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| 5/23 |
| 2007/10/10-14 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:48285 Activity:high |
10/10 Is it just my imagination or it seems like the new Civic is bigger
than my 1987 Accord?
\_ I don't know, but my impression is that car models generally get
bigger and bigger over time. The 2008 Accord is classified as
full-sized sedan.
\_ Yeah, I've noticed that too. I have a theory.
1. People buy car for price and fuel effeciency.
2. People like car, but give feed back they "wish it was larger"
3. Company makes car larger.
4. Repeat until car is discontinued because it no longer has 1.
\_ Oh, and the only exception I know of is the discontinued
Celica, where the last model year one seemed smaller than the
1980 one which my dad has when I was a kid. -- PP
\_ Yeah, each model gets bigger and bigger but they introduce
new tiny cars to fill the gap (like the Fit).
\_ 5. American people get fatter and fatter but want the
same car.
\_ Honda's fucked. Civic Hybrid sucks. The new Accord's butt ugly.
What else? Lame management and PM; the souped up Accord Hybrid
is one of the many major fuck ups. What the hell were they
thinking when they created the Accord Hybrid monster?
http://cars.ign.com/articles/731/731869p1.html
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/03/no-hybrid-for-the-new-2008-honda-accord-diesel-in-2009
\_ Diesels kick ass, now that we have better fuel standards I hope we see diesel
everything.
\_ I hope we see diesel hybrid.
\_ I think the batteries and expense are not really worth it.
There's more to the picture than just max mpg.
\_ Diesel and electric engines are about as complementary
as you can imagine two technologies to be. Diesels
are best at providing steady power at its optimal rpm
forever, electrics are good at variable loads, but lack
range. Most heavy industrial equipment, along with
ships and locomotives uses some sort of diesel/electric
hybrid system. The only thing stopping its adoption in
cars is cost. Diesel/electric hybrid cars are already
being developed in Europe; Toyota is likely to develop
one as well now that they have access to Isuzu engines.
Diesels by themselves are very efficient, the only thing
preventing their wide adoption in the States is
brain-dead legislation. Clean diesels compliant with
US emission standards will likely lose 15-20%
efficiency. My opinion of hybrid technology has
improved considerably after doing some reading on the
subject. -- ilyas
\_ The best technology is a society that does not
waste resources (e.g. stop living in the suburbs)
\_ I have a better idea! How about I live where
I want, and you go fuck yourself!
\_ I have an even better idea! How about I
kill all the selfish assholes who are
destroying our planet.
\_ Out of all the problems which beset this
vale of tears we call Earth you want to
hunt down suburb-dwellers? You are fucking
retarded.
\_ At least we're not so retarded as to
buy a fucking lame Accord Hybrid.
Retard. !op
\_ Yes, a Hummer would be so much
better. Why trash anyone who is
willing to support hybrid
technology?
\_ Hybrid Humvee:
http://www.csua.org/u/jpb
350hp. 0-50mph in 7sec. 18mpg.
Climbs 60% grade at 17mph and
fords 5ft of water.
\_ You are under the mistaken
impression the only point of
hybrids is reducing
emissions and increasing
efficiency. You are wrong.
You are also stupid.
\_ What are the other reasons?
\_ Maybe you should read this
thread. Just a thought.
\_ Huh? Where did you get that
impression? The stealth mode
in the Hybrid Humvee above is
already one reason outside
the two you listed. Another
one is that hybrid can
submerge under water
completely (not too deep, of
course, or else it floats)
w/o a snorkeling kit which
gives away its position. --PP
\_ If so, great. I'm just skeptical of hybrids. I feel
the tax breaks and HOV-lane access were bullshit.
