9/26    Another win for the Constitution and another blow to the Bush Admin:
        http://www.csua.org/u/jll (Yahoo News)
        \_ The Bush admin is dead.  Who cares?  Look to the future, don't
           dwell on the past.  Do you have any idea what the front runners in
           both parties are saying about this?
           \_ unfortuantely, Bush is not dead.  He is threating veto on the
              spending bill if it exceed its limit.  Rubber stamp Democrats
              for some reason doesn't want to put Iraq war spending as part of
              of the spending bill.  They should just cut the war funding
              completely if things are not going their way.
              \_ Bush is dead.  He vetos.  So what?  The Democrats are not
                 rubber stamps for the war.  The reason they keep funding it
                 is because they want us to stay there.  They should do a lot
                 of things but I don't put weight on what they should do, I
                 look at what they've actually done, which is fund the war to
                 every penny Bush has asked.  Anyway, none of this means
                 anything either way since the Democrats are doing nothing
                 different from what Bush has been doing.
                       \_ what is your proposal, then?  we have 70-100 Iraqi
                          civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total
                          of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally.
                          So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right
                          now.  My ears are all yours.
                          \_ What was unclear?  We leave Iraq.  Unfortunately
                             our leadership in the Congress is too pathetic
                             and cowardly to do what we put them there to
                             do.  Or more likely, I believe that *want* us
                             to stay there.  They aren't putting up *any*
                             sort of fight against Bush, an unpopular lame
                             duck President.  I can only conclude they want
                             us in Iraq.  They = Democrats, if that was
                             unclear.
                             \_ If you think the Dems are pathetic and cowardly
                                for not "putting up *any* sort of fight
                                against Bush," and are thus unworthy of office,
                                that must mean that you think the GOP are
                                murderous traitors who ought to be hanged, yes?
                                \_ Hanged?  No.  We don't hang politicians for
                                   failed policy.  Out of office?  Sure, of
                                   course.  That is the nature of our system.
                                   But I don't see the Dems saying they'll do
                                   anything substantially different if they
                                   have the executive office and they own both
                                   the house and senate and have done nothing.
                                   They aren't even very good at doing nothing.
                                   \_ Hyperbole aside, you've seen that the
                                      GOP are criminally negligent and corrupt.
                                      Surely even Do Nothing would be a better
                                      polict than the current polciy of
                                      screwing the American people over.
                 \_ The reason they keep funding it is because they're scared
                    of the punditry saying "they abandoned the troops in the
                    field."  This is of course bullshit, and they'll need to
                    find their voices and spines and change that meme.  But IMO
                    they are obliged now to cut off the funding.  There is no
                    other way for them to end it.  And until they get up the
                    courage to do so, more soldiers and civilians continue to
                    die.
                    \_ Whereas when the troops leave Iraq, it will instantly
                       become peaceful?  Pass me some of what you're smoking!
                       \_ what is your proposal, then?  we have 70-100 Iraqi
                             \_ some sort of "final solution?"
                          civilians dies every day, ~4 million (out of total
                          of 20+ million) displaced internally and externally.
                          So, obviously we are not making this peaceful right
                          now.  My ears are all yours.
                          \_ Stop cut n pasting.  Say something new or don't
                             bother posting.
                       \_ Oh, no, Iraqis will continue to see violence, and
                          that's on our heads.  But our troops leaving now
                          or 10 years from now won't change that.  I'm speaking
                          specifically of the US's cost in blood and treasure.
                          We need to attack the issue with other approaches.
                          It will be a long road as Bush has ignored all other
                          approaches, failing to lay any groundwork
                          diplomatcally/politically, but them's the breaks.
                          \_ There is no need if we TRY to spread diseases
                             like Cholera. The military should consider that
                             as a cheap and effective option.
                             \_ Or we could send in the CIA to spread crack.
                          \_ I love how casually you predict the next 10 years.
                             Here's another possibility.  In 10 years, Al
                             Qaeda has taken over Iraq, used the oil revenue to
                             get biological and nuclear weapons, and erased a
                             US city.  See, we can all play that game.
                             \_ That may be true but in 30 years they'll
                                be commercialized and embrace everything
                                Western just like Vietnam it is now.
                                \_ And at the cost of only one major US port
                                   city!  A good deal at twice the price!
                                   Maybe it'll be a smaller port city like
                                   San Francisco or Oakland....
                                   \_ I can live with that.
                                      \_ Lemme guess, you don't live anywhere
                                         near SF?
                             \_ Since Al Qaeda is very unpopular amongst the
                                Iraqi people, it is hard to imagine how they
                                could possibly "take over" Iraq. Try to
                                imagine something with a greater chance of
                                likelyhood, like Iran taking over Iraq.
                                \_ That is already happening.
                                \_ How popular was Saddam with the Iraqi
                                   people?
                                   \_ Are you saying that we are funding AQ?
                                   \_ SH was extremely popular with one tribe,
                                      one that represented about 20% of the
                                      Iraqi people. AQ has no such inherent
                                      power base. The Shi'ites hate them
                                      and the Sunni in Iraq have turned
                                      against them.
                                      \_ The Sunni aren't a tribe.  They're
                                         a religious branch of Islam.  Saddam's
                                         tribe was in Tikrit and the areas
                                         immediately around Tikrit.  I agree
                                         with the rest of what you said.