Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 47529
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2024/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   

2007/8/4-22 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:47529 Activity:low
8/4     http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece
        "Walking to shops damages planet more than going by car".  You called
        me a troll when I brought up some of the things this article says.
        Have a nice day and next time drive, don't walk, if you want to go
        green.  ;-)
        \_ Why do you waste our time with this crap?  Some examples: (huh?)
           - Someone who installs a "green" lightbulb undoes a year's worth
             of energy-saving by buying two bags of imported veg,
             as so much carbon is wasted flying the food to Britain

             of energy-saving by buying two bags of imported veg, as so much
             carbon is wasted flying the food to Britain
             \_ ok fine.  what do the concepts in the above 3 lines have
                anything to do with each other?  can't you find a better
                piece than this, this article is making me dumber by existing.
           - Trees, regarded as shields against global warming because they
             absorb carbon, were found by German scientists to be
             major producers of methane, a much more harmful greenhouse gas
             absorb carbon, were found by German scientists to be major
             producers of methane, a much more harmful greenhouse gas
             \_ The German study may be incorrect as a Dutch study has
                failed to confirm the same:
                http://www.physorg.com/news96890121.html
           Who are you?  Please kill yourself.
           \_ If you have a counter then please post it.  If all you have to
              say is childish nonsense and more personal attack, then you
              can stop anytime.  I was waiting for someone intelligent to
              reply, not a knee jerker.  Have a nice day, friend.
              \_ He's suggesting that you produce a lot of carbon dioxide and
                 that he'd like you to offset his own carbon production by
                 ceasing your output. Sounds like a winnning solution. -!pp
                 \_ Childish smearing:  A good way to avoid any intelligent
                    debate.  As expected.
        \_ Who gets 100% of their calories from beef? What a silly "study."
           The obvious answer, which is later in the article, is to eat less
           meat and imported veggies. Also, live less then 3 miles from the
           store. Who lives that far from the store? Suburbanites?
           \_ Up until this July there wasn't a grocery store in downtown LA.
        \_ "180 calories to walk to the store.
           150 calories to remain alive while sitting on the couch for the
           same time period.
           maybe we should all just die instead.
           tc, bogota, colombia"
           This comment on the "study" says it all.
           \_ Except it isn't 150 calories to sit on the couch or we'd all
              be starving.  Here's some basic math on that number.  Let's
              assume the poster meant 150 calories per hour to sit on the
              couch.  150 calories/hour X 24 hours = 3600 calories/day.
              Depending on how active you are 1800-2400 calories will maintain
              body weight.  By this person's "says it all" comment, we'd all
              quickly starve to death on a normal diet just sitting on the
              couch.
              \_ Is someone talking? Can't you read? That comment said it all.
                 \_ I read.  Try some math.  The comment was stupid.  Try
                    again.
              \_ If you sit on the couch 24hrs a day and not letting yourself
                 fall asleep, yeah you'll quickly die.  Anyway, a body awake
                 burns more calories than a body asleep.
                 \_ Trolling or just pedantic?
                    \_ A sleeping body generates less heat.  That's why you
                       use a blanket when you sleep in order to not feel
                       chilly and wake up.
                       \_ Ok, and this changes the numbers how?  At zero
                          calories for 8 hours of sleep you're still burning
                          2400 calories/day if you burn 150/hour slacking on
                          the couch the other 16.  You'd still starve, just
                          more slowly.  And that's zero calories for sleeping
                          which we know is too low but I'm taking the extreme
                          case against my point for demonstration purposes.
        \_ What percentage of people who get all their calories from beef
           actually walk anywhere?
