12/17   $45 trillion gap seen in US benefits
        http://www.newsweek.com/id/78426
        \_ And their quotes come from... administration officials, R congs,
           and a blue dog dem from TN... This is the "drown it in a bathtub"
           crowd.  How 'bout some mention of how we got here...
        \_ 75% of this is Medicare. Socializing medicine would fix this
           problem.
           \_ How do you figure?
              \_ Spending growth is out of control in the health care
                 sector primarily because the users of the system don't
                 see the true costs of their actions, and there are a bunch
                 of entrenched interests (primarily insurance companies and
                 drug companies, but also physicians) who are vested in
                 keeping it that way. The rising cost of delivery kills
                 everyone, including medicare. Those places that have a
                 single government payer have been able to ration health
                 care more effectively and keep a lid on cost growth. You
                 might be able to do it with a straight free market system
                 but I don't see that working here. One way or another, we
                 are going to have to reduce health care delivery costs in
                 order to handle the wave of boomers reaching retirement age.
                 \_ You think that having the taxpayers foot the entire
                    bill is going to help the users realize their true
                    healthcare costs? I argue the opposite. Socializing
                    medicine will make costs higher. Look at your own
                    example: Medicare. Eliminate Medicare and I guarantee
                    healthcare costs will go down.
                    \_ Except there is the counterexample of every other
                       country in the world that has nationalized healthcare.
                       They all pay less in overall costs, both in dollars
                       and as a percentage of their GDP.
                       People will gripe about the long wait times but I
                       trust the government to do a better job of rationing
                       than the "free" market, which would just let millions
                       die due to lack of basic care. Eliminating medicare
                       might make costs come down, but how many would die
                       do to lack of treatment? Is that really how you want
                       to ration healthcare: if you can't afford it, die on
                       street?
                       \_ For people who need expensive treatment to
                          stay alive, maybe they should just die if they
                          can't afford it. Everyone dies. Especially for
                          people who are older than say, 60: why should
                          we pay more than X to artificially keep them alive?
                          A lot of problems are caused by lifestyle choices.
                          \_ We are probably not as far apart as you think.
                             I think the cheap and easy preventative medicine
                             should be free and widely available and I think
                             the government should generally only pay for
                             well understood and relatively inexpensive care
                             outside of that. If you are 97 and you get
                             liver cancer, oh well you are going to die,
                             unless you can afford to pay for your own
                             treatment. But a total "free market" system
                             where poor people would have no access to
                             health care at all would be a disaster. Want to
                             to see whooping cough come back? Stop providing
                             free immunizations to poor children and it will.
                             That and a host of other formerly endemic diseases
                             and they will not conveniently only infect the
                             "unworthy of health care" poor.
                             \_ Not all charity should come from government
                                either.
                 \_ Current HSA plans allow patients to choose their healthcare
                    more carefully, keeping the money in a retirement plan if
                    it's not spent, thus injecting some direct competition.
                    Those seem to be working.  I'd definitely prefer that type
                    of plan over socializing it.  Romney's comment about Mass.
                    is that they had 7% uninsured. Out here in CA I suspect
                    it's higher than that.
                    \_ Yes there is a chance that something like an HSA could
                       inject enough consumer desire to reign in healthcare
                       spending. Is there evidence that is seems to be working,
                       as you say? The only way it could make a big enough
                       difference to significantly change things is if it was
                       extremeley widespread though. Would you support making
                       them mandatory?
                   \- you get to keep what you dont use from your HSA?
                      i thought they were all use or lose.
                      \_ http://www.hsainsider.com/Individual/Benefits.aspx
                         The HSA is a relatively new concept, you are thinking
                         of a different plan, called an FSA.