\_ Well, using tax breaks and HOV-lanes for
efficient vehicles is bad enough, but what was
even worse was how, say, a Jetta TDI didn't
qualify for either while essentially matching
a Prius in terms of efficiency (and not having
the complicated manufacture). Hamfisted government
efforts aside, I think hybrids are fundamentally
a good idea, for three reasons. Firstly, hybrids
decouple the generation of power from consumption
of power. This is fundamentally sound
engineering, which is why heavy industry is using
hybrid systems already without any environmental
considerations whatsoever. Secondly, hybrids
replace multiple mechanical systems with
electronics, which, while more complicated than
mechanical systems, are also more reliable.
Priuses are bulletproof, despite being perhaps
the most complex mass produced passenger car
in history. Finally there's the touted
incremental development path towards EV.
Personally, I think the only technology which
isn't ready is energy storage, and mass hybrids
encourage R&D in this area. -- ilyas
I have other reasons I'm sort of biased against
them and the practice of spending lots of money on
cars and treating cars as disposables to be kept only
a few years, but it's late and I'm not up to clearly
formulating these weird ideas.
\_ I think the jury is still out on how
bulletproof the Prius is.
\_ Um, the Prius has been out on the road
since 1997. -- ilyas
\_ And how long have most internal
combustion engines been out on the
road? 10 years is not really a long
time. I'd give it 10 more years at
least before making such a
declaration.
\_ 2009 Prius: http://www.csua.org/u/jo0 --!OP
\_ That's a picture of the concept car, not
of the prius. The third gen prius looks
almost the same as the second gen prius.
In fact, toyota wanted to use lithium
batteries in the third gen, but couldn't
get around the safety issues.
\_ Please scroll down to the text about
the 2009 Prius.
\_ Yeah but if it's so great, it shouldn't need
special government incentives. The batteries
are indeed the main issue: I don't hear so much
about the cost, environmental impact, and
longevity of the batteries. I have admittedly
not studied the issue. I always liked the
flywheel storage concept but I guess it isn't
practical yet, maybe someday.
\_ I hate batteries and like flywheels too.
Toyota does recycle/refurbish most batteries
(it makes economic sense: a lot of battery
components are expensive and can be reused,
and even nickel is getting expensive now).
\_ Government incentives kick-start the process.
At least, that is the theory.
\_ Why is decoupling the generation of power from
consumption of power good? I'd think there is
energy loss both when charging the batteries
with generated power, and when discharging the
batteries to do work. Are these two steps
actaully very efficient?
\_ Because some engines are good at operating
at variable loads, while others are good at
operating at constant loads. Any time
there's a conversion, there's loss, of
course. But the trade off is (apparently)
worth it, since you recover the losses by
leaving diesels in their optimal regime
all the time. Most heavy industry setups
don't even use batteries, but
capacitors (or in some cases even
flywheels). Decoupling is an old idea --
it's why we have powerplants. -- ilyas
\_ I think the main thing is combustion engines
(esp. diesel) can be made to work very
efficiently within certain narrow operating
parameters (RPM etc). So generating it this
way gets the most out of your dino juice.
Battery storage and discharge must be pretty
efficient compared to combustion losses.
(or what ilyas said).
\_ You forgot about the awesomness of the Fit.
\_ Yes, it is a lot bigger. The Accord used to be a small car. The
new Corolla is like a Camry, too.
