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2008/11/22-12/1 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Finance/Investment] UID:52079 Activity:moderate |
11/22 Pension gap divides public and private workers: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-20-pensions-cover_x.htm At what point do we Just Say No? Making more money *after* retiring seems like an issue. I say this as someone with family who retired from the military who makes more now than when active. Ridiculous. \_ Come back when you stay at your crappy public sector job for 20+ \_ have you ever served? \_ Public sector do not get stock options, generally do not get bonuses, they do not get 401k matching, they do not have ESPP options [there are obscure exceptions], they dont have crazy expense accounts, they get most of their income on W-2, so their tax loopholes are limited [compared to say 1099 people]. Sure there are lame public sector employees and there is fraud and corruption, but it's silly to focus as a class on military or say CALPERS pensions. Take a look at something like the finance industry which actively conspires with its elites by structuring compensation [moving income to cap gains], paying for what is clearly private income as corporate expense [car leases, club memberships, subsidized loans], helping individual incorporate etc. [yes, i know there are some exception to the above]. You might looking at how LLNL is doing under public vs private management (when Bechtel took over, people were basically kicked out of CALPERS) ... $280M in cost overrruns and the lab continues to deteriorate. Note also: the quality of "public employee/govt worker" is quie different at a UCB, the National Labs, or the SEC vs say the Port of Oakland. \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Schedule Can you honestly say that these employees are overpaid? I am a mid-level manager in a Fortune 500 company and I make more than the Undersecretary of the Navy. This is nuts. Low level employees, like bus drivers and mechanics, are probably overpaid in the civil service sector though. We need stronger unions in the private sector, obviously. \_ I think people are missing the point here, which is that we are paying certain people more to *not* work than to work. That makes absolutely no sense. So for 20 years of good work \- are you against paid sick leave? how about employer subsidized health care? how about employeer subsidized health care? how about dependent coverage ... i mean that's paying for people who dont even work for you. the person missing the point is you, and the point is "net present value" (of benefits) in this case [although really there are a few other points ... risk and return, at will employment vs public sector terms, and to some extent "the sanctity of contract". \_ "net present value" is too effing high. Only in your socialist utopia does someone make more money at retirement than when working. \- do you understand the difference between when money is "made" and when it is "paid"? the issue is *length of service* i.e. the amount of time over which you are earning the money, not the age/time you are collecting it. there is nothing magically different between your pension being 99% of your income and 101%. there is a big difference between whether you earned it after 20 yrs or 40 yrs or whether you are gettign paid at age 55 or 65. these people get 20-30-40 years of paychecks at, or for more than, the wage they retired at?! That's a sure way to bankruptcy. I am in private sector and I make more, but at age 65 I will get jack shit and that's the way most of industry is. Why should Uncle Sam do any different? \_ Because those people took lower-paying jobs partly because of the retirement benefits and job security. A simple choice of how to run your business, if you're one of the people who thinks government should run like a business (it shouldn't). -tom \_ The jobs are not really that much lower-paying. You might have a point if they were all working for 50% of market rates, but the reality is that government workers are paid pretty well. We've already been over that. \_ we've "been over that", you mean, back when you made ridiculous assertions that were flatly contradicted by the data you were presenting? -tom \_ You mean when I showed you that tree trimmers for LA County were making $70K or something like that? That workers in SF were routinely making over $100K? That crazy sysadmin pulled down something like $120K? The DWP workers pull down big bucks? Please rely on the actual data and not your faulty memory and perceptions. Here's a good start: the link I just posted, which no one bothered to read. \_ Data points with no context are meaningless. The link you just posted is a USA Today story with an editorial slant and similarly context-free numbers. -tom \_ How about the UC article some other kind person dug up? You are always rationalizing. Get your head out of the sand and WAKE UP! \_ The UC article doesn't say anything about compensation relative to the private industry. And I agree that people shouldn't be able to retire and come back to work full time at the same salary; in fact, it's against UC policy to do so, and the article says they're