Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 50530
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2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/15   

2008/7/10-13 [Reference/Tax] UID:50530 Activity:high
7/10    Prop 13 is always a big topic around here:
        "Back before Proposition 13 the revenues were cyclical, with
        years of big increases, then stagnant revenues," said Auerbach.
        'Now you get at least a small increase even when the real estate
        market slows down.'"
        \_ you only get a small increase because the amount you're getting
           is so depressed.  I'll take 5% average return over 2.2% consistent
           return any day.  -tom
           \_ Aren't you the one who wants to derive more revenues from
              property tax because it's more consistent than income tax
              and allows for better planning?
              \_ no, you must have me confused with your straw man.  -tom
                 \_ I distinctly remember someone making the argument
                    that relying on income tax revenue is bad because it
                    is not reliable. This was when I pointed out that tax
                    revenues are about the same now as they ever were.
                    Maybe there were multiple people in that thread and
                    you weren't the one to make that claim?
                    \_ it probably was a corporatist who made that argument,
                       if anyone.  The wealthy are not big fans of income
                       tax.  -tom
                       \_ So to be clear *you* support income tax as opposed to
                          property tax. Therefore, Prop 13 is great from
                          your POV as it comes closest to abolishing
                          property tax. You would support raising the income
                          tax rate if it meant abolishing property tax?
                          \_ They're different things.  Property tax is local,
                             income tax is state/federal.  If you were to
                             change property tax to local income tax, you'd
                             get landlords who live in places with no/low
                             income tax, so the city that provides the
                             services which support and protect that
                             property would have no income from it.
                             And my biggest problem with Prop 13 is
                             that it applies to corporations; there's no
                             reason corporations should get any breaks on
                             property tax.  -tom
                             \_ Ah yes, those *evil* corporations.
                             \_ my biggest gripe with prop 13 as it applies to
                                corporations is that corporate-owned property
                                rarely changes hands, making it a huge tax break
                                for them over time.   At least property owned
                                by a person is forced to change hands at the
                                end of that person's lifetime.
                                rarely changes hands, making it a huge tax
                                break for them over time.  At least property
                                owned by a person is forced to change hands
                                at the end of that person's lifetime.
                                \_ If they upgrade the property, it gets
                                   reassessed.  The corporation pays it's
                                   employees, so any tax savings the corp gets
                                   goes into personal income anyway.
                                   \_ Horse manure.  Prove it.  -tom
                                   \_ Pshaw. It goes into shareholder pockets.
                                      \_ Where it is taxed. I'm sure Tom
                                         would be fine with rents rising
                                         for poor people, though, when
                                         their landlords (often
                                         corporations) are forced to
                                         raise rents to recoup higher
                                         property taxes.
                                         \_ It's funny how this money transfer
                                            happens in only one direction.
                                            In the crazy corporatist world,
                                            lowering taxes on corporations
                                            and raising them on people is
                                            good for people, because people
                                            work for corporations so if
                                            corporations have more money
                                            they'll give it to people
                                            (despite lots of evidence to
                                            the contrary).  But lowering
                                            taxes on people and raising them
                                            on corporations is bad for
                                            corporations, because presumably
                                            the people will not use their
                                            money to buy anything that
                                            corporations make.  -tom
                                            \_ So I see you have no problem
                                               forcing the poor out of
                                               their homes.
                                               \_ uh, what?
                                                  \_ Eliminate Prop 13 on
                                                     corps. and watch
                                                     rents rise in response.
                                                     \_ whatever.
                                                        \_ As long as you
                                                           are okay with
                                                           poor people
                                                           thrown out into
                                                           the street in
                                                           the name of
                                                           higher tax revenues.
                                            \_ One problem with corp tax is it
                                               hurts the competititiveness of
                                               the company globally. Anyway,
                                               I think the FairTax would be
                                               preferable to either. There's
                                               no good way to try to separate
                                               the corp tax from individual
                                               tax, and what that balance
                                               should be. Why penalize or
                                               incentivize a corp vs. a
                                               personal business? Moving to
                                               a consumption tax fixes the
                                               problems. You tax the economy
                                               at only the one point: sale
                                               of goods and services. Then
                                               you tune the "prebate" for
                                               progressivity. And you promote
                                               saving instead of wasteful
                                               consumption. And it saves people
                                               tax prep cost, and rich people
                                               can't lawyer their way out of
                                               taxes if they buy stuff.