\_ '87 accord was a 'compact'. Has grown to mid-size and now full-size
(US version). Civic went from "sub-compact" to "compact" around
2000. So yea, it probably is bigger. |
| 5/23 |
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| cars.ign.com/articles/731/731869p1.html But many cars, such as the Honda Accord Hybrid, make our jobs difficult. It does everything it's supposed to do well, but it does so without being exceptionally stellar. It's hard to get excited about a car that feels no more exciting than your average washing machine. To be honest, it's quite shocking that the Accord Hybrid feels so... We really liked the 6-speed manual Accord V6 coupe because it was everything that its competition wasn't: sporty and fun-to-drive. When the people at Honda told us that the Accord Hybrid sedan's hybrid system was designed more for a performance boost than overall fuel savings, we imagined it would be a "poor-man's" version of the Lexus GS 450h. However, rather than being an affordable gentlemen's sports sedan, driving this large Honda hybrid shows that its appearance and driving dynamics were tuned more for the suburban-dwelling, kid-raising, grocery-getting mom. The Accord does have some very clean, if uninspired, lines -- which means the Accord Hybrid looks just like a basic sedan. There's nothing about its appearance that's eye-catching, stunning, unusual or quirky. Considering that the Accord Coupe looks reasonably attractive (especially when clad with Honda-made HFP parts), it's kind of a bummer to see this "performance-oriented" hybrid look so sedate. If one is going to pay a $3,000 premium for a high-end "sporty" Accord, one would expect to see the car sport some kind of factory-installed (tasteful) visual cues that set it apart from its entry-level counterparts. The one positive thing about the Accord's simple and clean (and average) shape is that a few tasteful aero pieces can do a lot to make the car look really good. Only you tuner guys will get this next statement, but you know how Honda was able to make the ugly-as-sin EP Civic hatch turn into the attractive-and-sporty-looking Type R with just a few aero pieces? We feel that if Honda tried that with this car, it would have a pure stunner. The interior of the Accord Hybrid sedan is just like the outside, cleanly functional and not-at-all offending to the senses. Of course, by not offending anyone's senses, the Accord's interior is also nothing special. Our test car came equipped with the standard luxury features -- all in a dark gray/black finish: in-dash touch-screen nav unit, heated leather seating surfaces and so forth, but nothing really "wows" us. This interior is very acceptable and appliance-like in its ease of use and practicality, but it feels as if it was designed by a committee of retired PTA members. The Accord's cabin doesn't look as cool as the ones found in the Fit or Civic. It also doesn't feel as luxurious as the cockpit of a fully-loaded TSX. As always, the Accord's interior boasts a high level of fit-and-finish, but that can't change the fact that we feel the design is just average and middle-of-the-road. We could forgive all of these features if the "performance-minded" Accord Hybrid was a performance wolf in fuel-efficient sheep's clothing -- but it isn't. It has a nice, comfortable and quiet ride, and it is sure to be more than acceptable to the people who want a gas/electric Accord. The electric-assisted V6 is said to be good for 255 horsepower, but as it's mated to a power (and performance)-robbing automatic transmission, the Accord Hybrid doesn't feel sporty off the line. This sedan also doesn't like to keep a firm grip on twisty roads and freeway on-ramps (likely due to the car's OE-supplied all-season tires), further robbing this hybrid of any sporty feeling it could have had. But it drives like a fine family sedan -- like a Camry, for example. There's nothing offensive about the way the car behaves, and it's rather comfortable, but there's really nothing memorable about the drive. In fact, one can practically forget about the drive while driving the Accord. Great for people that only care about getting from point A to point B -- you know, the type of people that view their car as nothing more than a large appliance. "It's not supposed to be a race car -- it's supposed to save gas!" According to our Accord's on-board computer, we averaged just under 26 miles per gallon in mixed driving conditions. That's not bad fuel economy by any means -- in fact, that's on par with the combined MPG of the four-cylinder Accord. As it stands, the Honda Accord Hybrid sedan is outstanding at being an average car. It delivers average styling, average comfort and average performance -- but at an above average cost. Which brings us to the question, why buy an Accord Hybrid Sedan? The only reason we can think of is that people feel really good about themselves after spending $5,000 more for a car with a "hybrid" badge on it. Our recommendation: save the cash and pick up a regular Accord. |
