Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 50085
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ
http://csua.com/feed/
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

2008/5/29-6/1 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:50085 Activity:low
5/29    Required reading for the gay marriage debate:
  http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/till_court_do_us_part/Content?oid=287931

        Marriage is neither a religious nor a governmental construct; it is
        a *social* construct.  -tom
        \_ Okay. I don't see the difference between religious and social,
           but I can see that argument. If it's a social construct there's
           still no need for the government to be involved any more than
           there is to be involved with BFF.
        \_ There is a religious (for some) and governmental construct as well.
           The religious one doesn't matter in the debate (churches can do
           whatever they want, it doesn't effect people who aren't in the
           church, and, unlike governments, it is easy to leave a church
           you don't agree with,)  The government is no longer worried about
           enforcing the social construct. (At least not in this state.)  But
           there are plenty of legal rights that are governmental.  And yes
           the government is "by the people for the people" so is in concept
           a social contruct itself, but only so abstractly it's silly.
           \_ [thanks to whatever asshole stomped my changes]
              It's rather mystifying that you can't see the difference between
              a religious and a social construct.  Among other things,
              social constructs are observed by people of different religions,
              and non-religious people.  The terms "husband," "wife," and
              "married" confer different social status on the people holding
              them.  Married people can sleep together in their parents' house.
                     \_ Non married people can too these days.
              Married people can host Thanksgiving dinner for the family.
              Married people can both drive the rental car.  None of these
              has anything to do with religion.  For that matter, the major
              religions, including Christianity, have not traditionally
              endorsed marriage as we practice it today; traditionally, women
              were property.   -tom
              \_ Yeah, but if that was the entire debate there would be no
                 debate.  The concern right now is that marriage has benefits
                 that only the government can provide.  Gay couples should be
                 allowed those benifits as well.
                 \_ I agree.  But the government is just sanctioning a
                    construct which exists separate from the government.  -tom
                    \_ Fair.  And I do think it's strange how some people
                       seem to think the christian faiths have a monopoly
                       on marriage.
                 \_ There are "civil unions" and "domestic partners" where
                    participants can claim benefits similar to those for
                    marriages participants.
                    \_ Oh really?  Have you tried it?   -tom
                       \_ No I'm not gay.
                          \_ you don't have to be gay to try it.  You also
                             don't have to be gay to realize that only a
                             miniscule fraction of marriage rights are
                             conferred on domestic partners.  -tom
                             conferred on domestic partners.
                             And you might want to try taking your girlfriend
                             out to a fancy restaurant, getting down on one
                             knee, looking into her eyes, and saying, "Will
                             you be my domestic partner?"  Let us know
                             how that goes.  -tom
                             \_ You disagree with the majority of the CA SC.
                                They said that the domestic partnership laws
                                grant nearly all the rights of marriage.  That
                                was part of the reasoning for the ruling.
                                \_ Nearly is not all.  And those are only
                                   rights that CA can grant.  There are lots
                                   of rights that are federal.  Like say
                                   immigration, or tax law, or your status
                                   in other states.
                                   \_ tom specifically said "miniscule". -pp
                                    \_ Compared to what you get federally
                                       it is.
Cache (7660 bytes)
www.eastbayexpress.com/news/till_court_do_us_part/Content?oid=287931
E-mail story October 13, 2004 Last winter, close to four thousand gay and lesbian couples exchanged wedding vows beneath the dome of San Francisco's City Hall. Six months later, the state Supreme Court declared the marriages "void and of no legal effect." Six very different East Bay couples agreed to tell us about their lives since that remarkable Valentine's Day weekend, and their legal and emotional roller-coaster ride as the first people in American history to be married, and then involuntarily unmarried by the courts. Times in which bureaucracies and politicians debate how and whether to recognize their bonds - and in which a lack of recognition brings serious consequences. Some of their legal conundrums could be clarified in January, when state bill AB205, now under challenge in the courts, is slated to take effect. The new law would give California domestic partners the same rights as married straight couples, including rights to child custody, child support, and extended family leave. But gay couples are still excluded from the 1,049 specific rights granted to legally married couples by the federal government, which controls Social Security, Medicare, inheritance rights, and immigration, among other things. With voters in eleven states weighing in next month on proposed state amendments