                                               \_ Sales tax is among the most
                                                  regressive taxes, and for
                                                  the wealthy, among the
                                                  easiest to avoid.  This
                                                  is definitely an example
                                                  of how for every complex
                                                  problem, there's a clean,
                                                  simple solution that won't
                                                  work.  -tom
                                                  \_ I like how you glibly
                                                     ignore all the details
                                                     and simply declare
                                                     a contrary view. How
                                                     do the wealthy avoid
                                                     sales tax? Are they
                                                     not going to live in
                                                     a house? Buy a car?
                                                     \_ Ignore what details?
                                                        All you've provided is
                                                        a statement of
                                                        ideology.  The wealthy
                                                        avoid sales tax by
                                                        buying stuff from other
                                                        countries.  -tom
                                                        \_ You just ignored
                                                           my house comment.
                                                           You ignored the
                                                           rebate aspect of
                                                           pro/regressivity.
                                                           Buying stuff form
                                                           other countries
                                                           doesn't avoid tax
                                                           except small scale
                                                           stuff. Look at EU:
                                                           they collect tax
                                                           on imported goods.
                                                           How do you get
                                                           "among the easiest
                                                           to avoid"? There
                                                           is no 100% anti
                                                           fraud solution
                                                           without Big Brother
                                                           tactics.
                                         \_ Trickle down economics is a
                                            crock of shit.
                                         \_ Shareholders are only taxed when
                                            they sell, and at advantages tax
                                            they sell, and at advantaged tax
                                            rates. Also, the tax basis of
                                            stock is adjusted upon the owners
                                            death, meaning that for the wealthy,
                                            it is often not taxed at all.
                                            death, meaning that for the
                                            wealthy, it is often not taxed at
                                            all.
                                            \_ Um. Shareholders are taxed
                                               when they receive the income.
                                               \_ Which income? Do you mean
                                                  capital gains? Dividends?
                                                  \_ Do you know what "income"
                                                     means? It's a pretty
                                                     well-defined term.
                                                     \_ Then you are wrong.
                                                        If I inheret GE stock
                                                        that my father bought
                                                        for $1/share and sell,
                                                        I pay no taxes on the
                                                        gain. "Income" means
                                                        \_ That's a capital
                                                           gain, which has
                                                           very little to
                                                           do with profits
                                                           (directly). Savings
                                                           from Prop 13 are
                                                           plowed into profits,
                                                           not share prices
                                                           unless you consider
                                                           something like
                                                           stock buybacks.
                        Where do you think those        _/
                        corporate profits end up?
                        Either in dividends or stock
                        price. This should be obvious.
                        Have you ever heard of
                        "retained earnings?"
                                                        a different thing to
                                                        an accountant than to
                                                        the IRS, btw. Do you
                                                        know the difference
                                                        between net income,
                                                        gross income and pro-
                                                        forma income? They
                                                        all mean different
                                                        things.
              \_ You do realize that if properties fall to a point where
                 they are below the artifically low amount they are taxed
                 for by prop 13 then you can get them reassesed and you
                 don't have to pay an extra 2% a year.  Prop 13 puts a
                 ceiling on tax rates but no floor.  So yes, the increase
                 is more perdictable but that's only because properties that
                 have been held onto are so below the inflation curve that
                 even a long period of recession isn't enough time to catch
                 up.  This Auerbach is talking nonsense.
                 \_ You mean Auerbach the LA County Assessor? I don't think
                    people generally worry about tax floors. What's the
                    tax floor for income tax?
                    \_ Tax floors would be the only reason taxes would
                       drop below current rates.  And that would happen
                       even post prop 13.  Two options, you can have
                       a random about of money between 100-200 dollars or
                       you can have 100 dollars.  Which do you pick?
                       \_ Which are you saying happens in which case? Why?
        \_ Property tax *is* a much more reliable source of revenue than
           income tax. Income tax actually goes down in a recession, while
           property tax just increases less. Pre Prop-13, property taxes
           made up a majority of the state's tax source, now it is sales
           and revenue taxes, both of which are cyclical. -!Tom
2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/15   

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