2024/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   

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www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece
Sitemap From The Times August 4, 2007 Walking to the shops damages planet more than going by car' Dominic Kennedy Walking does more than driving to cause global warming, a leading environmentalist has calculated. Food production is now so energy-intensive that more carbon is emitted providing a person with enough calories to walk to the shops than a car would emit over the same distance. The climate could benefit if people avoided exercise, ate less and became couch potatoes. Provided, of course, they remembered to switch off the TV rather than leaving it on standby. The sums were done by Chris Goodall, campaigning author of How to Live a Low-Carbon Life, based on the greenhouse gases created by intensive beef production. of CO2 to the atmosphere," he said, a calculation based on the Government's official fuel emission figures. "If you walked instead, it would use about 180 calories. You'd need about 100g of beef to replace those calories, resulting in 36kg of emissions, or four times as much as driving. "The troubling fact is that taking a lot of exercise and then eating a bit more food is not good for the global atmosphere. Eating less and driving to save energy would be better." Mr Goodall, Green Party parliamentary candidate for Oxford West & Abingdon, is the latest serious thinker to turn popular myths about the environment on their head. Catching a diesel train is now twice as polluting as travelling by car for an average family, the Rail Safety and Standards Board admitted recently. Paper bags are worse for the environment than plastic because of the extra energy needed to manufacture and transport them, the Government says. Fresh research published in New Scientistlast month suggested that 1kg of meat cost the Earth 36kg in global warming gases. The figure was based on Japanese methods of industrial beef production but Mr Goodall says that farming techniques are similar throughout the West. What if, instead of beef, the walker drank a glass of milk? The average person would need to drink 420ml - three quarters of a pint - to recover the calories used in the walk. Modern dairy farming emits the equivalent of 12kg of CO2 to produce the milk, still more pollution than the car journey. Cattle farming is notorious for its perceived damage to the environment, based on what scientists politely call "methane production" from cows. The gas, released during the digestive process, is 21 times more harmful than CO2 . Organic beef is the most damaging because organic cattle emit more methane. Michael O'Leary, boss of the budget airline Ryanair, has been widely derided after he was reported to have said that global warming could be solved by massacring the world's cattle. "The way he is running around telling people they should shoot cows," Lawrence Hunt, head of Silverjet, another budget airline, told the Commons Environmental Audit Committee. "I do not think you can really have debates with somebody with that mentality." But according to Mr Goodall, Mr O'Leary may have a point. "Associated British Foods isn't being questioned by MPs about energy. "We need to become accustomed to the idea that our food production systems are equally damaging. As the man from Ryanair says, cows generate more emissions than aircraft. Of course, this doesn't mean we should always choose to use air or car travel instead of walking. It means we need urgently to work out how to reduce the greenhouse gas intensity of our foodstuffs." Simply cutting out beef, or even meat, however, would be too modest a change. The food industry is estimated to be responsible for a sixth of an individual's carbon emissions, and Britain may be the worst culprit. "This is not just about flying your beans from Kenya in the winter," Mr Goodall said. "The whole system is stuffed with energy and nitrous oxide emissions. The UK is probably the worst country in the world for this. We use an enormous amount of processed food, like ready meals, compared to most countries. Three quarters of supermarkets' energy is to refrigerate and freeze food prepared elsewhere. A chilled ready meal is a perfect example of where the energy is wasted. You make the meal, then use an enormous amount of energy to chill it and keep it chilled through warehousing and storage." "This is a route which virtually nobody, apart from a vegan, is going to follow," Mr Goodall said. But there are other ways to reduce the carbon footprint. "Don't buy anything from the supermarket," Mr Goodall said, "or anything that's travelled too far." Shattering the great green myths -- Traditional nappies are as bad as disposables, a study by the Environment Agency found. While throwaway nappies make up 01 per cent of landfill waste, the cloth variety are a waste of energy, clean water and detergent -- Paper bags cause more global warming than plastic. They need much more space to store so require extra energy to transport them from manufacturers to shops -- Diesel trains in rural Britain are more polluting than 4x4 vehicles. They produce