Health Eyes - Berkeley CSUA MOTD
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Health:Eyes:
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    

2009/10/27-11/3 [Recreation/Dating, Health/Eyes] UID:53473 Activity:nil
10/28   I am a perfect man and I am never wrong. I tried to read the following
        color blindness test and I cannot read it even though people around
        me claim that they can read it. I think this is impossible because
        I am a perfect person and I don't have color blindness and I find
        it impossible that people can read it. How does it work? How much
        time did you guys spend to "get it"? This is an impossible test.
        I call it shenanaigans.
        http://www.archimedes-lab.org/images8/reverse_ishihara.gif
        \_ My color blind friend couldn't read it. He got mad at me when I
           accused him of faking being color blind. Maybe you need to be a
           certain kind of color blind.
        \_ I see big and small circles of different colors.  What am I supposed
           to read?
           \_ I see a n3kk3d gurl, you don't?
              \_ Damn, http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html
                 actually says only color blind people can read it.  No wonder
                 I can't.  But what's strange is that even after I convert it
                 to B&W by using "Desaturate" in Photostop, I still can't read
                 to B&W by using "Desaturate" in Photoshop, I still can't read
                 it.  -- PP
                 \_ Color blindness doesn't work that way. It's more like
                    color blind people cannot distinguish between two different
                    specific hues.
        \_ 30? A trick question? Oh I can see it with my glasses off and
           halway across the room from the monitor. Pretty funny.
           \_ Somewhere back in the 90s, a pretty well known guy in networking
              got his kid a summer job with LBL network operations. Part of
              his job was making custom ethernet cables and such ... but
              for some reason, the cables he made never seemed to work ...
              which was awkward because his supervisor didnt want to tell
              the dad that his was incompetent at cable punching. Eventually
              they discovered he was colorblind and couldnt read the colored
              wiring map or see the wires correctly, so nothing was connected
              correctly.
              \_ the kid says the whole thing is shinanigan because his
                 girlfriend can't do the job either. Since he and his
                 girlfriend are perfectly normal people, it's impossible,
                 or at best improbable. he calls it shinanigans!
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    

2009/9/28-10/8 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Eyes] UID:53407 Activity:nil
9/28    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbch
        Carl Sagan autotune
        \_ "The URL contained a malformed video ID."
2009/2/11-16 [Health/Dental, Health/Eyes] UID:52557 Activity:nil
2/10    If Neo gives you a choice of a blue pill or a red pill, which one
        would you take and why?
        \_ Which one is which again?  Which one would you take?
        \_ I'd take both and see if it crashes the system.
        \_ Punch Neo, take his bottle of pills and give them to your friends
           and see what happens to them.
        \_ I'd take the blue pill, but only after forcing the red one into
           Schwarzenegger's mouth.
        \_ Neo?  Morpheus was the one pushing the red & blue pills!
            http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php
2007/9/19-22 [Health/Eyes] UID:48115 Activity:high
9/19    How many of your moms act weird? My mom has been calling/harrasing
        me lately. A typical call would go something like this:
        -I'm sick, I need to go to the hospital (she can't drive, can't
         speak English)
        -I will probably feel better after I nap
        -You kids take care of yourselves
        -I don't want to go to the hospital, I'm perfectly ok!
        -I just want to take a nap call, it's ok I'm fine.
        -But if I don't feel well I'll go to the hospital soon
        -You kids need to learn to care take of yourselves (hello, I've
         been living alone and supporting and taking care of myself
         for over 10 years, if anything I'm the one providing)
        -I can't read my letters (old age). No I don't need glasses I'm
         perfectly healthy! I was the only person in college who didn't
         need glasses, I still have 20/20 (bullshit!)
        -Why do you sound so impatient, gosh I wish I never called you
         (I'm at work and she calls me at the most inopportune moments)
        She's nearing 70 and it's been 20 years since her menopause
        and she acts crazier and crazier every year. Her tone and
        demeaner... it's like she wants me to suffer mentally with her
        or something.
        \_ just TASE her
        \_ You haven't met my mom.
        \_ My mom got drunk and tried to shoot my dad with a shotgun.
           No joke. But it wasn't loaded. She also once came around my
           house and banged on my door shouting that I was a pedophile,
           for the benefit of my neighbors.
           \_ THANK YOU. You made me laugh and made me feel a LOT
              better and less bitter about my mom.              -op
           \_ SHOTGUN??? Are you from Tennessee or Alabama by any chance?
              \_ Are you an idiot?  A shotgun is arguably *the* best home
                 defense weapon, especially when loaded with shot that won't
                 penetrate 2 layers of sheet rock.
        \_ This is why I think all the futurists that claim "People born today
           will live forever!" are idiots.  Even if we could figure out how to fix
           everything else, the brain deteriorates past about 60.  What's the
           will live forever!" are idiots.  Even if we could figure out how
           to fix
           everything else, the brain deteriorates past about 20.  What's the
           point in being a 200 year old vegetable?
           \_ If you assume what futurists assume about the promise of stem
              cells, you may be able to constantly regenerate your brain.
              \_ Like I said, idiots.
           \_ That's ok, it might take that long to recover my SS taxes.
        \_ My Dad is doing some of the same kind of whacked out stuff:
           - Calls 911 and reports that he is having a heart attack, then
             attacks the paramedics when they arrive.
           - He is a retired peace officer, so instead of arresting him they
             5150, then 5250 him and lock him up in the psych ward for two weeks\
           - Immediately on getting out, he sells his house and moves waaay out
             in the desert, living like the Unabomber.
           - Now he calls me all the time and complains how lonely he is and
             how he is thinking about shooting himself.
           And he is only 64!
           \_ Ha ha ha that is pretty hilarious and actually not that
              uncommon! Welcome to the new age, where we have advanced
              medical technology that'll extend lives of old people so
              that they can live miserably longer, and spread their
              misery to people around them.     -guy in similar situation
        \_ My parents are really normal in the 70s and 80s.  Good luck.
           \_ Different people age differently. We didn't have all these
              age problems till people started living longer.
              People from my dad's side age normally, but almost everyone
              on my mom's side become crazy after they're in their late
              30s. I guess I'll find out if I'll be normal or not very
              soon. In the worst case, I'm a "carrier" of crazy genes.
        \_ What culture or ethnicity are these parents in question?
           \_ Chinese.                                  -op
              \_ I guessed as much. Mercury, selenium, and other heavy
                 metals poisoning?
                 \_ Uh, how the hell would I know? And I don't think it's
                    environmental because there are just as many crazy
                    assed Asian Americans (born in the US) as FOBs.
            \_ 5th or 6th generation white American. Mostly German.
                    \_ It's the fish. Those heavy metals accumulate in
                       all the fish they eat.
                       \_ No you FUCKING DUMB ASS. As I said before crazy
                          assed Asian Americans (who have the same diet as
                          everyone else, you know, KFC, McD, Burger King,
                          Olive Gardens, Soup Plantation, etc) are
                          just as crazy as FOBs.
                          \_ Asian Americans still eat a lot of fish as
                             compared to the populace at large.
            \_ 5th or 6th generation white American. Mostly German. -pp
               \_ These are the rednecks with the guns?
               \_ Does this explain the massive accounts of crazy Heil
                  German behaviors reported on Yahoo Odd News every day?
                  \_ On Loveline they used to play a game where they read
                     some crazy ass (but true) story and ask: "Florida
                     or Germany?"
2007/7/27-8/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:47450 Activity:nil
7/27    ilyas, if healthcare has no positive effects, to what then do we
        attribute the huge increase in expected human lifespan in rich
        industrialized countries over the last 100 years?  Of course improved
        sanitation is one obvious cause, but it can't account for everything.
        \_
        \_ Have you actually read the study?  They weren't comparing 'medicine'
           to 'no medicine,' but 'free medicine' to 'medicine you pay for
           yourself.'  They found almost no positive effect except in I think
           two cases.  One was optometry, and I forget the other one, but
           essentially the statistics would expect one positive result like
           that just from the noise.  The 'causal explanation' is that if you
           perceive the healthcare as 'free' you go in for more procedures and
           this becomes counterproductive, whereas if you pay for everything
           yourself, you tend to go see a doctor when you think you really
           need it, and in that case medical intervention is far far more likely
           to actually be beneficial.  (They adjusted for things like income
           and initial health of course). -- ilyas
           \_ Did you read the study yourself?  They were comparing
              free medical care to cost-sharing--not to "medicine you pay
              for yourself".  They found positive effects including 10%
              reduced morbitity due to hypertension in the population that
              got free medical care.  They found the population that
              cost-shared went to doctors less often for *all kinds* of
              procedures, including highly effective ones.  And the positive
              effects were more pronounced among the poorest of the population.
              The study simply doesn't say what you says it does.  Also, it
              was done in 1982 and health care has changed enormously since
              then, particularly in the U.S.  And, you're a moron.  -tom
              \_ From the actual study pdf results section (not the glitzy 2006
                 html summary you read): "For the 'average' person enrolled in
                 the experiment, we observed two significant positive effects of
                 free care relative to cost-sharing: corrected far vision
                 (i.e., when the enrolle was wearing his or her usual glasses
                 or contact lenses) was better by 0.1 Snellen lines
                 (p = 0.001) and diastolic blood pressure was lower by 0.8 mm
                 Hg (p = 0.03).  For the remaining measures, confidence limits
                 for the differences between the free and cost-sharing plans
                 were sufficiently narrow to conclude that, for the average
                 participant, any true differences would be clinically and
                 socially negligible."  Yes, clearly the subjects didn't
                 pay for the entire care themselves (although in one regime
                 it was 95% of the cost I think), nor did I imply they did --
                 I used the same 'summary language' the study authors did
                 themselves.  I won't call you a moron, I ll let history
                 be the judge. -- ilyas
                 \_ ilyas is a moron  -history
                    \_ But... but... but he'e my FRIEND!! *sob*
                       --the invisible hand
           \_ Ilyas, would you please re-post your link?  Either someone
              keeps deleting it or I've just missed it.  Thanks.
              \_ Search for 'jrleek.' -- ilyas
2007/7/26-8/1 [Health, Health/Eyes] UID:47430 Activity:nil
7/26    ilyas, in your conversation with tom below, you mention a study you
        have linked to twice, but I can't find your links.  Could you repost
        it? -jrleek
        \_ stfw         -ilyas
        \_ http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/rand_health_ins.html
           http://www.rand.org/health/projects/hie
           (Don't sign my name, dickwad.) -- ilyas
2006/11/3-4 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Eyes] UID:45139 Activity:nil
11/3    After tech jobs, outsourcing now infests health care.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061102/ap_on_he_me/outsourcing_health
        \_ Health care was destroyed the day the first HMO was born.
