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| 11/22 |
| 2007/3/13-17 [Reference/History, Reference/History/WW2] UID:45947 Activity:kinda low |
3/13 A historical perspective on the '300':
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/190493
\_ Update - The Mercury News also had a nice graphic re the
difference between the movie and reality:
\_ Update - The Mercury News had a nice graphic yesterday
re the difference between the movie and reality:
link:preview.tinyurl.com/24f6p4 (bayareanewsgroup.com) [PDF]
NOTE: I just think the differences are interesting; I
don't mean to imply that the movie/comic was bad b/c it
is not historical accurate.
Those interested in the history might want to netflix/buy
the PBS series "The Greeks: Crucible of Civilization":
http://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/htmlver/index.html
\_ Miller and fans on the comic:
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3160167.html
\- i thought it was kinda funny they bothered to get some details
like the lambda on the spartan sheilds [for Lakedaimon, which
is also what is used instad of Sparta in the famous couplet
by Symonides], as well some matters with the long spear and
the short sword, the storm that destroyed part of the fleet
[although there some chronology and location issues there],
but they put them in those creepy black briefs instead of armor.
Was that a decision to appeal to women and gaylords or what?
BTW, was the dood who loses an eye and then appears at the end
at the Battle of Plataea supposed to be Pausanias or just
some random? I also thought Leonidas' Scottish accent was
hilarious. I was hoping Sean Connery would have made a cameo...
maybe as Darius ... or as Xerxes ... they could have had a
Highlander-style Immortal showdown. The also basically turned
Ephialtes into Gollum ... he was a local, not a Spartan, and
I cannot recall any mention that he was a hunchback. I was
also disappointed with the famous well-scene.
\_ http://leonidasaddressescongress.ytmnd.com
http://thisisspartaaa.ytmnd.com
\- except in sparta, if you didnt have enough $$$,
you lost your "right" to "hold the line" in battle,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiates#Decline_of_the_Spartiate_class
where as in the us today, hardly any reasonably welloff
people are on the battle line. well i guess exept for
their slaves they dragged into battle and used for
fodder ... oh maybe we do have something in common with
the Lakedaimonians.
\_ The movie is an adaptation of the comic book 300, not the
historical incident as recorded by Herodotus or Thucydides.
It is a very faithful adaptation of the comic, in much the
same way that Sin City was faithful. For the most part, it's
an excercise in style. Miller's a fascinating study in
both good and bad research, liberal and libertarian and
even conservative values, and the occasional good story.
Comparing 300 to the actual history is much like comparing
Hamlet to actual Danish history (with apologies to Mr.
Shakespeare re: comparing 300 to Hamlet). --erikred
\- you're making a rather obvious point. it's still an
interesting exercise to look at what is and what is
not accurate. just like it is reasonable to tell
somebody "there really is an elsinore (kronborg)
castle." also, in my opinion, there is a "yeah whatever"
type of hollywood license [like suggesting william
wallace slept with the queen of england ... something
nobody watching braveheart probably really believed],
and sort of "irresponsible revisionism" [like suggesting
the americans did the heavy lifting in breaking the
enigma cipher ... didnt u-571 suggest some such thing?].
this movie was so trivial, comments like "the spartans
championed freedom and reason against the despotic,
decadent persians, while the atheians didnt do anything
because they were busily engaged in juvenile gaylordism"
are more risble ["and we laughed and laughed"] than
offensive ... unless maybe you are an athenian or
iranian. how many people even realized that WAS
a lambda on the shield, and not just a chevron or
some other design.
\_ I'm pointing out that the lack of armor is due to there
not being armor on the characters in Miller's comic.
