al Qaeda is dumb. -- ilyas
              \_ What about the scores of pages describing potential targets
                 written in perfect English found in the latest arrest?
                 (e.g., can't get a truck in the garage, drive a limo instead)
                 \_ You are missing the forest for the trees.  There's no doubt
                    Al Qaeda is smart enough to organize 911, etc.
                    Nevertheless, something about the way they are going about
                    their business that strikes me as fundamentally dumb.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ Targeting a high-profile individual for assassination,
                       when there are so many out there that you can't always
                       protect, is dumb?
                       Please identify what is fundamentally dumb.
                       \_ Any extremist organization is fundementally dumb.
                          If they were smart they wouldn't be extremist.
                       \_ Ok.  Say they succeed.  They assassinate Bush.
                          Or set off a dirty nuke in Los Angeles or something.
                          What will this get them?  America already isn't very
                          happy with the Arab world, and even Arab Americans.
                          Do you realize what will happen?  We will most likely:
                          (a) institute the draft (probably won't be necessary
                          with the volume of volunteers)
                          (b) convert to war footing a la WWII
                          (c) absolutely SQUISH the entire Middle East, and
                              possibly institute a long term occupation.
                          Is this what Al Qaeda is trying to accomplish?
                          Because that's what it's going to get -- a really
                          pissed off US in their backyard for 20, 30, 50 years.
                          I think people underestimate the US.  The US has an
                          itchy trigger finger kind of frontier culture, to
                          this day.  The US also has the industrial and
                          scientific resources to basically impose their will
                          on most of the world, and if the US perceives itself
                          to be in genuine danger, woe be to everyone else.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ That's all very nice and melodramatic but an
                             assassination cannot produce such a reaction.
                             There (probably) would not be any link to any
                             national entity. Go after the Saudis? America
                             is very cozy with the Saudis and will not just
                             "go and squish" them based on an Al Qaeda attack.
                             \_ Sure, but eventually, Al Qaeda will do enough
                                damage where the US feels genuinely threatened.
                                What then?  How do they hope to win?  It's
                                completely stupid.  You don't want to fight
                                the US.  -- ilyas
                                \_ How do you target al Qaeda?  We already
                                   took out Afghanistan, and are making sure
                                   Iran doesn't get nukes.
                          \_ You do understand that al Qaeda wants a war of the
                             U.S. vs. the Arab world, right?  You do understand
                             that they understand that the U.S. has a
                             superior military capability, and will win in any
                             conventional conflict between nations?  So why
                             then, do they continue?  I don't think it's
                             because "Al Qaeda is dumb".
                             \_ I think it is.  If it truly becomes a
                                free-for-all between US and Arabs, US nukes the
                                Arabs.  Game over.  Al Qaeda is trying to
                                provoke the power that can take on all of the
                                rest of the world put together, most likely.
                                They are irrational religious fanatics obsessed
                                with 'holy war.'  If their wildest dreams come
                                true, this 'holy war' will only get them, and
                                likely most other (innocent) Arabs killed.
                                Al Qaeda is dumb.  -- ilyas
                                \_ Well, you overwrote my post, but let's say
                                   al Qaeda assassinates Bush.  Just how does
                                   the U.S. decide "the Arab world" is the
                                   culprit, and then justify:  "SQUISH the
                                   entire Middle East".
                                   \_ I always love it when people accuse me
                                      of overwriting their posts.  Or writing
                                      stuff on the motd when I am really
                                      asleep.  You must have spyware in my
                                      head or something.  As for the US,
                                      a blow up of two buildings resulting in
                                      the US invading 2 countries.  If serious
                                      attacks continue, the invasions continue.
                                      The 'Arab World' is a hotbed of religious
                                      fundamentalism which results in things
                                      like Al Qaeda.  The US can reasonably
                                      conclude that one way to fight
                                      fundamentalism is take over the Middle
                                      East and institute reforms that way,
                                      rather than wait for history. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Dude, ilyas, you just overwrote my
                                         post again.  How are you editing
                                         the motd?
                                         \_ I also peed in your sink and slept
                                            with yermom. -- ilyas
                                            \_ I ask you again, how are you
                                               editing the motd?  I notice
                                               you were using vi a second ago,
                                               but I have a suspicion you were
                                               using something else earlier
                                               today.  I mean, c'mon, I was
                                               editing this thread, posted
                                               a comment, and 30 seconds later
                                               it's gone and in its place
                                               is your post.  This happened
                                               twice in this very thread.
                                               \_ I always use vi from soda.
                                                  I think your post got
                                                  overwritten because you
                                                  simply were editing during a
                                                  busy time.  Mine get
                                                  overwritten too, for the
                                                  same reason.  Blaming the
                                                  guy you are immediately
                                                  talking to is stupid -- lots
                                                  of conversations are happening
                                                  at the same time.  -- ilyas
                                                  \_ So I have your word of
                                                     honor that you are very
                                                     certain you did not
                                                     overwrite this thread
                                                     today while using vi?
                                                     vi should print warnings;
                                                     what command are you
                                                     using to save?  You aren't
                                                     using :w! I hope.
                                                     \_ I use :w.  Vi gives
                                                        warnings.  -- ilyas
                                                        \_ hm, I guess I don't
                                                           have your word yet.
                                                           \_ No you don't.  But
                                                              feel free to blame
                                                              me anyways.
                                                               -- ilyas
                                        \_ US can nuke the entire Arab world,
                                           but occupying it is beyond US's
                                           ability.  It would bleed the US
                                           to death financially.  But yes,
                                           I agree with you than Islamic
                                           fundamentalism is a dead end.  But
                                           those people think they don't have
                                           another choice, or rather, the
                                           only other choice seems to be
                                           the corrupt crony regimes like
                                           Saudi Arabia, which they want to
                        \_ No way that 4% of the world's population can enforce
                           its will on the other 96%. Especially when some of
                           that 96% is armed with nukes.
           \_ Yep.  Check out this translation of an interview with Osama's
              former bodyguard in the London Arabic paper Al-Quds Al-Arabi
           \_ But the problem is that Osama is not Christian.
        \_ For the tinfoil hat crowd, ponder this: Bush assassinates Kerry
           before the election and pins the blame on bin Laden.
           \_ Nonono ... that would be Cheney orchestrating the plot.
              Bush wouldn't have a clue.
2004/8/11 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32820 Activity:very high 84%like:32844
8/10    Al Qaeda plans to assassinate a major western leader when Osama gives
        the go-ahead. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040811-123531-3824r.htm
        I'll bet anything they're going after Kerry.  If I was bin Laden, the
        last person in the world I'd want as President of the US would be a
        war hero who promised to fight a more 'sensitive war on terror'.  Run,
        John!  Run!
        Hey, this sounds familiar:
        "The goal of the next attack is twofold: to damage the U.S. economy
        and to undermine the U.S. election," the official said. "The view of
        al Qaeda is 'anybody but Bush.' "
        \_ Man, that would make a good campaign ad for Bush.  "The terrorists
           say, 'anybody but Bush.'  What do YOU say?"
           \_ Maybe Bush is one reason they're attacking us in the first
                \_ Maybe Bush has put the fear of god into them?
                   \_ Haha, that's a good one.
              \_ In the first place?  Where were you during the Clinton
        \_ "The one unrelaceable assett for al Quaeda is US FOreign policy",
           if al Qaueda is for "anyone but bush", they are dumber than I
           thought.  Iraq was a christmas present for Osama.
           \_ It's pretty obvious Al Qaeda is dumb. -- ilyas
              \_ What about the scores of pages describing potential targets
                 written in perfect English found in the latest arrest?
                 (e.g., can't get a truck in the garage, drive a limo instead)
                 \_ You are missing the forest for the trees.  There's no doubt
                    Al Qaeda is smart enough to organize 911, etc.
                    Nevertheless, something about the way they are going about
                    their business that strikes me as fundamentally dumb.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ Targeting a high-profile individual for assassination,
                       when there are so many out there that you can't always
                       protect, is dumb?
                       Please identify what is fundamentally dumb.
                       \_ Any extremist organization is fundementally dumb.
                          If they were smart they wouldn't be extremist.
                       \_ Ok.  Say they succeed.  They assassinate Bush.
                          Or set off a dirty nuke in Los Angeles or something.
                          What will this get them?  America already isn't very
                          happy with the Arab world, and even Arab Americans.
                          Do you realize what will happen?  We will most likely:
                          (a) institute the draft (probably won't be necessary
                          with the volume of volunteers)
                          (b) convert to war footing a la WWII
                          (c) absolutely SQUISH the entire Middle East, and
                              possibly institute a long term occupation.
                          Is this what Al Qaeda is trying to accomplish?
                          Because that's what it's going to get -- a really
                          pissed off US in their backyard for 20, 30, 50 years.
                          I think people underestimate the US.  The US has an
                          itchy trigger finger kind of frontier culture, to
                          this day.  The US also has the industrial and
                          scientific resources to basically impose their will
                          on most of the world, and if the US perceives itself
                          to be in genuine danger, woe be to everyone else.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ That's all very nice and melodramatic but an
                             assassination cannot produce such a reaction.
                             There (probably) would not be any link to any
                             national entity. Go after the Saudis? America
                             is very cozy with the Saudis and will not just
                             "go and squish" them based on an Al Qaeda attack.
                             \_ Sure, but eventually, Al Qaeda will do enough
                                damage where the US feels genuinely threatened.
                                What then?  How do they hope to win?  It's
                                completely stupid.  You don't want to fight
                                the US.  -- ilyas
                                \_ How do you target al Qaeda?  We already
                                   took out Afghanistan, and are making sure
                                   Iran doesn't get nukes.
                          \_ You do understand that al Qaeda wants a war of the
                             U.S. vs. the Arab world, right?  You do understand
                             that they understand that the U.S. has a
                             superior military capability, and will win in any
                             conventional conflict between nations?  So why
                             then, do they continue?  I don't think it's
                             because "Al Qaeda is dumb".
                             \_ I think it is.  If it truly becomes a
                                free-for-all between US and Arabs, US nukes the
                                Arabs.  Game over.  Al Qaeda is trying to
                                provoke the power that can take on all of the
                                rest of the world put together, most likely.
                                They are irrational religious fanatics obsessed
                                with 'holy war.'  If their wildest dreams come
                                true, this 'holy war' will only get them, and
                                likely most other (innocent) Arabs killed.
                                Al Qaeda is dumb.  -- ilyas
                                \_ Well, you overwrote my post, but let's say
                                   al Qaeda assassinates Bush.  Just how does
                                   the U.S. decide "the Arab world" is the
                                   culprit, and then justify:  "SQUISH the
                                   entire Middle East".
                                   \_ I always love it when people accuse me
                                      of overwriting their posts.  Or writing
                                      stuff on the motd when I am really
                                      asleep.  You must have spyware in my
                                      head or something.  As for the US,
                                      a blow up of two buildings resulting in
                                      the US invading 2 countries.  If serious
                                      attacks continue, the invasions continue.
                                      The 'Arab World' is a hotbed of religious
                                      fundamentalism which results in things
                                      like Al Qaeda.  The US can reasonably
                                      conclude that one way to fight
                                      fundamentalism is take over the Middle
                                      East and institute reforms that way,
                                      rather than wait for history. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Dude, ilyas, you just overwrote my
                                         post again.  How are you editing
                                         the motd?
                                         \_ I also peed in your sink and slept
                                            with yermom. -- ilyas
                                            \_ I ask you again, how are you
                                               editing the motd?  I notice
                                               you were using vi a second ago,
                                               but I have a suspicion you were
                                               using something else earlier
                                               today.  I mean, c'mon, I was
                                               editing this thread, posted
                                               a comment, and 30 seconds later
                                               it's gone and in its place
                                               is your post.  This happened
                                               twice in this very thread.
                                               \_ I always use vi from soda.
                                                  I think your post got
                                                  overwritten because you
                                                  simply were editing during a
                                                  busy time.  Mine get
                                                  overwritten too, for the
                                                  same reason.  Blaming the
                                                  guy you are immediately
                                                  talking to is stupid -- lots
                                                  of conversations are happening
                                                  at the same time.  -- ilyas
                                                  \_ So I have your word of
                                                     honor that you are very
                                                     certain you did not
                                                     overwrite this thread
                                                     today while using vi?
                                                     vi should print warnings;
                                                     what command are you
                                                     using to save?  You aren't
                                                     using :w! I hope.
                                                     \_ I use :w.  Vi gives
                                                        warnings.  -- ilyas
                                                        \_ hm, I guess I don't
                                                           have your word yet.
                                                           \_ No you don't.  But
                                                              feel free to blame
                                                              me anyways.
                                                               -- ilyas
                        \_ No way that 4% of the world's population can enforce
                           its will on the other 96%. Especially when some of
                           that 96% is armed with nukes.
           \_ Yep.  Check out this translation of an interview with Osama's
              former bodyguard in the London Arabic paper Al-Quds Al-Arabi
           \_ But the problem is that Osama is not Christian.
        \_ For the tinfoil hat crowd, ponder this: Bush assassinates Kerry
           before the election and pins the blame on bin Laden.
           \_ Nonono ... that would be Cheney orchestrating the plot.
              Bush wouldn't have a clue.
2004/8/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:32790 Activity:very high
8/9     Wow, the FBI really does need reforming. If this is all true,
        they should just tear the whole thing down and start over
        from scratch:
        \_Reminds me of the story where Israeli translators fluent in
          Arabic were shunned because they were Jewish, and it
          wouldn't look right.
        \_ Must be Clinton-appointed people, or at least inspired by him.
              I HATE THAT MANLY THROBBING CLENIS. --Typical Freeper
        \_ Well, the FBI said she was fired because of her disruptive behavior.
           While I have no way to know who is lying (maybe both?), there are
           those paranoid people who run around doing no work but making
           accusations until they are fired and then make an even bigger fuss.
2004/8/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:32758 Activity:insanely high
8/7     Anyone know this guy?
        \_ Hopefully no one will know this loser.
            \_Loser or not, I think it's rather instructive on how
              terrorism works. Terrorism would've never worked before
              there was a popular press and technology has made
              terrorism that much more effective as a propoganda tool.
              Now anybody with a webcam can become a jihadist.
              \_ it worked in spain quite recently.
              \_ terrorism never worked?  Terrorism has been around
                 for centries.  check out the word "assassin" and find out
                 where is that word from.
              \_ Using terror as a weapon works quite well.  Genghis Khan and
                 his ilk noticed this a long time ago.  Back in the old days
                 a lot of battle armor designs were meant to intimidate the
                 opponents.  The Picts fought naked as an intimidation
                 measure, the Mongols made piles of human heads, etc. etc.
                 Modern 'terrorism' is a nasty and irrationally collectivist
                 version of the old warriorship idea that attacking the mind
                 is more effective than attacking the body.  ('Irrationally
                 collectivist' because modern terrorists attack societies as
                 a whole, and that is counterproductive in settings other than
                 total war).  -- ilyas
              \_ it worked in spain quite recently.
                       \- well ignorning the first law of internet warfare,
                          "never get into an argument with someone in grad
                          school; they have more free time than you" ...
                          i dont see the relevance of most of your historical
                          examples. terrorism isnt just using psychological
                          intimidation techniques. i'd suggest it is a
                          combination of attacking civilian morale and
                          avoiding direct military confrontation. when the
                          roman army in 146 bc "salted the earth" at carthage
                          and sold off much of the population of corinth into
                          slavery, these flowed from direct military conflicts.
                          when a group avoid *direct* military conflict but
                          engages in indirect fighting, that is better
                          described as guerilla warfare than terrorism.
                          spain bombing: terrorism, clearly. i dont think
                          it's productive to call the viking raiders or
                          g. khan terrorists. they were more looters
                          and thugs. if an IRA "terrorist" assassinated a
                          british military person, that is probably guerilla
                          warfare. if he put a bomb in the london underground,
                          that is terrorism. if he shoots a bar owner in
                          belfast for serving british troops, that's murder.
                          \_ My thesis is 'terrorism is an old phenomenon.'  It
                             still holds if we take your definition.  It's as
                             old as fighting empires, where direct military
                             confrontation is infeasible. -- ilyas
                             confrontation is infeasible.  Also, I think there
                             is a definite connection between 'terrorism' and
                             'looters and thugs.'  Also, I am having a hard time
                     'looters and thugs.'  Also, I am having a hard time
                             seeing the line you see between guerilla warfare
                             and terrorism, especially if the former targets
                             civilians (and it often does).  Is terrorism just
                             'guerilla warfare with bombs?' -- ilyas
                             \- no, it has to do with target selection.
                                shoot/snipe and run [vietcong, american
                                revolutionaries etc] is guerella tactics
                                when aiming at military-related targets.
                                random/civilian targetting for a political
                                goal is closer to terrorism. i suppose there
                                has to be some element or organization and
                                some threashold goal ... i wouldnt call the
                                unabomber or the washington sniper pair
                                terrorists. maybe the weather underground,
                                but they were pretty stupid and incompetent.
                \_ The Czars and their cossacks were very capable terrorists.
      \_ As an aside, I heard a great story about one of Genghis Khan's
         battle tactics.  His army surrounded a city and said that if
         the citizens delivered 10,000 cats to the army along with some
         gold and other treasure, they would move on and not attack.  The
         citizens complied.  Genghis Khan then had his army tie rags to
         the tails of the cats, light them on fire and release the cats.
         The cats fled back to their homes in the city and the entire
         city started to burn.  In the ensuing chaos, Khan's army easily
         conquered the city.
                   \- there are lots of stories like this. see e.g.
                      ~psb/MOTD/SultanTughlak. However if you think this
                      or the tzarist repression is terrorism, you misuse/
                      misunderstand the word. tyranny != terrorism. --psb
         \_ KAAAAAAAAAAHN!!!
         \_ Now that's psych-warfare.
2004/8/4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32686 Activity:nil
8/4     I've seen it claimed on the motd that Sandy Berger has been
        cleared and that Bush has military documents he can release but
        hasn't. I've asked for links substantiating both these claims,
        but have not receieved a single response.  Not even a blog link.
        Can I conclude that these are silly lies now?
