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| 11/22 |
| 2008/7/16-23 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:50588 Activity:moderate |
7/15 Provisions to tighten regulation over Fannie and Freddy. Whatever
happened to GWB and Reagan's FREE MARKET economy and the
new OWNERSHIP SOCIETY???
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25686589/page/2
\_ The macs are gov't partnerships with business--what has that to do
with free market?
\_ Plenty! Previous sarcastic poster, the free market/ownership
society doesn't work very well if we are in a global
depression. I think everyone recognizes this.
\_ "Everyone?" Really, even the motd.libertarians? If so,
this would be a mighty sea change. Is this true, libertarians?
\_ official libertarian nutjob position: the free market would
work perfectly in a global depression, if only the
government would stop meddling. -tom
\_ No, I think a global depression is a natural
phenomenon and a healthy thing. Why would you want to
stop it?
\_ You obviously haven't studied the 1930s where
people were starving on the streets while the
capitalists lived off of nice steaks everyday.
I wish you'd get laid off by JPL one day. Your
f***ing IT job is worthless at JPL, FYI.
fucking IT job is worthless at JPL, FYI.
\_ And how the government's random lumbering economic
policies made that very depression longer?
\_ I think monetary policy is a good thing for social
reasons but can result in a suboptimal economic
result. BTW, you have no idea what I do at JPL.
Hint: I don't work under the CIO.
I'm glad I've upset you, though. I always
wanted my own following bitch. --dim
\_ And you haven't studied the Soviet Union. This
kind of comparison is pointless and stupid.
\_ and of course it's healthy because it proves the
strength of the free market! -tom
\_ One nice thing about the free market is that
it will course correct itself. Certainly it
is preferred to a planned economy. The free
market would have never given us Iraq. It
took an inept government you trust completely
to do that kind of economic damage.
\_ "that's not starvation and famine, it's the
free market course correcting itself!" -tom
\_ Imagine if every dollar spent in Iraq
had been spent by the free market
rather than Big Government.
\_ Iraq was and is a major clusterfuck,
but that's irrelevant to the question
of whether global depression is
"healthy." Stop trying to change the
subject. -tom
\_ Actually, it's not irrelevant.
Do you trust the free market to
allocate resources or do you
trust Big Government to do so?
In the former case you sometimes
have market corrections. In the
latter case you have Iraq. Which
one results in a healthier economy
long-term? Which one is morally
superior?
\_ I believe in a mixed economy, as
do all non-whackjobs. Some things
are better allocated centrally
and some by a market system.
Morality is a pretty personal
thing, but I believe in a mixed
economy morally as well, since
both extremes cause huge amounts
of human sufferring, when tried.
\_ Your dichotomy is false. War is
not a function of "Big Government";
it's largely a function of
resources. Let's say that
current trends continue, and oil
and food prices continue to go
through the roof. Poorer countries
like those in Latin America will
be more heavily impacted than
the U.S. The real free market
solution to the problem would
be for the Latinos to move to
the wealthy U.S. The libertarian
nutjob solution is to build a
bigger wall, because "a primary
function of government is to
protect property rights."
Obviously the situation is
untenable; the "free" market
will cause a war due to resource
scarcity. Rwanda, Somalia are
not the result of Big Government.
-tom
\_ Actually, I would say their
governments are most to blame.
\_ of course you would. -tom
\_ So you blame the
citizenry? Way to go!
\_ you really enjoy
putting words in
other people's mouths,
but you're not very
good at it. -tom
\_ Look, Tom. What
other option is
there? Either
it's the fault
of the gov't or
the citizenry.
Care to name
your mysterious
3rd party? Zuul?
\_ Maybe you should put
more words into your
own mouth instead
of being so evasive.
If not the gov't or
the citizens then
who? Zuul?
I think it is primarily _/
the afteraffects of
colonialism, which for
this discussion was
perpetrated by both
government and market
actors. -!tom
\_ I would have to say colonialism is almost
exclusively perpetuated by governments.
Even the East India Company was basically a
front for government interests. However,
\- this is mostly not a meaningful
statement but is mostly wrong
before the East India Act.
\_ Well it is 100% correct
after the Act and "mostly
wrong" means "partly
right". I think it's
debatable. Certainly EIC
wasn't your basic corporation.