Ditto for elements of grotesquery. I enjoy the pointing
out of historical deviations as much as the next geek,
but I thought I'd point out that your quibbles are with
the comic the movie is based on, not some sort of
historical recreation on the part of the movie. |
| www.thestar.com/printArticle/190493 This is madness An expert assesses the gruesome new epic March 11, 2007 The battle of Thermopylae was real, but how real is 300? Ephraim Lytle, assistant professor of hellenistic history at the University of Toronto, has seen the movie and offers his view. Thus I see no reason to quibble over the absence in 300 of breastplates or modest thigh-length tunics. I can see the graphic necessity of sculpted stomachs and three hundred Spartan-sized packages bulging in spandex thongs. On the other hand, the ways in which 300 selectively idealizes Spartan society are problematic, even disturbing. We know little of King Leonidas, so creating a fictitious backstory for him is understandable. Spartan children were, indeed, taken from their mothers and given a martial education called the agoge. They were indeed toughened by beatings and dispatched into the countryside, forced to walk shoeless in winter and sleep uncovered on the ground. And had Leonidas undergone the agoge, he would have come of age not by slaying a wolf, but by murdering unarmed helots in a rite known as the Crypteia. These helots were the Greeks indigenous to Lakonia and Messenia, reduced to slavery by the tiny fraction of the population enjoying Spartan "freedom." By living off estates worked by helots, the Spartans could afford to be professional soldiers, although really they had no choice: securing a brutal apartheid state is a full-time job, to which end the Ephors were required to ritually declare war on the helots. Elected annually, the five Ephors were Sparta's highest officials, their powers checking those of the dual kings. There is no evidence they opposed Leonidas' campaign, despite 300's subplot of Leonidas pursuing an illegal war to serve a higher good. For adolescents ready to graduate from the graphic novel to Ayn Rand, or vice-versa, the historical Leonidas would never suffice. And in the interests of portentous contrasts between good and evil, 300's Ephors are not only lecherous and corrupt, but also geriatric lepers. Ephialtes, who betrays the Greeks, is likewise changed from a local Malian of sound body into a Spartan outcast, a grotesquely disfigured troll who by Spartan custom should have been left exposed as an infant to die. Leonidas points out that his hunched back means Ephialtes cannot lift his shield high enough to fight in the phalanx. This is a transparent defence of Spartan eugenics, and laughably convenient given that infanticide could as easily have been precipitated by an ill-omened birthmark. Xerxes is eight feet tall, clad chiefly in body piercings and garishly made up, but not disfigured. No need - it is strongly implied Xerxes is homosexual which, in the moral universe of 300, qualifies him for special freakhood. This is ironic given that pederasty was an obligatory part of a Spartan's education. This was a frequent target of Athenian comedy, wherein the verb "to Spartanize" meant "to bugger." This touches on 300's most noteworthy abuse of history: the Persians are turned into monsters, but the non-Spartan Greeks are simply all too human. According to Herodotus, Leonidas led an army of perhaps 7,000 Greeks. These Greeks took turns rotating to the front of the phalanx stationed at Thermoplyae where, fighting in disciplined hoplite fashion, they held the narrow pass for two days. In 300 the fighting is not in the hoplite fashion, and the Spartans do all of it, except for a brief interlude in which Leonidas allows a handful of untrained Greeks to taste the action, and they make a hash of it. When it becomes apparent they are surrounded, this contingent flees. In Herodotus' time there were various accounts of what transpired, but we know 700 hoplites from Thespiae remained, fighting beside the Spartans, they, too, dying to the last man. No mention is made in 300 of the fact that at the same time a vastly outnumbered fleet led by Athenians was holding off the Persians in the straits adjacent to Thermopylae, or that Athenians would soon save all of Greece by destroying the Persian fleet at Salamis. This would wreck 300's vision, in which Greek ideals are selectively embodied in their only worthy champions, the Spartans. This moral universe would have appeared as bizarre to ancient Greeks as it does to modern historians. Most Greeks would have traded their homes in Athens for hovels in Sparta about as willingly as I would trade my apartment in Toronto for a condo in Pyongyang. |
| www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/htmlver/index.html FRAME: pbs_nav FRAME: greeks |
| community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3160167.html Next Entry Frank Miller: "boy-lovers" and ELEKTRA LIVES AGAIN I come to defend Frank Miller. The scans I bear could certainly reinforce Miller hatred just as much as it could redeem him in the eyes of some (and reaffirm his status as a master in the eyes of others). Many, including one reader who wrote a letter to Miller, complained that this was grossly inaccurate and blatantly homophobic on Miller's part; that in an effort to show the Spartans as "manly man's men," Miller wrote a cheap shot that ignored the fact that the Spartans were just as favorable of homosexuality as those "boy-lovers" the Athenians. This issue came up with recent scans of said letter, and some people commented that Miller was, and I quote, "a fucking moron." I don't think Miller had neither the eloquence nor the inclination to defend himself there, but the same can't be said for some of his other readers. In the first issue of SIN CITY: HELL AND BACK, the letters column was devoted entirely to responses to the letter of complaint and a general discussion of Greek sexuality. I have taken the liberty of posting those letters here, in the hopes of settling the question once and for all with a bit of reasoned discussion. Now, regardless