        \_ Christ, just quit bitching and google.
           \_ Oooookay... so I knew this.  But I thought the claim was
              that Bush's records of 72-73 were MISSING....
              \_ I believe the beef that AP has with the Bush records is that
                 he didn't grant them the rights to the records, he requested
                 his own copy and then forwarded them with the wax stamp
                 unsealed, so to speak.
        \_ I do not think Bush has released all possible military records
        \_ Dewd, there are a lot of unverified claims on soda, and some
           posts that debunk them and tell you exactly why.  Berger has been
           cleared of obstructing the 9/11 commission by 9/11 commission
           representatives; the Archives people are still deciding what to do
           about Berger violating Archives policy on notetaking and removing
           classified photocopies.
           \_ Thank you, I wasn't able to find that link.
        \_ Kerry has not released all of his military records.
           \_ Yeah, so what we have is:
              Bush claims he has released all relevant records.  It can perhaps
              never be verified that he did or did not.
              Kerry has said he has released all military records, but from
              press reports, reviews by superior officers were not made
              available (unclear why).
              \_ and medical records related to his medals.
2004/8/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:32651 Activity:high 76%like:32656
8/3     Orange alert info pre-dates 9/11
        officials "reported that they had not yet found concrete evidence that
        a terror plot or preparatory surveillance operations were still under
        \_ Okay.  What should we conclude from that?
           \_ That the orange alert is politically timed?
           \_ That the timing is, again, dubious.  Old information trotted
              out after a major event for the other side.
              \_ It's not old information.  The files were updated *this* year.
                 Furthermore, 9/11 was planned for years.  So it's NEW
                 information to us, and the fact that some was originally
                 planned years ago doesn't simply mean that it might be
                 outdated, but that it might be close to fruition.
                 \_ Be nice to the op.  I don't think he's very good at
                    reading comprehension.
                    \_ No such thing as facts, only an interpretation of the
                       facts, huh?  Its pretty funny to watch the freepers try
                       to defend the credibility of Tom Ridge as it approaches
                       \_ What are you talking about?  The NYT article
                          makes it pretty clear what was going on.  Just
                          because the info is a few years old, doesn't
                          mean it's out-of-date.
                          \_ No, but it's not news.  The announcement is for
                             areas that are already in an elevated state of
                             alert.  This was yet another "we're still doing
                             stuff" announcement.  Also, by virtue of predating
                             9/11, any surveillence from then would be more
                             or less useless because we've changed and improved
                             the security measures... right?
        \_ Hilarious.  Every major news outlet is carrying this story in one
           form or another...except for Fox News.  Their headline is "lady
           liberty reopens to public."  The story doesn't seem to appear
           anywhere on their site.
           \_ So there really *is* a news bias?
           \_ Informed. Powerful. Huge Penis.
              \_ could someone please explain the HUGE, TAX FREE PENIS thing?
                 what is that a reference to?
                 \_ In re: Ann Coulter it's a reference to the fact that some
                    motder(s?) like her and the only plausible reason for
                    liking a woman who admires Joe McCarthy is that they want
                    to have sex with a reasonably hot arch-conservative, so
                    the retort is "Oh!  Your penis is so BIG and TAX FREE!".
                    \_ So you're saying this originated on the motd?
                    \_ Nice straw man.
2004/8/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32636 Activity:nil
8/2     I almost misread this quote on CNN pull: "Will President Bush's
        intelligence help thwart terrorist attacks?". I missed the
        'reform' between intelligence and help. :)
        \_ Bush = Strong Leader ; Kerry = Flip-flopper
           \_ Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
              \_its what drives the Liberal media, it seems to work.
                it brainwashed you twink.
                \_ I think you are more brainwashed than you think.
                   \_ Anybody who thinks the media is liberal is out
                      of touch with reality.
2004/7/30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32584 Activity:high
        9/11 commission report -- they don't portray the intent like this
        book does.  I have postponed reading it up to today.
        \_ The timing of this information is very suspicious...
        \_ The timing of this information is very suspicious... why on
           sysadmin appreciation day?
           \_ It's to distract us from our day with off topic propaganda.
              Clearly this is a plot by the <insert political group directly
              opposed to your agenda> to destroy Sysadmin Credibilty Around
              The World For Generations To Come!
        \_ Tenet has lost SO much credibility because of the "slam dunk"
           claim.  That statement was 90-99% bogus, based on the assessments
           at the time by the CIA
           \_ Yep.  And he's the guy the President relies on for information.
              Should Bush have jogged over to CIA HQ and started quizzing
              individual intel analysts?
              \_ "When McLaughlin concluded, there was a look on the
                 president's face of, What's this? And then a brief moment of
                 silence. ... 'Nice try,' Bush said. 'I don't think this is
                 quite -- it's not something that Joe Public would understand
                 or would gain a lot of confidence from.'"
2004/7/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32552 Activity:insanely high
7/28    Who provides the cheapest wireless plan?  (for emergencies only)
        \_ How often doyou have emergencies?  I ask because a coworker's wife
           apparently has daily emergencies around lunch time.
           \_ That's when the milkman arrives at the door.
        \_ if it's truly emergency-only, any cell phone with signal, regardless
           of plan, can access 911.  So you dont' really need a plan at all
           and its FREE!
           \_ not sure about that... if I take the SIM card out of my GSM
              phone, I don't think it can register on the network to make
              a call (though I've never tried dialing 911)
              \_ federal law requires all carriers to allow free 911
                 call access, so maybe a non-GSM phone would be enough?
                 \_ Taking the sim card out of mine still allows emergency
                    calls.  Just for yuks, try '112' (European emergency
                    number) if 911 doesn't work.  -John
           \_ my motorola v66 manual says you can dial emergency numbers
              even if the phone is locked or no SIM is inserted.  I think
              it will try to register after you press send.  but if your
              emergencies are not police emergencies, pre-paid is good.
           \_ So if I have a non-GSM phone, and I cancel my plan which releases
              the phone number, I can still call 911?
        \_ prepaid. $50 would last you 3 months.
           \_ good suggestion.  Any favorite carrier?
           \_ Cingular.  $20/3 months = $7/month.  $50 for 1 time activation.
           \_ Another suggestion, AT&T Free2Go.  I think it has $10/90 days
              = ~$3.33 / month.
2004/7/25 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:32471 Activity:nil
7/25    Is it any surprise that Sandy Berger attempted to dowplay the Cox
        report on Chinese espionage?
        'Sandy Berger must go' from 1999
2004/7/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:32468 Activity:high
7/24    I'll see you a Berger and raise you a Shelby:
        Republican Senator Richard Selby target of a Justice Department
        investigation into leakage of classified 9/11 phone intercepts.
        \_ IIRC, this started after Shelby criticized FBI for faiilure in 9/11.
        \_ Not quite the same thing.  Berger didn't deny the action. Shelby
           does.  Berger appears to have destroyed documents, etc.  Hang Berger
           and if Shelby did it, hang him too.
2004/7/23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32448 Activity:nil
7/23    Woman With Possible Terror Ties Arrested
        (smuggled thru our southern boarder)
        Doing the jobs Americans won't do....
2004/7/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32446 Activity:insanely high
7/23    I wonder which "domestic terror" group they could be talking about?
        Have the Freepers formed their own militia?
        http://csua.org/u/8am (yahoo news)
        \_ yes.
        \_ There have been domestic terrorists practically forever.  Just off
           the top of my head I can name, the KKK, 1900's anarchists, the SLA
           and abortion clinic bombers.  Domestic terrorists are
           left or right wing fringe elements who believe violent means are
           justified in persuit of their goal.
           \_ Don't forget ELF and the various militias in the central north.
              \_ I'm sure I've forgotten a dozen groups, but I'm just saying
                 there's all kinds of terrorists.
              \_ Has the ELF actually injured/killed anyone?
                         \_ a.out
                 \_ You think Hummers don't feel pain?
                    \_ Idiot.  Look up "tree spiking" and why it can kill.
                      \_ Fatass. Look up why yermom is so fat that she
                         could kill somone if she sat down on them. But
                         she hasn't yet, so we don't call her a murderer,
                         just a fat ugly skanky Hummer driving hobag.
                         \_ When my mom spikes a tree, I'll let you know.  When
                            your idiotic 'heroes of the environment' stop
                            trying to kill people and destroy property, let
                            us know.
                            \_ "There is something slightly absurd about a
                                scenario in which those who want to destroy
                                a forest can accuse those of trying to perserve
                                it of property damage..." -Maines
                                \_ I was referring to the number of autos that
                                   were burned or spray painted, not trees
                                   spiked.  Re: "ugly skanky Hummer driving
                                   \_ and what about all the pedestrians
                                      killed by  drivers of monster suv's
                                      who can't see over the dash?  what
                                      about all the asthma deaths associated
                                      with excessive driving in urban and
                                      suburban areas?  When one persons
                                      actions lead to the death of another
                                      and that death is preventable, i call
                                      that violence.
                                      \_ Sue GM, Ford, etc.  RIDE BIKE!  Yeah,
                                         whatever.  Troll, troll, troll.  Not
                                         even a good troll.  Only ilyas
                                         bothered to respond.
                                      \_ You need to become familiar with a
                                         legal concept of 'main cause.'
                                           -- ilyas
                \_ most tree spikers (YES I KNOW NOT 100 PERCENT BUT FUCKING
                   CLOSE) make the tree with paint to let everyone know
                   they spiked it.
                   \_ so only some loggers are likely to get injured or die and
                      those who don't check for paint?
                      \_ I would say a small number of loggers have a slight
                         chance of being injured if they are dumb enough not
                         to LOOK AT THE DAMN TREE THEY'RE CUTTING.
                         \_ Does that include the ones where they glued bark
                            over the hole, or painted the nail so it wouldn't
                            shine and is harder to see?  How about they file
                            some lawsuits or vote or do something within the
                            legal bounds of society instead of forcing their
                            views on others through violence?
                 \_ Injured, yes.  Dead?  Not that I know of but only due to
                    luck.  Their stunts could easily have killed someone.
                    \_ FWIW, Earth First! disavowed tree spiking and never took
                       responsibility for any of it officially.  Their MO was
                       more blocking logging operations and camping out in
                       trees.  That's not to say their extremist rhetoric
                       couldn't have inspired others to do such things.
                       \_ EF != ELF.  Anyway, they're all shadowy .orgs with
                          no real official structure anyway.   Killing people
                          is killing people and *someone* was spiking trees,
                          whichever terrorist .org they belonged to.
                          \_ Tree spiking has not hurt or killed anyone,
                             in spite of logging company propaganda. And I
                             agree with you, killing people is killing people,
                             but tree spiking never killed anyone. Blaming
                             EF for tree spiking is almost as dumb as blaming
                             Rush Limbaugh for the Oklahoma City bombing.
                             \_ Well, it hurt this guy:
                                \_ That doesn't count!  He's white!
                                \_ Okay, I take it back. One minor injury.
                                   \_ You're an asshole: "This happened in
                                      California in 1987, where the operator's
                                      jaw was broken and several teeth were
                                      knocked out".
                                      \_ Yawn. Minor injury.
                                         \_ *laugh*  Now, I _know_ you're a
                                            troll.  Sub thread is now dead.
        \_ So are all these guys seriously trying to claim that ELF is
           the terrorist org that the FBI says is planning to kill journalists
           at the Democratic convention? Somehow, I kind of doubt it...
           \_ Earth Liberation Front.  I have no idea which ELF you're talking
              about and if the FBI says they're planning to kill anyone.
              \_ You really think it is the Earth Liberation Front that is
                 going to go after the Democratic convention eh? You are
                 battier that I had even thought, I and I thought you were
                 pretty batty. Did you come up with that one on your own,
                 or do you have some kind of source for it?
                 \_ 1) the person you're replying to (me) didn't state anything
                    about ELF attacking the DNC convention except to say I
                    hadn't heard anything about what the other poster claimed
                    about the FBI.  2) learn to read.  3)  given #1, there is
                    no need for #3.  See #2.
2004/7/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32429 Activity:nil
7/22    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
        \_ The butler did it.
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:32393 Activity:very high
7/20    Berger investigated for taking classified reports
        "...he had taken from classified anti-terror documents he
        reviewed at the National Archives by sticking them
        in his jacket and pants."
        This guy was Clinton's and Kerry's NSA (equivalent to Rice)
        \_ Again, even though you erased it, what's really interesting about
           all of this is why this is suddenly "news" when the investigation
           has been going on since last December.
           \_ how is the timing relevant in any way?  This guy stole and
              lost documents from the National Archives and you are
              worried about the timing.  Congress had known about Abu
              Ghraib for half a year before it came out, and???
              \_ And you screamed bloody murder about it all being leaked
                 out in time to be an election-year issue.  If that was
                 politicking, then so the hell is this.
                 \_ I don't know who 'you' refers to.  I though the whole
                    thing was overblown, nothing more than hazing of
                    terrorists.  Again, when is a good time to release
                    a former NSA stole and lost documents while the
                    9/11 commission was ongoing?  I don't think you have
                    an answer.  I can't believe you have the
                    audacity to worry about the 'timing'.
                    \_ Pshaw all around.  The NSA scandal and the Abu Graib
                       scandal should have been revealed at the same time:
                       as soon as they were discovered.  How do you like my
                       answer now?
                       \_ Abu Graib was revealed when it was discovered.  I
                          remember seeing it mentioned months before the
                          pictures came out.  It was only the pictures that
                          suddenly put it on the front page.
                       \_ You simply reinforce my opinion that to you
                          what matters is style over substance.  You could
                          care less that someone violated the law and
                          effectively interfered with a Congressional
                          investigation.  In summary, you are unethical and
                          choose to do defend like individuals.
                          \_ Is that the impression you got? Let me disabuse
                             you of it: If he violated the law and interefered
                             with said investigation beyond a reasonable doubt,
                             I not only care, I will be happy to see him
                             punished. Now pay attention here, because this is
                             where it gets tricky: at the same time that I
                             agree he should be punished, I _also_ understand
                             that the timing of this release of information is
                             of particular use to the Repubs in their efforts
                             to discredit the Kerry campaign.  See that? Two
                             beliefs, one pro-punishment and the other
                             rather cynical, held at exactly the same time in
                             my brain.  You should try it some time. It's a
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32387 Activity:very high
7/20    Are Filipinos embarassed over your country being cowards?
        \_ they should be. They should of stand tall and so *NO* to
           American at first place.
           \_ Chicom troll!  U Rock!      -Chicom Troll #1 fan
              \_ Just want to inform you guys that USA is bullying
                 just about everyone to contribute troops in Iraq hence
                 caused a lot of resentment toward USA.  An interesting
                 case is the Korean one.  I was talking to a Korea national
                 (not Korean-American),  he told me that Koreans are generally
                 bitter toward USA for the beheading of one of the translator,
                 eventhough it is Iraqi who was doing the killing, resentment
                 toward USA is far exceed resentment toward Iraq
        \_ the filipino president just barely won her election and
           there were lots of charges of voter fraud, she decided
           having the US mad at her was less important than no political
           support at home, AT ALL, at this time.
        \_ They were scheduled to withdraw in August.  Troops home 10 days
           early, 1 truck driver alive.  Definite cowardice.
        \_ Have you stopped beating your wife?  And why do you hate America?
           \_ http://csua.org/u/89q (Filipino gets hammered, then hammers wife)
        \_ I am troubled by the fact that they gave into terrorists but I
           fail to see how not withdrawing is an act of bravery.  It's
           not like an soldiers or government officials would have had their
           heads cut off.   They could have just decided to let the guy
           get fucked to save face.  Would that be considered brave?
        \_ The thing about Filipines is that it has like a million  OFW
           (overseas filipino workers) working in muslim countries.  It has
           take their interest and safety into consideration.
           \_ Well in the long run they have just painted a huge target on
               those poor OFW's.   Now any small-time kidnapper with a beef
               against the Phillipines just has to grab a filipino and
               threaten to behead them and they'll have the phillipine Gov't
               at their knees.   Way to reward the terrorists, guys.
               \_ Umm... don't you think you might be exagerating a little?
                  All they got was the withdrawal of a mere 50 troops just 10
                  days ahead of schedule.  I'd hardly call that
                  'at their knees'.
               \_ but maybe this Iraq business isn't where they should make
                  a stand, and unnecessarily threaten the lives of the OFWs.
                  Do the Islamic terrorists just kidnap people from random
                  countries and make random demands on those countries?
                  \_ They're planning on kidnapping some Finns so they can
                     demand more cell phones.
                     \_ Do Filipinos have an inferiority complex?
                        \_ As Paolo points out, their country is named after
                           a Spanish king.  What do you think?  -- ilyas
                           \_ oh yea, whatever. at least they don't change
                                their name to barnstone just to cover up
                                their heritage.
                  \_ at first, it seems like randomn.  But now the pattern is
                     quite clear: kidnapping the not-so-willing allies, and
                     put the final straw which break the camel.
           \_ Forget OFWs, I bet the Philippines are more worried about the
              Muslims in their own country (the embattled southern islands have
              lots of Muslim extremists, and reportedly a few of Osama's
              illegitimate children).
           \_ Last time I check, we dumped over 10 billions in 10 years helping
              these "freedom fighters" to do the fighting in Afghanstan.  Now,
              please tell me who is rewarding the terrorist again?
              \_ You have been Trolled. -OP
2004/7/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32330 Activity:nil
7/16    blowkay [bloh'-kay] adj. of an attitude, typically exhibited by the
        electorate, that elected officials who have sexual relations outside
        of marriage while in office are less deserving of impeachment than
        officials whose decisions lead to the loss of human life. Folks say
        the new senator from Rhode Island is a skirt chaser, but as long as
        he doesn't send thousands of Americans off to die in a war on false
        pretenses, he's blowkay with me.
        \_ fuck that.  I don't think it's too much to ask to have leaders
           who don't screw around with interns or lie to american people,
           or give government contracts to their buddies without bids
           or make deals with terrorists to fund secret wars to support
           dictators in latin america or run a secret gang of thugs from
           the whitehouse to perpetrate illegal "dirty tricks" on opponents
           or let a unwinnable war drag on forever while lying about it
           to the american people...goddamn all of them all to hell.