2006/4/23-24 [Reference/Military, Health/Eyes] UID:42807 Activity:nil
4/22    Man shoots himself 12 times in the head with a nail-gun and
        lives.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002945554_webnail21.html
        \_ I bet an American-made nail gun would have worked right the first
           time.
2006/4/4 [Health/Eyes, Health/Women] UID:42649 Activity:moderate
4/4     hey sky I thought you lived in the bay area
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1746333,00.html?gusrc=rss
        The strange case of the man who took 40,000 ecstasy pills in
        nine years
        \_ That's Sparky.  "Uh..uh..uh...fuggit."  -John
        \_ Are you sure this is sky? Sounds like dans to me.
           \_ Agreed. The exclamation marks, capitalization, and
              the fact that he responds to trolls 24x7 are all leading
              indicators that dans is on meth. sky on the other hand
              is on weeds.
              \_ At least he freebases with his circle of friends.
              \_ Will dans stop the madness before he becomes the next
                 muchandr?!
              \_ Troll harder. -dans
              \_ Troll harder.  By the way, I seem to be missing the volume of
                 the New England Journal of Medicine that published the
                 double-blind study correlating motd posting habits to drug
                 use.  Why don't you post a link to the article so the rest of
                 us can read it? -dans
        \_ So that's like what, 4 kilos of MDMA?
2005/12/5-7 [Recreation/Dating, Health/Eyes] UID:40870 Activity:kinda low
12/5    Testing
        \_ Failed.
        \_ More testing.
           \_ And again, just to be sure.
        \_ What is my name. How about now.
        \_ What is my name now.
           \_ Your powers are weak old man.
              \_ Yes, I apparently don't have a name.
        \_ Who picked the names?
           \_ I suspect it's just kchang's way to poke people in the eye.
              People he doesn't like get hitler, etc.
                 \- Why can't we choose our own names?
                    No, I tried it before & it didn't work!
                    I had four guys fighting over Mr. Black
                    \_ Mr. Black may not be such a popular name here.
              \_ I guess this brings name calling to a whole new level.
        \_ What's my name then?
           \_ This is a test of the emergency motd ID system.
           \_ Note to FBI: billclinton likes kiddie porn. Please sieze his PC.
        \_ Can't wait for amckee to get freaky and try to sorry darthVader.
           \_ heh, good one!
        \_ I feel your pain.
           \_ I did not have sex with that woman.
        \_ I am NOT a Troll.
           \_ I did not have sex with that Troll.
        \_ I am NOT a woman.
2005/11/1-4 [Health/Eyes] UID:40395 Activity:nil
11/1    Finally, bionic eyes:
        http://www.medgadget.com/archives/2005/11/the_implantable.html
        \_ But if you implant it, you lose a little bit of your humanity.
        \_ W00t!  I want the little gold Zeiss-Ikon writing around the edge
           of the cornea.  -John
2005/10/31-11/2 [Health/Eyes] UID:40366 Activity:nil
10/31   PHaSRs on Stun Captain?
        http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001911.html
        \_ Fascinating (and cool), but doesn't that require some remarkable
           marksmanship?
           \_ You are thinking single target. This is crowd control. Think
              mob. And you don't need to get everyone, just enough to deter.
              Say 25% of the people up front. That'll cause a mass retreat.

        http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=104543&org=NSF&from=news
2005/8/30-31 [Recreation/Food, Health/Eyes] UID:39357 Activity:nil
8/30    Chavez offers us fuel and food on top of free eye surgery.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/pl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil
        Now we REALLY need to assassinate him.
        \_ Ha! He has succumed to the dreaded threat of Pat Robertson!
        \_ I don't think he understands that we kick our poor people when
           they're down.
        \_ Hehe.  I actually think he's pretty funny.
        \_ Al Capone was actually a hero in the 30s to the really poor
           people in Chicago. He setup cafes to feed the people who
           would have starved to death during the great depression. How
           he got money to setup cafes is another story. Today, we are
           in need of another hero. We need someone to take money from
           Bill Gates, Walmart Waltons, and other super wealthy kings
           to give wealth back to the poor. We have no such hero today.
2005/6/15-16 [Health/Dental, Health/Eyes] UID:38138 Activity:high
6/15    So the Schiavo autopsy shows her brain was hopelessly deteriorated
        and damaged beyond all hope of any recovery.  What you want to bet
        this isn't going to change anyone's mind?
        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/national/15cnd-schiavo.html?ex=1276488000&en=f3948639dfbb578b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
        \_ The below "debate" just goes to show that my last sentence was
           entirely correct.  --op
        \_ What say we all stop feeding dgies' fanaticism right now, and save
           us all the pain?
           \_ I wrote one post, smartypants (excluding this). -dgies
              \_ Oops.  Indeed.  My bad.  It's sooper-anonymous troll
                 (emarkp? reiffin? jblack?)
                 \_ Still your bad.  Why are you naming people when you *know*
                    it can't possibly be all 3 and likely isn't any of them?
                    How about you just get over it or go talk to kchang about
                    his tracker.  You could have easily checked login times to
                    shorten that list, too.  Sheesh, so lazy.  So presumptive.
        \_ The question wasn't whether her brain was undamaged.  It was how she
           could respond given the condition of her brain.
           \_ midichlorians.
           \_ But a lot of the BS right wingers were claiming, such as the
              "alleged MD" Dr. Bill Frist and her being able to follow a
              balloon is clearly false since according to the autopsy she was
              blind, which I assume is because her vision center was not there
              anymore.
                \_ Seriously. I think frist is a disgrace to harvard medical
                   school for his completely dumbass and uninformed opinions
                   in this schiavo situation. I think every neurologist in
                   the country was disgusted and offended by his comments.
                   \_ Heh.  You should hear what surgeons (Frist is one) say
                      about neurologists.  Actually, you should hear what most
                      doctors say in private about neurologists.
                      \_ What do they say? My neighbor is a neurologist,
                         so I hear what neurologists say about "most
                         doctors".
                         \_ Neurology is for people who really aren't
                            interested in being a doctor, in the sense that
                            neurologists rarely save lives or make real impact.
                            Neurologists tend to have cush residencies and
                            careers.  When is the last time one has to be
                            called in to handle a neurological emergency?
                            Despite its cushness, neurology tends to be one of
                            the easiest residency programs to get into, mostly
                            because of low pay and lack of respect from doctors
                            in other specialties, and end up attracting the
                            least talented and/or ambitious med school grads.
                            That's just what my brother (UCD surgery prof.),
                            his wife (anesthesiologist), and their colleagues
                            say (when I asked the question at one Xmas party).
                            \_ Um, I think it has more to do with the fact that
                               they have to interact with crazy people. I mean
                               really batshit violent fucking CRAZY people.
                               \_ Uh, ok, if you say so, 'cuz the people I
                                  polled didn't.  Of course, I only polled,
                                  oh, 10-ish doctors at the party, and you're
                                  not a doctor at all.
                                  \_ heh, there were neurologists there saying
                                     how disrespected neurologists are?
                                     \_ Thinking back (this was a couple of
                                        years ago), I think there were 1
                                        radiologist and 1 cardiologist at the
                                        party.  The rest were surgeons and
                                        anesthesiologists.
                               Frankly your doctor friends sound pretty
                               arrogant and laughable. "make real impact"
                               indeed. --not a doctor
                               \_ Arrogant?  I thought I already said they're
                                  mostly surgeons or people who have had 1 or
                                  more years of surgical training as part of
                                  their residency.
                                  \_ sounds like they think only surgeons are
                                     really worthwhile. i dunno, the whole
                                     thing about being worried about prestige
                                     and all that seems distasteful to me.
                                     \_ I think prestige from some ignorant
                                        public is silly.  I think respect and
                                        acknowledgement from your peers reflect
                                        underlying reality about the nature of
                                        your job.
                                        \_ Look, everyone knows surgeons
                                           are assholes. My neighbor is
                                           very bright (Stanford) and overall
                                           it seems many neurologists are. He
                                           works with paraplegics and such,
                                           getting called to the hospital
                                           constantly. I don't know how
                                           well neurologists are respected, but
                                           - like I said - surgeons are
                                           assholes and your friends don't
                                           seem to be exceptions. FWIW, some of
                                           the best and smartest doctors I know
                                           who do all kinds of cool things
                                           (outside of medicine) like build
                                           telescopes are pediatricians.
                                           Surgeons are valuable and make a lot
                                           of money, but it gives many of them
                                           egos they don't deserve.
                                           \_ Odd you mention pediatricians.
                                              My brother's ex- is a pediatrics
                                              prof at Stanford, and she's a
                                              generally nice person.  She also
                                              confirmed the unflattering
                                              characterization of neurologists.
                                              Her agreement was what led me to
                                              ask the question at the Xmas
                                              party.
                                        \_ For surgeons to pass this judgement
                                           on non-surgeons doesn't fit this
                                           criteria in my opinion.
                                           \_ And how relevant is it for non-
                                              doctors to pass judgement...
              \_ I'm not confident enough in any doctor that I'd believe such
                 an assertion.  We really can't know for sure because she was
                 killed without investigation.
                 \_ So you put more faith in Frist's (who didn't even examine
                    her) opinion than in 1) her own doctors and 2) the ME...
                    Fuck off.
                    \_ Fuck off yourself.  I don't put any stock in Frist's
                       comments.  I've seen the video of her tracking things
                       with her eyes.
                       \_ So did Frist.  That was a few moments from hours of
                          tape.  What's Hecuba to him...
                       \_ You know they filmed her for something like 20 hours
                          and then edited it down to the one or two times
                          where her random movements made it appear that
                          she was looking at something, right?
                          \_ if she can track once every 20 hours,
                             she has more clue than you twink
                             |_ even a stopped clock tells the right time
                                twice a day.
                                \_ok , a broken clock has more clue than
                                you twinky boy
                             \_ Perhaps you should look up 'random',
                               'coincidence' and 'probabilistic'....
                          \_ I know that critics *claimed* this.  It's obvious
                             the tape is edited.  However I don't know of any
                             facts that show it was "20 hours" or something
                             like that.
                             \_ You haven't even done the least bit of
                                research into it then. Try Google.
                                Here's a clue, take two and call me
                                in the morning:
                                http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html
        \_ Autopsy showed no evidence of bulemia.  Which was Michael's stated
           reason for her collapse.
                \_ big deal.
                   \_ Why did she collapse then?
           \_ She had a heart attack for some unknown reason 15 years ago.
