Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 46086
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2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

2007/3/24-27 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:46086 Activity:low
3/24    Whoa:
        http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/03/donald_knuth_wr.html
        http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/rice.html
        \_ Wow I can't believe an intellectual would write something like
           that. In fact he sounds just like my grandpa. It's obvious that
           the old fart's getting older and angrier. I guess everyone
           becomes like when they get old.
           \_ What is wrong with his letter? It is direct, accurate and
              to the point. Not elequent enough for a Lit prof to be sure
              to the point. Not eloquent enough for a Lit prof to be sure
              but we are talking a CS professor. I give him a solid A.
2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

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3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/03/donald_knuth_wr.html
When I knew you at Stanford I had the greatest admiration for your abilities and good sense. I hope you can pause to try to understand why this might be the case. Fundamentally I don't see how the government of my country has done anything whatsoever to address and correct the root causes of international terrorism. every action I can see seems almost designed to have the opposite effect --- as if orchestrated to maximize the finances of those who make armaments, by maximizing the number of people who now hate me personally for actions that I do not personally condone. How can I be a proud citizen of a country that unilaterally pulls out of widely accepted treaties, that refuses to accept a world court, that flouts fair trade with shameful policies regarding steel and agriculture, and that almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation? And worst of all, I find that my leaders, including you, are calling for war against a sovereign nation that we suspect to be corrupt, thereby (even if our suspicions are correct) undermining all precedents against unilateral action by other countries who might in future decide that our own policies are wrong. If we peremptorily strike country X, why shouldn't country X have a right to do the same to us, and to our children and grandchildren in future years? On my trips to Europe all I can do is hope that my friends there can help their governments try to make somebody in my own government act responsibly. Sincerely, Don Knuth PS This is the second time in my life that I have written a letter to a US government official. Permalink Comments Well, maybe he should think about writing the government more often than at its lowest points. If more people told the government exactly what they thought of it before it got to be lawless, maybe it wouldn't get to a lawless state in the first place. bleep | Mar 18, 2007 12:49:09 AM On the contrary to the above anonymous comments, it likely wouldn't have made any difference if Mr Knuth had written a hundred letters to our unrepresentative and virtually totalitarian government, the results would have likely been the same. Just look at all the demonstrations against the war in Iraq, yet the war goes on. Our government leaders learned long ago that the power of citizens to end actions by the US government is almost zero. We might as well be living in former Nazi, Germany or the Soviet Union or the former King of England. If the president of the US shot someone in plain daylight in the street in front of many witnesses, I wonder if he would even be arrested, let alone charged with a crime. After over two centuries of two or more political parties isn't it time for another Boston Tea Party? Everyone should remember, both political parties voted for almost all "police actions" of our country against other countries. Winfield J Abbe | Mar 18, 2007 6:29:09 AM Firstly, I'd like to express my appreciation for MrKnuth's intelligent and concise articulation of sentiments felt not only by an increasing number of Americans, but citizens of all Western nations. The Western leader, the US, has become an ambassador at large of of self-interest and unilaterism. As Westerners our leaders toe its line, and we toe theirs', our heads hanging in shame, our consciences just hanging. Secondly, I'd like to express my total lack of appreciation for Dignam and Bleep. Rationally speaking, I find them and their arguments at best imbecilic. Both their comments acknowledge a degree of wrong-doing by the US government, thus agreeing with MrKnuth, while simultaneously shifting the blame to him thus now disagreeing with MrKnuth, rendering him, the denunciator, the criminal. That's comparable to inculpating the witness for the crime rather than the perpetrator. Bleep, you claim had he written to Washington more often, this whole mess as you put would have been averted. How many letters would have been necessary in your opinion? Enough to weigh down the aircraft carriers currently on Iran's coast? Or simply enough build a wall of pressed paper around Iraq? Why do some have so much difficulty accepting that their own governments can perpetrate repugnant and illegal actions? Being the well-intentioned citizen of an ill-intentioned government does not render you ill-intentioned. Why then, defend the government by condemning the very