           \_ Moron, without corruption there would be no government.
              "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
              The founding fathers of this country weren't stupid, and they
              knew this, which is why our government is designed to be
              a balancing act. You can never eliminate graft or nepotism,
              it's the grease that keeps government working. You can't
              codify human behavior into simple law. The law is simply
              a framework which we work from.
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32243 Activity:high
7/12    My nightmare seems closer to reality now.
        ("Federal officials are looking into what legal authority if any they
        would have to postpone the November presidential election in the
        event of a terrorist strike, a Department of Homeland Security
        official said Sunday.")
        \_ What is your nightmare?  An orderly response to a terrorist attack?
           Note that the NYC mayoral primary was delayed when the attacks hit
           on 9/11 (day of the election).  Considering that a hit would most
           likely be on an urban center (which tend to vote liberal) do you
           think this is a bad thing?
           \_ mayoral primary.  big deal.
           \_ A primary is a quite different.  For one the dates of the
              election are not mandated in the constitution.  For another they
              don't have quite the same importance.  Remember Guilliani also
              tried to get a few more months of his term to "deal with the
              situation" in New York and that made a lot of New Yorkers who
              were previously happy with Gulliani quite grumpy.  He didn't
              get those extra months BTW.
           \_ Have the freepers come to motd?  Usually we have more intelligent
              conservatives posting.
              \_ Do you have a response to the content or are you just another
                 mindless ad hominem drone?
                 \_ Your last sentence ("Considering that ...") speaks for
                    itself.  What are you trying to say in this sentence?
           \_ I think what the poster was referring to is the president might
              create a terrorist event to reschedule the election more to his
              \_ Yeah, but I tend to ignore tinfoil hat nutjobs.  He probably
                 thinks Bush orchestrated 9/11.
                 \_ Bush didn't orchestrate 9/11, but he sure took advantage
                    of it in order to topple Hussein, and take away our civil
                    liberties with the un-patriotic act. If there is a
                    terrorist attack *and* Bush has the numbers to lose, don't
                    bother even questioning for a split-second that Bush won't
                    delay the election until he can spin-ster his way to
                    \_ That bastard!  How dare he topple Hussein! -- ilyas
              \_ Teresa Nielsen Hayden: "I deeply resent the way this admin-
                 istration makes me feel like a nutbar conspiracy theorist."
                 I don't think W [w|c]ould orchestrate a terrorist attack.
                 That said, I am deathly afraid of any postponement of the
                 election.  Come up with a better plan, you morons. -op
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32235 Activity:nil
7/12    Eyeballing the White House
        http://cryptome.org/whrez/whrez-eyeball.htm  -John
        \_ What are you planning, terrorist?!
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Security] UID:32227 Activity:moderate
        \_ Do you mean 'peasants'?
        \_ Ok so you won't mind if we profile Muslims and kick out all of
           the illegals?  Which is it?
           \_ Your reply makes no sense to me, but I'm sure it's exactly what
              the TSA folks think too.
           \_ The fact that they talked to him seemed reasonable, but I think
              any sane police agency would have quickly said, "ok, no big
              deal" pretty damn fast.  Although I think the person who
              reported him is a moron, I do understand the "we have to
              follow up" reponse.  I don't understand the "we have to look
              tough and try to scare him" response.
              \_ I don't think your version would make a very good newspaper
              \_ It's just the way cops are.  You never met a cop before?  This
                 idiot writes like he's never met one either.  But really, the
                 above is correct.  The guy had a deadline for X column inches
                 so he wrote some crap.  Since nothing happened and you can't
                 check his story, who says it even happened at all?  The URL
                 and the original 'story' and I do mean 'story' are trolls.
                 \_ He's not an idiot; this is unacceptable behavior by stupid
                    and officious thugs in uniform.  I was approached by a
                    little toad bitch in St. Louis (after they'd lost my
                    luggage) who asked me if I were visiting on business or
                    pleasure--I replied "pleasure", at which point she started
                    snapping at me "then why are you wearing business
                    clothes?!?" (Khakis and a shirt.)  These are the menial
                    and uneducated, placed in uniform with a mandate to
                    intimidate.  See comment about paying what you get for
                    in the camera discussion below.  -John
        \_ America: land of the free, home of the brave.
2004/7/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32190 Activity:high
7/8     Joseph Stalin and Osama Bin Laden more popular than Bush!
        \_ Sounds like a stupidity test.
        \_ Probably because everyone that Stalin and Bin Laden didn't like got
           killed, whereas Bush isn't rounding up and executing leftists by
           the millions.  Maybe he should be.
           \_ You are saying that you love both Stalin and Bin Laden?
                        \_ In Soviet Russia, Party hates YOU!
              \_ I'm saying you should take a reading comprehension class.
                 \_ How will this make you a clear and informative poster?
2004/7/7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:31209 Activity:insanely high
7/7     Concerned senior citizen speaks out in support of Kerry:
        \_ Dear Mr. Bush, Since the start of your presidency, membership in
           our club has grown by leaps and bounds; donations have quadrupled,
           and media coverage has been daily and constant.  Keep up the good
           work.  Yours, Osama bin Laden
           \_ Yeah, and when they stated as early as '93 they were out to
              get Americans, what did Clinton do?
              \_ he tried to kill him.  Mind you that at the same time, you
                 were busy trying to impeach Clinton, completely ignoring
                 all threats imposed by Al Qaeda.
           \_ Laaaaaame.... try harder.
              \_ no lamer than the original.  -tom
                 \_ The original was actually quite amusing. The followup
                    just tried too hard and doesn't ring as true.
                    \_ I'd like to think you're joking, but I'm afraid I'd be
                       terribly mistaken.
                       \_ Apparently you have no sense of timing. I bet you find
                          knock-knock jokes still funny...
              \_ but true.
                 \_ Uhm, no...
              \_ It was cute the first time but now it's old as dirt and
                 best forgotten.  Don't beat a dead horse.
           \_ Kerry has the support of foriegn leaders!
              \_ And Al Gore invented the Internet, and Ketchup is a vegetable,
                 and you REALLY need some new material.
                 \_ Bush has the support of Al Queda!
                    \_ Anyone that does not agree with me is a terrorist and
                       hates America!
                       \_ I know you're being sarcastic but I hope you don't
                          believe anyone actually ever said that for real.
                          \_ Anyone on the motd, the Bush administration, or
                             the right-wing press? Take your pick. I bet I
                             can find examples from all three. Poster below
                             just found one from Bush himself.
                          \_ "Either you are with us, or you are with the
                             terrorists." -GWB
2004/7/6 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:31182 Activity:very high
7/6     Old news, but interesting
        Sources: Cheney curses senator over Halliburton criticism
        \_ This was already discussed on the motd and there's nothing new.
           Perhaps you should read the motd archives.
           \_ What was the conclusion from sodans?
              \_ http://csua.com/?entry=31000
                 \_ Why the hell do we need some UCLA guy archiving the
                    Berkeley csua motd??? :)
                    \_ It's better than some Stanford guy, hehe...
                 \_ Looks like the curse word was debated for exactly
                    one entry before the whole thing turned into an off
                    topic pissing match about Al Qaida and Iraq.  So it
                    would still seem worthy of discussion.
        \_ Cursing is only bad when Democrats do it.
           \_ Ah, go fuck yourself. -a Demo
        \_ Best take on the whole thing was Jon Stewart's: "This shows that
           Cheney is coming out in support of gay marriage."
2004/7/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:31169 Activity:insanely high
5/7     Why does anyone take Moore seriously? His movies are fiction,
        not documentaties.  First columbine now 911.
        Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 911
        \_ written by a democrat who voted for nader.
           \_ holy shit!  he voted his concious instead of his party! traitor!
              kill him!  burn the witch!  he violated group think!  he has
              independent thought!  destroy the infection!
              \_ "independent thought" != intelligence.
              \_ its relevant bc its written by a dem, not hannity or foxnews.
                 \_ A Dem who writes for the National Review. NRO has spent
                    the last six months openly campaigning for Bush and
                    slamming Kerry, so they are hardly an objective source.
        \_ even before seeing 911, I do not see how any reasonable,
           compassionate person could vote for gwbush again.
           \_ compassionate?  meaning what?  you take my money and give it
              to yourself and others who haven't earned it through the
              power of the federal and state government?  get a job and
              you won't need compassion.
                \_ no, i don't sit around thinking of ways to steal your
                   money and give it to welfare queens.  I am an equal
                   opportunity bush despiser.  there's lots of reasons
                   to not vote for george bush, i could easily make
                   a list of several hundred good ones not involving
                   \_ It is a common fallacy of the politically maladroit
                      to assume that compassion has anything to with
                      politics. It does not. Politics is about ambition,
                      and ambition plays to what is expedient and necessary.
                      How is your Boston Brahmin any more or less despicable
                      than the Texan? You need wake up and smell the coffee.
                      Believing that compassion rules human behavior is
                      something that wisdom and common sense should have easily
                      \_ And yet he sold his platform in 2000 on "compassionate
                         conservatism".  We all knew the term was bullshit, and
                         yet it sold.
                         \_ No, it didn't.  People voted against Gore because
                            he did poorly in the debates and is a crackpot.
                            Very few voted 'for' Bush in 2000.  Gore's own
                            home state wouldn't even vote for him.
                            \_ Funny, I seem to remember Gore got over 50
                               percent of the vote...
                            \_ Funny, you seem to remember wrong. 48.38%.
                      \_ Perhaps.  But like any good game, politics requires
                         either compromise or utter domination.  For a short
                         while there, the Repubs had the latter: the House,
                         the Senate, the Presidency, the Bench, and the
                         support of the People.  Recently, they seem to have
                         lost the latter two and confused the former two.
                         This requires compromise, and the Texan (and his
                         Cabinet) are notorious for being poor compromisers.
                         The Boston Brahmin is famed for being able to come
                         to reasonable compromises that diminish neither side.
                         \_ Famed?  I call bullshit.  I've *never* heard
                            anyone claim the most liberal voting Senator is
                            famed for any such thing.
                            \_ HE'S A FLIP FLOPPING LIBERAL, I TELL YOU!
                               (For the clue impaired, "flip flop" is right
                                wing speak for compromise.)
                               \_ Incidentally, whatever else may be true,
                                  'flip-flopping' is perhaps the most damaging
                                  smear against Democrats in the Republican
                                  arsenal, in terms of real effects. -- ilyas
                               \_ What happened to 'waffling'?
                               \_ you mean it's not a piece of electronics!?
        \_ Because the dems are out of power and they need someone like
           Moore. The Reps used to use Limbaugh when they were out of power.
           The opposition party always needs a wacky muckracking spokesman
           to rally the troops. Moor's just the latest in a long line.
           \_ Yes Rush is a firebrand but he's never this deceitful.
              \_ Bull.  Rush spews false stats, misquotes, and is almost
                 psychotically hypocritical.
                 \_ Uh?  Rush doesn't tend to give any stats at all, when he
                    does he's quoting someone else, and his quotes are all
                    checkable online.  Where is he a hypocrite?  He was never
                    an anti-drug crusader so turning out to be a drug addict
                    doesn't make him a hypocrite.  Do you know *anything* about
                    the man or are you just spewing the DNC talking points?  I
                    wonder if you've even listened to his show for more than
                    5 minutes, if ever.
                    \_ http://www.fair.org/extra/0311/limbaugh-drugs.html
                       You are wrong, again. As usual.
                    \_ More Limbaugh Lies:
        \_ As opposed to CNN, NYTimes, ABC, etc. which is just 100% fact.  Yup.
           \_ By the kind of argument  employed in that url, everyday there
              are 10 imes more "deceits" in any of the above than F911.
              \_ I've been saying that about the media for years on the motd
                 but people always call me a crackpot for saying the main-
                 stream media is inaccurate, biased, or in any way
                 unreliable.  Are you a crackpot, too?
                 \_ If that means considering mainstream media inaccurate
                    rather than accusing them of bias along particular
                    directions, yes.
                    \_ well, i think you're both off base.  if "news" means
                       15 minutes of ads, 10 minutes of sports, 10 minutes of
                       weather, 10 minutes of "puppy saved in local lake"
                       and five minutes of sound bites with pretty pictures
                       about what's actually going on in the world, who gives
                       a shit if it's biased or wrong?  that's just not the
                       point.  the point is that no responsible journalist
                       is *ever* going to be able to reduce the news to a
                       five minute cartoon, and as long as that's all people
                       will take for their news, we have a serious problem.
                       I blame the morons who don't bother to *read*, not
                       the tv news networks  that respond accurately to
                       the demand of the news consumer.
                       \_ You'd feel differently if it was *your* puppy.
                          \_ not likely. in my experience, they'd get the
                             name of the puppy wrong, then say the police
                             rescued it when it was really the fire department,
                             and incorrectly name the lake from which it
                             was rescued.
        \_ When your sources include Slate articles by Chris Hitchens, you
           really must be scraping the barrel.
                          \- are you in fact the only person in the world
                             who refers to Christopher Hitchens as "Chris"?
                             \_ No, I'm in good company:
                                However, I promise not to call you "Par."
           \_ Either the material is true or it is not.  If you have to
              attack the source instead of the truthfulness of the material
              presented, you're not even in the barrel anymore.
              \_ Hitchen's article is a fact-free zone - its just a bloviating
                 \_ Maybe.  You expected anyone to actually read the URL before
                 \_ So you're saying that the clip in the movie at Camp David
                    does *not* show Bush sitting next to Tony Blair?
        \_ 50 of these "deceits" are not even lies, by any stretch of the
           imagination. It is a "deceit" to show that Bush sat and read in
           a classroom for nine minutes after being informed of the 9/11
           attacks? The author calls it a deceit because Moore offers no
           attacks? The author calls it a "lie" because Moore offers no
           other suggestion as to what Bush should have been doing....
           Whaaaat? Most of the rest are the same. He calls Moore a
           "liar" for not presenting both sides of controversial
           topics. This is a good example of "bias" but a terrible
           example of a "lie." This guy is a big hypocrite anyway,
           if you read any of his columns, he does not bother to
           present both sides of any views.
2004/7/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:31129 Activity:very high
7/2     How will The Republicans respond to this?
        http://csua.org/u/80w  (Yahoo News)
        \_ their standard response: "Get over it!"  - pst
           \_ this coming from someone who falls at the feet of a group
              named "moveon.org".
        \_ An amusing stunt to be sure.  You might want a more descriptive
           line like: "Some Democratic Congresspeople request UN observe US
           election."  There's some loon who censors any link without what
           he considers to be an adequate description (presumably so he doesn't
           have to deal with the shock and awe of reading anything he might
           disagree with).
           \_ Idiot.  So it a) doesn't waste his time and b) avoids work
              unsafe links.  Moron, we aren't all surfing in our underwear
              at home with the motd in one window, pr0n in another and our
              dick in our hand.
       \_ The Republicans will not respond to it because the UN has no real
          jurisdiction here. I mean, what are you going to do if the UN
          Monitoring Committee finds that the elections are a fraud? Invade
          the US? The UN is merely a sock puppet for the U.S. anyway, and
          has no real power.
          \_ The UN exists so the 3rd world dictators can have a place to
             safely, and powerlessly, mouth off and feel important so they
             don't something stupid and actively harmful.  The UN doesn't
             have jurisdiction *anywhere* on the planet.
             \_ This is as stupid as standing on the porch of your
                trailerhouse with your shotgun in hand, declaring
                "them gubmint regulators ain't got no authority here"
                but you probably do that, too.
2004/7/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31124 Activity:very high
7/2     Why isn't Jackass:The Movie considered a documentary? All this talk
        of F/911 being the first documentary to debut at #1 and being the
        highest grossing feature length documentary.
        \_ 1 : being or consisting of documents : contained or certified in
               writing <documentary evidence>
           2 : of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or art
            broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE <a documentary film of the war>
            broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE
           2 : of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or
               art; broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE
           \_ Jackass sounds like a documentary to me then!
              \_ F911 doesn't/
        \_ By that logic, every movie is a documentary, since it documents
           what the actors are doing.
           \_ I'm assuming you haven't seen Jackass.
              \_ If you can equate Jackass with F9/11, can I equate Hannity
                 and Rush with Bozo the Clown?
                 \_ Bad dodge! Btw, IMDB has Jackass down as a documentary
                    \_ A bunch of retards on the Intarweb say it, it must be so!
                    \_ A bunch of retards on the Intarweb say it, it must be
                       \_ and Yahoo
                          \_ You're still being deliberately obtuse by
                             equating F9/11 with Jackass.  No one mistakes
                             "Jackass" for a documentary, although apparently
                             that was the category a couple of websites decided
                             to stuff it into for lack of a better term.
                             F9/11 is a documentary about current events, like
                             it or not.  It is based primarily on news footage
                             of real events.  Jackass is completely staged.
                             Get real.
                             \_ I'm assuming you haven't seen F/911 either...
                             \_ Based is an interesting word in this case.
                                If only it was based on and presented facts,
                                then it would be a documentary.
        \_ I haven't seen F911 yet, but I want to see it in a reasonably
           conservative area.  What's the most conservative place in the SFBA?
           \_ I recommend Castro Valley. I dated a girl from there... they have
              a rodeo and lots of Bush Lovers there.
           \_ Why?  Any particular reason?  Are you scared some volvo-driving
              latte-sipping New York Times-reading scary liburul is going to
              solicit you for gay butt love?
              \_ I don't drink latte -straight BMW-driving liberal.
                 \_ But you're cool with the gay butt love?
                    \_ No, but if you're looking I recommend Castro St.
              \_ No.  I'm a left-liberal and want to see what the other half
                 thinks of it, rather than going to see it with a bunch of
                 people going whoop-whoop.
                 \_ Most conservatives won't go and see this "movie". We
                    have better things to do with our $9 than waste time
                    watching some twit's lame over-hyped ramblings.
                    \_ And you know that this movie is some "twit's
                       lame over-hyped ramblings" because you saw the
                       movie or because you listened to some twit's
                       lame over-hyped ramblings about how you shouldn't
                       see this movie?