              Her parents remained on very good terms with her husband, and
              only after he tries to pull the plug there are allegations that
              he had been abusing her.  Someone without medical training
              guessed the cause of the heart attack wrong.  And your point is?
              \_ Her blood had no trace of enzymes released during a heart
                 attack.  What is your proof that she had a heart attack?
                        \_ um, enzymes don't hang around for 15 years.
                           \_ They took her blood when she was admitted to the
                              hospital.  It showed depressed potassium (leading
                              people to speculate about bulemia but the autopsy
                              report today says it was consistent with fluids
                              she received by IV before the blood was drawn).
                              There were no cardiac enzymes found in heart
                              attack victims.
                           \_ Did they exist 15 years ago?
                                \_ I meant that a heart attack 15 years
                                   ago might have released some enzymes
                                   at that time, but there's no way they'd
                                   still linger around till now (15 years
                                   later)
                              \_ God, this is sounding more and more like
                                 the old .9999... == 1 free-for-alls..
2005/6/11-13 [Health, Health/Eyes] UID:38084 Activity:low
6/10    I found this quite moving [E'ist Obit]:
        http://www.economist.com/people/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4054912
        \_ passive acceptance to racial prejudice.  It is a role model
           which we want minorities to follow.
        \_ passive accpetance to racial prejudice, a model which we should
           encourage minorties to follow.
2005/3/4-5 [Health/Eyes] UID:36528 Activity:high
3/4     Is Visine Red Out a bad thing? My optometrist said I shouldn't use it
        because bloody vessels supply oxygen to my eyes and that if I use it
        too much my eyes will "suffocate", whatever that means. Is it really
        true that it's bad for your eyes, and if so, isn't Visine a dangerous
        product to sell?
        \_ If it gets the red out, then it must cause the blood vessels
           to contract, even the normal ones, restricting blood supply.
           Moderate use is probably fine, but like most medicines, overuse
           is dangerous.  Listen to your optometrist, he's making sense.
        \_ what a brilliant idea, take the MOTD's advice on eye health over
           that of your optometrist.  Also, you should go back to him and
           ask him how to configure iptables.  -tom
           \_ Too bad all the people that know how to run the country are
              busy being sysadmins for ucb, eh tom? -- ilyas
              \_ I'm not a sysadmin.  And last I checked, Dubya wasn't asking
                 me how to run the country.  -tom
                 \_ That's true.  In fact, nobody is asking you.  This doesn't
                    seem to stop your proclamations however. -- ilyas
                    \_ Do you have a point?  I think it would also be stupid
                       for Dubya to ask the MOTD how to run the country.
                       (Though perhaps it would work out better than the
                       people he's currently asking).  -tom
                       \_ Let's take a little vote, shall we?  Suppose you
                          HAD to vote for Tom, Ilyas, or Bush, and had no
                          other alternative, who would you vote for?
                          Bush: ..
                          Tom: ..
                          \_ FUCK YOU TOM, FUCK YOURSELF AND FUCK YOUR MAMA
                             and BTW you can't vote for yourself DUMB FUCK
                          Ilyas: .
                          \_ which one gets the Red out? Pro-Visine?
                 \_ Try reading "The Wisdom of Crowds." Oh hell, it's Tom,
                    don't even bother...
             \_ WAIT A MINUTE is this thread about Visine or is it really about
                tom and ilyas?
        \_ WARNINGS:
           As the possibility of adverse effects on the corneal permeability and
           the danger of disruption of the corneal epithelium with prolonged or
           repeated usage of benzalkonium chloride preserved ophthalmological
           preparation cannot be excluded, regular ophthalmological examination
           is required. Caution should be exercised in the use of benzalkonium
           chloride preserved topical medication over an extended period in
           patients with extensive ocular surface disease.
        \_ Why not ask an opthamologist instead of an optometrist?
2005/2/15 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Eyes] UID:36177 Activity:nil
2/15    http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/diet.fitness/02/11/juice.abuse.ap
        Natural juices are just as unhealthy as soda, drink water instead!
        \_ Nothing is healthy anymore!  Screw it and just drink beer!
           \_ Guinness does contain many vitamins and
              minerals in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C,
              as well as calcium and fat.  So, to fulfil all of your
              daily nutritional requirements you would need to drink a
              glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints
              of Guinness.
              \_ "My liver and kidney's hurt." -the guy who peed his way
                 out of an avalanche.
2005/2/1-2 [Health/Eyes] UID:36022 Activity:high
2/1     What are some good places to buy contact lens online?
        \_ http://1800contacts.com
         \_ Not cheap and slow because they actually verify w/ the doctor
         \_ Not cheap. And slow because they actually verify w/ the doctor
            \_ They all do now.
               http://csua.com/?entry=32459
            \_ If you can find a cheaper place, I would love to hear
               about it. I have been buying my daily disposables from
               them for years, and with bulk discount, they are still
               $25/box. My optometrist wants to charge me $35. -ausman
                \_ One datapoint: Accuvue2 on 1800contacts is $19.99.
                   Go to any other contact place on google, you'll see
                   anywhere between $15.50 to $17.50.
                   \_ Okay, this is cheaper, $5/box even!
                      http://csua.org/u/axy
                      Thanks! -ausman
                      \_ How is that $5/box?
            \_ On the same subject can anyone recommend a good optometrist
               in Berkeley/Oakland.  Last time I went on campus they took
               forever and fucked up my perscription.
               \_ I have been going to Dr. Wong on Shattuck forever and
                  think he is great. If you decide to go, tell him I
                  sent you! -ausman
                  \_  I recommend Dr. Yokoi at Rockridge Optometry
                      on College Ave. in Rockridge.  I've been to several
                      optometrists and opthalmologists in the near east
                      bay and he is the best.  --chris
2004/12/13-14 [Health/Eyes] UID:35271 Activity:nil
12/13   I wear Acuvue 2 and it's pretty nice. Is the new Acuvue Advance
        worth trying? Has anyone tried it? What are the differences?
2004/12/13 [Health/Eyes] UID:35267 Activity:low
12/13   Miss Plastic Surgery Pageant       http://tinyurl.com/527pn
        \_ Or is it Miss Alien Pageant?  http://csua.org/u/ab3
2004/11/30 [Health/Eyes] UID:35128 Activity:very high
11/30   At what age did people start wearing glasses (reading glasses
        not included)?
                \_ The bronze age?
        \_ 2nd grade: ..
        \_ 3rd grade: .
        \_ Junior High: ...
        \_ 10th grade: ..
        \_ Sophomore year of college: ..
        \_ Kindergarten: ..
        \_ 27: .
        \_ Never! (so far): ...
2004/9/30-10/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:33855 Activity:high
9/30    What causes the particle like thing that floats in your vision
        when you look at the sky? My eye doctor casually mentioned
        that if I notice an abnormal amount of particles floating,
        then I should have it checked out. Come to think of it, it's
        always there from the beginning of time. What exactly is it?
        It moves even if my eyes are not moving... I am curious if
        there are some technical explanation behind it...
        \_ ghosts, demons. etc
        \_ Crap floating in the vitreus humor (inside your eyeball).
           \_ So do most people have it? does it occur more with
              near sightness?
              \_ dad, the optometrist, calls them floaters.  everyone
                 has them, and they tend to accumlate with age.  like
                 dust that gets into a camera.
                 \_ so how come their number goes way up when you're about
                    to pass out from getting choked?  or is "seeing stars"
                    differnt?
              \_ Everyone has it.  It increases as you age.
                 \_ more on floaters:
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
        \_ I've always wondered about that since grade school.  So wow.
           I learned something today.
2004/9/27 [Health/Eyes] UID:33771 Activity:nil
9/27    How much is it to get hard contact lens fitting AND the lens, and do
        they usually charge everything at once? I'm getting charged $300
        per eye (need special ones for medical reasons).
2004/9/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:33276 Activity:moderate
9/1     Dear hard contact lens wearer: I'm on my second day now and
        it's actually not too bad. The secret to wearing it, I think,
        is to not get any tear in it. Otherwise, it'll bounce crazy.
        It's kind of anti-intuitive. The more uncomfortable it is,
        the more tear you get, but the more tear you get, the more
        uncomfortable you get. You just have to learn to control it
        subconsciously I think.
        \_ hey, your contact may not been fit correctly. May be you should
           get a slightly bigger lens?
           \_ what are some figures I should get from my doctor? I didn't
                get the prescription from him.                  -op
           \_ i agree. contacts should NOT be bouncing around like crazy.
              maybe a slight movement up and down when blinking, if anything.
              \_ Have you worn hard contacts? I used to wear gas permeable
                 semi-rigids and what he describes was exactly what I
                 experienced.
        \_ what brands do you guys wear? I wean Menicon Plateau, but maybe
           ZWave should've been better...
2004/9/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:33270 Activity:high
9/1     http://wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,64803,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4
        Implantable contact lenses "within days".
        \_ Can't wait to see how this affects the divorce rate among geeks!
           "How the hell did I marry a troll like you?"
        \_ get this, it's reversible, unlike Lasik -bitter lasik fucked up guy
           \_ Cataracts are questionably reversible
        \_ side affect is cataracts
2004/8/31-9/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:33255 Activity:high
8/31    Dear hard contact lense experts: I'm wearing my first pair
        now (I have to wear them because of problems w/denegerative
        cornea) and they're a bitch to wear. Did you have to build
        up tolerance and how long did it take you before you can
        wear them comfortably the entire day? ok thx
        \_ If you are suffering from keratoconus, there are alternative
           treatments to both stop and reverse the condition. I had a
           rather successful procedure done on my own right eye and I
           do not need to wear hard contacts. -williamc
                \_ surgeon/clinic/hospital? THANK YOU.
                   \_Dr. Boxer-Wachler is my opthanologist. Please email
                     me or do a websearch for more details. The procedure
                     is somewhat involved and rather expensive. However,
                     your insurance will cover at least a portion of it.
                     Keep in mind, the SOONER that you do this the less
                     progressive your keratoconous becomes and the better
                     your results will be.
                     -williamc
                \_ what treatment did you have (the name)? Thanks
                   \_ I had C3R and Intacts. I had the option of PRK
                      but it is highly dangerous for keratoconus because
                      it could cause further degeneration. You can find
                      out about it more on the web. AFAIK the physician
                      is the only one that does this (keratoconus is a very
                      rare disease, perhaps 150,000 cases in the US). -williamc
        \_ The first time I put them on, my eyes were tearing the whole
           time.  It took me about a week or two before I could
           wear them for the whole day.
        \_ i tried to wear hard lenses, but they were just too
           uncomfortable - the lenses would bounce around every time i
           blinked. i gave up after a while and went back to glasses.