going to crack down on the very small number of cases where it has happened. -tom \_ Those ES level government workers I gave you the wiki link to are making 50% or less what they would make for similary responsible jobs in the private sector. \_ 20 years is an extreme exaggeration, except for the military you don't retire after 20 years and even there you only make 50% of your active duty salary. You don't make your case stronger by exaggeration, you just make yourself look misinformed. \_ Actual data: If I were to retire from UC at age 50, with 24 years of service (I started working here at age 26), I would get less than 30% of my final salary. -tom \_ Actual data: read the article \_ Your confirmation bias is showing. -tom \_ I'm the one who is biased? Check out how your UC colleagues are doing. \_ Did you read the article I posted? \_ Yes, and it said nothing about retiring at 20 years. You just made that part up. \_ How long do you think a police chief worked who retired at age 46? Certainly not 30 years. WTF should someone 46 years old be retired and making $125K/year for the rest of his life to sit on his ass at taxpayer expense? He might make more money not working than he did when he worked over the course of his life. We can't afford those excesses for civil servants. He can collect when he's 65 like everyone else. Getting full salary at that time would be more than generous. I'd support him getting HALF his salary at age 65. To get a raise when retiring at age 46 is beyond the pale. He should still be contributing to society in some way at that young age and not sitting on his ass cashing checks from the public. \_ Once again, you're using one anecdote from an article with an editorial slant and with no context, and suggesting that the issue is meaningful and widespread. It's not. Aren't you suspicious when the article says it will "boost his retirement benefit to *as much as* $125,000 a year"? Why the qualifier? [Here's why--they're not telling you the whole story.] You'll believe what you want to believe, go ahead, but you really are demonstrating complete cluelessness here. -tom \_ http://fireflystudio.com/acton/circle/index.html "Bill Fenniman retired in January 2007 after 27 years in law enforcement, the last 17 as Chief of Police in the City of Dover NH." 35% more than your claim of 20 years, it turns out. And it turns out that he is contributing. I hope to retire at 50 on my 401k and savings, who are you to tell me I can't? I will probably contribute to society in some way afterward, but that is my business, isn't it? \_ 401k and savings is your money. Do as you wish with it. Not the same as getting free checks for life starting at age 46. \_ A worker's pension belongs to that worker just as much as his 401k does. -tom \_ Of course. And how many employers are contributing enough money to their 401k plans such that you are guaranteed to maintain your full-time salary after you retire? Not many. The government is paying A LOT more than market for this. I've been in the workforce 13 years and there's barely 1 year worth of my current salary in my 401k and that counts my money plus my employer's very generous 8.5% contribution. (Most 401ks match a lot less than this.) I read that the average employee has about $100K in his 401k. This dude is getting that each year guaranteed forever starting at age 46. As a taxpayer, I feel ripped off. BTW, EBRI says that the average 401k balance of someone in their 60s with 30 years of tenure is $190,593. link:tinyurl.com/2a8a35 \_ If you don't understand why you can't compare 401k balances directly with pensions, it's not worth wasting any more time on you. -tom \_ You can't compare directly, but you can compare. \_ So you took the gamble of a private sector job with higher pay and lower benefits, it hasn't worked out that well for you, and now you are upset that others who took the safer route are doing better? What a piece of work you are! What is the value of 15k + 7k employer is the value of 15k + 7k employer match invested yearly for 27 years at a 10% (average stock market) gain? Here, I will make it really easy for your: $2.8M. I bet you want to privatize social security, too. Am I right? \_ Most people "take the gamble" of a private sector job with roughly THE SAME pay as the government and end up worse for it. Another way of stating this is that the average person in the private sector is receiving less compensation than the average person in the public sector. You cannot count the $15K, because that's my own money and you should be aware that $7K is hardly the average. So your $2.8M number is bogus. Yes, I do want to privatize SS, but that's neither here nor there. \_ you keep asserting that public sector employees are compensated more, but asserting it over and over doesn't make it true. -tom \_ You are full of it. I showed you the BLS stats that proved that private and public sector pay, including benefits was similar, but you ignored it. \_ Stop stomping my edits. As I was saying, I showed you the BLS data that public and private sector workers are paid similary including benefits and you ignored it. \_ http://tinyurl.com/5klnuo CA says it pays lower than other public sector employees and yet