                        \_ I know things like Richard Perle saying that he
                           told MM that what MM put in his movie about RP's
                           stuff simply wasn't true and MM had months to fix
                           it before release and wouldn't even respond.  For
                           example, RP says he is the one who gave the OK for
                           the bin Laden family to leave the US; it never went
                           higher than him personally yet MM blames Bush for
                           it as if it was a Bush/bin Laden oil conspiracy. MM
                           is a proven liar and a scumbag and won't see my
                           money.  Thanks for asking.
                        \_ I don't listen to the radio. I saw a summary
                           of the movie in a newspaper (think it was the
                           WSJ). The newshour had some stuff about it
                           as well. Seemed to me like yaOverHypedFlick.
                           Anyway, movies aren't really my thing. The
                           last movie I saw was ST:Nemsis. The next
                           movie I'll see might be Bourne Supremacy.
                           \_ Most of this "hype" is being generated by
                              people calling it some "twit's lame over-hyped
                              ramblings". I'm sure Michael Moore couldn't
                              be happier with all the free publicity
                              conservatives are giving him.
                              \_ When someone tells the Big Lie in public and
                                 worse, gets money and accolades for it, it is
                                 important to say something.  Otherwise people
                                 will blindly accept it as fact instead of as
                                 "that controversial movie by that guy".
                           \_ Ahh, so you just have extremely poor taste.
                              Likely you don't bother to vote anyway, so its
                                \_ Can't argue about the poor taste
                                   in movies part. I'll watch almost
                                   anything with the words Star Trek
                                   in the title.
                                   I have voted Republican in every
                                   election since 1995. Someone has to
                                   keep the commies from taking over
                                   the country. :-)
                                   \_ The Trekkies vs. the Commies??!!?!
                                      Now THAT I would pay $10 to see.
                                        \_ Winner takes on the Moonies
                                           in a steel cage death match.
                                           \_ Bust a deal, spin the wheel!
                    \_ Apparently you're wrong about that, but please
                       continue with your fantasy world, its amusing to
                       the rest of us.
                       \_ Don't you see his logic?  If they see the movie, then
                          they aren't Real Conservatives (TM).  It's like how
                          lots of Christian denominations disclaim other
                          wacky Christians by saying "Those aren't Real
                          \_ no.  if we see the movie, we're wasting our time
                             and money better spent with families, at work, or
                             doing something useful elsewhere.
                       \_ Most of my conservative friends have skipped
                          this movie prefering to spend their money on
                          real entertainment instead (spidey 2).
                          \_ Spiderman's a Democrat.
                                \_ So what? Conservatives can't like
                                   Democrats? When was that law passed?
                                   \_ Dude, it was a joke. I don't even
                                      think Spiderman has a political
                                      affiliation. Take that rod out of
                                      your ass.
                                        \_ So was my response.
                                   \_ obAnnCoulterToThread
                          \_ "I'm having trouble paying my mortgage, but
                             everyone is these days in the Bush economy."
                             \_ Yeah with interest rates at 46 year lows, if
                                you can't pay your mortgage you're an idiot.
           \_ I vote for Danville or Atherton.
              \_ I dunno if Atherton is that conservative - just extremely
                 \_ Piedmont - extremely rich and pretty liberal
                    Atherton - extremely rich and pretty conservative
                    \_ All the Atherton residents I know (8 households,
                       both my age-group and my parents') are fairly
                       \_ Are you liberal?  If so, what are the odds you
                          would spend social time with anyone who wasn't?
                       \_ Maybe Stockton?  Most of the Bay Area is pretty
                          liberal.  All major Bay Area counties voted Dem
                          in the 2000 election.
        \_ To call F911 a "documentary" is an injustice to real documentary
           film producers such as Ken Burns. Its like comparing the crap on
           Discovery channel to real programs such as Nova or American Exp.
           \_ Ken Burns?  You've gotta be kidding me.  I would argue about
              this with you but just the thought of Ken Burns is putting me
              to sleee.....zzzzzzz
                \_ Almost everything Ken Burns has produced for American
                   Experience has been exceptional. Entertaining, factual,
                   well researched.
                   \_ ZZZZZZzzzZZ....mph...ZZzzz
           \_ Nova is a real documentary???  It can be many times more biased
              than F9/11 except nobody is bothered about it.
                \_ I've been watching Nova for more than 20 yrs. I haven't
                   ever seen a biased eps.
                   \_ That says more about you than Nova or F9/11.
                        \_ Name some biased eps in Nova.
2004/6/30-7/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:31089 Activity:high
6/30    Nepal buddhist put in solitary confinement for 24/hr * 3 month for
        unknowingly videotaping outside a FBI building.
        And recently a NYT photographer was prevented form taking picture
        of Times-Warner building.  Will it now get someone in trouble if he
        takes pictures on the street with major landmark or government
        building in the line of sight?  It doesn't matter if he will
        eventually get out.
        \_ Four more years!  Leader Bush is teh greatest!
           \_ And this will change under kerry because..?
        \_ I don't want Iranian nationals taking pictures of landmarks in my
           country. -allenp
           \_ Why not? --iranian national.
           \_ While we're rattling sabers with each other. -allenp
              \_ Better just ban all tourists from taking any pictures. You
                 never know who might be our enemy tomorrow.  Thank goodness
                 Eastasia is our ally.
                 \_ w00t!
                 \_ Now, _that_ was a funny edit. Nice.
        \_ "Ignorance of the law is no excuse, for it can always be
           faked."  That said, the real problem here is the unbelieveable
           bueracuracy that infests our government.  Look at the INS.
           Just ridiculous.
        \_ He was on an expired visa.  That's life.  Maybe he can tell
           his friends to obey our immigration laws and then there's no
           problem.  We should have forced him to refund US taxpayers
           the cost of jail and trial before release.  I'm sure FBI
           agents have more important concerns than this twit.
           \_ Not only that.  He was *working* with an expired *tourist* visa.
              \_ So deport him.  If you want him punished, work out a treaty
                 the law, and staying of a tourist visa is too.
                 with Nepal where they punish their citizens for violating
                 your immigration laws.
                 \_ That's what the FBI agent in charge was trying to do,
                    and he eventually got him out.
           \_ Are you a tax lawyer? Then you've almost certainly committed
              tax fraud and mail fraud.  When they come to lock you up, please
              remember what you've written today.
              \_ Bad analogy.  This guy knew he was breaking immigration
                 law wide open.  You don't have to be an immigration
                 lawyer to know that working on a tourist visa is against
                 the law, and staying of a tourist visa is too.
                 \_ straw man.  The penalty for working on an expired visa
                    is deportation, not 3 months of jail.  -tom
                    \_ Wrong-o, Tom-o. Or at least you're responding to
                       the wrong question.  I didn't say anything about
                       the punishment being just.  I just pointed out
                       that this fellows analogy was wrong.  That's not a
                       straw man.
                       \_ 'Wrong-o, Tom-o'?  What the fuck is wrong with you?
                          \_ I get too much fun out of life.
                 \_ No analogy being made here. If you're not a tax lawyer,
                    you have almost certainly violated some minor part of the
                    byzantine US tax codes. If you show no sympathy for a man
                    who was put in solitary confinement for 3 months for
                    working on an expired visa, expect no sympathy when the
                    powers that be arrest and detain you on the pretext of
                    tax and mail fraud.
                    \_ "No analogy?" Your whole argument us based on a bad
                       analogy, That purposely breaking a well known low
                       in 2 different ways is somehow analgus to breaking
                       an extrememly obscure law unintentionally.
        \_ Here is the correct article non PC title:  Greedy Nepalese
           Flaunts US Laws and Distracts FBI from Pursuing Terrorists.
           He is responsible for his decision to
           break our laws when we are under terrorist attack.
           He is lucky to have gotten off as easy as he did.
           BTW this is classic NYTimes bias.
           \_ Wait, so its only an objective headline if its worded like a
              news report in Starship Troopers?
              \_ Motd Poster is flaming asshole and rabid propagandist!
                 Click here to learn more!
              \_ Do you want to see more?
           \_ I think, what you are saying is, he was lucky because:
              (1) He was kept in solitary, he wasn't raped, he was only
              (2) It was only three months, could have been a year+
              (3) He could be in Guantanamo, he was in Brooklyn
              (4) He eventually got to talk to a lawyer
              (5) He had a senior FBI agent helping him
              (6) He got a free ticket back to Nepal, didn't have to pay
                  any fines, and did manage to send $37K back to his family
              (7) He broke important laws during a very sensitive time,
                  he should accept the consequences
                  \_ If rape is inevitable, sit back and enjoy it!
2004/6/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:31000 Activity:very high
6/24    omg, cheney cusses in senate. http://drudgereport.com
        "Cheney curses senator over Halliburton criticism...
         VP to Sen. Leahy: 'F**k You'... Nearly a dozen senators witnessed..."
        \_ Poor guy's under a lot of pressure right now, what with being
           caught lying and all about Iraq / Al Qaeda connections.
           \_ Wow, this is so done.  Let's have a direct quote which turned
              out to be false.
              \_ Gee, I've got more than two hundred. Here's one, you
                 wilfully ignorant fool: "There is no doubt that Saddam
                 Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." --Dick Cheney
           \_ Clinton lost it during an interview with the BBC.  He accused
              them of siding with the "far-right" for asking a non-softball
              question.  At least with Republicans, it takes idiotic
              criticism night and day to finally see them pop, but with
              Democratic politicians, anything can make them burst, because
              of the constant coddling they get.  Bush and his crew, despite
              being accomplished and impressively educated, get called
              "stupid" by all kinds of Hollywood people who dropped out of
              high school and college to act.
                \_ I forgot to tell you Clinton doesn't control the world anymore.
              \_ I forgot to tell you Clinton doesn't control the world
                 \_ Fortunately, he never did.  What gave you the idea that
                    the US President controls the world?
              \_ Actually, only Bush gets called stupid.  (Cheney is called
                 evil, Rummy is called a warmonger, Wolfowitz is called
                 a neocon.)
              \_ Have you actually seen the Clinton interview?
                 The "losing it" bit is about 16-17 minutes into it.  I
                 don't think it is fair to say he lost it, but you should at
                 least see it yourself before you make up your mind.  (Oh and
                 a short 1 minute edited clip does not mean you saw it.) -aspo
                 \_ So you'll make sure in the future to not take Republican
                    statements and events out of context?  Is there a 17 minute
                    clip leading up to Cheney "losing it" we can watch?
                    \_ So I'll take it you haven't seen it?  When there are
                       clips available I'll watch them, when there are full
                       transcripts I'll read them.  In this case I really don't
                       think Clinton lost it at all, but yes I have a bias.
                       As for Cheney, I don't see why the fuck anyone cares.
                       All it means to me is that this adminstration is
                       feeling the heat a hell of a lot more.  Yay! -aspo
           \_ You know, I'm getting tired of this repeated lie.  The head of
              the 9/11 commission has said there's no significant difference
              between what the President and VP are saying and what the
              commission is saying.  You want to argue this?  Post your quotes
              and sign your name. -emarkp
              \_ The 9/11 commision and the President/VP are on the same
                 page as far as "'links' between al Qaeda and Iraq".  op is
                 wrong.  What the media jumped on was, "no collaborative
                 relationship" -- the NY Times overstated this by writing
                 "No Iraq-Al Qaeda Tie" in its headline.
                 \_ Yes, Saddam didn't help plan 9/11.  But there /are/ links
                    between Al Queda and Saddam's Iraq.  This is the same big
                    lie that poeple tell WRT illegal immigration.  When people
                    demand that immigration laws are enforced, the demagogues
                    say "why do you hate immigrants!".  I'm tired of it.
                    \_ Ok, there is a link between al Qaeda and "Saddam's Iraq"
                       but it's not really fair to say that.  The cell remotely
                       linked with al qaeda was in Kurds autonomous region,
                       outside Saddam's control, protected by US of A.
                       \_ The only control Saddam didn't have was air power
                          over certain regions.  Since he didn't have an air
                          force that hardly matters.
                    \_ There are links between Al Queda and a whole bunch
                       of other countries. Even the United States is "linked"
                       to Al Queda. We armed them in the 80's. Heck, about
                       19 of them were in the United States as they committed
                       a horrible act three years ago. But we can't invade
                       every damn country that's "linked" to Al Queda.
                       \_ You've stretched reality beyond the breaking point.
                          If this was a class paper (outside the Sociology
                          department), you'd get an "F" for that line of
                       \_ [ delete my post and I get to delete yours ]
                       \_ Logical reasoning is so tiresome.
                       \_ Relevance?  Saddam was courting them /recently/.
                          Also, the links were more substantial than the mere
                          presence of Al Qaeda agents in Iraq.  And sign your
                          posts. -emarkp
                          \_ "courting them": gotta back this up, d00d.
                              \_ Here's a link for you:
                                 http://tinyurl.com/2q6x5 (upi.com)
                                 \_ You're several days late; the CIA believes
                                    those were two different people.  -tom
                                 \_ That's it? One dude in a low-level
                                    militia is your collaborative link
                                    between Iraq and Al Queda? Even
                                    Pakistan has high level nuclear
                                    scientists doing more collaborative
                                    work with them.
                                 \_ There are more countries have bigger ties
                                    with Al Queda.  Why attack Iraq?
                                    \_ Al Qaeda isn't the only terrorist
                                 \_ That link does not show "courting", fool.
                          \_ Hmm, Saddam gave Atta(?) a visa and trained him
                             as a pilot?
                          \_ Al Qaeda wanted Iraq as a safe haven and for WMD
                             development, and Saddam never responded.  This is
                             the no "collaborative relationship" result.
                             \_ We attacked Iraq because it refused to
                                collaborate with terrorists.
2004/6/23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30964 Activity:very high
6/23    Read the interrogation memos yourself:
        Start with Feb. 1, 2002 (John Ashcroft's letter), it's short.
        Then go to Feb. 7, 2002 (Bush's memo).
        Now, my question:  Why isn't anyone talking about the "UN Convention
        Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or
        Punishment", which I believe should apply to everyone, al Qaeda
        Anyway, those two are really short reads, and it's interesting to
        see how the AP mischaracterizes some parts.
        \_ Another point is the Geneva Convention covers warfare between nation
           states, the Bush administration decided the taliban and
           al-queda are not valid nation states, so the geneva
           convention does not apply to such prisoners.  I don't
           agree at all but that's their reasoning.
           \_ Yeah, to put it succinctly, if you read the two memos I
              highlighted --
              Ashcroft said:  Afghanistan is a failed state!  Therefore,
                              GC does not apply to Taliban.
              Bush said:  I accept what Ashcroft said (and if he's wrong,
                          he takes all the blame).  But, I still say the
                          Taliban should be covered by GC, but I reserve
                          the right to remove GC coverage later.
           \_ Conversely, it's therefore okay for non-nation states to torture
              others since they are not signatories of the Geneva Convention.
              \_ It's not quite conversely.  Let's say al Qaeda chops off
                 heads in Iraq.  Then they could be prosecuted by the Iraqi
                 government for murder, or extradited to the U.S.  The
                 difference is, that if the U.S. tortures al Qaeda people
                 in Guantanamo, no one cares.  If the U.S. abuses an
                 al Qaeda suspect who turns out to be innocent and people
                 complain about it, then you have problems.
                 \_ If the US doesn't torture a guy who had information that
                    would have lead to saving thousands more American lives,
                    you'd be the first to bitch about it and blame Bush.
        \_ Okay, I'm answering my own question:
           See United States of America.  On signing, the USA made an
           exception for itself.  They took out "degrading".  Haha, I can't
           believe it was that straightforward.  Hahahahaha ... it's totally
           legal for U.S. forces to treat those not covered by GC in a
           degrading way.  This is what Bush means by never condoning torture
           or anything illegal, which is "true".
           Also, see this for the legal aspects behind torture at Guantanamo:
           Bottom line:  It's *all* legal!
                         (if they wanted to use torture there)
           \_ Well, the beating to death stuff is still illegal.
           \_ According to what you've posted, making prisoners stand naked
              would be acceptable.  Sexual assault, violence, and murder,
              however, would still be considered inhumane and would therefore
              constitute violations of the conventions.  In other words, Pfc
              England would be within the good zone if she just pointed, but
              would be in the bad zone if she touched.
              \_ Sexual assault, violence, and murder would be legal for
                 an al Qaeda member at Guantanamo.  Iraq is fully covered
                 by GC, on the other hand.  This is the Bybee memo that
                 the Bush adminstration has been disavowing as "too broad,
                 theoretical" for the last two days.
                 \_ No, murder, sexual assault (rape), and some forms of
                    violence would still not be ok.
                    \_ Not according to the Bush Administration. Well,
                       they would be "not okay" by policy, but Bush
                       claims that he is above the law and that the
                       Administration could not be punished by any
                       judge or legislative act. So the prison guards
                       could rape away without fear of any punishment
                       if that was Administration policy. Or so they
                       \_ Bullshit.  Show me where Bush said murder and rape
                          are ok in any American controlled prison.
                       \_ Don't forget:  Iraq, it's not legal; Guantanamo,
                          legal for al Qaeda members. -op
                    \_ That's right, torture/killing of al Qaeda members at
                       Guantanamo is "not okay" (Bush said don't do it), but
                       it's "legal".  Big difference. -op
                       \_ Torture, yes, of course.  Killing, no.  It is
                          intellectually dishonest to use "torture/killing"
                          as a one word phrase when only one part of it is
                          \_ Let's put it this way:  If an al Qaeda member
                             ends up dead at Guantanamo from a torture session
                             gone wrong, what charge will be brought?
                             Can we at least say that this manner of killing
                             is legal, as determined by the Bush adminstration?
2004/6/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30911 Activity:insanely high
6/18    New York Times 1998: Bin Laden and Iraq Made a Deal
        NY Times 2004: No Al Qaeda Iraq Connection
        \_ what kind of link?  the US originally passed billions
           in weapons and supplies to afghanistan via pakistan
           in the 80s, i'm sure some of it ended up with al-queda.  so
           we have a link to al-queda.  should we torture ourselves?
           \_ what?  huh?  what does the us giving weapons to the anti-soviet
              forces have to do with Iraq today or in 1998?
