Industry Jobs - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2010/8/17-9/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Industry/Jobs] UID:53926 Activity:nil
8/17    Private sector growing, public sector shrinking:
        \_ starve the beast!
        \_ why do  they never count the armed forces as employment
2010/8/7-25 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53911 Activity:moderate
8/6     Slide acquired by Google:
        \_ Are you going to retire now? -ausman
           \_ No.  I'm not quite there yet.  But home ownership looks tempting.
        \_ Financially how much better was the exit vs. the amount you could
           have gotten working as a sysadmin in ucb?
           \_ I'm pretty sure UCB sysadmins don't have exits.  What's a
              typical UCB sysadmin make? -dans
                 \_ That's just mean. -dans
                    \_ not as mean as the things tom said to other people
                       in the past 2 decades or so.
                       \_ Call that a job perk.  The opportunity to bitch out
                          people on the motd.  +1 for UC Sysadmin job. -dans
                    \_ Probably overpaid given all the other benefits.
                 \_ I thought government workers were all overpaid. I just
                    looked up a CSUAer who works for the UC and he is making
                    about 2/3 what I would expect to pay for someone of his
                    skill and experince in the private sector. What gives?
                    \_ Offer him a job at the higher rate then. See if he
                       takes it.
                       \_ You are making the mistake of thinking all salary
                          and wages come in the form of cash.
                          \_ I am not sure if he would take the job or not.
                             It's a curious experiment. I think the one
                             making the mistake is the "2/3 salary" guy.
                             If the CSUAer could make 50% more in industry
                             then why isn't he? Could it be because he's
                             in a pretty cushy spot relative to industry?
                             \_ Sorry; clarification, i agree with you,
                                i don't agree with "all compensation is only
                                determined by the absolute value of my
                                paycheck" guy.  He is assuming many things;
                                the least of which is that everyone has
                                identical values.  I can give many instances
                                where people would opt for a lower "pay" but
                                more secure job: single parents (is only one
                              \_ Maybe he lives in East Bay and doesn't want
                                 to commute to Silicon Valley. Two extra
                                 hours a day of free time is worth a lot
                                 of money.
                           \_ I have a resume that came across my desk last
                              week which is a Berkeley sysadmin (not this guy).
                              I will probably give him a call. His stated
                              reason for his job search "The UC is not a good
                              place to work for right now." I notice most
                              employees haven't had a raise in four years.
2010/5/17-26 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53834 Activity:nil
5/13    "In a Job Market Realignment, Some Left Behind" - Yahoo! Finance:
        '.Sometimes I think I.d be better off in jail,. she says, only half
        joking. .I.d have three meals a day and structure in my life. I.d be
        able to go to school. I.d have more opportunities if I were an inmate
        than I do here trying to be a contributing member of society..'
        Why is the govt treating criminals better than law-abiding citizens?
        \_ Is this some kind of bizarre troll? This woman just got $17k of
           job training paid for by the government and also gets food stamps
           and you are complaining that we should give her more? She even has
           a steady, albeit low-paying job. If jail was really so great, she
           would already be there.
           \_ A $17K student *loan* and food stamps?  Are you seriously
              suggesting that's excessive compensation for someone with 30
              years of work experience?  -tom
              \_ You are right, we should just throw her in jail instead.
2010/2/26-3/30 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux, Industry/Jobs] UID:53727 Activity:nil
        There are bold programmers, but no old programmers
        \_ This is true, mot ppl i knokw who are older seem to want to "get out
           of programming."  They have kids, they want to do other things.
           \_ There was an article about how programming isn't that rewarding
              as an end game to most normal (non psychologically troubled) folk
              \_ show us the article. Yeah a lot of the old farts at my work
                 who still program seem psychologically... different.
2010/2/1-3/4 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53680 Activity:kinda low
2/1     Is there a world writeable jobs directory (e.g. /csua/pub/jobs)?
        A friend of mine is looking for a Senior HW engineer.
        \_ Everyone is looking for a Senior * engr. At that point why even
           say Senior?
           \_ Senior often means you don't want someone straight out of school.
              Of course, in SW that's not really true, and many? Cal
              grads start out as Sr. SW Engineers. At least in this case, he's
              looking for an actual senior person... probably an MS or PhD/PhD
              dropout w/ a few years experience or a BS and at least 5.
              \_ New college grads at my company all start out as Associate
                 SE, if they are good within a year or two they move to SE.
                 It takes a minimum of 3 and usually more like 5 to make
                 Sr. SE. I bet it is the same at any real tech company.
                 \_ By the time college grads graduate they've already got
                    2-3 summers of internship, we hire almost exclusively thru
                    our internship program.  Basically when we see a graduate
                    we expect them to know everything already, if they don't
                    it's clearly a waste of time to hire them, I could just do
                    the job myself.
                    \_ How many full-time jobs do you think you can do
                       yourself? Even someone who works at 50% of your
                       efficiency for 75% of your salary is a net win
                       because it frees you up to do stuff others can't do.
                       \_ But then I'd have to train them and I do not have
                          any time to train them.  They must know already.
                          The ideal candidate is a psychic engineer who has
                          already implemented my product in a serious open
                          src project.  And if you can't find someone like tihs
                          fire your recruiters.  There are 8 million coder
                          monkeys out there working on projects. One of them
                          is bound to have implemented the soln to the same
                          problem you're trying to solve.  If you can't find
                          that person, the new hire isn't worth anything.
                    \_ What difference is it if they got trained as interns or
                       as new hires? They still have to be trained.
                       \_ That's my point, real engineers, NEVER have to be
                          "trained" they just KNOW. It's like at cal where the
                          bright kids never show up to lecture but ace all
                          the tests.  Go Bears!  Dogs are Trained.  Interns
                          are trained.  Bears and Engineers don't need to be.
                    \_ All these comments apply solely to SW.

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2010/1/30-2/18 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53678 Activity:nil
1/30    Has anyone here worked as a remote engineer (e.g. headquarter is
        in Silicon Valley), and if so, how long have you done it for
        and what has your experience been like?         -kchang
        \_ No response, ok. Does anyone here know anyone else who
           may know anyone else who may know anyone else who may
           have worked as a remote engineer and can you help me
           get in touch with that person?               -kchang
           \_ I don't think anyone cares, bro.
           \_ I know a ton of people who started at HQ and the moved remote
              after they had established themselves, but no one in that
              particular situation, sorry. -ausman
2009/12/24-2010/1/19 [Computer/SW/Apps, Industry/Jobs] UID:53599 Activity:nil
        Train autistic people to do QA. Perfect fit.
2009/12/15-2010/1/19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53594 Activity:nil
12/15   I remember that when I was in school two decades ago, there was
        one career center which handles co-ops and internships for all majors,
        and another one which handles those specifically for engineering and
        CS majors.  Is that still the case these days?  My company is looking
        to hiring software interns in the next few months, and I wonder if
        there is a better organization than the Career Center
        ( to work with.  Thanks.
        \_ You may be thinking of the Industrial Relations Office (IRO/IPRO).
           Using this is very expensive: $10k/year to join the Industrial
           Liason Program (ILP), plus other costs.
           \_ 10K isn't a lot if you're hiring over 10 cheap students.
              Scale is the key. If you're a big company, it makes a lot
              of sense. That's why most companies on the program are
              in fact big companies. Stupid failed startups like
              Interval Research didn't make any sense.
2009/11/5-19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53505 Activity:low
10/5    Google interviews, exposed. In another word, it's not very
        different from Netscape's former interviews, Microsoft's
        former interviews, and HP's former interviews when they
        were still in their infancy:
        Yes, they still care about your GPA, even if you worked
        10 years and you're well into the 30s.
        \_ the Rickety rope bridge question cannot be solved.
           What's up?
           \_ nevermind I Googled the solution and it exists
              \_ You fail.  (1+2->1->5+10->2->1+2).
        \_ They asked me my SAT score and I was in my 30s at the time.
           \_ Any employer that does that or ask for GPA needs to eff off.
              I'd tell them to shove it and I scored well on my SAT. Maybe
              they want my kindergarten report card, too? Do they drug test?
        \_ I interviewed, education and GPA never came up.  MANY detailed technical
           questions did come up.   They basically drilled me about things until
           we reached a point that I couldn't explain any further what they asked me.
           There were no stupid puzzle problems.  It was an exhausting, difficult
           interview and I didn't get the job.
        \_ I interviewed, education and GPA never came up.  MANY detailed
           questions did come up.   They drilled me about things until
           we reached a point that I couldn't explain any further what they
           asked me.  There were no stupid puzzle problems.  It was an
           exhausting, difficult interview and I didn't get the job.
           \_ are they similar to the questions above? How accurate
              is the link above? Did you answer the questions correctly?
        \_ I think there's a healthy level of BS in that article.  I didn't
           go for Product Manager.  I am not sure from the context if
           their version of Product Manager is technical or glorified
           time tracking.  The manhole cover problem has been an infamous
           Microsoft interview question for 20 years.  What kind of nerd
           doesn't know what 0xdeadbeef is?  I didn't get asked any
           puzzle questions.  Oh there's my buddy the @#$@## pirate problem.
        \_ This article is a load of crap.  This 'answer' to this
           'famous google interview question' is 'wrong'
           \_ The question is poorly worded, you need to ask a bunch of
              questions to make sure that the assumptions are correct.
        \_ ok my friend made it through 2 phone, and 5 physical
           interviews for SRE, got good marks from everyone, but the
           hiring committee declined to try to hire him because he didn't
           have a masters or phd.
           \_ That is bullshit. I know lots of SREs who are not MS.
              Actually most are not! The review process is on a point
              system. If 4/5 people gave good remarks, he's pretty much
              in the game. Something happened to the hiring committee.
              There's a lot to be said about recruiters. Some are ok,
              but most are bad contractors.             -googler
2009/10/29-11/3 [Computer/SW/Database, Industry/Jobs] UID:53480 Activity:nil
10/28   I live in the Los Angeles area and a lot of jobs near me hire
        people who are 1) Front End developer 2) ASP .NET Developer and/or
        3) MS SQL DBA. Are these things common in Silicon Valley? I don't
        remember seeing so much M$ requirements when I lived in the
        Bay Area several years ago.
        \_ tons for it and enterprise apps. more rarely for cool startups
           \_ so cool companies don't use it, but lame ass companies do?
2009/10/28-11/3 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53476 Activity:high
10/27   See how much tom makes:
        \_ Sure glad I went the private industry route. Where is jkuroda?
           Doesn't he work for the UC as well?
           \_ Wow I can't believe this information is public. It makes me
              glad that I don't work at U.C. either. I make a lot more
              even though I'm much younger than Holub, and this is not
              even counting my stock options.
              \_ I make a lot more too, but I am middle management (as is
                 Tom). What do you do?
                 \_ Code monkey in the EDA industry. I've worked at
                    a startup that got acquired by Synopsis, then a router
                    management software (not EDA) company that got bought by
                    Cisco, and now working at a mid-sized company (again in
                    EDA) in San Jose. In all three cases I made over $100K,
                    without counting stock options. You need a PhD in EDA
                    to make serious money in the $150-170K but I'm just a
                    code monkey who codes routing shit. I'm sorry I can't
                    give you names away or you'll figure out who I am.
                    \_ Obviously if your intention is to acheive the greatest
                       possible monetary compensation, you shouldn't be
                       working for UC.  I would argue that if your basic
                       needs are met and you have a comfortable cushion
                       for discretionary expenses, you should be focusing
                       on factors other than monetary compensation.  How
                       many hours do you work, how long is your commute, is
                       your work satisfying?  A lot of Americans, and in
                       particular a lot of geeks, seem to miss this.  -tom
                       \_ commute ranged between 20-40min one way throughout
                          the three companies I worked at. I work 50HR/wk
                          on average, but there will be 1-2 weeks a year
                          that'll be more like 60-70HR/wk. How satisfying?
                          I read algorithmic papers and do implementations.
                          I don't deal with whining users, so I can't
                          imagine it being worse than sys admin.
                          \_ Personally, I find it important to work for
                             an organization whose overall goals I support.
                             I wouldn't be happy in any role at some random
                             dotcom producing nothing of real value.  That's
                             a personal choice, of course.
                             By the way, I've not been a sysadmin for almost
                             10 years now.  -tom
                             \_ EDA/CAD/routing/optimizer/placement is not a
                                *dot com* internet type of company. Do you
                                even know what EDA means? We use software
                                to build hardware.
                                \_ I wasn't speaking specifically about your
                                   situation.  But I also would find it
                                   less than fulfilling to be in your
                                   business.  I worked for GE for 8 years
                                   and that was probably 6 too many.  -tom
                             \_ Is Google a dotcom producing nothing of
                                real value? Do you use Google? The Internet?
                                \_ I wouldn't work for Google.
                                \_ I wouldn't work for Google.  -tom
                                   \_ Google wouldn't want you. Too old and
                                      not educated in the CS field.
                       \_ What are the retirement benefits like, though?
                          Are you going to be one of those State leeches
                          who makes more from the State after you retire
                          at age 52? If that's the case I would argue
                          $120K is overpaid.
                          \_ I will feed the troll only once on this:
                             earning a pension is no more "leeching" than
                             cashing in stock options is.  It's part of
                             the non-salary compensation package.  -tom
                             \_ Answer my question:
                                Is this pension going to be from age 50
                                until death at something close to (or more
                                than) your regular salary? If so, I would
                                argue that your current compensation is more
                                than fair. Most of us are not getting
                                $120K/year plus health benefits for our
                                retirement starting at age 50. It's not
                                that you are earning a pension. I don't
                                begrudge anyone that. I begrudge people
                                who earn exorbitant pensions whether it's
                                a Golden Parachute or whatever. When I see
                                some State employees retiring at age 50 at
                                more than their full-time salary it makes
                                me sick, especially when they are then
                                rehired at another salary. No one should be
                                paid more after retirement than they earned
                                while working and very few people should be
                                able to collect retirement before age 65.
                                I believe it is fair to retire at age 65
                                at 50% salary and even that is more than
                                most people get. Government workers who
                                were made promises we shouldn't have made
                                and can't keep are strangling government
                                \_ You'll have to get your next meal elsewhere,
                                   troll.  -tom
                                \_ So contract law doesn't apply to
                                   government pensions? How else would you
                                   like to rewrite common law?
                                   \_ It's not that the contract doesn't
                                      apply so much as the State needs to
                                      declare bankruptcy because they
                                      cannot pay it. That's what other
                                      entities do when obligations exceed
                                      the ability to repay them.
                                      \_ The State can easily afford to pay
                                         all of its obligations. Some citizens
                                         may not want to pay, but the potential
                                         tax revenue is available.
                                         \_ You're one of those people who
                                            see every dollar that anyone
                                            earns anywhere as "potential
                                            State revenue" I take it.
                                            Let's raise taxes to 100% and
                                            we will all work for the
                                            government in a utopian society.
                                            The taxpayers did not promise these
                                            pensions to the government
                                            employees and they, rightfully,
                                            refuse to pay for them. It's easy
                                            to give away money if it's not
                                            yours. You can just raise taxes
                                            and get more. It's like magic!
                                            \_ You get to declare bankruptcy
                                               if you are unable to meet your
                                               obligations, not just if you
                                               don't feel like meeting them.
                                               The taxpayers most certainly
                                               did make this promise. They
                                               elected representatives who
                                               signed the contracts. No
                                               different than when shareholders
                                               elect a board to sign contracts.
                                               \_ The State is going broke.
                                                  Hello, McFly! Have you
                                                  been asleep for the last
                                                  two years? When the CEO
                                                  screws up by making
                                                  promises he can't keep, like
                                                  happened at GM or United
                                                  Airlines then the company
                                                  goes BK! The State is in
                                                  the same situation. It
                                                  will take 25% of the general
                                                  fund to fund retirements
                                                  pretty soon. We cannot tax
                                                  our way out of that mess
                                                  without severe repercussions.
                                                  The Feds need to tax us
                                                  to fix the mess they made.
                                                  You can't just raise taxes to
                                                  90% to pay for all this crap.
                                                  However, the State, unlike
                                                  the Feds, *can* declare
                                                  bankruptcy. It's where we're
                                                  \_ Wan to bet? CA is not
                                                  \_ Want to bet? CA is not
                                                     going to declare bankruptcy
                                                     that is just a kook fantasy
                                                     I do hope we cut down
                                                     retirement benefits for new
                                                     hires though.
                                   PS $15k invested each year for 25 years
                                   at a 10% nominal gain (stock market avg)
                                   gives you $2.5M, which is worth at least
                                   as much as a $100/yr for life pension.
                                   \_ First, you are lucky if you see a 10%
                                      gain. It might be that much. It
                                      might be less. Second, how many
                                      employers out there that you know of
                                      are putting 12.5% (15/120) of your
                                      salary into an account for you? Mine
                                      is better than average and it is 8%.
                                      The average is 5.4% according to the
                                      "50th Annual Survey of Profit
                                      Sharing and 401k Plans." Third, to
                                      save $2.5M over 25 years at 10% you
                                      would need to invest $1886 per month
                                      or $22K per year, not $15K.
                                      \_ Private employers pay more, in return
                                         you have to finance your own
                                         retirement. There is risk here, but
                                         you knew that when you decided to take
                                         this route, right? No one was
                                         bellyaching when the stock market was
                                         on a tear, in fact a bunch of morons
                                         tried to privatize Social Security
                                         as well. If you want to try and strike
                                         it rich, work in private industry, if
                                         want security work for the government.
                                         Hopefully this is not news to you.
                                         Your math is correct, btw, thanks for
                                         catching that. I was using 30 years,
                                         not 25. Most UC plans need 30 years
                                         to really get a good retirement.
                                         \_ CalPERS lost a shitload of money
                                            investing in the same crap
                                            everyone else did, except they
                                            have a government backstop.
                                            They need to be held responsible
                                            for the investments they made
                                            *or* else everyone else needs
                                            to be given the same luxury.
                                            Meanwhile, our "safe" Social
                                            Security investments are earning
                                            crap. Damn straight I want my
                                            SS $$$ to invest myself. Why
                                            should State employees get to
                                            invest 12.5% of their salaries
                                            in high-risk, high-return
                                            vehicles while I get almost
                                            nothing on the money my employer
                                            and I am contributing? BTW, I
                                            wouldn't say private employers
                                            pay that much more for most jobs.
                                            Only high-level executives are
                                            grossly underpaid by the government.
                                            I have been browsing the lists
                                            of State and Federal employees
                                            and salaries are much higher
                                            than you'd think.
                                            \_ you're an idiot.
                                               \_ This is a compliment
                                                  coming from you.
                                            \_ State employees are now paying
                                               8% into their retirement, which
                                               they weren't before, to make up
                                               for CalPERS losses.
           \_ Oh, I get it, this database only includes those who made
                \_ See sacbee link above. ALL state employees in that DB.
        \_ I really hope TEDFORD, JEFF is worth what you're paying him
           \_ Donations to the althetic department are up over $10M/yr since
              Tedford was hired, so the answer is yes, he is worth it.
        \_ Brian Harvey makes slightly more than Holub. Both make more than
           Hilfinger. WTF?
           David Patterson makes 345K, the highest I've seen so far. Nice.
           \_ Why is John Canny's salary not higher?
              \_ In the industry, salaries are set by how often you move
                 around; every move gives you an opportunity for an increase.
                 In academia, the same can happen, but people move much less.
                 So academic salaries are often driven by competitive offers;
                 Stanford will offer a package to one of our faculty, and the
                 deans will scramble to match the package (depending on the
                 faculty member).  So faculty salary is partly a function
                 of how interesting the faculty member is to other
                 institutions, but also a function of how much the faculty
                 member is willing to go out and solicit offers for his
                 services.  -tom
           \_ That's because Patterson is worth it.
              \_ According to salary, Mr. Football Coach is more worth it
                 than the RISC guy that brought huge changes and billions
                 of dollars and new opportunities to Silicon Valley.
                 Football rules!
        \_ Why is John Yoo still making $1/4M? Isn't he on sabbatical?
           \_ It's the government. He'll probably earn money until he dies
              even if he never works again.
              \_ No he is still working, he is just on loan to some OC school.
2009/9/29-10/8 [Finance/Banking, Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:53412 Activity:moderate
9/29    So let's say I have some money, about $100k. What are some things
        I could do with it? What do you guys recommend?
        \_ Hookers and blow
        \_ Guns, ammo, MREs, to prepare for the coming apocalypse!
           \_ I am thinking about buying some gold.
              \_ Gold is a bad idea right now.  The inflation hedge is
                 already factored into the price.  There are other assets that
                 are also a good inflation hedge that aren't in a bubble.  Such
                 as real estate.  (The bubble there having just burst.)
        \_ quit your job, move back home, and do your own startup.
           Realize that the sooner you stop working for DA MAN, the
           less likely you'll run into mid-life crisis in your 30s.
           \_ I would like to start my own business, but probably not
              a startup.
              \_ So, like, restaurant would be in your opinion your
                 own business, but not a startup? A startup doesn't
                 necessarily mean a TECH company less than 100 person.
                 \_ Let's say I bought a McDonalds franchise, would that be
                    a startup?
                    \_ uh, no. If you don't know and don't care, it's
                       better than you stick to working for THE MAN.
              \_ What?
        \_ Wait a couple more months, then use it as down payment for a rental
           \_ This is on the short list.
        \_ Keep it in a savings account as a contingency fund and for
           a down payment for the next time you sell and buy a house?
2009/9/11-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Industry/Jobs] UID:53358 Activity:low
9/10    Everyone, please nominate your favorite sysadm! I vote for
        Tom Holub aka tom@csua.
        \_ bahahahahaha you're kidding right?
           \_ who is tom holub?
        \_ Aubie.
2009/7/23-29 [Industry/Jobs] UID:53190 Activity:nil
7/23    Help end the failed experiment of a full-time legislature in CA
        \_ So you are saying we will be better off if they are _less_
           professional?  Why don't we just make them work 80 hour weeks?
           How about they do some of the roadwork in thier over-time so they
           understand the utility of conserving state funds to allow for
           hiring professionals? -mrauser
2009/5/12-20 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:52985 Activity:nil
5/12    What's the going rate these days for a CS summer intern doing some PHP
        and MYSQL work on a web app? Doesn't really have to be that particular,
        but that's just an example of what we're doing. Dog food and scraps
        doesn't count as fair pay.
        \_ My company is paying $0/hr, while my friend's company is paying
           \_ That's less than it was 10 years ago. Sucks.
        \_ Interns aren't paid in most industries. Why isn't that true in
           CS? (Not that I'm complaining, having made a few dollars myself
           as an intern.)
           \_ Supply and demand.
           \_ Most engineering interns get paid. MBA interns generally get
              paid. Also, undergrad business interns in accounting, consulting,
              banking, etc. Supply and demand is the answer but your premise
              was not true.
2009/5/9-18 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52978 Activity:moderate
5/9     After you date or marry, how long does it take for her to pick on
        every little fucking thing that's wrong with you? My record is here:
        1st gf: 3 years
        2nd gf: 5 years
        wife: 6 years
        \_ do you have kids?
                \_ This might actually be a very germane question.  1st,
                   kids would distract her, 2nd, there's an apparent
                   evolutionary phenonema that couples start to "lose the
                   spark" if they haven't produced kids together.  And
                   even then, shopping for a new mate after 7 years is
                   also sort of an evolutionary urge.  Maybe try
                   getting a dog?
                   \_ I think it's more "when people have kids they often
                      stop really living except as extensions of their kids"
                      I know plenty of people who got divorced within a year
                      of their last kid leaving the house and I'm pretty
                      sure they weren't staying together for the kids.  Just
                      that once the kids left they looked at each other and
                      realized they didn't really like each other that much.
                      I also know several couples who have been together for
                      decades without having kids, but those couples seem
                      to actually love each other.
           \_ I think I need to give you more info. Almost 7 years, no
              kids. We're in our mid 30s. She talked about having kids
              for a while, but the thing is I'm about to lose my job.
              My commute really sucks. I spend 2-3 hours a day driving
              in LA. There isn't a lot of tech job opportunities here.
              I can't move because she loves LA. I am miserable. I think
              she is too because I am miserable, and I haven't found any
              decent tech job in the LA area for the past year or so.
              In short, I don't want to have any kid without getting a
              job that I can keep for the next 10 years.
              \_ We're hiring if you're a Java programmer. Our office is
                 around the 405-90 interchange in Weschester.
              \_ I think I don't have to say any more do I?  Biological
                 clock is ticking and your quality of life sounds like
                 it is falling into a rut based on that commute.
                 Maybe you need to have a long talk or something about
                 being willing to move.  I don't know what else you
                 could do.  I guess it depends on your experience and
                 how much savings you have.
                 \_ moving is a solution? where can I move to that'll solve
                    all of my problems? PS I'm about to be unemployed.  -pp
                    \_ Get a job closer to where you live next time.
                       \_ I tried looking for over a year.              -pp
                          \_ 1. Where do you live?
                             2. Where are you willing to commute to?
                             3. What kind of job are you looking for?
                             \_ 1) Pasadena 2) anywhere within 25 min from
                                Pasadena (that means nothing West of 405)
                                I'm tired of recruiters who don't realize
                                that there is a huge difference between
                                LA, Irvine, Santa Monica, and Pasadena. They
                                think LA is LA. 3) anything technically
                                interesting is fine. I have a degree in
                                Computer Science.
                                \_ Be more specific about #3. Do you want
                                   to be in/get into management or project
                                   management? Software development? If
                                   so, what problems interest you (parallel
                                   programming, server side scripting,
                                   e-commerce, security, games)? If not
                                   s/w development then what? Sys admin?
                                   DB admin? Network engineer? You need to
                                   be a lot more specific in what you want
                                   to do unless you are a very early
                                   career hire who doesn't know yet and
                                   then you need to say that.
                                   \_ I find that it doesn't matter. I can
                                      do anything, any language, any field.
                                      \_ I think this may be why you are
                                         having a problem finding a job.
                                         "I can do anything" sounds pompous
                                         and naive. "It doesn't matter" shows
                                         you lack interest. I wouldn't
                                         hire someone who said those things.
                                         You need some focus. Your later
                                         comments show that you have some
                                         biases and preferences so think
                                         about those. How do you want to
                                         contribute to solving problems in
                                         scalability and reliability on
                                         the backend? Write code? Test?
                                         Develop algorithms? Write drivers
                                         for hardware? Design the system?
                                         Admin it? BTW, you probably aren't
                                         a "computer scientist" w/o a PhD
                                         (certainly an MS) so don't worry
                                         about the demand for those people
                                         unless you have a grad degree and
                                         then play it up.
                                         \_ in a small environment, there
                                            isn't a big separation between
                                            coding, QA, and cleaning toilets.
                                            A jack of all trades like the
                                            first 50 Googlers does algorithms
                                            and coding and QA while utilizing
                                            whatever the hardware is given.
                                            So while what you say applies to
                                            big mega corporations, it's not
                                            how every company works. You
                                            sound like someone who has been
                                            in a mega corporation too long,
                                            or someone who knows it all.
                                            I wouldn't want to hire someone
                                            with such tunnel vision, embedded
                                            with strict notion of hierarchy
                                            and division of labor. I wouldn't
                                            hire you.
                                            \_ Or maybe I realize everyone
                                               is not equally good at or
                                               equally suited for every task.
                                               Different topics bore different
                                               people. You don't hire a
                                               web developer to write your
                                               device driver. If you are
                                               looking for a place where
                                               you are exposed to a lot
                                               then SAY SO. However, I have
                                               worked with enough PhDs to
                                               realize that no one can "do
                                               everything". What small
                                               environments often lack are
                                               EXPERTS except where it is
                                               necessary to have expertise.
                                               And in that case if you
                                               don't have the expertise
                                               then you're disposable anyway.
                                               You mention Google. Those
                                               first guys were not hired
                                               for their QA skills. They
                                               were hired for their expertise
                                               in other needed areas. That
                                               they ended up doing QA was
                                               a function of being small,
                                               not because they were domain
                                               experts. I'm sure the QA
                                               experts they have today (if
                                               they have any) laugh at the
                                               work that was done back then.
                                               The big thing was not QA,
                                               obviously. That doesn't
                                               mean there weren't experts
                                               in other areas, though.
                                               However, for someone who
                                               was a domain expert in QA:
                                               1. Google probably didn't want
                                                  you then.
                                               2. You probably didn't want to
                                                  work for them either.
                                               So it is important to state
                                               where your real interests
                                               lie. If you have none that's
                                               almost the same as saying you
                                               have no expertise, because no
                                               one is an expert at everything.
                                         \_ It may sound naive but I think
                                            he's right.  A good engineer
                                            can adapt pretty quickly to any
                                            type of project.  It just takes
                                            the ability to learn.  I
                                            actually think "I can do anything"
                                            is very healthy attitude.  Pretty
                                            much all successful startups
                                            involve doing stuff that is new,
                                            stuff nobody may have experience
                                            in.  Only being interested in
                                            narrow specialized problems is
                                            the attitude of a peon.
                                            Of course, employers may not see
                                            it that way, because peons are
                                            what they are probably trying to
                                            \_ It's a given that you can
                                               learn and adapt if you went
                                               to a school like Cal. That's
                                               quite different from "I
                                               need someone who can do XYZ
                                               job". If I need someone to
                                               design my embedded operating
                                               system I don't look at this
                                               guy and think "Well, he'll
                                               learn this." Not on my dime
                                               he won't. He may never or
                                               he may decide it bores him.
                                               I want someone good at it with
                                               experience or else someone with
                                               demonstrated interest in
                                               the topic and then only
                                               for a lower level position.
                                               Will I higher someone who
                                               Will I hire someone who
                                               seems smart to learn it?
                                               Maybe, but not if he tells
                                               me "It doesn't matter"
                                               what he works on. The
                                               phrasing is very important.
                                               "I have been able to handle most
                                               challenges I have faced so far,
                                               while working fast-paced
                                               environments where we all
                                               wore many hats" is not the
                                               same as "I can do everything
                                               and I don't care what I do."
                                               See the difference?
                                               wore many hats and I'd love
                                               to learn more about embedded
                                               systems and OS design. I
                                               took a course that used VxWorks
                                               in college and I'd like to
                                               build on that, but I never had
                                               the chance at my current job"
                                               is not the same as "I can do
                                               everything and I don't care
                                               what I do." See the difference?
                                               Of course this guy cares
                                               what he does and no he is
                                               not good at everything. His
                                               response seemed lazy and
                                               sloppy to me.
                                               \_ Different styles, same
                                                  semantics. You seem like
                                                  a superficial prick who
                                                  gets a kick out of driving
                                                  a nice car.
