8/30    so what the heck is a good marriage?  obviously i have failed
        completely.
        \_ most people aren't capable of it and since it requires two of
           these rare people to find and marry each other at similar stages
           in life, good marriages are extremely rare.
           \_ You have made me sad.
              \_ sorry, but see the 'bullshit' person below for an example
                 of someone who should not marry someone.  he'd just make
                 both of them miserable.  a good marriage requires maturity,
                 self sacrifice, trust, and a few other things that are very
                 hard to find today because so many are all about 'me, me, me'.
        \_ It only exists for people with a high tolerance of bullshit.
                 \_ Not arguing with your criteria for a good marriage (I
                    agree, eleven years and rocking), but I don't share your
                    cynicism. These things can be learned if people are willing
                    to do it.
                    \_ They can be learned, true, but most people aren't
                       willing to do.  My wife's friend actually sneered at
                       me when I told her (a few weeks before she was getting
                       married) that marriage required giving up     willing to\
do.  My wife's friend actually sneered at
                       me when I told her (a few weeks before she was getting
                       willing to do.  My wife's friend actually sneered at me
                       when I told her (a few weeks before she was getting
                       married) that marriage required giving up some of that
                       'me, me, me' to make room for 'us, us, us'.  She's
                       still married 3 years later but they're both miserable.
                       \_ Wow, your wife's friend sounds like a gem. Sorry to
                          hear it. Hm, can we lay the blame at Dr. Phil's feet?
                          \_ In this case, no, just pure selfishness learned
                             long before Dr. Phil came on the air.
                 \_ Self sacrifice = tolerance for bullshit
                    \_ Sigh....  Please don't take a second wife, you'll just
                       be ruining her for someone else who might have been
                       happy.  Unless she's as selfish as you in which case
                       you deserve each other.
                       \_ You must have a different definition of
                          self-sacrifice. Mine involves doing things you
                          don't want to do for the sake of the marriage.
                          That always makes people happy! I think most
                          people on the MOTD are idealists who never
                          encountered real marital problems but, more
                          likely, just delude themselves into thinking
                          those problems don't exist.
                          \_ Self-sacrifice != surrendering your entire self.
                             In a marriage, it means working out what's truly
                             important and what's merely petty-ante power
                             politics and eschewing the latter.
                          \_ Not for the sake of the marriage, per se.  And
                             not thing you don't want to do.  But you do things
                             because it makes your wife happy and she does the
                             same for you.  A trivial example: my wife does
                             99% of the house work.  Sometimes she's tired or
                             just doesn't feel like it so I offer to do it.
                             I don't *like* doing housework but it isn't that
                             big a deal and it makes her happy that I'd do it
                             sometimes without being asked (much less nagged).
                             Was that a sacrifice on my part?  Sure, sort of,
                             but not really in the long run.  What sort of
                             sacrifices did you have in mind?  (And please note
                             that I did say this was a trivial example).
                             \_ You wife does 99% of the housework? Does she
                                have a job, too?
                                \_ She does not have a job outside the house
                                   recently.  When she did we had a maid
                                   service and split the rest of what the maids
                                   didn't do.  I hauled trash, we split the
                                   dishes, she did most of the laundry, etc.
                                   \_ I was wondering where you found someone
                                      who thought doing 99% of the housework
                                      was equitable. Now I understand. My wife
                                      works, but we share housework.
        \_ It only exists for people with a high tolerance for bullshit.
        \_ It only exists for people with a high tolerance of bullshit.