5/23    Since the surge, is there anyway we can find oout rather sectarian
        killings in Bagdad has decreased or not?  IMHO, it is the decrease
        of sectarian killings among Iraqis, not decrease in US troop casualties
        that indicates the success of operation.
        \_ The surge is still happening.
           \_ Is there a scheduled end date for the surge, or does even
              asking that question give aid and comfort to the enemy?
              \_ Why do you hate... oh fuck it...
                 \_ I'm not sure what the point is to answering questions from
                    ignorant people who have already made up their minds but
                    whatever.  It isn't an act of treason or America-hating but
                    simple stupidity.
                    \_ Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant? Interesting
                       worldview.
                       \_ No.  But anyone like the op who clearly knows
                          nothing about the details of an event but has already
                          formed an opinion is ignorant as well as not very
                          bright.
              \_ It's supposed to be complete this summer, with the generals
                 evaluating its success or failure in September.
        \_ The whole 'surge' thing is silly.  The evil fucks bombing
           the shit out of each other can just hold back for a bit
           while this 'surge' thing is happening and everyone will
           be happy.  We should either pull out now or commit
           massive resources to Iraq, 20k more troops is not going to
           accomplish anything.
           \_ The point is to clear them out of the city, establish real
              security, and earn the trust of the people.  That way it is
              much harder for them to return.  Given a choice of daily bombings
              vs. going safely about their lives most people will choose a
              normal life and turn in the thugs.  What did you think the point
              was?
              \_ It's a great idea, but the execution misses the point: we
                 needed more troops at the beginning and a better strategy than
                 just more bodies now.
                 \_ I agree that they screwed the pooch on day 1 but we're now
                    where we are.  Instead of General Petrous(sp?) surge plan
                    what would you suggest that would improve safety, suppress
                    or eliminate thugs and eventually allow us to leave
                    without leaving the country in a real civil war?  If we
                    walk away now the current level of violence will look like
                    a game of candyland.  Complete elimination of all violence
                    won't happen.  The most pacifistic EU countries still have
                    violent crime, but it can be reduced to more civilized
                    levels.
                    \_ I think the whole entrenched thug thing is a thousand
                       years of the 70 percent Shiite/20 percent Sunni/10
                       percent Kurd hatred mix.  They all hate each other.  The
                       US presence there doesn't make them hate each other any
                       less, or more.  We just can't win this huge entrenched
                       guerilla war.  We don't have a magic time machine.  We
                       also have no way of deciding when we have 'won'.  So
                       either we should pull out NOW, or flood the fucking
                       country with armed force, aid, and us state dept
                       personnel for the next 20 years.  we've really fucked
                       up.
                       \_ Despite what the media tells you most guerilla wars
                          are won by the government side, historically.  What
                          we lack isn't men or aid or state department
                          flunkies.  It is the will to win.  Our politicians
                          are no longer leaders, they are more concerned with
                          the next election cycle and the polls than doing
                          what needs to be done.  And I mean our entire
                          government, not anyone from either of the silly
                          parties.
                        \_ What is this 'Will to win'?  Do you mean 'kill
                           huge swaths of the population, civilian and guerilla,
                           and by default killing all the insurgents'?  That's the only way
                           I can think of historically of the gov winning
                           a guerilla war.  I agree with you then, we do
                           not have 'the will to win'.   I mean really, this is
                           pissing me off.  What is 'the will to win'?
                    \_ It is not at all clear that the U.S. presence in Iraq
                       is reducing the violence there.  The reason we're not
                       leaving is that we're afraid that our sham government
                       will be overthrown and replaced with something
                       opposed to the U.S.  -tom
                       \_ Why do you think it's a sham government?
                          \_ Which part of Iraq outside of the Green Zone cares
                             about that the government has to say?
                             \_ All of it.  Which part doesn't?
                                \_ I don't agree.  I think the areas of the country
                                   where all of the car bombings go off feel
                                   the Iraqi gov is not protecting them.
                    \_ The guys who are saying this are the same ones who
                       told us that Iraq would be a "cakewalk" and that
                       Saddam Hussein had WMD. I am not sure why you are
                       still listening to them, given their track record
                       so far on Iraq.
                       \_ It was a cake walk.  He probably did or at least had
                          the capacity to have them again in a few months of
                          free trade.  Because General P. wrote the book on
                          modern guerilla warfare based on real world
                          experience and doesn't have a track record so far on
                          Iraq.  What are you talking about?  Do you even know?