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| 5/17 |
| 2008/4/16-23 [Finance/Banking, Finance/Investment] UID:49765 Activity:high |
4/16 You thought gasoline was expensive now? You ain't seen nothing yet!
link:www.csua.org/u/las (Yahoo Finance, includes video)
\_ The free market will solve our energy crisis -dimwit #1 fan
\_ PEAK OIL alert. Also 'rationing by price' -- gotta love it.
\_ If the govt doesn't step in and do rationing, rationing by price
is how the market would do it.
\_ How many of you recall the gas lines of the 70s? Without
rationing by price we'll have lines *and* expensive gas, if
you can get it. Or oh hey we can do that whole even/odd
numbered plate thing again, yeah that was great. And don't
forget to ticket/fine/arrest any private citizen who dares
to give gas to anyone on the side of the road who runs out,
that was good for a laugh back then too.
\_ Dld that latter actually ever happen? I lived through
this, though I was quite young, but I don't remember
anything like that.
\_ Huh? What's wrong with 'rationing by price?' That's what the
market is FOR.
\_ Because when you ration nesseccities by price poor people
die. Old people die all the time in cold climates because
they can't afford heating oil.
\_ So how do you determine how much food/oil/whatever is
necessary and how much is beyond necessary? If you are
concerned about the poor then give them $$$ and let
them choose where to spend the $$$. That's still
rationing by price. I disagree with the idea that
every American should get a similar bundle of goods
that is "necessary".
\_ that's because you're an overprivileged twerp
\_ I forgot that you know what's best for people
more than they do. It's the leftist way to
boss people around.
\_ How do you "know" that freezing to death is
what is best for someone? Did they tell you
that?
\_ Can you read? "let them choose where to
spend the $$$" -!pp
\_ Nonono, the soviet style command economy
is clearly superior to western style
economics.
\_ We actually live in a mixed economy.
But you probably already know that.
\_ Sorry, missed that.
\_ Being able to survive a cold winter is pretty high
on the list.
\_ Some people have more tolerance for cold and
would prefer to spend the heating oil credit on
something more important to them like strippers
or booze or HDTV or whatever.
\_ Just wear a jacket at home. That's how I save on
gas bill.
\_ Cause where you live it regularly gets below 0F
\_ No, sorry. Government rationing will cause even worse
shortages and hurt even more people. Where do you
central control command economy guys get the idea the
government can actually make anything better? With gvt
imposed rationing you'll get a Soviet style system where
the rich and powerful get everything and the poor and
middle classes get nothing.
\_ And with no regulation, you get booms and panics
like in the 1880s. Why argue against the Straw Man
of a Soviet economy? Is your position so weak that
can't make your point any other way? Is there more
or less wealth inequality in Sweden or the US?
\_ A system in which everyone is equally poor is
a possible result and that wouldn't be a good
system. We can see examples of that in the China
of a couple decades ago, Soviet Russia, Cuba,
and so on. I don't think it matters how much of
the pie you get if it's a big enough pie. Everyone
sharing a small pie isn't a great alternative.
\_ That may be true, but it's a well known
psychological finding that people (a) care about
relative equality and (b) care specifically
about inequality of transferable assets, much
more so than other, much more 'unfair' and
blatant kinds of inequality. (There are some
interesting theories about how our attitudes about
fairness may have evolved which explain (a) and
(b)). -- ilyas
\_ I think most people in the USA don't care
or there would have been riots already. I
think people here assume (correctly) that
a rising tide lifts all boats. A wealthy,
powerful USA is something most Americans
desire and so far it has made us by far
the largest consumers in the world.
\_ Funny you should claim that right now.
Here is a front page article from the WSJ
that argues otherwise:
http://www.csua.org/u/lbj (WSJ)
(The rising boats opinion, not the
wealthy powerful America comment.)
\_ Do you think that people in Sweden, Denmark, The
Netherlands, etc are "poor"? Do you think that they
think of themselves as poor? The countries are
much more egalitarian than the US and people are
in general happier. And no one goes hungry or lacks
for housing or medical care.
Netherlands, etc are "poor"? Do you think that
they think of themselves as poor? The countries
are much more egalitarian than the US and people
are in general happier. And no one goes hungry or
lacks for housing or medical care.
\_ The Netherlands is a wealthy nation, but the
individuals are poor by American standards.
I say this as someone with a Dutch mother
and most of my family still living in Holland.
Sure, they aren't lacking in necessities.