banning same-sex marriage - Louisiana and Missouri have already passed such prohibitions - and President Bush calling for a federal constitutional amendment, the future of rights and recognition for gay unions is anything but certain. In the meantime, twelve complicated East Bay lives roll forward. f19c79d5-isl Johnny & William Johnny Symons, 38, documentary filmmaker William Rogers, 39, senior programs director Kids: Zachary, 5, and Kenyon, 3 Years Together: 11 The Oakland couple adopted their sons, biological brothers, from California's foster care system. Although they'd registered as domestic partners, between caring for two children and being, as Johnny puts it, "kind of ceremony-averse," they had never held a public celebration of their union. Johnny: Suddenly one day the opportunity presents itself to get married and it was this now or never thing, and we just jumped at the chance. I started frantically calling City Hall -- are you guys really issuing same-sex marriage licenses today? All the lines were jammed, there was no information available. I know they close the doors at four o'clock, it's Friday, it's a three-day weekend -- chances are really good the court is going to slam the door on this when the doors open Tuesday morning. If we're ever going to do this, this is our little window of opportunity. William: I was at work and Johnny called me up and he says, "Hey, will you marry me?" And I said, "You know what -- I'm on the other line, let me call you back." Then I called him back and I'm like, "Now, what is this?" William: I didn't take it very seriously because I felt like, look, we had been together for eleven years, we own a house, we have two children. It didn't feel like there was anything else I could do that would make me feel like we were a more legitimate family. At that moment I felt like it was more of a political act. It was an important thing to do, to show up to this event. So we grabbed the kids out of school, we zipped across the bridge. We go up to City Hall and we were in line for four and a half hours. Johnny: I think we had brought diapers with us, thank God, but that was about it. There were cameras everywhere, and you could see people jubilantly emerging from the recorder's office and going up to have their ceremonies under the rotunda. So suddenly we're standing there in the rotunda and the kids are around us and some of our friends are there and we're repeating these vows. The whole thing had been such a whirlwind and so exhausting and frantic, but it all fell away in that moment. We were holding hands and looking into each other's eyes and repeating these vows, and it was intense. It was weird because up until that point I'd been like, this is an important political statement, blah blah blah. It wasn't until I said the vows that I just felt this rush of tears. I've always had the attitude of like, "fuck you, you don't have to legitimize my relationship -- I'll have my relationship, I'll have my children, and I will live my life." But once I got married, it was this amazing feeling of belonging in a way that I never thought I could belong to the larger culture. My whole life has been in some ways about not quite fitting into the larger culture, whether it's racially, or my family structure. I'm biracial, half white and half black -- I lived in the African-American community almost my entire life, and I was always really clear that my mother's white parents did not approve of my parents' relationship. I often walk a tenuous line between society's perceptions of black and white in the same way I now walk that line about what makes a family. William:Shortly after we got married, we had a play date with one of Zach's friends who said, "I heard you got married." And I looked over at Zach and his shoulders sort of shrunk a little bit and his head sort of went down. I turned to this little boy and I said, "That's right, we are married just like your mom and dad are married." And I could see out of the corner of my eye Zach's shoulders, he was sort of sitting up straight and he was like, "Yeah!" For the first time I realized that our children deserve to have their parents be married if that's what their parents choose. William: Because ultimately, if we are put on the fringe, so are our children. Johnny: I've really gotten into using the word "husband." Like, our insurance is based on the idea that we are two unmarried male drivers under forty. So I called up the insurance company and talked to the agent and she took $250 off of our policy. Thinking Outside the Cell For decades, the scientific establishment ignored Mina Bissell. Now her insights could revolutionize how cancer is understood and treated. Proposed Budget to Gut East-Asian Languages at Cal East Asia is rising, and 45 percent of Cal's students are ethnically Asian, but the study of East Asian languages is imperiled. Wild Salmon Supporters Urge You to Boycott Farmed Fish At SalmonAid, a gathering to eulogize the disappearance of Pacific Salmon, supporters hope to change people's consumption habits. Only Communal Action Can Solve Global Warming Our focus must remain not on "What Can I Do as One Person?" but rather on the tougher question of "What Can We Do as One People?" Election Season Brings out the Best in People Plus, Dellums mentions taxes as way to pay for more cops, cops confiscate a fortune in Prada, and AC Transit driver wins national "roadeo." Proposed Budget to Gut East-Asian Languages at Cal East Asia is rising, and 45 percent of Cal's students are ethnically Asian, but the study of East Asian languages is imperiled. Wild Salmon Supporters Urge You to Boycott Farmed Fish At SalmonAid, a gathering to eulogize the disappearance of Pacific Salmon, supporters hope to change people's consumption habits. When Love is Not Enough Some traumatized orphans have brain damage that affection alone can't heal. So therapists are seeking new ways to simulate the nurturing they didn't get. Young, Asian American, and Christian UC Berkeley is home to some of the brightest young minds in the country. And many of them are increasingly drawn to evangelical Christianity. When Love is Not Enough Some traumatized orphans have brain damage that affection alone can't heal. So therapists are seeking new ways to simulate the nurturing they didn't get.