Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 52119
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2008/11/27-12/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:52119 Activity:moderate
11/27   Hey, I'm new to motd...Are there any general rules/habits I should follo\
w/know about? --toulouse (Secretary)
        P.S. The office has actually been in 337 Soda, not 343 Soda, for the
        past year and a half or so. Speaking of which, the http://csua.com
        wiki doesn't look editable, whereas there is in fact an official CSUA
        wiki that authenticates to our LDAP backend (i.e. CSUA members can
        edit it). It's located at wiki.csua. I'd appreciate it if you guys
        could help add stuff to it. :)
        \_ For starters, 80 char per column. I fixed it for you this time.
        \_ Welcome here! I'm an anonymous old fart from the 90s and I donate
           to CSUA. I used to do recruiting but stopped for a while. Anyways
           the best thing you can do is to recruit more members who want
           to learn more about the UNIX system. You can start by
           enabling motd for new users which will generate more interests
           and awareness to our beloved time shared system.
        \_ Welcome. Use an editor that locks the motd while you edit, either
           vi or emacs, or expect some of your edits to be lost. Some people
           only edit remotely, for privacy reasons, so you still might lose
           some change. Expect to get flamed if you post anything controversial,
           so grow a thick skin. -ausman (The guy that did the CBS infosession)
           some change. Expect to get flamed if you post anything
           controversial, so grow a thick skin. -ausman (The guy that did the
           CBS infosession)
           \_ I'm using /csua/bin/motdedit, which launches my $EDITOR, vim.
              Does that work?
              \_ Yes, but don't ctrl-z the process, or you'll get death
                 threats.  Which is why I don't use motdedit anymore.  Vim
                 warns if the file has changed when you write it, so I don't
                 bother locking the motd, just don't write if someone else has
                 modified it. -emarkp
          \_ I never ctrl-z processes, I use screen to multitask. --toulouse
                \_ I don't ctrl-z, I use screen to multitask. --toulouse
        \_ Learn to make fun of people. Tell them to rtfm. They're gay.
           Yermom is ugly. You're welcome.
                \_ That's what she said. --toulouse
                   \_ Replies are better if the indent is minimal, not a full
                      tab.
        \_ learn to bait tom, emarkp, danh, LOLPAOLO, psb
                     \_ My tabs are 4chars long, so I don't see the
                        difference. Are yours 8? I noticed people were using
                        tabs so I switched to indenting with them. I'm
                        fiddling with it right now. Any other vim'ers have
                        tips on the most convenient configuration? --toulouse
                        \_ Ah I see what's going on. Traditionally tabs
                           have been 8 characters long. This changed
                           somewhat since the introduction of IDEs. Keep
                           in mind motd.public has been around way before
                           IDEs have been popular. 8 char=tab was the UNIX
                           way for decades, until... IDEs came along. Then
                           came along pico and other funny editors. At any
                           rate, a general rule of thumb is that you should
                           never use tabs in your programs. Space only!
                           http://csua.com/?entry=33555
                   \_ you can also reply to a word
        \_ wiki.csua has an invalid SSL certificate.
           It's good to see a current politburo member trying to engage the
           community here, while also bringing up new web services.
           I would like to see more CSUA web services--a bulletin board,
           blog, etc.  Current undergrads don't have any interest in wall
           or MOTD, and most of the alumni population is gone via
           attrition combined with the various password resets.  The
           connection between undergrads and alumni used to be a major
           aspect of the CSUA, and those connections created job
           opportunities for a lot of people.  It would be good to find
           a way to recreate a CSUA online community that would be used
           by current undergrads.  -tom
           \_ The expired self-signed certificate is a known issue. SSL is a
              pain in the ass. I suggested buying a cert that people already
              generally have, though I have reservations about this, as it's
              entirely about convenience, rather than technical need. Also, I
              agree about the lack of interest in MOTD and wall. I was never
              properly introduced to either, due to nobody else showing me the
              ropes, so I'm still hesitant to make full use. Agreed on the
              online forum and blog; I just shot off an email to politburo
              suggesting it. As Secretary (for another month and a half), that
              actually falls under my office, so hopefully in the remaining time
              we can put something up.
              actually falls under my office, so hopefully in the remaining
              time we can put something up.
              \_ Do new users have "more /etc/motd" in their default .bashrc?
