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| 11/23 |
| 2007/7/7-10 [Recreation/Pets] UID:47210 Activity:high |
7/7 Dear cat owners: What is it about cats you like? -dog guy
\_ dog: Everyone's equal except the master. Communism rules!
cat: Fuck you and fuck everyone else. Libertarianism rules!
\_ The cat kingdom doesn't have a complex social hierarchy.
Likewise cat owners tend to hate hierarchy. They do what
they damn please. The two have a lot in common.
\_ Great apes and wolves have a similar social structure. Most
dogs view the human as the alpha. Dog owners get a pet to fulfill
the need to be an alpha in a social hierarchy.
\_ Funny. Dog expert Cesar Milan says *most* owners are not
being calm & assertive owners, and are treated by their
dogs as equals or even inferior member of the pack. You
can easily confirm this fact by the number of dogs that
walk their owners (when the dogs lead the leash) instead
of the other way around, and how unobedient many dogs are
with constant barking and uncontrollable behaviors because
their owners are not being calm and assertive leaders.
In reality, most owners are *not* perceived by their dogs
as the alpha. Sad.
\_ I understand that. I like dogs. I like having a companion
with whom I can share my social structures with. I'm
baffled as to why people love cats. I don't understand cats.
They give me no respect, and don't recognize any of their
owners. They sleep 2/3 of the time. They're lazy, unmotivated,
and they're slightly smarter than furnitures. In fact, they
are moving furnitures.
If my dog is 200 pounds, it is still my best friend. If
a cat is 200 pounds, I become its meal. Other than the fact
that they're clean and low maintenance and provide a little
bit of entertainment (they're obsessed about yarns and
strings and curtains), I really don't understand why
people love cats but I'm curious and I want to know why.
Thank you for your useless response. -dog guy
\_ You like having a slave or a wingman. Dog owners measure
dog intelligence by how much of a beta the dog is. (Back in
the old days folks in the South used to measure the
intelligence of black slaves in the same way -- by how well
\_ Well I have to say that the southerners did a pretty
bad job because many many African Americans
are anything but submissive. -robbed at gunpoint
they followed instructions.) You don't
understand cat owners because you have a lot of social
insecurity, so much so that you crave 'respect' from an animal.
\_ The ability to communicate is one trait that separates
smart animals from others. Smart cats can understand up
to 50 different human words. Average dogs understand
250 different human words. Smart cats are often said to
communicate with the human equivalence of 18 months
old baby. Average dogs communicate with the human
equivalence of 2 year old kids.
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Features/Columns/?article=catsanddogsdogthink
\_ Cat communication is more subtle and involving of body
language and expressions with eyes/ears/tail. I agree
that dogs are more attuned to individual human words.
But they aren't attuned to cat communication. If you
pay enough attention to cats you can communicate
enough. They will be more likely to respect you if you
are able to do this.
\_ Why would you expect dogs to be attuned to cat
communication? Say what? Dogs are very responsive
to human non-verbal cues and express plenty of their
own through non-vocal means. What are you trying to
say here?
\_ I'm just saying that communication ability isn't
defined by understanding human words.
\_ Of course not but cross species communication
is a good indicator.
\_ Actually Mr. Freud, it's a lot simpler than that.
Obedient slave will do tasks that alpha slaves will
not. Economically speaking, beta slaves yield high
ROI (return on investment) whereas alpha slaves are
liabilities. Likewise, dog owners need to have beta
dogs to yield a higher ROI where their definition
of investment is time/training/vets vs. how much
fun it is to be with their dogs. From what you're
saying the only ROI dog owners want is a psychological
need to feel superior, which may be true for some
dog owners but is certainly not a universal need for
all dog owners. Many dog owners are just as
content having cats around for companionship.
\_ Your comments were insightful and I thought it was
going to lead to a logical conclusion, but alas, it's
just the usual motd ad-hominem
\_ Sometimes an insult is the logical conclusion. The
OP started the thread to try to troll cat owners --
he got exactly what he deserved.
he got exactly what he deserved. What's funny is
a typical cat owner would find the original comment
of 'wanting to be an alpha' insulting, but I think
it's too subtle a jab to be caught by a dog owner.
\_ in general a generalization like yours makes
you appear to be a person who likes to generalize.
\_ What's up with the giant trollish net you're
tossing over all dog owners? It's kind of hard to
respond to someone in a serious way who makes such
grandly sweeping trollish statements.
\_ I don't know about you, but I stopped taking this
thread seriously after OP's first response.
\_ It's the motd, none of it is serious. With
that in mind, I just wanted to point out the
giant hand waving trolling sweeping over-
generalisation since it went beyond motd norms.
\_ I don't think the motd can survive without
your observational skills. Thanks!
\_ No problem, I'm here for you, Brother!
\_ Cats are beautiful creatures that still have a lot of the
\_ beautiful as in "wow I love the color and the fur, let
me put on Gucci decorations and make it cuter!" or
beautiful as in "it moves with god given grace" ?