              \_ it has nothing to do with iraq.  it has everything to do
                 afghanistan and the early stages of the forming of
        \_ It's the NYT.  They have an agenda.  They push their agenda.
           Everyone knows it.  Why bother stating the obvious all the time?
           \_ What kind of agenda are they pushing if they're not even
              consistent among themselves?
              \_ It is very consistent.  In 1998 Clinton needed support for
                 his bombing campaign and distraction from his other issues
                 so there's this big link and deals are made and the NYT is
                 there as the big fly on the wall.
                 In 2004, Bush is the President so suddenly there was never
                 any connection.  Agenda.  See?  All the news that's fit to
                 print and fits the agenda.
        \_ 9/11 comission says link: http://csua.org/u/7tl
           Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between
           Iraq and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy.
           They were definitely there."
           Following news stories, Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton said he did not
           understand the media flap over this issue and that the commission
           does not disagree with the administration's assertion that there
           were connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's government.
           \_ Links, but no credible evidence of a collaborative relationship.
              \_ There's a shitload of evidence of a collaborative relation-
                 ship.  What there isn't is proof either way that Iraq was or
                 was not involved in 9/11.
                 \_ Dude, you should really stop parroting Cheney's line:
                    "We just don't know."  "No credible evidence", "no
                    convincing evidence" works much better.
                    \_ Anyone who could read a newspaper or URL was aware of
                       the truth before Cheney said it.  Should I invent my
                       own truth just so I'm not saying the same thing as him?
                       The truth it the truth.  You've said nothing to dispute
                       what I said.
        \_ Hey loser, the NY Times was reporting on what the 9/11 commission
           said.  The NY Times did err in having the headline "No Iraq-Al
           Qaeda link", but in the lead paragraph, they say, "no credible
           evidence of a collaborative relationship".  They shouldn't have
           pushed it, when they already had something good.
           They served it right up for Cheney and the Republican spin machine.
           \_ It isn't spin if you're correcting a media error.  That's called
              being right.
              \-I think this discussion is largely pointless without some
                threashold for what "involvement" involves ... otherwise you
                can claim there is a link between 9-11 and 7-11 because
                Md Atta bought a Super Big Gulp one night. For example,
                France denied overfly rights when the US went to bomb Libya.
                How does that compare to the level of support given to AQ
                w.r.t. to 9/11. I think you need to keep it focused to 9/11
                because if you just use the general standard of support of
                assorted terrorist groups, well then we've known about that
                all along [e.g. Abu Nidal] and it sort of seemed an expedient
                case of being "shocked, shocked". Keep in mind, the "western
                powers" have certainly harbored their share of thugs ...
                from Noreiga and the US, to the many African thugs and
                criminals with their "palaces" or hotel suites in various
                European capitals [Paris, Brussels, London], or on the Cote
                d'Azur. --psb
                \_ Moral equiv.  Good move.
2004/6/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:30898 Activity:insanely high
        What's the matter. Are you sick of people using the one quote
        you have against liberals and turning it into a joke?
        \_ What quote?  I didn't even know it was against liberals.  I never
           "got it".  You toss it around at random so it never means anything.
           \_ Are you fucking blind? "Why do you hate America?" is the most
              overused attack either on the motd and in the FoxNews media.
              That, followed by "Why do you support terrorists?"
              \_ On the motd it isn't an attack.  It's just spewed around at
                 random.  Maybe you thought it was some bit of cleverness.  I
                 am simply stupid because as I already said, I never got it.
                 I've *never* heard the line from any Fox media outlet or
                 any other place in the world outside the motd.  Has the motd
                 become a Fox media outlet?
                 \_ This post, just one week after 9/11:
                    9/19    Another one for the America haters
                    \_ That's it??!!  A single motd post from 9/19/2001 with a
                       freeper URL?  *That* is the source of all america
                       \_ No, I'm not talking about the source of all
                          "america hatred" but the accusations of others
                          hating America when they never admitted to it.
                          Go do your own homework. I'm not going to look
                          up all the motd entries for you. But just in case
                          you're too lazy, here's another one
                          7/4 Happy 4th of July!  (even to you America haters)
        \_ WHY ASK WHY?
2004/6/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30893 Activity:insanely high
6/18    AH-64 Apache engineer beheaded and photos uploaded with head placed
        on his back.
        \_why dont you so called hackers destroy their islamic websites?
          \_ why don't you so-called nationalist hawks destroy their ability
             to wage war on us?
             \_ Workin' on it.
             \_ working on it.  what have you done for the country lately?
                \_ great! and by "working on it" i suppose you mean supporting
                   a president who lied to the american people and the world
                   to divert our military efforts from fighting terrorism to
                   carrying out a war of personal vengance in iraq?
                   good for you! keep wasting time at your sysadmin job while
                   posting to the motd and freerepublic and we'll have those
                   islamists under control in no time!
                   \_ Nearly all Republicans think Dubya did it to protect
                      America, not as a matter of "personal vengeance".
                      \_ Since 50% of Americans think Saddam Hussein conspired
                         with Al-Qaeda, a lot of Republicans are misinformed,
                         to say the least.
                         \_ ... could be half Democrats, half Republican.
                            Anyway, the far more believable scenario is Bush
                            not being tall enough to cut through the crap and
                            seeing that there was no WMD threat, in spite of
                            Cheney/Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld/the CIA/Chalabi.
                            \_ Assuming Republicans are at least as likely to
                               believe the lies of a Republican administration
                               as Democrats, then 50% of Republicans are
                               \_ I already said that
                         \_ Well, the 9/11 commission is in that 50%.  Not
                            conspired to commit 9/11, but there were many
                            Iraq-Al Qaeda links.
                            \_ They said there is no credible evidence of a
                               collaborative relationship between Iraq and
                               Al Qaeda.  "Links" means Al Qaeda formally
                               requested Iraqi support, and Iraq never
          \_ Point me to some Islamic Websites to take down.  (No
             \_ in progress.  you let them get strong enough that it's going
                to take a while.
        \_ the beheading is part of terrorist's propaganda campaign.
           should the media keep on hyping this event?
2004/6/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30858 Activity:high
6/17    Bush disputes the Arch liberal 9/11 commission findings:
        \_ Presidents like this will destabilize the Middle East for years to
           \_ WDYHA?
           \_ Generations, damn it!  And that's American credibility.  Get
              the Big Lie right before you start telling it.
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30789 Activity:very high
6/14    if Osama gets caught, give him a sex change operation, big
        boobs and release him naked through the streets of saudi arabia
        \_ first, give him a queer makeover
           \_ Queer Eye For The Fear Guy?!
        \_ if osama gets caught, we're not gonna find out till at least
           a year later, if at all.
           \_ Smart money says he's already dead.  How do you get bi weekly
              kidney dialysis in a cave?!
              \_ By the grace of Allah!  Duh!
              \_ Smart money says that BushCo has him locked up overseas
                 somewhere and will unveil him in time for the election.
                 \_ No, that would be the long odds.  I give you 35:1.
                 \_ Nah, there won't be that big an october surprise.  It'll
                    be Al Zarakawi (sp?) the #2 guy that's been given us some
                    problems recently or maybe Al Sadr.
              \_ Nah, he was always a hypocondriac.  He isn't nearly as ill
                 as he always seemed to think he was or he would've been dead
                 years ago.
2004/6/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30745 Activity:insanely high
6/11    poll, USA was safer before/after the fall of USSR:
        before: .
        \_ better question is if the USA was safer before the Muslim
           genocides in the 800s or after
           \_ There was the USA in the 800s?
        \_ why do you hate America?
              \_ Inhabited by pre-Americans.
        \_ This is just stupid.  Was the USA safer when we and the USSR were
           pointing 30,000 nukes in each direction and willing to kill every
           human being on the planet or are we safer now that they're gone,
           the Russians are in the G8 and we have cordial chats with them
           about world affairs?  New poll: is it better to live a long and
           happy life or a short painful miserable one?  Duh.
           \_ myth: world was unsafe because of USSR
              fact: none of the nukes were actually used
              \_ fact: both sides had itchy trigger fingers.  you're safer when
                 one side ceases to exist and there's no one looking for an
                 excuse to destroy the world.  im stunned we're even having
                 this discussion.
           \_ But after the fall of USSR, their nukes can now be easily stolen
              or purchased for the price of a BMW.  So now we don't even know
              who has them.
              \_ Yes, but in this case, if ONE is used against us, it isn't
                 clear who we can counter-strike against, and then suddenly
                 we'll "find" lots of funds to go find the rest.
              \_ Exactly. It's the perception of ominous threat vs. reality.
                 In reality, we are in far more danger now because the nukes
                 can and will fall into the wrong hands now that there is no
                 more than an anemic military watching the shop. I'm not saying
                 the fall of the USSR was a bad thing, but this is not one of
                 the reasons it was a good thing. The USSR did not want to use
                 their nukes any more than the USA did. This cannot be said of
                 some of the folks with access now. -- ulysses
                 \_ Maybe, maybe, maybe, some terrorists will get a nuke,
                    figure out how to use it, get it somewhere, and detonate
                    it killing an entire city's worth of people.  The other
                    way the USSR and US were prepared to kill *everyone*.
              \_ Oh really?  So there are thousands of ex-USSR nukes around
                 now?  Where does it say they're that easy to buy?
        \_ when USSR existed, 1/2 of the rogue country's frustrations and
           anger were directed at USSR. Now all are directed at USA.
                    \_ I understand your probabilities argument but if it goes
                       off in my city. I'll be too dead and glowing to carei
                       how many other cities went at the same time.
                    \_ another problem with his probabilities argument is that
                       the ussr was brutal when it came to responses to arab
                       terrorists.  there was a kidnapping of some russians in
                       the early 80s.  the kgb sent the kidnapper his brother's
                       ears and one of his balls in a gift wrapped box.  the
                       hostages were freed and no other russians were ever
                       taken again until after the fall.
                       \_ Except most of the terrorists (and mideast states)
                          were funded by the KGB.
                          \_ No, they were self funded on their own oil sales.
                             The other arab states then funded terrorists
                             around/in Israel.
                       \_ Wow!  KGB >>> CIA.  KGB rule!!!
                       \_ URL please?
                          \_ What are the odds I can find you a URL from the
                             early 80s?
                             \_ I didn't want an URL from the 80s.  I want an
                                URL about that event in the 80s.
                                \_ Good luck.  The entirety of human history is
                                   not on the web.  You have everything I
                                   remember about the situation.  Go google for
                                   it for a few hours and let us know.
2004/6/10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30726 Activity:very high
6/10    This keeps getting deleted, but nevermind.  Global terrorism report
        being revised by State Department after Administration meddling.
        Revisions will show terrorism at highest level in 20 years, rather
        than lowest level in 34 years as originally stated.
        http://csua.org/u/7o4 (latimes via yahoo news)
        \_ Piffle.  An LA Times story with unnamed sources critical of the Bush
           administratioN?  What a surprise.  Wait until the facts come out and
           then post it again.
           \_ You are way, way understating this.  The poster, IMO, overstated
              somewhat.  Let's just call it what it is.  They are revising
              the report ... upward.
              And, a Washington Post story today:  http://csua.org/u/7op
              This is where you say, "Liberal media ... bad!"
              \_ Its only true if Rush Limbaugh says so.
                 \_ Rush never said you're an idiot, but it's still true.
                 \_ I always laugh when people attack radio, tv, newspaper or
                    other public figures they've never listened to, seen, read,
              \_ I didn't cry "libural media"--I was criticizing a single
                 paper.  I don't trust the LA Times or the NY Times unless it's
                 corroborated.  And I don't trust unnamed sources.  Oh, and I
                 don't listen to Rush.
        \_ revise the report to go back to 900 AD and see how much terrorism
           the muslim world produced
           \_ RACIST!
           \_ Why do you hate history?
           \_ Include the Crusades then too.
                \_ Crusades was dark ages version of "War on Terror"
2004/6/8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30670 Activity:insanely high
6/8     The very bottom of http://www.michaelmoore.com/index_real.php
        has a small article with the following paragraph:

        "When he was seven years old, Brandon Maxfield was accidentally
        shot in the face, becoming a permanent quadriplegic, completely
        paralyzed below the neck. The pistol that discharged while being
        unloaded was deliberately designed so that its safety had to
        first be moved from "Safe" to "Fire," making the trigger active
        and accidents more likely.

        I can't figure out what that last sentence is trying to say.
        \_ That you can't unload the gun with the safety on, and that's
           a bad feature for a gun.
           \_ It's also a bad idea to point a gun at a 7 year while
              unloading it.
              \_ Agreed.  In gun safety courses you're taught *never* to
                 point a weapon at something you don't intend to shoot.
                 Of course, young kids aren't typically sent through
                 hunter safety courses anymore.
                 \_ It doesn't say who was unloading the gun.  It feels to
                    me like the article leaves out details to obscure what
                    actually happened.
2004/6/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30620 Activity:nil
6/5     Gunman goes on armored bulldozer rampage -
        [URL fixed]
2004/6/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30528 Activity:high
6/1     "CNN - Government lawyers told the Supreme Court on Wednesday that the
        president has the legal authority to detain and interrogate suspected
        terrorists indefinitely without charging them regardless of whether
        they are arrested overseas or in the United States."
        Is this one easy or what?  This should be a unanimous ruling.  And if
        you have to ask, yes, unanimous AGAINST the power.  Otherwise we might
        as well start calling him King George II of the United States of
        America.  We even have Scalia saying that the president's commander in
        chief status "doesn't mean that he has power to do whatever it takes
        to win the war."
        \_ I thought he already is. If he wants to do something, just utter the
           "terrorist" word and no one will say otherwise. It's the magic word
           to get things done, like communism.
           \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?
              \_ WHY DO YOU HATE WHITE PEOPLE?
              \_ Because there's nothing to like about it!
                 \_ When are you leaving and for where?
        \_ You want to capture the TERRORIST or not!!
        \_ TERRORIST have no rights!
        \_ You sound suspiciously like a terrorist to me.
        \_ Why do you hate TERRORISM?
           \_ What's that? Terror-ism? Terrorgasm? Bush only uses "Terror".
              We are at war with an emotion.
              \_ Yes, Jeff.
        \_ Bush has the supreme court in his back pocket. He'll get
           what he wants.
           \_ I'm going to say this will be unanimous, and that this is the
              case the conservative justices will point to to show that
              they're not in Bush's back pocket.
              \_ I'll say 7-2. Scalia will write a convoluted dissent and
                 Thomas will say "me too."
                 \_ Why do you hate black people?  How long have you hated
                    black people?
                    \_ Clarence Thomas is black?  I thought the NAACP
                       revoked his membership.
                       \_ It's not what's on the outside, it's what's on the
                          Coke can that counts.
        \_ FOUR MORE YEARS!
2004/5/26 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30430 Activity:insanely high
5/26    Terrorists Have No Geneva Rights
        \_ This whole thing is very academic to me.  All I really care about
           is did the various abuses the prisoners underwent result in new
           intelligence that saved lives or did it not?  If it saved lives
           then whatever if some dude was naked in front of some chick or
           had to wear panties on his head.
           \_ saved whose lives?  every darn torturer would claim that their
              torturing is for some greater cause.
              \_ Saved American lives.  I don't care about any others if it
                 means a dead American.  And no, some torture is pure sadism.
                 Some is to get information.
                 \_ If you don't care about Iraqi lives, why are you in Iraq?
                    For the oil?
                    \_ American lives >> Iraqi lives >> terrorist rights not
                       to wear panties on head.  Oil is a dead energy source.
                       The amount being pumped from major sources around the
                       world has been shrinking the last few years and it's
                       getting harder and harder to get what's left.  They're
                       pushing the fields too hard and damaging some of them
                       as we speak and going back 3-5 years in some places.
                       Fighting for oil is stupid.  If that was all it was
                       about, the money was better spent doing fusion research
                       and building nuclear power plants.  If enriching GWB's
                       friends was the point, the money was better spent on
                       research and nuke plants and it would've made for better
                       polling numbers, too.  When I'm elected, that's the way
                       it'll be.  And yes, we'll continue spending money on
                       space exploration in a big way, too.  Lack of progress
                       in science = death.
        \_ Also on this site: Democrats cause cancer.
           \_ Is that why they hate America?
              \_ Why do you hate white people?
        \_ There are so many deceptions, errors of reason and outright
           falsehoods in this article that it is hard to decide where to
           begin, but I will start by saying the Geneva Convention applies
           to the signers no matter what the "other" side does. There is
           no provision for being released from it if the other side
           violates some provision of it, for reasons that should be
           violates some part of it, for reasons that should be
           obvious if you think about it for half a second.
           \_ Wrong! Have you even read the Convention, or are you
              paraphrasing a http://commondreams.org article?
              \_ Is it so hard for you to just post the relevant sections or
                 a link?
                 "In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in
                  peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases
                  of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may
                  arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties,
                  even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

                  The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or
                  total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting
                  Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed

                  Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party
                  to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties
                  thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations.
                  They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in
                  relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and
                  applies the provisions thereof."
                 The second-to-the-last sentence is ambiguous and sets in
                 motion the debate as to whether a signer is obliged to abide
                 by the conventions when not in conflict with another signer.
                 \_ And if you bothered to continue to article 4 you
                    would instantly recognize you are a complete moron.
                    Why do I bother arguing with someone who hasn't
                    even read the thing????
                    \_ Show me what part of article 4 applies. Quote
                       the specific passage. Article 4 just defines
                       what a Prisoner Of War is. It does not deal
                       with being released from the provisions of
                       the GC. I think you are reaching.
                       \_ You haven't figured out that this was whole
                          point of Yoo's article?  Let me spell it out
                          very simply: the Geneva Convention applies
                          to POWs, classification as a POW requires
                          that the individual satisfy several
                          preconditions articulated in article 4.  Why
                          do you think every subsequent part and section
                          begins with some reference to "prisoner of
                          war"?  The title of the the document is
                          "Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the
                          Treatment of PRISONERS OF WAR"
                          Is this a troll - are you feigning
                          \_ Doesn't GC cover non-combatants as well?
