Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 48286
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2007/10/10-14 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:48286 Activity:high
10/10   Two suggestions for elections: 1) Voter lottery: each person who
        votes gets entered in a $10M lottery. 2) Electoral points: each voter
        gets to allocate a pool of "electoral points" to whichever candidates
        he or she prefers; say six "electoral points," so as to allow pyramid-
        ical ranking of 1, 2, and 3. Thoughts?
        \_ Obviously, voting is too difficult of a job that the average
           American does not want to participate in. We should outsource
           voting offshores. We should also offshore our politicians to
           reduce conflict of interests.
        \_ Yes.  Your understanding of math and civics is poor. -dans
           \_ dans: shitting in other people's cornflakes for the hell of it.
              \_ Others' responses below elaborate on my points nicely. -dans
        \_ 1) Don't like it. if they don't want to vote, let them not vote.
              Work on making voting easier. Absentee ballots are probably
              easier for most people but it's a bit of a hassle to get them.
           2) I think this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulative_voting
              I prefer IRV for a single-winner election because it doesn't
              make you compromise your support. Dividing points to create
              ranks is inferior to simply ranking them outright.
        \_ Lack of voting is a signal that is often interpreted as 'none of
           the above.'  -- ilyas
        \_ How about an IQ test or a test of knowledge? So many people who
           *do* vote don't know most of the issues and do more harm than
           good.
           \_ Or how 'bout a poll tax!  Do you know anything about our country,
              constitution, or history?
              The point that would be valid here is that since democracy is
              predicated on an educated populace, access to education is an
              inherent right.
              \_ Hah!  Do your research on rights.  Oh and on the difference
                 between a republic and a democracy.
              \_ Maybe we should abandon voting altogether and use the
                 jury selection method: random lottery selection per election
                 period. Apparently this is how ancient Athens appointed
                 officials.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
                 We could use multi-member districts and use approval voting
                 or cumulative voting etc. to let voters elect representatives
                 from a pool of randomly selected residents (somewhat akin to
                 how juries are approved). Perhaps the pool should be limited
                 to those who "sign up" to be in the pool, to avoid personal
                 liberty issues.
                 The advantage over direct democracy would presumably be that
                 dedicated officials would have the time to fully educate
                 themselves about the issues. The advantage over elected
                 reps is to remove the money-driven election apparatus and
                 get ordinary people rather than giant political parties.
                 \_ That's what we thought about representative democracy.
                    \_ It's still representative democracy. The method for
                       choosing representatives can vary.
            \_ Perhaps only Veterans should be allowed to vote. -Vet
               \_ There are many vets who aren't even citizens and cannot vote.
                  \_ I was under the impression that serving in the US
                     military guaranteed one citizenship.  Is this incorrect?
                     -dans
                     \_ You're thinking of Starship Troopers. There is fairly
                        recent legislation to expedite citizenship for members
                        of the military, but it's not automatic.
                     \_ We are increasingly going the route of Rome in its
                        later years, with an Army made up primarily of
                        non-citizens and mercenaries.
               \_ Perhaps only people of my ethnic/socio-economic/education/
                  geographic/professional background should be allowed to vote.
                  \_ At least one person got my point. It is disingenuous for
                     a bunch of CS geeks to argue for an IQ requirement for
                     voting. -Vet
                     \_ A basic civics requirement wouldn't be too much to
                        ask, would it?  "Here's a pamphlet in all 300 official
                        US languages.  Call this phone # toll free to hear it
                        read to you."
                        \_ Actually, yes it would be too much.  Education
                           requires funding and free time.  Making it a
                           requirement for voting makes it equivalent to
                           a poll tax.  Education is the silver bullet. A
                           more educated populace yields a "better" electorate
                           and, one would hope, a "better" democracy.  This
                           is what I speak about above, that the idiotic
                           replier doesn't understand.  --scotsman
                           \_ So making sure someone had read a flyer or
                              listened to a 2 minute explanation of our
                              government system on the phone or at the
                              polling place is too high a burden to ask a
                              voter?  If someone can' be bothered to do so
                              little to vote I don't want them voting.  I
                              think you're taking the poll tax concept way
                              too far.  Do you think non-citizens should be
                              allowed to vote?  If not, why not?  Is that not
                              a burden which puts a person in a position to
                              be a victim of government with no say?  Taxation
                              without representation, etc?
                              \_ Citizenship is a prerequisite for voting.
                                 I would not change that.  I think it's a
                                 very sad thing that non-citizens likely
                                 know more about US civics than natural born
                                 citizens.
