Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 49791
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2008/4/21-5/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:49791 Activity:kinda low
4/19    Israel's dilemma
        http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/israel
        \_ I'm sympathetic to Isreal's plight, but that's a horrid fairly one
           sided article.
           \_ In which ways is it one-sided?
           \_ On who's side is it?
        \_ Carter has already done more for peace in the Middle East in two
           weeks than Bush has in two terms in office:
           http://www.csua.org/u/lbm (NYT)
           \_ It's hard to argue with your assertion, but the accomplishment
              cited here has already been contradicted:
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359661.stm
           \_ I totally agree, Bush has really screwed things up, but he can't
              hold a candle to Carter.
           \_ You're nuts.  The kind of peace where Israel pulls back to the
              1967 borders and gives 10 years for Hamas to build up in exchange
              for nothing?  It's suicidal.  Is this a troll?
              \_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Automatically,
                 without question. Oddly enough, I think that you are more
                 likely to come to peace with someone you are negotiating with
                 than someone you are shooting at. I don't think for a second
                 that Israel will (or should) agree to all of Hamas' terms,
                 but I do think that if they don't start talking, there will
                 never be peace.
              \_ Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
                 Automatically, without question. Oddly enough, I think that
                 you are more likely to come to peace with someone you are
                 negotiating with than someone you are shooting at. I don't
                 think for a second that Israel will (or should) agree to all
                 of Hamas' terms, but I do think that if they don't start
                 talking, there will never be peace.
                 \_ Do you have any idea what Hamas is talking about or any
                    knowledge of the history of the region, Hamas, or anything
                    else going on?  Have you read the Hamas charter?  No.
                    Here: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
                    When Hamas stops *firing rockets in Israel almost every
                    day!* there might be something to talk about.  Until that
                    time they are at war with Israel who they don't even
                    acknowledge the legitimate existence of and have made very
                    clear very loudly their only goal is Israel's destruction.
                    There is no compromising with someone whose only reason
                    for being is your death.  You can't be a "little bit" dead.
                    Maybe you're not a troll, just naive.
                    \_ You don't have to negotiate for peace with your friends,
                       only those you are at war with. You seem to forget this
                       basic fact. History is full of examples of hostile
                       neighbors full of angry rhetoric eventually getting
                       tired of fighting and then making peace. Why are these
                       two any different?
                       \_ Well, one side obviously isn't tired of it yet, for
                          one thing.
                       \_ Very uplifting.  Now go read some real history.  Far
                          more conflicts have been resolved with the Rome vs.
                          Carthage model than the "We got tired of killing
                          your civilians with daily rocket attacks from our
                          side of the border, we're going to give up our holy
                          quest to kill you all and throw a tea and crumpets
                          party for you, our new friends and neighbors, peace
                          be unto you, brothers!"  Negotiated peace only comes
                          when at least one side has been defeated and is
                          unwilling or unable to continue fighting.  Until
                          then there is nothing to talk about.
                          \_ Who lost in the Catholic vs. Protestant wars in
                             Northern Ireland?
                             \_ You mean the modern version with the IRA, bombs
                                etc?  Everyone lost.  The English were
                                unwilling to apply the force required to win
                                a military victory, didn't want or consider
                                a heart and minds conversion, and both sides
                                lost a number of people for no real purpose.
                                This has exactly what to do with trying to
                                talk with psychotics like Hamas?  Nothing.
                                Go read Hamas' charter and come back if you're
                                serious about discussing this further.
                                \_ Hamas is no nuttier than the Real IRA.
                                   \_ That's an opinion.  Factually incorrect,
                                      but no one can stop you from believing
                                      things that aren't true.  Have at it.
                                      The "Real IRA" stopped blowing things up
                                      after the English left them alone.  When
                                      Israel steps back, Hamas just moves
                                      closer so they can fire rockets further
                                      into Israel.  If it was San Francisco
                                      getting shelled every day (or whatever
                                      town you live in), you'd be screaming
                                      the loudest how "We have to kill them
                                      all and why hasn't the incompetent BUSH
                                      admin stopped the bad guys yet?!"
                                      \_ Israel has never, ever stepped back.
                                      \_ The Real IRA has not given up and
                                         in fact, continues to operate:
                                         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
                                         You certainly have strong opinions for
                                         one so lightly informed.
