4/16    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818224/posts
        freepers unhappy GOP-backed bill defeated - would have allowed those
        already with a concealed carry permit to bring a firearm to Virginia
        public universities
        \_ Which of course might have allowed law-abiding students to kill the
           shooter before he did so much damage. -emarkp
           \_ Or shoot someone else trying to shoot the shooter.  Or shoot
              some random person by accident.  Or shoot someone 2 weeks from
              now cause they thought he might be about to shoot someone.
              Hypotheticals are never as clear cut as you want them to be.
              \_ That last one is just stupid.
           \_ I guess.  Maybe if law abiding citizens had watched more
              Steven Siegal movies.
              \_ What do you mean? Someone who owns a gun and knows how to use
                 it doesn't have to have an action movie choreographer in order
                 to threaten or use force. -emarkp
                 \_ I think he's saying that if they had watched Steven Segal
                    they wouldn't need a gun.
                    \_ I doubt watching SS movies turns people into action
                       heros.
                 \_ Yes, if only everyone on campus were packing, nothing bad
                    would have happened!  Because, of course, everyone is
                    well-trained in how to handle firearms, especially
                    when their classroom is unexpectedly turned into a shooting
                    gallery.  The idea of concealed-carry permits preventing
                    incidents like this is complete fantasy.  -tom
                    \_ So you're a prophet and I'm simply wrong?  The shooter
                       was wildly outnumbered by non-shooters, yet there was
                       nothing they could do because no one had a gun to level
                       the playing field. -emarkp
                       \_ I used to hang out with some guys were total
                          gun afficanados.  At first it seemed kinda harmless
                          but then I began to realize that most of them
                          dreamed of being in a situation (guy breaking into
                          their home, stopping a rape, whatever) where they
                          could legally blow someone away.  Not "I have this
                          for protection" but "I have this cause it would be
                          so cool if I actually got to use it on someone."
                          You know who is the last person I want "defending"
                          me?  Some psychopath who just wants to kill someone
                          but has enough sense to wait till it is legal.
                          \_ I bet they didn't say that and you're projecting
                             your own psychoses onto them.
                             \_ No, really there was a significant number of
                                that kept bringing up how they would use
                                x gun in y situation to stop z crime.  After
                                hearing that a few times it became really
                                obvious that they had spent way too much time
                                dreaming of exactly when they would get to
                                kill someone in the name of justice.
                                \_ Well, what's wrong with wanting to stop
                                   crimes? Were they talking about shooting
                                   people who break traffic laws? I bet cops
                                   think about these things. Are cops psychos
                                   who became cops so they could kill people?
                                   \_ The (to be fair few) cops I've known
                                      didn't spend hours at a time talking
                                      about just how they would go about
                                      gunning down someone if x happened.
                                      \_ Well the few gun "enthusiasts" or
                                         whatever I've known don't do that
                                         either. This argument has nowhere to
                                         go "I know people who like X and do Y
                                         therefore X is bad."
                          \_ You know, I'll bet the 30+ dead people in Virginia
                             wouldn't have minded having a few of these people
                             around. -emarkp
                             \_ You mean at the time he chained the class room
                                doors closed and lined people up to execute
                                them?  Nope, no sirree!  It would have only
                                added to the chaos and innocent people might
                                have been hurt if they all had guns.
                                \_ As opposed to all of them being shot without
                                   defense?  How can you claim "it would have
                                   only"?  One possible outcome is that the
                                   execution would have been stopped and fewer
                                   people died. -emarkp
                                   \_ Assuming that an armed populace would
                                      have made things better (an assumption
                                      I personally don't believe) do you
                                      really think this once every 10-20
                                      years event would make up for the daily
                                      statistics as every freak out there
                                      goes vigilante?
                                      \_ There are already plenty of people who
                                         have guns.  Why aren't we seeing
                                         "every freak out there going viglante"
                                         now? -emarkp
                                         \_ uh, we are.  Look at U.S. murder
                                            rates.  -tom
                                            \_ How many of those are gang
                                               related? How many murders are
                                               by otherwise law-abiding people
                                               suddenly going vigilante versus
                                               criminals who can get guns
                                               anyway?
                                               \_ How does some number of
                                                  these murders being "gang
                                                  related" ameliorate the
                                                  impact on society?
                                               \_ Well, at least 33.  (For
                                                  comparison, England and
                                                  Wales combined had a total of
                                                  50 gun homicides last year).
                                                    -tom
                                                  \_ Lying with statistics:
                                                     you're leaving out the
                                                     murderous Scots.
                                                     \_ ...who still have half
                                                        of the murder rate
                                                        of the U.S.  -tom
                       \_ How do you know no one had a gun?  -tom
                          \_ Actually, that's a good point.  I don't know that.
                             However, guns are explicitly prohibited on campus.
                             I think assuming that no one had a gun is a
                             reasonable assumption under the circumstances.
                             -emarkp
                             \_ OK, I'll also assume that the shooters didn't
                                have guns, then.  -tom
                                \_ Oh tom, you're so witty! -tom #1 fan
        \_ Some assumptions: 1) if it was legal to carry a concealed weapon
           enough of the students would be carrying at the right place at the
           right time. 2) If people were armed, instead of a 33 person
           massacre there wouldn't be 33 more murders spread out over a few
           years because now everyone is armed when they get angry.
           \_ If it was legal to carry, still not everyone would carry.
              People don't kill others just because they get angry. Using a gun
              on someone is like stabbing them to death with a knife. If you
              carried a knife around would you use it on people who made you
              angry? If you are that type of person you will probably wind up
              dead or in jail regardless of gun laws.
              \_ I'm pretty sure if the guy at VA Tech had a knife instead of
                 a gun, he wouldn't have killed 31 people.  -tom