\_ Graceful, agile, and overall attractive. They seem
to be very proud animals.
wild in them. They *do* recognize their owners and they can
be very loving. They are small and clean and don't smell
bad, like dogs do. I've had both as pets and while I grant
that it's better to have a dog sometimes (e.g. for
security) as pets I far prefer cats. I think cats are
smarter than dogs are, btw.
\_ I'm still not hearing a single specific about any case
where cats are smarter than dogs in any way.
\_ Let me guess, you're a dog owner? -pp
\_ I've had both. Going to answer the question or keep
attacking at a personal level? What is 'smarter'
about cats?
\_ In a 1:1 match the cat wins hands down. Cats have better
agility and faster reaction time. They're born with
better survival instincts and individual hunting instincts.
They track targets well, hide better, and attack only
when they're in an advantageous position. In an even
n:n match where n is greater than say, 5, a pack of dogs
wins hands down. This is mainly because dogs learn and
adapt as hunters and are able to co-operate with
others. God built cats with faster CPU and bigger ROM,
but gave dogs much more RAM.
\_ Where do lions fit in?
\_ Once again lions have superior hardware but
wolves have slightly better written software.
One on one, lions win hands down, but the slightly
better designed software will allow a pack of
wolves (5-25) to wear down loner lions.
\_ What makes it better? Packs of lions work
together better than wolves do. Go watch some nature
videos.
videos. -troll#319
\_ I've seen plenty of videos of both. Both pack
hunt in pretty much the same way in everything
I've seen. What have you seen different?
\_ I've seen them cooperating to get prey in
ways wolves don't do. But whatever: if you
say they're pretty much the same way, then
why do you think wolves have better software?
-troll#319
\_ I'm not the software analog guy. I think
it comes down to pack vs. non-pack. Lions
will do things like encircle prey, have a
chaser lion spook the target into other
waiting lions, etc. So do wolves. I dunno
exactly what ways you're talking about.
\_ Why are you replying then? I was
responding to the claim that wolves
are smarter than lions.
are smarter than lions. -troll#319
\_ You've been chatting with me since
lions were brought into this. I'm
still not mammals=computers guy.
\_ uh? he was the one who claimed
wolves have "better designed
software" and my reply was to
him. -troll#319
\_ Okey dokey. He hasn't been
here for a while though. Maybe
you're on the wrong thread?
Try Google's New MOTD Maps!
\_ Mostly lazing around while the few females hunt once
a week or so on the pride's behalf.
\_ Sounds pretty smart.
\_ You mean "Sounds pretty lucky." They didn't
"think & act" to reach their status.
\_ You base this opinion on what?
\_ So if I repeatedly put a dog & a cat in an identical maze
(at separate times of course), a cat will learn to
traverse the maze faster than a dog?
\_ Not really what I meant, but I've read that cats are
capable of learning tasks that dogs cannot.
\_ Yes like learning to climb a tree. SMART!
\_ Such as? With patience you can train a dog to do
almost anything. It probably won't understand why
you've taught it to use the vaccuum cleaner but it
can be taught to do so.
\_ http://www.jeffrydwight.net/writing/catsarestupid.asp
\- can you elaborate on your definition of smart?
\_ Capable of more advanced thought processes.
\_ You mean they're too smart to obey commands
because they know they'll get food anyways?
\_ Intelligence is domain specific. The cold virus
is more intelligent in its own domain than the
entire human race. If you define intelligence
as the capacity to obey commands then computers
are smarter than people. -- ilyas
\- Most scientists today will agree that
intelligence is defined as capacities to
reason, plan, solve problems, think
abstractly, comprehend ideas and language,
and learn. There is no doubt that the cold
virus is WELL SUITED for its domain (host)
and the cat is WELL SUITED for its domain
(jungle). I.E. the germ is WELL SUITED but by
no means INTELLIGENT for its domain. It
doesn't reason, plan, and comprehend ideas
but certainly its offspring variants LEARN
to defeat anti-biotics.
\_ Do you believe an observational test is
sufficient to determine intelligence?
(The Turing Test is observational). It
sounds like you don't, because you are
appealing to the 'causal structure' of the
mind as found in human beings
(e.g., implementation: planning,
etc.) Blockhead doesn't plan, but some
people would consider it intelligent.
I don't consider any collection of cold
viruses to possess 'general intelligence,' but
I am not sure that concept is well defined
anymore. -- ilyas
anymore. The architecture of the human mind
The architecture of the human mind
has more in common with that of a cold virus
strain than of Blockhead. -- ilyas
strain than of Blockhead. I don't consider
any collection of cold viruses to possess
'general intelligence,' but I am not sure that
concept is well defined anymore. -- ilyas
\_ Exactly what are these more advanced thought processes
that the cat has? I've had both cats and dogs, often
at the same time, and didn't ever once see or hear of
my or any other cat doing anything smarter than leaving
dead things in the house as a gift.
