2/1     Just out of curiosity, are there any registered Republicans here on
        motd? -emarkp
        \_ Tell us what you think about the Iraq War. Was it a right
           decision?
        \_ We're mostly flip flopping Independents and are not as rigid
           and brain dead as most of the ultra right wing Conservatives.
        \_ I am.  But I always vote Democrat.  I'm also the same guy
           who is trying to seduce the hot 30 year old Mormon.
           \_ by the way, how's that going?
        \_ I register Republican and vote for the 2nd or 3rd weakest
           person in the primary hoping to dilute their hope of winning.
           The Party of Corruption must go away.
           \_ So both the Dems and Repubs then? -emarkp
              \_ The corrupt party IN POWER needs to go away. That party
                 is currently R, but when D's take control, I will vote
                 them out as well.              -smart independent
              \_ Dems = Good.  Reps = Evil.
           \_ Another flaw of this political system.
        \_ I should be I guess, but I'm Nonpartisan. I can't vote in the
           R primary in CA. I hate the mainstream of both parties. I'm
           not sure what I'll do for the primary. I guess I'll go and vote
           in the D one for the hell of it.
           Ok I've decided to vote for Obama. I would vote for him over
           McCain in the general election anyway.
           Ok I've decided to vote for Obama.
           \_ I am also "decline to state" and I didn't think choosing
              the R primary was an option this year. My ballot says I get
              a choice of D or some other smaller parties, but not R.
              \_ Yeah, that's what I'm referring to, the CA R party
                 excluded the independents. But we could have registered R
                 up until the Jan 23rd or some such.
                 \_ Why would the R party do that? I would imagine more I
                    voters choose R over D.
                    \_ Probably not this year.
        \_ Not this election. --erikred
        \_ I registered undecided.  Its sad that the Republican party excludes
           us undecided's from their primary.  I guess they don't care about
           our our feedback on which of their  candidates would appeal most to
           the undecided folks, and would rather cede the 'undecided' vote to
           the other party in the real election -- the one that actually counts.
           \_ Yeah, I'm rather disappointed that I can't vote in the R primary
              this time.  The canidates are actually kinda good.  The Ds
              have scum and dumb.
              \- it just seems arrogant and stupid.  The R members are most
                 likely to vote for an R in the election, regardless of which
                 of their candidates get chosen in the primary, so the real
                 election gets decided by who gets the most of the the
                 'undecided vote' (assuming a even distributino of R and D's).
                 It's stupid to marginalize the undecide voters' appeal in that
                 situation.
                 \_  Of coure the reality is that the CA distribution is
                     heavily Democratic, so much so the Republicans might as
                     well not bother holding a primary here.
                     \_ Yeah, no way an R can win an important office in CA
                        \_ Yeah, not like the governorship or ... anything ...
                           \_ Except he's a RINO.
                           \_ Exactly. It'll never happen. About as likely
                              as an R President from CA.
        \_ All you people complaining about not being able to vote in the
           primaries because you're not registered should have changed your
           party 2 weeks ago.  There's a simple form you can use to change
           party up to 2 weeks before an election in CA.
        \_ I've been a registered Repblican for nearly 15 years, but I think
           I will probably switch to Independent b/c the party has gone all
           kook in recent years (well, except for the Governator).
           \_ What are you looking for in your political party/candidates?
              \_ I guess I'm looking for people who are willing to think
                 things through and come up with reasonable solutions. I
                 just don't see the current crop of GOP and Democrats as
                 willing to do that. Currently both the Dems and the GOP
                 kind of weird me out - the Dems on social issues and the
                 GOP on the Religious Right & the War in Iraq. I think we
                 need more reasonable people like the Governator running
                 the country.
                 \_ I agree that both parties stink right now. One wants
                    big government and handouts like universal health
                    care. The other one wants to erode our civil liberties
                    and bankrupt the country fighting wars. Candidates
                    should stop pandering to the populace and do what
                    makes sense.