                 This would bring in a lot of new blood. -ausman
                 \_ While true, this would be something take up with steven,
                    the VP. If you ask steven/politburo about it then response
                    is more likely, rather than using me as a proxy (though I
                    think I brought it up anyway...I don't remember.)
                 \_ I think it's extremely unlikely that "more /etc/motd" would
                    bring in new blood.  Most of the undergrads probably
                    don't even log in on the command line, and even if they
                    knew it was going on, would not understand why we're
                    using such an ineffective discussion medium.  (Leaving
                    aside the issue that the content isn't anything that's
                    interesting to undergrads).  -tom
                   \_ Well, it would at least bring in *some* new blood. Few
                        members at this point even know of motd. I bet some of
                        our officers don't even know about it. That said, a
                        forum would draw in a lot more people IMO. But yeah,
                        other ugrads don't seem to appreciate having a login
                        shell as much as I do...something I want to fix next
                        semester. (I'm planning to run for P) --toulouse
                        P.S. one such thing is to get a beefy-ass server and
                        offer virtual private server to members on a case-by-
                        case basis (i.e. not willy-nilly, but to people in good
                        standing with the CSUA with a good reason. Incidentally,
                        we're thinking of soliciting donations for the server,
                        but that's not my department. We're also waiting for the
                        Core i7 to be available, since we want a quad-quad core.
                        case basis (i.e. not willy-nilly, but to people in
                        good standing with the CSUA with a good reason.
                        Incidentally, we're thinking of soliciting donations
                        for the server, but that's not my department. We're
                        also waiting for the Core i7 to be available, since we
                        want a quad-quad core.
                        The CSUA's in decent financial shape, and you might've
                        noticed keg's crashiness lately, so investing in a
                        bitchin' fast server seems like a good idea.
                        \_ Overachieving undergrad screaming to get noticed.
                           Just kidding, you rule. Are you an aspiring
                           sysadmin? If so, tell me when you're graduating,
                           I can place you in a good company. -headhunter alum
                           \_ Well, our vp, steven, is the sysadmin guru. I'm
                              not sure what I want to do after college, but
                              sysadminning is a possibility. I've been
                              learning from steven over time, but he's still
                              got the most experience under his belt. While
                              I pushed the wiki, it was ultimately steven who
                              did the setup. Not that I'm not capable, but
                              credit where credit is due...Anyway, tbh, I'm
                              not sure whether I want to program in a
                              professional capacity after I graduate, or keep
                              it as a hobby, or go into digital logic (such as
                              FPGAs), or possibly go into sysadminning. I'm
                              graduating May 2010, btw.
                              --toulouse
                              \_ Young man please remind us again when you're
                                 close to graduating. Don't circulate your
                                 resume online randomly. Give it to me.
                                 The bottom line is I get a cut from hiring
                                 you, and when you get hired I'll take you to
                                 dinner. Also don't listen to a bunch of
                                 people telling you to join their startups
                                 that'll be the next Google, and more
                                 importantly DON'T QUIT SCHOOL or else you'll
                                 end up like dans. Take lots of classes and
                                 get really good grades. Your GPA really
                                 counts when you're fresh out of college.
                                 Follow my advice and you'll get lots of
                                 job offers. By the way, if you're curious
                                 about grad school, by all means go for it
                                 but start EARLY (late junior year).
                                                        -class of 96
                                 \_ How can he give him your resume when you
                                    don't even sign your post? And what is wrong
                                    with how dans is doing? But I agree with
                                    your advice about staying in school. -ausman
                                    don't even sign your post? And what is
                                    wrong with how dans is doing? But I agree
                                    with your advice about staying in school.
                                    -ausman
                                 \_ As ausman says, I can't exactly send a
                                    resume directly to an anonymous person. I've
                                    thought about the repercussions of dropping
                                    out before and decided it definitely isn't
                                    for me, and I've thought about grad school
                                    and I don't think it's really an option for
                                    me. For various reasons, I need to start
                                    earning to support my parents, and my GPA is
                                    about 3.1 or so, due to a few poor choices
                                    regarding class load and study habits...so
                                    it's probably work after graduation, and
                                    concurrent enrollment for additional classes
                                    -- time allowing.
                                    resume directly to an anonymous person.