                                                  \_ I beg to differ. One
                                                     expresses an interest in a
                                                     certain field. The other
                                                     is sloppy, lazy, naive,
                                                     and pompous. Hiring
                                                     managers want to hire
                                                     people interested in what
                                                     they do and perhaps what
                                                     the company does. I
                                                     want this guy to get
                                                     a job. I am trying to help
                                                     him. He's been at it a
                                                     year on his own and a
                                                     lack of focus seems to
                                                     be why he's having a
                                                     tough time finding and
                                                     getting a job he wants.
                                                     Don't hate on me for
                                                     trying to help a
                                                     fellow CSUA'er.
                                                     \_ hey thanks for the
                                                        feedback. I get your
                                                        point. Yes I'm a
                                                        pompous jerk online
                                                        but you'll never see
                                                        that side of me in
                                                        person. Does that
                                                        help?   -pp
                                                        \_ yes, give me your
                                                           name so we know not
                                                           to hire you.
                                                        \_ Not really.
                                                           Final advice:
                                                           Figure out where
                                                           you'd like to work
                                                           and what you'd like
                                                           to do there. If
                                                           videogames are
                                                           totally boring to
                                                           you and you want to
                                                           work on a team
                                                           designing fighter
                                                           jets then search the
                                                           job listings for
                                                           fighter jet
                                                           and look for a fit.
                                                           If you want to
                                                           design fighters, but
                                                           also do not want to
                                                           work for a big
                                                           company like
                                                           Lockheed then look
                                                           at subcontractors
                                                           for Lockheed or for
                                                           a startup competitor
                                                           to Lockheed or a
                                                           small, new group
                                                           just established to
                                                           do new work within
                                                           Lockheed. When
                                                           you find a jet
                                                           fighter startup that
                                                           has jobs open for
                                                           DBA, Java developer,
                                                           and software systems
                                                           engineer figure out
                                                           which is a best fit
                                                           for you and the
                                                           company. Don't apply
                                                           to them all b/c you
                                                           can do them all,
                                                           even if that's true
                                                           at some level. Don't
                                                           apply to videogame
                                                           makers, b/c they
                                                           will sniff out your
                                                           lack of interest.
                                                           They may not hire
                                                           you b/c of it.
                                                           Worse, they might
                                                           hire you and you
                                                           will be miserable,
                                                           will not advance,
                                                           and might get fired.
                                                           Hope this helps!
                                      Preferably backend infrastructure on
                                      scalability, reliability, etc. But you
                                      know what? There is very little need
                                      for computer scientists out there. Most
                                      jobs are "do some web programming in
                                      X language." I can do that too. I work
                                      at a super mega web company. I've done
                                      frontend (yuck), backend, middle-tier,
                                      everything. 10 years of experience. -pp
                                      \_ I would start by searching large
                                         employers in the area then. I just
                                         \_ the thing is, I've worked for large
                                            employers all my life. I'm tired
                                            of large corporation bullshit and
                                            I want to experience little
                                            corporation bullshit.
                                            \_ So you are not just looking for
                                               anything. You want a hardcore
                                               engineering job at a startup
                                               doing infrastructure or
                                               scalability within a short
                                               commute from Pasadena. Good luck!
                                         looked at Caltech, JPL, Edison and
                                         Jacob's Engineering for you and found
                                         the job below. Do you have Oracle
                                         programming experience? You might also
                                         want to look at large hospitals in
                                         the area, or anyone in a growth
                                         industry. Jacob's has an Oracle
                                         Finance programmer type job and Edison
                                         a job for someone with 5 years
                                         experience in Real Time Control and
                                         Monitoring (SCADA), which I assume
                                         you do not. Edison actually has a bunch
                                         of jobs in their Rivergrade office,
                                         which is an easier commute than
                                         Westside for you.
                                   Ask dim to recommend you for a job at JPL...
                                   \_ JPL has a hiring freeze. Dunno why that
                                      job was posted recently. I could find
                                      out. Not too sure about what working
                                      in the OPS Lab is like, but the guy
                                      who leads it is supposed to be prettty
                                      who leads it is supposed to be pretty
                                      bright and is well liked. His name is
                                      Jeff Norris. I can forward a resume.
                                      Be aware this looks like an entry-level
                                      sort of position with likely entry-level
                                      pay. I am going to guess $70-80K,
                                      but that's just me guessing and
                                      maybe it's a lot higher. --dim
                                      Added: The freeze may not apply b/c
                                      this is likely an Early Career Hire,
                                      which we are still allowed to hire.
2009/5/7-14 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52964 Activity:low
5/7     had 3 interviews (over 2 days) that all went well but didn't
        get an offer. I've heard its totally normal and acceptable to
        ask for feedback and/or "what went wrong" or "why didn't I
        get an offer". Is that really true? How should I approach this?
        ask one of the tech people I spoke to? or the recruiter (who
        seems generally unknowledgeable but maybe in a better position
        to get feedback from everyone i spoke to)? thx
        \_ May I ask which companies?
           \_ this was all at one company. its a web agency. I live in nyc.
        \_ Asking why you didn't get the job doesn't hurt.  What are they going
           to do, not hire you?
           \_ GOOG just likes screwing with you
           \_ well, I'm hoping to freelance there in lieu or a fulltime job.
        \_ You can ask, but you're unlikely to get more than a stock
           response, ("We appreciated your skills and experience, but we
           had another candidate who was a better fit.")  -tom
           \_ Yup.  When I was interviewing people, we rejected a lot who were
              completely unqualified, and a few who had other issues (unable to
              form a coherent sentence, etc.); the rest were fine, and we tried
              to pick the best one.  If you think the interviews went well, you
              were probably in the third category, and so they really won't
              be able to tell you more than "you were fine, there was someone
           \_ This is true, most places are concerned about liability issues.
        \_ I interviewed some intern candidates a few months ago and the
           college gave me an eval form to fill out for each candidate, asking
           me to grade them (A,B,C,D,F) on 5-6 topics and had a spot for
           feedback. I gave feedback (e.g. "didn't answer questions clearly",
           "best answer to question X", "didn't seem knowledgable or interested
           in the job", "good grasp of industry issues"). I wish this was more
        \_ I interviewed at this startup where a buddy of mine worked at.
           I kicked ass on the technical interview. I knew the CEO and we
           used to work together when he was a director at our old company.
           Everyone seemed to liked me, and I thought I was going to get
           an offer. The CEO called and said he was sorry but they don't
           have funding for another engineer at the time. I asked my buddy
           and the real answer was everyone liked me EXCEPT this one PhD
           tech lead dude who just didn't like me (he had communications
           problems, or that I was not good enough to get through his
           communications gap). Personally, I thought he was just too smart
           for everyone else.  That's it. All it takes is one person who
           REALLY doesn't want to work with you on a daily basis, period.
           \_ Seems unfair, but almost reasonable.  If the team is small and
              the dude you are going to work with 30 hours a week can't stand
              you, he shouldn't hire you.
              \_ I know, life is not fair, but I really didn't want to work
                 with him 70 hours a week anyways. P.S. what startup compnay
                 allows people to work 30 hours a week?         -pp
                \_ I made up an arbitrary amount of hours you would be working
                   directly with the dude who hates you.
2022/08/07 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2009/4/17-20 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52865 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
        Year-over-year job loss numbers by month since Jan 07
        Sep 08 - Jan 09 were doozies!
        \_ Excellent article with pretty charts. Thanks motd YOU RULE!!!
        \_ Looks like Detroit was fucked from the beginning.
2009/4/16-20 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52853 Activity:low
4/16    I have a subordinate who is sick a lot. I think she's legimately sick
        most of the time (if not all) since she has doctor's notes (and
        even had a surgery once for a problem) but she is sick so often that it
        jeopardizes her ability to get work done and strains her teammates.
        This latest time she was out 3 weeks for bronchitis, which seems
        like an awful long time to me but she does have a doctor's note. She
        has more than once used all of her sick time up and had to go
        on unpaid leave (just to give an idea of frequency). I don't know
        what to do. I feel bad for her, but I have work to do. I am not
        sure if I can reprimand her or what options I have. I am paying
        for a full-time employee but getting 75% time work. Her work is
        good when she is present and she has a long tenure with the company.
        \_ Seems like maybe something HR could help you with.  I know for
           the most part HR tends to be full of people that talk a big
           game, and never really accomplish much, but this is exactly
           the kind of thing that they are supposed to be getting payed for.
           the kind of thing that they are supposed to be getting paid for.
        \_ This can be tough, I had a guy like this, who was a top performer,
           had a kid, then started calling in sick all the time and falling
           way back. I kept reprimanding him for missing deadlines, finally
           wrote him up and threatened to fire him and then he straightened
           out. If I would have had to fire him, I would have felt like a
           heel, but then again, no one told you that management was going
           to be all a bowl of cherries, did they? You should talk to your
           boss first, to make sure they are on board with whatever you are
           going to do.
        \_ People get old.  sucks.  we can't all work 12 hours a day every
           day like a single guy fresh out of school.
2009/2/17-19 [Politics/Domestic/California, Industry/Jobs] UID:52585 Activity:moderate
2/16    So California is going to lay off 20% of employees. Seems like a
        good idea, but won't all those people now get unemployment benefits? So
        we'll be paying something like 60% of their salaries (depends on
        their income) for 0% of their work.
        \_ It's a great idea because we're starving the beast. Who needs
           a big government? Every man should be self reliant for his own
           life style. Ya know, buy your own electric generator and sustain
           your own godamn lifestyle.                   -Republican troll
        \_ 500K people are losing their jobs per month.  Should the government
           tax us more so that no one loses a gov't job?
                 ^who still have jobs,
           \_ Definitely not. The government should tax foreigners who are
              taking most of the wealth that America trickled down to.
        \_ The last time CA had a big layoff was 1974.  I think it's time.
           However, 20000 layoff notices doesn't mean 20000 layoffs.
           \_ Just to be clear: layoffs seem like a good idea, but paying
              people to not work seems like a bad idea. We should layoff
              when the economy is *good* so that people get off of
              unemployment quickly not when the economy is bad and people
              will have trouble finding other work.
              \_ That's very true. We should also save money in the good
                 times to spend in the bad.  Please call me if you have
                 any inkling that any of these two things might actually
                 \_ San Francisco does it. I can't see why the State can't.
2009/1/22-26 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52439 Activity:high
1/22    Layoffs at Microsoft, Intel, IBM.  See, this is part of the problem
        with deflation amid a recession.  When prices crater, companies'
        revenue decreases and people get layoffs.
        \_ Poll: If you're the CEO, would you try to lay off a large
           percentage of your workers, or would you implement changes
           like mandatory vacation or pay cut? Either case will decrease
           morale but it seems for me to make sense to me to cut pay since
           it's darm hard to hire talented engineerss when you need them.
           Then again, I'm not in management so maybe pay cut is a lame
           thing in the first place.                    -dumb engineer
           \_ Maybe the layoffs are an excuse to get rid of dead wood:
              "Lay off your lowest 20% of people, the underperformers."
              Alternately, perhaps they concentrate the layoffs in
              areas where replacement is easy:  leave the engineers,
              fire the salesforce.
              \_ Layoffs *always* get rid of deadwood, unless the company is in
                 a death spiral.  In good times, you get fatty, in slim times,
                 you cut the crap.  Unless of course you're in government.
                 \_ Seriously, here in the government, instead of firing
                    people, we give incentives to leave.  So, the good people
                    take the money and get a job elsewhere.  The deadwood
                    \_ Not all government positions are the same. When you
                       say "here", what is here? There's a huge difference
                       between DMV and NSA. Even within JPL there's a huge
                       difference between people who are launching missions
                       and people who do IT support for people who do missions.
                       \_ You clearly know nothing about how intelligence
                          agencies are staffed.
                          \_ I don't. Please enlighten me.
                             \_ Check out "Spies For Hire" which is a good
                                overview of this topic.  Basically, large
                                portions of "employees" at the big intel shops
                                are actually (extremely expensive) outsourced
                                contractors, a trend which is true across the
                                board in the federal govt. right now.  Also
                                check out SAIC, Booz Allen Hamilton, et al.
                                Random factoids:
                                  - 50% of the clandestine case officers at
                                    CIA are contractors.
                                  - Virtually 100% of the National
                                    Reconnaissance Office (NRO) is contracted
                                  - 70% of all US Intelligence Community funds
                                    are spent on external contracts rather
                                    than internal capabilities.
                                  - Booz Allen Hamilton has 10,000 employees
                                    with Top Secret Codeword clearances
                                \_ The private sector is obviously more
                                   efficient at creating spooks than the public
                                   \_ Your analysis would be correct, except for
                                      the fact that most of the intelligence
                                      contractors are massive barrels of FAIL.
                                   \_ Your analysis would be correct, except
                                      for the fact that most of the
                                      intelligence contractors are massive
                                      barrels of FAIL.
                \_ BTW, finding a competent salesperson is much harder than
                   finding a competent engineer. Sales also has a more
                   direct effect on the bottom line. These two reason are
                   why salespeople make more money than engineers despite
                   the perception that they are "dumb leeches".
                   \_ Good salespeople make more money. Bad salespeople
                      get fired.
                      \_ What happens to bad engineers?
                         \_ They usually hang on much longer than bad
                            \_ #t. Bad engineers are hard to weed out
                               because they tend to get close to management
                               and management is nicer to people who are
                               loud and social (vs. those that are technically
                               good). These are the same people who move
                               up the chain and manage more bad engineers.
                               The plus side is that they create more job
                               opportunities for even more engineers who
                               have to fix up 20 year old legacy code. Heck
                               50% of the engineering jobs in Silicon Valley
                               are systems integration, QA, and bug fixing.
                               \_ One of the most depressing attitudes at
                                  Berkeley is the one that social skills
                                  and coding skills are diametically opposed.
                                  It is possible (in fact, extremely desirable)
                                  to have both.
                                 \_ Sure. But the reality is that serious
                                    coding is a rather isolating and time-
                                    consuming activity. This doesn't lend
                                    itself to practicing social skills.
                                    I've noticed a definite correlation
                                    between sociability and low engineering
                                    skill.  The sociable ones make up for
                                    their lack of engineering prowess by
                                    talking a lot and getting others to
                                    give them insights.  Or they constantly
                                    make noise and are visible to management
                                    even though in reality their antics are
                                    a waste of time (theirs and others)
                                    if you compare it to the quiet engineer
                                    who just Gets Shit Done(TM) because he
                                    is smart enough to figure stuff out.
                                    Of course, the noisy visible stuff is
                                    pretty much what a manager is supposed
                                    to do; but management is really a
                                    separate career to engineering.
                                    Then there's marketing, which has few
                                    performance metrics compared to sales
                                    and engineering...
                                    \_ Actually, I disagree.  The "silent"
                                       serial killer coder types are actually
                                       among the worst to work with for
                                       other engineers.  A primary reason for
                                       this is their distorted view of their
                                       own intelligence and value, and their
                                       inability to listen to other people.
                                       One of the worst jobs I ever had was
                                       populated with these "silent geniuses,"
                                       and they spent so much time being
                                       impressed with their own genius that
                                       they forgot to produce a marketable
                                       \_ I agree with you. Most of the
                                          best engineers have good people
                                          skills. Not all of them, of
                                          course. They are willing to talk
                                          to people to bounce ideas around
                                          and they are receptive to criticism.
                                          Engineers should pay more attention
                                          to scientists. Most scientists
                                          are extremely smart just like
                                          engineers and yet also more
                                          social. Would you say Feynman
                                          was a bad scientist because he
                                          was social? Of course not, so
                                          why make the same assumption
                                          about engineers? If the social
                                          engineers are the ones getting
                                          ahead then maybe you should pay
                                          attention to that. The few true
                                          "quiet geniuses" I know who
                                          likely are affected with something
                                          like Aspberger's get taken
                                          advantage of. That doesn't mean
                                          the ones who do not display that
                                          quality are not just as competent
                                          or add less value to the
                                          organization. What adds more
                                          value to the company? A bad
                                          engineer like Steve Jobs or a
                                          good one like Steve Wozniak? I
                                          can tell you they are both very
                                          successful but one got taken
                                          advantage of and the other made
                                          the most of his talents. Try to
                                          be the latter.
                                          \_ But Jobs's value isn't
                                             really as an engineer, that's
                                             the point.  Jobs uses other
                                             people and makes judgement calls.
                                             That's what a manager/executive
                                             is supposed to do.
                                             Wozniak did ok. But ultimately Woz
                                             was replaceable and Jobs is not,
                                             \_ This is the key. Good
                                                engineer or not, Jobs added
                                                more value to the organization.
                                                It wasn't that he was
                                                "loud and social" which
                                                made his career a success.
                                                What Bitter Engineer needs to
                                                realize is that some of the
                                                people he is badmouthing are
                                                adding more to the
                                                organization than he is
                                                and that just because they
                                                are "loud and social" does
                                                not automatically make
                                                them bad engineers anymore
                                                than it makes Feynman a
                                                bad scientist. He needs to
                                                be less jealous, realize what
                                                is contributing to their
                                                success, and learn from it.
                                                Otherwise, he will always
                                                be Bitter Engineer With
                                                Feelings of Jealousy and
                                                Smug Superiority stuck in
                                                a crappy role while other
                                                move on up.
                                             because Jobs had the market
                                             vision.  Jobs successfully
                                             judges human desirability of
                                             products.  It's a lot different
                                             than just making a faster CPU or
                                             a cost-effective highway bridge.
        \_ Microsoft is sitting on more cash than some sovereign nations.
           They're just using this opportunity to get rid of dead wood.
        \_ In my econ classes we learned that most people would prefer
           layoffs to pay cuts when given the choice and just hope they
           are not the ones being cut. Presumably this is because they
           think they are more valuable than their peers and will be kept.
           There is some truth to this (see: dead wood) but most people
           also consider themselves better-than-average drivers
           \_ Most people are better-than-average drivers.  Learn your
              medians and means.
              \_ I know the difference between median and mean. I doubt
                 most people are better-than-average drivers.
2009/1/6-7 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52328 Activity:high 57%like:52332
1/6     Sanjay Gupta?  Really?
        \_ But inside he is as white as KKK's white satins sheets.
        \- a friend of mine was in a lot of classes with him
           in high school. apparently he was kind of a sociopath,
           but evidently sociopaths make good neurosurgeons.
           it's too bad he didnt pick AGAWNDE.
           \_ Isn't everyone in high school kind of a sociopath?
        \_ Indians have a core competency (+2) in Medicine.
           \_ well they sure can't code or sink pirates
           \_ The Danes have +2 hitpoint in axe and in bezerk mode.
              \_ +5 to hp and Str if we're drinking Akvaavit.
           \_ The Asians have +1 intellect and -4 in shield
           \_ Only if you mean getting degrees. In my experience they aren't
              necessarily good doctors. At least clinicians. Surgeons might
              be something else entirely. Not enough experience to say.
              \_ My Indian GP rules. --white guy
                 \_ i pick white doctors.
2008/12/4-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Industry/Jobs] UID:52166 Activity:nil
12/4    Maybe you should have the CSUA initiate an ongoing CS project it could
        be known for, and thereby have more of a raison d'etre for the hardware
        choices.  For example a game development thing open to any and only
        members.  It could perhaps offer experience/tutelage in more practical
        aspects of CS than the academic stuff, but not just pointless IT
        exercises like you guys seem to be focused on now.
        \_ Not a bad idea, but last time we started projects, they died from
           neglect. --toulouse
           \_ So do something small.  Get an ipod touch and have an iphone
              development contest.  Give people 1 month to come up with
              something cool and give away the touch to the top prize.
              The CSUA should be all about getting people interested in
              CS.  There was a time when "having a unix computer that was
              on the internet" was a good way to give people an incentive
              to learn about cool computer stuff.  That day is long gone.
           \_ The lottery scheduler was the last project I remember. What
              other projects were there? -crufty-alum
        \_ Didn't help the XCF.  (RIP)
           \_ Well, maybe their project and club is too boring.  CSUA starts
              from being a social club; a project like this would have to
              be lightweight enough to keep people interested as an aside from
              their school work.  I don't think some OS research project is
              appropriate, for example.
           \_ XCF had other problems, but honestly, CSUA is getting less
              and less relevant these days.
        \_ Maybe you can start by organizing small groups interested in
           contributing some feature to an open source project. People working
           alone or towards a non-well-defined goal tend to be unmotivated.
2008/11/25-12/2 [Industry/Jobs] UID:52104 Activity:nil
11/25   I just received a cold email in my LinkedIn account from a head hunter
        about a hot opportunity at a well-funded startup and blah blah.  Head
        hunters still do this these days?  Aren't there a lot of engineers out
        there looking for jobs?  I'm not a hot-shot with an impressive resume
        or anything.
        \_ There's a ton of people looking for jobs which makes it very hard
           to find someone remotely qualified for a position.  It's amazing
           how many shitty shitty engineers there are out there.
        \_ Headhunters make money by placing people.  Recruiters will always
           be with us.
        \_ I have started getting more interest in my resume as well, after
           about six months of nothing. Which startup, do you mind saying?
           \_  -- OP
2008/11/25-12/1 [Academia/Berkeley, Industry/Jobs] UID:52100 Activity:nil
11/25   tom i don't think you are going to retire tomorrow and get rehired
        at the same pay while collecting retirement, but it sure looks bad
        when other UC employees do:
        \_ And?  It looks bad when corporate execs take huge golden parachutes
           for running their companies into the ground, too.  I don't
           support either practice.  -tom
           \_ That's shareholders' problem, not mine. However, public
              employees are paid by us all. Rehiring retirees at higher
              salaries is a crime against the taxpayer and thus the people.
              \_ I agree.  Will you shut up now?  -tom
                 \_ You do realize that there are at least three people
                    participating in this thread, right?
                    \_ Hard to keep track of all you anonymous cowards.  -tom
2008/11/19-23 [Transportation/Car, Industry/Jobs] UID:52041 Activity:nil
11/19   Toyota to lay off temporary workers in US.  are we screwed now?
        \_ When GM goes under, they'll rehire them.
        \_ HAN: (over speaker) Now let's blow this thing and go home!
           \_ I know you don't believe in technical indicators, but today
              the S&P 500 very nicely bounced off of its Oct 2002 low.
2008/11/19-23 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:52039 Activity:kinda low
11/19   Jing Hua Wu, the engineer who police say fatally shot three executives
        at a Santa Clara startup company last week just hours after being
        fired, spent the last few years amassing a large portfolio of
        investment properties.
        Stick lolz under this.  I dare you.
        \_ Advice to executives: don't meet with someone you just fired.
        \_ Waiting for the Chico CCW guy to say something useful here <----
        \_ And he said he couldn't afford a private attorney.
           \_ mebbe he was just being a cheapazz
              \_ maybe he lost his shirt on all his investments
                 \_ and his wife was recently laid off
        \_ This guy is kind of my hero, I have fantasized about shooting my
           boss many times (but never actually go through with it, at least
           not so far...).
           \_ You are so hard.  Can I have your babies?
              \_ Spread your legs and embrace his hardness.
              \_ I think you are mistaken about this guy's intentions. He does
                 not seem to be attempting to come off as "hard".  Or, at least
                 he certainly isn't.  He's coming off more as the "you took my
                 swingline stapler" guy from office.  Do you think it is "hard"
                 to have fantasies about killing people?  I'm sure that all men
                 (/boys) have them at some point.  Or are you SO above all that.
                 'cause if so, i'm very impressed.  You are so superior, can I
                 to have fantasies about killing people?  I'm sure that all
                 men (/boys) have them at some point.  Or are you SO above
                 all thatscause if so, i'm very impressed.
                 You are so superior, can I
                 have your babies?
                 \_ No I think someone is trying to be hard when they cheer
                    that someone went into an office and killed 3 people.
                    \_ lulz
              \_ Can you take my thick 8 inches?
           \_ I am fully erect.
                 \_ maybe maybe maybe who cares.  He murdered 3 people.
                    Let him fry.
                    \_ Agreed. -sf liberal
2008/11/17 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Industry/Jobs] UID:52022 Activity:low 77%like:51992
11/14   Angry Lead Test Engineer shoots boss, CEO, gets away in a rented car:
        \_ you mean angry Lead Test Engineer, whatever that is
        \_ Unfortunately, it looks like they caught him:
           Why didn't he run?
           \_ Odds are it was a crime of passion/temp. insanity. He didn't
              run because he was probably in shock.
              \_ he got fired in the morning, left to get a 9mm, came back in
                 the afternoon for a meeting with his superiors, and shot all
                 three dead.
                 \_ yeah it wasnt a crime of shock.  he got fired.  he asked
                    to have a meeting with the three people he thought were
                    involved in his firing.  he killed them all, left
                    the building.
                    \_ Not interested in defending the dude. Just saying that
                       he probably didn't run because he hadn't planned it out
                       that far.
2008/11/4-5 [Reference/RealEstate, Industry/Jobs] UID:51819 Activity:nil
11/4    A different kind of detention:
        "Living rent-free in apartments and hotels, they are permitted to roam
        San Francisco and the surrounding area. They continue to draw their
        salaries, and each also receives $1,200 per month in witness fees,
        more than the monthly salary of at least one detained seaman."
        "Some of them are going to school to learn English."
        Life under detention is good, man.
2008/10/30-31 [Industry/Jobs] UID:51749 Activity:nil
10/30   Top 100 companies to work for. Yahoo is higher than Google!
        \_ I wonder who owns HotJobs, the people who make that list.
        \_ Having worked at both PwC and Apple, my guess is that this list
           is significantly worse than "random".
2008/10/27-30 [Politics/Domestic/California, Industry/Jobs] UID:51698 Activity:nil
10/27   Tech layoff list
        \_ Qimonda is laying off 3000 people? I have never even heard of these
           guys before. The funniest thing is that two different companies
           have contacted me via LinkedIn to see if I wanted to interview
           for a VP job at their startup just in the last week or so.
           \_ Qimonda is a German company. Is this supposed to be a world-wide
              list of layoffs or something?
2008/9/30 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:51331 Activity:moderate
9/30    What happened to the dot-com bailout? Also, dans' Slide is totally
        screwed. The worst place to be is a late-stage company with a high
        expense rate, selling products primarily into the U.S. market,
        \_ I'm not sure why you mention Slide.  It's not a focus of the url
           you have posted.  I always thought Slide was a bizarre expensive
           vanity project of one of the Paypal founders.
2008/8/21-26 [Academia/GradSchool, Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:50921 Activity:nil
8/21    So I am trying to apply for a senior/staff job position at this
        place and I'm wondering if I should apply directly, or ask a
        headhunter to represent me. Mind you, I'm an old fart and have had
        a lot of bad experiences where the company gave me a hard time
        during the interview process and negotiation process. On the other
        hand I've had one really good experience where the headhunter did
        everything she could to negotiate with the company and got me the
        exact salary I asked for and the job I wanted. Obviously, I don't
        have a lot of data points, but I wonder in general, is it good/bad
        to ask a headhunter to represent me? I can see tons of arguments
        from both sides and I'm just wondering what you guys think. Thanks.
        \_ When did this trend of starting with "So" start?
        \_ الله أَكْ!
2008/7/17-23 [Science/Electric, Industry/Jobs] UID:50607 Activity:nil
7/17    CS degrees no longer paying off:
        \_ thanks for the url.  but what i got was that she was an expensive
           db admin from a telco and her advice for job security was to have
           m4d c0d1NG sk1ll5
        \_ CS has always been a field where you have to agressivly stay
           current and you have to save for those lean years where jobs
           are tough.  Staying current has never been easier and frankly
           if you don't have a good project that you could waste a year
           or two on you aren't a good CS person. -mid 30s/no kids/no mortgage
           \_ Staying current is not easy for someone like me with two kids,
              timewise.  -- late 30s, wife & two kids, mortgage
              \_ Completely true, but it's part of the job.  Actually, it's a
                 part of most well-paid jobs.
               \_ Just switch to management. -- early 40s phb, w & k, mortgage
           \_ "And in information technology, a portfolio of hands-on
              experience with programming is a really good thing to have."
              \_ Except if you're in Google, experience is a LIABILITY.
                 They hate people with experience. They want young,
                 energetic, optimistic, hard working (e.g. willing to work
                 70 hours a week min). They hate old farts and they even
                 start old farts at the SAME LEVEL as newbies for a year
                 so that they can prove themselves. However, promotion is
                 based on co-worker kissing each other's ass, so it's an
                 environment that is very old fart unfriendly.          -G
                 \_ Do you ever shut up?
                    \_ No and FUCK YOU. Larry larry larry larry larry!!!
2008/7/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Industry/Jobs] UID:50537 Activity:high
7/11    Regarding the below discussion about "overpaid" government
        employees, here is a result of a search on all programmers
        who work for the State Board of Equalization:
        As you can see, the pay is below industry standard.
        \_ You know who makes way too much in California?  Firefighters.
           Screw those guys.  Just as soon as they're done fighting the 3000
           simultaneous fires going on now all over the state and turning
           my sunset a pleasant red, I expect a full auditing of their
           overtime and massive firings.
           \_ If they have to work that much overtime then maybe they need
              to hire more firefighters. However, I bet the unions won't
              allow that. There are lots of people lining up to be
              firefighters and there are no positions to be had, yet these
              guys work crazy overtime (which has to be unsafe). They
              won't accept making their base salary amount, though, which
              is what they'd have to take if enough were hired.
        \_ My take all along has been that IT is one of the *few* areas that
           the government underpays, which is probably why so many of you
           think that government pay is low.
           \_ Never worked for the government I see.
              \_ Never lived in DC I see.
           \_ Show me a job title and employer where the pay is high then:
              All I see is mediocre (at best) pay levels.
              \_ How about an OC detective making $221K?
                 \_ Unsourced anecdotal evidence is pretty weak. I presented
                    you with a database with tens of thousands of salaries,
                    now go make your case.
                    \_ Happy?
                       "The average salary for federal employees is
                       $60,517... the Washington, DC area has an average
                       salary of $78,593."
                       "The top overtime recipient was sheriff's
                       investigator Theodore R. Harris, who made $120,000
                       in overtime, bringing his total pay to $221,000"
                       (Source: [la times])
                       "City workers' average salaries will reach about
                       $68,850 for civilians and $93,800 for sworn police
                       and fire by July - placing them in the upper ranks
                       of comparable cities and far higher than
                       private-sector workers."
                       (Source: [daily news])
                       "What was not reported was her annual salary,
                       which, according to a database published by the
                       Daily News, is $104,000.  Another DWP mother in
                       attendance was Wendy Ramallo, the wife of Joe
                       Ramallo, who, according to the database, makes
                       $167,478 per year.

                       By the way, if those two drove to the meeting, they
                       probably drove a car you own.  You see, all DWP
                       employees with six-figure incomes get, in addition
                       to their salary, a free car, paid for by you, the
                       taxpayer/ ratepayer.

                       Sara Perez and Jo-Del Navarro also spoke out, but
                       they "only" make $86,025.60 and $72,620 per year."