                    \_ The current Admin is rooting for three of the four
                       things you complain about plus tax cuts for the
                       plutocrats. What makes sense is universal healthcare,
                       even if it's work-based; what doesn't make sense is a
                       first-world nation with working-poor.
                       \_ Illegal immigration directly impacts the poor. It
                          dilutes the value of uneducated, unskilled labor.
                          It also adds more poor kids into public schools
                          whose parents don't pay taxes, thus lowering the
                          education quality for the poorest people.
                          A welfare state is incompatible with lax
                          immigration policies.
                          \_ This I agree with. Because I believe in the
                             promise of America, I support lax immigration
                             policies and a free market state. Hardcore
                             liberals fail to realize that their alternative
                             is a socialist state with strict immigration
                             policies. That almost sounds like fascism to
                             me. They sweep that part under the rug.
                             I think it helps more people to be able to
                             migrate here and fend for themselves versus
                             keeping everyone else out but having a populace
                             of fat and lazy sheep.
                             \_ Too late. LA is full of lazy fat sheeps
                                who blast hip-hop music on 101/405/210/5
                                710 freeways in their SUVs. You know what
                                annoys me even more about S Cal? People
                                leaving their dogs alone 12-14hrs a day
                                in the backyard, barking non-stop and
                                annoying the hell outa everyone else. The
                                only good thing about LA is the abundance
                                of cheap gardeners for their beloved lawns.
                       \_ I am vehemently opposed to universal healthcare.
                          I am also opposed to non-working middle class,
                          like in Europe. Pay for other people with your
                          dollars, not mine. BTW, if you want free
                          medical, retirement, education, and housing then
                          there's the US military waiting for you.
                          \_ I was vehemently opposed to the Iraq War, but
                             that didn't stop you from spending my tax
                             dollars on it. Get used to being out of power
                             for a while. Move to Canada if you don't like it.
                             \_ I'm not an R and I'm glad Bush is leaving
                                office.
                                \_ Did you vote for him?
                          \_ Unless you went to private schools all your life,
                             earned every penny you've spent, and inherited
                             nothing, I find your petty Libertarianism
                             utterly unconvincing.
                             \_ Did you return Bush's tax cut to the IRS?
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ No, I reinvested in hookers and blow.
                                   \_ I find your petty Liberalism utterly
                                      unconvincing.  -- ilyas
                                      \_ Touche', Academic Libertarian living
                                         off the grant teat.
                             \_ This is complete shit, sorry. The welfare
                                state exists and using it has nothing at all
                                to do with whether one believes it should
                                exist.
                                exist. If you were in communist Russia, would
                                you not eat the government bread?
                             \_ I'm not trying to convince you. If you
                                like socialism then Europe is waiting for you.
                                If you like American values then you are
                                in the right place.
                                1. Yes, except for UCB which I sometimes
                                   regret, and a year in elementary school
                                   which was a waste of a year of my life
                                  \_ Your parents paid for private schools
                                     almost your entire life and yet you
                                     claim you will not inherit anything.
                                     How is that possible?
                                     \_ They spent a lot of their money on
                                        private schools instead of on
                                        themselves. I am sure when they
                                        die I will get a bill and not a check.
                                        Private schools are not completely
                                        filled with blue-bloods and you
                                        can qualify for aid.
                                        \_ The money they spent on your
                                           education _is_ your inheritance.
                                           You benefited from their benefits.
                                           To pretend that someone, somewhere
                                           along your line didn't benefit from
                                           social progams or position from
                                           birth is simply dishonest.
                                           \_ Using your definition we all
                                              inherit from our parents. I
                                              think that's a stupid
                                              definition.
                                              \_ Not all of us go to private
                                                 schools.
                                                 \_ Non-sequitur. Did you
                                                    not benefit from your
                                                    ancestors in some manner?
                                                    \_ You're making my point
                                                       for me: we are all
                                                       beneficiaries of the
                                                       system. To pretend that
                                                       you earned everything
                                                       you have on your own
                                                       merits is ridiculous.