people who speak of its crimes, especially if those crimes are so blatantly obvious. I remind Bleep and Dignam that there being no weapons of mass destructions found in Iraq, and supposed intelligence having been proven disastrously mistaken, in no way is deterring the US from mounting another preventive war, against Iran. I add that for the second Iraq war, again launched on an alleged pretext proven grossly erroneous, no apology was ever emitted. Even the very tiny minimum of diplomatic curtousy was never rendered. because the US concentrated forces around Iraq before invading it. Would you concentrate your forces in attainable areas if you suspected your enemy had the potential capacity to obliterate them? That would be real war, and even war-mongers don't want that. But I exhale and digress and stick to the subject of MrKnuth rather than US military/Corporation action, albeit they are here intertwined. even enthusiastic proponents of the war can't disagree with this reality. Fact is no weapons were found and the search called off. Hypothetically, were the present or a later Iraqi government to subpoena the US to World Court for terrorism, unlawful use of force, murder and doubtless more criminal counts, would the US, defender of human rights and justice, even attend the hearings, let along accept a verdict condemning it of a crime it tacitly already avows? Or would it pull another Sandinista on the world and refuse World Court jurisdiction as it did to Nicaragua in 1986? Abbas Raza | Mar 18, 2007 10:55:20 PM Well, taking a good look around, reformist politics doesn't seem effective. Earth is in a Mass Extinction (last one was 65 million years ago), global temperatures are rising, wealth is being transfered up and being concentrated, and the Second law of Thermodynamics is about to have the last word-- Sending a letter to Condi seems futile-- Maybe we should take Lenin's advice and hang the capitalists after they sell us the rope to do it with-- Reformist action seems futile. Dave | Mar 20, 2007 1:58:03 AM Yes, reformist action is futile, but the only thing more futile is trying to foment a revolution under the present circumstances, leaving entirely aside the question of the morality of revolution. Even after a serious movement developed against the Vietnam War, including strong rebellion within the military and mass noncooperation with the draft, it took years to get that war stopped, and basically the US forces only withdrew because their situation became hopeless. the Bush Administration will probably start withdrawal only when the situation on the ground forces them to. And before then they may have decided to widen the war to Iran, and what will happen then? The best thing we can do, I think, is to keep explaining to the public what is wrong with Bush's policies and try to build a long-lasting memory of the present disaster in the country. After all, this disaster happened because too many people forgot what a disaster Vietnam was, and bought the line that "we could have won if only we hadn't been stabbed in the back by the peaceniks." Basically, patriotism is a very powerful emotion in almost all countries in the world, and as long as it is not replaced by internationalism, wars will start over and over. And once they start, it's damned hard to stop them until they grind to a halt on their own. Whether you live in a democracy or not, stopping a war in mid-course is about the most difficult political task there is, so I'm not at all surprised that, even after the Democrats' victory last November, they are going at it so slowly. JonJ | Mar 20, 2007 5:15:47 PM Dave: I think you're right about Bleep, but short of rebounding the discussion to him, it takes nothing away from my argument concerning thinkers like Dignam. "I couldn't tear myself away ...
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www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/rice.html
When I knew you at Stanford I had the greatest admiration for your abilities and good sense. I hope you can pause to try to understand why this might be the case. Fundamentally I don't see how the government of my country has done anything whatsoever to address and correct the root causes of international terrorism. every action I can see seems almost designed to have the opposite effect --- as if orchestrated to maximize the finances of those who make armaments, by maximizing the number of people who now hate me personally for actions that I do not personally condone. How can I be a proud citizen of a country that unilaterally pulls out of widely accepted treaties, that refuses to accept a world court, that flouts fair trade with shameful policies regarding steel and agriculture, and that almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation? And worst of all, I find that my leaders, including you, are calling for war against a sovereign nation that we suspect to be corrupt, thereby (even if our suspicions are correct) undermining all precedents against unilateral action by other countries who might in future decide that our own policies are wrong. If we peremptorily strike country X, why shouldn't country X have a right to do the same to us, and to our children and grandchildren in future years? On my trips to Europe all I can do is hope that my friends there can help their governments try to make somebody in my own government act responsibly. Sincerely, Don Knuth PS This is the second time in my life that I have written a letter to a US government official.