Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 46186
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2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

2007/4/3-6 [Reference/Military] UID:46186 Activity:moderate
4/3     http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67166
        Security screeners at Denver Int'l miss 90 PERECENT of simulated
        weapons that undercover agents brought into the airport.
        \_ They should just have taser guns next to every seat on the plane.
           The crowd could then overpower any likely number of terrorists.
           A well armed society is a safe society.
           \_ My heart tells me you're sarcastic, or trolling, but sadly
              my head tells me that there are many that really think this
              way.
              \_ Why are you sad about people thinking this way? -emarkp
                 \_ The idea that a "tazer on every seat" would promote the
                    general welfare is a sad one.
                    \_ You're repeating yourself. Why is it a sad idea?
                       -emarkp
                       \_ It makes me sad.  I don't have to explain myself.
                          Do you think it's a GOOD idea?  I wasn't trying
                          to reason about weather arming every passenger
                          to reason about whether arming every passenger
                          on an airplane is a good idea.
                          \_ Of course you don't /have/ to repeat yourself, I
                             was simply asking you to. Just because you feel
                             sad about something doesn't mean the sadness is
                             justified or should have any impact on public
                             discourse. I was just trying to figure out why
                             you're sad. -emarkp
                             \_ That we live in a society where people are
                                sufficiently frightened and alienated from
                                one another that they consider being armed
                                and (likely) a danger to themselves and
                                others a better outcome than the vanishingly
                                small chance that their plane might be
                                highjacked.  You don't have to agree with
                                this, of course.  Mmmkay?
                                \_ Why do you believe that people who are armed
                                   are a danger to themselves and others?
                                   -emarkp
                                   \_ Jesus fucking christ.  Why are either of
                                      you taking this "arguement" seriously?
                                      A taser next to every seat?  Yeah, why
                                      not guns on every lamppost, attached to
                                      a chain to prevent theft while we're at
                                      it?  This isn't a debate about an armed
                                      society, this is a debate about a
                                      cartoon scenario.  Allowing individual
                                      passengers to carry weapons would be
                                      a different thing entireley.
                                      \_ Well, see, the tasers next to every
                                         seat is well targetted towards a
                                         particular situation: overpowering
                                         terrorists or other maniacs on a
                                         plane. Anyone using the tasers without
                                         sufficient reason would be easily
                                         identified and tasered themselves.
                                         Having guns on every lamppost would
                                         not work because a) lampposts are
                                         too far apart b) they are deadly
                                         c) they would be stolen d) their
                                         use could not be easily monitored.
                                         A plane flight is a contained
                                         environment with identified people.
                                         Honestly I did post the idea in jest,
                                         but I'm also interested in a serious
                                         treatment of it for argument's sake.
                                         In an environment where weapons are
                                         already introduced I do believe that
                                         the "armed society" principle is true.
                                         (And every society has weapons, even
                                         if it's martial artists or knife users
                                         or just large scary men with clubs.
                                         \_ So we're, as a nation, up at the
                                            top of violent crime rates etc
                                            because there... aren't enough
                                            weapons.  We just haven't reached
                                            the critical mass (no pun intended,
                                            seriously)?  Also, tasers aren't
                                            deadly?
                                            \_ They are "non lethal". As for
                                               crime, I think violent people
                                               are violent for reasons mostly
                                               unrelated to firearm
                                               availability.
                                         You can't depend on the police to
                                         protect you. Is this sad? Yeah but
                                         it's the way of the world. Guns are
                                         the most civilized form of combat.)
                                         \_ Alright, I'll play along and just
                                            attack the most obvious and least
                                            potentially controversial aspect.
                                            I fly very frequently, and I'd say
                                            that about 10% of the time the
                                            tray table is somehow broken.  This
                                            consists of a piece of plastic and
                                            a hinge, and it's still not robust
                                            enough for the beating stuff takes
                                            on an airplane.  What exciting
                                            failure modes will we find in the
                                            hundreds of poorly maintained tasers
                                            sitting on a typical plane?  How
                                            many dumbass passengers will think
                                            they're electric shavers and taser
                                            themselves in the face?  Or get
                                            drunk and taser themselves in the
                                            ass?  Look, I support the right
                                            of weapons-owners to own weapons,
                                            but I think it's equally important
                                            to support the right of non-weapons
                                            owners to not own weapons. Me?  I
                                            train hard in hand to hand combat
                                            six days a week and have a knife
                                            fighting background, so if I see
                                            a terrorist on the plane, I'll leap
                                            into the aisle and try to kill him
                                            immediately with his own boxcutter.
