10/12   Awesome.   http://csua.org/u/jq0
        (ebay auction of... oh, who cares, it's partisan crap disguised as a
        short url.  Op, did you happen to see your dignity on auction while you
        were there?)
        \_ Actually it's about accuracy, and Reid's inability to find it with
           both hands.
           \_ Actually, it is about Rush Limbaugh's attempt to rewrite history,
              something he does all the time. Where are his transcripts of him
              calling Chelsea Clinton the "White House Dog?"
              http://mediamatters.org/items/200709270010
              See where he calls them "phony soldiers."
              \_ Yeah, http://mm.org has been arguing against the truth for quite a
                 while.  Limbaugh clearly was talking about actual phony
                 soldiers.  See "Operation Stolen Valor".  Limbaugh went on to
                 talk about McBride and others like him.
                 talk about Macbeth and others like him.
              \_ I heard it live, in context.  He was clearly not turning
                 his back on 20+ years of pro-military rhetoric.  Reid and
                 http://mm.org got it wrong.  The only way they could get it so
                 wrong was by intentionally ignoring the facts.  Rush is
                 an amusing entertainer and not worthy of this sort of
                 waste of time on the Senate floor nor a ridiculous witch
                 hunt.  Especially since he's said plenty of other things
                 worth attacking that he's actually said.
                 \_ Another "phony soldier" no doubt:
                    http://www.csua.org/u/jq2
                    Rush only calls you a phony if you don't support
                    Bush's war.
                    \_ If you ever actually listened to Rush you'd know he's
                       said many times that he has no problem with real
                       soldiers being critical of the war.  Just the fakes
                       and frauds like the guy he was talking about that day
                       who flunked out of basic but falsely claimed to be a
                       US Army ranger who committed and witnessed numerous
                       atrocities.  You're tossing a red herring.  Reid is
                       a liar.  Media Matters (a Hillary created front org)
                       are liars.  The other 40 Senators who signed his
                       stupid letter are liars.  If you want to bash Bush or
                       the war, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with
                       Reid, Hillary, and the rest flat out lying about what
                       Rush said and wasting Senate time attacking a US
                       citizen's first amendment rights.  Have a nice day.
                       \_ First off, what proof do you have that the first
                          caller was a phony soldier, which is what Rush
                          clearly called him? Secondly, Media Matters is
                          hardly a Hillary created front org, it was founded
                          by David Brock, someone I personally know from
                          my time at Wired Magazine and it is funded by
                          Soros. As usual, you are either confused or
                          spreading misinformation.
                          Soros. As usual, you are spreading misinformation.
                          \_ The first caller was a phony soldier?  What are
                             you talking about?  I don't think you know.
                             Secondly, Brock is a Hillary minion.  Your knowing
                             him personally has nothing to do with anything.
                             Of coruse Hillary didn't fund it herself.  No one
                             said she did.  Sheesh.  Either way, Reid and MM
                             are still liars.  All this other stuff is
                             nonsense.
                             \_ Brock is hardly a Hillary minion, unless you
                                really believe that everyone to the left of
                                Mitt Romney is part of a vast Hillary
                                conspiracy. If anything, he is a Soros minion,
                                since Soros writes his paycheck. And Soros
                                is quite a long way from Hillary, believe me.
                                \_ You failed to answer about the first part
                                   about "first caller was a phony soldier".
                                   You don't know anything about this story.
                                   You're just a troll.  The rest of your
                                   post is nonsense.
                                   \_ In a simple reading of what Rush said,
                                      it is quite clear that he referred to
                                      the first caller as a phony soldier, yes.
                                      Your English language skills are
                                      deficient. You also don't know what the
                                      word "troll" means. Hint, it does not
                                      mean "anyone who disagrees with me."
                                      \_ sorry, I was listening to the show,
                                         not a cut up transcript.  He was
                                         clearly not referring to the caller.