        \_ like the above poster said, it takes a week or so to get used to
           them. the only times they bother me now is when i get eyelashes
           in between, which happens surprisingly often. oh, and i've
           accidentally slept with them on overnite... no adverse effects,
           unlike the time i slept with soft contacts, and the world was a
           blur the next morning.
2004/8/18 [Health/Eyes] UID:32981 Activity:kinda low
8/17    Has anyone had to switch from soft->hard contacts because of
        keratoconus, in which the hard contact lenses are custom made to
        fit the irregularities? What are hard contact lenses like?
        \_ I made that switch once. It hurt like a bitch. It felt like
           my cornea was being pinched and stretched to the point where
           the image I was seeing was being distorted. I finally
           returned the hard lenses after a week.
        \_ I switched from soft to hard.  Hard lenses are not very comfortable.
           whe you wear it, you feel like there is a hair in your eye all
           the time.  Worse, when something got into your eyes, it hurts like
           hell. However, I prefer hard over soft because I don't feel the
           drieness.  I can wear hard lens for 16-17 hours straight without
           feeling dry in my eyes.  Further, hard lenses are easier to take
           care off.  Thus, despite all its short-comings, I prefer hard
           over soft.
2004/8/10 [Health/Eyes] UID:32807 Activity:high
8/10    More on Lasik. I had a second opinion from a really famous
        surgeon from Stanford Medical and he told me to lay off on
        any more laser enhancements which may fuck up my eyes even
        more. In fact he told me to wait a few more generations until
        the effects of Lasik on the "higher order aberrations" are
        more well known.

        A lot of the Lasik hype is based on how well one can see
        the black and white chart during daytime and while it is true
        that most of the Lasik patients will see 20/20 or better based
        on this test, it is weird that there does not exist a single,
        quantitative pre and post Lasik study on other important
        measurements such as glare, halos, starburst, loss of contrast,
        and many other debilitating symptoms. Surely companies like
        Visx and Bauch&Lomb would have such studies when they tested
        their machines, right? But in fact, they're absent from the
        doctors I talked to. Not surprisingly, they're also absent from
        the public.   -20/20 during day time, totally fucked up at night
        \_ what's wrong with your eyes at night?  what symptoms are you
           having?
        \_ It's not weird at all that studies are non-existant.  Doctors
           make a lot of money from these procedures, and that's pretty
           much all they care about.  If the studies showed that it was
           unsafe then their cash-cow would be taken away.
2004/8/9-10 [Health/Eyes] UID:32795 Activity:very high
8/9     If your eyes are over -7.00, DO NOT get Lasik. The technology is just
        not there yet                           -bitter Lasik fucked up guy
        \_ my 2 cents as geek who doesn't know much about it:
           the technology of cutting eyes with lasers to fix them will
           *never* be "there."  materials science will progress to the point
           where all optical problems can be solved with something that
           resembles a contact lense in form, but is very much more
           advanced. If I had to guess, I'd say about 25 years from now
           there'll be good technology for this sort thing, and it won't
           look anything like lasik.
           \_ I agree. I will never let a computer cut my eyes via laser either.
              I think in the distant future, we may figure out a way for our
              eyes to regenerate or change form by applying some external
              influences... As for right now, I am happy waring glasses.
        \_ by "over," do you mean "better than" or "worse than?"
        \_ I am sorry to hear about you being messed up, but can you share a
           little more about your situation?  I have been pressured (and have
           been brushing them aside) to get Lasik and the likes.  I am about
           -6.50.
           \_ What do these number mean? I know I am about 400 from the eye
              doctor....
           \_ if you can't get Wavefront, don't do it. Look up "higher order
              aberrations" and "complication" on Google. The technology is
              improving, but for people with high myopia, the rate at which
              your eyes heal is still a big unknown factor (no machine can
              precisely tell you what your "regression" rate will be), so
              you could end up over-corrected by +1-2. I'm hyperoptic now
              by about +2.00. Lasik technology is just not there yet. -op
              \_ Is being hyperoptic good or do your eyes feel strained
                 all of the time?
           \_ Why should anyone pressure you?  Your eyes are yours ....
        \_ so i should Lasik in one eye (r: 8.75, l: 5.00) =)
        \_ When did you get your Lasik?  I hear that technology has been
           improving leaps and bounds year-by-year (wavefront, etc.).
           \_ Yeah it's like computers. Wait if you can. Anyways, tayq,
              2 years ago with traditional Lasik. Then a touch-up (total fuck
              up) this year. TOTAL FUCK UP.     -op, bitter and depressed
              \_ fuck up as in doctor / machine error? or fuck up as in
                 technology error?
                \_ doctor looks at my age, medical history, current
                   prescription, then plugs into his equation. I was X,
                   and he corrected me X-1, where the 1 was the estimated
                   regression (overcorrection) in 3 months. I never really
                   healed. After getting 2nd and 3rd opinion from different
                   places, I've come to realize that NO DOCTOR will ever
                   know the regression rate. Lasik is like an art, not
                   science. The technology is just not there.           -op
        \_ Please check out the followings, I have them -op:
                http://www.surgicaleyes.org/LossofContrast.htm
                http://www.surgicaleyes.org/GlareBursting.htm
                http://www.visionsimulations.com (cool sites)
        \_ yes there is risk, yes technology will improve, but life
           is short.  I noticed I am getting more hot chicks after
           I got lasik.  also, I play lots of contact sports.  much
           more convenient now.
           \_ Maybe you're actually picking up butt-ugly chicks, but can't
              tell because of your screwed up operations?
        \_ I didn't know those fools uses spheric approximation when they
           performs Lasik.  This is so fucked up.   My friend's eyes suffered
           abberration of some sort (not sure if it's a chromatic abberation,
           cuz he doesn't have a clue).  His vision at night sucks... etc.
           For those who are thinking about it, here is what I got from
           an opthmaligist who is a ritna specialist and doesn't do
           eye surgery herself (thus, no conflict of interest):
           1. Believe me or not, there are benefits of using a Diamond Blade
           . Believe me or not, there are benefits of using a Diamond Blade
           over laser.  Two important factors include a. less painful, and b.
           wounds are much easier to heal.
           2. If you are at age of 30, you need to think really hard about
           this, as your cornea is going to go bad at around age of 36-37
           anyway.  By then, you probably need reading glasses regardless.
           Would 6-7 years of perfect vision worth the risk and price?
           3. Eye doctors dont like cornea to be weaken for any reason.
           Most people will get cataract when they are old. Doctors simply
           don't know how would a cornea weaken by Lasik perform when it
           needs to be weakened further by the cataract surgery.
           \-just out of curiosity, why do the pillsbury doughboys among
             you especially object to wearing glasses? i mean i can understand
             if you are doing a lot of scuba diving, or using a microscope,
             but what is the problems for you pentium and xbox jockeys?
        \_ My uncle is an ophthalmologist. He as a saying regarding
           lasik, rk, &.c: "If the optometrist gives you a bad pair of
           glasses, you can get another pair. If the surgeon gives you
           a bad pair of eyes, you can't get another pair".
        \_ Duh.  It isn't a technology problem.  It is a surgical procedure and
           like *all* surgical procedures it carries risks.  The technology, as
           you say, will never be there by your standards.  It is a personal
           decision.  It is the right thing for some people.  It is the wrong
           thing for others.  Research the procedure, the potential negative
           after effects, and your doctor.  Ask questions.  It is not a miracle
           cure-all like the op seems to have mistakenly believed before
           undergoing a surgical procedure.
                --never had lasik, has common sense op lacks
2004/8/3 [Health/Eyes] UID:32658 Activity:nil
8/3     Anybody noticed Steve Jobs' glasses?  He wears the rimless kind with
        round lenses.  I'm in love with those glasses and I've been trying
        to find them.  There are plenty of rimless frames out there but
        I haven't been able to find one that has ROUND lenses just like
        Steve's.  If you know of one, please let me know.  Thanks.
           -steve jobs #1 fan
2004/7/24-26 [Health/Eyes] UID:32459 Activity:very high
7/24    How do you buy contact lenses online without dealing with an
        optomotrist?  It seems that the sites that used to let you fake your
        doctor info have "cracked down" on people exercising their right
        to freely purchase products.
        \_ My god! Are you people that cheap? Just go to an eye doctor
           and get an examination. It's probably a better idea than
           self-prescribing your own contacts. Many health plans will
           cover it too.
           \_ spoken like someone who's mommy and daddy are paying for
              (paid for) his college education.
           \_ of course not.  i have no objection to paying for services,
              i just object to being *forced* by the government to pay
              for those services.  should i be forced at gunpoint to go
              to a podiatrist before I buy shoes?  or a dentist before
              i buy a toothbrush?  where does it end?  I know exactly
              what my prescription is, and know exactly which brand i've had
              great luck with for the last ten years of wearing contacts.
              every time a law is written to force people to pay money for
              services they don't want or need to protect some special interest
              we take one step closer to tyrany.
              \- the problem are the industries which self-regulate [sic].
                 see e.g. nolo v. texas --psb
                 \_ self regulate? you understand that there's a federal law
                    \-well naturally part of self-regulation has to do with
                      limiting competition by legal barriers. --psb
                    preventing free(as in freedom) purchase of contacts, right?
                    i can actually go to jail for trying to buy little pieces
                    of plastic to help me see better. oh, and you know what
                    else?  i can go to jail for buying my cotacts from a
                    canadian store, thanks to the policy passed by mr.
                    "free trade" bush. so here's a big "fuck you" to all you
                     libertarians who vote for bush as a "lesser evil."
                      \_ No libertarian would vote for bush.  It is funny to
                         contrast the apologist way the Greens talk about nader
                         vs the almost weekly mails i get from the libs saying
                         "hey, some article says we are taking votes away from
                          bush, isn't that great!" -phuqm
                          \_ Tell ilya that.
                             \_ Didn't I tell you already I am voting Nader?
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Are you serious?
                                   \_ Yes, I am splitting the liberal vote
                                      in a non-battleground state. -- ilyas
                                \_ In other news, Satan seen making snowmen!
                          \_ Wouldn't libertarians vote for the libertarian
                             candidate and greens for the green one, etc?
        \_ I bought mine from http://www.lensmart.com
           \_ did they contact your optomotrist or was the transaction free
              as in freedom?
              \_ I bought them last year.  I wasn't aware there's a new
                 federal law.
                 \_ Februrary 2004.  welcome to the fourth Reich.
        \_ Just go get lasik and stop whining about your freedom of whatever.
           You'd be the first asshole to sue the online place for destroying
           your eyes if you misprescribed yourself.