| www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/03/no-hybrid-for-the-new-2008-honda-accord-diesel-in-2009 Honda After the rather dismal sales of the current generation Accord hybrid, Honda has apparently decided not to offer a hybrid version of the new 2008 Accord due this fall. Honda will focus the hybrid applications on smaller cars like the Civic and the new hybrid-only model they have coming for 2009. Larger models like the Accord will instead use Honda's new fifty-state diesel engine that is coming in 2009. When the hybrid Accord was introduced in 2004 the IMA system was paired up with the V-6 engine instead of the smaller four cylinder. The more expensive Accord was marketed as more of a performance upgrade than an efficiency improvement which proved to be a tough sell. Editorial: Green cars for the middle-class: A market segment left wanting? Im love the Insight, and the next "version" of it would be awesome! Diesel as clean as gas without having to add urea to the car. bioburner 3 I think it is great that Honda will offer Diesels, I hope that they release it sooner than 2009, all we have right now is European offerings, we need some cost effective solutions. Arnold Ramsaran 4 Now the BIG question: How will Honda's mileage-robbing diesel emission controls react when we put B20 or B100 into the tank? There won't be any sulphur and not nearly as much particulate matter to scrub - bet the computers get confused! Same probably goes for VW's 2008 "Clean Diesel" engine... Bio_Homebrewer Add your comments Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry. Email addresses are never displayed, but they are required to confirm your comments. When you enter your name and email address, you'll be sent a link to confirm your comment, and a password. To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted -- no need to use <p> or <br> tags. |
| www.csua.org/u/jpb -> evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html Representatives of the news media assembled on the grounds of Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida for a demonstration of a new hybrid-electric HMMWV (Humvee). In a steady drizzle, a standard diesel-powered "Hummer" rumbled into view and slowly approached the damp, but curious group of reporters. It quickly became apparent that something was amiss, this wasn't the vehicle the press had come to see. Instead, with their attention momentarily diverted, the real hybrid-electric Hummer silently crept up from behind to within inches of the crowd before the announcer asked the assembly to turn around to view what some are calling the Army's new "Corvette in Camouflage." You couldn't have asked for a more effective demonstration of the stealth capabilities of this one-of-a-kind prototype military vehicle. The result of a joint engineering effort by a consortium including the US Army's Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command (TAC), DARPA, the Southern Coalition for Advanced Transportation, Unique Mobility, PEI Electronics and others, the hybrid-electric HMMWV cost less than $2 million dollars in development costs, according to Daniel Tudor, senior program manager for PEI Electronics of Huntsville, Alabama. Corvette in Fatigues While the Hybrid-Hummer looks like the standard Humvee on the exterior, complete with olive-drab and flat black camouflage, underneath its workaday fatigues is a remarkable power plant capable to surprising acceleration and speeds up to 80 miles per hour, a good 10 miles faster than the standard issue HMMWV Its zero-to-fifty mph time is seven seconds, twice as fast as the stock model. It can climb a 60% grade at 17 mph, two and half times faster than stock. In addition, the vehicle gets twice the fuel economy at 18 mpg enabling it to carry a smaller fuel tank, while retaining the same 300 miles range. The vehicle can also ford streams up to a depth of five feet without swamping or stalling. The only trade-off of the current prototype design is a 540 pound loss of payload, presumably taken by the heavy lead/acid batteries. The hybrid version has a rated payload of 1700 pounds, while the stock version is 2,240 pounds. Small Humvee The heart of this new generation military vehicle is its hybrid-electric propulsion system consisting of four 55kW brushless DC electric motors (peaked rated to 75kW), one for each wheel and a 19 liter turbo-charged diesel engine-generator set capable of turning out 55kW of electric power. The diesel-generator can provide power either to the drive train or to the vehicle's 288 VDC advanced lead/acid battery pack. Rated at 350 hp in hybrid mode, the combination gives the Hybrid-Hummer its sports car like performance, as well as its stealth capabilities which is activated by throwing a switch on the console between the two front seats. Going stealth turns off the turbo-diesel and draws power from the 85 amp hour battery pack giving the Humvee a 20 mile range in silent mode (40 miles using NiMH batteries). This virtually eliminates the vehicle's infrared