                                 The solution is not to make people prove
                                 they're "capable" of voting.  It's to
                                 improve education.  As to non-citizens,
                                 I assume you mean people who are seeking
                                 citizenship, or people working (and taxed)
                                 under a visa.  In those cases, they are
`                                working under pre-agreed conditions.  If
                                 you're talking about undocumented people,
                                 I don't speak on that subject for lack of
                                 knowledge. --scotsman
                                 \_ My idea is about improving education
                                    "on the spot", if you will.
                                    \_ It's not the place for it, and I'd
                                       presume law and precedence on the
                                       matter would back me up. IANAL.
                                       http://epress.anu.edu.au/cw/mobile_devices/ch13s02.html
                                       http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-1004351/literacy-test
                                       \_ It isn't a literacy test.  You're
                                          way too focused on that part.  How
                                          do you expect your populace to get
                                          educated?
                                          \_ An educated populace doesn't
                                             solve the problem. You need
                                             to demonstrate you care
                                             enough to know the issues.
                                             Knowing a lot about EE
                                             doesn't mean you know diddly
                                             about Prop XYZ, or even read
                                             it. Therefore, I think some
                                             sort of test of knowledge
                                             would be useful. "Do you know
                                             what Prop XYZ is about?"
                                             \_ An EE degree != educated. I
                                                think it was clear that in
                                                the context of this discussion
                                                we're talking about a basic
                                                knowledge of civics, not about
                                                requiring a 4 year degree. Ok,
                                                let's try again: I want to see
                                                voters who know what they're
                                                voting for/about and I want
                                                their votes to count without
                                                going to direct nationwide
                                                polling.  What is your
                                                suggestion?
                                                \_ And I want a pony and a
                                                   blowjob, but wishing
                                                   doesn't make it so.
                                                   Actually, I'll probably get
                                                   the blowjob.  What is your
                                                   point? -dans,!PP
                                                   \_ If you have nothing to
                                                      contribute, don't.  I'll
                                                      stick to the validity of
                                                      my 'civics lesson
                                                      requirement' for voting
                                                      since no one here can
                                                      come up with a flaw in
                                                      it, just childish noise.
                                                      \_ Read a fucking
                                                         history book.
                                                         Reading requirements
                                                         for voters were
                                                         historically abused
                                                         to systematically
                                                         disenfranchise poor
                                                         and black voters.
                                                         Your civics lesson
                                                         nonsense would be
                                                         subject to similar
                                                         abuse.  Others have
                                                         made this point.  I
                                                         shouldn't have to do
                                                         it again.  Enjoy your
                                                         pony. -dans
                                                         \_ You are totally
                        ignoring what I have been saying.  It can be read, it
                        can be a phone call, it can be read to you, I don't
                        care what form it takes and you keep intentionally
                        ignoring that which makes you a troll.  If there is a
                        Hellen Keller voter out there who can't read, hear, or
                        anything else then we'll give her a pass on the
                        requirement.  You're just trolling.  I'm not tom, stop
                        trolling me like I'm him.
                                                         \_ So because
                                                            someone may abuse
                                                            a law that means
                                                            we should not
                                                            have it? The status
                                                            quo, with only a
                                                            few people at the
                                                            polls and many of
                                                            *those* having no
                                                            clue what they are
                                                            doing is not being
                                                            abused by
                                                            politicians?
                                                            \_ Hyperbole; we're
                                                               not there yet.
                                                               Also, as to yr
                                                               first q, when
                                                               there's a track
                                                               record, yes.
