Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 48692
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2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

2007/11/26-29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:48692 Activity:nil
11/25   Is Waterboarding torture?
        http://www.csua.org/u/k2i (The Week)
        \_ Apparently, Tasers are.  At that point, anything is torture.
           \_ The USSC said tasers are torture? When did they say that?
              \_ No, SCOTUS didn't say that. Google the news for tasers and
                 torture.
           \_ Tasers can be torture.  When police use tasers one a restrained
              subject, as punishment, they are using tasers as torture
              devices.
                \_ In this same vein, so are car batteries, hammers,
                   whatever....
                   \_ Umm, those are regularly used as torture devices.
                      Or would you be happy if police regularly smashed
                      people in the hand with a hammer for not doing what
                      they say?
              \_ So when a prisoner is escorted to court with a taser belt, and
                 it's used to zap him if he gets out of line, you'd say it's a
                 torture device?
                 \_ If it is used to zap him if he attacks someone, probably
                    not.  If it is used to make someone do something that
                    could be done without the use of pain, yes, it is
                    torture.  And that's what tasers have become to some
                    law enforcement, ways of getting people to kowtow
                    instantly.  That's torture.
                    \_ I thought torture was inflicting pain to get
                       information, not to get them to comply.  What about
                       beating someone with batons if they won't fall in line?
                       \_ That's pretty obvious torture.  It's part of ruling
                          by fear.  And it is what our police departments are
                          rapidly becoming, forces of fear.
                          \_ It is not torture the way the Geneva Convention
                             defines torture. There has to be a lot more to
                             it than that, like permanent damage.
                             \_ This is not a testable distinction if you
                                include psychological damage. -- ilyas
2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

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Cache (6065 bytes)
www.csua.org/u/k2i -> www.theweekdaily.com/news_opinion/briefing/28686/briefing_drowning_on_dry_land.html
Briefing: Drowning on dry land The centuries-old interrogation technique called waterboarding has once again become a major issue, this time in the confirmation hearings of President Bush's nominee for attorney general. There are numerous variations, but a subject generally is bound to an inclined board--with his feet raised and head lowered--while his face is covered with a piece of cloth. The interrogator then pours water over the prisoner's face in a steady stream, causing the wet material to cling to his mouth and nostrils. As the water pours down, some of it does penetrate the cloth and the nostrils and trickles down into the lungs, and the panicky prisoner bucks and gasps for air. CIA personnel who have undergone the experience as part of their training have lasted an average of only 14 seconds before pleading for it to stop. "When you're waterboarded, you're inverted, so it exacerbates the fear," said one CIA agent. The feeling of water filling your nose and throat triggers a primal survival mechanism, and prisoners become desperate to escape. But they can't move or hold their breath for long, and as they fight for air, the torrent of water overwhelms their gag reflex, making them feel as if they are dying. "They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation," former US prisoner of war Lt. Chase Nielsen testified at a war crimes trial of the Japanese in 1942. "I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death." While waterboarding is often described as "simulated" drowning, it's more accurately described as "controlled'' drowning, said Malcolm Nance, former chief of training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape School in San Diego. "How much the victim is to endure depends on the desired result, in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face, and the obstinacy of the subject." It was first used during the Spanish Inquisition in the 1500s on people suspected of holding Jewish, Protestant, or other heretical beliefs. During World War II, both the Nazis and the Japanese used waterboarding during the interrogation of resistant prisoners. The Khmer Rouge employed waterboarding during its reign of terror in Cambodia. Most recently, the Bush administration authorized CIA interrogators to use waterboarding as one of several "enhanced interrogation techniques" for prisoners captured in the war on terrorism. No one can withstand waterboarding for long without breaking down. "Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board," said Nance, whose job involved training American personnel to try to resist waterboarding. The usefulness of the information elicited, however, is very much in debate. But CIA agents say Mohammed also "confessed'' that al Qaida was plotting to kill former presidents Clinton and Carter and Pope John Paul II, making them realize that he was inventing sensational information to satisfy his interrogators. Another al Qaida operative who was waterboarded, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libbi, blurted out details about the connection between al Qaida and Saddam Hussein, saying that Iraq had trained terrorists in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But al-Libbi later recanted, and the CIA concluded that he "had no knowledge of such training or weapons, and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment." For decades, it's been banned by both international law and US policy. In fact, the US has historically treated waterboarding as a criminal act. During the Spanish-American War, Maj Edwin Glenn used the technique on Filipino insurgents and was court-martialed. After World War II, several Japanese soldiers who had waterboarded Allied prisoners drew sentences ranging from hard labor to death. During Vietnam, a US soldier who had waterboarded a North Vietnamese prisoner was given a dishonorable discharge. "I believe that it is torture, very exquisite torture," said Sen. The Bush administration disagrees, defining torture as methods that inflict permanent bodily damage on prisoners, such as beating them or cutting off their fingers or limbs. Allen Keller of the Bellevue Hospital Center in New York City recently testified before Congress that victims of waterboarding are so traumatized they continue to have nightmares, depression, and panic attacks years later. One patient, Keller said, couldn't take showers and had panic attacks whenever it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said. "These methods are intended to break the prisoners down, to terrify them and cause harm to their psyche, and result in lasting harmful health consequences." Publicly, it refuses to say anything about waterboarding. But in 2006, the Supreme Court ruled that all prisoners in US captivity must be treated according to the Geneva Conventions. In July, President Bush signed an executive order barring "humiliating and degrading treatment" that any "reasonable person" would deem "beyond the bounds of human decency." The CIA had stopped waterboarding months earlier and no longer uses the technique, according to unnamed government officials quoted in several recent newspaper stories. Still, the administration won't say publicly that waterboarding has been banned, on the grounds that it doesn't want terrorists to know what to expect if they're captured. "I'm not going to talk about techniques,'' Bush said last week. Add Comment Recent comments | 1 total bob | November 11th, 2007 this is not a fair technique... this shows s how much confidence we have in our government.......... SEE ALL READER COMMENTS > image image YOUR E-MAIL RECIPIENT E-MAIL YOUR COMMENT (optional) send The e-mail addresses that you enter will only be used to send the requested article and will not be stored or shared with third parties. advertisement FROM THE MAGAZINE Noted Soldiers weary of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980. Nearly 4,700 soldiers deserted this year--a 42 percent increase over last year.