                             When did we declare the entire population
                             enemy combatants?  How does a democracy of
                             combatants work?
                             \_ GCIV covers non-combatants.  Resume Fight!
                             \_ GCIV covers non-combatants.
                                GCIII covers POWs.  Resume fight! *ding*
                                \_ So when the red cross reports that 70-90%
                                   of those held were not combatants, did
                                   nothing requiring detainment, how the hell
                                   does that jive wth the GCs?  Also, see
                             \_ Most of the world doesn't even accept the
                                whole "enemy combatant" designation as
                                a valid category:
                    \_ Motd. It's like Usenet, but more so.
              \_ I have obviously read and understood more of it than you.
        \_ John Yoo, Boalt professor, sponsor of both the Patriot Act
           and non-GC treatment in Afghanistan.  Clerked under Thomas.
           Descriptions of what counts as "torture" under federal law.  Yay!
           "It's fair to say that Berkeley is liberal and Boalt Hall is a very
           liberal law school. I wouldn't say I've ever had any problems with
           my colleagues. Almost all of them disagree with me, but are
           respectful of my ideas. They're more interested in debating rather
           than disregarding my beliefs."
           \_ impressive pedigree but unfortunately he is a statist.
              \_ Just goes to show that no matter how much of a right-wing
                 extremist you are, there is always someone worse.
                 \_ Right wing, bad!  Left wing, center!  Good!  Yes!  W00t!
                    AARRRRARRRARRRARAAARRRRGGHGHHHG!!!!  -- your guy last fall
                    \_ Again, when the right reaches for stuff this weak, you
                       know they know their boy's in trouble this November.
2004/5/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30425 Activity:insanely high
5/25    CNN: "Sources: Major terror attack possible this summer"
        Should I change my summer plans?
        \_ yes. they're on to you.
        \_ flee before the motd reports you to the fbi
        \_ It'll be fun to watch Rummy say how terrorists will try to
           influence the November election ala Spain. Vote Bush or the
           terrorists will win!
           \_ You've been alive for at least 6 months, right?  2 seconds after
              the Spanish bombings, *everyone* was saying they'd try to do the
              same thing here.  Where the hell have you been sleeping?
              \_ You misunderstood the remark. I want to hear the Republicans
                 state outright "Vote for Kerry and the terrorists win." There
                 has been lots of talk of the terrorists attacks influencing
                 the election, but no one big has yet politicized them to this
                 point. Fun! Fun! Fun! Feel the dark side!
                 \_ I see.  My misreading.  Nevermind.  Are you also waiting
                    for the Dems to say, "See?  If Kerry/Gore was in office,
                    these things would have never happened because the UN would
                    have been involved!"?
                    \_ Try googling
                       "would have never happened" "UN involvement"
                       and nothing turns up. Of course, I'm sure you feepers
                       and the Office of Information Manipulation will put
                       up a fake Dem website that says "If Kerry/Gore was
                       in office, these things would have never happened
                       because the UN would have been involved!"
                       \_ You understand the difference between the past which
                          would be a google search and the future which is what
                          the word "waiting" means, right?  Now go back and
                          try again after going to http://dictionary.com instead of
                          http://google.com and typing "waiting" into the box.
                    \_ You lose. Everyone already says that. Even Neocons will
                       state, if Gore were in office, Saddam Hussein would
                       still be in power, implying no war on Iraq, therefore
                       no mess in Iraq. Of course, Bush is now pushing the
                       terrorists / Al Quada == Iraq which is now true thanks
                       to the war. Ah, I love self fulfilling prophecies. It
                       makes me feel more an Evangelical Christian!
                       \_ Iraq?  We're talking about terrorism in the USA.  If
                          you were remotely on topic I might lose but since
                          you're off in babble land your post is bit-waste.
2004/5/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:30423 Activity:high
5/25    Don't believe it could happen?
        \_ it?  what it?  fucking trolls.  im not going to read your zero
           content teaser link.  that's almost as bad as a cock tease.  get off
           the motd you link tease.
           \_ It's not like it's a disguised freeper link.
              \_ It might as well be.  Why can't OP just say what "it" is?
                 Link tease!
                 \_ Operation Northwoods
                    \_ Which means what?  "Don't believe Operation Northwoods
                       could happen?  <url here>"  Ok, so what?
2004/5/24 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30396 Activity:high
5/24    More news on the bombed-out Iraqi border town the US says was a
        terrorist safe-house, and which the locals say was a wedding.  There's
        a videotaps of the festivities showing bride arriving and the men
        having a party.  There's film of the wedding singer, who is apparently
        semi-famous, and there's film of him being buried the next day in the
        same clothes he sang in. See it at:  http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5045772
        \_ don't they mix and match different events? like how do I know which
           things happened when and where?
           \_ Let's see.... are you seriously suggesting that the evildoers
              found a random wedding tape, then massacred the attendees,
              including children and the wedding singer, then drug the
              bodies over to the bombing site all in order to make the US
              look bad?
              \_ Why do you hate America?
              \_ No, but why is it impossible to believe that they hired
                 him for their wedding? Terrorists get married, too.
2004/5/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:30352 Activity:nil
5/21    http://csua.org/u/7ej (ABC News)
        30-year-old Abu Ghraib sysadmin Sgt. Provance stripped of his security
        clearance and told he may face prosecution because his comments were
        "not in the national interest."  He was probably smacked because:
        "Provance said when Fay interviewed him, the general seemed interested
        only in the military police, not the interrogators, and seemed to
        discourage him from testifying", making Maj. Gen. Fay (who has been
        assigned by the Pentagon to look into MI's role in the abuse) look
        really bad.
        \_ If you're a sysadmin you'd better be at least a Major.
           Sergeants get paid peanuts. They got what they paid for.
2004/5/21 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30336 Activity:very high
 5/21    Bomb Canada:
        http://tinyurl.com/32jdo (canada.com/national post)
        \_ If we're nice to the terrorists, they'll be nice back!  It's
           just because we're so mean that they attack!
        \_ I think we should negotiate with the terrorists.  Surely their
           demands are reasonable and can be accomadated.
        \_ I agree with both of the above.  If we just let them kill all the
           Jews, give them back Spain, build new Wahabi schools to educate
           more of their children, and all either convert or kill ourselves,
           they'll stop attacking us.
        \_ I think Bush and Osama need to get together for some
           tantric yoga.
        \_ Just think of how much more we could have gotten done in the war
           on terror if we hadn't listened to Chalabi.
2004/5/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Law/Court] UID:30332 Activity:high
5/20    Terrorist lawyer released.  (yahoo AP)
        \_ The fingerprints turned out to be from another guy.  But, the
           lawyer has a gag order on him.  From the story:
           Mayfield's brother, Kent, had to be pulled away from the TV
           cameras by Wax when he shouted out: "This proves it was a total
           \_ Can there be a blanket gag order to thwart all hate-america
              anti-freedom speech and writing?
              \_ But Foxnews said that freedom is slavery.  you're not
                 pro-slavery are you?
                 \_ We should all be slaves of God, Christ, and His
                    free market on earth.  Are you a godless communist?
              \_ Good way to kill what could have been a good conversation.  Do
                 you *really* prefer that the motd is just partisan noise?
2004/5/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30319 Activity:moderate
5/20    http://tinyurl.com/2g3gu (news.yahoo.com)
        And you thought Lindy England was bad.
        \_ Is she related to Libby Hoeler? Does that name ring a bell to
           anyone? She was famous during the .com boom.
        \_ It's definitely not as bad as you're saying.  The guy is already
           dead, and she had nothing to do with his death.
           \_ and how exactly do you know she had nothing to do with his
              \_ always assume the worst of people.  screw that innocent
                 before proven guilty bullshit.
           \_ The guys who were descerated in Fallujah were dead and the
              folks dancing around like idjits had nothing to do with their
              deaths. Their punishment was a hundred or so dead, many more
              wounded, and a month-long siege. It's all relative.
        \_ Seems like the little fish that are being fried are fighting
           back. Hopefully, the bigger fish will get their due.
                            \- random observation: are all the low level
                               people involved so far in the pictures
                               white people? --psb
                               \_ No. There is one black dude involved.
2004/5/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30295 Activity:nil
5/19    All leftist half truths and lies on a single page for easy talking
        points reference.  Here's Dowd for your reading 'pleasure':
2004/5/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30282 Activity:nil
5/18    And the shit keeps hitting the fan.  Intel Seargent Samuel
        Provance alleges cover-up at Abu-Ghraib
        http://tinyurl.com/2w2ts (ABC News link)
2004/5/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30213 Activity:moderate
5/13    Leaking self-doubt: How the military outed its own scandal
        \_ Whatever.  The military was in the middle of conducting an
           investigation and was preparing a PR release when CBS found out
           about it and had to scoop the story to make it look like some
           all purpose military conspiracy to hide the truth.  They were asked
           to hold back on the photos until the military could get their report
           out (roughly 1 week) but this is CBS.  Not exactly the home of good
           journalism.  So some shmucks at CBS played 'gotcha!' and won
           because you can't fight the media on their own turf.  Think CBS is
           going to spend a lot of time highlighting all this?
           \_ How is this not good journalism? Should the media always self
              censor at the request of the government?
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30168 Activity:high
5/11    I'm waiting for the media and Dem. Congress to work themselves
        up into a frenzy over Berg's decapitation.  Of course no
        news organization will show the video on TV.
        \_ His family sent their son their just so they could blame it
           on Bushco.
        \_ I heard they played it on CNN.
        \_ "This kind of barbaric behavior will have the same effect it
           usually has: it will make civilized people around the world
           more determined than ever to exterminate al-Qaeda and its
           likeminded brethren.

           "Barbaric behavior doesn't win wars, it just makes your
           enemies more dedicated to their cause, which is why it's so
           important to eliminate the kind of barbarism we've recently
           seen at Abu Ghraib from our own side: because it just makes
           our enemies stronger. If we don't purge it root and branch,
           we've as good as lost the war. In more ways than one."
           \_ What do you hate America?  Why are you not on the side of our
              troops?  What's wrong with our heroic soldiers having some
              fun?  Why aren't Iraqis grateful enough to volunteer as comfort
              women and boys?
2004/5/9-10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30113 Activity:kinda low
5/9     http://breaking.examiner.ie/2004/05/01/story145446.html
        Why you shouldn't believe every report about terrorist plots uncovered
           \_ At a guess: Because people are always shouting at him?
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30091 Activity:nil
5/7     Shocking news flash!  Michael Moore is a self-promoting lying scumbag.
        \_ self-promoting?  sure.  everyone in the industry is.  lying?  The
           crux of his charge is that disney decided not to distribute his
           film because of pressure from politicians.  when he knew about it
           doesn't change the validity of the charge.  scumbag?  i'll leave
           that to people who know him.  Keep in mind that he was already on
           the cannes festival shortlist.
        \_ i can handle one little white lie by mm versus
           well just about 1000 other things going on right now.
           \_ Non sequitur.
        \_ If you read what Mickael Moore really said, that article does a very
           good job at taking stuff out of context to make him sound a lot
           worse that he really is.  Shocking news flash!  The Independent is
           a totally partisan rag!
        \_ You can't really fault a filmmaker for trying to create free
           publicity.  MM is indeed a lying scumbag, so much so that this is
           \_ Yes I can.
           like criticising the devil for smoking (though, i have to admit,
           i still am a bit of a fan), but it is his affinity for dishonesty
           *IN* his movies that is dispicable, not his self-promotion. -phuqm
           \_ Of Satan or Michael Moore? -- ilyas
        \_ shrug, what's wrong with having an agenda to make Disney look bad?
           He didn't lie in this instance.  He just held the news until he
           could exploit it to maximum negative effect.  Seems to me the
           reporter is just swallowing the freeper spin hook, line, and sinker.
2004/5/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30010 Activity:very high
5/4     What's the probability of Bush getting reelected? Will he stage
        something like the Taiwan president did? (ie, let one terrorist
        attempt be successful the week before election?)
        \_ You mean like 9/11?
           \_ on a much smaller scale. 911 again would be bad for Bush.
              \_ Another 9/11 would be great for Bush.  It would also result
                 in a draft, large scale mobilization of industrial capacity
                 of the US, and the summary squishing of most of the Middle
                 East, in my opinion.  Bush is at his best in squishing mode.
                 Nothing's scarier than a pissed off America mobilized for war.
                 What's happening now is scary enough, and we aren't even on
                 anywhere close to war footing.  -- ilyas
                 \_ Hmm. I'm not so sure about this. If it was Bin Laden again,
                    well, it doesn't look like there would be anything in
                    particular to do about it. I don't think congress would
                    jump on board a general "war on muslims" policy. The other
                    dictators are being pussies lately. Hell, Saddam was trying
                    hard to be a pussy until the end.
                    \_ Not 'war on muslims', 'war on fundamentalist islam, and
                       middle eastern dictatorships'.
        \_ You know, Oliver Stone foretold all of this in Wild Palms
           s/911/boca raton nuke/g and it's very creepy - even to the
           part about the "Liberty Bill"
        \_ according to John Zogby it's very close to 50/50, and he makes money
           off of being right, not off of being partisan one way or the
        \_ I'd be really curious what the oddsmakers have on it.  Can you bet
           point spread on elections or is it only up/down?
           \_ The Insider has it at 9/8, tradesports at 58/42. You can
              bet on total electoral votes on tradesports. Betting on
              elections is illegal in the United States.
              \_ What are the odds on the US "suddenly" capturing UBL in
                 \_ The odds on him being captured by Set are 30/70, by
                    the end of the year 40/60.
2004/5/2-4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:29951 Activity:high
5/2     Everyone be sure to watch "10.5" on NBC tonight from 9-11 PM. It's
        TV at its finest!
2004/5/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26955 Activity:nil
5/1     General Suggests Abuses at Iraq Jail Are Encouraged (warm up part
        of intel interrogation)
        \_ Those pictures show why there should be no women or gays
           in the military.  What is shown is those pictures is
           nothing more than hazing.
2004/4/27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:13414 Activity:nil
4/27    Interesting little article on early (18th century) terrorists.
        \_ OMG! WTF? LOL! Worldnetdaily, heh.
        \_ 1) They're pirates, not terrorists. 2) There's an article on the
           Library of Congress site that does a better job of outlining the
           \_ You're wrong too.  Pirates are people who copy CDs, instead of
              meekly paying out for everytime they scratch the original disc.
              \_ Piracy : robbery on the high seas
              \_ *laugh* yeah right, like the *only* mp3s you have are either
                 from copyright free sources or replacements for cds you
                 scratched.  that's sooo believable.
2004/4/27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:13407 Activity:nil
4/27    Terrorist attacks in Syria?
2004/4/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, ERROR, uid:13262, category id '18005#5' has no name! , ] UID:13262 Activity:nil
4/18    Besides frontline what is good to watch online?
        \_ http://www.cspan.org
           Has cspan, cspan2, cspan3, cspan radio and archived bits from
           the various cspans.  All free.
        \_ http://Archive.org has a ton of "ephemeral films" free to download.
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:13204 Activity:nil
4/14    For every American hero killed, we should dispose of 100 Iraqi
        \_ you mean dispose 100% terrorist before an American is killed
           \_ I mean this will teach those Iraqi terrorists a good lesson.
              \_ Especially those who were pro-American before an errant
                 bomb decimated their village.
                 \_ Name an Iraqi village that got decimated by an errant bomb.
                 \_ Bombs are smart but people are stupid, at least the
                    terrorists are.  They just don't want to be liberated.
2004/4/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:13196 Activity:nil 61%like:13197
4/14    What media bias?  (different article, different topic, same theme)
2004/4/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:13176 Activity:nil
4/13    John Ashcroft testimony for 9/11 commission paraphrased: It's not
        our fault. It's Clinton's fault. Had we known exactly when, where,
        and how a terrorist attack was going to take place, we would have
        stopped it. We need the US PATRIOT act.
        \_ To paraphrase John Stewart, the buck does not stop anywhere near
           these guys.
        \_ at least this time you included a transcript with your biased crap.
2004/4/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:13137 Activity:low
4/11    Read the Presidential Daily Briefing for yourself:
        \_ Yeah, but this was during Bush's vacation. I know I don't pay
           attention to stuff on vacation.
        \_ If any of you were President at the time what would you have done
           differently that wasn't already being done and why would you have
           done so without hindsight to guide you?
           \_ I'd've solidified no-fly-zone policies nationwide, and I would
              have made it clear that shooting down a passenger plane or three
              is preferable to the use of planes as bombs.  I would have
              made it clear that any lack of communication between the FBI,
              CIA, and NSA not having to do with Congressionally legislated
              limitations would result in the immediate termination of the
              various directors involved. These are old problems, and they
              should have been dealt with.
              \_ No fly zones?  Wouldn't have helped.  A national order on
                 shooting down planes?  You wanted to be impeached?  You wanted
                 the various 3 letter agencies to communicate with each other
                 in VIOLATION OF THE LAW and bring the privacy nuts down on
                 your head?  Okey dokey!  So you'd be about as effective as my
                 dog as President.  Probably less so.  My dog is very cute.
                 \_ How wouldn't no-fly zones have helped? How does having a
                    policy on when it's acceptable to shoot down a plane
                    become an impeachable offense?  What part of "any lack
                    of communication between the FBI, CIA, and NSA not having
                    to do with Congressionally legislated limitations" is
                    in violation of the law?  When will you stop fellating
                    your dog and post something intelligent?
              \_ I'd have ignored it since they haven't killed enough people
                 to be significant. When they pass the magic total, I'll use
                 it as an excuse to create an American hegemony in the Middle
                 East. Perferably one with lots of oil.
                 \_ I'd also cut anti-terrorism funding because we all hate
                    swatting at flies.
                 \_ Magic total = 911 people?
                 \_ Contestant number 3, are you the son of a former
2004/4/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:13134 Activity:high
4/11    Bush knew!  He's going down!  Kerry'04!
        |_ restored after you can't deal with the truth
        \_ go fuck yourself.
2004/4/9 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:13109 Activity:nil
4/8     I'm driving up to Seattle/Vancouver on Sunday just for kicks. Any
        suggestions of places to stop on the way? So far I've been recommended
        the Tulip Festival in Skagit (tulipfestival.org).
