Politics Domestic 911 - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2004/2/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12342 Activity:nil
2/21    Bin Laden surrounded and near capture?  "The timing of that order will
        ultimately depend on President Bush [...] Capturing bin Laden will
        certainly be a huge help for him as he gets ready for this election".
        \_ "The Sunday Express, known for its sometimes colourful scoops..."
           Nuff said.  Oh what the hell:
           "The article says bin Laden's movements are monitored by a National
           Security Agency satellite."
           Can you imagine the outcry if Bush waited to get OBL for political
           gain?  Then again, the dems will accuse him of it anyway...
        \_ bah!  bin laden was captured by Kurds a month ago, turned over
           to the Americans in secret, and is being held until closer to
           the election for some Jessica Lynch style theatrics. Just you
           wait and see.
           \_ those kurds sure do get around!
                \_ well they DO live there!
                   \_ uhm, no. the kurds do not live on the border of pakistan
                      and afghanistan. maybe a few visited using a good deal
                      from http://priceline.com or something but not as a people.
                   \_ are you, by any chance, related to our president?
        \_ Hmm: "The Sunday Express, known for its sometimes colourful
           scoops..."  Could be, but many of the British papers are total
           \_ It's being reported elsewhere as ell.
           \_ Very similar to the NYT quality reporting the last decade or two.
              \_ Whatever, freeper.
2004/2/18 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12298 Activity:nil
2/18    Profiling is useless against modern terrorists:
        \_ The biometric scan now being done is really for creating a vast
           database of finger prints and photos.  It's good for -- use your
           imagination.  (Hint, the technology of faking fingerprints and
           faces is quite mature.)
2004/2/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12207 Activity:nil
2/11    Excellent and disturbing report on the 9/11 commission's investigation
        and some unanswered questions:
2004/2/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12162 Activity:nil
2/7       Prediction: If the administration produces Osama bin Laden, dead
           or alive, before the election, it's all Bush.  Otherwise, it's
           virtually a coin-toss, no matter who the Dems put up against him.
          \_ Bullshit.  You're overestimating the attention span of the
             American public.  It's *still* the economy, stupid.  Right now
             that puts Bush in a very close tie with Random Democrat.  If
             the economy really takes off, Bush'll be unbeatable, and if it
             really starts to go down, he's dead.  Otherwise, it'll be
             close, barring another major terririst attack.  Joe Sixpack
             has already forgotten who Bin Laden is.
             \_ bullshit?  you just agreed with OP for the most part.  --!op
             \_ Yeah, the Dems are betting on the short American attention
                \_ Er...  both sides take it as a given... because it,
                   unfortunately, is.
          \_ Or if Dubya's administration finds the WMD.
          \_ I give the Dem's one chance in four. -Berkeley Liberal.
             \_ It's Bush's to lose with Kerry as the guy and his only reason
                people/dems are voting for him is they think he can beat Bush
                not that they like him.  That's not really inspiring.
          \_ Heh.  Did you see Bush's inept performance on Meet The Press?
             He's toast.  When even the National Review Online guys are calling
             him on his blather, he's in trouble.
             \_ The average voter isn't watching MtP, reading NRO, or a lot of
                other things you'd hope for.
             \_ Or at least he would be if the Dems could put up anyone
                who wasn't so increadibly LAME.  In 2000 Bush could not have
                beaten anyone.... except Gore, King Stupid himself.  Bush
                even keeps alienating his own voters.  It's pathetic.
                \_ It wasn't just Bush who beat Gore in 2000.  It was the
                   Bush/Nader dynamic duo.
                   \_ Go Ralphie go!!!!!!  Nader 2004!  There is only one
                      liberal ego big enough to keep a republican in
                      \_ Ralph isn't liberal.  Ralph is for the people which
                         Gore sure as hell isn't.
                      \_ Nader just illustrated what a buffoon Gore was.
                   \_ Gore couldn't even take his own 'home' state.  That is
                      hardly Nader's fault.
                \_ Kerry's not as lame as Gore was, but he shares a lot of the
                   attitude and personality problems. Their anti-Bush hype
                   machine only works against people who already hate Bush.
                   I'm a liberal and Kerry is not a likable person to me.
                   I've gotten used to Bush enough that I don't really care
                   anymore whether someone like Kerry beats him or not.
                   \_ Kerry is going to lose for the same reason Bob Dole lost
                      in 96.  They said it was "Dole's turn".  That's no reason
                      to put a guy up for office.  They now say "Kerry has the
                      best chance to beat Bush" which is also a lame reason to
                      put him up.  The independent voters who make and break
                      candidates don't share the "anything but Bush" feeling
                      so if the only thing Kerry has going for him is the
                      "he's not Bush and can beat him" thing, then well, he
                      can't.  Kerry also has an inconsistent 35 year Senate
                      record to pick apart.  This is going to be uuuuugly.
2004/2/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:29782 Activity:very high 50%like:29780
2/4     Conservatives -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ a. keeping my money
           b. making more money
           \_ you are making conservatives sound very selfish
              \_ of course he is.  he isn't a conservative.  he's trolling.
        \_ 1. Making sure my money is spent how I want it to be spent.
           2. Reducing government services/intervention/size to those the
              government does best (e.g. defense)
           \_ I disagree with #1.  Tax money should be spent wisely and for
              what helps the nation, not on a new pool in your backyard.  Or
              better yet, my backyard.  --conservative
              \_ Maybe I feel strongly that a new pool helps the nation. I
                 think deciding what "helps the nation" is at the core of
                 this question and liberals have a different idea than
                 conservatives do. I don't think a lot of "helpful
                 government programs" help the nation.
                 \_ your feelings have nothing to do with it.  you won't be
                    able to demonstrate a new pool helps anyone but you.  I
                    agree that various social programs only destroy those
                    they are intended to help.
                    \_ How about the Interstate system? Are you opposed
                       to that, too?
                       \_ Built during the Commie Liberal Roosevelt
                          New Dealism era.
                       \_ The IState system improves commerce efficiency, so
                          no.  The welfare system destroys lives, so yes.
                          Various tax credits and penalties are used to
                          conduct government directed social engineering which
                          IMO is the biggest crime possible in this context.
                 \_ a new pool will increase overall GDP (by increasing
                    consumption, and the pool maker will also consume and
                    so on.. sort of like the multiplier effect.)  Thus, a
                    new pool might be helpful to society.
                    \_ no, because the final product has no value to society.
                       if the pool was purchased with his own money then what
                       you say would be true.  but when purchased with tax
                       dollars which otherwise would have had that multiplier
                       effect in the economy, they are first filtered through
                       the government waste system and what little is left is
                       then multiplied.
                       \_ So you are saying it's better to build a pool
                          than to give the money to the wasteful
                          government in the form of taxes. Exactly. If I
                          pay some laborers $20K to build my pool I think
                          I've done more for them than any government
                          program would have.
        \_ 1. Promote traditional family values.  Protect the family.
           2. Protection of Life and Liberty (from conception to natural
              death) and the pursuit of happiness.
           \_ Isn't racism a traditional family value?
              \_ hint: I'm not white, or a WASP.
              \_ yes, it is, in white, black, hispanic, asian, and just about
                 all other cultures.  would you prefer breaking up all
                 families because sometimes they do bad and stupid things?
                 \_ No. But I'm pointing out what a vague and meaningless term
                    "family values" is in politics. What, specifically, do you
                    expect politicians to do about family values? They like to
                    talk about it in elections but it sidesteps any debate over
                    actual policies. In short, it's a load of bullshit. And
                    historically speaking, liberals were the ones fighting for
                    the rights of women and minorities. Maybe nowadays, family
                    values is a euphemism for anti-gay, xtian fundamentalism.
                    \_ killing people (born and unborn) is bad.
                       What about those rights?  And affirmative action
                       is not the only way to help minorities.
        \_ 1.  Only allow the traditional sexual position.
           2.  Only adult can and must be killed.
           \_ Bad troll, no cookie.
        Liberals      -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ 1. Universal health care and education.
           \_ Provide a service with infinite costs like healthcare and you'll
              get everyone over-using it to the point that everyone gets near-
              zero care.  Education is a different story since the costs are
              limited and predictable with long term benefits for all of
           2. I'm very glad to see a good number of the candidates talk
           about fair trade and tax incentives to keep jobs here. If
           we're going to play in a "global" marketplace, all players
           must play fair. --scotsman
           \_ They're talking but once elected it'll be outsource as usual.
           \_ I'm being naive but I thought conservatives were free traders?
              \_ Did I say free?  Check your prescription. --scotsman
                 \_ what does fair mean exactly?  I'll raise my tariffs
                    to match yours?
                    \_ It means "I actually care about how you treat your
                       \_ how does this translate into policy?
        \_ Getting Bush out of office.
           \_ is this an "issue"?
              \_ only if you're an extremist leftist motd wacko.  the rest of
                 country is more concerned with jobs, healthcare, and defense
                 \_ I bet 1/3 of the Democratic party would disagree with
                    you. You might think that 10% of the country is extremist
                    left whackos, but you are starting to stretch the
                    definition a bit there. Many of them are more partisan
                    than leftist, anyway.
                    \_ you are right.  kind of like how all the
                       republicans want clinton out no matter what.
                       \_ "all" and "no matter what" are incorrect.
        \_ 1. Making sure the most helpless in society, especially
              children, are adequately taken care of.
              \_ isn't that what *PARENTS* are for?  who else?
                 \_ Parents have the first responsibility, but in many
                   -- ilyas
                    cases they fail to do their job. What then?
                    \_ Take the kids away and sterilise the parents.  There
                       are a lot of people who can't have kids and would take
                       much better care of them.  It Takes A Village, remember?
           2. Keeping the rights of the minority safe from being
              trampled on by the majority.
              \_ including free speech rights for those who disagree with
                 you, right?
                 \_ In my case, absolutely. I am an ACLU member.
                    \_ mmmmm, yeeaah... I like the concept of the ACLU and
                       what they claim to stand for but they don't always,
                       but overall I'm glad they're there than not at all.
                    \_ I was an ACLU member once.  Then they sold my name
                       to a bunch of mailing lists.
        \_ 1. Protection of civil liberties
           \_ Where were the Democrats during the Civil Rights movement, huh?
              Blocking Highschool doorways so black kids couldn't enter.
              \_ Didn't Johnson sign the Civil Right's Bill and send
                 federal troops to Alabama to desegregate the schools?
           2. Socialized Medicine
           \_ what is the conservative way of dealing with Medicine?
                - not a liberal
              \_ not going EU/Canadian style and destroying the system.
              \_ Let the free market handle it.
                  \_ how would the free market handle it?  What about those
                     who can't afford it?
                     \_ I believe there should be a minimal level of health
                        care provided to all citizens such as shots for kids,
                        and 911 emergency care but I don't think we should all
                        be paying for some of the things I've seen such as the
                        $250,000 spent so far just in medical costs to keep a
                        friend's near-brain dead child alive for the last 10
                        years.  And then there's the $150,000 or so spent on
                        other care.  The child is non-functional, unable to
                        speak at all, can almost crawl and doesn't recognise
                        her own mother from a hole in the ground.  None of this
                        ever should have been allowed to happen.  She should
                        have been allowed to die at birth and would have with-
                        out *amazing* amounts of top notch western medical
                        care.  How many kids could be helped with that $400k
                        who can actually *use* the help?
        \_ 1. Equal rights under the law, civil liberties.
           \_ Where were the Democrats when the Civil Rights Movement was
              taking the nation?  Blocking black kids from entering white
              high schools.
           2. Promoting the welfare of the masses and egalitarian society.
           \_ You mean taking money from one group and giving it to another
              who hasn't done anything to earn it.
        Moderates     -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ they care about nothing at all, that's what makes them moderates.
           \_ No, they just aren't fanatics. They don't have a pet agenda to
              push. So they listen to the yammering of both sides and want
              something in between.
              \_ They're mushy heads.  How can they have been awake for the
                 last however many years and still not have an opinion on so
                 many topics which will send this country down very different
                 paths in the years to come?  Mushy heads.
                 \_ They may like how things are or have views which don't
                    all neatly fall into one column or the other. Most things
                    end up being a compromise and therefore "moderate".
                    \_ The key concept of compromise is no one likes it.
                       I have no respect for people who prefer to compromise
                       all the time instead of making something happen.  Mushy
                       heads.  If they really believed in the status quo then
                       they should be opposing both sides.  They *do* have a
                       pet agenda if you're correct.  Since we don't see
                       your version of moderates raising their voices in
                       loud opposition to the extremes we must conclude they
                       really don't care and are just a bunch of Mushy Heads.

        Message from OP: I'm not trying to troll.  one of the reasons
        I have is to see whether the priorities of conservatives and
        liberals are very similar or very different.
        \_ Mr. OP, in my opinion the difference between conservatives and
           liberals isn't priorities (they are often the same), but
           that they view human rights differently.  The set of human
           rights for a liberal is different from the set of human rights
           for a conservative.  Hence the vehement opposition, etc.  Rights
           are pretty basic stuff.  -- ilyas
           \_ are there rights when it comes to economic issues?
              \_ Of course.  For instance, a liberal might think everyone
                 is entitled to healthcare.  In fact, he might think this
                 right trumps the property rights of others.  A conservative
                 thinks property rights are more important.  It is in the
                 specifics of what rights trump what other rights that the
                 whole disagreement is rooted.  In some sense, liberals and
                 conservatives want the same thing (unless they are evil,
                 or sleazy political scumbags) -- for people to be happy
                 productive and free.  But the devil's in the details.
                 I think the ordering of rights is not entirely subjective,
                 and there is one natural one that is 'right.'  But some
                 might say that's naive platonism.  -- ilyas
                 \_ we may have to make a distinction between the
                    hardliners of each side versus the more moderate
                    conservatives or liberals.
                    \_ Still, I think the difference is the ordering of
                       rights, and not something else.  -- ilyas
                       \_ This might be true for the difference between
                          big business conservatives and liberals, but
                          you have to read the bible to understand the
                          religious conservative types. They aren't really
                          interested in the concept of "rights" at all.
                          It is more a matter of salvation and saving souls
                          to them.
                          \_ Religious conservatives may not be interested
                             in the concept of rights, but their position
                             implicitly defines how they view rights.  For
                             instance, most religious conservatives have a
                             very restrictive view of rights when it comes
                             to homosexuality, same sex marriages/unions, etc.
                             Even if their philosophical position had been
                                \_ [ Hi, deleting other people's replies is
                                     not cool. ]
                                     \_ FU. I always use motdedit, unlike
                                        you apparently, who frequently
                                        overwrites my posts.
                             reached by reading the bible, and not thinking
                             about it a whole lot, it's still a position.
                             Some religious conservatives can give a
                             thoughtprovoking defense of their position, so
                             it's not easy to dismiss them.
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Are you agreeing me, or what? I am saying
                                the differences are a lot more complex than
                                just an "ordering of rights." Not everyone
                                agrees that being happy and free is the
                                goal of existence.
                                \_ Ordering rights is a lot more complex than
                                   you think.  In some sense, the whole of
                                   moral philosophy can be viewed as figuring
                                   out what human rights are, and how to
                                   order them.  I will go out on a limb here,
                                   and suggest than people who don't want
                                   others to be happy and free are bad people.
                                   I try not to talk to bad people.  -- ilyas
2004/2/3 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12082 Activity:nil
2/2     So, within an hour of Gallup poll results appearing on CNN indicating
        Kerry or Edwards would beat Bush in a head-to-head matchup,
        a Homeland Security official leaks info that initial tests indicate
        ricin is found in a Senate office building?
        \_ Terrorists are hiding under the bed!  Be afraid!
        \_ I thought it was an 'unidentified substance' as of 20 minutes ago.
           \_ Jesus Christ.  I find 'unidentified substances' in my apartment
              all the time, yet my apartment terror alert never climbs above
              a sort of tealish color.  Homeland Security is eventually going
              to get a lot more convincing, or else stage a terrorist attack
              themselves if they really want credibility.
              \_ Ok, they really said it was an 'unidentified white powdery
                 substance which was still being analysed in the lab' which I
                 figured was cocaine that some senator's boy dropped in the
                 hallway by mistake on his way to his master.
2004/2/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12080 Activity:nil
2/2     Someone mentioned how that Kurdish thing didn't get much attention.
        How about the 250+ muslims who got killed in Mecca yesterday? As
        usual they got trampled in a stampede.
        \_ The 'Kurdish thing' is on CNN as a major headline.  What more do you
           want, a guy going door-to-door?  The incident in Mecca hasn't gotten
           nearly enough press though -- gotta agree with you there.
           \_ I just went to their web page and don't see it. I get a big pic
              of Sharon's face. I do see the Mecca story at the bottom.
              \_ Huh?  It's still there.  "Death toll climbs in Iraq suicide
                 \_ Not so obvious for your average American.  I bet a whole
                    bunch didn't even notice over the Super Bowl festivities.
        \_ Yeah, but see, the U.S. has a track record for abandoning the
           Kurds, and it seems we haven't gotten out of the habit yet
           \_ Except for the fact that this is major news in all the newspapers
              CNN and other cable TV and on the nets.  No cookie.
              \_ uh, no.  Please see ~mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v for deleted
                 thread on this.
2004/1/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12027 Activity:very high
1/29    Interesting.  A spring offensive planned in Afghanistan near the
        Pakistani border, where Bin Laden is thought to be holed up.  Nearly
        two years after the fact, and very close to the election.
          \_ You want wag the dog?  Try an aspirin factory in the Sudan and
             2 cruise missiles into a camel's ass which did nothing but let
             bin Laden know we can listen to his phone calls.  Brilliant!
        \_ You want wag the dog?  Try an aspirin factory in the Sudan and
           2 cruise missiles into a camel's ass which did nothing but let
           bin Laden know we can listen to his phone calls.  Brilliant!
        \_ motivations aside, don't you want to catch Osama?
           \_ Definitely want to see him caught, but the timing is so...
              \_ what if they found out more information just recently?
                 \_ Could be.  I'm not inclined to believe much that this
                    Administration says, however.  They've already proven
                       \_ *laugh* nice troll attempt but we're long after that
                          one.  try again.  no cookie.
           \_ Definitely want to see him caught, but the timing is so...
              \_ what if they found out more information just recently?
                    they have little credibility.
                    \_ consider how they stolen the election at first place,
                       you would think people would of known better.
                       \_ *laugh* nice troll attempt but we're long after that
                          one.  try again.  no cookie.
              \_ you also don't want to fight during winter in Afghanistan
              \_ we invaded Iraq without "solid prove" of what exactly?  What
                 exactly is your missing point?
           \_ Once burned, twice shy.
        \_ Of course it couldn't be because they might have found where a
           bunch of al Qaeda training camps are.  Nope, nope, nope, let's
           assume evil first until proven otherwise and then just assume
           assume evil first until proven otherwise and then just assume
           evil anyway.
           \_ I agree with you.
           evil anyway.
           \_ I agree with you.
           \_ we invaded Iraq without solid prove.  And that is my point.
              Iraq poses no immediate threat, and it has drained resources
              away from the real issues.
              \_ we invaded Iraq without "solid prove" of what exactly?  What
                 exactly is your missing point?
           \_ Once burned, twice shy.
2004/1/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12015 Activity:nil
1/29    Is there any way to have DSL in BA without getting screwed by SBC?
        I'm paying $30 for a phone line I don't use but I keep it for DSL.
        \_ You can call them and get them to take off a bunch of 'features' you
           don't need, like long-distance access, and switch to no free local
           calls and I think you can get it down to ~8/mo.  BTW, that still
           will include 911 service, which is a good thing 'cause most cell
           phones don't have e911 service (and can't always get a signal either)
           \_ Speaking from (very bad) personal experience, NEVER call 911 on
              your cell phone.  You will be put on hold, and wait...and wait...
              and wait...until either you already got ripped off, murdered,
              etc., or you've given up in disgust and tried to find a payphone
              (good luck!). --lye
              \_ My understanding is that most cells go straight to the
                 Highway Patrol.  If there's a big accident on a busy freeway
                 in your calling area, then yeah -- cell 911 is pretty fucked
                 up.  I've called 911 on my cell 3 or 4 times, and I've only
                 had one really bad experience, which isn't an ideal
2004/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:11917 Activity:low
1/23    Bin Laden captured?
        \_ Wow, a completely unconfirmed rumor.  Of course, they might
        keep is secret if they captured him, for political reasons.
        Therefore, they MUST have captured him!
        \_ Can you see how this rumor formed?
           http://csua.org/u/5ow  link:csua.org/u/5ov
           \_ an aspect left out of those two articles is that people traded
              up the dollar on the rumor, which then went back down after it
              was declared a joke.
2004/1/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11886 Activity:moderate
1/22    Oh dear: http://csua.org/u/5ng (boston.com)
        GOP senators spy on democrats using computers.  was that so fucking
        \_ GOP senator STAFF spy on dems.  The staff who did it should be fired,
           and any senator who knew what was going on should be run out of
           \_ I'm sure there'll be a thorough investigation which will show that
              none of the senators knew anything about it and it was all rogue
              staffers who couldn't be identified anyway.
              \_ right...just like there's a thorough investigation into the
                 CIA mole leak.
                 \_ I hope you know I was being sarcastic...
        \_ Hrm... Bob Novak again... why am I not surprised?
        \_ Watergate?
           \_ Not a chance.  No one cares anymore.  If Nixon was in office
              today and did everything he was accused of and more nothing
              would come of it at all.
           \_ Its only a scandal if the Democrats do it.  In the Hall of King
              Bush, the Democrats are the Court Jester.  Or if you prefer
              Classical metaphors, they are the Christians to be thrown to the
              lions as entertainment for the masses.
        \_ anytime a newspaper says someting like:  "staff exploited a computer
           glitch that allowed them to access ... without a password." it means
           "Some dumbass left it a null password" or there was No glitch, there
           just was no authentication required.  As for the "if the Dems do it",
           If the Dems did it you would probably all be screeming about how the
           poor Dem staffers had their computer confiscated, just for browsing
           around an open system.
           \_ republican tech. geeks are smarter than dem. tech geeks:

              As the extent to which Democratic communications were
              monitored came into sharper focus, Republicans yesterday
              offered a new defense. They said that in the summer of
              2002, their computer technician informed his Democratic
              counterpart of the glitch, but Democrats did nothing to
              fix the problem
              \_ Read further, young troll: Other staffers have denied that
                 the Dems were alerted to the problem.
                 \_ I had already read further, and your tiny bite is not
                    left my trolling urges satisfied.  Damn you for your
                    interference in my troll. -not even a republican
2004/1/22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11884 Activity:nil
1/22    Oh dear:
        \_ asshole, if you shorten, say what the website is.
                \_ Sorry for posting a non-work-safe link.  It's porn, porn,
                   porn.  Now eat the peanuts out of my steaming shit and shut
                   your miserable festering cakehole, you inbred filthy
                   stinking son of a shit-reeking alley whore.  -John
2004/1/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:11763 Activity:nil
01/12   If profiling is shown to be very effective in finding terrorists,
        will you still oppose it?
        \_ profiling, approaching and interrogating is fine, but
           encampment or imprisonment is not
           \_ How do you propose there be an interrogation without some form
              of confinement?  Ask them to show up each day at 9am?
             \_ ie: asking questions. if they don't show up to the
                interview , they are suspects.
           \_ at least they get free health care
2004/1/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11710 Activity:very high
1/7   More rights removed:
      \_ Happy New Year!
      \_ Whiner.  What's wrong with this?  It just makes official what has
         always go on anyway.
         \_ Why do you hate America? Oh, yes, it says here in your file
            that you're a fifth column saboteur working for the terrorists.
            \_ I don't hate America.  What a stupid waste of bits.  Here's
               my genius quality counter punch: Why do you hate America? Oh,
               yes, it says here in your file that you're a fifth column
               saboteur working for the terrorists.  How cool is that?  I've
               just repeated what you said and it applies equally well!  That
               is to say, it doesn't apply at all to either of us.
               \_ So basically what you're saying is, its okay that our
                  privacy is being violated, since we're law abiding citizens,
                  what do we have to fear, etc. etc. etc.?  I thought the
                  motd was teeming with libertarians, not authoritarians.
                  \_ I never said any such thing.  I said they're already
                     doing it and have been for years.  This just makes it
                     official and publicly known.  You invented the rest of
                     that and put it in my mouth.  I'm neither libertarian
                     or authoritarian.  I'm pragmatic.
                     \_ They've been doing this for years, so its okay?
                        First of all, I don't see how that justifies it,
                        and second of all, how the hell do you know about
                        it?  I consider myself a reasonably informed
                        person and this is the first I've heard of the FBI
                        having carte blanche to investigate your every
                        financial move without any warrant or justification.
                        So either you've got a tinfoil hat on, and are
                        convinced the government is always out to get us,
                        or you're just pulling something out of your
                        ass to try to justify something inexcusable.
                        \_ The motd is really good at telling me what it
                           thinks I believe lately.  I suspect this is the
                           same person each time.  I'll explain again.  I
                           do not believe the anyone is out to get me or most
                           of the rest of us.  I do not own a tinfoil hat. I
                           do believe that the government has been able to
                           acquire almost any information it wants about
                           most of us for a very long time.  It is just a
                           case of "why bother?".  I'm not the tinfoil hat
                           guy here.  I don't think anyone would waste even
                           a moment of cpu time checking my financial
                           records (or yours either) because we're both
                           complete and total nobodies.  I've met real life
                           active duty federal agents.  The kind that shoot
                           people and then check the corpse for ID.  They're
                           not like us.  They don't care about us.  I'm not
                           at all concerned these people are prying into my
                           (or your) financial or any other records.  My
                           only concern is if they confuse me for someone
                           else on the street that that'll check the ID on
                           my corpse instead of asking for it at gun point.
                           These people have existed long before Bush was
                           even born so don't even go there.  You're totally
                           naive if you think all government evil started
                           when GWB was inaugurated.
                           \_ thinking that all the people on the motd with
                              similar opinions are the same person is a sign
                              of paranoia.  watch the motd for a couple hours
                              if you care.  there are lots of people from
                              all corners of the political spectrum here,
                              many of whom probably respond to your posts in
                              similar ways.  for instance, I have posted
                              nothing on today's motd other than this, but
                              agree with everything the guy arguing with
                              you has said so far, and also think you're
                              a paranoid idiot.
                           \_ You're right, this is not just a GWB thing.
                              Your comment about this not being new, and
                              that we shouldn't get bothered about it is
                              fallacious-- it is _new_ in that it is now
                              no longer covert, and we should be bothered
                              about it because this makes it so much easier
                              for the innocent (like you) to get mistakenly
                              dragged into the fray based solely on any
                              given FBI Agent's suspicion. I know FBI agents,
                              too, and I know that most are not bad.  There
                              are some, however, whose bad side I never want
                              to get on.  The potential for abuse is so great
                              that the power does not need to exist.
2003/12/23-24 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:11574 Activity:kinda low
12/23   Another fine Republican bigot:
        \_ $2 million more to fund terrorism, alright!
2003/12/23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:11568 Activity:nil
12/22   Is this for real?
        \_ why do you think they killed off the lone gunmen?
        \_ Who's to say the terrorists weren't x-files fans, and got
           the ideas from the TV show?
           \_ It would probably take more than five months to plan this.
           \_ This plot device has been used in a number of books and movies
              over the years, some with variations like chemical weapons on
              board.  How d'you think Jack Ryan became president?
              \_ It also has been mentioned as a threat in various official
                 documents over the years.  The poeple who compose intelligence
                 like this are geeks like us.  It's the morons who read
                 and interpret the intelligence who are the problem.
2003/12/18-20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11516 Activity:nil
12/18   Padilla to be given civil trial:
        \_ It might go to the Supreme Court.  That would be great, if it did.
           Even if they rule in Dubya's favor, the dissenting argument will
           surely have something like:  "When the U.S. government interned
           Americans of Japanese descent in the interest of 'national security'
           after the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, it was wrong then;
           and in this post-9/11 world ..."
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2003/12/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:11460 Activity:high
12/15   So I figure they'll time it this way: Saddam now to throw the early
        Dem primaries into shambles, Osama Bin Forgotten around July just in
        time to prep and edit capture footage for the Republican National
        Convention, and then probably some WMDs in October to put the final
        nail in the coffin.  Anyone want to lay bets?  Get them in soon, I'm
        moving to Germany.
        \_ America - love it or leave it. Glad you'll pick the latter
          \_ Maybe I'll move to one of those industrialized countries with
             single-payer health care and a murder rate that's not horrid.-!op
           \_ Maybe we will.  And maybe we'll finally wake up and make you
              bloodsuckers leave instead.
           \_ I bet you're one of those morons who parrots the phrase
                "real americans" to refer to yourself and the rest of your
                cross-burning sister-marrying illiterate family.  You are the
                sheep.  And when the liberals leave no one will protect you
                from us, your corporate masters.  So go, liberals!  I want
                to sell fat and plastic to fuckwits like this guy without
                having to settle lawsuits every five minutes.
2003/12/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:11441 Activity:very high
12/12   http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-12-02-our-view-usat_x.htm
        Doesn't it seem kind of strange to you that terrorist are
        allowed to buy guns in America.
        \_ I'm more struck by a college-educate American reading USA Today.
           \_ I am impressed by your educate. By the way, it is 2 cups to
              a pint, 2 pints to a quart, and 4 quarts to a gallon. A cup
              is 8 fluid ounces. A pound is 16 ounces, which has nothing
              to do with fluid ounces. How much longer before my Cal
              degree is worth the same as one from CSU?
2003/12/11 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:11408 Activity:moderate
12/10   Real terrorist go unreported in the press. I guess white people
        don't rate news coverage:
        \_ I LOVE GOVERNMENT. Politicians, faceless bureacrats and
           and big-government are my savior.  They should have been
           immolated like Waco.
        \_ Dude wasn't there some guy in Oakland with a bazooka?  i bet
           that didn't make big national news either.  Some Wack jobs in
           texas with some guns, a pipe bomb and some HCL don't constitute a
           credible terrorist threat, it just makes them Crazy Texans.  (let
           me tell you something else, they ain't the only ones).  It's not a
           conspiracy, the tri-lateral commission didn't tell the big news
           outlets not to run it.  It just isn't that big a deal.
           Now the fact that 14 cops when into a high school with guns drawn
           and drug sniffing dogs and start handcuffing kids and CAN'T find
           any drugs!, now that's surprising, that's news.  (from same site:
           I can see the headlines now:  "Local High School Doesn't Have any
           Drugs."  Local Stoner was said to remark
           "I tried to tell them, 'it's been bone dry for like days.  I've
           been trying to score and there's just no goods around for like
           all week'  but they just threw me to the ground and like acted
           like they were going to shoot me, it was a total bummer."
        \_ I LOVE GOVERNMENT. Politicians and big-government are my
           savior.  They should have been immolated like Waco.
2003/12/10 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11380 Activity:high 60%like:11346
12/9    Neocons pre-emptively kill six more future terrorists.
        Go Bush!
        \_ but the Precogs say that they'll grow up to be terrorists.
2003/12/8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:11349 Activity:nil
12/7    No Child Left Behind
2003/12/7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:29696 Activity:high
12/6    Those dead children deserved it!
        \_ so are the children died in Nuclear and Fire bombing in
           \_ Learn english, fucker
2003/12/7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11346 Activity:high 60%like:11380
12/7    Bush regime pre-emptively kills 9 future terrorists:
        \_ Yeah, he knew they were little kids while sleeping in the White
           house, mentally took control of the A-10s, mentally imagined the
           Mavericks taking them out. Oh pluz! Why don't you say the Clinton
           regime took out two Chinese "spies" in the Serbian campaign while
           you are at it?!
           \_ What happened to taking responsibility for your actions?
              I thought that was a Conservative virtue. I guess not a Neocon
              \_ Yeah but you think we shouldn't even be in Afghanistan.
2003/11/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:29665 Activity:very high
11/24   Patriot Act II surreptitiously passed via Congressional spending bill
        \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ and why wouldnt it be?
           \_ Oh, FOAD, you lousy troll.
2003/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11092 Activity:nil
11/15   Iraq's al Qaeda links:
        http://tinyurl.com/v2r5 (weeklystandard.com)
        \_ you may find this site useful:
           it's a news site roughly as objective and mainstream
           as the Weekly Standard.
        \_ of course there was a link.  it's called "enemies."
        \_ so why isn't this on CNN instead of just a conservative web site?
           also, "top secret" memos usually don't get leaked
           the author of the memo is also a dyed in the wool neocon
              So the memo is real but it is raw data and draws
              no conclusions.
              \_ "News reports that the Defense Department recently confirmed
                 new information with respect to contacts between al-Qaida
                 and Iraq in a letter to the Senate Intelligence Committee are
                 \_ But everyone knows that the DoD is full of Godless
                    Commuinists that just want to run down GWB, while
                    the Weekly Standard is an objective newspaper
                    that only prints The Truth and is Fair and Balanced.
2003/11/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Finance/Investment] UID:11009 Activity:high
11/10   American Consumerism: Let us honor the veterans during veteran's
        day.  let us celebrate by shopping for clothes!
        \_ Or better yet, shop for some American Gold Eagle gold coins
           from the US mint: http://www.goldinfo.net/gvs.html
        \_ Every other important day has been turned into a lame shopping
           event.  Why not VDay, too?
2003/11/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:11007 Activity:high
11/10   Sigh...If only those votes could have been recounted...
        \_ Does no one else see the irony of a site called "Move On" is carrying
           a speech from Gore whining about Election 2000?
           \_ This speech isn't about Election 2k.  Does no else see the
              irony of opinionated windbags on the motd that post about
              URLs without looking at them?
        \_ Sigh, if only Gore had pushed for a statewide recount instead of
           cherry picking heavily Democratic districts....  Had he pushed for
           that on day one instead of trying to be clever, there wouldn't have
           been any Constitutional questions to raise.
        \_ They were... and in every recount by the major media outlets
           Bush WON.  Sour grapes I suppose, but don't let the rule of law
           get in your way.
           \_ Except for all the ones where he didn't... I guess that can
              be true if you're very selective about how you define
              "major", huh? Did they discuss the last-minute
              disenfranchisement of 90,000 black voters in those nicely
              impartial major media reports? Don't let facts get in your way.
                \_ They could not identify one, not one.  If they
                   could you better believe it would plastered over the entire
                   front page of every newspaper.  Please, give me any name.
                   There was a commission that investigated this, they found
                   nothing.  And please, don't give unsubstantiated
                   demagoguery by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  The irony
                   here is that is all of these purported districts the
                   election was run Democrats.
                   \_ Cathy Jackson. Donnise DeSouze. Angenora Ramsey. That
                      enough? If you want more, read
                   \_ The report was very damning of the Republicans:
                   \_ The rolls are statewide, but nice try. Care to name
                      your sage commission or maybe make up more stuff?
                        \_ Read the report, did you even bother to read
                           it???  They give no accounts of individuals
                           who wanted to vote but were unable, NOT ONE.
                           Just anecdotal evidence blah blah blah.
                           Here's the worst they can say from the
                            "Potential voters confronted inexperienced
                            poll workers, antiquated machinery,
                            inaccessible polling locations, and other
                            barriers to being able to exercise their
                            right to vote."
                           \_ I read the entire report and I agree with the
                              CNN summary of it, not yours.
                                \_ Then please, give me the name of
                                   one of the 90,000.  Just one is all I ask.
                                   I'm not talking about someone who was
                                   too stupid to fill out the ballot
                                   properly, rather some one who was
                                   prevented from voting.
                                   \_ Keep begging you racist right wing
                                      fascist!  We won't give up one, not one
                                      victim for you to hunt down and destroy!
                                        \_ So since you cant produce one
                                           you resort to thinly veiled
                                           threats.  Ah yes, the Left.
                                           Nice display of reason and
                                           rational thought.
                                           Let me see if I understand
                                           your argument:  the Democrat
                                           constituency in these districts
                                           are too stupid to fill out
                                           votes properly.  Nefariously,
                                           the Democrat controlled
                                           canvasing boards in these
                                           districts purposely
                                           undercounted the said votes to
                                           hurt Gore.
                                           Is this your contention?
                                           Do you have a personal stake
                                           in this... were you one
                                           the said voters? I just don't
                                           \_ http://csua.org/u/4y7
                                              includes five. Are you really
                                              a leftist pretending
                                              to be a dumb right winger?
                                    \_ Even a casual google search turns up
                                       dozens. Johnny Jackson Jr, is one
                                       a retired cleric.
                                        \_ Did these three people try to vote?
                                           This is not disenfranchisement,
                                           it is a clerical mistake.  Even
                                           the article admits more whites
                                           were removed than blacks.  Sorry
                                           try again.  Somehow it seems
                                           you guys still came out ahead.
                                           Hundreds of felons cast votes
            \_ Not even close to true. A full recount of Florida would have
               given the state to Gore:
               But I guess the New York Times and Miami Herald don't
               qualify as "major" in your book, right?
                \_ LOL your article contradicts itself.  Somehow every
                   newspaper they list lied in its headline??  From the
                   "And why did the New York Times report:
                    "An Analysis of Florida Balloting Favors Bush""
                   Even the leftwing NYT disagrees with you.
                   \_ "Leftwing NYT"? You crack me up. Read the NYT
                      article. NYT is mildly left of center, at best.
                      Any publically traded corporation with billions
                      in revenue is never going to be left wing, but you are
                      such an extremist, you don't realize that. Thanks for
                      reminding me of the 2000 rip-off. I am going to go
                      donate another $500 to the Dean campaign.
2003/11/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10986 Activity:high
11/7    Pvt. Lynch upset about the filming and portrayal of her rescue.
        \_ this is controversial because??
         \_ Aren't you a little upset that the government fabricated
            a nice media story about a dangerous midnight special forces
            rescue while tacitly admitting that the situation was safe
            enough to have a CAMERAMAN there?
            \_ The camera was held by a special forces guy, not someone from
               the NYT.  Feel better now?  Or just less ignorant?
               \_ Obviously it was a special forces guy.  Why did he have it?
                  Was it to protect his squad, or just to get American hearts
                  pumping proud patriotic blood?  It reminded me of Wag the
                  Dog-- 8 macho americans storm a dangerous terrorist hospital
                  and rescue the pretty blonde princess from the axis of evil...
                  and we've got VIDEO!
                  \_ because they film a lot of stuff for both training and
                     how-can-we-improve purposes.  if you weren't so anti-
                     military you might understand how it works.
                     \_ Which is of course why we see so much footage of bombed
                        out schools and dead soldiers on the evening news.  I'm
                        not anti-military, I'm against the spin efforts the
                        government is pushing.  It's not fair to the american
                        public and the soldiers themselves to release footage of
                        a quasi-staged rescue but forbid releasing footage of
                        military failures.
           \_ if you have to ask...
              \_ you're useless
           \_ 1. She didn't fight until the bitter end.  Her gun was jammed.
              2. Contrary to US media, she was not mistreated after her
                 \_ interestingly, in today's chron they're reporting there
                    is evidence of sexual assault in her capture.  Article
                    Titled "POW Lynch was raped by Iraqi Captors, biography says"
                    \_ [Graphic detail censored to keep motd work-safe.]
                       \_ one of the few news worthy items got censored?  for
                          work safeness?  so its ok for your boss to see the
                          junk on the motd on your screen wasting company time
                          and resources but not if it refers to a soldier's
                          anal rape at the hands of her barbaric captors?
                    \_ They lied about WMD.  They lied about her going
                       down fighting.  They lied about circumstances of
                       her rescue.  Could they be lying about her having
                       been raped?
                 \_ not mistreated?  so get anally raped by one or more Iraqis
                    doesn't count as mistreatment?  there's a human rights
                    violation investigation going on since shortly after the
                    government fell.  The WP misreported.  Bush nor any other
                    admin figure said she went down fighting.
                    \_ Yea, some military doctors says some of her
                       wounds are unlikely to be caused by the Humvee crash.
                       She herself remembers nothing except that she was
                       treated well throughout her captivity.
                       \_ They're lying about her not being raped, too!
                          Those bastards!
2003/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10841 Activity:nil
10/29   New Republican policy on Iraq "just mow the whole place down"
2003/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:10611 Activity:high
10/11   Not that TV is a great source of news and facts, but it brought my
        attention to the following issue covered by a BBC special when I
        was in Hong Kong.

        Do any of you (Bush supporters, especially) realize that we
        have been kidnapping people (i.e. without proper extradite proceedings)
        from over 3 continents and locking them up in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba,
        without charging them with a crime, denying them access to lawyers,
        without providing any judicial oversight whatsoever, and trying
        them in a kangaroo court set up by a military commission?
                \_ Soon everyone will know the TRU7H tnx to MIT:
        \_ we don't really hear about this on mainstream news, but I can
           assure you that everyone in Europe does.