signature, making it nearly invisible to enemy night vision devices. Inside Humvee's Cabin Even with its turbo-diesel/generator running, the Hybrid-Hummer is amazingly quiet, both inside and out. EV World's editor in chief was able to video tape inside the vehicle during its last demonstration drive at the 14th Electric Vehicle Symposium and easily carried on a conversation with the driver. But for the crunch of the tires on the pavement, you can't hear this trooper coming. The noise you hear on the video is from an auxiliary generator powering lights at nearby exhibit tents. Another advantage of individual electric drive to each wheel is the Humvee can be made to turn like a tank, locking or reversing the wheels inside the turn, giving the vehicle an unmatched turning radius. The system also lends itself readily to robotic adaptation, letting the vehicle tackle missions too dangerous for manned operations, such as traversing a mine field. The Army is also working on other hybrid-electrical military vehicles including the M113 and the Bradley fighting vehicle as part of a $43 million development effort funded by DARPA. In addition to improved performance on the battlefield, hybrid-electrics can provide temporary electric power during natural disasters, such as emergency power to a hospital or crisis command center. A hint of where the Army sees this technology going came from a TAC representative who indicated that the Army was working on an all-electric replacement for the M1-A Abrams battle tank complete with an electric canon. Clearly, the battlefield of the future will not only find stealthy aircraft in the skies and stealthy ships at sea, but an equally silent and nearly invisible army on land. For The Latest News, Interviews and Previews of Electric Vehicles... |
| www.csua.org/u/jo0 -> www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/third_generation_toyota_prius_in_2008.htm Top 3 Reasons to buy a hybrid car Hybrid cars, trucks, and SUVs: All vehicles hybrid Is this the third generation Prius, called hybrid x at the geneva auto show. According to Toyota, the Third Generation Toyota Prius will be a 2009 model that should be available for sale some time in 2008. Also, the third generation Toyota Prius will include lithium-ion batteries, significantly increasing the performance and fuel efficiency of this third generation Prius. In recent months Toyota has indicated that its lithium-ion batteries were ready to power the next generation of Toyota hybrids. In the past few weeks, however, rumors have surfaced that Toyota might delay the use of lithium. In fact, the latest rumors claim that lithium-powered hybrids from Toyota are now at least 1 to 2 years away from reality due to safety precautions. Originally, the 2008 or 2009 Toyota Prius, utilizing the Third Generation Hybrid Synergy Drive - a hybrid powertrain that was predicted to be half the weight of the current Prius powertrain - was predicted to reduce hybrid technology costs. The second generation Prius provided a significant increase in performance as well compared to the first generation Prius, increasing battery power by 15 times. Expectations for the third generation Prius have been much greater. Thus far it has been stated that the new drive, "will cut prices for eco-friendly vehicles, reduce fuel costs and slash production expenses, company sources said." Of course, it is hard to know if all of Toyota's predictions were based on the belief that lithium would be the battery powering the third generation Hybrid Synergy Drive. "We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery," CEO Katsuaki Watanabe told Business Week, just a couple of months ago. Then, shortly thereafter, the rumors against such a lithium move hit the blogosphere. So, what happens to the Third Generation Prius if it is not lithium powered? Many analysts have noted that once hybrid batteries moved from NiMH batteries to lithium-ion, everything about hybrids begins to change. Thus, if this doesn't happen, does little about hybrids change? More important, will a lack of a lithium-powered Prius be a major setback for Toyota? Will rumors of a non-plug-in, 100 mpg Prius prove to be unfounded? It seems hard to imagine that the next generation Prius could achieve 100 mpg, without some sort of plug-in functionality - which is a possibility, but Toyota has steadily maintained that plug-ins are not yet feasible, especially without lithium batteries. Then again, perhaps the 100 mpg Prius will be a derivative Prius, such as a smaller, city Prius. Toyota has claimed that the future could hold multiple derivatives of the Prius, and a larger Prius also seems possible. At this point there are simply more questions than answers regarding the 2009 Toyota Prius. Still, at Toyota's current pace, the fourth generation of hybrids could possibly achieve prices in the same range as conventional vehicles, but offering significant gains in fuel efficiency. Imagine being able to buy either a 30 mpg conventional vehicle or a 100 mpg hybrid