        \_ I'm leaving Sunday and have to be in Seattle on Tuesday, so like
           the person below says... I am sort of "blasting" through. However,
           I would like to make a 3-4 detour either through a national forest,
           quaint town, or something like that. The suggestions below are all
           great... much appreciated.
        \_ errr ...  that's a very long drive with literally hundreds
           of places on the way worth visiting.
           \_ yes, that's teh problem, so much to do, so little time.
                http://traveloregon.com is a pretty good site.
           \- helo if you are interested in geology, there are some
              interesting locations in eastern oregon to drive through
              rather than blasting up 5. but yeah, you have to put
              more on the table for meaningful feedback.
        \_ If you're going through Portland, I recommend stopping at
           Powell's bookstore.  I've been told it's the biggest bookstore.
                \_ Powell's rocks.  Also in Portland is the nickel arcade
                   (very cheap arcade games) and Dot's, a dive-y bar with
                   a sock monkey tree.  I recommend the Lime Rickey.  -brain
                   \_ An arcade? give me a break...
        \_ Redwood national forest on the border btw Oregon and CA, and
           some volcanic lake the name of which I forgot somewhat more inland.
           These things stand out on any map so I guess maybe you are not
           into nature things if you bothered to ask.
           \_ Crater Lake.  It's cool.  I think it's a National Park.
              \_ I was thinking about going here. What's it like? Big holes
                   in the ground, volcanic ash?
                 \_ It's a beautiful deep blue lake that is very deep.  It's
                    surrounded by a cliff rim all the way around that drops
                    several hundred feet to the lake surface.  There's a
                    funny little island in the middle you can take a boat out
                    to.  You can also hike up to some of the little peaks
                    around the rim.
        \_ Portland's rose garden is nice, though probably not so much so this
           time of year.
        \_ The Bridgeport Brewery in Portland:
           Free tours at 2 and 5 daily.
        \_ don't forget to pick up danh on your way back
        \_ Lake Shastina. Say hi to Ponch while you're there.
2004/4/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:13098 Activity:nil
4/8     Claim vs. Fact with Rice's Opening Statement and Q&A:
        \_ Cool, mind if I send you to an equally biased site for a
           "claim vs fact" on this or other hot button topics?  Why do so
           many of you think your biased crap will be taken seriously by
           anyone who isn't already a singing member of the choir?
           \_ Hey, if we can have freep and drudge links we can have
              American Progress links.  They're more credible than both of
              those sites put together anyway - the left equivalent to
              freep would be international ANSWER, or something...
2004/4/6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:13033 Activity:nil
4/6     Gary Hart: We warned Bush in January 2001 about probable terrorist
        threat; why hasn't 9/11 commission called us?
        \_ Because Gary Hart is a liar and a piece of shit has-been and no one
           cares what he thinks or claims to know about anything?
2004/4/6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:13032 Activity:high 50%like:13030
4/6     Don't you hate it when facts get in the way of your book sales?
        \_ Here's a much better article on the same subject:
           \_ You are joking right?
                \_ if you have to ask...
                   \_ exactly.
                      \_ i don't get it
2004/4/6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:13030 Activity:high 50%like:13032
4/5     Damn it, I hate when facts get in the way of my book sales!  --clarke
        \_ Damn it, I hate it when the real news doesn't furnish pithy,
           topical subject lines, so I have to resort to my limited creative
           writing skills.
           \_ Clue bat: this isn't a news site.  If you want boring, go read
              CNN.  But you do score half a point for completely ducking the
              content and point of the URL.  Maybe next time you'll get an
              entire cookie!
              \_ Damn it, I hate it when people having fun pointing out the
                 faults in my posts gets in the way of my trolling! --op
                 \_ Keep ducking.  So far you've got 2 ad hominens, 2 ducks
                    and 1 falsely signed post and 0 real replies.  --real op
2004/4/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29901 Activity:nil
4/2     Brits, Japanese, Germans, and Aussies to be fingerprinted at
        Passport Control:
        http://csua.org/u/6qe (NYTimes by way of Google)
        Question:  Will my wife, who has a Green Card, be subjected to
        this, or is it just for temporary visitors?
        \_ I'll bet you my U.S. passport that if the Bush junta gets another
           4 years of power, this will include U.S. citizens, canadians, and
           everyone else within four years.  Right now the U.S. is very clearly
           on the road towards fascism, and if America falls no one will be
           safe anywhere.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:12995 Activity:high
4/2     http://tinyurl.com/2h3cv
        "Russia said in February that it was developing a so-called
        hypersonic missile technology capable of piercing the United
        States' system. But Mr. Ishiba said he did not believe that a
        shield would encourage other countries to develop missiles that
        would defeat the system. "If you launch a missile and it gets
        shot down," he said, "you give up missile production." "
        ** Huh? **
        \_ saying that if the non-hypersonic missiles get shot down
           why bother with missiles
        \_ Maybe he's trying to say there's cheaper ways of fucking us up.
           \_ The argument for missle defense is not that it will be
              perfect. That's stupid.  The argument goes more like: (as a
              metaphor)  Despite the locks on your door, thieves can
              metaphor)  Despite the locks on your door, theives can
              break in and steal.  Should you therefore leave the door
              \_ I've never felt safer than when i lived just up from a crazy
                 biker dude who left his front door literally wide open all
                 the time.  if anyone wanted to rob our place, they'd probably
                 the ceiling.  the DETERENCE of the mad biker was much more
                 just wander in the front door and get blasted straight through
                 the cieling.  the DETERENCE of the mad biker was much more
                 \_ Ok you're safer from random violence. But psycho biker may
                    attract violence, or somehow harm you. I'd rather just live
                    in a normal neighborhood and take steps.
                 useful than a locked door.  deterence has worked with nuclear
                 weapons for half a century as well.
              \_ How much have we spent on Star Wars? $100B? $200B?
                 \_ About $2b total, mostly in basic research to get where we
                    are today.  Please stop inventing random numbers.  With $2b
                    they wouldn't be *any* safer after the union driven harbors
                    got their fingers in the pie.
                 How much safer could our harbors and airports be
                 for that much money?
              \_ But it'd be easier for a terrorist to sneak a nuclear
                 device in the same way drugs get in here from South
                 America.  So the argument is more like: What good is
                 locking your door if you've got a gaping hole in your
                 wall big enough to drive a car through?
                 \_ Umm, not exactly.  Nice red herring though.  We have
                    something of a defense against that.  It sucks, but
                    it's not nothing.  We have NO defense against
                    \_ But what's the bigger threat?  Terrorists are
                       the main bad guys these days, and they don't
                       usually go for (expensive) ICBMs when they have
                       cheaper and simpler options.
                       \_ The red herring here is that we should/can only
                          \_ No, the red herring is that a $30 lock is
                             analagous to a $200 billion missile defense
                             system.  The missile defense system is simply
                             not cost-effective; a lock on your door is.
                             \_ What is the cost of a city getting incinerated?
                                I suspect more than $200b.  What is the cost
                                of your house getting robbed?  I suspect less
                                than $200b.  You're struggling with the concept
                                of appropriate levels of response.  The correct
                                level for keeping a city from turning to ashes
                                is much higher than for your bike parked out
                                on telegraph.
                          defend against a single threat.  The reality is that
                          we should try to defend against all threats.  Natn'l
                          defense is not an either-or proposition.
                       \_ That's true that terrorists are the bigger
                          threat, but that's doesn't make them the ONLY
                          threat.  We're working on how to stop
                          terrorists, but don't be fooled into thinking
                          that NK, China, or even Russia are completely
                          neutralized.  With the lazer 747 we can help
                          defend Japan and SK against the North.
                          \_ what do you mean "even russia"?  russia
                             is still the only country that can
                             incinerate the entire USA if it so chooses.
                             strong man putin is pulling russia back
                             on its feet, and in this era of cheap
                             labor and high material costs, the vast
                             land and riches of mother russia is
                             going to benefit russia tremendously.
                             the russian bear shall rise again!
                             \_ "incinerate the entire USA".  So you think a
                                country that can potentially only incinerate
                                the west coast such as China or NK isn't a
                                threat?  btw, russia is still going through the
                                death throes of self destruction.  they are
                                not yet in a recovery phase.
                                \_ you are out of date.  russia is very
                                   much into recovery.  It is using the
                                   formula of get rich first with capitalism
                                   under strong authoritarian leadership
                                   \_ russia is fucked.  their last election
                                      was a total joke.  they're teetering on
                                      the edge of dictatorship (again) and now
                                      they have a broken military *and*
                                      terrorists beating on their doors at
                                      the same time.  i'm not out of date.  im
                                      right here in 2004.  you're living in the
                                      hey day of post-communism but before they
                                      saw how hard the road to freedom really
                                      is.  oh yeah and their environment was
                                      and still is *devastated* from what the
                                      communists did to it which makes our
                                      worst problems look like a fairy land of
                                      healthy goodness.  russia = fux0red.
                       cheaper and simpler options.
                                \_ you are out of date.  russia is very
                                   much into recovery.
                                   followed by US allies like Japan, S. Korea,
                                   Taiwan, Singapore, etc.  when these nations
                                   were in a similar stage of development.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12989 Activity:nil
4/2     For the interested (and since it was deleted right after I posted it),
        the raw numbers for the 308k jobs added in March are at:
        To the person claiming it was all part-time jobs:  how many of the
        "jobs lost under Bush's watch" were part-time?  And how many weren't
        directly attributable to 9-11 (hint: 1 million jobs lost because of
        \_ http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t05.htm
           300,000 of those jobs are part time
           \_ I believe you're pointing to the 'household survey' which isn't
              the same bunch of numbers at all.  Also, how many of the
              previously lost jobs were part time?
              \_ I am not the only one saying this. The chief economist of
                 Wells Fargo says the same thing:
                 It is a good number, but not a great number. Expect
                 employment numbers to go down next month.
                 \_ Expect employment numbers to go up/down based on what?
                    I love the motd prophets.  Was that tea leaves or chicken
        \_ Both your links are not working because the .gov cannot seem to
           afford servers robust enough to handle the load.
           \_ Because it was posted on some very active news sites.  It'll be
              easier to read in a few days.
2004/3/31-4/1 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12941 Activity:moderate
3/31    Guess who used to believe in the Iraq/al-Qaida connection?
        From your favorite neo-marxist Christopher Hitchens
        \_ You know that some (but not all) of so called neo-con
           movement are formerly known as liberals.  One even
           likened the U.S. to the Soviet Union appreciatively.
                \_ I have no idea what you are trying to say.
        \_ uh, no news here... Hitchens used to be really liberal
           until 9/11
        \_ You don't believe Iraq was funding any terrorists?  How is that
           when it is public info announced to the world by Iraq under Saddam?
           \_ Funding which terrorists?  And don't say they're all the same;
              many of the groups have trouble _not_ bombing each other, let
              alone the infidels.  The point, in my mind, is that Iraq had
              nothing to do with the Al Qaeda attack on the WTC and nothing
              to do with Al Qaeda afterwards.  There was no justification
              there for invading Iraq.
           \_ "Terrorists" are not one big team.  This is not G I Joe.  And
                usually if you want to be taken seriously, you cite an article
                where you are getting this "public info."  The assertion that
                there were WMDs was also "public info" but that information,
                like yours, was not backed by any real facts.
              \_ You're nuts, dude.  He was giving bounty money to families
                 of suicide bombers.  What more do you want?  One of the
                 original cashed checks after it went through the Bank Of
                 \_ Thanks for the psych eval.  Bounty money to families of
                    suicide bombers != justification for invasion.  It was
                    bad, yes, and needed to be dealt with, yes, but not
                    necessarily through invasion.
                    \_ I hear this a lot, and would completely
                       agree if SOMEONE could just make a reasonable
                       alternate suggestion.
                       \_ Well, tell what your parameters are for "reasonable"
                          and I'll try to put one together for you. If your
                          definition of "reasonable" requires an instantaneous
                          solution, I doubt I'll be able to help you.
                       \_ Israel could just seize the money.  Duh.
                       \_ It is our moral duty to oppose immoral actions on
                          the part of our government.  It is the duty of
                          our government to propose moral solutions to
                          problems.  If the only solution the government can
                          come up with is an immoral solution, the govt. is
                          not trying hard enough.  Being unable to provide
                          an alternative solution does not justify an
                          unlawful solution.
                \_ Hamas is not America's problem. Since when did we invade
                   foreign powers at Israel's bidding? Do we invade Boston
                   next because some Irish give checks to the IRA?
                   \_ Isn't Israel the 51st state?
                      \_ s/Israel/Puerto Rico/
        \_ The fact that terrorists like the Jordanian caught with his
           passport when his car bomb did not go off, along with calls for
           holy warriors to converge on Iraq, should prompt 1) apologies from
           the left for their lack of vision 2) relief that terrorists are
           necessarily converging in smaller numbers here, given there
           are not an infinite number of terrorists.
           \_ Dude, I can't believe you just paraphrased the Emperor.
           \_ I got your apology right here, bitch.
           \_ While I certainly believe in the maxim "the best defense
              is a good offense" especially in warfare, there is another
              one which is even more appropriate "strategy is the art
              of multiplying your allies, while isolating your enemies."
              Bush's actions have succeeded in doing exactly the opposite.
2004/3/30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12934 Activity:nil
3/30    English majors are all lefties!
        \_ Starts out fun, but then launches into uncalled-for, irrelevant
           ad-hominem attacks on authors championed by the liberal Liberal Arts
        \_ No shit sherlock. It's always the dumb humanities kids who start
           and take part in all the protests. Useful idiots indeed.
           \_ Humanities students are no more or less dumb as a group than
              engineering students.  Propensity for blatant generalizations,
              \_ prove it.
                 \_ Thanks for your comment, demonstrating that engineering
                    students can be just as dumb!
                    \_ can't prove your assertion, can you?
                       \_ I don't have to.  The assertion that must be
                          proved is that humanities student --> dumb, which
                          is patently ridiculous.
                          \_ "patently ridiculous" means you have no factual
                             proof against the claim, right?
                             \_ Correct!  There is absolutely no way to prove
                                humanities student --> dumb, its just small
                                dicked engineering student smug superiority
                                syndrome rearing its ugly head for the
                                zillionth time.
                                \_ how about entrance exam scores?  or
                                   relative performance in "neutral" classes?
                                   or post college achievement?  none of them
                                   are perfect measures, but they would tend to
                                   make claims of patent ridiculousness
                                   \_ Yeah, but none of them would prove the
                                      assertion at all.
                                      \_ The assertion that humanities students
                                         are dumb, or that they're no more or
                                         less dumb?  Certainly the first
                                         assertion is the one requiring proof.
                                      \_ by again refusing to answer the
                                         question, i assume you realize that
                                         while my suggestions would not
                                         perfectly prove or disprove the
                                         proposition, it would make your
                                         claim of "patently ridiculous", well,
                                         patently ridiculous.
                                \_ of course, you have completely misinterpreted
                                   the post you replied to.  a claim that dumb
                                   humanities students do something does not
                                   imply the claim that all humanities
                                   students are dumb.
                          \_ Actually, the claim is that, as a group,
                             humanities students are as smart as engineering
                             students.  To disprove this, you just have to
                             show, as a group, that one group is smarter than
                             the other, using some accepted metric
                             \_ great.  what are the relative entrance
                                exam scores between the 2 groups?  what
                                is their relative performance in "neutral"
                                classes?  how do the post college achievement
                                of the 2 groups compare?
                                \_ Come to think of it, the claim is "no
                                   more or less dumb".  This implies the metric
                                   is "common sense", not intelligence in
                                   general.  In this sense, it can be
                                   reasonably claimed that humanities and
                                   engineering students as groups have
                                   similar levels of common sense (are no
                                   less dumb than the other group).
                                   \_ Why yes, that's pretty much what I meant.
                                      At least someone gets it.  For some
                                      reason as soon as you say "intelligence"
                                      some people here automatically assume
                                      you must be referring to "ability to do
                                      second order differential equations."
                                      Sorry, I should have been more clear.
                                      \_ Guy, you don't even understand that
                                         the claim of stupid humanities kids
                                         doing something is not equivalent to
                                         a claim  that all humanities students
                                         are stupid.
                                   \_ Does the common understanding of
                                      "dumb" imply a lack of common sense?
                                      Well, dumb originally meant the inability
                                      to speak, as in "deaf and dumb".  Does
                                      that have anything to do with common
                                      sense?  "Dumb" came to mean, from WordNet
                                      via dict, "slow to learn or understand,
                                      lacking intellectual acuity".  Does that
                                      have anything to do with common sense?
                                      Are you ascribing new meaning to the word
                                      just to make your claim plausible?
                                      \_ Someone please shoot this guy.  His
                                         pretentiousness is starting to make
                                         my head hurt.
                                      \_ Dewd, he already said sorry for not
                                         being clear.
                                         \_ Was he unclear?  Or did he just
                                            latch onto some non-plausible
                                            excuse that would make his claim,
                                            well, less "dumb"?  I suspect the
              however, can be found in almost any group of students.
2004/3/30-31 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12921 Activity:very high
3/30    Chen permits recount to proceed immediately, Taiwan stock market soars
        http://csua.org/u/6o4 (NY Times, password needed)
        U.S. forensics team talks with doctors, note openness of investigation
        Same experts discuss common misperceptions about the ballistics
        Chen comments on China's predicted hard-line move in Hong Kong
        Moron complains about Taiwan election
        \_ CSI Taipei!  Was David Caruso there?
        Same experts discuss common misperceptions about the ballistics
        Chen comments on China's predicted hard-line move in Hong Kong
        Moron complains about Taiwan election
        \_ Given Chen's long history as a drama queen and the very close
           vote count, the opposition's peaceful and orderly demand for a
           recount and investigation into the shooting incident is totally
           \_ You should talk to the DPP college student getting beat on TV
              by 4+ KMT folks for speaking to TV reporters just outside
              their rally.