2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulative_voting
A points method ballot design like this one is the most common for governmental elections using cumulative voting. Voters are typically instructed to make only one mark per column. A points method ballot design like this one is the most common for governmental elections using cumulative voting. Voters are typically instructed to make only one mark per column. edit History Cumulative voting is used heavily in corporate governance, where it is mandated by many US states, and it was used to elect the Illinois House of Representatives from 1870 until its repeal in 1980. It was used in England in the late 19th century to elect school boards. In an equal and even cumulative ballot, as in Peoria, an individual's vote is fractionally divided evenly among all candidates for whom he or she indicates support. As the number of candidates increases, this can result in the need for computing sums of multiple fractions. In an equal and even cumulative ballot, as in Peoria, an individual's vote is fractionally divided evenly among all candidates for whom he or she indicates support. As the number of candidates increases, this can result in the need for computing sums of multiple fractions. bloc voting, where a voter can only award one vote per candidate, up to the number of candidates as seats. With cumulative voting, voters are permitted to not split their votes and instead concentrate them on a single candidate at full value. Ballots used for cumulative voting differ both in the ways voters mark their selections and in the degree to which voters are permitted to split their own vote. bloc voting, and votes are then automatically divided evenly among those preferred candidates. Voters are unable to specify a differing level of support for a more preferred candidate, giving them less flexibility although making it tactically easier to support a slate of candidates. A more common and slightly more complex cumulative ballot uses a points method. Under this system, voters are given an explicit number of points (often referred to as "votes" because in all known cases those number of points equals the number of seats to be elected) to distribute amongst candidates on a single ballot. Typically, this is done with a voter making a mark for each point beside the desired candidate. A similar method is to have the voter write in the desired number of points next to each candidate. Unless an appropriately programmed electronic voting system is used, however, this write-in ballot type burdens the voter with ensuring that his point allocations add up to his allotted sum. In typical cumulative elections using the points system, the number of points allotted to a voter is equal to the number of winning candidates. This allows a voter to potentially express some support for all winning candidates, however this need not be required to achieve proportional representation; egalitarian concerns of electoral equality, there is nothing in this system that requires each voter to be given the same number of points. If certain voters are seen as more deserving of influence, for example because they own more shares of stock in the company, they can be directly assigned more points per voter. Rarely, this explicit method of granting particular voters more influence is sometimes advocated for governmental elections outside of corporate management, perhaps because the voters are members of an oppressed group; currently, all governmental elections with cumulative voting award equal numbers of points for all voters. If each voter has the same number of points then typically the number of votes would be equal to the number of winners, although there is no reason why this should be required. While giving voters more points may appear to give them a greater ability to graduate their support for individual candidates, it is not obvious that it changes the democratic structure of the method. By concentrating their votes on a small number of candidates of their choice, voters in the minority can win some representation -- for example, a like-minded grouping of voters that is 20% of a city would be well-positioned to elect one out of five seats. England in the late 19th century to elect school boards. Starting in the late 1980s's, it has been adopted in a growing number of jurisdictions in the United States, in each case to resolve a lawsuit brought against bloc voting systems. With strategic voting, one can calculate how many shares are needed to elect a certain number of candidates, and to determine how many candidates a person holding a certain number of shares can elect. The formula to determine the number of shares necessary to elect a majority of directors is: X={S N \over D+1}+1 where X = number of shares needed to elect a given number of directors S = total number of shares at the meeting N = number of directors needed D = total number of directors to be elected The formula to determine how many directors can be elected by a faction controlling a certain number of shares is: N= {(X-1) * (D+1) \over S} with N becoming the number of directors which can be elected and X the number of shares controlled. Note that several sources include a variation of this formula using "X" rather than "(X-1)". Such a formulation does not assure you of having enough votes to elect a director if the "-1" is missing. Without the "-1" you will only be able to determine how many shares you must have to tie, not what you need to win. Of course not every shareholder votes perfectly every time, so the flawed formula may work in many practical instances despite it being conceptionally flawed and mathematically wrong. com, which eliminates the need for formulas and fractions. the readout states the number of directors the reader can elect, and vice versa. By entering the number of directors to be elected, the reader can find the number of shares necessary to elect one or any specified number of directors. Apple Computer's first meeting as a public company, held in January 1981, only a month after its historic IPO. provided a dramatic and surprising example of cumulative voting in action. Apple's bylaws had provided for cumulative voting, but this clause had never been used. Shareholders meetings had been small, exclusive gatherings in small, quiet rooms. Voting proxies were collected by mail and counted before the meeting. Product demos were not needed: major investors had already seen anything important. 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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
