5/16    Planned free public transit day on June 19, 2008:
        http://www.sparetheair.org
        \_ Except BART.
           \_ Where's it say that?
              \_ Sorry, no free rides on spare the air day (March 15th).
                 My bad...
                 \_ You meant May 15th (and 16th), right?
        \_ ^free^taxpayer funded
           \_ Is there any kind of "free" that's not funded by someone /
              something?
              \_ Free as in freedom?
                 \_ "Free" in the sense that the first reply was saying it
                    wasn't "free".
                    \_ Yes.  But in this case, no.  The government can not
                       give anyone anything for free in the real sense of the
                       word because the government produces nothing.  The
                       government, on a good day, only transfer wealth from
                       producers to non-producers.  On a typical day, the
                       government destroys a good portion of that wealth along
                       the way.  On a bad day, the government flat out
                       destroys wealth or prevents the creation of wealth.
                        \_ You should move somewhere nice, like Iraq.
                           \_ You should actually read what I said before
                              snapping off a brainless one liner.
                       \_ So why don't anarchies like Somalia have the
                          world's best economies?
                          \_ Because no one is advocating anarchy.  The
                             government has a role collecting taxes to raise
                             a common defense, building roads/bridges and
                             other infrastructure projects.  The government
                             has no business taking from one group of people
                             to benefit another group to empower themselves
                             at the ballot box.  The government does not create
                             wealth.  The government can enable/assist others
                             to do by so building infrastructure or destroy
                             wealth creation through taxation and regulations.
                             \_ Some regulations are good of course. E.g. to
                                protect common resources like air quality, to
                                prevent fraud, or prevent cabals/monopolies
                                from screwing people.
                             \_ But the govt is taking from one group
                                (taxpayers) to build toll-free highways to
                                benefit another group (drivers).
                                \_ What % of taxpayers drive? Honest question.
                             \_ "The government does not create wealth" is
                                a completely meaningless statement.  Want to
                                \_ It's not meaningless, it's false.  Learn the
                                   difference. -- ilyas
                                know the #1 employer in California?  UC.
                                UC also does more research and invents more
                                things than any company in California.
                                Unless your definition of "creating wealth"
                                is limited to "giving money to the CEO",
                                it is obvious that the government can and
                                does create wealth.  -tom
                                \_ So UC is the #1 employeer. So what? Its
                                   not like UC is self-sustaining - w/o tax
                                   revenues, government, including UC, can't
                                   operate. When the government starts making
                                   a profit independent of tax revenue and
                                   starts sharing that profit with the people,
                                   then one can say that government has
                                   created wealth. Since that day will almost
                                   certainly never come, government cannot
                                   create wealth.
                                   \_ I was going to respond to this, but
                                      it's simply too stupid.  But here's
                                      a hint: wealth takes forms other than
                                      cash.  -tom
                                   \_ I'm not pro-socialism but this is not
                                      accurate. In the simplest case, if the
                                      state owns a mine and operates it then
                                      technically it creates wealth. Maybe
                                      you should define "create wealth".
                                      \_ Well my definition is pretty simple:
                                         wealth is created when an operation
                                         is able to repay its creditors, cover
                                         its operational expenses, and still
                                         has money left over that can be
                                         distributed to its members/investors.
                                         Can government run its operations
                                         such that repays its creditors (the
                                         taxpayers), covers its operational
                                         expenses, and then still has money
                                         left over that can be distributed
                                         to the taxpayers?
                                         I can agree that parts of the
                                         government can create wealth under
                                         this standard (e.g. the USPTO or a
                                         mine in your example), but as a whole,
                                         government cannot create wealth. There
                                         is no incentive for it to create
                                         wealth and most of its operations are
                                         not designed for wealth creation (I
                                         suppose if our government started to
                                         follow the British colonial model and
                                         plundered from the places it invades,
                                         then our government could generate
                                         wealth, but I hope this is not where
                                         we are headed).
                                         Perhaps tom is right that government
                                         can create wealth in non-quantifiable
                                         ways. But, that kind of "wealth,"
                                         unlike dollars, euros, &c. can't be
                                         used to better your life independent
                                         of location, so I don't think it
                                         counts.
                                         \_ It's obvious that education
                                            hasn't bettered your life.  -tom
                                            \_ Actually my UC engineering
                                               degree was quite worthless.
                                               Mostly the moderate financial
                                               success I have had was due to
                                               things I did outside of my ug
                                               education along with private
                                               professional school. And the
                                               cost of my ug degree was more
                                               than paid for by my tuition
                                               and the taxes I and my parents
                                               have paid over the years.
                                               \_ yes, but some people make
                                                  it through Cal and actually
                                                  are not complete morons
                                                  afterwards.  Sorry you
                                                  couldn't manage it.  -tom
              \_ Yes. For instance sea water is free.
                 \_ Sure.  "Planned free sea water day on June 19, 2008!"
                    \_ "All you can drink!"