                                                      \_ Nobody is saying that,
                                                         nice straw man.
                                                         What is wrong with
                                                         families supporting
                                                         each other? Why do we
                                                         need "the system" to
                                                         replace that? That is
                                                         out of some Orwellian
                                                         dystopia, not America.
                                                         \_Are you a 1st
                                                           generation immigrant?
                                                           There is nothing
                                                           wrong with that, but
                                                           it might explain some
                                                           of your half-cocked
                                                           ideas about what
                                                           "America" is.
                                                           \_ "The system" is
                                                              not "my ancestor".
                                2. Of course,
                                3. That's right.
                                However, I'm not Libertarian. They are too
                                far to the right. I'm just practical. I
                                understand that most candidates running
                                now wish to bankrupt the country, whether
                                on idiotic sojourns to Iraq or by
                                government handouts. To be honest, Arnold
                                S. is my brand of government and I'm not
                                the person in this thread who already
                                mentioned him. I am socially liberal but
                                fiscally conservative and I really, really
                                hate socialism and socialist policies as a
                                product of my European family, most of
                                whom can't wait to get the hell out of the
                                shithole that is Europe.
                                \_ You speak as if it were not possible to
                                   provide minimal assistance and public
                                   services and yet not put us in deficit:
                                   Where were you when Clinton gave us the
                                   surpluses? Also, which shithole Euro
                                   nation did you flee? The socialist Nordic
                                   states seem to doing just fine.
                                   \_ Those surpluses were fleeting and
                                      the product of a gigantic bubble we
                                      won't see again for decades. Clinton
                                      (and government in general) had nothing
                                      to do with it. However, they did
                                      manage to spend that money. BTW, I
                                      think at issue here is what 'minimal
                                      assistance' means. It means different
                                      things to different people.
                                      \_ More of your GIGO thinking. Government
                                         shrank during the Clinton era. Clinton
                                         had nothing to do with this?
                                         \_ Had more to do with revenues
                                            increasing than any shrinkage
                                            of government. BTW, what the
                                            hell is "GIGO"?
                                            \_ Garbage In Garbage Out
                                               What do they teach CS students
                                               these days?
                                               \_ Heard the term, but never
                                                  saw it referred to with
                                                  that acronym. Makes
                                                  sense now that I know.
                                            \_ How did increasing revenues
                                               lead to a smaller gov't headcount
                                               and decreased real per capita
                                               gov't spending?
                                   \_ My family is from France, Germany, and
                                      the Netherlands. My French relatives
                                      in particular cannot stand France
                                      anymore and are selling their
                                      property to move to places like US
                                      and Canada. More would come to the US,
                                      but for GWB giving us a bad reputation.
                                      The EU has not been a good thing for
                                      Western European citizens. It has made
                                      everything expensive, eroded social
                                      services, made people work harder
                                      (or for the first time in their lives)
                                      and brought in an influx of cheap
                                      labor from Eastern Europe and
                                      Russia. Now that Europe is finally
                                      grappling with the same problems the US
                                      has been it is clear that their model
                                      needs to change. It is certainly not the
                                      direction the US needs to move in.
                                      They will collapse before we do
                                      without serious reforms. The people
                                      in countries like Denmark are living
                                      in la-la land and think that they
                                      will be immune to the problems facing
                                      countries like France, but they have
                                      their heads in the sand.
                                   \_ Boewulf is cool man!!! Go Scandinavia!
                                  \_ Norway is rich because of oil. The others
                                     aren't doing that great. Aside from that,
                                     "seeming to do fine" is not a meaningful
                                     point of discussion.
                                     Communist USSR, Vietnam, and China "seem
                                     to do fine" also. The USA seemed to do
                                     fine with slavery.
                                     \_ Denmark boasts happy people, a strong
                                        economy, and socialized medicine. Not
                                        a lot of oil. Life is good. Wtf was the
                                        slavery/communism thing about?
