12/4 A question to you old crufy alumni: So lately we've suggested
VMs, and been asked why it's necessary. We've suggested top-of-the-line
hardware and been told we don't need that much power. So I'd like to
ask -- what exactly do you think the CSUA is supposed to _be_?
\_ Noone said VMs weren't needed. They suggested you use the
\_ No one said VMs weren't needed. They suggested you use the
there is quality, free VM software out there that you could
use. Asking for the for pay stuff is fine, but you aren't
likely to actually get it, so take what's free and works.
\_ I guess...would it hurt that much to ask for the expensive stuff,
though?
\_ When the company supplies a free version that works quite
well you will get a lot more traction towards getting the
expensive version if you have used the free version, shown
that it's actually getting some use beyond "we installed
it cause it was kewl" and that there would actually be
some advantage to having the pay version. VM stuff IS
really cool and worth playing with. The free version
exists because really, until you have a large install
there's really no need for expensive management tools.
\_ Offering a rant, then an answer for my own question:
Sure, VMs aren't strictly necessary, or people can go to
OCF if they want access to computing resources or practice
with sysadminning. But they'd be supported by OCF, which
has basically nothing to do with the CSUA (anymore), not
to mention they're bound by whatever the OCF is willing to
allow/install/support on their servers. VMs let us tinker w/o
worrying about giving root, or a bad program taking down the
server or monopolizing server resources. As a consequence
it is also useful for stability's sake, independently of
offering students VMs, as we can separate services out and
move them between servers as load necessitates. Do we need
the speed? We'd certainly see some benefit. Mail processing
is pretty laggy, and even with my donation of vermouth (with an
Athlon 64 2800+; it replaced a 500Mhz computer) it struggles
to keep up. Upgrading away from our failing 16-disk ~5TB array
to something newer and less failure-prone may not be manly -
but it certainly seems sane to me. If we're going to spend
$2k to replace our servers, why not spend $3k to replace our
servers and move the CSUA forward?
I doubt anyone objects to getting equipment so the servers
suck less, but I think that in order to keep the CSUA from
stagnating, we need to seriously move forward in what we offer
students. Attendance to helpsessions isn't what it once was,
and the computing services the CSUA currently offers simply
aren't as attractive to students anymore. Anyone can find a
UNIX login server offered by the campus with webspace (w/
CGI) and shell access. Most people now join the CSUA as a
social group or to use the office machines and hang out. At
this rate we're going to lose our technical relevance,
and what then? Regardless of overlap with the OCF, we
need to move our technical resources forward and attract
technically-minded students again, because at the moment,
we're not. The CSUA is wandering at the moment, without a
clearly-defined direction. If you guys are suggesting that we
don't need to do more for students in this area, then I'd like
to hear your thoughts on what we do (other than the obvious
'build better student-alumni relations' line).
\_ I dunno, the CSUA hasn't had a clear direction since I joined
in '98. (Web and email hosting wasn't terribly relevent then
either.) We started mentoring in 2002, but I it always seemed
either.) We started mentoring in 2002, but it always seemed
like a bit of a flop to me. I've noticed video games have been
more important since I left. Anyway, the CSUA is always trying
new things. I don't think that's a bad thing. I just don't
know if we need an i7 fileserver.
know if we need an i7 fileserver. I guess I don't really see
how improving the HW -> more members. I don't mind, really,
I'd like soda to work better, but I don't know who's going to
join because we have a nice fileserver or VMs for sys admining.
It's not a bad thing, but it's all stuff people can do at home
now. It's good for current members, but I don't really see it
as attractive to new members.
\_ I already talked about this down below. The primary function
of the CSUA is to be a social, community-building organization.