           \_ why don't you go move to some totalitarian state where people
              have learned not to whine when their goverment masters control
              the petty details of their lives.  i'm sure you'll be happier
              there.  I know I'll be happier when you are gone. -phuqm.
              \_ if this is the biggest concern you have about what your
                 government is doing to you then you live in a utopia.  there
                 are billions of people around the rest of the world who wish
                 they could live in a place where their biggest gripe is the
                 government insisted they see an eye doctor as part of their
                 contact renewal.  you, sir, are a big cry baby and have no
                 clue what a totalitarian state looks like.  contact lenses?
                 get real.  the only thing you missed was calling everyone
                 a nazi.  you're a deluded selfish little bratty baby. contact
                 lenses... totalitarian state... i'm too stunned to go on.
2004/7/20-21 [Health/Eyes] UID:32384 Activity:high
7/20    anyone got LASIK in bay area? which doctor did you use and results?
        \_ got LASIK, totally fucked up my night vision. Very sad...
            \_ so where did you go get it done?
                \_ makes no difference, I did it before WaveFront was out.
                   I'm about 9.5 both eyes and WaveFront was usable for up
                   to 7.0, so I had the traditional Lasik done. Turns out
                   traditional LASIK really sucks because it doesn't correct
                   higher order aspherical aberrations. My advise to you is
                   to wait 5-10 more years when the technology is better.
                   Otherwise you'll live with a fucked up vision like mine.
                                                -bitter Lasik patient
        \_ me and 3 friends all got lasik from dr. epstein in the chicago
           area.  we are all happy.  company paid $2k, I paid $800.  Get
           a good doctor of course, but there is always some risk.  the
           worse your condition, the higher the risk.
           \_ 1/3 of how your eyes turn out, depends on how your eyes heal.
              The other 1/3 is the technology (how much accuracy/prediction
              can the machine make?). The other 1/3 is the doctor. The
              doctor has very little control on how your eyes heal and how
              well the Lasik machine can accurately map your eyes. In another
              word people have the perception that the doctor is really
              important, when in fact, he/she has very little control on the
              other 2/3 of the factors. I paid $3000 for both eyes to a
              really good doctor (opthm fellowship, Jules Stein fellow,
              awards, great record, etc etc), but my night vision is still
              totally fucked up. The technology is just not there yet. I'd
              wait if I were you.               -bitter Lasik patient
              \_ out of curiosity, have you found any medical explanation
                 for why your night vision was selectively affected?
                 \_ larger than normal pupil, corneal healing rate not
                    normal, and above all, using traditional Lasik which
                    did not do as good of a mapping as Wavefront (Wavefront
                    is 25X more accurate for the higher order abberations).
                    I talked to many doctors. They all said a doctor could
                    do everything correctly such as my case, but there are
                    far greater things that are out of his control.
                    \_ what's the relationship to night vision specifically?
                       (wrt lasik)
                    \_ doesn't a larger than normal pupil eliminate you
                        as a potential lasik candidate? (Lasik reshapes
                        the lens.  People with larger than normal pupil
                        have their pupil expand beyond the area of
                        reshaping when light is low, and this will
                        cause a problem (halo, etc.))
                \_ technology is not there for people with severe Rx and
                   etc....  If you are a reasonable candidate, it works
                   perfectly.  I went to Scott Hyver, had this WaveFront
                   thing.  My eyesight is now perfect day and night.
                   He made a point of telling me what characterstics of
                   my eyes did or did not make me a good candidate, and
                   said that as an ethical Dr. he would only perform
                   surgery appropriate for the individual.
2004/5/19 [Health, Health/Eyes] UID:30284 Activity:high
5/18    Is there a way to find out information about your doctor, like history,
        school where he got the MD from, malpractice, lawsuits, etc? Question
        2, can you request information from the hospital, like lab results,
        x-ray, injection used during the surgery, etc? any help would be
        appreciated.
        \_ For #2, if you mean *your* medical records then of course!
        \_ Sounds like you need to call a lawyer.
        \_ 1: State Medical Board.  http://www.medbd.ca.gov
        \_ I second the website for state medical board. You can check your
           doctor online.  You can also call the medical board of CA and talk
           to someone live.  You also have every right to all your medical
           records.  With new HIPAA laws, though, you will probably have to
           fill out a request form, or otherwise put a letter in writing
           requesting specified medical records.  I make it a habit to
           check all my doctors, and I keep a copy of significant medical
           records (like for surgeries) for myself.  Not a bad idea these
           days.  --chris
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Health/Eyes] UID:30147 Activity:insanely high 50%like:12375
5/10    Work safe.  Humiliation cartoon.
        http://www.lucianne.com/routine/images/05-11-04.jpg
        \_ While not denying your cartoon has a point, I'm shocked by the
           apologists coming out of the woodwork talking about a double
           standard, that "the terrorists" can use torture but we can't,
           boo hoo hoo.  Of course there's a double standard!  We're Americans;
           we know better than that, we are better than that.  We're the most
           powerful nation on earth, we're singlehandedly defining right and
           wrong militarily, and the Limbaughs and O'Reillys of the world
           are saying that our troops were just having a good time, that it was
           ok to beat and humiliate helpless prisoners.  THAT's disgusting.
           \_ Some useful questions to think about:
              (a) Is torture ever justified (another phrasing: are you a
                  utilitarian)?
                  \- you are clouding the issue by introducing utilitarianism.
                     \_ Like the mighty squid.  A true utilitarian should have
                        the balls to look at torture and shrug. -- ilyas
                        \_ A true utilitarian would want to see the cost-
                           benefit analysis before signing off on torture.
                           \-utils dont ness distinguish between the source
                             or distribution of the benefits. like "i enjoy
                             torture" vs "to save the children" --psb
                           Past experience (South and Central America)
                           suggests that torture has a very limited benefit
                           and serious longterm fallout.  Don't confuse
                           utilitarianism with sociopathy.
                           \_ It depends on who you torture, why, how, and who
                              would care and how much if it got out.
                        \-yes but a ultilitarian would not necessarily
                          require it be for some important national purpose.
                             interesting litmus test for would be utilitarians
                          say sufficiently high TV ratings would do it in
                          some conceptions of utilitarianism. --psb
                          \_ holy shit!  that is brilliant!  thank you!  you
                             have given me the next great reality tv idea.  i
                             can't thank you enough!  this is why you have a
                             motd fan base.
                             \- "Torture TV" is a standard hypothetical that
                                comes up in critiques of util. In fact one of
                                the other "standard hypos" involves torture
                                of a spy in wartime. Also relevant to this
                                is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
                                and the questions, should you chop up a sick
                                person in a hospital to save 5 people with
                                transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
                                util in the war torture example would ack
                                you have to be sure you have the right guy
                                and that he has somethinof a spy in wartime. Als
o relevant to this
                                is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
                                and the questions, should you chop up a sick
                                person in a hospital to save 5 people with
                                transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
                                util in the war torture example would ack
                                you have to be sure you have the right guy
                                and that he has something to say. You may
                                wish to read B. Williams [ucb, dead], or
                                Taking Rights Seriously. --psb
                                \_ Ok, so I haven't read anything on util.
                                   philosophy.  It's still great and needs to
                                   be done!  The People Demand Entertainment!
                                   I think it'll be something like you get more
                                   money the more torture you choose to suffer
                                   but if you break you lose all the money you
                                   earned to that point.  That's good for about
                                   3 seasons before it gets a little stale and
                                   needs to get spiced up a bit.
                          \_ I find the 'conventional' conception of
                             utilitarianism hard to stomach as is.  I am just
                             pointing out the current situation as an
                             interesting litmus test for would-be utilitarians
                             here on the motd.  What if there were no
                             pictures, and the mental torture was done
                             professionally?  Would it be ok then?  I have
                             some difficulty saying 'yes.' -- ilyas
                             \- issue now clouded.
                             \_ I'm not a utility, but torture is justified if
                                a guy clearly knows some stuff on which lives
                                depend and doesn't talk. That leaves a lot of
                                   you something important.
                                room for abuse though since they don't really
                                know who might know anything. So I'm not happy
                                with a generic "torture everybody just in case"
                                setup. I don't imagine that would be be of
                                much utility anyway.
                                \_ Nonononono, you don't torture them "just in
                                   case.  You torture them primarily _because_
                                   it is fun and also because they might tell
                     in other news, i heard J. BENTHAM's head fell off. --psb
                     \- Auto-Correction: Head was procured in a scrum.--psb
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham
                     \_ is it strictly a utilitarianism question?  is
                        withholding medication a prisoner needs torture?
                        is withholding drugs?  is withholding illegal drugs
                        ok if you're a doctor and you're trying to wean someone
                        off drugs?  is withholding also ok if you're a drug
                        lord teaching someone a lesson?  how about if you're
                        trying to convert the prisoner from some other cause?
                        would it matter if the "other cause" is islam or
                        some cult with a messiah figure, 7 wifes, and 20
                        children living in a shack in texas?
              (b) Is physical torture 'worse' than psychological torture?
                  \_ Some is, some isn't.  There's a whole lot of ways to
                     permanently fuck up someone's head while barely touching
                     them.
                     \_ There are four lights!
              (c) Is the defining moral characteristic of an act the _effect_
                  or the _attitude_? -- ilyas
              \_ Hi, thanks for coming forward.  We knew you enjoyed it.
                 \_ I have no unsigned posts on the motd at the moment.
                    I don't even remember the last time I started a non-CS
                    thread.  Thanks for playing.  -- ilyas
                    \_ Whoever is trying to argue with Ilya, don't bother.
                       Its like arguing with concrete, and about as
                       enlightening.
                       \_ actually, I like to see ilyas post.  he's almost
                          elevated himself to Fan #1 status.
                       \_ Well, you either take my word for it, or think I am
                          a liar.  I don't mind either outcome, really.
                            -- ilyas
                    \_ it looks like you missed a joke of some sort there
           \_ Has O'Reilly actually condoned or excused the bahavior?  Or is
              this just another dig at conservatives in general?  (I *have*
              seen Rush's comments BTW, but no reference to O'Reilly). -emarkp
              \_ I haven't seen/heard O'Reilly say anything like calling it
                 fraternity hazing but it is convenient for some people to just
                 lump all the opposition together and pin all of them with what
                 one of them said.
        \_ If you've never seen an Imperialist cartoon, this is one!
2004/2/29-3/1 [Health/Dental, Health/Disease/General, Health/Eyes] UID:12456 Activity:nil
2/29    girl who feels no pain
        http://www.kare11.com/news/news-article.asp?NEWS_ID=60120
2004/1/26-27 [Health/Eyes] UID:11940 Activity:moderate
1/25    My doctor says he can lessen astigmatism with glasses but not with
        regular contacts (both do nearsight but only one does astigmatism).