even its salaries are comparable (and sometimes even lead) the private sector. Salaries, not total compensation. \_ ...when you compare the state maximum to the private sector median. \_ Did you read why the State did that? \_ yes. the justification is ridiculous. -tom \_ That is not how I read Table 4. All above average private sector paying jobs\ pay lower than market rate when working for The State (and most below average paying jobs are higher, why might that be do you think?) Managerial jobs are particularly low paying. \_ Sure, and how many Americans are CFOs and MDs? \_ And programmers and accountants, and engineers and nurses and ... \_ Why don't they just work for the government then, if they pay is the same and the benefits higher? \_ Most people, like MOTD, are laboring under the impression that those jobs pay less. \_ you think that "most people" are incapable of reading job postings which list job descriptions and salary ranges? -tom \_ Contract law only applies to private sector employees? |
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www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-20-pensions-cover_x.htm Print | By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY Johnnie Nichols, a civilian Defense Department employee, contributes to a federal pension that will let him retire at age 56, after 32 years of service. His wife, Kimberly, a math teacher at a private business college, has no pension after two decades of teaching and running a horse farm. Their marriage reflects the new world of retirement: government employees who have secure benefits and private workers who increasingly are on their own. "If we were both in her shoes, we'd be in a world of hurt," says Nichols, 45, an information technology manager in Middletown, Ind. As the first wave of 79 million baby boomers heads to retirement, the nation is dividing into two classes of workers: those who have government benefits and those who don't. The gap is accelerating in every way -- pensions, medical benefits, retirement ages. Retired government workers are twice as likely to get a pension as their counterparts in the private sector, and the typical benefit is far more generous. The nation's 6 million retired civil servants -- teachers, police, administrators, laborers -- received a median benefit of $17,640 in 2005, according to the Congressional Research Service. Eleven million private-sector retirees covered by traditional pensions got $7,692. Governments' generosity could have serious consequences for taxpayers and pensioners. Some states -- including Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio and West Virginia -- have troubled retirement systems that may require huge tax increases, spending cuts or even defaulting on promised benefits. The pension gap will continue to widen because governments pump far more money into employee pensions than companies do. Supporters of government pensions say the decline in private pensions is the problem, not the generosity of public retirement plans. "Rather than lower the bar for public employees, we need to stabilize retirement programs for everyone," says Richard Ferlauto, director of pension and benefit policy for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, a union with 14 million members. He acknowledges public pensions are getting more scrutiny. A sharp contrast State and local governments have sweetened retirement benefits during the past decade at a time when corporations have soured on them because of their cost. Only 18% of private workers now have traditional defined benefit pension plans, compared with more than 80% of government employees. Contrary to a widely held notion, the extra government benefits aren't compensation for lower pay. Most government workers are paid more than private employees in similar jobs, and the wage gap is growing. A typical full-time state or local government worker made $78,853 in wages and benefits in the third quarter of 2006, $25,771 more than a typical private-sector worker, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. The compensation advantage holds true for all types of public workers, from teachers to laborers and managers. Better benefits for government workers is the biggest reason for the growing compensation gap. "The government is in direct competition with us for employees. It's hard to compete against these benefit packages," says James Bellis, owner of Tree Tech, a 120-worker tree trimming company in Randolph, NJ His company has a 401 plan that matches up to 2% of employee pay. By comparison, tree trimmers working for a government in New Jersey would get a pension benefit worth more than three times that. Superior retirement benefits for civil servants can be traced to the establishment of Social Security, which originally did not cover government employees, says EJ McMahon, a pension expert at the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank that deals with economic policy. Today, three-fourths of government workers participate in Social Security, but their overall benefits have not been reduced accordingly, he says. The boost in benefits since the 1960s reflects the rising power of public employee unions, which have thrived as