Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 52300
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2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/18   

2008/12/28-2009/1/7 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:52300 Activity:moderate
12/22   What the deal with flyng a confederate flag?  I always assumed
        it was a symbol of racism, but some people seem to do it so
        casually that I'm not sure that's it anymore.
        \_ it's a southern heritage pride thing, which oftens involves
           the flag waver ignoring how pissed off a brown person might
           get about it.  whatever, i don't care, i'll never live anywhere
           where people are stupid enough to still wave the rebel flag
           \_ Well, yeah, but I live in the bay area and there's a house
              down the street with one next to the US flag.  WTF?
              \_ Maybe getting up in his face would help resolve the situation,
                 especially if you are a minority or foreign born.
        \_ flying US flag == ok.  flying rebel flag == not so ok.  understand?
        \_ it's just a dukes of hazard thing
        \_ It's not typically about racism. It's about pride of independence.
           I went to the Jefferson Davis home and there were Confedertate
           flags everywhere (as you might guess) and race doesn't play any
           part in it. It might have 100 years ago, but not now.
           \_ Really? Do you know any black people that fly a confederate
              flay? Why not?
              flag? Why not?
              \_ I bought mine at a store in alabama from a black storekeeper.
              \_ I personally don't know *anyone* who flies a Confederate
                 flag. However, like I said, I saw some flying at the home
                 of Jefferson Davis. Do you think that's a statement on
                 race? I don't.
                 \_ I've seen it flown everwhere, from alabama to black rock
                    city.  You see what you want to see with it.  YMMV
                 \_ The problem with showing Ink Blob psychology pictures
                    to a nation as diverse as America is that you're
                    almost guaranteed to offend someone.
                    \_ You're guaranteed to offend someone no matter what
                       you do or don't do. I think a lot of Yankees find
                       the Confederate flag offensive, but I'm not sure
                       it's because of any racial issue. The Civil War
                       wasn't really about race. I spent some time touring
                       antebellum plantations this holiday and was told
                       that almost nothing changed in terms of treatment
                       or conditions for the 'slaves' after the Civil War
                       ended except that they drew meager salaries which
                       basically provided for their subsistence. Some of the
                       'slave's quarters' were used by sharecroppers up until
                       the 1970's. Southerners were very classist, certainly.
                       Maybe still are. However, the Confederate flag is not
                       some blatant symbol of racism like, say, the Swastika
                       is. If it makes people uncomfortable it's because it
                       reopens wounds that still haven't completely healed (on
                       both sides). Yankees like to play the race card more
                       than Southerners do when it comes to the Civil War and
                       the Confederacy which is, I think, how Lincoln and his
                       cabinet crafted things to be. (History is written
                       by the winners...) I've spent a lot of time in The
                       South and Yankees are guilty of perpetuating a lot of
                       ugly Southern stereotypes. It's just that in places like
                       SF there's no one to call them on it and so it becomes
                       fact to people who obtain all of their knowledge of
                       The South from "The Dukes of Hazzard".
                       \_ It's on TV, it's true. Moral of the story:
                          if you start a war, you better make sure you
                          win the war. WW2 turned a bunch of elitist
                          Japanese into Western material worshipping,
                          bukake loving wimps.
                       \_ The Civil War was certainly about slavery, even if
                          it wasn't about "race." Are you really this mis-
                          informed about American history, or are you just
                          trolling? Of course the Confederate flag is a symbol
                          of racism, perhaps not when flying over a monument,
                          but pretty much every racist group, including the
                          Klan and skinhead groups, uses it as one of their
                          symbols. You have a very simplistic view of The
                          Reconstruction and aftermath as well, btw. The
                          former slaves did not simply all turn into
                          sharecroppers. I agree with what you say about many
                          Californians idiotically assuming that everyone with
                          a Southern accent must be stupid and uneducated. I
                          was stationed in North Carolina for three years and
                          people there are no dumber than anywhere else. If
                          anything, race relations are probably a bit better
                          in The South than in The Bay Area today.
                          \_ The Civil War was not really about slavery.
                             Lincoln didn't free the slaves until it was
                             underway and not even in all states. That's not to
                             say that slavery wasn't a contributing factor
                             to the conflict. However, as you say, slavery
                             isn't race. Lincoln himself believed in white
                             supremacy.  Many (most?) Yankees opposed to
                             slavery were still racist and slavery was hardly
                             a Southern North American phenomenon. Slavery
                             hasn't been allowed for 140 years, but racism is
                             still alive and well in this country. The
                             Confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism any more
                             than is the American flag which the Klan proudly
                             displays at its rallies. BTW, I didn't say all
                             slaves turned into sharecroppers. I mentioned that
                             because it was clear that the Yankees didn't give
                             a shit about what happened to the slaves they
                             freed and many of them had the same (or worse)
                             lives after the Civil War. That's not to say
                             slaves preferred bondage, but it calls into
                             question Yankee motives when there were people
                             essentially working as paid slaves to wealthy
                             landowners at least until the 1970s if not
                             beyond.
                             To be clear: I think the Confederate flag can
                             rightfully be construed as offensive, but not
                             because it represents racism. How would you
                             feel about someone flying the flag of the
                             USSR or North Korea?