        First of all, I've always thought both were the same. Secondly,
        how come contacts don't lessen astigmatism?
        \_ correction of astigmatism requires a lense not be rotationally
           symmetric: there must be some special orientation.  Glasses are
           of course always fixed in their orientation, but contacts are
           generally at a random orientation. I think there are actually
           expensive contacts with weights on one edge that can correct
           astigmatism.
                \_ Ahhh I see... so is this where "axis" comes in play when
                   they put in axis, cylinder, etc in the prescription?
                   \_ "Ahhh I see", you're so funny!
                        \_ uh, never heard of a pun?
                           \_ yes, that's what I thought was funny.  never
                              heard of humor and enjoying it?
           \_ I'm wearing a astigmatism-correcting contacts right now, Accuvue
              toric lenses.  They're only effective up to a certain point
              though.
        \_ i used to wear astigmatism correcting contacts but they fit my
           eyes really poorly. now i have normal contacts (i think .25 stronger)
           and my eyes are much happier
           \_ I'm curious:  RGPs (rigid gas permeable) or soft contacts?
2003/8/26 [Health/Eyes] UID:29468 Activity:nil
8/25    Do you wear glasses with anti-reflection coated lens?  I just got
        one for the first time ($50 extra).  I'm wondering how long
        before it starts to fade.  I've seen glasses with partially faded
        coatings and it looks pretty bad.  Does cleaning it less often make
        the coating last longer?  Thanks.
        \_ About one year. Only clean with a soft cloth and it will last longer.
        \_ Usually 1-1.5 yr for me and I usually abuse it by cleaning with
           tshirt etc.  My current one has 2 year warranty so we'll see how that
           goes.
        \_ What happens after the coating wears out? Will the reslt be the
           same or worse than using non-coated lens?
           \_ Worse. I bought the coating once. Never again. It's not worth
              it. --dim
              \_ damn, I have been convinced that the anti-reflection coating
                 is worth it. Granted, I'll have another vision test a year
                 from now, and fortunately, the lenses will be changed at that
                 time anyways.
                 \_ Lasik, man.  Save your money!
                    \_ I am not paying much for it. Eye insurance is paid by
                       the employeer.
                       \_ Then get them to lasik you.
                    \_ You only get one set of eyes.
                       \_ Which is why you should lasik them and stop shelling
                          out money for glasses and contacts which both damage
                          your vision and risk infection (for contacts).
                    \_ there's a much higher risk to lasik than coated lenses.
                       \_ nonsense.  URLp.  the risk in both cases is so small
                          as to be inconsequential.
                          \_ Go watch the Simpsons.
        \_ Also, the coating is very sensitive to heat.  Don't leave the
           glasses (even in their case) in a hot car all day like I did.  The
           coating gets all crackly.
2003/2/26-28 [Health/Eyes] UID:27542 Activity:very high
2/26    Is Lasik suppose to correct astigmatism?
        \_ Lasik is one of the worst things you could do to your eyes.
           investigate the Bates method, a method of training one's eye
           muscles that addresses the cause of poor eyesight, not the
           symptoms. Lasik is like giving youreslf permanent crutches.
           very poor choice.
           \_ Quack Quack Quack
           \_ Some people are beyond "eye muscle exercise" quackery.
        \_ Based on my own mother's experience (she now sees double) lasik
           is still a technology in development and should be treated as
           such - particularly if your existing prescription is strong and/or
           you have more than a diopter of astigmatism. -- ulysses
           \_ When is this done and who (surgeon) did it?  Thanks.
           \_ Based on my own wife's experience (she now sees perfectly) lasik
              is the most incredible medical advancement since the knife.  I'm
              guessing yermom went to the cheapest she could find.  My wife
              went to the guy who trained all the others in the BA and paid
              top dollar.  Worth every penny and more.
        \_ in theory, yes.  but Lasik has other side effect.  I
           recommend you go to melvyl and read some of the articles
           in the medical community.
           experience in these areas is important.  Ask around.
        \_ ObGoogle
           \_ Not a good application for google.  Most of the hits will
              be Lasik clinics.  For my experience, the astigmatism
              increased slightly in one eye.  Other was made nill.
        \_ My astigmatism was corrected after lasik.  It was a custom job
           though and cost more.
        \_ Yes, if done right, it will correct astigmatism.  For astigmatism
           and high prescription, having a good surgeon who has successful
           experience in these areas is important (and yes, it will cost
           more).  Ask around.
2002/12/31-2003/1/2 [Health/Eyes] UID:26952 Activity:high
12/31   Anybody wear the glasses where there's no upper and lower rim?
        It's hard to describe.  The frame consists of just the middle nose
        piece and the two ear pieces. There's no rim that wraps the actual
        plastic lens.  I've looked all over for them and can't find it.
        If you know the manufacturers' name or the store that carries them
        please let me know.  Thanks.
        \_ they are "rimless" see: link:www.silhouette.com
           focal point opticians in berkeley has them, i think.
            \_ thank you!
        \_ A related question.  Anybody here buy prescription frames + lenses
           online?  Is this even something I should be shopping online for???
             \_ do you need a store to adjust the frames? and check the Rx
        \_ I have rimless glasses and they are made by Kawasaki.  My
           previous pair was also rimless and they were made by Armani.
           I got both from Mountain View Optometry (in Mtn. View, of
           course).
        \_ You might be better off buying the rims online, and then taking
           the rims to somewhere local like Costco to get them perscribed.
        \_ They break really easily, so don't think that you will be uber
           morpheus matrix cool console cowboy for long.
2002/12/13-14 [Health/Eyes] UID:26801 Activity:moderate
12/12   Lasik works by cutting your cornea right? But doesn't that grow back?
        \_ a flap is cut into it, and then pulled open.  The incision takes
           about 18 months to heal totally.
        \_ whatever you do, don't go cheap on your lasik.  find a doctor that
           has already done a few hundred or better yet go to the stanfurd
           eye clinic where the doctor is the same guy who taught everyone
           else in the BA how to do it.  it's your eyes.
        \_ Don't do Lasik when you are young.  Growing out of your built-in
           prescription really sucks, and the long term downside is not
           well understood yet.
           \_ They've been doing it for years in Europe.  Would you avoid
              other modern and life altering++ surgical techniques as well?
              \_ Some yes, some no.  I wouldn't refuse an appendectomy
                 were it needed, but I'm not signing up for liposuction
                 any time soon.  There are annecdotal reports of problems
                 5-10 years after the surgery resulting from the eye
                 changing shape as it grows.  Preliminary stats show a
                 disproportionate number of males who had the treatment
                 before age 25 in the various problem groups.  This
                 procedure it still in its first generation, so the long
                 term effects really aren't known yet.
        \_ Some useful pages about LASIK and PRK:
           http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik
           http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1998/498_eye.html
        \_ No lasik for me!  I need to wear glasses to hide the enormity
           of my nose!
           \_ nose jobs are cheap and easily done right.  dirt common.
              \_ a paper bag is cheaper and non-prescription.
                \_ You guys are missing the point.  By wearing glasses,
                   I don't NEED a nose job, I can see, and I don't need
                   a paper bag.  You two must be really, really stupid.
                   \_ Your language is verbose and inept.
                   \_ With lasik and a nosejob you won't look like a fat ugly
                      big nosed nerd.  You *do* need a nose job if your big fat
                      ugly nose is 'reason' enough to wear glasses.  Stop being
                      pathetic and join the human race.
                      \_ So he'd look like a slim, ugly nerd with a sculpted
                         nose?  Think M. Jackson.
2002/8/16-17 [Health/Eyes] UID:25590 Activity:high
8/16    how do I know when I should replace my soft contacts?  I have 4 week
                        That burning, stinging sensation_/
        lenses, but I've been wearing them for way more than 4 weeks without
        any apparent problems.
        \_ clean them well and use the weekly enzyme thingies and you should
           be able to use them a lot longer.  They will eventually rip though.
           \_ I can easily go 5 or 6 months w/ my 4 week disposables, just
              with a daily rinsing.  It depends on your biology, how you
              build up protein on the lenses.
              \_ well, that's my question.  how do you know you can go 5-6
                 months?  is it just to the point where they rip?
                 \_ if you're noticing less clarity or comfort, you should
                    probably get rid of them. the reduced oxygen flow can
                    cause permanent eye damage over the long run, according
                    to my eye doctor. of course, maybe he just wants me to
                    buy more contacts. the risks you want to take are up to
                    you though.
                    \_ so a 1-month lenses worn for 6 months allow less
                       oxygen flow than 1-year lenses worn for 6 months?
                       how does that work?
                       \_ I'm assuming you're talking about disposables.
                          Personally, I use two-week disposables that
                          I don't take off until I'm throwing them away,
                          so protein buildup and stuff is definitely a
                          factor. There is also only so much that you
                          can do to reduce buildup even if you do clean
                          them regularly. Anyway, you really should ask
                          a professional about things like this.
2002/8/16 [Health/Eyes] UID:25580 Activity:high
8/15    is Lasik helpful if you're 45 and you need reading glasses?
        \_ The advice below is the best, of course. That said, my mother (57
           yrs old, -10.0 diopters w/ -1.0 astygmatism) got her eyes done. Now
           she see double. They say they can't fix it. They've tried three times
           to fix it. Me? I'm going to wait for the tech to mature a bit more.
        \_ Ask a doctor.
        \_ I don't even have the guts to wear contacts.  I worry that if I wear
           contacts and drive, it may all of a sudden fall off or shift under
           the eyelid and I'll lose control of the car.
           \_ you're a nut.  glasses are much more error prone.  unless of
              course you have a chaufer drive you around in an APC.
           \_ They never suddenly fall off, at least not hard lenses. The
              biggest problem is eyelashes getting underneath... hurts quite
              a bit. I've had it happen while driving. Not pretty. I end up
              popping it out and waiting til I stop the car to put it back in.
           \_ but what about if the screws fall out of your glasses and your
              lenses pop out of the frame?  then what?  don't worry about it.
              \_ A plastic lense plopping in your lap isn't the same as a
                 shooting pain in your eye. Still, don't worry about it.
2002/5/13-14 [Health/Eyes, Health/Skin] UID:24806 Activity:high
5/13    Eyeliner wearing types out there, do you have a strong brand
        preference?  Is department store eyeliner significantly better than
        drug store eyeliner?  Thanks in advance.