                       "As the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power
                       seeks a hefty taxpayer rate hike, a Daily News
                       review of salary data shows the average utility
                       worker makes $76,949 a year - or nearly 20 percent
                       more than the average civilian city worker.

                       More than 1,140 of the utility's employees - or
                       about 13 percent - take home more than $100,000 a
                       year. And General Manager Ron Deaton, who is on
                       medical leave, rakes in $344,624 a year making him
                       the city's highest-paid worker.

                       DWP salaries are on average higher than city and
                       far higher than private-sector workers'"
                       (Source: [laist])
                       LWDP database showing painters making $79K:
                       Feel free to search for your own job titles at:
                       Even "CUSTODIAL SERVICES ATTENDANTS" make $46K.
                       "Have you heard about the fire captain in the city
                       of San Diego who made $242,138 in one year? How
                       about the city lifeguard who made $138,787? It's
                       all true - and if you thought the city of San Diego's
                       pensions were generous, wait until
                       you see how much some city workers are being paid."
                       "For years, the city's powerful unions and many
                       city officials have claimed city workers are
                       underpaid - using the official salary
                       schedules published in the budget as their
                       evidence. It is time that the public be told
                       exactly what city workers are paid. Taxpayers
                       should not have to rely on an institute to dig up
                       the information using W-2 data. City departments
                       (such as the Fire Department) also put "phantom
                       positions" in their budget to hide off-budget
                       expenses such as excessive overtime. Mayor Jerry Sanders
                       recently discovered that 400 or more salaried positions
                       are not even included in the budget each year."
                       (Source: [sd union tribune])
                       \_ "The average salary for federal employees is
                          $60,517... City workers' average salaries will reach
                          about $68,850 for civilian workers..." Sorry, those
                          numbers just don't seem that exorbitant to me, do
                          they to you? Perhaps there are a few departments where
                          employees are overpaid (and it sounds like DWP is
                          one of them) but to extrapolate from that to all
                          they to you? Perhaps there are a few departments
                          where employees are overpaid (and it sounds like DWP
                          is one of them) but to extrapolate from that to all
                          government employees is bad logic. I do not
                          begrudge someone getting paid 2X a normal salary
                          if they do 80 hrs/week of work and I don't
                          understand why you would either. It does sound like
                          their boss needs to hire someone new, but this is
                          their boss needs to hire an extra person, but this is
                          not always possible, as should be obvious if you
                          stop to think about for even a second.
                          \_ 1. It depends on the job being done. For an
                                accountant maybe not. For a simple clerk,
                                painter, or custodian then yes. The
                                argument was that gov't employees are
                                underpaid and that is clearly untrue. They
                                don't have to have 'exorbitant' salaries
                                for that to be untrue. I make $100K and I
                                don't have a free car, for instance.
                             2. I gave data for all federal employees, so
                                we don't have to extrapolate.
                             3. Do you really think these people are doing
                                80 hours/week of work based on the hours
                                gov't offices keep and your experiences in
                                working with the city/county? For
                                instance, in San Diego they get every
                                other Friday off. And they are still
                                working crazy OT? No way. It's a farce
                                caused by lax auditing. Why are people who
                                make $100K per year getting any overtime
                                at all? At my company (and most companies)
                                people at that level are exempt and we just
                                suck it up or quit. The article is making
                                a point that "phantom positions" are
                                created to perpetuate this overtime fraud.
                                The gov't will never hire appropriately
                                because it would be akin to a pay cut for
                                the workers. It's easier to continue with
                                the status quo because you have an excuse
                                why you are behind on work (short-staffed)
                                and make the paper salaries seem small.
                             4. Like I said, I have two sisters working
                                for the gov't and it's easy money. My one
                                sister is very honest and she always says
                                she doesn't have enough work to do and
                                asks for more and they tell her she needs
                                to stop working so hard and just enjoy it,
                                except she gets bored. She's an executive
                                secretary (which means she is the personal
                                secretary for a high-level engineer) and
                                she makes $70K. In another 4 years (will
                                have been 20 years) she can retire with
                                50% of her salary and free medical for
                                life. I don't begrudge her that, but let's
                                be honest about how that compares to being
                                a secretary at, say, Wells Fargo (where my
                                mom worked for many years) where those
                                benefits are non-existent and you would be
                                lucky to make $40K in that position. Put
                                the 'government employees are underpaid'
                                thing to rest. At worst, they are
                                compensated as well as anyone else and
                                usually better.
                                \_ You're talking a lot, but you're not
                                   saying anything.
                                   \_ You're a moron who can't read.
                                \_ Since you are the king of making up things
                                   to support your position, I need a lot more
                                   than "the friend of my sister-in-law over
                                   heard at a party" kind of data. Give me a
                                   job description and a state department and
                                   show me a sector of employees in the
                                   in the State of CA database. All of the data
                                   is there for the world to see, surely if
                                   public sector workers are so overpaid, you
                                   can find at least one of them. $60k/yr for
                                   a mid-career teacher, police officer or
                                   skilled craftsman seems very reasonable,
                                   even underpaid, to me. The majority of
                                   local spending is on education, public
                                   safety and public works, so that is where
                                   the majority of employees are going to come
                                   from. The rest of your comments are mostly
                                   not worth replying to, but I will note that
                                   if these jobs are so great, why aren't people
                                   lining up to fill them? There is a chronic
                                   shortage of police officers and teachers in
                                   CA, hardly indication that they are overpaid.
                                   Note that total overtime pay is .4% of
                                   overall salary, so your opinion that
                                   overtime pay in the public sector is
                                   ubiquitous is clearly wrong headed.
                                \_ Plug in "exective assistant" for the
                                   Dept of Water Resources and you will see
                                   pay varies from $39k to $48k.
2008/7/3-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:50456 Activity:nil
7/3     Anyone from Singapore here?  What's the average salary roughly for a
        software engineer with about 5yrs of experience over there?  Thanks.
        \_ I don't know about salaries, but canings are free.
           \_ Is free S&M a taxable benefit in Singapore?
        \_ I actually have some good recent salary info from there, because
           we were thinking about hiring there. Email me if you want the
           info. -ausman
2008/6/19-23 [Computer/Companies/Google, Industry/Jobs] UID:50310 Activity:nil
        Google salary sucks. It's nowhere near the $150-$200k/year
        someone claims on motd.
        \_ Google has a really nice bonus package.
        \_ I think this is a Google recruiter
        \_ yeah gotta agree there. I know google guys who's yearly bonus
           is almost my total salary.
           \_ how typical are your friends @ google?  or are you very poorly
2008/5/18-23 [Industry/Jobs] UID:49995 Activity:low
5/18    My sister is majoring in Information Systems Management at UC Santa
        Cruz (She flunked the math for CS), and is thinking about becoming a
        sys or network admin.  How does one learn that stuff?  Are there any
        good books?  Speaking of which, does anyone need a summer intern
        for such a position? -jrleek
        \_ E-mail me her resume. I was told it's too late now, but if we like
           her we can use her next summer. The next cycle starts in (I
           believe) January. --dim
           \_ jrleek, is she hot? If so, it's best you don't send her
              to dimitrious.
        \_ If she's a flake she's better off trying to find a low end
           coding job.  *In general* programmers go home at the end of the
           day.  Sysadmins *tend* to carry pagers, work 24/7 rotation on-call,
           etc.  And finally, there are different kinds of admins.  Windows?
           Unix?  Networking?  Office support?  Engineering?  Production?
           Does she even have an interest in technology?  If not, she'll be
           happier in the short, mid and long run doing something else even
           if it pays less at first.  She won't advance in a tech field if she
           has no interest in technology.
           \_ I didn't mean to give the impression that she has no interest
              in technology.  And wacky sys admin hours and overwork would
              probably suit her fine.  She's not THAT kind of flake. -op
        \_ System administration is a craft; it's learned by doing.  Her best
           bet would be to find a way to practice sysadmin skills.  At Cal,
           the OCF and CSUA provide such opportunities.  Something similar
           might exist at UCSC, or look for a community or non-profit that
           needs someone to set up machines for them.  -tom
           \_ This is very good advice. She may need to volunteer for a while
              to get the skills down, but she should dive in hands first and
              hit up her big brother for more tips and hints when she hits the
              inevitable wall. Believe it or not, there are entry-level
              SysAdmin jobs, if you're willing to work for experience. --e-red
        \_ Yes, but it's a little late to ask now. Next year? What year
           is she?
           \_ Yeah, I know it's late, but hope springs eternal. She was
              expecting a programming internship, but didn't keep on it and
              they found someone better.  Which is not unusual for her.
              She's a junior, she has a summer next year before she
              graduates though. -jrleek
              \_ We probably could have used her, but I cannot make a
                 budget request now. That had to be done a month ago or
                 more. It's hard to find good students, but I have some
                 1) Why did she want a programming internship if she's
                    not intending to be a s/w engineer? That's a big red
                    flag for anyone hiring for IT positions that are not
                    developer positions.
                 2) Is she really as flaky as you are making her out to be?
                    Your description of her situation and how it came to
                    be does her no favors. Yes, she's young yadda yadda yadda.
                 \_ 1) The programming internship was offered by a relative.
                       And heck, right now she know more about programming
                       And heck, right now she knows more about programming
                       than administration.  It's not like she knows what
                       it's really like to do either as a full time job.
                    2) Eh, as her older brother, I'm probably a little harsh,
                       but yeah, she can be kinda flaky.  It think she'd
                       be fine at a job though.  She has done TAing a such
                       things, that seems to have gone well.
                       but she tends not to follow up on things that she
                       isn't concentrating on right now.  I think she'd
                       probably do ok at a real job, but isn't A-list
                       but yeah, she can be kinda flaky.  I think she'd
                       be fine at a job though.  She has done TAing and such
                       things, and those seem to have gone well.
2008/5/15-16 [Transportation/Car, Industry/Jobs] UID:49947 Activity:nil
5/15    Tired of CS? become a gopher trapper! (appropos of nothing)
        Man, pocket gophers have pretty big heads for their body size.
        \_ Gopher Trapper is a terrible place to work at - ex-Gopher Trapper
        \_ Gopher trapper is a terrible place to work at - ex-Gopher trapper
        \_ I wonder if it's safe to eat your average garden gopher?
        \_ I don't understand why so many ex Gopher Trappers are doing
           non Gopher Trapping stuff when they stop Gopher Trapping.
        \_ Big surprise, Gopher Trapping is better value than
        \_ Big surprise, Gopher Trapping is a better value than
        \_ I don't understand why so many ex Gopher trappers are doing
           non Gopher trapping stuff when they stop Gopher trapping.
        \_ Big surprise, Gopher trapping is a better value than
           masturbating all day to Cuddy.
2008/4/28-5/4 [Industry/Jobs] UID:49850 Activity:nil
4/28    I'd like to find salary info for System Administrators in the
        Los Angeles area based on years of expertise.  I'd appreciate
        suggestions on where to go.
  (for SAGE members, join SAGE)
  (for SAGE members)
2008/3/28 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Industry/Jobs] UID:49594 Activity:nil
3/28    HA HA HA
        "Bush sees Opportunity for Renewed Platitudes in Iraq."
2008/3/17-21 [Computer/SW/Security, Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:49482 Activity:nil
        Former sysadmin says Fed measures not addressing root of problem,
        IBs/banks will eventually be taken to woodshed
        \_ Once again, who cares if he is a sysadmin?
           \_ It dovetails nicely with the background of most of the
              pontificators on the motd.  What's not to like?  We really
              need to get this guy a soda account!
              \_ If sysadmins had run Bear Sterns the company would still
                 be solvent right now.
              \_ He's got tech skills.  I've got tech skills.  Therefore I
                 care what he says about the economy...?  Huh?
                 He may be 100% on the mark but having tech skills does not
                 make his writing on the economy any more interesting.
2008/2/5-7 [Science, Industry/Jobs] UID:49069 Activity:nil
        Salary data points for hotshot programmers.
        \_ Regurgitated TechCrunch anonymous postings don't qualify as "data"
2008/1/24-2/2 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:49009 Activity:nil
1/23    Recruiter question: Say a recruiter got me into a big company and
        got paid for my head count, and I've already stayed 1 year
        (which is the pre-req for most recruiters to get the head count
        bonus). Later I leave the company for a bunch of failed startups
        for a while and eventually a second recruiter enticed me to go
        BACK to the company again, will the second recruiter get paid
        for getting me back?
        \_ Of course!
2008/1/18-23 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:48972 Activity:high
1/18    Slide raises 50M on 500M valuation:
        Notably, the money came from wall street investors, not the valley.
        Also, we're hiring. -dans
        \_ historically how many people actually get jobs/employees
           via motd? my point is probably gives a better
           hit ratio
        \_ do sysadms get less/more options than developers?
           \_ I'm not sure.  Organizationally, the ops branch of the hierarchy
              is parallel to dev.  One thing that makes it hard to compare is
              that our ops team is much smaller than our dev team. -dans
        \_ half a billion?  The crazy is strong.
        \_ the real question is how much are you worth TODAY?
           \_ It's all just paper money and AMT tax absent a liquidity event.
              The direction this suggests we're headed in is more important
              to me. -dans
        \_ ok, you're hiring. How *competitive* are you wrt to stock
           options now that you got more funding that'll dilute options?
           \_ If you know enough to ask that, then you know that dilution
              would be considered secret and subject to NDA.  I have no
              complaints, and I think it's still a good opportunity or I
              wouldn't be promoting it. -dans
              \_ alright let's say I join what % of ownership do I have,
                 0.00000001% for an engineer 2/3/4? What will that amount
                 to when it's acquired? 1/2 mil? 1 mil? 10 mil?
                 \_ Yes, I understand that.  No company with half a clue would
                    disclose those numbers to you without making you sign an
                    NDA.  If you're interested, send me a resume. -dans
                    \_ "... a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a pie!"
                       \_ We can do better than the Richter Scales suggest.
                       \_ I would love to own 1/100th of 1% of GOOG.
                          \_ Um, did you just compare GOOG to Slide?  It is
                             to laugh!
                             \_ No, I was replying to the person who said
                                that a fraction of a fraction of a percent
                                is a waste of time owning. Was that you?
                                Can you follow a conversation in English?
                                Heck, even 1/100th of 1% of Slide is worth
                                50k, which isn't chicken scratch.
                                \_ 50k isn't really much at all.  If you are
                                   working at a startup, putting everything
                                   you've got into it, probably getting less
                                   than market value for your work, AND
                                   you win the IPO lottery (even at a good
                                   company with smart people the odds are
                                   against you) 50k is pretty pathetic.  You
                                   should be able to make that kind of money
                                   by working those overtime hours on a
                                   contracting gig over a year or so.
                                   \_ This is good general advice, but several
                                      points don't apply to Slide:
                                      - Our salary and benefits are at or near
                                        market (though we don't do 401k
                                      - At this point, our odds of a successful
                                        outcome are significantly better than
                                        a typical startup.
                                      - I would expect a new hire to get
                                        appreciably more than 1/100th of a
                                        \_ Don't stomp my changes please.
                                           \_ I didn't. -dans
                                   \_ Unless you are one of those spoiled
                                      rich kids that went to school on mommy
                                      and daddies dime, your first $50k is
                                      *huge*. It allowed me to pay off my
                                      credit card debts, my student loans and
                                      was most of my first down payment. Plus,
                                      this company will be worth much more
                                      if and when it goes public. Also, 1/100
                                      of 1% is a very pessimistic number, it
                                      is probably more like that amount per
                                      year. -self made $M
                                      \_ 50K is a lot of money.  50k on a
                                         long (4 year vest?) high risk
                                         bet that requires you to work 60+
                                         hour weeks however is not a lot of
                                         money.  There are easier, faster,
                                         and more reliable ways to make
                                         50K in this industry.  I'm not
                                         saying that's what people at Slide
                                         are going to get, I'm just saying
                                         if that IS all you get if you spend
                                         2-4 years taking a small startup
                                         public then you got screwed.
                                \_ 50k on paper.  It doesn't mean anything
                                   unless it's liquid. -dans
                                   \_ Actually it does, but unless you have
                                      taken a lot of finance I cannot probably
                                      explain it to you. A big change in your
                                      real net worth is important though, even
                                      if it is not liquid.
                                      \_ It might matter to me in practice if,
                                         e.g. I wanted to use my paper wealth
                                         as leverage, but I've seen lots of
                                         otherwise smart people get burned
                                         trying and failing to do just that.
                                         If you've experienced a big change in
                                         your real net worth, how did you use
                                         what you learned in your finance
                                         classes to your advantage? -dans
                                      \_ I could see this if, e.g. you were to
                                         try to leverage your paper wealth,
                                         but I have little interest in doing
                                         so since I know many people who got
                                         burned by trying and failing to do
                                         so.  Have you experienced a big
                                         change in your real net worth?  Did
                                         you use what you learned in your
                                         finance classes to your advantage?
                                         \_ It should change your risk
                                            profile and cause you to shift
                                            investment assets to compensate
                                            for the gain, to stay properly
                                            diversified. In short.
2007/12/10-14 [Reference/BayArea, Industry/Jobs] UID:48776 Activity:kinda low
12/10   For people in the LA area, what city has the most/best tech
        startup companies? Pasadena? Santa Monica? Burbank?
        \_ Yes. OC, too.
        \_ MySpace is in Beverly Hills.  Though they're also opening a San
           Francisco office RSN. -dans
           \_ Hello there, the 'myspace san francisco office' is ONLY
              sales dudes.  No tech guys.  I mean it.  None.  Unless
              you are a sales dude!  I really doubt sales dudes post to
              the motd.
              \_ You probably have better information than I do.  My,
                 entirely pulled out of my ass, speculation is that they're
                 using the SF office to house the MySpace platform team.
                 Also, if they're just sales, why are they hiring engineers
                 from LookSmart? -dans
                 \_ Because they're taking over the looksmart space and it
                    came with the engineers?
2007/11/13-17 [Industry/Jobs] UID:48633 Activity:moderate
11/13   okay maggots.. free facebook hosting for 1 year
        to first 3500 facebook developers .. joyent
        \_ This sounds interesting.  If anyone uses it, I'd be curious to hear
           about your experience, particularly if you can compare and contrast
           to Amazon's S3/E2C services.  Also, if you're an indie app
           developer with a cool app, check out:
           Basically, Slide promotes indie-apps on Top Friends for free.
           \_ why do we need another middle man? fbml is enough
              \_ I don't think you understand what's being offered.  Top
                 Friends has over 20M users, and we will cross-promote your
                 indie app free of charge.  I don't see how that makes us a
                 middle man.  I suppose you could *pay* our competitor lots of
                 money to do the same thing. -dans
           \_ Can the motd have a "no blatant pimping of your company"
              \_ Why?  To protect your unsullied playground of juvenile crap?
                 To promote more anonymous pimping of companies? -dans
                 \_ We got the message about your company.  I'd rather
                    see more unsullied juvenile crap than see the motd turn
                    into a giant dotcom ad zone.  Let it go.  Anyone who was
                    going to apply already has.  Now you just look desperate,
                    and that's always ugly.  Hire a technical recruiter. -!pp
                    \_ We have a technical recruiter.  She's really cool.  Not
                       everyone reads the motd every day or even every week.
                       If pimping companies bothers you so much, why didn't
                       you bitch about someone pimping facebook and joyent?
                       Also, how the hell do you read a statement that
                       effectively says, "Hey, we will promote your app for
                       free", as "Come work for us?" -dans
                       \_ I think the difference is: (a) you are extremely
                          annoying, and (b) sheer fucking volume: a huge
                          chunk of the motd was devoted to you going on and on
                          about that startup.  Nobody cares. -- ilyas
                          \_ This is precisely my point.  The issue has
                             nothing to do with promotion; its entirely
                             personal.  In a nutshell, I piss off certain
                                                         \_ Piss off is
                                   (surprise surprise) taking yourself far
                                   too seriously.  Eye rolling derision is
                                   probably much closer to how people feel
                                   about you.
                                   \_ Really?  Explain the vitriol? -dans
                             motd.personalities, they will flame me regardless
                             of the content of what I post, and I don't care.
                             P.S. Who made you (or tom or psb, etc, etc.) the
                             arbiter of who does and does not care? -dans
                             \_ Good marketing isn't annoying.
                             \_ Since tom, ilyas, and psb account for a
                                majority of motd posters, I'd say they are
                                the arbiters of who does and does not care.
                                Just how many people do you think really
                                read this stuff anyway?
                                \_ You do realize that there are lots of
                                   people who lurk on the motd, but don't
                                   actually post?  As far as I know, neither
                                   tom nor psb write code.  This being the
                                   Computer Science Undergraduate Association,
                                   not the Computer Sysadmin Undergraduate
                                   Association, I don't take alumni who
                                   graduated (or neglected to graduate) over a
                                   decade ago, work for the UC or one of its
                                   research affiliates, and don't write code
                                   too seriously.  At least, not when it comes
                                   to hiring software developers in private
                                   industry. -dans
                             \_ How many resumes have you gotten from CSUA
                                people in the last month or so? Or do I need
                                to join your company and sign an NDA to get
                                that information?
                                \_ Enough to make the effort worthwhile.  And,
                                   seriously, do you know any company startup
                                   or otherwise that publishes detailed stats
                                   on its recruiting efforts?  Seriously, are
                                   you insane? -dans
                \_ your app build on an app that is built upon a platform
                 that is on the internet.. ceases to be viral.. cancer-
                 nuttin but large tumor growing...
2007/11/3-8 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:48528 Activity:kinda low
11/2    Alright I'm interested dans but how many hours do you work a
        day and do you actually have a life outside your dot com?
        \_ Everyone at Slide works very hard.  I probably average about 60
        \_ Everyone at Slide works very hard.  I probably average about 160
           hours a week, though the last two weeks have been crazy because
                   \_ Really, 22 1/2 hours a day?  Why not go whole hog
                      and claim you work 300 hours a week?
           I had to ship code in time to demo at Google's Campfire One event
           where they officially announced OpenSocial:
           Yes I have a life outside of work.  I'm currently dating a couple
           people, though I do jokingly refer to Slide as my mistress.  I
           usually manage to make it out for drinks with friends at least
           twice a week.  I don't sleep nearly as much as I'd like to, and
           I still have boxes that I haven't unpacked since I moved apartments
           several months ago. -dans
           \_ In 5 years we'll either all be working for dans, or be dead by
              his hand.
              \_ I'm pretty live and let live.  Keep in mind that,
                 statistically, most startups fail.  Personally, I think Slide
                 is at an inflection point where the odds of a successful
                 outcome are appreciably better than a 'typical' startup, but
                 we're still small enough that joining now could still yield a
                 great return, if we succeed. -dans
              \_ I'm pretty live and let live.  Also, keep in mind,
                 statistically speaking, most startups fail.  Personally, I
                 think Slide is at an inflection point where the odds of a
                 successful outcome are appreciably better than a 'typical'
                 startup, but we're still small and risky enough that joining
                 now could still yield a great return, if we succeed. -dans
           \_ I should amend this to say that a startup that offers good
              work/life balance is probably doomed. -dans
        \_ I read the touchy feely NYTIMES article about your founder.
           A question, the dude made a 100 million.  Why is he working?
           I'll spend his money for him if that's the problem.
           \_ You should ask him, but, if I were to speculate, it's just his
              personality.  If he's not working eighteen hours a day, he's not
              happy.  I know a number of successful entrepreneurs like this,
              e.g. Adam Sah, one of the Inktomi kids from Berkeley, now the
              impresario behind iGoogle Gadgets. -dans
              \_ Do you really talk like this in person?
                 \_ Like what?  I guess that's a yes. -dans
                 \_ Yes he does.  It's pretty damn funny too.
2007/10/27-11/1 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:48462 Activity:nil
10/27   Anyone have experience with phone 66 Punch block wiring?  I have a
        small office I need to fix some phone jacks on--and I have no idea how
        the rows of pins are connected electrically, or how to safely branch a
        single line from the phone company into multiple jacks in the office.
        \_ Cabling by David Barnett ; David Groth ; Jim McBee
2007/9/14-18 [Industry/Jobs] UID:48072 Activity:low
9/14    Hey Tom or whomightknow, how much does something like this: pay ?
        It says "commensurate w/ experience" but is cal really going
        to pay 6 figures for this?
        \_ It's an odd listing.  It probably means they'll hire it as
           PA III or PA IV depending on who they get in the pool.  -tom
        \_ They didn't really say they would pay market rates.
        \_ Given they want experience as team lead and project management,
           it will probably go as a pa3/4 as tom said but it is chock full
           of low end crap like writing html and configuring apache.  It
           will very likely pay over 100k to the right person but not much
           more.  If the job itself sounds interesting to you, then go for
           it and see what happens.  At worst you'll waste some interview
           time and won't take the job.  Don't apply for UC jobs for the
           money, there isn't any.   -!tom but knows a bit about cal, also
        \_ While I had not heard of this particular job opening, I doubt
           it'll pay six figures. Also, this particular position will suck
           out souls of lesser individuals.
2007/9/13-14 [Industry/Jobs] UID:48052 Activity:kinda low
9/13    I think this thread is hilarious:
        Someone totally needs to start a "Buy Emily a Belt" group. -dans
        \_just bumps me to my profile, do i need to be in the berkeley
          group to see it or something?
          \_ Hurm.  It's the developer discussion board.  You may need to
             have the developer application installed.  Try hitting:
2007/9/12-14 [Transportation/Car, Industry/Jobs] UID:48033 Activity:nil
9/12    Woz sells 350Z to raise money for Cal
2007/9/10-13 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Industry/Jobs] UID:47988 Activity:low
9/10    cop gone bad (or always bad)
        \_ yes, all cops are always bad automatically.  any bad thing one
           cop does, they all do.  sheesh.
        \_ My anecdotal experience of LA cops: (a) fat, (b) wouldn't lift a
           finger to help you, (c) love to hit people without reason. -- ilyas
           \_ my personal experience with ~ six LAPD and UCPD cops over the
              years:  professional, polite, helpful.  CHP cops on the other
              hand ...
        \_ What's the loud annoying clicking noise? Also, what is the law
           here; are you allowed to refuse to answer questions? I guess this
           kid isn't too smart trying to debate stuff with a cop. Just shut
           up, kiss the cop's ass, and he'd probably not have to go through
Also, what is the law
           here; are you allowed to refuse to answer questions? I guess this
           kid isn't too smart trying to debate stuff with a cop. Just shut
           up, kiss the cop's ass, and he'd probably not have to go through
2007/9/2-7 [Industry/Startup, Industry/Jobs] UID:47874 Activity:high
9/2     what are the hot new startups in SF nowadays?
        \_ sixapart, hi5, bebo, digg
           \_ I agree with you there with bebo... but why would you want
              to work at 6a?  they don't pay very much, all their drama
              is all over the internet, i actually have a lot of inside
              info about this company.
              \_ He didn't ask where was a good place to work, did he?
                 I forgot, I should have added Linden Lab, though I personally
                 would not consider working there, they are a "hot new
                 \_ You're right, I just assumed he would want to work
                    somewhere that didn't suck.  My mistake!
           \_ sixapart is definitely not new, and arguably not hot.  Unless
              you think of imploding bodies as hot.  hi5 maybe, bebo yes,
              digg yes.  I'd add slide to the list, though I'm obviously
              biased, and you should ping me if you want to work here. -dans
              \_ What do these companies do? I haven't heard of any of them.
                 \_ sixapart: originally built around MoveableType blogging
                    software.  Sells MoveableType as well as hosted version
                    of MoveableType called TypePad.  Acquired Livejournal
                    several years ago.
                 \_ hi5: yet another social network.
                    \_ Not just any, the 11th most visited site on the Interweb-
                 \_ bebo: yet another social network.  Big in the UK.  Rumors
                    were flying about a Yahoo buyout a few months back, but
                    this did not happen.
                 \_ digg: collaborative news/content sharing and filtering
                    site, basically Slashdot for the masses.  Has a *lot* of
                 \_ slide: we make embeddable widgets and applications that
                    people like to add to their social network profiles and
                    web sites.  We have a *lot* of users.
                    \_ Thanks for the responses. No offense to you, but
                       these startups seem to be rather lame. I wouldn't
                       want to get a PhD in CS in order to code for social
                       networking web sites. Is there anything really
                       groundbreaking or novel out there?
                       \_ Why not come with an idea yourself?  (Not trying to
                          be snarky).  I had what I thought was a really
                       \_ Why not come up with an idea yourself?  (Not trying
                          to be snarky).  I had what I thought was a really
                          good idea for a startup, but honestly I don't have
                          the courage to bet 5 years of my life on it. -- ilyas
                          \_ If you fail, it will probably take you less than
                             five years to fail.  Also, if you consider
                             factors other than money, e.g. experience, it's
                             not a zero-sum proposition. -dans
                             \_ yeah, I'm sure working infinite hours for
                                shit money in a failed venture is a great
                                positive life experience.
                                \_ Like you would know. -dans
                                 \_ I know.  It sucks.
                                    \_ I respectfully disagree, but then your
                                       experience was probably different than
                                       mine. -dans
                                \_ Believe it or not, it is considered really
                                   great on your resume if you have started
                                   your own company and failed.
                                   \_ I believe it.  I also believe that
                                      a failed startup is a huge drain on
                                      your life and there are plenty of other
                                      productive things you could be doing
                                      with your life that don't involve
                                      such suckitude.
                                      \_ Only a fool would enter into a
                                         startup expecting to fail.  Also, as
                                         I mentioned in my comment above, the
                                         experience is not necessarily one
                                         that can be generalized as
                                         'suckitude'. -dans
                                         \_ 90% of startups fail, so only a
                                            fool would enter into one expecting
                                            to succeed.  -tom
                          \_ Don't be a douche bag.  Quoting cute statistics
                             that you probably can't reliably source doesn't
                             say much for your credibility on the subject.
                             Last I checked, you never left the cradle of
                             academia. -dans
                                            \_ Yet somehow, two of the three
                                               startups I worked for went
                                               public. -ausman
                             \_ Last I checked, I had 10 years of industry
                                experience before I started working at
                                Berkeley, and you had no fucking clue.  Let
                                me check again...yup, still true.  -tom
                                \_ 10 years where, doing what, if you don't
                                   mind sharing?
                                   \_ I do mind sharing personal details with
                                      anonymous cowards.  Send me mail if you
                                      really care.  -tom
                                      \_ Whatever.  You made a claim about
                                         your tremendous clueful experience.
                                         If you aren't willing to back that
                                         up, then just whatever, as usual.
                                         Either way, changing tapes 15 years
                                         ago has nothign to do with the
                                         world of industry today.