On the other hand, they don't have any of the
luxuries people here have. I wouldn't eagerly
live their lifestyle nor that of my godfather's
Swedish ex-wife. Of course, someone who is
homeless would disagree. However, I think
overall the middle class in the USA is better
off than the middle class there. The rich are
rich both places. GDP per capita US is #2
in the world behind Luxembourg. Holland is
#16. Sweden is #25. I think our system,
while "unequal" benefits the citizenry more
than any other even though it's not "fair".
\_ But don't Dutch people consistently have
a higher "happiness" rating than Americans?
Food for thought. I believe Switzerland
comes out on top in that list, although
America is pretty high at number 20.
\_ Happiness can be acheieved with drugs.
It's not really something I aspire
to. YMMV.
\_ -1 to you, +1 to me.
\_ I am just saying that happiness is
a state of mind. I wouldn't
want to live in Third World
conditions just because the
people that do claim they are
happy about it.
\_ You were doing so good there for
a while too, after you dropped
the "a slightest bit of tax
increase is exactly equal to
Stalinism" line of argument, too.
Though you may in fact be
Stalinism" line of argument,
too. Though you may in fact be
another person, since your tone
is so different. But do you
really think that Swedes live
in "Third World" conditions? I
do not. The Dutch seem to have
quite pleasant lives and I have
been there many times. What you
say about the relative prosperity
of the middle class is no doubt
true, but all that junk that
Americans have doesn't seem to
improve their lives any.
say about the relative
prosperity of the middle class
is no doubt true, but all that
junk that Americans have
doesn't seem to improve their
lives any.
\_ That's pretty paternalistic.
-- ilyas
\_ I am one of those liberal
elitists you keep hearing
about.
\_ Good luck in the next
election! People LOVE
elitists!
\_ I am not running for
office.
\_ There may not be much of an oil trading system left by 2020 since
the "global economy" might be totally wrecked by nonstop warfare.
\_ Nonstop warfare? Caused by what? And fighting over what?
\_ Time to get a high gas mileage vehicle before manufacturers put an
SUV-like premium on them.
\_ Haven't they already?
\_ Yes on the hybrid ones, not yet on the regular engine ones.
\_ Get a bike as well! |
| 5/17 |
|
| www.csua.org/u/lbj -> online.wsj.com/article/SB120856310119627911.html MORE PAGE ONE Trapped in the Middle The incomes of most Americans have stalled. For a growing number of middle-class Americans, the answer is "No." Here and elsewhere, middle-class earnings aren't keeping up with the cost of living. Rising gasoline and food prices, health bills, child-care and education costs are leaving less to set aside for retirement. With the housing market in turmoil, even the asset many had come to count on -- the value of their homes -- is threatened. It isn't just a reflection of the current economic slowdown and rise in commodity prices: Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for several years. The well-heeled keep doing better, with the wealthiest 1% of US families garnering the largest share of income since 1929. "This is a squeezing-down cycle, and people are trying to hang on," says Randy Riggs, pastor at First Presbyterian Church in this city in the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch Country. "Five years ago, I had these visions of what the church could do and hoped to raise funds to do so. Mr Riggs says he recently tabled a project to renovate the church's chapel because he sensed he couldn't raise enough money. Middle-class angst is front-and-center in Tuesday's Democratic showdown in Pennsylvania between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. The two have been crisscrossing the state, making stops at breweries and a biofuel firm, a chocolate factory and churches. Obama will be stopping at the Lancaster Rail Station on a "whistle-stop" tour that will take him from the Philadelphia suburbs to Harrisburg. Both candidates have been repeating a simple theme: Elect me and I will revive the fortunes of the American middle class. Both Democrats offer similar prescriptions: tax cuts that would total about $1,000 per family; an overhaul of the health-care system to cover millions of people who are uninsured; aid to homeowners to reduce foreclosures and stricter enforcement of trade agreements. To help pay for the changes, they'd let President Bush's tax cuts for more-affluent Americans expire. Middle-class Americans in Lancaster are asking themselves if they're better off now than eight years ago. John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee who preaches small government and self reliance, also hasn't ignored middle-class worries. He has proposed a gas-tax "holiday" for the busy summer driving season, steps to ease the mortgage crisis and more than $200 billion a year in new tax reductions. These include the elimination of the alternative minimum tax -- which he called a "middle-class tax cut," though it would help the wealthy as well. In Lancaster County, long a Republican stronghold, the Democratic Party has been making inroads as the economy has become a more pressing issue. From January through March, there were 4,202 new voter-registration applications for the Democratic