of your final verdict on the "boy-lovers" issue, I'm a firm believer in separating an artist from their art. Even if that art went severaly downhill over the past several years. Personally, I think the artistic talents of Frank Miller (and Lynn Varley, his colorist/wife) peaked with the original graphic novel, ELEKTRA LIVES AGAIN. No, the story is an incomprehensible mess (Is it a dream? I cannot tell you how much I regret having a cheap scanner. Hell, even a high-quality scanner cannot accurately depict just how absolutely gorgeous this art is. No, it has to be seen in person, read in the large format on the high quality paper stock. Varley's colors have never been better, and what my scanner does to those colors is an absolute crime. But in the years to come, his art would become sloppier, more deranged, grotesque, and just plain crappy. Even Varley changed her style to computer coloring, which has been utterly, absolutely hideous. The last time they mutually had a real high point was 300, but I think ELEKTRA LIVES AGAIN blows that out of the water. Another note: I don't know about you guys, but I hate pictures uploaded to LJ's image server. I find it too tedious having to click twice just to have a page upload that's too frickin' huge for my computer screen. That said, there was no way I could photobucket these pics and keep whatever integrity my scanner has left them. I pray you forgive me and that viewing these won't be too inconvenient. By this point, you might be completely confused and think that context would help better explain this. Let me assure you right now, I think reading it like this makes MORE sense. This comic is like an entire BOOK of "context is for the weak." Unless Bullseye got his head reattached along with adamantium bones or something. But still, I think this is some of my favorite comic art. And whether you agree or not, I beg you to flip through it and see for yourself. Between this, DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN and BATMAN: YEAR ONE, I will always treasure and love the Frank Miller that was. Link) From what I understand, homosexuality was something that you did when you were young in Sparta but left behind you as you grew up and left the battle school. In Athens it was something you could do for as long as you wanted. There aren't many primary sources that have been translated and I don't read Ancient Greek. I am not talking about his art when I hate Miller, I've seen better for sure and I've seen worse. I hate his story style, because he's a misogynistic homophobic pig, who frankly isn't that good of a writer to begin with. And his ignorance about the difference between sexuality during the ancient greek age (and comparatively warrior situations) seems like he's just scared and should have just left it out all together. I'd rather people keep up the "cousin" act (ala Patroclus) than apply modern day "values" towards a different culture. Link) I think Miller the Writer/Artist is an extremely talented and awesome man. I think Miller the *person* is a homophobic, misogynistic twit. I'll certainly be seeing 300 when it opens Down Under... Link) Apropos of nothing, I think Lynn Varley is a fantastic colorist who deserves more acknowledgment and praise than she gets. I'm sure that's not her husband's fault or anything - the art "support team" always gets shafted a bit where recognition is concerned, and colorists even more than inkers (I'm guessing because many inkers are pencillers, and vice versa, but pencilling and coloring rarely overlap). Link) Funny, G4 is showing their Frank Miller Icons episode right now. His art here has a lot of weird quirks (Matt crouching on the gravestone could be tagged 'skeletons don't work like that'), but I definitely respond to what he's trying here. I still have sentimental fondness for Ronin, with all its undigested influences. It's a kid in his twenties running hard and fast with a concept. Am I the only one who found the artwork in 300 kinda sloppy along the same lines as the later Sin City books? Link) I dont understand how Frank Miller keeps getting shit for that one line in 300-first off, the CHARACTER said it,not him-also, Leonitis is clearly fucking nuts. Link) I don't know that I'll ever understand the amount of Ire that seems to be constantly leveled at Frank Miller. While I wasn't 100% fond of the changes made for the big screen adaption of 300, they didn't ruin the experience for me in the slightest. I left that theater much the same way I left it after seeing Snakes on a Plane, with a feeling of satisfaction at pornography well done. Link) Ok, I've read several comics in the past, and I can assure you it's rather easy to tell whether an artist is using the comic as a soapbox or not (specially when it comes to webcomics). Here are some of the symptoms: - Complete disregard of character development, as X character starts ranting about something completely out of place. Also known as "artist confusing philosophy with science". " excuse from the artist every time he/she's being confronted on a topic. With that said, I honestly think there's nothing homophobic from Frank Miller's "boy-lovers" crack, as he was merely trying to add emphasis to the character, regardless of how innacurate it is to the actual story (Anyone who at least did their homework knows that the 300 Spartan fought about 10,000 soldiers, not the million that 300 despicts). However, Miller shouldn't be allowed to answer his own fan mail (at least, not without his editor proof reading it), because he sure loves to stick his foot in his mouth... Link) Spartans wend they were in their teens were paired up with a vet. who will trained them and often lead to a homosexual relationship which streghten the bound between warroirs. com/userna me/pic/00029w31/s320x240" alt="" height="240" width="160" border="0" /></a> and deleting the red portion of the tag. Point the third: I've been reading too much regency romance (yes, I know I should be reading King :P) and I would like to apologise in advance if my self-posessed prose is misconstrued as airs of self-importance. Link) I don't feel that that crack, in specific, is bad, nor do I think the avoidance of man-loving in the Spartan army is bad (although unfortunate for us slashers). I think Frank Miller did a decently accurate job of depicting the Spartan culture and ideals. I think 300 the movie was homophobic, imperialistic, Eurocentric, and racist, not because it depicted these ideals but because it glorified them. It was not a glorious culture of shiny joy, it was a battle society that mostly propagated more battles, but did manage to protect the cultural contributions of icky decadent Athens. The 300 would have been an actually good movie, and comic book, if he had treated the Spartans with more of a journalist's eye. Making Xerxes basically Prince in a loincloth and his troops the Yellow (spotted with Black) Menace (complete with gratuitous deformation), that wa... |