                       \_ I'd argue that, unless you're going to spin you're
                          thesis into a startup, you wouldn't want to get a
                          PhD in CS in order to code for most startups.  Since
                          I haven't worked for any social networking sites, I
                          can't speak directly from experience on the relative
                          interestingness of the problems they face.  As for
                          Slide, widgets may not sound like something terribly
                          PhD in CS in order to code for most startups.
                          I haven't worked for any social networking sites,
                          I can't speak directly from experience on the
                          relative interestingness of the problems they
                          face.  As for Slide, widgets may not sound
                          like something terribly
                          interesting, but, having seen how the sausage is
                          made, there are interesting challenges.  In
                          particular, gracefully scaling to support the volume
                          of traffic we handle is non-trivial.  It also raises
                          the question, what kind of interesting conclusions
                          and relations can you draw from such a huge data
                          set? -dans
                          P.S. I think Google's BigTable is pretty novel, but
                          it requires several layers of Google infrastructure
                          to recreate.  I'm curious to see if couchdb, which
                          looks superficially similar to BigTable, might serve
                          the same purpose.  Okay, its not a startup, but it's
                          \_ If a bomb took out myspace, facebook, bebo,
                             slide, friendster, digg, no one important
                             \_ *shrug*.  Are you trying to make a point or
                                just trolling?  Personally, I think the ideal
                                \_ No, I think my statement is 100% accurate
                                   \_ Like who, Senator Ted "the internet is a
                                      series of tubes" Stevens? -dans
                                      \_ No one important cares about the
                                         internets anyway. It is all just
                                         a big waste of time and will never
                                         amount to anything.
                                of the net as a democratic medium is a
                                worthwhile one to shoot for.  I guess you
                                feel otherwise. -dans
2007/8/20 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/Apps/Media] UID:47664 Activity:low 66%like:47639 80%like:47673
08/20   It's the electrical engineer theme song:
2007/7/26-8/1 [Industry/Jobs] UID:47431 Activity:moderate
7/26    [ Restored ]
        Don't know if it's the weather or what, but I am just damn tired.
        Anyone else out there in a funk, or should I get screened for Lyme
        \_ I feel run-down too, but I live in NM.
        \_ I definitely do.
        \_ Yeah, I've been tired the past couple of weeks also. I figured it
           was because of the humidity.
        \_ you should get a dog!
        \_ I am damn tired too, but that is b/c I just finished the last
           day of the bar exam.
           \_ Congrats! How'd that go?
              \_ Well, I survived. Hopefully I passed, but I won't
                 know until Nov 17.
                 \_ Please let us know how this goes, as well as whether you
                    feel it was worth going through law school, etc. I keep
                    being told that engineers do well in law school. Tempted
                    to go down that road myself....
                    \_ I really enjoyed LS despite the difficulty. For
                       me, it was a great career move, esp. considering
                       the *huge* salary jump and increased job security.
                       Some engineers and scientists do do well in LS,
                       but I can't say that every engineer or scientist
                       does well. Some people have a hard time adjusting
                       to the "socratic" method and the reality that your
                       grade in the class is based on a single final exam.
                       \_ Is it really that huge a salary jump? Mid-career
                          programmers make $100k, except for the very few
                          partners in big firms, don't mid-career lawyers
                          make a similar amount?
                          programmers make $100-120k, except for the very few
                          partners in big firms, don't starting lawyers
                          make less than that?
                          make about that?
                          \_ The starting salary for a 1st year is
                             between $135K-$160K plus bonus at many
                             large firms. Partners at most firms
                             make crazy money.
                             \_ says you're about $40k too high
                                with your estimate for SF.
                                \_ I don't know what says, but
                                   I do know what I and my classmates are
                                   making in the south bay.
                                \_ Perhaps is incorrect b/c
                                   most of my classmates got offers in
                                   that range (and I didn't even go to
                                   a very good LS).
                                   \_ has always come in low in
                                      my experience.
                                      \_ In my experience it has been
                                         accurate and I have known the salary
                                         of the two dozen or so people I have
                                         managed throughout my career.
                                         \_ That sounds circular.  "
                                            is accurate so I pay at
                                            \_ Only perhaps because you think
                                               that managers are the primary
                                               determinator of their direct
                                               reports salaries. I never got
                                               to build a team from scratch,
                                               so I always inherited a bunch
                                               of people with salary already
                                               in place. Sometimes I was able
                                               to use to justify
                                               getting HR to do a market
                                               analysis, but that was always to
                                               move salaries up, not down.
                                               \_ Where were you that the mgr
                                                  had no/little say?  Also,
                                                  when you had a new hire did
                                                  you determine their offer or
                                                  did HR?  If it was you did
                                                  you use
                             \_ There are probably more Google millionaires
                                than "partners" in the Bay Area. Your chance
                                of actually making partner are quite small and
                                you will bust your ass trying to make it.
                                \_ I agree that there are probably many
                                   more google millionaires in the the
                                   bay area than partners and that I
                                   will probably never make partner.
                                   But, for me even the 1st year salary
                                   is far more than I could hope to make
                                   using my mediocre programming skills.
                                   I didn't go to LS to get rich, I just
                                   more google millionaires in the bay
                                   area than partners and that I will
                                   probably never make partner. But, for
                                   me even the 1st year salary is far
                                   more than I could hope to make using
                                   my mediocre programming skills. I
                                   didn't go to LS to get rich, I just
                                   wanted to buy some job security and
                                   get a moderate salary increase.
                                   \_ You probably did the right thing then,
                                      especially if you end up enjoying your
                                      new job better.
                                      \_ That's the key. He might make
                                         a little more money (and after
                                         factoring in law school costs
                                         and lost wages for 3 years it
                                         might be the same) but he has to
                                         enjoy law. A lot of lawyers find
                                         it boring, but it pays too well
                                         to quit - just like a lot of s/w
                                         engineers. However, I have read
                                         surveys which show lawyers to be
                                         among the careers most dissatisfied
                                         with their jobs. By the way,
                                         there is no way any 1st year
                                         lawyers from anywhere except
                                         Harvard are making $135-160K.
                                         Your classmates are lying to you.
                                         Lawyers? Lie? Naw!
             You are right re the cost of LS. It is not _/
             cheap and may not work out economically for
             everyone. LS worked out fairly well for me
             b/c I worked part-time and got a scholarship.
             (The firm salary during 2d year summer was
             quite nice as well).
             I suppose that if you are making $100K+ as a
             coder and have decent job security, there is
             really no reason to switch. Like I said, I
             was a mediocre coder and was not making the
             big bucks like people at google, &c., so LS
             made sense for me.
             Re 1st year salaries, here are some numbers
             for the bay area:
             Palo Alto:
             (both links from
             Also, I was offered in the range I mentioned,
             and I have no reason to think that others in
             my class were not offered the same. Finally,
             I went to fairly low ranked LS, not Harvard
             or the like.
        \_ Nope, not tired, though I am starting to feel like I need
           a vacation.
2007/6/12-13 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46924 Activity:nil
6/12    Do QAs make less money than software engineers?  Say both a QA and a
        software engineer have five years of experience, how to the typical
        salaries compare?  Thx.
        \_ Generally yes, but my understanding is the gap goes away once
           you get into management level jobs.
           \_ Then you're not QA or engineer.  You're "manager".
        \_ Depends on the company. Cisco and Sun both paid QA and Development
           roughly the same (w/ 5-10K) for people in the same grade. Though
           there were a lot more MTS4 and Staff Eng. in Development.
2007/6/11-13 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46919 Activity:nil
6/11    Action Item, Professional Superhero
2007/6/11-15 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46916 Activity:high
6/11    Mid-range Unix/Linux sysadmin job available on campus, working with
        the Math, Physics, and other scientific departments within L&S.
        Apply through the crappy campus jobs system, job #006645.  -tom
        \_ What is the salary range? What would it be for a senior?
           \_ It's a PA III job; realistic starting salary
              (up to mid-point of PA III range) is $58-$82K.  A senior
              sysadmin would be PA IV, starting at $70-$100K.  -tom
              \_ $85k mid point for a senior sysadmin?  What real senior or
                 even most mid level unix people would take that job?
                 Seriously, those are the rates?  Wow....
                 \_ No, $100K is the midpoint, but at the university it's
                    hard to get hired above the midpoint, so I avoid listing
                    the entire salary range for the position.  -tom
                 \_ No, $100K is the midpoint of PA IV, but at the university
                    it's hard to get hired above the midpoint, so I avoid
                    listing the entire salary range for the position.  -tom
                    \_ $100k for a senior unix person is still really low.
                       Is there some other non-obvious benefit to working
                       \_ Why do you say $100K is really low? Most salary
                          calculators have $100K as about right, even for
                          SFBA. What do you think it should pay in order
                          to be competitive? $180K?
                          \_ The calculators always come in low.  If your
                             salary is spot on with a calculator you're
                             \_ That has not been my experience and I have
                                supervised people, so I have knowledge of
                                dozens of peoples real salaries over the
                                last five years. What industry are you in?
                                \_ Tech industry.  Maybe your company just
                                   pays low.  Do you target "the 50% mark" for
                                   hires?  You'll get "50% quality" people.
                                   \_ In my experience, the best quality
                                      people aren't the ones primarily
                                      motivated by high salaries.  -tom
                                      \_ Your experience seems limited to a
                                         place where all salaries are low so
                                         of course you don't meet quality
                                         people who can command a higher
                                         salary.  They never applied.  If you
                                         can truly get quality people with low
                                         salary offers then more power to you
                                         but from your comment about how it
                                         would be better if it was easier to
                                         get rid of the dead weight that does
                                         not seem to be the case.
                                         \_ I worked in the industry for
                                            over 8 years, so no, my experience
                                            is not limited to UC.  And the
                                            issues of hiring new good people
                                            and getting rid of old dead weight
                                            are completely separate.  -tom
                       \_ There are really awesome retirement benefits.
                          So good that you don't need to contribute to
                          a 401k, so that is worth another 15% or so.
                          \_ I don't think this is true.  The mandatory
                             contribution is not enough especially with the
                             recent performance since they outsourced the
                             fund management.  While if you work at UC for
                             a really long time you do get a pension-like
                             compensation, "long time" is the key phrase.
                             In addition to the generally higher salary,
                             other companies often provide 401k-matching
                             and whatnot.  I think the advantage is the
                             campus culture/environment.  Most of my
                             coworkers can take a day off or work from home
                             on short notices when their child is sick and
                             \_ It is the pension that really rocks. It is
                                worth quite a bit, if you do the math, but
                                yes, you have to plan to be at the UC for
                                most of your career for it to make sense.
                                At least 20 years. As for taking a day off
                                when your child is sick, isn't that true for
                                most employers?
                                \_ Okay, a sick child may be a bad example.
                                   But in general, the flexibility of a
                                   university job is superior to most US
                                   businesses.  While pension for a lifer
                                   is certainly a good chunk of money one
                                   can depend on, the higher earning while
                                   working at non-UC can be well-invested
                                   to close this gap.  Oh, and I guess job
                                   security can also be considered an
                                   \_ Also: Generally UC jobs are 40 hours
                                      per week or thereabouts.  Plus you're
                                      working for an institution with a
                                      meaningful mission, and you're not
                                      going to get outsourced to Bangalore.
                                      Make sure you're comparing apples to
                                      apples.  -tom
                                      \_ No one has ever been laid off from
                                         \_ Layoffs are exceedingly rare. -tom
                                            \_ Much to the dismay of the
                                               taxpayers :-)
                                               \_ Frankly, I think the
                                                  organization would be better
                                                  off if staff had less
                                                  "tenure," but I don't see
                                                  it changing any time soon.
                                         \_ Are we distinguishing between
                                            layoffs and firings?  I knew a
                                            woman at UC that was being fired.
                                            She had over a year notice.  Not
                                            only that, but she had access to
                                            employee records, including her
                                            own!  When someone went to retrieve
                                            it from her, she went into a room
                                            with her own file relatively full,
                                            closed the door, then later came
                                            out with the file, no longer as
                                            full.  Obviously, something is
                                            broken, but without a central
                                            campus-wide HR, that's not gonna
                                            happen anytime soon.
                                            \_ Stripped her own file?  Cool.
                                               Anyone actually do anything
                                               about that or is that the one
                                               year notice thing?
                                      \_ I think there will be a lot more
                                         outsourcing, even of gov't jobs,
                                         in the form of contracts to
                                         provide services (e.g. storage,
                                         CPU, web hosting, etc.). IT
                                         managers want you to buy services
                                         off of a menu and the fact that
                                         people in Bangalore are 90% of
                                         the operations providing the
                                         service is not relevant. The only
                                         safe gov't jobs are DOD and DOE
                                         jobs. I wouldn't lump UC in with
                                         \_ No, DoD jobs are not safe
                                            either.  I know >3 DoD
                                            people who have got booted,
                                            and my acquaitence base is
                                            not very wide.
                                            \_ Fired for sucking or their
                                               division laid off?
                                            \_ DoD jobs are safe from
                                               *outsourcing*. It's
                                               possible the work can go
                                               away entirely, but that's
                                               something else. Any jobs
                                               that require security
                                               clearances are safe for now
                                               as far as outsourcing. That
                                               does not include most of UC.
2007/5/25-28 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46755 Activity:moderate
5/25    I'm looking for pointers on how to recruit excellent junior/mid level
        computer scientists or programmers. For those of you who have hired
        people, what is a good way to go about recruiting? Basically we want
        really smart people who know and love CS and programming. Money is
        not a constraint, but we don't want people just in it for the money.
        Google seems to have a good way of doing this, but I don't know if
        there methods apply to much smaller organizations. Thanks.
        \_ Google hires excellent people by hiring a lot of people and letting
           probability take care of the rest.
        \_ I would start getting your employees to refer someone they know to
           come in and talk to you. Or if you have good/trusted friends in the
           IT industry, see if they can refer someone to you as well. Good people
           hire good people. (most of the time).
           IT industry, see if they can refer someone to you as well. Good
           people hire good people. (most of the time).
           \_ Myth.  All people hire people they like.  Not everyone knows or
              likes good people.  If this myth were true then good people would
              be running all these companies and we know that isn't true.
        \_ Google is struggling to hire anyone decent.  There is no reason for
           a non-PhD to go to Google these days and it shows in their
           increasingly desperate hiring behavior.  As far as money goes, 99%
           of people are 'in it for the money' because there are lots of things
           they could be doing they would enjoy more that don't pay as much yet
           there's their resume in front of you.  Ask yourself if you would
           do the same job if you got paid half as much, no options, etc.
           \_ I wouldn't be doing the same job if the compensation were
              halved, but there isn't any other job I would want unless the
              compensation was more than twice what I get now. That's what I
              meant by not in it for the money.
              \_ Fair enough.  Just curious, are you married?  Have kids?
           My medium-size company has arrangements with some recruiters who are not
           employees to find good candidates based on resumes, referrals, etc.
           employees to find good candidates based on their resumes, or references, etc.
           They will figure out what you are looking for. Then you have to screen
           and interview a ton of people to find the ones worth hiring.
           and interview a ton of people to find the good ones.
           \_ Very good link.  Thanks for posting that.  If only more hiring
              managers would follow his advice.
2007/4/12-15 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46267 Activity:low
4/11    Going to San Diego for 2-3 days with my gf, what are some things
        we *must* do there?
        \_ sea kayak  -tom
           \_ op, don't get too far away from the crowd.  i attended a wake
              a couple years ago for a 20-something engineer whose kayak
              overturned and didn't get help for a few hours and died from
              hypothermia.  kayak drifted away, 1 survivor.  channel islands.
              \_ That is horrible! I'd hate to be the engineer who debugs
                 a deadman's code. That's horrible.
        \_ Visit San Diego Zoo
           \_ Seconded. It is one of the best zoos in the world. --erikred
           \_ I actually live in San Diego and found it very overrated and
               just thought it was"ok", about the same as Sacramento's (where
               just thought it was "ok", about the same as Sacramento's (where
               I'm originally from).  The Wild Animal Park is much better and a
               different experience, best described as a Zoo w/o cages.  Also be
               sure to check out La Jolla Cove, La Jolla Cliffs (Glider Port),
               Coronado Island/ Beach (always ranked in the top 10 US)
               \_ San Diego and Sacramento Zoo similar? Are you crazy? I
                  agree to go to the Wild Animal Park, though - especially
                  if they still have the 'safaris' where you can drive up
                  to the animals with a guide and help feed them. The park
                  the SD Zoo is in is very nice and worth spending time
                  in. It contains some museums, too, including an aircraft
                  museum, a natural history museum, and an art museum.
               \_ SD Zoo is much nicer than any zoo I've ever been to, and
                  it has the nicest Koala exhibit. I also agree that the
                  Wild Animal Park is very good as well. If you can only
                  choose one thing, I would go to the Zoo. If you have been
                  to the Zoo before, I would go to the Wild Animal Park.
               \_ Although I disagree with your assessment of the SD Zoo, I
                  wholeheartedly agree with you about the Wild Animal Park.
                  It's in Escondido, though, which makes it a bit of a slog
                  from SD downtown. Well worth it, if you can make it.
        \_ I lived in San Diego for 2 years and I can honestly say that there
           are no *must* do things there. But Balboa Park is quite nice,
           the beaches are all great, especially La Jolla Cove and there is
           a pleasant walkable downtown. -ausman
        \_ Legoland.
2007/4/9-11 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46238 Activity:kinda low
4/9     I get to pick my own title "within reason".  I'd like to pick whatever
        will be most useful on my resume in the future without limiting my
         future options too much.  I will be the senior programmer and
        "go to guy" in my group, but without anyone reporting to me.  Some
        possible adjectives: "platform, 3D, services"
        \_ "Software Architect", a very high technical non-managerial title.
           \_ Agreed.  It implies you're decisions are followed by others,
           \_ Agreed.  It implies your decisions are followed by others,
              but you're not a manager/team lead.
        \_ How about Principal Engineer? Suggests a high degree of technical
           ability and responsibility.
           \_ I suggest using Principal Engineer only if you have 5+ years
              industry experience, not including high school and internships.
              The title connotes a steady elevation from Engineer -> Sr.
              Engineer -> Staff Engr -> Sr Staff Engr -> Principal Engineer.
              \_ My former employer's ranks go like Engr -> Sr. Engr -> Lead
                 Engr -> Staff Engr -> Sr Staff Engr -> Principal Engr -> Sr.
                 Principal engr -> (probably) Architect.
              \_ I assumed that OP was past the Member of Tech. Staff/Eng.
                 stage and was at least 10+ years experience. I agree w/
                 you if OP is less than 10 years experience. - former staff eng
                 \_ if op is asking motd, this would imply they don't have
                    10+ yrs
                    \_ because they're asking the motd or because they're on
                       the motd at all?
        \_ "Lead Engineer, in X"
           \- to me "software architect" smell more of smoke and vapor
              than "principal engineer", "senior engineer" etc.
              i mean if you are really applying for a cto/technogist/
              visionary type position what you call yourself isnt going to
              matter that much. also you dont want to necessarily come
              across as over qualified unless you really are going for
              cto,vp eng type positions. i mean it's tough to go from
              "distinguished <> fellow" to "senior programmer". is "member
              of the technical staff" now commonly understood that it doesnt
              mean bottle washer/tape monkey? a lot of people i've met dont
              seem to know what that is.
        \_ "Supreme Chancellor" seems reasonable.  That or "Dear Leader".
           I mean if they are dumb enough to give you the choice, reach for
           the stars.  Disclaimer: not responsible for loss of employment.
           \_ Dear Leader has a long and distinguished history.  Given the
              rest of the advice here, maybe Dear Principal Software Architect
              is what OP is looking for.
2007/4/9-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Industry/Jobs] UID:46237 Activity:low 50%like:46150
4/8     fyi no new mail coming in
        \_ obUseSodaOnlyForMotd
        \_ embarrassing.. Google recruiter had 2 of my resumes .. one
           was with my csua email account (which i like because it
           showed off berkeley) and the other with another  acct..
           He asked me why did you move your email to gmail when
           having the address is better for your resume
           I told him because the csua email was too unreliable..
           He told me. .that's why we like to hire stanford people.
           \_ I heard that those jerks don't like to hire people who can't
              indent one's code either.
           \_ well you could always get a <DEAD><DEAD> or
     and forward it to gmail.
           \_ And you told him, "If you can't see I graduated from Berkeley on
              my resume without having it as my email address you're not smart
              enough to hire me, thanks".  Right?  Anyway, why would you want
              to work for Google at this point in their history anyway?  Do you
              have a PhD?  If not, I see no reason to go there.
        \_ Related: It is likely that starting next year, students will
           be able to keep their addresses for life (as
           forwarding addresses).  -tom
           \_ That's cool.  Who runs this program and how do we sign up when
              it's ready?  Thanks!
              \_ Right now it's only an agreement in principle.  I expect
                 the way it will work is that when you put yourself on the
                 degree list, you'll get asked for a forwarding email address.
                 University Relations is very interested in keeping in
                 touch with young alumni.  -tom
                 \_ They're interested in keeping touch with all Alumni. Or
                    so the numberous requests for donations I get each year
                    so the numerous requests for donations I get each year
                    would seem to indicate. --erikred
                    \_ Well, of course.  But if they lose them in the first
                       five years, they rarely get them back.  They want to
                       "build lifelong relationships" so that you'll donate
                       once you're old enough to have earned money.  -tom
                       \_ Good point. --erikred
                 \_ I graduated.  Do they plan to have a way for senile grads
                    to signup?
                    \_ At the very least, you'll be able to do
               Dunno about  -tom
                       \_ Thanks tom.  Please keep us informed.
2007/3/23-27 [Industry/Jobs] UID:46073 Activity:low
3/23    My boss just gave his 2 weeks and his boss is freaking out a bit.  What
        is the ideal amount of time to wait before asking for a raise?
        \_ Are you going to ask your boss or his boss?
           \_ His boss.
        \_ Don't ask for a raise.  Ask for his job and salary (which is almost
           certainly at least 35% higher than yours).  Explain how you're
           prepared to take over, ready to move up, solve problems, and the
           time is right.  The one thing all managers want to hear is that
           someone else has solved their problem for them.  Be that solution.
           Don't be the money grubber who adds to his woes asking for a raise
           with the implied threat of quitting if you don't get it.
           \_ I agree with the ask for your bosses job part, but you are
              kidding yourself if you think the average manager makes at
              least 35% more than their line subordinates. 15-20% is more
              like it.
              \_ I think this depends on many variables. I do know that
                 I saw my old boss' paycheck once and he made 35%
                 more than I did at the time and I was one of the higher
                 paid people underneath him. A lot depends on your
                 organization, though. Some have 40 levels of management
                 and in some you report directly to the CEO.
                 and in some you report directly to the CEO. I doubt
                 my current boss makes 35% more than I do, but she's
                 relatively inexperienced. I had a really senior manager
                 once who charged to some of my tasks and based on
                 the burn rate he made a lot more than 35% more than I
                 did. He had been in his job for 40+ years and I think
                 his high salary was one reason he was the casualty
                 of a layoff.
              \_ In year 2000 I (engineer) made $90k and my immediate boss (VP
                 Engineering in a startup) made $150k.
                 \_ Do you think it is typical that a line engineer is
                    supervised by a VP?
2007/3/13-17 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45952 Activity:low
3/13    Slide is hiring!  See:
        for details.  We have smart people.  We have plans for total world
        domination including orbital lasers and robot monkey armies.  We
        have interesting problems.  Email me if interested. -dans
        \_ Are the orbital lasers mounted on sharks?
           \_ No, the sharks kept exploding in a vacuum, and they kept
              eviscerating the handlers when we tried to put them into
              spacesuits so we had to scrub that plan. -dans
                \_ I'll suit up yer sharks.. fer a million bucks
                   \_ We're pretty flush, but, given that this isn't key to
                      our world domination plans, this would be a poor use of
                      a million bucks.  That said, we do pay well for
                      developers. -dans
                      \_ There's no way this is going to work until you solve
                         the exploding shark problem.  Sorry.  I think you guys
                         can do it though.
                         \_ A valid point, but don't hold your breath.  It's
                            just not that high on our priority list. -dans
                            \_ Your interest in sharks actually reveals
                               something about your personality.  Since you
                               are afraid of being outed by my diagnosis,
                               I wont elaborate.  Are you planning to
                               provide the JPG of your hand?
                               -Soda's Board Certified Shrink
                            \_ No sharks?  Doooooooomed!  Everyone just *knows*
                               you can't have lasers without sharks.
        \_ Hey who wiped out the discussion of world domination plans and
           flaming? -dans
2007/3/8-12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45909 Activity:nil
3/8     USDC is looking to hire a programmer:
        Email me with questions. --erikred
2007/2/13-17 [Industry/Jobs, Science/Electric, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:45735 Activity:nil
2/13    If anyone is looking for a job (or internship, this is aimed at
        both current students and alum), bug me.  I work with a bunch of smart
        people at an interesting company that's going nuclear, I know a bunch
        of people who have founded/are starting companies, and one very badass
        recruiter. -dans
2007/2/11-13 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45710 Activity:high
2/11    So apparently minimum wage increases do in fact result in layoffs.
                \- yeah, and vaccines kills people
        \_ So do you still think the Iraq occupation was the right thing?
              \_you are an idiot.
              \_ your an idiot.
                 \_ Is this supposed to be funny?
        \_ But they do not result in layoffs of unoin workers, which is why
           unions are so keen on pushing minimum wage increases.  This is not
           \_ Many union contracts are written such that the base wage is a
              multiple of the minimum wage.  Thus, raising the minimum wage
              has nothing to do with the working poor they claimed to be
              helping and everything to do with a *huge* gimme to unions.
              \_ Exactly.  Another reason is that raising minimum wage makes
                 hiring unskilled workers more costly, and hiring skilled
                 workers not as costly in comparison.  So employers will be
                 more likely to hire skilled workers, which again doesn't help
                 the working poor they claim to be helping.  -- PP
                 \_ Did you even read the article? The layoffs are amongst
                    teenagers, not the "working poor." In fact, it implies
                    that older and more experienced workers were becoming
                    more valuable. This is a good thing, imho. Also, it is
                    forcing workplaces to become more efficient, which is
                    the best way to improve standards of living. Without
                    knowing what the unemployment rate is before and after,
                    you are not really measuring much. Maybe all those
                    laid off fast food workers found more economically
                    prodcutive activity.
                    productive activity.
                    \_ No one said the working poor were laid off.  Yet.  Two
                       things were said: raising the minimum wage is a gimme
                       to unions, and that teens are getting axed.  I do like
                       the idea that firing people improves their lives.  That
                       sure worked well for employees in the 2001-2004 era.
                       \_ "... nothing to do with the working poor they..."
                          Someone sure said that. Give me some real stats
                          and not just anecdotes, otherwise you are just
                          talking out your ass.
                          \_ Quote them please.  Stats: there are no stats that
                             demonstrate the legal fact that union contracts
                             are based on a multiple of the minimum wage.  It
                             is a legal fact, not a numeric statistical event.
                             You really need to keep up with what is being
                             said, especially if you're going to accuse other
                             people of "talking out your ass".
                             \_ Scroll up 20 lines. I am not going to repeat
                                something that was posted three paragraphs
                                ago. Do you have a reading comprehension
                                \_ You spent more time talking about how you're
                                   too cool/smart to quote than it would have
                                   taken to quote.  Except, oh wait, there is
                                   really nothing there for you to quote that
                                   backs up what you said.  Quote it.
        \_ Minor quibble here: telling teens you're cutting back shifts and
           hours constitutes "layoffs"? I thought you had to employ someone
           fulltime in order to lay them off.
           \_ Okay, whatever: ^layoffs^hour reductions
           \_ Okay, whatever: ^layoffs^reduced employment
           \_ You ever been laid off a real job?  On the way down, some
              companies will cut hours or force lower wages (which obviously
              isn't possible in this case), before finally cutting for real.
              And how is it that cutting back a shift isn't a layoff/firing
              if it was your shift that got cut?  No job, but good worker =
              laid off.
              \_ In answer to your question, yes. They gave me a severance
                 package and paid my health insurance for two months. As I
                 said before, I thought you had to employ someone fulltime
                 in order to lay them off.
                 \_ Layoff has simply become the nice way to say "fired". It's
                    also used in the same way as it used to be.
                 \_ If you are working 30 hours per week and your employer
                    tells you he doesn't need you anymore, then you've
                    been laid off. What does full-time have to do with
                    \_ Nothing.  I also think it's funny that he thinks firing
                       people is good for them.
2007/1/25 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup, Finance/Investment] UID:45589 Activity:nil Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2006/12/21-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Industry/Jobs] UID:45484 Activity:nil
12/21   I guess those *aren't* jobs Americans won't do:
        \_ Yes, just like there's a purported shortage of engineers, PhDs, etc.
2006/11/30-12/12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45396 Activity:nil
11/30   Anyone have any experience with
        \_ No direct experience, but they're one of the really old school mom
           & pop ISP shops.  They're probably pretty good if you want
           no-frills services that just work.  Probably less good if you want
           a 24-7 NOC. :) -dans
2006/11/7-8 [Industry/Jobs] UID:45232 Activity:nil
        Free music, wide variety, easy to use. I LOVE IT.  -motd reviewer
        PS Are you guys going IPO any time soon?
        \_ Hi, I'm an engineer there.  We have lots of openings:
           Ask me anything.  --lye@csua
           \_ I love your Brazilian variety. It's got a surprisingly
              comprehensive Bossa Nova collection. Pandora KICKS ASS.
              PS. Fuck mainstream pop/rock.
           \_ Excellent site.  I wish there were a way to combine music
              streams to "triangulate" between two or more styles.  -John
              \_ There is.  Try "QuickMix".  --lye
                 \_ Bah, can't find it, I'll keep looking, thx.  -John
2006/11/2-4 [Reference/BayArea, Industry/Jobs] UID:45116 Activity:moderate
10/2    Anybody ever used the "cost-of-living" salary calculators on the web?
        I'm using the one on and also on  They're
        giving me vastly different numbers.  Putting in a round number of
        100,000 as salary in San Jose, CA, if I move to Houston, TX, the web site shows that I would have to earn 64K.  But the site shows that I'd have to earn 45K.  Which site
        to trust?  And what is the source of these numbers?  Neither site
        says how they calculate these things.  Thanks.
        \_ Even accounting for all the excellent "life is about living" advice
           given below, the calculators still do a very poor job of translating
           from one city to another.  Your rent in Houston may be lower but
           other living expenses are static.  A new car, computer, your next
           vacation, utilities, clothing, and a ton of other things don't
           change that much in price by location.  The 45K number is garbage.
           the 64K 'feels' very low.  I wouldn't leave this area for 64k in
           Texas even though the people there are nicer and living is easier.