                                         \_ Did you read your own link?  The
                                            so called Real IRA is dead.  There
                                            is more Real Crime in LA every
                                            day than these goofballs have
                                            managed since their founding in 97.
                                \_ Which side is unwilling to negotiate?
                                   http://www.csua.org/u/lch (Yahoo News)
                                   \_ We've seen this one before. "We would
                                      like to kill you, would you please open
                                      the gate?"
                                   \_ Wow, you are incredibly naive.  "We need
                                      6 months to rearm for the next round of
                                      attacks.  We'll stop attacking you for
                                      those 6 months if you let us bring in
                                      more weapons".  You can't possibly be
                                      this dumb.  Thus, I label you: troll.
                                      You still clearly haven't read the Hamas
                                      charter, either.  You won't make it more
                                      than a few paragraphs in before your
                                      eyes glaze at the insanity and seething
                                      hatred.
                                      \_ I read about half of it. I will finish
                                         the rest later. It is full of a bunch
                                         of religious mumbo-jumbo.
                                         of religious mumbo-jumbo. Unlike you,
                                         I have actually been to Jerusalem, the
                                         West Bank and Gaza, so it is kind of
                                         amusing that you bounce back and forth
                                         between calling me ignorant and a
                                         troll. Perhaps I am as informed as you
                                         and just disagree.
                                         \_ I'm stunned that you think putting
                                            a maple leaf on your hawaiian
                                            tshirt during your weekend
                                            excursion to the region makes you
                                            an expert.  You would have been
                                            better off if you said you saw
                                            something on the history channel.
                                            \_ I saw it on the History Channel
2025/04/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/israel
com banner May 2008 Atlantic Monthly The rift between a beleaguered prime minister and a grieving novelist mirrors the division confounding Israel. Can the two men overcome the differences that separate them? Can Israel overcome its paralysis to make the hard choice necessary for its survival as a Jewish democracy? Flashbacks: Prophesying Palestine Jeffrey Goldberg looks back at a mixed bag of Atlantic predictions from the 1920s and '30s about prospects for a Jewish homeland. In early August of 2006, four weeks after the Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah, which has as its goal the physical elimination of Israel (and the ancillary ambition of murdering, whenever practicable, Jews elsewhere in the world), killed three Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two more in a cross-border raid, Israel found itself in an exceedingly disagreeable position. 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These rocket attacks had killed dozens of Israelis--Arab Israelis included--and had made the Galilee largely uninhabitable. Thousands of Israelis became refugees in their own country, fleeing south in search of shelter. On August 9, Olmert's cabinet authorized a full-scale ground invasion. Israeli troops were already operating inside Lebanon, but in relatively modest numbers. The generals believed that an armored sweep across southern Lebanon could at least push Hezbollah's rocket teams back to the Litani River, well away from the Israeli border. At the outset of the conflict, in July, Israelis had stood united with Olmert against Hezbollah. Israel's endless confrontation with the Palestinians is shaded with ambiguities; many Israelis wish to see a Palestinian state come into being in the West Bank and in Gaza, even as they doubt that such a state would bring an end to terrorism. 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Autos Carter Says Hamas and Syria Are Open to Peace Tara Todras-Whitehill/Associated Press Former President Jimmy Carter spoke at the Israeli Council of Foreign Relations in Jerusalem on Monday. Video Video Report Mr Carter, who spoke in Jerusalem after several days of talks in the Syrian capital, Damascus, said he had extracted from Hamas a promise to respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip if it were ratified by a referendum of the Palestinian people. He said further that Syria believed "about 85 percent" of the issues between it and Israel had been resolved in prior negotiations and it wanted a peace deal "as soon as possible." Palestinian Authority yet currently ruling in the Gaza Strip, would not disrupt the negotiations or implementation of any accord if the Palestinian people supported it in a free vote. In a subsequent interview with The New York Times, Mr Carter struck a more cautious note, saying, "I'm not claiming it's a breakthrough." He added, "I don't have any control over whether or not Hamas does what they tell me. Israeli officials opposed Mr Carter's meetings with Hamas leaders, saying doing so legitimizes a group they consider to be a terrorist organization. But Mr Carter said on Monday, "The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria. The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet these people." Mr Carter said in the interview that he understood that only those Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip would participate and that the voting would be monitored by international observers, including observers from the Carter Center. Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader in Damascus with whom Mr Carter had spoken, gave a televised news conference late Monday and said that Hamas wants all Palestinians, including those living abroad, to vote. Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan would likely insist on a right of return to their original homes in what is today Israel, something Israel has said it could never accept. Mr Meshal also focused on the return of Palestinians to Israel and Hamas's refusal to accept Israel's legitimacy when he said, "Hamas accepts the establishment of an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital and with full and real sovereignty and full application of the right of the Palestinian refugees to return but Hamas will not recognize the state of Israel." Palestine Liberation Organization, from which Hamas is excluded, was "reformed" to include it. Mr Carter had tried to get Hamas to agree to several other requests and all were turned down. Those included a prisoner exchange and declaring a 30-day unilateral cease-fire with Israel -- Hamas fires rockets on Israeli towns and communities in an effort to hurt and kill civilians. On Monday a 4-year-old child was injured from shrapnel after a rocket hit a home on a kibbutz and caused damage, the Israeli army announced. Mr Meshal said at his news conference that, through Egypt, he and Israel were working on a possible mutual cease-fire or period of calm so there was no reason to accept Mr Carter's suggestion of a unilateral cease-fire. Mr Carter said he found the Hamas leadership, including Mr Meshal, to be clear-thinking, educated people who gave no sign of fanaticism, although he did condemn in harsh terms their use of violence. He said they did not break for prayer, talk of holy land or God. "They are just as rational as you are," he said, adding, "The thing that Meshal and I have is that we are both physicists." Mr Carter also said that while he was snubbed by the Israeli leadership over his talks with Hamas, he believes it was due to American pressure that meetings between him and top Israeli leaders were canceled. In the interview, Mr Carter said that what he learned about Syrian intentions toward Israel may prove more significant than the Hamas agreement. He said that Mr Assad believes there are only a few details left to work out on a full peace treaty but that the Bush administration is discouraging Israel to proceed because of other concerns, especially related to Iraq, that the Americans have with Syria. "All of our group were surprisingly impressed with his strength and knowledge of the details in contrast to what we had heard from propaganda," Mr Carter said of the Syrian president. He emphasized that for Syria, a deal with Israel has to be brokered by the United States to be meaningful. While Mr Assad has an alliance with Iran, Mr Carter believes that the relationship is as an alternative to one with the United States and the West, rather than his first choice. He said he expected Mr Assad would be willing to separate from that alliance because he wants full peace with Israel. "He's willing to put his eggs in that basket of peace with Israel, no matter what Iran thinks," Mr Carter said in the interview of Mr Assad. Taghreed al-Khodari contributed additional reporting from Gaza. Tips To find reference information about the words used in this article, double-click on any word, phrase or name. A new window will open with a dictionary definition or encyclopedia entry. Timothy Egan's Outposts Advertisements In a world of second opinions, get the facts first. Complete coverage of Awards season All the news that's fit to personalize.
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Printable version Hamas rejects Israeli recognition Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal in Damascus, 21/04/08 Khaled Meshaal said Hamas was prepared to offer a 10-year truce Palestinian militant group Hamas will not recognise Israel, its political leader Khaled Meshaal has insisted. He was responding to comments by former US President Jimmy Carter, following their talks in Syria at the weekend. Mr Meshaal said Hamas agreed to a Palestinian state on the land in east Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza that Israel captured in the 1967 war. Mr Carter had said Hamas was prepared to accept the right of Israel to "live as a neighbour next door in peace". Actions speak louder than words White House spokeswoman Speaking in Syria, where he lives in exile, Khaled Meshaal said the Palestinian state must have "Jerusalem as its capital, with genuine sovereignty, without settlements". He added that this did not mean recognising Israel, but he said: "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as an alternative to recognition." The United States said Mr Meshaal's comments did not amount to a change of position by Hamas. In any case, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said, "actions speak louder than words". Many Israelis and their allies do not believe Hamas' offer of a truce, says the BBC's Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen. They cite the Hamas charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel and the creation of an Islamic state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Jimmy Carter describes his talks with Hamas In a speech in the city, Mr Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking had "regressed" since the US hosted Middle East talks in November at Annapolis. "The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved," he told the Israel Council on Foreign Relations. Israel, the US and the European Union regard Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, as a terrorist organisation. Asked how progress could be made given Israeli views of Hamas, Mr Carter said in an interview with the