        What happened to the human rights that we've been talking about?
        \_ Yes, I'm perfectly aware and didn't need to watch HK BBC to find
           out like it's some BushCo Conspiracy to hide it from the American
           people.  As a "Bush supporter, specifically", my response is two
           fold: 1) so what?  2) get your facts straight, there haven't been
           any trials and there won't ever be.
                        --Evil BushCo Republican Conspirator
           \_ so what?  do you have a conscience?  Guantanomo Bay is a legal
              blackhole; 35+ have attempted suicide so far. We don't know what
              is going on in there. There may even be a torture chamber. Do
              you realize that the difference between terrorists and
              non-terrorists lies not in their beliefs, but in the methods
              with which they carry out their goals?  If we deny them their
              right to fair trial, if we end up torturing people who are
              innocent, then what is the difference between US and THEM?
              \_ What the US was *intended* to be and what it *is* and has
                 been since the 60's are very different places.  Why pretend?
                 If you want the America the FF promised us "if we could keep
                 it" then you should be deeply disappointed in what you've
                 had for 40 years or more.  G.Bay is just one more example of
                 the US involving itself in foreign affairs when we really
                 should have packed up our bags and left the rest of the world
                 to rot after WWII.  Actually, this reminds me of a PC game
                 from the early 90s called "Balance of Power".  After numerous
                 attempts to crush the Russians with aggresive foreign policy
                 which usually lead to my downfall or nuclear war, I racked up
                 an off the charts high score by pulling back all troops and
                 all foreign aid money from everywhere and doing nothing for
                 my 8 years in office.  I wonder if the writers did that
                 intentionally or that's really the way the world is....  And
                 yes I know the world isn't a video game, so don't bother.  It
                 was an aside.
                 \_ Embittered? No hope? Then take your nihilist punk ass out
                    back and blow your head off so the rest of us can get on
                    with trying to make the world a better place.
                    \_ I'm not at all embittered and certainly not a nihilist.
                       I'm a realist and I don't pretend that we still follow
                       the FF's ideals.  This country is nothing like they
                       intended and never will be again so long as idealists
                       such as yourself only choose the bits and pieces of what
                       they wanted while discarding all those annoying bits
                       you don't like.  It's an all or nothing deal and we've
                       already chosen nothing.  Go read the Federalist Papers
                       and see how your world view dramatically differs from
                       the FF's.  Punk ass?  Suicide?  Not even close.  Someone
                       like you actually making the world a better place? That
                       is even less likely than me suiciding to "clear the way"
                       for you to fuck things up even more with your selective
                       minimalist version of the FF's dream and your arrogant
                       and obnoxious "I'm holier than thou and making the world
                       a better place!" bullshit.  Tell me exactly what *you*
                       are personally doing to "make the world a better place"
                       and what you've accomplished so far besides sloganeering
                       and being a self righteous twit.  --E. BC. C.
                       \_ Sure.  Sign your csua user name, and I'll gladly
                          email you with my list of contributions.
                          \_ You should be proud of your great contribuations
                             to humanity.  Please share with us all.
                             \_ Ah, I see that we are both of us trolls.
                                \_ No, I'm not.  But since you are you can go
                                   away now.  Bye.
        \_ What happened to proper use of English?
           \_ aside from attacking my language skills, do you have
              anything valid to say?  or are you the type who thinks that
              anything Bush does is righteous?
              \_ Ok, how about some proof that we kidnapped anyone?
                 \_ Not only did we kidnap people, but rightfully so.  Fuck
                    the terrorists.  The ones in GB are lucky we didn't take
                    care of them the way the Russians do and start excuting
                    their family members.  --Evil BushCo Conspirator
              \_ what human rights have we been talking about? arguably,
                 some humans really should be treated like animals though.
                 but yeah, bush is a moron anyway.
        \_ Might makes Right.
           \_ That's always been true.
        \_ Virtually all of those people in the camp somehow ended up
           in US custody without legal extradite proceeding.  So, by
           UN convention, we are kidnapping them to Guantanamo Bay.  Not even
           American lawyers have access to them because GB is not considered
           a soverign territory of the USA.
           \_ Some body delete this thread before me Engrish become so bad.
              \_ Censoring is english guantanmo bay hong news is yes, lah!
           \_ Yes, we kidnapped them but not by UN anything.  The UN is a
              powerless and meaningless coffee chat parlor house and thank
              god because the last thing the freedom loving West needs is
              all those self appointed third world military dictators (who are
              a majority in the UN) getting any real power on the world stage.
        \_ there was a time I vividly remember when we blamed German citizens
           who turned a blind eye towards what was going on in the
           concentration camps.  It's interesting that most of our own
           citizens have turned a blind eye towards what is going on within
           our own government while critizing other citizens for doing the
           same thing.
           \_ I didn't realise anyone here was old enough to remember the
              1930s, much less remember them vividly.  Seriously, I find your
              comparison to Nazi Germany highly offensive.  Rounding up a few
              hundred foreign terrorists with criminal backgrounds is not in
              any way comparable to the mass displacement, loss of property,
              and finally mass murder of 6+ million Jews, plus countless
              Gypsies and an unknown number of other German "undesirables".
              Shame on you.
              \_ Do you deny we have turned a blind eye to G.Bay, though?
                 We have absolutely NO IDEA what is happening there.  We
                 don't know WHO is there.  They have no legal recourse.
                 The comparison to Nazi Germany, while highly charged, has
                 a valid premise which you ignored.
                 \_ No, it doesn't and I didn't ignore it.  It's sickening and
                    wrong as I said.  But since you're so dense and have
                    apparently never seen the bodies or the 'survivors' of the
                    camps once the Allies showed up, I'll explain it to you:
                    In the Nazi camps, they took their own citizens by the
                    millions and those of 'undesirable' racial and other status
                    from surrounding conquered nations, took everything they
                    owned, put them in cattle cars where many died on their
                    way to the camps, shot a bunch of arrival until they
                    decided bullets were too good for them and 6 million
                    bullets would be very expensive so they gassed them to
                    death and tossed the bodies in ovens because burial is
                    time and space consuming and hey they were only jews and
                    other trash so who cares anyway.  The 'survivors' such as
                    they were underwent horrendous medical 'experiments' akin
                    to what a cruel 5 year old does to captured butterflies,
                    except these were real people.  Someone's mother, father,
                    someone's sister or brother, a son or daughter.  They were
                    all someone' neighbor.  Those who weren't cut open, burned,
                    frozen, poisoned, or murdered in some other way were left
                    staving down to skeletons.  Most were so close to death
                    from starvation when the Allies showed they couldn't stand.
                    I have no sympathy for foreign criminal terrorists getting
                    rounded up and shot.  I certainly have none for foreign
                    criminal terrorists who get rounded up and sent to summer
                    camp where they get coddled, are allowed to pray three
                    times a day, get tax payer funded Muslim holy men to visit
                    them, lead them in prayers, and oh yeah, betray this
                    country along the way.  Your comparison is sickening and
                    I categorically deny there is any similarity whatosever
                    between the two cases.  Shame on you twice for your
                    ignorance and your returning to insist on spreading your
                    ignorance a second time.
                    \_ Imagine just how much of all of this could have been
                       avoided if the people had stood up and denounced the
                       Nazi concentration camps.  No, Camp X-ray is not a
                       a genocidal concentration camp.  It is, however, a
                       denigration of human rights, and as such forms the
                       top of a slippery moral slope that could one day lead
                       to wholesale incarceration of a people simply because
                       of their race/creed.  We have an opportunity to nip
                       this in the bud before it becomes more of an atrocity,
                       and we should do so.
                       \_ With rights comes responsibilities.  People who go
                          around blowing shit up have yielded those rights.
                          I see no slippery slope.  Any people or culture or
                          nation that won't defend itself from enemies without
                          or enemies within is doomed.  By sitting on our
                          hands crying about the human rights of terrorists we
                          are committing suicide as a people.
                          \_ Agreed!  But _alleged_ terrorists should have
                             the same rights to defend themselves against
                             the charges as any other accused criminal.
                             Prove that our system works by convicting the
                             terrorists in our criminal courts, or admit
                             that the system is flawed, reform it, and THEN
                             try them.  Military tribunals and an opaque
                             basis for incarceration will not convince
                             anyone that we are right.
                             \_ Would you give someone a nice friendly public
                                trial if it meant the prosecution would have to
                                give up sources, witnesses, intelligence,
                                methods and other info that would allow your
                                enemy to keep you from successfully
                                infiltrating their groups and preventing
                                future attacks?  I wouldn't.  These aren't
                                standard civil criminal cases.  We're at war.
                                The enemy is well funded, dispersed, lives
                                among us and our allies, hates us for what
                                we are and is willing to send their children
                                to die in the name of their god in an effort
                                to destroy us and convert the world to their
                                religion.  I'll take a pass on the FBI style
                                civilian criminal justice trial, thanks.
                                \_ When the FBI busts a mafia figure, do
                                   they have to give up everyone of their
                                   sources to the public?  I think not.
                                   You're too quick to embrace breaching
                                   the Bill of Rights in an attempt to
                                   catch the baddies without looking at
                                   the less-civil-rights-infringing
                                   alternatives that already exist.
                                   \_ Actually, yes, that's what the witness
                                      protection program is all about.
                                      \_ Ridiculous.  This is not all of
                                         their sources.  A good deal remains
                                \_ This is the kind of attitude that leads
                                   to excess. Is there anything you would
                                   not support in your endless, unwinnable
                                   "war" against an invisible enemy that
                                   lurks amongst us?
                                   \_ People use this 'Orwell argument' a lot.
                                      The trouble is, in Orwell's world, the
                                      invisible enemy was made up.  In our
                                      case the invisible enemy is real.
                                      Do you honestly believe all the happy
                                      terrorist cells are made up by the
                                      government so they can take your
                                      liberties away?  Yes it sucks, but this
                                      is the price of being successful, people
                                      will always be gunning after you and your
                                      way of life.
          \_ btw, you should use the word "hypocrisy" here. -MOTD GRAMMAR GOD
2003/10/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10599 Activity:nil
10/11   Dick Cheney Was Right
        \_ I can smell the troll from here!
           \_ doesn't fit your world view so it must be a troll.  typical.
              we know that when you've got nothing to say you always resort
              to the thoughtless "it's a troll!" response.  why bother even
              posting anymore?  we already know you've got no response and
              nothing to add.  RTFA and you'll see real facts.  Hurts, huh? !op
        \_ "We don't know," said Cheney today.
           On March 16, just before the war started, Vice President Cheney
           said, "We know that [Saddam Hussein] has a long-standing
           relationship with various terrorist groups, including the Al
           Qaeda organization."
           To bad he didn't tell the truth back in March, eh?
                \_ Did you read the article?  It addresses your concern.
                   They were two different questions.  The question in the
                   article was about Sept. 11.  What was the question
                   for your quote.  You're being intellectually dishonest.
                                    \_ tjb?  what are you doing here?!?
                                       \_ standard motd leftist: if you can't
                                          dispute the facts, insult the speaker
                                          \_ Typical motd child: Doesn't know
                                             jack doodly about the poster, so
                                             he must be on the Other team
                                             (since ALL politics can be
                                             trivially divided into two teams).
                                             \_ Good try.  Take another shot?
                                                \_ Do you even know who tjb
                                                   \_ yup.  and?
                                                      \_ You're way too serious
                                                         or take yourself way
                                                         too seriously.
                                                         Lighten up, chum.
                                          \_ leftists like Bill O'Reilly?
                                             \_ BO'R is an entertainer, not a
                                                politcal figure.
                                          \_ Standard motd rightist: post
                                             uninteresting opinion peice
                                             from right wing magazine, then
                                             claim that it is indisputable
                                             "facts," and get all huffy and
                                             pious when people insult you.
                                             \_ Better to post something than
                                                just rant about the evil BushCo
                                                conspiracy and blindly write
                                                off the opposition without so
                                                much as a link, good or bad.
                                                I'm not the op but still no one
                                                has disproved anything in that
                                                URL at all.  Just fired up the
                                                old "its a troll!" gun and
                                                ripped off a few shots into
                                                the dark.
2003/10/9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:10546 Activity:nil
10/8    http://csua.org/u/4nt
        Patroit Act made Watergate legal
        \_ Why use a plumber when you can use the FBI?
        \_ boy, you would think this would be bigger news.  One would also
           think the FBI would be quick to defend themsleves and at least
           MAKE UP some charge against the mayor.  "Hey, he's black, so
           we are pretty sure he's a cocaine addict".  It looks very bad
           that they can't even say why the bug is there.
2003/10/6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:10493 Activity:moderate
10/6    This is a serious troll. Who thinks Israel's action is a little
        out of line? Maybe Cuba ought to fire a missile at Florida for
        there's a lot of anti-cuban people there.
        \_ No one in Florida is sending suicide bombers to Cuban cafes the
           last I checked.  If you're going to troll, you need to start
           with a better premise.  I salute your efforts, Young Troll, but
           ready for trolling, you are not.
           \_ Well, actually:
           \_ And...there's been little more than "cause we said so" to
              indicate the camp was active or that Syria has been responsible
              for anything other than happening to be there.
        \_ Well...it's Florida...how about Mississippi?  It's almost as
           close.  Or Alabama.
           \_ "We'll try to stay cool and calm
               when Alabama gets the bomb!"
        \_ "Israel must not feel constrained in terms of defending the
           homeland."  -GWB There Bush formally said it. Israel has a green
           light to do whatever it feels like and not feel bound by
           the Geneva Convention, International Law, or any other
           pesky constraints. Watch them nuke Damascus next.
        \_ How is this different from what they have been doing in the past?
           Israel has bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor into oblivion, invaded
           Lebanon, raided PLO's headquarters in Libya. What you see is a normal
           state of affairs in the middle east..
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:10447 Activity:nil
10/3    "There is still some intense fighting to be done, especially out
         in the west," he said. "We should not be surprised if one of these
         mornings we wake up and ... there has been a major firefight with
         some casualties or a significant terrorist attack that kills
         significant numbers of people."
        \_ That's nice.  Who said it and URLp?
           \_ Look up the quote on http://news.google.com.  News sites have had
              a tendency to self-censor this quote.
              \_ Uh huh... so you can't even give us a name?  Get the fuck
                 outta here.  No one has time to search for your random ass
                 nameless quote.  It's just not that interesting.
2003/9/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10264 Activity:nil
9/20    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030919-105619-9614r.htm
        Poor bastard.  BushCo wouldn't have nailed him if he wasn't Muslim.
2003/9/6 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:10103 Activity:high
9/6     Snopes caught red-handed trying to cover their ass when proven wrong!
        \_ who's snopes, and who cares?
           \_ myth-debunking website, often cited as an "authority" by
              fat sysadmins.
        \_ I know who/what snopes is but I agree: who cares?  You seem to
           take this personally.
           \_ Just thought it was funny.  So what do you care about?  Weight
              loss products?
        \_ Oh no!  A someone was wrong, and then they corrected themselves!
           we can never trust them on anything ever again!!
2003/9/3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10051 Activity:nil
        \_ Ugh.  These people WANT a Pax Americana?  I particularly like
           the dictum to "Emulate Second-Century Rome."  Don't these guys
           remember what happened to Rome in the 4th century?
           \- R. Kagan isnt a dumb guy, but he's either sort of blinded
              by some of what he believes or uses a lot of stuff
              disingenuously. I havent had time to process the full
              article but his example where he talks about the
              Scililian Fiasco [search for Glyllipus] is totally
              ridiculous. Obvious, if you have any passing familiarity
              with Thucydides [which of course 90% of the readers wont].
              [in a strage coincidence the real modern expert on this
              is Donald Kagan, who is another crazy right wing nut. note
              also the historian "Erich S. Gruen" R. Kagan refers to
              has an office in Dwinelle. one of berkeley's best lecturers.
           \_ What's wrong with Pax Americana? Or Pax of any sort.
            \_ Cause there ain't no Pax in Pax Americana. -aspo
               \_ Pax Romana was somewhat mislabelled too.  There always will
                  be unhappy fringe elements in any empire.  This does not mean
                  the alternatives (i.e. bloody covert or overt conflicts
                  between major rival powers) are better. -- ilyas
           \- 2nd century AD or BC? take your pick ... --psb
              Cary \& Schullard describe the aftermath as follows:
              ``In other Greek towns they restored the rule of the
              wealthier classes, and they made Corinth safe against
              social revolution by razing it to the ground and selling
              its inhabitants into slavery.''  This was the hard edge
              to the vaunted {\it Pax Romana\/}.
                        --National Identity Myths and the Roman People
              AD: [actually a little earlier, but written ~100]
              ... they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the
              west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they
              covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To
              robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of
              empire; they make a solitude and call it peace.
                               --The Agricola, Speech of [CG]algacus
                The imperial destiny drives hard,
                and fortune has no longer any gift for us
                other than the disunion of our foes.
                               --The Germania
        \_ White Man's burden... I heard that one  before.
           \_ You prefer what?  That muslim fanatics run the world?  Someone
              is going to run the world whether you like it or not.  I prefer
              America run it.
2003/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29415 Activity:insanely high
        It is obviously time to give the Germans another ass-whipping.
        \_ um, this site will be taken down by the government in no time.
           Why do you think it has no domain name?      -long live GWB
        \_ This was eye-opening.  Thanks for posting it.
        \_ To what in particular do you disagree?  with his stated facts?
                \_ 'Vorwaerts' is very closely affiliated with the Social
                   Democratic Party.  Their motto translates to "partisan,
                   political, initiative".  Draw your own confusions.  -John
                   political, initiative".  Draw your own confusions.
                   \_ You draw a vague comparison with a foreign political
                      party and a motto... I'm ok with this, unless you
                      believe you're making a point about something--
                      or are we supposed to follow "Social Democrats" to
                      "Socialism" to "Communism" to "If you're aren't with
                      us, you're with the terrorists"?
                        \_ That article was published in 'Vorwaerts'.  As
                           a quasi-organ of the SDP, it is bound to have a
                           slant.  It's not a vague comparison.  -John
                           \_ When was the last time the biggest threat to
                              freedom and security--both for you and the
                              world--the US president and his
                              world-- was the US president and his
                              administration?  The article has some very
                              good points.
                      \_ Draw your own conclusions.
2003/8/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:29346 Activity:high
8/14    The terrorists have won:
        \_ if i have absolutely no idea who those two chicks are or what
           this is about or why i should care, am i unhip?
        \_ Is that what I get when I die and go to heaven?
        \_ What is it? Company firewall blocking http://mp3.com
                \_ potential underaged Playboy Bunny Twins.
                \_ mary kate and ashley, h-h-h-h-ot
        \_ can't connect, mirror?
2003/8/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29326 Activity:nil
8/12    Bush Planned 9/11 Attack!
        \_ Yes, and I am Osama Bin Laden.
2003/7/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29128 Activity:nil
7/24    I'd like to add another item to Germany's list of problems: idiocy.
        http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L23109558.htm The idea that
        911 was some sort of US Government ordered attack especially after
        numerous previous attempts and statements by known terrorists is well
        beyond stupid.  That enough people in the government could get
        together and pull this off without a leak is sheer insanity.  That
        20-30% of Germans feel this says they're either genetically defective
        or there's something in the water.  Send in a UN Eco Squad to test the
        water immediately!  Save the Germans from their own bad water supply
        before it's too late!
        \_ They're not idiots.  They're just very...assertive as a whole and
           once they latch onto some notion, that's obviously fact.  No more
           than any other country.  -John
           \_ They latched on to the notion despite a huge body of evidence
              and history to the contrary.  Brilliant.  Did all the smart ones
              get weeded out in WWII?
        \_ a lot of germany does have pretty bad water. but i think there is
           value in the idea that the whitehouse influenced the attacks by
           providing hints. if you look at the New American Century, it doesn't
           sound like it's beyond those guys to do something like that.
           \_ influenced?  Nonono, it says they believe the US Government
              planned and executed.
        \_ So what; 20% of Americans believe the sun revolves around
           the earth.  -tom
           \_ Even if so, this is harmless.  Germans thinking 911 was a
              US government conspiracy is not.
           \_ one stupidity doesn't justify or excuse another.
                \_ my point being, "people are stupid" is not specifically
                   a German problem.  -tom
                   \_ stupidity is not a specific german problem, but it is
                      a problem.  and this particular german stupidity is
                      dangerous and egregious.
                   \_ yeah people are stupid in many places so it's ok!!!!
                      you must work for the government.
                        \_ this response indicates which side of the line
                           you belong on.  -tom
                           \_ was there an insult in there somewhere?  you
                              can try harder than that.  after lunch of course.
           \_ In addition 30% of Americans can't find Iraq on the maps and
              %68.22 of all statistics are made up ;)
              \_ There are 3 types of people in this world - those that can
                 count and those that can't.
              \_ Americans being unable to find anything on a map has no
                 bearing on anything.  Germans thinking 911 was some bizarre
                 US government conspiracy despite tremendous evidence to the
                 contrary is dangerous because they make policy decisions and
                 elect their leaders based on that stupidity which hurts us
                 all.  And no it isn't 68.22%.  There are studies that show
                 that 85% of all people who say some percentage of statistics
                 are made up are making that up when we all really know it's
                 only 38% of all statistics that are made up.
2003/7/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:28918 Activity:very high
7/3     If the US can put out a $25 million reward for a hit on Saddam, why
        hasn't Osama Bin Laden put out a similar offer on eXtreme Elvis's head?
        Last time I read Bin Laden has a few hundred million in inheritance.
        I'd like to see Al-Jazeera broadcast something to that effect.
        eXtreme Elvis wanted dead or alive.  $25 million in reward.
        \_ are you trying to get the secret service to confiscate
           Soda?  - danh
                \_ Isn't it almost the 10th anniversary of the last
        \_ unfortunately Bush's head is worth shit.
                   time the feds took Soda?  What better way to commerate it?
           better politician than Bush will ever be. Offering a $25M reward
           for his head does nothing towards actually capturing him and
        \_ Supposedly Osama's not exactly swimming in money anymore.
        \_ unfortunately eXtreme Elvis's head is worth shit.
           \_ This coming from a person who supports a president whose
              head is empty.
        \_ Because the unfortunate truth is that Osama bin Laden is a far
           better politician than eXtreme Elvis will ever be. Offering a $25M
           reward for his head does nothing towards actually capturing him and
           makes him look craven in the Islamic world. Of course, he is
           playing to a domestic crowd, so he doesn't care. I wonder,
           does anyone think:
           "Osama bin Laden, Wanted Dead or Alive"
           plays well in middle America? I know it sounds good on a
           Freeper poster, but I think the average American just finds
           it childish.
           \_ You have far too much faith in the average American
           \_ you think wrong.
           \_ Because no one would admit to collecting the money. You'd make
              yourself an international pariah. Plus bin Laden's view of the
              war would be actions first, then rewarding your next of kin.
           \_ What did they think of Bush's "bring 'em on" statement regarding
              Iraqi attacks? What a boneheaded thing to say. I guess it's easy
              to talk shit when his ass isn't over there.
        \_ This thread made FBI-safe.  Thank you for your participation.
2003/7/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:28903 Activity:moderate
7/2     what's the siren for?
        \_ what siren?
        \_ for making loud noise?
        \_ Homeland Security warning siren.  (I am not making this up.)  -tom
           \_ Is there a terrorist act taking place?
              \_ No, it's just there to warn you that Homeland Security is
                 taking place.
        \_ Can anyone watch Brazil and not think about our current
           "Homeland Security"?
           \_ yes.
2003/6/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:28616 Activity:low
6/3     DIY Cruise Missile:
        \_ This looks like something nweaver would do.
                \_ obIPartiedW/Nweaver
                \_ nweaver has the motive (being disgruntled), the means,
                   and the opportunity to do so. It's just a matter of time.
2003/5/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:28511 Activity:moderate
5/21    After illegally using the homeland security department to hunt down
        the Killer Ds, all records of the hunt for the missing democrats are
        ordered destroyed before an investigation can get started.
        \_ That's pretty sad.  Of course, the so-called Killer D's should be
           removed from office, but so should any nitwit who ordered the
           destruction of records.
           \_ One set was hired, the other set elected.
        \_ Didn't I see this on alt.conspiracy.hate.hate.hate.bush?
2003/5/20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Tax] UID:28493 Activity:high
5/20    Headlines:
        1. Warren Buffet criticizes no-taxes-on-dividends plan as laden
           with Enron-style accounting and implies "rich get richer" effect.
        2. Homeland Security Dept. raises terror threat level from Yellow
           to Orange:  Recent chatter suggests terrorists may be planning a
           major attack inside the U.S.