                                         The rest of your ad hominem is not
                                         worth replying to since it is based
                                         on your complete lack of knowledge
                                         of the situation.
                                         \_ Calling someone a troll is fine,
                                            but saying "you don't know what
                                            a troll is" is ad hominem? You
                                            don't know what ad hominem means
                                            either.
                                \_ To both of you: Please show evidence that
                                   Soros or Hillary in any way financially
                                   supports MM.  "Drudge says so" is not
                                   evidence.
                                   \_ Sorry, I mistakenly thought this was
                                      common knowledge. It is pretty funny
                                      to watch the Right foam at the mouth
                                      over MM. They have been doing the
                                      same stuff for years, but they get
                                      seriously paranoid and nutty when
                                      anyone gives them a dose of their
                                      own medicine. Where does MM get its
                                      funding?
                                      \_ "common knowledge" to who? Ditto-
                                         heads? Answer your own question then
                                         come back and show us your results.
                                      \_ I've donated to them.
                                         \_ I've wasted money on stuff before,
                                            too.
                                            \_ Well, they seem to get you all
                                               hot and bothered, so it wasn't
                                               a total waste, now was it?
                                               \_ *laugh* the first troll who
                                                  is paying others to do it
                                                  for them.  You've taken the
                                                  Art Of Troll to a whole new
                                                  level.  Keep sending money.
                                                  Wow, you're dumb.
                                                  \_ Do you really think that
                                                     this is the *first* troll
                                                     to ever do that? What do
                                                     you think of Horowitz
                                                     and FrontPage Mag?
                                                     \_ I don't donate to
                                                        Horowitz or FPM or
                                                        MM or any other troll
                                                        orgs.  Why would you?
                                                        \_ You are begging
                                                           the question. Is
                                                           MM the *first*?
                                                           \_ Of course it
                        isn't but that is a side show.  Who cares which was
                        first?  I don't and have never donated to any of them.
                        Why would anyone donate to orgs who by their very
                        nature are designed to lie and created with that
                        purpose in mind?   Maybe that's your thing but I'll
                        send my charity to places that try to do good in the
                        world.
                        \_ Surprisingly enough, not everyone agrees with what
                           your definition of "do good in the world" means.
        \_ I'm sad anyone takes Rush seriously, ever, or pays any attention
           to him.
           \_ Talk to Reid about that, wasting time in the Senate on an
              entertainer.
        \_ ugh debating anything Rush spews is stupid.  http://MM.org is a Soros
           creation, not hillary.
           \_ From Rush to Drudge...  Can't you people factcheck anything?
              The zombie lies will never die...
           \_ Hillary herself said she helped create http://MM.org.  Here is the
              article, with a download of the audio of her saying it.
              http://csua.org/u/jqa
              \_ First off, this is not really what she said there, if you
                 pay attention carefully to the wording. She said she supports
                 it, which can mean practically anything. Secondly, do you
                 honesly believe every lie that a politician tells you?
                 Did you believe Dubya when he told you that Saddam had
                 WMD and a Nuclear program? Did you believe Gore when he
                 told you that he invented the Internet? The actual founder
                 of MM is famous for having written various anti-Clinton
                 pieces, including the Troopergate story (which was later
                 exposed as a lie, which was part of what led to Brock's
                 "conversion").
                 \_ So we have to carefully parse her words to figure out wtf
                    she's talking about?  Does she know what the meaning of
                    "is" is or was the previously resolved in court?  Sheesh.
                    \_ Politicians say bland, impenetrable things all the time,
                       deliberately using the ambiguity inherent in language
                       to tell the greatest number of listeners what they
                       think they want to hear, without actually saying
                       anything. Hillary is just better at it than most.
                       \_ I suppose it depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
                          I prefer leaders, of which we have a few, over your
                          politicians.  Saying she is a politician and there-
                          fore it is ok for her to dissemble is not ok.  You
                          might as well vote for Bush.