\_ HOW DARE YOU question cats' intelligence! They
climb trees, kill pests, clean themselves, and
are self sufficient. Dumb dogs cannot do any of
the above. -dog guy pretenting to be a cat guy
\_ I didn't expect to get a real reply from a cat
person, so thanks for filling in. :-) |
| 11/23 |
|
| encarta.msn.com/encnet/Features/Columns/?article=catsanddogsdogthink Part IV: How dogs think Probably the best-known expert on the intelligence of dogs is Stanley Coren, a psychology professor at the University of British Columbia and the author of several books about dogs. In The Intelligence of Dogs, Coren outlines three types of smarts that can be measured: instinctive, adaptive, and working. Instinctive intelligence describes what dogs are genetically designed to do. This is why some can herd sheep and others are good at retrieving tennis balls. Adaptive intelligence describes how well dogs can figure out what's going on around them--for example, how quickly they can find a hidden treat. Working intelligence describes how quickly they learn commands. The book even contains instructions for measuring your dog's smarts. Even so, says Coren, the tests are biased against the dogs--they're only testing how well dogs understand us, not how well they understand each other. Domestic cats are not pack animals, which is why people laugh when someone trots out the old expression, "It was like herding cats!" This is also why many people, Coren included, make a strong case for dogs being smarter, paws down. Pack animals have to read signals and anticipate the effect of their actions. If you look at it in human developmental terms, a dog is about equivalent to a human two-year-old, which means it knows about 260 words or signals. The average cat, meanwhile, is more like an 18-month-old, which means it knows about 50 words. The more words a creature knows and the better it's able to communicate, the more it is apt to succeed in a social environment. It's not that cats are too regal to perform tricks or obey commands, Coren says. They just aren't able to learn language and read social cues as well as dogs. Maybe this is why dogs joined human families about 14,000 years ago, while cats were first domesticated 4,500 years ago. Dogs were quicker to figure out how to hop on board the human gravy train. In any case, this is why my dog always knows when she's going for a walk, even without my using the word--there's some signal I'm giving off without even knowing it. This isn't to say that dogs are perfect at reading the body language of all species. In fact, in How to Speak Dog, Coren explains that this is one reason why cats and dogs often don't get along. A frightened or submissive dog will roll over, exposing its stomach. A cat, on the other hand, will roll on to its back when killing prey, or defending itself with its powerful hind legs. So, a dog might look at a cat on its back and think, "Hey. The cat, meanwhile, is thinking, "I'll disembowel Fifi if it's the last thing I do." Despite this, dogs' skill at language and communication with humans has enabled them to not only be companions, but also to perform crucial jobs. Despite the pleasure they provide as pets and the rodents they dispatch for us, there's no evidence that cats can do anything like this. So, if intelligence is a measure of the complexity of a task an animal can perform, then dogs really do take first prize. Someday, when we understand more of the things we can't measure, the answer to the Who's smarter? Or maybe we'll just stop asking the question, because the important thing already is clear: Cats and dogs both think. And until we're able to catch tennis balls in our mouths and kill mice with our bare hands, we should be impressed with them both. |
| www.jeffrydwight.net/writing/catsarestupid.asp Not your run-of-the-mill dumb, not dim, not thick, but stupid. Eggplants and doorknobs beat them all hollow for intelligence. I have a toothpick with more cranial capacity than the average cat. Dumber than youd be if you stuck your tongue on top of a Tesla coil to see if it was charged. Look, in case theres any ambiguity left, let me be explicit: If an IQ could get as low as zero, cats would rate negative. Every night when I come home from work, Kiy runs up to my car to greet me. She mewls a greeting and tries to jump into my lap as Im getting out of the car. By the time she makes her jump, Im already standing up and shutting the car door. So she rubs against me to express affection or hunger (same trope). Her bowl is always full (Im very good about that), and its always full of exactly the same thing. Last Christmas I bought a 20-lb bag of generic cat food. Ive discussed it with her, at great length, every night. She ignores me and begins complaining that I am starving her to death. I tell her to eat the damned food or get a one-way ticket to the pound. She ignores the warning tone of my voice and begins to complain in earnest. Every night, I threaten to have her euthanized, or to make guitar strings out of her. And every night, she refuses to eat it, and tells me at the top of her lungs that I am personally responsible for all the ills of the world in general, and for her lack of suitable food in particular. Then I fill her dish with the food I just dumped into the bag and give it back to her. Story Notes I've had several cats at one time or another. All are dead now, and most have been named Ki'y (short for kitty and pronounced like "key"). I once had a pair of identical kittens named This One and That One, which made identification easy. "This One," I'd say, careful to pronounce the capital letters. Both of them were surnamed Either One and nicknamed The Other One. So, no matter which cat I referred to, it was always correctly named. The Ki'y in this story was House Ki'y, a tattered old tom that belonged to everyone and no one. My brother's family made the mistake of feeding it, and it therefore adopted them. When they went on a two-week holiday one year, I took it to my house and taught it to live indoors (hence House Ki'y), and it liked the arrangement so much that it adopted me. |