Aristotle relates equality and democracy: "Democracy arose from the idea that those who are equal in any respect are equal absolutely. All are alike free, therefore they claim that all are free absolutely... The next is when the democrats, on the grounds that they are all equal, claim equal participation in everything." Democracy" (literally meaning rule by the people) was in opposition to those supporting oligarchy (rule by a few) and Democracy was characterised by being run by the "many" (the ordinary people) who were allotted to the committees which ran government. Mogens Herman Hansen the citizen's court was superior to the assembly because the allotted members swore an oath which ordinary citizens in the assembly did not and therefore the court could annul the decisions of the assembly. Herodotus (one of the earliest writers on democracy) emphasise selection by lot as a test of democracy: "The rule of the people has the fairest name of all, equality (isonomia), and does none of the things that a monarch does. The lot determines offices, power is held accountable, and deliberation is conducted in public." Venice where sortition was used to select the holders of key political and administrative offices, sometimes combined with an element of qualification or election. Sortition proposals put forward in the modern world generally relate to the means for selecting a large legislative body (such as the US Congress) from among the adult population at large. Let the convention for deciding what is our common will be that we will accept the decision of a group of people who are well informed about the question, well-motivated to find as good a solution as possible and representative of our range of itnerests simply because they are statistically representative of us as a group. If this group is then responsible for carrying out what it decides, the problem of control of the execution process largely vanishes. Those directing the execution process are carrying out their own decisions. The may need a little prodding to keep them up to the mark, but there is no institutional basis for a conflict of interest between bodies responsible for making decisions and those responsible for execution. They have an overriding interest in showing that their decisions are practical and well-grounded. Fairness & Equality Sortition is inherently fair in that it ensures all citizens have an equal chance of entering office irrespective of any bias in society and implies an equal society where there is no meaningful difference between all the members of the society which would make one more suitable than another. Less corruptible than elections Because processes can be developed to ensure that selection is completely fair. For example, Athenians used complex allotment procedures with complicated machine to allot officers. electoral politics in the twenty-first century argue that the process of election by vote is subject to manipulation by money and other powerful forces and because legislative elections give power to a few powerful groups they are believed to be less democratic system than selection by lot from amongst the population. As a result political members of the UK population were represented by one MP per 1800 of those belonging to a party whilst those who did not belong to a party had one MP per 19million individuals who did not belong to a party. edit Disadvantages Sortition does not discriminate The most common argument against pure sortition (that is, with no prior selection of an eligible group) is that it does not discriminate those selected and takes no account of particular skills or experience that might be needed to effectively discharge the particular offices filled. pilot due to the specialist skills that those roles require. The same is argued for many political offices as under a system based on election, it is thought unlikely that those manifestly lacking the requisite skills will be elected to office. taught his companions to despise the established laws by insisting on the folly of appointing public officials by lot, when none would choose a pilot or builder or flautist by lot, nor any other craftsman for work in which mistakes are far less disastrous than mistakes in statecraft." Edmund Burke in his essay Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790): "There is no qualification for government but virtue and wisdom, actual or presumptive. Everything ought to be open, but not indifferently, to every man. no mode of election operating in the spirit of sortition or rotation can be generally good in a government conversant in extensive objects. Because they have no tendency, direct or indirect, to select the man with a view to the duty or to accommodate the one to the other." However, supporters of sortition argue that there is nothing in the structure of elected government (or of dictatorships, we might add) that suggests representatives will be any more intelligent or capable than those they represent. Moreover, political decision making is arguably not a craft or science, as Socrates suggests. There is not one correct answer to a political question, as in science or mathematics, but rather politics is a question of values, interests and aims. In a democracy, the values, interests and aims that should be satisfied are those of the populace, and therefore the populace is arguably qualified by definition. Certainly, there is room for expertise in formulating the process whereby people's aims will be achieved, but not in deciding those aims. A randomly selected house could listen to the advice of experts, as elected houses do now. Sortition can put in power people with minority views Some of the officials selected by sortition may hold views that greatly differ from those common in the population. For example, an unusually rich official may be selected, and once in power may try to use it to change a tax system in a way that will benefit himself and other rich individuals, in a manner that is opposed by, and possibly detrimental to, individuals who are not as wealthy. The voting process creates interest, debate, learning, and community The process of voting in itself has value; it creates interest and public debate on the future direction of public policy; it may also encourage deeper learning on the issues at stake; it also makes people less isolated by creating various organizations and parties. Voting confers legitimacy Those who see voting as expressing the "consent of the governed", maintain that voting is able to confer legitimacy in the selection. According to this view, elected officials can act with greater authority than when randomly selected. A counter-argument is that by consenting to sortition as used for a jury, the public consents to this form of selection. Sortition is a form of compulsion Unless the system of sorition allows people to opt out of serving, measures for compelling people to serve need to be instituted. Enthusiasm of the representatives In an elected system, the representatives are to a degree self-selecting for their enthusiasm for the job. Under sortition the individuals are not chosen for their enthusiasm. Many electoral systems assign to those chosen a role as representing their constituents; Elected representative choose to accept any additional workload; voters can also choose those representatives most willing to accept the burden involved in being a representative. Individuals chosen at random have no particular enthusiasm for their role and therefore may not make good advocates for a constituency. edit Methods Before the random selection can be done, the pool of candidates must be defined. Systems vary as to whether they allot from eligible volunteers, or from the membership or population at large. The selection method should be carefully designed in order to preserve public confidence that it has not been rigged. Using it, multiple specific sources of random numbers (eg lotteries) are selected in advance, and an algorithm is defined for selecting the winners based on those random numbers. When the random numbers become available, anyone can calculate the winners. Consensus Conferences give ordi...