industrial labor unions and the benefits they won have eroded, he says. The growing benefit gap makes government an increasingly attractive employer. Anneliese Crosby, 46, who codes medical records at a private hospital in Manchester, NH, is trying to get a government job for financial reasons -- better pay, benefits and job security. The hospital recently ended its pension plan for new employees. That didn't affect Crosby, but her retirement depends mostly on contributions to her tax-deferred retirement account. I feel like I need a second job or to be on the lookout for a new job," she says. "I should put more in my retirement account, but I can't afford it." Her solution: Apply for a similar job at a Veterans Affairs hospital. She'd get a pay raise, better benefits and a secure future. "My ex-husband keeps encouraging me to get a government job, and he's right about that," she says. Pensions for civil servants often are superior to private pensions in subtle ways that make a huge financial difference. For example, government pensions: Generally base benefits on a worker's top three earning years. Private pensions typically base benefits on the top five years of pay, which lowers the average. Often let retirees add the value of overtime, unused leave and other benefits into the pension formula. Dover, NH, Police Chief William Fenniman, 46, added more than $200,000 for severance, sick leave and other payouts into his three-year salary average when he retired in January. This will boost his retirement benefit to as much as $125,000 a year, more than he made as chief. Permit early retirement at age 50 or 55 with less of a benefit reduction than private pensions. Provide free or subsidized medical care for retirees under age 65 and supplemental coverage after that for those on Medicare. More often provide automatic cost-of-living increases to benefits. Baby boomer retirements will force governments to confront the rising costs of civil servant benefits. That's the amount the government would need today, set aside and earning investment returns, to pay for promised retirement benefits. Today, new employees have Social Security and a pension that is part defined benefit plan (lifetime monthly payments) and part defined contribution (a lump sum at retirement). The pension is more generous than most private pensions, but workers have to pay more to take advantage of the plan. "You have to be aggressive about making contributions if you want a good retirement," says Nichols, the Defense Department employee. Unlike private pensions, though, the federal system still encourages early retirement. When I run the numbers, the system almost forces me to retire" early, Nichols says. For example, he expects to qualify for a free supplemental annuity at age 56 that provides a benefit equal to what he'd get at age 62 under Social Security. Another big incentive to retire early: Most governments offer health insurance to early retirees until they qualify for Medicare at 65. Massachusetts spent $377 million on retiree medical benefits last year. "It's a burden on taxpayers, of course," says Delores Mitchell, executive director of the Massachusetts Group Insurance Commission, which runs the program. Medical insurance may be the most vulnerable benefit because it has fewer legal protections than pensions, which often are guaranteed in state constitutions. The county hasn't done anything about its pension problem. You can get in, but you can't get out," says John Moorlach, an Orange County supervisor who has tried to reduce retirement benefits for government workers. He blames elected officials for awarding unsustainable retirement benefits to win support from employee unions. "Elected officials love to give generous retirement benefits because they don't cost anything today and they'll be out of office when the payments come due," Moorlach says. Taxpayers on the hook The financial soundness of civil servant pensions varies across the country. Government pensions are, on average, in a similar condition as private pensions -- about 20% below the assets needed to be properly funded. ... |
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Schedule Foreign Service, and other Federal civilian pay systems, as well as the pay of uniformed military personnel, because the various Federal laws establishing those pay systems normally tie the maximum amount payable to various levels of the Executive Schedule. The President may not take action under this section with respect to a position, the pay for which is fixed at a specific rate by this subchapter, or by statute enacted after 14 August 1964. Executive Branch Reform Act", HR 984, would apply sweeping new requirements to officials on levels I through V of the Executive Schedule, among others, including new requirements that they report any "significant contact" received from any "private party," "in which such private party seeks to influence official action by any officer or employee of the executive branch of the United States," and new restrictions on "revolving door" practices. |