                          \_ I think it is obvious that I am no big fan of
                             Hillary either, but I don't see any of these
                             "leaders" running for President, from either
                             party. You might be able to convince me otherwise
                             with regards to McCain. Anyone else even
                             remotely close?
                             \_ Among the 'top candidates' as chosen by the
                                media, no, not really.  There are others
                                running we barely hear from.  Maybe there.
                                \_ Who?
                                   \_ Ron Paul, Huckabee, Dodd, and Gravel
                                      come to mind.  Hillary is an evil clown,
                                      Obama is a clown,  Rudy is evil, Edwards
                                      is a fraudster, Romney will say anything.
                                      I miss anyone at the top?
                                      \_ Huckabee talks out both sides of his
                                         mouth with regards to taxes, Dodd is
                                         bought at paid for by Wall Street, but
                                         bought and paid for by Wall Street, but
                                         perhaps the other two are all right.
                                         I don't know much about them except
                                         what I saw on the debate. They are
                                         both obviously willing to take
                                         upopular stances openly, so you have
                                         to respect that.
                 \_ ObBitchSlap: Gore never said he invented the Internet.
                    \_ Created vs invented
                       \_ "The Internet would not be where it is in the United
                           States without the strong support given to it and
                           related research areas by the Vice President in his
                           current role and in his earlier role as Senator."
                          -Vincent Cerf
                          \_ Because it behooves him to embarass the VP by
                             saying anything else?
                             \_ Because it's true.
                                \_ So you say.  What exactly did Gore do
                                   without which we wouldn't have google
                                   today?
                                   \_ High Performance Computing and
                                      Communication Act of 1991 which led to
                                      the National Information Infrastructure.
                                      Learn the history of your field, young
                                      Computer Scientist.
                                      \_ 'If it had been left to private
                                         industry, it wouldn't have happened,'
                                         Andreessen says of Gore's bill, 'at
                                         least, not until years later.'.  So,
                                         without Gore, we would be just like
                                         now but circa 2002?  With google,
                                         yahoo, web mail, browsers, etc, but
                                         no web 2.0 ajax outside of MS web
                                         outlook?  How is that different?
                                         You know the net existed then right?
                                         So he did something that eventually
                                         funded the browser a year later?  It
                                         sounds like the browser was already
                                         on it's way.  I'm not buying it,
                                         sorry.
                                         \_ this is one of the dumbest trolls
                                            I've ever seen.  -tom
                                            \_ why do you still post here?
                                         \_ Heh, w/o CCA and NII, we'd be
                                            just like ten years ago, but with
                                            BBSs. OTOH, we'd probably have
                                            kickass analog modems.
                                            \_ Hint: there was an internet
                                               before 1991.
                                               \_ Yes, and Usenet, and other
                                                  such, and you had to have
                                                  access through a school or
                                                  large company to get to it.
                                                  W/o public investment in
                                                  expanding access, you'd still
                                                  have to have an OCF account
                                                  to read your email.
                                                  \_ And as Andreesen said,
                                                     we'd be a few years
                                                     behind.  Call it five.
                                                     That puts us at 2002
                                                     which isn't a whole lot
                                                     different than today.  Or
                                                     maybe you're smarter than
                                                     he is.  We all know that
                                                     without government
                                                     nothing ever gets
                                                     invented.  Government is
                                                     the source of all
                                                     creativity and invention.
                                                     *boggle!*
                                                     \_ you're an idiot.
                                                     \_ Andreesen said "years
                                                        later": that could
                                                        mean decades. Also,
                                                        if not for gov. invest.
                                                        there'd've been no
                                                        .com bubble and no
                                                        commesurate boost in
                                                        private spending in
                                                        infrastructure. Prog.
                                                        w/o profit is slooow.
                                                        \_ the dotcom bubble
                                                           was a good thing?
                                                           ok whatever.
                                                           \_ It led to near-
                                                              ubiquity of the
                                                              Internet. I'd
                                                              say that's more
                                                              good than bad.