\- "ObLandWarAsia"
I think what you want to look
into is "mercantilism".
somewhat interesting note in re:
your somewhat humorous first
sentence: at one point coca cola
was more or less going to buy
the country formerly known as
British Honduras [slight exag-
geration ... it was pretty much
going to be privatized].
In re: below ... you may want to
read about how belgian colonialism
int the congo changed when it went
from being a personal possession
of the king to a state colony.
I think there's more blame to direct at the
current corrupt and petty governments.
I think Africa, as a whole, would
benefit more from being run by corporate
interests than corrupt governments. In
fact, corporate investment in Africa is
probably the the easiest path to salvation
probably the easiest path to salvation
just like it is in Afghanistan, Iraq,
and other troubled regions. To really
mess things up you need to get
governments involved.
governments involved. Governments are
irrational.
\_ I love this line of argument:
1) Assert that free markets produce
optimal results.
2) Conclude that anywhere sub-optimal
conditions exist, it is the fault
of the government, by point 1. QED.
Soon followed by:
3) To explain the existence of the
sub-optimal condition, reverse-
engineer an untestable hypothesis,
usually based on government's
response to the sub-optimal
condition (i.e., "we wouldn't have
gun crime if it weren't for gun
control" or "the banking crisis is
caused by FDIC insurance encouraging
banks to take more risks.")
-tom
\_ I notice you still haven't
defined your position. Why am I
not surprised.
\_ What position? I certainly
feel that someone who uses
a machete to kill a person
whose family he knows, must
be significantly culpable for
that act. -tom
\_ Governments are irrational? Only somone who
has never worked in the private sector could
say such a thing. Do you think businesses
are rational?
has never worked in the private sector
could say such a thing. Do you think
businesses are rational?
\_ Ones that manage to compete are, yes.
\_ Do you think that the military
is irrational and poorly run?
\_ It's one of the best examples
of an irrational and poorly run
government entity. |
| 11/22 |
|
| www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25686589/page/2 The Fed in June signaled an end to its nearly year long rate-cutting campaign because of growing concerns about inflation. Bernanke kept up his tough anti-inflation talk on Tuesday but stressed many other problems that could short circuit economic growth. He seemed to be keeping his options open in terms of rates. Given all the risky cross currents, economists believe the Fed will leave rates alone when they meet on Aug. "In general, healthy economic growth depends on well-functioning financial markets," Bernanke said. "Consequently, helping the financial markets to return to more normal functioning will continue to be a top priority," he said. Strengthening regulatory oversight of Fannie and Freddie, Bernanke said, is "job one." Congress is moving ahead on a broad housing rescue package that includes provisions to tighten regulation over the two companies. Bernanke said legislative efforts to help stabilize the housing market -- the biggest threat to the economy -- are of vital importance. Bernanke, in the first day of back-to-back appearances on Capitol Hill, said investors are nervous in general because of the cloudy outlook for the economy and credit conditions, feeding a vicious cycle that can be hard to break. "Many financial markets and institutions remain under considerable stress, in part because the outlook for the economy and thus for credit quality, remains uncertain." The Fannie and Freddie troubles came on the heels of the failure of IndyMac, a big bank. was inevitable," Bernanke said because the bank was weighed down by low-quality mortgages. "All banks are being challenged by credit conditions now," he said, adding that the Fed is keeping close tabs on the nation's banking sector. Earlier this year, a run on investment bank Bear Stearns pushed the company to the edge of bankruptcy and into a takeover by JPMorgan Chase, backed financially by the Fed. That prompted critics to call it a government bailout, putting taxpayers money at risk. Wholesale prices up sharply in June Bernanke defended its decisions in the cases of Bear Stearns as well as Fannie and Freddie, and rebuffed claims that the government is helping Wall Street at the expense of Main Street. If problems aren't contained, they can ripple throughout the economy, hurting everyone, he said. "Financial stability is critical to economic stability." The Fed, in new projections, now believes inflation will be higher this year than previously thought, with prices rising as high as 42 percent under one inflation measure. Growth for the year will be sluggish -- at best 16 percent growth -- but not as bad as previously forecast, helped by the government's $168 billion stimulus, including rebates. The unemployment rate, which could rise as high as 57 percent this year, is the same as earlier projections. |