fireflystudio.com/acton/circle/index.html ABRHS Colonial Circle 78 Current Classmate Descriptions and E-mail Addresses Click on a name to send an e-mail message to someone, or to capture an e-mail address. Cindy Anderson is happily residing in Oregon, enjoying her private practice as an Acupuncturist. She loves what she does, and looks forward to each day she helps another person feel better. "I'm still surprised when I look in the mirror and see those curly grays popping up, but then I think how lucky I am to have hair... I don't get to the East coast often, and haven't been back to Acton in 20+ years. Brenda Belmont Dargan joined the Navy in '86 after growing tired of living in MA She went into the field of Naval Intelligence & Cryptology, and lived in wonderful places like Hawaii, Spain, the Azores, Okinawa, San Diego, Norfolk, Pensacola, and Jacksonville FL where she met her husband Tim -- also now retired Navy -- and married him in '94. She retired from the Navy two years ago, and resides in Jacksonville. Before she retired, she developed heart problems and was misdiagnosed. She retired with service-connected disabilities, which made her eligible for vocational rehabilitation through the VA She went back to school for her Associates degree in Medical Billing. Brenda recently had a setback and needed emergency surgery to have a pacemaker implanted. "My heart was stopping for 4-6 seconds several times during the day!" Brenda still enjoys watching the Red Sox and is also a huge Jacksonville Jaguars fan and season ticket holder since 1998. Robin Collmer took back her maiden name and is happily living with her two children Kalin ('91) and Tyler ('93) in South County, Rhode Island. Her daughter Kalin plays the flute in the high school band and her son Tyler started on the JV soccer team this past year. Both Robin's children also love snowboarding at RI's only ski area, Yawgoo Valley. They both hope to hit the slopes some day soon out at Beavercreek Resort in Vail, Colorado where their Uncle Matt works. Robin works for a Human Resource Specialist Company out of Needham, MA which gives her a lot of flexibility with her childrens' schedules. Robin has been on assignment at CVS's Corporate Headquarters for over 2 years now. Prior to working at CVS, Robin worked at General Dynamics Electric Boat where she met Tony, a special person in her life who introduced her to the adventures of motorcycle riding. Bradford Feltus is alive and well in Lancaster Massacusetts, pondering ways of "Going Green" and getting off the grid. Ali, did I really change Kenny Franks' tire on prom night? I think the blackouts started sooner than I first thought. Two days after his retirement date, he began a new career with his appointment by New Hampshire's Governor to head the Division for Juvenile Justice Services. The Division has approximately 400 employees and is responsible for children in the juvenile justice system. Bill has been married to Donna for 24 years and has 2 children, Billy ('87) a senior at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD, and Blaire ('94) a freshman at St. "Who would have thought, going from being in a gang in Acton, to teaching about gang prevention and culture in places like El Salvador." Carol Finneault Sabourin celebrates 20 years of employment with Analog Devices. She continues as the New Product Integration Manager in the Wilmington, MA facility. She and her group support ADI's New Products' integration into manufacturing in South East Asia. As a result, Carol has the opportunity to travel to these many far-off places. Bob, her husband of twenty-four years remains a permanent Firefighter/EMT with the Acton Fire Department and a Cruiser Special with the Littleton Police Department. This Fall both their boys will attend Littleton High School. Carol keeps in touch with many of her close high school friends. She meets weekly with Kathy Nintze Austin at Weight Watchers. Peter Warren and Cathy Olsen Warren as well as Phil Warren and Lynn Cowley Warren are frequent dinner companions. "I enjoy spending time with family and friends, reading, puttering & organizing around the house, practicing yoga and partaking in "retail therapy!" Mary Franz Allan is enjoying her 25th year as a Chef/Instuctor in the Culinary Arts department at Lowell High School. She can't afford to retire, so feel free to drop in for a visit any time before 2020! Mary's two money pits (aka her children) continue to make her proud as Brandy (1984) graduated from New England Culinary Institute with a BA in Hotel and Restaurant Management. Brandy is currently the Sous Chef at Sweet Waters in Burlington, VT. Robert (1988) is attending college for Physical Training/Therapy. Mary is looking forward to the "empty nest" as promised by "the supportive parent contract". of New England in Biddeford ME, then graduating from Framingham State College with a BA in sociology. The early years are filled with memories of "hopping boxcars in Tibet, chatting with the Pope, bringing down the Berlin Wall, and a staring contest with a tank in Tiananmen Square." Bored as an expatriot, Duane returned to MA and now lives in Templeton with his wife Moira (married in '94), son Casey ('99), daughter Torey ('02) and Liam ('08), and currently works as the Program Leader of four group homes for at-risk children, ages birth - 20 with LUK Crisis Center, Inc. Hoovy's