                             \_ Your broad brush ignores the thousands of
                                "carpetbaggers" who risked everything to move
                                to The South to help blacks gain the rights to
                                vote and public education. Many of them ended
                                up killed for their efforts. Not to mention the
                                many northerners who stayed at home and
                                supported Republican causes. While it is true
                                that eventually most of the gains of the Civil
                                War were rolled back, it is a stretch to lay
                                this at the hands of "Yankees." It was mostly
                                Southern voters who created things like Black
                                Laws and Jim Crow. They had some support from
                                Northerners, to be sure, but not generally a
                                majority of them. In America today, wearing or
                                displaying the Confederate flag is generally
                                concered a statement supporting the ideals of
                                the Southern Rebellion, which inculded support
                                for slavery and the racism that implies. There
                                are exceptions of course, and everything
                                depends on circumstance (using one in a play
                                about the antebellum South, for example), but
                                a majority feels that way. You can argue until
                                you are blue in the face but it won't change
                                that fact.
                                \_ Do you have any evidence to support your
                                   fact that a majority of people associate the
                                   Confederate flag with racism? How much
                                   of a majority: 51% to 49%? What if 88%
                                   of people don't see a problem with it,
                                   but 12% do? Is that still okay? What if
                                   those 12% are also blacks? I'd like to see
                                   some statistics here.
                                   \_ Do you need to see statistics that
                                      flying the flag of the Third Reich
                                      has implications of anti-semitism?
                                      The Confederacy was a government that
                                      wanted to assert its right to make
                                      decisions separately from the federal
                                      government, and the major issue the
                                      rebel states wanted self-determination
                                      about was slavery.  It's disingenuous
                                      to say the Civil War wasn't about slavery
                                      just because the Emancipation
                                      Proclamation happened after it began;
                                      slavery was the #1 political issue
                                      of the time.  -tom
                                      \_ The Third Reich incinerated lots of
                                         Jews and made no apologies. On the
                                         other hand, the Confederates didn't
                                         do anything the Yankees didn't.
                                         It's not like the Union was
                                         exclusively comprised of states
                                         that did not own slaves or that
                                         Northerners were not racist. So,
                                         yes, I need to some some statistics.
                                         I saw some hand-waving on the
                                         Internets about most people (even
                                         most black people) *not* being
                                         offended by the Confederate flag.
                                         Cited was a Harris poll taken in
                                         1994, but Harris archives do not
                                         go back that far. Real data and
                                         not opinions taken as fact by Bay
                                         Area Yankees would be really useful.
                                         \_ People from California are generally
                                         \_ People from C[A] are generally
                                            not considered Yankees, or at least
                                            that is what I have been told by
                                            many Southerners. In any case,
                                            googling for "confederate flag
                                            gallup" gives you the results of
                                            a gallup poll in 1992 and 2000 on
                                            this topic. In 1992, 27% thought
                                            that displaying the Confederate
                                            Flag was primarily or partially
                                            racist, in 2000, the number was
                                            37%. They have not done a poll
                                            since then. A majority of blacks in
                                            Alabama voted to remove the "stars
                                            and bars" from the state flag, while
                                            a majority of whites voted the
                                            opposite. Gallup poll responders
                                            were split on the issue in 2000.
                                            and bars" from the state flag,
                                            while a majority of whites voted
                                            the opposite. Gallup poll
                                            responders were split on the issue
                                            in 2000.
                                            \_ California was fighting on
                                               the side of the Union,
                                               so...  Less than 40% of people
                                               consider it "partially racist".
                                               Therefore, most people do
                                               not consider it so.

                                               \_ Yes, I can do the math and I
                                                  see that my claim is not
                                                  supported by polls from 2000.
                                                  I would like more recent
                                                  numbers if possible, but in
                                                  any case, you can see why it
                                                  is a contentious issue.
        \_ This is not a symbol of racism:
           http://tinyurl.com/983av3
           \_ I've noticed that hate websites really look like shit.
              This one isn't the worst I've seen, but is somewhat shitty.
2017/10/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
10/18   

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