        - Hasn't worn eyeliner since High School
        \_ different brands may smear easier than others.  i'd suggest
           starting with the cheap stuff and then if you have a problem with
           it staying put, move up to the better quality ones.  (what will
           work for you kinda depends on your skin type and eye geometry.
           just experiment.)  -tom
           \_ Damn, what an obvious troll.  tom stopped using eyeliner
              ever since the surgery,
              It runs too easily during any meg ryan film.
           \_ Seem to be having success with the L'Oreal long wear liquid,
              but I'm not too crazy about the applicator-- hard to get a
              decent thin line.  I'd still like to hear others' suggestions.
              - Original poster
           \_ Why do you think it is funny to sign someone elses name to
              a post? Tom hasn't logged in all day.
        \_ How common is it for males to wear eyeliners?
           \_ Among heavy metal fans and sysadmins it's fairly common.
                                         \_ You are making the generalization
                                            that most sysadmins are linux
                                            lusers and cosplayers. That is
                                            not entirely true.
              \_ WTF? First, are you saying heavy metal fans are fags?
                 And no, it's not common among sysadmins. You are crazy.
                 \_ No, are you saying wearing eye liner makes you a fag?
                 \_ Have you ever been to a KISS concert?
              \_ If it's so fucking common among sysadmins, why the hell
                 can't I get any recommendations out of the motd?
2001/3/14-15 [Health/Eyes] UID:20784 Activity:very high
3/14    Know an optometrist/opthomologist who is REALLY good at
        fitting contact lenses? Especially difficult weird double
        vision 6-degrees-of-prism (though I could do with 3 or 4)
        people? (I don't even know if they make contact lenses
        like this)
        \_ Lasik will save you money in the long term
           \_ Lasik is worse than pointless if your vision (and it's
              degradation) is still changing a lot, as is often the case
              until one is in their 30's.  Suggesting that someone undergo
              Lasik without any knowledge of the particulars is idiotic.
           \_ LAISK does not work for double vision-people. problem is not
              on the cornea.
           \_ LAISK is not a well studied procedure. There are still
              several problems that need to get sorted out. For example,
              many people have problems with night vision and "flaring"
              after the procedure. The age thing is also important, my
              eye doctor recomends that you wait till age 35 (min) before
              having it done. In the posters case, it wouldn't even
              work, as others have mentioned.
              \_ It's been done in Europe for 10+ years.  How much more
                 studied do you want it to be?  For people with bad enough
                 vision, it's worth the risk.  Flaring?  Who cares about
                 night vision flaring when before the procedure, vision was
                 just a blur at anything over 10 feet?  I'll take some minor
                 flaring.  If you wait until its perfect, you'll be dead of
                 old age.  No medical procedure is perfect.  Talk to your
                 doctor.
                 \_ And everything done in Europe is therefore good.  We
                    should discuss this further over a European burger.
        \_ use biofeedback to retrain your eyes to see clearly. works
           for many. see: http://www.accommotrac.com
        \_ Different doctors carry different brands of lenses, so it
           may not be necessarily specific to one doctor.
        \_ Dr. Russell Cotteral -- Kensington Optometry on Arlington Ave,
           510-527-1714.
2000/12/31-2001/1/1 [Health/Eyes] UID:20203 Activity:low
12/30   Neither of my parents wear glasses but my brother and I are both
        extremely myopic. His this hereditary?
        \_ Infertility is hereditary. If your parents never had children,
           neither will you.
           \_ Seen on bumper sticker: Out of a hundred thousand sperm, YOU'RE
              the one that made it?!
        \_ skips a generation?  Are you sure they don't wear contacts?
          \_ It's just the first step towards turning blind.  And you thought
             it was just an old wives' tale....
2000/9/15-18 [Health/Dental, Health/Eyes] UID:19259 Activity:kinda low
9/15    I need to get myself health insurance, but I don't know anything
        about health insurance.  What are the advantages/disadvantages/
        differences of an HMO or a PPO?  Also, what is an advisable
        deductable to choose?  What is important to watch out for in choosing
        a policy?  Also, are insurance policies typically like month-to-month
        where you can cancel any time, or are they like apartment leases with
        contacts that last, say 1 year, that you cannot cancel?  Thanks!
        \_Get yourself an agent. An agent is in a much better position
        to discuss this with you than anyone on Soda. Look in phone book
        or email me if you want info for one. Keep in mind that individual
        health insurace is very expensive as compared to group. I'd
        recommend that you get insurance through group if you can,
        but it doesn't sound like you can. -williamc
        \_ HMO's are really great until you get sick and need a PPO.
        \_ If you're young and healthy, pick the CHEAPEST coverage you can get.
           Your company (if you're going through your employer) should have
           given you a comparison chart of what each programs would cover.
           Rule of thumb: try not to pay over $10-15 for doctors visit (the
           so-called 'copayment'); find the cheapest program that allows a
           physical exam every other year, allows good drug prescription
           coverage and if it comes with dental, something that would get
           that teeth cleaned twice a year for free too. If you've always gone
           to a specific HMO such as Kaiser, Humana, Alta Bates etc and com-
           fortable with them, get HMO. (although they may not be the best).
           If you don't have a specific physician (or don't care for one), pick
           a PPO, then get a directory from the insurance company and pick a
           a doctor in the network. When I was with Mutual of Omaha they let
           met pay month-to-month but the coverage is for the whole year.
           You may find something better. *shrug* - jthoms

MARK VI will be forthcoming sometime in january.  if you don't like the
crashes volunteer to HELP THE PEOPLE SET IT UP.   Other than that,
deal with your uptimes of less than a week.
\_ Any chance of leaving MK V up as a playing-around machine?  -John
        \_ hahahahahaha hhahahahahahah.
2000/8/6-7 [Science/Electric, Health/Eyes] UID:18892 Activity:high
8/5     My company is in a low-medium security 3-story building and
        there was a burglarly attempt on our office (they selected ours
        in particular even though we make a point to not let anyone see
        what's inside) last night -- they tried to get through the
        drywall to try to push back the bolt, attempted to pick the lock
        through the keyhole, and tried to crowbar the door frame out,
        but were unsuccessful.  We've replaced the deadbolt with a
        standard Schlage lock, but I would really like to put something
        techy here.  Does anyone have any recommendations?  Thanks.
        \_ you know if you make too much of a point of not letting anyone
           see what is inside you probably encourage getting robbed.
        \_ Just get yourself a good Junkyard Dog.  True, cleaning
           up the blood of poor unfortunate burglars can be a pain,
           but whatcha gonna do?
        \_ Lights! Camera! Alarm system!
        \_ It's not techy, but what's wrong with a security guard?
           \_ Small company.  Small building.
        \_ Motion/IR sensor rigged to pager/cell phone dial-out.  Auto-
           activated remote wake-up for your PC at home with live streaming
           video for the remote-controlled webcam in your office.  A cool
           looking old server in the middle of the room with lots of
           blinkenlights (or a single red "eye") with a modem-to-speaker
           and hidden mike setup that lets you talk to the people breaking
           in while watching them and listening to them.  Preferably with a
           really deep voice filter ("this is god speaking.")  Some sort of
           remotely activated network of spray cans with some harmless but
           misty contents, as well as a few red laser pointers scattered
           strategically around the room that blink on when the alarm goes
           off.  Doorknob hooked up to AC current when alarm goes off with
           a simple circuit.  And a really good safe, preferably bolted to
           the building frame (not the drywall.)  Be creative, dude.  Use
           available technology.  -John
           \_ will you help us make our next movie?
        \_ Schlage 6pin is sufficiently hard to pick. Do you have to use
           lever handles?  If not get a schlage A-series knob plymouth
           style withe a B series deadbolt.  If you really need it then
           go with a D series.  Staw away from leverl handles w/o a clutch
           mechanism.  No one will bother picking to get in for any serious
           amount of time (they'll just use a drill).  Make sure to reinforce
           the jams and stuff.  If you're really worried about picking, use
           medeco cylinders.  Schlage has attachments for using medeco cores.
           - paolo
        \_ Motion/IR sensor rigged to shotgun trigger.
2000/8/1-2 [Computer/Companies/Google, Health/Eyes] UID:18844 Activity:low
8/1     I need a pair of optical google for swimming.  What the good sources
        for them online?  How do I specify the different characteristics
        like the degree of near-sightedness, astigamatism, etc?  The entries
        on a eye glass prescription specifies some spherical, cylindrical,
        and axial specs.
        \_ http://www.google.com
2000/6/15 [Health/Eyes] UID:18473 Activity:insanely high
6/14    Vision poll: What are your eyes?
        \_ -5.50, -6.00
        \_ organs used to convert electromagnetic radiation into signals my
           brain can understand
        \_ -18.00, -17.50
           \_ Holy shit.  Who is this, or is this a joke?
                \_ no. -20.00 is blind. I'm legally blind.
        \_ Brown.  Greenish tint.
        \_ -2.00, -2.50, -2.00
           (don't ask)
           \_ What does that extra -2.00 mean?
              \_ Fucking Chernobyl man, fucking Chernobyl.
                 \_ or Three Mile Island?
        \_ -9.50, -10.50
        \_ it seems that this generation has a much poorer eye sight than
           my parents' and grandparents' generation. How sad.
                \_ No.  They just didn't measure it like that then.
2000/6/14-16 [Health/Eyes] UID:18470 Activity:high
6/14    What do the 20's in "20/20 eyesight" mean?  Thx.
        \_ It means they're violating Starbucks' trademark, since they have
           'Venti' copyrighted, or whatever.  If any optometrist ever drinks
           coffee, they're opening up themselves to one hell of a suit.  -John
        \_ Isn't that new technology neat? -- ilyas
                \_ tell of us the stars....
        \_ a standard vision test is given at a distance of 20 feet.  if
           your vision is "20/30", you can read at 30 feet what a normal
           20/16, you can see at 16 feet what a normal eye sees at 20
           eye would see at 20 feet.  on the other end, if your vision is
                \_ you've got that backwards. someone who sees 20/30 can
           20/16, you can see at 20 feet what a normal eye sees at16
           your vision is "20/30", you can read at 20 feet what a normal
           eye would see at 30 feet.  on the other end, if your vision is
           20/16, you can see at 20 feet what a normal eye sees at 16
           -danh
                \_ someone who sees 20/30 can
                see at 20 feet what the average person can see at 30 feet.
                fighter pilots need to see 20/15 or 20/10, so they can see
                at 20 feet what joe average can see at 10.
           \_ I see.  For near-sightedness, how does 20/xx translate to/from
              the number of "degrees" that some people use to measure near-
              sightedness?