        Leading stories change from 1 to 2.  Haven't we seen this before?
        \_ Warren Buffet and the other ultra wealthy of this country have
           their own interests in mind which differ vastly from the little
           people such as yourself.  Can you do better than WB?
           \_ Good, I see your heuristics are at work! (no sarcasm)
              Now read his http://washingtonpost.com article: "Putting $1,000 in
              the pockets of 310,000 families with urgent needs is going to
              provide far more stimulus to the economy than putting the same
              $310 million in my pockets."
              \_ I don't believe a word the man says.  You can quote WB all
                 damned day.  He and the other ultra wealthy are not a reliable
                 source of economic advice for little people.  They're so far
                 beyond where we live they couldn't possibly understand and I
                 doubt they care.
                 \_ Gosh.  Are you saying, that even though WB is saying,
                   "I really don't need a tax cut.  People poorer than me
                    needa tax cut.  People poorer than me will actually
                    spend the money instead of simply piling it onto their
                    hoard, stimulating the economy." he's not giving good
                    advice for helping the "little people"?  So you're saying
                    that it's actually better for the little people to
                    tax them more, relatively?
2003/5/6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:28345 Activity:nil
5/5     I say we invade Israel for possesing weapon of massive destruction
        and consistant records of violation of international laws, and
        aggression toward its neighbors.
        \_ And being the only mid east state to allow arabs to vote and the
           mid east state responsible for the fewest arabs deaths in the last
           50 years and the only democratic mid east state and the only mid
           east state to support the US in the UN general assembly more than
           20% of the time.  Those jew bastards, I so hate having such a solid
           democratic ally in such an ugly part of the world.  We should ally
           ourselves with peace loving terrorist dictatorships like the PLO.
           \_ Democracy has NOTHING to do with it.  Lighten up.  Look at
              our OTHER allies: Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? UAE? what do they have
              in common? Absolute Monarchy!  And... if anything, *IRAN* has
              a democracy!  It just that their democracy is very different
              than what we got over here.
                \_ You can't have a democracy if there is no freedom of ideas,
                freedom of the press, etc. If you're too progressive, you'll
                get the death sentence in Iran...
                -dated an Iranian, I guess that makes me an expert.
        \_ It's really simple, Sam:  If the other side has suicide bombers,
           all bets are off.
           \_ Stupid logic trap.  Suicide bomber are only thing they got.
              without it, Israel will never even consider return land
              which they conquered.
2003/4/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/Electric] UID:28165 Activity:very high
4/19    Any philosophy minors out there?  I'd like to figure out how to
        think without resorting to for statements and recursion.  Are
        there any good books to start off with, or any particular thinkers
        that you have enjoyed?  I took some ancient greek philosophy class
        for my AC, hated it with a passion, but I look back now and realize
        that I like knowing about Aristotle's (?) cave and Plato's idiotic
        Republic.  Anyway, I'm more interested in more modern thought now.
        \_ It's not Aristotle's cave.  If you want to study laws of thought
           study logic, probability theory, and decision theory.
           Philosophy is very good to study, but not for that reason.
           \_ Well, I definitely want philosophy.  For whatever reason.
              Any good books?
              \_ While modern philosophy is interesting, it's difficult to put
                 it in a proper context without reading the greeks and
                 christian philosophers like Acquinas.  I would start there.
                 \- i dont think this is true in the case of Acquinas [sic].
                    the scholastics are a big detour. --psb
        \_ A related note.  Anybody watch West Wing?  The two times I saw it
           I heard the characters talk about John Rawls and a theory of
           justice and the veil of ignorance.  And also Immanuel Kant and
           a critique of pure reason.  I strongly doubt the average couch
           potato even knows what that means.  I'm wondering how the show can
           be a big hit if people don't even understand what they're talking
           \_ Note that "For whatever reason" above includes the West Wing.
              There's a middle ground b/w encouraging further investigation
              and talking down to viewers. -op
           \_ Ever watch Fraiser? You think think the average couch potato
              knows who der fliegende hollander is or who wrote the opera?
              Probably not. A show can be a hit despite the fact most of
              the content is way over the heads of the average fan.
                \_ hello psb. I know die fliegende and I even named your fav
                   aria from Mozart's Don Giovanni. -psb #2 fan you know
                   who I am
                \_ hello psb. I know die fliegende and I even named your
                   fav aria from Mozart's Don Giovanni. -psb #2 fan you
                   know who I am
                        \_ I'm not psb.
                           \- i think it is more important to take away
                              "tools and frameworks" in which to understand
                 \_ If you had pointy ears or an extremely pale
                    complextion with yellow contacts it would all
                    make sense to you.
              \_ puccini or donizetti?
                 \_ wagner
                 \_ wagner  \_ elixir or lucia?
                              the world [e.g. per ST2:TWoKhan, does the good
                              of the many *always* outweight the good of the
                              few?] and thoughtful answers to Big Questions
                              [like what do the Homeric Epics tell us about
                              "what is good in life?" or "what merits respect
                              or constitutes excellence?"] rather than getting
                              random cultural reference on tv. one is a game
                              the other is wisdom. --psb
              \_ Yeah, just look at Star Trek.  It's not only over
                 peoples heads, it's all total bullshit.
        \_ If you are interested in epistemology (how do we know what we
           know), you can check out the big hitters like Hume, Kant, and
           Wittgenstein, but they might be difficult to read without
           some instruction. Some modern philosophy of science would also
           be interesting, like Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific
           Revolution. However, it seems that you are more interested in
           how to reason informally than epistemology. For that, I'd
           recommend a Rhetoric 1 textbook.
              \_ how about the metaphysics, epistimology, and logic of
                 kissing partha?
           \- with some trepidation about casting pearls ...
                  \- respectively, rawls: green monster and nozick: anarchy
                     state utopia, posner: econ analysis of law, hard one...
                     maybe laski or e.h. carr, kant: crit pur reason.
              if you give a specific example of some kinds of questions
              you are interested in ... "what is the philosophical basis
              of progressive taxation" "what kinds of contracts should not
              be legal" "what is the basis and limits of state soverignty"
              "is there a possibility of synthetic a priori knowledge" ...
              it will only then be possible to make recommendations beyond
              "start with plato". in other news, kant's birthday is next week
              and john rawls died quite recently. --psb
                     limits of philosophy, or something my michael sandel.
                  \- okay, let's assume those are the questions to be
                  asked. what do you recommend?
                  \- respectively, 1. rawls: green monster and nozick: anarchy
                     state utopia, 2. posner: econ analysis of law, 3.hmm...
                     maybe laski or e.h. carr ... hobbes locke and plato
                     of course are a given; 4. kant: crit pur reason.
                     but really you should ask your own questions.
                     i think you might be better off taking an econ1
                     type course. try reading the baulmol and blinder
                     econ textbook. or maybe take a philosophy class
                     at a community college. based on this conversation
                     you will not get through wittgenstein, hume, kant etc.
                     you might be better off reading someone modern who writes
                     in normal english ... maybe williams: ethics and the
                     limits of philosophy, or something by michael sandel.
2003/3/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Security] UID:27686 Activity:very high
3/13    http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030313/4942670s.htm
        "Much of the information on Mohammed's laptop computer was protected
        by an encryption code that CIA analysts cracked easily, U.S.
        intelligence officials said."  It was probably RSA or PGP.  What else
        is he likely to have used?  Something from MS?
        \_ They threated to kill his preteen kids if he didn't give them
           the password.
           \_ Damn those unsecure end nodes.
        \_ Microsoft Visual ROT13++
           \_ Microsoft Active Visual 2ROT13#.
              \_ Be sure to download the first three patches and upgrade
                 before using. The fourth patch allows you to encrypt, but
                 won't decrypt non-MS ROT13 encryptions. They are still working
                 on it...
                 \_ This stuff is getting so old it's not even funny anymore.
                     \_ This stuff is still funny, because it is still
                        the case, despite how long it has been the case.
        \_ Any system in which the key is shorter than the message is an
           inherently weak system. The only one "safe" encryption system
           is OTP (and even that is not safe if you have your own Guardian
           of Forever)
           \_ Guardian of Forever?  Is this some nerdy book/tv/movie reference?
              \_ Here's a cookie for you.
                 \_ I'm serious.  What is it?
                    \_ Watch TOS Ep. 28.
                        \_ so what the fuck is TOS?
                           \_ You do realize that no one is obligated to
                              answer your question, yes?
                           \_ Your geekdom passport has been revoked.
                              \_ 'cause we all know jocks r00l.
                              \_ oh no!  What WILL I do?  Oh that's right,
                                 have a life.  Never mind.
                                 \_ Sorry, but we don't buy it.  You've
                                    already proven you have no life by
                                    posting here.
2003/2/23 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:27499 Activity:high
2/22    Is osama dead? if not, why wouldn't he show his face?
        \_ Maybe he has changed his face and doesn't want his reward
           photos updated?
2003/1/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:27151 Activity:very high
1/18    Looks like some senators still have a little backbone:
        \_ this is why everyone, regardless of party affiliation should
           vote in the democratic primary so they acan vote against
           \_ Lieberman isn't even mentioned in the article that I could see.
              WTF are you talking about?
              \_ Anti-Semitic troll attempt.
        \_ The original logo for the Information Awareness Office is scary.
           \_ "Concealed in his fortress, the Eye of Mordor sees all."
        \_ Does the Information Awareness Office remind anyone else of the
           "Information Retrieval" office in the movie "Brazil"?
           \_ No.
        \_ Does the Department of Homeland Security remind anyone
           else of the Ministry of Love?
2002/12/26 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:26918 Activity:nil
12.26   tom, please don't stop posting. some of us actually find some of the
        things you have to say helpful. either accept the flames from those
        who are in the FlameTomFanClub or post anonymously so that your
        comments don't get watered down with personal attacks...
        -not tom#1fan, but appreciates non-attacking comments from motd'ers.
        \_ posting anonymously would be "letting the terrorists win", so to
           speak.  -tom
           \_ Glad to see you've come around to the conservative point of view.
           \_ i agree. but don't let the soda bitches stop you from posting.
              if you do, they are winning doubly. --hates terrorists
              \_ Huh. I don't particularly agree or disagree with the man but
                 his braying grates badly. I wrote a script that only shows the
                 me the motd on login if his name (and a few others things such
                 as freeper posts) doesn't appear. Unfortunately, I sometimes
                 look anyway...
                 \_ I think you've got the wrong attitude about it.  With
                    tongue in cheek it can be quite entertaining to engage tom
                    in a discussion especially if you know in advance he's way
                    out on a limb talking about something he knows nothing
                    about.  This happens a lot more than tom is willing to
                    admit which is what makes the motd so fun.  I'm still
                    trying to figure out why he keeps spewing about indians
                    and h1bs taking over everything.  He has no suggested
                    actions one can take to prevent this from happening,
                    assuming he's even right about it.  He just seems to enjoy
                    inflicting FUD on people in these uncertain economic times
                    which I find cruel and mean spirited.  That sort of thing
                    must be countered.
        \_ Who said tom would stop posting?
2002/12/23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:26890 Activity:insanely high
11/22   Homeland Security: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html
        \_ Wow.  this made me feel physically ill.
                \_ How ill did 9/11 make you feel?  -ax
                   \_ 9/11 has nothing to do with this.  This is incompetence
                      in the highest degree.  Airport security is a sham at
                        \_ Airport security is about "feeling" same and
                           "appearing" safe. Its not about being safe.
                           The problem is that most people prefer the
                           perception of security to actual security.
                           \_ and terrorism is about "appearing" unsafe.
                              even after 9/11 it's much safer to fly than
                              to drive.  more americans have died from cars
                              than all the wars in american history, yet
                              cars are percieved as normal and people
                              will refiuse to fly for the slight risk of
                              something happening.  the fundamental problem
                              is that people are fucking idiots.
                   \_ 9/11 was repulsive, but this is equally repulsive.
                      If the response to terrrorism is to nullify the bill
                      of rights then the country we live in is no longer
                      America. "They that can give up essential liberty to
                      purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither
                      liberty or safety."
                        \_ Where does it say in the constitution you are
                           guaranteed the right to air travel without search?
                           Plus, comparing this to 9/11 is saying breast
                           groping is equal to 3000 deaths.  I've had
                           by chest groped, I don't think they are equal.-ax
                                \_ This single incident is representative
                                   of the thousands of similar occurences
                                   in airports nationwide that go unreported.
                                   Each violation of the rights of the
                                   individual by the state is fundamentally
                                   wrong. If you think that the appropriate
                                   response to 9/11 is to forgo the rights of
                                   the individual (as enumerated in the BoR)
                                   and let the state do whatever it wants to
                                   the citizens then you don't understand the
                                   essence the American Experiment.
                           \_  " The right of the people to be secure in their
                                 persons, houses, papers, and effects, against
                                 unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not
                                 be violated." It says it right there.
                                \_ You agreed to be searched when you
                                voluntarily entered the airport to fly.
                                You could have not flown and then you
                                wouldn't have been searched.  That sounds
                                reasonable to me.  -ax
                                \_ what was that someone saying about people
                                   being fucking idiots?
                           \_ It is not at all saying they're the same.
                              But you tell a mother that endangering her
                              baby's health is worth the "increased security"
                              this purportedly provides and she'll smack your
                              ass, and rightly so. --scotsman
                           \_ Choosing to fly while pregnant is a big risk,
                              if you really cared about your baby, you wouldn't
                              fly while pregnant.  My wife isn't.  -ax
                \_ you're letting someone immigrate out of
                   your wife's womb?  shock!  dismay!
                              \_ While I agree with this, some people don't
                                 have a choice and in America one has a
                                 reasonable expectation to be secure in one's
                                 person and property against search (Amd. IV)
                                 \_ The Fourth Amendment was already shredded
                                    during the "war on drugs." How many times
                                    do you think this and far worse indignities
                                    were perpetrated on poor people in America
                                    in the last 30 years? The only difference
                                    this time is that a middle class reporter's
                                    wife is getting groped. The chickens have
                                    indeed come home to roost.
                                    \_ I don't support the war on drugs. But
                                       I once had hope that we could recover
                                       from it and restore the constitution
                                       without bloodshed. Now it seems the
                                       only way to take back America is in
                                       the way the way of the founding fathers.
        \_ Zero Tolerance, baby. Love it or leave it.
           \_ I love America. In America such things should not happen.
        \_ Have you guys heard of martial law?  When you are at war,
           your rights get modified.  That is a sacrifice every American
           is expected to make for the good of the country.  Guess what,
           if we win the war, you get your rights back.  If we lose, you
           don't.  -ax
           \_ Wow. You really, actually believe the Bushies intend to give you
              your rights back if they "win". That's just...I mean, I don't
              even think Ann Coulter or one of them would make that claim.
                \_ Ok, no one gives up any rights, and the terrorists keep
                crashing planes into our buildings until the government
                collapses, and the terrorists now rule the U.S.  Do you
                think you have a bill of rights then?  People just assume
                the US lives forever.  Did you ever think it might get
                killed off someday?  -ax
           \_ This is the same excuse that we heard during the "war on drugs."
              This war is the same: defined so that it is unwinnable, thereby
              justifying a permanent state of emergency.
           \_ I asked this once before and people called me a pedant or
              whatever, but I'll ask it again.  Did Congress actually
              declare war on something?  Or can we be under martial law
              just because the President calls a police action a "war"?
        \_ One last question, for those of you unwilling to yield any of
           your rights under any cirumstance, are you willing to serve
           your country in the armed forces in a time of dire need?  -ax
           \_ I would bet there are very very few people who are "unwilling
              to yield any of [their] rights under any circumstances."  You're
              polarizing the discussion, thus undermining your point.  I
              personally think that all politics has been distilling down to
              exactly this distinction: for what are you willing to sacrifice
              which liberties.
              Also, I would be willing to serve in homeland defense, but
              not in an armed forces dedicated to economic protection on
              foreign soil for the sake of a few very powerful people.
        \_ Polarizing the argument is the point.  My point is that the
        majority of people commenting don't care enough about this
        country to make ANY sacrifice for it.  Your constitutional rights
        are guaranteed by the ability of the US government and military
        to maintain the soverignty of our nation,
        not by simply stating them in a motd.  The constitution would be
        meaningless if instead of bearing arms against foreign enemies,
        our founding fathers sat around debating endlessly against those
        taking action because it might infringe on their "rights".  -ax
        \_ exactly how is a pregnant white woman from L.A. a "foreign
           enemy"?  -tom
                \_ She might have had exploding breasts!!  -ax  :)
        \_ There's plenty of criticism here.  What's the solution?
           Do nothing?  For those who are so quick to poke holes in
           the current strategy, what's yours?  -ax
           \_ Kick the shit out of our enemies so they are afraid of us
              again.  Nothing is served, or stopped, by fucking up our
           \_ I don't see any problem which is solved by lying on police
              reports in order to be able to arrest American citizens and
              threaten them with felonies for no real reason.  The question
              is not how to "solve" the terrorism problem, the question is,
              what real purpose is served by such gestapo tactics?  -tom
2002/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26861 Activity:high
12/19   Does anyone in the INS or the Justice dept actually believe that any
        of the people that have been arrested are terrorists?
        \_ Of course, terrorists take the time and energy to register
           with immigration authorities.  *snicker*
           \_ Idiot, the best way to blend in is to sign up with everyone
              else so you don't stick out.  Do you avoid paying the IRS so
              they won't catch you making a filing error, too?  *snicker*
           \_ why not?  there have been a bunch of al qaida terrorists
                \_ Except in this case you get arrested and thrown in
                   jail which prevents you from completing your mission.
                   \_ maybe that's on purpose. a sort of "cry for help".
           \_ why not?  there have been a bunch of terrorist-types
              who are also legal us immigrants.  a us passport is handy
              for international travel.  besides, if a terrorist could
              follow us immigration law at a low cost, why not?  why
              increase one's exposure to law enforcement?
           \_ Would you expect a terrorist to follow traffic laws?
        \_ i thought those socal fellows were arrested for things like
           visa violation.
           \_ Pretty much. They are playing the Zero Tolerance game. Any
              problems with your visa and, poof, you're in jail.
              \_ Actually it should be no visa = ass kicked out.  I don't want
                 to spend money keeping these clowns in jail.  Plane tickets
                 are much cheaper.
              \_ zero tolerance is good.
                 \_ Be sure to think that the next time you get a speeding
                    or parking ticket.
                    \_ i wish they did.  the best way to get a bad law
                       repealed is for the authorities to enforce it.
                       of course, the logic behind this idea of zero
                       tolerance on one law requires zero tolerance on
                       all laws is questionable.
                    \_ What the other guy said.  And I don't protest and
                       throw fits when I do get a speeding ticket.
2002/11/28-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26662 Activity:moderate
11/28   But when Scott Armstrong, founder of the National Security Archive
        and a former staff member of Senate Watergate committee was
        told of the news, he laughed for a solid minute. - danh
        \_ was told of what news?  WTF are you trying to talk about?
           thankfully no one is able to read your mind.  post a link or kill
           your post.  you're wasting precious bits.
        \_ Henry Kissinger: This Man Is On The Other Side
           \_ The above about Armstrong is *not* in the freeper link.  This
              is all BS.
        \_ Here's what plastic has to say about Kissinger:
           Poliitical satire became obsolete when they awarded Henry
           Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize.
2002/11/27-28 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:26654 Activity:very high
11/27   How is a Kissinger led fact-finding commission going to reassure
        Americans about anything? I really don't understand this, what
        is Bush's purpose in putting that man in charge? Conservatives,
        help me understand here, is Kissinger actually well respected and
        trusted by anyone? -ausman
        \_ it's about the money.  It's all about the money.
        \_ could you give a news link to tell those of us who live in
           a Faraday cage with a text terminal what you are talking about?
           \_ http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/politics/27CND-BUSH.html
        \_ The Nobel committee (along with Arafat).  -tom
        \_ He is, no shit, a rock star to conservatives young and old.
     Let me speak honestly, frankly, openheartedly. You are a liar.
                                        --Le Duc Tho to Henry Kissinger
     I showed nothing on my face, but in my heart, I laughed and laughed.
                                        --Henry Kissinger
                                                                \- psb
           \_ In a way, Kissiner is an American hero.  He act solely upon
              the interest of American States. In the process, again
              and again fulfilled American's Imperial agenda over the
              world.  The price, is violate just about every  idealogy
                which the founding fathers envisioned about human rights,
                civil rights, and democracy.  Then again, he got
                Nobel Peace price, something I still couldn't figure out
                \_ The FF didn't believe in democracy or what we today refer
                   to as human rights.  As far as the "Imperial" agenda goes,
                   we'd be the first country to ever exert our so called
                   imperial power through McDonald's and Nike.  If other
                   countries don't want us to be powerful they should stop
                   giving us so much money for our stuff.  The Nobel PP is a
                   complete crock.  They gave it to Arafat, a known murderer
                   and terrorist.  Try to figure *that* one out.  Kissinger
                   might not be a nice person but he never pulled a trigger.
        \_ I'm not sure which is a better line but we need more of both of
           these types of men.
        \_ Kissinger: He'll find whatever there is to find.  It is just a
           case of how it gets reported and spun.  As far as will it reassure
           anyone, dunno.  I find it more reassuring than if say Jimmy Carter
           or some other ninny was doing it.  At least this way there'll be a
           file with the truth in it that'll come out in 50 years at worst.
           \_ Okay, some are reassured. That is all I wanted to know, thanks.
              \_ And others are waiting to see where they're going to fit
                 Haig back into the club.
                 \_ Or maybe Walter Mondale.  He'd make a good Senator or
2002/11/27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:26649 Activity:very high
11/26   In 2000 I thought he was a 4 faced lying sack of ego maniacal shit.
        Now I just feel sorry for him.  I think he's lost it.
        \_ If I were Mike Judge, i'd have my lawyers send that guy a letter.
           His scketch of Gore looks *exactly* like Butthead.
        \_ Well he's a bit misguided;  he sees some sort of far-reaching
           plot in the media when, with very very few precious exceptions,
           it's all just shit geared towards idiots.  Never ascribe to
           malice or stupidity what can be explained by raw sewage.  -John
           \_ yeah, it's pretty funny how the right thinks the media are
              part of a giant leftist conspiracy and the left think it's
              a giant right-wing conspircacy...while the executives
              who control the media know it's just a conspiracy to make them
              lots of money.
              \_ No one with a grain of sense believes in the "liberal media"
                 myth.  He's very right about the machine of foxnews.  It
                 amazes me that anybody actually watches it.  --scotsman
                 \_ Oh, so the surveys that show that 90% of journalists vote
                    Democrat are a myth, eh?
                 \_ If you watch ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN and it doesn't offend you and
                    you're voting left then maybe it doesn't offend you because
                    they have the same politics you do?  I vote right and find
                    all of them sickening.  I understand that when I listen to
                    Rush he has an agenda.  He makes it clear he's biased and
                    doesn't claim to be unbiased.  When I used to watch the
                    3-letters news it was clear they had a bias but were
                    unwilling or unable to cop to it possibly because they
                    really honestly think they're fair and even handed even
                    though they're clearly not.
                    \_ Actually, what upsets me is that in the attempt to be
                       unbiased, the quite probably liberal-minded reporters
                       leave stuff out that should be said (albeit in an
                       editorial rather than a report, but when was the last
                       time you saw editorial or simply an attempt at historical
                       context on any newscast). --scotsman
                       \_ I don't trust the newsmedia to provide a historic
                          context to anything.  They're not historians.  They
                          are commercial providers of current information and
                          nothing more.
                    \_ maybe they are being fair, and the right-wingers just
                       have agendas that sound ridiculous when they're
                       reported fairly.  -tom
                       \_ maybe, or maybe you've been drinking your own
                          lemonade for too long.
        \_ The RNC has been crying "left-wing media bias" for 20 years.
           Turnabout is fair play.
           \_ It's not turnabout.  The media has been left wing for far more
              than 20 years.  Just what the world didn't need is hiding behind
              more false moral equivalency.
              \_ And from my perspective, the media has been pro-business
                 and corporate run and controlled for much longer than that.
                 So it really matters where you are looking at it from.
        \_ Scaife and others have spent hundreds of millions smearing him
           and Clinton. He is telling the truth:
           \_ Scaife hasn't spent hundreds of anything.  And even if he and
              mysterious 'others' did, that's still nothing next to the 24x7
              value provided by the 3letter networks for decades without any
              counterpoint until now.  Gore is just upset the Right can
              finally get their message out.  He think it's unfair.  Boo hoo.
              I had to stop reading your link after laughing my ass off in the
              summary paragraph: "One of the machine's most important leaders
              is Richard Mellon Scaife, the billionaire who is financing
              nearly all the scandals that engulf President Clinton."  Did
              Scaife buy the Blue Dress(tm) or The Cigar(c)?  *laugh*
              \_ Scaife has contributed millions. Your denying it does
                 not strengthen your case.
2002/11/14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:26547 Activity:nil
11/14   Big Brother is coming:
        \_ "Poindexter said any operational system would include safeguards to
            govern the collection of information. "  At least there will be a
            Minority Report!
2002/11/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:26531 Activity:insanely high
11/13   conspiracy theory of the day:  if Bin Laden were really alive,
        he'd send al jazeera a video, not an audio tape. hence, the message
        is fake.  however it is a good fake, that has convinced people
        who know his voice very well. this implies technological
        sophistication, as well as the intelligence to fake Bin Ladens
        rather fancy sounding arabic.  who would have the motive and the
        technical knowhow?  Iraq.  I think this is a fake broadcast by
        Iraq to try to erode international support for the U.S.
        \_ You are completely wrong. The only gov. that has the kind of
           resources to fake a message like that and get all of the media
           outlets to buy into it is our gov. If you want to be exact
           not the elected gov. but rather the shadow gov. that actually
           runs things and spreads misinformation and manipulates the
           public in order to keep us from knowning the Truth! that we
           are being used a pawns by aliens bent on galatic conquest.
           Bin Laden and Sept. 11 and Iraq are all just a cover for the
           shadow gov. to get funding for black ops. projects designed
           to facilitate the conversion. Trust No One! - F. Mulder
        \_ Which leads us to the "napalm the fuckin barbarians" school of
           law enforcement.  -John
        \_ Even if you're correct on everything, bin laden being alive won't
           erode support for the US.  Please avoid jobs at the State Dept.
           \_ did you read the transcript of the message?  it's not the
              existence of the message, but the content.
              \_ I read it all.  So what?  You're still in la-la land.
        \_ It'd more believable if you said it's the US who had the motive and
           the technical knowhow to fake it.
           \_ Ooo! I like this one. Only Bin Laden isn't the target anymore.
              \_ bin laden has never been the target.  if he were, he'd be dead.
              \- i think in the past they have been able to get various info
                 from the video tape ... location conjectures, health of OBL
                 etc so that might be one reason also. --psb
                 \_ you think no one who works for bin laden has heard of
                    a bluescreen?  i would like to hope that they're that
                    stupid, but i doubt it.
                    \_ Blue and green screen are easily detectable and are
                       pointless if you're trying to look holy and tough.
2002/11/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Consumer/Camera] UID:26411 Activity:very high
11/4    Anyone has any URLs to the nude pictures of a female star published in
        in a magazine Hong Kong a week or so ago that brought the magazine to
        closure?  Thanks.
        \_ do you want the nude pix of the nepalese actress that got her to
           kill herself too?
           kill herself too? well a lot of people are agitating about this
           in nepal. there were also allegagtions she was a ho.
           oh this newspaper is on the weeb but it might be hard for
           most of you white people to read. i guess you can look at the
           pictures. see e.g. http://www.nepalnews.com.np/janastha.htm
           \_ psb, silly boy, look harder:
              You know, for the white people.  --erikred
              \- well that isnt where the good stuff is. that's the spin.--psb
           \_ yes
           \_ Did this actually happen?  I can't find much sympathy for
              someone who was so ashamed by nudity.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5396450%255E401,00.html _/
              \_ She was probably condemned by the society.  If she felt
                 ashamed about it, she wouldn't have posted nude.
                 \_ yeah im sure no one does anything they'd be ashamed of
                    earlier in life when they're desperate for cash or a break.
                    get off the motd you spoiled silver spooned elitist pig
                   \_ uhuh...and you are speaking of personal experience?
2002/10/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:26240 Activity:high
10/17   3 votes against the asian chick.  Racism!
        \_ stay angry! http://www.angryasianman.com/angry.html
        \_ What about Terilyn Joe?
2002/10/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:26208 Activity:insanely high
10/16   "Pentagon to Help in Hunting Sniper"
        It's the second time in three weeks that the military is called into
        domestic law enforcement.  Have our law enforcement agencies become so
        \_ As my manager, a former jarhead, says, "using marines as peacemakers
           is insane.  Marines' job is to KILL THINGS."
           \_ the sniper is not just a normal criminal.  this is someone
              who has been trained as a soldier.
           \_ I am into finding whoever the sniper(s) is,
              and killing him.
           \_ But they're gonna kill terrorists!  RRRRAAAAGH!  I LOVE
        \_ Don't worry, Ashcroft will make it legal for the military to
           participate in domestic matters.  It's for national security.
           They didn't have terrorists back in the 1700's, so obviously our
           Founding Fathers hadn't foreseen the implications of their Bill
        \_ maybe you should law enforcement, hotshot.
        \_ maybe you should join the law enforcement, hotshot.
           of Rights.
           \_ I said we just toss our stupid Constitution all together.
              This 300 yr old document is way out-dated...
           \_ Soon, we shall have soldiers stationed in our homes.
           \_ What was the original idea of having that law back then?
        \_ And a total violation of Posse Comitatus laws.
           \_ What Pussy Coitus laws?
        \_ maybe you should the law enforcement, hotshot.
           \_ I can't find a verb in that sentince.
              \_ What's a "sentince"?
        \_ why don't they use national guard troops first?
        \_ and how would you classify troops at large airports?
           \_ absolutely useless.
           \_ Technically it was domestic law enforcement, but that was 9/11
              related.  These two times they were a bank robbery at Nebraska
              and then a psycho sniper killing random people.  (Yeah, I know
              Ridge hasn't ruled out terrorism on the sniper case.)
              \_ would you draw a line between troops under civilian
                 command/control and military command/control?
              \_ Not really. Airports are federal facilities and can troops
                 can be used to protect them. Not law enforcement, guard duty.
        \_ its just surveillance aircraft.  It would be useful to the
           \_ Not really unless the perp is using the same vehicle and not
              under cover when aircraft are finally put into the air. I would
              suspect that other military resources (real-time satellite
              photography) MIGHT be useful. But with all the press, I'm
              guessing the perp will use a different MO for each new killing.
2002/10/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:26132 Activity:very high
10/8    Ex-FBI Chief Rejects 9/11 Criticism
        "I repeatedly testified before Congress that FBI agents were
        statutorily barred from obtaining portions of credit reports on certain
        national security subjects which used car dealers could order and
        No wonder.  Silly law.
        \_ used car dealers shouldn't be able to either.
           \_ I'm not really sure what parts of credit reports we're
              talking about.  I looks to me like they mean the whole
              report.  I guess I have a question.  Who should be able to
              read credit reports then?  -jrleek
              \_ No one but people who need it to conduct business with you and
                 only with your permission.
           \_ They don't unless you give them permission to look. He wants
              the FBI to have access to your financial records without
              requesting a warrant.
              \_ whatever happened to respect for the bill of rights?
                 \_ That went out over 50 years ago.  Don't kid yourself.
                        \_ so i guess we just give up right now?
        \_ How do you plan to catch terrorists before they attack without
           violating the "right to privacy" you are so freely giving them?  -ax
           \_ motdformatd was here.
           \_ "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary
              security, deserve neither liberty or security."
              -Benjamin Franklin
        \_ How does obtaining credit reports help with catching
           terrorists?  Nothing on the credit reports has any information
           that's even remotely related.
2002/10/6-7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:26117 Activity:moderate
10/6    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2303363.stm
        Just because you're French and cut deals with terrorists on a daily
        basis doesn't mean they won't attack you too.
        \_ which deals are those?
           \_ You live on Earth, circa 2002AD, right?  The French have a looong
              history of cutting deals and _trying_ to placate terrorists.  It
              never works but they keep trying.
              \_ well, they're french.  what alternatives do that have?
                 it's cut deals or just surrender and let the terrorists
                 goose step down the champs elysees.
                 \_ hey that worked out well last time.
2002/9/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:26018 Activity:insanely high
9/26    Watergate quality mess for the Dems.
        [Why do you keep deleting this newsworthy link?] :
        "The story has received national media attention. Articles have
        appeared on political Web sites for CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, the Washington
        Post and others."
        And the followup link as they narrow down who is going to jail:
        \_ hmm, in one case a disgruntled worker leaks a tape he made of
           a strategy meeting for a senate seat, in another the president
           has the cia break and enter, bug, and photograph key documents
           of the opposing candidate.  Not to mention a highly detailed cover
           up that includes lieing to congress.  Yah I can see why you
           think they on the same level.
2002/9/22 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25972 Activity:very high
09/21   Anyone know how true the facts are in this article?
         \_ Well Bruce Willis is certainly NOT a "New Age hack
         for M. Night Shyalaman."  As for the rest. it certainly
         suffers credibility wise by a complete lack of
         references/links even to "media reports" which it
         makes vague claims to.
        \_ Who read this: ....
        \_ Facts:  Pretty solid.  Interpretation: Questionable.
           \_ Facts are shakey.  No links.  No references.  Just spew.  He
              belongs on the motd, not trying to publish like he's a real
              journalist or reporter of any sort.  Spew, spew, spew.
              \_ "Like he's a real journalist" is debatable. "Exile.ru." Think
                 about it. These are morons who forgot what "exile" really
                 means and think that just because they ran from their
                 homeland in an attention-grubbing tantrum, they deserve a
                 soapbox to speak from. Ran, let alone, to Russia, where
                 all reasonable people run _from_, not _to_.
                 \_ Exile is the name of the paper they write that is geared
                    towards expats living in Moscow.
                 \_ If he's going to go off op/ed style trying to convince
                    his readership of a lot of heavy hitting shit than he can
                    at least come up with some minor references.  I'm not clear
                    on what this website is about.  Did this idiot flee *to*
                    Russia *from* the US or other western country?  Baffling.
                \_ he fled from UC Berkeley actually, look for the Exile
                   book and reviews on Amazaon
        \_ Someone link FreeRepublic to it.
           \_ Why?  Why are so many here apparently obsessed with the freepers?
              They're just the mindless right wing's version of the mindless
              left wing's idiots.  Freeper freaks on the right, SF Bay Area
              freaks on the same.  Same closed minded, self deluded, agenda
              driven stupidity.
2002/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/911, Transportation/Car] UID:25925 Activity:very high
9/18    Anybody else annoyed at all this bickering over money for those who
        died on 9/11?  I understand that they need the money.  But why is
        private life insurance not enough?  Why does the US gov't have to
        get involved in paying the families?  We're talking about something
        like 1+ million dollars per family.  This is on top of the life
        insurance they're getting.
        \_ Anybody who could ask questions like this must really hate America.
           \_ not at all. I don't hate America but I also don't
              think that the federal government owes anybody
              anything because of 9-11. They didn't bomb the WTC,
              pentagon, or pennsylvania, after all.
        \_ Maybe this is not compensation but disaster relief aid?  But $1M per
           family of relief aid is way too much compared to aids in other
           disasters.  It's all politics in this case.
           \_ Maybe the other cases didn't get enough and should?  Who is to
              \_ Are you saying every family who has members killed in a car
                 accident or a fire or a robbery should get $1M from the
                 federal govt?
                 \_ Is a car accident a national disaster requiring relief?
                    \_ No, and that's my point.  Why do families of killed
                       victims of 9/11 "require" $1M fed aid while those of
                       killed victims of random car accidents or bank robberies
                       \_ i suppose the gov't is responsible more for WTC
                          because it was the gov't that pissed off bin laden.
                       \_ it has nothing to do with "responsible" as the
                          morally bankrupt would claim.  it has to do with
                          scale.  when one DUI rams his car into a wall, the
                          country goes on.  when 3000 people die, 4 planes go
                          down, 2 *HUGE* buildings are gone, and the pentagon
                          gets a big hole in it, people need to know the govt
                          is doing something.  disaster relief for family
                          victims is one small part of that.
                          \_ I thought our impending invasion of Iraq was
                             our government's way of letting the people
                             know that they're doing something.
                             \_ Nothing to do with it.
           \_ It was a reflexive response. Note that for all those killed
              in the Sept. 11 attacks (including non-Americans) are getting
              the money. In the Sudanese embassy bombing, only Americans are
              being compensated (this means non-citizen employees and
              bystanders killed/hurt by the blast are not getting money).
              It's all very emotional. See the Red Cross incident.
        \_ The reasonable bickering is about cases like the Red Cross who
           ostensibly raised money for the families of the victims, but then
           were *very* stingy about actually giving it to them.  Given the
           public response for the victims, I don't see a need for federal aid
           for the victims (except perhaps in helping them contact the various
2002/9/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:25897 Activity:nil
9/14    'You have to kill in the name of Allah until you are killed'
2002/9/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25876 Activity:high
9/13    "A Meditation on Our Vanishing Liberties, One Year After the
        9-11 Attacks"
        \_ People here pick on the mainstream newspaper URLs I post because
           they have a tin foil and black helicopter fear of the moonies, yet
           the village voice is posted as if it could be taken seriously?
           \_ have you ever dealt directly with a moonie controlled
              business?  they're like the mafia, only they can
              hide behind religion and they seem to be better at
              what they do.  it's not paranoia.  fuck the moonies.
              \_ And this has exactly what to do with newspapers or their
                 \_ i go to their website, it increments their counters,
                    makes their site more popular, and increases their
                    advertising revenue so they can attack more busineses.
                    i don't care if there are good reporters on staff at
                    the washingon times; i will *never* knowingly support
                    a cult's business, having been hurt by them in the
                    \_ You actually decrease their click through rate,
                       which hurts them.  You may increase their unique
                       visitors count, which may help.
                    \_ Ok, at least you admit to having an axe to grind and
                       it has *nothing* to do with the quality of their staff.
           \_ By "moonies" you mean members of the Unification Church founded
              by the Korean Sun Myung Moon?  What does that have to do with
              mainstream newspapers in US?
              \_ That's what I keep asking but my mainstream newspaper URLs
                 will get dismissed out of hand as "moony propoganda" without