The machines exist to support that function. It used to be that
the services the CSUA provided on its hardware were directly
contributing to the community--there was a time when having an
email server and web hosting was a really cool thing, and people
would join the CSUA just for that. Then they'd get sucked into
using wall and MOTD and become part of the community. But now
most of the services the CSUA historically provided are no longer
interesting; everyone's got more email addresses than they want,
web hosting is free and better elsewhere, and wall and MOTD are
dead. Providing virtual machines isn't an inherently bad idea,
but what's the upshot? How will you use it to help build
community? What services will you provide that contribute to
community? -tom
I guess I don't really see how improving the HW -> more members.
I don't mind, really, I'd like soda to work better, but I don't
know who's going to join because we have a nice fileserver or VMs
for sys admining. It's not a bad thing, but it's all stuff people
can do at home now. It may be good for current members, which is
fine, but I don't really see it as attractive to new members.
\_ I already talked about this down below. The primary
function of the CSUA is to be a social,
community-building organization. The machines exist to
support that function. It used to be that the services
the CSUA provided on its hardware were directly
contributing to the community--there was a time when
having an email server and web hosting was a really cool
thing, and people would join the CSUA just for that.
Then they'd get sucked into using wall and MOTD and
become part of the community. But now most of the
services the CSUA historically provided are no longer
interesting; everyone's got more email addresses than
they want, web hosting is free and better elsewhere, and
wall and MOTD are dead. Providing virtual machines
isn't an inherently bad idea, but what's the upshot?
How will you use it to help build community? What
services will you provide that contribute to community?
-tom
\_ perhaps having VMs available would make more interesting
helpsessions feasible, as we could go in-depth on some topic
and provide an avenue for students to go further in-depth
after the fact (i.e. helpsession setting up X piece of cool
software and giving them a sandbox to play in). --toulouse
\_ As a crufty alum, I think the CSUA should encourage undergrads
to learn about software, cs, computing, &c. by providing ugs
with opportunities to try out and develop new things in a friendly
setting.
When I was an ug there were several CSUA projects, such as the
lottery scheduler, that offered such opportunities. I think
that the VM proposal would offer a similar opportunity and should
be pursued.
Re VM software - I agree with a pp that setting up a free sol'n,
such as Sun's virtual box, is probably a better idea than asking
for a VMWare donation. IMO, the process of learning how to make
free software work for one's needs teaches one about much more
about software and computing than installing and configuring a
pre-packaged commercial sol'n does.
Re HW - While I understand the attraction of getting the latest,
1337est hardware, my experience suggests that going with a sol'n
of the previous gen hardware is always preferable in terms of
maintainability and reliability.
maintainability and reliability. -crufty-alum
\_ :| Well, the Core i7 Xeons as I understand it will be coming out
some time after the Core i7 has been out, so perhaps that will
positively affect their quality? I see what you're saying, but
I've never really been burned by new hardware, other than lack
of drivers and the like. Care to share some stories? --toulouse
\_ Well, mostly the problems I've had are with the drivers for
the motherboards that are required to run the most recent
cpus. We had no end of problems with an Intel MB for the
first round of Xeon chips (there were no reliable linux
drivers for the onboard gig-e ethernet, the sata controller,
the scsi controller, or the lights out management module).
I had similar problems with nforce boards for AMD chips and
recall similar problems when the PPros and P2s first came
out as well.
For the record, I'm not opposed to the CSUA buying the latest
hardware. I'm just not convinced that the projects you want
to do (e.g. VM) require it, i.e., what is the difference btwn
getting a 4 core C2D system (or 2 C2D systems) and getting one
Core i7 system? [If there is a big difference, I apologize
for my ignorance - I am not an engineer anymore and have lost
touch with the details of recent cpu performance] -crufty-alum
\_ It seems practicality and wisdom are prevailing over our
nerd-rections, and we may go with a Dual C2Q Xeon server. We
await final word from the pupp--er, President. While we're
at it, we'll probably get new, better hard drives.
nerd-rections, and we may go with a Dual C2Q Xeon server.
We await final word from the pupp--er, President. While
we're at it, we'll probably get new, better hard drives.
--toulouse |
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