                                      \_ It's the motd.  Kick back, laugh,
                                         enjoy.  This is just a proxy for
                                         the standard gun rights non-debate.
                                   \_ Statistics.
                                      \_ Freedom typically comes with a price.
                                         But tell your argument to victims of
                                         shootings who could have prevented the
                                         shootings with a gun.  Look at the
                                         statistics that show that when
                                         criminals believe the people around
                                         them are armed, they're less likely to
                                         commit violent crime. -emarkp
                                         \_ yeah, if those Critical Mass
                                            bicyclists had been armed, the
                                            driver would have been less
                                            likely to ram into them.  They
                                            were forced to use their bikes
                                            to defend themselves!  Guns for
                                            all!  -tom
                                            \_ Actually, it was the cyclists
                                               attacking the vehicle.  The
                                               lesson is, when you go to SF, be
                                               sure to be armed. -emarkp
                                               \_ Right, I'm sure the cyclists
                                                  just spontaneously decided
                                                  to attack.  They're like
                                                  pit bulls that way.  -tom
                                                  \_ From what I read, yes they
                                                     are. -emarkp
                                                     \_ from what you read,
                                                        you mean, the article
                                                        above where it says
                                                        the driver ran into
                                                        a cyclist and then
                                                        kept trying to drive
                                                        through the pack? -tom
                                                        \_ You mean the poor
                                                           out of town woman
                                                           surrounded by bikes
                                                           trying to get away
                                                           and out of the flow
                                                           of bikers madly
                                                           dashing through the
                                                           city violating
                                                           every safety and
                                                           traffic law on
                                                           the books?  Yeah,
                                                           that one.
                                                           \_ Poor out of town
                                                              woman who ran
                                                              deliberately
                                                              ran into someone.
                                                              You forgot the
                                                              part where she
                                                              committed assault
                                                              with a deadly
                                                              weapon first.
                                                              \_ not first.
                                                                surrounded
                                                                hit her car
                                                                she moved
                                                                two get
                                                                out of
                                                                their way
                                                                \_ Horseshit.
                                                                   Critical
                                                                   Mass doesn't
                                                                   hit cars
                                                                   just for
                                                                   existing.
                                                                   -tom
                                         \_ Are you gonna pay for the taser
                                            training for every "air trafficker"
                                            out of your very own pocket?  That
                                            would be awesome.  My sister's been
                                            a real bitch lately, and I don't
                                            want to accidentally kill her.
                                         \_ please. don't bring facts into
                                            this.. let the sheeple liberals
                                            bend over and take it up the
                                            u know what.. they enjoy it
                                            anyway
                                            \_ What an insightful comment.
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

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Cache (7615 bytes)
www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67166