           I might think about 80k if it was a great job with great people I
           knew and lots of upside.  90k would be more like it as a minimum
           to go from here at 100k to there into random job.  For me.  Whatever
           you do, you should definitely fly out there for a few days, drive
           around, see what the city is like, talk to realtors, chat with the
           locals, etc, before making any big decisions.
        \- people have convex perferences generally but with something
           like this people trade offs are wildly different. it may not
           be hard to compare rent/mortgage for same square footage
           of living space, but other factors are hard to compare both
           for hard to capture intanglible reasons [i would much prefer to
           drive bumper to bumper on the bay bridge for 45 or drive fast on
           280 for 45 min than to drive medium speed on ugly 101 for 45min].
           and even if some study could some how capture these factors,
           you know your preferences better than other people. some people
           would rather have a 2400sq ft house and a giant tv and swimming
           \_ Are you talking about dim, aka the average American with
              the typical big American dream of owning big SUVs, 4 children,
              2 dogs, and a BBQ grills in the backyard?
              \_ I hate dogs, kids, and SUVs. BBQ is fine. --dim
              \_ I hate dogs, kids, and SUVs. BBQ is fine. --gay dim
                                                             \_ This is so
                                                                Don't quit
                                                                your day job.
           pool in freeemont, others would rather live in 900ft space in sf
           \_ Only Eurotrash aka I-Hate-America German John and Socialist
           \_ Only Eurotrash aka I-Hate-America German John and anarchist
              lafe like urban living. The average American hates urban living.
              \_ Which is precisely why we urbanites love it. -dans
                 \_ Jawohl.  And as to below, ditto here, but I can always
                    get out of the city.  And when I do, I want to visit
                    nature, not Fresno.  -John
                 \- i dont like "urban living" because it keeps me away
                    from suburbanites. i just like living a lot of my life
                    outside the house. i generally meet friends at a bar
                    or a restaurant or a cafe. rather than going
                    over to people's houses or having them over.
                    i think if you live in some place like danville
                    or the almaden valley you probably spend more
                    time at home with your "stuff" rather than going
                    out. i also eat out a lot. i'm not being judgemental
                    here, just suggesting the preferences here are
                    radically different. i dont get milage out of having
                    my car broken into or none of the movie theaters
                    having "plenty of free parking", but that's ok
                    with me. it's still worth it .. but might not
                    be for somebody who likes spending time at home
                    with the wife and kids and working in his garage
                    woodshop. note also, before peet's/starbucks, ranch99,
                    good standard bakeries, the current ubiquity of indian
                    and thair restaurants, amazon [for books] there was a
                    and thai restaurants, amazon [for books] there was a
                    lot of "diversity" not really available easily in
                    not lot of "diversity" easily available in
                    the 'burbs. obviously this has changed a lot in
                    berkeley/walnut creek/palo alto/freemont etc.
                    if you were going to do the exact same job, how much
                    would they have to pay you to move to stockon? bakesrfield?
                    fresno? would you move to fresno for a year for $50k
                    in "hazard" pay? [no offense slouie] .. i'd reject that
                    instantly. 50k wouldnt really change my life at all
                    but i think i'd be hating that year.
                    but i think i'd be hating that year. [althought i'd
                    be willing to spend 2 days there for $250].
           and spend money on cocktails not plasma tv. so people living
           in huston and manhattan are probably looking for different things,
           so you cant take a static bundle and just price it in different
           markets. i think what makes the most sense is to compare specific
           places [say SF vs Manhattan or Chicago ... where you would be
           holding "lifestyle" reasonably constant] or decide if your
           priorities have changed and you want to change lifestyle ...
           for example a house-owning mech eng i know in san jose has
           decided to become an optometrist because she wants to live in
           the sierra foothills. in some cases you can bite the bullet and
           live a livestyle you dont want to live for a few years in return
           for big dollars, but usually that involves moving to dubai or
           iraq, not BF nowhere, USA. to move to houston i'd have to be paid
           more cash, not be able to live better at my current salary ...
           because you could not buy anything to compensate for living in
           houston vs SF ... it would be a matter of saving the money for
           future consumption.
2006/10/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Industry/Jobs] UID:44761 Activity:nil
10/11   Slide is looking for a Product Manager and QA Engineer:
        I recently signed on as a developer there, so feel free to email me if
        you have questions.
2006/10/3-5 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/Languages] UID:44643 Activity:kinda low
10/3    My manager and the project manager refuses to have a project plan
        (i.e., schedule).  Instead, they opted to track progress via bugzilla.
        Now my manager wants to know when we can release the product.  I
        told him that we really need a schedule to know that.  He then placed
        the blame on me for not having a schedule.  How would you respond to
        this? -abused employee
            \_ Let me counter with something more useful:
        \_ It sounds like you are the technical lead.  The PM is the PM, and
           your manager is just a middle manager.  As the technical lead, you
           should obtain whatever data you can from above on what the
           schedule requirements are (this can even be just a "complete by"
           date), and create an implementation plan according to any dates.
        \_ Just do your own project management. I have often had to do this
           at various points in my career when my bosses were idiots. This
           also helps make you ready for the jump to the next level, if
           are so interested. -ausman
        \_ This is a pretty standard problem.  Check out the author
           Steve McConnell, and browse through his books Code Complete,
           Software Estimation and Rapid Development.  Trust me, you are
           not alone.  There are plenty of good discussions and data out
           there to help you deal with bad software management. --peterl
           there to help you deal with bad software managers. --peterl
        \_ You made a mistake on day 1 when you knew you needed a schedule
           and didn't make one.  Next time just make a schedule.  Print it
           and email it to your manager.  At that point it becomes his
           problem if he doesn't like it or it doesn't fit business needs.
           For your current situation, you can either flip him off and get
           another job, or you can take the mature approach, tell him it isn't
           about finger pointing but team success, blah blah, and sit his
           dumb ass down to write a real schedule from the point you're at now.
           \_ He was adamant about not having a schedule.  He made it clear
              that he did not believe in it.  He has tried it and it has
              failed every time.  I don't mind working on a schedule now,
              but knowing him, I know he will then turn around and say
              that's something I should have done at the beginning.  So
              instead of being praised for taking the initiative, I will
              get blamed for starting it late.
              \_ Yeah, a lot of incompetent and/or inexperienced software
                 managers behave like this.  I would suggest browsing through
                 those books, or similar ones, that I mentioned.  If your
                 manager is unwilling to make changes and continues to blame
                 you even after you discuss professional engineering standards
                 with him, then you'll probably have to transfer, quit, or
                 bring it up with his bosses.  Feel free to email me if you
                 want to talk about this further.  --peterl
              \_ In this case, if he didn't want a schedule, you should have
                 showed him an implementation plan, but one without dates.
              \_ Wow, that sucks.  What I have learned (the hard way) to do
                 with shitty managers who refuse to follow common good
                 practice or make bad calls is to send them an email spelling
                 out what they told me to do and ask them to confirm.
                 "So, Bob, just wanted to make sure we're on the same page and
                  you don't want a formal schedule for this project."  The
                 smart ones get the message.  The dumb ones will fail and
                 blame you no matter what.  If your manager really is that
                 dumb then sometimes quitting (or finding a new job in the
                 same company if the place is big enough) is the only answer.
                 It still sounds like your situation might be salvagable but
                 I'd have my resume up to date just in case.  BTW, according
                 to my tech recruiter friend there are lots of jobs now but
                 no one applying for them.
                 \_ I tried that.  I think my manager falls into the later
                    category.  I would send out minutes and he always later
                    claims that I shouldn't dwell on what we decided before--
                    as a startup, we need to be nimble and adapt.  Bottom
                    line is, regardless what I do, I am always wrong, even
                    if it were his bad decision.
                    \_ Just go get another job then. There are plenty out
                       there right now.
                    if it were his badi decision.
2006/9/23-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack, Industry/Jobs] UID:44506 Activity:moderate Cat_by:auto 68%like:44541
9/22    Note to future employers reading jblack's archives. Justin P Black
        is a total nut case. Just search for his name on the archiver.
        \_ I don't like jblack's extremist right-wing postings as the next
           person. But don't you think it's wrong to use a public
           discussion forum to personally smear other people? That seems
           like a very Fox New's type thing to do.
           \_ Op's post reflects more negatively on him than it does on
              the guy he's talking about.  I don't really care if I have to
              work with someone who has political opinions I think are crazy
              (I've done plenty of that, and it can be fun atually).  However,
              if I thought some self-righteous asshole like op thought he
              could get away with not hiring someone because of his political
              opinions, there's no way I'd work for him.  That sort of rigid
              authoritarian attitude is likely to carry over into technical,
              work-related matters and make someone impossible to work for/with.
              Whereas wingnut political opinions can be easily separated from
              technical matters, and have no effect on quality of life at work.
        \_ If people stopped hiring software people with insane fringe
           political opinions, the software industry would die in a week.
        \_ What archiver?
        \_ You're actually helping him, not hurting him.  If someone doesn't
           hire him because some anonymous jackass posted some bit of idiocy
           like yours on some stupid blog, you've just saved him from one of
           the worst jobs possible: working for stupid people.
        \_ I already circulated a negative recommendation in my company.
           I am making sure jblack gets special attentions. I work at Intel
           Corporation and I've passed the list to my HR friends at Yahoo,
           Google, HP, Applied Materials, and other major corporations.
           They've also begun circulating his name to the HR depts in
           other companies as well.  Please help me circulate jblack's
           name throughout the valley and tell me which companies
           you've passed the recommendation to so that we don't duplicate
           efforts. Thanks -alum of 1990, Intel Verification, SC
           \_ Hey, asshole!  Why don't you post your name so people who
              believe in free speech can avoid dealing with you ever?
              Posting freeper links to a public forum and trying to blacklist
              someone from an industry are two very different things.  The first
              is what what the motd is for, and the second is something that
              is borderline illegal, against policy in some companies, and
              makes you a bad human being.  I'm going to post my name just
              in the hopes that I never accidentally get hired by you or your
              asshole friends.  And for the record, I dissagree with jblack
              on every issue(except free speech on the motd and gun control).
           \_ If only the world really worked that way....
           \_ Free speech for me, eh?  -alum of 1997, at Intel SC until 2000
              Oh yeah, I can sign my name. -emarkp
        \_ What's wrong with hiring people with wacky political views so long
           as they do good work and don't draw bad press to the company?
           Do you support McCarthy-era blacklisting of communists?
           \_ Group dynamics is just as important as technical skills. We
              had a brilliant guy in our lab from the midwest with extremist
              views (he thinks we should nuke Iraq, Iran, and N Korea). For
              two years the manager tried to group him into different
              projects and the projects all turned out to be disasterous
              because we just couldn't get along. The manager gave up and
              the midwest dude drifted to his little projects while most of
              us moved on. Don't underestimate the power of group dynamics.
              \_ His problem wasn't his views.  His problem was sharing them
                 at work.  Were the rest of you sharing your views on the same
                 topics or was he this wildman lone wolf out to convert you
                 all to nuking everyone?  I'll bet his version of events is
                 something like, "I was recruited out to the West Coast where
                 all these obnoxious assholes wouldn't shutup about their
                 politics so I tried different groups to get away from them
                 but they were all more interested in everyone thinking like
                 them politically than in getting any work done, so I went
                 and did my own projects until I could get away from that
           \_ It won't be good for the team if he's widely hated.
              \_ Professionals don't discuss their politics, religion and other
                 BS at work.  Furthermore if you *hate* someone because they
                 have different political views than you, the problem is yours,
                 not theirs.
                 \_ In theory, you're absolutely right. Professionals do not
                    discuss shit outside of their professional work.
                    In practice, you're wrong. Most of the professionals
                    in this world are not that professional.
                 \_ All true. Still doesn't change the fact that employers
                    _will_ Google you these days before hiring you.
                    \_ And really, if an anonymous motd entry showing up on
                       google is a barrier to a job you've done him a great
                       service by saving him from a job with morons.
        \_ Why are you such a wuss that you won't publish your name?
           Anonymously naming other people is pretty low. -jrleek
           \_ Because if he did, he might find himself on a counter-blacklist.
              I couldn't care less about jblack's political leanings but I hate
              this pathetic coward blacklist guy's behavior. Unlike the
              politics, this sort of thing is something that is likely to
              reflect on being a shitty guy to work with.
              \_ The blacklist guy is kchang (Kevin Chang), who I'm sure is
                 already on plenty of blacklists for his stalking behavior.
              \_ It isn't that difficult to figure out who is who on the motd.
                 He may very well find his own name spread around the valley,
                 but really my question is, "why does he care?".  And no, I
                 know that places like Intel, HP, etc are too damned big and
                 disorganised, especially in hiring, to have a global blackist
                 created by motd writers.  The whole concept is just silly and
                 a vain attempt to silence jblack for having political views
                 that differ from the childish and petty original poster.
        \_ Are we running the "best of" soda useless classic motd discussions?
        \_ Wow. Facism is alive and well in the liberal, tolerant Bay Area.
           \_ Should we take this at face value?
2006/8/5-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:43916 Activity:nil
8/5     question for the MS Exchange VSAPI aware folks out there.  In
        VSAPI, are scan engines implemented as DLLs (or similar shared
        objects) that are loaded into Exchange's address space, specifically
        the Information Store, or are they separete processes that
        communicate with Exchange via pipes/sockets/etc ala Milter?  I'd
        "read the fucking documentation", but apparently MS doesn't make
        that readily available to non-developer$ --Jon
        \_ Developer$, developer$, developer$, developer$, developer$
           developer$, developer$, developer$... --SweatyBallmer
        \_ They are separate processes.  -geek
           \_ Try again:
              Login: geek                       Name: Eugene Kim
              Directory: /home/sequent/geek     Shell: /csua/adm/bin/safesorry
              Never logged in.
              Mail forwarded to
        \_ Jon, read this:
           Vendor Scanning DLL
           This is a DLL provided by an anti-virus vendor written to the
           VSAPI  specification. The specification essentially states
           the vendor must provide 3 interfaces: A startup function,
           a scanning function, and a shutdown function. The Information
           Store loads this DLL into the Information Store process. Upon
           loading the DLL, the Information Store calls the startup
           function provided by the vendor. As with any DLL running in a
           process, the vendor can allocate memory, spawn new threads for
           supporting reporting functionality, or initiate communication
           to other processes on the system supporting the VSAPI engine.
           \_ Dude, who the hell would ever read that?  -average American
2006/8/2-6 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:43883 Activity:nil
8/2     We're hiring software engineers. Great place to work, interesting
        projects, and so forth. See /csua/pub/jobs/FortifySoftware or email
        me for details. -gm
        \_ I am so in.  So in. -proud American
2006/7/27-8/2 [Industry/Jobs] UID:43817 Activity:nil
7/27    The new startup I am working for is hiring a web application
        developer: /csua/pub/jobs/abgenial
        \_ I'm so in. -proud American
2006/7/17-19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:43699 Activity:nil
7/17    I recently posted my resume on the web, and am now receiving emails
        from random recruiters.  I am actively looking for a job so I don't
        want to turn down good leads, but I've always had the impression that
        recruiters are evil and slimy.  What kind of experiences (good or bad)
        have folks on the motd had pursuing job leads through recruiters?  Is
        this just a bad idea?  Are there things I should watch out for?
        \_ A recruiter's a recruiter.  If they directly represent an open
           position, and they can get you in the door, go for it.  Sending your
           resume to some email submission thing is a black hole at most places
           IMO.  If they're like "I want to add you to my stable^Wcontact list
           for possible future jobs", lose the zero.
           \_ I think this makes sense.  Random professional headhunters often
              have good leads that are worth pursuing.  As PP says, though --
              be sure the headhunter or recruiter has a specific lead in mind.
              If not, they're likely to be wasting your time.          -mice
        \_ The time I spent dealing with a recruiter was a total waste of
           time.  All the jobs they found were lame and uninteresting.
        \_ The first thing I ask a random recruiter is if there is a specific
           job.  I want a city, job title, salary range, and if they'll give
           it, company name.  If they can't provide the first three up front,
           I politely decline.  If they ask for my resume I ask them first for
           the job description.  If they can't provide a job description, I
           politely decline.  Once you have the job description use the net to
           search key phrases and apply brain to see if you can figure out what
           company they're shilling for.  Then you can decide if you want to
           keep talking to random recruiter.
2006/6/26-29 [Industry/Jobs] UID:43497 Activity:nil 73%like:43495
6/26    Has anyone consulted (SysAdmin) for Taos before?  They offered me
        work and I like their client.  How much more should a consultant get
        compared to their full-time equivalent? (assuming I figured that out)
        \_ I was able to find my own gig for almost 2x what Taos was looking
           to pay.  YMMV.
        \_ In general the contract client will be paying 2x for the work you
           do.  If you work through someone like taos, they take 1x and you get
           the other.  If you want to cut them out and go direct contract, you
           can, but there is a huge amount of overhead in taxes and
           administration you will need to take on yourself, as well as dealing
           with what happens when the contract ends.
           \_ More than that.  I knew a guy who got $17/hr from Taos.  They
              were billing the company $150/hr for his services.
              \_ BS dude, for me taos was taking about 30% and I got the rest.
                 I know because often i could get the client to tell me the
                 billable rate.
              \_ Heh funny, I seem to recall $17/hr being entry level
                 sysadmin Taos pay around 1996 or so.  I don't know how it
                 works in the US, but in Europe, big companies generally have
                 some form of "preferred supplier" list that's a bitch to
                 get on.  You must be on it to contract for them (obviously
                 if you're consulting for someone who really wants you or
                 high-enough level, that's not an issue.)  So the contract
                 agencies milk that for what it's worth.  -John
                 \_ same thing here for big enough companies. -shac
                    \_ Doesn't that fall under some sort of anti-competition
                       law?  I know companies can choose whom to do business
                       with, but in my experience, this has often been used
                       in a very nasty oligopolistic manner by contract firms
                       that bribe clients' purchasing people.  We also have
                       the problem of large banks, for example, getting
                       together to keep rates down--both are well-known but
                       extremely hard to prove.  -John
2006/6/26 [Computer/SW/Mail, Industry/Jobs] UID:43495 Activity:low 73%like:43497
6/26    Has anyone SysAdmin consulted for Taos before?  They offered me
        a contract and I like their client.  How much more should I ask
        for above the client pays the full-time equivalent, assuming
        I figured that out?
2006/6/1-4 [Industry/Jobs, Recreation/Humor, Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:43245 Activity:nil
6/1     Semi randomly generated spam I thought was funny:
        Hi there lovely,
        This kbind of opportunity comes ones in a clife. I docn't want
        to miss it. Do you? I am comcing to your place in few days
        and I though may be we can meet each other. If you don't mind
        I can send you mcy picture. I am a girbl.
        \_ I am a gerbil.
2006/4/26-29 [Industry/Jobs] UID:42843 Activity:nil
4/26    We have a job applicant where his expected salary seems a bit high and
        I'm curious what he made at his last job.  What would you expect for a
        tech support lead for a large school district in the SFBA?
        \_ normally this type of info is requested on a job application
           but is only given to the hiring manager and HR. -shac
           \_ Personally, I almost always leave that blank on application
              forms.  I don't think its information that's relevant until
              they've decided they're interested.
        \_ It's not unusual to ask this.  (I find it grating as an applicant,
           but it's not unusual)
        \_ Call his former employer and ask.
2006/4/26-27 [Academia/GradSchool, Industry/Jobs] UID:42833 Activity:nil
4/26    I hate modal dialog boxes.  I realize its probably not possible to
        make all application-modal dialogs non-modal without breaking a million
        things, but in WinXP is there any way I can globally demote all
        system-modal dialogs to be application-modal?
2006/3/21-22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Industry/Jobs] UID:42362 Activity:nil
3/21    I just read the csua minutes wrt hard drive failures, fix, admin,
        email, root, whatever. Good job mrauser. You guys are doing a
        good job keeping the fine tradition of producing some of the
        best sysadms in the world.                -old sysadm from csua/cal
        \_ Woot, woot!  Go mrauser! -mrauser
2006/3/16-18 [Health/Women, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Industry/Jobs] UID:42271 Activity:nil
3/16    Is this Vivagel stuff available for purchase in Australia?
2006/3/13-14 [Academia/GradSchool, Industry/Jobs] UID:42204 Activity:high
3/13    Is it hard for new-grads (CS/EE) to get entry-level jobs in this
        \_ The type of jobs that I've been involved and have been interviewing
           people for in the last 10 years require excellent coding skills
           as well as thorough thought processes. The best coders are those
           that come from decent schools and have decent GPAs (above 3.0).
           Interestingly, some of the WORST programmers I've hired have
           really high GPAs (above 3.8) or those that have PhDs. They are
           smart and are good theorists, but they aren't necessarily
           hard workers or good team players. They are brilliant in their
           little own worlds, but have very little common sense and don't
           embrace the work culture. Many of them are lazy or think that
           existing code is trash ("I'm holier than thou") thus don't
           contribute much except for their snide and occasionally
           insightful comments; but talk is cheap, and they contribute
           very little. They also tend to get bored and leave quickly, or
           apply to MBAs/grad school and leave. I don't hire super smart
           overachievers anymore. So don't worry about your GPA and such. Just
           present yourself clearly and do well on the interview and you'll
           be fine.                                     -old alumni
        \_ There is always a job for smart, likable people.  The obnoxious
           and stupid will have a hard time in any market.  Right now, things
           have/are switching back to the job seeker's side.
           \_ What's the salary like for an average new-grad from an average
              school?  What about for someone with kinda good GPA, say 3.5,
              from Cal?  I don't mean the super-talented.  Thanks.
              \_ Entry-level jobs are some of the easiest to get. Who doesn't
                 like smart people for peanuts? Yes, they are sometimes
                 not immediately useful, but that doesn't seem to matter.
                 By the way, why do you think your GPA matters? With a 3.5
                 you could go to a good grad school, which is what you
                 might want to consider. That's a very good GPA and your
                 employer won't even care. They will most likely lump you
                 in with the guy who got a 3.0 at San Jose State. Grad schools
                 will care a lot more, if that's important to you.
                 \_ I heard that there are many really cool companies where
                    programming staff, HR, etc is dominated by alumni from top
                    CS schools and they generally do pay attention to where the
                    applicant is coming from. Of course, the university degree
                    is only a part of the equation.
                    \_ Sure, they look at where you went to school. However,
                       I doubt they care about your GPA. If they do, I
                       would question why they do. I once had an interview
                       where the woman asked me why I was so bad at math,
                       because I had B's in most of my upper division math
                       classes (I was a math major). I wanted to slap her
                       and say "If they were all A's I'd probably be
                       at Princeton right now and not applying for your
                       crummy job."
                    \_ Well, I generally filter new grads based on school
                       and then gpa.  The school filter is mostly practical.
                       I'm more likely to find pearls amongst a pool of MIT
                       grads than among a pool of Bob's State U grads.  Not
                       that there are noone excellent from Bob's; it's just
                       that they are rarer and take more effort to discover.
                       Also, interviewers tend to know more about the program
                       at the big noise schools (e.g., I know to be suitably
                       impressed by someone who did well in 6-111), and
                       that makes the resume screen more meaningful.  At least
                       for me, GPA usually works as a high-pass filter, and
                       I don't stress too much over the difference once the
                    \_ Well, I generally filter new grads resumes based on
                       school and then gpa.  The school filter is mostly
                       practical.  I'm more likely to find pearls amongst a
                       pool of MIT grads than among a pool of Bob's State U
                       grads.  Not that there are noone excellent from Bob's;
                       it's just that they are rarer and take more effort to
                       discover.  Also, interviewers tend to know more about
                       the program at the big noise schools (e.g., I know to
                       be suitably impressed by someone who did well in 6.111),
                       and that makes the resume screen more meaningful.  At
                       least for me, GPA usually works as a high-pass filter,
                       and I don't stress too much over the difference once the
                       GPA meets the reasonable criterion.
                 \_ Personally, I don't put my GPA on my resume, and never
                    have.  It's a terrible filter, because it automatically
                    filters out smart, creative hackers that don't care about/
                    are bored by school.  That may be okay for large software
                    companies writing, say, tax software.  It's disasterous
                    for companies that want to be nimble, and hire the best.
                    I am in no way insinuating that all people with bad GPA's
                    are bright creative hackers, or that all people with good
                    GPA's are dumb automatons.  Putting your gpa on your
                    resume implicitly supports this practice.  Not putting it
                    on there may at least earn you a call back inquiring for it
                    which gives me the opportunity for me to explain why it's
                    not there.  If a company still refuses to move forward
                    after that, I say ``Thank you very much for your time, but,
                    if you are unable to flex on this, I don't think I'd be a
                    good fit for your company culture.''  Incidentally, my GPA
                    sucked, but it has never gotten me filtered out of a job
                    once I reached the interview phase.
                    -dans    Disclaimer: tom believes I am Paolo's stooge/tool.
                             If you're not with tom, you're against him, so
                             you may want to ignore the preceding, lest you
                             incur tom's wrath.
                             \_ Was it really necessary to stir this up again?
                                Why is it so important that you get the last
                                word in this argument?
                                \_ Who's stirring things up?  I'm providing a
                                   public service.  In fact, when I have time,
                                   I'm plan to write a utility that allows
                                   people to add a disclaimer they write to
                                   their own motd posts.  Additionally, it
                                   will allow everyone to write disclaimers
                                   about others.  All these disclaimers will
                                   be viewable via the web, but only the most
                                   popular (as chosen by majority vote) will
                                   be added to entries on the motd.  Of
                                   course, it would be against policy to run
                                   this tool automatically via cron or script,
                                   so people will need to run it by hand.  I
                                   also plan to add an option to run it that
                                   strips out disclaimers, so people who don't
                                   like the utility can remove them. -dans
                                   \_ Well, the utility does sound pretty neat,
                                      but I was referring to your referencing
                                      the Paolo Incident.  Repeatedly spamming
                                      motd with it doesn't seem to be resolving
                                      anything.  Oh well.  n/m   -mice
                             \_ Wow, you must really enjoy losing debates
                                badly, to bring it up again.  -tom
                                \_ Seriously, you two ever graduate from
                                   grade school?  You bicker like a couple of
                                   10 year olds.  Grow up. -jrleek
                                \_ Tom, we already know that, insofar as this
                                   matter is concerned, you have a completely
                                   and utterly distorted view of reality.
                                   Frankly, I have no interest in arguing it
                                   with you any further as I am not your
                                   psychotherapist.  If I was, I would
                                   recommend medication since you clearly
                                   haven't responded to talk therapy. -dans
                                   \_ Dude you are no better. Tom's view wasn't
                                      "utterly distorted". He simply claims
                                      Paolo violated policy, wasn't punished,
                                      and lied about it. You have not shown
                                      that to be wrong. You've just written
                                      pages of allusions to secret concerns
                                      about hate speech and stuff that is
                                      frankly not a plausible explanation.
                                      The fact you're bring it up again shows
                                      maybe it hits you harder than you let on?
                    P.S. I don't know what the new grad market is like, but my
                    anecdotal sense is that the market is good and getting
                    better.  If you know your stuff, you should have no
                    difficulty finding a job.  The disclaimer applies to this
                    as well.
                    \_ There are real problems with hiring people with
                       good GPAs. Some of these are the same problems I
                       find with hiring people who are perhaps overeducated
                       for a particular job. They get bored easily and
                       bored turns into lazy, for example. They question
                       decisions made above them. In short, they are not
                       always good worker bees. You *can* have too many
                       chiefs and not enough Indians. Everyone wants to
                       feel important and everyone wants a challenging
                       job with opportunities for advancement, but no one
                       wants to work with someone who feels that they are
                       'doing time' until something better comes along
                       or they run off to grad school or whatever. Real
                       life story: I had a Caltech CS grad and a guy who
                       dropped out of a liberal arts college with the
                       equivalent of an AA. The latter guy was so much
                       better. He worked hard. He asked questions. He
                       put in extra hours. The Caltech guy had to be told
                       what to do and when he was done he showed no
                       initiative or desire for increased responsibility.
                       He saw work as a series of tasks to be completed.
                       He flirted with medical school and then grad school
                       and we all knew he'd be gone. We were glad when he
                       was. He was a smart guy who coasted along doing just
                       enough to get by. He was a terrible employee with
                       an inflated sense of self-worth and he was bad for
                       morale with his attitude. He really didn't care for
                       hard work and getting him to do mundane crap (as he
                       was, after all, entry level) was impossible. When
                       he did get a real task he'd suddenly take off skiing to
                       Mammoth with his friends, missing the deadline. In
                       short, a high GPA means you will probably do well
                       in grad school, not that you'll be a good employee.
                       \_ Nod.  I've had this discussion with many people, and
                          I'm glad to see that support exists for this
                          viewpoint on the motd too. -dans
                \_ Companies don't care about GPA now?  When I graduated
                   in 1996, Intel would only talk to people who met the
                   "cut-off GPA", which was 3.5.  AT&T's cut-off point
                   was 3.0, so was TI.  And these requirements weren't
                   from individual hiring managers but from their HR
                   \_ Yes, and it's stupid. So someone graduates from Cal
                      with a 3.4 and is rejected, while someone from, say,
                      Stanford (being generous) with a 3.5 is interviewed?
                      Stanford, while a good school, has incredible grade
                      inflation. Maybe they should hire based on SAT scores
                      or GRE scores or something. I think that would
                      actually be more meaningful than comparing GPAs
                      across programs and across universities - even as
                      a simple high-level filter.
                      P.S. I realize that a GPA shows a remarkably
                      different aptitude than a standardized test, but at
                      least the test scores can be compared reliably - at
                      least against others from the same testing year.
                   \_ I'm sure that many companies today do care about GPA,
                      and will continue to do so.  I simply have no interest
                      working for a company that a) cares about GPA and b) is
                      so rigid wrt a) that a group or hiring manager can't get
                      them to ignore it.  It's a personal choice, which, thus
                      far, has done well by me. -dans
                        \_ Removing the GPA from my resume was the fastest way
                           to turn getting no responses to lots of responses.
                           Turns out most people didn't really care, and it
                           only served to reduce offers.  I'm sure it would
                           have helped if I had a 3.8 GPA.  I still have an
                           almost 100% interview:job offer ratio.
                           \_ Last I talked to Google (2004), they kept
                              telling me over and over and over again that
                              they placed a lot of value on GPA.  I
                              suspect they still care a lot about it now.
                              \_ Yes, this is true.  Google places a lot of
                                 value on GPA for new college grads.  Which
                                 means that, if you put your gpa on your
                                 resume, it is below their threshold, and you
                                 submit your resume cold (i.e. not through a
                                 contact that works there), it is rejected
                                 outright.  They may reject what appears to be
                                 a ncg app outright if it does not include a
                                 gpa, in which case, if your gpa sucks, damned
                                 if you do, damned if you don't.  Or the
                                 absence of a gpa may get it past auto filters
                                 and into human hands, which is what you want.