                                    I've thought about the repercussions of
                                    dropping out before and decided it
                                    definitely isn't for me, and I've thought
                                    about grad school and I don't think it's
                                    really an option for me. For various
                                    reasons, I need to start earning to support
                                    my parents, and my GPA is about 3.1 or so,
                                    due to a few poor choices regarding class
                                    load and study habits...so it's probably
                                    work after graduation, and concurrent
                                    enrollment for additional classes -- time
                                    allowing.
2022/01/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
1/25    

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2013/10/24-2014/2/5 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW] UID:54746 Activity:nil
9/26    I remember there was web version of the motd with search function
        (originally due to kchang ?).  The last time I used it it was hosted
        on the csua website but I can't remember its url (onset of dementia?)
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        \_ http://csua.com
           \_ for some reason I couldn't log in since Sept and the archiver
	...
2012/9/5-11/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:54472 Activity:nil
9/4     It looks like there are some issues with wallall at the moment. Any
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        error.
        \_ Asking questions on the motd will not get any attention from
           any undergrad. You should email politburo or perhaps csua. -ausman
        \_ Asking questions on the motd will not get attention from any
	...
2012/4/23-6/4 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:54359 Activity:nil
4/19    Motd updater thingy seems to be broken, does anyone know why?
        If not, I will take a look later in the day. -ausman
        \_ /etc/motd.public is not getting copied into /etc/motd for a while.
           \_ Now it works and no one knows why. Strange. -ausman
	...
2012/2/6-3/26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:54301 Activity:nil
2/6     Um, what happened to http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~myname ?
        "The requested URL /~myname/ was not found on this server."
        \_ Try emailing root or politburo. I don't think that the
           undergrads use this machine anymore. -ausman
        \_ Ausman is mostly right. LDAP went down due to an expired cert and
           took down most of the rest of our stuff. It's probably a thing with
	...
2012/2/24-3/26 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:54313 Activity:nil
2/24    What newsreader should I use on soda?
        \_ USENIX? You serious? Everyone switched to RSS.
           \_ I think you mean usenet not usenix.  usenet was generally much
              better than blogs / rss (cf. comp.lang.c, comp.lang.perl,
              the usenet oracle, alt.* with digg, slashdot, etc.)
           link:reader.google.com is the best
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I was almost converted to the tab true religion, and then I tried to actually set this up in emacs. I find code with eight character wide tabs to be less readable. This is totally a personal preference, if you like reading code with eight character wide tabs, more power to you. Simple enough to fix, right, just: (setq tab-width 4) and, voila, my eyes stop bleeding from overexposure to white space. Suppose you're editing in cc-mode with a style that sets c-basic-offset to 8 cc-mode now inserts two tabs, which is definitely not the desired behavior. html "My opinion is that the best way to solve the technical issues is to mandate that the ASCII #9 TAB character never appear in disk files: program your editor to expand TABs to an appropriate number of spaces before writing the lines to disk" \_ I prefer pressing the TAB key goes to tab stops (whether they're every 8- or 4- or user-defined # of spaces), but spaces are actually output. I prefer setting my editor to default to stripping all trailing spaces and converting all tab characters to spaces when saving. Too bad jove (ancient, I know) doesn't do all this, emacs is too big, but my Windows editor TextPad does all this. Does anyone know a tight little non-GUI UNIX editor that I can configure to do all of this by default? html Thread Index the overloading of tab-width' From: Colin Walters Subject: the overloading of tab-width' Date: 15 Jun 2002 13:38:20 -0400 So, I've been doing a lot of work on another project, whose authors start out every file with: /* -*- Mode: C; tab-width: 8 -*- */ Now, personally, I find this irritating in the extreme. If I nest about four blocks, with a long function name or two, the lines begin to wrap very quickly. One thing I do like about the GNU Coding style is that it says to perform indentation by 2 columns. Unfortunately, believe it or not, Emacs gives me no way to deal with this. You may say, "You can just change tab-width'", but in fact I can't. If I set tab-width' to 2, then everything shrinks nicely to the left. However, I can't just hit TAB anymore to do indentation, because CC mode decides it has to insert *four* tabs in order to make up to the c-basic-offset' value of 8 Now, your next response might be, "Why can't you just set *both* c-basic-offset and tab-width to 2"? And the answer is because that can change the buffer's representation on disk. if (warn) { msg = g_strdup_printf (_("Error while reading file %s:\n%s"), file_name, g_strerror (errno)); If I hit TAB on the last line while c-basic-offset' and tab-width' are both 8, everything is fine. However, If I set them both to 2, then hit TAB, CC mode will insert a bunch of tab characters to try to line it up with the end of function name, which is wrong. Really, I don't want to change the representation on disk at all. I think this problem came about because packages started using tab-width' to convert between actual TAB and space characters. According to its docstring, it is only for display purposes, but CC mode and functions like tabify' use it for other purposes. So I finally got fed up enough with this situation to write the following patch. Given that the tab/space problem has plagued programmers for decades, one would have every right to be surprised if this patch could make things Just Work the way each person wants it to. And indeed, there is a disadvantage: If I keep the (awful) settings of c-basic-offset' and tab-width' => 8, which I must do in order to prevent spurious conflicts and bloated patches, but I set display-tab-width' => 2, then in the above situation, the parameters no longer line up with the function name (in display terms). But I'm willing to live with that disadvantage, in order to get much less line wrapping. Another solution we should pursue is giving some way to tell CC mode to *only* insert tabs when performing indentation. entry=12521 emacs has been the best thing I ever did in my 10 years as an emacs user. especially when I want to format my code, I have to hit space so manytimes. The best practice is to have everyone working on the same file agree on the tab space. It still lets you hit the TAB key to indent, but it insert spaces instead of tabs to the buffer. One used to be able to hit the del button and a tab is erased, now one has to keep hitting space depending how deep the code is at. All the time wasted on hitting the spacebar or the backspace while coding can't be efficient. Just simply agree on the tab space, one setting and everyone is happy to use their own editor of choice. You don't have to "keep hitting space" either, if you have something like the mode-dependent indents in emacs. Spaces are the common denominator, asking for tabs is asking for special arrangement. In many default tools, and printers, tab widths default to 8 which is ugly, especially when spaces get mixed with tabs. tabs are annoying at best to get right, spaces are a no-brainer and always work. Just hope the editor you use lets you substitute the right number of spaces for a tab. if you want to drive a scooter on the freeway and complain about how everyone is going so fast, well... html I think a big part of these interminable arguments about tabs is based on people using the same words to mean different things. In the following, Im trying to avoid espousing my personal religion here, I just thought it would be good to try and explain the various sects. People care vehemently about a few different things: When reading code, and when theyre done writing new code, they care about how many screen columns by which the code tends to indent when a new scope or sexpr, or whatever opens. When there is some random file on disk that contains ASCII byte 9, the TAB character, they care about how their software reacts to that byte, display-wise. When writing code, they care about what happens when they press the TAB key on their keyboard. Note that I make a distinction between the TAB character which is a byte which can occur in a disk file and the TAB key which is that plastic bump on your keyboard, which when hit causes your computer to do something. As to point 1: A lot of people like that distance to be two columns, and a lot of people like that distance to be four columns, and a smaller number of people like to have somewhat more complicated and context- dependent rules than that. On defaultly-configured Unix systems, and on ancient dumb terminals and teletypes, the tradition has been for the TAB character to mean move to the right until the current column is a multiple of 8 As it happens, this is how Netscape interprets TAB inside <PRE> as well. This is also the default in the two most popular Unix editors, Emacs and vi. In many Windows and Mac editors, the default interpretation is the same, except that multiples of 4 are used instead of multiples of 8 However, some people configure vi to make TAB be mod-2 instead of mod-4 see below. With these three interpretations, the ASCII TAB character is essentially being used as a compression mechanism, to make sequences of SPACE-characters take up less room in the file. Both Emacs and vi are customizable about the number of columns used. Unix terminals and shell-windows are usually customizable away from their default of 8, but sometimes not, and often its difficult. A third interpretation is for the ASCII TAB character to mean indent to the next tab stop, where the tab stops are set arbitrarily: they might not necessarily be equally distanced from each other. On the Mac, BBedit defaults to 4-column tabs, but the tabstops can be set anywhere. It also has entab and detab commands, for converting from spaces to tabs and vice versa just like Emacss M-x tabify and M-x untabify . As to point 3, the tab key: this is an editor user interface issue. Some editors like vi treat TAB as being exactly like X, Y, and Z: when you type it, it gets inserted into the file, end of story. With editors like this, the interpretation of point 2 is what really matters: since TAB is just a self-inserting character, the way that one changes the semantics of hitting the TAB key on the keyboard is by changing the semantics of the display of the TAB character. Some editors l...
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