BBC's Newsnight that the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) had been classified as a terrorist organisation before becoming a negotiator for peace. "I think that there is always a chance to change the characterisation of dissident or rebel groups and my hope is that this brief encounter with them will lead to that conclusion," he said. Captured soldier Mr Carter also said the release of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, captured by Hamas and other militant groups during a raid into Israel two years ago, was being held up by the lack of direct communication between Israel and Hamas. Mr Carter said the difficulty was in agreeing the identity of the Palestinian prisoners to be released in return. He said Egyptian officials had told him that Israel had agreed to release 1,000 prisoners but accepted only 71 names on a list of hundreds of prisoners submitted by Hamas. Khaled Meshaal told reporters on Monday that Hamas had agreed to pass a message from Corp Shalit to his family. Meanwhile, the Israeli army has launched a formal investigation into the death of a Reuters cameraman killed in the Gaza Strip last week. And two Palestinians died in Israeli air strikes in the territory on Monday: one person in the southern city of Rafah and a Hamas militant at Beit Hanoun, a border town from where rockets are often fired at Israel. Advertise with us BBC MMVIII The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites. This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
Irish republicanism and opposes any political settlement that falls short of Irish unity and independence. The RIRA adopts similar tactics to those used by the Provisional IRA in the 1990s, primarily using bombs in town centres to damage the economic infrastructure of Northern Ireland. Despite these attacks the RIRA lacked a significant base and was heavily infiltrated by informers. Martin Mansergh held a meeting with McKevitt in Dundalk, in an attempt to convince McKevitt to disband the RIRA. Northern Ireland Executive, and stated "Once again, glaigh na hireann declares the right of the Irish people to the ownership of Ireland. In December a six day security operation ended when a 70 lb bomb found under railway tracks at Killeen Bridge near Newry was successfully defused. edit Arrests Despite the RIRA's renewed activity, the organisation became increasingly weaker due to the arrest of key members and continued infiltration by informers. edit Subsequent activities Since McKevitt's imprisonment, the RIRA has regrouped and continues to be active in the UK and the Republic of Ireland. In July 2000 the RIRA attempted to smuggle a second consignment of arms which was seized by Croatian police.
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AP Report: Hamas proposes 6-month cease-fire with Israel Thu Apr 24, 6:26 PM ET CAIRO, Egypt - Egypt's state run news agency says Hamas is proposing a six-month cease-fire with Israel if the Jewish state would agree to simultaneously lift its blockade of Gaza. L3/B=I_cpBNGDJHg-/J=1209104193567760/A=4919452/R=0/* The MENA agency says the offer came Thursday after a full day of closed-door meetings between an Egyptian mediator and key Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar. But any agreement still appears distant because the violent Islamic group is demanding Israel open its border crossings. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Hamas Charter (1988) The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) "In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress." Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others. Introduction Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; In the midst of misadventure, from the depth of suffering, from the believing hearts and purified arms; aware of our duty and in response to the decree of Allah, we direct our call, we rally together and join each other. We educate in the path of Allah and we make our firm determination prevail so as to take its proper role in life, to overcome all difficulties and to cross all hurdles. Thus, our nucleus has formed which chartered its way in the tempestuous ocean of creeds and hopes, desires and wishes, dangers and difficulties, setbacks and challenges, both internal and external. When the thought matured, the seed grew and the plant took root in the land of reality, detached from temporary emotion and unwelcome haste, the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah's prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! Part I - Knowing the Movement Article One: The Ideological Aspects The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society, jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of life. Article Four The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Article Five: Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Constitution. Its special dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens. Article Six: Peculiarity and Independence The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights. In the absence of Islam, conflict arises, oppression reigns, corruption is rampant and struggles and wars prevail. Allah had inspired the Muslim poet, Muhammad Iqbal, when he said: When the Faith wanes, there is no security There is no this-worldliness for those who have no faith Those who wish to live their life without religion Have made annihilation the equivalent of life. Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its objectives. It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded, evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position. Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to the soul than the impact of an Indian sword. "And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim). Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief. Part II - Objectives Article Nine: Motives and Objectives Hamas finds itself at a period of time when Islam has waned away from the reality of life. For this reason, the checks and balances have been upset, concepts have become confused, and values have been transformed; evil has prevailed, oppression and obscurity h...