                                 Also, note that Adam Bosworth works for
                                 google.  He would utterly fail the gpa/degree
                                 test.  But he's a superstar so, he's not
                                 necessarily pertinent to the discussion at
                                 hand. -dans
                                 \_ New grads?  I had been working for 10
                                    years when I interviewed with them.  I
                                    could only assume it was their polite
                                    way of saying, "sorry, your GPA sucks".
                                    Needless to say, they didn't extend me
                                    an offer.
                                    \_ Now that they're post-IPO why would
                                       anyone want to work there anyway?
                                       If you're a superstar making $1MM plus
                                       stock a year to do whatever you want,
                                       sure.  But for the smart but otherwise
                                       normal people out there?  They have
                                       nothing to offer anyone like that now.
                                       Hours are long, pay is below average,
                                       without a PhD you're going nowhere.
                                       \_ Just what exactly do these PhDs
                                          do at Google, anyway? You only
                                          need a few good guys for
                                          algorithm development. Isn't
                                          Google basically a marketing/media
                                          company at this point?
                                    \_ You've been working for 10 years, and
                                       you still include your GPA on your
                                       resume?  That looks kind of pathetic
                                       and desparate. -dans
                                       \_ 12 years now.  I didn't include
                                          my GPA.  Google insisted on
                                          knowing that information before
                                          second round interviews.
                              \_ To me this is just another data point that
                                 Google's hiring criteria are stupid. I know
                                 people working at Google I'd never hire,
                                 but they look good on paper. From what
                                 I know of the hiring process they make
                                 you feel like you should be lucky to be
                                 working for them. Any company that does
                                 that sucks. It would be interesting to
                                 note when Google's hiring policies changed
                                 and why. From an outsider point of view
                                 they seem to be hiring 'superstars' more
                                 for PR than to address actual needs, because
                                 they can. I've seen this lead to disaster
                                 when all of the rats desert the sinking
                                 ship after they've cashed their options.
                                 I'm not saying it will happen again, but
                                 I think it's been shown time and again
                                 that teams of superstars (whether sports,
                                 entertainment, science, or business) tend
                                 to underperform relative to the hype. I
                                 view it as Google's way of creating a buzz to
                                 fool sucker drones into thinking that they
                                 have a better job than they do.
                                 \_ Google has put a lot of effort into
                                    recruiting phd physicists to work there,
                                    with hiring ads in Physics Today etc.
                                    As a phd physicist, this strikes me as
                                    totally retarded.  I'm a pretty good
                                    physicist, but you'd have to be an idiot
                                    to hire me to write code.  I wouldn't hire
                                    me to write code.
                                    \_ I assume the job isn't writing code,
                                       but instead working on a technology
                                       to transform the heat from all of their
                                       servers back into electricity. Duh.
                                       Either that or the warp drive they
                                       are building. Remember, Google is
                                       not just a search engine. It's a
                                       conglomerate that is going to change
                                       the world.
                                       \_ Which doesn't do evil!  (well, unless
                                          it has no other convenient choice).
                                 \_ Um, that's a nice rant, but the sensible
                                    conclusion is that you don't want to work
                                    for google because you feel their hiring
                                    practices are stupid, and leading to
                                    disaster.  It's a perfectly reasonable
                                    opinion, but others may differ. -dans
2006/2/24-27 [Industry/Jobs] UID:41999 Activity:nil
2/24    Any good/bad experience to share about ubid?
        \_ I had a negative one about 4 years ago on an item they claimed
           had a mfr warranty that was an OEM product that didn't.  I had
           trouble getting either the mfr or ubid to make good on that when
           the product died.
        \_ I've used it to buy 2 monitors, one back in 2000, another last
           year.  Both were Sony, refurbished.  Both worked great and the
           buying process worked nice.  I like them, but I speaking from
           limited experience (2 purchases, one item category).
2006/2/15 [Academia/GradSchool, Industry/Jobs] UID:41871 Activity:low
2/15    new grad CS salaries slipping:
        \_ ME higher than CS?  How did it happen?
           \_ MEs build stuff. It has to work. CS monkey's sit around im'ing
              and playing WOW while siping latte's. If the code doesn't work,
              release note it.
2006/1/27-29 [Computer/Companies/Ebay, Industry/Jobs] UID:41562 Activity:low
1/26    Have a Paypal interview. any experience on what to expect?
        also have online preliminary test..
        \_  The way a company treats their customers
           says something about the kind of people in management.  But good
           luck on the interview.
          \_ thanks.. i told them i am no longer interested..
             \_ wow... picky.  should just go in to get the offer leverage.
             \_ Wow.  You could have at least gone in for the interview
                and asked them about the stuff on, which
                might have been interesting.
2006/1/8-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:41300 Activity:nil
        Hiring, firing. Hints for employers and employees. good luck.
2006/1/2-4 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:41200 Activity:high
1/2     A friend of mine is considering Peace Corps. I've heard that it used
        to be a good program but in the past 25 years has lost a lot of its
        original lustre, that countries need more help managing resources
        than 22 year olds teaching them about sanitation, etc. Does anyone
        have any experience w/ Peace Corps? Or know of any good  criticisms
        of the program? I'll start with:
        \_ Use tinyurl.  I just met a woman who is some sort of Africa
               \_ why?
                  \_ why?
                     \_ why ask why?
                        \_ why not?
                           \_ why ask why not?
                              \_ Why not ask why not?
           expert in the peace corps and who described a lot of what they
           do very openly.  Apparently there's still a lot of need for
           outfits like PC--NGOs, as they are not guaranteed funding, tend
           to be very self-interested.  If you like, I can put you in touch
           with her (she was a good friend's roommate at GWU Law.)  -John
           \_ My understanding is people who can teach English and maybe
              elementary math are a dime a dozen. If you are a Civil Engineer
              or Medical Professional, who may be quite a hot commodity.
              However, that may also mean you can go into a USAID project
              or MSF/DrsWithoutBorders type program. I dunno if a vast
              knowledge of say BGP can be used by the Peace Corps.
              The do have a lot of restrictions, but I assume you have
              discovered some of those in your preliminary research.
        \_ My cousin is currently in the Peace Corps in Latin America.
           He seems to enjoy the actual work he does (I think he has
           been involved in getting farmers access to new markets via
           the internet and other such programs based on micro loans,
           but I'm not 100% sure).
           He has expressed some reservations about the way the Peace
           Corps is administered and the fact that in some places local
           politics can get in the way of providing any real assistance.
           iirc, in one town where my cousin worked, the local mayor
           actively resisted any work done by Peace Corps ppl b/c he
           felt that they didn't really understand the local situation.
           One problem I've seen with the Peace Corps is that they don't
           really train the people with real world skills like building
           homes or paving or farming before sending them out (most of
           the people I know who did Peace Corps weren't engineers) so
           they end up in big or small cities where they can't really
           do anything very too useful.
           For historical reference, my mom used to tell me stories of
           people who did Peace Corps in India. She says they mostly
           acted like tourists, walking around from village to village,
           giving out money and stuff. Mostly she says it was pretty
           lame because in a country like India, a few random english
           majors can't solve inherent problems related to lack of
           education and opportunity.
           the internet and other such programs but I'm not 100% sure).
           I remember he described some problems with the way the PC
           is administered and local government resistance. If you
           want to talk to him, let me know and I'll try to put you
           in contact with him.
           want to talk to him, let me know and I'll try to get you
           some contact info (I don't think he has email access right
           now). --ranga
        \_ primrose got back recently from a tour in the corps in togo
        \_ My girlfriend spent two years in the Peace Corps in Honduras.
           We went to visit her adopted Honduran family a couple years
           ago.  I think her impression is that the Peace Corps does good
           work, but the problems tend to be endemic and difficult to
           overcome.  It's certainly true that the Corps and all NGOs
           have great difficulty effecting change, due to local politics,
           corruption, and poverty.
           It is worth noting that the Peace Corps doesn't sponsor projects;
           Peace Corps volunteers are assigned to a project run by a local
           organization or NGO.  There is also a wide range of types of
           work to do, from health and science education, to business
           development, to engineering.  Apparently taxidermy is one of
           the most sought-after skills due to the huge problems of
           species endangerment and extinction in poor countries.
           It is a truism that Peace Corps volunteers get more out of the
           experience than the countries get out of the programs.  -tom
           \_ Join the Peace Corps: travel to exotic countries, encounter
              interesting and stimulating species of ancient eras.... and
              embalm them.
        \_ If I join the peace corps, will I get to have sex with all
           the local girls???? -what sodans really want to know!
           \_ "get to"?
2005/12/13-15 [Industry/Jobs] UID:41001 Activity:nil
12/13   Hiring the A-Team via Craigslist:
        \_ Old.
           \_ I've never seen it before -- it's hilarious!  I'm glad it was
              posted again.                   -mice
              \_ seconded
2005/12/7-9 [Computer/SW/Database, Computer/SW/Security, Industry/Jobs] UID:40906 Activity:nil
12/7    We're looking for interns for a 3-5 month project helping us
        populate our security policy database for various windows applications.
        The work involves installing the application, using it for a while,
        determining the appropriate security policy, and entering it
        in to a database.  Work is 15+ hours a week (however much you want
        to work above min. 15 is fine), pays $12-$15 an hour, and can be
        done offsite from the comfort of your own home.
        email if you are interested.
        \_ Don't you know students don't read motd?
           \_ Good point. i should email jobs@csua
2005/12/1-4 [Computer/SW/Database, Industry/Jobs] UID:40801 Activity:nil
12/1    myvest is looking for a senior java developer with strong oracle
        skills.  if interested, email
        \_ Do you sell vests?
           \_ Are they made from real gorilla chests?
              \_ There's no better than authentic Irish Setter.
2005/11/30-12/2 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40773 Activity:nil
        UC Top Salaries dominated by the School of Medicine.
        \_ That's not just UC schools. Med schools have to pay their
           faculty a lot, to be competent with private hospitals/practices.
                                \_ i think you meant "competitive"
                                        \_ oops, you're right! -pp
           Not that academic salaries are anywhere close still.
        \_ where does the  other compensation come from?
2005/11/23-26 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40713 Activity:nil
11/23   Miss the dot-com hiring frenzy?  Become a nurse! (
        "The shortage is expected to worsen as nurses--whose average age is
        nearing 50--retire in waves. Those retirements will be in full swing
        just as the oldest baby boomers are reaching their 70s ..."
        \_ except that nurses actually have to do real work.  -tom
           \_ so did most of us during the dotcom craze.
              \_ Except we didn't get overtime pay.  In fact we didn't even
                 get any pay for overtime.
                 \_ You could've been a nurse.  Then you'd have to work hard
                    hanging out at the nurse's station.  Maybe fill out some
                    paperwork.  Or even bring food to a patient sometimes,
                    but not too often because the union says thats not ok.
                    \_ thank gawd for Ah-nold, who is always kicking the butts
                       of nurses!
        \_ A registered nurse makes much more moeny than a nurse.
           \_ by "nurse" do you mean nursing assistant, LPN, both, or
              predominantly one or the other?
        \_ Do you want to wipe the asses of the incontinent old and terminal
           AIDS patients?
           \_ Then another option is pharmacist.  No direct contact with
              patients except when you have to man the cash register when the
              pharmacy technicians are out.
              \_ Isn't that mind-numbingly boring? Measure this, enter data
                 in computer, measure that, enter data, ad nauseam.
                 \_ heh... sorta sounds like a bartender
                    \_ Except the chances are a lot higher you'll kill
                       people if you're not so great at your job.
        \_ In the dotcom hiring frenzy they were actually paying well. The
           reason theres a shortage of nurses is because they dont pay that
        \_ I like the photo of the one guy there -op
2005/11/16-18 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40628 Activity:low 75%like:40621
11/16   Can Retailers discriminate/not hire based on looks?
        \_ No. They sent the ugly ones in the backroom to
           to stock, inventory, and cleaning. For every
           pretty face in front there are at least 3 ugly
           people working in the backroom.
        \_ Sure they can. Being ugly is not a protected class.
           \_ Imagine equal opportunity strip clubs.
                \_ ouch!
                   \_ That would kill the business.  The average American has
                      as much sex appeal as a road accident.
                      \_ Uhm, I don't think that's unique to Americans, man.
                         \_ It's "more" unique to Americans than most
                            \_ Which, in context, is still meaningless.
              \_ Most strip clubs do it financially without fear of being sued
                 for discrimination. Hold an "amateur night" as a tryout. If
                 they don't win, they aren't hired. BTW most strippers are
                 considered contractors who have to pay stage fees in order to
                 dance. If they don't get tips, they are losing money.
        \_ Legally, not as such. However, there are plenty of ways around this
           without actually saying, "We don't hire fatties." Compare/contrast
           with Japan, where such blatantly discrimination is common place.
           \_ what are the best excuses?
              \_ "Thank you for your interest. We have a lot of applicants,
                  and while your application was strong, we went with a
                  stronger match."
        \_ I've been wondering how Hooters (not a retailer) managed to hire
           only hot chicks and yet avoid lawsuits.
           \_ Hooters said it's a bona fide occupational qualification.
              \_ Thanks!!!
              \_ Time to open up a chain of "longcox" restaurants
                 \_ "Thank you for your interest. We have a lot of applicants,
                    and while your application was long, we went with a
                    longer match."
2005/11/16 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40621 Activity:kinda low 75%like:40628
11/16   Can Retailers discrimated/not hire based on looks?
        \_ Sure they can. Being ugly is not a protected class.
           \_ Imagine equal opportunity strip clubs.
2005/11/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Industry/Jobs] UID:40464 Activity:nil
11/6    1590:
        \_ 2016    -mice
        \_ is there any actual skill component to this?
           \_ um, well if you are really patient (bored) you can line
              them up beforehand in chain reactive patterns. that said,
              I'm still just 1037
              \_ ok, now 2193. - pp
                 \_ If I see any scores being posted on Monday, that will
                    be indicative of how much work you have at your job.
                    \- 3574, but i outsourced to a CHINESE VILLAGE
                       \_ hope you got a screenshot or those poor little
                          guys worked for nothing
        \_ There are bugs in this.
2005/10/31-11/2 [Industry/Jobs, Uncategorized/Spanish] UID:40368 Activity:kinda low
10/31   No name employer X offered a nice job but gave me only 2 weeks to
        respond. Big name employer Y has just started interviewing me
        (phone) but X offer will expire in 3 days. What's the best way
        to delay X? By the way for tech jobs how long do offers
        usually last? 2 weeks? 2 months?
        \_ All the stuff below is true.  However, you must also consider
           which place you'd actually want to work at if salary wasn't an
           issue.  Your work environment is more important than your income
           after reaching a certain income level.  I've walked away from very
           high paying jobs because I absolutely hated going in everyday.
        \_ I've had this exact situation come up before.  When I got the
           offer from company X, I told them I had promised company Y that
           I would give them <insert number> time and asked if they were
           willing to leave the offer open.  The HR person said no, but the
           hiring manager overrode her.  Offer letters almost always expire
           in about a week to ten days unless the company has a 2nd choice
           they don't want to lose if the 1st choice falls through, or if
           there is budgeting pressure, such as a potential hiring freeze
           when the fiscal Q4 starts...
        \_ Take the offer from X. If you get Y then tell them. This
           happens all the time. People stress over it, but that's
           reality. They have no problem firing your ass, so don't feel
           guilty if you have to tell them 3 days in that you are leaving
           for Y. They'll be upset, but they won't blacklist you or
           \_ Basically, you can expect that you will no longer be welcome at
              X anymore, if you ever end up wanting to go back to them.
              If you think you may end up wanting to work for X one day, tell
              them straight up you think their offer is good, but you would
              like more time to evaluate your options.  Sound reasonable?
              \_ Yes, I agree that X may not take you back again. However,
                 they may. It's not deceitful to leave in that situation.
                 How often do people gets offers after they've already taken
                 'their best'? OTOH, if you ask them for more time you may end
                 up with neither X nor Y. The best way to play it is to
                 take X unless there's some overwhelming reason you don't
                 even want to risk pissing them off.
                 \_ I think the risk/benefit is better for my option than yours
                    in general, but I guess you think the opposite.
                    Anyway, plenty of room for opinion, op can decide.
                    \_ Depends on how badly you need a job. If OP can risk
                       losing both then go for it. I really needed a job.
                       At some point X will say 'Is there some reason you
                       are taking so long to decide?' at which point you either
                       need to take X or risk losing it. You can't have cake
                       and eat it, too. My point is that if you upset X
                       it's not the end of the world. If you don't have
                       to, because you have the luxury of time/money then
                       don't. Don't worry about working for X again,
                       because if you don't want to work there now, then
                       why would you want to later? That's when you need
                       to shit or get off the pot. IOW, your strategy is
                       better but only works for so long. Eventually,
                       you come to the same point in the process (where
                       you must decide). In that case, just take X. There are
                       a lot more companies out there and X may even forgive.
                       More than likely, X will become a distant memory
                       anyway. I am most grateful for the jobs I didn't
                       get/hang on to.
                \_ I say it IS deceitful. They probably tell their other
                   candidates that the job is taken. Having said that, it's
                   probably not that big a deal. But, it's a small world and
                   you might just be screwing yourself a bit down the road
                   even if it doesn't involve X anymore. So I'd try hard not
                   to do that.
                   \_ It is not deceitful to leave X for Y if you've
                      already given up on Y and then they offer you the
                      job later (for example). There are lots of legitimate
                      reasons you might take X and then leave shortly afer.
                      We've had people relocate and then they get homesick
                      (or their wife does). X doesn't have to know the
                      specifics. They'll understand.
                      \_ Uh, in this case you haven't given up on Y and
                         are still actively pursuing jobs while accepting X.
                         I say it's deceitful. Whatever.
                         \_ How would you ever get another job if you
                            inform your current employer every time you
                            are interviewing?
        \_ Offers are anywhere from 3 days to a whole year or more if you
           interned and they loved you.  But in most cases, I'd say it averages
           a week to 1.5 weeks depending on when they offered.
        \_ Tell Big Name Employer Y that you're considering another job offer,
           and if they want to stay in the running, they need to move you
           through their interview process quickly.
           \_ This does work and you should do this, but it won't help
              with whether to take X or not. I've found it can prod Y
              into faster action, though. ("Are you going to make me an
              offer or not?") If Y still diddles you are at Square One.
        \_ Ethically, you should do a hybrid of the suggestions. Tell X you
           are interviewing with Y and ask for an extension. Tell Y you have
           a job offer and query if they can expedite your interview process.
           However, You can't ask X to hold you a place forever. At some point,
           you'll need to decide if you want job X or job Y. Figure that out
           and apply as directed.
           \_ Yes, and if Y hasn't made an offer then just take X. If
              later Y comes through and you prefer Y then just take Y and
              leave X. This is simple, folks.
2005/10/25-27 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40265 Activity:nil
10/25   Senior Software Engineer opening at Lyris.
        I am the hiring manager. -- jsjacob
        \_ Permission denied
           \_ Mea culpa. Fixed. -- jsjacob
2005/10/17-19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40136 Activity:low
10/17   What's the purpose of HR in a company?  Is it to bring in the best
        people at the lowest possible cost?  Just curious cuz I'm going
        through the process...
        \_ there's a great deal of employer/employee relationship things
           that HR in a company normally takes care of.  Quite a bit more
           than could easily be covered in a motd post.
           \_ In terms of job offers, however, is that essentially what their
              "duty" is (to get someone to accept at the lowest price)?  Do
              they somehow have incentive to get someone to accept at lower
              salary ranges?
              \_ Probably not.  Acutally lots of HR people don't have much
                 leeway on hiring price.  HR does a lot more than just hire
                 people.  Benefits, payroll, handling employee conflicts,
                 workers comp, dealing with unions, etc etc.  There's a lot
                 of crap that falls into HRs laps.
                 \_ crap is an understatement.
        \_ why are you asking, anyway?
           \_ I'm curious, that's all.  Plus it doesn't hurt to know how the
              salary process works.
        \_ "It depends".  Ranges from "tell this guy I am hiring about legal
           stuff and arrange contract/$$$" to actually hiring, dealing with
           trainings and evaluations, firing, management development, etc.
           Varies enormously by company.  Usually non-management HR is
           staffed by planks (general observation.)  -John
        \_ The cruel truth is that HR's main role is to prevent the Company
           from being sued.  ie., all the employee happy relations programs,
           mediations, comp/benefit structures, compliance, training, etc.
           That's my understanding.  --chris (who was in HR and recruiting)
2005/10/16-18 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:40129 Activity:nil
10/16   So any sun old timers still reading the motd? I was recently named a
        SARC "intern" and I wanted to find out if anyone has been through the
        "intern" process and if they had any tips/pointers. txn.
        \_ I'm a Sun "old timer" in several ways, especially if you count me
           playing with the first prototypes when I was 11 years old ... I
           was a Sun intern in summer of 1991 and had a blast.  My take from
           that was that if you actually do useful work and get anything
           accomplished you can get a job there once you graduate (I did).
           You get to meet Scott McNealy and hear his puppy calendar stories
           and for me it was the most fun I've ever had in a job, especially
           with the huge water battle between SunSoft and SunLabs. -eric
           \_ maybe I wasn't clear - I'm a staff eng at sun and I was put
              on the Software ARC (arch. review committee), and I wanted
              to get some pointers on what ARC members do, &c.
                \_ Nope that wasn't clear.  I joined Sun as an MTS-1 and only
                   worked there 2 1/2 years so I never got anywhere in that
                   regard -eric
              \_ neato.  sounds like a paper pushing job.
                 \_ From what I can tell it is mostly paper pushing, but
                    this is in addition to my regular job, so it just
                    means more work for me.
2005/10/9-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:40029 Activity:moderate
10/9    Is it legal for a developer or someone to use your homeowner's
        association fee for anything other than community improvement?
        Is it possible for some of the money to go back to the developer?
        \_ It depends on what you agreed to. It might be okay for them
           to use some of the money for "administrative expenses", but
           if they are pocketing a large portion of it you might have
           something to complain about.
2005/10/5-6 [Industry/Jobs, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:39990 Activity:moderate
10/5    Hypothetical question: Suppose there's a shortage of resources,
        should the free market take its course which will hopefully
        make self-corrections, or should the government intervene and
        ration resources? What are the pros and cons for either approaches?
        \_ don't know about pro and con, I just know that in reality,
           free market is never allowed to distribute critical/essential
           resources anywhere in the world during severe shortage, rather
           it is food, water,  petro, or steel.
        \_ It happens everyday.  A house costs more than an apple because
           houses are harder to build and require more resources to do so
           than an apple.  A car costs more than an apple but less than a
           house for the same reason.  What is your question?
                 \- A1 steak sauce is $5. You can get a DVD player for $30.
                    I am not sure these things are really "a priori".
                    \_ Wrong comparison.  How about comparing the A1 to the
                       B&O DVD player instead, or the generic brand sauce to
                       the no-namo DVD player?  Either the more expensive one
                       took more work/more expensive ingredients, or they
                       successfully created an artificial demand (viz.
                       Godiva $5 chocolate covered strawberries.)  Either
                       way you've proven that the market sets prices.  -John
                       \- i am not sure what your point is but i didnt
                          really elabroate on mine. 10 years ago i think
                          somebody reflecting on "how difficult is it to
                          make steak sauce vs a dvd player" probably would
                          not have guessed the difference in price would
                          be under 6:1. so this idea of "difficulty" is
                          probably not meaningful outside the mkt price.
                          i am getting at the notion of price signals
                          in the hayakian sense. in fact i think you
                          should abandon the whole notion of "difficulty
                          to build" or resource use and just look at things
                          more abstractly ... this building/resource approach
                          might apply to mfgring [but really you have to
                          look at return on optimal mix of K,L since something
                          can become "easier" by investing more money] but
                          really doesnt apply to something like haircuts.
                          in the abstract setting you consider price,
                          willingness to pay, the difference being consumer
                          surplus, the marginal and average costs and then
                          thigns can get more complicated when you factor
                          in asymmetric information [like when the same
                          in assymetric information [like when the same
                          disposable contact lenses were sold at different
                          prices because they were labelled for diff #hrs].
                          here is an interesting question: movies clearly
                          cost $10m to $200m+ ... but why are all movie
                          tickets ~$10.
                          \_ Partha, It would be much easier to reply to you
                             if you used a spelling checker and didn't
                             ramble for 3 pages.  As it is, I don't assume
                             that you're interested.  -John
                          \_ Because the cost of a $200m is spread over a
                             much larger number of viewers.  A blockbuster
                             will make a billion $ in sales (us, domestic, and
                             dvd) vs a less expensive film which is also less
                             likely to be known and recover it's costs.  Also,
                             a big chunk of the "cost" of a $200m film is in
                             marketing and PR and often a $50MM/film hollywood
                             actor.  I suspect most films will do just as well
                             or as poorly without all that junk heaped on top
                             of the base production cost.  For example, the
                             Spiderman flick did super well with a no-name
                             actor (and now every moron in hollywood wants to
                             be a super hero) but Electra was a total bomb and
                             so was Dare Devil with well known actors who made
                             oodles more cash than the SM kid.  Ok, nvm, I'm
                             way off topic and now ranting about the stupidity
                             of hollywood.  I feel better now.  :-)
           \_ Why can't I afford to buy a house when I am a hardworking
              intelligent person, while some dot-com millionaire who got
              his money through sheer good luck instead of hard work lives
              in a mansion and has a hot girlfriend?
              \_ Because you live in the Bay area(or southern california).
              \_ Because you live in the Bay area (or southern california).
                 It really is that simple.  Anywhere else in the country
                 you'd be able to afford a home.  No, I don't know how much
                 you make, but in most of the country, buying a house with
                 a 25k/year salary is feasable.
              \_ You should've gone to medical school.
              \_ This is why I stopped being a coder and went to law
                 BTW, perhaps you should look down as well as up - there
                 are BILLIONS of people in this world who weren't lucky
                 enough to be born into a country where opportunity and
                 prosperity is everywhere and hardly anyone concerns
                 themselves about things like potable water and edible
                 food. One may easily ask what EXACTLY we did to deserve
                 our comfortable existence while everyone else continues
                 to struggle just to survive.
                 \_ Except many lawyers don't make all that much more than
                    a good s/w engineer. There might be more job security,
                    but maybe not. Medical school is your best bet.
                    \_ The problem w/ engineering is that there is no
                       long term job prospect - esp. in the valley.
                       Whatever your skill set is, it eventually goes
                       stale and some young kid is going to be better
                       at your job and mgmt can get rid of you and pay
                       him less to get the same work.
                       The practice of law is different, experience counts
                       and many practice areas never go stale b/c people
                       keep having the same problems over and over again.
                       BTW, the pay is better ~ 110-125K start.
                       \- also lawyers and doctors are smarter about
                          restricting competition.
                          \_ Are lawyers and doctors smarter about restricting
                             competition, or is less competent engineering
                             more acceptable (in the sense less subject to
                             remedy by the court system) than less competent
                             medical or legal service?  Not in the sense that
                             foreign engineers are less competent, but that
                             official certification of engineering training
                             has greater value.
                             \_ I think he means that you can't practice
                                as a doctor/lawyer unless you pass an exam
                                and its reasonably hard to pass that exam.
                                There is nothing comparable to that in eng.
                                Sure there is PE, but outside of Civil hardly
                                anyone cares.  In coding I'm not exactly
                                sure what difference an exam would make
                                b/c most of the really good coders I've met
                                were mathematicians, physicists, &c. rather
                                than EE/CS so an exam might actually keep
                                good people out.
                                Re less competent engineering - Just work
                                on any big project and you will find lots
                                of stuff that doesn't work or wasn't well
                                thought out, &c. The impact of something
                                like this is less unlike giving someone
                                the wrong medication or failing to file
                                a motion in a timely fashion, &c. At worst
                                you will lose some money.
                                    \- the practice is law is defined very
                                       broadly [see the infamous Nolo v.
                                       Texas case. I actually wonder if
                                       HARRIET THE JUDGE had a role in that]
                                       as are medical practices ... like
                                       you cannot to the best of my knowledge
                                       go to a dental hygenist for a tooth
                                       cleaning without a dentist involved
                                       or go to an optician for a an
                                       eye power measurement. however a non
                                       PE engineer can do lots of work. my
                                       parent never bothered to get a PE till
                                       maybe 15yrs after his phd and had
                                       billions of dollars of projects
                                       under his belt. in the 70s the AMA
                                       made certain certification test changes
                                       specfically targetted at incoming
                                       russian and indian doctors. i actually
                                       think there are a fair number of sort
                                       of iffy doctors. as they saying goes,
                                       "what do they call the guy who graduated
                                       at the bottom of his med school class?"
                                       "doctor". but yeah, probably fewer
                                       leem doctors because there arent that
                                       many med schools. there are a lot of
                                       clown lawyers and a huger number of
                                       leem law schools and some of them may
                                       have automatic bar pass ... i doubt
                                       a lot of the PDs in boise are very good.
                                       \_ no matter how many clown lawyers
                                       \_ not matter how many clown lawyers
                                          there are - and I agree there are
                                          lots and lots of clowns - there
                                          are clearly many more clown eng-
                                          ineers. It doesn't take much to
                                          get an engineering degree or to
                                          find a entry level engineering
                                          job. Maybe you don't meet these
                                          \_ I believe it is harder to get an
                                             engineering degree than a law
                                             \_ Law school seems far
                                                more difficult to me.
                                                In engineering you
                                                could get by w/o do-
                                                ing much (I managed
                                                3.0+ and I can barely
                                                \_ Did you take any humanities
                                                   classes? Anyone can get
                                                   a 3.0 at a CSU and get
                                                   into a mediocre law
                                                   school. Overall, I find
                                                   the average engineer to
                                                   be much smarter than
                                                   the average lawyer.
                                                   \- I was pretty much in
                                                      the middle of the pack
                                                      in upper div and grad
                                                      math/science classes
                                                      I took, but I was
                                                      definitely "order of
                                                      coif" the ConLaw,
                                                      coif"/summa in ConLaw,
                                                      I took (and at the dumb
                                                      end of a few seminars),
                                                      but I was definitely
                                                      "order of coif"/summa
                                                      cum laude in ConLaw,
                                                      Law&Econ, BusinessLaw,
                                                      Legal Philosophy, Legal
                                                      History and Law Seminars
                                                      I took.
                                                      I took, however these
                                                      were in academic depts,
                                                      not the law school for
                                                      the most part. (--not PP)
                                                      the most part. The people
                                                      in philosophy were prob
                                                      the smartest humanities
                                                      people. (--not PP)
                                                      people and a few smart
                                                      in econ. Pol Sci and Bus
                                                      school people were dumb
                                                      or apathetic usually.