                 any reference to the content which is always available
2002/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25869 Activity:nil
9/12    Victory of the proletariat
        What the loss of Brazil to "the Reds" would mean for the United States
        \_ Who cares, I'm more freaked out about the country/economy/
           just about everything I hold near and dear going to hell
           if/when/certainly! the bush administration invades Iraq
        \_ why don't you post a news link rather than a right-wing
           editorial.   can't you just write your own right-wing
           editorials here on the motd?
                \_ Have you ever seen the word 'Communist' associated with
                   any of the politicians mentioned in the mainstream
                   press.  I rest my case.
2002/9/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25867 Activity:kinda low
9/12    "N.Y. Lottery Drawing Pops Up 9-1-1"
        Coincidence?  You name it.
        \_ oh my god! wowowowow!  I wonder how many millions of random
           numbers did *not* have 911 in them today?!  Conspiracy?
           \_ Do you understand how the New York State "Numbers" Lottery work?
              Three independent digits from 0-9 are drawn in order.  So the
              probablility of getting 9-1-1 is only 0.001.  Since there are two
              drawings every day, the odds of getting 9-1-1 on Sep. 11 is
              0.001999, or slightly less than 1 in 500.
                \_ yeah i know it's not that statisically improbably,
                   but it's still really spooky
                \_ how many other states have similar drawings?
                   \_ At least CA doesn't.  Besides, how many other states
                      were attacked on 9/11?
                      \_ Two.
                         \_ Exactly.
                \_ wowowoowow that's soooo amazing!  wowowowowowoow!  There
                   *must* be black helos and tin foil hats in there somewhere!
                   woowowowowowowowo!!!!  I can't get over it!
2002/9/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25847 Activity:high
9/11    http://www.msnbc.com/news/806174.asp?cp1=1 on Nelson Mandela saying
        the United States is a threat to world peace.  I gave up on the second
        line where it says "Sentenced to life in prison on desolate Robben
        Island...".  Yes he was held by the government but at least be honest
        about it; it was a palatial estate the likes of which I can never
        dream of affording.  I'd gladly give up my job and life here to be
        held captive at his former prison/estate.
        \_ would you really want to be captive in one spot for 25
           years?  not that I think mandela is the greatest, no one mentions
           that he used to be a terrorist.  granted, fighting the aparteid
           policies of south africa almost excused just about anything.
           his wife waited for him for 25 years, then he divorced
           her for some sweet young thing just as soon as he was
           released from jail. - danh
           \_ 25 years in paradise?  Would you turn down a ticket to Heaven
              for eternity too?  Don't forget all those burning tires around
              the necks of non-ANC blacks.
        \- from the pictures i have seen of his cell it didnt seem palatial.
           do you have a picture? being married to winnie mandela was probably
           a worse sentence. ok tnx.
           \_ He was held in confinement (yes, prison) not in a cell for most
              of the time on a gorgeous estate.  I saw pics in a magazine.
        \_ Other views around the world are similar:
           I had no idea the Koreans hated us that much. Anyone got a link
           to the video mentioned in the article?
           \_ http://koreawave.sohu.com/66/80/article201698066.shtml
           \_ OBYankeeGoHome!
2002/9/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25844 Activity:nil
9/11    Big power outage in Foster City right now.  Transformer blown up.
        Terrorist attack?
        \_ Foster city?  A power transformer?  Terrorism?  No.  Just standard
           lack of training and lowest bid practices.
        \_ Is there anything worth terrorizing in Foster City?
           \_ Isn't that where you can get cheap, tasty ice cream sundays?
           \_ I used to work there.  There wasn't even a decent burger joint.
              If Foster City was entirely destroyed I don't think anyone would
              really notice.
              \_ Burgers at Red Robin seem good.
                 \_ I don't know if it was there when I worked there.  I
                    would've killed for something as 'good' as red robin.
           \_ Foster City is in the landing path for SFO-bound flights.  Planes
              fly pretty low around there.
              \_ That's a big claim to fame and a good reason to blow up a
                 power transformer.  Uh yeah whatever.
        \_ my car broke down this morning. terrorist attack???
           \_ Was your car blown up?  Did it affect 3000 (according to PG&E)
2002/9/8 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25803 Activity:nil
9/7     A complete disgrace.
        School-sponsored 9-11 Remembrance Day to exclude
        patriotic symbols and religious references
2002/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25783 Activity:high
9/5     while some of you rally about memorializing 9/11, how about
        some thought for those killed in Munich at the 1972 Olympic
        Games 30 years ago?  2 killed on the morning of Sep 5 1972,
        9 more the next day Sep 6 1972.  11 athletes killed.
        \_ It's all fucked up.  Get a grip.
        \_ They were Jews.  Not even American Jews.
           \_ Sign your name, (coward|troll).
           \_ will somebody please think of the children!!!!!
              \_ Are they Jewish American children?  Do they vote and donate?
        \_ 2500+ dead and 85 billion in economic damage in NYC...
           not even close!  and anyway didn't the Mossad kill just
           \_ that's 2500+ third-world oppressing, environment despoiling,
              culturally hegemonistic, infidel american pigs.  they deserve
              to die.
           about everyone involved in the Munich attacks eventually?
           \_ Most didn't make it in the long term, yes.
              \_ over a long enough period of time everyone's chances
                 of survival drop to zero.
                 \_ Ok, tell you what, you go kill yourself now because hey,
                    over the long term your survival odds are zero anyway,
                    right?  I'll fly the plane with the gun toting pilot and
                    we'll both be happy.  So, you're a dormy, right?  This is
                    the kind of silly thing dormies would say in late night
                    drunken "debate" when discussing god, abortion, the death
                    penalty, and every other issue drunken dormies have
                    'solved' over the years.
                    \_ calm down.  it's a quote from Fight Club.
                        \_ why quote stupid lines from movies very few people
                           \_ because i find it amusing to watch people
                              like you get agitated.  please continue.
        \_ We don't care about them non-Americans, you damned terrorist!
        \_ ignoring ideology, how about looking at 1972 as
           an example of how complacency and media-attention combine
           to create a situation begging for exploitation by terrorists?
           \_ My God!  You've discovered the mastermind behind the Munich
              massacre!  It's Siebler!
2002/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25781 Activity:nil
9/5     http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/05/germany.osama
        Couple trying to name their son Osama bin Laden
        \_ Which just goes to show that stupidity is truly global.
2002/8/26 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:25698 Activity:high
8/26    Cool.  Now they're doing popularity polls re: terrorist groups and
        reporting it as straight news. The world has truly gone mad.
        http://csua.org/u/1af (urld has been here)
        \_ so...did you just recover from a coma, or what?  all the
           mainstream media is full of opinion polls reported as news.
2002/8/25 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:25678 Activity:high
8/25    http://web.lfw.org/jminc/Zilla/http://www.cnn.com
        \_ Ok so someone can figure out the one line of perl required to
           replace 99% of cnn's front page with "Zilla".  So?
           \_ Do Not Question Ping. Ping Is Leeter Than Thou. -ping #1 fan
           \_ i dunno. it's funnier at 1 am on a friday. there was also
              something kind of deep about the absurdification of the bin laden
              news but I forgot what it was.
        \_ Malkovich malkovich?
2002/5/28 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:24960 Activity:nil
5/28    What happened to all those conpiracy sites that claim that Pearl
        Harbor+911+SpanishAm War were gov sponsored? They don't seem to
        stay that long.
        \_ modern evidence points to the Maine as an accident
2002/5/26 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:24947 Activity:nil
5/25    Drugs, Russia and Terrorism
        Why We Didn't Listen to Golitsyn
2002/5/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:24857 Activity:nil
5/16    New Russian Weapons versus Old American arsenals
2002/5/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:24774 Activity:insanely high
5/9     what's the fucking point of not allowing people at the fucking gates
        in airports if you're not flying?
        \_ It keeps the terrorists away.
                \_ the same way those national guards do?
                   \_ No.  Don't be a stupid troll.  You know the difference.
        \_ It keeps the fucking terrorists away.
                           see what, if anything, the national guards
                           at the airport terminals can do.
        \_ So that there arent as many people trying to get through security.
           The delay as it is at the security is bad already.  The national
           guards, on the other hand.....
                           \_ Make people feel safer. Self delusion is your
                              friend. It's everyone's friend.
                           \_ This is not what was said.  What was said was
                              "not allowing people at the gates" vs "nat.
                              guard on bridges".  You get an "F".
                \_ the fucking same way those national guards do?
                   \_ No.  Don't be a stupid troll.  You know the fucking
                        \_ no, that was no troll. and I really don't
                           see what, if anything, the fucking national guards
                           at the fucking airport terminals can do.
                           \_ This is not what was said.  What was
                              said was "not allowing people at the
                              fucking gates" vs "nat.  guard on bridges".
                              You get a fucking "F".
        \_ Even though those fuckers allow only the fucking passengers
           in, sometimes on busy days, it takes me up to a fucking hour to
           get through! Can you imagine what'd happen if those fuckers
           also allowed people who are not flying inside too?
2002/5/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:24669 Activity:high
5/1     Jews try to burn Bethlehem Church, place of Jesus's birth, Waco
        \_ sounds like a terrorist bomb accidentalyly went off inside the church
        by one of the terrorist hiding in it.
        \_ sounds like a terrorist bomb accidentalyly went off inside the
           church by one of the terrorist hiding in it.
        \_ Terrorists hold holy site hostage for over a month.  The world
           doesn't seem to care.  Christians wonder how world would react if
           Jews occupied the Al-Aqsa mosque.
           \_ It's only a mosque. We've blown those up before.
        \_ the jews should get their temple back, blow up that sacriligeous
           mosque on top of the jewish temple.
           \_ Ah, another sign that the "Rapture(tm)" is nearing. The Jews
              controlling Jerusalem. That's why the conservative Christians
              are supporting Israel.
                \_ Except for a very minority of Christian kooks, that's
                   mostly the imagination of the Jewish media.
2002/3/28-29 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:24266 Activity:insanely high
3/28    So how many people believe the U.S. was involved in bringing
        down the WTC in order to create endless oilwar as well as blind
        flag waving/rights-waiving obeissance etc?
        \_ How many?  Only the stupid and the paranoid ones.  Count them up.
        \_ It was the Mossad.
           \_ you misspelled "yermom."
           \_ Sure, blame the Jews.  You know it was the ANC.
        \_ The US didn't do it, but knew it was going to happen
           and turned a blind eye to the possiblity:
           stunning the growing protests of globalization just before
           \_ Wouldn't be the first time that the TPTB overlooked
              an impending disaster (ex. FDR and Pearl Harbor)
              \_ or manufactured one (e.g., Tonkin Gulf, resulting
                 in U.S. entering the Vietnam War) -- the government
                 admits this openly now.
                 \_ USS Maine and the Spanish American War, USS Greer
                    and WWI, the list goes on.
                    \_ You mean USS Greer/WWII, right? What is odd
                       about that incident? UBoats sank quite a few US
                 \_ Greer was WWI. She was the first ship fired upon
                    by germans, but this was in self defense (the
                       destroyers before the US entry. Do you think they
                       were all hoaxes or something?
                       \_ Greer was WWI. She was the first navy ship fired
                          on by germans, but this was in self defense (the
                          Greer was depth charging the Uboat in question)
                          Wilson "forgot" that the Greer was under orders
                          to depth charge Uboats when we went before congress
                          and urged the US entry into WWI. It wasn't exactly
                          lying, but it was shady.
                          \_ http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-29.html
                             Maybe the same incident happened in both
                             wars with the same ship, but I kind of doubt
        \_ http://www.copvcia.com and http://www.emperors-clothes.com
        \_ don't forget masking the inevitable economic downturn and
           the stunning growing protests of globalization just before
           they IMF/WB went to WDC
           \_ yeah all those dotcommers outa work could cause a lot
              of hell if they identified the real problem
              \_ Actually this was a problem for most large corporations.
                 Once the supply of labor was getting short, costs went
                 up. When the dotcoms who couldn't outlast a yearlong
                 recession and died, the supply of labor shot up and
                 corporation costs have gone down.
        \_ Not that I'm discounting the theory, but why is there a
           conspiracy theory for every major event in history?  Next thing
           you know, the gov't conspired to bring the asteroid in to kill
           off the dinosaurs.
           \_ Cuz government by definition IS a conspiracy, one which is
              well-funded and controls who the "rules" apply to and which
              commits every action with social control and the maintaining
              power (gained via the conspiracy of government) as its
              paramount concern.  Off-the-shelf formulas are used frequently.
              \_ "by definition".  Uhm ok.  Whatever.  No cookie, troll.
           \_ The government bringing in asteroids to kill the dinosaurs?
              Nothing could be more absurd.  Everyone knows it was space
              aliens. -geordan
        \_ it was the gays. -rev. falwell
                \_ and we all know what a healthy lifestyle many of them lead.
2002/2/26-27 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23981 Activity:high
2/26    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&u=/nyt/20020226/ts_nyt/u_s__analysts_find_no_sign_bin_laden_had_nuclear_arms
        "The analysis ...... suggests, in fact, that Mr. bin Laden and Al
        Qaeda may have been duped by black-market weapons swindlers selling
        crude containers hand-painted with skulls and crossbones and dipped,
        perhaps, in medical waste to fool a Geiger counter, officials said."
        \_ Kind of old news but it's nice to see it confirmed.  BTW, anyone
           know how long weapon's grade material takes to degrade?  If someone
           stole X amount of nuke quality stuff in 1992, how much would they
           have left today and how much would it take to build a clean bomb?
        \_ He can't be *that* stupid, can he?  Maybe he's just trying to
           deceive us?
        \_ It's an old story.  This just confirms what was already a really
           good assumption from prior reports.
        \_ and then they could have just left the fake containers to let us
           *think* they were duped.  If it was the real thing, do you think
           they'd really have just abandoned it while they were melting into
           the mountains to fight again another day?
           \_ Nobody said it was the real thing.  What's your point?
           \_ And maybe they did that and we know they know we know and hey
              someone get out the cone of motd silence!  007 you're not, maybe
2002/2/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:23910 Activity:very high
2/19    http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/index.html
        Office of Strategic Influence or Office of Propoganda/Brainwashing?
        \_ Oh my god!  The government might not tell the truth!  This is truly
           shocking!  Do we also spend money on the Office of Correct Spelling?
           Not enough, apparently.
                \_ yeah but this is the sort of office it'd be better
                   not to publicize to people..just do it already,
                   but covertly.
2001/12/31 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:23411 Activity:nil
12/30   Why does the EPA, Department of Interior, the IRS,
        soon NASA, ... basically every branch of government
        have SWAT teams?
2001/12/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:23265 Activity:high 83%like:23257
12/15   http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011215-68264047.htm
        MOTD POLL:  Bin Laden will:
        Be found dead from combat injuries not old age (duh!):   .
        Be captured alive:
        Escape:              .
        Beat back the evil western hordes in the name of Allah: .
        \_ The Washington Times is one of the few newspapers worth reading.
           \_ Run by a bunch of Moonies, loved by paranoid Right Wingers. Great.
              You gotta love how the Republicans love to accuse others
              You gotta admire how the Republicans prefer to accuse others
              of what they do the most. Taking money from Asian religious
              leaders? How about the Moonie -> RNC connection, which
              has been going on for years. Oh, that right, it is only
              treason if a Democrat does it.
2001/12/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23261 Activity:nil
12/14   Al Qaeda Training Manual
        It was mentioned in an NY times article but not linked. I google'd
        it on usdoj.gov. Pretty interesting read about some of what the
        terrorists are learning/teaching.
2001/12/15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23257 Activity:high 83%like:23265 53%like:36311
12/15   http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011215-68264047.htm
        MOTD POLL:  Bin Laden will:
        Be found dead:   .
        \_ it may take 25 years, but everyone dies eventually.
        Be captured alive:
        Escape:              .
        Beat back the evil western hordes in the name of Allah: .
        \_ The Washington Times is one of the few newspapers worth reading.
2001/12/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23247 Activity:kinda low
12/14   I've missed the news lately.  What was the explanation on why bin Laden
        made that videotape that looked like a meeting and left behind all
        the evidence in it?
        \_ Because he's EVUUUUL I tell you, EVUUUUL!
2001/12/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Recreation/Celebrity/BritneySpears] UID:23235 Activity:nil
12/12   Osama bin Laden has displaced
  Pamela Lee Anderson in cyberspace
  and people looking for information about
  the American flag outnumbered those
  curious about Britney Spears. For the
  first time in the short history of the
  Internet, popular search engines report
  that "sex" dropped off their lists of top
  10 search terms in the days following
  the attacks on the World Trade Center
  and Pentagon. (Reuters, Sep. 20 '01)
        \_ Why is this being posted now?
        \_ URL please?
        \_ "popular search engines".  Which ones?  Stop posting techie stuff
           from idiotic non-techie sources like Reuters.  That's like going to
           slashdot to get legal info or political news.
2001/12/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Religion] UID:23211 Activity:insanely high
12/10   What is the big deal with John Walker?
        \_ When you grow up in America and are taught/shown/experience why
           secular govt, freedom of religion, (classical) liberalism, and
           capitalism (i.e. "consumerism") are actually good things, someone
           who attends terrorist camps and shoots at Americans is fucking
           annoying and a traitor to the blessings he was born with.
           \_ You've made my point, from the opposing point of view, better
              than I could have myself.
                \_ You're too smart for me.  Could you say that again using
                   common simple grammatical structure a 5th grader could
           \_ Plus he's white.
              \_ yes, that's why it's being made into a big deal.
                \_ If he was anything but Arab it would have been a big deal.
                   How much bigger a deal would it have been if his ancestors
                   were from, oh... say... Japan?  Get over the hate-whitey
                   \_ Actually, if he were an American of Arab descent,
                      i think it would be an even bigger deal.
                        \_ I disagree.  It's the photos of a pale disheveled
                           white guy that made the news.  If it was an
                           american of arab descent, we would just call him
                           an muslim who happened to speak english and spent
                           time in the states.
2001/11/15 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:23050 Activity:nil
11/15   man take your sick anti-loyal trash to North Korea.
        stupid so-called 'conscience objectors" like you should try
        living there and see if you can produce this kind of self-
        destructive thought. (Voluntarily decline supporting your
        own military?!?) It sickens me that sickos like you are
        protected by the 1st Amendment.
        \_ "Love it or leave it" and "My country right or wrong".  Your
           opinions are invalid.  Man take your sick fanatic nationalist
           trash to North Dakota.  Jesus H. Christ, man, please get
           a fucking clue.  -John
        \_ good point! you tell 'em!
        \_ Not to defend the other guy (I missed what he said anyway), but
           what you're trying to say is, 1st Amendment is good as long as
           you're patriotic and you don't voice a dissenting opinion.
        \_ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1657000/1657368.stm
           Mullah Omar notes a larger plan for the destruction of America.
           He says, with God's help, this will occur in a short period of time.
           He asks you keep in mind this prediction.
           \_ Sort of like Nostradomus.
           \_ Sort of like Osama.
        \_ I dug up the original post from the archives.  It was the standard
           anti-war protester meeting from the usual suspects.  I don't see
           why it got this big response or what NK has to do with it.
2001/11/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris, Industry/Startup] UID:23017 Activity:nil
11/12   America's most hated man: Osama bin Laden
        America's most hated woman: Carly Fiorina
        \_ why is Carly a bitch? Explain...
           \_ and why is she getting more flak than, say, McNealy. I mean,
              her company is still in the black, unlike Scotty.
              \_ Because McNealy hasn't done anything nearly as stupid as
                 attempting to buy out Compaq.
              \_ Strong women are always hated by weak men.
                   \_ Here comes the feminazi crowd.  No, dear one, when she
                      first got the job, everyone in industry applauded.  Now
                      that she's fighting hard to destroy the same company,
                      everyone is coming down on her.  Welcome to the real
                      world of meritocracy: good stuff for doing good, bad
                      stuff for doing bad.  I think you can understand that.
                      Pick up a newspaper and put down the psycho babble
                      pseudo literature.  You'll learn more from the business
                      \_ Don't lie, you always hated her.
                         \_ No I had barely heard of her before she took over
                            but since I wasn't a shareholder I didn't care. I
                            _do_ recognise that her takeover plans are idiotic
                            and it has nothing to do with her gender.
                      \_ As an employee, I strongly sided with her in the
                         first year. She seemed to be making the right moves
                         and morale climbed. Now, well, it feels pretty shitty
                         around here.
                \_ BC she's working at hard as she can to destroy the company?
                   \_ Second that.  Compaq is the company of death.
2001/11/12-13 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23012 Activity:very high
11/12   http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml
        For those who still think he didn't admit to anything and the US needs
        "proof" of something.
        \_ How convenient.  It's not there.
           \_ Works fine for me.     -mice
           \_ IE takes awhile to render the page.  give it a minute.
           \_ Yes, I fabricated a bad link to prove something.  Me and Elvis
              (from his spaceship) and the CIA are in cahoots to fool you by
              posting bad links.  It's there.
2001/11/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23004 Activity:high 50%like:22386
11/12   check news sources.  mysterious nyc plane crash.  no useful data.
        \_ Who would want to blow up a flight to the Domnican Republic?
          \_ It's not where it's going.  It's the fuel it's carrying.
                \_ Woah, don't make such assumptions just yet.
             \_ And to crash it into a house? Mmmmkay.
                \_ The one that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11 crashed into
                   the middle of nowhere too.
                   \_ Well, the flight controllers said there were no
                      unusual communications (or lack of) at all, unlike the
                      the three planes on 911.
        \_ Since all the parts are on the ground somewhere, it'll take a few
           days or maybe weeks but they've got everything they need to figure
           out if it was a bomb or simple mechanical error or whatever.
2001/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:23001 Activity:very high
11/10   BBC reports bin laden admits 9/11 bombings. threatens to use
        nuclear device or chemical weapons on silicon valley 11/13
        \_ in the 1950's poeple observed that one good aspect of
           sprawl is it's resistance to nuclear attack.  If you
           look at kill radii of different nuclear weapons and look
           at a map of silicon vally, you will see that they could
           only make the smallest of dents, at least in the short term.
        \_ why the hell would they blow up silicon valley. We don't even
           supply weapons. LA (Boeing, Lockheed, Loral, Rockwell, etc)
           should be one that deserves to be blown up, not us.
                \_ Lots of military contractors in the Valley, plus it's
                   the center of recent American capitalism
           \_ and how were the WTC towers military targets?
           \_ sorry, he said california, not specifically sv
        \_ URL?
           \_ Can't find it on bbc or cnn.  Silicon Valley has an
              overinflated sense of importance.
              \_ That may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that BL sp
                 threatened to nuke/gas SV "if the US does it first".
                 I've found a couple articles on ABC that mention it, and
                 a detailed article on CNN.  It's not that hard to find.
                 \_ where does bin laden ever claim responsibility for the
                    9/11 attacks?
                    \_ STFW
                       \_ I did STFW, and the latest piece of news I saw on the
                          subject was a recent interview where he, yet again,
                          denies any involvement.
                          \_ Indeed. He denies involvement and we have
                             produced no evidence of it. Trust the
                             government, they know what is best for you.
                             \_ Nah, I d rather trust some muslim nutcase.
                 \_ url???
2001/11/9-10 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22996 Activity:high
11/9    When the Taliban asked to see the evidence of bin Laden's guilt,
        why did our gov't refuse?
        \_ becuase when Clinton gave evidence that was very clear, they
        just shrugged it off. (the african embassy bombings)
           \_ yes, they said there's nothing they can do since he is there guest
              \_ Any good links to this? I want to read more about it.
                        \_ http://www.google.com  It's everywhere.
        \_ what's wrong with you? are you pro-taliban or something? the
           taliban has no intension to turn over bin laden. so why do we bother
           give them hard evidence?  besides, bin laden is wanted even before
           911. U.S. has to take military action.  Do you think you can sit
           there and tell the terrorists to submit themselves?  One good example
           is the bible has been around and preached for thousands of years,
           there are still terrorists.  So those who oppose the U.S. action
           suggest us just sit around and forget 911 ever happened?
        \_ Because the US has no proof. This whole thing was cooked up by
           the CIA to keep Bush in power in strengthen their role.
           \_ And the CIA and Bigfoot are in cahoots with Castro and Elvis
              from his space ship to take over the world!
        \_ Our leaders want to get some "quick results", and they have
           faith in our vastly superior military prowess to attain it.
           Only capturing or killing Bin Laden ourselves is satisfying
           enough.  Bin Laden ending up in some Taliban negotiated
           international court just doesn't cut it.  They want a total
           victory and infinite justice, to hell with a few collaterally
           damaged human lives or a little starvation in Afghanistan.
           \_ They weren't going to turn him over then, now, or ever to anyone.
              \_ How would you know?  The Taliban may be harsh and fanatic,
                 but they are not unprincipled.  That's why they stopped
                 opium growing in Afghanistan in spite of the fact that it
                 earned the country a lot of money.  Khaddafi (spelling?)
                 gave up the terrorist who bombed a British plane.
2001/11/2 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22903 Activity:high
11/1    Gov. Davis warns major Calif. bridges may be targeted next.
        \_ Davis wants the terrorists to bomb the bridges so that
           he can get free air time like Guillian (sp?) did.
           \_ "Giuliani".  I recited the spelling several times before I could
              remember it.
           \_ Yes, and it was the Jews who bombed the WTC.
              \_ You know, a WHOLE LOT of people actually believe that.
                 \_ Conspiracy theory?
        \_ could the terrorist change target easily ... like head the
           plane to the Berkeley campus?
           \_  why would they? berkeley is on the terrorists side.
           \_ obviously, there can be no nuclear terrorism in berkeley,
              because of the "nuclear free zone" signs.  we just need
              to put up "terrorist free zone" signs as well.  i'm sure
              the city council is voting on it right now.
           \_ Not planes, large hazardous materials trucks!
              \_ Beware of abandoned rental trucks!
           \_ Berkeley profs/students are not worth killing. They're just
              a bunch of Linux/bike-riding/ultra-lefty phreaks. All talk
              & protest-- no action.
              \_ Furthermore, Berkeley is anti-military-retaliation regarding
                 9/11, so the Taliban probably even want to keep them alive.
                 \_ Whereas God-fearing American think all Berkeleyannis should
                    be dragged into some street and cluster-bomb-fucked.
             \_ that's my point.  Why only the bridges?  If they want
                to just attack, there are so many alternatives if the
                terrorists simply wants to strike terror. I fail to
                see what Davis is trying to do.  Shouldn't he just
                catch those terrorists to prevent the attack?  Assuming
                that he can't, he is telling the terrorists to change
                On one hand, we have Ashcroft (sp?) saying terrorists
                activities are coming but he can't let us know details,
                and on the other hand the Governor of California says he
                knows where the terrorists are coming and are warning us (and
                warning the terrorists to strike a different target).  Does
                anyone else feel there is an irony here?  Unless our
                government feel that the terrorist are dumber than they are.
                \_ If catching the terrorists was that easy, he'd have done it
                   by now and wouldn't bother with announcing a threat.
        \_ Davis just wants some of the attention.
           \_ Comments like this are why the motd continues to be content free.
              \_ Comments like this are why you should go away.
2001/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:22854 Activity:high
10/28   Doesn't get much better than this...
        \_ Someone who takes that long obviously doesn't have a point to make.
                \_ Can you identify any errors in what Rep. Barr says?
        \_ can you say filibuster?
2001/10/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic] UID:22753 Activity:high
10/16   There's an old saying: A conservative is a liberal who's
        been mugged. Well, a hawk is a liberal who's been targeted
        for death by al Qaeda.
        \_ Well no.  A liberal that's been targeted for death by a terrorist
           group is just a dead liberal.
        \_ A liberal is a conservative who has lost $1M in the bubble.
                \_ Yeah investing in the market between 96 and 2001 was
                   strictly limited by political affiliation.
                   \_ Yeah, like breaking everyone's political affiliation
                      into one of two groups is any less stupid.
2001/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22722 Activity:nil
10/12   Stop bothering me!  I am NOT a terrorist!
        \_ trial by fire!
        \_ Prove it!
        \_ Let's tie a boulder to your penis and drop you in the ocean. If
           you're a terrorist, you should be able to escape. If not, well,
           sorry about the misunderstanding.
           \_ There is an implicit assumption in this statement...
              \_ Ever read about the witchhunts?
        \_ if you're not a terrorist, then prove it by naming someone
           else on the system who is one.
        \_ J'accuse!
        \_ evil-doer => liar!
        \_ Trial by cross!
2001/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22719 Activity:nil 57%like:22470
10/12   Bin Laden uses PayPal!!! News at 11.
2001/10/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:22715 Activity:nil
10/12   "Bush Freezes More Terror Assets"
        What's the use of globally freezing $24M, not all of which being
        bin Laden's money, when bin Laden personally owns $300M?
        \_ Because he isn't carrying it in his wallet and it isn't in a
           single Wells Fargo account with his name on it.
           \_ Don't you know he keeps it under his mattress. That is
              until the taliban completes construction of his money
2001/10/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:22668 Activity:low
10/8    Second case of anthrax in Florida, this time near where Mohammed
        Atta lived. News at 11.
        \_Both worked for the National Enquirer and Sun (and had recent
          contact with "Batboy" presumably).
2001/9/23 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22598 Activity:very high
9/20    Who wants to start a "what day does the bombing begin" pool?
        \_ That was one of the most fun things we did in the coop, for the
           Haiti invasion (until Carter fuffed it for everyone.)  If only
           for all the self-righteous cave people it pissed off.  -John
        \_ Yeah, now I see why www access to motd.public was removed.
           \_ eh? whatchew smokin fool?
              \_ crack.  lots and lots of crack.
           \_ Now, if I had said "who wants to start a 'how many civilian
              casualties will the US cause in its bombing campaign' pool?"
              you might have a point. But I did not.
        \_ http://www.debka.com
        \_ I don't think you'll see the sort of bombing you're looking for.
           I think this is going to be like a new Cold War.  This time the
           opposing philosophy is a twisted version of extremist Islam.  Last
           time it was communism.  In 10 to 15 years after the fundamentalist
           muslims are crushed and their children are listening to the latest
           off the Top 40 charts, we'll have a few years of peace before some
           one else steps up to the plate to take a swing.  It's the price of
                \_ Maybe the fundamentalists are right about us being the
                   \_ Maybe?  So you think a bunch of civilian killing, zero
                      freedom dictatorships are morally superior to a
                      democratically elected most-free market economy with a
                                             \_ I read that as motd-free.
                      free press, open travel for citizens, the right to
                      criticise the government without fear of death or
                      imprisonment?  You're either a troll or insane.
                      \_ I vote for "joking"
        \_ how about "Which U.S. city gets nuked first?"
           \_ I'll take that bet.  My answer: none.  A little anthrax crop
              dusting through a few east bay districts would wake a up a few
              people though.  Those that survived....
2001/9/22 [Politics/Domestic/911, Transportation/Airplane] UID:22586 Activity:moderate
9/21    http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/gen.airlines.arabs.removed
        \_ Idiot Americans ask innocent people to leave airplanes because
           they are perceived to be Middle Easterners. Get a fucking
           clue, people.
           \_ As opposed to idiot Middle Easterners killing innocent
              people with airplanes because they are perceived to be
                \_ zing
           \_ sigh. of course you know, radical German terrorists
              or perhaps even militia members will have a field day
              (no one will be watching them).
              \_ radical German terrorists? who are they and what do they want?
                \_ didn't you see lebowski? they're nihilists!
                   they want NOTHING!
                   \_ hey man....nice ferret.
                        \_ The Dude abides, man. The Dude abides.
2001/9/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22578 Activity:kinda low
9/21    I heard rumors that some of the arrested terrorist suspects also bought
        air tickets for 9/22.  Does nyone read aobut this in news articles?  I
        searched in Yahoo News but didn't find anything.  Thx.
        \_ that was for the return flight.
           \_ But I heard those already died bought one-way tickets.
2001/9/21 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22562 Activity:high
9/20    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010920/us/attacks_cybertrail_1.html
        CIA used to keep track of bin Laden by voiceprint and sat phone.
        \_That's not news. Even Osama knows about it. That's why he stopped
          using most forms of modern communication. There was an article
          at http://cnn.com that mentioned that these days he communicates with people
          by exchanding floppy disks with encypted data on them.
2001/9/19 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22531 Activity:nil
9/19    http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/19/gen.hate.crimes
        Your average redneck out looking to beat up someone can't tell the
        difference between Indians and Arabs.  Especially Sikhs.
        \_ Aw man. As a redneck looking to beat up people, I'm embarassed now.
2001/9/19 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22529 Activity:high
9/19    There is a country that harbors terrorists. The terrorists
        plant bombs killing innocent people for radical religious
        beliefs. Within that country there are even debates about
        the truthfullness of these religious beliefs. We need to
        fight a war on terrorism... Is the country Afghanistan
        and the terrorists Osama-following Muslims? No, its the US
        and the terrorists are extreme pro-lifers. Kind of ironic
        how Jerry Faldwell claims in both cases that the abortion-
        ists brought it upon themselves.                - rory
        \_ separate the pro-lifers who are peaceful vs. the pro-lifers
           who do violence.  The violent ones are a very small minority
           and do not represent the mainstream pro-lifer who are peaceful.
           You are stereotyping and prejudging.  You have the sort of
           attititudes that we are trying to fight in this present time.
           The US does try to convict anyone who does violence such as
           bombing abortion clinics.
           The real violence (which does include the terrorist attacks
           on the WTC) includes the legalized lethal violence against unborn
           men and women of America.  We condone violence against our own,
           including those who are the most vulnerable, innocent, and need
           our protection the most.
                \_ Watch out.. any messages that don't tow the
                   Party line get censored.  Free speech only
                   for libs.
                   \_ It's "toe the line" you ignorant boor.
           \_ Clearly you have the attitudes we are trying to fight in this
              time by not being able to see the symmetry in this situation.
              Fine, I agree that violent pro-lifers are a small minority...
              But you, and most other Americans it seems, need to realize
              that violent terrorists are a very small minority in countries
              that violent terrorists are very small minorities in
        \_ a more apt example would be the Klu Klux Klan, which we
              like Afghanistan... my point.
              \_ I agree that terrorists are a minority in ANY country.
                 Be careful how you characterize certain groups though.
                \_ and thus, it is as ridiculous to talk about bombing parts
                   of the US to get abortion terrorists as it is to talk
                   about "attacking Afghanistan" to get WTC terrorists.
                   ... at least, it should be.
              \_ I recall the Blank Panthers once wrote a letter to the City of
                   \_ The US government doesn't harbor abortion clinic bombers.
                      Note the difference and try again.
                   \_ we'll see how the military/political/economic campaign
                        turns out.  For all you know, it is just rhetoric.
                        Its all speculation right now.
        \_ a more apt example would be the Ku Klux Klan, which we
        \_ a more apt example would be the Klu Klux Klan, which we
           haven't managed to stamp out entirely, but whose terrorist
           activities have been curtailed.  unfortunately they continue
           to spew hate which feeds into similar groups in other countries,
           like the neo-nazis in europe.
           \_ doesn't the first amendment protect the KKK's speech
              (as opposed to KKK's violence)?  I'm not trying
           \_ doesn't the first amendment protect the KKK?  I'm not trying
                to go against you.  Just asking people.
              \_ I recall the Black Panthers once wrote a letter to the City of
              \_ I recall the Blank Panthers once wrote a letter to the City of
                 New York to support KKK's rights of free speech a year or two
              \_ yes, and it is a fine line between speech and conspiracy
                 to commit violence.  i hope we can maintain the balance
                 of our principles in the current case.
           \_ Klu? Or lack thereof. It's "KU" not "KLU". -ali
              \_ fixed.  amazing i spelled the rest ok that early in the AM.
           \_ The KKK is essentially dead in this country.  At best they're
              just another fringe group with a bad website.
           who do violence.  The violent ones are a small minority.
           You are stereotyping, the sort of things which get people in
           trouble in this society.
2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Security] UID:22507 Activity:insanely high
9/18    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7215723.html?tag=mn_hd
        " U.S. citizens back encryption controls "
        Right, only American companies can write encryption code/product,
        and the intelligence failure to warn the attack is due to, or partly
        due to encryption products!  Classical "not my fault" syndrome.
        Let's ban commercial airlines because their planes are used in the
        attack.  Let's ban all knives because they are used in the attack.
        \_ lets ban all people because they were used in the attack.
           \_ Let's ban religion. religion is the root of the Northern Ireland
                                  \_ Try economics.  There's not much that
                                     was ever perpetrated solely because of
                                     religion.  People aren't that pious,
                                     no matter what they may say.
              conflict, Palestine, Pakistan/India, and various historical
              atrocities. Not to mention the Holocaust, Cyprus, Kosovo, etc.
              That's the one thing I didn't mind about China and USSR.
              Freedom FROM religion.
              I guess I don't mind Buddhists. They never slaughter anyone.
              (right? i'd be interested to learn otherwise.)
              \_ Tibetan Buddhism was the state religion of the Mongol Khans,
              \_ Tibetan Buddhism was the state religion of the the Mongol Khans,
                 possibly the most murderous forces in known history. Zen
                 Buddhism, as connected with Imperial Shinto during the
                 years leading up to the Japanese expansion, was part and parcel
                 with the philosophy that guided that set of warriors.
                 \_ So is there such a thing as a religion that doesn't have
                    significant blood on its hand?
                    \_ Quakers?
                 \_ Well, I see that as just being their personal philosophy,
                    and not something that actively caused strife. I mean, I
                    don't think they cared what religion other people were when
                    they were conquering them, they just wanted to conquer them.
                    That's good, honest conquest. They weren't haters.
                 \_ Imperial Shinto?  Zen Buddhism is very different from Shinto.
                    What is your source?
              \_ The Shaolin monks in ancient China once fought for an emperor
                 in the Tang dynasty against rebels in the region.  I think in
                 return the emperor gave the Shaolin temples exclusive rights
                 among all Buddist temples to openly practise martial arts, or
                 something like that.  But that you can say they fought for a
                 good cause.
                 in the Tang dynasty against rebels in the region.  But that
                 you can say they fought for a good cause.
                 \_ yeah, nothing wrong with that. no hatred, no frothy fervor.
        \_ lets ban the internet in the US!
              I guess I don't mind Buddhists and Hindus. They never slaughter
              I guess I don't mind Pengiuns. They never slaughter anyone.
                    That's good, honest conquest.
2001/9/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:22499 Activity:insanely high
9/17    A word from the next generation.  Berkeley HS students speak:
        \_ Ahh, the virtues of the modern PC public school system,
           teaching our youth first and foremost to be victims and
           teaching first and foremost our youth to be victims and
           dependent on the federal government.
           \_ Nah, they're just too young to understand the seriousness
              of it all.  It's the self-centeredness that hits most
              teenagers at some point in their lives.
              \_ Yup.  Wait till their sweetie boyfriends/girlfriends are
                 killed by terrorists and then see what they say.  It's
              place without 5 billion people).
                \_ so much for the belief that all men are created equal.  Guess
                   those 5 billion people are less equal?
                 depressing to see how self-centered teenages are these days.
                 I have cousins in a top-rank high school, and they drive me
                 I have cousins in a top-rank high school, and their lack of
                 concern on others drives me crazy.
                 killed by terrorists and then see what they say.
           \_ aah the virutes of cointelpro.  tell me, do you really
              believe, that you could prove, in a court of law, that
              afghanistan is responsible?  Will the surrender of
              afghanistan stop terrorism?
              (caveat; but then again the world would be a better
              place without 6 billion people).
                   \- this is kind of the ultimate in ratcheting --psb
              place without 5 billion people).
                \_ so much for the belief that all men are created equal.  Guess
                   those 5 billion people are less equal?
                   \_ i think the total world's population is 5 billion.
                      \_ World population is 6B. There are 1B muslims.
                   \- this is kind of the ultimate in ratcheting --psb
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36321 Activity:nil
9/17    Someone posted a very informative link about bin laden including
        where he was last known to be, etc.  I thought i book-marked it
        but... Anyway.  Would anyone who has it please repost.  thanks.
        \_ maybe http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36318 Activity:nil
9/17    I've been reading news stories from 1998 that say that bin Laden is
        suspected to have major ties to gum arabic companies in Sudan. (Gum
        arabic is an ingredient in many colas and candies.) Anybody know
        anything more about this?  Do we still have an embargo on Sudan?  If
        so, from where do we get our gum arabic?
        \_ Sudan, smuggling.  Quit eating candy, you arab terrorist
           commie bastard.  -John
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36312 Activity:nil 52%like:36311
9/17    Osama bin Laden will be released to the U.S. ...