"It really is concerning considering that we're paying millions of dollars out of our budget to be secure in the airline industry," said passenger Mark Butler who has had two Army Swiss knives confiscated by screeners in the past. "Yet, we're not any safer than we were before 9/11, in my opinion." The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) screeners failed most of the covert tests because of human error, sources told 9NEWS. Alarms went off on the machines, but sources said screeners violated TSA standard operating procedures and did not hand-search suspicious luggage, wand, or pat down the undercover agents. "The good news is we have our own people probing and looking and examining the system," said Rep. Ed Perlmutter, a Democrat in the 7th congressional who sits on the House Homeland Security and transportation committees. After 9NEWS told Perlmutter about the undercover results, he requested a classified briefing from the TSA about the team. Four TSA and Homeland Security Department officials briefed the congressman last week. "The bottom line is, we've got to plug those holes," said Perlmutter. "We can't have those kinds of problems because we want to have people who fly across this nation be as safe as possible." In one test, sources told 9NEWS an agent taped an IED to her leg and told the screener it was a bandage from surgery. Even though alarms sounded on the walk-through metal detector, the agent was able to bluff her way past the screener. "If they miss something that's obvious, often times that could happen, we will pull them off the line and retrain them," said Security Director Earl Morris at TSA headquarters in Washington, DC "That's how we audit and keep track of which people are doing a better job than others and how we keep this whole process so that it really is one that's legitimate and factual and actually is effective." The TSA would not confirm the test results obtained by 9NEWS. The covert testers who were at DIA are part of the TSA's Red Team. The Red Team was formed by the Federal Aviation Administration after terrorists blew up Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 270 people. The Red Team tests about 100 airports nationwide every year, according to Morris. Since it re-started testing in 2003, the Red Team has investigated security at approximately 735 airports. The team tested DIA once during 2006 and on February 12 to 14, said Morris. The agents act and think like terrorists to find vulnerabilities in the aviation security system. The Red Team uses very expensive chemical simulates in the test devices that look, smell and taste like real explosives, except they do not explode. To the CTX bomb detection machines at DIA, they are real explosives, according to a former Red Team leader. Sources told 9NEWS the Red Team was able to sneak about 90 percent of simulated weapons past checkpoint screeners in Denver. In the baggage area, screeners caught one explosive device that was packed in a suitcase. However later, screeners in the baggage area missed a book bomb, according to sources. "There's very little substance to security," said former Red Team leader Bogdan Dzakovic. Dzakovic was a Red Team leader from 1995 until September 11, 2001. After the terrorist attacks, Dzakovic became a federally protected whistleblower and alleged that thousands of people died needlessly. He testified before the 9/11 Commission and the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the US that the Red Team "breached security with ridiculous ease up to 90 percent of the time," and said the FAA "knew how vulnerable aviation security was." Dzakovic, who is currently a TSA inspector, said security is no better today. The terrorists can pretty much do what they want when they want to do it," he said. "We have a very robust program of which we are very proud, in which we utilize testing at all of our airports every single day," said Morris. The security chief says he expects screeners to fail the Red Team tests because they are difficult. "We could put these tests together so that we have a 100 percent success rate every single time," said Morris. "Then, they wouldn't be challenging, they wouldn't be realistic and they really wouldn't be stretching the limits and the imagination of the Transportation Security Officer." Morris says the tests are designed to be tough so that officers can learn from their mistakes and successes. "It's a test but it's also a learning experience," said Morris. "It's a constant audit that we put on there to see where our employees are and where we need to enhance the weaknesses." Morris says other agents, not with the Red Team, test and train screeners every day at the nation's 450 airports and says screeners pass most of those tests. In those kinds of tests, he said Denver has done well in the past. However, tests done by the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General and the US Government Accountability Office in 2006 found widespread failures. According to the GAO, screeners at 15 airports missed 90 percent of the explosives and guns agents tried to sneak past checkpoints. Also, a Denver woman who carries a Taser for personal protection, told 9NEWS she carried it on board airplanes last year six times. Most test results, including results from the Red Team, are secret, classified as SSI or sensitive security information. Morris says they do not make them public because they could point out holes in the system. Our intent is not to educate the public on how we do tests and what are tests consist of. Our sole objective is to prevent those who have intent to do us harm from being able to successfully complete their mission." Sources who leaked the test results to 9Wants to Know say they were concerned about the failures and want security improved. Morris says the screeners were told about the failures and the problems were fixed. "They're out of line, it's not acceptable and it's not appropriate." Dzakovic, who testified that the FAA ordered the Red Team to "not write up our findings," said the TSA is also trying to hide its results. "The last thing TSA wants to do is look bad in front of congress and in front of the public, so rather than fix the problem, they'd rather just keep them quiet," said Dzakovic. Dzakovic says aviation security needs fundamental changes if it's going to improve. "If anything of value is to be achieved out of this latest round of testing in Denver, congressmen need to go into the internal mechanics of how TSA operates in order to really affect change," said Dzakovic. "Because if they don't, next year there will be another round of testing, get them same kind of results and it's just a matter of time before potentially thousands of more people get killed." While Morris said security can always get better, it's already excellent. "We understand that security is not perfect in every aspect but we understand that we go about trying to be perfect every single day and we are doing a tremendous job out there and the public should feel comfortable flying out today and quite frankly, they do," he said. Sources tell 9Wants to Know screeners failed the tests because they feel pressured to put passengers on planes quickly and say they are short-staffed. When the TSA took over screening at DIA in 2002, there were 1100 officers. However, there are only 750 today because Congress capped funding for employees. Perlmutter voted last week for a bill that gives more money for aviation security, but the President said he'll veto the bill because it includes time lines on ending the war in Iraq.