                \_ maybe you mean diopters. there's only approximate
                relations between 20/x ratings and diopters.
                see http://www.lpf.com/source/rk/20something.html
                   \_ I don't know.  I was told that my short-sightedness is
                      simply "550", and everyone in my home country seems to
                      understand it.
                      \_ That's probably meant as -5.50
        \_ To be slightly more precise, it's based on ability to discern
           alpha letters at that distance.  Your 20/20 may not be my 20/20.
                     \_ As opposed to... beta letters?
                     \_ As opposed to chinese, for example.  the eye chart
                        uses block letters, easy to discern.  There are "20/20"
                        Lasik patients who can't drive safely at night.
                        \_ As opposed to shapes, colors, 2d objects, 3d objects,
                           moving objects, unmoving objects, get the picture?
                           \_ You missed the point. No reason to pull the
                              non-existant term "alpha letters" out of yer ass.
                                \_ It wasn't my ass.  Thanks for being
                                   concerned for my ass though.
2000/5/2-4 [Health/Eyes] UID:18156 Activity:insanely high
4/32    How much is LASIK surgery nowadays? $1500 - $4000 per eye?
        \_ Look in the Guardian for an advertisement, $999 each eye.
        \_ surgery in it's current form will probably be obsolete in 50
              at night now because of this -- are glasses or contacts
              annoying you so much that you're willing to take the chance?
           years.  gieven that most people posting to the motd are in their
           20's, and given the inherent risk in all modern surgical operations,
           unless it is life-threatening to postpone an operation until
           medical technology comes of age, it is probably a good idea.
           \_ Luddite.  Medical technology is always improving.  This is a
              really stupid reason not to do it.  Wait 50 years?  Duh.
           \_ which means they will be able to repair any unknown, long-term
              complications in a few decades, eh?
        \_ $2500 each at Stanford clinic.  That's where they're *training* all
           the other local quacks that are doing it for $50/eye.  You want to
           have your eyes done by a guy who did 12 operations or 6500 prior
           to yours?
        \_ I had it done 6 days ago.  Contact me if you want real information.
           I'd stay well clear of motd on medical subjects.  -jor
           btw, as low as 1175 total.
                \_ $1175 for BOTH EYES? No kidding? Where???
                        \_ Idiot.  At <DEAD>make-you-blind-for-life.com<DEAD>.  Don't be
                           cheap with your eyes.  -also had lasik
                \_ my last motd note - It is both cheaper and better to have
                   this done in Canada where more advanced lasers are
                   in use.  Of course, you need to fly there for 2 days.  -jor
                   \_ Yeah, and then they install the secret microchip in your
                      eye so that when they come invading over the border, the
                      black helicopter pilot just has to press a button and
                      they make every single too-vain-to-wear-glasses yuppie
                      in America BLIND!!!  Wake up before it's too late!!1!
                        \_ Slashdot had an article on how to hack that.
       \_ Night vision problems!
           \_ Not for everyone.  If you vision is bad enough you couldn't see
              anyway.  Do your own research.
           \_ one of my friend's father has this problem and can't drive
              at night now -- are glasses or contacts annoying you so much
              that you're willing to take the chance?
                \_ I agree. Its kinda stupid to be taking such a big chance
                   on your eyes. Without your eyes most tasks are incredibly
                   difficult. Just stick with glasses. Buy Armani frames if
                   you think that glasses make you look dorky.
                   \_ Spoken by a nonathletic geek, no doubt.
              \_ Someone told me Cadillacs have night vision stuff built
                    \_ I haven't? -- ilyas
                 into the windshield.  I didn't follow up on that, but that
                 sounds kind of cool. -- ilyas
                 \_ mounting an infrared camera and display on your car
                    is the kind of nerdishness that's the reason why
                    you haven't gotten any, ilyas.  tell us about the stars.
                       \_ Why do you think nerdishness is unattractive?
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ What, you mean besides the b.o., zits, and dime-
                             sized dandruff flakes that are usually
                             stereotyped alongside 'nerdishness'?
                 \_ sounds like a scam to turn a $200 windshield replacement
                    into a $1500 dealer-only job to me
                    \_  Actually, it uses an infrared camera and projects the
                        image onto the windshield, in a HUD-like manner
                        \_ that makes much more sense, but then the
                           real question remains: why?
                           \_ I think this feature is not only cool, but
                              useful.  Lots of people drive with broken
                              lights, and lots of things that can appear on
                              the road at night don't have lights at all.
                                -- ilyas
                              \_ I'm acutally thinking about getting a
                                 Cadillac for this feature. I feel kinda
                                 bad since I have been a loyal Lincoln
                                 driver for several years. I saw the NV
                                 in use and it is extermely useful if
                                 you drive in areas that are not well
                                 lit at night (eg boulder creek)
        \_ An eye for an eye.
        \_ A twink for a twink.
        \_ A penis for a... er...
           \_ yermom
        \_ A chicken in every pot, Windows on every box.
              \_ Furthermore, there are no studies which show the long term
                 affects (probably because the procedure has only become popular
                 lately).  Also, you should *not* have this procedure done if
                 you have a significant chance of your correction changing (i.e.
                 you are young).
                 \_ It's been done in Europe for years.  Stop FUDding.
                    \_ Oh, so the doctors who've been doing it for years are
                       going to perform it on your eyes?  And there are studies
                       which show what the long term effects are?  Please, list
                       the sources and I'll apologize.
                        \_ Yup.  Do your own research.  It's your eyes.  I
                           don't care if you wear glasses, contacts, go blind,
                           or swallow a shit stick and die.  I sure as hell
                           don't require your apology to feel good about my
                           decisions, knowledge or anything else.  Are you the
                           same fool that wanted the plot summary left in /tmp
                           so others could _prove_ something to you?
                           \_ The request on the motd was for useful
                              information.  If you don't want to provide it then
                              shut up.  I was balancing the over-optimistic
                              advice with cautionary advice.  If you're pulling
                              your opinion out of your ass, then you're not
                              doing this guy a favor.  If you have reason to
                              believe that I'm wrong, please show me wrong and
                              I and others might get useful information.
                              Otherwise, your opinion isn't worth the bits that
                              record it.
                                \_ Idiot.  Go to Stanford's clinic.  That's
                                   where they're _teaching_ all these other
                                   surgeons how to do the procedure.  They've
                                   done *thousands* of them with a 99.9%
                                   success rate.  Go fucking pick up the phone
                                   and call them.  There's no URL.  This is
                                   the real thing you sky-is-falling asshole.
                 \_ 10 years, in fact.
                    \_ That's not long term.
                        \_ Life has risk.  Wear your glasses if the risk is
                           too great for you.  I'm happy with my eyes.  If
                           you're happy as you are, don't do it.
                           \_ Yeah, life has risk.  I'll just run out in traffic
                              blindfolded since crossing the street is risky.
                              Thanks for your useful help.
                                \_ That's a non-reply.  Back to rhetoric 10
                                   to learn how to create a reply that isn't
                                   strawman garbage.
1999/8/12 [Health/Eyes] UID:16304 Activity:nil 80%like:16297
8/12    When they say "Drink 8 glasses of cum everyday", exactly how
        many ounces is that?
        \_ 64 oz.
        \_ 40 oz. of freedom is enough for me.
        \_ Gallon is 128 fl. ounces
           Half gallon is 64
           Quart is 32
           Pint is 16
           Cup is 8
           Soda can is 12
           The glasses are each 8 fl. oz., so total is half a gallon.
         \_ Wow... it's in binary...
            \_ So are fractional inches...1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.
1999/8/5-6 [Health/Eyes] UID:16254 Activity:nil
8/4     Does anyone know where I can download a GIF of those eye doctor's
        chart? I want to put one up for my wallpaper so I can check my
        eye sight every hour or so.             -poor vision
        \_ http://www.berlinprod.com/berlin/glasses.html
        \_ Come to think of it, that would make a pretty nifty wallpaper.
           Although, I'm not sure why you can't make one yourself.
        \_ Say what?  You think your vision is dramatically changing by the
           hour?  Go see an eye doctor or something.  Geeze....
           \_ Wow.  Aren't you the quick one.  It's called a JOKE
                \_ It isn't a joke.  I really want an eye chart.
1999/7/14-16 [Health/Eyes] UID:16132 Activity:high
7/14    Any myopic sodans tried the laser vision correction procedure?
        How was it and would you recommend it to others.  Thanks.
        \_ Another alternative that's much safer but also less effective
           are hard lenses.  According to some optometrists they can
           actually help to correct your vision (the same way braces
           and teeth retainers work) but don't count on too dramatic
           improvements.
        \_ As a 20/20, I can't speak from personal experience, but I've
           heard that some patients end up with permanent cloudiness if
           something goes wrong.
        \_ My gf has read up on this and we decided it was still too risky for
           the potential gain.  The long term effects on your vision are of
           course unknown and you'll definitely get a few totally uncorrectable
           new problems like some night blindness and such.  If this is a
           cosmetic decision, don't do it.  If you're so blind that you have
           trouble seeing with glasses then you have little to lose anyway.
           I'm not a doctor.  Do your own research before making serious
           medical decisions like fucking with your vision.
           \_ Can anyone give a pointer for reliable information and studies?
              One of my parents has very bad eye sight and is considering
              this but all I can find is probably biased information by the
              companies that promote this kind of stuff.
                \_ Last time I went for more contacts at the eye doctor, I asked
                   him about this and he gave me a really good rundown of the
                   procedure and risks, overall he recommended it. Dont ask the
                   motd, ask a doctor..........................
                   \_ ...................................... !
                   \_ More importantly: ask your doctor if *they* would do it
                      to themself!  If your doctor is hesitant to undergo a
                      procedure, that should tell you something.  Always get a
                      second and third opinion.  Laser surgery is a one way
                      trip.  You won't get a chance to do it over five years
                      from now after the process has been dramatically improved.
        \_ I know three people who have had this done, including one who
           just had it done a week ago. They have all been extremely
           pleased, at least in the short-term. I would have it done, too,
           if my vision was worse than it is. --dim
           \_ How is their vision in low light?
        \_ be SURE you investigate the option where they cut a little hole
           in your eye and stick a lens in it.  This is supposed to be newer
           and better than keratomy.
                           \_ Don't take medical advice from someone who
                              leaves a syllable out of the name of the
                              procedure he professes to know about.  Try
                              looking at http://www.fda.gov to start.  Look for
                              restrictions on using the procedure before
                              completion of puberty (often age 24 for human
                              males in the USA in recent studies)
        \_ http://www.fda.gov//fdac/features/1998/498_eye.html
                has some good info.  -ax
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Health:Eyes:
.