                                                              \_ I'd say it
                                                              didn't.  I'd say
                                                              more computers in
                                                              more homes did
                                                              that.
                                                     \_ The proto-Internet was
                                                        ARPAnet, run by the
                                                        DOD, and the DOD
                                                        decided it was no
                                                        longer going to
                                                        provide support for
                                                        civilian applications.
                                                        If the Internet
                                                        did not receive
                                                        funding at that point
                                                        in time, maybe
                                                        telecoms would have
                                                        done something, but
                                                        it would have been
                                                        done based on
                                                        the telecom model;
                                                        fee for service,
                                                        screw net neutrality.
                                                        The government is the
                                                        *only* entity which
                                                        could have created
                                                        the Internet as the
                                                        public resource we
                                                        know today.  -tom
                                                        \_ fee for service got
                                                           you... here it
                                                           comes....
                                                           SERVICE!  What a
                                                           shocker!  imagine
                                                           having a business
                                                           model where you
                                                           have to pay to get
                                                           stuff!  Dreadful!
                                                           \_ What are you, a
                                                              Free Market
                                                              troll, a ditto-
                                                              head troll, or
                                                              a bridge-troll?
                                                              \_ Anyone who
                                                              disagrees with
                                                              you must be a
                                                              troll.  You are
                                                              the source of all
                                                              truth.
                                                              \_ Man, took you
                                                                 long enough.
                                                           \_ Do you think the
                                                              Internet would
                                                              be better if it
                                                              worked more like
                                                              cell phone
                                                              networks?  -tom
                                                              \_ For some
                                                              definitions of
                                                              'better', yes. If
                                                              I could pay $5/m
                                                              to not get spam
                                                              I would save
                                                              money, for ex.
                                The telcos would sell you "spam  _/
                                blocking service" and then sell the
                                spammers "spam delivery guarantee
                                service" to get around the spam
                                blocking.  You'd have to buy a
                                specific computer to connect to AT+T's
                                network and it wouldn't work if you
                                wanted to switch to Sprint, and you'd
                                have a two year contract with a
                                penalty clause.  You'd also have a surcharge
                                to send mail to an off-network customer, or
                                it just wouldn't work at all.  The "cheap"
                                connectivity plan would involve huge fees for
                                any time you actually used the service, and
                                then they'd advertise "Tired of high fees?
                                Buy our unlimited plan for twice as much
                                money!"
                                Net neutrality and ubiquitous deployment is
                                a huge public benefit, and it could only
                                have happend through government action, and
                                Gore deserves a lot of credit for initiating
                                that action.  -tom
                                \_ You mean like how I can use my cell phone
                                   right now to call anyone and it doesn't
                                   cost me anything during nights and weekends
                                   and during the day the rate is dirt cheap,
                                   I don't get spam calls, I have a choice of
                                   hundreds of phones, and all this was brought
                                   to me by pure raw capitalist competition for
                                   my hard earned dollar.  Yeah, the phone
                                   system sure sucks.  If it was run by the
                                   government I wouldn't have a cell phone,
                                   unless I was a Senator or someone else
                                   'important' who gets a special health
                                   plan much different than what the proles
                                   get.  No thanks.  I'll pass on the socialist
                                   utopia phone system monopoly.  I'm old
                                   enough to remember Ma Bell being the only
                                   game in town.  A government monopoly on the
                                   phones would be no better.  Competition
                                   rules.
                                   \_ Uhh, you do realize that without the
                                      government heavily regulating large
                                      chunks of the phone industry your
                                      wonderful cell phone network would
                                      be a disaster, don't you?
                    \_ The actual quote was "During my service in the United
                       States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the
                       Internet."  which Declan (another Wired Alum) twisted
                       into invented.
                       \_ Hence "Created vs invented" as I said above.
                             \_ Brock is hardly a Hillary minion, unless