2/4     Hey dimwit, I'm subsidizing for your wasteful LA freeways, what
        would you have to say if LA roads were toll roads like in the
        People's Republic of New England?
        \_ Go for it. We're headed there anyway. The carpool lanes are
           well on their way to becoming toll lanes. Maybe they won't
           have potholes once someone is concerned about them. I'm
           subsidizing BART which does nothing but lose money. How about
           we make it pay for itself, too?
           \_ How about we accept that there are some social goods (the ability
              to travel without having to be rich) that outweigh our fiscal
              investments?
              \_ The motd keeps telling me all these fees and taxes are for
                 the services I get from local government.  Now I'm told they
                 are just a social good.  Which is it?  I don't have kids,
                 should I pay school taxes?  I do use the freeways which you
                 say is a social good and thus should be free, but the op says
                 they are wasteful and should be usage-fee-based which is
                 contrary to your claims of free travel being a social good
                 we should pay for with everyone's taxes.  Which is it?
                 \_ School taxes: yes; an educated populace beats an uneducated
                    populace and has social side-effects that translate into
                    less expenditures down the line. I'm saying that some
                    things are worth paying for, no matter that they don't pay
                    for themselves, BART and Amtrak included. -!op
                    \_ Why is BART worth paying for if it can't pay for itself?
                       Why not buy everyone a car, or a donkey, or a bike,
                       or a helicopter?
                       \_ Are you being disingenuous?
                          Rail is the most space-efficient and
                          energy-efficient way to transport large numbers
                          of people over significant distances.  BART itself
                          is pretty fucked up, but public funding of rail
                          in urban areas is way more obviously of public
                          benefit than public funding of freeways.  -tom
                          \_ Rail is really inefficient if you have to go
                             somewhere without rails nearby.
                             \_ gee, so are roads.  That's why you build
                                infrastructure.  -tom
                                \_ Roads are cheaper infrastructure than
                                   building rail to the driveway of my house.
                                   \_ The freeway, the surface street, the
                                      residential street, and your driveway
                                      draw funds from several different
                                      sources. Mix and match and see what cost
                                      you come up with.
                                      \_ I'm sure it's cheaper than rail
                                         if only because I don't have to
                                         buy a train. If you advocate that
                                         we each buy our own train then I
                                         don't see how it's any better
                                         than what we have now.
                                         \_ Rail is much cheaper on a
                                            per-passenger basis.  And enough
                                            with the straw men.  -tom
                                            \_ These are not straw men. This is
                                               reality. I need to get from
                                               my house to my office. My
                                               neighbor needs to get from
                                               his house to his office.
                                               Rail is not a good way to
                                               solve this problem unless
                                               we are both going to offices
                                               very close to each other.
                                               Even in Europe, with great
                                               public transit, buses are vital.
                                               If you're going to use buses
                                               then you need roads, so what is
                                               the point of rail? I actually
                                               think rail is the least
                                               efficient solution. Rail is
                                               great to get large amounts of
                                               goods (or people) from point A
                                               to point B, but that's not often
                                               the problem that needs solving.
                                               \_ Are you really this stupid?
                                                  Buses feed rail arteries.
                                                  Obviously you still need
                                                  local streets; it's not at
                                                  all clear that you need
                                                  freeways.  Certainly
                                                  freeways are far less
                                                  efficient than rail.  -tom
                                                  \_ Are freeways really that
                                                     expensive compared to the
                                                     miles and miles of local
                                                     roads which we need
                                                     anyway?  Replacing all
                                                     freeways with rail sound
                                                     freeways with rail sounds
                                                     rather stupid to me. Even
                                                     the Germans have the
                                                     Autobahn. You are
                                                     projecting your love of
                                                     bike here against
                                                     common sense.
                                                     \_ The ROI on dollars
                                                        spent on high-speed
                                                        rail infrastructure
                                                        is higher than dollars
                                                        spent on freeway
                                                        infrastructure.
                                                        More passenger-miles
                                                        per dollar, fewer
                                                        emissions per dollar.
                                                        That's common sense.
                                                          -tom
                                                        \_ Your ROI depends on
                                                           the problem you are
                                                           solving. Taking
                                                           1500 cargo
                                                           containers from a
                                                           port to a warehouse,
                                                           sure. Taking 1500
                                                           people from their
                                                           homes to 1500 places
                                                           of employment maybe
                                                           not. As I said,
                                                           even in Europe
                                                           and Japan they have
                                                           roads and freeways.
                                                           Rail is just an
                                                           additional cost to
                                                           add to that. It can
                                                           help eliminate
                                                           congestion at
                                                           certain times, but
                                                           your ROI argument
                                                           leads me to believe
                                                           that congestion is
                                                           not your main issue
                                                           and that relief
                                                           comes with a high
                                                           price you refuse to
                                                           acknowledge.
                                                           \_ That's because
                                                              the price isn't
                                                              high, relative
                                                              to the costs of
                                                              building and
                                                              running a
                                                              freeway and all
                                                              the cars on it.
                                                                -tom
                                                              \_ But you
                                                                 acknowledge
                                                                 we need roads,
                                                                 so why pay
                                                                 more for rail,
                                                                 too?
                                                                 \_ How the
                                                                    hell did
                                                                    your brain
                                                                    get stuck
                                                                    in binary?
                       \_ A helicopter?  That's a truly great idea!  I always
                          wanted a helicopter.  If you ran for office on the
                          "helicopter on every pad!" platform you'd have my
                          vote!  I don't need a donkey or a bike, though.
                       \_ Suppose there were 300K more cars on the road in
                          the Bay Area. One thing you're paying for is your
                          commute not to be even worse than it is.
                          \_ I don't live in the Bay Area, so I'm really
                             paying for not much of benefit to me.
                             \_ You aren't paying for it then either, since
                                BART is mostly funded by fares + the 1/2 cent
                                regional sales tax.
                                \_ "mostly"
                                   \_ Yes, 100% of the operating costs, in
                                      fact. Not sure how much of the capital
                                      costs, less than 100% though.
                          \_ Bart subtracts 300K cars? Says who? How are they
                             distributed? What else might those resources have
                             been used for?
                             \_ It's hypothetical. You can base it on the
                                average weekday ridership of >300K if you
                                like. Point is, do you remember what traffic
                                was like the last time there was a major
                                BART outage?
                                \_ "No, I was in LA and it didn't affect
                                   me at all, therefore your argument is
                                   weak."       -pretending to be dimwit
                                   \_ Another way of thinking about it is
                                      to imagine Bay Area traffic being like
                                      LA traffic.
                                      \_ Or even worse, Seattle.