in his 20th year as a Foreign Service Officer with the US Department of State. He's been living overseas as a diplomat for almost 12 straight years -- get your maps out! He served in China and Africa, and in 2008 he moved from Nairobi, Kenya to Kampala, Uganda. He'll be posted in Uganda for at least two more years, and strongly encourages his classmates to come on over to see Africa. He'll personally guarantee that no Class of '78 visitor will be eaten by lions or die of malaria. Hoovy is married to the beautiful Kathy Lin of California and they have two boys, Terry (1990) and Patrick (1992). Steven Imke joined the Coast Guard after high school where he learned to repair computer systems. They have two boys, Josh ('83) and Hank ('91), along with a stepson, Jay ('79). In 1984, Steve joined Digital as a course developer and moved back to MA Several years later he was transferred to Colorado to become the site manager for a regional documentation and training center. In 1994 Steve left Digital to start Horizon Interactive, a company he sold in 1999. After a few years working for his acquirer, Steve reacquired his old company as well as another company located in the mid-west, which he combined and sold in 2003. In addition to managing the family's investments in real estate, oil, and gas, Steve volunteers much of his time at organizations such as SCORE, and as a treasurer for a non-profit that helps adults with developmental disabilities. When not living in their home in Monument CO, the Imke's can be found traveling the country for several months at a time in their motor home. She is the Executive Assistant to the Director at the Currier Museum of Art in Manchester, NH. She is also Mom to two great kids: Kate and Ally, both born in the early 80s (you do the math). Last seen at the 5th reunion, a heck of a long time ago! Chuck Krysieniel is a Travel Director with Carlson Marketing Worldwide. "Basically, I spend my time traveling around the world annoying hotel managers". This intriguing position places Chuck in onsite operations management of Meetings, Incentives and various Special Events. Special Event Sites have included the Doge's Palace of Venice, the Palace of Versailles, The Shores of Lake Tahoe, Beaches of Costa Rica and Waikiki, Gumpoldskirchen (a 12th century village near Vienna), Monaco, Cannes, St. Bart's, Aruba, Bermuda, the Bahamas, nearly every theme park in Central Florida, Convention Centers in nearly every Major American City as well as such memorable spots as the Holiday Inn of Overland Park, Kansas. Chuck earned a BS in Communications/Media from Fitchburg State College in 1982. Moved to Minneapolis where he worked in medical video production. He followed his heart and went west to San Francisco in 1988 where he worked in numerous luxury hotels, special events and nearly 5... |
tinyurl.com/5klnuo -> www.dpa.ca.gov/tcs2006/salaries.htm TABLE 4 Public Sector Salaries State salaries lag other public sector employers in all but one of the 41 benchmark classes surveyed. These salary lags account for the total compensation lags reported in the previous chapter. As for future COLAs, 34 employers plan to give COLAs of 2 - 5 percent to managerial employees; State employees received a 5 percent general salary increase in July 2003. Next Private Sector Salaries Private sector salary data helps provide a more complete picture of the State's relative position in the labor market. While "total compensation" comparisons would be more useful, even this limited data has value. The comparisons reported in this section use the State's maximum salary for a benchmark class and the private sector median. Ordinarily, one would assume that maximum salaries should be compared to maximum salaries, and median salaries be compared to median salaries. However, in State service employees move to the top of their class salary range almost automatically as long as their performance is satisfactory. Therefore, the maximum salary represents the State's "market rate." In the private sector, there often is no maximum rate for a particular job and employees ordinarily move to the market rate, typically the median salary for the job. Accordingly, this survey compares the State's market rate (maximum salary) to the private sector market rate (median salary) to establish whether the State leads or lags the private sector. Of the 41 benchmark classes, 20 were considered to have "valid" (ie, comparable) private sector salary data, which can be summarized as follows: * Administrative and Office: Compared to the private sector, State salaries lead in each of the four general administrative occupations (accounting, budgets, personnel, and clerical); the State leads the most for the Personnel Analyst class (10 percent). The State lags in the three technical areas (auditing, legal, and information technology); The greatest lag is for Occupational Therapist (39 percent); In addition, most State employees are eligible for annual "merit salary adjustments," generally 5 percent, which are step increases within an established salary range. Employees who meet the required performance criteria receive the merit salary adjustment until they reach the top step of the range for their position. |