        In less than a month: .
        When Allied forces have arrived:
        Never / he'll be killed first:
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36311 Activity:nil 53%like:23257 52%like:36312
9/17    MOTD POLL:  Osama bin Laden will be released to the U.S. ...

        In less than a month: .
        When Allied forces have arrived:
        Never / he'll be killed first:  ...
              \_ Obviously this is the division operator!
        \_ These are two different things.  Never != killed.  I wonder how
           long he can go without getting caught.  It's been years already
           although there hasn't been a huge effort to nab him.  Also, I read
           he has has some sort of liver/kidney(?) problems so he might just
           keel over on his own anyway.
           \_ he's a hypochondriac and not actualy sick.  he has a doctor in
              his possee too (according to the cia blurb on msnbc)
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22493 Activity:high
9/17    Question: To those of you opposed to various military actions, what
        do you propose the US do?  I understand the objection(s) to military
        response.  I'm not debating that.  What action(s) do you propose we
        take instead?  I'm looking for serious responses.  Please, I'm not
        looking for answers in the negative as to what we shouldn't do.  I
        honestly want to know what you think we should be doing, if anything.
        Concrete stuff, not simply "follow international law" and other
        fuzzy stuff like that.  Thanks.
        \_ my position on the subject is that "war" is completely the wrong
           concept to invoke because it's an extremely loaded word with
           lots of consequences. i think what you want is to ARREST the
           group of international bandits using whatever means necessary.
           war is an overraction. this was not an act of war. this was
           a criminal murder. you need two nations for war, with citizens
           and soldiers. what you have is a bunch of renegades. Go arrest
           them and all this anger will be dealt with properly. -ali
           \_ But most of these renegades have support from one of a variety
              of middle eastern nations.  arresting a specific group may
              eliminiate one cell, but it does not solve the problem -- as
              long as the support is there, the terrorists will continue to
              exist.  If someone is harboring a criminal, they implicitly
              become accomplices; if a national entity is harboring these
              criminals....what do you suggest?  Asking nicely hasn't turned
              up any real results thus far, and violating another nation's
              sovereignity is an act of war...        -mice
              sovereignity (crossing their borders w/o permission to make an
              arrest) is an act of war...        -mice
              \_ Most of them come from saudialabia and uae, whose
                 dictatorship governments are very friendly to us.  Doesn't
                 that tell u something?
                 \_ Yes, that you're not very well informed.
        \_ nuke pakistan
           \_ Pakistan appears to be cooperating.  Why do you want to nuke a
              potential ally in the area which likely has intelligence
              information on bin Laden?
        \_ let's do the aghgan people a favor and take out the taliban.
           they are oppressive even to their own kind. no nukes just invade
           and set up a new government and hand it over to saudi arabia or
           or india.
            \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for
               the afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still
               it's a good cause.  However do not hand it over to
               banana republics like saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to
               banana republics like saudialabia or indo, but hand it to
               UK or Japan.
               \_ yah. hand it over to the gaps of the world, or the old navies
           \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for the
              afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still it's a good
              cause.  However do not hand it over to banana republics like
              saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to UK or Japan.
           \_ oh yeah, cool... let's overthrow another gov't like we tried
              to do in Nicaragua, etc.
           \_ If the Taliban is harboring terrorists, then that's precisely what
              we will do.
        \_ I think we need to bomb a few random deserted place in Afghanistan
           without killing civilians just to show that we are committed to
           military retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           mility retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           Laden, but it'll settle national anger and keep our face.  After
           that, pump all the resources into CIA and do the real work of
           getting bin Laden and destroying the terrorist network.  We need to
           revise the ban on CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating
           whether or not CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It
           just happens to be the agency we have at this moment.)
           just happens to be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ Moron.  Many terrorist camps are near civilian settlements.  Why
              kill off people who are innocent bystanders and could tell is
              where the bad guys are?
        \_ Change US policy over time to not support Israel? Not something
           I believe, but maybe others do.
           \_ Doesn't this just "reward" the terrorists for their actions by
              giving them what they want?  How would this discourage further
              violence against us to further shift our policy until our policy
              becomes whatever they want because we fear them?
              \_ Yeah, I think so... I agree with the previous poster's
                 statement though... I think we need to get Osama et. al.
                 through diplomacy, intelligence, etc and additionally
                 evaluate our actions that were creating this climate of
                 terrorism (eg stop giving money to Israel).
              \_ You can't think that way. That's the attitude of a brat who
                 refuses to stop doing something because his pride won't let
                 him admit he was wrong. IF something is wrong for us we should
                 stop. Such as our own support of terrorism in the past, and
                 Israel's support of of terrorism in the past...read up on what
                 they were doing to get the British out.
                 \_ Get the British out of where?
                    \_ Israel. Duh. King David hotel, Semiramis hotel (bombing
                       leading to collapse of building). Other stuff like:
                       It's hard to find objective sources on any of it though.
                 \_ Sure I can think that way.  Here's another way to think
                    of it: the nagging brat who screams until his mother gives
                    in to his demand for the new power ranger toy.  Then he
                    wants the other ones.  So he screams.  Then he wants a
                    bigger cookie, then another cookie, then no curfew or
                    bedtime, then he wants....  When does it stop?  If mom
                    had punished his poor behavior (the screaming) at stage
                    one, then the lack of reward would, in time, cease his
                    screaming fits.  How's that for an alternative line of
                    thought on the psychology of children and terrorists?
                    \_ I said "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG FOR US." Dimwit. Demanding
                       cookies isn't a valid analogy for any case of terrorism
                       I can think of.
           \_ What do we get out of supporting Israel?
           \_ We need to get little boy Yasser and little boy Sharon
              together and keep spanking their arses until they agree to
              stop their bitch fight.  Aren't the Arabs and Jews fucking
              relatives?  Don't understand why we should be suffering for
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the
              whole world.
           just to show that we are committed to mility retaliation.  This
           won't actually do anything to get us bin Laden, but it'll settle
           national anger and keep our "face".  After that, pump all the
           resources into CIA and do the real work of getting bin Laden and
           destroying the terrorist network.  We need to revise the ban on
           CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating whether or not
           CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It just happens to
           be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ it's a war, if we don't do anything to take out a government that
           hides behind a terrorist group then we are inviting nations to create
           terrorist groups (but really working for their government's interests)
           where their government can easily detach themselves but in actuality
           they support them. We have to show this is B.S. and any nation that
           harbors terrorist is using this terrorist group as their own weapon
              their darn family feud.
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the whole
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22489 Activity:high
9/16    "The deputy secretary of state, Paul Wolfowitz, said that 'the whole
        civilised world has been shocked... and even portions of the
        uncivilised world have started to wonder whether they're on the
        wrong side.'"
        \_ url?
           \_ http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html
        \_ While you're at the guardian, read this too:
        \_ Why do you keep posting garbage from the guardian.  Let me give
           the guardian exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
           the Guardian's exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
           and 'repressed' people are good.  Now let me ramble
           on about some socialist utopia because I like to hear
           myself talk."
           the Guardian's exegesis:
             "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians and 'repressed'
              people are good.  Now let me ramble on about some socialist
              utopia because I like to hear myself talk."
             [ reformatted - motd formatting daemon ]
           Except these are the same fucks that thrive in a society
           protected by the post WWII 'dirty' foreign policy of the US.
           They offer no plausible alternative (because there
           are very few), they just critisize.
           are very few), they just criticize.
           are very few), they just criticize.  For what its worth,
           even the Quaran acknowledges Jews have a right to live
           in Canaan (Isreal).
           They offer no plausible alternative (because there are very few),
           they just criticize.  For what its worth, even the Quaran
           acknowledges Jews have a right to live in Canaan (Isreal).
                \_ You're an idiot.
                  \_I reciprocate the sentiment petulant traitorous twit.
           \_ Hi racist Jew! You've been causing quite the ruckus lately.
                \_ So you deny the Quaran and Bible grant Canaan to Jews
                   and Arabia to the Muslims.  BTW I love Buchanan.
                   and Arabia to the Muslims.  BTW I'm a Buchanan fan.
           \_ These postings are interesting because the offer a different
              perspective than the mainstraim American press has offered so
              perspective than what the mainstraim American press has offered so
              far. As for the British, I think they would differ with your
              assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the USj
              assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the US
              during WWII. -payam
                \_ I said Guardian not British subjects.
                   \_ I think the Guardian would beg to differ also. -payam
             \_ No different than what you can find in the slightly-out-of-
                 mainstream American press like Salon, etc.  What bothers me
                 about many of these types of articles is how the authors try
                 to throw in *every* *single* *thing* they don't like about the
                 US into the mix: Nicaragua/the Contras; US non-ratification
                 of the Kyoto treaty; walking out of the hijacked Durban
                 racism conference; "well, garwsh, that just proves all that
                 money we spent on missle defense sure was a waste, wasn't
                 it?"  I knew that US activities abroad were often shameful,
                 bloody, and contradictory *before* the WTC bombing, thanks.
                 I don't need some snide European (or a snide wannabe-
                 European) writing condescending articles about what he
                 *thinks* I don't know right now.  Still, if people want to
                 write articles on how US policy in the Middle East has
                 contributed to terrorism, that's their right.  But when so-
                 called "journalists" use the deaths of 5,000 people to poke
                 sticks at America for every pet cause under the sun, that's
                 shameless, crass opportunism.  I don't think that bin Laden
                 struck last week because he was upset about us not ratifying
                 the Kyoto treaty.
           \_ Why don't you think about these pictures while you read these
              these articles
                 \_ while the Kyoto protocol may not have anything to do with
                    the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that it shows
                    how US foreign polic
                 \_ While the Kyoto protocol may not have had anything to do
                    with the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that
                    it shows how the US believes it can "go it alone" on
                    anything.  Of course, if there's something we want to
                    do, we twist everyone else's arm to join our side or
                    suffer crossing the world's last "superpower."
        \_ I hope by "uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
           whole Islamic or Arab world.
        \_ I hope by "the uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
           whole Islamic world or the whole Arab world.
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22488 Activity:high
9/16    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/16/1647231
        How to defend your privacy and freedom -- and why you need to do this
        TODAY. Deadline: next Friday.
        \_ how should I send my letter?  I know e-mail seems more impersonal
           than snail mailed letters.  what about faxes?  I assume that the
           USPS is not back to full operating capacity.
        \_ should I fax or snail mail my letter?  I assume that the post office
           isn't back to full capacity yet.
           \_ (USPS ~= Faxes) >> email.  For some Senators/Reps, USPS==Fax.
              Most folks in Congress aren't very technically clued, and don't
              give nearly as much weight to email as something that actually
              comes in on paper.  If you can actually get your Congress Person
              on the phone, or make an appointment at their local office,
              that's even better.  Probably the best way to do this is to
              request that they schedule a phone conference or meeting in a
              letter sent by mail or fax.
              letter sent by mail or fax.  As the poster above indicated, USPS
              is probably right out if it needs to get there RSN, so fax.  If
              you don't own a fax, most copy shops will let you fax things for
              $0.50-$1.00 per page. -dans
           \_ Dan's assesment of USPS/faxes is right. A personal phone call is
              better than either. If possible, a personal visit to their office
              in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from talking
              to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf
           \_ Dan's assesment of email vs snailmail/faxes is right. A personal
              phone call is better than either. If possible, a personal visit to
              their office in CA or DC is even better. This assessment coming from
              talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alexf
              talking to someone who once worked as a congressional aide. -alex
              \- congresspeople ignore stuff not wrapped to <80 cols --psb
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22482 Activity:insanely high
9/15    The state of america today
        "There are two nations and cultures now
        living under the star-spangled banner."
        \_ "ramble"
2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:22478 Activity:insanely high
9/16    This is the most sober article reporting on the events:


        \_ Yeah, i've been using the guardian as a source since the
           US papers have resorted to yellow journalism. This is
           a good article.
        \_ Fuck you you TRAITOROUS piece of shit.  The author
           is probably Neville Chamberlains grandson.
           \_ The USA, like most countries in a position of hegemony, whether
              it wants to or not, has done some pretty questionable things.
              Likewise, some of our policies, while not "bad" per se, were
              at least poorly thought through, and have had bad results.
              To discount those is not a wise idea if you want to at least
              be able to understand (not justify, mind you) the terrible
              actions you see from terrorists.  It's unfortunate, though, that
              it's so difficult for a lot of people to distinguish bad acts
              from evil ones, and that any questioning of these acts is
              immediately interpreted as a condemnation of the US...  -John
                \_ It's one thing to question Billy Bob's
                   bombing of Serbia, its a whole other matter
                   to slam America and the values for which she
           \_ What does that make you? McCarthy's protoge?
              \_ Do yourself and this country a favor and pick
                 up a history book.
                 \_ "Beware of being drawn off from the truth, either by
                     the worldly prudence of half-hearted professors, or by
                     pretences to merit in the self-righteous Pharisee."
            \_ "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the
                same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with
                the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
                                                        - the lord
            \_ let me get this straight. you're calling me a traitor
               because i'm espousing an article that is trying to
               motivate americans to become better acquainted with
               their country's foreign policy?
               listen, dimwit, i'm telling you should find out what
               your country is doing. and you're calling me a traitor.
               go look up traitor, and then go look up the words dimwit
               and nimrod. then decide which of these adjectives apply
               to which of the two of us. -ali
                \_ In his fervor to rationalize, almost justify,
                   the attacks, Milne betrays his socialist,
                   Anti-American (and West) pro-militant Islamism
                   That you would applaud such an article
                   suggests either that yes, like Milne, you are a
                   seditionist, or that you're understanding of
                   history is painfully naive or critically
                \_ --wait... ali said dimwit AND nimrod. Could someone
                   please change the file permissions of the motd?! quick!
                   \_ yes, clearly ali is inciting a riot.
            \_ call it what you want, but putting armed guards at airports
               and all of the other Draconian measures that are going to get
               and all of the other Draconian measures that are going to
               crammed down our throats in the next fews months will only
               be dealing with the symptoms, and not the real problem.  and
               no, I don't necessarily disagree with more stringent security
               at airports, but we could very easily get a lot of our
               constitutional rights trampled on for no good reason.
           is probably Neville's Chamerlains grandson.
           is probably Neville's Chamberlains grandson.
                                                        - thelord
2001/9/15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22471 Activity:nil
9/15    The NSA is falling behind the terrorists:
2001/9/15 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22470 Activity:high 57%like:22406 57%like:22423 57%like:22719 50%like:23057 50%like:23376
9/15    rm /bin/Laden
        \_ better is  rm -f /bin/laden
           \_ better still is chmod a+x /bin/laden
                \_ I don't get this one - clueless
                   \_ it;s because people are guessing that bin laden is
                      "executable", without much in the way of proof.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Recreation/Humor] UID:36292 Activity:nil
9/12    whoa.  wcbs right now is funny, the commentator on the newscorp
        is goading all his guests:
        "Why wait, when we have a bunch of Sherlock Holmes going on, that
        we can't just bomb Afghanistan?  We KNOW it's Bin Laden!"
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36289 Activity:nil 65%like:22433
1460    "In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
         Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
         while the fortress endures,
         the great leader will succumb,
         the third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.

Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.

Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22433 Activity:very high 65%like:36289
9/14    Passenger Mark Bingham (on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania)
        was a '94 or '95 Cal grad. Contrary to news that said he was
        flying out to California on business, he was also coming out
        to be the usher at a wedding of another Cal student (this
        from a friend of mine who worked at 1 WTC, but who was outside
        the building at the time of the crash)

I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.

Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
        \_ He was a three time rugby champion with Cal.
           \_ Which means he's probably one of the people who fought
              the hijackers.
                \_ yup.  there were supposedly around two to three
                   people or so who were over six feet tall weighing
                   more than 200 pounds
        okay, so you got 3 people who are so tall that they need to crouch
        and so heavy that they have a hard time going through the isle
        fighting 5-6 crazy militant Arab guys who have trained their entire
        life for hand combat and could probably break your neck using bare
        hands. Good odds I tell ya.
        \_ How small are you?  6' 200lb, is fine except when sitting in
           coach seats.  And I think you overstate the abilities of
           suicidal terrorists.  They're not used to victims resisting.
        \_ I hear the plan was to fart and then sit on the terrorists.
        \_ In wake of recent events, every air traveler should be trained to
           break the necks of terrorists using their bare hands. It seems
           like an essential skill.
           \_ sounds like a theme for a Jet Li movie.

I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.

Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.
        \_ Another recount of the story:
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22432 Activity:moderate
9/14    Some of us are anti-NSA people.  But now that this has happened,
        have we changed our views about the role of NSA?
        \_ I'm not one of the heavily anti-NSA folks, but I might be after
           this. Why should we expand the powers of an agency that was
           apparently taken completely by surprise by this? I would
           suggest that perhaps the current set of agencies with their
           WWII-era agendas should be replaced with a new agency with
           a contemporary understanding of what to pay attention to.
           \_ Same to CIA.
           \_ silly sodans, who do you think would staff this "new" agency?
             \_ I volunteer you, to start with. Only some pinko
                commie would fail to rise to the challenge in our hour
                of need.
                \_ I volunteer to arrest anyone who uses the words
                   "pinko commie" in a non-ironic sort of way.
                   \_ Relax, I was just trying to make a point about how
                      federal agencies end up the way they do. I do
                      a lot of public sector related work. Good people
                      like, perhaps, yourself, stay away because they
                      mistrust the agencies. Granted my work is mainly
                      with more mundane outfits like the Bureau of Indian
                      Affairs or the Dept of Justice --ulysses
                      \_ article says that the gov't lost top talent to
                         the dot com's and other place.  The gov't doesn't
                         pay that much.
                         \_ The pay issue is real, but the larger problem
                            that I see that is my friends on the left and
                            and the right disagree on everything except
                            their disdain for the gov't and anybody who
                            works for the gov't. Travesties like this will
                            re-occur until something is done to
                            re-establish some sense of respect for working
                            for the gov't. I don't know if this is possible
                            though. Things have gotten so bad. --ulysses
                            \_  I don't have any disdain for the government.
                               I just think they put way too much emphasis
                               on high-tech/electronic surveillance which
                               is great for collecting information from
                               the Russian millitary and innocent US
                               citizens but doesn't really do anything to
                               stop terrorism. We need spies, not satellites
                               and the government should pour more money
                               into the CIA than it does into the NSA
                               (not the other way around).
                                \_ I could hardly argue, and I hope current
                                   events may bring others to that POV, as
                                   well. --ulysses
                            \_ Point made.
                         \_ I'd be willing to work for free if it means
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented. I have
                            to admit, based on my work experience at nasa
                            I always though of gov't workers as lazy bums
                            sitting on thier arses playing solitare and
                            living off the labors of others (taxes). These
                            types of individuals need to go. We can never
                            again be complacent. Eternal vigilence is the
                            price of freedom.
                      a lot of public sector related work. --ulysses
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.  Don't know
           about the post-KGB Russia.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.
           \_ So why don't they go after bin Laden for us? It's about time they
              did something for us for a change.
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22431 Activity:nil
9/13    http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/sep/13josy.htm
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22426 Activity:high
9/13    http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba02bf8631c.htm
        Read message 14
        \_ 14(re israel) or 13(re russia)?
           \_ the numbering of the comments is really confusing.  message 14
              is about russia, not israel. (message 1 is the article itself.)
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?  I think the original
              poster was pointing out the second to last paragraph ("Two nights
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:22424 Activity:nil
9/12    A decent article from a non-US source:
2001/9/13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22423 Activity:nil 57%like:22470
9/12    Interesting details about bin laden:
        \_ Stupid phony ID.
           He forgot that the day goes before the month in British dates.
           -- yuen
2001/9/13 [Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22421 Activity:high
9/12    This is probably the scariest thing I've read all day:
        \_ I heard the FAA is going to add another question at the checkin
           counters: "Why are you travelling."  Yeah, they're going to block
           the terrorists when they answer "Well, I'm planning to hijack this
           plane."  I feel safe now.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36288 Activity:nil
9/11    I found this educational:
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:36275 Activity:nil
9/12    Poll:
        hijack, bomb, etc will continue:         ...
        this is the least horrific of the upcoming atrocities: .
        this is the last of the American terror:
        will be last if wipe out all terrorist completely -
        and destroy any new ones immediately:    ..
        will be last if have one world governnment, put a mark
        on every person in the world to identify and locate everyone 100% of
        the time and track them:                 .
        \_ You sound like a terrorist to me.  Unless you can prove
           otherwise, I'll have to wipe you out.
           \_tell that to the European Union, they'll do that one day
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:36274 Activity:nil
9/12    Oliver Stone time. There is evidence that FDR was informed about
        a possible attack on Pearl Harbor and didn't do anything because
        he wanted the US to get involved in WWII. There is also evidence
        that the USS Greer was depth charging a german u boat under orders
        from Wilson and the Sec. Nav etc when it was attacked leading us
        into WWI. Is it possible that Bush knew and didn't do anything
        so that we could get involved in another war?
        Also consider the recovered "evidence" in Boston. That is such
        a setup, but by whom? The feds (fbi,cia), the administration,
        or the real terrorists trying to throw the investigators of
        the trail?
        \_ You are giving them too much credit.
        \_ The CIA did it to boost their budget.
           \_ Maybe so:
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22406 Activity:high 57%like:22470
9/12    cleanup time: rm -rf /bin/laden
        \_ s/rm/kill/
           \_ s/rm -rf/kill -9/ (terminate with extereme prejudice)
              \_ perhaps you meant "killall"
        \_ Now this would look good on the csua tee-shirt
        \_ -r?  What is he, an executable directory?
        \_ rm -f /bin/laden is just fine
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22402 Activity:high
9/11    I found this educational:
        What I find unsettling is Pakistan's nuclear capability.
        I don't find it such a stretch to imagine bin Laden obtaining nuclear
        arms. Smuggling them into US population centers should not be too hard
        either with patience.
        \_ Well, then, perhaps we'd better get him before he can do that?
           \_ Because covert assassination is the AMERICAN WAY!
        \_ He attempted assassination on President of Egypt, PM of Pakistan and
           Crown Prince of Jordan, all of which Islamic countries?
        \_ If the "Star War" laser defense system were implementer, we could
           be using lasers to shoot at his mud huts at real time as soon as
           we locate him with certainty at a particular moment.
           \_ The lasers would just bake the mud, forming an impenetrable
              shield.  Duh.
              \_ Okay, shoot the lasers when he's moving in his vehicles then.
              \_ Okay, shoot the lasers when he's moving between the mud huts
                 in his vehicles then.
                 \_ You just aren't listening.  _Impenetrable_!!!
                    \_ His vehicles running on open deserts are impenetrable?
                       \_ what if he covers the roofs of his vehicles with
                          impenetrable mud?  you're screwed.
                \_ Lasers aren't the answer. Its particle beams and rail
                   guns. We need space based weapons platforms NOW!
           \_ Orbital bombardment is the way to go.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/Military] UID:22388 Activity:insanely high 57%like:21883
9/11  Motd poll, if you were on a terrorist hijacked plane and the
      terrorists were armed with knifes and cardboard cutters, would
      you be willing to rush the bastards?
      Yes: ..
      Yes: after 9/11/2001, there's no choice anymore.  YOU MUST RETAKE
           THE CABIN OR DIE.
        \_ Think about this.  Everybody on board thouht that it would be
           just another hostage situation-- sit tight, don't stand out, and
           you'll survive.
           \_ agreed.  obviously in retrospect, the answer would be yes.
           \_ yes. if you knew it was life or death then of course; otherwise...
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 50 non terrorists
              and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume that 20 are too
              old or too young or too weak to be of any use. Also assume
              5 terrorists on the plane. Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes
              there is no way that you can knife 7 people, shoot yes, knife
              no. The passengers could have taken them out. Game Over.
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 5 terrorists, 50
              passengers and and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume
              that 20 are too old or too young or too weak to be of any
              use in the situation.
              Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes there is no way that you
              can knife 7 people who are attacking you, shoot yes, knife no.
              The passengers could have easily taken them out. Game Over.
              Yeah you might get hurt, you might even die, but its sure
              better than letting the bastards get away with whatever they
              are planning.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had
                 a bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
                 \_ from another perspective, this could give passengers the
                    sense that they're all going to die anyway and have nothing
                    to lose.
                    \_ Exactly, even the women (esp. the moms) will be
                       willing to take out the bastards. I'd say that
                       its 10 on 1 if they say they've got a bomb.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had a
                 bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
              \_ what if they're just planning to fly to Havana?  Wouldn't
                 you feel stupid getting killed to stop it?  -tom
                   \_ Much better getting killed than getting stuck
                      in fidel's little hell hole with a bunch of
                      terrorists and anti-american commie bastards.
                      Oops I forgot you like anti-american commie
                      Oops forgot you like anti-american commie
                      in fidel's little hell hole.
              \_ assume the plane has narrow aisles. assume they have a hostage.
                 assume half the passengers are women and only half the men
                 are willing to put their lives on the line in the face of 5
                 crazy unreasonable trained fucks with knives. then figure you
                 have no chance to organise anything or discuss with others.
                 figure there's no particular reason to think they're suicidal.
                 \_ Okay, in your case there are still about 13 people willing
                    to take on the bastards. All you need to do is get heavy
                    carry on baggage and start hitting or tripping terrorists.
                    They will get confused and this will screw up thier plans,
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out, which would
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock on, just in case we couldn't
                    get control of the situation.
                    Anyway, I think that I'll learn how to break necks before
                    getting on another plane. Seems to me that this is knowledge
                    that will be quite useful.
                    \_ why should the pilot need to get a message out for air
                       traffic controllers to realize that something is wrong?
                       \_ Course deviations could be due to communications
                          failure and or mechanical failure. ATC will need a
                          message to let the SAMs know that its okay to lock
                          \_ there are no SAMs readily deployed in U.S.
                             soil. Nor can the military act upon a civilian
                             aircraft without the declaration of martial law
                             \_ Martial law must have been declared today,
                                because the F16s that escorted planes into
                                SFO said this "deviate from course and you
                                because the f16s that escorted planes into
                                sfo said this "deviate from course and you
                                will be destroyed".
                                And they are not going to tell you about the
                                SAMs. Ames had them, but you didn't know that
                                did you?
                \_ Wouldn't narrow aisles be to your advantage? They could
                   not bum rush you. Then you could steven segal their ass
                   one by one.
                   \_ From my own experience and people I've talked to,
                      you're not going to be able to do anything to someone
                      with a knife unless you're willing to be seriously
                      injured.  The only options I can see are 1) grab
                      something like luggage (mentioned above) or 2) accept
                      that you're going to get hurt and impale yourself on
                      the weapon to keep them from using it further.
                      \_ I'd go with impale myself and make life miserable
                         for the terrorist. If I'm going to die anyway I've
                         got nothing to lose.
        \_ Even the odds. Bring your leatherman with you. I've flown with
           it several times. Nobody questions it. (Maybe they should...)
           \_ I think that we should all learn to kill people with our
              bare hands. When the pull a knife, you break thier neck.
        \_ They probably carved up the flight crew to intimidate the rest
           of the passengers.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em. Though, if 3 of
               the five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats
               then there's not much you can reasonably do.
               \_ Can't hijack a plane if 3 of 5 are occupied by hostages.
                  Anyway, if they cut the throats of the stewardesses they
                  still have the bodies in thier hands, its an advantage
                  to you when you rush them.
            \_ Yes. You should use the body parts of the crew as weapons.
               If enough blood is spilled, they might slip and fall. Then,
               you can open the emergency doors and hope they slide out.
        \_ by-stander effect?  remember psychology 1?
        \_ I don't mean to get off-topic, but I've been studying Japanese
           sword for a few years, and one of the important lessions I've
           learned is that if you are willing to die, you have a huge
           advantage.  All this talk about fighting back is fine and might
           have actually worked, but the terrorists were willing to die,
           which makes them much more formidable, plus they were the ones
           with the weapons.  - mikeym
           \_ Yes but, if the passengers are willing to die as well (or
              they know that they will die anyway) you have no advantage.
              Shear numbers will win.
        \_ Consider now that passengers are going to be less likely to
           sit by idly if they get hijacked.  -geordan
                 figure there's particular reason to believe they're suicidal.
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out.
                    Hopefully its long enough for the SAMs to lock on.
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock in, just in case we couldn't
           \_ When they start to carve up the flight crew, you jump them.
              That will confuse them enough to take them out.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em.  Though, if 3 of the
               five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats then
               there's not much you can reasonably do.
2001/9/11 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36265 Activity:nil
9/11    Sept. 11 is 911
2001/9/11-12 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22396 Activity:high
9/11    How did terrorists get the airplanes to hit the WTC and Pentagon?
        Why would pilots crash a plane into those buildings considering that
        they probably knew that they were going to die anyways. Wouldn't it
        be better to just try to crash the airplane in a place where the number
        of casualties would be minimum? Or could it be that the terrorists had
        their own pilots? Also, any ideas about how terrorists could have gotten
        into the cockpit? Most airplanes these days should have armored
        cockpit doors. You can't get in there if the door is closed without
        blowing up the plane. Of course, the terrorists probably had all of
        those details planned well in advance..
        \_ man, just shut up.
        \_ Alright, I'm no investigator but I think what may have happened was
           that the hijacker(s) got into the cockpit by threatening one (or
           more) of the flight attendants with anything from butter knife to
           Swiss Army knife (which almost always pass security) to knock on
           the cockpit door; dragged and killed the pilot & 1st officer and
           piloted the plane himself. This is assuming that the jihad hijacker
           has knowledge of flying a commercial aircraft. I guess we won't
           know until the FAA release the cockpit-tower conversation during the
           crisis. I'm just pissed off and mad at this whole thing. - jthoms
           \_ It's NOT THAT HARD to pilot a stupid airliner for this.
              You punch coordinates into the autopilot to get you close,
              then tweak the controls a little for maximum impact at the end.
              It's not like you need to go to pilot school.
              \_ Perhaps, but it's not that hard to find a pilot in this
                 world, and it seems unlikely that people this organized
                 could be so poor that they wouldn't be able to afford training
                 of one sort or another.
                 world, and it seems unlikely that people that organized this
                 were so poor that wouldn't be able to afford training of
                 one sort or another.
        \_ <DEAD>us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010911/ts/crash_tradecenter_pentagon_olson_dc_1.html<DEAD>
           Read paragraph 4. - jthoms
           \_ How the f**k did they get the pilot out of the cockpit?  Or
              let them take over the cockpit?
              \_ "if you don't let me in the cockpit i cut out lisa's entrails!"
                 actually i imagine they killed someone first for effect.
                 \_ Still not a reason to let them in. Better they knife
                    50 people than kill 25K.
        \_ I would assume that the hijackers killed the pilots.  No sane
           American pilot would have willingly steered a passenger jet into
           the WTC or the Pentagon.  News reports also stated that each of the
           jets hijacked had similar controls, so most likely the hijackers
           were trained to pilot the aircraft.
           \_ Does this mean that flight sims will now be outlawed?
           \_ Maybe they were holding the family of the pilot hostage.
              Or they might have bribed him or something. I think that
              they probably had guns, smuggled aboard by bribing a janitor
              or baggage handler. Hey if it works for drugs in miami,
              there is no reason it won't work for guns in nyc.
                 world, and it seems unlikely that people that organized this
                 were so poor that wouldn't be able to afford training of
                 one sort or another.
        \_ <DEAD>us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010911/ts/crash_tradecenter_pentagon_olson_dc_1.html<DEAD>
           Read paragraph 4. - jthoms
2001/9/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:22386 Activity:high 50%like:23004
9/11    check news sources.  massive terrorist attacks .  nyc and washington.
        \_ commercial jets flown into both wtc towers and the pentagon.
           world trade center collapsed.
        \_ tv just said 2 more planes have been hijacked
           \_ One F-16 is already airborne waiting for order.  Also another
              hijacked plane hit Pittsburg, and anothter at Camp David.
              Didn't someone say they should
              hijacked plane hit Camp David.  Didn't someone say they should
              hijacked plane hit Pittsburg.  Didn't someone say they should
              install anti-aircraft weapons after that propeller plane landed
              on the White House lawn a while ago?  -- yuen
              \_ the white house does.
        \_ No warning from The CIA.  That lame agency should be overhauled.
           \_ NSA handles a much larger fraction of US inteligence operations
              and has many times larger budget.
              \_ fine, THAT lame agency should be overhauled too then.
           \_ NSA handles a much larger fraction of US inteligence operations\
         and has many times larger budget.
           \_ How do you know they gave no warning?
              \_ Well somebody f&%$ed up, now didn't they? --ulysses
        \_ so is there still class today?
           \_ No.
                \_ Yes.  Checkout http://www.berkeley.edu
        \_ I can't get through to the news sites?  Where can I see pictures
           of the "collapsed" WTC?  I've only see pictures of one tower
           smoking.  It's not possible for it to topple over just like that
           \_ http://www.sky.com/skynews/video
           \_ yahoo
        \_ thanks to Bush who pours billions of dollars into anti-missile
           defense and forgets about intelligence
           \_ Nothing has been put into anti-missile defense during the
              Bush admin.  I understand that you're ignorant and blindly
              hate all Republicans but at least base it on something that
              looks like a fact instead of whatever you made up in your
              little head.
           one tower at least partially collapsed.
           \_ One F-16 is already airborne.
           \_ One F-16 is already airborne waiting for order.  -- yuen
              hijacked plane hit Camp David.  -- yuen
        \_ The CIA is so lame.  It should be overhauled.
        \_ No warning from The CIA.  That lame agency should be overhauled.
2000/11/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:19800 Activity:nil
11/16   WPB officials deny request for hand recount:

In the 1984 Palm Beach election, more than 310,000 ballots were cast. The
margin between two County Commission candidates was 242 votes.

The loser in that race and in others on the ballot protested, among other
things, the hanging chad problem. Officials denied a request for a hand
2000/10/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:19519 Activity:very high
10/18   Does US have jurisdiction in Yemen?  Why is the FBI, a US law
        enforcement agency, conducting investigation on an attack occured in
        that country?
        \_ don't you know that the US has jurisdiction anywhere it wants?
           \_ Speak softly and carry a BIG stick (or an aircraft carrier)
           \_ Yeah, but I mean how do they justify it?
              \_ The aforementioned big stick.
        \_ Presumably, the excuse would be that terrorist attacks as an
           external threat may reflect tendencies that can easily become
           internal threats. I doubt the govt of Yemen gives them much
        \_ A lot of governments "invite" the FBI in when US installations
           or large numbers of Americans get whacked.  While this is probably
           mainly to avoid pissing off the US, it makes sense, as the FBI
           is probably the most technically advanced and experienced
           investigative outfit in the world, like it or not.  -John
           \_ Scotland Yard.
              \_ oh yeah! when was the last time you heard they investigated
                 something big without having to resort to the Big Brother/
                 national DNA database that the Brits have? Using a computer
                 to match DNA samples is easy. Using tried and true
                 investigation methods is not - like most things British
                 it's past its time or is way overrated
              \_ Scotland Yard?  The guys *still* haven't resolved the
                 Lockerbie terrorism.  Sherlock is dead.
2000/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:19370 Activity:nil
9/29    If you see a crazy driver weaving in and out of the lane (maybe
        he's drunk?) can you call 911 on your cellphone? Or is it reserved
        for something that has already happened, like an accident?
        \_ if the person is a hazard to himself, to others, or to property,
           a call to 911 is justified.
2000/4/12-13 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:17989 Activity:nil
4/12    If my broker charged me $50 commission for buying 1000 shares of a
        stock, and then I sold 500 shares later and keep the other 500 shares,
        can I apply all of the $50 buying commission as cost to the 500 shares
        I sold on my tax return?  Thx.
        \_ probably, if you don't use it later when you sell the other 500
           shares.  -tom
        \_ Every example I've seen says no, that you calculate the gain on a
           per-share basis (including commission, averaged over the number of
           shares). -emarkp
1998/12/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:15071 Activity:kinda low
12/4    Troll deleted again.

Amy Biehl was a Stanfurd graduate who left for S. Africa on a Fulbright
scholarship to help with voter registration in the nation's first all-race
1994 election marking the end of apartheid.  In the wrong place at the wrong
time, she was in the black township of Guguletu when an angry mob returning
from a political rally stoned her car, dragged her out, beat her, and killed
her.  At least one of her black compatriots attempted to defend her, telling
them that she was a friend.  Four people were convicted and sentenced to
18 years.  In July of this year, these four men were released from prison,
granted amnesty by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (as required by the
amnesty provision, they had fully confessed to the attack, including
the individual who committed the fatal stab wound).  Peter and Linda Biehl
of Newport Beach, CA, released a public statement supporting the commission's
decision, and have since regularly travelled to S. Africa to confirm to
passersby that they have truly forgiven their daughter's killers, and towards
fostering understanding between those who would be blood enemies.  Whether
each part of this story is right or wrong I don't say -- that you know that
each part happened and think about it is what's important.  When this
disappears, ~jctwu/pub/biehl.
        \_ Well now I understand how the daughter could be so stupid, given
        what the parents are like.  I knew about the daughter, but had no
        idea this was a multi-generational defect.
        \_ was the daughter cute?  is the mom?  do you have film of the
           mother and daughter doing the nasty?  otherwise, why should
           we care?
        \_ so was the bitch cute or not?
        \_ The daughter is almost as stupid as the parents.  Yet another
           total victory for the forces of Charles Darwin.
1998/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/Space, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:14610 Activity:kinda low
9/15    What consumes more power, an empty refrigerator or
        a full refrigerator?
        \_ on startup from an unpowered condition, the full one does
           because you need to cool down a larger amount of stuff
           (most solids/liquids have a higher spec.heat than air)
           but say you have everything cooled down, a sort of steady
           state and you pull the power, then the full fridge will
           stay cooler longer due to the higher "heat mass"  One could
           similarly say that the full fridge requires less energy per
           unit time to maintain a low temperature as all the frozen
           veggies and meat and other things with high water content
           maintain their temperature much better than air.  Of course,
           if you dont plug either fridge in at all, then its a tie,
           though in a strict sense the full one will absorb more heat
           but will give up less heat given a rise or drop in temp. --jon
                \-well there is also the pathological case of say rotting/
                fermeting food which is exothermic. --psb
                \_ is hell exothermic or endothermic? - tpc
                   \_ ~dpc/forwards/hell
                      \_ amusing. But the cited professor was most definately
                         not the original one, as I heard the "final exam"
                         version of this, some time in 1995 or before.
                         (different response cited, though)
        \_ how often one opens and closes a refrigerator really affects how
           much power it uses, more than how much it contains.
           \_ this is true but the question was about the effect of fullness
              on power consumption.

Reminder!  Special Session of Micronet THURSDAY:
        Speaker:        Calvin Moore, Professor and Chair, Math Dept.,
                        and Chair of the Commission on Computing.
                        Prof. Moore will be discussing the
                        commission's recent report on the future
                        orginizational direction of computing on
                        the UCB campus.  The commission was
                        mostly made up of faculty, so this is a
                        chance for staff to give feedback.
                        The URL for the report is:
        Time/Date:      12-2pm, THURSDAY 9/17/98
        Location:       223 Moses Hall
        \_ Staff feedback?  They needed more landfill material?
           The only thing more ridiculous than staff feedback is student
           \_ There were two students on the commission.
                \_ Woo woo! Power to the people!  They served drinks?
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