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epress.anu.edu.au/cw/mobile_devices/ch13s02.html
Next The Mississippi precedent: the education test of 1890 In The American Commonwealth, Bryce canvassed possible solutions to the Negro problem, including the feasibility of deporting Blacks - all eight million - to Africa. He also drew attention to the Mississippi legislation of 1890, which for the first time used an education test' to exclude otherwise qualified Black voters from the electoral roll. Prevented by the 14th and 15th Amendments from disenfranchising Blacks on the grounds of race, the southern state of Mississippi led the way among self-styled white men's countries in deploying an education test - in this case a comprehension test - to achieve racial exclusion. The law required that to be registered a voter shall be able to read any section of the Constitution, or be able to understand the same when read to him, or to give a reasonable interpretation thereof'. The requirement that voters demonstrate a degree of literacy was not itself new. The importance of literacy and education to the exercise of self-government was central to republican understandings of citizenship in the United States, as Matt Jacobsen has pointed out and, it was the northern states of Connecticut (1855) and Massachusetts (1857) that first stipulated that electors should be able to read the Constitution. Massachusetts also required that electors be able to write their names. The 1890 Constitutional Convention of Mississippi marked a new departure, however, in the recommendation of an education test as a means to effect racial discrimination. The Supreme Court of Mississippi commented on the ways in which Blacks' racial characteristics rendered them unfit to exercise the suffrage: Within the field of permissible action under the limitations proposed by the Federal Constitution, the Convention swept the field of expedients to obstruct the exercise of suffrage by the Negro race. He may permit a halting reading by one and require fluent reading by the other. He may let illegible scratching on paper suffice for the signature of one and require of the other a legible handwriting. But race discriminations in such cases rest with the officers; The legislation had the desired effect, as Stephenson reported: In one county in Mississippi, with a population of about 8,000 whites and 11,700 Negroes in 1900, there were only twenty-five or thirty qualified Negro voters in 1908, the rest being disqualified, it is said, on the educational test. In another county, with 30,000 Negroes, only about 175 were registered voters ... As a general rule, taking the country at large, about one person in five is a male of voting age. In Iowa four out of five possible voters have actually voted in the last four elections; in Georgia, a State of nearly the same population, the proportion is one to six ...
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www.britannica.com/eb/topic-1004351/literacy-test
As whites came to dominate state legislatures once again, legislation was used to strictly circumscribe the right of African Americans to vote. Poll taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clauses, whites-only primaries, and other measures disproportionately disqualified African Americans from voting. The result was that by the early 20th century nearly all... A 1917 law required Powell's father to pass a literacy test to enter the US from Jamaica. It required him to read 40 words from the Bible's 7th Psalm. Powell paid only $10 to attend the City College of New York, whose mission was to help give poor and new immigrants access to higher education. Risks in implementing a test-based accountability system; Impact of incentives and disincentives on the noncognitive goals of schooling; Comparison of the importance of values and academic subjects for US citizens. US President Andrew Johnson began to implement his own version of Reconstruction while Congress was in recess. Johnson quickly invited rebel states back into the Union and pardoned scores of ex-Confederate leaders. Thaddeus Stevens, the most influential Radical in Congress, watched from his home state of Pennsylvania and fumed. When Congress returned to Washington in December 1865, the Radicals were ready to pounce. Their first step was to refuse seats to the Southern leaders Johnson had welcomed back to the Capitol. By November 1866, the Republicans enjoyed a powerful two-thirds majority in the US Congress. Yet Radical Republicans feared that as long as Johnson remained president, Reconstruction was in danger. Remarks by the President at Portland State University Commencement. Essential Speeches, 2003, p0 Presents a speech by United States President Bill Clinton, given at Portland State University's commencement in Portland, Oregon on June 13, 1998. John F Kennedy, the 1960 Election, and Georgia's UnpledgedElectors in the Electoral College. Number of popular and electoral votes received by presidential candidates John F Kennedy and Richard M Nixon; Views of Georgia Governor Ernest Vandiver on the agenda of the electoral votes.