                                                      (--not PP)
                                                      in my experience hum/
                                                      socsci grad students
                                                      in legit depts who are
                                                      legit admits are usually
                                                      sharper than most Boalt
                                                      students. (--not PP)
                                                   \_ I took a few, but
                                                      I mostly avoided
                                                      humanities b/c they
                                                      were a lot more work
                                                      than upper-division
                                                      engineering classes.
                                                      I'm guessing that if
                                                      someone like me can
                                                      make it through cal
                                                      engineering, it must
                                                      be *really* easy to
                                                      get an engineering
                                          jokers in the ivory tower, but
                                          I used to bump into them every
                                          day in the valley.
                                          \- hello, accroding to Bureau
                                             of Labor Statistics:
                                             compared to ~.9million people
                                             licensed to practice law.
                                             \_ Maybe I'm reading this
                                                wrong but according to
                                                there are about 700K
                                                lawyers, while there
                                                are about 1.5 million
                                                engineers (+ 675K soft-
                                                ware engineers:
                                                \- there are a lot of
                                                   "paraengineers" who may
                                                   be called engineers, while
                                                   there are paralegals who
                                                   are not lawyers. i have to
                                                   go to mcdonalds now.
                                       russian and indian doctors.
                                                   \_ so what? is your
                                                      determination of
                                                      what an engineer
                                                      is somehow more
                          \_ I read an article in WSJ that says lots of
                             companies are outsourcing jobs to lawyers in
                             India (eg. patent research).  It also says
                             that in India job status ranking is:
                              engineer > doctor > accoutant > lawyer
                             Is that true?
                             \_ Re outsourcing - what I've seen is
                                that some of the grunt work of writing
                                a patent and lots of the prior art
                                searching has been moved offshore,
                                but the real legal work (esp. in
                                litigation and patent counseling
                                remains here).
                                Re India job ranking - partially true.
                                Software engineers are at the top of
                                the totem pole, but regular engineers
                                aren't that highly regarded b/c there
                                are so many of them. Until about 6 or
                                7 yrs ago, the top job was IAS (Indian
                                Administrative Service - civil servants).
                                \_ Re: outsourcing, yes this is true. However,
                                   many lawyers think that the grunt work
                                   is where lots of good skills are
                                   learned. You don't start at the top.
                                   It's akin to outsourcing medical
                                   residents, but not practicing doctors.
                                   FWIW, lots of radiology is also being
                                   outsourced so medicine is not 100% safe
                                Re India job ranking - partially true.
                                Software engineers are at the top of
                                the totem pole, but regular engineers
                                aren't that highly regarded b/c there
                                are so many of them. Until about 6 or
                                7 yrs ago, the top job was IAS (Indian
                                Administrative Service - civil servants).
                                Being a doctor was an okay line of work
                                but it didn't really fetch you much more
                                money than anyone else.
                             medical or legal service?
                                \_ Re: outsourcing, yes this is true. However,
                                   many lawyers think that the grunt work
                                   is where lots of good skills are
                                   learned. You don't start at the top.
                                   It's akin to outsourcing medical
                                   residents, but not practicing doctors.
                                   FWIW, lots of radiology is also being
                                   outsourced so medicine is not 100% safe
                       \_ No, you are wrong regarding the valley, but you
                          have to work your way pretty far up the food chain
                          to realize that.
                          \_ I know lots of people who have been working
                             in the valley for 25+ yrs and I'm pretty
                             sure its true. Unless you move into mgmt
                             or something, there are no longer term
                             \_ Trust me, you're wrong.  The trick is not
                                "25+ years" but rather "pretty far up the
                                food chain".  There are engineers with 25+
                                years of experience who are mostly worthless,
                                just as there are engineers whose worth never
                                \_ Maybe so, but what I noticed was that
                                   high on the food chain positions mostly
                                   went to politically connected people
                                   rather than competent people (this is
                                   at a big company - maybe startups and
                                   vc firms are better).
                                   at a big company though).
                                   Anyway, making it high up the food
                                   chain wasn't really an option for
                                   me, so I chose something w/ more
                                   stability and similar (or slightly
                                   higher) pay.
                                   \_ I can drop names if you wish.  Are you
                                      at Sun?  The first generation of DE's
                                      were mostly impressive, and many are
                                      still technical.  I am friends with
                                      several (ehf, agn, and tvh--ehf is
                                      officially a vp, tho he's still technical
                                      and has no direct reports, i think; agn
                                      got burned and is back at cmu again, i
                                      hear; tvh is still retired, though his
                                      role was technical and not managerial at
                                      artx).  I am less sure of the current
                                      crop of Sun DE's.  I was more thinking
                                      of Gunning or Dobberpuhl when I answered
                                      your original claim.
                                      \_ I'm at Sun. I've met some current
                                      \_ I'm Sun. I've met some current
                                         DEs and I wasn't impressed - they
                                         were mostly political appointees.
                                         The major exception was Diffie,
                                         but he's Diffie and I'm just random
                                         My promotion from MTS to Staff
                                         The promotion from MTS to Staff
                                         Eng. also seemed to have a lot more
                                         to do w/ politics than skill, which
                                         was disheartening, esp. considering
                                         I was responsible for a moderately
                                         successful product that actually
                                         makes money vs. the people who were
                                         considering my promotion hadn't
                                         shipped an actual product in 5+ yrs.
                                         shipped a actual product in 5+ yrs.
                                         I've also gone through the ARC
                                         several times and the people were
                                         pretty useless but they certainly
                                         had job stability.
                                         I also worked w/ some of the orig.
                                         UNIX team at Bell Labs and saw
                                         them get forced out b/c of bs
                                         politics by complete tools.
                                            \_ This is probably because
                                               lots of the 1st generation
                                               were academics. They have
                                               given way (necessarily,
                                               IMO) to businessmen who are
                                               less special but possess a
                                               different set of skills.
                                         Maybe I'm just a little jaded.
                                         I figure the legal thing is a
                                         bit better b/c you can get a
                                         decent practice going and just
                                         stick to that.
                                         \_ The first generation of DE's were
                                            all pretty special, and even the
                                            senior staffs from that era were
                                            significantly smart.  Since then,
                                            I've been told DE's have beomce
                                            yet another promotion and are now
                                            much less special.
                                food chain".
                                \_ The people I know are at senior staff
                                   eng. or principal eng. (or mgmt equiv
                                   at director).  I guess if you can make
                                   DE or VP you can get some measure of
                                   job security but I don't know too many
                                   people who can get that far.
                                         politics by complete fools.
                                            \_ This is probably because
                                               lots of the 1st generation
                                               were academics. They have
                                               given way (necessarily,
                                               IMO) to businessmen who are
                                               less special but possess a
                                               different set of skills.
                       \_ The pay is marginally better. If you look at
                          salary averages there are a lot of lawyers not
                          making even $100K.
                          \_ Sure, but most lawyers aren't in technical
                             practice areas (patent, copyright). So few
                             lawyers can understand the science/technology
                             needed that the pay is much higher in those
                             \_ Well, this is like comparing the salary
                                of a surgeon to a pediatrician. Most
                                lawyers COULD NOT PRACTICE in a technical
                                area if they wanted to.
                    \_ The problem w/ engineering is that whatever your
                       skill set it eventually goes stale and some young
                       kid is going to be better at your job and mgmt can
                       get rid of you and pay him less to get the same
                       The practice of law is different - and if you don't
                       like one area of practice or that area starts to
                       dry up you can always go work for a real estate
                       or insurance firm.
                       \_ No, you are wrong.  But you have to work your way
                          pretty far up the food chain to realize that.
                                \_ sure, but I was responding to wages
                                   in comparison to being a coder - the
                                   income potential for a former coder
                                   lawyer in a tech practice is quite
           \_ If the price naturally rises, it will allow substitutes which
              were previously not feasible to enter the market.  So allowing
              the price to rise will potentially increase total supply.
              \- it depends why there is a shortage. govt intervention !=
                 govt should provide/subsidize it. govt repsonses can include
                 things like changing ip regime. if you want a generic frame-
                 work to think about this, do mircoecon. if you want to talk
                 about a spcific case, you should mention what it is. in the
                 real world it's often unclear what constitutes a "shortage"
                 [is there a shortage of diamonds?] just like it is often
                 unclear if a firm has market (monopoly) power. also a "supply
                 shock" is not the same as a persistent shortage, say in the
                 case of water or power. the govt probably should not intervene
                 in the RARE MAGIC CARD mkt. and finally it depends on the
                 govt. a bad govt can clearly make things worse. see e.g.
                 AK Sen's work on famines.
        \_ I agree there is a shortage of h07 42n ch1x in san jose.
        \_ I agree there is a shortage of h07 42n ch1x in the bay area.
           SOMETHING must be done!
           \_ free h07 4zn ch1x for 1337 c0d3r5! w00t!
              his money through sheer good luck lives in a mansion and has
              a hot girlfriend?
                 case of water or power.
2005/10/3-5 [Industry/Jobs, Recreation/Travel] UID:39962 Activity:nil
10/3    Going to be in SF on business. Any recommendations for hotels? So far
        I am leaning towards the Omni or the Mandarin Oriental. Four
        Seasons and Ritz are out (cost). Anyone have experience with those
        two or know one better in the same price range (<=$300/night)? --dim
        \_ Mark Hopkins and Nikko are both nice. Park Hyatt is good if you
           want to be in the financial district, but otherwise boring.
           \_ Any experience with those I mentioned? I was considering
              Park Hyatt, since it costs a lot less but it also seems less
              \_ My parents really like it. Their bathroom on the 2nd floor
                 has the best toilet paper I've ever used. For a five star
                 hotel, it seems very basic and no frills, without the pure
                 brand name of the other hotels mentioned above. I've never
                 been to NYC, but it has that feeling (e.g. guys with weird
                 hats who open doors for you)
        \_ W if you like really dark hallways with dim blue lighting and you
           like everyone dressed in black. The rooms are cozy though.
           \_ "W" was an option, but I think is out because of the
              location and some negative reviews I read on tripadvisor.
        \_ Shame you can't spring for Four Seasons or the Ritz, but if you
           happen to find the extra budget, go for Four Seasons.  Great
           hotel.  The views from the MO are great, but I thought my room
           was small, and it wasn't nearly as posh as the MO's in the Orient.
           My cousin swears by the Huntington, and he's something of an
           expert on luxury hotels (he spends ~100 nights a year in hotels).
           I've never visited, so I can't speak from 1st person experience
           I've never visited, so I can speak from 1st person experience
           though. -tse
           \_ OBTW, I've been told the regular rooms at the Ritz Carlton
              feel old.  I can attest that the club rooms (IMHO the only
              reason to stay at RC properties anyway) are very nice.  -tse
              \- IMHO, campton place food > huntington food.
2005/9/28-30 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39918 Activity:nil
9/28    High Times magazine hiring:
2005/9/22-23 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39819 Activity:nil
9/22    My group is looking to hire a part-time student sysadmin:
        /csua/pub/jobs/Linux_Cluster_Admin_UCB_EECS_Student   -mikeh
2005/9/16-19 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39711 Activity:nil
9/16    I'm currently a software engineer at a mid-size company... thinking
        of taking a contract job at a small company that would be able to
        convert to a full-time job in the future (basically they've already
        offered me full-time but I'd like a contract to try them out and
        see how the work/environment is) ... how much more should I ask
        for given that I'm (1) switching jobs, and (2) going to a contract
        from a FT salary. I'm guessing health ins (thru COBRA or free-
        lancers union?) will cost around ~$300/month at most? thanks
        \_ The usual add on is +25-30% of salary. This includes SS, medical,
           dental, vision, life insurance, overhead, etc.
        \_ I usually get 2-2.5x for short contracts.  You should get paid
           for the extra flexibility the contract affords the employer and
           for the extra risk you're carrying.
        \_ good god, why is health insurance that expensive??
           \_ Your company health insurance is expensive because it is not
              underwritten.  COBRA is just a continuation of that.
           \_ Have you ever had surgery? If you have, you know why. Even
              tests like MRIs are a couple of thousand bucks. A moderately
              complicated surgery will cost tens of thousands.
           \_ I suspect ridiculous health insurance costs would receive a
              lot more objection if people actually paid them themselves,
              rather than letting their employers eat the expense.
        \_ sounds like work environment is pretty important to you, and that
           you must have it pretty good at your current job.  make sure
           that money will be worth the sacrifice of your happiness.
           \_ current job is ok ... good in some ways. "change is good" ...
2005/9/5-6 [Recreation/Shopping, Industry/Jobs, Recreation/Dating] UID:39511 Activity:high
9/5     I patronized a Walmart for the first time, and it was a spectacular
        shopping experience.  The people there were incredibly helpful, even
        after it became obvious that I would not be buying from them.  My wife
        so appreciated their helpfulness that she kept asking me if there was
        some way to tip them or otherwise pay them for their service.  Two
        big thumbs up on Walmart from my wife and I.
        \_ No DUH!!! They are first and foremost a business. They train
           employees to be nice to everyone, and even teach them how to
           talk to liberals in such a way that even liberals will start to
           shop at Walmart. I have no problem with the way front-end clerks
           treat the people. It is the back-end of Walmart that is fucked up.
           \_ I was treated much worse at the Costco a block away, where
              the employee told me to fuck off, though he did do it politely.
              The Walmart employees (I was helped by 3 of them) were helpful
              even after it was obvious that I would not be buying from
              them.  In fact, that visit to Walmart was possibly the best
              shopping experience I've ever had.  The only other comparable
              service experience was when the concierge at my Paris hotel
              (the Hotel de Crillon, also highly recommended) got me same-day
              tapes of the World Series and delivered hot dogs room service
              (and I had to pay for the hot dogs). -op
                   \- Was the concierge hot?
              \- g'vitch: boy i sure wouldnt have predicted CRILLON to come up
                 in a WALMART thread. did you have the SUPER CALVADOS? (at the
                 Hotel Crillon, not W'mart). --bibendum
                 in a WALMART thread. did you have the super CALVADOS? at the H
                 otel Crillon, not W'mart).
                 \_ KGV > Crillon :-)  -John
        \_ it has been my experience the merchandise at walmart is
           not very high quality but i have weird shopping needs - danh
                    \- Is Walmart different from Target? I thought
                       target had some reasonably priced minor appliances.
                       I think I bought a peeler or an iron or something
                       like that there. Costco is sort of horrifying. --psb
           \_ it's definitely bad to have your beefcake boytoys breaking
              out of their cheap handcuffs.
        \_ I was in one near Sacramento for the first (and last) time last
           year.  It was like some twisted circle of hell; I kept expecting
           Mr. Kurtz to pop out of the bushes gasping "the horror, the
           horror".  Full of white & black trash, massively overweight people
           including women in stained stirrup pants with screaming children
           and carts full of horrible fatty starchy food.  Broken toys and
           torn cheap household articles / clothing everywhere; my girlfriend
           came up to me with this horrified look on her face after finding
           the size 38 dresses next to the family-sized tubs of candy.  Also
           the Marines recruiters and the morbidly obese people out front
           selling brand-knockoff jesus t-shirts out front and the staff
           resembling badly groomed zombies stumbling around wild-eyed sort
           of complemented the general atmosphere.  Shudder.  -John
                   \- You need to go to the Walmart in Hillsborough.
                   \- You need to go to the Walmart in Hillborough.
           \_ A couple of years ago i went into the Walmart in Cancun, and
              except that all the prices were in pesos, and the electronics
              section still sold NES games, the place looked the same as many
              of the Walmarts I've seen in the San Joaquin Valley
2005/8/31 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39375 Activity:nil
8/31    What does: "We want someone with less experience" mean?
        \_ "We want someone we can pay less."
        \_ "You're not good enough, but we're too nice to tell you that."
        \_ "The old-timers are afraid you'll get promoted over them."
        \_ "I'm the PHB"
        \_ "We want someone we can mold and shape", "we're afraid you're going
           to get bored and leave" (hiring someone costs money), "we don't want
           you questioning the boss' authority"  -John
        \_ "We don't want promiscuous women to be our wives."
        \_ Either they don't want to pay you what you should be paid or
           they don't think you are goign to be interested in the job because
           a lot of it is boring scutt work and senior engineers tend to get
           bored when all they do is scutt work.
2005/8/23-24 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39232 Activity:nil
8/23    My brother is an engineering manager at Apple (iTunes Music Store).
        His group is looking to hire a mid/sr level SW engineer. We do our
        development in WebObjects, but a solid understanding and practical
        experience with appservers in general is more important than specific
        knowledge of Java or WebObjects. Email me if you're interested or
        have questions. -abe
2005/8/16-20 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39139 Activity:nil
8/16    GUI OS on 8-bit Commodore 64!
        \_ Looks remarkably like KDE.
        \_ BSW used to hire great numbers of UCB coop students.  They were
           in the building right next to the Berkeley BART station.
           \_ BSW, later GeoWorks and then Geoworks, used to hire only co-ops
           \_ BSW, later GeoWorks and now Geoworks, used to hire only co-ops
              and only from Cal for engineers in its early days.  The first VP
              Engr started as a co-op.  It was 1995 (when the dot-com boom
              started?) when it had to resort to hiring fresh grads and hiring
              from other schools.  The company was in the penthouse of the
              Great Western Bank building next to BART.  The bank logo at its
              entrance was, incidentally, "GW".
              \_ I remember all the typefaces were named after streets in
                 Berkeley.  There was  a pc version that I ran on my first
                 laptop--a tandy 286.
                 \_ I think the latest version is available through
2005/8/15-17 [Industry/Jobs] UID:39128 Activity:kinda low
8/15    Job Market temperature check:
        \_ 103.2!  Get the market some tylenol, stat!
           \_ So natural gas is liquified, but nitrogen is still in the
              gaseous state.  Not so hot.  Or did you mean Fahrenheit?
              \_ Degree Celsius.
           \_ does that equate to several offers in a few weeks?
              \_ That equates to saying absolutely nothing
        \_ Definitely warming up, but more like a zombie crawling out
           of the grave than anything too zippy.
2005/8/8-11 [Academia/GradSchool, Academia/UCLA, Industry/Jobs] UID:39055 Activity:nil
8/8     Any students actually read motd? The Yahoo! Login and Registration
        team is looking for a fresh college grad to write perl and
        shell scripts. This position is for fresh college grads only.
        If interested, send resumes to atom at yahoo-inc dot com
        \_ I'm a starving PhD student and I am desperate for money. How
           much do they pay and are they near UCLA? And how much referal
           money do you get, and would you like to split with me? I'll take
           33% of your referal.
2005/8/8-11 [Industry/Jobs, Consumer/CellPhone, Industry/Startup] UID:39054 Activity:nil
8/9     Work with Anthony and Brian!  Again!  We have yet another position
        open, this time as a BREW developer doing pretty interesting cell
        phone applications/server side support for pretty interesting cell
        phone applications.  Startup in Emeryville with VC.  -aspo
2005/7/29-31 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:38871 Activity:nil
7/29    Anyone have any experience with (or other comments on) buying
        from There doesn't seem to be much negative about them
        posted online, and yet their prices (I'm looking at complete systems,
        no OS) are noticeably lower than what I've seen elsewhere. I'm
        naturally wondering where the catch is.
        \- boy i thought you were talking about "professional cutlery
           direct" whom i would have given a solid endorsement.
2005/7/22-25 [Computer/Companies/Google, Industry/Jobs] UID:38779 Activity:moderate
7/22    I've found Google to be a good company.  If you want a full-time job or
        internship and I happen to know you on a first-name basis, contact me via
        phone or email and I'll see what I can do to get you in.
        darin @ csua, 314-283-1234.
        \_ Can you get them to stop calling me?
        \_ Don't bother applying if you're conservative.
           \_ Let me guess.  You blew the interview due to poor social skills,
              and now you want to blame it on the liberal conspiracy to keep
              the white man down?
              \_ No, just following news reports.  Have never interviewed with
                 \_ Which news reports?
                       \_ From that you assume that they "discriminate against
                          conservative hires?"  You are really really stupid,
                          and you have likely never dealt with IT hiring.
                          \_ Is it "jump to conclusions" day?  I said don't
                             bother applying.  I didn't say they were
                             discriminating, I just got the impression that
                             they're raging lefties and you wouldn't want to be
                             around them.  And you'd have to work with aaron.
                             \_ Ooh, anonymous personal attacks.  You are a
                                bright one.
                GOOD. Kudos to Google for rejecting religious -/
                and conservative ads. We're fed up, and it's
                about time us liberals stand up to the bullying
                of religious fuck heads.
                \_ Don't compound "news reports" guy's stupidity with your own.
                \_ I think it's probably fair to say the Google workplace is
                   fairly apolitical, but I do think the founders have a
                   left-wing bias, and this does reflect in some company
                   policies I find objectionable.  Are you afraid to hang
                   out with liberals because you think they might contaminate
                   your precious bodily fluids? -- ilyas
                   \_ I'd hate to be in a work environment where the political
                      opinions of the people there affect policy at work.  I'd
                      be afraid to give a conservative opinion without
                      retribution.  ilyas, you work at Google?  That raises my
                      opinion of the company.
                      \_ No, I do not.  I interviewed at Google before I went
                         to UCLA, but did not get the job.  They recently
                         contacted me again, I guess they ran out of all the
                         good people to hire.  I think Google deserves a lot of
                         credit for enlightened things they do as a company.
                         I hope to see their good example followed.  Having
                         said that, I disagree with many of their corporate
                         decisions. -- ilyas
                         \_ Well, I'm a liberal, and gay, and whatever Google
                            does I support them because they respect and
                            embrace diversity. I wish the Religious
                            dictators would just fuck off. GO GOOGLE. And
                            fuck you ilyas.
                            \_ You on the other hand don't seem to.
                            \_ Want to work at PlanetOut? Email me. -ausman
                               \_ He's a troll.  Nobody is this dumb. -- ilyas
2005/7/3-5 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38402 Activity:low
7/3     NYTimes claims profits but not jobs are up in the Valley:
        Does this jibe with anyone else's experience?  Seems like the job
        market is plenty hot for engineers with clue.
        \_ And lots of good engineers are medium level engineers.  The world
           needs them too.  Who else is going to do the scut work?
           \_ I find it hard to believe that a woman with 5 years of project
              management experience for KPMG couldn't find work. She's kinda
              \_ "... went to work in 1997 as a project manager and a Web
                 designer for technology companies ... [and] quitting the
                 consulting firm KPMG in 2002..."  It's unclear from this
                 description if she actually has any useful skills, especially
                 given the frothy bubble job market.
              cute, too. Still, the job market looks bleak overall and not
              just for s/w engineers. It's bad in a lot of disciplines,
              including aerospace and chemical. Civil engineering seems
              strong, but that's an exception. The US economy is bleeding
              highly paid/highly skilled jobs as far as I can see. It's
              not just outsourcing, but that companies are slashing R&D as
              a form of belt-tightening that makes sense in the short-term
              and is suicidal in the long-term.
              \_ That is actually a bad picture of her, she is super hot.
                 \_ *ahem*.  "Super hot".  -John
                 She used to work as a project manager at PlanetOut but
                 we restructured and laid off all the project managers.
2005/6/28-30 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38340 Activity:nil
        Download and be amazed.
        \_ FYI to other potential downloaders:
           It streams data from to aquire higher-resolution maps
           depending on which locations you view and caches the data.
           Yes, this means application speed depends on bandwidth.
        \_ Taken down (temporarily) due to technical difficulties (6/29)
2005/6/23-25 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38274 Activity:low
6/23    BART employees want a 17% raise.  What's the current inflation rate?
        \_ Hey, I want a 17% raise too.  Why don't you shove your inflation
           rate up your ass?
           \_ I second this inquiry.
        \_ BART salaries have been frozen for 4 years
           \_ You mean there was no one-time raise at the beginning of this
              4-yr period?
           \_ The expiring BART contract has 4-year raises totaling 22%.
              Union officials claim the proposal for the next contract calls
              for a wage freeze of 4 years and a 13% cut of benefits.
        \_ I just got a 14% raise this month. That was after a 4% raise
           last September.
              \_ 22% for the past 4 years?  I only got 7% over the past 4 years
                 with little job security and I'm already among the lucky ones
                 in the industry.  These BART employees got 3+ times the raise.
                 Now they want 17% for 3 years?  That's even higher.
              \_ A different perspective:
        \_ I just got a 14% raise, on top of a 4% raise last October.
           Why is this being deleted? Jealous or something?
2005/6/22 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38250 Activity:nil
6/22    Celequest ( has an immediate opening for an intern.
        Anyone looking for an internship can email your resume sweiss@celequest.
        Looking for someone experienced in Java, XML, Databases, J2EE, SQL, or
        a good combination of the above. I know this doesn't belong on the motd,
        but we want to fill this position quickly.  -steve
        \_ Only political flame wars belong on the motd!
        \_ Is it
2005/6/20-22 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38204 Activity:low
6/20    While I was talking to my manager about promotion, he told me about
        "technical track" and "management track".  Basically what he says is
        that if I don't (can't?) become a manager, I can still be promoted
        along the technical track, where positions at different levels are
        equivalent to those at respective levels on the management track.  The
        only difference is that I don't manage people.  Is my manager BS'ing
        me?  Is this "technical track" thing common in other companies?  Are
        engineers on the technical track really as highly regarded as managers
        at the same levels on the management track?  Thanks.
           Side note:
           Unfortunately, many level 14 or 15 people are there because they
           founded the company, not because they are super-studs.  A company
           can survive just by having really good level 11-13 people who can
           ensure there are good level 8-10 people coming in, direct them
           efficiently, and retain them.
           founded the company, not because they are super-studs (not that
           there's anything wrong with that).
           A company can survive just by having really good level 11-13 people
           who can ensure there are good level 8-10 people coming in, direct
           them efficiently, and retain them; or just on the backs of the level
           11-13 people themselves.
           \_ It's common for companies to claim they have a separate mgmt and
              technical track.  It's also common for the technical track to
              be not well defined.  Large companies tend to be better at
              actually having a well defined technical track.  -oj
              \_ That, and I've seen the rewards (bonuses, salary) start
                 diverging pretty wildly between the two once the "technical
                 track" people start becoming more experienced.  This may be
                 because I've dealt mainly with bank types with a very short-
                 term outlook who think they can get more value for the money
                 by hiring 2 monkeys each paid $x instead of 1 guru paid $3x,
                 has anyone else seen this?  -John
           \_ Sounds like
        \_ Veritas has senior engineering positions like Distinguised Engineer.
           charmer is a DE at Veritas and has a Director's office. I hear
           that Sun has a similar program.
        \_ This is true at JPL, and probably other places with lots of
           PhDs. It's a way to reward good science and engineering w/o
           making people managers who don't want to be and/or who are not
           good at it. Positions like "Chief Technologist" and "Research
           Fellow" are very prestigious technical positions that also pay
           similar to their management equivalents. However, the reality
           is that technical track positions are far, far more competitive
           to obtain and managers who are semi-dufuses can make the same as
           some really good technical people. If you love your job, are
           good at it, and hating managing people, go for technical track.
           Otherwise, go for the management track. In the end, I think
           management is more versatile as a career and is involved more in
           decision-making. Technical people can become 'gurus' but still
           ultimately answer to someone in management.
2005/6/18-20 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38184 Activity:nil
6/19    Does Abercrombie and Fitch hire colored people now? Or are they still
        hiring whites only?
        \_ They have always hired colored folks, the problem was they weren't
           in the front part of the store.
2005/6/16 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38148 Activity:low
6/15    Felis Cattus, is your taxonomic nomenclature,
        an endothermic quadruped carnivorous by nature?
        Your visual, olfactory and auditory senses
        contribute to your hunting skills, and natural defenses.

        I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations,
        a singular development of cat communications
        that obviates your basic hedonistic predilection
        for a rhythmic stroking of your fur, to demonstrate affection.

        A tail is quite essential for your acrobatic talents;
        you would not be so agile if you lacked its counterbalance.
        And when not being utilized to aide in locomotion,
        it often serves to illustrate the state of your emotion.

        O Spot, the complex levels of behaviour you display
        connote a fairly well-developed cognitive array.
        And though you are not sentient, Spot, and do not comprehend,
        I nonetheless consider you a true and valued friend.
        \_ I had a cat, his name was Fred
           used to sleep on my bed
           fought a truck, now he's dead
           but wait, check it out, I kept his head.  -John
           \_ Hubba-hubba hubba-hubba hubba.
2005/6/10-12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38075 Activity:low
6/10    Job opening at the White House, Media division. Job description:
        "The White House is seeking a dynamic marketing candidate to manage
        our Media and Relationship division. Consider this excellent
        opportunity to grow with our team. Responsibilities include
        providing leadership and vision to our team success, recruit and
        train media personnel, execute an effective sales and marketing
        strategy, and to market ideas that retroactively justify our war
        on Iraq. We offer a competitive compensation package, health,
        dental, 401K, ESPP, as well as an atmosphere conducive to
        achieving excellence. Submit resumes to:"
        \_ Is there a link to this?
        \_ Nice try.  White House doesn't issue stocks, hence no ESPP.  Unless
           you're talking about which may issue stocks, but then
           you're not according to the e-mail address.  401(k) is not for govt.
           \_ Probably not the case @ the White House, but how's this work
              with govt. contractors?  -John
           \_ Haven't you heard?  The gov't's been for sale now for a long
2005/6/9-13 [Industry/Jobs] UID:38062 Activity:low
6/9     "unemployment rate edged down to 5.1 percent, its lowest since
        September 2001"
        Is the job market really that good?
        \_ Walmart will employ two for the price of one, and they're really
           expanding! Thank God for Walmart, and God Bless.
        \_ For engineers yes.  It's hard to tell for other professional
           positions, but anecdotal evidence from friends suggests it's
           hard for them.  The other thing is that the unemployment rate
           measures only those who are on unemployment insurance, which isn't
           a particularly good measure.  The better measure is the number of
           new jobs created in a month, and how it compares with working
           population growth.
           \_ No, the unemployment rates include people who are registered
              as looking for work, whether they are drawing unemployment
              insurance or not.
              insurance or not. They do some kind of survey.
              \_ Mmm...ass talking.
                 \_ Look, I was nice to your completely uninformed dumbass
                    comment before, but I won't now. You are 100% full of
                    comment before, but I won't be now. You are 100% full of
                    shit and you are a fool for pretending like you know
                    what you are talking about when you obviously have no
                    fucking clue:
                    "Some people think that to get these figures on
                     unemployment the Government uses the number of persons
                     filing claims for unemployment insurance (UI) benefits
                     under State or Federal Government programs. But some
                     people are still jobless when their benefits run out,
                     and many more are not eligible at all or delay or never
                     apply for benefits. So, quite clearly, UI information
                     cannot be used as a source for complete information
                     on the number of unemployed."
                    You can apologize for being an ignorant fucktard anytime.
                    \_ I apologize.