less milk so their methane emissions per litre are higher -- Someone who installs a "green" lightbulb undoes a year's worth of energy-saving by buying two bags of imported veg, as so much carbon is wasted flying the food to Britain -- Trees, regarded as shields against global warming because they absorb carbon, were found by German scientists to be major producers of methane, a much more harmful greenhouse gas Sources: Defra; Have your say Have they taken into account the carbon cost of a tripple heart bypass for all the people who take no excersise? The point is that thing which are expensive generally cost a lot in energy, and energy usually means CO2 emissions. Organic is worse than ordinary food, out of season tomatoes are worse than in season, trains are worse than cars, paper bags worse than plastic, food (energy) is worse than petrol (energy) etc. Generally speaking buying the cheapest option probably uses the least human effort and human effort correlates pretty well with energy consumption. Isn't it amazing that I don't need any beef whatsoever to walk to the store! The whole thing is that just eating beef causes millions of tonnes of greenhouse gasses that aren't necessary and keeps millions of tons of grain from the mouths of hungry people who don't even have stores to walk to. Bonnie Parker, Magnolia, Arkansas Now the greenies want us to stop eating to save the planet! The points made by Chris Goodall should be a wake up call to everyone. The latest environmentalist vogues are full of hypocracies. I am fed up with constantly being told that I am guilty of several cataclysmic crimes by the time I have had a warm shower and a cup of tea in the morning. Now you are telling me I should repent for the bacon sandwich I've just had. Demanding that every person on the planet fundamentally change their lives comes with an equally tremendous responsibility to demonstrate both why and how. Too much of the so-called science purporting to 'prove' man's negative influence on the environment is questionable; furthermore, as your article suggests too many of the proposed remedies are hastily concocted, ineffective, counter-productive or ultimately facile. Properly prove your case and develop clear-thinking remedies that have longevity and substance before telling everyone what we should do. Nick, London, We're coming inexorably to the elephant in the room. Global warming - if it exists outside the imagination of its proponents - ultimately owes its very existence to overpopulation. Twiddling with hair-brained schemes which change from day to day will do nothing to change that basic fact. Terry Dell, Weybridge, UK Surely having Children is the cause of Global warming and therefore either not having Children, or all the very most, only having one is the global solution? Adrian Guy, Devon, England Of course it's possible to reduce any argument to absurdity if you try hard enough. Supposing we all gave up walking - what about the effect on our health and the cost to the NHS of treating the extra obesity and heart disease? Likewise the extra traffic congestion and fumes from the extra car trips. Mostly they ...
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www.physorg.com/news96890121.html
This controversial finding and the resulting commotion triggered a consortium of Dutch scientists to re-examine this in an independent study. Reporting in New Phytologist, Tom Dueck and colleagues present their results and conclude that methane emissions from plants are negligible and do not contribute to global climate change. The consortium brings together a unique combination of expertise and facilities enabling the design and execution of a novel experiment. Plants were grown in a facility containing atmospheric carbon dioxide almost exclusively with a heavy form of carbon (^13C). This makes the carbon released from the plants relatively easy to detect. Thus, if plants are able to emit methane, it will contain the heavy carbon isotope and can be detected against the background of lighter carbon molecules in the air. Six plant species were grown in a 13C-carbon dioxide atmosphere, saturating the plants with heavy carbon. This technique is so sensitive that the scientists are able to measure the carbon dioxide in the breath of small insects like ants. Even with this state-of-the-art technique, the measured emission rates were so close to the detection limit that they did not statistically differ from zero. To our knowledge this is the first independent test which has been published since the controversy last year. Conscious of the fact that a small amount of plant material might only result in small amounts of methane, the researchers sampled the heavy' methane in the air in which a large amount of plants were growing. Thus these plant specialists conclude that there is no reason to reassess the mitigation potential of plants. The researchers stress that questions still remain and that the gap in the global methane budget needs to be properly addressed. Citation: 'Methane emissons from terrestrial plants under aerobic conditions' by Keppler F, Hamilton JTG, Bra M, Rockmann T Nature 439: 187-191 Source: Blackwell Publishing Ltd.