| leonidasaddressescongress.ytmnd.com author: NorthAmericanDangerDuo - site profile vote: image: see description sound: see description keywords: 300tmnd 300 congress Click here to go back to YTMNDcom |
| thisisspartaaa.ytmnd.com author: NorthAmericanDangerDuo - site profile vote: image: 300 trailer plus many edits sound: same, plus more edits keywords: 300 sparta 300tmnd Click here to go back to YTMNDcom |
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiates#Decline_of_the_Spartiate_class edit Structure of Spartan society Spartan society in the classical period was rigidly divided into several castes, each with assigned duties and privileges. The smallest of these, with the most power and freedom, was the Spartiate elite. Spartiates were exempt from manual labor, and controlled the government of the state. Spartiate men were expected to prepare constantly for military conflict. Perioikoi, literally "dwellers around," inhabitants of outlying towns who carried out most of the trade and commerce of the city, since Spartiates were forbidden to engage in commercial activity. helots, enslaved populations tied to the land and owned by the Spartan state. In the late 4th century and later, a new class, the neodamodeis (lit. inferiors) men who were probably, although not certainly, Spartiates who had lost social rank. It is impossible to determine whether Lycurgus was an actual historical figure. It is clear, however, that at some point in the late Archaic period the model of Spartan society was changed from a monarchical system to an oligarchy with an elite warrior class. This acquisition of a large piece of territory and a large conquered population seems to have both provided the basis for the system of helotage and required the existence of a large military force to keep the potentially rebellious Messenians under control. The Spartiates thus became a permanently armed master class, living off the labor of the helots and preventing rebellion through constant vigilance. For over 150 years, Sparta became the dominant land power of Greece, with the Spartiate hoplites serving as the core of its army. To maintain the social system of the city, it was necessary to have a force ready to oppose any uprising of the helots (an event which occurred several times in the classical period). To ensure their military readiness, Spartiate youths were removed from their families and put in constant military training from the age of seven onwards. From that age until they became too old to fight, they would live in their barracks, visiting their families (and later, their wives) only when they could sneak out. Spartiate women, as well, were expected to remain athletically fit, since the Spartans believed that strong and healthy parents would produce strong and healthy children. Tyrtaeus, who praised men who fall in battle and heaped scorn on those who fled. Each Spartiate male was assigned a plot of land, with the helots that worked it. This was the source of his income, since he performed no labor or commerce himself. The primary use of this income was to pay the dues of the communal mess halls to which all Spartiates were required to belong. Any Spartiate who was unable to pay these dues was demoted from the class. krypteia, a sort of secret police which, through measures such as assassination and kidnapping, sought to prevent rebellion among the helots. The Spartan constitution prescribed a system of education and living for Spartiates that was intended to promote bravery. Commercial activity, on the other hand, was strictly forbidden, and for most of its history Sparta had no coinage. Almost all luxuries were also forbidden, since it was believed that they undermined the discipline and training that would be needed for battle. Spartan men were not allowed to marry until late in life, and even then had to see their wives in secrecy. It is from the rigidly ascetic lifestyle that Spartiates led to satisfy these requirements that we obtain our present day word "Spartan," meaning ascetic. edit Decline of the Spartiate class In the late 5th and early 4th century, the Spartiate class gradually declined, along with Spartan military prowess. First was attrition through the increasingly frequent wars that Sparta found itself embroiled in from the mid 5th century on. Since Spartiates were required to marry late, birth rates were low, and it was difficult to replace losses from the class. To exacerbate this problem, it was possible to be demoted from Spartiate status for a number of reasons; cowardice in battle was a common one, as was inability to pay for membership in the common mess. Inability to pay became an increasingly severe problem as commercial activity began to develop in Sparta, since some Spartiates would sell the land from which they were supposed to draw their earnings. Since the constitution included no provisions for promotion to Spartiate status, the number of Spartiates gradually dwindled as the classical period wore on. By the mid 4th century, the number of Spartiates had been critically reduced, although Sparta continued to hold sway over much of Greece. The Spartan state never recovered its former power, and the Spartan army, by the later 3rd century, was not particularly superior to other hoplite armies in Greece. |