                                        \_ Denmark is the size of my living
                                           room.
                                     \_ OK, how about measures like crime
                                        rate, literacy rate, infant mortality,
                                        life expectancy?  The US scores
                                        poorly.
                                        \_ And yet we are the wealthiest
                                           nation in the world. I think
                                           a lot of those measurements are
                                           meaningless. What matters more
                                           is what the top 10% are doing
                                           and not the conditions of the bottom
                                           10% who are just drains on
                                           society anyway. Do you want to
                                           compare standards of living of
                                           the top 33% of Americans with
                                           the top 33% of <pick your
                                           nation>? I am not necessarily
                                           advocating throwing the poor to
                                           the wolves, but this is the
                                           country where that poor person
                                           can die a billionaire. The
                                           price to be paid is that some
                                           people are chewed up and spit
                                           out. I prefer a system that
                                           rewards ability even if it
                                           means some people fare a little
                                           worse (but still *very very well*
                                           compared to most of the world.)
                                           The US takes in the dregs of
                                           humanity and provides for them.
                                           Of course the averages are
                                           going to suffer for that. Most
                                           of them (if you ask them)
                                           wouldn't move anywhere else.
                                           They love having opportunity!
                                           Why do you insist on telling
                                           people what they want?
                                           \_ Let them eat cake.
                                              \_ The US is the antithesis of
                                                 the French monarchy.
                                                 \_ In its purest form, yes.
                                                    The current tax cuts for
                                                    plutocrats bring us closer
                                                    to Le Roi du Soleil.
                                                    to Circus du Soleil
                                           \_ Great: Now prove that the US
                                              system rewards ability.
                                              Income mobility has decreased
                                              in the U.S. since the
                                              pre-Reagan years, and the U.S.
                                              has less income mobility than
                                              most European countries.
                                              (Obligatory Reagan answer:
                                              poor people just want to be
                                              poor).  -tom
                                             \_ What data do you have saying
                                                income mobility decreased or
                                                is less than Europe? Maybe
                                                some people do want to be poor.
                                                Maybe the welfare state
                                                encourages that. Why is it that
                                                certain immigrant groups do
                                                much better here than others
                                                or than certain poor natives?
                                                \_ http://www.csua.org/u/kp7
                                                   The Economist magazine
                                                   on class mobility in the US.
                                                   (They also say it is higher
                                                    in Europe, but not in that
                                                    article).
                                                   \_ That's not data, that's
                                                      an article headline.
                                                      I can't get to the rest
                                                      of the article.
                                                      \_ I put a copy in
                                                /var/tmp/economist.mobility
                                                         for you and added
                                                /var/tmp/economist.america
                                                         for good measure.
                                                        \_ Ok, how useful is
                                                        it to talk about class
                                                        and average incomes
                                                        in an essentially
                                                        socialist country?
                                                        For example the NYTimes
                                                        thing compares gen-to
                                                        gen income growth. But
                                                        this would of course
                                                        take longer if there
                                                        is a wider range to
                                                        start with. Wealth
                                                        disparity: is it an
                                                        inherent problem to be
                                                        addressed?
                                                        The e'ist also points
                                                        out that the poor are
                                                        better off in absolute
                                                        terms than they ever
                                                        were.
                                                        This is also in the
                                                        context of an America
                                                        that is not free of
                                                        welfare, so it is not
                                                        really an appropriate
                                                        example for comparison.
                                                        Denmark is too small
                                                        to be appropriate
                                                        anyway.
                                                        \_ I'm not the one
                                                           making the
                                                           extraordinary claim
                                                           that there is more
                                                           opportunity in the
                                                           US than elsewhere;
                                                           or even more oddly,
                                                           that the relative
                                                           lack of social
                                                           services in the US
                                                           *causes* greater
                                                           opportunity.
                                                           Where's the evidence
                                                           for that?