                       \_ Oh sheesh, aren't you going to make a yermom
                          joke or anything?
        \_ Lots of low paying jobs out there.
        \_ accounting / finance jobs are plentiful these days.  all the hot
           money head girls I know are finding / switching jobs.
           \_ They are hot and give head for money. Sounds like a career
              \_ Only in your geek fantasies. Is that *really* how you read
                 that sentence?
                 \_ perhaps you meant money-head (or some variation of it)?
                 \_ perhaps you meant money-head (or some variation thereof)?
2005/5/24-26 [Computer/SW/Security, Industry/Jobs] UID:37825 Activity:moderate
5/24    How common are contract-based bonuses for service-oriented software
        companies as a form of profit-sharing?
        E.g., the company wins a 1 million dollar contract.
        The sales guy for the contract gets x% of $1 million;
        The lead engineer on the project gets y%;
        Other engineers who will be working on the project get z%.
        Yes, the sales guy has a base salary and makes much more from
        commissions, which is how this normally works.
        Currently our bonus system is the standard annual bonus (the boss
        decides at the end of the year how much bonus you get, which ends
        up being ~ 5%).
        \_ Why is this a question? You can structure payment for services
           any way you want as long as it is not unconscionable.
           \_ "how common are ... for ...", not "is it possible"
           \_ "how common are ... for ..."
              \_ Very good, you apparently understand basic semantics.
                 I still don't understand why this is a question. If you
                 want your firm to move towards a direct percentage based
                 system based on profits vs. a fixed annual bonus then
                 bring it up with your super. Why should it matter if it
                 is followed by a majority of other consulting firms?
        \_ I've never seen a commission system for anyone other than sales.
           For IT/Engineering, if there is a bonus system is usually "up to
           x% of salary per quarter".  One place I worked at did profit
           sharing at .1% of profits for most, while some with seniority
           got more.
        \_ <yeah, like your retarded nonsensical comment, dipshit>
        \_ OP: you should deal with retarded but critical sounding comments
           by deleting them. --!OP
                \_ I am going to guess "not common"
           \_ Haha.  Are you the poster whose comment I deleted?
              Did you experience a flush of anger when you saw I
              deleted your pathetic comment?
           \_ <stop deleting someone else's shit and we'll stop deleting
               your shit>
               \_ Deleting a "followup" which consists of "that's a dumb
                  question" is a service not an abuse.
               \_ <right, which is why this is a service>
           \_ Little losers: you guys really couldn't tell the difference
              between your lame answers and the one above?
        \_ I've had that kind of deal offered to me to finish a project at
           a company that 1. had no prospect of a liquidity event, and 2. had
           a co-development deal with another company that would bring in cash
           with each milestone met.  A more common version of this happens
           when a company gets acquired for $(n+m+o+...), with $(m+o+...)
           tied to project milestones.
2005/5/20 [Recreation/Sports, Recreation/Computer/Games, Industry/Jobs] UID:37784 Activity:high
5/20    For the person who was asking how to best answer the question,
        "What's your weekness?" during the interview.  IMHO, the best
        way to answer that is to talk about how you'd like to be more
        proficient in an area that you are _not_ interviewing for.
        For example, if you are interviewing for a backend position,
        then talk about how you are not as strong in front end design
        but would love to get more exposure to it.  Or for non-managedment
        engineering positions in general, it is also okay to say you are
        not comfortable enough speak in front of hundredes or thousdands
        of people but you would like to take some public speech classes
        if the company can sponsor it (it is important to quatify the
        number of audience; you want to point out you are totally comfortable
        doing a technical presentation/review for your peers).
        This answer usually leads to discussion about company's education
        benefits, which is what you want to find out anyway.
        \_ The best answer is "I don't have any weaknesses"
         \_ I'd rather someone blew off the question than respond this way
         \_ No, that's the worst answer.a
            \_ I dunno -- the last thread about this had some pretty messed
            \_ It's not the worst answer if it is true. If you're good at
               your job and you have good people skills to boot plus tons
               of experience in the relevant positions then why would you
               have any weaknesses? I mean, seriously, what the hell are you
               supposed to say? I don't have a good backhand in tennis?
               I don't play golf? I mean, seriously, wtf ARE you supposed to
               say if you have 10+ years of experience in the field, worked
               on various projects as follower or leader, have had a pretty
               good track record on those projects, given lectures on the
               field, published papers, etc. etc.. If you are the best
               candidate for the job, why SHOULD you have any weaknesses?
               \_ If you think you're perfect, that's a weekness.
                  \_ Perhaps if you think you are NOT perfect for the job,
                     now that's a weakness. If you don't think you're perfect
                     for the job, then why are you applying? Also, who said
                     anything about thinking that you yourself are perfect?
                     Not having a weakness != perfection.
                     \_ Okay, I'll emend that.  If you don't think you have
                        weaknesses, you're lying to yourself and others.
                        \_ So in other words, you don't believe that people
                           can be good at what they do. That's an interesting
                           \_ No.  I believe that people who are never
                              introspective are dangerous.  I believe that
                              people who don't find they have things to
                              better in themselves are stunted and boring.
                              \_ Being introspective is one thing, being
                                 weak at something is another. Don't mix
                                 the two. You're confusing self assessment
                                 with being weak. Self assessment leads to
                                 improvement, even in things you are strong
                                 at. It's akin to saying that Tiger Woods
                                 has a "weak" short game. His weak short
                                 game still blows 99% of the population
                                 out of the water. He can improve on it,
                                 (heck, he can improve on all aspects of
                                 his game), but I wouldn't call it a
                                 weakness, especially if you're applying
                                 for a job. Seriously, this is one of those
                                 dumb corporate interview questions that
                                 should be banned. It's a dumb question and
                                 leads to no real answers.
                                 \_ Sounds like you're reading too much into
                                    the question.  This is exactly what they're
                                    asking about.  Things you'd like to be
                                    better at.  Maybe it's bad terminology,
                                    but you're being really obtuse.
                                 \_ If you asked Tiger Woods his biggest
                                    weakness and he said "My short game"
                                    it would make plenty of sense. How his
                                    short game compares to mine is not the
        \_ my biggest weakness is not being able to find more time to <stick
           in something irrelevant to work>. For example, I'm unable to find
           more time to read fine American literatures, take French/cooking,
           class, and do things that'll make me a better rounded person.
           Heck they don't give a shit how well-rounded you are, so why not.
        \_ The purpose of this question is to bait you into revealing a real
        show stopper flaw, or see if you dodge the question or throw up a smoke
        screen answer.  As long as you answer it honestly and don't throw out
        a juicy flaw like stealing other people's lunchs from the company
        refrigerator, you are probably fine.  -ax
           \_isn't hacking code and eating Doritos making you more well-rounded
                \_ Only in the chiapet sense.
2005/5/16-17 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37709 Activity:high
5/16    When an interviewer asks about your weakness, what do you usually
        \_ "i'm outta of a job and i have to come to you to get one"
        \_ "i'm too weak to answere questions about myself"
        \_ I cry when I masturbate.
        \_ Well, I could always use more upper body strength to impress
           the girls.
        \_ "I've been told that I work too hard, but I've never considered
           it a weakness."
           \_ Do not try this. Any non-moron interviewer would pick up on
              this sort of thing. I guess since he asked this question, we
              may deduce he IS a moron though. But anyway I divebombed an
              interview when some high-end VP asked this and relentlessly
              discarded my non-incriminating answers. The "correct" answer
              is really to have a pre-memorized set "things you're doing
              to improve yourself", under the assumption that anything
              where you're not your best is a weakness. Yeah it's stupid.
              I guess you could turn the "work too hard" thing into a real
              weakness if you say like you sometimes get fixed on a problem
              and if you don't get enough sleep you aren't as bright as
              you can be blah blah.
           \_ I agree that you should NOT give a canned response, especially
              the one above.  IT'S TOO FUCKING OLD.  It's like walking into
              a single's bar and asking "What's your sign?".  Be thoughtful.
        \_ "That's a stupid question.  I'll go somewhere else where the
           interviewers aren't morons."
           \_ Translation:  "My weakness is I kneejerk sometimes at the risk
              of pissing off other people."
              \_ No, I'd just rather not work for a company who wastes my time
                 like that.
                 \_ You might want to consider the fact that there's more to
                    being a true professional than your (very high) opinion of
           \_ Alternate Translation: "I'm a very, very poor candidate."
        \_ I just answered honestly.  Just list some real weakness you
           \_ Yeah, I tried that once. Apparently, they weren't interested
              in people who don't like to be micromanaged.
              \_ Sounds like you came out on top of that one.
        \_ I get distracted too easily by eye candies.
           \- Just say "I wish I could be more organized."
        \_ I'm a lazy fuck.
        \_ I tell them that sometimes I am too optimistic about how
           much work I can get done and that therefore I take on too
           many tasks and that sometimes this causes frustration in
           other people who are waiting around for me to get things
           done. It is a real weakness of mine (and just about every
           other engineer and sysadmin I have ever worked with) and
           just indicates a normal kind of failing that you can cop to.
           I don't tell them that I drink too much and call in work
           sick all the time on Monday because of it or anything like
           \_ This is a smart man. (or woman)
           \_ Yeah, good call.  During my interview for my current job,
              I was asked this and answered a couple of things off the
              top of my head -- one was "I have a hard time saying no
              (to client requests, management requests)" -- it's a
              genuine problem, and one that I work on.  This led into
              a brief discussion of dealing with those sorts of
              dynamics, and probably did give them a better idea of
              how I think & work.  Which is the point.
              \_ Well I'd still laugh at you both. It's still an obvious
                 cop-out basically, just a clever variation of "I work
                 too much/am too eager to work". It shows you're good
                 at lawyerly bullshitting. Good job.
                 \_ This is a foolish man. (or woman)
                 \_ No, I honestly don't think it is 100% bullshit. Super
                    awesome programmers accurately predict how much they
                    can get done in a certain amount of time and when they
                    screw up, they bust their ass to get back on track.
                    I am not that conscientious. Yes, it is BS, in the sense
                    I am not that hard working. Yes, it is BS, in the sense
                    that I believe I have worse failings as a human being,
                    but none that I think appropriate for a job interview.
                    If I was really pressed, I could come up with some others
                    like "sometimes I can be too terse for people" but I
                    rationalize that as me just not liking to be interrupted
                    when I am deep in thought.
        \_ My last boss has a restraining order on me, but I learned
           from that experience.
           \_ That rocks.
        \_ I have a hard time with the line between sexual harrassment and
           harmless flirtatiousness, but I've been taking sensitivity classes
           and higher doses of medication, so it's less blurry to me now.
        \_ I ask this question. Not looking for an answer but how they
           react. That tells me a lot more about a person, esp. for a
           high-profile position.
           \_ Just out of curiosity, what does it tell you about a person
              when they walk out of the interview telling you it's a stupid
              question, and that you're a moron for asking it?
           \_ So what are you hoping to see from them? What kind of
              responses to this cliche question impress you?
           \_ Two pp's above should watch "The Assassination of Richard Nixon"
              \_ Why?
        \_ "I can't stop my bosses' wives crawling onto my bed."
2005/5/10-12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37614 Activity:nil
5/10    Our group is hiring, please see /csua/pub/jobs/efi for more
        information. We are looking for fresh/recent grads with 0-3
        years of experience. -chiry
        \_ What salary range are we talking about?
           \_ I don't know the specific range, since I am also
              relatively new here, but I think we are pretty
              competitive. Send me your resume and questions if you
              are interested, I'll forward it to the hiring manager.
        \_ You're setting the motd on fiery!
           \_ Hahahaha, is that you yuen? ;) -chiry
2005/5/2-6 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:37457 Activity:nil 66%like:36830
5/2     Senior Web Applications Engineer posting updated:
2005/5/2-6 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37444 Activity:nil
05/01   Summer intern, recent grad, senior developer positions available
        at Zone Labs.  For an idea of the type of work see:
        though for intern, recent grad positions (not reflected in above
        job listings) C++ and/or Java experience and interest in security
        may be suffcient.
2005/5/1 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37440 Activity:nil
05/01   Summer intern, recent grad, senior developer positions available
        at Zone Labs.  email sky for details.  --sky
2005/4/21-26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Industry/Jobs] UID:37308 Activity:nil
4/21    3 Job openings at Vidiator in Mountain View
        Email me if you have any questions. -dgies
        \_ Or just post them here... -dgies
        \_ Ha, with my old glasses at a distance, I thought I read
           "3 Job openings at Vibrator in Mountain View"
           \_ "3 openings with Vibrators in Mountain View"
2005/4/19-21 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37267 Activity:nil
4/19    Several job openings for SysAdmins/DBAs/Developers at various levels
        Email me for details or just send your resume -ccook
         \_I'd rather not post the name here due to uptight HR people. Jobs
           are near SFO though if that's what you meant
          \_ Use your SysAdmin-foo to make an educated guess. -!ccook
                               \_ fu
          \_ Use your SysAdmin-fu to make an educated guess. -!ccook
2005/4/13-14 [Industry/Jobs] UID:37163 Activity:low
4/12    our company decided to hire a manager for my group (programmers) and
        move my current boss to another group instead. so tomorrow i'm
        supposed to interview someone who could be my future boss. any advice?
        \_ Aside from just managing programmers, a good manager will help run
           interferance with managment, either to help get more resources
           when they're needed, politely tell managment what is/is not possible
           and give managment and programmers realistic deadlines. One group at
           my work is hemmoraging programmers because upper managment keeps
           telling them different things are the #1 priority and the constant
           task switching and false urgency is causing burnout.  My manager is
           good at saying "we need to finish X first, then we can go do Y."
        \_ respect, attitude, smarts.  You don't want a manager that won't
           respect his/her team: eg. one interested in CYA or politics or
           self-aggrandizement.  You want one who realizes that his/her team
           is his/her strength, something to rely on, to respect, treat will,
           and even to promote.  ie. someone who understands your success is
           his/her success.  Rather than someone who tries to co-opt your
           success.  Also, how well you get along with your boss is very
           important: people skills, friendliness, personality, etc.  And
           someone who's intelligent enough (and technical enough) for you
           to work with and communicate clearly with.  Oh, and the above
           poster is also correct in saying you want a manager that will
           fight for/protect/defend your team.
        \_ Exactly the same thing happened to me a few years ago.  I hestitated
           to interview the candidate because I knew nothing about management,
           but the VP told me to just go and grill him for his technical
           skills.  He did okay, we ended up hiring him, and he ended up being
           my boss.  It worked out fine.  -- yuen
        \_ I'm in about the same boat right now.  Yes grill them on tech
           stuff IF THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO TECH STUFF.  Lots of managers
           tech skills aren't that important.  Much more important is for
           them to be able to manage.  Management is a support role, and
           in this case they should be supporting their team.  Ask the
           candidate what he will do to support the team, to sell himself
           as a net gain for you and your coworkers.
2005/4/6-8 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Industry/Jobs] UID:37091 Activity:nil
4/5     Does anyone know of open tech writing positions?  I have a friend that
        is pretty good, and he was just let go by a failing company. --jwm
        \_ Poor guy.  You're a victim of the Great Terri Schiavo script war.
           \_ You assume it's a script war.
              \_ True, very true.
           \_ Well, I don't let it bother me.
              \_ Good man.
           \_ Thank you. --jwm
2005/3/28-29 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36933 Activity:high
3/28    how do i become a product engineer/product manager?
        what classes?  what degree?  what should i be reading?
        \_ strive to become a solid programmer/engineer, while at the same
           time developing your interpersonal skills (something most engineers
           lack). if you really want, take a business course or two, but that's
           not necessary.
        \_ For the second, develop a high tolerance for meetings.
           \_ ooh boy, i second this.
           \_ Is that worse than "project managers"? They seem to do little
              other than sit in all status meetings and make reports to
              higher-up management (in other meetings).
              \_ Depending on the company, you may have "product managers",
                 "program managers", or "project managers". These all mean
                 different things to different people, but generally have
                 something to do with being a liason between engineering and
                 sales/marketing. The definitions of any of these titles
                 vary widely from organization to organization. -gm
                 \_ Seconded.  I should add that a good {product/project/
                    program} manager is worth his weight in gold (take heat
                    off developers, know how to BS management, keep all the
                    project status admin crap done, understand the paper
                    jungle, be a good politician) while a bad one can be the
                    worst obstruction EVAR!!!11 (micromanagement, impossible
                    deadlines, etc.)  Also, no, they are not the first to get
                    the boot if they're good at both their job and networking
                    (never ever ever underestimate that part.)  -John
                    \_ Hm. I was under the impression that "product" managers
                       actually have input into the specifications/design.
                       The project managers at my corp appear to have no input
                       although their role seems to pick up at the end of the
                       product cycle... getting the product to market. Lots of
                       work there sometimes. But as an engineering peon my only
                       interaction was to fill them in on status items. Seems
                       like a hellish job to me but maybe it's better at other
                       \_ No, what you want is a product boss in Sun lingo.
                          Product bosses can kick ass and take names, and it's
                          a pretty damn cool job.  You also have to be a pretty
                          senior manager to become the product boss.
        \_ For the few jobs that I went through, the project/product/program
           managers are not engineers and don't know CS.  Yet they did fine.
        \_ Why in gods name would you want to become a product mgr?
           Those guys are the first one to get the boot when times
           get tough.  Much better to try and become an eng. mgr.
           An MBA helps for this (some schools have a eng mgmt
           program), but most of the mgrs I know are former eng.
           who just got tired of being a peon.
        \_ I have definitely had my share of worthless product managers, but
           the one good one I worked with made a world of difference. Actual
           knowledge of the engineering and business world is a huge plus.
           With my CS background, that's what I'm striving to become when I
           go to b-school this fall.
2005/3/28-29 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36931 Activity:high
3/28    Why do we say "five-digit ZIP code" and "ten-digit phone numbers", but
        we say "six-figure salary" not "six-digit salary"?
           \-because a salary is a number not a string of digits.
             phone number and zip codes dont have a "cadinality".
             Why are manhole covers round? Why do mirrors reverse
             left/right but not up/down? --psb
             \_ Manhole covers are round because round covers can't fall in.
                \- circle not only shape where that is true. also round =
                   easier to move/roll.
                   \_ yes, it's easier to roll, but what other shape would it
                      be true?
             \_ Or maybe it's just because salaries are old, but zip codes
                and phone numbers are new.  People say "three-digit IQ",
                even though IQ is a number with a magnitude.  --mconst
                     \- fair point. where do you figures outside of money?
                        i think it may have more to do with money than
                        old/new. --psb
                        \_ In the past, "figure" was certainly not restricted
                           to money; we still say things like "figure 8".
                           Nowadays, I can't think of anywhere I'd use it
                           except set phrases and some money-related stuff.
                           (Not even all money stuff; I'd say "12-digit GDP",
                           but that might just be me.  It's definitely "double-
                           digit GDP growth", although that's arguably not
                           referring directly to money.)  --mconst
                                     \- figure 8 is a differnt use it
                                        is referring to the shape of the
                                        digit/symbol. when speaking of
                                        precision/accuracy, i suppose
                                        people should use digits rather
                                        than significant figures.
                                        i suppose figures is also used
                                        fo non-money things like
                                        casualty figures. maybe it is more
                                        somthing open to "accounting"
                                        than narrowly money. check your facts
                                        and figures. --psb
                           \_ I always thought it was because salary is
                              something most poeple don't know the exact value
                              of.  You say double digit growth because
                              you could go get the numbers and they would
                              be exact values.  Salary is something you on
                              get in approximates because it isn't supposed
                              to be public knowledge is polite company.
                              So a 6 figure salary is a rough approximation,
                              not an standin for an exact value you can give
                              if pressed.
                              \_ Hmm.  Wouldn't the same thing apply to IQs,
                                 then?  When you say someone has a double-
                                 digit IQ, you're not claiming to know their
                                 IQ exactly.  --mconst
                \_ temperatures are old, but they can be triple-digit
                   \_ Good point.  The terms "double-digit" and "triple-digit"
                      seem to be used pretty widely in general; any idea how
                      old they are?  I can't find any citations in the OED
                      before 1959.  --mconst
                      \_ Check for 'treble-digit' as well.  Those wacky brits.
                         \_ For what it's worth, they actually list this as
                            originally U.S. usage.  --mconst
                            \_ Like "aluminum"?  :-)  -John
             \_ psb: how many figures of pi do you know?
                \- i figure pi figures bigger than e. when we think of
                   pi as a string, we use digits. when we think of it as
                   a number, it has a value. --psb
                \_ I know 17, which is four less than what's in
                   /usr/include/math.h.  --- !psb
                   \- looks like i know 18 ... in base 10. --psb
             \- This is a case where the different usage makes sense.
                In some cases I agree there are arbitrary or interchangeable
                uses eventhough in the dictionary, there may be some technical
                difference. On the flip side, there are work words seen as
                exact substitutesm possibly with one preferred and the other
                considered odd or archaic or verbose, but in some contexts
                the are not interchangable and the normally disfavoroed word
                should be prefered. e.g. use vs usage. You may be interested
        \_ Because "digits" apply no value to the item or the number involved
           while "figures" implies a relative, comparable standing. The phrase
           "six figure salary" can be given a comparative value (high, low,
           mid) and can be compared a salary involving a different number of
           figures. It also means all of the numbers should be taken as a
           whole. The phrase "five-digit ZIP Code" implies no particular
           value for a higher or lower number. Each digit gives no implicit
           meaning or value to the final number as a whole.
           \_ Addendum: Someone noted to me that "digits" is also exclusively
              used in cases where the positive integer is < 1000, no matter
              if the item in question is comparative. Interesting.
2005/3/24-28 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36848 Activity:nil
3/24    My group (Yahoo! Small Business - Store) has openings for engineers
        with  1+ year experience and also for senior engineers with 6+ years
        of experience (BS or higher).  Please let me know if you know of any
        engineers looking for (change of) jobs.  Also, how do I get these
        openings posted at the career center?  -conlam
        \_ What's the salary at Yahoo like for engineer with 5-6 years of
           \_ pay is approx "industry average" -atom
2005/3/23-24 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:36830 Activity:nil 66%like:37457
3/23    We need a(nother) "Senior Web Applications Engineer" here at AvantGo.
        Job descr and contact info in /csua/pub/jobs/AvantGo  --dbushong
2005/3/18-21 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36755 Activity:nil 57%like:36020
3/18    Job opening in Mountain View for J2ME Mobile applications engineer.
        See: /csua/pub/jobs/vidiator
2005/3/8-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36583 Activity:moderate
3/8     How accurate do people find the figures from to be?
        I'm deciding on a job offer, and was hoping someone can help me
        evaluate.  Thnx.  Oh.  Job is software engineering, of course.
        \_ I find them accurate.
        \_ I don't find them accurate, but it's hard to say.  I was being
           paid $10k less than what said, and when I brought it
           up to management they said my company does extensive market
           research to make sure we are paid at Market or better, based on
           individual skill set, experience, blah, blah.
           \_ Man, that's a shitty way to find out that you're being screwed
              by your employer.
           \_ Did you expect them to apologize for underpaying you?
              \_ No, I expected them to adjust my pay to a fair amount.
                 \_ Didn't work, did it?  Next time ask for something more
                    achievable, like world peace or blow jobs from the
           \_ 10% less than the median or 10% less than the 25th percentile?
              I have pretty much always been paid around the 75th percentile
              according to their job descriptions. You have to get the
              title that goes with your number of years of experience though.
              I have pretty much always been paid between the 50th and 75th
              percentile according to their job descriptions. You have to get
              the title that goes with your number of years of experience
              though, which isn't always your title at work.
              \_ In this case it was $10k less than the median, and I
                 used the correct number of years in the calc.
                 \_ Unless you are a substandard performer (and you should
                    know that from performance reviews, etc) you are being
                    underpaid then. If you have asked them for a raise and
                    shown them the comps, then you have no recourse but
                    to start looking for another job. It is probably a
                    good idea to interview every other year or so in any
                    case, to keep yourself fresh
           \_ That's exactly what my manager told me when I asked four years
              ago.  Then my company went bankrupt, and two months later I got
              an offer which was 20% over my old salary (I told them my old
              salary).  If I had really been paid at market, I don't think
              anyone would offer me a 20% increase knowing that I was already
              jobless for two months.
        \_ It depends on the company.  My old job I was < 25th percentile;
           my new one (pretty much same job description) I'm 75th.
2005/3/2-3 [Finance/CC, Industry/Jobs] UID:36487 Activity:nil
3/2     I signed up for a credit card with a retail chain. There is an
        arbitration provision in the agreement and I can reject that provision
        alone by writing them a rejection. I am not planning to sue them
        unless they tries to screw me. Supposedly accepting arbitration makes
        me vulnerable, but would they mark me as a bad customer if I reject it?
        \_ If I were them I'd just reject your application.
           It's not like they're hiring you as a software engineer and
           you're disputing the anti-compete clauses.
           \_ Well, it was an online application and I already got the card.
              \_ Do they really allow you to reject a clause just by writing
                 them?  The usual practice is, if you don't like the terms,
                 then don't sign up (or renew) - take it or leave it.
                 Do they have to accept your rejection?
2005/2/15-17 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36180 Activity:moderate
2/15    In Good Company movie review-- it's pretty funny, and not
        too overly outrageous like Meet the Fockers. It reminded me
        of the Dot-Com era when I was in my late 20s and I worked
        for this 23 year old manager who was very energetic but
        lacked everything that made a manager good. It's a funny,
        feel good type of movie. I give it 2 thumbs and 1 toe up.
        I'm reserving the other toe because it they should've showed
        more Dot-Com shit in it.
        \_ has anyone seen the new thai kickboxing movie pushed
           by the wu-tang clan?
        \_ wouldn't it be funny if Carly got fired when she did because
           HP board members saw the movie
           \_ Carly is not in her mid 20s like the movie (and like the
              dot com days) and the people working under her are
              actually around her age. Other stuff are similar though, like
              the corporate merger, the firing, the confusion, etc. I hated
              the chaos that came during the dot com days, but In Good
              Company made it very comical. Kudos to the directors.
              \_ Carly ~= Teddy K., not the young d00d.  Duh!
                 \_ Teddy K = almighty god who sold the company for profit.
                    Carly = stupid biach who got fired.
                    I failed to see any correlation.
                    \_ To spoon feed it to you:  Perhaps, the HP board saw
                       Teddy K's ostentatiousness and cult of personality in
           \_ Carly got fired because she's a fucking idiot.
              \_ true, but have you seen the movie?
                 \_ No, and I should refrain. Carly is probably not an
                    idiot. CEO of a computer company like HP was not a
                    good match for her, though. Ironically, she probably
                    would've made a good CEO for Compaq.
2005/2/9-10 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36123 Activity:kinda low
2/9     We're thinking of hiring a part-time intern who will be doing some
        part time windows sysadmin work for us - he's looking to get
        some resume experience, and we'd like to see how he works out
        before hiring him full time. Any tips on what would be a
        reasonable/fair hourly wage to pay him?
        \_ I'd pay him between $12 and $20/hour as an intern, depending on
           how competent he seems to be.
        \_ Does he have any experience? A degree? Are you guys a cheap
           outfit or lavish with salaries (in general)? How good will it
           look on his resume? ILM looks good. less so.
           \_ startup environment, currently fairly cheap.  Not really
              good or bad resume-wise, just basic experience... Thanks! -op
              \_ How much experience does he have? Degree?
                 \_ degree in different field (B.S. biology), but some
                    experience as a sysadmin at home and previous job
                    (more for clients than for servers)
                    \_ If he went to a good university then you should pay
                       him the high end of the other guy's suggestion.
                       Maybe $20/hour. Is it full-time? Benefits?
                        \_ Only part-time for now, no benefits.  Thanks
                           for the input, we'll probably go with $20.
2005/2/8-9 [Industry/Jobs] UID:36105 Activity:high
2/8     I have a salary negotiation for a new job coming up.  If the median
        for that kind of work is $X/yr, what should I ask for an opening
        request?  Too high and I'll scare them off, too low and I'm selling
        myself short.
        \_ Ask for what you are worth and what you would be happy with.
           If in doubt, ask for more rather than less. You won't scare
           them off if they are a good place to work. They will just say:
           "Sorry, but this is our final offer: $xxx". Better to be
           overpaid than underpaid.
           \_ I think I'm worth $X.  Except for envy, I'd probably be happy
              with only 0.75X.  If I ask for 1.15X, would that be bad?
              \_ No.
              \_ It would not be bad, but don't be surprised if you don't
                 get it. Salary negotiation is its own area of expertise
                 and you should at least read up on it, if you want to get
                 paid anything near what you are worth.
                 \_ "A good trade is when you're happy and the other guy's
                    happy, regardless of what you paid for what."  -John
                    \_ yeah, gay sex is when both sides are happy
                     \_ Cause after straight sex the woman just lies there
                        crying and feeling like a dirty filthy whore?
        \_ Update: Her: What are you expecting
           Me: Market rate
           Her: There a range we have budgeted... <beating around the bush>
           Me: I think 1.15X sounds reasonable
           Her: <silence> ... That's within our range.
           \_ did you enjoy watching her beat around her bush?
           \_ may I ask what you do and what your experience is? I'm asking
              because if you're a code monkey, the salary range is actually
              pretty big
           \- re: the "envy" comment ... while i wouldn't characterize it as
              envy, but more of a fairness/do i look like a bitch factor,
              it does offend me when people with much lower productivity
              are paid better. the productivity difference in the computer
              world can easily be a couple of factors and not 10s of percent.
              of course the company can try to make it up in other ways
              [nicer office, more flex time/telecommute, interesting project,
              not having to do shit work, carry pager etc.] --psb
              \_ how much do you get paid for having a lot of experience but
                 no college degree? Thanks Partha
                 \_ I know someone who has a GED who makes about 1/4 million
                    dollars a year as some kind of fancy sysadmin
              \_ I agree with this. No one likes to find out that his
                 incompetent coworker on the verge of being fired all the
                 time makes more. Yes, this happened to me many times
                 before I learned to stop being a chump and make a demand.
                 \- well there is also the emperor has no clothes phenomenon.
                    i have a colleague that spends a lot of time traveling
                    to give seminars, has a couple of published books, is on
                    the editorial boards of mutliple things but is a demon-
                    strable moron ... to the point where his comments in
                    meetings have led to embarassed silences, people tell
                    stories about his cluelessness, share strategies for
                    dealing with his dumb ideas etc. it seems like sleazyness
                    [like this guy claims to have taught at uc berkeley ...
                    now either he did so once or means uc extension] works
                    as does shmoozing [he spends a lot of time gladhanding,
                    which is easy to do when you dont have work obligations]
            \_ If you give a figure first, you lose. The game is to
               continue to ask for market rate until they break down and
               cough up a number - then refuse it until they tell you no.
               I am glad you got what you wanted, though.
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