version for the same price. Of course, you might not even have to wait until the fourth generation. The third generation Toyota Prius - by most conservative estimates - should still be 20 to 30 percent more efficient than the current Prius, and if a smaller, city Prius is offered, 70 or 80 mpg might still be possible, even without lithium. Let's just hope a new Prius does hit the streets in late 2008 or early 2009. You know, the one where they announce well in advance, the upcoming "Real Meal Deal" that everyone just has to have, then keep potential purchasers on hold waiting for the promised sweet thing to appear. Well it's working with this potential buyer - I may just wait and see for another year. I think that Toyota is even a little confused itself about the third generation Prius. Toyota has maintained that the third generation Prius will be more fuel efficient and cheaper. Part of the problem for automakers has been waiting to see if lithium-ion batteries can develop fast enough to replace NiMH batteries before the next generation. Thus, it seems many automakers are in a sort of speculative mode at this point in time. Nonetheless, even without lithium-ion batteries, I think Toyota can still make big gains with the Prius in the next generation. com, a process common with many Internet providers, especially news providers. Thus, the original link had stopped working, as will the current link, eventually. A simple search of the Asahi website reproduced similar results regarding the 2008 Prius. Current reports from Asahi claim, "Toyota is developing a third-generation hybrid system, which will be smaller and lower-priced than the current system. Consequently, Toyota will eventually add the Hybrid Synergy Drive to all of its hybrids after this Drive is developed. If it will be developed by 2008, then one would assume it could make it into a Toyota Prius by 2008. So, yes, I am speculating that the Third Generation Toyota Prius might be available sometime in 2008, though probably as a 2009 model. I would gladly buy the Prius X Hybrid if given the chance today! "No-matter who killed the electric car I think its about time they resurect it!" I think this vehicle could really make a difference in New York. Where they are looking at ways to reduce the pollutants of the environment by 30%. Word that Toyota is coming out with a better and cheaper prius soon gives me hope that regular folks (not just rich people) can drive environmentally responsible cars also. By the way, the windows are too small in previous Prius models. Please redesign it to have larger windows and be more like a station wagon (please). it gives me hope that the ordinary family can afford to be ecologically responsible also. I want, however, for the new Prius to be more like a station wagon with larger storage space and much larger windows. This is a one car household that needs to haul around lots and lots of people, pets, stuff... The Prius should be offered in a more family friendly shape. The windows on older Prius models are ugly and too small. The back end is wasted space that could easily be enlarged by making the rear more boxy. Anyway, I applaud Toyota to dare to be different and give US consumers something other manufacturers are too cowardly to embrace. The next next generation will not be litium-ion, the have proven not to be sturdy enough. Named A, B and C A will be smaller, B will be the same size as the 07, and the C will be larger and more conventional. Yes, there are rumors that Toyota might delay the use of lithium on its hybrids, a story also posted on this blog. Yes, Toyota has mentioned the possibility of derivative Prii, such as a city Prius, another story also mentioned on this blog. Auto Editors of Consumer Reports recently communicated at How Things Work that the next generation Prius won't happen until model year 2010. I'm buying my third Prius during the summer of 2007 and will then buy the 3rd Gen Prius in late 2009. I was waiting for the 2008 Lithium ION battery Model to buy a car, Specifically the Prius. I have just decided that I will not buy a new Prius if it can not get at least 80MPG or better. I refuse to give up my money for a car, if we are not making progress toward a reduction in Gasoline consumption. I was ready to buy the 2008 Prius when I heard it would probably be able to achieve 80MPG I have just decided that I will wait to buy the next Hybrid that does reach 80 MPG.. But I refuse to spend 1 cent more on a vehicle that can not get at least to the 80MPG mark. Oh and by the way, the next Generation of vehicles, somewhere around say 2010-2012 had better double the mileage to at least 160 MPG.. We need to send a message to the Automobile Manufacturers (Even Toyota), that we will not accept... "We the consumer will not spend our money on vehicles that have not made progress toward the 100 MPG mark. We have decided that it is time for the Manufacturers to start protecting their profits by protecting our dwindling natural resources". I hope you make a s... |