                                                             -tom
                                                         \_ Well, the evidence
                                                            shows a) more ppl
                                                            *believe* they have
                                                            opportunity, and b)
                                                            the successful ppl
                                                            in the US are
                                                            apparently more
                                                            successful than
                                                            those elsewhere.
                                                            \_ or the system
                                                               is rigged in
                                                               favor of the
                                                               rich.  -tom
                                                             \_ Do you think
                                                                we should allow
                                                                there to exist
                                                                rich people?
                                                                Maybe we should
                                                                have an asset
                                                                cap?
                                                              \_ Do you think
                                                                 we should
                                                                 allow both
                                                                 obscene wealth
                                                                 and abject
                                                                 poverty to
                                                                 exist in the
                                                                 same society?
                                                                   -tom
                                                                \_ Allow? I
                                                                   think
                                                                   obscenity
                                                                   is subjctve
                                                                   and you have
                                                                   a personal
                                                                   choice to
                                                                   give wealth
                                                                   to the poor.
                                                                   But remov-
                                                                   ing wealth
                                                                   seems a more
                                                                   efficient
                                                                   solution to
                                                                   that issue.
                                                                   The excess
                                                                   wealth will
                                                                   naturally be
                                                                   auctioned
                                                                   out to the
                                                                   "have nots"
                                                                   and bring
                                                                   everyone
                                                                   closer to
                                                                   avg. Unlike
                                                                   handouts, it
                                                                   scales to
                                                                   any level of
                                                                   national
                                                                   wealth and
                                                                   does not put
                                                                   a drag on
                                                                   economy.
                                                   \_ I'm calling BS on the
                                                      class mobility in Europe.
                                                      It is still very
                                                      important who your family
                                                      is/was in Europe. I
                                                      have a Czech friend
                                                      in France who is a
                                                      scientist there (and who
                                                      was also one here).
                                                      He told me their system
                                                      allocates N slots for
                                                      scientists and you have
                                                      to wait for one to open
                                                      up before you can be
                                                      hired. The allocated
                                                      slots are filled with
                                                      people resting on their
                                                      laurels and their
                                                      cronies. A surprising
                                                      number are based on
                                                      nepotism. If your dad
                                                      was a famous scientist
                                                      or politician then you
                                                      will likely get a slot.
                                                      He says this is in stark
                                                      contrastely get a slot.
                                                      This is in stark contrast
                                                      to the US, where the
                                                      brightest students get
                                                      a slot no matter. Sure,
                                                      it matters who you are
                                                      here, too (GWB) but not
                                                      like in Europe where it
                                                      seeps into every day life.
                                                      \_ The pluaral of
                                                         anecdote is not data.
                                                       /var/tmp/economist.europe
                                                         From the NYT:
                                                       http://www.csua.org/u/kpb
                                                         A nice book:
                                                       http://www.csua.org/u/kpc
                                                       \_ Let's put this in a
                                                          way you will
                                                          understand:
                                                          How many Euros come
                                                          to the US for
                                                          opportunity vs. how
                                                          many Americans go to
                                                          Europe seeking
                                                          opportunity? You went
                                                          to Cal. How many
                                                          classmates went to
                                                          Europe for grad
                                                          school/postdoc and
                                                          stayed there? How
                                                          many Euros came here
                                                          for grad/postdoc and
                                                          stayed here? There
                                                          is a lot more
                                                          opportunity in the
                                                          US, but it's funny
                                                          that Americans are
                                                          often not those who
                                                          take advantage of it.
                                                          You can lead a
                                                          horse to water...
                                                          I think that helps
                                                          explain the above
                                                          numbers.
                                                          \_ Even when all the
                                                             evidence points\
                                                             against you, you
                                                             continue to believe
                                                             a false proposition
                                                             An unwillingness
                                                             to learn is not
                                                             conducive to
                                                             success.
                                                           \_ The evidence does
                                                              not all point
                                                              against. Irony.
        \_ I didn't leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me.