              \_ Is that the best you can come up with for a rally of
                 500k people?  how many people did the DPP mobs beat
                 up in its many rallies over the years?  These days,
                 in many places in Taiwan, if you don't speak Taiwanese,
                 you can get cursed and ostracized, thanks to DPP's
                 divisive politics.
                 \_ And how many of those people (who watch KMT-biased TV
                    coverage) believe in the faked assassination theory?
                    Your dismissal of KMT's televised violence is also
                    \_ feel free to post urls of any other violent
                       rally incidents from the multitudes of pro-DPP
                       newspapers as opposed to your so-claimed
                       "KMT-biased TV".
        \_ This entire thing has missed a huge point.  Extremely large
           number of military personnel were denied their consititution
           right to vote.  And it turned out that there is no legal basis
           for their detention.  Thus, by definition, this election
           result is invalid, and thus, the legimacy of this so-called
           democratic government is in question.
           \_ Are you talking about Taiwan or the US?
           \_ First URL, a viewpoint not well-covered by the KMT-controlled
              press:  "The opposition Nationalist Party on Monday publicly
              dropped its demand that the Taiwan military be allowed to
              vote again after a disputed presidential election a week ago...
              Mr. Chen and the Defense Ministry replied that the
              alert had had no effect on voting, because staggered shifts
              had made it possible for the servicemen and police officers
              to vote."
              \_ Contrary to what this guy is saying, KMT doesn't control
                 the press at all.  Chen and DPP is the government in
                 power, and has systematically moved to control the press
                 to silence the opposition.  Just recently, the owner of
                 a pro-DPP press told all its employees to vote for DPP
                 or be fired.
                 \_ URL?  'Cos the same rumor mill sez the KMT drinks the
                    \_ This is in the news a few weeks before the
                       election.  Go ask a few people in Taiwan and you
                       should find someone who've read about it.  Taiwan
                       related news sites don't seem to keep good
                       archives of older articles online, so I can't
                       find any url, unfortunately.
                    blood of babies.
                    \_ See "Formosa Betrayed" written by U.S. vice consul
                       during the 2/28 incident.  obGoogle.  There is a
                       similar book called "Formosa Calling".  Both are
                       published way back.
                       \_ errr .... 228 incident is 57 years ago.  Taiwan's
                          government, while under KMT, had admitted to the
                          wrong doing, and had compensated families of the
                          victims long ago.  Taiwan has been under pro-
                          independence presidents for the last 16 years.
                          yet, DPP supporters like yourself constantly need
                          to bring up 228 for political purposes to fan
                          hatred against mainlanders and their descendants,
                          most of whom has nothing to do with 228, or
                          \_ actually, I just bring up 2/28 to criticize
                             the KMT as a political party.  I think you're
                             being a bit prejudiced.
                          weren't even born then.
                 \_ http://tinyurl.com/3xwo6
                    Search for "station".  You'll find other links on google.
                    Like I said yesterday, the KMT has had over 50 years of
                    total control of Taiwan to consolidate its power.
                    \_ snicker ... this starry eyed russian commentator has
                       no clue what he is talking about.  he portrayed
                       putin and chen as heroes of democracy.  I bet he is
                       real happy with putin and his rubber stamp parliament
                       and recent election.  chen of course, could not care
                       less about the development of democratic principles and
                       institutions.  he will bend all rules as long as it
                       helps him win.  the commentator also portrayed Lee
                       Teng-hui as representative of the big-bad KMT.  He
                       didn't even know Lee has always sympathized with
                       everything the DPP believes in, and made it his
                       personal life mission to destroy the KMT from within.
                       what a joke!  Of all things, you chose this
                       clueless commentary to post.
                       \_ Uh ... the point is that the KMT controls the major
                          TV stations, and stirs up anti-Chen sentiment in
                          order to get the KMT back into office.
                          I just want to make sure you see this.
                          \_ I am sorry, but if this Russian commentator is
                             so clueless about the above, you can't
                             expect anyone to accept his unsupported
                             assertion the Taiwan's media is controlled
                             by the KMT.  Besides that piece of clueless
                             writing was from 4 years ago, kind of
                             outdated.  I don't know about TV, but
                             contrary to your belief, most of Taiwan's
                             \_ So what would you say if I provided a URL
                                that showed the KMT controls the major
                                TV stations?  Does it suffice to say that
                                most newspapers are pro-DPP, and most
                                TV stations are pro-KMT?
                                BTW, it was my mistake way above.  When
                                I said "press", I meant to say "TV".
                          I just want to make sure you see this.
                    \_ snicker ... this starry eyed
                             newspapaers are actually pro-DPP.
        \_ btw, someone broke http://csua.org/u see motd entries above
2004/3/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12910 Activity:kinda low
3/29  What does Condi have to hide?
      \_ yea, she's Black, she must be hiding something..
      \_ What do YOU have to hide?  Why do we have that pesky 4th amendment?
      \_ What did Clarke have to hide?
            possible news program talking about the same topic.
         \_ I think the distinction here is that Clarke wasn't going on every
            possible news program talking about the same topic.  This is a
            drudgereport flurry over absolutely nothing.  Nobody is contesting
            the claiming of separation of powers concerns.  They haven't
            subpoenaed her or any others.  But members of the commission from
            both sides of the aisle are urging her to come forward.  The
            distinction is not small.  Now, if Clarke had criticized her and
            the administration for doing this, that could be a legitimate
            flash-in-the-pan topic, but this more of the same drudge drivel.
            \_ She has offered to come forward in closed session.  Only
               grandstanding politicians are insisting on public testimony.
               Specifically, Lee Hamilton said:
               "But there's another whole dimension here, and that dimension is
               the public dimension -- and I think the American public would
               benefit from hearing Condi Rice testify under oath."
               Isn't the panel trying to find out what happened?  Why does
               Hamilton think it needs to happen in public?  Answer:
               grandstanding politician.
               \_ Except he is no longer a member of congress.
            \_ she is National Security Advisor, i wouldn't want
                her to divulge anything that might help the terrorist
                alter their plans.
                \_ but if it helps get Kerry elected..let the terrorist win
                \_ I agree with you, but I don't see how this precludes her
                   testifying publicly.  She's free to say, "I'm sorry, that
                   would violate National Security" if it comes up.
                   \_ no, that's exactly why it's a priviledge for NSAs
                   to not testify publically.
2004/3/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12896 Activity:very high
3/27    Clarke caught in yet another lie
        \_ aka http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1106748/posts
        \_ That's it, he is a Republican who voted for Gore? Is that
           the best you guys can do??? What "other lie" have you caught
           him in. The stench of Republican desperation is becoming pronounced.
                \_ Compare his interview from 2001 and his testimony
                   before the 9/11 commission.
           \_ The Post article:
              says that Clarke claimed under oath that he voted Rep. in 200.
              The MSNBC article:
              quotes him as saying he voted for Gore.  He's lying in one of
              those, obviously.
        \_ I'm not even sure why we bother to point out this guy is lying
           anymore it's so obvious.  I don't know if he's being paid by
           Democrats or has some personal vendetta against Bush, but he'll be
           coming up on perjury charges real quick here I expect.
           \_ I didn't realize Scott McClellan had a csua account.
        \_ Dude. He registered Republican. He voted for McCain, a Republican.
           Gore was not listed as a choice on Republican primary ticket. For
           the Presidential election he voted for Gore. Both elections
        \_ I'm not even sure why we bother to point out this guy is lying anymore
           it's so obvious.  I don't know if he's being paid by Democrates or has
           some personal vendetta against Bush, but he'll be coming up on perjury
           charges real quick here I expect.
           happened in 2000. Is it really that hard for you guys to think ?
           \_ Please don't bring facts into the discussion!
2004/3/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12882 Activity:nil
3/26    Stranger than freerepublic being down, the Sept. 11 commission website
        can't figure out its ass from its ... ass.  The published url was
        http://www.911-commission.gov  I checked a few days ago.  There was a CNAME
        pointing to 911-commission.gov.  911-commission.gov had an MX line but
        no A record.  I check again yesterday.  911-commission.gov is _gone_.
        In its place is 911commission.gov (note the missing hyphen).  They
        finally have an A record, but all links on the site point to absolute
        URLs at 911-commission.gov.  Haven't checked it yet today. --scotsman
        \_ It's obviously a BushCo conspiracy to hide the truth!  Not about
           Iraq or WMD or anything, but you know... the *real* truth!
2004/3/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:12834 Activity:nil
3/24    Clarke told reporters different story in 2002 background briefing
        \_ Okay, now try a news source that isn't rabidly right-wing.
           \_ Cnn is rabidly right-wing.. umm whatever Lenin.
              \_ Sorry my sarcasm was too subtle for you.
                 \_ Apology Accepted.
2004/3/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12801 Activity:kinda low
3/22    All posts critical of the President will be deleted immediately.
        Criticism of our Commander In Chief or the Republican party
        during wartime will no longer be tolerated. -DHS
        \_ so when will the war be over, so that we can resume criticizing
           our CinC?
           \_ Chimp in Charge?
              \_ W00t!!!
           \_ The struggle to preserve freedom will NEVER end!
           \_ War is Peace!  Freedom is Slavery!
        \_ lefty troll.
           \_ You're right. It's not that criticisms of Bush won't be
              tolerated. It's just that you will be deemed anti-American,
              an America hater, pro-terrorist, or a commie.
              \_ Come on, is there an insult more anachronistic than "commie?"
                 You can't even use it ironically, its so tired.  The RPG
                 Paranoia made a joke out of it in 1985.  That was almost 20
                 _years_ ago.
            \_ Why is it a troll? Everytime I put up a post critical of Bush
               or any Republican policies, it is immediately deleted. I
               am just stating the facts.
                \_ facts fuck my ass..
                \_ facts my ass..
2004/3/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12781 Activity:nil
3/19    The assassination stunt Taiwan's president Chen pulled is kind
        of like the President of the United States using his presidential
        powers to stage an assassination attempt by Al Queda in a last
        minute bid to win the election.
        \_ Tinfoil hat time.  What evidence is there that he had himself and
           his VP shot?  It's ridiculous.
           \_ what about this claim that years ago he falseley accused
              political rivals of poisoning him on TV right before another
              election?  Is there any basis in fact there?  I'm not trying to
              troll here, I'm just new to following Taiwan politics.
           \_ it's totally like something he would do.  he does anything
              and everything to win elections.
2004/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12755 Activity:high
3/19    Journalistic fraud that makes Jason Blair look honest.
        \_ He's a conservative, so it doesn't matter. It is only when
           the liberal media fakes stories that it is big news.
           \_ WTF?  String this guy up.  And any reporter who makes things up.
              You're an idiot if you think people en masse ignore fabrications
              because of ideology. - a conservative
              \_ Let's see if this becomes a big story, like the Jason
                 Blair thing. I predict that it will not.
                 \_ Um, I know it will not.  However, that's because a) it was
                    the NY F'ing Times, considered the standard for
                    journalistic accuracy, and b) it was the first big story
                    about journalistic fraud--first is always biggest.
           \_ reporters lie all the time, to promote their career, ego, etc.
              Journalists are scumbags just like lawyers.
        \_ Is he Jewish? http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-19-jerusalem_x.htm
           \_ What difference does it make?
              \_ Well it might affect what he was thinking, like was he just
                 cynically latching onto any sensationalism or did he have
                 some other motivations.
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12713 Activity:nil
3/17    http://csua.org/u/6gv
        Government officials insist that they never misled the public, and
        that they released in a timely manner all the information and
        evidence they had gathered. "We told the truth at all times to the
        Spanish people," Acebes said on Monday.  In retrospect, however,
        there were signs that the government was at least selective in
        releasing information about possible culprits. -Washington Post
        \_   http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo
        \_ Consider, though, that there's never been a significant incident
           involving islamists in Spain, they have a long history of ETA
           bombings, and the March 11 attacks bore a lot of ETA hallmarks.)
           Had ETA been responsible, the PP's stance both on domestic
           security and its Iraq policy would have been boosted, whereas
           an attack by islamists would have underlined points made by the
           socialists--it's imaginable that this may have influenced the
           finger pointing, but it doesn't change what seemed pretty obvious
           at first glance.  As for whether the socialists' victory is
           "knuckling under" to terrorists, that's another discussion.  -John
           \_ I think you are being too generous here, John. The morning of
              the attacks, I heard someone from ETA's Sinn Fein say that
              they didn't do it -- he pointed out that ETA always provides
              a warning before they set off a bomb, and there was none
              in this case. And all the terrorism experts I heard said that
              it may have been ETA, but the MO was quite different from
              their past. Plus, the PP persisted in insisting that it was
              ETA for several days, despite mounting evidence to the
                \_ Point taken.  Interesting you use the Sinn Fein analogy--
                   like the IRA, Sinn Fein is pretty fragmented since Spain
                   & France started working together to smash them.  -John
              \_ ETA MO is to set off a bomb and then see what the PR looks
                 like and disclaim responsibility if the PR is negative.  The
                 ETA was stopped from setting off a train bomb just like this
                 last year and last month was busted carting around a large
                 amount of explosives.  It was also reported that the
                 explosives used in Madrid are the same ETA has used a lot in
                 the past.  So fingering the ETA was a good call at the time.
                 Oh yeah, the ETA is also reported to have a new group of
                 younger members moving into higher ranks that are much more
                 aggressive than the original bunch.  It made sense and was
                 believable.  Obviously finding al qaeda tapes, AQ agents and
                 then a posting on an AQ web site last year saying that they
                 could put the socialists in power if they timed it right is
                 good evidence it wasn't the ETA but none of that was known
                 that first day or so.
                 \_ It was the omission of including AQ as suspects that ticked
                    everyone off. There wasn't enough information at the time
                    to make the call and laying blame the ETA without proof
                    made it look politically expedient.
                    \_ ETA was a good first guess.  It was only 48 hours
                       between the bombs and the polls opening.  I think your
                       depiction is really harsh.
                       \_ You should really read the entire article.
                          Then come back and post what you think. -op
        \_ Spain gave in to threats and voted to "appease terrorists" in the
           election Sunday that turned out a top U.S. ally in the
           counterterror war, the top Republican in Congress said Wednesday.
           ... "Here's a country who stood against terrorism and had a huge
           terrorist act within their country and they chose to change their
           government and to in a sense appease terrorists," Hastert said. -AP
           \_ And if the US had gotten more than Spain, Poland, and the UK to
              help police Iraq, the loss would be less apparent.
2004/3/16 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12695 Activity:high
3/16    I posted this last week, but it received no serious responses.
        Does anyone have any experience/advice with using air couriers
        for international travel? Is it a reliable thing to use? Thanks.
        \_ what do you mean by using "air couriers"?  back when I was
           at cal, several of my friends travel "courier" which means
           that they can't bring any check-in lugguage.  the space
           was sold to a courier service instead.  I believe my friends
           don't need to touch whatever luggage that is being
           couriered at all and are not responsible for what is being
           couriered.  The courier company already arranged things
           with the airline directly.  It was many years before 911,
           even though I don't see why 911 must impact this.
                \_ Yes, this is the service I was talking about. Did
                   they share any advice/thoughts on travelling like
                   that? -op
                   \_ they seem pretty satisfied, mainly with the
                      price.  Instead of around $900, they paid
                      like $500.
         \_ Here are your eyes.
2004/3/15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12677 Activity:nil
3/15    Your morning dose of inanity as brought to you by the Mouthpiece:
        "Terrorists are indiscriminate (as to) who they attack. They want to
         spread fear and chaos," McClellan said."
        \_ heh, so terrorists really want to spread joy and happiness to
           specific targets?
           \_ "I do not like to be beaten about the head and shoulders."
              "You would prefer being beaten on the feet and knees?"
              Your syllogistic logic has no affect on the inanity of the
              \_ You think that quote is stupid?  Check out the right-wing
                 editorializing (all over the place, obUseGoogle) that the
                 victory of Spain's opposition party is a victory for the
                 terrorists.  Even tho, ya know, the ruling party was the one
                 that backed Bush against 90% of the public and then tried to
                 blame the terrorist attack on ETA without any evidence.
                 Democracy is only good when they agree with us.
                 \_ Hmm, PP is way ahead in polls.  Bombs go off.  PP loses.
                    Yep!  It's a loss for the terrorists!
2004/3/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12669 Activity:nil
3/15    Spain to leave Iraq, because of new government voted in as a result
        of the terrorist bombings.
        Another Victory for the Terrorists, and an example of why they will
        crush the wimpy western democracies?  Discuss...
        \_ Turnging and turning in the widening gyre...
        \_ Sorry guys, the talking points this time are just stupid.  The
           Popular Party was not "way ahead in the polls."  They were within
           the margin of error.  The bombings, and the sloppy attempt to blame
           them on ETA, just pushed it over the edge.  The War in Iraq killed
           the PP and you guys know it.  Also, the "Socialist" party in Spain
           is no more socialist than the ruling parties in, say, Germany.
           \_ It sounded to me like:
              "It must have been the ETA"
              "Because they're terrorists."
              "But what about al Quaeda?"
              "It must have been the ETA"
              \_ You forgot the part where they took a kernel of truth and
                 lied from there.  "It must have been the ETA because they
                 had been planning an attack to coincide with the elections,"
                 which is true, but the bombings didin't fit with ETA's
                 modus operandi, and everyone knew it.
                 \_ It wasn't about difficult MO.  It was about the government
                    delaying the release of information.
2004/2/23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12355 Activity:nil
2/22    So my carb sync measure (something that measures the
        carburator suction) broke and mercury spilled on the garage (about 50
        mL worth) and on my hands. I called 911 and asked if I should
        be concerned and they sent 3 guys from the fire
        department over in about 10 min. They looked at it, said it was no
        big deal, and to just dump the stuff int the trash can. I
        asked if I should put them back in the bottle and have them properly
        disposed and they said it's no big deal. He even said when he was
        a kid he used to touch them and play with them. Is there something
        wrong with this picture?
        \_ It is not a problem unless you drink it.  Highly insoluble.
        \_ In HS, a kid broke one and supposedly it cost the school $95 to
           get some company to dispose it. It doesn't add up to $15 B in
           excess, but it's there. (I'm waiting for the response about the
           costs of preventative maintenance)
2018/12/17 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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