Party, compared to 1,952 new Republican voters and 955 with no party affiliation, according to county election data. Among registered Democrats in Central Pennsylvania, an area that includes Lancaster, Sen. Clinton was ahead in a recent Quinnipiac University poll, with 48% of respondents saying they support her, compared to 41% for Sen. Obama The latest statewide polls suggest the race is tightening, but that Sen. Clinton is still ahead by a handful of percentage points. Nationally, the average of polls over the last two weeks shows Sen. Democrats' message about middle-class woes resonates with 58-year-old Joyce Richards. Thanks to her husband's pension, she is now comfortably retired and works a few days a week at a bakery. But she worries about her son, who owns a local chimney-cleaning company and has two sons of his own. "Middle class families are becoming poor families and poor families are going into total poverty and it's really a shame," she says. Ms Richards, a lifelong Democrat, hasn't yet made up her mind about who she's voting for in Tuesday's primary. She says either candidate "would be better for the middle class" than a Republican. An Uneven Prosperity About 60 miles west of Philadelphia, Lancaster's location and ample farmland made it first a booming agriculture center and by the late 19th century, thanks to its rail lines, a manufacturing hub. Farming and factories have been eclipsed by an expanding service economy and a fast-growing retirement community. Lancaster General Hospital is now the largest employer in this metropolitan area of about half a million people. For many here, as in the rest of the country, paying the bills has become harder since 2000. Though incomes in Lancaster are ahead of the national average, their rate of decline mirrors -- and even exceeds -- declines across the US Nationally, median household pre-tax income in 2006, though slightly higher than in 2004, fell to $48,223 from an inflation-adjusted $49,477 in 2000, according to the Census Bureau. Weekly wage figures from 2007 suggest the decline persists. Recessions often depress middle-class incomes and moods. What's unusual about these declines is that they occurred during the economic expansion that began in 2001 -- the first time that's happened during a prolonged expansion in at least 40 years. The main reason: The benefits of prosperity have gone disproportionately to the families at the very top. Adjusted for inflation, income of the top 1% of earners grew at an annual rate of 11% from 2002 to 2006, according to an analysis of Internal Revenue Service data by economists Thomas Piketty of the Paris School of Economics and Emmanuel Saez of the University of California at Berkeley. Incomes of the bottom 99% grew at less than 1% annually. "If incomes are rising for everybody, but the rich are getting better off faster, then inequality isn't much of an issue," says Massachusetts Institute of Technology economist Frank Levy. "When people's incomes aren't rising, then inequality is a much bigger issue." Longing for the '90s In some ways, the American middle class is better off than it was eight years ago. It is paying less taxes, thanks to President Bush's tax cuts. The rate of violent crime in 2006 was lower than in 2000. Death rates for heart disease and stroke have declined by about 25%. Here in Lancaster, shops and art galleries are opening in the once-abandoned downtown. The Pennsylvania Academy of Music has a new concert hall in a building designed by noted architect Philip Johnson. The old Hamilton Watch factory has been converted to condominiums, and a three-year-old state-of-the-art stadium for the Lancaster Barnstormers minor-league baseball team is attracting flocks of fans. Partly because of agriculture's lasting role in the area, Lancaster's unemployment rate was 34% last year, compared to 46% nationally. Nevertheless, Allan Ziegler, the business administrator at First Presbyterian Church in Lancaster, says he fears the future. "We're comfortable, but we're not set -- we struggle," he says. An Obama supporter, Mr Ziegler says he has only meager savings and no pension, but that he draws some hope from the candidate's message: "He gets out there and talks about the dilemma of the average person." Across the country, some Americans are feeling increasingly grim. In a recent Pew Research Center survey, 41% of respondents rated their lives as better than five years ago, and 31% said they were worse. That response is even glummer than in 1979, when, amid rising economic malaise, 25% of respondents to a similar survey rated their lives as worse. Pressure on middle-class incomes pre-dates the Bush presidency. The seismic shifts in technology, trade, education, regulation and unions had eroded some workers' incomes as early as the 1980s. That decade also saw the changes in pay patterns that led to huge paychecks for athletes, rock stars and investment bankers while the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage declined. But though the US lost one million manufacturing jobs between 1980 and 1990, the 1990s turned out to be a good one for the middle class. Median income, adjusted for inflation, rose 11% between 1990 and 2000. As the benefits of computers and technology kicked in at long last, the growth in productivity -- or output per hour of work ... |